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Speaker 4: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 4: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 4: written about him, Geesy Bundy Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every week,
Speaker 4: another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous
Speaker 4: killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 4: journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 5: Good evening. Seattle's Jungle Killer takes you inside a world
Speaker 5: where depravity and evil are met by some of the
Speaker 5: best homicide detectives in this Seattle Police department. One of them,
Speaker 5: author and retired detective Mike Sizenski, was one of the
Speaker 5: guys whose mission it was to hunt the men who
Speaker 5: hunt women. In this real life murder investigation, you discover
Speaker 5: how Detective Sizenski and his partners pursued a serial killer's
Speaker 5: trail and how technique, persistence, and luck prompted the killer
Speaker 5: to confess the truth. The book that we're featuring this
Speaker 5: evening is Seattle's Jungle Killer, a detective's account of the
Speaker 5: first serial killer convicted in Seattle. With my special guests,
Speaker 5: journalist and author Mike Sinzenski. Welcome to the program, and
Speaker 5: thank you very much for this interview. Michael Sizensky, all.
Speaker 3: Right, thank you very much for having me. Dan, I
Speaker 3: really appreciate it, and he did a pretty good pronouncing
Speaker 3: my last name Sazansky.
Speaker 5: Thank you very much, Thank you very much. I'm notorious
Speaker 5: for mangling names, so thank you very much for helping
Speaker 5: me with that. Let's start off first off, tell us
Speaker 5: about your background as a Seattle police officer, a police
Speaker 5: officer in general, and how many years you were in
Speaker 5: homicide as a homicide detective.
Speaker 3: Well, I started. I started in the police department in
Speaker 3: a police apartment in nineteen eighty. It seemed like yesterday,
Speaker 3: but I guess it's quite a way great yesterday in
Speaker 3: South Chicago, Illinois, a police department called carimat City, Illinois,
Speaker 3: which bordered Chicago. That I was born and raised in Chicago,
Speaker 3: then moved to cal City and I became a policeman
Speaker 3: there in nineteen eighty. I worked for about two years
Speaker 3: and it ends my pants and wanted to move around.
Speaker 3: So then I moved over to Wyoming, and which is
Speaker 3: kind of shocking for a Chicago boy to go to Wyoming.
Speaker 3: And I worked there in Casper for about a year
Speaker 3: and a half before moving on to Seattle, and I
Speaker 3: got I was hired by started the police Academy in
Speaker 3: Seattle on my birthday, October third. But I as October third,
Speaker 3: nineteen eighty three when I started and I worked. I
Speaker 3: worked patrol for a couple of years. Then I was
Speaker 3: recruited to work undercovering narcotics during the drug wars in
Speaker 3: nineteen nineteen mid eighties, and then I went into through
Speaker 3: robbery unit in nineteen ninety I believe, and I worked
Speaker 3: at robberies and I rotated along with a homicide squad,
Speaker 3: and then then I was recruited and I was smaller
Speaker 3: to homicide detective in ninety four, and there I stayed
Speaker 3: for I stayed for ten years working regular homicides, and
Speaker 3: then I think was around two thousand and four, two
Speaker 3: thousand and five, somewhere around there, I was asked if
Speaker 3: I wanted to go to cold case, and that's where
Speaker 3: I did. I went to Cold Case. That I stayed
Speaker 3: there for I think twelve years. So I'd never planned
Speaker 3: on spending twenty two years working homicide cases in cold cases,
Speaker 3: but that's where I ended up going, and it was
Speaker 3: very rewarding, but I was also I was ready to
Speaker 3: leave when I left a couple of years ago.
Speaker 5: Right, you take us right to a place called in
Speaker 5: Seattle called the Jungle in Seattle's downtown Core tell us
Speaker 5: why it's called the jungle, and before we talk about
Speaker 5: the first victim of found in the Jungle, Denise Harris.
Speaker 3: The jungle is an area right below east of the
Speaker 3: Old Veterans' Hospital and right next to downtown, right next
Speaker 3: to the I five freeway which runs north and south
Speaker 3: and an I ninety which runs east and west. And
Speaker 3: that's what it's bordered by. And it's probably, I'm not
Speaker 3: quite sure how big. I'd say, you know, a couple
Speaker 3: of hundred acres and maybe a little bit more than
Speaker 3: that completely done a deep grade hillside on a lot
Speaker 3: of foliage and a lot of trees. Uh. Mostly people
Speaker 3: are there are transience and we call them transients, and
Speaker 3: people who have menial issues we call them two twenties.
Speaker 3: That's the signal for some of them who has mental issues.
Speaker 3: And one of the reasons why these people are up
Speaker 3: there on these transients that have some mental problems are
Speaker 3: is they cannot function in hanging around with the regular
Speaker 3: transience downtown. They just don't have the you know, the
Speaker 3: mental capacity to deal with these people. And they didn't.
Speaker 3: I'm killing somebody who don't kill themselves, so they want
Speaker 3: to be by themselves and as they go to these camps.
Speaker 3: Well some of these camps though, there are some other
Speaker 3: people go there and they set up bregor just some
Speaker 3: are really really nice, you know, tents and campsites. Some
Speaker 3: of them are just horrid. Well, we'll talk about what
Speaker 3: they used to be like. And they go out there
Speaker 3: and that's what they hang They they do their drinking
Speaker 3: there and they're socializing and they'll run places, get food,
Speaker 3: come back and that's where they want to stay. And
Speaker 3: it's like it's just in a different world. But one
Speaker 3: thing I really know when I no time I'd ever
Speaker 3: go up there was when I had a dead body
Speaker 3: shooting or something. But loud. It was so loud from
Speaker 3: the traffic, the traffic noise, you know, because you're surrounded
Speaker 3: by the freeways there, and even though you're in this
Speaker 3: wooded area, uh, it's you know, it's it's quite noisy,
Speaker 3: and it is a very very spooky place to be.
Speaker 5: Let's talk about the first victim, and you talk about
Speaker 5: this Denise Harris hanging around a bar called the Turf Bar,
Speaker 5: a restaurant and bar in the Pike Place market section
Speaker 5: of downtown Seattle. And from the bar ten here there
Speaker 5: was a description of what went on and who spotted
Speaker 5: Denise and her behavior. So tell us a little bit
Speaker 5: about what this bartender says and observes about Denise Harris
Speaker 5: this night in the turf Bar.
Speaker 3: Well, Denise was. Denise was a regular and a few
Speaker 3: of the bars there, and she come in by herself.
Speaker 3: And Denise is an attractive woman, African American, long thick hair,
Speaker 3: ponytail back. She was a trained teacher, but because of
Speaker 3: some alcohol and narcotic issues, she can never really hold
Speaker 3: on a job. She was living with a boyfriend on
Speaker 3: and off again. But I mean there she would just
Speaker 3: stay there until she goes out at night, and then
Speaker 3: we're going to come back for a couple of days.
Speaker 3: So Denise goes into the turf Bar, which is no
Speaker 3: longer there anymore, goes in the turf Bar and she
Speaker 3: sits down there and orders a drink and and I
Speaker 3: forgot what kind of cigarettes she smoked, but there like
Speaker 3: some European type cigarettes. And she'd sit there in the
Speaker 3: bartender and say, oh yeah, yes, she was in here
Speaker 3: her usual self. Then she starts getting drunk and starts
Speaker 3: getting nasty with me, and then I ended up cutting
Speaker 3: her off and telling her she's got to get out
Speaker 3: of here, and she she gets up from the she
Speaker 3: gets up from the table from the bar and says
Speaker 3: walking outside, you know, swinging her long ponytail. And before
Speaker 3: she walks out, she yells at the bartender and flips
Speaker 3: them off, and out she goes. So when we're doing
Speaker 3: our canvas thing, that's how I end up running into
Speaker 3: the bartender asking him to you know him no her,
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, And I knew the nise and also talked
Speaker 3: to he said she may have went to this bar
Speaker 3: and this other bar and this other bar. So I
Speaker 3: ended up going to like four or five different bars,
Speaker 3: me and my partner Dick Keg, and we go all
Speaker 3: these bars. Oh yeah, we knew Denise. You know, she
Speaker 3: has a pain. She get drunk, and then she started,
Speaker 3: you know, going out getting hide with some some guys
Speaker 3: and come back and she just get nastier and nasty
Speaker 3: until we had eighty six or out of the place.
