1 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:20,440 Speaker 1: And we are back with another edition of the Federalist 2 00:00:20,519 --> 00:00:23,839 Radio Hour. I'm Matt Kittle, Senior Elections correspondent at the 3 00:00:23,879 --> 00:00:28,519 Federalist and your experienced Shirpa on today's quest for Knowledge. 4 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:31,640 As always, you can email the show at radio at 5 00:00:31,679 --> 00:00:35,920 the Federalist dot com, follow us on x at FDR LST, 6 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:39,320 make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcast, and 7 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:42,439 of course to the premium version of our website as well. 8 00:00:43,039 --> 00:00:47,000 Our guest today is Cornell Law professor William Jacobson, founder 9 00:00:47,439 --> 00:00:52,240 of Equal Protect dot org, a civil rights initiative devoted 10 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:55,520 to the fair treatment of all persons without regard to 11 00:00:55,679 --> 00:01:01,159 race or ethnicity. It's a critical project and relevant to 12 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:04,959 what we plan to talk about today. We discuss President 13 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:09,640 Trump's new higher ed reform plan targeting the DEI cult 14 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:14,200 on college campuses. Professor Jacobson, As always, it's a pleasure. 15 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:16,239 Thank you for joining us on the Federalist Radio Hour. 16 00:01:16,879 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me on. 17 00:01:18,799 --> 00:01:23,599 Speaker 1: Absolutely this is basically what we're talking about. The President 18 00:01:24,239 --> 00:01:29,159 recently announced a sweeping new plan to reform American higher education, 19 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:34,959 pledging his administration's commitment to rooting out what he called 20 00:01:35,159 --> 00:01:40,719 woke education. Policies that have been corrupting college campuses across 21 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:44,359 the country. That woke stuff is very much tied to 22 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:49,599 the diversity, equity and inclusion agenda. It's not just an agenda, 23 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:52,799 it's a way of life on these college campuses. Do 24 00:01:52,879 --> 00:01:56,319 you think that this latest move by the president will 25 00:01:56,359 --> 00:02:00,959 accomplish what he hopes it can do well. 26 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 3: It's a very difficult situation because the DEI culture, which 27 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:10,080 is a culture that focuses not on individuals and not 28 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:15,840 on individual rights, but on group identity issues, is so 29 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:18,520 deeply deeply embedded. 30 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:18,919 Speaker 2: In the universities. 31 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 3: I mean, I see it at Cornell myself that it's 32 00:02:22,439 --> 00:02:24,280 going to be very tough to get rid of. It 33 00:02:24,479 --> 00:02:28,000 has a quasi religious feel to it. It is the 34 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:31,759 reason to be for a lot of administrators and a 35 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:35,120 lot of professors, and it's going to be tough. 36 00:02:35,319 --> 00:02:36,719 Speaker 2: I think that his. 37 00:02:38,319 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 3: Use of federal funding is probably the biggest and best 38 00:02:41,759 --> 00:02:45,120 instrument that he has, and he has wielded. 39 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:48,960 Speaker 2: That so far to some extent with success. 40 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:53,599 Speaker 3: But there was the agreement with Columbia to change certain practices. 41 00:02:54,039 --> 00:02:57,759 But at its core, this is a cultural problem and 42 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:00,319 that's going to be much tougher to get at. So, 43 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:04,199 in response to the question is he likely to be successful, 44 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:08,000 what's the chances? It's hard to say. I think if 45 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:12,240 this effort he's making is sustained only for two to 46 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:16,080 three years, it will ultimately fail. The way I like 47 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:20,919 to describe it is the DEI bureaucrats and advocates on 48 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:26,199 campuses are like survivors of a shipwreck clinging to a 49 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:30,080 lifeboat waiting for help to arrive. They think they can 50 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:34,960 outlast the Trump administration and we'll find out in three years, 51 00:03:35,759 --> 00:03:38,479 you know, whoever this success or administration is going to be. 52 00:03:38,919 --> 00:03:43,199 But clearly nobody wants to change. They're not going to change. 53 00:03:43,719 --> 00:03:48,360 They will only change superficially to the extent their funding 54 00:03:48,439 --> 00:03:49,520 is dependent on it. 55 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 2: But they are not going. 56 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:54,879 Speaker 3: To give up the ideology. It's going to take many 57 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:56,000 years to get there. 58 00:03:56,599 --> 00:03:58,599 Speaker 1: I think that's a good way to put it, that 59 00:03:58,639 --> 00:04:06,479 they are clinging to the thing and obstinately as as possible. 60 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:11,240 I think about a recent video coming out of the 61 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:17,480 University of Iowa and good old Iowa City, small town midwest, 62 00:04:18,079 --> 00:04:21,800 you know, big ten campus obviously, and so you know, 63 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:26,680 really into the cult of DEI. But we see video 64 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:33,879 of a of a faculty member or someone within the 65 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:40,120 college talking about how, yeah, we we we're supposed to 66 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:44,199 be changing this. This was a statewide order similar to 67 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:46,959 what is happening at the national level with what the 68 00:04:46,959 --> 00:04:52,920 president is doing here, and they talked about how they 69 00:04:53,079 --> 00:04:58,519 just change the terminology, but the result is the same 70 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:01,480 sort of discrimination that we've seen throughout. How do you 71 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:06,160 get through that kind of mindset and actual assault on 72 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:08,720 laws in this country? 73 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:13,639 Speaker 3: The enforcement has to be local. You have to get 74 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:16,480 the schools to police themselves. 75 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 2: And the way that. 76 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:22,279 Speaker 3: Trump administration is trying to do that and they're compact 77 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:27,160 with Higher Education that was released not long ago. They're 78 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:31,079 offering a carrot and a stick. The carrot is for 79 00:05:31,199 --> 00:05:37,720 schools which you're willing to reform in compliance with that compact. 