Speaker 1: Welcome to Talk he Ethan, the show where we take
Speaker 1: your calls and explore belief with curiosity and courage. I'm
Speaker 1: Christy Powell, and today I want to begin with something
Speaker 1: that's been weighing heavy on my mind, not just as
Speaker 1: a former believer, not just as a therapist, and not
Speaker 1: just as a Texan, but as a citizen of this
Speaker 1: complicated country we call home. It's no secret that American
Speaker 1: identity and Christianity have long been tangled together, like roots
Speaker 1: in dry soil. You can't really dig into one without
Speaker 1: pulling up clumps of the other. This nation was founded,
Speaker 1: at least in part on religious idealism, but let's be honest,
Speaker 1: it was also founded on stolen land, on the backs
Speaker 1: of enslaved people, and with a version of Christian faith
Speaker 1: that comforted the powerful while quieting the oppressed. And those
Speaker 1: histories aren't parallel, they're intertwined. We've all heard the phrase
Speaker 1: Christian nation tossed out like a compliment, like a badge
Speaker 1: of honor, But what does that really mean? What kind
Speaker 1: of Christianity are we talking about? The gentle, justice driven
Speaker 1: Jesus of the Sermon of the mount or the more
Speaker 1: militarized flag draped messiah of Fox News and political rallies.
Speaker 1: Because the Christianity that so often gets wrapped in red,
Speaker 1: white and blue isn't about loving your neighbor. It's about
Speaker 1: controlling them. It's about enforcing hierarchy, patriarchal, racial, economic through
Speaker 1: spiritual authority. It tells us that God anointed this nation,
Speaker 1: that white forefathers were divinely guided, and that any challenge
Speaker 1: to this story is rebellion against the sacred. That idea
Speaker 1: is not just nationalism. That is white Christian nationalism, a
Speaker 1: belief system that says America belongs to white Christians and
Speaker 1: must be ruled accordingly. And it's not fringe. It shows
Speaker 1: up in our laws, in our school boards, and our courtrooms.
Speaker 1: It showed up in the chants and crosses carried on
Speaker 1: January sixth, and it shows up every time someone says
Speaker 1: real Americans while quietly meaning straight white conservative Christians. Whatever
Speaker 1: my issues with Christianity, I am not here to bash Christians.
Speaker 1: I know there are people of faith doing the hard
Speaker 1: work of justice and compassion. But if we're going to
Speaker 1: have honest conversations on this show and challenge ideas that
Speaker 1: hurt people, we need to call this what it is,
Speaker 1: a toxic supremacist ideology hiding behind rhinestone crosses and cross
Speaker 1: stitch scripture. This isn't just a theological disagreement. It's a
Speaker 1: human rights issue. When religion is used to justify control,
Speaker 1: to silence descent, to erase queer lives, to marginalize immigrants,
Speaker 1: or to elevate one race and one worldview above all others,
Speaker 1: that's not faith. It's oppression. And if your God needs
Speaker 1: nationalism and racism to stay in power, maybe it's time
Speaker 1: to rethink who or what you are really worshiping. So
Speaker 1: let's talk about it. If you've seen this fusion of
Speaker 1: faith and power up close, I want to hear your story.
Speaker 1: If you're trying to untangle your own beliefs from the
Speaker 1: myths you're raised on, let's do that together, because turns
Speaker 1: out the truth actually matters, and so do you. So
Speaker 1: give us a call because the show is coming right now. Okay, well,
Speaker 1: welcome everybody. Today is July sixth, twenty twenty five. I'm
Speaker 1: your host, Christy Powell, and with me today is Sophia Spina.
Speaker 1: I want to start by saying that we are already
Speaker 1: sending love rings to those affected by massive flooding here
Speaker 1: in the Austin area. Fifty nine confirmed dead and twenty
Speaker 1: seven girls from Camp Mystic still unaccounted for at last check.
Speaker 1: Our thoughts are certainly still with them. If you'd like
Speaker 1: to be part of the solution, you can visit Bitley
Speaker 1: Slash Austin Flood Fund to contribute to the five oh
Speaker 1: one c three nonprofit Kerr County Flood Relief Fund set
Speaker 1: up by the Community Foundation of the Texas Hill Country
Speaker 1: and put your secular humanism to good work. Sophia, how
Speaker 1: did y'all hold up during this recent weather?
Speaker 2: You know, we stayed home. We were under the orders
Speaker 2: to say, like, don't travel anywhere unless you're leaving an
Speaker 2: area of evacuation. We are quite close to a river
Speaker 2: that did swallow a lot. We're up a hill, so
Speaker 2: a lot of our friends and neighbors, you know, are
Speaker 2: still in at least dicey situations. Yeah, it's just kind
Speaker 2: of mind boggling to think about how suddenly this changed. Sure, yeah,
Speaker 2: so it was. You know, for us, I'm extremely thankful
Speaker 2: that we stayed home with our toddler and some meltdowns
Speaker 2: on his part were the worst it really got. But
Speaker 2: it's a very difficult storm.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, we fair to just find we were already
Speaker 1: planning on kind of holding up for the weekend, not
Speaker 1: feeling especially patriotic this year, and enjoying the extra time
Speaker 1: at home. But it's definitely been very upsetting watching the news,
Speaker 1: particularly the news coming out of this small summer camp.
Speaker 1: And yeah, we're definitely sending out our lover rings. I
Speaker 1: want to say again that that url is bit dot
Speaker 1: lee slash Austin Flood Fund to contribute to the Kirk
Speaker 1: County Flood Relief Fund. We really hope that you will
Speaker 1: put your humanism into action and help us out.
Speaker 3: All right.
Speaker 1: Well, with that, I'll remind everybody that this is Talk Heathen,
Speaker 1: a production of the Atheist Community of Austin. We are
Speaker 1: a five oh one C three nonprofit organization that is
Speaker 1: dedicated to the promotion of atheism, critical thinking, secular humanism,
Speaker 1: and the separation of religion and government. We are a
Speaker 1: live call in show and we have open lines, so
Speaker 1: get your calls in at five one two nine nine
Speaker 1: two four to two or from your computer at tiny
Speaker 1: dot c c slash call t H Sophia. We're gonna
Speaker 1: bring in Richard here in just a moment to do
Speaker 1: our Question of the Week segment. But I'm curious to
Speaker 1: know who are you excited to talk to today.
Speaker 2: I am excited to talk to people, particularly you know,
Speaker 2: as you mentioned, it was fourth of July, it's a
Speaker 2: patriotic holiday, which is complicated for a lot of people.
Speaker 2: I myself, this might surprise folks, but I have always
Speaker 2: described myself as a patriotic American, and I think a
Speaker 2: lot of folks don't like that, or find that to
Speaker 2: be strange to them, or don't like the fact that
Speaker 2: I feel like I deserve to be here too. So
Speaker 2: I want to talk with people who, you know, who
Speaker 2: actually who maybe want to discuss that a little bit.
Speaker 1: But yeah, no, well we'll dive into it. I'll co
Speaker 1: sign that as maybe a vaguely disaffected, middle aged patriotic American.
Speaker 1: But I'm interested to hear your thoughts. I'm interested to
Speaker 1: hear from the audience. And with that, let's get to
Speaker 1: our Question of the Week segment and bring Richard in.
Speaker 3: It's time for our Question of the Week session. I've
Speaker 3: just realized that I'm repping. I did not do this
Speaker 3: on purpose.
Speaker 1: The merchants just in the rotation is part of daily life.
Speaker 1: That's what we like to see.
Speaker 3: Yeah, completely by accident as well.
Speaker 4: I didn't even realize until I look down and saw
Speaker 4: the Coteland and then thought, oh my, I'm wearing the
Speaker 4: shirt as well. So it's sign for our toki a
Speaker 4: new segments where we get into the questions of the week.
Speaker 4: And last week we asked you Jesus last words wrong
Speaker 4: answers only, and here are our top three answers. Number three,
Speaker 4: no God required, Jesus last words, don't you know who?
Speaker 3: My dad?
Speaker 2: Is?
Speaker 3: Pretty standard one there, guys, Yeah.
Speaker 1: My dad unless your dad is the devil, in which
Speaker 1: case he won't bother.
Speaker 5: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't get it.
Speaker 3: Unless, yeah, your dad whispering into you in the desert.
Speaker 3: That's a bit weird, isn't it Okay? Numbers number two
Speaker 3: is Miranda Reinsburg Jesus last words, Hey, remember supper last
Speaker 3: night when I was talking about the bread and wine,
Speaker 3: got interrupted before I could tell you all about the yogurt.
Speaker 3: Why are you stabbing me?
Speaker 1: It's really it's a one x play. I love it.
Speaker 3: And the number one is Chuck gad Or Jesus last
Speaker 3: words were you're rotten? Kids? Bring back that shroud all
Speaker 3: the way through the centuries, stole it and got it
Speaker 3: into France in the eleventh century, and hid it all
Speaker 3: that time in between. Can't believe it. So the problem
Speaker 3: for this week of the week for next week is
Speaker 3: wrong answers only Jesus blank for your sins and your
Speaker 3: best answer below the video and the comments, and next
Speaker 3: week we will reveal the top three answers. So Jesus,
Speaker 3: you too, I'm going to go with Christy first. Wrong
Speaker 3: answers only Jesus blank for your sins is.
Speaker 1: The obvious answer. But Jesus sacrificed himself to himself to
Speaker 1: appease himself for your so called sins.
Speaker 3: Yeah standard, Yeah, Sophia.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, I'm thinking about like a lot of the
Speaker 2: modern online Christian content I was seeing lately. So my
Speaker 2: brain says, Jesus TikTok for your sins.
Speaker 3: That is very appropriate. I've spent I've still spend a
Speaker 3: lot of time over there, and wow, the TikTok crowd
Speaker 3: is something else. Yeah, great answers from both of you,
Speaker 3: and I want to see your answers. You who watched
Speaker 3: the show, so in the comment section below the video.
Speaker 3: I had great trouble saying that last week has just
Speaker 3: slipped right off the tongue today. In the comment section
Speaker 3: below the video, give us your answers. I'm going enjoy
Speaker 3: the show. It's gonna be great. I will see you
Speaker 3: all later, all right, Richard.
Speaker 1: We'll see you at the end of the show. For now,
Speaker 1: let's go and pull up the crew camp so we
Speaker 1: can thank everybody who helps us to put this show together,
Speaker 1: who you know scrambled so quickly to give us access
Speaker 1: to that relief fund and make sure that everything is
Speaker 1: up and running despite the weather. Thank you guys so
Speaker 1: much for all your hard work. All right, Sophia, you
Speaker 1: ready to jump into our first call?
Speaker 3: Yeah, do it.
Speaker 1: Let's talk to Gohan here in Texas. Go in. What's
Speaker 1: on your mind?
Speaker 6: Year? All right, how are you guys doing well?
Speaker 1: No, all right, under circumstances, what's on your mind?
Speaker 6: Well, I just want to say I forgot you guys
Speaker 6: live in Austin, So I'm sorry for either you guys
Speaker 6: or anyone you know who's going through So yeah.