Speaker 3: And every place we went to that was about the
Speaker 3: same story. What we was where was God bought her
Speaker 3: and uh and so we're just trying to track crew
Speaker 3: movements now and that's what that's how that's how it started.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you're right about the beginning of this investigation. When
Speaker 5: you get involved with this, you tell us how this
Speaker 5: becomes your assignment and and your partner Dick Gan, as
Speaker 5: you mentioned, So tell us how that comes to you
Speaker 5: that you would are assigned this case.
Speaker 3: Well, you know how we got to sign this case
Speaker 3: is really was you know, it's really defined my career.
Speaker 3: Later on, I was at a symposium talking about UH
Speaker 3: attending to schools, and we were talking about serial murderers
Speaker 3: and and we had different people leave it and rule
Speaker 3: the writer who was there, she was presenting some of
Speaker 3: the cases where I where later on became quite friends
Speaker 3: with that was in a couple of her books. And
Speaker 3: we had other you know, de gators and prosecutors talking
Speaker 3: about serial mod cases. But as a young homicide detective,
Speaker 3: you know, and which I was, you know then in
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety seven, I never thought I would never work
Speaker 3: as serial case. They never gave any thought, None of
Speaker 3: us did, because you know, that's just something that really
Speaker 3: wasn't you know, very rarely did somebody work a cereal
Speaker 3: murder case. So that's that's you know, that's how it starts,
Speaker 3: and that's we got something that came back from doing
Speaker 3: the going to this class, and uh, we have thing
Speaker 3: that's called next up. Who's next up for the next homicide?
Speaker 3: That I mean is my partner Dick gag and I.
Speaker 3: So they'd say, uh, one of the next up guys
Speaker 3: are you and you got a homicide in the wooded
Speaker 3: area in the jungle? He said, Oh, you gotta be
Speaker 3: kidding in the jungle. Yeah, the jungle is and it's
Speaker 3: a it's a woman. So it's a little different twist
Speaker 3: on things. Who I say when it's a woman. Uh okay,
Speaker 3: if it's the usual homicide where some guys getting you know,
Speaker 3: some guy's gonna fight, some guy gets stabbed, or uh,
Speaker 3: some guys some gang bangers, you know, shooting at each other.
Speaker 3: You know that's usually the norm. But uh okay, So uh,
Speaker 3: Dick and I pack up our stuff and you know,
Speaker 3: Dick's you know, complained to me and uh and I'm
Speaker 3: laughing now because we're supposed to go to I think
Speaker 3: a retiring part of that night for mother homicide effective.
Speaker 3: There's a beautiful, beautiful Stumber Day was Stumber twelfth, nineteen
Speaker 3: ninety seven years ago. And uh so we got out
Speaker 3: to the jungle and uh, we go out there and
Speaker 3: there's uh, the state police are around there, and I
Speaker 3: talked to this trooper and the troopers says, yeah, I
Speaker 3: was sitting over here or on the side of the
Speaker 3: road writing up some reports or some citations, and two
Speaker 3: trains came and they said, hey, there's a body up
Speaker 3: over here, come with us and we'll take you to it. Well,
Speaker 3: he's smart enough, he's not going to go up into
Speaker 3: the jungle with these two transients. So he calls system
Speaker 3: back up and he goes up there with five other
Speaker 3: troopers and they're marching on up there, and uh then
Speaker 3: all of a sudden, there they get there, they see
Speaker 3: the victim, loves is later identified as Denise Hers, laying down.
Speaker 3: She's on the ground and fully clothed. Her pants are a
Speaker 3: little bit dirty, she's wearing gym shoes, and she's got
Speaker 3: a gag in her mouth, and you know, there's uh,
Speaker 3: look at surely around her neck muscle and and her
Speaker 3: and her hands are tied. And so I'm looking down
Speaker 3: and I'm there looking at the body down and I'm
Speaker 3: looking and saying, well, what's you Something just really really
Speaker 3: looked out of place, and it's and it was the
Speaker 3: bindings on her hand and whether from her these shoelaces
Speaker 3: and I could look down and I can see that,
Speaker 3: you know, her shoes are on, but there's no lacism
Speaker 3: and the hands Like when I talk about this, you know,
Speaker 3: if you're going to tie somebody up, you're going to
Speaker 3: tie their hands together, right, the wrists together in front
Speaker 3: of them or the back of them. The restrict your
Speaker 3: moment movement. It's like when they put handcuffs on somebody
Speaker 3: getting cupped up, get them behind your back. Is you
Speaker 3: know you want them to bring on her hands? These
Speaker 3: these laces are they're tight on the wrist, but her
Speaker 3: hands are like about you know, so what's what's the
Speaker 3: use of that? You know, I thought it was kind
Speaker 3: of or unless you do maybe it's it's easier to
Speaker 3: carry somebody. So she has no identification. There's no purse
Speaker 3: there or wallets on the ground, and there's betefactor besides
Speaker 3: those other two transients. It's the only one the people
Speaker 3: we see in there. So we take care of business
Speaker 3: and we you know, we probably the scene and we
Speaker 3: don't process the scene when you have a another team
Speaker 3: processing scene. And I know she's right right next to
Speaker 3: this one. Little homeless camp. And one of the things
Speaker 3: I noticed they have, you know, you can tell people
Speaker 3: are sitting would be sitting around drinking and throwing the
Speaker 3: beers into a pile. I mean, I don't know how
Speaker 3: many people are doing it, but a huge pile. But
Speaker 3: on one of the branches there's an impaled beer camp.
Speaker 3: But that's kind of weird, you know, just a little
Speaker 3: branch sign. Somebody stuck it on there, and that will
Speaker 3: come into play later down in the story. So when
Speaker 3: I totally at tectus scenes, like I said, take a
Speaker 3: picture of that, she only took pictures of everything. Were
Speaker 3: going to take a picture of a can of bears
Speaker 3: then just just you know, humor me, and I know,
Speaker 3: if forget doing it, and they're kind of you know,
Speaker 3: they take it and take a picture of the can.
Speaker 3: I says, it's kind of identifiable. And then off we
Speaker 3: go to try to identify the victim. And and then
Speaker 3: later on we do get a a name and an
Speaker 3: address for and here, and the name was Denise Harris.
Speaker 3: And so where we go We find her address, and
Speaker 3: we go we go to meet the gag and go
Speaker 3: to her address, knock on the door, and a gentleman
Speaker 3: opens the door and you know, what can we do
Speaker 3: for you? He goes, this is about Denise, right, He
Speaker 3: said yes, sir, and she did and my partner looked
Speaker 3: at he said yes. Yes. He goes, come on in,
Speaker 3: and then he goes on to tell the story. He
Speaker 3: goes on and tells the story about her and about
Speaker 3: how she'd be you know, she'd be going off and
Speaker 3: she'd have a drinking prom and narcotics and sweeping around
Speaker 3: and she gave him disease one time. So so he
Speaker 3: told us and it was, it was, it was. It
Speaker 3: was very you know, we found out where he was
Speaker 3: at lately and gave us a picture of her, and
Speaker 3: it was just very very very Uh, it was very sad.
Speaker 3: We walked out of the place. We gave our cards.
Speaker 3: We walk in Dick and I and Dick is, no,
Speaker 3: what do you think? I said, that's not the guys,
Speaker 3: And they say yeah, he said, sap. You know, here
Speaker 3: he stays with this woman and he knows she's out
Speaker 3: running around and you know, he's been drunk and sleeping
Speaker 3: around and he's still nobody's in love with her. You know,
Speaker 3: they they met. I think I think they met in
Speaker 3: the Las Vegas or something. So that's that's that was.