80 00:05:38,399 --> 00:05:41,439 There will be financial incentives. They will essentially get the 81 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:44,240 fast track on federal funding, and there will be other 82 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:47,560 perks that come along with it. So, if you're willing 83 00:05:47,639 --> 00:05:51,920 to reform yourself on all these horrible practices, if you're 84 00:05:51,959 --> 00:05:54,759 willing to move the campus a little bit back towards 85 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:58,959 the center, if you're willing to open up viewpoint diversity, 86 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:02,240 not just skinct diversity, if you're willing to do all 87 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:05,439 these things, there will be an incentive for you, there 88 00:06:05,439 --> 00:06:08,360 will be a carrot. But there's also the stick in 89 00:06:08,439 --> 00:06:12,000 that same compact, which is, if you're not willing to 90 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:14,279 do that, well, we're going to just keep doing what 91 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:16,560 we're doing. We're going to scrutinize you, and if we 92 00:06:16,639 --> 00:06:19,480 find violations of law, we're going to yank your funding. 93 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:23,000 And you, colleges choose which way you want to go. 94 00:06:23,079 --> 00:06:26,560 It's a fork in the road. You can cooperate with us, 95 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:30,800 or you cannot cooperate with us. Your choice, and there's 96 00:06:32,879 --> 00:06:35,199 a carrot if you cooperate, and there's a stick if 97 00:06:35,199 --> 00:06:38,199 you don't. And I think that's probably the right approach 98 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:43,000 because trying to regulate what happens on campuses from Washington, 99 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:46,279 d C. One is generally speaking not a good idea 100 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:52,680 and two ineffective anyway, because as you mentioned, they're behind 101 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:56,839 closed door, still doing the same things. They're rebranding. So 102 00:06:56,920 --> 00:06:59,560 we issued a report over a year ago about the 103 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:03,879 branding efforts at Cornell. It used to be called Diversity, 104 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:08,360 Equity and Inclusion. Then they changed the name to I 105 00:07:08,399 --> 00:07:12,519 think it was Diversity and Inclusion, and now they've changed 106 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:15,480 the name to something ridiculous. I don't even remember what 107 00:07:15,519 --> 00:07:18,079 it is, something with the word belonging in it. Okay, 108 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:22,759 So they're constantly branding belonging in inclusion. 109 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:26,759 Speaker 1: I belong yes, belonging in inclusion, which continues to have 110 00:07:26,879 --> 00:07:31,879 the original concept of And again, all of these words 111 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:37,879 that they've used, these catchphrases, are exactly the opposite of 112 00:07:37,959 --> 00:07:41,519 what we think about when we think about, you know, 113 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:46,040 a colorblind society. They don't want a color blind society. 114 00:07:46,199 --> 00:07:53,040 They don't want things based on merit, they don't want 115 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:58,639 it's just a thumb on the scale of it all. 116 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:01,839 That's what the whole concept of equity is really all about. 117 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:05,279 It's about opening up spots for the people that they 118 00:08:05,319 --> 00:08:08,680 think have been discriminated against. It's like your organization talks 119 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:14,560 about that to fight racism. You don't use racism, But 120 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:16,639 that is exactly what they're doing, is it not. 121 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 2: Yes, it is. 122 00:08:18,079 --> 00:08:23,399 Speaker 3: I mean, that's a worldview that does not view individuals 123 00:08:23,399 --> 00:08:29,079 as individuals. So when somebody applies to your school, you 124 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:32,039 don't care so much about who this person is. 125 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:33,799 Speaker 2: You care about what skin color they have. 126 00:08:34,039 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 3: Which box can be checked, which ethnicity they are, which 127 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:42,000 gender identity, they are all of those things that are 128 00:08:42,039 --> 00:08:46,600 group identities as opposed to focusing on the individual. And 129 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:49,559 I think it was Chief Justice Roberts in one of 130 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:52,200 the cases a few years ago, said the way to 131 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:56,840 stop racial discrimination is to stop discriminating on the basis 132 00:08:56,840 --> 00:09:00,600 of race. But they don't see it that way. They say, well, 133 00:09:00,639 --> 00:09:04,679 there was slavery, there was Jim Crow. And my response is, well, okay, 134 00:09:04,759 --> 00:09:07,440 tell me about the individual. Don't tell me about groups. 135 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:09,600 Don't tell me about one hundred years ago. Tell me 136 00:09:09,639 --> 00:09:14,679 about this individual. And there's almost no societal harm that 137 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:18,799 can't be fixed by focusing on the individual. So if 138 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:22,960 an individual was in fact subjected to racism, that can 139 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:25,759 be considered. The Supreme Court said that in the Students 140 00:09:25,799 --> 00:09:29,559 for Fair Admissions the Affirmative Action case specifically said that 141 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:34,320 it is okay to consider an individual's experience with racism, 142 00:09:34,519 --> 00:09:38,080 but you cannot stereotype and assume that everyone with a 143 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:41,639 certain skin color has suffered harm and everyone with a 144 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:45,480 different skilled and color has gotten rewarded in life. Those 145 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:49,519 gross generalizations and stereotypes are not good enough as a 146 00:09:49,519 --> 00:09:52,039 matter of law. But that's what the attitude is. So 147 00:09:52,399 --> 00:09:55,600 if you have somebody who was in fact discriminated against. 148 00:09:55,639 --> 00:09:58,360 That can be considered when they're applying to college or 149 00:09:58,399 --> 00:09:59,039 anything else. 150 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:02,279 Speaker 2: And so this is the problem. 151 00:10:02,919 --> 00:10:07,320 Speaker 3: The Trump administration is fighting a deeply ingrained culture, which 152 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:13,720 is why pushing the obligation to enforce these rules and 153 00:10:13,399 --> 00:10:17,840 the civil rights laws onto the colleges I think is 154 00:10:17,879 --> 00:10:20,240 probably the right way. They know what's going on on 155 00:10:20,279 --> 00:10:22,279 the campus. They may not want to admit it, but 156 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:27,279 they know and they should be held responsible. So that compact, 157 00:10:27,639 --> 00:10:32,000 among other things, makes the president or chief executive of 158 00:10:32,039 --> 00:10:37,360 a university responsible for these violations, responsible for failure to 159 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:44,799 adhere to the compact. It also requires that these policies 160 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:49,000 be adopted throughout the university, and that's really the way 161 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,120 to do it. So I think they're onto something here, 162 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:54,759 but there is going to be there. Already is massive pushback, 163 00:10:55,320 --> 00:11:00,559 massive claims that this interferes with academic independence. I guess 164 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:04,440 my response to that is where has academic independence gotten you. 165 00:11:05,159 --> 00:11:09,039 I'm all in favor of academic independence, but you have 166 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:12,120 killed the golden goose, Okay, the goose that laid the 167 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:15,399 golden egg. You had a good thing going academia. You 168 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:19,039 had almost unlimited federal funding. All you had to do 169 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:23,080 is be modestly moderate. All you had to do is 170 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:27,200 not purge conservatives from the campuses, which has happened. There 171 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:31,080 are almost no conservative professors left on campuses. 