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Speaker 1: What the silvers of errors are, because this is all

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like classic track as stuff. Now going back to the

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Ten Books book, which lists sixteen documents. If you want

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the easiest read to show that Vatican one, excuse me,

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that Vatican two contradicts pre Vatican two theology, you get

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the Ten Books book Popes against the Modern Errors, and

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the first one you're gonna read is marri Voss of

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Pope Gregor the sixteenth. Then you're gonna read Quantic Kurra

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of Pius the ninth, and then you'll see the Silvers

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of Errors of Pius the ninth, that's the one we

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just looked at. Then you're going to see Leo the

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thirteenth dea turnum Ilude, which, by the way, I've read

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all of Liela thirteenth and cyclicals, seven hundred page book.

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I read them all. Lie the thirteenth on Freemasonry Wjmanum

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janis the Nature of Liberty, Lieo the thirteenth, Libertus praise

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tantisimos prisetantissimum on the condition of the Working classes by

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Little thirteenth Rerem Navarum on Christian Democracy. Lee of the thirteenth,

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and then Lamentabile that we just looked at earlier, and

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then the famous and cyclical of Pius the tenth Pacindi

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dominici grages our apostolic mandate by Pius the tenth. This

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is the condemnation of the Selon movement, which, if I recall,

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was like a socialist movement, like an equalitarian socialist revolutionary movement.

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The oath against modernism that Pius the tenth mandated feast

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of Christ the King quas primos, which you've heard me

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reference many many times on fostering true unity mortalium animos.

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This condemns interfaith gatherings as apostacy, which I've cited into

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infinity against Romancholics on atheistic communism by Pious the ninth.

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Divini redemntoris whom I jennaris by Pius the twelfth. This

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is the one that allows for a theistic evolution. So ironically,

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even though it allows for theistic evolution, it is intended

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to be a condemnation of certain errors of modernism. So

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that's why it's concluded in that book. So again, hopefully

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I know that Roman Catholics don't read their books anymore,

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but all the way up into the syllabus of errors,

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you're still bound by the temporal supremacy of the Roman

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bishop doctrine. And I've never heard about a continued person

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and teach this anymore. Jonathan Towery twenty bucks. An image

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of Jesus is not Jesus, an image created to represent

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values and beliefs of a painter. No, that's not our iconography.

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So I don't know where you get that idea. Jesus

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does not represent God. Well, now you're an aran, so

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you just expose yourself as an aerian ac twenty dollars.

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What's up, man, Thank you so much. Curse work, one dollar.

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I've requested to speak. I don't know who you are.

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There's like ten people, eight people in here. Cursed work.

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Oh there you are, cursed world. Excuse me? What's up? Dude?

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Got on? Mute man?

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Speaker 2: Hey, can you hear me?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what's on your mind?

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Speaker 3: Hey, Pastor Randy, thanks for taking my call. So I'm

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not too long in the Orthodox world. I was brought

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into the church a little over a year ago. Well,

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my parents, who did a good faithful job of raising

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me at least in the Protestant Church to the best

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of their ability, the best of their knowledge.

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Speaker 2: They're kind of interested.

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Speaker 3: Me and my brother both converted, and so one of

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these hang ups that my dad has, I'd like to

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kind of argue that on his behalf, because I think

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he's arguing in good faith or at least trying to

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test these waters.

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Speaker 2: He's picked up a couple of books. But the thing

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that he kind of hits me with and I don't.

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Speaker 3: Really feel equipped to respond to it very well, is

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kind of a challenge of the Iconoclast period. And his

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argument goes something like, Hey, you keep telling me that

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the church has uh that the gates of Hell will

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not and have not prevailed against the Church, But what

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about this period where maybe a large portion or maybe

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even a majority of those representing the church in an

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official capacity condemned the use of icons And so I

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never really know what's I mean.

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Speaker 1: No different than so in the fourth century, the majority

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of the church became Aryan and semiarian right, and so

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Nicia is what helped to solve that. But even after

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Nicia it wasn't completely gone. You still had Eunomians even

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into the time of Basil and the Cappadocians after Nicea.

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So but the majority hold that the Aryans had all

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the empire and their heresy was dead and dying after that,

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even though they continued on. So the claim about the

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church not having the gates fell prevail against it has

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nothing to do with numbers and percentages. What it means

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is that you will never extinguish the episcopae. There will

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always be orthodox bishops continuing the true faith. Okay, there's

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no promise to any specific area that the one in

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Rome will never fail or the one I mean again

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Romans eleven. Paul warns the Church of Rome that they

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can be grafted out. Why would he warn them if

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they could never fail? So you have these situations where

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you know, entire regions can go into schism and leave

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the church, And just because the majority of the empire

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at a certain time becomes involved in error, whether it's

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the airing crisis or the Iconoclass crisis, does not defeat

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the meaning of the Gates of Hell will not prevail

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because it's not a question of majority. It just means

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that you can't stamp out the true faith.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 3: So when he follows up and is kind of like,

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and I know he's being sort of tongue in chicic,

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but if he's like well, how do you know that

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you're not in one of those periods now where you

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know a false How do you know what's.

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Speaker 1: Worth Because if I go to every ecumenical council, I

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can read the canons and the decrees of those councils.

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They're not that long, and every council states and explains

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that their intention is to be consistent with the previous council.

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So when I read Nicia, and I read Constantinople one,

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and I read Ephesis, and I read calcilit on, and

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I read Constantinople two and three, and I see A two,

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And then when I read the Focian Council, and when

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I read the Palmite Synod's like, the theology is the same.

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Speaker 4: Okay, all right, appreciate you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And if you read the Seventh Council, for example, if

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you read a St. Theodore the Studites book on the

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icons or if you read John Damascus's book on Holy Images, like,

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you'll notice that the arguments for the iconography is out

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of the chrystological pronouncements of the free previous councils. The

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energies doctrine and the divine hypostasis doctrine is the pre

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subposition and the apologetic basis for the way that Theodore

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and Saint John Damascus argue iconography.

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Speaker 2: Luther, Hey, can you hear me?

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Speaker 4: All right?

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Speaker 5: We talked last week about the Philioquay and a little

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bit about nominalism and the Protestants.

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Speaker 4: I've been doing some research on the.

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Speaker 5: Phillyoquay and got to be honest, I don't love the

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whole aspiration from the essence of God, isn't Isn't that

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what Aquinas proposes?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? So not loving that.

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Speaker 5: But I wonder is there any any permissibility from the

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east an orthodox point of view of procession from the

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Father through the son in an ontological sense.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the definition of the Council of blacker name.

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Speaker 4: Oh all right, I was going to ask your thoughts on.

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Speaker 1: But that does not mean that does not mean that

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the son is a co cause or a secondary cause.

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The Father is the soul Christ.

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Speaker 2: Right, It would not fit the more.

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Speaker 5: Technical definition of the word for proceeds, correct, not the

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kind of Yeah, and if you want the document, if

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you want the document that it's not very long to read.

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Speaker 1: On that very point. It's called the condemnation, or it's

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called the tomos against John Becco's.

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Speaker 5: All right, great, yep, well that was That was shorter

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than I thought it would be. But I also ordered

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that that book you recommended.

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Speaker 2: Was it was it o.

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Speaker 1: Ye Haiko Oberman's book Harvest of Medieval Theology, where he

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points out that Luther relied on William of Oakham and

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Gabriel Bile for his nominalist positions. Correct.

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Speaker 5: All right, Is that related to a volunteerist view of God?

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Speaker 1: Yes, because William of Aukam argues that volunteers theological voluntarism

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means that God can just declare natures to be the

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opposite of themselves when he's so desires. So what makes

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something what it is is simply the divine will or decree.

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It's very similar to Islam. And so if God wills,

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for example, to suddenly dam the Virgin marry after having

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saved her, he can do that because God's will is

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what determines nature's. It's not that God creates natures and

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lets those natures be self determining. He arbitrarily can change natures.

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And this is why Luther found that useful for even

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his doctrine of the Lord's Supper.

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Speaker 5: All right, well, I'm waiting on that book to show

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up because I couldn't find a digital version online.

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Speaker 4: So I'll read that and see what I think about it.

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Speaker 2: But I would at.

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Speaker 5: Least at this point I would push back a bit

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on Luther being voluntarist, and I would I would point that,

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I would point you to that when he speaks of

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God's will, he considers it immutable. So it's not that

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God can ever will in a way that is contrary

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to his eternal nature.

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Speaker 1: And no, that's not what the that's not what that's

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that's not what the debate is. The vetas the Beta

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is about created natures, whether or not they have their

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own natural properties that make them what they are, which

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would be a essentialist position versus the nominalist position that

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God determines at any instance what the nature of that

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thing is by pure divine will. So, in other words,

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if God wants to, he can make created things into

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their opposite, or he can make created things into uh,

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evil things, perhaps because they're not there. Things do not

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have natures, is the.

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Speaker 5: Point, all right, So it would be like a non

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realist that is that another term for essentialists?

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Speaker 1: Yes, all right, well, nominalism is denying that creative things

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have essences or natures that make them what they are.

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It's just simply saying that we when we talk about

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essences their natures, those are verbal terms that we give

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to those things. That's a hence no name, non nominalism, namism,

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not essentialism.

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Speaker 4: All right, Well, that book's on the way, so I might.

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I might read it, and then I might.

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Speaker 1: I don't feel free to come about.

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Speaker 5: I'll let you know if I'm convinced by it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, come back. I mean, it's just one It's not

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like everything hinges on that one book. That's just one

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book about Luther's influence from that system. And I'm not

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saying that that means that Luther's consistent with it. He's

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not like some radical nominalists. He just utilizes it for

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these types of issues to help boast vulturous theology. What's up, Jonathan, Jonathan,

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you want to I mute Jordan. Guys who want to

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support the stream, you can do so by the super

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chat function. Superchests are done natively through YouTube or through stream,

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and I'll give you guys link stream lives. Link is pinned,

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but you can also superjet right here. What's up, Jordan, guys,

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you gotta turn your MIC's on. I don't like so

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this is not for today. We're looking for disagree, not

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all the ortho ros Matt Pete.

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Speaker 6: What's up, man, Matt? I'm mute.

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Speaker 4: I did can you hear me?

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Speaker 2: Now? Yeah? Hey?

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Speaker 7: Jay?

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Speaker 1: How you doing?

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Speaker 2: I'm good? Thank god?

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Speaker 8: Jay.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to two things.

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Speaker 9: The first thing I wanted to mention is I listened

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to some of your live streams in the past who

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had the UNI on them the other day, and then

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prior to that, I listened to some Christian Zionist who

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was like intellectually limited. So my first question to you

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is do you have a problem getting more substantial people

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on to debate, like Scott Hand for instance.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I don't think we've had a quality person offer

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in a good while. I don't think Scott Hand does

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manymore many debates anymore. I don't remember the last prominent

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Roman Catholic where I was trying to set up a

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discussion with Michael Knowles. I don't think Michael Knowles was

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interested in that. So I think it's just going to

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be me and Tim Gordon.

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Speaker 9: Okay, because it's that so many of them. I remember

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another one with Pastor p I think his name was,

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But so much of this it almost seems like God

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forgive me juvenile delinquency almost like you know, and anyway,

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I think you can do better if you can find

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you know, it was just cool.

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Speaker 1: Well, I definitely think you're right that. Like, ideally, if

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we were in you know, more of a normal situation,

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we would have better quality opponents. But I think we've

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just gotten to a point where everything is just so

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kind of crazy and everybody's so emotional reactionary, and you know,

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the protest and Catholic worlds. You know, Orthodoxy has his problems,

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but the Protests and Catholic worlds are just kind of

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like collapsing. So, you know, I asked, I mean, Calvin

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Robinson is an intelligent man. He's got four hundred thousand followers.

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I asked him, in a very simple civil way, would

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you like to do a formal debate? And he lost it.

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So it's like people are just not able to handle

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this stuff anymore. Jonathan M. Hello, yeah, what something man?

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Speaker 10: Oh?

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Speaker 11: Sorry, the uh for some reason exbooted me out for

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some reason after I you the So I gotta.

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Speaker 4: Question about something. I want to see if my argument.

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Speaker 11: Is good or not because I've never really tested it yet.

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Speaker 2: But the uh, the.

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Speaker 11: Question of icons and the paintings of Jesus and things

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like that, So.

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Speaker 2: What is it? Let's see, So like, would.

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Speaker 11: You agree that when you see a picture of Jesus

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that's obviously not Jesus, correct.

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Speaker 4: Right, So so then who would that be then in

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your opinion.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's an image of Jesus, it's a type prototype relationship.

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Speaker 11: Yeah, so he's My argument is that, like the painter

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is not creating a picture of Jesus, He's creating a

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picture of the values of the of the time period

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and of the commissioner and what he's trying to draw across.

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Speaker 4: It's kind of like how Buddha.

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Speaker 11: The statue of Buddha is like fat in one country.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but that's not how Orthodox iconography works. Like, we're

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not like Jesuits who paint Chinese Jesus and black Jesus.

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If you look at most Orthodox icons, there's a pretty

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unified standard as to what Jesus looks like.

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Speaker 11: So then would you be against Roman Catholic depictions of

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Jesus versus Orthodox depictions or does it matter?

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Speaker 1: I mean, I just mentioned the Roman Catholic tradition of

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deviating by making Asian Jesus black Jesus. I just said that,

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are you there? Are you there? I guess maybe you've

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got a bad signal. So I mean, look, anybody. You

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can't stop people from doing paintings, right, But in Orthodox

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iconographic tradition there's rules and there's strictures on this. We

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don't do like Jesuits do historically and famously, and then

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many other Roman Catholics, Chinese Jesus and black Jesus. It's

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not done because it's not true. Jesus was a Hebrew.

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He's of a certain lineage. The Gospels make it very clear,

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and it's very important as to who his descent was from.

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He has to be from the line of David. So

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he can't be a black dude. He can't be an

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Asian dude. It's a lie, even if it's good intentioned,

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because it's gnostic. It denies his Ethnos via his real

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incarnate state, his lineage, which the Gospels make very and stress,

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and the Orthodox tradition has almost always imaged Jesus in

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this same way. So you can't do black Jesus. There's

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no Aborigine Jesus. That is a lie to do, So Pat,

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what's up? Job five dollars? Can you do a Pastor

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Randy Balls larp stream where you are against Protestants using

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their own system like Jim Bob did with Christos his

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new age persona. I'll think about that. I might do

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a a Brandy ballstream could be funny. Maximum nine one

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one gifts a membership. What's up? Shout out to the

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new members and I think that that was the same

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guy that's left the super chat. So I appreciate your

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super chat, Jonathan. I wasn't trying to be rude, but

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it looks like you have a bad connection, so you

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dropped out, Pat. What's upthing is white Jesus? Ali uh,

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Jesus is this person that you see here? So people

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from the levant, people from that area can have light skin,

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or they can have more olive skin. So you're deflecting

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into something that doesn't even matter. White Jesus. Orthodox icnography

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pictures him as a Hebrew person. He's not a black person.

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What's up?

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Speaker 2: Pat?

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Speaker 1: A mute Heisenberg Mormon sasquatch? One dollar? We need you

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to give a take on doctor Michael Cook Cheney he's

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a Protestant who called out Sam Chamun. He makes interesting

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biblical points. It's it's never ending of when you're going

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to respond to this Protestant dude. You under said there's

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an infinite like there's an infinity of Protestants and they

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all make the same arguments. So how about we just

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use the same refutation videos? Why don't you guty to

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go clip them? I'm trying to make sure I didn't

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miss any super chests. What's up?

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Speaker 7: Man?

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Speaker 1: Are you there? Heisenberg?

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Speaker 2: Hey?

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Speaker 12: Jay?

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Speaker 4: What's up?

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Speaker 6: Hey?

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Speaker 13: Two very quick questions and I'll be out of here.

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I watching your lives and I've seen like a lot

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of your book recommendations on like theology, but I was

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wondering if you have any on like philosophy and like

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towards atheism per se.

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Speaker 1: There's a couple of good books like Paul Davies's book

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Mind of God. That's a good if you're an atheist,

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that would be a good challenge. Yeah, like that, human,

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what's up? When are you going to refuse Joel Ostin? Exactly?

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It's like when are you going to review the Righteous Gemstones?

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What's up?

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Speaker 8: Man?

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Speaker 1: Human? Unmute? Can nobody work Twitter today, King anime, what's up?

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I think Twitter was was having trouble today. Maybe it's

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not working right? You want to unmute hey?

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Speaker 4: All right?

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Speaker 7: So about the gain cover of Jesus and I don't

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think it actually matters, but I'm curious because you make.

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Speaker 4: It seem like he's factual with that.

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Speaker 7: He looked the way he does in the Orthodox pictures, right,

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So I'm curious what this one.

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Speaker 1: That it's an Orthodox tradition, So is it.

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Speaker 7: Like the So you're saying there's no like Biblical takes

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back that upward.

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Speaker 1: Well, if it's an or our tradition, then it's not

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explicitly in the Bible now, so we don't believe that

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the only guide for the church is what's written in

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the Bible.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 7: And on the death penalty, I heard you talk about

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the death penalty before. Not just sure about your position

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on it, but what do you think about the situation

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where the woman calling adultry Jesus, you know, basically said

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he who hasn't saying it can be the first one

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that goes the storm. Do you think that's like against

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the death penalty?

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Speaker 2: No?

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Speaker 1: Because in Romans thirteen, Paul pretty clearly advocates explicitly for

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the death penalty, that the state has the right of

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the sword. So, and there's other places where Paul talks

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about the death penalty that he says in Romans won

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that certain people they deserve death for these actions. So

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the death penalty is taught in the New te The

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woman caught in adultery was a setup to try to

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trap Jesus, and Jesus, being the ultimate judge of the universe,

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can also commit someone's commute someone's sentence, and forgive them

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as he did with the woman. So there's nothing in

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that instance that reverses or does away with the rest

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of the New Testament and Old Testament passages that legitimate

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the death penalty. And in fact, many of the early

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Church Fathers also continue the teaching of the death penalty.

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It's really not until much later and then certain sort

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of Protestant pacifist circles that you even get people saying

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that it's wrong to have the death penalty.

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Speaker 7: Okay, and last question, I think I heard you say

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and when you were debating Nicko Fointez or I'm not

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sure exactly what debated was, but about certain like counsels

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Orthodox counsels, being like, there is a possibility that some

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of them can be wrong and you reject those Is

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that true?

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Speaker 1: Well, they wouldn't be Orthodox counsels if we reject them.

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So no, an Orthodox council by definition is going to

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be Orthodox. It's going to be teaching what's true. But

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there have been false counsels. But everybody admits that, whether

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you're Protestant, Roman, Catholic Orthodox, everybody agrees that there are

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false counsels. So the question is, well, how do we

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know and what sort of validates a true council? And

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that's going to be different whether you're Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox.

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All right, thanks, yeah, good questions. Ed, what's up? Man?

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What's up? Ed Griffon nice Strom five dollars. I love

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your stuff. I only click away when the person that

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you debate is annoying to listen to. Well, thanks man,

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I appreciate that. I think today has been pretty much

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solid people. We didn't have any crazy wackos. Everybody was

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pretty cool. I'm pretty chill. Patrick two five dollars. I

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don't understand something. And the lecture that you did on Daniel,

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you said that part of John's Apocalypse is warning about Nero.

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In a later stream, you said it was about ninety

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five AD. No, I don't believe that. I've always believed

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that the Apocalypse was written prior to seventy a D.

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Because I believed since two thousand and one in a

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partial prederres view. So I'm not sure where you're saying

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that I said in a later stream the Apocalypse is

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about ninety five a D. I mean, I may have

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misspoke or said something like saying that the latest date

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that people give to John's apocalypse is towards the end

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of the first century. But I don't believe that John.

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What's up, man, somebody was fussing about some other minor

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thing that I misspoke the other day. And it's like, guys,

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if you do like multiple four or five hour live

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streams or debates all the time, like you're gonna misstate stuff.

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And I sometimes I hear if I listen back to

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a podcast, Yeah, every now and then I'll misstate something, Okay,

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but like that's not the end of the world, And

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it's if you tell me or if you have a question,

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I can explain it or how I perhaps misstated it.