Speaker 3: So now we just have now we got we got
Speaker 3: her name. We got to try and identify, uh who
Speaker 3: she was with. That's when we went to all the
Speaker 3: bars that she would hang out at and and she
Speaker 3: was mostly a loner, no girlfriends or nothing like that,
Speaker 3: but just going out there drinking and drinking. And they
Speaker 3: had a substance abuse from m and which many of
Speaker 3: the victims when you have cases like this, are you
Speaker 3: having some kind of drug problem. So we worked the
Speaker 3: case for months, you know, you know, chasing down leads
Speaker 3: maybe it's this guy, maybe it's that guy, and not
Speaker 3: getting anywhere. And in the meantime we're still now we're
Speaker 3: you know, Thomas said, you know, it sce Tember, and
Speaker 3: so other cases are coming up and stuff. We got
Speaker 3: to go work other cases, work at the crime scenes.
Speaker 3: And but when in a case like this, you know
Speaker 3: you're really working because it was so unique, I mean
Speaker 3: with the having somebody tied up and bound and stuff
Speaker 3: like that. And uh, that's what we did. And so
Speaker 3: we just kept looking the case and then another another
Speaker 3: victim uh came into play. Her name was you know, Antimate,
Speaker 3: Antimate Antonate Jones. They called her, they called her Tony
Speaker 3: and once again, uh, she's the other girl. She was
Speaker 3: half white, half African American and uh street life, prostitution,
Speaker 3: drug mostly drug abuse and uh kind of a petite,
Speaker 3: petite thing. And she'd hang on the Pioneer Square area,
Speaker 3: which is right downtown. But we find her body. A
Speaker 3: couple of transients are walking and clicking, clicking like boxes.
Speaker 3: Uh the cardboard, I mean, I pulls over this cardboard
Speaker 3: and there's a decomposed body and uh later identified as
Speaker 3: antimate Intimate Jones. Well it's hurt, but you know, her
Speaker 3: skeleton remains. And they got her up on an Autosi
Speaker 3: table and taking picture and you can see she has
Speaker 3: a ligature around her throat and a gag in her
Speaker 3: mouth and it's skeletonized now. And so there's a skull
Speaker 3: and it's very creepy looking picture, you know, because there's
Speaker 3: a skull with the mouth why gaping open and with
Speaker 3: the I think it was that question. I think is
Speaker 3: either braziers or pantic was used as a gag in
Speaker 3: her mouth, and then her hands are bound also. It
Speaker 3: was you know, it was, it was, it was. And
Speaker 3: we look at those you know later on it wasn't
Speaker 3: my case. It was detectives quite Siger's case. And then
Speaker 3: it comes up and she releases on her hands also.
Speaker 3: So we're working, we're working the we're working the case.
Speaker 3: Well actually it wasn't quite Sagres case of some other
Speaker 3: detectives case. And they're working the case and until until
Speaker 3: later on they says, now this is like the same killer.
Speaker 3: We both that they proved both of the cases, and
Speaker 3: they decided to the powers, they decided to give us
Speaker 3: the cases to work both of them in which we do.
Speaker 3: So we started working the case and chasing down LAIDs,
Speaker 3: interviewing once again, interviewing transients that they have some menial issues,
Speaker 3: you know, and nobody want to be there, but you
Speaker 3: know they are cooperating semi and so there we just
Speaker 3: we just go on and keep working and I'm working
Speaker 3: on working all the cases. And there was a uh
Speaker 3: it was it was now now we're getting into into
Speaker 3: the winter. We're getting into winter. And get a get
Speaker 3: a phone call. I get a phone call collect. You know,
Speaker 3: you got a collect call from the King County jail. Fall,
Speaker 3: said Dwayne Harris. Do you accept the drugger is now
Speaker 3: except you know, let's kick I get those all the time,
Speaker 3: you know, all the dectives that guys calling up they
Speaker 3: want to get out of the other one, help us
Speaker 3: find the bad guy, or you know whatever. And uh,
Speaker 3: this guy say's talking to me about the case, and
Speaker 3: you see, I'll help you with that case. You know,
Speaker 3: you got to come get me out of jail. You know,
Speaker 3: I just want that's what I want. I want to
Speaker 3: be out of here. Yeah, right, yeah, coming back in
Speaker 3: the aston. Well he does call back. In fact, I
Speaker 3: come in sometimes and I have four or five messages
Speaker 3: on my phone and these guys. So he goes, I'll
Speaker 3: tell you something about this case. I just want to
Speaker 3: was you know I was there, man, I know the
Speaker 3: guy who probably did this because I was there. He goes,
Speaker 3: I'll tell you something. You don't know. He never found
Speaker 3: her purse, did you. And I'm thinking, man, how do
Speaker 3: you know that? You know, because we didn't find her purse.
Speaker 3: So I end up later on I go and I
Speaker 3: get him out of get him out of jail, and
Speaker 3: you bring him out of jail, and uh, he take
Speaker 3: us up to the crime scene. And he's a big guy.
Speaker 3: He's he's he's a really really a big guy now,
Speaker 3: Dwayne Harris is his name and no relation to the
Speaker 3: niece herst And he's got a tattoo on his arm
Speaker 3: Chili Willy and they call me Chili Willie. And he's
Speaker 3: got a couple of bum tattoo tears down his cheek,
Speaker 3: which some gangs say that's like for the movie which
Speaker 3: kind of shooting game that movie something, but it changes. So, uh,
Speaker 3: we got him, you know, said he's be strapping dude.
Speaker 3: He's I'm sick here. He's probably least six to one,
Speaker 3: you know, I mean, uh, and you could tell he's
Speaker 3: kind of a tough dude. Uh. So we got a
Speaker 3: wet ankle chains on him and we also have a
Speaker 3: big belt around his waist with handcuffed to his to
Speaker 3: his side and uh, he says, yeah, this is where
Speaker 3: he brings up there and he's pretty close to where
Speaker 3: he puts these hares his body hip in the jungle. Yeah.
Speaker 3: But he says in factor her head was this way
Speaker 3: and her feet were that way. He said, okay, that's
Speaker 3: talking and uh Stone walking around here. I said, once again,
Speaker 3: it's the the ground changes so much because the foilage
Speaker 3: and stuff. This the winner and he's walking in there,
Speaker 3: and he says, matter of fact, he's turning on, he's
Speaker 3: looking and he goes, there's a tree over here, man.
Speaker 3: Because I stood up and I hit my hand on
Speaker 3: this tree, bnch and news like a beer can and
Speaker 3: paled on it. Now hit my forehead on it, cut
Speaker 3: in my head. I said, get you know, And so
Speaker 3: right there, I thought, Now this dude was up here, man,
Speaker 3: h this guy, this guy was up there. Now whether
Speaker 3: he's whether he's a killer, or he's where he was
Speaker 3: getting this information from. Because all of these guys will
Speaker 3: you know, they they'll say they were there just to
Speaker 3: get it, you know, to get out of jail or something.
Speaker 3: So what what we went back.
Speaker 5: Mike? What did he say though, when when he initially called,
Speaker 5: he didn't he didn't admit that he was involved. He
Speaker 5: had said that there was someone else that he knew.
Speaker 5: So when you go to this, when you take him
Speaker 5: out of the out of jail, you and Dick, or
Speaker 5: when you went with Cloyd to the jungle, he still
Speaker 5: stuck with that story that he wasn't accompliced. It just
Speaker 5: happened to know all this information, and you guys played
Speaker 5: along with it, didn't you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, he's saying, uh, yeah, I was with this guy,
Speaker 3: Mike Mark or Mike Smith. Wait he said the guy's name.
Speaker 3: He gave the script the guy, and it's funny. The
Speaker 3: description was almost of him, almost of uh, you know,
Speaker 3: I was like, okay, so well, once again, I say,
Speaker 3: we don't we don't have any leads really to speak up.
Speaker 3: And uh, when he says the thing about the beer can, Okay,
Speaker 3: oh he was up here for he knows that, but
Speaker 3: so what so he's transient drug using guy. He try
Speaker 3: of knows that. But when he says that about her,
Speaker 3: you know where she was tied up and and he
Speaker 3: made a face and he says, yeah, she had something
Speaker 3: in her mouth and he he opens up his mouth,
Speaker 3: you know, showing like the gag that he had Denise
Speaker 3: head in her mouth, sweet thing. And you know this
Speaker 3: this cat, you know, this cat was up there. You know,
Speaker 3: so that was you know. So so now now I'm
Speaker 3: getting phone calls from this guy. Cluck. You know, you're
Speaker 3: a cluck. Call again Connors. You know, I'm here and
Speaker 3: he's trying he's gonna help us out. You know, he's
Speaker 3: gonna tell us where this that that trying to end
Speaker 3: up trying to find out where this alleged suspect at
Speaker 3: and I can tell you know, he he give us
Speaker 3: a little bit of truth in a couple of lies also,
Speaker 3: and so then so then he, uh, he takes us.