172 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:31,679 Speaker 2: Approaching zero. 173 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 3: All you had to do is not get carried away, 174 00:11:36,279 --> 00:11:39,000 and you couldn't do that. Okay, So you're telling us 175 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:42,639 that you want absolute independence. On the other hand, your 176 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:49,639 absolute independence has created a terribly unhealthy situation for higher education. 177 00:11:50,039 --> 00:11:53,440 You've turned the population against you. You're biting the hand 178 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:57,200 that feeds you. This is an unsustainable model. It's in 179 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:00,879 your own interest to do what we're asking you to do. 180 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:05,039 You can't keep going with this bubble because it's going 181 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:09,000 to burst sooner or later, and the higher education system 182 00:12:09,799 --> 00:12:12,879 needs an intervention. And that's how I view what the 183 00:12:12,919 --> 00:12:16,799 Trump administration is doing, is they need an intervention. They 184 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:22,080 cannot reform themselves because there is no internal opposition left. 185 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:25,559 There is nobody who is going to reform them who 186 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:28,080 works on a campus. There may be people like me 187 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:31,600 who speak out, but I'm almost or close to a 188 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:35,799 loan on a massive university campus. There you will not 189 00:12:35,919 --> 00:12:39,039 find I think even one or two other people at 190 00:12:39,039 --> 00:12:41,679 Cornell who will say the things that I'm saying and 191 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:44,759 call for the reforms I'm calling for, so there is 192 00:12:44,799 --> 00:12:49,519 no internal opposition left. Higher education cannot reform itself. It's 193 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:53,960 on an unsustainable bubble that's going to destroy higher education. 194 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:57,240 It needs an intervention. It needs an adult in the room. 195 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:00,399 And I think that the person who's doling out the 196 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:03,360 money is that logical person, and that person is the 197 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:06,600 federal government. I wish the federal government wasn't involved at all. 198 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:12,399 I wish that academia had been more responsible, but it wasn't. 199 00:13:12,879 --> 00:13:16,360 You if in a better world, the federal government should 200 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:18,720 keep its hands off of academia, but we don't live 201 00:13:18,759 --> 00:13:21,159 in a better world. We live in a world where 202 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:24,679 it has become a bubble where half the population is 203 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:27,799 not just excluded, but demonized on campuses. 204 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:29,440 Speaker 2: What kind of model is that? 205 00:13:29,519 --> 00:13:32,200 Speaker 3: What kind of future is that for higher education? There's 206 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:35,600 no future. The bubble has burst, and it's time for 207 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:40,279 the adult in the room to force reforms onto higher education. 208 00:13:44,039 --> 00:13:47,960 Speaker 4: We've got ourselves in insurance catastrophe. The Watched Out on 209 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,080 Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski. Every day, Chris helps 210 00:13:51,159 --> 00:13:53,759 unpack the connection between politics and the economy and how 211 00:13:53,799 --> 00:13:56,480 it affects your wallet. It doesn't make any difference whether 212 00:13:56,519 --> 00:14:01,320 it's health, auto home, everyone is getting. It's getting worse 213 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:04,519 instead of better. Does Marjorie Taylor Green have the solution? 214 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:06,759 Whether it's happening in DC or down on Wall Street, 215 00:14:06,799 --> 00:14:08,000 it's affecting you financially. 216 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 1: Be informed. 217 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:10,720 Speaker 4: Check out the Watchdout on Wall Street podcast with Chris 218 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:13,759 Markowski on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. 219 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:23,879 Speaker 1: The intervention, Yes, enema. Possibly the higher education system could 220 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:26,600 use an enema. You're right when you say the purging 221 00:14:26,639 --> 00:14:31,120 that's gone on over the last not just few years 222 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:36,000 when everybody's attention turned to this DEI cult and all 223 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:37,799 of that sort of thing. This has been going on 224 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:41,519 for a long time. It's picked up its pace obviously 225 00:14:41,559 --> 00:14:44,799 over the last decade and certainly over the Trump era, 226 00:14:45,639 --> 00:14:49,360 because that is the political side of all of this thing. 227 00:14:49,399 --> 00:14:51,960 But you said it earlier. I think you put your 228 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:54,039 finger on it when you talk about the individual versus 229 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:58,960 the group. That's what DEI really is about. It's the group. 230 00:14:59,639 --> 00:15:07,399 It's group think, it is group politics, it is identity politics. 231 00:15:07,559 --> 00:15:11,000 And how much of this stuff is really driven by 232 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:17,720 power by politics as opposed to good education. 233 00:15:19,039 --> 00:15:23,399 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I think that our political system, if you see, 234 00:15:23,399 --> 00:15:26,480 and getting back to this issue of conservatives being purged, 235 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:30,279 it's not so much that people have been fired, although 236 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:32,360 that has happened in certain cases. 237 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:34,159 Speaker 2: It's more that they're not hired. 238 00:15:35,039 --> 00:15:37,759 Speaker 3: And so you have a culture which over thirty to 239 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:45,639 forty years has excluded half the population from participation in 240 00:15:45,679 --> 00:15:50,759 the campuses, and that results in bad policy, bad politics, 241 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:54,799 because these are the people who go to become journalists 242 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:59,320 and politics and all other sorts of things that have 243 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:03,159 impact on society. It's one of the ways we got 244 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:06,960 to where we are now that New York City looks 245 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:11,320 likely to elect an outright socialist who hates our country 246 00:16:11,559 --> 00:16:12,240 as its mayor. 247 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:14,919 Speaker 1: Well, so was that the design? Was that the plan 248 00:16:15,519 --> 00:16:16,120 all along? 