Speaker 1: Very much aspreciate hanging we got for us today.
Speaker 6: Really, just I want to discuss abortion. Christy. I've called
Speaker 6: I think twice before and spoke to you about this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I do remember a particularly bizarre hypothetical we
Speaker 1: got into a while back about a hypothetical woman trapped
Speaker 1: in a cabin with a police officer and a baby
Speaker 1: that wasn't her own, and whether she should be obligated
Speaker 1: to breastfeed that baby. We don't have to rehash all
Speaker 1: that now, but I do remember speaking to you in
Speaker 1: some of the interesting places that we got Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: but but no, what what did you want to ask today?
Speaker 1: How should we frame all this?
Speaker 6: Well, first off, that's a great memory. I had to
Speaker 6: do my homework cross. I actually rewatched the videos where
Speaker 6: I spoke to you guys before, Otherwise I would not
Speaker 6: have remembered it. But you got it like spot on.
Speaker 6: It's a very job. But if I could just really
Speaker 6: quick start, are you guys fans of dad jokes? It
Speaker 6: does apply to abortion?
Speaker 3: That is a.
Speaker 1: Cat if I've ever heard one.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm happy to give it a go. You know,
Speaker 2: I trust your discussions. I've never a discussed I've never
Speaker 2: meat you before, but we'll go with it.
Speaker 6: No worries. This one definitely like is a kind of
Speaker 6: a pro life joke, but here it is dad and
Speaker 6: a son are having a conversation. The dad says, son,
Speaker 6: did you know an acorn as a tree? The son
Speaker 6: says really, The dad says in a nutshell yes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, fair enough. So is this an issue of personhood?
Speaker 1: Of that question of like what is a fetus? What
Speaker 1: is an embryo?
Speaker 6: Yeah, so that's definitely a question involving personhood. When I
Speaker 6: have these discussions on abortion, I like to usually skip
Speaker 6: personhood and just go state straight to Bobby any since
Speaker 6: most pro abortion people would say, even if the fat
Speaker 6: is a person, it still doesn't deserve extra rights, So
Speaker 6: I usually just get personal and just goes straight to
Speaker 6: Bob Yet.
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, so what's the point of contention here?
Speaker 7: Okay, So the thing I want to get into is
Speaker 7: differences between organ donation, like forced organization, and difference between
Speaker 7: that and abortion or organ donation.
Speaker 6: If I refuse to give my organ to some child,
Speaker 6: even if it's my child who is like having a
Speaker 6: heart attack or a bad liver or a bad uni,
Speaker 6: if I refuse to give that to them, they don't
Speaker 6: die because I refuse to give it to them. They
Speaker 6: die because they have a bad kidney or a bad
Speaker 6: liver or bad heart x y Z.
Speaker 1: But sure, And I don't want to be distracting or inflammatory,
Speaker 1: but I think it's worth pointing out that you have
Speaker 1: that right to refuse to donate your organs, even posthumously,
Speaker 1: that even your corpse has the right to not donate
Speaker 1: those organs those organs.
Speaker 6: I agree. And then so after that, for an abortion,
Speaker 6: if I have an abortion, the I'm just going to
Speaker 6: say fetus, because not all abortions are going to be like,
Speaker 6: I mean, maybe you can do an embryo. I don't know,
Speaker 6: but I'm just gonna say fetus for now. If you
Speaker 6: kill the fetus in an abortion, that fetus dies directly
Speaker 6: from the abortion. It doesn't die because I had a
Speaker 6: bad heart, there was a direct act of killing, or
Speaker 6: an organ donation. There is no direct act of killing.
Speaker 6: I can't be held accountable for somebody else's death because
Speaker 6: I didn't help them. An abortion, I can be held
Speaker 6: accountable because I didn't just not help, I actively kill.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a little bit of a question of did
Speaker 1: you actually pull the lever on that trolley to send
Speaker 1: it down that track. I get the agency part of
Speaker 1: all of this. Does that change the calculus.
Speaker 6: For you not not entirely. It's like whether you pull
Speaker 6: the lever or you hired somebody else to pull the lever.
Speaker 6: So that I hit some bi people inside of three, like,
Speaker 6: if you hired somebody else to do it, you're so
Speaker 6: held culpable for it. If you're the lover, you you
Speaker 6: still are held culpable. So in this example of the
Speaker 6: mother is not pulling the lever, she's hiring somebody else
Speaker 6: to kill her kid.
Speaker 2: Okay, so a couple a couple of questions really, and
Speaker 2: I find this a very interesting hypothetical, to be honest,
Speaker 2: because I think that's a weirdly question of like how
Speaker 2: many steps away from something can we be before we
Speaker 2: are not as culpable for it, because I think that
Speaker 2: I think oftentimes within the abortion conversation, there's a discussion
Speaker 2: of well, you know, you chose to get pregnant or
Speaker 2: engage in things that would that would cause a child,
Speaker 2: and so I appreciate that you brought up even if
Speaker 2: it was your own kid, like it's kind of a
Speaker 2: different situation. So I'm curious because if we live in
Speaker 2: a world where illegal organ markets exis right and it's
Speaker 2: not something that you know, we maybe talk about a
Speaker 2: ton in the US, but it is something that that
Speaker 2: does happen. And so I'm wondering if you ended up
Speaker 2: in a situation where you were physically you know, someone
Speaker 2: is relying on your body to exist. This is a
Speaker 2: pretty common analogy with abortion. So I'm just curious as
Speaker 2: to what your answer is. You're tied to somebody else,
Speaker 2: you will survive, probably, But if you were to say, no,
Speaker 2: I'm actually not consenting to this operation. You know, I've
Speaker 2: been kidnapped. I've been hooked up to this to this
Speaker 2: other person to keep them alive, and you walked away,
Speaker 2: that would be a direct action that caused the death
Speaker 2: of the other person. So what is your take on
Speaker 2: that one?
Speaker 6: Sure? And I don't know how much you guys want
Speaker 6: me to get into this because I called him before
Speaker 6: about the violinist, but I actually this.
Speaker 1: Is the violinist, right, This is the vis just a
Speaker 1: different formulation of it.
Speaker 6: Yeah, So if I refuse, like if I'm I'm just
Speaker 6: gonna go to violin this wrap, if I'm tied to
Speaker 6: the violinist, and I ready walk up and eventually the
Speaker 6: dies because I didn't stay for the whole nine months,
Speaker 6: because I have bottom on me, what do the.
Speaker 2: Vie be twenty minutes, It doesn't matter I would.
Speaker 6: Be directly killing them, But it does because the violinists
Speaker 6: would end up dying of I think it was kidney
Speaker 6: failure or something. So there violiness isn't dying because I'm
Speaker 6: not helping them. They're already dying.
Speaker 2: Okay, but yeah, that's kind of what it, you know.
Speaker 2: I think that, particularly when we're talking about abortion, you're
Speaker 2: saying they're already dying, not necessarily. They're not necessarily dying.
Speaker 2: If they get to use your body for the next
Speaker 2: nine months, then they're not dying at all. Then they're
Speaker 2: going to live where we're.
Speaker 6: Talking about the violinists now, not a fetus, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because if we're thinking about you saying that they're
Speaker 2: already dying because of their bad liver, no they're not.
Speaker 2: They're using your body. They're not dying. They will be
Speaker 2: dying if you choose to get up and leave.
Speaker 6: Like if if I'm removed from the situation, what would
Speaker 6: they like on their death certificate? What would it say
Speaker 6: they died of? Would it say they died of kidney
Speaker 6: failure or whether they say they died because GOHAN didn't help.
Speaker 2: I mean, it would probably say kidney failure. But what
Speaker 2: does an abortion have, Like, what do they list there?
Speaker 2: They don't list because mom didn't help, you know, So
Speaker 2: what do they write there?
Speaker 6: As much as it's not because mom didn't help, it's
Speaker 6: because they actively go in and poison the kid before
Speaker 6: they take the kid out.
Speaker 2: So that is that what they write.
Speaker 1: I don't know that's of them. I mean, I'm sure
Speaker 1: the result. It's not just that the result is the same.
Speaker 1: It's actually that the mechanism is the same because the
Speaker 1: underdeveloped lungs and like the entire system of the fetus
Speaker 1: is not able to support itself, is going to be
Speaker 1: reliant in that same way. That's why the metaphor the
Speaker 1: thought experiment works in this way. So we really haven't
Speaker 1: reinvented the I'm sorry, we didn't catch anything.
Speaker 2: Sorry we didn't catch that. Could you repeat that?
Speaker 6: Yes? Could I ask a question that might help y'all's
Speaker 6: argument a little bit?
Speaker 2: Sure?
Speaker 6: Okay, So I think a question that I've been asked is,
Speaker 6: what if we could take the fetus out without killing it,
Speaker 6: like not directly kill it and let it die? Is
Speaker 6: that kind of something like you would be would that
Speaker 6: be a question you would want to ask or no.
Speaker 1: I mean it gets to kind of your initial thrust,
Speaker 1: which was around sort of the agency of cause of
Speaker 1: death and whether or not we're responsible for directly pulling
Speaker 1: the lever or equally culpable for not pulling levers and
Speaker 1: that kind of thing. I don't know that. I don't know.
Speaker 1: Maybe I'm being too literal and consequentialist about it, But
Speaker 1: if the end result is the same I have, I'm
Speaker 1: hard pressed to see that as like morally distinct.
Speaker 2: I think I would also ask at that point.
Speaker 6: Okay, I would say, if that is a route taken
Speaker 6: where you just don't kill the fetus but extract it
Speaker 6: from the mother, but it's still alive when it comes out,
Speaker 6: and then you just let it die, I would say
Speaker 6: that's the same. That's very similar to like taking to
Speaker 6: not helping the violinist, because you didn't kill the violinists
Speaker 6: and then you just let them die. So I would
Speaker 6: say that's similar. The only difference is this is your child,
Speaker 6: and until it can get help from somebody else to
Speaker 6: take care of it, it requires you.
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, I think looking at this a couple of things. One,
Speaker 2: it feels like a distinction about a difference. It feels
Speaker 2: like it's an argument that can be made that these
Speaker 2: are you know, at this point, we're splitting so many hairs.
Speaker 2: We're living in a science fiction reality. When we're talking
Speaker 2: about having you know, if we can keep the child
Speaker 2: alive outside of the womb and then they can slowly
Speaker 2: die that way or something like okay, like maybe that's
Speaker 2: the thing we could do. It doesn't feel super relevant.
Speaker 2: So when you brought up your child living without you,
Speaker 2: being able to live without you, so let's I feel like,
Speaker 2: let's bring it a little back to reality. You can
Speaker 2: see my silly dog over there in the background. When
Speaker 2: we live in the system that we live in, we
Speaker 2: have very long organ donation lists. You know, it's your child.
Speaker 2: You mentioned you need to take care of them till
Speaker 2: they can live without you. Sort of the vibe here.