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But in most of these cases it's actually people misunderstood

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what I said. But I do sometimes misstate things, sure,

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everybody does. I mean that's part of being a fallible

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human is that you're gonna misstate something. But I don't

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remember believing in a late date for the Apocalypse. The

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last time I believe that was like two thousand and two,

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because once I read or no, even before that, I

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read Gentry's book, and I read Chiltern's book, and I

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read the four or five other partial preadorist books in

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probably two thousand, So I've been partial predist before nine eleven.

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Speaker 2: Dogs.

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Speaker 1: So if I said that John's apartoss was written in

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ninety five, ad oh, I know what you're talking about.

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I know what you're saying. What I said was in

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the Daniel lecture. I said, even the latest dating of

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Daniel or the Apocalypse still has things that would be

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admitted to be prophetic because of what happens in the

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Roman Empire becoming christian for example, you know all that

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the empire under which the Messiah is born becomes Christianized, Right,

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that's the vision of Daniel and Daniel two. Even if

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you date Daniel to Maccabee's time, which is the liberal dating,

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it's still prophetic. So maybe you misunderstood the argument I

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was making, and I said, even if you date the

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Revelation of John to the late date, it's still prophetic

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for elements of things like the Christianizing of the Roman

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Empire and what Christianity would achieve in history. I was

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not saying I believe the ninety five eighty dating. What's up, John?

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Speaker 10: Hey are you doing?

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Speaker 14: I guess you can hear me?

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Speaker 1: Okay, huh, all right.

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Speaker 14: I wanted to get your position on Christian nationalism.

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Speaker 4: I don't know if that's something you hold, but my.

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Speaker 14: Question regarding that would be, how would if such a

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Christian nationalist type scenario were to come about with an

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Orthodox type leadership, how would the Catholic and Protestant church's

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fair under that.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that only exists when you have a majority

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of the population being Orthodox, so it's not even really

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a relevant question. I mean, I do believe that nation

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states when the vast majority of the people are Orthodox,

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the state, through what's called symphonia, should reflect those values.

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And that's what Roman Catholics and even some Protestants used

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to believe. At least Classical Reformation people believe that the

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state had a duty to God as well, even in

471
00:30:25,559 --> 00:30:29,400
Protestant Nation States. So yes, the traditional teaching of the church,

472
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:33,359
whether you're Roman, Catholic, Protestant, or Orthodox, is some type

473
00:30:33,799 --> 00:30:38,440
of Christian nationalism and or Christian Orthodox imperium that was

474
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:40,240
the norm throughout the Byzantine period.

475
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:44,519
Speaker 14: Okay, I was just curious to see what you thought

476
00:30:44,519 --> 00:30:46,519
about that. There's been a lot of that on Twitter

477
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:49,000
x recently, and so his for you to ask.

478
00:30:49,039 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 4: Thanks for having me on man.

479
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:55,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's there's a lot of traps I

480
00:30:55,839 --> 00:30:58,119
think going on with that stuff too, because we're not

481
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:01,079
at a period when this is really a viable thing.

482
00:31:02,039 --> 00:31:06,200
And so I don't agree with James Lindsay on his

483
00:31:07,839 --> 00:31:12,279
Enlightenment stuff, but I do think that there are people

484
00:31:12,359 --> 00:31:16,599
who could conceivably conceivably be entrapped through some kind of

485
00:31:16,839 --> 00:31:22,000
wild Christian nationalism. This could just not even relevant to now.

486
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:26,400
That could be breeding grounds for fed stuff. But that

487
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:30,160
does not mean that I believe that there's some sort

488
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:34,200
of pacifism or No. No, there ought to be a

489
00:31:34,599 --> 00:31:39,039
Christian imperium when the majority of the people are Christian.

490
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:41,720
We don't live in that right now, So if that

491
00:31:41,799 --> 00:31:47,200
ever happens that's like way down the road, Jonathan, what's up?

492
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:52,200
I mean, Christianity is not a go after the state

493
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:55,279
and enforce the type of thing. It's a bottom up.

494
00:31:55,359 --> 00:31:59,559
You convert people the way that we do it, and

495
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:02,240
if from the majority of the people are Orthodox, then

496
00:32:02,279 --> 00:32:05,160
you get a Christian state. What's up?

497
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:05,359
Speaker 2: Man?

498
00:32:07,519 --> 00:32:08,519
Speaker 4: Hey can hear me? Okay?

499
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:11,799
Speaker 6: Yeah, all right, Hey, I had a question.

500
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:16,279
Speaker 15: So I am promisant, but I have listened to you,

501
00:32:16,519 --> 00:32:17,359
so I'm curious.

502
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 16: You know, haven't read anything, so pretty much just taktok

503
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:20,839
brain rot here.

504
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 15: What do you think about the gates of Hell referring

505
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:26,880
to an actual physical location.

506
00:32:31,519 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 1: I don't find that very convincing, because you know a

507
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:38,799
lot of times that you have a patristic exegesis and

508
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,240
the church fathers refer to the gates of Hell as

509
00:32:41,279 --> 00:32:42,440
the mouths of the heretics.

510
00:32:44,799 --> 00:32:45,599
Speaker 10: Okay, got it?

511
00:32:46,039 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 16: And then what about how God.

512
00:32:48,759 --> 00:32:51,039
Speaker 4: Interfaces with the culture over time?

513
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:56,799
Speaker 15: Does is it necessary to be orthomous to be saved?

514
00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:59,680
Or you know, I mean I heard you earlier state

515
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:02,200
that to MUCHO much is given, much is required.

516
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 4: But I now have heard.

517
00:33:03,759 --> 00:33:07,960
Speaker 16: Written office requirements and am not inclined to pursue it.

518
00:33:09,319 --> 00:33:12,400
You know, probably because I just enjoy the freedom that

519
00:33:12,559 --> 00:33:16,759
I think Protestants in grants week, I recognize there's a

520
00:33:16,759 --> 00:33:18,480
lot of cognitive dissonance.

521
00:33:18,079 --> 00:33:21,039
Speaker 2: Within it from hearing your arguments.

522
00:33:21,079 --> 00:33:23,640
Speaker 1: Your thoughts on that. Well, I mean, I think that's

523
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:27,519
a bad reason to remain Protestant because of quote freedom.

524
00:33:27,599 --> 00:33:29,480
I mean, I don't even know what that means, because

525
00:33:29,519 --> 00:33:33,200
that could mean to live a skittles lifestyle, that could

526
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,319
mean all kinds of things. I'm not saying I'm being serious.

527
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:38,599
I mean, I'm not saying that's what you mean. I'm

528
00:33:38,599 --> 00:33:41,559
just saying, like, I don't know what that means. And

529
00:33:41,599 --> 00:33:43,599
so I don't think just an appeal to some sort

530
00:33:43,599 --> 00:33:47,440
of amorphous, abstracted notion of freedom is any kind of

531
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:51,519
coherent justification from why Orthodoxy isn't the true Church. I

532
00:33:51,559 --> 00:33:54,680
think what you need to look at is what church

533
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:56,519
put the bubble together? What did the Christians of the

534
00:33:56,519 --> 00:34:00,440
first thousand years believe? And if you're wanting to card

535
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:04,000
do for a sort of a you know, tailor made

536
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:08,039
buffet style approach, well that's the definition of a heritic

537
00:34:08,119 --> 00:34:09,400
or schismatic.

538
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:11,280
Speaker 2: Joe Ed.

539
00:34:23,199 --> 00:34:26,039
Speaker 1: Jay one dollar. Is there a prophecy that Rome will

540
00:34:26,079 --> 00:34:30,800
return to orthodoxy. I don't know that's I don't I

541
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:33,079
don't know. There could be I'm not aware of that.

542
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:40,239
What's up man? Did you turn your mic on? Hey?

543
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:40,639
Speaker 2: You're there?

544
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:42,800
Speaker 1: Ye, what's on your mind?

545
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,480
Speaker 4: So? I know it's a little off topic.

546
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 17: But the Christian nationalism thing, like if you had a

547
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:53,320
magic wand then you had the choice between having separation

548
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,599
of church and state in America or in the West

549
00:34:56,599 --> 00:35:03,840
in general, versus a orthodox based nationalist country, what would

550
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:04,440
you choose?

551
00:35:04,679 --> 00:35:06,119
Speaker 2: And have to quick follow up on that.

552
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 1: Well, again, it would only work when the majority of

553
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:17,119
the population follows and believes the religion.

554
00:35:17,599 --> 00:35:18,840
Speaker 2: So if.

555
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,800
Speaker 17: Yeah, okay, cool, I'm glad to hear that. And then

556
00:35:24,159 --> 00:35:25,880
those on like Project twenty twenty.

557
00:35:25,599 --> 00:35:26,079
Speaker 1: Five and.

558
00:35:27,639 --> 00:35:34,119
Speaker 17: The the budget director I think his name is Islamic

559
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:38,440
last names like Vault. He was caught on a undercover camera.

560
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:40,719
I'm talking about how he's trying to slide in a

561
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:47,920
lot of like evangelical fundamentalist type of policies.

562
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:50,159
Speaker 2: And kind of like not maybe.

563
00:35:50,119 --> 00:35:56,719
Speaker 17: Hijack or secretly hijack Trump's administration with some of his policies,

564
00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:59,119
and you're seeing some of that actually come true.

565
00:35:59,199 --> 00:36:03,039
Speaker 4: What's your thoughts on five and the cur administration.

566
00:36:04,639 --> 00:36:07,440
Speaker 1: I've heard people talk about this. I haven't put much

567
00:36:08,079 --> 00:36:10,679
thought into it. I don't think that you're actually going

568
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:16,400
to get an evangelical theocracy. I mean, I think that's

569
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:19,199
kind of crazy, but I mean it sounds like something

570
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:22,079
that the left is just sort of creating into a

571
00:36:22,119 --> 00:36:27,760
giant bugaboo. It's probably a nothing burger. So, but I

572
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:32,360
haven't like read through it or whatever. I doubt that

573
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:37,320
that would go very far. So I'm looking for people

574
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,119
who disagree it's our last chance. I see a lot

575
00:36:40,119 --> 00:36:46,400
of people who agree. We're not taking orthodox calls right now. Walter,

576
00:36:46,519 --> 00:37:00,239
what's up? Gonna on? Mute? Walt Walter on you?

577
00:37:02,599 --> 00:37:02,880
Speaker 17: Oh why?

578
00:37:03,679 --> 00:37:03,840
Speaker 16: Why?

579
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:04,280
Speaker 2: What's up?

580
00:37:05,039 --> 00:37:05,079
Speaker 4: So?

581
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:08,800
Speaker 18: I've been watching your debate with Alex Malpass on the

582
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:12,000
Losso logic. I think it's a very interesting topic. So

583
00:37:12,639 --> 00:37:14,280
I was wondering if I could ask a couple of

584
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:15,079
questions about it.

585
00:37:17,119 --> 00:37:19,599
Speaker 1: That was six seven years ago, but I'll try to

586
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:21,679
remember as much as I can. Go ahead.

587
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:23,760
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's a basic question.

588
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:28,760
Speaker 18: So what At one point he said that I can't

589
00:37:29,039 --> 00:37:32,320
talk us about a priori truths and things that are

590
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:36,679
truth according to the definition of words and gives the

591
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:39,679
example of the truth a square.

592
00:37:39,519 --> 00:37:40,159
Speaker 4: Is a polygon.

593
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:43,239
Speaker 18: That's just truth by bility of the definition of the

594
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:46,960
square and polygon. So my question is, could it be that,

595
00:37:47,199 --> 00:37:50,000
for example, I think it's identical to itself.

596
00:37:50,639 --> 00:37:52,079
Speaker 2: Could it be that it's just true.

597
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:54,079
Speaker 18: By built by the definition of the war identical.

598
00:37:55,639 --> 00:37:59,559
Speaker 1: I didn't hear the last part. Why now, I mean, for.

599
00:37:59,639 --> 00:38:03,920
Speaker 18: Example, or let's take law, the law of identity, I

600
00:38:04,039 --> 00:38:09,559
think is identical with itself? Right, maybe that I think

601
00:38:09,639 --> 00:38:13,960
this is a trivial truth from the definition of identical,

602
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:16,039
and it recall is no grounding.

603
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:21,320
Speaker 1: What would you say about this, Well, it's missing the

604
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:25,760
point about what grounding is. I mean, saying that something

605
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:30,199
is true by definition still doesn't ground it, because well,

606
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:33,159
how do we know that it's a true proposition just

607
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:36,599
because it appears to be self referencing or true. I mean,

608
00:38:37,119 --> 00:38:40,239
that's really just missing the point of what self evidence is. Like,

609
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:42,199
it's not a question of so if you say A

610
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:45,639
equals A, is it self evident? Yeah, in a limited sense,

611
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:48,880
but it's still not solving the criteria problem, right, So

612
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:53,719
it's not addressing the epistemic question of justification. When you

613
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:57,679
say stuff like okay, well, A equals A seems self evident.

614
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:04,079
Speaker 18: Okay, I see, Okay, Well I have a second question.

615
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:10,639
So when atheists ask Christians, okay, why can't God make

616
00:39:10,679 --> 00:39:14,000
a stone so heavy that he cannot lift it? What

617
00:39:14,199 --> 00:39:17,920
Christians usually say is, oh, he cannot do it, because

618
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,039
this is this contracts the loss of logic. But this

619
00:39:21,519 --> 00:39:26,480
implies that the loss of logic govern God. They limit

620
00:39:26,599 --> 00:39:29,719
gods of nipoptance, So I mean, how could they be

621
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:32,239
granted in him if they actually go earned him?

622
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:35,920
Speaker 1: They covert him just like the That's not the route

623
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:40,599
I would take. It's a question of the word omnipotence,

624
00:39:40,639 --> 00:39:44,159
and so they're importing a definition for the term that's

625
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:48,239
alien to and not what the system would determine. So,

626
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:52,559
if Christianity is true, if God exists, then what omnipotence

627
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:54,800
is is going to be conditioned by who he is,

628
00:39:55,519 --> 00:39:59,000
his nature, his character, and so in the Christian definition,

629
00:39:59,559 --> 00:40:02,639
God doesn't contradict himself and doesn't lie. Paul says, is

630
00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:06,440
impossible for God to lie. So God cannot create a

631
00:40:06,559 --> 00:40:10,679
rock that's bigger than he is, or impossible to lift

632
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:14,800
or whatever, because it's a outside of the nature of

633
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:16,320
God's determination.

634
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:23,400
Speaker 18: Okay, I see maybe one just one last question. What

635
00:40:23,559 --> 00:40:27,480
if someone say that the fucks that logic also logic,

636
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:28,800
but facts.

637
00:40:30,079 --> 00:40:32,800
Speaker 1: Well, just asserting that they are the case doesn't tell

638
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:35,519
me that that that's the case. That's an assertion. So

639
00:40:35,599 --> 00:40:39,079
how does that solve the criteria problem? So we have

640
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:42,199
this question come up at the beginning. Criteria problem is

641
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:45,679
if you assert that you have knowledge, that assumes there's

642
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:49,519
some criteria of knowledge or what counts as knowledge. But

643
00:40:49,679 --> 00:40:52,639
to say that you have a criteria knowledge before having

644
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:56,400
knowledge is itself a knowledge claim. So the criteria problem

645
00:40:56,599 --> 00:40:59,880
is never addressed by people who just assert that, well,

646
00:41:00,119 --> 00:41:03,400
that's just self evident, says who how do we know why?

647
00:41:05,559 --> 00:41:06,519
Speaker 2: Okay, thanks here.

648
00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:09,880
Speaker 1: So they're just sort of like ad hoc arbitrary assertions,

649
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:14,400
and you can't do that in philosophy. Eric, what's up, guys?

650
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:15,800
In remind you head on over to chalk dot com.

651
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:18,719
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663
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:57,239
What's up, man, Hey, how are you good? What's on

664
00:41:57,360 --> 00:41:57,679
your mind?

665
00:41:58,599 --> 00:41:59,639
Speaker 2: Okay, so this is.

666
00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:03,519
Speaker 19: In the realm of disagreement, but with an open mind,

667
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:10,800
trying to understand the Eastern Orthodox slash Catholic position.

668
00:42:10,639 --> 00:42:12,159
Speaker 2: On the Eucharist.

669
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:15,880
Speaker 4: Okay, And so I know they're probably.

670
00:42:15,559 --> 00:42:18,840
Speaker 19: Slightly different, but it's somewhat similar in just in layman

671
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:22,719
terms that you guys believe that the Eucharist becomes the

672
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:26,039
actual body of Christ and the blood.

673
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:26,639
Speaker 4: The actual blood.

674
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:27,840
Speaker 10: Right, So.

675
00:42:30,079 --> 00:42:32,719
Speaker 19: It's just I know, it's kind of a basic question,

676
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:35,039
and you're probably tired of going over this.

677
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:35,800
Speaker 4: No.

678
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:39,079
Speaker 1: I like this question because it's a very clear way

679
00:42:39,159 --> 00:42:42,360
to demonstrate the necessity of the essence entergy distinction, because

680
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:44,119
if you don't have it, then you don't have the

681
00:42:44,199 --> 00:42:46,960
real presence, and any Roman Catholic that you talk to

682
00:42:47,559 --> 00:42:50,400
will agree that the Eucharist is not the essence of God.

683
00:42:50,639 --> 00:42:53,280
Nobody's eating the essence of God. And if you read

684
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:55,519
Cyril in the two Letters to sixth Census, and if

685
00:42:55,519 --> 00:42:58,519
you read the decree the Anathemas of Ephesus, you'll see

686
00:42:58,559 --> 00:43:01,679
that the argument about the Eucharist is a pretty strong

687
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:05,800
clincher argument. And if you read Cyril, it's only sensible

688
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:08,320
if you believe in the essenceyenter distinction, which Rome doesn't.

689
00:43:08,519 --> 00:43:10,920
So I would like to ask you, how is the

690
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:14,480
real presence if the grace that's there is a created reality?

691
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:19,400
Speaker 2: Uh?

692
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:21,119
Speaker 4: Can you ask a question one more time?

693
00:43:21,639 --> 00:43:25,280
Speaker 1: How is it a real presence if what you're getting

694
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:30,519
in terms of the grace is a created reality? I

695
00:43:30,599 --> 00:43:35,920
don't know exactly. So either there's multiple gods, because there's

696
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:39,920
created God and uncreated God, or there's an essence energy

697
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:43,719
distinction by which we participate in the uncreated life, light

698
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:46,400
and immortality of Christ through his deified flesh.

699
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:51,760
Speaker 4: So I guess does it become his actual flesh.

700
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:53,840
Speaker 1: Or what is I would?

701
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:54,360
Speaker 2: I don't like.

702
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:58,039
Speaker 1: So the Roman Catholic dictum is body, blood, soul and divinity.

703
00:43:58,119 --> 00:44:00,320
I don't have a problem agreeing with a Roman outlic

704
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:02,840
about that. But the question is, Okay, what do you

705
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:05,679
mean when you say divinity, because it's if you don't

706
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:08,400
have the energies, you don't have the divinity.

707
00:44:10,159 --> 00:44:12,199
Speaker 19: I guess I'm just confused on whether or not it's

708
00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:15,800
symbolic because when you're taking the Eucharist, it still is

709
00:44:16,199 --> 00:44:19,119
the bread, right, and when you're drinking the wine, it

710
00:44:19,199 --> 00:44:20,000
still is the wine.

711
00:44:20,039 --> 00:44:22,239
Speaker 1: I thought, so, I thought, you're arguing in the Catholic position.

712
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:26,800
Speaker 4: No, I'm you know, I No, I'm not. I'm not

713
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:30,199
a Catholic, Okay, no, No, So like I'm more of

714
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:30,840
an inquirer.

715
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:34,639
Speaker 19: I see, But I was raised Protestant, and so I'm

716
00:44:34,679 --> 00:44:37,519
sort of, like I said, I'm disagreeing, but I'm open

717
00:44:37,679 --> 00:44:39,920
minded to you know, like hearing.

718
00:44:40,559 --> 00:44:42,320
Speaker 4: I'm open to being convinced of your position.

719
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:47,039
Speaker 1: Basically, yeah, I mean, visibly speaking, it has the appearance

720
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:50,440
of bread and wine, but we believe that it really

721
00:44:50,559 --> 00:44:55,480
is changed during the uh you know, Epiclesis and the

722
00:44:55,519 --> 00:44:57,960
priestly prayer, so it really is the real presence.