249 00:16:17,559 --> 00:16:18,399 Speaker 2: I think it was. 250 00:16:18,559 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 3: I mean, if you look at the writings back in 251 00:16:22,159 --> 00:16:25,360 the sixties and the seventies, and you look at the approach, 252 00:16:26,039 --> 00:16:29,480 the left recognized that if you want to change society, 253 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:33,080 you change it by taking over education. Now, I don't 254 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:35,799 think forty years ago they said we're going to get 255 00:16:35,799 --> 00:16:39,279 a socialist elected mayor of New York City. But what 256 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:42,360 they did recognize is that that was a weak point 257 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:46,960 in society. The most conservative family, the most traditional family. 258 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:50,080 The second you put your kids in a public school, 259 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:54,279 whether it's K through twelve or even private higher education, 260 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:57,960 the second you put them into the education system, you 261 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:01,200 have surrendered them. You've surrendered them to people who don't 262 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:03,679 have our best interests at heart, and who view our 263 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:07,359 country is inherently evil. And that's what they teach kids. 264 00:17:07,599 --> 00:17:11,720 I mean, the entire thrust of the leftist agenda is 265 00:17:11,759 --> 00:17:15,000 that the United States is uniquely evil in the world, 266 00:17:15,319 --> 00:17:19,559 and capital is uniquely evil in the world. And that's 267 00:17:19,599 --> 00:17:23,319 why you have increasing numbers of students, or increasing numbers 268 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:28,279 of younger people who believe that socialism is a better model. 269 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:32,839 And yes, wasn't their plan. Yes, it was their plan 270 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:36,359 to convert a generation. It was not their plan to 271 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:39,400 elect somebody the mayor of New York City who's a socialist. 272 00:17:39,599 --> 00:17:42,799 They probably didn't even dream that big. Okay, they probably 273 00:17:42,839 --> 00:17:45,960 wouldn't have even thought that was possible, that the home 274 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:49,079 of capitalism, the home of the stock exchanges, you know, 275 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:54,279 the home of you know, corporate America, We're going to 276 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:57,119 convert that to socialism. I don't even think they dreamed 277 00:17:57,119 --> 00:17:59,200 that big, But it's the end result. 278 00:18:00,839 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 1: It certainly is. And you know, I've talked about higher education. 279 00:18:05,799 --> 00:18:08,759 Higher education, as you mentioned, needs an intervention sort of 280 00:18:08,759 --> 00:18:12,440 our public school systems, and it's all tied together. It's 281 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:15,599 maybe a conversation for a different day. We're really focusing 282 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:21,680 on what's happening in our universities and college campuses on 283 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:26,599 the front of carrot and stick. We have seen some 284 00:18:26,839 --> 00:18:30,759 movement on this front from the Harvards of the world, 285 00:18:30,759 --> 00:18:37,039 if you will, talking about changing policies. As we mentioned, 286 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:41,599 they can change those policies, they can change the terminology 287 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:43,440 but still do the same sort of thing. That's why 288 00:18:43,519 --> 00:18:46,799 enforcement is so critical in all of this. But we 289 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:51,960 have seen some movements some university saying, okay, we don't 290 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:54,559 want to lose that funding. It's not because they had 291 00:18:54,559 --> 00:18:56,720 an epiphany and they said, you know what, we've been 292 00:18:56,759 --> 00:18:59,839 engaging in racism now, you know, come to think of it. 293 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,240 Professor Jacobson and the rest of the folks who are 294 00:19:03,279 --> 00:19:09,079 fighting against this racism, they're absolutely right. Anti discrimination or 295 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:13,839 anti racism is actually is actually racism and all of 296 00:19:13,839 --> 00:19:16,079 these sorts of things. They're doing it because there are 297 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:21,200 dollar signs at stake here and a good significant amount 298 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:27,799 of dollar signs. Do you see them really fully changing 299 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:33,119 because of these sorts of federal policies. At least over 300 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:38,920 the next three years. 301 00:19:36,799 --> 00:19:39,599 Speaker 2: I see changes being made. Three years is not long enough. 302 00:19:39,839 --> 00:19:44,400 Speaker 3: If this project to reform education ends in three years 303 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:50,559 at the twenty twenty eight election, then the gains will 304 00:19:50,599 --> 00:19:54,160 be temporary. This is going to become roaring. 305 00:19:53,839 --> 00:19:57,839 Speaker 2: Back, like an allergic reaction. It's going to be much worse. 306 00:19:57,599 --> 00:20:01,279 Speaker 3: Because there's a lot of angry people in the DEI 307 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:03,160 industrial complex right now. 308 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:04,960 Speaker 2: You have to. 309 00:20:05,079 --> 00:20:10,759 Speaker 3: Eliminate the departments, eliminate the jobs, eliminate the ideologies. And 310 00:20:10,839 --> 00:20:14,799 if that keeps up for in my estimation, six to 311 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:18,720 ten years, I think you will have effected tremendous change 312 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:22,880 because people will move on. But if it's only two 313 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:23,920 to three years, it. 314 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:26,200 Speaker 2: Won't be long enough. It won't be long enough. 315 00:20:26,279 --> 00:20:30,200 Speaker 3: And that's why I think there was some irrational exuberance 316 00:20:30,599 --> 00:20:34,119 early in the Trump two point zero term when he 317 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:39,240 issued a bunch of executive orders addressing the DEI problem 318 00:20:39,279 --> 00:20:44,519 and the problem in contracting, etc. And my view was 319 00:20:44,599 --> 00:20:49,000 that the reports of the death of DEI are premature. 320 00:20:50,279 --> 00:20:55,319 To paraphrase a famous saying, and it's true it's going 321 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:59,240 to take many years. It's going to need to change 322 00:20:59,799 --> 00:21:05,160 what has happened with the bureaucracies and everything else. I 323 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:07,759 think it can change, but six to ten years is 324 00:21:07,799 --> 00:21:08,759 my time frame. 325 00:21:09,599 --> 00:21:12,799 Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, And all of those executive orders issued can 326 00:21:12,839 --> 00:21:16,039 go right away, just as we saw in twenty twenty 327 00:21:16,039 --> 00:21:20,720 one when the DEI president Joe Biden took over and 328 00:21:20,839 --> 00:21:23,599 whatever he was signing, whatever was put in front of him, 329 00:21:23,759 --> 00:21:24,759 or his auto. 330 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:26,920 Speaker 2: Pattern, whatever the machine was signing. 