Speaker 2: And so supposing you are the only person who can
Speaker 2: give your child that organ because it's a very long
Speaker 2: wait list, because you are the only match. The other
Speaker 2: parent can't do it, and you know they're not going
Speaker 2: to survive unless you do. Are you killing your child
Speaker 2: if you choose not to, I would say no.
Speaker 6: And also, if you let the child die the feet
Speaker 6: as sigh after you extract them, you're not killing them.
Speaker 2: Also, Okay, then it just seems like life in general
Speaker 2: doesn't matter in the scenario. It just seems like a
Speaker 2: hypothetical shrug.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I have to all created a moral framework with
Speaker 1: this idea of removing the fetus and letting it die
Speaker 1: of quote natural causes, where you are increasing suffering while
Speaker 1: calling it somehow more moral than the original conceptualization. And
Speaker 1: that just doesn't resonate for me.
Speaker 6: Sorry, I think I paused too long, so I wasn't
Speaker 6: one hundred percent done. I'm saying that you wouldn't be
Speaker 6: directly killing the child then, but as a parent, you
Speaker 6: have a responsibility to your child until someone else can
Speaker 6: take that responsibility, So you wouldn't be directly involved, you
Speaker 6: wouldn't be the direct cause of their death, but you
Speaker 6: would still you still have a duty to your child
Speaker 6: to not put them in a like, in an environment
Speaker 6: that they can't survive.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, we're kind of relating the argument a little bit
Speaker 1: and going to this notion that you are obligated to
Speaker 1: this violinist if that violinist is your genetic child, and
Speaker 1: so all of these other notions of action sort of
Speaker 1: shift because we are now making the claim that you
Speaker 1: do have a moral obligation to your specific children, which
Speaker 1: I don't you know, dismiss, but it is a different
Speaker 1: way of conceiving of what we originally started on. Is
Speaker 1: that fair?
Speaker 6: And can we make the violinists my child that's like
Speaker 6: five years old? That way it con fits this situation
Speaker 6: a little bit better. So in that case, if I
Speaker 6: put the violinist or my child who is five environment
Speaker 6: that like, let's say I stabbed their kidney or something,
Speaker 6: So now they need me to be hooked up to
Speaker 6: them for nine months to make sure they don't die.
Speaker 6: If it's my child, I think that's appropriate because my
Speaker 6: childerves protect question.
Speaker 2: So say you know you have a genetic illness that
Speaker 2: will compromise your kidney. You have this child anyway, and
Speaker 2: you are the only person who could potentially donate an organ.
Speaker 2: I'm looking at this sort of also like throwing this
Speaker 2: out there as we consider that we can't talk about
Speaker 2: abortion in a vacuum, right. Abortion has legal consequences in
Speaker 2: the world that we live in. So not only are
Speaker 2: you morally responsible, because I would agree, like I'm a mom,
Speaker 2: I have kids. I'm like, I think you'd be a
Speaker 2: pretty crappy parent if you're like, nah, I just don't
Speaker 2: want to get all those needles poked in me. Let
Speaker 2: the kid die, right, That's terrible morally. Should I be
Speaker 2: held criminally responsible for that? Because that's the world we
Speaker 2: live in here in Texas?
Speaker 6: I think you should be held criminally responsible for any
Speaker 6: kid that you directly kill, unless you're at high risk
Speaker 6: of severe horn.
Speaker 2: Okay, I think that a lot.
Speaker 6: If you have five year old kid who's running at
Speaker 6: you with a knife and for some reason, you have
Speaker 6: no other option other than lethal force of self defense,
Speaker 6: you can only use lethal force of self defense if
Speaker 6: there's a high enough risk of If you.
Speaker 2: Choose to have children then knowing they are going to suffer,
Speaker 2: knowing they're going to need organ transplants that they're unlikely
Speaker 2: to be approved for, I think you can make a
Speaker 2: pretty good argument that you have chosen to make that
Speaker 2: child live and die a miserable life and suffer a
Speaker 2: miserable death. You made those choices that led to that.
Speaker 2: They would not have happened had you not made those choices.
Speaker 2: Should we hold people who have children in spite of
Speaker 2: knowing that they have genetic disorders that would cause these things,
Speaker 2: which is a very real scenario. Should we hold them
Speaker 2: criminally responsible for those choices?
Speaker 6: So can I reask your question and that's favorable to me?
Speaker 6: Or is that too much?
Speaker 2: So long as we could like examine why we would
Speaker 2: reframe it for sure?
Speaker 6: Sure, Okay, if you want, I'm just going to rephrase
Speaker 6: it and then we can go back to the way
Speaker 6: you ask it. But to me, it sounds like would
Speaker 6: it be which one is better to like less criminal
Speaker 6: offense to allow your kids to suffer or be the
Speaker 6: direct cause of their death?
Speaker 2: Wait? Are you asking me allowing your child to suffer?
Speaker 2: So you're saying in this scenario, you are by choosing
Speaker 2: to have this child, I would say, by creating that suffering?
Speaker 2: Are we Are we still in that scenario where you
Speaker 2: have chosen this eyes wide open? Or are we in
Speaker 2: a scenario where your child is suffering and you choose
Speaker 2: not to kill them?
Speaker 5: Like?
Speaker 2: Can can you specify for me.
Speaker 6: My child is suffering? It seems like they're going to
Speaker 6: suffer for a week and then that's it and they're
Speaker 6: going to die after that it is less of an
Speaker 6: evil or less criminally bad that's not the right phrase.
Speaker 6: But less for me bad or less of an evil.
Speaker 6: So let your kids live and go through the suffering
Speaker 6: and go through life. The said of killing them before
Speaker 6: any of that happens, I agree.
Speaker 2: That's a totally different scenario though, Like I agree with
Speaker 2: if they're gonna suffer for a week and die, like, okay,
Speaker 2: But you're choosing to bring this life into the world
Speaker 2: knowing it will suffer and knowing it will die prematurely,
Speaker 2: knowing that it is required to have this particular organ
Speaker 2: and you're doing it anyway. And then we add to
Speaker 2: this question, what if you could save them with your organs?
Speaker 2: What if you have them they have this genetic disorder,
Speaker 2: you refuse to give them the liver, so they're going
Speaker 2: to suffer and die. You made all the choices to
Speaker 2: bring them into this world. You did everything you would
Speaker 2: be doing in this abortion scenario, and then you're going
Speaker 2: to let them die because you don't want to give
Speaker 2: them your organ So you created the suffering too, and
Speaker 2: you're choosing not to amend it. You're choosing to let
Speaker 2: them die. Here should that person be criminally liable if
Speaker 2: you get a genetic test and you know your children
Speaker 2: will have this genetic disorder, and you do it anyway,
Speaker 2: do we arrest you?
Speaker 6: I'm sorry, I miss this, did the question the first time.
Speaker 6: I'm sorry about that, but yes, let me answer this
Speaker 6: question directly. So, No, I don't think you should be
Speaker 6: held criminally responsible for not for putting your child in
Speaker 6: a situation like that where maybe you could help by
Speaker 6: taking extraordinary measures by donating your kidney. But I don't
Speaker 6: think any parents should be any parents should be criminally
Speaker 6: charged for not taking extraordinary measures to help their kid.
Speaker 1: It's hard to feel then that you are. It's easy
Speaker 1: to believe then that you don't believe that pregnancy is
Speaker 1: an extraordinary measure.
Speaker 6: I mean, yeah, I wouldn't say that's I mean it's
Speaker 6: extraordinary best part of every single kid, Like every kid
Speaker 6: has had to go through pregnancy.
Speaker 2: Well, every kid's parent has had to go through pregnancy.
Speaker 2: I think that that's something that maybe we have to
Speaker 2: point out because the kids that we see that have
Speaker 2: gone through it, that are alive are the ones who
Speaker 2: survived right. And while that is a majority, because we
Speaker 2: live in a society that does have relatively advanced medical care,
Speaker 2: not every mom makes it through. Not every pregnancy goes
Speaker 2: to term. At this point, we are demonstrably arresting women
Speaker 2: who wanted the pregnancy and did have a medical procedure
Speaker 2: they had to have to continue living, maybe for their
Speaker 2: other kids. Like I think that, yes, it's common, It
Speaker 2: does not mean it is not a major medical procedure.
Speaker 1: It's common, and you know, I take Gohan's point that, yes,
Speaker 1: every person living had some experience of pregnancy, you know,
Speaker 1: on the receiving end of that benefit. But as you
Speaker 1: point out to Fia, that's a gigantic sampling error and
Speaker 1: one that we really need to be reckoning with here.
Speaker 2: So sorry, what did you say?
Speaker 6: Sorry, Christy, I've seen if Christy could expand on his
Speaker 6: point that, like, oh.
Speaker 1: Really, I was just sort of highlighting something Sophia it said,
Speaker 1: which is that it's a gigantic sampling error to say
Speaker 1: that all people who are currently alive experienced pregnancy on
Speaker 1: like the receiving end, because, as Sophia pointed out, all
Speaker 1: of the people who didn't get borned were people who did.
Speaker 2: Not It's also kind of like like, let's compare it
Speaker 2: to another thing that's common but also can be difficult.
Speaker 2: So this feels like a big jump to make. But
Speaker 2: at the same time, I'm going to do it because
Speaker 2: I think it illustrates the point for YouTube gods. I
Speaker 2: will say, CSA, is that something? You know what I'm
Speaker 2: talking about here? Gohan? I yes, man, Okay, So a
Speaker 2: lot CSA is actually extremely common. When in four girls,
Speaker 2: when in six boys are going to experience some level
Speaker 2: of CSA before they reach the age of eighteen. So
Speaker 2: I think it's imperative that we do something about it.
Speaker 2: I think it's important that we we talk about this
Speaker 2: very seriously. It would be very easy to say, and
Speaker 2: I have heard people say this with their own mouths.
Speaker 2: So these are real people that talking about it only
Speaker 2: makes it worse, and that really, like you know, everybody,
Speaker 2: everybody who's there's so many people who do survive it.
Speaker 2: It's side stepping the question of those who commit suicide.
Speaker 2: I just might have upset the YouTube us are saying that,
Speaker 2: but it's side stepping the questions of the massive impacts
Speaker 2: it has on people's lives because it's stable to shrug
Speaker 2: and say, well, a lot of people survive. I would
Speaker 2: say that pregnancy and childbirth are very similar in that
Speaker 2: they're common. There's things a lot of people go through.
Speaker 2: And yet this is sort of ignoring the fact that
Speaker 2: a lot of people don't make it, that it's one
Speaker 2: of the most dangerous things that one can participate in,
Speaker 2: even with the highest standards of medical care, and that
Speaker 2: pregnancy loss and loss of children within the first year
Speaker 2: of life is not only you know, not that uncommon,
Speaker 2: but it is. It's it's horrifying, it affects you forever,
Speaker 2: and so to just say, well, a lot of people
Speaker 2: do it, it really is minimizing how impactful and epic
Speaker 2: this really is.