Speaker 3: Then he says, and I'll tell you somebody, you never
Speaker 3: found the killer about that girl? H up up in
Speaker 3: the woods that with the other places are? Did you
Speaker 3: man that that body? You know, Anthony Jone He called
Speaker 3: her Tony and he said now, and he goes, I'll
Speaker 3: take you up there. So we went up. We went
Speaker 3: up there and uh he said, yeah, he was over here.
Speaker 3: He was, you know, this is the way her body
Speaker 3: was and stuff. Okay, and uh he's he's pretty pretty
Speaker 3: close all about that, you know, about where they were,
Speaker 3: what happened. So we go out and pick this guy
Speaker 3: up in jail. And he was in the in the
Speaker 3: Kent jail, which is the south of the city here.
Speaker 3: It's in the in the count but it was south city.
Speaker 3: So it's kind of pain to drive all there, pick
Speaker 3: them up every day every morning and go drive around,
Speaker 3: you know, looking for people that may know these this.
Speaker 3: They're looking for this Smith guy, and he's providing us
Speaker 3: information the whole time, and I'm like, okay, okay, but
Speaker 3: once again it's half that's half the stuff is true.
Speaker 3: Half the stuff is uh you know, blogoney, you know
Speaker 3: we're not you know, we're not buying it, and we're
Speaker 3: not trusted with him. We're watching him very clol see
Speaker 3: think that he's gonna try to uh try to escape,
Speaker 3: you know, and h but it goes on and on.
Speaker 3: So finally, uh, finally we're gonna take him. We're gonna
Speaker 3: go find some other he's gonna take us where some
Speaker 3: other bodies. And I got him sitting up in my
Speaker 3: office and with a cup of coffee where he'd call
Speaker 3: it a cappuccino. I give you the cappuccinos, leave man, Okay,
Speaker 3: now we'll get your coupe you chili. And he says,
Speaker 3: you know, also a let me back up, I said,
Speaker 3: and he says, uh, let me take it. Let me
Speaker 3: take you where you never recovered the purse. Did you
Speaker 3: take you where he threw the purse? And uh so
Speaker 3: we went to the today area. He says he threw
Speaker 3: it down and threw it down some sewer or something
Speaker 3: like that. I had this city come and pump out
Speaker 3: the sewer and stuff and I never did. I never
Speaker 3: did recover that the purse. So finally, you know, if
Speaker 3: they're going out with this guy for it must have
Speaker 3: been like three weeks. I come back to the room
Speaker 3: one time and a couple of guys, my partner, I'm saying, now,
Speaker 3: this is this is gonna be us. You know, I
Speaker 3: don't trust this guy. He's even trying to do something.
Speaker 3: You know, we're trying to placate him. And yeah, I said, yeah,
Speaker 3: but what else? What else are we gonna do? So
Speaker 3: all of a sudden, I come back to the room
Speaker 3: and he's let's take us out. We're looking, we're gonna
Speaker 3: go back at the jungle, And then come back in
Speaker 3: the room where he's sitting there. We getting we'll give
Speaker 3: him a magazine and kept a couple of smokes in
Speaker 3: this cappuccino, and he says me, he is Mikey, Mike.
Speaker 3: He's as we used to call me, Mikey Mike. He goes,
Speaker 3: I'm tired. I'm gonna tired. I'm gonna tell you the truth.
Speaker 3: I killed those two. I killed those two, and I
Speaker 3: killed another bitch too up there, and I said, wether.
Speaker 3: He goes to Olivia smith Man and I said okay,
Speaker 3: And so everyone said said tight a man, and I
Speaker 3: went back outside, got a right sporn. Told my partner
Speaker 3: Dick Gagen, who was getting his boots and stuff getting
Speaker 3: ready to go up there, go up there looking for
Speaker 3: more more boys. I said, hey, he just he just
Speaker 3: confessed that he did the murders and Olivia Smith. I
Speaker 3: think that's I said, I think that's Steiger's case. Cloyd
Speaker 3: sed I said, you better get in a call coming here.
Speaker 3: I mess. I talked to him and from Gagnon looking
Speaker 3: at me, and he says that you you shitting me.
Speaker 3: I said, truth, buddy, Okay, So off I go. I
Speaker 3: go back in there, and I've taken a confession from him,
Speaker 3: and shortly after that, my other partner came in. Steiger
Speaker 3: came in. He did confession on the Olivia Smith case.
Speaker 3: Now Olivia Smith, she was a nobody is sawn on
Speaker 3: January tenth, nineteen ninety eight, in a stairwell at the
Speaker 3: bottom of a stairwell, and she had been throat had
Speaker 3: been cut, and she'd been stubbed numerous times in the
Speaker 3: chest and also in the buttocks, superficial wounds in the buttox.
Speaker 3: I forgot the tune when they stabbed you or sometimes
Speaker 3: you do. It's like they're playing, you know, they just experiment.
Speaker 3: They starts stabbing and stabbing victims in them in the
Speaker 3: Botox area. But she had her throat cut, I mean
Speaker 3: it was in her hand was cut and there was
Speaker 3: blood over looking at the crime scene photos because I
Speaker 3: didn't go to that scene, but I could see that,
Speaker 3: you know, she was you know, one of her shoes
Speaker 3: was off of what you know, when she's laying there
Speaker 3: in a crumpled position. But looking at the photographs when
Speaker 3: close you could see really there was a lot. But
Speaker 3: once again there was a lot of blood right, and
Speaker 3: there was a lot of blood. Has happened, food cut,
Speaker 3: her shoelaces were half out of one shoe. And but
Speaker 3: I can't really put that together with anything with you know,
Speaker 3: with the other cases where victim was tied up with
Speaker 3: the shoelaces. And but later, but but Chili told us
Speaker 3: later on he goes, he told us what happened. He said,
Speaker 3: I was smoking. I was smoking some crack with her,
Speaker 3: and I was going to kill her the whole time.
Speaker 3: And I got behind her and I started choker and
Speaker 3: all of a sudden, she pulled the knife out and
Speaker 3: and she cut my hand. He shows his wound on
Speaker 3: his hand and he has a scar on his hand.
Speaker 3: And so I was getting able to get it back,
Speaker 3: and I just started stabbing her in her throat and
Speaker 3: I cut her throat and then I stabbed her in
Speaker 3: the wait and say buttocks in the ass. And then
Speaker 3: and I was taking her shoes off. But I was
Speaker 3: losing so much blood. And it was really cold lot
Speaker 3: that day. And he took the stigger to work case together.
Speaker 3: It was like, you know, when he was fun to call,
Speaker 3: it was like, you know, seven degrees outside, and she goes, oh,
Speaker 3: So Julie said, I'm passing up. So I had. I had,
Speaker 3: you know, I had to lead. You know, I didn't
Speaker 3: want to leave, but I had to leave. The reason
Speaker 3: why later on working with serial murder cases that I
Speaker 3: had these guys, you know, it's the killing parties really
Speaker 3: boomba boom. They enjoy that, they get off on that.
Speaker 3: Then they enjoyed being with the body and either tying
Speaker 3: them up or whatever. There's a lot of times you
Speaker 3: find out what it was their signature. Now his, like
Speaker 3: I said, his was tying up the bodies some of them.
Speaker 3: Sometimes it's positioning in the body and uh, the killers
Speaker 3: and shirt things into the victims you know, body, and
Speaker 3: they all have a little you know where they position
Speaker 3: the legs is spread out all there, put them on
Speaker 3: their knees and stuff. They like spending time with them.
Speaker 3: And they'll think about it all the time. Serial murders
Speaker 3: doing the social path, they'll think about it over and
Speaker 3: over and over again. And that's all they do. You know,
Speaker 3: they don't have any They shouldn't look like they have
Speaker 3: emotion there, but they don't have any emotion, you know. Now,
Speaker 3: it's not like you and I don't feel sorry about anything, nothing, nothing.