331 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 1: Whatever the machine was signing at that time, he was 332 00:21:30,039 --> 00:21:32,880 all in. And that is the problem is that if 333 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:37,400 you really want systemic change, just like the leftist in 334 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:41,119 this country, they have played the long game, there has 335 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:43,920 to be a long game for it, and obviously that 336 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:48,960 involves at a basic level politics. Our guest today is 337 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:53,960 Cornell Law professor William Jacobson, founder of Equal protect dot org, 338 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:56,920 a civil rights initiative devoted to the fair treatment of 339 00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:00,680 all persons without regard to race or ethnicity. We'll talk 340 00:22:00,759 --> 00:22:04,599 more about that organization coming up in just a moment, 341 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:13,599 but let's go back to the new reform strategy from 342 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:17,440 the Trump administration. What does it ultimately aim to do? 343 00:22:17,519 --> 00:22:21,160 What are some of the details of that that are important, 344 00:22:21,519 --> 00:22:24,359 some of the details that may, in your estimation, not 345 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:26,759 be effective in combating all of this. 346 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:32,480 Speaker 3: Well, I think that it reinforces what is already the 347 00:22:32,599 --> 00:22:38,119 law for non discrimination. What makes very clear how broadly 348 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:42,640 it expands non discrimination based on race, ethnicity, other factors, 349 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:45,160 and sex, although there. 350 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:46,880 Speaker 2: Are some carve outs for sex. 351 00:22:49,599 --> 00:22:52,839 Speaker 3: And it puts the executive, the chief executive, the president 352 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:57,279 of the university on the hook for violations. So instilling 353 00:22:57,319 --> 00:23:02,519 that personal responsibility I think is important for the enforcement 354 00:23:02,559 --> 00:23:05,839 of the law. It could also be extremely important because 355 00:23:05,839 --> 00:23:10,200 they're going to have to certify compliance, and there are 356 00:23:10,319 --> 00:23:14,640 laws out there that if you falsely certify compliance in 357 00:23:14,759 --> 00:23:17,519 order to get funding, the funding can be pulled back 358 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:22,519 by the federal government, and so that increases the stakes. 359 00:23:22,519 --> 00:23:26,319 They're making individuals responsible, which I think is likely to 360 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:28,000 have an impact. 361 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:30,759 Speaker 2: This is one that's going. 362 00:23:30,759 --> 00:23:33,680 Speaker 3: To be fought, and it's a little harder to measure. 363 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:39,400 They're talking about protecting academic freedom, but also ceasing policies 364 00:23:39,759 --> 00:23:43,079 that demonize conservatives and others who are not in the 365 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:48,599 majority viewpoint. That's harder to measure, and that might be 366 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:53,720 subject to legal challenge in terms of viewpoint but that's 367 00:23:53,759 --> 00:23:56,440 what they're trying to do. They're trying to change the 368 00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:00,839 culture on campuses. And a perfect example is Harvard University, 369 00:24:01,039 --> 00:24:03,839 which has been ground zero for a lot of these problems, 370 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:08,920 and it's Harvard. Crimson did a survey showed that three 371 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:14,759 percent of the faculty self identified as conservative or very conservative, 372 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:20,519 and almost eighty percent identified as liberal or very liberal. 373 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:25,880 Compare those statistics to the general population. Using Gallop and 374 00:24:26,039 --> 00:24:31,119 Pew sort of numbers from reputable firms, approximately thirty eight 375 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:35,160 percent of people in the US identify as conservative or 376 00:24:35,279 --> 00:24:40,039 very conservative. Approximately twenty eight percent identify as liberal. So 377 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:43,079 there are more conservatives in this country at least people 378 00:24:43,079 --> 00:24:46,240 who identify as conservative then there are liberals. 379 00:24:46,319 --> 00:24:48,839 Speaker 2: Yet you go to Harvard and it's. 380 00:24:48,839 --> 00:24:52,519 Speaker 3: Completely out of whack, it's completely skewed. And that's okay 381 00:24:52,599 --> 00:24:54,480 to an extent, But what does it say about a 382 00:24:54,559 --> 00:24:59,559 university system that produces faculty who are in a completely 383 00:24:59,599 --> 00:25:03,039 different universe than the population of the country. And that's 384 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:07,559 just unsustainable. That is not a sustainable model. You cannot 385 00:25:07,559 --> 00:25:13,079 have a university system that hates its host country and 386 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:14,480 expect that system to. 387 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:15,279 Speaker 2: Go on forever. 388 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,160 Speaker 3: And that's what we have and so they're trying to 389 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:22,079 address that, but it's going to be tough. There are 390 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:27,359 other things here dealing with promotion, institutional neutrality, so that 391 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:31,559 institutions are not taking positions you're remembered much like the 392 00:25:31,599 --> 00:25:35,640 corporate world. After George Floyd, there were a lot of 393 00:25:35,799 --> 00:25:43,279 pronouncements about it, universities essentially making political statements. And they 394 00:25:44,039 --> 00:25:47,200 also want to limit the number of foreign students to 395 00:25:47,279 --> 00:25:52,240 a certain percentage of the student body, which I think 396 00:25:52,279 --> 00:25:56,279 could have an important impact if you notice a lot 397 00:25:56,319 --> 00:25:59,839 of the problems we've had on university campuses have and 398 00:26:00,559 --> 00:26:05,440 from foreign students, particularly at places like Columbia. And this 399 00:26:05,559 --> 00:26:07,519 is not saying you don't have foreign students, but I 400 00:26:07,519 --> 00:26:11,759 think they want it limited to fifteen percent of the 401 00:26:11,799 --> 00:26:15,480 student body. Not more than fifteen percent should be foreign. 402 00:26:16,599 --> 00:26:19,279 And that gets to something that we've written about, which 403 00:26:19,319 --> 00:26:24,359 is how is it that our universities a great American universities, 404 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:28,279 the great American universities are in some cases majority foreign. 405 00:26:28,599 --> 00:26:33,720 Columbia I believe was majority foreign. Many schools have thirty 406 00:26:33,759 --> 00:26:38,319 forty percent. These universities no longer really are American universities. 407 00:26:38,319 --> 00:26:43,079 They're foreign universities that happen to be based in America, 408 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:43,640 and that's not. 409 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:46,119 Speaker 2: Healthy for our society. So a lot of what this 410 00:26:46,279 --> 00:26:47,039 is trying to do. 411 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:51,799 Speaker 3: If you isolate an individual element, you can argue with it. 412 00:26:51,839 --> 00:26:53,680 You can say that doesn't make sense, that's not a 413 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:57,200 good idea. You know, maybe we want more foreign students 414 00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:59,799 for whatever the reason. But when you view it in 415 00:26:59,839 --> 00:27:04,359 the context of the totality, it's simply trying to bring 416 00:27:04,559 --> 00:27:09,400 our universities back towards the mainstream of the country, not 417 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:14,799 necessarily into it. We're not talking about creating conservative universities, 418 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:19,680 but we're talking about creating universities that are more in 419 00:27:19,799 --> 00:27:24,680 sync with the country as a whole, where diversity of viewpoint, 420 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:29,000 including critical viewpoint of the United States States, is preserved. 