Speaker 6: So if Alcorn respond to that, I would say, yes,
Speaker 6: pregnancy is a dangerous measure, but my question would be
Speaker 6: how dangerous can it get before you're allowed to use
Speaker 6: lethal force and self defense?
Speaker 2: And in Texas, I mean the mom can die. Let's
Speaker 2: say that's just we live in this state.
Speaker 1: That's the thing that really is where we've drawn a
Speaker 1: lot of these legal lines, and that really does matter.
Speaker 1: Like if we were to talk about sort of the
Speaker 1: ethics of when or how should abortion ever be appropriate,
Speaker 1: and whether it should be freely available to all women
Speaker 1: all the time, or whether it should be restricted to
Speaker 1: certain situations perhaps involving rape or incest or genetic abnormality
Speaker 1: or danger to the mother. Like I think those could
Speaker 1: potentially be worthwhile conversations, but they have to be couching
Speaker 1: and understanding of the world in which we live in.
Speaker 1: We can't just say some hypothetical ideal. We have to
Speaker 1: actually look at the way we value pregnancy in this country,
Speaker 1: at the access to medical care that we have available,
Speaker 1: at the societal resources that are or are not being
Speaker 1: offered to pregnant mothers, and a lot of people who
Speaker 1: find themselves in high risk pregnancy situation.
Speaker 6: So there is a high risk pregnancy and it is
Speaker 6: like your life is on the line, and according to
Speaker 6: what I've said before, if there's a high risk of
Speaker 6: severe harm, you're allowed to use lethal self defense.
Speaker 2: I think that's what's written, but that is not reality.
Speaker 1: That's not the reality of many any pregnant people here
Speaker 1: in the state of Texas. And there are even more
Speaker 1: draconian laws across a lot of this nation, and I
Speaker 1: think that would be certainly the first thing that we
Speaker 1: would start with is that we need to amend those laws.
Speaker 1: I think anytime we talk about we have to get
Speaker 1: away from a strictly binary ideal of exactly what anybody
Speaker 1: should do and rather create a suite of options that
Speaker 1: can be appropriate to any number of very intricate situations, and,
Speaker 1: as Sophia pointed out earlier, be very mindful about the
Speaker 1: way we differentiate morality and criminality.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that can. I I'm to jump in
Speaker 2: also and connect this a little bit, because I think
Speaker 2: it's really easy to say when we're just thinking morally
Speaker 2: things that we would be okay with, or things that
Speaker 2: would operate within our system of morality and integrity, and
Speaker 2: not necessarily realize that the impact that those things have. Say,
Speaker 2: in general, we disagree with abortion, and so we do
Speaker 2: things like select policies that would make it illegal or
Speaker 2: harder to get with. These caveats maybe written into a
Speaker 2: law that can feel really good, that can feel like
Speaker 2: it fits with our moral framework. But the law doesn't
Speaker 2: have our moral framework. We cannot write it specifically enough
Speaker 2: that we will agree with it in these moral ways
Speaker 2: in all circumstances. And so when we try to legislate
Speaker 2: kind of these feelings, this internal sense of integrity, we
Speaker 2: end up putting it at the end of a cudgel.
Speaker 2: The law is not a finely tuned instrument. The law
Speaker 2: is basically a best kind of an ax. So whether
Speaker 2: or not you morally believe that a high risk pregnancy
Speaker 2: should be something that someone could consider having an abortion under,
Speaker 2: that's not really going to be reflected in the reality.
Speaker 2: That's an interesting moral argument, I guess, but it kind
Speaker 2: of doesn't really matter if that's still going to mean
Speaker 2: that we select things that make it harder for other
Speaker 2: people to get or harder for other people to get abortions,
Speaker 2: because the upshot of that will be death on the
Speaker 2: part of the mother. We've seen that happen again and again.
Speaker 2: So it's kind of nice to live in a world
Speaker 2: where we're like, the thing I prefer to happen would
Speaker 2: happen the way I would prefer for this law to
Speaker 2: be interpreted, It would be interpreted that way. We really
Speaker 2: can see now that that's not the case, though, So
Speaker 2: I think I'm going.
Speaker 6: To just respond to you one thing Christy said, and
Speaker 6: one thing you said, Sophia.
Speaker 2: But for sure, christ I know.
Speaker 6: Christy, I know you said, like, it shouldn't be such
Speaker 6: a black and white like there there should be some
Speaker 6: room for our exploration. But I think whenever it comes
Speaker 6: to discussing killing a human organism, we need it to
Speaker 6: be as black and white as possible. This is the
Speaker 6: line you can cross, this is the line you cannot.
Speaker 6: If you cross this line, when you're talking about killing
Speaker 6: another human organism, you've crossed the line. And that line
Speaker 6: needs to be as defined as possible.
Speaker 1: And yeah, I very much appreciate that point of view.
Speaker 1: You know, we talk about these slippery slope type arguments.
Speaker 1: I do think that anytime the question is where do
Speaker 1: we draw the line, the answer needs to come down
Speaker 1: fucking somewhere. And I think I would put forward, based
Speaker 1: on what Sophia just said, that a idealized society would
Speaker 1: be one that removes criminality from the conversation and that
Speaker 1: puts these very complicated moral questions into the hands of
Speaker 1: pregnant people and their medical providers. How does that reality
Speaker 1: strike you? Is that not where you might draw your line?
Speaker 2: Go on?
Speaker 6: And this is kind of that was kind of leading
Speaker 6: into my question with Sophia because it sounded and correct
Speaker 6: me if I'm alongst with you, But it's sounded like
Speaker 6: you were okay with what I said, except you don't
Speaker 6: think it's going to be practiced as said, and therefore
Speaker 6: you don't think it should be long that you're okay
Speaker 6: with the idea of it that you shouldn't be able
Speaker 6: to kill another human organism unless there's high risk of
Speaker 6: severe harm, and that should be held consistent throughout every
Speaker 6: human organism.
Speaker 2: Uh No, I just didn't. I don't necessarily agree with it,
Speaker 2: but I just didn't choose to argue with it in
Speaker 2: that moment. I mean, I think that that's a totally okay.
Speaker 2: So that is such a hypothetical that I also would
Speaker 2: bring it down to, like I guess, you know, if
Speaker 2: you're curious about my personal stance on it, I think
Speaker 2: that before a certain point, that point being viability outside
Speaker 2: of the womb, which I know is a squishy question,
Speaker 2: but that's where I personally would draw this line. I
Speaker 2: don't think there's such a thing as a moral like
Speaker 2: abortion itself is not a moral question. There are moral
Speaker 2: abortions and immoral abortions. Chances are how you go about
Speaker 2: it would sort of matter. So, for instance, an immoral abortion,
Speaker 2: maybe one in which you're at you know, you are
Speaker 2: in every way wanted pregnancy going forward, having like a
Speaker 2: great situation, and then you choose to you know, abort
Speaker 2: the baby, which I yeah, I conceptualized as a baby
Speaker 2: because I've had kids, but not everyone has to in
Speaker 2: order to get back at your partner. You know, that
Speaker 2: would be I would say, an immoral abortion. It's not
Speaker 2: really about the abortion. It's about the motivation. It's about
Speaker 2: the fact you were doing this expressly to hurt people.
Speaker 2: So you know, I'm like, that's I guess it would
Speaker 2: be an immoral abortion. But like a moral abortion could
Speaker 2: be one where you have three or four kids already.
Speaker 2: This is going to literally take food out of their mouths.
Speaker 2: You do not have the to support another child. You
Speaker 2: don't have the time to support that child, and you
Speaker 2: may want it, but it's just not going to be
Speaker 2: reasonable for you to take care of that. If that
Speaker 2: is really the best option for someone, I'd say that's
Speaker 2: a moral abortion. So I actually I would say that
Speaker 2: there's not really like a line I draw on abortion
Speaker 2: itself beyond viability. And again that's my personal line. I
Speaker 2: did a quite deep study on the concept of abortion
Speaker 2: for a while, and the place where I was the
Speaker 2: most surprised my opinion changed was actually in late term abortions,
Speaker 2: because I thought I was going to be against those
Speaker 2: no matter what. The more I got into it, looking
Speaker 2: into when they actually happen, who actually gets them, and
Speaker 2: the circumstances that they go through. I was surprised by
Speaker 2: how much I felt like those should be allowed. I
Speaker 2: thought I would have a really hard line there. It
Speaker 2: turns out it's almost it's pretty much always a very
Speaker 2: thoughtful decision undertaken by doctors. Doctors oftentimes refuse to do
Speaker 2: late term abortions because they're like, no, I'm not comfortable
Speaker 2: with this, this baby's viable, I'm not going to do it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's usually in really horrific circumstances where that was an
Speaker 2: incredibly wanted baby anyway, And but usually, I mean every
Speaker 2: single time I can think of, it's just I'm leaving
Speaker 2: room for a possibility that that's not the case. So yeah,
Speaker 2: I guess I've also been surprised by my own opinion
Speaker 2: on a person as time goes has been a bit
Speaker 2: of a rant. But you mentioned what I believed, so
Speaker 2: there it is.
Speaker 6: Well, I appreciate that. I think you're the first hosts
Speaker 6: I've talked to you on the various shows who has
Speaker 6: given a line other than first, And I understand it's
Speaker 6: not a hard line for you because you're still seem
Speaker 6: to be okay with late term abortion and certain circumstances.
Speaker 6: But I appreciate the honesty. And yeah, I would say,
Speaker 6: first off, there's no such thing as an unwanted kid.
Speaker 2: It's not true. That's not true at all. What are
Speaker 2: you talking about. I know multiple people personally who are
Speaker 2: conceived through rape. I mean, that's just how is that
Speaker 2: possible that that's a wanted kid?
Speaker 6: Somebody else would love that kid if they had the chance.
Speaker 6: I guarantee it.
Speaker 2: No, Okay, I highly highly highly recommend. Okay, I'm gonna
Speaker 2: just positoring there. I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: Seconds in our foster care system, please.
Speaker 2: Exactly fifteen seconds in our foster ear system. Also, our
Speaker 2: adoption system has a lot of issues. Even if that
Speaker 2: kid is technically considered wanted by someone else, it doesn't
Speaker 2: mean that they deserve to use my body if I'm
Speaker 2: raped to have their own kid. First all, that's a
Speaker 2: really horrifying thought. And second, look up stories of adult adoptees.
Speaker 2: Adult adoptees will talk about their experiences as the adopted child,
Speaker 2: and they're oftentimes horrific. They will actively say they wish
Speaker 2: their biological parent could have had an abortion. These are
Speaker 2: not necessarily solutions. That's kind of like saying there's no
Speaker 2: such thing as an unwanted street urchin into Kenzie in England.
Speaker 2: Somebody will put them up a shoot to have them,
Speaker 2: you know, clean fire flus. Somebody will use that kid
Speaker 2: like that. That's really difficult at some point if we
Speaker 2: extrapolate far enough, someone wants to use you to fill
Speaker 2: a hole in their life, maybe even pretend that that
Speaker 2: you know you're their biological mother. But that's not a solution.