723
00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:02,199
Speaker 19: And you're you're getting that from the passages in the

724
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:05,599
Gospel where Jesus is saying drink of my blood and

725
00:45:05,639 --> 00:45:06,280
eating my body.

726
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:07,079
Speaker 2: Is that where that comes?

727
00:45:07,119 --> 00:45:08,880
Speaker 1: I mean, I think there's a whole bunch of passages

728
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:12,039
that contribute to this, as well as Revelation five through nine.

729
00:45:12,079 --> 00:45:15,559
The lamb is slain in heaven, John is seeing a

730
00:45:15,639 --> 00:45:18,679
heavenly worship service, which is the same worship service as

731
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:22,079
what we see in the liturgy. I think it's also

732
00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:26,960
in First Corinthians when Paul talks about the dangers of

733
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:31,000
partaking unworthily, which wouldn't make sense of his only symbolic

734
00:45:31,119 --> 00:45:33,400
but he says that if you eat of this in

735
00:45:33,639 --> 00:45:38,800
unworthy way, you can die. Hebrews thirteen has a significant

736
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:41,239
section when it talks about the altar that we eat from.

737
00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:46,119
That's where Paul uses the terminology of eucharistic altar. So

738
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:49,239
I think a lot of passages, not just John six,

739
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:52,960
but a lot of passages contribute to the real presence doctrine,

740
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:55,960
as well as the tradition in every one of the

741
00:45:56,159 --> 00:46:00,760
ancient seas having a liturgical service that is a eucharistic

742
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:03,960
offering sacrifice and mentioning the real presence. So the ancient

743
00:46:04,039 --> 00:46:05,719
liturgies themselves also prove this.

744
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:08,079
Speaker 8: Right.

745
00:46:08,519 --> 00:46:12,719
Speaker 4: So the Okay, to the real presence. I guess I

746
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:15,039
would need help with how I maybe I can go

747
00:46:15,159 --> 00:46:16,360
do some homework as to like.

748
00:46:17,079 --> 00:46:19,360
Speaker 19: Understanding what that means, because in the context of the

749
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:23,360
English language it literal means like very literal.

750
00:46:23,119 --> 00:46:25,199
Speaker 1: Right, Like there's a change. And I'll tell you that.

751
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:29,639
If you want a great Orthodox statement, read what Cyril

752
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:34,159
writes to the two letters to six Census, Saint Cyril

753
00:46:34,159 --> 00:46:37,599
of Alexandria. You can find those letters online. And the

754
00:46:37,679 --> 00:46:40,119
way that he talks about the deified flesh of Christ

755
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:43,519
in the Resurrection, he says, that's the exact same deified

756
00:46:43,599 --> 00:46:47,960
flesh that we eat in the Eucharist. Hence, read those

757
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:51,719
two letters and then read Cyril's anathemas that the twelve

758
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:55,320
anathemas against the story said ephesis, and you will see

759
00:46:55,320 --> 00:47:00,480
the connection between christology in the Eucharist says that we

760
00:47:00,639 --> 00:47:08,679
eat his deified flesh. That's what deifies us. Okay, And

761
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:14,119
the Walman Catholic Church is crazy because they don't have

762
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:15,599
this clear teaching.

763
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:20,320
Speaker 4: What's the difference between Orthodox.

764
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:22,840
Speaker 1: And Catholic Because they don't have the essence energy distinction,

765
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:25,760
and so they don't have a notion of the flesh

766
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:29,920
of Christ in the incarnation, being deified by the uncreated energy,

767
00:47:30,079 --> 00:47:32,599
energies and immortality of Christ who took it on and

768
00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:36,559
thus by extension brought the bread and the wine, becoming

769
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:42,760
the deified flesh in the Eucharist. That's only possible with

770
00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:50,079
the essence energy distinction, because there's there's limited options here.

771
00:47:50,199 --> 00:47:52,639
Are we eating the essence of God or are we

772
00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:54,880
partaking of the energies when we eat His flesh and blood?

773
00:47:55,960 --> 00:48:00,760
There's only two options. If you are Roman Catholic, you're

774
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:02,760
not gonna say we eat the essence of Gud. Nobody

775
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:06,920
says that. Okay, So what's the divinity that we're eating body, blood, soul, divinity?

776
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:10,920
What is the divinity in that phrase? Roman Catholics have

777
00:48:11,119 --> 00:48:17,239
to say, it's a created supernatural reality. Okay, Well, that's

778
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:21,400
not deification if it's just another creature. Jesus says he

779
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:23,679
came to gave us, give us a share of the

780
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:28,719
glory and immortality that he has with the Father John seventeen.

781
00:48:29,079 --> 00:48:32,159
That's not created. God's glory is not a creature, it's

782
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:35,960
uncreated glory. Well, how are we partaken of that? If

783
00:48:36,039 --> 00:48:38,000
the If we don't particure of the essence. It's the

784
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:39,599
essence energy distinction.

785
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:43,000
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm going need.

786
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:45,119
Speaker 19: To study up more on that, and I'm really interested

787
00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:48,320
to learn more and not to be too autistic, but

788
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:51,639
like when you're in the liturgy and you're about to

789
00:48:51,679 --> 00:48:54,320
take the sacraments, are you about to take the Eucharist?

790
00:48:54,519 --> 00:48:56,000
Speaker 4: How is it facilitated that.

791
00:48:57,719 --> 00:49:01,480
Speaker 1: The essence of Christ is in the ukras that I

792
00:49:01,639 --> 00:49:03,840
just said, it's not the essence of God. And that's

793
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:08,039
the Roman Catholic would have to be. The Roman Countis

794
00:49:08,119 --> 00:49:10,119
have to be in that position if they believe that

795
00:49:11,079 --> 00:49:15,119
you're eating the divinity. Okay, so we're eating body, blood, soul,

796
00:49:15,159 --> 00:49:18,880
and divinity. The Orthodox position is the only one that

797
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:22,880
can make sense of this by having the essence entered distinction,

798
00:49:23,159 --> 00:49:27,440
because that's what deifies Christ's human nature. What we are

799
00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:30,239
partaking of in the Eucharist is identical to the human

800
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:34,679
nature that he assumed his body. Ephesus teaches this as

801
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:37,119
clear as day in the anathemis. I'm not fussing at you,

802
00:49:37,199 --> 00:49:40,719
I'm just saying, like you would think people could just

803
00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:42,880
go read the two Letters to six Census, where he

804
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:48,199
says that Christ's body is not deified by the essence,

805
00:49:48,639 --> 00:49:52,679
it's deified by the uncreated gifts of grace and immortality,

806
00:49:53,679 --> 00:49:57,159
and the same principle is applied to the Eucharist. It's

807
00:49:58,079 --> 00:50:00,480
very clear. I'm not fussing at you, but just saying, like,

808
00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:05,119
Roman Catholics cannot get this, even though every Roman Catholic

809
00:50:05,119 --> 00:50:08,519
who's worth assault believes in the real presence. The only

810
00:50:08,599 --> 00:50:10,559
way to have the real presence doctrine is if you

811
00:50:10,639 --> 00:50:12,920
believe in the essence inergy section and it's I.

812
00:50:14,719 --> 00:50:16,960
Speaker 19: Think I'm coming at it from more of a Protestant position,

813
00:50:17,119 --> 00:50:18,159
even though I'm not Protestant.

814
00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:19,000
Speaker 4: Is how it's raised.

815
00:50:19,039 --> 00:50:22,760
Speaker 19: So it's more of like trying to grasp the real

816
00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:25,000
presence like versus the symbolic.

817
00:50:25,119 --> 00:50:26,960
Speaker 4: But no, I mean, I'm going to read up on

818
00:50:27,039 --> 00:50:28,119
what you what you mentioned.

819
00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:32,159
Speaker 19: And then I was also just curious, like, during the liturgy,

820
00:50:32,280 --> 00:50:35,880
is it when the priest blesses the Eucharist.

821
00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:37,599
Speaker 1: Is that one called the epiclesis, which is the calling

822
00:50:37,639 --> 00:50:40,079
down to the Holy Spirit and the words of Institution. Right,

823
00:50:40,159 --> 00:50:43,719
so Roman Catholics believe, for whatever reason, that it's literally

824
00:50:44,039 --> 00:50:47,639
just the words of Institution when the priest says the

825
00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:53,360
magic words. The Orthodox view doesn't have this weird legalistic

826
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:56,920
attitude as if you could, as if the Epiclesis, which

827
00:50:57,000 --> 00:50:59,400
is the calling down the Holy Spirit, is not part

828
00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:01,559
of it. So you're just gonna get too that they're

829
00:51:01,639 --> 00:51:08,840
just hyper rigid legalists. They're silly. I mean, I don't

830
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:12,159
It's like, I'm not trying to be rude to you,

831
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:15,280
it's just I don't understand why this is so confusing

832
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:17,639
to these people, not you, but to the Roman Catholics.

833
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:20,360
It's actually not that confusing if you're a Protestant coming

834
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:25,199
to this, believe it or not. And I've been making

835
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:27,559
this argument for years now. Oh, I mean, I've never

836
00:51:27,599 --> 00:51:30,960
heard Roman Kelly address this. But you know why, because

837
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:33,320
they don't care what Ephesus says. They don't read ephesis.

838
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:38,800
Remember Voice of Reasons says Ephesus aired, And he doesn't

839
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:41,719
even realize how stupid and damning that is to his

840
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:44,920
own position. When he says that Ephesus aired and condemning

841
00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:48,719
the Storius because the Storius wasn't actually heterodox. You understand

842
00:51:48,719 --> 00:51:53,119
that means that the acts and the anathemas are also

843
00:51:53,239 --> 00:52:02,400
therefore erroneous, because the acts and the anathemas are all

844
00:52:02,599 --> 00:52:11,960
about Nestorius. Okay, let's go down to the anathemas. Don't

845
00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:19,440
talking about the canons. About the anathemas. Okay, every one

846
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:23,960
of these anathemas is about what Nestorius teaches. They're about

847
00:52:24,079 --> 00:52:34,960
him by name. And he makes an argument about the Eucharist.

848
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:48,679
If anyone does not confess that the flesh of the

849
00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:52,679
Lord is life giving and belongs to the Word, but

850
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:58,400
maintains that it belongs to another beside him, a mere man,

851
00:52:59,119 --> 00:53:01,920
let him be anathema. That's talking about the Eucharist. If

852
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:07,079
you read Cyril's writings, he argues this argument against Nastorius

853
00:53:08,199 --> 00:53:11,119
about the Eucharist. But when did Roman Catholics ever care

854
00:53:11,159 --> 00:53:14,480
about the context and the actual theologians arguments. They just

855
00:53:14,559 --> 00:53:17,960
care about what the documents themselves say that supports the

856
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:23,320
papal position. But I've read Cyril at length of Alexandria.

857
00:53:24,119 --> 00:53:26,440
You could just read, for example, a small work like

858
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:29,559
on the Unity of Christ, where he will make these

859
00:53:29,599 --> 00:53:33,840
types of arguments, and it's not that hard, you would

860
00:53:33,880 --> 00:53:39,679
think to understand this. But there's a veil over their minds.

861
00:53:39,880 --> 00:53:42,239
They are their minds are cloud. They cannot grasp this

862
00:53:42,639 --> 00:53:45,159
because they don't understand the basics. They don't even understand

863
00:53:45,159 --> 00:53:48,440
the Trinity. They think the Trinity is some weird diad

864
00:53:48,599 --> 00:53:51,920
of an absolute essence, and it's like, that's not even

865
00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:55,400
the right starting point for the triad. Starting point is

866
00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:58,320
the person of the Father, as the Creed says. So

867
00:53:58,440 --> 00:54:01,960
you're dealing with a weird philosophy cult when you're talking

868
00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:08,719
about most Roman Catholics. And again it's funny because no

869
00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:11,920
Roman Catholic will say that you're eating the Essence in

870
00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:15,199
the Eucharist. Okay, well what are you eating? The only

871
00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:17,800
other option for them is to say that it's a created,

872
00:54:18,159 --> 00:54:23,679
supernatural reality. Well, that means that it's a created God,

873
00:54:24,159 --> 00:54:26,800
and that means that you're under the anathema of Ephesis

874
00:54:26,880 --> 00:54:33,039
Anathema eleven because what you get is not life giving.

875
00:54:33,199 --> 00:54:38,960
If it's a creature, this is life giving, because Cyril

876
00:54:39,079 --> 00:54:42,960
says in the Two Letters to six Census, it's the

877
00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:49,559
uncreated immortality, life, light and grace that deifies the flesh.

878
00:54:53,639 --> 00:54:58,000
If any Roman Catholic actually understood this argument, this alone

879
00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:04,199
would refute Rome. This refutes them, and it's not even

880
00:55:04,280 --> 00:55:09,079
that difficult of an argument. Jaden, twenty seven, Canadian Jay

881
00:55:09,159 --> 00:55:12,559
dow or the goat please to offer you some shuckles

882
00:55:12,840 --> 00:55:16,079
keeping me entertained. Keep up the work, good work. I

883
00:55:16,159 --> 00:55:19,599
figure out stream labs this next time, this money is

884
00:55:19,639 --> 00:55:22,519
going straight to you. Well, yeah, you could just click

885
00:55:22,559 --> 00:55:24,039
over if you want to the next time, the stream

886
00:55:24,119 --> 00:55:26,159
labs link will take you over to a different page

887
00:55:26,280 --> 00:55:29,000
and then you just have to put the information in there.

888
00:55:30,079 --> 00:55:33,159
But of course stream labs is all given to the creators.

889
00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:35,920
If you use YouTube, you know they take thirty percent.

890
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:40,679
Lower score golf with Ryan five dollars. I would argue

891
00:55:40,719 --> 00:55:47,639
against your eucharistic view. Yeah, please come back on where

892
00:55:47,679 --> 00:55:52,440
you're at. Oh are you that Roman Kelly did? It's

893
00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:58,960
super annoying. Again, you're not even listening to what I'm arguing.

894
00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:02,320
I know that you think as a Roman Catholic you're

895
00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:10,039
partaking of divine life. But the argument is that it's

896
00:56:10,119 --> 00:56:13,239
not a consistent position because it's not the essence of God.

897
00:56:14,559 --> 00:56:16,639
What's your other option? Your only other option as a

898
00:56:16,719 --> 00:56:20,480
Roman Catholic is a created reality. Ryan, what is your

899
00:56:20,719 --> 00:56:29,800
profile name? I need to know your profile name. This

900
00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:33,199
is going to be challenging. Let me see if I

901
00:56:33,239 --> 00:56:40,199
can find his Tell me your handle and I can

902
00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:43,400
unblock you. If you go into blocks like there's just

903
00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:45,920
tons of people, I'll never find you in there. So

904
00:56:46,079 --> 00:56:59,079
what's your actual handle? Ryan? I need your handle? Okay? Ryan?

905
00:56:59,239 --> 00:56:59,639
Speaker 2: K here?

906
00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:31,440
Speaker 1: All right, Ron, I'm sending you in DMS the link. Yeah,

907
00:57:31,519 --> 00:57:33,960
I got him. I unblocked him and sent him a link.

908
00:57:34,119 --> 00:57:36,400
So we're just waiting on Ryan to show up. Hit

909
00:57:36,480 --> 00:58:03,400
request to speak Ryan. Where you're at?

910
00:58:03,480 --> 00:58:03,599
Speaker 17: Ryan?

911
00:58:03,679 --> 00:58:12,599
Speaker 1: I thought you were about to pop up. We'll go

912
00:58:12,679 --> 00:58:17,480
to Wizzy while while we're waiting on Ryan. What's up, Wizzy?

913
00:58:18,239 --> 00:58:31,599
I'm you got I'm mute Wizzy. Yeah.

914
00:58:31,639 --> 00:58:33,639
Speaker 4: So I'm just currently Roman Catholic.

915
00:58:33,719 --> 00:58:36,159
Speaker 20: I'm kind of on my way out, and I'm just

916
00:58:36,880 --> 00:58:39,679
wondering about the limbo of the Fathers and if the

917
00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:40,760
Orthodox hold to this.

918
00:58:42,880 --> 00:58:45,480
Speaker 1: Well, we believe in the heroling of Hades, so there's

919
00:58:45,519 --> 00:58:50,639
some overlap with the Roman Catholic idea. But look up

920
00:58:50,760 --> 00:58:54,239
the you know, heroling of Hades, that's a universal Orthodox teaching.

921
00:58:55,320 --> 00:58:58,239
Speaker 20: Oh yeah, and then just a second question. I've been

922
00:58:58,360 --> 00:59:01,280
kind of focused on more of the papers, see, but

923
00:59:02,199 --> 00:59:05,440
I kind of neglected a lot of the theological differences.

924
00:59:05,559 --> 00:59:10,000
It's just there any good beginner resources for things like essence, energy,

925
00:59:10,159 --> 00:59:11,360
distinction and theosis.

926
00:59:13,000 --> 00:59:15,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would start with something like mystical theology of

927
00:59:15,960 --> 00:59:19,719
the Eastern Church, and then I would move on to

928
00:59:19,840 --> 00:59:26,800
something like Professor Manseritis's both deification of Man. Those would

929
00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:29,440
be places to start, uh, and then you can kind

930
00:59:29,440 --> 00:59:38,480
of work on from there. Where's Ryan? At Ryan? We're

931
00:59:38,480 --> 00:59:39,480
waiting on you? Where you at.

932
00:59:43,559 --> 00:59:43,599
Speaker 4: Ed?

933
00:59:43,960 --> 00:59:46,599
Speaker 1: What's up? While we're waiting on Here's Ryan? So we'll

934
00:59:46,599 --> 00:59:47,920
go to add and then we'll go to Ryn. What's up?

935
00:59:48,039 --> 00:59:48,079
Speaker 4: Ed?

936
00:59:49,800 --> 00:59:50,079
Speaker 1: I'm you.

937
00:59:54,119 --> 00:59:54,880
Speaker 2: Let me help this time.

938
00:59:55,920 --> 00:59:57,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think there is something bugging with it.

939
00:59:58,159 --> 00:59:58,599
Speaker 14: How you doing?

940
00:59:58,639 --> 00:59:58,760
Speaker 2: Man?

941
00:59:59,159 --> 00:59:59,519
Speaker 1: What's up?

942
01:00:01,159 --> 01:00:02,880
Speaker 2: I wanted to pick your brain.

943
01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:06,239
Speaker 8: I know before we kind of talked and came to

944
01:00:06,360 --> 01:00:10,199
a consensus of like, secularism is a mistake just as

945
01:00:10,239 --> 01:00:15,480
a whole right. But I feel like maybe there is

946
01:00:15,559 --> 01:00:20,639
an argument to we had about misinterpreting religious freedoms in

947
01:00:20,719 --> 01:00:25,280
the United States. Do you think it's just wholesale religious

948
01:00:25,280 --> 01:00:28,480
freedom or do you think maybe it is specific to

949
01:00:29,400 --> 01:00:31,320
what I would think is like the context of the time,

950
01:00:32,119 --> 01:00:37,159
not wanting to be persecuted by state church, not wanting

951
01:00:37,239 --> 01:00:45,039
the benefits to be denominational specifically the Anglicans, and you

952
01:00:45,119 --> 01:00:50,159
know quotes from John Adams about like the Constitution is

953
01:00:50,280 --> 01:00:52,920
made for a moral and religious people, it is wholly

954
01:00:52,960 --> 01:00:54,800
inadequate for any other right.

955
01:00:55,519 --> 01:00:57,760
Speaker 4: I would then kind of.

956
01:00:58,280 --> 01:01:02,320
Speaker 8: Be led to this idea that if the state and

957
01:01:02,519 --> 01:01:04,960
the nation are separate, I don't know if this is

958
01:01:05,039 --> 01:01:10,800
just semantics right the right then if a nation is

959
01:01:11,519 --> 01:01:15,320
a group of people's and not necessarily the state, right

960
01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:19,039
is it would it then be I guess on target

961
01:01:19,119 --> 01:01:23,000
to say the state was meant to be secular, but

962
01:01:23,119 --> 01:01:23,880
the nation was not.

963
01:01:24,480 --> 01:01:25,320
Speaker 10: The peoples was not.

964
01:01:25,639 --> 01:01:29,800
Speaker 1: No, I mean Romans thirteen says that the state is

965
01:01:29,880 --> 01:01:34,719
a diaconos, a minister of God. So it's never been secular.