421 00:27:29,759 --> 00:27:32,920 But it can't be the only thing you hear on campuses, 422 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:34,119 which is what it is now. 423 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 1: It seems to me that the critical race theory crowd 424 00:27:37,519 --> 00:27:43,440 would like separate, but equally sees may be divided into 425 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,720 the liberal campuses and conservatives. You can go have your 426 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:53,240 conservative institutions and water fountains over there. I mean, I 427 00:27:53,279 --> 00:27:56,759 know it sounds absurd, but that's what we're doing. In fact, though, 428 00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:02,359 I think what we're seeing in in higher education across 429 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:06,200 the country, from Harvard to the smallest four year colleges. 430 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:13,440 Is this whole push to make conservatives into liberals, to 431 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:19,839 change people's perspectives forcibly, you know, And that happens in 432 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,279 a lot of different ways. It happens, as you mentioned before, 433 00:28:22,319 --> 00:28:30,319 by not how hiring conservative professors, by dominating your enrollment 434 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:36,319 with foreign students from radically anti American countries. It's no 435 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:40,960 wonder this kind of stuff is happening. But here I 436 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,920 want to ask you, in context of what we have 437 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:48,839 seen over the last month, in particular the assassination of 438 00:28:49,039 --> 00:28:54,799 Charlie Kirk on a college campus that didn't happen in 439 00:28:54,839 --> 00:28:59,519 a vacuum. Do these universities have blood on their hands now, 440 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,160 not just for Charlie Kirk, but all kinds of different 441 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:03,079 incidents we've seen. 442 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:05,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, I wouldn't go so far as to say they 443 00:29:05,519 --> 00:29:09,839 have blood on their hands, but they have created an 444 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:17,119 atmosphere of intolerance, and that atmosphere of intolerance. 445 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 2: Is endemic to the universities. 446 00:29:20,039 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 3: Now. Charlie Kirk being assassinated is an extreme example, but 447 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,400 Charlie Kirk was not allowed to appear at Cornell University. 448 00:29:29,759 --> 00:29:31,920 Can't remember the year. I want to say three or 449 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,000 four years ago, but time wise it could have been 450 00:29:34,039 --> 00:29:36,640 five years ago. I don't remember the year, but Charlie 451 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:40,640 Kirk was not allowed to appear on campus. They were 452 00:29:41,039 --> 00:29:46,440 left wing objections to him appearing. The university eventually claimed 453 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:50,599 there was some paperwork problem and that's why he couldn't appear, 454 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:54,519 but nobody believed that at all, and he ended up 455 00:29:54,559 --> 00:29:57,759 having to appear off campus in downtown Ithaca. 456 00:29:57,839 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 2: So these are non problems that started. 457 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 3: This is nothing new at my website, you know, we've 458 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:12,240 covered shoutdowns and shutdowns at Cornell and elsewhere. There was 459 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:17,359 a forget the year, I think like twenty seventeen, it 460 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:21,440 might have been. There was a one of the founders 461 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:25,359 of the Tea Party movement was invited to speak at 462 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:29,359 campus and they had to move him into hiding and 463 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:33,279 move the event into hiding because of threats against the event. 464 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:39,720 Rick Santorum was heckled at Cornell and Culter all sorts 465 00:30:39,759 --> 00:30:45,400 of people you know aren't shot, but it's a hostile environment. 466 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:50,720 I will say Cornell has taken strides to protect speakers more, 467 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:53,839 but the fact that they even have to take those strides, 468 00:30:54,039 --> 00:30:57,440 I cannot recall, and I'm not saying it never happened, 469 00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:00,160 and I've been covering higher Ed since two thousand and eight, 470 00:31:00,799 --> 00:31:06,559 I cannot recall a left wing speaker being runoff campus. 471 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:09,559 It may have happened, but it would be an aberration. 472 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:13,720 It would be the exception to the rule. It's only 473 00:31:13,839 --> 00:31:17,960 conservatives who get chased off of campuses. It's only conservatives 474 00:31:18,079 --> 00:31:21,480 who get shouted down. It's only conservatives who have to 475 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:25,200 show up with armed security. It's only conservatives who have 476 00:31:25,279 --> 00:31:28,359 to hold the event in secret, in hiding on campuses. 477 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:32,160 So and this is including at places like Cornell, which 478 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:34,759 is far from the worst. I mean, people always ask me, well, 479 00:31:34,799 --> 00:31:37,960 what's what's it like at Cornell? I said, well, the 480 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:39,559 good news is we're not Columbia. 481 00:31:39,839 --> 00:31:40,279 Speaker 2: Okay. 482 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,279 Speaker 1: You know, they should have t shirts that say that. 483 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:45,599 Speaker 2: We're not Columbia. Okay. 484 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:50,440 Speaker 3: But nonetheless, even though we're not Columbia, there is that culture, 485 00:31:50,839 --> 00:31:54,759 and it's gotten better. The administration, after a lot of criticism, 486 00:31:55,039 --> 00:32:00,400 some federal intervention, alumni complaints, pressure from alumni groups, has 487 00:32:00,559 --> 00:32:02,960 done a better job in the last couple of years 488 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:03,279 with that. 489 00:32:04,279 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 2: But why should they have had to do that? 490 00:32:06,279 --> 00:32:09,359 Speaker 3: What is it about the culture at Cornell and many 491 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:15,960 other universities that breeds the intolerance for opposing viewpoints, for 492 00:32:16,079 --> 00:32:19,759 non leftist, nonliberal viewpoints. What is wrong with this picture, 493 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:22,839 and that's something that I think the Trump administration is 494 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:25,279 trying to get at, is what is wrong with this 495 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:29,000 picture is that you have a monoculture which does not 496 00:32:29,119 --> 00:32:33,680 welcome outside viewpoints. For the most part, there are exceptions, 497 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:38,759 but that is I think a fair characterization of Higher 498 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:43,079 ED in its totality, and it's particularly a characterization of 499 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:46,160 Higher ED at the so called elite level. The top 500 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:48,960 ranked schools, not just the IVY League, but that top 501 00:32:49,039 --> 00:32:51,480 tier of schools are extremely intolerant. 