Speaker 2: And I highly encourage you to even also look up
Speaker 2: the death rates for adopted children versus non adopted children,
Speaker 2: Like these experiences are different, and I'm not by any
Speaker 2: means saying every adopted family is bad and evil, but
Speaker 2: there is inherent trauma and adoption and it is made
Speaker 2: light of very easily, and I feel like we're kind
Speaker 2: of on the brink of that. So I really would
Speaker 2: be curious as to your thoughts if you kind of
Speaker 2: engage with those stories of adult survivors of adoption. And
Speaker 2: I use loord survivors because that's what a lot of
Speaker 2: them use.
Speaker 6: So true things I've read that turnal ways study and
Speaker 6: that was honestly like a good source, like certain circumstances
Speaker 6: of hey, this is how abortion improved my life, or hey,
Speaker 6: this is how abortion improved my family is like Xcellenz,
Speaker 6: there's a lot of stories like that in the turnal
Speaker 6: Way study. I'm like, abortion hasn't helped out people financially
Speaker 6: helped out faring these financially. I definitely think it can
Speaker 6: and it has, but I think there's a lot of
Speaker 6: evil that can also help out families. As far as
Speaker 6: getting medicare adult adoptees, I'm going to have to wait
Speaker 6: a couple of years. I have two adopted kids myself,
Speaker 6: and we'll see what happens when they get older. But
Speaker 6: for right now, I'm just going to try to be
Speaker 6: the best parent to know and that they deserve.
Speaker 2: So I almost feel even more Yeah, so I actually
Speaker 2: love that. I almost feel like even more so than
Speaker 2: because you're a parent of adopted children. The kids who
Speaker 2: have struggled and had the inherent trauma of adoption and
Speaker 2: still do talk with and are close to their adopted parents,
Speaker 2: it's because their parents started researching the system, and a
Speaker 2: lot of them mention, like these adult adoptees talk about how, yeah,
Speaker 2: their parents adopted them and then started to research the
Speaker 2: system and kind of realize some of these outcomes and
Speaker 2: actually made their adopted parents better parents who had more
Speaker 2: of an understanding over they can from. So I get
Speaker 2: that it might hit like a little closer home because
Speaker 2: for me, I'm like the immediate thing I think whenever
Speaker 2: I learned anything about parenting, I'm like, oh no, did
Speaker 2: I completely mess up my kid already? Because I have
Speaker 2: a three known almost one year old, and I'm like,
Speaker 2: you know, right, they're so vulnerable. But I know it
Speaker 2: would be difficult, I'm sure because I just I go
Speaker 2: through similar difficulty. But that might actually be really good
Speaker 2: for you to look at too, because you have adopted children,
Speaker 2: because there are parents who have done that and it's
Speaker 2: been pretty good.
Speaker 6: Right, I know, Like for me when my key turned one,
Speaker 6: I was like, hey, we needed the kid is still alive.
Speaker 6: We did something right now and then But now as
Speaker 6: she gets old, I might get a little emotional, but
Speaker 6: she is she has two older siblings that a mom kept,
Speaker 6: So I know she's going to have abandonment issues grown
Speaker 6: up because she's going to be like, well, why did
Speaker 6: she get rid of me? What's wrong with me? So
Speaker 6: I know that that's going to be coming down the
Speaker 6: line trying to keep an open relationship with the birth
Speaker 6: mom whole. That takes away some of the band issues.
Speaker 6: But you know what, whatever she has coming down the
Speaker 6: line for her will be there and we'll try a
Speaker 6: support her. But she's probably on some issues going down
Speaker 6: the line. But I think whatever issue she has, it's
Speaker 6: better than her being killed when she was in the room.
Speaker 2: I think that, I really I think that that's where
Speaker 2: these issues become so hard. And I think it can
Speaker 2: be easy to minimize the major impact that abortion can have.
Speaker 2: It's and just say like it's good all the time,
Speaker 2: and I believe in it all the time. It's also
Speaker 2: easy to minimize the major impact that I appreciate that
Speaker 2: you've read the Turnoway study that not having an abortion
Speaker 2: can have. I think it's I think one thing I
Speaker 2: do want to put out to you is that the
Speaker 2: way you love your kids, what you feel for them
Speaker 2: about them, is so often the way that women who
Speaker 2: have abortions feel about their already living children. It's not easier.
Speaker 2: They don't love their kids less than you love your kids,
Speaker 2: and they're still making this choice, which to me indicates
Speaker 2: it's more than just financial. You know, I think we
Speaker 2: throughout kind of when you're like, yeah, there may be
Speaker 2: financial benefits, but there's financial benefits evil things all the time. Okay,
Speaker 2: but let's talk about what the financial situation means for
Speaker 2: these particular families. You know, that might mean, particularly as
Speaker 2: as it can be hard to ensure that your children
Speaker 2: are fed and clothed, and we have less and less
Speaker 2: support for that over time, that might mean that you
Speaker 2: have active suffering on the part of these children who
Speaker 2: are already alive, who love you so much. And I
Speaker 2: don't expect this to change your opinion at all, necessarily
Speaker 2: because I think I really appreciate how much're engaging with
Speaker 2: this issue. But I think I put it out there
Speaker 2: to just underscore that, Yeah, I agree that it's great
Speaker 2: and wonderful that you get to have children you love.
Speaker 2: I don't think anything. I in no way want to
Speaker 2: discount that. But these women who do have abortions also
Speaker 2: love their kids too.
Speaker 1: Yeah. If I can just bottom line it all a
Speaker 1: little bit, I want to say that I really acknowledge
Speaker 1: Sophia's point about the possibility of a quote moral abortion
Speaker 1: versus an immoral abortion, and where I really come down
Speaker 1: ultimately on all of this is that we ought to
Speaker 1: be removing the criminality of it and leaving those very
Speaker 1: complex moral decisions in the hands of pregnant people and
Speaker 1: their medical providers, who I hope are being taught through
Speaker 1: an incredibly complex series of medical ethics and are working
Speaker 1: very diligently to apply them in incredibly specific and difficult situations.
Speaker 1: And that we would build a society that offers support
Speaker 1: to these decisions and to these different types of opportunities,
Speaker 1: and that we take lawmakers who are incredibly disconnected from
Speaker 1: the situation and so often just looking for good sound
Speaker 1: bites out of the equation. Does that feel like a
Speaker 1: place that you'd feel comfortable coming down? Is that a
Speaker 1: good bottom line for you as well?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think that sometimes it surprises people how much
Speaker 2: I may morally oppose certain situations for abortion. That's a
Speaker 2: personal choice on my part, like that's how I feel
Speaker 2: about it. But because these are so complex, because these
Speaker 2: issues are so hard, because we know what happens legally
Speaker 2: and we see it more and more every day. When
Speaker 2: we've taken the ability to make that choice out of
Speaker 2: the hands of doctors, out of the hands of the
Speaker 2: women who are most impacted by this and put it
Speaker 2: in the hands of the state that I feel like
Speaker 2: because of the complexity, then it needs to be something
Speaker 2: individuals and healthcare providers select, you know, not in spite
Speaker 2: of it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, So go on, can you kind of bottom
Speaker 1: line it for me and let me know where you're
Speaker 1: at here at the end of this call.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I would say I brought up points four in
Speaker 6: favor of abortion for a financial reasons. I know a
Speaker 6: lot of the times it's more how cannot feed the
Speaker 6: rest of my family, or even for the kid, it's
Speaker 6: this kid is going to suffer. I love this kid
Speaker 6: so much. I don't want them to go through with
Speaker 6: the suffering. Let me and their suffering now understand that.
Speaker 6: But I also understand a lot of evil in the
Speaker 6: world has been done out of positive thoughts. For Kude,
Speaker 6: I think there's a line in it from Pirates of
Speaker 6: the Caribbean, like, do you guys remember that movie? It's yeah,
Speaker 6: I definitely remember that movie.
Speaker 2: I have a lot of stories about that movie.
Speaker 6: A lot a lot of good things are paid like
Speaker 6: it pretty much just the road to hell is paid
Speaker 6: with good intentions. So like doing evil things like killing
Speaker 6: your kids can be done from a point of love,
Speaker 6: but in the end that act is still evil.
Speaker 2: And here's something I would I would I would say,
Speaker 2: I fully agree, Oh sorry ahead, I fully agree with
Speaker 2: you that I love quotes like that. I fully agree
Speaker 2: with you that a lot of good things can be
Speaker 2: done out of evil. I think that's exactly how I
Speaker 2: would describe our current abortion laws. There are things people
Speaker 2: who feel an immense amount of stress at the concept
Speaker 2: of abortion, who do not, who feel it's doing something evil.
Speaker 2: But as a result, we have created a situation where
Speaker 2: women and their doctors cannot make choices, and women are
Speaker 2: dying or women are being permanently incapable of having children
Speaker 2: because they go through this really horrific process. Like, these
Speaker 2: are laws that I think may have been made with
Speaker 2: some very good intentions, probably out of love. And I mean,
Speaker 2: I think it's it's it's I love that. I love
Speaker 2: that that that line. But yeah, I would apply it
Speaker 2: to that too.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, when we get into the like deontology
Speaker 1: versus utilitarianism type situation and debate, we do have an
Speaker 1: obligation to descend into the particulars and actually see what
Speaker 1: is happening. And we can see very clearly in the
Speaker 1: statistics since the DABS decision that market harm is being
Speaker 1: caused particularly to pregnant when and then so it's uh,
Speaker 1: it's definitely a concern. Go on, I really appreciate your
Speaker 1: call and you being willing to descend into something.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and it was a very nice call. Sorry, I
Speaker 6: got a little emotional there.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 6: I also I feel like, yeah, of course, I mean,
Speaker 6: you have kids. The idea that like either half of humanity,
Speaker 6: not half, but like a million of humanity is being
Speaker 6: killed in America or a million pregnant moms are being
Speaker 6: forced to go through something they don't want. It's a
Speaker 6: bit either I'm right I'm saving kids, or I'm wrong
Speaker 6: and I'm hurting million. As a woman, it's a it's
Speaker 6: a big question. I really got to try and make
Speaker 6: sure I have as good of understanding as this as
Speaker 6: I can get. I think discussing it with people who
Speaker 6: disagree with me is probably the best way to go.
Speaker 6: Reading things like the turn Away study, and one thing
Speaker 6: I was surprised with with the turn Away study was
Speaker 6: it's said like it actually showed data for how I'm
Speaker 6: going to say pro life walls.
Speaker 2: I know you're not going to agree with that, but
Speaker 2: it's the term we use, you know.
Speaker 6: Yeah, like how it actually does affect. Like one thing
Speaker 6: I keep hearing you is that all these laws won't
Speaker 6: stop one from having abortions. It actually does has a
Speaker 6: very real effect. I think overturning throw magnify that even more.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you're actually right, you know, like I
Speaker 2: feel like we could go on talking for days. This
Speaker 2: is a very interesting conversation. But yeah, I just I
Speaker 2: really appreciate the all right.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 6: And it's been a very good time.