966
01:01:36,880 --> 01:01:39,000
Speaker 8: Sure, But I'm talking about in the in the context

967
01:01:39,079 --> 01:01:40,880
of the Framers.

968
01:01:40,440 --> 01:01:41,159
Speaker 4: In the United States.

969
01:01:45,079 --> 01:01:47,639
Speaker 1: Are you so you're saying they said it was secular.

970
01:01:47,800 --> 01:01:50,000
I don't have any opinion on that. Maybe they did,

971
01:01:50,239 --> 01:01:52,880
maybe they thought it was a quasi Christian.

972
01:01:53,199 --> 01:01:55,559
Speaker 8: Well, no, I'm saying as they wanted to set it

973
01:01:55,679 --> 01:01:58,360
up here, right, not in relation to.

974
01:01:58,400 --> 01:01:59,719
Speaker 4: The Church as a whole.

975
01:02:02,280 --> 01:02:07,320
Speaker 1: I'm saying that I understand that there are traditional American

976
01:02:07,519 --> 01:02:14,440
debates about how quote Christian the Framers and Founders thought

977
01:02:15,280 --> 01:02:17,960
that the church and state relationships were supposed to be.

978
01:02:18,079 --> 01:02:20,280
I'm just saying I don't really care about I'm not

979
01:02:20,440 --> 01:02:23,480
being rude. I just don't really have any set opinion

980
01:02:23,519 --> 01:02:27,639
on it because some of them were Christians, some of

981
01:02:27,679 --> 01:02:28,400
them were Deists.

982
01:02:28,840 --> 01:02:36,039
Speaker 8: I mean, okay, I guess uh. The only thing I

983
01:02:36,079 --> 01:02:38,119
would have left for you is if I could follow

984
01:02:38,159 --> 01:02:41,639
up with a question about a tag position. I think

985
01:02:41,719 --> 01:02:46,639
tag is a strong argument. I've you know, done my

986
01:02:46,760 --> 01:02:49,440
due diligence and trying to understand the position, and you

987
01:02:49,559 --> 01:02:49,760
know the.

988
01:02:51,280 --> 01:02:53,039
Speaker 4: I read a bit of the Emmanuel.

989
01:02:52,719 --> 01:02:53,719
Speaker 8: Kent but.

990
01:02:55,800 --> 01:02:58,599
Speaker 1: But I mean Kant is not TAG, so but go ahead.

991
01:02:58,800 --> 01:03:02,480
Speaker 8: Well right, yeah, But the in trying to understand transidentals

992
01:03:05,920 --> 01:03:11,840
show My question then is how does it only lead

993
01:03:11,920 --> 01:03:14,119
to the Christian God.

994
01:03:14,760 --> 01:03:18,719
Speaker 1: I mean, I've got old talks that address this, but

995
01:03:18,920 --> 01:03:20,920
to go into it, just in brief, I would say

996
01:03:21,000 --> 01:03:24,639
that the reason that it points in the direction of Christianity,

997
01:03:24,760 --> 01:03:29,159
or specifically Orthodox triad is that really only the Orthodox

998
01:03:29,199 --> 01:03:34,360
worldview gives you the metaphysical toolkit to do the grounding

999
01:03:34,440 --> 01:03:36,960
work is and that takes quite a bit of argument

1000
01:03:37,039 --> 01:03:39,920
and time to flesh all that out. But I want

1001
01:03:39,960 --> 01:03:43,599
our Rouman Catholic buddy to come back and argue about

1002
01:03:43,639 --> 01:03:53,599
the Eucharist. Ryan, you want to, I'm mute, hey.

1003
01:03:53,440 --> 01:03:58,760
Speaker 2: Excorry about that. I didn't realize the transition over you

1004
01:03:58,840 --> 01:03:59,960
might you might be disappointed.

1005
01:04:00,079 --> 01:04:02,760
Speaker 21: I don't necessarily have a full blown argument for this

1006
01:04:02,920 --> 01:04:06,719
yet because it's one of the distinct arguments of the

1007
01:04:06,719 --> 01:04:09,480
Eastern Orthodox that is sort of on the list.

1008
01:04:09,599 --> 01:04:12,840
Speaker 2: And you be actually is kind of giving me articles

1009
01:04:12,880 --> 01:04:14,960
here and there and STU have to read. But I

1010
01:04:15,000 --> 01:04:21,159
think I have like four categories of like potential pushback

1011
01:04:21,239 --> 01:04:21,440
on it.

1012
01:04:23,920 --> 01:04:28,760
Speaker 21: One uh yeah, yeah, yeah, ok, so as ince and energies,

1013
01:04:30,599 --> 01:04:34,800
and it basically falls into like it compromises the divine

1014
01:04:35,000 --> 01:04:36,800
simplicity of God.

1015
01:04:38,119 --> 01:04:40,760
Speaker 1: So man, I mean, I'm not trying to be rude too, dude,

1016
01:04:40,760 --> 01:04:44,320
but like this is like, do you not think that

1017
01:04:44,480 --> 01:04:47,760
we've dealt without objection? I mean, I thought you want

1018
01:04:47,800 --> 01:04:49,679
to debate the Eucharist, and now you're saying you want

1019
01:04:49,719 --> 01:04:52,239
to talk about like the number like the number one

1020
01:04:52,320 --> 01:04:54,119
objections about sincerean distinction.

1021
01:04:55,320 --> 01:04:55,920
Speaker 8: Well do you?

1022
01:04:56,119 --> 01:04:57,559
Speaker 21: I mean, when you were just talking about the uchars

1023
01:04:57,679 --> 01:05:00,159
in that Protestant or non precedent, you know what whatever

1024
01:05:00,199 --> 01:05:03,280
he was called, in the way you articulated the argument

1025
01:05:03,320 --> 01:05:05,920
I actually have never I don't think I've ever read

1026
01:05:05,960 --> 01:05:06,559
it or heard it.

1027
01:05:06,599 --> 01:05:10,159
Speaker 2: That way, and it sparked interesting me. So that's why

1028
01:05:10,199 --> 01:05:10,639
I commented.

1029
01:05:10,639 --> 01:05:12,480
Speaker 21: It was like, hey, I would actually like to formulate

1030
01:05:12,480 --> 01:05:15,000
an argument against this potentially and bring it to you.

1031
01:05:15,360 --> 01:05:16,360
Speaker 2: I didn't mean now.

1032
01:05:17,920 --> 01:05:20,559
Speaker 21: Once I'm able to, but I did want to get

1033
01:05:20,599 --> 01:05:24,000
some clarification on it because I think I might have

1034
01:05:24,119 --> 01:05:25,280
some misrepresentations of it.

1035
01:05:25,679 --> 01:05:28,719
Speaker 1: So first of all, if you read the debate between

1036
01:05:29,360 --> 01:05:31,639
Pola Moss and the Barley Mind, which is an eighty

1037
01:05:31,679 --> 01:05:37,039
page debate, the debate actually goes into what we partake

1038
01:05:37,159 --> 01:05:40,440
of and how do we partake of God without compromising

1039
01:05:40,519 --> 01:05:43,000
his simplicity. So I can tell you from the outset

1040
01:05:43,119 --> 01:05:48,880
the idea that a strong real distinction in God compromising

1041
01:05:49,000 --> 01:05:52,840
his simplicity is itself a problem in the Romancalolic position,

1042
01:05:52,920 --> 01:05:54,960
because you believe that the persons are really distinct in

1043
01:05:55,000 --> 01:05:58,639
the trinity. So if real distinctions compromise it, you're already

1044
01:05:58,679 --> 01:06:00,599
compromising it by being a sanitarian.

1045
01:06:01,960 --> 01:06:07,400
Speaker 2: Okay, So yeah, that the composition issue. The other part

1046
01:06:07,440 --> 01:06:09,199
of it was the.

1047
01:06:10,760 --> 01:06:15,679
Speaker 21: Like the cappit Docians in Dionysius, they used to use language,

1048
01:06:15,679 --> 01:06:17,559
and I could be wrong. I'm going out the top

1049
01:06:17,559 --> 01:06:20,760
of my head processions, right, and like operations.

1050
01:06:21,360 --> 01:06:23,639
Speaker 1: The word is still in the Greek inner gaea. I mean,

1051
01:06:23,800 --> 01:06:25,239
you know that's in the New Testament, right.

1052
01:06:25,440 --> 01:06:27,960
Speaker 21: Yeah, yeah, yeah, But did they ever posit a real

1053
01:06:28,039 --> 01:06:30,719
metaphysical like divide from God?

1054
01:06:30,840 --> 01:06:34,320
Speaker 1: Not a divide. It's a distinction, is not division. Just

1055
01:06:34,599 --> 01:06:37,719
like when Basil makes the same argument about the persons,

1056
01:06:38,440 --> 01:06:41,840
he says that the distinction between God and his energies

1057
01:06:41,920 --> 01:06:45,079
or operations is no different than the distinction between the

1058
01:06:45,199 --> 01:06:47,760
persons or the person and the nature and the triad.

1059
01:06:49,039 --> 01:06:53,559
Speaker 2: Okay, what was the what was the the poalmus? And

1060
01:06:53,639 --> 01:06:54,679
what was the other person?

1061
01:06:56,480 --> 01:06:58,639
Speaker 1: Dialogue with the Barley of Mind is an eighty page

1062
01:06:58,719 --> 01:07:01,599
book that is a debate on this very topic between

1063
01:07:02,119 --> 01:07:04,119
a can Dinos and Barlem.

1064
01:07:04,880 --> 01:07:05,119
Speaker 2: Okay.

1065
01:07:05,119 --> 01:07:06,400
Speaker 21: And I think part of the problem is I'm not

1066
01:07:06,559 --> 01:07:09,880
like I don't I'm not scholastic and full in the

1067
01:07:09,960 --> 01:07:12,199
sense of like Aquinas and stuff, So like I had

1068
01:07:12,239 --> 01:07:14,960
more Ciscotus on that side, So that might be some

1069
01:07:15,039 --> 01:07:15,760
of my confusion.

1070
01:07:16,159 --> 01:07:18,519
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, but Scotis doesn't really help the case,

1071
01:07:18,719 --> 01:07:23,159
because a formal distinction doesn't really tell us anything about

1072
01:07:23,760 --> 01:07:27,039
what we participate in. So in the dialogue that I'm

1073
01:07:27,079 --> 01:07:31,360
recommending to you, the course of the argument proceeds from

1074
01:07:31,559 --> 01:07:36,960
originally questions about composition and simplicity, and it eventually moves

1075
01:07:37,000 --> 01:07:39,920
into Palamas, arguing, well, what do you think we participate

1076
01:07:39,960 --> 01:07:42,719
in if there's not actual energies that are different from

1077
01:07:42,760 --> 01:07:45,840
the essence, The Paloma synods end up using the terminology

1078
01:07:45,920 --> 01:07:49,679
of a different reality. The reality of foreknowledge cannot be

1079
01:07:49,800 --> 01:07:53,400
identical to the reality of providence and the reality of

1080
01:07:53,440 --> 01:07:57,039
the divine essence, because, for example, God does different things

1081
01:07:57,119 --> 01:08:01,159
and does different works. So if for example, he creates

1082
01:08:01,280 --> 01:08:04,920
a world over which he's provident, the exercising of the

1083
01:08:05,000 --> 01:08:09,400
attribute of providence requires a world. But God did not

1084
01:08:09,599 --> 01:08:12,840
eternally have a world over which he was provident.

1085
01:08:12,480 --> 01:08:12,840
Speaker 2: You see.

1086
01:08:13,360 --> 01:08:15,679
Speaker 1: So there has to be some distinction in God between

1087
01:08:16,520 --> 01:08:21,119
energies that are potential or that are powers versus those

1088
01:08:21,199 --> 01:08:23,439
that are actualized. And this is part of what the

1089
01:08:23,560 --> 01:08:26,880
essence sentity distinction does to make the note that God

1090
01:08:26,960 --> 01:08:29,840
does different things. God wrested from the work of creating,

1091
01:08:30,479 --> 01:08:32,359
so he's not eternally creating.

1092
01:08:33,319 --> 01:08:33,439
Speaker 2: Right.

1093
01:08:33,840 --> 01:08:37,239
Speaker 1: Likewise, it says in Scripture and Zechari and in Isaiah

1094
01:08:37,439 --> 01:08:39,239
and in the Book of Revelation that there are seven

1095
01:08:39,319 --> 01:08:42,359
spirits of God and it lists those spirits as being

1096
01:08:42,840 --> 01:08:45,880
upon the son of God. Does that mean there's seven

1097
01:08:45,960 --> 01:08:49,039
holy spirits? Is God's wisdom? Knowledge?

1098
01:08:49,119 --> 01:08:49,600
Speaker 2: Fear? Is that?

1099
01:08:49,760 --> 01:08:51,159
Speaker 1: Are those things creatures?

1100
01:08:53,319 --> 01:08:53,359
Speaker 4: So?

1101
01:08:54,079 --> 01:08:56,000
Speaker 1: Well, did you hear what I said though, the seven

1102
01:08:56,079 --> 01:08:56,840
spirits of God?

1103
01:08:58,279 --> 01:09:00,520
Speaker 2: Well? No, obviously the have of not say that. That's

1104
01:09:01,720 --> 01:09:02,560
I don't think I would.

1105
01:09:02,399 --> 01:09:04,279
Speaker 1: Agree with that obviously, Okay, so are they? Are they

1106
01:09:04,439 --> 01:09:05,199
the essence of going?

1107
01:09:05,840 --> 01:09:07,840
Speaker 21: Well, that that's kind of that's my I think that's

1108
01:09:07,880 --> 01:09:11,439
my next obvious question then, is like how do you

1109
01:09:11,720 --> 01:09:18,840
have like are the energies actual ontological distinctions in God

1110
01:09:19,000 --> 01:09:20,479
or conceptual distinctions?

1111
01:09:20,520 --> 01:09:25,000
Speaker 1: Now, they're really different realities, not mere conceptual distinctions, because

1112
01:09:25,600 --> 01:09:30,399
the reality of the divine essence cannot be identical to

1113
01:09:30,640 --> 01:09:35,000
the reality of providence, because if the divine essence is

1114
01:09:35,079 --> 01:09:38,840
necessary and eternal, then Providence is necessary and eternal. Then

1115
01:09:38,880 --> 01:09:41,840
there's a world over which God is providential for all

1116
01:09:41,920 --> 01:09:43,479
eternity necessarily.

1117
01:09:44,199 --> 01:09:45,800
Speaker 2: So it is multiple realities.

1118
01:09:46,239 --> 01:09:50,840
Speaker 1: That's the terminology that the palmit sonods used. Different distinct realities.

1119
01:09:51,520 --> 01:09:53,199
Speaker 2: Okay, all right, that makes it and if you.

1120
01:09:53,199 --> 01:09:57,159
Speaker 1: Look at one hundred fifty chapters, it's like ninety eight

1121
01:09:57,319 --> 01:09:59,840
till like one oh three where palm moss E gauges

1122
01:09:59,880 --> 01:10:04,199
in and reductio arguments to prove that there are different realities.

1123
01:10:04,520 --> 01:10:06,800
And one of the arguments that he uses in those

1124
01:10:06,840 --> 01:10:08,359
reductios is what you just heard me.

1125
01:10:08,439 --> 01:10:13,119
Speaker 21: Use, okay, And you would probably believe that, like the

1126
01:10:13,319 --> 01:10:17,520
entire Latin tradition fell into heresy because Palamas teachings were

1127
01:10:18,039 --> 01:10:22,000
pretty much condemned in entirety, right, correct, So you would

1128
01:10:22,000 --> 01:10:24,600
agree that the Latin tradition fell into heresy from that

1129
01:10:24,680 --> 01:10:26,199
point or some point, Yes.

1130
01:10:26,880 --> 01:10:30,760
Speaker 1: But particularly during the period of twelve seventy four alliance

1131
01:10:30,800 --> 01:10:34,560
with the dogmatic definition of a double eternal hypostite procession.

1132
01:10:35,119 --> 01:10:39,159
The response Council Blackerne, the Palomite Synods and the Council

1133
01:10:39,159 --> 01:10:42,439
of Florence is the official departure. And there's a great

1134
01:10:42,880 --> 01:10:47,039
orange book here called Palamas's Readings by Norman Russell, and

1135
01:10:47,119 --> 01:10:48,760
it has all the Palomite Synods in it.

1136
01:10:49,880 --> 01:10:50,239
Speaker 4: Is there.

1137
01:10:53,199 --> 01:10:58,359
Speaker 2: Like pre schismatic language for the essence of energies.

1138
01:10:58,880 --> 01:11:02,000
Speaker 1: Yes, letter two thirty four Basil says that we do

1139
01:11:02,119 --> 01:11:05,039
not know or experience God's essence, but the energies or

1140
01:11:05,079 --> 01:11:09,039
operations the energeia come down to us. You could look

1141
01:11:09,079 --> 01:11:12,239
at Basils on the Holy Spirit, where he argues that

1142
01:11:12,680 --> 01:11:14,800
one way that we know that the Holy Spirit is

1143
01:11:14,880 --> 01:11:17,840
fully divined is that he has the same energy as

1144
01:11:17,960 --> 01:11:20,399
the Father and the Son. To have the same energy

1145
01:11:20,479 --> 01:11:23,920
signifies the same nature. You could look at Sat Maximus,

1146
01:11:23,960 --> 01:11:26,119
a confessor who uses the energies all the time in

1147
01:11:26,199 --> 01:11:29,039
his polemics. In his dispute with Paris, he uses the energies.

1148
01:11:29,479 --> 01:11:32,000
Saint Cyril of Alexandri uses the energies to help explain

1149
01:11:32,159 --> 01:11:34,199
what it is that's going on in the Eucharist and

1150
01:11:34,319 --> 01:11:37,960
what's going on in Christology. The Six Ecumenical Council, even

1151
01:11:38,039 --> 01:11:40,359
in the Latins with Pope Agatho, says that Christ has

1152
01:11:40,399 --> 01:11:43,920
two wills and two energies. That means he does different things.

1153
01:11:44,399 --> 01:11:48,560
So to have Theophanes, for example, requires the essence energy stinction.

1154
01:11:48,680 --> 01:11:51,319
There's no other way. There's no other toolkit or system

1155
01:11:51,760 --> 01:11:54,439
that explains or allows for the Theophanes to be real

1156
01:11:54,840 --> 01:11:57,479
other than the orthodox theological system. And that's why all

1157
01:11:57,520 --> 01:12:00,479
the Thomas have been openly denying it. In the last

1158
01:12:00,640 --> 01:12:02,079
month on Twitter.

1159
01:12:02,279 --> 01:12:08,039
Speaker 21: Interesting, Okay, And for the sake of sounding like reducing

1160
01:12:08,079 --> 01:12:10,399
this to such a ridiculously simple.

1161
01:12:10,199 --> 01:12:11,920
Speaker 2: Degree, what is like?

1162
01:12:12,880 --> 01:12:16,800
Speaker 21: Uh So, in Eastern Orthodoxy, you guys believe that you

1163
01:12:16,840 --> 01:12:19,640
guys are consuming the the divinity.

1164
01:12:19,680 --> 01:12:21,560
Speaker 2: Obviously, obviously both sides believe that.

1165
01:12:23,119 --> 01:12:25,720
Speaker 21: But what's the what would be the term that you

1166
01:12:25,760 --> 01:12:28,600
would distinctly say is different between what we're consuming.

1167
01:12:29,359 --> 01:12:32,640
Speaker 1: We believe that we're partaking of a deified flesh that

1168
01:12:32,800 --> 01:12:37,399
is deified by the uncreated energies of Christ, and a

1169
01:12:37,520 --> 01:12:40,479
Roman Catholic must believe in some way that it is

1170
01:12:40,560 --> 01:12:44,159
a created reality that is the grace, the grace itself.

1171
01:12:44,279 --> 01:12:47,079
We're not talking about the elements. We all know the

1172
01:12:47,199 --> 01:12:51,239
elements are created. We're not talking about Christ's physical body, Okay,

1173
01:12:51,439 --> 01:12:55,760
we know that's created. The grace itself in the Roman

1174
01:12:55,800 --> 01:12:59,600
college system must be a created reality because it is

1175
01:12:59,760 --> 01:13:01,039
not the essence of God.

1176
01:13:02,560 --> 01:13:05,600
Speaker 2: Okay, So that's what I was going to, the essence,

1177
01:13:05,720 --> 01:13:06,960
not the energy. Okay.