502 00:32:51,759 --> 00:32:52,799 Speaker 2: And why is that? 503 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,119 Speaker 3: And that's getting back to my point that Higher ED 504 00:32:56,240 --> 00:33:00,599 needs an intervention because of that culture of intolerance. It 505 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,039 can't even recognize its own intolerance. If you were to 506 00:33:04,119 --> 00:33:08,880 ask the students shouting down people on campuses, the liberal 507 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:11,880 leftist students shouting people down, they would not think of 508 00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:14,920 themselves as intolerant. They would think of themselves as doing 509 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:18,119 a very good thing, that they're protecting others from this 510 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:23,319 hateful speech. So the culture's completely broken in Higher ED 511 00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,680 as a whole. And that's what I think Trump administration 512 00:33:26,799 --> 00:33:29,920 is trying to address. I'm not confident they will have 513 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,200 ultimate success. Again, I think this needs to be a 514 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:36,559 six to ten year effort. Some people might argue longer, 515 00:33:36,799 --> 00:33:38,880 but I don't think anybody can argue the two to 516 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:40,480 three years is going to be enough. 517 00:33:41,519 --> 00:33:47,119 Speaker 1: I always enjoy the richness of the hilarity, because if 518 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:50,119 we don't laugh, we cry. But of the people with 519 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:54,359 the coexist bumper stickers screaming in people's faces to shut up. 520 00:33:56,279 --> 00:33:59,279 That's what we have on our college campuses right now. 521 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:02,599 And you know, there's there's a there's a big problem. 522 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:07,400 You know, there's myriad examples, as you mentioned at Cornell, 523 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:11,920 I remember the UW. Madison, which certainly is no battion 524 00:34:12,079 --> 00:34:18,000 of conservatism. But in twenty sixteen, Ben Shapiro appeared on campus. 525 00:34:18,039 --> 00:34:20,840 They didn't want him there, but they ultimately did allow 526 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:25,159 him to speak, and the same sort of stuff they 527 00:34:25,159 --> 00:34:27,719 were shouting him down. They wouldn't let him go on, 528 00:34:28,039 --> 00:34:30,639 and you know, I think he handled it well, but 529 00:34:31,199 --> 00:34:34,159 at one point it just boiled over and they had, 530 00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:39,840 you know, just just angry, vain popping leftists, you know, 531 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:44,440 surrounding Shapiro and surrounding a colleague of mine, Vicky McKenna, 532 00:34:44,519 --> 00:34:48,920 who does a talk radio show, a conservative talk radio 533 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:53,000 show in Madison, of all places. You know, Vicky is 534 00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:58,920 you know, maybe one hundred and two pounds soaking wet, 535 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:02,280 and they had her surrounded and they were threatening her. 536 00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:05,639 That's what I take away from what we've seen over 537 00:35:05,679 --> 00:35:09,960 the last decade in this country on college campuses. But 538 00:35:10,079 --> 00:35:14,360 it's also the students. When you have students who are 539 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:20,199 paying tuition going to these colleges and feel not just 540 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:25,960 like they don't belong they're not part of the belonging 541 00:35:26,159 --> 00:35:31,679 that these institutions talk about, but they actually feel threatened 542 00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:35,159 on these college campuses. And we've really seen that over 543 00:35:35,199 --> 00:35:39,920 the last several weeks from leftists who have been celebrating 544 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:45,679 the assassination on college campuses of Charlie Kirk. How do 545 00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:49,280 you protect students ultimately, because that's a big part of 546 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:52,199 this that isn't always addressed well. 547 00:35:52,199 --> 00:35:55,639 Speaker 2: One of the ways is you simply enforce the rules. 548 00:35:56,360 --> 00:36:00,079 Speaker 3: And I've seen that at Cornell and elsewhere as relates 549 00:35:59,920 --> 00:36:05,440 to the Israel Gaza war, that a lot of the 550 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:09,239 anti Israel students will claim that they're being discriminated against 551 00:36:09,639 --> 00:36:14,039 because of their viewpoint that pro Palestinian viewpoints are not 552 00:36:14,119 --> 00:36:18,519 allowed on campus. In fact, pro Palestinian viewpoints dominate campus. 553 00:36:18,559 --> 00:36:20,760 Speaker 2: But that's their argument, and. 554 00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:26,639 Speaker 3: My response is, no, you aren't suspended for your pro 555 00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:30,639 Palestinian speech. You were suspended because you pushed through a 556 00:36:30,679 --> 00:36:35,719 police lineup to get to a career event and disrupt 557 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:38,599 it and prevent other students from interviewing. 558 00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:40,039 Speaker 2: That's why you were suspended. 559 00:36:40,079 --> 00:36:43,519 Speaker 3: That's an actual example at Cornell, a couple of dozen 560 00:36:43,599 --> 00:36:48,440 students I believe, were suspended because there was a career event. 561 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:51,599 They didn't like one of the companies that was going 562 00:36:51,639 --> 00:36:54,360 to be there. It was one of the weapons manufacturers, 563 00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:58,960 I can't remember which one, and they decided that nobody 564 00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:01,760 should be able to hold this event. And the Cornell 565 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:05,239 had police protecting the entrance to the building, and these people, 566 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:09,079 literally it's on video, pushed through the police pushed them aside, 567 00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:12,519 and a couple of them got criminally charged, and of 568 00:37:12,559 --> 00:37:15,599 course those charges were pretty much dismissed, as they always are. 569 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:20,000 But that's why you're suspended, Or you're suspended because you 570 00:37:20,119 --> 00:37:23,800 disrupted the library. You're not allowed to use electronic bullhorns 571 00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:26,239 in the library while people are trying to study, and 572 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:28,840 you did that, and so it wasn't your viewpoint, it's 573 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:31,519 your conduct, and they don't seem to accept that. So 574 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:34,719 a lot of the violence, a lot of these things 575 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:38,679 don't require a change of the rules. They just require 576 00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:43,039 enforcing rules that already exist. And university administrators, who a 577 00:37:43,039 --> 00:37:46,480 lot of times agree with the protesters, don't want to 578 00:37:46,519 --> 00:37:49,639 do that, and they think, oh, that's just free speech. 579 00:37:49,679 --> 00:37:52,440 Well it's not free speech when, like at UCLA, you 580 00:37:52,519 --> 00:37:57,400 set up a blockade on campus and declare a Zionist 581 00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,400 free zone and don't allow people to pay us through 582 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:03,440 unless they pledge to be anti Zionists. You're not allowed 583 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:05,960 to do that. That's not your right, that's not speech, 584 00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:10,840 that's conduct. And so enforce this as to the rioters, 585 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,639 as is to the people who shout down. There was 586 00:38:13,679 --> 00:38:15,880 a recent event at Cornell, and I keep bringing up 587 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:18,480 Cornell not because it's worse than any place, just it's 588 00:38:18,639 --> 00:38:21,119 more of my experience. I know more of what's going 589 00:38:21,159 --> 00:38:21,639 on there. 