Speaker 1: Thank you guys, Thank you. All right. Well, I do
Speaker 1: want to remind people that bat Cruise tickets are still available,
Speaker 1: But rather than jumping into all of those different places
Speaker 1: that you can donate and support the organization, I just
Speaker 1: want to remind people again about bitt lea slash Austin
Speaker 1: Flood Fund, where you can contribute to the five oh
Speaker 1: one c three nonprofit Kerr County Flood Relief Fund that
Speaker 1: was set up by the Community Foundation of the Texas
Speaker 1: Hill Country. And before we jump into our next caller,
Speaker 1: let's go ahead and thank our incredible top five patrons. Sophia,
Speaker 1: you want to do the honors for us this week?
Speaker 2: Yeah, give me one second too, Yes, they're there. I'm sorry.
Speaker 2: I was really absorbed with that call and I was
Speaker 2: like I should still down. Okay, So our top five
Speaker 2: patrons number one Oops all Singularity, number two dingle Berry Jackson,
Speaker 2: number three Coleevi, Helvetti, number four Ja Carlton, and number
Speaker 2: five Hell's Bells.
Speaker 1: Seeing her on the list.
Speaker 2: Nice. Yeah, there's some names in here that I'm like, oh,
Speaker 2: I'm less familiar with, so it's fun to see shake
Speaker 2: up a little bit. Yeah, honorable mention Tod vor Valjean,
Speaker 2: which I'm I'm kind of saying, like Jean Valjean from
Speaker 2: 's like that I think has to.
Speaker 1: Be the way that you do it.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Four, So okay, let's probably demonetized. Yeah, any dot c
Speaker 1: sly sash Patreon t if you would like to join
Speaker 1: us as a Patreon subscriber. And with that, let's let's
Speaker 1: kind of keep the conversation going by talking to Anne
Speaker 1: in California, who has another view on abortion and what's
Speaker 1: on your mind.
Speaker 5: Hello Christy, Hello Sophia, how are you today?
Speaker 3: Doing all right?
Speaker 1: Thank you?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Doing pretty well?
Speaker 5: Good?
Speaker 6: Good?
Speaker 2: Well.
Speaker 5: I'm calling in as someone I have been pregnant three
Speaker 5: times in my life, and I made a different decision
Speaker 5: each time. So I know personal experience doesn't necessarily amount
Speaker 5: to expertise, but do you.
Speaker 1: Think it is important to enter into this space with
Speaker 1: I mean, we talked to so many folks who I
Speaker 1: won't say don't have any dog in this fight, but
Speaker 1: who don't have a uterus, who have never had a
Speaker 1: you know, congenital condition or been faced with that like
Speaker 1: life life of the mother, life of the fetus type
Speaker 1: of decision. So I do really appreciate the thoughts of
Speaker 1: somebody who has been in experiences related to pregnancy. So
Speaker 1: sorry for that preamble, but please go on in.
Speaker 5: Okay, okay, Well, my first pregnancy was I gave the
Speaker 5: baby up for adoption. I was impregnated non consensually, and
Speaker 5: I didn't know what to do. I was eighteen years old,
Speaker 5: just you know, a girl with nine siblings from a
Speaker 5: Catholic family, and I didn't know what to do. I
Speaker 5: was scared. I'm like, well, I can't get an abortion.
Speaker 5: There's no way I could keep it because I was
Speaker 5: eighteen and my parents said that if I kept it,
Speaker 5: I wouldn't be able to live in their house anymore.
Speaker 5: So they were going to throw me out and I
Speaker 5: had nowhere to go. I had no money, I had nothing.
Speaker 5: And so my final decision was, Okay, I'll give the
Speaker 5: baby up for adoption. And I felt really good about
Speaker 5: that decision, so because I thought, I thought, you know what,
Speaker 5: you know, I you know, it's the best thing for
Speaker 5: the baby, and you know, and I'm not gonna lie.
Speaker 5: I I was not ready for that role. I wanted to,
Speaker 5: you know, have a few years of being young, so so,
Speaker 5: you know, but I still feel that it was the
Speaker 5: best decision at the time. God, there's so much So
Speaker 5: I went through this Catholic adoption agency and because it
Speaker 5: was all I knew, Like I didn't. I wasn't even
Speaker 5: sure you even believed in that stuff anymore. But I
Speaker 5: was like, well, you just stick with what you know.
Speaker 5: And I was raised very Catholic. F I'm like, Okay,
Speaker 5: that Catholic adoption agency was the port in the storm
Speaker 5: for me that I went through, and you know, I
Speaker 5: then the time came I had the baby. I chose
Speaker 5: the parents before before she was born. I had a
Speaker 5: meeting with them. They're very nice people, but I'm really nervous.
Speaker 2: Sorry, oh no, like just to affirm that I really
Speaker 2: appreciate you sharing your story even so far, like even
Speaker 2: so far, there's perspectives in it that are great and
Speaker 2: that are so valuable. So and I can tell you
Speaker 2: I can't really speak for you, Christy, but I have
Speaker 2: a hunch you'll agree that we make the best decisions
Speaker 2: we can at that time. And so I absolutely can
Speaker 2: see how as an eighteen year old you're like, what
Speaker 2: do I do here? You know, this is a huge,
Speaker 2: huge decision, and you know so so just so you
Speaker 2: know in case you were thinking, am I going to
Speaker 2: be judged for this zero amount of judgment from anywhere here?
Speaker 2: And I fully believe you were. You were doing your
Speaker 2: best at every point.
Speaker 5: Yep.
Speaker 1: Me and Carl Rogers would co sign, Please keep going?
Speaker 5: Okay, Okay, where was I? Okay? I chose the parents
Speaker 5: and everything, and I had the baby, but I was
Speaker 5: not prepared for I thought there's going to be some emotion.
Speaker 5: But I was in the hospital for a couple of
Speaker 5: days with her, and you know, I only got to
Speaker 5: hold her for a couple of minutes every evening, But
Speaker 5: every time I held her, I just I sobbed. I
Speaker 5: just it was so hard. It was just so so hard.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 5: And then on that yeah, and then the last day
Speaker 5: in the hospital, when the adopted parents were on their
Speaker 5: way to pick her up, they asked me if I
Speaker 5: wanted to hold her one last time, and I couldn't
Speaker 5: do it. I couldn't do it. It was so hard.
Speaker 5: I was like, no, if I hold her one last time,
Speaker 5: I'm not going to want to let her go. And
Speaker 5: I've already made this decision, and you know, and and
Speaker 5: I knew if if I had switched and said no,
Speaker 5: I'm going to keep it, I'd be screwed. So you know,
Speaker 5: the only thing I could do was like, I leave
Speaker 5: the hospital without holding her one last time. And I
Speaker 5: don't feel like I was getting rid of her or
Speaker 5: abandoning her in any way. But I do feel sometimes
Speaker 5: that these pro life people, when they talk about it,
Speaker 5: they kind of act as if it's always just you know,
Speaker 5: a mother, you know, a woman, just you know, getting
Speaker 5: rid of a child. And they seem to have this
Speaker 5: casual attitude about adoption, Oh, you know, just give it
Speaker 5: up for adoption. Well, as you you were talking earlier,
Speaker 5: do you know the adoption system is not great, and
Speaker 5: the foster care systems is horrible, and I just I
Speaker 5: guess I'm saying is like pro life people really need
Speaker 5: to think about what it means. And I know there's
Speaker 5: all different kinds of cases where a child is taken
Speaker 5: from a parent. Sometimes they you know, they give it
Speaker 5: up for adoption. Sometimes maybe the child gets taken away
Speaker 5: from them for whatever reason. Sometimes you know, or they'll
Speaker 5: drop it off at a fire station or something. But
Speaker 5: they're all hard and they're you know, they're hard on
Speaker 5: on the person doing that, and you know, and they
Speaker 5: can be hard for the kids. And what go Anne
Speaker 5: was talking about earlier about I guess an adopted daughter
Speaker 5: or something. But he's saying, oh, you know, he knows
Speaker 5: that he's going to have to, you know, help her
Speaker 5: when she starts asking questions about why did my mom
Speaker 5: get rid of me?
Speaker 1: What?
Speaker 5: You know, what did I do wrong? And I'm like, well,
Speaker 5: what you know? Does she know the circumstances because I
Speaker 5: didn't get the whole story about it because I was,
Speaker 5: you know, chatting with the call screener. But but my
Speaker 5: daughter's adoptive parents told her that, you know, your mother,
Speaker 5: she was just she was a young girl, and she
Speaker 5: was very scared and she was very confused, and she
Speaker 5: wanted to do what was best for you or what
Speaker 5: you know, or what she felt was best for you,
Speaker 5: and so you know, yeah, she gave you to us.
Speaker 1: So yeah, no, I very much appreciate that story. I'm
Speaker 1: interested in your other experiences with pregnancy and how that
Speaker 1: might kind of inform you in these questions of the
Speaker 1: criminality of abortion or any other thoughts you might want
Speaker 1: to impart to us before that.
Speaker 2: I also just want to acknowledge from a human perspective
Speaker 2: that I actually got a little emotional as you're talking
Speaker 2: about holding your baby and how you know I've had
Speaker 2: to and I remember being asked at the hospital like okay,
Speaker 2: so you're taking your baby home, like, you know, just
Speaker 2: to clarify that that there wasn't an adoption agreement in place,
Speaker 2: and just how how strong you must have been, because
Speaker 2: even hearing about it, I'm like crumble inside. So I'm
Speaker 2: just acknowledging that and appreciating that you're sharing.
Speaker 6: Oh.
Speaker 2: I don't know if you see it, but there's someding
Speaker 2: you love rings on the screen. Yeah, So how much
Speaker 2: I appreciate that, and how you know, we never know
Speaker 2: who needs our story, and so someone listening to that story,
Speaker 2: as hard as I'm sure it is to share a
Speaker 2: lot of the time, you know, if it can just
Speaker 2: soften their heart toward others who are going through something similar,
Speaker 2: I just appreciate that so much.
Speaker 5: Oh, thank you. I didn't mean to make you emotional.
Speaker 5: I'm sorry, that's okay, Okay, So Christy, you asked about
Speaker 5: my other experiences.
Speaker 1: Yeah, or really just what your experiences have taught you
Speaker 1: about this question of abortion and the morality or the
Speaker 1: criminality of it all, and what you might recommend. What
Speaker 1: is your sort of is ought for those watching about
Speaker 1: how we ought to be thinking about abortion.
Speaker 5: Well, I mean, again, it's another personal experience. But you know,
Speaker 5: I because I did have eventually have my son with
Speaker 5: the father of the fetus that I had an abortion from.
Speaker 5: But I mean, my opinion about it is that Roe v.
Speaker 5: Wade should have been law because I think I think
Speaker 5: Roe v. Wade it's like up to viability unless there's
Speaker 5: something wrong. And if people want to be pro life
Speaker 5: and they want to prevent women from getting abortions, well
Speaker 5: what are they doing to help?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, I don't like to engage in what about
Speaker 1: it isn't But you're yeah, you definitely highlight a really
Speaker 1: important point here, because if the pro life movement wants
Speaker 1: to be invested in increasing the well being and the
Speaker 1: number of people being born, then there are definitely some
Speaker 1: much more efficient and effective ways of going about that process.