Speaker 3: All the thing about is killing and I don't care
Speaker 3: who I have. These guys that killed people thirty years ago.
Speaker 3: And that's exactly how they did. The color the color
Speaker 3: the drapes now word they got the you know what
Speaker 3: the person said to them. And that's how and that's
Speaker 3: how Chilli was and that's what he was doing. So
Speaker 3: Chili had a you know, he killed. So he kills
Speaker 3: Olivia Smith.
Speaker 5: Uh.
Speaker 3: He stays through that. Then he has think he's got
Speaker 3: his gash and he crossed his hand. He goes to
Speaker 3: a hospital and Longview, Washington, which is like about one
Speaker 3: hundred miles away from here. But then he has to
Speaker 3: split from there to you know, they give him drugs
Speaker 3: and that, and he thinks, you know, they're gonna call
Speaker 3: the cops on him, so he just leaves from there
Speaker 3: and and that's it. So he's almost all way scott
Speaker 3: free until he gets he does an armed barbbery. He
Speaker 3: gets arrested for that. Then he gets bored inside the
Speaker 3: jail and he calls me and we go from there.
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Speaker 5: Now you have you are questioning this Chili Willie. Now
Speaker 5: now he's admitted to you. He says, listen, I'm tired
Speaker 5: as you mentioned, I'm tired. I've been killing my whole life.
Speaker 5: I want to get this off my chest. I want
Speaker 5: to deal with this. He you did have a rapport
Speaker 5: with him, You've had a relationship with him. He seemed
Speaker 5: to like you trust you. So now with this admission
Speaker 5: of this, how do you go about corroborating this? And
Speaker 5: what's what about the story about Mike Smith? When is
Speaker 5: that whole notion dispelled.
Speaker 3: All the way? He ain's on that for a little
Speaker 3: while and then all of a sudden, I be halfway
Speaker 3: through after after he confessed you've mentioned as kability bs
Speaker 3: and actually I did I did ever report them. I
Speaker 3: think he he's even a much rapport with and and Cloyd.
Speaker 3: He didn't he didn't like he didn't like Cloyd on
Speaker 3: that much. I think part of the reason why is
Speaker 3: we'd be driving, we'd be we'd have a van we
Speaker 3: drive that Cloyd woul drive, ride would drive. And when
Speaker 3: I'm driving the van and we got Chili handcuffed, you know,
Speaker 3: in the back seat, and there's Kloy sitting back there
Speaker 3: with a you know, a little sawd off shotgun, and
Speaker 3: he says, Chili said, man, what would he don do
Speaker 3: with that chot and he goes, I'm gonnay. He goes,
Speaker 3: I'm gonna kill you if you try to run. He goes, man,
Speaker 3: now you wouldn't do that. He goes, oh, yeah, yeah
Speaker 3: I would, Yeah, I would be I would. And then
Speaker 3: we were getting out of the we're getting out of
Speaker 3: the van. We're back in our police station and we're
Speaker 3: in the basem going to the service and Cloyd joking,
Speaker 3: he goes, look out, Mike, I think he's running. I
Speaker 3: think he's running. Be careful, and Chili says, oh, man,
Speaker 3: not that stuff off. Man. Would you come on, come on, man,
Speaker 3: let's get out of here. And it was it was
Speaker 3: a little comic, a little comic relief, you know, I'm thinking, yeah,
Speaker 3: and he got my mind, and we well, yeah, we
Speaker 3: would have had to dump him, if we if we
Speaker 3: had Once again, I kept thinking, and the sergeants kept thinking.
Speaker 3: My sergeant, uh Dave rittand and and Dick. He always thought,
Speaker 3: he goes, this guy's you know, you guys are we're
Speaker 3: taking too much time with this guy because we had
Speaker 3: him like three weeks and and you think, you know,
Speaker 3: some bad is gonna happen. This guy's gonna try to
Speaker 3: get away, or he's gonna get away, or he's gonna
Speaker 3: hurt you guys. You guys end up killing him, and
Speaker 3: we don't need that. And so finally we made decisions,
Speaker 3: all right, because now he's now he's starting to give
Speaker 3: us some false leads. Also said he killed this person,
Speaker 3: he killed that person, and and we know he's a
Speaker 3: bad guy because but some of the things are true
Speaker 3: that you know, he gives us a little bit of
Speaker 3: truth to and then then then he fa them. But
Speaker 3: I had in that same time period, right in fact,
Speaker 3: right befo, he confessed, I had a case where I
Speaker 3: had couple of guys killed in a in a motel
Speaker 3: room and there's a girl, young prostit in there a
Speaker 3: crack horror, they would describe her. And I had to
Speaker 3: go pick her up from her house and stuff, and
Speaker 3: she's gonna be material through a witness. And she said
Speaker 3: about we're talking to her about about the case, about cases,
Speaker 3: about you know, about her and the lifestyle that she
Speaker 3: has and how dangerous it is. She goes, oh, yes,
Speaker 3: she's always scary, you know when you're after huling and
Speaker 3: she goes matter of fact, she goes a matter of fact,
Speaker 3: this is the first day I had these shoes on.
Speaker 3: She put both her legs out, and then she shows
Speaker 3: me these these shoes that she got, these real high
Speaker 3: like high heel type shoes and stuff. She goes, there's
Speaker 3: this guy man, his name was Chili Williams, and I
Speaker 3: was in the motel with him and this other guy,
Speaker 3: and then all of a sudden, you know, when they
Speaker 3: have sex with me and he you know, strips me
Speaker 3: naked and throws me in the bathtub and he's like
Speaker 3: washing me and stuff. And then and then all of
Speaker 3: a sudden, you know, he beat up the other guy
Speaker 3: and tied him up, and I ran out the door
Speaker 3: and I got away, and I never wanted to be
Speaker 3: around that guy. Still look for him. I still think
Speaker 3: he's gonna kill me. Well then I'm listening to thing
Speaker 3: Chili WILLI and wow, well it's the same guy. That's
Speaker 3: the guy I was interviewing before at the same time.
Speaker 3: So so talking to Chili, I bring hurt him up there.
Speaker 3: He goes, oh, man, that you know that b h
Speaker 3: And then he goes on there he almost explain the
Speaker 3: same thing, tells us the same about about the same story,
Speaker 3: and then how he wanted to how he wanted to
Speaker 3: kill her. And then he kept telling me. See, and
Speaker 3: whenever we would talk to Chili and he'd almost get
Speaker 3: like in a trance like state. You probably know more
Speaker 3: about why these guys did. But he all of a
Speaker 3: sudden his voice would deep and he'd be talking and uh,
Speaker 3: and I mean, we have his hands, you know, in
Speaker 3: a leather belt that I deal with what cuts him.
Speaker 3: And I can see where he's manipulating. He's talking to us,
Speaker 3: and he's there, he's manipulating his hands. I get there
Speaker 3: around somebody's thillt and uh, he says, and I yeah,
Speaker 3: I'd tell him, uh, you know, she'd be begging for
Speaker 3: her life. And I said, now you go tell that
Speaker 3: to God right now, because nothing happened here, You're going
Speaker 3: to be dying, bitch. And the smokes and it just
Speaker 3: just scared it. This girl was. She was scared that
Speaker 3: And and Chili kept telling me, uh, he wanted to
Speaker 3: He kept he'd see her around town oncet while and
Speaker 3: all he wanted to do was get her Alane to
Speaker 3: kill her. And that girl, I mean, by the grace
Speaker 3: of God, she got away. He definitely killed her. He
Speaker 3: wanted to kill her so bad.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you also talk about the interestingly, Uh, he asked
Speaker 5: for his wife and they've only been married, the poor woman,
Speaker 5: they've only been married four months. And he calls her
Speaker 5: to the police station.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 5: Tell us us a little bit about this incredible interaction
Speaker 5: and what he says to her and admits to her,
Speaker 5: and then later that's part of your testimony at trial.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, he comes, he brings her, He brings her
Speaker 3: to find mcconners. We bring her over there, and he
Speaker 3: wants to see her a little bit. And he told her,
Speaker 3: you know, only I'm sorry to doing all this kind
Speaker 3: of stuff and you'd be running, you have this have
Speaker 3: to becoming on you. But it's just what I am.
