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Speaker 1: What's up everyone, and welcome to another episode of the

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Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to dive right

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back in to the Tovin Noel interview with the OIG Inspector. Question,

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so do you remember if that would have been at ten,

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a little after, a little bit before, and again, this

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is the last time you saw this big guy who's

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caused your life to flip upside down? Noel, But I can't,

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That's what I'm saying. Question. You just got a ballpark it, Noel.

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It's somewhere around ten. Question. So you just always write

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the time of the count, Noel, Yeah, with the counts,

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even if because remember on the unit you're waiting to count.

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So let's say you fill out the ten o'clock slip,

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but let's say we didn't actually go down range until

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ten thirty. You don't actually put ten thirty. It's a

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ten o'clock count, so you're always going to say ten o'clock. Question. Okay, Noel.

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So that's what I'm saying, just ballpark it question, So

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approximately ten pm, Noel, yeah, or after ten question? Okay,

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So on the round does that also say ten pm?

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I mean I know you said you populated that one.

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But what does that one say? And that's for August ninth.

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You already said August tenth. None of the rounds were

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conducted on August ninth. I guess around the ten you

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know that nothing after ten was actually conducted on the

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round sheet? Noel, it has after ten on here? Question? Okay,

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so those ones, those ones from then on, you know

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those weren't conducted, Noel right. Remember I didn't fill this

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out question, you prepopulated it, right, So I want to

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make sure we know that you said that some of

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those were conducted, Noel right. Question. You don't remember which

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ones you did, Noel right, question, but I just know

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that those are the ones that weren't conducted after ten pm?

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Noel right question. Okay, all right, so that asked, you're

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saying the last round and the count were on and

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won in the same and was that an authorized practice?

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Is a round an account if you're doing a ten

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pm count? Does that also? What can you document on

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the round sheet as something you did at ten pm?

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Noel yes question. Okay, so they can overlap for that,

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Noel yes question, or any supervisor's present for any cell

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counts or rounds in the shoe on either August ninth

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or tenth, twenty nineteen. Noel, No question, is there a

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requirement or was there at that time, that a supervisor,

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every supervisor, at least one per shift, should have conducted

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around or account with you guys in the shoe, not

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of you staff members, but the inmates. Noel, you're saying

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if the supervisor should have she gets cut off. Should

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a supervisor, you know, like a lieutenant, observed or participated

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in account or around of the inmates during their shift

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at least one? Do you know of that? Noel? I

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think so. Question? You think that they're supposed to do that? Noel? Yeah? Question,

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And during your time in the shoe, to the lieutenant

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ever participate or observe account or around while you were

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in the shoe? Noel? Redacted did? Question? Redacted? Did? Noel?

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Redacted did because she went down on the tears. But

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on the midnight to eight, Lieutenant redacted didn't walk the tears.

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Question Okay, So when redacted did on August ninth, she

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actually walked the tears and checked out the inmates, Noel,

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she did? Question she did? Okay? And when around would

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that have been? Do you remember? Noel? I don't remember

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the time. Question did she do it by herself or

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did she go with you guys while you were conducting

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around or account? Noel knows. She didn't do anything with us. Question,

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So she did it by herself, Noel? Correct question. She

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walked up and down each of the six tiers. Noel,

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she went down the tears. Question do you know if

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that is a requirement that a lieutenant does that in

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the shoe? Noel. I don't know. Question have you ever

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observed anyone prior to August ninth? Redacted? Doing that? Noel,

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observe a lieutenant going down the tier? Question? Either do

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it themselves? The lieutenant do the round themselves, or watch

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the staff members do it? Noel? Oh, no, they never know.

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They never watched us do it? Question? Never watched, never observed, Noel.

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No question. Did they ever conduct it with you? Noel,

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No question. But they would occasionally do it themselves, Noel, redacted.