Speaker 1: It does raise some very interesting questions about the motivation
Speaker 1: of the pro life movement and its ties to evangelicalism.
Speaker 1: I mean there's a lot to be said going down
Speaker 1: that road.
Speaker 5: Right, Yes, there is there's a lot to it. I mean, personally,
Speaker 5: I think that you know, I guess I'm on the safe,
Speaker 5: rare and legal, you know thing where like I believe
Speaker 5: in I believe in proper sex education. I believe in
Speaker 5: freely available contraception, so people, you know, they have information
Speaker 5: and they have protection not just from you know, pregnancy,
Speaker 5: but from diseases too. But if that doesn't work out
Speaker 5: and you and you know, you know, say you do
Speaker 5: use failed birth control and you get pregnant and you
Speaker 5: don't want to keep it, then yeah, I think, you know,
Speaker 5: within the first twenty or so weeks what the Roby Wade.
Speaker 1: Was, uh No, I mean I definitely co signed all
Speaker 1: of these wishless items and just kind of want to
Speaker 1: add on to it building a society where we actually
Speaker 1: like respect the sexual and bodily autonomy of young women,
Speaker 1: you know, I mean basic feminist ideals here would really
Speaker 1: change the conversation.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think the thing that stands out to me as
Speaker 2: you're saying this is that we know how to eliminate abortion,
Speaker 2: Like it's the things you just listed. We know how
Speaker 2: to make it so rare that it is almost just
Speaker 2: completely negligible. It is sex education, it is free contraceptives.
Speaker 2: It is ensuring that we talk about things like consent.
Speaker 2: It's ensuring that we have a healthy respect for people's
Speaker 2: personal sexual in life choices. But we know that for
Speaker 2: religious reasons, there are people that are actually opposing these
Speaker 2: measures in our society. And I think for me, you know,
Speaker 2: we are an atheist show, right, and so for me
Speaker 2: kind of when I think about what Christy mentioned up top,
Speaker 2: Christian nationalism, it's hard to believe people really want to
Speaker 2: do things like eliminate abortion when they then support wholeheartedly
Speaker 2: people in power who are not going to do those things,
Speaker 2: who are just going to crack down on women. That's tough.
Speaker 2: That's hard to really believe. It's the abortion they care,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 5: Yeah, Yeah, it is it is. I mean, ever since
Speaker 5: Roby Wade was overturned and the dogs, he said, look
Speaker 5: at the horrible things that happen, like that poor woman
Speaker 5: in Georgia who had a wedplot in her brain and
Speaker 5: she couldn't get care and she was brain dead, and
Speaker 5: they kept her on life support because she was like
Speaker 5: nine weeks pregnant when she died or was declared brain dead,
Speaker 5: and they kept her on life support until they couldn't
Speaker 5: keep her on life support anymore. They had to remove,
Speaker 5: you know, the feets from the womb.
Speaker 2: And I think the thing for me that comes up
Speaker 2: with that, and yeah, well, the thing for me that
Speaker 2: comes up with that is that you described it as horrible,
Speaker 2: and I wholeheartedly agree. I think the thing I have
Speaker 2: a hard time with with people is those who don't
Speaker 2: see that as horrible, those who see that as a
Speaker 2: good outcome. There are plenty of those, and it's usually
Speaker 2: four religious reasons. And it's hard not to see religion
Speaker 2: is harmful personally in society when it's literally making someone
Speaker 2: an incubator and calling that a win, you know, Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean that's I mean, that's what we've come to.
Speaker 5: And I think in any other timeline, if a pregnant
Speaker 5: woman died, the fetus would die too, and they would
Speaker 5: just you know, you know, this is a tragic loss.
Speaker 5: They wouldn't assign any criminality to it or you know,
Speaker 5: suspect any foul play. Is just yeah, a pregnant woman
Speaker 5: and the fetus have died. Yeah, it was just just
Speaker 5: back then. But now, I mean even before we'll be wade.
Speaker 2: Yeah, now that and I think the idea of keeping
Speaker 2: people alive in a brain dead state maybe wasn't as developed,
Speaker 2: but I agree, like so kind of knowing you're in
Speaker 2: California here, I've gone through two pregnancies and two birston Texas,
Speaker 2: which feels relevant here. And we had like a whole
Speaker 2: conversation with my husband and I and this was I realized,
Speaker 2: what I'm about to do is admit to conspiring to
Speaker 2: potentially commit a crime in Texas. And I never committed,
Speaker 2: but it's essentially what I did. It was like, Okay,
Speaker 2: if there's a situation where you may not survive, where
Speaker 2: something would happen. It was a discussion of what I
Speaker 2: would do, like what would happen? And I couldn't ask
Speaker 2: a doctor about it here because they could be held
Speaker 2: criminally liable for my abortion. There are many people that,
Speaker 2: you know, the state of Texas has started requesting hiporecords.
Speaker 2: People women in the state of Texas don't use period
Speaker 2: tracking apps anymore, oftentimes because they're worried that that will
Speaker 2: be monitored to see whether or not they got an
Speaker 2: abortion at some point. So it's people act like this
Speaker 2: is crazy, but this is real, and so my we're
Speaker 2: in a privileged of position to say that my plan
Speaker 2: was to go to California to friends that I have
Speaker 2: there and seek an abortion if it became medically necessary.
Speaker 2: I couldn't talk to my doctors here. I would just
Speaker 2: have to come back and say that I went on
Speaker 2: vacation in California and I had a miscarriage. That is
Speaker 2: what That was our plan, because you have to have
Speaker 2: a plan. We were lucky enough to be able to
Speaker 2: have a plan. But exactly what happened in Georgia, exactly
Speaker 2: what has happened multiple times now, is what we were
Speaker 2: worried about happening. It's so real and for anyone to
Speaker 2: diminish that or the impact that would have on my
Speaker 2: husband and with my second present pregnancy, my current child
Speaker 2: to say that that I don't know that abortion is
Speaker 2: not a potentially medically necessary procedure. It diminishes their lives.
Speaker 2: It diminishes the impact I have in their lives that
Speaker 2: I might matter to my already existence, son, It diminishes
Speaker 2: all of that. And it's bizarre that what I just
Speaker 2: did was admit on the Internet to contemplating committing a crime,
Speaker 2: But that that's what's real.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a absolutely wild world that we are building
Speaker 1: right now, and the consequences of the Dobs decision are
Speaker 1: still being sorted through, but early returns are really terrifying,
Speaker 1: whether we're looking at these anecdotal study stories or the
Speaker 1: statistical analysis that are beginning to come out and be
Speaker 1: sort of sifted through. No matter how you slice it,
Speaker 1: when we bring criminality into this conversation, you see demonstrable harm,
Speaker 1: whether that was anybody's intention, whether that harm is being
Speaker 1: caused by a desire to prevent the evil of murder,
Speaker 1: or however we define that. Our current situation is incredibly messy,
Speaker 1: and I think that's something that we all have to
Speaker 1: grapple with. No matter where you come down on that
Speaker 1: question of viability or whether or not to take care
Speaker 1: of the violinist or pull the trolley lever or whatever
Speaker 1: else you want to talk about. We have to recognize
Speaker 1: that there is incredible harm being done right now.
Speaker 5: Yes, yes, even in California. I mean, I'm fifty seven
Speaker 5: years old and I've had a hysterectomy, But that doesn't
Speaker 5: mean that I don't feel like I have a dog
Speaker 5: in the fight, you know, because what I've been through,
Speaker 5: and because I don't want to see younger women, you know,
Speaker 5: deal with all of this and have to go through
Speaker 5: all of this. Like I think about my daughter, I
Speaker 5: think amount my granddaughter.
Speaker 3: But.
Speaker 5: I don't need you know, like even if I was
Speaker 5: younger and you know, still able to procreate here in California,
Speaker 5: I don't know that I would feel safe right now,
Speaker 5: even here. I hear that because the government has gotten
Speaker 5: so out of control.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, I hear that. And I feel like
Speaker 1: I maybe talk about this on air a little bit
Speaker 1: too often, but I have to admit I'm kind of
Speaker 1: fucked up about it. Just working as a therapist, seeing
Speaker 1: how many of my clients are fleeing the state of
Speaker 1: Texas because they don't feel comfortable raising their trans kid
Speaker 1: here because they don't feel comfortable risking getting pregnant and
Speaker 1: starting a family in a society that is not going
Speaker 1: to support them if something tragic were to happen. The
Speaker 1: amount of people fleeing the Austin area in order to
Speaker 1: seek some amount of I guess political refugee status in
Speaker 1: other states to try and feel like they have more
Speaker 1: safety and more support is just really remarkable. And it's
Speaker 1: something that I have experienced on a personal level with
Speaker 1: friends and family members leaving the area. It's something I've
Speaker 1: definitely seen in mass on a professional level, and it
Speaker 1: really terrifies me. This idea of let's just give the
Speaker 1: question back to the states is having profound impact on
Speaker 1: people's lives, even people who will never show up in
Speaker 1: the statistics on abortion related deaths or whatever else we
Speaker 1: might be trying to use to gauge all of those.
Speaker 5: Well, aren't there some states?
Speaker 2: Is it?
Speaker 5: Florida one of them? They don't even put out statistics anymore,
Speaker 5: or they fired the people who do the statistics.
Speaker 1: My fun I heard you believe I got a news
Speaker 1: story connected to Florida where there was reduced reporting. We're
Speaker 1: seeing reduced reporting across a number of federal and state
Speaker 1: agencies right now in a supposed attempt to cut back
Speaker 1: government costs. That's certainly another conversation, but a messy one
Speaker 1: and one that I barely even want to think about
Speaker 1: in the wake of all of the criticism being lobbed
Speaker 1: on our weather forecasting system at this particular time in
Speaker 1: our state's history. So, yeah, big questions to be exploring
Speaker 1: that direction.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's also like one of those things
Speaker 2: that sometimes I remember this happened during the pandemic as well,
Speaker 2: that I would bet money there's somebody listening who is
Speaker 2: just like, well, I mean, according to this stat like
Speaker 2: that death was actually over this other thing, you know,
Speaker 2: and try to like split these hairs to say that
Speaker 2: it's not medical care someone was unable to receive during pregnancy,
Speaker 2: that actually that actually killed them, That it's not you
Speaker 2: know what we're saying that it is trying to split
Speaker 2: hairs with these stats or trying to paint them in
Speaker 2: a different way in order to argue that, you know,
Speaker 2: really the risks aren't as high as we're making it
Speaker 2: out to be. Women are just hysterical. It's really the
Speaker 2: upshot of that argument. Fundamentally, though, I guess.
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, these problems are solved like good old fashioned
Speaker 1: feminism actually acted out in our legal system and our
Speaker 1: culture and our society well.