1178
01:13:08,960 --> 01:13:12,319
Speaker 1: Well, no, I'm saying the Roman Catholic position it doesn't

1179
01:13:12,520 --> 01:13:17,279
have the toolkit to explain it or to agree with

1180
01:13:17,600 --> 01:13:21,439
Ephesus and Cyril, because they say, well, we're not eating

1181
01:13:21,439 --> 01:13:24,319
the essence, So what is the divinity?

1182
01:13:24,359 --> 01:13:24,520
Speaker 22: Then?

1183
01:13:25,279 --> 01:13:27,600
Speaker 1: Well, if you read the polemight the debate between pallem

1184
01:13:27,640 --> 01:13:31,920
Aus and Barlamite Barley ends up I said, I can

1185
01:13:32,000 --> 01:13:36,359
I know something Barlin. Barlin ends up arguing, or maybe

1186
01:13:36,359 --> 01:13:38,760
as Ichonis for you, but he ends up arguing that

1187
01:13:40,319 --> 01:13:44,279
it's a created reality and he says, so there's created

1188
01:13:44,359 --> 01:13:48,520
God and he says, yes, well that's polytheism.

1189
01:13:48,920 --> 01:13:54,960
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, clearly, Okay, you might have asked one more question.

1190
01:13:55,119 --> 01:14:01,399
Speaker 21: Sure, so if God, uh, obviously I think you'd agree, like,

1191
01:14:01,439 --> 01:14:04,880
God's not subject to time or potentiality, right or would

1192
01:14:04,880 --> 01:14:05,640
you disagree with that?

1193
01:14:05,880 --> 01:14:09,199
Speaker 1: So the if you look at the Cappadocian teaching on

1194
01:14:09,439 --> 01:14:13,520
first and second actuality, they point out that God has

1195
01:14:13,880 --> 01:14:16,319
powers that he doesn't have to actualize. So from all

1196
01:14:16,399 --> 01:14:20,119
eternity he has the power of creating. That does not

1197
01:14:20,279 --> 01:14:23,800
mean that he has always been creating, you see. So

1198
01:14:23,920 --> 01:14:26,880
that's the difference between the dunamis or the power and

1199
01:14:27,279 --> 01:14:31,840
doing and acting on the power. Okay, so in that sense,

1200
01:14:31,920 --> 01:14:34,960
there's first and second actuality in God. But no Tomas

1201
01:14:35,079 --> 01:14:37,119
would ever say that, because they would say that that

1202
01:14:37,720 --> 01:14:41,600
necessarily means God undergoes change and that he's a creature.

1203
01:14:42,119 --> 01:14:45,359
But the only way to maintain free will is to

1204
01:14:45,520 --> 01:14:47,840
believe and to point to what we're talking about.

1205
01:14:48,720 --> 01:14:50,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I don't know that Scotus would agree with

1206
01:14:50,680 --> 01:14:51,720
the Thomas on that one.

1207
01:14:51,680 --> 01:14:53,319
Speaker 1: But well hold on.

1208
01:14:53,520 --> 01:14:54,159
Speaker 2: So uh.

1209
01:14:55,439 --> 01:14:59,800
Speaker 1: Even so, the formal distinction of the attributes, the only

1210
01:15:00,119 --> 01:15:04,119
analogy that it shares with quote pallemism is that it's

1211
01:15:04,159 --> 01:15:07,119
a stronger level of a distinction between the attributes and

1212
01:15:07,600 --> 01:15:10,920
the divine essence. But Scotism does not in any way

1213
01:15:11,000 --> 01:15:13,479
help answer the dilemma of the Eucharist and what you

1214
01:15:13,600 --> 01:15:16,159
partake of and whether the grace that we partake of

1215
01:15:16,439 --> 01:15:19,800
is uncreated. It doesn't even really go there. It's only

1216
01:15:20,039 --> 01:15:24,079
a position about a quote formal distinction, which is really,

1217
01:15:24,920 --> 01:15:27,560
according to critics, and I would even agree with the Thomas,

1218
01:15:28,159 --> 01:15:30,239
it's kind of unclear as to what exactly that is.

1219
01:15:30,600 --> 01:15:35,560
And you know, in the Patristic tradition, when you have

1220
01:15:35,720 --> 01:15:39,399
the six Council or Maximus against Peuris at the sixth Council.

1221
01:15:39,479 --> 01:15:43,000
In his book, like he's not using these Scotist ideas,

1222
01:15:43,079 --> 01:15:45,760
he's just simply saying that now it's a real participation

1223
01:15:45,880 --> 01:15:48,239
in uncreated energies okay.

1224
01:15:48,520 --> 01:15:51,560
Speaker 21: And that leads to me just one more question, sorry,

1225
01:15:54,840 --> 01:15:57,960
motion with God? Like would are you okay with God?

1226
01:15:58,000 --> 01:16:00,199
Because you said I agree with the potentials. Actually they've

1227
01:16:00,239 --> 01:16:02,199
always agreed with that. It always bugged me that the

1228
01:16:02,520 --> 01:16:04,279
West kind of had issues with God's potentials.

1229
01:16:04,319 --> 01:16:04,720
Speaker 2: I think the.

1230
01:16:05,680 --> 01:16:09,239
Speaker 21: Protestant view actually, if you remember Calvinism, like the decreed

1231
01:16:09,319 --> 01:16:11,760
will and the permissive will, that kind of think.

1232
01:16:11,640 --> 01:16:13,560
Speaker 1: A line of thinking, well, this is more to do

1233
01:16:13,760 --> 01:16:17,840
with what's possible for God to do in time and space.

1234
01:16:18,760 --> 01:16:23,199
And so the ultimate difficulty here is number one, the Theophanes.

1235
01:16:23,319 --> 01:16:27,319
But when Roman Catholics struggle with or deny a Theophanes,

1236
01:16:27,640 --> 01:16:31,880
they don't even realize they're already negating the incarnation. Because

1237
01:16:31,920 --> 01:16:35,560
the incarnation is the second hypostasis of the Godhead becoming

1238
01:16:35,880 --> 01:16:39,359
incarnate in time and space. He's self limiting. So the

1239
01:16:39,399 --> 01:16:43,840
Philippians two passage, the Kenosis passage, means that the second

1240
01:16:43,920 --> 01:16:47,880
hypostasis is willfully limiting himself in time and space. The

1241
01:16:48,000 --> 01:16:51,159
Father is not becoming incarnate, the Spirit is not becoming incarnate.

1242
01:16:51,600 --> 01:16:54,600
So you need a metaphysics and a toolkit that allows

1243
01:16:54,840 --> 01:16:58,079
for one hypostasis to enter into a motive being that

1244
01:16:58,199 --> 01:17:02,399
the other two do not. But in Catholic absolute divine simplicity,

1245
01:17:02,840 --> 01:17:07,479
reducing God to actus purists and so forth negates already

1246
01:17:07,600 --> 01:17:11,000
the possibility of one hypostasis entering the time of space

1247
01:17:11,039 --> 01:17:13,079
that the other two don't, because in their view, if

1248
01:17:13,119 --> 01:17:15,920
God's reducible to essence, then it's the essence of God

1249
01:17:16,000 --> 01:17:20,119
that became incarnate. It's just stupid, yeah, and that is.

1250
01:17:20,159 --> 01:17:22,319
Speaker 2: It is something I've always had an issue.

1251
01:17:22,359 --> 01:17:25,199
Speaker 21: I think the adoption of the Thomas view in such

1252
01:17:25,199 --> 01:17:27,119
a grand sweep has been a problem with that. But

1253
01:17:27,800 --> 01:17:29,439
so then you would say, like, if I wanted to

1254
01:17:29,560 --> 01:17:31,640
argue against this, right, obviously I got to go do

1255
01:17:32,119 --> 01:17:36,199
Like I've been working on the people and fallibility stuff

1256
01:17:36,439 --> 01:17:39,079
for so long, I've been looking at your arguments for that.

1257
01:17:39,199 --> 01:17:39,319
Speaker 2: Right.

1258
01:17:39,359 --> 01:17:41,239
Speaker 1: Well, just look at Leviticus nine. It says that the

1259
01:17:41,359 --> 01:17:44,880
glory of the Lord appeared visibly to all the people.

1260
01:17:46,239 --> 01:17:48,560
Fire came down from God and consumed the burnt offering

1261
01:17:48,640 --> 01:17:50,720
on the altar. When the people saw it, they shouted

1262
01:17:50,760 --> 01:17:54,439
and fell in their faces. So here is a manifestation

1263
01:17:54,840 --> 01:17:58,680
of divine glory. Nobody believes divine glory as a creature,

1264
01:17:58,680 --> 01:18:01,279
as far as I've heard that would be idolatry just

1265
01:18:01,439 --> 01:18:06,560
to assign to a created thing divine glory. I mean,

1266
01:18:06,640 --> 01:18:08,560
that's definition of idea culture.

1267
01:18:09,239 --> 01:18:12,399
Speaker 2: You would say that, like humans never see the God's essence.

1268
01:18:12,119 --> 01:18:16,840
Speaker 1: Then correct, this is an energetic manifestation, a divine theophany,

1269
01:18:17,319 --> 01:18:19,520
which is the divine energies in time and space.

1270
01:18:20,439 --> 01:18:22,279
Speaker 21: This might be such a stupid question, but how would

1271
01:18:22,319 --> 01:18:26,520
you reconcile that with Like, first John, what specific sorry

1272
01:18:26,560 --> 01:18:28,560
specifically like we shall see him as he is.

1273
01:18:30,920 --> 01:18:35,000
Speaker 1: Well? But in Tewo Corinthians three he ascribes that aschotological

1274
01:18:35,039 --> 01:18:40,159
reality to the here and the now. He says, Moses

1275
01:18:40,239 --> 01:18:44,319
saw Christ's face to face, and what was unique and

1276
01:18:44,479 --> 01:18:46,920
rare in the Old Testament seeing Christ's face to face

1277
01:18:47,039 --> 01:18:50,720
on the mountain of Mount Sinai is now available to

1278
01:18:51,039 --> 01:18:56,239
the Orthodox in this life because glorification is here and now.

1279
01:18:56,319 --> 01:18:59,159
That's Paul's argument in St. Corinthiy's three, what was unique

1280
01:18:59,199 --> 01:19:01,159
in the Old Testament is now the norm for the

1281
01:19:01,239 --> 01:19:03,760
Christian of the New Testament. We see Christ face to face,

1282
01:19:03,840 --> 01:19:07,159
he says. He says, moving from glory to glory, that's

1283
01:19:07,199 --> 01:19:10,479
glorification here and now. So that's a reputation, by the way,

1284
01:19:10,520 --> 01:19:11,359
of beatific vision.

1285
01:19:12,640 --> 01:19:15,479
Speaker 21: So like First John three then and Red twenty two

1286
01:19:15,720 --> 01:19:18,680
is like, for you guys, it's Jesus in that specifically

1287
01:19:18,760 --> 01:19:21,039
Jesus in that view the incarnate face rather.

1288
01:19:20,920 --> 01:19:23,319
Speaker 2: Than the it would be no essence of the Father

1289
01:19:23,359 --> 01:19:23,760
or anything.

1290
01:19:24,239 --> 01:19:28,000
Speaker 1: Well, John saying eschatologically that we will all see him

1291
01:19:28,000 --> 01:19:31,000
as he is, does not deny it or negate that

1292
01:19:31,439 --> 01:19:33,399
in this life we also see him as he is.

1293
01:19:33,439 --> 01:19:36,560
For example, Stephen, when he's being stoned, he looks up

1294
01:19:36,600 --> 01:19:40,079
into heaven and he sees the uncreated light shining off

1295
01:19:40,119 --> 01:19:43,520
the face of Christ. He sees the uncreated glory here

1296
01:19:43,600 --> 01:19:46,640
and now. So even the Book of Acts was Stephen's martyrdom,

1297
01:19:46,680 --> 01:19:50,920
refutes the idea that First John is excluding anybody from

1298
01:19:50,960 --> 01:19:52,199
seeing that until the escatone.

1299
01:19:53,159 --> 01:19:57,039
Speaker 21: Okay, so just one last thing, just so, way, make

1300
01:19:57,079 --> 01:19:59,039
sure I'm headed down the right pathway here as I

1301
01:19:59,199 --> 01:20:01,640
try to, you know, engage this and hopefully come back

1302
01:20:01,680 --> 01:20:02,680
with an actual argument.

1303
01:20:02,800 --> 01:20:06,960
Speaker 2: Okay, that you would say that the main pinnacle of

1304
01:20:07,039 --> 01:20:08,439
this thing is like that, I.

1305
01:20:08,439 --> 01:20:11,680
Speaker 21: Would have to prove that we don't believe that the

1306
01:20:11,800 --> 01:20:15,560
U Christ is a created and created energy.

1307
01:20:15,760 --> 01:20:19,199
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, h Well, I mean it's already in Roman

1308
01:20:19,279 --> 01:20:21,600
Catholic dogma that it is a creature. So you can

1309
01:20:21,640 --> 01:20:25,239
look at Luluigot when he talks about sanctifying grace, he says,

1310
01:20:25,279 --> 01:20:27,800
it is a It is not God himself, It is

1311
01:20:27,880 --> 01:20:32,319
a supernatural created accident. So I think you're gonna have

1312
01:20:32,439 --> 01:20:34,840
to unless you can show that aught is wrong there

1313
01:20:34,920 --> 01:20:37,279
or something, I think you're going to have to go

1314
01:20:37,439 --> 01:20:39,319
down the route of saying that's a created God.

1315
01:20:40,560 --> 01:20:41,640
Speaker 2: So what would.

1316
01:20:43,119 --> 01:20:46,840
Speaker 21: If you could articulate, like like what I was trying

1317
01:20:46,840 --> 01:20:48,960
to do just now, which is like articulate the thing

1318
01:20:49,039 --> 01:20:51,720
that I need to refute but object to.

1319
01:20:52,479 --> 01:20:54,640
Speaker 1: Or rather, I guess, explain to me what the divinity

1320
01:20:54,800 --> 01:20:56,720
is that you're partaking of in the Eucharist.

1321
01:20:57,399 --> 01:20:59,079
Speaker 2: Okay, all right, that would be cool.

1322
01:20:59,560 --> 01:21:02,560
Speaker 1: All Right, I'm gonna while while while I have you,

1323
01:21:03,880 --> 01:21:08,600
let me show you exactly where, because we've already got

1324
01:21:08,720 --> 01:21:11,880
Roman Catholics or people that are saying they're Roman Catholic.

1325
01:21:11,920 --> 01:21:12,920
I don't know if they actually are.

1326
01:21:12,920 --> 01:21:17,319
Speaker 2: Or not, but because I know that, I mean obviously like.

1327
01:21:19,279 --> 01:21:23,600
Speaker 21: We we are partaking in the divine, like I understood

1328
01:21:23,640 --> 01:21:26,960
that very basic essence or essence that's rock words for

1329
01:21:27,079 --> 01:21:30,119
right now at a very basic level like that is

1330
01:21:30,159 --> 01:21:32,640
with the Yuchs alvias Is and coming from Protestant theology,

1331
01:21:34,680 --> 01:21:38,560
I for me, getting to the real presence point of

1332
01:21:38,640 --> 01:21:41,560
view took you know, a while or whatever, blah blah blah.

1333
01:21:41,640 --> 01:21:43,640
So now engaging this is just like it seems like

1334
01:21:43,680 --> 01:21:47,840
a whole nother hill. But I mean, I think it's necessary.

1335
01:21:47,880 --> 01:21:50,720
It's probably I would say, one of the pinnacles screwed

1336
01:21:50,760 --> 01:21:52,039
people and failability and stuff.

1337
01:21:52,079 --> 01:21:53,079
Speaker 2: This is more important.

1338
01:21:53,880 --> 01:21:56,359
Speaker 1: Actually, I agree with you because you know, when I

1339
01:21:56,560 --> 01:21:58,600
was back in two thousand and seven eight, when I

1340
01:21:58,640 --> 01:22:02,399
was kind of struggling between being Uniate or being Tradcat

1341
01:22:02,560 --> 01:22:05,560
or being Orthodox, you know, I'll put a lot of

1342
01:22:05,640 --> 01:22:07,880
time into papal stuff and I kept I found I

1343
01:22:07,920 --> 01:22:10,239
found that I kept going just in circles with papal

1344
01:22:10,359 --> 01:22:13,119
quotes and quote minds. And then then you find out

1345
01:22:13,159 --> 01:22:15,319
about forgeries, and it's like, how am I I'm never

1346
01:22:15,439 --> 01:22:19,000
getting anywhere with an infinite stream of papal quote minds.

1347
01:22:19,119 --> 01:22:22,760
And uh, that's when I started looking at the theological

1348
01:22:22,840 --> 01:22:27,079
issues more specifically versus the ecclesiastical and ultimately that's what

1349
01:22:27,239 --> 01:22:30,319
made me never go back to the Roman Catholic Church now. Uh,

1350
01:22:30,800 --> 01:22:32,920
in this arguent article that I wrote many years ago,

1351
01:22:33,319 --> 01:22:36,800
Roman Catholic absolute divine simplicity refuted. If you scroll down

1352
01:22:36,960 --> 01:22:41,399
past a lot of the refuge references, eventually I get

1353
01:22:41,439 --> 01:22:45,319
to the section on created grace. And my argument is

1354
01:22:45,399 --> 01:22:50,159
that created grace is solidified in a few different places,

1355
01:22:50,279 --> 01:22:52,359
one of which is the Council of Trent, which talks

1356
01:22:52,399 --> 01:22:56,640
about the fact that in baptism, when you're baptized, the

1357
01:22:56,800 --> 01:22:59,319
grace that you're getting and the righteousness that you're getting

1358
01:22:59,439 --> 01:23:03,279
is quote not God himself. It is not the righteousness

1359
01:23:03,399 --> 01:23:06,960
or justice of God, but it is a created reality

1360
01:23:07,039 --> 01:23:10,720
that makes you just That's in Trent Canon's ten and eleven.

1361
01:23:12,319 --> 01:23:17,159
And then if you go down to literally God, he says,

1362
01:23:17,279 --> 01:23:20,800
this is the sections in the funnels of Catholic dogma

1363
01:23:21,039 --> 01:23:27,239
on grace. Proposition number one is sanctifying grace is a created,

1364
01:23:28,159 --> 01:23:34,039
supernatural gift really distinct from God. So there you go

1365
01:23:34,159 --> 01:23:39,000
right there, and then literally contradicting that is proposition five.

1366
01:23:39,800 --> 01:23:44,279
Supernatural grace is a participation in the divine nature.

1367
01:23:45,600 --> 01:23:47,760
Speaker 2: Can you can you expand on that just a little

1368
01:23:47,760 --> 01:23:50,159
bit in terms of like what the contradiction.

1369
01:23:51,359 --> 01:23:53,800
Speaker 1: The divine nature is not a create your creature. So

1370
01:23:53,840 --> 01:23:58,960
if sanctifying grace is a creation distinct from God, then

1371
01:23:59,039 --> 01:24:02,680
it's not a part in the divine nature. But proposition

1372
01:24:02,840 --> 01:24:05,159
five says that it's a participation in the divine nature.

1373
01:24:08,359 --> 01:24:08,680
Speaker 2: Okay.

1374
01:24:08,920 --> 01:24:12,760
Speaker 21: My immediate thought is the sanctifying grace as a created

1375
01:24:12,800 --> 01:24:13,760
supernatural gift?

1376
01:24:14,279 --> 01:24:20,640
Speaker 2: Is it has less to do with the.

1377
01:24:22,399 --> 01:24:23,960
Speaker 21: I mean this is again the wrong word to use,

1378
01:24:24,000 --> 01:24:27,279
but the material or essence of the euchris and rather

1379
01:24:27,560 --> 01:24:28,079
the fact that.

1380
01:24:28,079 --> 01:24:36,000
Speaker 2: We are partaking in it, which would allow for supernatural grace. No,

1381
01:24:36,279 --> 01:24:40,479
that it actually doesn't work near mine? Okay. And this

1382
01:24:40,640 --> 01:24:41,079
articles on.

1383
01:24:41,079 --> 01:24:45,880
Speaker 1: Your site right, Yes, it's called Roman Catholic absolute divine

1384
01:24:45,920 --> 01:24:50,479
simplicity refuted. And okay, the towards the bottom is the

1385
01:24:50,600 --> 01:24:52,119
section on created grace.