Speaker 3: You know, I've always been doing this kind of stuff.
Speaker 3: And she's like just this girl, she's just like, you know,
Speaker 3: shake shaking her head, and I mean she's just like
Speaker 3: she's she's a strut. And he tells her that he's
Speaker 3: killed several people and the and that's just that's just
Speaker 3: the way it is, you know. And she tells us
Speaker 3: also that she was in she was in Portland when
Speaker 3: she knows I said his hands bandit bandited, and she
Speaker 3: asked and she asked him well you know what happened,
Speaker 3: what happened in your hand, and she said, uh, I
Speaker 3: killed someone, and she just disregarded and because you know,
Speaker 3: just says, you know, he talks crazy stuff like that
Speaker 3: all the time. Well it wasn't all that crazy. That's
Speaker 3: that's that's actually what he did.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and then so now you have these reports and
Speaker 5: you you have other people that you speak to as
Speaker 5: well that he had spoken to somebody from the jungle
Speaker 5: as well. So now you have this case for the prosecutors.
Speaker 5: What is their their next move with this evidence that
Speaker 5: you've gathered and uh so what does their next move?
Speaker 3: Well, we got the prosecutors. They're involved. We call them
Speaker 3: m out most Dangerous Feminist program. They're they're they're around
Speaker 3: the second they would see some of the interviews that
Speaker 3: we did when we had him in another room, and
Speaker 3: we're keeping them a prize everything we're doing. But they're
Speaker 3: also getting a little antsy also thinking, you know, the
Speaker 3: hope this guy isn't escape, you know, we don't. We
Speaker 3: don't have just guy posted bond for his robbery and
Speaker 3: all a sudden walk it out, then we're never gonna
Speaker 3: see him again. But then again, there's the plan and
Speaker 3: uh so they said, uh. At one point we think
Speaker 3: we think he's gonna, you know, plead out, you know,
Speaker 3: and give him whatever he's gonna get life, but thinking
Speaker 3: he's gonna plete up. But no, he he We finally
Speaker 3: go to finally formally a rash atant for for the
Speaker 3: murder and put him in jail. And the prosecutors and
Speaker 3: we have two of them, you know, we're really really
Speaker 3: good prosecutors. That the head, the head of the MP unit,
Speaker 3: Jeff Baard, you know, very sharp k he's gonna be
Speaker 3: proscuting the case and should the bail bail set really
Speaker 3: high for him? And uh and so then we get it.
Speaker 3: We go to we go to trial and his his
Speaker 3: defense attorney who's really a good guy, white know, the
Speaker 3: guy who he's a good guy. Also we're kind of
Speaker 3: laughing between ourselves, myself and the sky the dagg and
Speaker 3: you know, thinking that what seemed that the defense is
Speaker 3: a little bit afraid of his client, and they were laughing,
Speaker 3: would you be afraid of him? Also because Chilly had
Speaker 3: a couple of outbursts in court and like he did
Speaker 3: before he was arrested for this in his other case
Speaker 3: where he's throwing stuff around, and uh so we had
Speaker 3: to put him if we call it hannibal lector chair.
Speaker 3: Now he's miss misbehaving in front of the judge and
Speaker 3: Marge pact arch pec Man, I think, who is a judge.
Speaker 3: She's now a federal judge and or I think she's
Speaker 3: retired right now. But they had to put him in
Speaker 3: a Hannibal elected chair because he was, you know, throwing stuff,
Speaker 3: and so what is You're in a chair and you're
Speaker 3: strapped in there, and they bring in from the jury
Speaker 3: and sometimes he's good. Sometimes he won't change his clothes,
Speaker 3: and the civilian closed. It's something you don't want to
Speaker 3: bring the guy in there, you know, in his jail outfit.
Speaker 3: And but now he just had all these outbursts all
Speaker 3: the time, and it was very it was very uh
Speaker 3: sometimes it was very comical watching him perform. And then
Speaker 3: again I look over at the jury while he's uh
Speaker 3: when he get when he started talking, and or the
Speaker 3: Medical Examiner's office doctors they're they're talking about the positions
Speaker 3: of the body and the strangulations, and I'm looking at
Speaker 3: all the jurors and you can see even some of
Speaker 3: the men will even some men theyd be. You know,
Speaker 3: their the legs across, their arms across, and their hands
Speaker 3: are up across their throats. You know, because once again
Speaker 3: uh Duane or Chili was very chilling and very very chilling.
Speaker 3: So when he when he finally find the witness stand
Speaker 3: and talked, he's you know, he said, oh yeah, detector
Speaker 3: Sazynski size company outside. You know, he made he made
Speaker 3: that stuff up me there because I killed I killed
Speaker 3: Olivia Smith. I admit I killed her. It's because the
Speaker 3: DNA came back because they were in his blood. But
Speaker 3: the other two I do. I just you know, I
Speaker 3: was just talking bowl and he just you know, let
Speaker 3: me look at the reports and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 3: You know. Of course it was all nonsense, and we
Speaker 3: just found guilty. And I think he was sentenced to
Speaker 3: two hundred and two hundred warm months something like that
Speaker 3: Bridge case something. So obviously it's not the beginning out.
Speaker 3: And then so then I see I see him in
Speaker 3: the you know, they got him in the hannibal lectriture
Speaker 3: and wheeling him out. The guards, you know, and he
Speaker 3: always have a you know a circle of guards around him. Hey, Mike,
Speaker 3: you Mike, you know, why don't you give me a
Speaker 3: call mac Mom, give me come and see me give
Speaker 3: you one of those cappuccinos. Man, I'm sorry I said
Speaker 3: those things about you in there. Okay, Chilie, maybe I
Speaker 3: will so I'm gonna jump you know you probably some
Speaker 3: of the questions for him. But one the day I
Speaker 3: was retiring here in Dinguis in two thoy seventeen, I
Speaker 3: had to go to one of the prisons. Will talk
Speaker 3: to somebody else on my last day, And I said,
Speaker 3: long as I'm here, not thinking I'm going to give
Speaker 3: the lame hair this this a phone call and see
Speaker 3: if see if I could talk to him, and so
Speaker 3: on a phone call, I said, well, I'm there. I
Speaker 3: told the guards said, let me see if dune Hairs
Speaker 3: come out and see me. So and this is in
Speaker 3: the prison there and so they it wasn't a lot
Speaker 3: of wall I forget which prison it was. They bring
Speaker 3: him down and he comes walking in there it his
Speaker 3: big old glasses on. He's about fifty pounds heavier. He
Speaker 3: goes Azinski. So you're still here, huh, I said, yeah, Jilie,
Speaker 3: how you doing? You know I'm doing Okay, where's your
Speaker 3: buddy's dagger? At the furnish tiger. I said, he's busy,
Speaker 3: but he sends his love. He goes, yeah, I bet
Speaker 3: he does. And he's kind of looking me up and down.
Speaker 3: I was, you know, dressed, you know, in a in
Speaker 3: a suit, you know, and always you know, almost to
Speaker 3: the dress and and he goes, yeah, you're still dress
Speaker 3: some pretty good. I said. He goes, I always like
Speaker 3: that about you. You always dress good. He goes, That's
Speaker 3: why I used to dress all the time. I always
Speaker 3: had a suit on and stuff, which is what I do.
Speaker 3: Was overwhelming because he always had like no jeans on,
Speaker 3: fatigues on. Because he he told me, you know that
Speaker 3: jail wouldn't be all that bad for him, because he
Speaker 3: got he got tired of trying to find places to crash,
Speaker 3: to sleep and to get three square meals a day.
Speaker 3: And you know, basically, you know, he'd married a couple
Speaker 3: of women and over that four fools have ever worked out.
Speaker 3: And but he said, yeah, he'll be all right. I'll
Speaker 3: be in jail. I'll be in jail. I get three
Speaker 3: squares a day. He washed them out, getting myself on
Speaker 3: them homosexuals and watched my jeans and corol my hair.
Speaker 3: I want to smoke a joint whenever I want to,
Speaker 3: and I won't have have you hound in me. Don't
Speaker 3: look at what a life to be looking forward to?