Speaker 2: And it's interesting because I've had the argument with male
Speaker 2: members of my own family one that they are choosing
Speaker 2: policies where I could die, and that would be something
Speaker 2: they had chosen that I was in that system. They
Speaker 2: chose to make a system where I was more likely
Speaker 2: to die than I was before. That's sort of hard
Speaker 2: to swallow when that's like people that you really love
Speaker 2: and care about, you know, not all of my male relatives,
Speaker 2: but a decent number, and they are making these for
Speaker 2: avowed religious reasons. But I guess my life matters less.
Speaker 2: Straight up. That just seems to be true because that's
Speaker 2: the decision that they're making, and that Secondarily, we've talked
Speaker 2: about the fact that there is a death hole. No
Speaker 2: matter how we slice it, there's a death hole. How
Speaker 2: many women does it have to be before it's not
Speaker 2: okay with you anymore? You know, Like, is there a number?
Speaker 2: We're talking about black and white when it comes to
Speaker 2: human life? So what's that number of women? You know?
Speaker 2: How much can it increase that women die in childbirth,
Speaker 2: that women die from pregnancy related complications before you feel like, Okay,
Speaker 2: maybe maybe this is enough. I'll change my mind. You know,
Speaker 2: there's no number. They're not They're never going to be
Speaker 2: enough because it doesn't really matter to them.
Speaker 5: That's what I was thinking. Yeah, Yeah, that's what I
Speaker 5: was thinking when I really remember for them.
Speaker 1: Sorry, And I really just wanted to say that I
Speaker 1: heard what you said when a anecdote is not the
Speaker 1: same thing as data, that one person's personal story is
Speaker 1: not necessarily what we should be basing all of our
Speaker 1: you know, governmental and moral thinking upon. And I'm incredibly
Speaker 1: grateful to you for being willing to share yours with
Speaker 1: us and to put a voice, if not a face,
Speaker 1: to some of these issues that so often get gobbled
Speaker 1: up by the Internet into a bunch of men sitting
Speaker 1: around stroking their own beards, talking about what other people
Speaker 1: ought to be doing with their body. I really appreciate
Speaker 1: you joining us here.
Speaker 5: Oh, I appreciate you having me on and letting me
Speaker 5: get this out, because I've been listening to several of
Speaker 5: these shows and they bring up adoption. These prolite people
Speaker 5: just they bring up adoption like it's nothing, or they
Speaker 5: bring up that science fiction thing about well just take
Speaker 5: the fetus out and put it in an artificial womb,
Speaker 5: which that brings you know, which is like, okay, one,
Speaker 5: that's that can't happen. That doesn't happen, Probably not going
Speaker 5: to happen. But even if it could happen, then who
Speaker 5: then who is responsible for it?
Speaker 2: Yes, I almost asked that exact question. I was like,
Speaker 2: who's paying for the artificial womb? Who's who's on the
Speaker 2: who is it? The states like, yeah, anyway, I agree,
Speaker 2: imagining the whole life movements willingness to pay for that
Speaker 2: question Jesus.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So there's hypocrisy all around. We do have to
Speaker 1: still wrestle with these complex questions. There is no easy
Speaker 1: way to draw a strict moral line, but I think
Speaker 1: we are called upon to make moral judgments and hopefully
Speaker 1: not be judgmental of others when we don't know all
Speaker 1: the details of their situation and anything else you'd like
Speaker 1: to add, well.
Speaker 5: I just wanted to also. Fia discussed it about the religion.
Speaker 5: You know, these laws coming from religion, and we're not
Speaker 5: supposed to be that way in this country. It's the
Speaker 5: first thing in the constitution, but we are, unfortunately and
Speaker 5: religion in law in these abortion laws, is causing women
Speaker 5: to be prosecuted for having miscarriages.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, these are very real issues and points to
Speaker 1: what Sophia said about the lobbying a cudgel or an
Speaker 1: axe rather than a scalpel or a razor. And yeah,
Speaker 1: I do think that we can make good laws to
Speaker 1: try and prevent people from doing bad things. I think
Speaker 1: there is no person on earth who could reasonably say
Speaker 1: we have done that around the question of abortion. And
Speaker 1: certainly there are things that need to be revisited.
Speaker 2: Yep, yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1: So much for your time. You have a great rest
Speaker 1: of your weekend. All right, well, I want to make
Speaker 1: sure to bring Richard back in and check in here
Speaker 1: at the end of the show as we're getting him
Speaker 1: pulled up. Sophia, I guess I wanted to ask you about,
Speaker 1: you know, sort of that question hanging over our head
Speaker 1: about patriotism and Christianity, and this whole show being about
Speaker 1: abortion seems really tied to that idea. I mean, how
Speaker 1: does Christian nationalism factor into our entire abortion system?
Speaker 2: You have thirty seconds goo, okay, I would say that
Speaker 2: I really love your definition of Christian nationalism. Up at
Speaker 2: the top of the show, where America belongs to white
Speaker 2: Christians and should be ruled accordingly. I thought that was
Speaker 2: a great definition because I look at it and I'm like,
Speaker 2: I'm white, no longer Christian. I will only add into
Speaker 2: that white Christian males because my rights are not really
Speaker 2: thought about here. I would also point out that my
Speaker 2: undergrad is into political science. I know a lot about
Speaker 2: the Constitution. I've gotten just so many arguments with Christian
Speaker 2: nationalists where they say something is the Constitution and it's
Speaker 2: demonstrably not, because you know what I have in my
Speaker 2: purse at all times, a Constitution. I am a patriot.
Speaker 2: My family has been here since the fucking Mayflower. So
Speaker 2: you know, I guess you can't get more heritage American,
Speaker 2: which is basically just a white American anyway than me. Yes,
Speaker 2: I'm almost translucent. I am so white. I have as
Speaker 2: white Shot would say, gens so pure you could lick
Speaker 2: things off of them. And yet fuck you. Still, I
Speaker 2: am of these people. I know these people, I was
Speaker 2: raised around these people. I've been in these churches. I
Speaker 2: believe these things. I made those arguments for you. You
Speaker 2: are still wrong, and not only are you wrong, you
Speaker 2: are cruel and the cruelty is the point. Okay, all right, you've.
Speaker 1: Made good use of your thirty seconds. Goddamn, thank you
Speaker 1: so much, Richard. What do you have to add about
Speaker 1: the notion of American Christian nationalism, any of your thoughts
Speaker 1: about the show before we wrap up today.
Speaker 3: I just want to know if Texas is really the
Speaker 3: Republic of Gilead, because that's what it sounds like to me.
Speaker 1: You know, it feels that way sometimes. But now with
Speaker 1: legalized THHC, I guess so, I know, okay.
Speaker 2: So that we can be docile as.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, laws. You know, federalism is kind of in
Speaker 1: doubt when you live under some of the people I
Speaker 1: live under right now.
Speaker 3: But fair enough, Yeah, I think Gohan, I think there
Speaker 3: was a little bit of goal pulls moving going off
Speaker 3: to some of his responses. It was a good call
Speaker 3: overall to go back.
Speaker 1: And listen to it again. But I did feel like
Speaker 1: the argument shifted every ten minutes in that forty minute call.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it was a good call overall. Le's
Speaker 3: just I'm one thing I'm really interested in with him,
Speaker 3: and it didn't give pronouns. I don't know whether it's
Speaker 3: a him or what he claims.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I imagine go ahead and go ahead, go ahead
Speaker 1: lives their entire life, and their pronound based decision was
Speaker 1: not at all political.
Speaker 3: I'm interested because they've neversed it as to whether they
Speaker 3: are a Christian and to whether it is that Christianity
Speaker 3: that informs their beliefs on abortion. I'd been interested in
Speaker 3: that aspect of it, and on Great Call. One of
Speaker 3: the great things I like about the show, especially when
Speaker 3: i'm you know, getting the opportunity to listen to the callers,
Speaker 3: is just listening to perspectives that I cannot possibly have
Speaker 3: myself and learning from them. And and that was a fantastic,
Speaker 3: fantastic call with Anne. Great job. I really enjoyed it.
Speaker 3: Thanks guys.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely so. I want to make sure to remind
Speaker 1: people before we go out, just one last time, bid
Speaker 1: dot lee slash Austin Flood Fund where you can contribute
Speaker 1: to support people in Kerr County and the other affected
Speaker 1: areas here in central Texas. Richard, can you remind us
Speaker 1: what the question of the week is?
Speaker 3: Come on the full thing gope for this week is wrong,
Speaker 3: ANSWER's own way, Jesus blank for your sins, replying the
Speaker 3: comments and tune in at the beginning of next week's
Speaker 3: episode for the top three answers.
Speaker 1: All right, well, definitely, we are sending out our love
Speaker 1: rings to all of the people affected by the flooding
Speaker 1: here in central Texas, to everybody who's been affected by
Speaker 1: the Dobbs decision and are certainly inadequate adoption in foster
Speaker 1: care and medical health services for around pregnancy, anybody else
Speaker 1: you always send out lover rings to.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think you covered a lot of it.
Speaker 2: I'm thinking about Texas right now. Obviously we're very close
Speaker 2: to it, and yeah, that's a I think that's a
Speaker 2: good choice.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, absolutely loverings to the families of all
Speaker 3: those involved in that tragedy. And you know, let's you know,
Speaker 3: not let's not give them prayers, but let's hope that
Speaker 3: they can take strength and support from those around them,
Speaker 3: and you know, let's have There's this thing about the
Speaker 3: I've just read somewhere as the show was on about
Speaker 3: Texas didn't give aid to other states when when tragedies
Speaker 3: happen to them and they're appealing for aid now, and
Speaker 3: you know the post I read states that, well, we
Speaker 3: shouldn't be giving it. And because they didn't give fut
Speaker 3: that give them the aid and you know people needed
Speaker 3: and people need that support in this difficult time. It
Speaker 3: doesn't matter whether the Christian, whether the Conservative, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 3: You know people are suffering in Do the right thing
Speaker 3: and give them all the age you can, whether it's
Speaker 3: by donating, whether it's the government, channels, whatever, Let's help
Speaker 3: these people as much as we come.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, just remember the humans and the humanitarian disaster.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the good ones and the bad ones in the blue, red,
Speaker 1: purple ones, the humans.
Speaker 5: YEA.
Speaker 1: Not to tack this on, but I do want to
Speaker 1: send out quick lover rings to Vegan Aliens and Miranda Rensberger,
Speaker 1: our super chat supporters, one note saying, I want to
Speaker 1: thank the host last week for the supported words supportive
Speaker 1: words regarding veganism. My deconstruction led me to veganisms, so
Speaker 1: I appreciate the support here as well as great show.
Speaker 1: I can't believe it's already over. I will say the same.
Speaker 1: I'll remind people that they can still donate and help
Speaker 1: those affected, and then of course remind everybody watching that
Speaker 1: if you don't believe, this is your community and we
Speaker 1: appreciate you being here. If you do believe, we certainly
Speaker 1: don't hate you.
Speaker 6: Convinced we want the truth, so watch Truth Wanted live
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