1386
01:24:53,520 --> 01:24:57,079
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, I'll get this. And then you said Columbus

1387
01:24:57,800 --> 01:24:59,039
the eighty chapter.

1388
01:24:59,520 --> 01:25:02,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, the look, it's an eighty pages, it's not very long.

1389
01:25:02,840 --> 01:25:08,000
It's called Dialogue with a barleyon Mite. Okay, And you

1390
01:25:08,079 --> 01:25:13,439
can get that from NYU Press. It may be on Amazon.

1391
01:25:13,560 --> 01:25:17,960
I'm not sure what why is this not a matter

1392
01:25:18,079 --> 01:25:22,600
of debate more, We've been bringing it up for ten years.

1393
01:25:22,640 --> 01:25:23,000
Speaker 2: What do you mean?

1394
01:25:23,279 --> 01:25:26,720
Speaker 21: Like I keep seeing everyone debate again papal and fallibility.

1395
01:25:26,840 --> 01:25:30,079
Speaker 2: Like, I feel pretty confident in arguing for that.

1396
01:25:30,159 --> 01:25:32,239
Speaker 21: I feel pretty confident in arguing for the unity of

1397
01:25:32,279 --> 01:25:33,960
the Church and all that stuff against the Eastern. But

1398
01:25:34,119 --> 01:25:37,199
like this, I don't think I've ever seen an actual

1399
01:25:37,279 --> 01:25:39,720
debate on this. Is there anything you can point me

1400
01:25:39,720 --> 01:25:41,880
to that are remotely recent or now?

1401
01:25:43,840 --> 01:25:46,680
Speaker 1: There's no Roman Catholics that are smart enough to debate it.

1402
01:25:46,680 --> 01:25:49,119
They're stupid. I'm not being mean, it's just the fact

1403
01:25:49,439 --> 01:25:51,199
the last time there was an attempted debate on this

1404
01:25:51,600 --> 01:25:56,279
was just a conversation between me and Lofton eight years ago. Okay,

1405
01:25:56,359 --> 01:25:58,920
so there's a conversation between me and Michael Lofton. You

1406
01:25:58,960 --> 01:26:01,960
can still find it where I go through this book

1407
01:26:02,039 --> 01:26:04,199
right here, dialogue between Orthodox and borlow Man. By the way,

1408
01:26:04,199 --> 01:26:07,760
it's free online. I don't even realize it's on. You

1409
01:26:07,800 --> 01:26:10,920
could go to archive and just download it and print

1410
01:26:10,960 --> 01:26:12,119
it out if you don't want to say it's only

1411
01:26:12,199 --> 01:26:13,039
like twenty bucks.

1412
01:26:12,840 --> 01:26:15,920
Speaker 2: Though, yeah, I'll probably do that, and I'll go through

1413
01:26:15,920 --> 01:26:16,680
your article.

1414
01:26:17,439 --> 01:26:19,239
Speaker 1: You will see, by the way, if you read this book,

1415
01:26:20,840 --> 01:26:24,640
everything that you hear me, like the stuff that I argue,

1416
01:26:24,720 --> 01:26:25,479
it's all just from this.

1417
01:26:28,960 --> 01:26:35,000
Speaker 21: So does anything from Palamise like outside of this in

1418
01:26:35,119 --> 01:26:39,479
his theology, you know, raise questions for you at all

1419
01:26:39,600 --> 01:26:42,279
or no or it or you like is it? Do

1420
01:26:42,359 --> 01:26:45,039
you think he was articulated as a heretic in those things,

1421
01:26:45,159 --> 01:26:47,600
those that were done because they strictly flew in the

1422
01:26:47,640 --> 01:26:48,479
face of the West.

1423
01:26:49,039 --> 01:26:53,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, yeah, I know. He's one of our pillars

1424
01:26:53,520 --> 01:26:54,560
of worthotoxy so.

1425
01:26:54,760 --> 01:26:58,880
Speaker 2: Right, okay, awesome, Yeah, dude, I appreciate your time, precio.

1426
01:26:59,239 --> 01:27:01,159
I'm blocking it. I know we last time we had

1427
01:27:01,199 --> 01:27:02,359
a fucking yeah.

1428
01:27:02,199 --> 01:27:04,920
Speaker 1: Fat well that s there's a lot more civil conversations.

1429
01:27:04,920 --> 01:27:05,560
I appreciate it.

1430
01:27:06,199 --> 01:27:07,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, not me too, for sure.

1431
01:27:07,520 --> 01:27:10,520
Speaker 21: So I'll hopefully come back and throw throw an argument

1432
01:27:10,600 --> 01:27:13,159
together and you can shoot on it, so we'll see.

1433
01:27:13,319 --> 01:27:15,560
Speaker 1: No appreciate it. And I think we've got another one here.

1434
01:27:15,720 --> 01:27:17,840
Here's our other uni eate guy who's always wanted to

1435
01:27:17,880 --> 01:27:22,920
throw in the uniate stuff. Oh, I just took a

1436
01:27:22,960 --> 01:27:35,319
bunch of uniate argument notes. Go ahead, what's up? Are

1437
01:27:35,359 --> 01:27:36,199
you there, Jim?

1438
01:27:41,039 --> 01:27:41,239
Speaker 2: Jim?

1439
01:27:41,279 --> 01:27:47,760
Speaker 1: Are you there? Bond? Since twenty five, he says, is

1440
01:27:47,800 --> 01:27:50,399
Mount Tabor the only time that God the Father speaks

1441
01:27:50,439 --> 01:27:55,359
to man. Well, God of every action or every theophany

1442
01:27:55,560 --> 01:27:59,000
is triaddic. So no, but I think you're saying, like,

1443
01:27:59,159 --> 01:28:01,560
is that the only time that we hear an energetic

1444
01:28:01,920 --> 01:28:05,319
manifestation proper to the Father? Well, at christ Baptism, this

1445
01:28:05,560 --> 01:28:13,840
is my beloved Son. So even though that's an energy

1446
01:28:13,920 --> 01:28:16,520
proper to the Father, it is still triadic, right, just

1447
01:28:16,680 --> 01:28:19,560
like the Theophanes in the Old Testament, those are proper

1448
01:28:19,680 --> 01:28:22,439
to the Son. They're still triadic. And there's still a

1449
01:28:22,520 --> 01:28:25,079
sense in which it's the trinity as well. Now it's

1450
01:28:25,159 --> 01:28:28,000
not the whole triad or the divine essence in time

1451
01:28:28,039 --> 01:28:32,000
and space, but you never have, for example, the presence

1452
01:28:32,039 --> 01:28:34,520
of the Son without the Father and the Spirit with him,

1453
01:28:34,560 --> 01:28:35,760
because they endwell one another.

1454
01:28:36,439 --> 01:28:36,960
Speaker 2: Right, So.

1455
01:28:38,479 --> 01:28:41,239
Speaker 1: Where'd that gotta go? Jim? Where are you at?

1456
01:28:41,279 --> 01:28:41,359
Speaker 4: Man?

1457
01:28:41,560 --> 01:28:43,079
Speaker 1: Thought you're coming about? Here you go, Let's try again.

1458
01:28:44,640 --> 01:28:45,800
I think Jim's a union.

1459
01:28:48,079 --> 01:28:48,760
Speaker 10: Hey can you hear me?

1460
01:28:48,920 --> 01:28:49,119
Speaker 1: Yep?

1461
01:28:50,840 --> 01:28:51,439
Speaker 2: Hey can you hear me?

1462
01:28:52,680 --> 01:28:52,840
Speaker 10: Oh?

1463
01:28:52,960 --> 01:28:55,039
Speaker 4: Sorry, yeah, I was watching.

1464
01:28:55,439 --> 01:28:57,359
Speaker 2: My question is on natural theology.

1465
01:28:57,399 --> 01:28:58,159
Speaker 4: I was watching.

1466
01:28:59,479 --> 01:29:03,399
Speaker 2: An interview with Richard Swinberg and Bradshaw.

1467
01:29:03,359 --> 01:29:08,560
Speaker 23: And the thing to be advocating for natural theology in

1468
01:29:08,640 --> 01:29:12,920
a certain way, and my experience with it is the

1469
01:29:12,960 --> 01:29:15,520
Eastern northernox Church over the past century is kind of

1470
01:29:16,159 --> 01:29:19,840
skeptical of natural theology that we don't really advocate for it,

1471
01:29:20,520 --> 01:29:22,600
particularly would your.

1472
01:29:24,640 --> 01:29:27,039
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean I think doctor Bradshaw, like most academics,

1473
01:29:27,079 --> 01:29:30,520
as probably being as charitable and as amenable as possible.

1474
01:29:31,760 --> 01:29:35,359
The book that they put out about natural theology doesn't

1475
01:29:35,399 --> 01:29:38,560
really even address the Orthodox critique until a very late chapter,

1476
01:29:38,720 --> 01:29:41,399
and it basically just admits that. Yeah, some of the

1477
01:29:42,159 --> 01:29:44,560
you know, famous Greek theologians have been critical of it,

1478
01:29:44,720 --> 01:29:48,399
like Losky, some other Russian theologians too. I think I

1479
01:29:48,439 --> 01:29:50,479
mentioned about Britn's school. I forget who it says, but

1480
01:29:51,000 --> 01:29:52,680
the point being is that, yeah, well of course we

1481
01:29:52,800 --> 01:29:56,279
critique it. Losquit has many critiques of it. Stanielou has

1482
01:29:56,319 --> 01:29:56,960
critiques of it.

1483
01:29:57,960 --> 01:30:03,560
Speaker 23: Yeah, And is swin Bird an advocate of social trina

1484
01:30:03,680 --> 01:30:07,079
pairing Trinny and Terroanism because a good question.

1485
01:30:07,119 --> 01:30:10,159
Speaker 1: I don't actually know. I've read one critique of him.

1486
01:30:10,640 --> 01:30:13,319
He's a He's a Thomist, so I don't understand why

1487
01:30:13,359 --> 01:30:16,199
anybody wants to follow a Thomas and the Romanelly Church,

1488
01:30:16,279 --> 01:30:17,520
but I mean Northup Church.

1489
01:30:18,319 --> 01:30:22,399
Speaker 23: Yeah, he's so he's kind of a weird cat because

1490
01:30:22,439 --> 01:30:26,479
he is Orthodox. He says he's Orthodox, but then he's

1491
01:30:26,600 --> 01:30:28,399
like way off on some something.

1492
01:30:28,239 --> 01:30:31,800
Speaker 1: I know exactly. Yeah, the best critique of the best

1493
01:30:31,880 --> 01:30:34,840
critique of swinburn on this point is have you read

1494
01:30:34,920 --> 01:30:35,920
Theistic Fallacies?

1495
01:30:36,560 --> 01:30:36,600
Speaker 4: No?

1496
01:30:37,319 --> 01:30:38,720
Speaker 1: Oh, you got to read this. So this is an

1497
01:30:38,840 --> 01:30:46,560
article written by doctor Gariby and it's right here.

1498
01:30:46,880 --> 01:30:47,000
Speaker 7: Uh.

1499
01:30:47,119 --> 01:30:51,199
Speaker 1: He takes Swinburne as his chief example of someone to critique,

1500
01:30:51,279 --> 01:30:53,920
and he just takes him to wich Wood Shed. Basically,

1501
01:30:54,720 --> 01:30:58,880
all right, I'll check that out for doctor Gariby Theistic fallacies.

1502
01:30:59,720 --> 01:31:00,920
Speaker 4: As I'll check that out.

1503
01:31:01,000 --> 01:31:04,239
Speaker 23: And another thing is, you know, I don't I don't

1504
01:31:04,239 --> 01:31:06,920
know if you realize, but the guys like you and

1505
01:31:07,600 --> 01:31:13,039
let's say Joside trying to like uh, converts who started

1506
01:31:13,199 --> 01:31:16,159
in you know, as as Protestants.

1507
01:31:15,600 --> 01:31:20,159
Speaker 24: And major way all the way to Eastern Orthodoxy over

1508
01:31:20,279 --> 01:31:22,760
the you know, just the vast amount of communications and

1509
01:31:22,800 --> 01:31:25,720
information that's been available on the internet.

1510
01:31:26,319 --> 01:31:28,840
Speaker 23: You know, I was born into Greek Greek Orthodoxy in

1511
01:31:29,680 --> 01:31:34,279
the seventies and we had converts coming in and you know,

1512
01:31:34,479 --> 01:31:38,479
they just couldn't assimilate. Now, as we've become second and

1513
01:31:38,560 --> 01:31:41,079
third generation, it's changed and it said, you know, you

1514
01:31:41,159 --> 01:31:44,319
go to your Russian Orthodox Church and there's not just Russians.

1515
01:31:44,359 --> 01:31:47,520
Speaker 10: There's Americans, there's you know, Africans, there's Asians.

1516
01:31:47,840 --> 01:31:52,119
Speaker 4: It's all the stuff. But dude, keep going because you don't.

1517
01:31:52,199 --> 01:31:57,520
Speaker 23: I don't think you realize how like, really effective.

1518
01:31:57,520 --> 01:31:59,960
Speaker 4: It is when you have someone from with you know,

1519
01:32:00,039 --> 01:32:00,720
out like you or.

1520
01:32:00,760 --> 01:32:05,680
Speaker 23: Josiah Trump coming in and like communicating to the Massis.

1521
01:32:05,760 --> 01:32:08,920
And I'm surprised you're not like a lawyer for the

1522
01:32:09,359 --> 01:32:12,439
ecumenical patriarchy or something like that, because you'd be awesome.

1523
01:32:12,159 --> 01:32:13,800
Speaker 1: At well it'd have to be the CIA to do that,

1524
01:32:13,960 --> 01:32:18,199
So I'm not I thank you for your appreciate your compliments.

1525
01:32:18,399 --> 01:32:23,359
But stuff on DV fifteen dollars. The debate with Dasha

1526
01:32:23,479 --> 01:32:26,600
was pretty cool. People don't understand how the internet works. Anyway.

1527
01:32:27,119 --> 01:32:30,039
You see Islam taking over Western Europe. I'm in Switzerland,

1528
01:32:30,199 --> 01:32:32,359
so our turn is coming soon. How is it in

1529
01:32:32,399 --> 01:32:35,680
the USA? Is it a good option to move there? Well,

1530
01:32:35,720 --> 01:32:38,520
I've not been to Switzerland, so I can't speak to that,

1531
01:32:38,840 --> 01:32:40,840
but I mean, as far as I can tell, the

1532
01:32:40,960 --> 01:32:44,600
Nordic countries are being you know, islamicized as the rest

1533
01:32:44,680 --> 01:32:49,600
of Europe America is definitely way behind on Islamisization. It

1534
01:32:49,720 --> 01:32:53,960
has grown in the last few decades, for sure, So

1535
01:32:54,039 --> 01:32:56,640
there are more Muslims in America than there ever have been.

1536
01:32:56,720 --> 01:33:00,840
I think, you know, we drove to Vegas a few

1537
01:33:00,880 --> 01:33:04,119
months ago, and I noted that I saw, you know,

1538
01:33:04,439 --> 01:33:08,840
mosques on Indian reservations, so you know, moss are popping up.

1539
01:33:09,600 --> 01:33:11,880
But you don't see Muslims everywhere, you know, Like if

1540
01:33:11,920 --> 01:33:14,319
you go to London, it's londona's dan right. I went

1541
01:33:14,359 --> 01:33:17,680
in twenty nineteen. I give a talk there, and I mean,

1542
01:33:17,720 --> 01:33:21,239
it's just Muslims everywhere, so it's not like that, but

1543
01:33:21,319 --> 01:33:25,479
there's definitely more, so it would probably be a better experience.

1544
01:33:26,359 --> 01:33:30,640
I'm guessing depending upon where you move. Now, there's some

1545
01:33:30,800 --> 01:33:34,199
places in the US that have been like flooded with Muslims,

1546
01:33:34,960 --> 01:33:37,359
certain areas, so you might want to avoid those areas.

1547
01:33:37,399 --> 01:33:42,119
But I thought I missed somebody super traid. Let me

1548
01:33:42,159 --> 01:33:45,279
see Brandon Brands stutter for two dollars. Have you seen

1549
01:33:45,399 --> 01:33:48,960
Michael Horton's video on soul scripture? Now, I don't I

1550
01:33:49,039 --> 01:33:51,640
mean people, I think people think I keep up with

1551
01:33:51,720 --> 01:33:54,079
all these Protestant dudes, like I don't keep up with

1552
01:33:54,119 --> 01:33:56,439
an these people. In fact, people were asking me questions

1553
01:33:56,479 --> 01:34:00,560
about did you what about Dasha and Hurricane connections to

1554
01:34:00,720 --> 01:34:03,880
Bronze Age pervert and this and that and the Bronze Age.

1555
01:34:04,199 --> 01:34:06,560
I don't know anything about any of that. I mean,

1556
01:34:06,560 --> 01:34:10,039
I know who Bronze Age pervert is. I don't track

1557
01:34:10,159 --> 01:34:12,880
and keep up with who's attending what event and who's

1558
01:34:12,920 --> 01:34:14,880
part of Oh, that's part of the Peter Teele network

1559
01:34:14,920 --> 01:34:16,640
and this and that. I don't just don't know this stuff,

1560
01:34:16,760 --> 01:34:19,600
Like if you create your own content and do this

1561
01:34:19,640 --> 01:34:21,680
stuff all the time. By the way, I've been writing

1562
01:34:21,800 --> 01:34:25,199
Esa Clay with three of the last six months one year.

1563
01:34:25,800 --> 01:34:27,720
I don't have time to keep up with who's attending

1564
01:34:28,000 --> 01:34:31,159
damn socialite events. I just don't have time for him.

1565
01:34:31,159 --> 01:34:33,760
Speaker 10: Bro Us and.

1566
01:34:36,720 --> 01:34:44,720
Speaker 1: Scott Horton Sola script Solo solo Solar panel, Solar Scripture.

1567
01:34:51,520 --> 01:34:53,439
I don't even know what Scott Horton looks like. Is

1568
01:34:53,479 --> 01:34:57,920
that this boomer do here solo media? Is this him?

1569
01:35:01,399 --> 01:35:12,039
So ten thousand views? This is pitiful, dude. Like when

1570
01:35:12,039 --> 01:35:13,840
I hear the name Michael Horton, I think I thought

1571
01:35:13,840 --> 01:35:16,199
it was like a young guy. This is Michael Horton.

1572
01:35:16,239 --> 01:35:21,800
He looks like he looks like somebody's like dying uncle.

1573
01:35:22,000 --> 01:35:25,439
I didn't realize he was that old, but whatever, Look

1574
01:35:25,520 --> 01:35:31,199
he's me and he's me right, raife Ralph Silky ten

1575
01:35:31,239 --> 01:35:35,319
dollars Jay explain Calvin Robinson's version of Catholicism. It's very unusual.

1576
01:35:35,399 --> 01:35:36,840
I don't know what his view is. I mean, I

1577
01:35:36,880 --> 01:35:38,880
don't like I just asked him to come to a

1578
01:35:39,000 --> 01:35:44,439
debate twice and he just flipped out, so like he's

1579
01:35:45,039 --> 01:35:49,840
got this weird like superiority condescension complex that how dare

1580
01:35:49,920 --> 01:35:53,800
you ask me to debate you and your This just

1581
01:35:53,920 --> 01:35:57,640
shows you know how bad you are and this is

1582
01:35:57,720 --> 01:36:01,079
your stick and this and that, and I'm like, did

1583
01:36:01,119 --> 01:36:03,199
all I did was send you a DM saying would

1584
01:36:03,239 --> 01:36:05,760
you like to have a debate about the Philly oquay

1585
01:36:05,920 --> 01:36:08,479
or orthodoxy? Gethalsis? I mean, he sends me this big,

1586
01:36:08,600 --> 01:36:11,600
nasty like this is why you're such a piece of trash,

1587
01:36:11,960 --> 01:36:15,880
why you're so evil. It's like this is what people like,

1588
01:36:15,920 --> 01:36:19,479
Why would you post dms? Because people think that they

1589
01:36:19,520 --> 01:36:23,199
think that I'm just like this randomly just rude person,

1590
01:36:23,279 --> 01:36:25,680
like I'm just going around being rude. Well, you publicly

1591
01:36:25,760 --> 01:36:28,640
said that he was scared. Yeah, after I DMed him

1592
01:36:28,760 --> 01:36:31,039
twice over several months to see if you'd like to

1593
01:36:31,079 --> 01:36:35,680
have a conversation. And now, oh, he's now becoming a

1594
01:36:35,760 --> 01:36:39,039
branch of old Catholics. Well guess what. Old Catholics are.

