Speaker 1: What's up everyone, and welcome to another episode of the
Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to dive right
back in to the Tovin Noel interview with the OIG Inspector. Question,
so do you remember if that would have been at ten,
a little after, a little bit before, and again, this
is the last time you saw this big guy who's
caused your life to flip upside down? Noel, But I can't,
That's what I'm saying. Question. You just got a ballpark it, Noel.
It's somewhere around ten. Question. So you just always write
the time of the count, Noel, Yeah, with the counts,
even if because remember on the unit you're waiting to count.
So let's say you fill out the ten o'clock slip,
but let's say we didn't actually go down range until
ten thirty. You don't actually put ten thirty. It's a
ten o'clock count, so you're always going to say ten o'clock. Question. Okay, Noel.
So that's what I'm saying, just ballpark it question, So
approximately ten pm, Noel, yeah, or after ten question? Okay,
So on the round does that also say ten pm?
I mean I know you said you populated that one.
But what does that one say? And that's for August ninth.
You already said August tenth. None of the rounds were
conducted on August ninth. I guess around the ten you
know that nothing after ten was actually conducted on the
round sheet? Noel, it has after ten on here? Question? Okay,
so those ones, those ones from then on, you know
those weren't conducted, Noel right. Remember I didn't fill this
out question, you prepopulated it, right, So I want to
make sure we know that you said that some of
those were conducted, Noel right. Question. You don't remember which
ones you did, Noel right, question, but I just know
that those are the ones that weren't conducted after ten pm?
Noel right question. Okay, all right, so that asked, you're
saying the last round and the count were on and
won in the same and was that an authorized practice?
Is a round an account if you're doing a ten
pm count? Does that also? What can you document on
the round sheet as something you did at ten pm?
Noel yes question. Okay, so they can overlap for that,
Noel yes question, or any supervisor's present for any cell
counts or rounds in the shoe on either August ninth
or tenth, twenty nineteen. Noel, No question, is there a
requirement or was there at that time, that a supervisor,
every supervisor, at least one per shift, should have conducted
around or account with you guys in the shoe, not
of you staff members, but the inmates. Noel, you're saying
if the supervisor should have she gets cut off. Should
a supervisor, you know, like a lieutenant, observed or participated
in account or around of the inmates during their shift
at least one? Do you know of that? Noel? I
think so. Question? You think that they're supposed to do that? Noel? Yeah? Question,
And during your time in the shoe, to the lieutenant
ever participate or observe account or around while you were
in the shoe? Noel? Redacted did? Question? Redacted? Did? Noel?
Redacted did because she went down on the tears. But
on the midnight to eight, Lieutenant redacted didn't walk the tears.
Question Okay, So when redacted did on August ninth, she
actually walked the tears and checked out the inmates, Noel,
she did? Question she did? Okay? And when around would
that have been? Do you remember? Noel? I don't remember
the time. Question did she do it by herself or
did she go with you guys while you were conducting
around or account? Noel knows. She didn't do anything with us. Question,
So she did it by herself, Noel? Correct question. She
walked up and down each of the six tiers. Noel,
she went down the tears. Question do you know if
that is a requirement that a lieutenant does that in
the shoe? Noel. I don't know. Question have you ever
observed anyone prior to August ninth? Redacted? Doing that? Noel,
observe a lieutenant going down the tier? Question? Either do
it themselves? The lieutenant do the round themselves, or watch
the staff members do it? Noel? Oh, no, they never know.
They never watched us do it? Question? Never watched, never observed, Noel.
No question. Did they ever conduct it with you? Noel,
No question. But they would occasionally do it themselves, Noel, redacted.
Make the lieutenants will make around? Yeah. Questions so not
just pop into the shoe, but redacted actually go up
and down? Noel? Yeah, some not all? Question some all right,
And That's what I'm asking. Do you know if it's
a requirement? Noel cuts them off that I don't know questions,
So you don't know what the policy is, Noel. I
don't know that the lieutenant she gets cut off rule
or what they're supposed to do or not do? Noel,
what's supposed to do? Question? All right, but that didn't happen?
Did that happen more often than not when they actually
doing around with the inmates lieutenants? Noel, if it happened
that they walk the tears? Question correct, Noel, some of
them do not all question which ones would do it? Noel?
Lieutenant redacted was the shoe lieutenant? So he walks the
tears all the time? Question Okay, Noel, and then the
other lieutenants that's on when they come down they sign
the round sheets. Question But do they actually do the
rounds themselves or they just sign your sheet and check
in with you? Noel, They don't do it all the time.
They signed the sheet and they check in with me,
and they'll say like is there anything going on? But
they don't get physically or actually walk it all the time.
Question Okay, so it's occasionally Noel. Yeah. Question all right?
But okay, Noel, I don't know if it's a requirement.
Question all right. You're saying you don't recall the four
PM you may have you might not have, Noel, I
don't recall. Question, you just don't recall, all right, So
twelve am, three am, five am, we don't need to
go into these specific things. You said, none of them
were conducted, they were false. You both signed them and
submitted them. Correct, Noel, correct question. And you knew that
you and you knew that you had to do the
count Noel, Yes. Question. What conversation did you have with
Thomas about doing that? Noel. We didn't have a conversation.
He was exhausted and he was sleeping question Thomas, Noel, yes. Question,
So at twelve am until because you said you filled
them all out at about twelve Noel. Yeah. Question. And
you didn't have a conversation about filling them out at
twelve Noel, No, because we do that all the time.
Like when he came in, we filled them out, and
then I think when the phone rang, he had the conversation.