Speaker 5: Yeah, incredible. You talked about his performance at the trial
Speaker 5: when you said he started throwing things. He was known
Speaker 5: to maybe throw things from the defense table. He actually
Speaker 5: threw a chair into the into the gallery and then
Speaker 5: he was calling he was calling the judge tramp bitch.
Speaker 5: You said that what you had hoped for is that
Speaker 5: he would have to go against a female prosecutor. So
Speaker 5: the second chair was this Barbara Fleming, and so ye
Speaker 5: got your wish there. And then as well, you talked
Speaker 5: about the female judge, Marsha Peckman. So he really was
Speaker 5: infuriated because you knew that he had just no use
Speaker 5: for women periods. So with having them a judge and
Speaker 5: a prosecutor involved in his case, he got more than
Speaker 5: testy because the thing is he had already admitted to
Speaker 5: things and there was almost a slam dunk in terms
Speaker 5: of evidence against him, and yet he still gave the
Speaker 5: court a performance and a challenge, didn't he.
Speaker 3: Yes, just exactly what he did. It was because for him,
Speaker 3: you know, you know, he's never gonna get out again.
Speaker 3: He knew that, so the longer he can stay. Like guys,
Speaker 3: let's fail. Most guys like getting out of the county
Speaker 3: jail and going the penitentiary. People people don't think that
Speaker 3: that's how it is, but yeah, that's how it is,
Speaker 3: because the county jail is so boring television once in
Speaker 3: a while. There's no more working out. You know, they
Speaker 3: don't have any of that. You know, there's no more
Speaker 3: lifting weights and all that kind of stuff. You get.
Speaker 3: The people get fat in there. They get your You
Speaker 3: get three meals a day, not very good, feel good food.
Speaker 3: You get your phone. You still get a phone call.
Speaker 3: But you were just bored. It's noisy, it's you know, transient.
Speaker 3: Now you go to prison. Now all of a sudden,
Speaker 3: now you might be able to get smokes. You get
Speaker 3: your own coffee, You get a job, You wear different clothes,
Speaker 3: you can watch TV and as if things go on
Speaker 3: and de friends which prison and you end up going
Speaker 3: to Sometimes you get softer clothes. Sometimes you get your
Speaker 3: own room, you go to school. You know, they have
Speaker 3: ways of getting you know, ways of getting drugs and
Speaker 3: having their sex and stuff. But it's it's it's it's
Speaker 3: you call it normal. It's more normal life than anything else,
Speaker 3: is that? But Connie jail is hard, but he can't
Speaker 3: he liked it in Conny Jail. They had to keep
Speaker 3: him in seclusion because he was a bad boy and
Speaker 3: he'd always ended up getting in the fight. You're threatening
Speaker 3: people and stuff so chilly. He didn't know, he didn't
Speaker 3: know really what he wanted. But he's definitely you're right
Speaker 3: about that though. He definitely was a nice play by
Speaker 3: having a female judge, which is just by the luck
Speaker 3: of the draw that we got Marsha Peck and someone
Speaker 3: who was very good. Once again, I said what I
Speaker 3: went on the spirit clue and and Barb slumming. And
Speaker 3: Barb happened to be the prosecutor when he was in
Speaker 3: there for a robbery beef now initially, and he was
Speaker 3: throwing stuff around and and he could be and they
Speaker 3: once got he could be very scary sometimes. And one time,
Speaker 3: you know, and all the time we had to get
Speaker 3: me and him are doing his model model thing. I
Speaker 3: don't know how they transpired, but and he said, you no,
Speaker 3: you know, I ain't like them boys used to deal
Speaker 3: up here, ain't no bunks. And I go I'm not
Speaker 3: probably like one of the detectives that you used to
Speaker 3: He goes, yeah, that's right, you know, I can tell
Speaker 3: you tough, and he goes, uh uh, because they came
Speaker 3: down to a dog is, well, maybe one of us
Speaker 3: wouldn't come out of here alive, and they said it's
Speaker 3: probably probably what it would be, actually, and just kind
Speaker 3: of smile and he kind of smiles at me and
Speaker 3: stuff and uh, and he's right. I always thought it
Speaker 3: something happened. If something happened, and it's going to be
Speaker 3: me and him, it's going to be boom boom boom,
Speaker 3: boom boom. I'm not going to put his hands on me.
Speaker 3: And it's kind of crazy. It's interesting relationship you.
Speaker 5: It's interesting in the relationship you seem to have when
Speaker 5: you go see him and he says, you know, I'm
Speaker 5: sorry about all the things I said to you, because really,
Speaker 5: you and Cloyd and Dick Ganiel really were the instrumental
Speaker 5: people in putting him away. Even the tapes of the
Speaker 5: conversations in the office and when you were driving were
Speaker 5: played in court. Your testimony was crucial, and the witnesses
Speaker 5: that you gathered, like the Ayasha who had been tied
Speaker 5: up by him, which showed the the shoelace mo o
Speaker 5: that he used for his victims. You were instrumental in
Speaker 5: putting this person away, and yet he seemed to have
Speaker 5: this sort of well you just did your job and
Speaker 5: I just did what I did sort of attitude, didn't he?
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah he did. And even at the end, and
Speaker 3: I said, when I wanted to visit him at the end,
Speaker 3: you know, he's been in prison there for twenty years
Speaker 3: and in numerous prisons.
Speaker 5: And uh he was.
Speaker 3: He wasn't as warm to me as he was before,
Speaker 3: but that happened. But uh uh he for some reason
Speaker 3: he warmed me a little bit more than he did
Speaker 3: the other two guys. I was with him probably the
Speaker 3: most because dick and Dickon wasn't want them all that
Speaker 3: much toward the towards the end. And uh so it
Speaker 3: was just it was just like Cloyd and I and
Speaker 3: but I I was the one who was with him
Speaker 3: every single day. And there was a time when I
Speaker 3: was I forgot what what holiday was later there Memorial
Speaker 3: Day and I come, I checked my I would check
Speaker 3: my phone messages from from my home and there's a
Speaker 3: message on there and it's from King kind of jail
Speaker 3: and it's from Chili and and he's calling Mikey Mike
Speaker 3: and message I remember today and if I'm sitting in
Speaker 3: the same chair, what Mikey, Mike, this is Chili. Uh,
Speaker 3: he asked, the holiday, You're probably not You're probably not
Speaker 3: coming to get me today, and well, I'll probably see
Speaker 3: it Tuesday then, okay, man, Now have a nice holiday.
Speaker 3: And so that I played a recording in for my
Speaker 3: wife and I said, now, when was the last time
Speaker 3: you had a serial killer tell you to have a
Speaker 3: nice holiday? Huh? Yeah, Oh, how do you talk to
Speaker 3: that guy? How you gonna listen to him? And he said,
Speaker 3: that's that's that's just you know, being friends with Chili.
Speaker 3: And so that was that was, you know, that was
Speaker 3: that was kind of it, you know, with with Chili.
Speaker 3: And now my last visit with him, and people say,
Speaker 3: do you want to be talking to men? No, not
Speaker 3: not really. I don't want to see him. And he's
Speaker 3: still he's still flourishing. He's in uh, he's in one
Speaker 3: of our prisons here in the in the state. But
Speaker 3: Chili now is he's in the probably late fifties now.
Speaker 3: He had hepatitis. He told me he said he had
Speaker 3: he had hepatized right from the needles that he was using.
Speaker 3: If he would he would use some needles and some
Speaker 3: injecting himself at heroin. So he said, yeah, and he
Speaker 3: had that, and he had he had haptized, and he
Speaker 3: was diabetic, he had some other some other health issues.
Speaker 3: But it was I think back on, I go, well,
Speaker 3: that was that was the first serial murder that we
Speaker 3: ever did in Seattle. You know, we had ted Bundy
Speaker 3: and was but we never charged them in Seattle. So
Speaker 3: that was the first serial murder charge in Seattle. And
Speaker 3: that was nineteen ninety eight. And I just buy the
Speaker 3: luck of the draw. I was just the guy, one
Speaker 3: of the guys who was you know, on that case.