590 00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:22,960 Speaker 2: There was a recent. 591 00:38:22,679 --> 00:38:27,719 Speaker 3: Event where in order to bring diversity of viewpoint to 592 00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:31,159 the campus on the Israel Palestinian issue, because all the 593 00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:33,119 vocal faculty or against Israel. 594 00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:35,480 Speaker 2: All the vocal student groups are against Israel. 595 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:39,360 Speaker 3: The president of the university organized a panel and I 596 00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:41,719 forget who was on it, but there were names we 597 00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:44,079 would all know. I think Brett Stevens might have been 598 00:38:44,119 --> 00:38:45,679 one of them. I could be wrong in that, but 599 00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:48,599 you know, kind of name brand people up on stage. 600 00:38:48,599 --> 00:38:51,679 And that event was disrupted. So an event meant to 601 00:38:51,679 --> 00:38:55,440 bring diversity of viewpoint to campus was disrupted and they 602 00:38:55,559 --> 00:38:59,079 enforced the rules and several students got arrested and suspended. 603 00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:00,960 Speaker 2: Because that's Cornell, you know. 604 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:03,679 Speaker 3: Basically, once you're given the warning to stop the heckling 605 00:39:04,519 --> 00:39:07,199 and you don't obey it, that's now a rule infraction. 606 00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:09,599 And they did enforce it, and I think that was important. 607 00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:12,199 And of course now they're complaining about that that it 608 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:15,679 was enforced against them because they're pro Palestinian. Know it 609 00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:18,199 was enforced because you do not have the right to 610 00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,320 prevent others from speaking, and you do not have the 611 00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:25,199 right to prevent others from listening, and that's what they do, so. 612 00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:26,239 Speaker 2: Enforce the rules. 613 00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:30,599 Speaker 3: If the schools just enforced existing rules, that would go 614 00:39:30,679 --> 00:39:35,360 a long way towards solving the problem of disruptions on campus. 615 00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:36,880 Speaker 2: And shoutdowns on campus. 616 00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,480 Speaker 1: When you think it has reached the bottom of absurd, 617 00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:45,079 they keep digging. That's all I can say about that. 618 00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:49,800 And you know, it's remarkable to see this over and 619 00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:55,679 over again and hear the highly charged language from these 620 00:39:55,760 --> 00:40:00,960 leftists on college campuses American politics in general, pointing the 621 00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:05,400 finger at Donald Trump and fellow conservatives the MAGA movement 622 00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:09,360 as fascist. I ask the question, who really are the 623 00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:12,800 fascist in the United States of America today? It would 624 00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:15,000 seem to me the people who are trying to shut 625 00:40:15,039 --> 00:40:20,119 down freedom of speech, freedom of expression, freedom of self 626 00:40:20,159 --> 00:40:25,159 on college campuses. I'll close with this question, And like 627 00:40:26,039 --> 00:40:31,280 any halfway decent attorney, I know the answer to this question, 628 00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:34,159 but I want to get a survey from you. What 629 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:39,119 happens if we don't get this stuff under control. What 630 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:46,800 happens if after three years all of the reforms in 631 00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:49,000 place go away. 632 00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:52,840 Speaker 3: It all comes roaring back, and they will be retribution 633 00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:55,360 against the people who spoke out against it. 634 00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:56,719 Speaker 2: It will be very ugly. 635 00:40:57,599 --> 00:41:01,599 Speaker 3: I think that you will see victory relapse taken, and 636 00:41:02,039 --> 00:41:05,239 it will it will be very ugly. And I think 637 00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:11,119 that's what we're likely to see if this is only 638 00:41:11,199 --> 00:41:14,000 a three year endeavor. I think that they will believe 639 00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:16,599 they're right, and they will believe it's time for retribution, 640 00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:19,599 just like they did when Joe Biden was elected. They 641 00:41:19,639 --> 00:41:22,880 sought retribution against people who served in the Trump administration. 642 00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:28,039 And that's what's going to happen. So you know, there 643 00:41:28,119 --> 00:41:30,239 is a lot at stake in the next election. Are 644 00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:34,960 we going to continue to reform Higher ED, bring it 645 00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:39,599 some place close to where the country is, bring it 646 00:41:39,679 --> 00:41:43,920 more into the mainstream. Are we going to get Higher 647 00:41:44,039 --> 00:41:47,400 ED to stop biting the hand that feeds it and 648 00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:51,360 develop a culture of diversity of viewpoint or are. 649 00:41:51,159 --> 00:41:52,320 Speaker 2: We going to double down? 650 00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:54,840 Speaker 3: And that's really what I think is at stake for 651 00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:56,320 Higher ED in the next election. 652 00:41:56,719 --> 00:41:59,280 Speaker 1: But it's not just at stake for Higher ED. I 653 00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:02,119 truly believe that we don't get a handle on this, 654 00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:07,039 and throughout our society the same stuff happening in corporate America. 655 00:42:07,079 --> 00:42:10,840 As you mentioned before, all of our institutions embedded in 656 00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:13,480 our bureaucracy. So we don't get a handle on this. 657 00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:19,559 Right now. The Republic truly is in peril. I believe that. 658 00:42:19,599 --> 00:42:20,599 How do you feel about that? 659 00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:23,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, if you. 660 00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:29,400 Speaker 3: Wanted to destroy our country what would you do differently 661 00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:30,159 than they have done? 662 00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:36,159 Speaker 1: Yeah, good point, very good point. I think they have 663 00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:41,440 mastered the role of destruction. And again, you can only 664 00:42:41,559 --> 00:42:47,400 imagine what would happen if they are left without some 665 00:42:47,519 --> 00:42:52,400 kind of accountability over what they've done the last couple 666 00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:58,559 of generations in this country. Tough to contemplate. Thanks to 667 00:42:58,599 --> 00:43:02,920 my guest today, Cornell law professor William Jacobson, founder of 668 00:43:04,079 --> 00:43:09,679 Equal protect dot org, a project of the Legal Insurrection Foundation. 669 00:43:10,519 --> 00:43:13,400 You've been listening to another edition of The Federalist Radio Hour. 670 00:43:13,639 --> 00:43:17,320 I'm Matt Kittle, senior elections correspondent at the Federalist. We'll 671 00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:21,119 be back soon with more. Until then, stay lovers of 672 00:43:21,159 --> 00:43:39,239 freedom and anxious for the fray.