1595
01:36:39,239 --> 01:36:42,119
A bunch of skittles and spooks if you didn't know,

1596
01:36:43,159 --> 01:36:47,640
and a bunch of occultist. So that's even worse that

1597
01:36:47,760 --> 01:36:50,439
he thinks he's an old Catholic. By the way, there

1598
01:36:50,479 --> 01:36:53,119
was an old Catholic weirdo guy following me and tweeting

1599
01:36:53,159 --> 01:36:55,600
at me, and I'm pretty sure he was Skittles and

1600
01:36:55,680 --> 01:36:59,479
I ended up blocking that dude. We had a meltdown.

1601
01:37:05,840 --> 01:37:07,359
By the way, why again, as I said at the

1602
01:37:07,399 --> 01:37:11,319
very beginning of the stream, like educated people are supposed

1603
01:37:11,359 --> 01:37:15,600
to expect to have people pushing back and asking to

1604
01:37:15,680 --> 01:37:16,960
do a formal debate. All you have to do is

1605
01:37:16,960 --> 01:37:20,880
say no. But he acts like, oh my gosh, look

1606
01:37:20,920 --> 01:37:24,079
at the audacity that someone would ask me to do

1607
01:37:24,159 --> 01:37:30,720
a public formal debate about the Philly OK, what's up, hello, Jake?

1608
01:37:32,800 --> 01:37:36,800
Speaker 22: Uh My question is more gear towards how would you

1609
01:37:36,880 --> 01:37:42,479
convince someone that is a theist of Christianity in particular

1610
01:37:43,279 --> 01:37:46,199
as somebody that's gotten to the point where I am

1611
01:37:46,880 --> 01:37:49,560
convinced generally of the existence of a God.

1612
01:37:50,439 --> 01:37:52,239
Speaker 1: How would you get me to the point of Well,

1613
01:37:52,560 --> 01:37:54,680
I'm not trying to be read to you, but like today,

1614
01:37:54,960 --> 01:37:59,279
the topics are very specific. They're specified as Protestant, Calic Orthodox,

1615
01:37:59,319 --> 01:38:02,800
So we're not doing deism today, we're not doing atheism.

1616
01:38:03,479 --> 01:38:05,920
If you do want to talk about that, definitely look

1617
01:38:05,960 --> 01:38:09,159
for another situation, Scott Grace, This looks like a Protestant

1618
01:38:09,239 --> 01:38:12,760
man here, he's got Protestant pastor vibes.

1619
01:38:12,800 --> 01:38:17,920
Speaker 10: What's up, Scott, Hey, j how's it going. So?

1620
01:38:18,119 --> 01:38:22,119
Speaker 25: I was calling in today because I wanted to debate perseverance.

1621
01:38:21,520 --> 01:38:22,039
Speaker 10: Of the Saints.

1622
01:38:25,119 --> 01:38:30,439
Speaker 1: Well, okay, that goes along with the rest of Tulip right,

1623
01:38:30,600 --> 01:38:33,520
So are you a full on Calvinist or you just want.

1624
01:38:33,439 --> 01:38:33,960
Speaker 2: To do that one?

1625
01:38:35,000 --> 01:38:37,880
Speaker 25: Uh, that one in particular, although I would be totally

1626
01:38:37,920 --> 01:38:41,640
open to doing more in the future. So there's a

1627
01:38:41,680 --> 01:38:44,399
lot of different ways that we can go with this debate.

1628
01:38:44,560 --> 01:38:45,800
I know it's very nebulous.

1629
01:38:46,079 --> 01:38:47,600
Speaker 1: Well let me ask you this question for it, like

1630
01:38:47,680 --> 01:38:50,199
do you so? I mean, for for example, a person

1631
01:38:50,239 --> 01:38:53,479
could be an Augustinian and believe in the perseverance that

1632
01:38:53,560 --> 01:38:56,079
gifts of the perseverance and also believe that you fall

1633
01:38:56,159 --> 01:38:59,520
away and apostotize. So are you are you defending a

1634
01:38:59,560 --> 01:39:02,800
full Calvinists position or Augustinian position or what.

1635
01:39:03,079 --> 01:39:05,680
Speaker 25: I would say the position would be more Calvinist in nature,

1636
01:39:06,560 --> 01:39:09,680
because I believe that if someone is truly saved that

1637
01:39:09,840 --> 01:39:11,760
they will persevere to the end.

1638
01:39:13,479 --> 01:39:15,720
Speaker 10: I don't know if that clears anything up, but well.

1639
01:39:15,600 --> 01:39:18,000
Speaker 1: I mean, this seems like no true Scotsman fallacy to

1640
01:39:18,119 --> 01:39:21,039
just read state what it means to quote be truly saved,

1641
01:39:21,159 --> 01:39:24,439
because for example, in Hebrew six people partake of the

1642
01:39:24,479 --> 01:39:27,199
Holy Spirit. They eat of the you know, a good

1643
01:39:27,399 --> 01:39:29,079
word of God and the powers of the age to come,

1644
01:39:29,159 --> 01:39:30,640
and then they can apostatize.

1645
01:39:32,239 --> 01:39:36,479
Speaker 25: So when we're talking about this topic, I would refer

1646
01:39:36,600 --> 01:39:40,399
to Versus in John for example. Within the context of

1647
01:39:40,479 --> 01:39:43,399
the verses, you know, they talk about that they were

1648
01:39:43,479 --> 01:39:48,600
with us, they participated in church, they were believers, but

1649
01:39:49,479 --> 01:39:52,039
since they left, it proved that they were never really

1650
01:39:52,199 --> 01:39:52,560
with us.

1651
01:39:52,880 --> 01:39:55,479
Speaker 1: Well, that's one class of people who might have been

1652
01:39:56,199 --> 01:39:59,760
subverters or infiltrators. But there's another class of people in Hebrews,

1653
01:39:59,800 --> 01:40:03,039
say who partake of the gift of the Holy Spirit

1654
01:40:03,159 --> 01:40:05,039
and the life to come, and who fall away.

1655
01:40:06,199 --> 01:40:09,159
Speaker 25: So with the first verse, we don't exactly know if

1656
01:40:09,159 --> 01:40:11,880
they were infiltrators, I think, and it's okay to read

1657
01:40:11,920 --> 01:40:14,640
into the text. You may be right on that, but

1658
01:40:14,800 --> 01:40:18,439
we don't exactly know. Just looking at the verse in itself,

1659
01:40:18,560 --> 01:40:21,359
I think it's easy to come away with some underlying principle.

1660
01:40:21,920 --> 01:40:23,920
Speaker 10: But even in John ten it talks about it.

1661
01:40:24,399 --> 01:40:26,439
Speaker 1: You're missing the point. You're missing the point.

1662
01:40:26,479 --> 01:40:28,359
Speaker 10: Well not Paris, and no one will snatch them out

1663
01:40:28,359 --> 01:40:28,800
of my hand.

1664
01:40:28,880 --> 01:40:31,600
Speaker 1: You're missing the point. So I understand what you're saying

1665
01:40:31,640 --> 01:40:35,319
about first John, but I'm saying that it doesn't matter

1666
01:40:35,680 --> 01:40:39,880
if in that situation those people were never amongst us

1667
01:40:40,119 --> 01:40:44,359
or whatever. When you go to Hebrew six, there is

1668
01:40:44,479 --> 01:40:48,840
clearly another class of people who do have a partaking

1669
01:40:49,000 --> 01:40:51,279
of the heavenly gift and the Holy Spirit and taste

1670
01:40:51,319 --> 01:40:52,920
of the word of the Word of God and the

1671
01:40:53,000 --> 01:40:54,560
age to come, and they fall away.

1672
01:40:55,399 --> 01:40:58,239
Speaker 10: Yes, So I want to address that now as well.

1673
01:40:59,000 --> 01:41:01,680
So with that verse, I don't think.

1674
01:41:01,560 --> 01:41:05,079
Speaker 25: That that's necessarily a concrete example, because we also see

1675
01:41:05,800 --> 01:41:08,800
that in the end times when people come to Christ

1676
01:41:09,239 --> 01:41:12,079
and he says I never knew you. Their response is

1677
01:41:12,119 --> 01:41:15,479
that we prophesied in your name, We cast out demons

1678
01:41:15,520 --> 01:41:16,119
in your name.

1679
01:41:17,720 --> 01:41:21,079
Speaker 1: Sir, assuming that there's one senseil knowing.

1680
01:41:21,279 --> 01:41:24,239
Speaker 10: Hold on, hold on, clearly you can have gifts of

1681
01:41:24,359 --> 01:41:26,159
the spirit. I mean, Judas was a part of the

1682
01:41:26,239 --> 01:41:28,600
Twelve Apostles. He was out there healing people.

1683
01:41:31,840 --> 01:41:34,079
Speaker 1: What does it mean to be enlightened in the New Testament?

1684
01:41:35,840 --> 01:41:38,000
Speaker 10: Explain what it means to me.

1685
01:41:39,800 --> 01:41:43,279
Speaker 25: I would say, to have an understanding of Christ, have

1686
01:41:43,319 --> 01:41:44,920
an understanding that the God had nobody.

1687
01:41:45,119 --> 01:41:46,680
Speaker 1: And what does it mean to become a partaker of

1688
01:41:46,720 --> 01:41:49,479
the spirit, That you.

1689
01:41:49,600 --> 01:41:53,239
Speaker 25: Are participating in things of the Holy Spirit. So you're

1690
01:41:53,319 --> 01:41:56,199
going to church, you're partaking in the sacraments.

1691
01:41:55,640 --> 01:41:56,119
Speaker 10: Things like that.

1692
01:41:56,319 --> 01:41:59,000
Speaker 1: Okay, so you just redefine it to be everything external

1693
01:41:59,119 --> 01:42:01,800
and nothing internal, because enlightenment is not external.

1694
01:42:02,600 --> 01:42:04,239
Speaker 10: I would agree it's internal as well.

1695
01:42:04,840 --> 01:42:06,960
Speaker 1: Just wait a minute, so now it's internal.

1696
01:42:07,760 --> 01:42:10,600
Speaker 10: Internally, Okay, that doesn't necessarily.

1697
01:42:10,199 --> 01:42:12,239
Speaker 1: Can they can they spring up? Can it be a

1698
01:42:12,399 --> 01:42:14,880
springing up to new life? Like the Parable talks about

1699
01:42:15,000 --> 01:42:15,840
the Parable of the Sower.

1700
01:42:16,479 --> 01:42:18,760
Speaker 25: Well, I would say, if you have if you're reborn,

1701
01:42:18,960 --> 01:42:21,000
if you're reborn in Christ, then I would say that

1702
01:42:21,079 --> 01:42:22,840
you were saved individual.

1703
01:42:22,640 --> 01:42:26,920
Speaker 1: Does the parable of the sewer? Does the parable of

1704
01:42:27,079 --> 01:42:33,560
the sower mention a new life that springs forth and dies? Yes,

1705
01:42:36,319 --> 01:42:39,159
but you just said if new life springs forth, you

1706
01:42:39,279 --> 01:42:39,760
can't die.

1707
01:42:42,319 --> 01:42:45,079
Speaker 10: I would have to study the context of that verse.

1708
01:42:47,520 --> 01:43:02,920
Speaker 1: For sure, child papist. Can you explain Calvin Robbins Catholicism.

1709
01:43:03,439 --> 01:43:06,159
I don't know. It's the lowest common de nominator. Anglican

1710
01:43:06,239 --> 01:43:10,760
branch theory is kind of the proto Ecumenism. It's the

1711
01:43:10,880 --> 01:43:16,600
origins of Ecumenism. So Calvin Robinson's version of it seems

1712
01:43:16,640 --> 01:43:20,920
to go from Anglican to old Catholic to who knows,

1713
01:43:22,159 --> 01:43:25,800
So it's not Catholicism. It's lowest common de nominator proto ecumenism,

1714
01:43:26,840 --> 01:43:27,920
child papist, I'm you.

1715
01:43:30,199 --> 01:43:35,840
Speaker 26: I had a question on a actus purist and divine

1716
01:43:35,880 --> 01:43:38,840
simplicity and stuff. It just sounds like a repeat. Feel

1717
01:43:38,880 --> 01:43:41,640
free to like cut me off and directly to like

1718
01:43:41,680 --> 01:43:44,920
a source where you've already explained it. But I'm in

1719
01:43:45,000 --> 01:43:48,399
this medieval philosophy class and I'm trying to write against

1720
01:43:48,479 --> 01:43:51,399
actus purists, and one argument that they use is that

1721
01:43:52,479 --> 01:43:56,720
I try to say that, well, actus purists can't work

1722
01:43:56,920 --> 01:43:59,800
because then guy would have to be eternally acting. And

1723
01:44:00,079 --> 01:44:02,880
they say, oh, well he could have willed eternally to

1724
01:44:02,960 --> 01:44:05,760
act at that particular time, Like what, I don't know

1725
01:44:05,800 --> 01:44:06,640
how to respond to that.

1726
01:44:06,880 --> 01:44:09,760
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, the Vine revelation says that he ceased

1727
01:44:09,880 --> 01:44:12,640
from the work of creating, so that alone should be

1728
01:44:12,760 --> 01:44:15,560
enough to refute God as identical to act as peers.

1729
01:44:15,880 --> 01:44:18,800
If you watch the debate between Bradshaw and Toomashevsky, the

1730
01:44:18,880 --> 01:44:23,880
Tomas this comes up and Tom Bradshaw says, well, when

1731
01:44:23,920 --> 01:44:26,560
it says God rested from creating, it seems like he's

1732
01:44:27,319 --> 01:44:31,680
not doing something that he was doing. And Thomas says, hmm,

1733
01:44:31,840 --> 01:44:32,319
good point.

1734
01:44:33,399 --> 01:44:35,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, what's what's that called? Bradshaw?

1735
01:44:37,319 --> 01:44:41,960
Speaker 1: I think it was on Sue on Sona's channel, and

1736
01:44:42,079 --> 01:44:44,720
it's like Bradshaw and I don't even know how to

1737
01:44:44,760 --> 01:44:47,600
spell that guy's name, Tomas. But if you look up

1738
01:44:49,800 --> 01:44:54,920
Sue on Sona's channel, I forget to do it's something

1739
01:44:55,039 --> 01:44:59,479
like intellectual conservatism or I don't forget, I remember his

1740
01:44:59,600 --> 01:44:59,920
channel is.

1741
01:45:06,239 --> 01:45:10,000
Speaker 26: So it couldn't be the case that if he ceases

1742
01:45:10,079 --> 01:45:12,000
from creating, like, it couldn't be the case that he

1743
01:45:12,039 --> 01:45:14,319
could have just willed to stop creating at that point

1744
01:45:14,319 --> 01:45:15,159
in time eternally.

1745
01:45:16,399 --> 01:45:18,399
Speaker 1: Well, the point is that his will is identical to

1746
01:45:18,479 --> 01:45:19,800
his essence intumism.

1747
01:45:20,399 --> 01:45:23,399
Speaker 4: Oh right, yeah, I guess that's true.

1748
01:45:23,720 --> 01:45:26,439
Speaker 1: Okay, So his channel is intellectual Catholicism.

1749
01:45:26,520 --> 01:45:29,800
Speaker 2: Excuse me, and welcome to this episode of intellectual If

1750
01:45:29,880 --> 01:45:30,319
you go to.

1751
01:45:30,439 --> 01:45:39,720
Speaker 1: His channel, you can search for Bradshaw actual catholicismshaw Okay,

1752
01:45:39,720 --> 01:45:42,000
and it's the second one that comes up. It's Palmism

1753
01:45:42,079 --> 01:45:44,800
and Thomism Bradshaw and Christopher Tomaszewski.

1754
01:45:46,319 --> 01:45:48,199
Speaker 2: Okay, I see it. Thanks. Yeah.

1755
01:45:48,279 --> 01:45:50,800
Speaker 1: So they actually have a pretty extended discussion on this

1756
01:45:50,920 --> 01:45:52,760
specific topic that would be perfect for you.

1757
01:45:54,159 --> 01:45:54,840
Speaker 2: All right, thank you.

1758
01:45:55,119 --> 01:45:58,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a great question. Also, if you really want

1759
01:45:58,800 --> 01:46:02,039
to get into it, you can to get uh doctor

1760
01:46:02,159 --> 01:46:10,760
tikon Pino's dissertation book right here. It's Essence and Energies,

1761
01:46:13,000 --> 01:46:16,640
Being and Naming God in Secretary pemas.

1762
01:46:21,239 --> 01:46:21,359
Speaker 7: Uh.

1763
01:46:21,840 --> 01:46:25,079
Speaker 1: I think we're gonna do last one. I'm getting pretty tired, Hawsani,

1764
01:46:25,159 --> 01:46:25,439
what's up?

1765
01:46:25,520 --> 01:46:27,479
Speaker 20: Dog m?

1766
01:46:31,000 --> 01:46:31,720
Speaker 1: What's on your mind?

1767
01:46:31,960 --> 01:46:36,119
Speaker 2: You that it's a little bit off topic, so of you.

1768
01:46:39,119 --> 01:46:43,680
Speaker 1: You there, you're cutting out, man, We can't heard you.

1769
01:46:48,199 --> 01:46:49,279
Last one. Nico Damus.

1770
01:46:49,439 --> 01:47:08,079
Speaker 27: What's up, Dudek. Good on you, Niko Davis, you want

1771
01:47:08,079 --> 01:47:08,359
to I'm you?

1772
01:47:14,560 --> 01:47:17,960
Speaker 12: Hello, Jay, thanks for taking me on. Glad I got

1773
01:47:18,039 --> 01:47:19,840
these in. I got some questions that are kind of

1774
01:47:20,600 --> 01:47:24,119
threw me off a bit. I heard another content creator

1775
01:47:24,560 --> 01:47:28,159
who is identified as Orthodox make some claims that I've.

1776
01:47:28,000 --> 01:47:28,880
Speaker 4: Heard for the first time.

1777
01:47:29,039 --> 01:47:30,520
Speaker 2: So would you mind telling what.

1778
01:47:30,600 --> 01:47:33,760
Speaker 12: You believe the official Orthodox stances on these two things?

1779
01:47:33,840 --> 01:47:38,119
I greatly appreciate it, sure, thanks sir. The first one

1780
01:47:38,520 --> 01:47:42,760
is about John the Baptist being the last prophet.

1781
01:47:42,920 --> 01:47:44,039
Speaker 2: That's the first time I ever heard of that.

1782
01:47:45,399 --> 01:47:47,840
Speaker 1: Well, I think Jesus says that in Luke sixteen sixteen,

1783
01:47:48,079 --> 01:47:51,319
so he says that the law and the prophets were

1784
01:47:51,439 --> 01:47:53,800
until John, and since that time the Kingdom of Heaven

1785
01:47:53,840 --> 01:47:58,600
has preached. So it's definitely the term profit is used

1786
01:47:59,079 --> 01:48:02,319
for appalls and people in the New Testament, but I

1787
01:48:02,399 --> 01:48:05,479
think it's a different sense from what we think of

1788
01:48:05,640 --> 01:48:08,800
as the office of an Old Testament prophet, because Christ

1789
01:48:08,920 --> 01:48:11,600
is the final prophet, priestinc king. So you do see

1790
01:48:11,640 --> 01:48:14,119
people like Agabus and you know others in the Book

1791
01:48:14,159 --> 01:48:16,000
of Acts who have the gift of prophecy, and we

1792
01:48:16,039 --> 01:48:19,920
would agree that you know, saints have clairvoyance or the

1793
01:48:19,960 --> 01:48:22,319
gift of prophesying, and prophesying, by the way, is also

1794
01:48:22,520 --> 01:48:26,640
just preaching, it's not just predicting the future. So but

1795
01:48:26,760 --> 01:48:28,520
in this in the Old Testament sense, yes, I think

1796
01:48:28,560 --> 01:48:30,079
Luke sixteen sixteen is saying that.

1797
01:48:31,000 --> 01:48:31,399
Speaker 2: I see.