Speaker 3: And then I moved into a cold case unit in
Speaker 3: two thousand and four, and once again never even dream
Speaker 3: thought I'd work in cereal murder cases or had the
Speaker 3: desire with cereal murger case because are you know, that's
Speaker 3: a lot of work, And I ended up just because
Speaker 3: of DNA and uh, the job that I was in working,
Speaker 3: I worked like eleven serial murder cases, but I convicted
Speaker 3: seven serial murders. Time at the time I think was like, well,
Speaker 3: one you know detectives, I did the most salums. Somebody
Speaker 3: brought us up to me, another detective, another reporter that
Speaker 3: I did the most serial murders in the United States.
Speaker 3: It was just I was just in the right place
Speaker 3: the right time, and that I was a great detective,
Speaker 3: you know, I you know, put the blood was in
Speaker 3: there and stuff, and I came it came back and
Speaker 3: then matched this guy and he used in prison. I
Speaker 3: when I would talk to the guy, and I did
Speaker 3: get better interviewing and interviewing these guys. But I did
Speaker 3: notice all the same thing about these guys who was
Speaker 3: all tidies women up or strangle them a certain way,
Speaker 3: or stabbed them a certain way, or raped them and
Speaker 3: had nothing. It had nothing to do with sex. Now
Speaker 3: a lot of these guys are on the motion like
Speaker 3: they're you know, penetrating them. They're not even penetrating them.
Speaker 3: And what the motion they're getting out of is is
Speaker 3: throttling their neck, was stabbing them thirty or forty times,
Speaker 3: or stabbing them twenty times in the fun twenty times
Speaker 3: in the back, redressing them or posing them afterwards nothing
Speaker 3: to do with sex. And the same thing, like the
Speaker 3: Chili said at one time, he was mad at me
Speaker 3: when I want to talk about it. You guys, you
Speaker 3: guys said I raped them and I didn't break them
Speaker 3: and them and they gave it to me and they said,
Speaker 3: you know what I said. I said, yeah, you're right.
Speaker 3: They did. And everyone of them that was their remodel.
Speaker 3: They would do whatever they wanted for sex and h
Speaker 3: but once again it would not he would chill. He
Speaker 3: was right. They had nothing to do with texts. Man.
Speaker 3: So it's kind of crazy that, you know, we're we're
Speaker 3: talking about now. And he said, you've talked about this
Speaker 3: what love already talked to him. You probably know just
Speaker 3: as well as I do that, Uh, it isn't about
Speaker 3: the sex with these guys, you know. Yeah, Kenyway says
Speaker 3: he ain't about the sex. Thought it's all about to
Speaker 3: kill him.
Speaker 5: He said, thank you, Chili, Absolutely right, absolutely right. Very
Speaker 5: interesting too. That Cloyd Steiger that you mentioned was a
Speaker 5: guest on the program this year with his books Seattle's
Speaker 5: Forgotten serial Killer about Gary Gary gen Grant, another fascinating
Speaker 5: serial killer from the same area, and Seattle, very much
Speaker 5: like the West Coast is it's got a lot more
Speaker 5: serial killers than anywhere else. It seems historically the West
Speaker 5: Coast is notorious.
Speaker 3: Does seem that I think you probably caught up, you know,
Speaker 3: the dNaM too. I kind of funny catching up and
Speaker 3: it's kind of slowed down after twenty twenty. Man. Like
Speaker 3: I said, I convicted seven serial murderers myself, and I'll
Speaker 3: be writing another book here real soon about one. And
Speaker 3: I was I aways left because I was telling you
Speaker 3: you must very like zerial murders and a true crime.
Speaker 3: I go, not, really, you know, I've read some of
Speaker 3: the for two books, you know, you know, three books
Speaker 3: a week, and none of them bought true crime because
Speaker 3: that's why, you know, that's what I do. And so
Speaker 3: but it's, uh, it really is thank thankfully that your
Speaker 3: DNA came around and we're able to convict so many
Speaker 3: people across the country.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, I'm sure I have some of your guests. Yeah,
Speaker 5: thank god for DNA. Absolutely, Without it's much different. But
Speaker 5: you know, oh sure, absolutely it still comes down to
Speaker 5: the proper police work and that running down leads and
Speaker 5: running down every lead and investigating every single thing. And
Speaker 5: and as this case points out too, there's a lot
Speaker 5: of luck along with that police work as well. A
Speaker 5: couple of breaks, lucky breaks.
Speaker 3: I never yeah, I would never have gotten comes to
Speaker 3: of my witnesses. They're they're not a completely completely different case,
Speaker 3: you know, And all of a sudden, yeah, look at
Speaker 3: my you know, I'm wearing the shoes today. No, and
Speaker 3: Chili did this one. All the smokes, it's just yeah,
Speaker 3: it's just it's just crazy. It's just crazy. And but
Speaker 3: I'm still I'm happy that. Uh what I said, I
Speaker 3: never wish anybody did it well sincere murders cases that
Speaker 3: I did, I think only three of the guys that
Speaker 3: are alive now because they're they're you know, put in prisoner,
Speaker 3: they're they're set and stuff, you know, another another wife
Speaker 3: to them, and then they're dying off. And no matter
Speaker 3: how cold, I don't want anybody, none of them. Chilie,
Speaker 3: I'm happy he's dead. But yeah, I'm I'm still kind
Speaker 3: of surprised. I'm sitting here looking at Chili. Lily is
Speaker 3: a booking photo and and you know he's six six
Speaker 3: foot one. Seez it's kind of tired to believe that
Speaker 3: that was that was a big part of my life.
Speaker 3: And like I said, I've done a couple of shows
Speaker 3: and I wrote my books. Yet jungle killer and Bill.
Speaker 3: Out of all the serial murderers that I've ever worked,
Speaker 3: he is he is by far the spookius by.
Speaker 5: Far, absolutely absolutely yes, and thank god too, as I
Speaker 5: say about for DNA, but thankfully he again lots of
Speaker 5: these guys are not geniuses, thankfully, and their narcissism takes
Speaker 5: over any kind of reasonable thoughts. And so he gave
Speaker 5: you a call on the phone that day and tried
Speaker 5: to play you. Fortunately you were experienced a police officer,
Speaker 5: and he as well over his head again narcissistic and
Speaker 5: just believing that he could fool people as he had
Speaker 5: fooled people all along in his career. Yes, I'm thankfully
Speaker 5: thank you.
Speaker 3: And yeah, that's exactly right. That's how was these guys
Speaker 3: they they really you know, some of the guys were
Speaker 3: I dealt with. You know, we're intelligent to a degree,
Speaker 3: just just to a degree. But uh, they all at
Speaker 3: one time, especially in Chili, is a perfect example of that.
Speaker 3: Is as you point out, is they think, they really
Speaker 3: believe that they're really smart. Be guess who are they
Speaker 3: hanging with? You know, they're you know, and they're very
Speaker 3: connising that they have a bit of intelligence. You know
Speaker 3: how to Connie people, and with Chili, you don't what's
Speaker 3: the whop for them? You have the drugs for the women,
Speaker 3: you know, and you have to give the gab and
Speaker 3: keep you know, because he would tell me goes, you know,
Speaker 3: how do you think I'd get how do you think
Speaker 3: I'd get these uh women to come up in these
Speaker 3: into the jungle. You know, I just have to you know,
Speaker 3: I'd have some I'd have tell them about some cocaine
Speaker 3: stuff and uh that is how you you know, you
Speaker 3: got to get him up here. But you got to,
Speaker 3: you know, you guys remember you know Merrick Floyd asked,
Speaker 3: what was your plan, Chili? What's your plan with these
Speaker 3: h murder? Man murder? Murder? Murder? All these smokes? I know,
Speaker 3: So thank you so much, thank you very much for
Speaker 3: having me. And I'm gonna listen to your show and
Speaker 3: I hope I can be on again some more of
Speaker 3: my on my next cases.
Speaker 5: Well, we look forward to your next book and absolutely
Speaker 5: we'll have you on the interview about that. So thank
Speaker 5: you so much for coming on and talking about your book,
Speaker 5: Seattle's Jungle Killer, a detective's account of the first serial
Speaker 5: killer convicted in Seattle. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank
Speaker 5: you so much, Mike Cizanski, you have a great evening.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much your Tuesday. Thank you