And then there was another time when I was looking
for the count slip, he had it and I couldn't
find it, so I had to like wake them up
and resign the count slip. Question Now, can you walk
me through that? So he gets a call. You already
filled out the count slip was once obmitted. You put
it through the door and internal came and got it. Noel. Yeah. Question,
and that's when they called him back, Noel, and he
spoke to whoever, and then he wrote on the count
slip and we filled it out and I put it
back through the door. Question for the corrected one that
said seventy three, then you made it seventy two, Noel.
I don't remember, but I know I filled out a
new one question at twelve am Noel. Yeah. Question. And
did you have to at that time fill out a
new three am and five am Noel, Yeah, because I
couldn't find the count slips that he had, and I
filled it out and I woke them up and he
filled it. I remember that question. So this was later.
So he gets a call, he falls asleep, and then
later you have to wake them up to resign Noel. No,
he gets the call, he does it, then he falls asleep.
When he gets a call to change whatever, we change it,
and then he falls asleep. Question. So you only change
the twelve am. He falls asleep, and then you have
to wake them up to change the three am and
the five am Noel, Yeah. Question okay, and you just
never talked about that or what you were doing, Noel. No,
we didn't talk about it. Question because that's just common practice, Noel.
To fill out the count slips before. Question to prepopulate
count slips, you're supposed to count inmates to make sure
that they're there, and write the number of what you counted. Noel, Yes.
Question common practice is you just fill that out first?
And you said that you don't have access to that
or what the count number is supposed to be. Noel,
I never said I don't have access. I don't know
how to I don't know if I have access, I
don't know how to find what it's supposed to be. Question,
so how do you get the number that you write
on the slip? Noel? The number that I wrote on
the slip, The officer gave it to me. Question, so
whoever you replace, they tell you what the number is
to write? Question you prepopulated that number? Is that correct? Noel? Correct?
And you fill it out even on a regular housing unit.
I fill it all out and when I count, because
even if it's wrong, you can just rewrite it. Question right, Noel.
Because even if I come in and you say it's
seventy two, I fill it out, and I put seventy
two on all of them, I know nobody there's no
movement between twelve and eight. And even if I did
and I put seventy two and I counted and it's wrong,
I could just change it. So that's the way I've
always done it. Question Does that sound weird to you
or just me? Noel? What question that that's the way
it's done, that you prepopulated alli these numbers and then
you just changed them later if they end up being off, Noel, No,
because they're usually not off. Question Noel. And then like
if I'm working a unit, if I worked that unit
and I did a double there, I counted, so I
know that's what it is. So it doesn't sound crazy
that I fill it out. Question Well, in this instance,
it does because your account was wrong, the one you
said that you counted. Noel. Okay, but that's the case.
But I'm saying, like it's not. If I worked a
double on eleven North and I've been there the shift
before and the shift after, and I filled it out,
I know there's no movement, So no it's not crazy
that I filled it out. Question right, So had you
worked with Thomas prior to this instance? Noel? Never question?
You never did, Noel, no question. And there was no
conversation with them about these not doing the counts or
prepopulating these count slips. Noel know about pre populating the
count slips. He came in, he filled it out, and
I signed it. It wasn't a conversation about that. When
it was time to do the when it was time
to conduct the count I tried to wake him and
he was really tired. He was like, I'm tired, and
I didn't we didn't conduct the count. Question all right?
And that was at what time? Twelve? Noel, I don't
remember the time. Question? What count would have been? For that?
You tried to wake him up? Then he said he
was tired, Noel, I don't know. Question. You don't know, Noel,
No question. Would it have been the twelve because you're
already Noel cuts them off. It could have been the twelve,
It could have been three. I don't know. Question, all right, Noel,
he was tired. Question. So that was the one conversation.
Noel cuts him off, because I counted upstairs, like Why
would I go upstairs and count a unit and leave
my unit? So I woke him up. He was tired,
So I went upstairs and I counted with redacted. Question
and what time was that at? Noel three and five? Question?
You did the three in the five Noel, Yeah, question,
you just didn't do the one in your unit? Noel.
Right question. I'm trying to reconcile the fact that you
never worked with Thomas before. You didn't have any conversations
with them about it, Noel, No question. That's why I'm
saying it sounds like it must be just common practice. Noel. Yes, question,
You just don't conduct counts. You just fill them out
and you fill out the forms. Noel, We didn't have
a conversation about filling it out, no because that's common
in there. Question? All right, so it's very common. Is
it very common from like twelve to five count those
three not to conduct the counts and just write them Noel,
No question. No, it's not common? Or is it common? Noel?
You're saying if it's not common to conduct the count
or if it's common to indiscernible it question? Is it
common not to conduct the counts at night or the
early morning hours, Noel, I don't know because that's my
first time not doing it, so I don't know if
it's common not to conduct the count, but if it's
common to fill it out before Foy, you need to
make that more clear. Did you ever work midnight to
eight am to have an experience to say what happens? Noel. No,
not in the shoe question, So you've never worked midnight
to eight prior to this instance, Noel, not in the
shoe question. Okay, the other times you were in the shoe,
was it common to fill out count slips that weren't conducted, Noel.
In the other times that I've worked in the shoe,
we fill She gets cut off. So you're saying you've
never worked in the shoe, and we got the schedule
in front of you. If you want to take a
look to just help refresh your memory when you were
in the shoe, was it common to fill out count
slips that weren't conducted, Noel, count slips. We fill them out,
and the counts were done the rounds. It was common
to fill them out, and the rounds weren't all conducted. Question.
So you're saying it's common to fill them out ahead
of time, but it's not common not to conduct the rounds. Noel,
the counts correct. All right, folks, we're gonna wrap up
right here, and in the next episode dealing with the topic,
we're gonna pick up where we left off. All the
information that goes with this episode can be found in
the description box.