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Make the lieutenants will make around? Yeah. Questions so not

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just pop into the shoe, but redacted actually go up

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and down? Noel? Yeah, some not all? Question some all right,

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And That's what I'm asking. Do you know if it's

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a requirement? Noel cuts them off that I don't know questions,

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So you don't know what the policy is, Noel. I

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don't know that the lieutenant she gets cut off rule

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or what they're supposed to do or not do? Noel,

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what's supposed to do? Question? All right, but that didn't happen?

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Did that happen more often than not when they actually

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doing around with the inmates lieutenants? Noel, if it happened

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that they walk the tears? Question correct, Noel, some of

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them do not all question which ones would do it? Noel?

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Lieutenant redacted was the shoe lieutenant? So he walks the

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tears all the time? Question Okay, Noel, and then the

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other lieutenants that's on when they come down they sign

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the round sheets. Question But do they actually do the

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rounds themselves or they just sign your sheet and check

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in with you? Noel, They don't do it all the time.

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They signed the sheet and they check in with me,

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and they'll say like is there anything going on? But

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they don't get physically or actually walk it all the time.

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Question Okay, so it's occasionally Noel. Yeah. Question all right?

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But okay, Noel, I don't know if it's a requirement.

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Question all right. You're saying you don't recall the four

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PM you may have you might not have, Noel, I

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don't recall. Question, you just don't recall, all right, So

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twelve am, three am, five am, we don't need to

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go into these specific things. You said, none of them

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were conducted, they were false. You both signed them and

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submitted them. Correct, Noel, correct question. And you knew that

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you and you knew that you had to do the

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count Noel, Yes. Question. What conversation did you have with

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Thomas about doing that? Noel. We didn't have a conversation.

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He was exhausted and he was sleeping question Thomas, Noel, yes. Question,

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So at twelve am until because you said you filled

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them all out at about twelve Noel. Yeah. Question. And

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you didn't have a conversation about filling them out at

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twelve Noel, No, because we do that all the time.

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Like when he came in, we filled them out, and

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then I think when the phone rang, he had the conversation.

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And then there was another time when I was looking

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for the count slip, he had it and I couldn't

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find it, so I had to like wake them up

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and resign the count slip. Question Now, can you walk

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me through that? So he gets a call. You already

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filled out the count slip was once obmitted. You put

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it through the door and internal came and got it. Noel. Yeah. Question,

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and that's when they called him back, Noel, and he

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spoke to whoever, and then he wrote on the count

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slip and we filled it out and I put it

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back through the door. Question for the corrected one that

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said seventy three, then you made it seventy two, Noel.

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I don't remember, but I know I filled out a

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new one question at twelve am Noel. Yeah. Question. And

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did you have to at that time fill out a

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new three am and five am Noel, Yeah, because I

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couldn't find the count slips that he had, and I

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filled it out and I woke them up and he

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filled it. I remember that question. So this was later.

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So he gets a call, he falls asleep, and then

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later you have to wake them up to resign Noel. No,

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he gets the call, he does it, then he falls asleep.

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When he gets a call to change whatever, we change it,

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and then he falls asleep. Question. So you only change

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the twelve am. He falls asleep, and then you have

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to wake them up to change the three am and

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the five am Noel, Yeah. Question okay, and you just

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never talked about that or what you were doing, Noel. No,

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we didn't talk about it. Question because that's just common practice, Noel.

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To fill out the count slips before. Question to prepopulate

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count slips, you're supposed to count inmates to make sure

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that they're there, and write the number of what you counted. Noel, Yes.

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Question common practice is you just fill that out first?

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And you said that you don't have access to that

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or what the count number is supposed to be. Noel,

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I never said I don't have access. I don't know

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how to I don't know if I have access, I

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don't know how to find what it's supposed to be. Question,

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so how do you get the number that you write

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on the slip? Noel? The number that I wrote on

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the slip, The officer gave it to me. Question, so

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whoever you replace, they tell you what the number is

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to write? Question you prepopulated that number? Is that correct? Noel? Correct?

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And you fill it out even on a regular housing unit.

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I fill it all out and when I count, because

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even if it's wrong, you can just rewrite it. Question right, Noel.