1798
01:48:31,520 --> 01:48:36,760
Speaker 12: So in other words, a prophet and prophet and prophecy

1799
01:48:36,840 --> 01:48:40,159
is not exactly one and the same two separate things

1800
01:48:40,159 --> 01:48:44,199
as well. All right, my god, thanks, Well, I just.

1801
01:48:44,199 --> 01:48:47,079
Speaker 1: Think there's a difference in like the what we think

1802
01:48:47,159 --> 01:48:50,640
of as an Old Testament prophet like Ezekiel or Malachi,

1803
01:48:50,840 --> 01:48:54,319
and you know what they're looking forward to versus what

1804
01:48:54,520 --> 01:48:58,520
Jesus says is the end of that era, that age, right,

1805
01:48:58,600 --> 01:49:00,279
he says that the law and the profit if it's

1806
01:49:00,279 --> 01:49:03,039
work until John and since that time the Kingdom of

1807
01:49:03,079 --> 01:49:05,600
Heaven has preached. And that's Luke sixteen sixteen.

1808
01:49:06,119 --> 01:49:07,880
Speaker 12: Okay, all right, So the gifts that we get, like

1809
01:49:07,960 --> 01:49:11,680
you're saying, the clearvoyants and so on, that's a little

1810
01:49:11,800 --> 01:49:12,520
different than.

1811
01:49:12,800 --> 01:49:16,680
Speaker 2: Than than that. Okay, all right.

1812
01:49:16,760 --> 01:49:20,960
Speaker 12: So the second thing was the Theodore was being sinless. Again,

1813
01:49:21,039 --> 01:49:23,199
that's a new one to me too. Is that an

1814
01:49:23,279 --> 01:49:24,880
official orthodox belief that the.

1815
01:49:26,720 --> 01:49:28,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I have a video that you could do

1816
01:49:29,800 --> 01:49:33,920
that's it's a lengthier take on this because we have

1817
01:49:34,000 --> 01:49:38,600
a much more fleshed out, sort of holistic view that

1818
01:49:38,760 --> 01:49:41,399
Mary was also predicted in the Old Testament, and so

1819
01:49:41,600 --> 01:49:44,880
she's the new Eve. She's what is the Temple of

1820
01:49:44,880 --> 01:49:48,079
Ezekiel forty four? She has the door that opens and

1821
01:49:48,199 --> 01:49:51,640
never that the Messiah goes through, but it's never opened,

1822
01:49:52,239 --> 01:49:54,920
so she's ever virgin. So there's a lot of things

1823
01:49:54,960 --> 01:49:57,600
that go into this, as well as Revelation twelve Queen

1824
01:49:57,680 --> 01:50:02,680
of Heaven. So our dog of the Spotless version, which

1825
01:50:02,720 --> 01:50:05,079
is not the same thing as the Roman Catholic Immaculate

1826
01:50:05,159 --> 01:50:10,199
conception teaching our doctrine is derived from a lot of passages,

1827
01:50:10,479 --> 01:50:15,159
interpreting those passages as well as church tradition. So now

1828
01:50:15,199 --> 01:50:18,039
there's not an explicit text that says Mary is the

1829
01:50:18,119 --> 01:50:21,319
Simleus version. But thank you for that question. We'll go

1830
01:50:21,439 --> 01:50:23,840
to Hasani and a couple of other other people getting

1831
01:50:23,840 --> 01:50:25,319
I'm just getting really tired, so you guys can call

1832
01:50:25,399 --> 01:50:26,560
back in next time. Last supper.

1833
01:50:26,640 --> 01:50:27,000
Speaker 2: What's up?

1834
01:50:29,880 --> 01:50:32,039
Speaker 1: If you go to YouTube my video and Mary. The

1835
01:50:32,239 --> 01:50:36,119
longer video it's called Veneration of Mary in the Bible

1836
01:50:36,199 --> 01:50:38,840
or something like that. What's up last day, last.

1837
01:50:38,680 --> 01:50:42,800
Speaker 28: Supper on your whistle, Jake Hey, So I was reading

1838
01:50:42,920 --> 01:50:46,399
up on sing Guria Poulamas, and in the section the

1839
01:50:46,479 --> 01:50:50,640
Philolia in the defense of those who devoutly practice the

1840
01:50:50,680 --> 01:50:54,000
life of Stillness, if you're going down to section eleven,

1841
01:50:54,319 --> 01:50:57,399
he mentioned Saint Nilos of Italy.

1842
01:51:02,800 --> 01:51:03,000
Speaker 2: St.

1843
01:51:03,079 --> 01:51:09,920
Speaker 28: Nilos of Italy and then and Elias, which I believe

1844
01:51:09,920 --> 01:51:13,920
they're both from Colabrio. But the interesting thing about Nilos

1845
01:51:14,039 --> 01:51:18,199
is that he founded the monastery of Gratto Ferrada, and

1846
01:51:19,560 --> 01:51:25,399
after this schism they still remained a Byzantine Greek monastery,

1847
01:51:25,800 --> 01:51:27,800
but they were they were in communion with Rome.

1848
01:51:28,800 --> 01:51:33,720
Speaker 29: So it's it's really interesting because Saint Nilos is mentioned

1849
01:51:33,760 --> 01:51:37,239
by Saint Gregory Palamas, and then the nearest saint to

1850
01:51:37,439 --> 01:51:41,039
him was after the schism, I believe in ten sixty,

1851
01:51:41,039 --> 01:51:44,399
which is Saint Peter of Gratto Ferrada. So if they

1852
01:51:44,520 --> 01:51:48,880
never accepted the created grace, which is uh, is that

1853
01:51:49,000 --> 01:51:50,319
totalistic the created grace?

1854
01:51:52,199 --> 01:51:54,399
Speaker 1: Ultimately? I mean, I think it's in Augustine, but yes,

1855
01:51:54,840 --> 01:51:55,760
Tim Bose of them.

1856
01:51:56,279 --> 01:51:56,840
Speaker 2: Oh gotcha?

1857
01:51:56,920 --> 01:51:57,199
Speaker 10: Okay?

1858
01:51:57,880 --> 01:52:01,720
Speaker 30: Well either way though, I was just kind of like

1859
01:52:01,800 --> 01:52:04,560
wondering like what would make their or taking in the

1860
01:52:04,600 --> 01:52:09,520
communion become in vain or like not Orthodox if they

1861
01:52:09,520 --> 01:52:13,560
were sticking to the teaching of Nilos, who who founded

1862
01:52:13,600 --> 01:52:14,119
the monastery.

1863
01:52:14,199 --> 01:52:16,119
Speaker 1: Because yeah, I mean, I don't I don't have a

1864
01:52:16,239 --> 01:52:18,600
I don't have a problem saying that, you know, I

1865
01:52:18,640 --> 01:52:21,520
want to have as much flexibility during that period as possible.

1866
01:52:21,640 --> 01:52:25,840
So I mean it's not like I think that the

1867
01:52:27,119 --> 01:52:32,000
severance comes not so much when things are unclear, but

1868
01:52:32,159 --> 01:52:36,359
when people affirm like lions or something like that.

1869
01:52:39,439 --> 01:52:41,159
Speaker 2: Gotcha. So it's a little bit later.

1870
01:52:41,119 --> 01:52:43,239
Speaker 1: Than that, I would say. So, yeah, I mean, I'm

1871
01:52:43,279 --> 01:52:45,560
sure that probably a lot of people in the in

1872
01:52:45,680 --> 01:52:50,119
those places at that time probably had an Orthodox conception.

1873
01:52:51,239 --> 01:52:54,079
Speaker 28: It's interesting because that monastery is still there today.

1874
01:52:54,159 --> 01:52:55,680
Speaker 2: So if they never accepted the.

1875
01:52:57,239 --> 01:52:59,920
Speaker 4: The kind of Western claims, but they still stayed in

1876
01:53:00,039 --> 01:53:01,079
community with Rome.

1877
01:53:01,159 --> 01:53:04,039
Speaker 1: Well it's not I mean it's like eventually though, like

1878
01:53:04,319 --> 01:53:06,680
being quote in community with Rome means that you are

1879
01:53:07,279 --> 01:53:12,439
also by you know, by default accepting the Roman Catholic

1880
01:53:12,520 --> 01:53:17,359
cumenical councils and the things that they reject. So you know,

1881
01:53:17,439 --> 01:53:21,239
when exactly that is, I don't know where is this,

1882
01:53:21,359 --> 01:53:21,760
Where is this.

1883
01:53:22,399 --> 01:53:25,239
Speaker 4: Can you tell me what it's see? I was listening

1884
01:53:25,319 --> 01:53:27,640
to it on on audio then I had to find it.

1885
01:53:27,760 --> 01:53:30,720
So it's in in the defense of those who.

1886
01:53:30,680 --> 01:53:33,199
Speaker 1: Developed No, no, no, where's the monster. I'm just curious

1887
01:53:33,199 --> 01:53:33,720
because we were.

1888
01:53:33,680 --> 01:53:38,920
Speaker 2: In it all. It's called it's in. I don't think

1889
01:53:38,920 --> 01:53:43,159
it's in collaborate it's in. Uh, it's a it's near Roome.

1890
01:53:44,279 --> 01:53:46,880
Speaker 1: Okay, because we went to a lot of places. I'm

1891
01:53:46,920 --> 01:53:50,079
trying to see if we Oh, I don't think we

1892
01:53:50,159 --> 01:53:50,520
went here.

1893
01:53:52,199 --> 01:53:56,840
Speaker 4: Grotto Ferrata, it might be the town actually, Okay.

1894
01:53:56,680 --> 01:54:03,079
Speaker 1: That's a metropolitan city of the Roman capital and founded

1895
01:54:03,119 --> 01:54:04,479
by Saint Nihiles the Younger.

1896
01:54:09,159 --> 01:54:10,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, I believe that's the same. Uh.

1897
01:54:11,199 --> 01:54:16,720
Speaker 28: Nilis that Saint Gregory Palamas mentioned Nilas of Italy Rosano.

1898
01:54:18,359 --> 01:54:21,960
It's crazy because Barlin comes from Calabria too, but obviously

1899
01:54:22,039 --> 01:54:24,439
that's much later. He doesn't have ties to this this

1900
01:54:24,640 --> 01:54:28,840
Nilus who is from Calabria as well, and is from

1901
01:54:28,920 --> 01:54:29,880
Calabria as well too.

1902
01:54:31,199 --> 01:54:32,880
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to remember if we went here, because

1903
01:54:32,880 --> 01:54:36,880
it looks kind of familiar, but like there's one million churches.

1904
01:54:37,800 --> 01:54:38,800
Speaker 4: Would you go last year?

1905
01:54:39,279 --> 01:54:39,479
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1906
01:54:40,119 --> 01:54:41,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wasn't a last year too.

1907
01:54:43,960 --> 01:54:50,439
Speaker 1: You were you on our coverage? No, No, I wasn't, okay, gotcha?

1908
01:54:50,479 --> 01:54:53,439
All right? Well, thanks man, I appreciate your comments. I

1909
01:54:53,600 --> 01:54:55,159
just can't remember if we went to this place or not.

1910
01:54:55,279 --> 01:55:00,720
We went to so many places. How Sonny? What something?

1911
01:55:00,720 --> 01:55:00,840
Speaker 2: Man?

1912
01:55:01,840 --> 01:55:02,279
Speaker 1: Try again?

1913
01:55:05,199 --> 01:55:06,199
Speaker 31: Hey, Jake, you hear me better?

1914
01:55:06,279 --> 01:55:06,399
Speaker 10: Now?

1915
01:55:07,560 --> 01:55:07,800
Speaker 2: All right?

1916
01:55:07,880 --> 01:55:08,079
Speaker 10: Cool?

1917
01:55:08,760 --> 01:55:11,000
Speaker 31: Yeah, it's a little bit off topic, but since I'm

1918
01:55:11,039 --> 01:55:12,560
like the last one, I thought it would be cool.

1919
01:55:13,840 --> 01:55:15,079
Speaker 2: Did you take a question?

1920
01:55:15,520 --> 01:55:17,880
Speaker 31: It's actually like kind of two questions, like kind of

1921
01:55:17,920 --> 01:55:18,640
about feminism.

1922
01:55:18,720 --> 01:55:19,560
Speaker 1: Is that fine? Yeah?

1923
01:55:20,239 --> 01:55:20,520
Speaker 2: All right?

1924
01:55:20,560 --> 01:55:20,760
Speaker 10: Cool.

1925
01:55:21,640 --> 01:55:23,399
Speaker 2: I wanted to see if you if.

1926
01:55:23,279 --> 01:55:28,039
Speaker 31: You saw what Andrew the whole Andrew and you know,

1927
01:55:28,119 --> 01:55:30,319
Tommy learning thing on Perris Morgan.

1928
01:55:31,119 --> 01:55:33,159
Speaker 1: I'm not seen that yet, but I did watch all

1929
01:55:33,199 --> 01:55:37,000
of the Jake Rattlesnake Jim Bob debate last night, gotcha?

1930
01:55:37,199 --> 01:55:37,359
Speaker 8: I did.

1931
01:55:37,479 --> 01:55:38,920
Speaker 31: Well, see it's the other way around for me. I

1932
01:55:38,960 --> 01:55:40,760
didn't get to watch that yet, but I'm gonna watch.

1933
01:55:41,640 --> 01:55:43,399
Speaker 1: It's the dullest I've ever seen in my life.

1934
01:55:43,840 --> 01:55:47,039
Speaker 2: God, I know, uh that not so aarondyke chick was

1935
01:55:47,119 --> 01:55:47,319
up there.

1936
01:55:47,600 --> 01:55:50,640
Speaker 31: She's she's one of the most pretentious, annoying motherfuckers on

1937
01:55:50,720 --> 01:55:51,159
the internet.

1938
01:55:51,239 --> 01:55:53,920
Speaker 1: Man, So well, the the guy, the vet guy is

1939
01:55:54,039 --> 01:55:54,920
just as bad as hers.

1940
01:55:55,000 --> 01:55:57,319
Speaker 31: So yeah, from from what I saw in the comments,

1941
01:55:57,359 --> 01:56:00,159
he's like a like was he just simping and saying.

1942
01:56:00,119 --> 01:56:02,560
Speaker 1: Like what was he doing? Well, he was a perfect

1943
01:56:02,600 --> 01:56:04,399
feminist because he let her talk most of the time.

1944
01:56:04,520 --> 01:56:07,199
Speaker 31: So yeah, yeah, then that checks out. She and she

1945
01:56:07,279 --> 01:56:09,920
does like the talk, so that that definitely checks out.

1946
01:56:09,960 --> 01:56:13,520
But the whole Andrew thing was it boiled down to

1947
01:56:13,640 --> 01:56:14,119
one question.

1948
01:56:14,239 --> 01:56:17,159
Speaker 2: He literally just because obviously, you know, she started off.

1949
01:56:17,119 --> 01:56:20,279
Speaker 31: Saying how men, how men today? Or this or that

1950
01:56:20,479 --> 01:56:23,520
we femin and blah blah blah, and his rebuttal was

1951
01:56:23,800 --> 01:56:26,319
was one simple question, and she spurreed, she spurred out,

1952
01:56:26,359 --> 01:56:29,880
and a pissed off Peers didn't allow Andrew to press

1953
01:56:29,920 --> 01:56:30,159
it on it.

1954
01:56:30,239 --> 01:56:32,520
Speaker 4: He literally just asked, through, what are women's duties?

1955
01:56:33,199 --> 01:56:36,359
Speaker 2: Two men? And obviously and obviously the application not.

1956
01:56:36,520 --> 01:56:39,560
Speaker 31: Just not just men, but to society at large, and

1957
01:56:40,279 --> 01:56:43,600
her her immediate response was and then well, when he

1958
01:56:43,720 --> 01:56:46,840
asked her specifically, the first thing she said was I'm

1959
01:56:46,880 --> 01:56:49,840
a successfully independent woman. And then she she said that

1960
01:56:50,119 --> 01:56:53,800
her husband's a fucking baseball manager or some it's just

1961
01:56:53,880 --> 01:56:58,199
some some brain dead it's hard at like covert feminist takes.

1962
01:56:58,720 --> 01:57:00,760
Speaker 1: Let me pull it up. We'll say, hello, how long

1963
01:57:00,840 --> 01:57:01,159
is yeah?

1964
01:57:01,640 --> 01:57:02,600
Speaker 2: As short as like?

1965
01:57:03,199 --> 01:57:05,199
Speaker 31: If you just find the clip where it's him asking

1966
01:57:05,319 --> 01:57:08,000
her and then her giving her immediate response, it should

1967
01:57:08,039 --> 01:57:10,720
be less than a minute and a half, so you

1968
01:57:10,800 --> 01:57:12,079
will you'll probably be able to.

1969
01:57:12,039 --> 01:57:12,920
Speaker 2: Pull it up real quickly.

1970
01:57:16,399 --> 01:57:18,479
Speaker 1: All right, yeah, I'm looking here. Let's see. Appreciate that

1971
01:57:21,800 --> 01:57:27,680
I don't want a thirty minute explanation of it. Let's

1972
01:57:27,680 --> 01:57:30,640
see if this is it. Everyone knows you need a

1973
01:57:30,720 --> 01:57:33,119
lawyer after a car accident injury. But what if I

1974
01:57:33,279 --> 01:57:34,640
told you there's a better way.

1975
01:57:34,840 --> 01:57:37,159
Speaker 10: One look at.

1976
01:57:37,640 --> 01:57:41,920
Speaker 6: The conservative check We all she is in some closet.

1977
01:57:42,640 --> 01:57:44,680
Speaker 1: I don't want his commentary. I just want the clip.

1978
01:57:45,520 --> 01:57:45,840
Speaker 2: I don't know.

1979
01:57:45,880 --> 01:57:48,239
Speaker 1: Maybe we'll try to find it tomorrow. Some my mind

1980
01:57:48,279 --> 01:57:53,640
as much. JB three two dollars. Have you been to Greece? No,

1981
01:57:53,880 --> 01:57:58,640
I've only been to Italy, Rome, a lot of places

1982
01:57:58,680 --> 01:58:09,439
in Italy and London. Actually was gonna go degrees and

1983
01:58:09,560 --> 01:58:17,479
then koof happened, so that never happened. Snapping like UFA

1984
01:58:17,720 --> 01:58:24,760
boy two one who is a genius, best thinker in Orthodoxy.

1985
01:58:27,399 --> 01:58:29,399
I mean we've got quite a few, you know, really

1986
01:58:29,399 --> 01:58:35,520
accomplished scholars, doctor Branson, doctor Bradshaw, Uh, doctor Tikon Pino.

1987
01:58:38,279 --> 01:58:43,560
I'm sure there's many more, doctor Vinnie Ahman Larshay. I

1988
01:58:43,600 --> 01:58:50,560
mean there's there's a bunch ed faith before fortune five dollars.

1989
01:58:50,640 --> 01:58:52,319
I love what you do, brother, pull me out of

1990
01:58:52,359 --> 01:58:55,119
the mid with madness. I hope you're willing to form

1991
01:58:55,159 --> 01:58:58,840
an opinion on the religious freedom socck I brought up. Uh,

1992
01:59:01,039 --> 01:59:03,479
you mean the Church, you're the founding Fathers. I mean,

1993
01:59:03,560 --> 01:59:06,039
I just I don't. I mean, I don't know what

1994
01:59:06,119 --> 01:59:10,560
to say, Like, I don't know if there is a

1995
01:59:10,680 --> 01:59:14,119
real consistent position. Again, I've said many times I think

1996
01:59:14,159 --> 01:59:22,159
that the Founding Fathers are a mix of Enlightenment, Deism, Masonry, Episcopalianism, Catholicism.

1997
01:59:22,279 --> 01:59:25,159
Even with the Carrol family, I mean there's a lot

1998
01:59:25,199 --> 01:59:34,159
of things going in Baptists, so it's somewhat Christian. But anyway,

1999
01:59:34,560 --> 01:59:38,199
that's about it. Everybody have a good night, and I

2000
01:59:38,239 --> 01:59:40,359
got to work on the new Sam Heights, So look

2001
01:59:40,399 --> 01:59:45,680
forward to uh Sam Hides episode five and six. That's

2002
01:59:45,720 --> 01:59:50,000
gonna be fun, or wait, episode four and five, forget

2003
01:59:50,039 --> 01:59:52,439
which one we're on. Really relentless twenty bucks