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Because even if I come in and you say it's

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seventy two, I fill it out, and I put seventy

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two on all of them, I know nobody there's no

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movement between twelve and eight. And even if I did

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and I put seventy two and I counted and it's wrong,

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I could just change it. So that's the way I've

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always done it. Question Does that sound weird to you

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or just me? Noel? What question that that's the way

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it's done, that you prepopulated alli these numbers and then

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you just changed them later if they end up being off, Noel, No,

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because they're usually not off. Question Noel. And then like

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if I'm working a unit, if I worked that unit

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and I did a double there, I counted, so I

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know that's what it is. So it doesn't sound crazy

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that I fill it out. Question Well, in this instance,

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it does because your account was wrong, the one you

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said that you counted. Noel. Okay, but that's the case.

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But I'm saying, like it's not. If I worked a

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double on eleven North and I've been there the shift

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before and the shift after, and I filled it out,

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I know there's no movement, So no it's not crazy

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that I filled it out. Question right, So had you

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worked with Thomas prior to this instance? Noel? Never question?

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You never did, Noel, no question. And there was no

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conversation with them about these not doing the counts or

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prepopulating these count slips. Noel know about pre populating the

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count slips. He came in, he filled it out, and

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I signed it. It wasn't a conversation about that. When

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it was time to do the when it was time

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to conduct the count I tried to wake him and

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he was really tired. He was like, I'm tired, and

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I didn't we didn't conduct the count. Question all right?

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And that was at what time? Twelve? Noel, I don't

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remember the time. Question? What count would have been? For that?

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You tried to wake him up? Then he said he

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was tired, Noel, I don't know. Question. You don't know, Noel,

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No question. Would it have been the twelve because you're

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already Noel cuts them off. It could have been the twelve,

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It could have been three. I don't know. Question, all right, Noel,

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he was tired. Question. So that was the one conversation.

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Noel cuts him off, because I counted upstairs, like Why

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would I go upstairs and count a unit and leave

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my unit? So I woke him up. He was tired,

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So I went upstairs and I counted with redacted. Question

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and what time was that at? Noel three and five? Question?

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You did the three in the five Noel, Yeah, question,

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you just didn't do the one in your unit? Noel.

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Right question. I'm trying to reconcile the fact that you

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never worked with Thomas before. You didn't have any conversations

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with them about it, Noel, No question. That's why I'm

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saying it sounds like it must be just common practice. Noel. Yes, question,

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You just don't conduct counts. You just fill them out

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and you fill out the forms. Noel, We didn't have

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a conversation about filling it out, no because that's common

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in there. Question? All right, so it's very common. Is

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it very common from like twelve to five count those

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three not to conduct the counts and just write them Noel,

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No question. No, it's not common? Or is it common? Noel?

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You're saying if it's not common to conduct the count

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or if it's common to indiscernible it question? Is it

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common not to conduct the counts at night or the

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early morning hours, Noel, I don't know because that's my

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first time not doing it, so I don't know if

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it's common not to conduct the count, but if it's

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common to fill it out before Foy, you need to

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make that more clear. Did you ever work midnight to

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eight am to have an experience to say what happens? Noel. No,

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not in the shoe question, So you've never worked midnight

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to eight prior to this instance, Noel, not in the

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shoe question. Okay, the other times you were in the shoe,

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was it common to fill out count slips that weren't conducted, Noel.

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In the other times that I've worked in the shoe,

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we fill She gets cut off. So you're saying you've

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never worked in the shoe, and we got the schedule

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in front of you. If you want to take a

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look to just help refresh your memory when you were

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in the shoe, was it common to fill out count

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slips that weren't conducted, Noel, count slips. We fill them out,

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and the counts were done the rounds. It was common

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to fill them out, and the rounds weren't all conducted. Question.

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So you're saying it's common to fill them out ahead

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of time, but it's not common not to conduct the rounds. Noel,

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the counts correct. All right, folks, we're gonna wrap up

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right here, and in the next episode dealing with the topic,

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we're gonna pick up where we left off. All the

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information that goes with this episode can be found in

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the description box.