WEBVTT 1 00:00:19.960 --> 00:00:24.640 Hello, welcome to Western Sieve and today in an awesome 2 00:00:24.719 --> 00:00:28.079 author interview, I am sitting down with historian Edward Watts, 3 00:00:28.559 --> 00:00:32.600 and we are talking about his most recent book, The Romans, 4 00:00:33.280 --> 00:00:35.759 a two thousand year History. Well you can just tell 5 00:00:35.799 --> 00:00:38.119 from the title that we're going to have fun with 6 00:00:38.159 --> 00:00:39.880 this one, and by the length of the episode you 7 00:00:39.920 --> 00:00:43.240 can tell that we did. Now, there is absolutely no 8 00:00:43.359 --> 00:00:49.840 way to cover everything in this incredible volume in an hour, 9 00:00:50.119 --> 00:00:52.960 and we didn't. Really We're going to be discussing the 10 00:00:53.039 --> 00:00:56.320 Late Republic because as you probably know, that's one of 11 00:00:56.320 --> 00:01:01.320 my favorite periods of Roman history. Really talking about the 12 00:01:01.359 --> 00:01:05.480 time period from the death of Julius Caesar until the 13 00:01:05.560 --> 00:01:11.280 rise of Augustus circa thirty one thirty BCE, so a 14 00:01:11.319 --> 00:01:15.480 time period of about fifteen years or so, but a 15 00:01:15.560 --> 00:01:20.000 time period within which the history of the Western world 16 00:01:20.439 --> 00:01:24.400 changed dramatically, and it's important to bear that in mind, 17 00:01:24.400 --> 00:01:27.239 and we talk about all the reasons that this time 18 00:01:27.239 --> 00:01:30.959 period still matters, as well as maybe some ways in 19 00:01:31.000 --> 00:01:34.200 which history, as they say, doesn't repeat, but it kind 20 00:01:34.200 --> 00:01:34.840 of rhymes. 21 00:01:35.400 --> 00:01:35.560 Now. 22 00:01:35.599 --> 00:01:37.200 The book is out today, so if you'd like to 23 00:01:37.200 --> 00:01:39.400 go ahead and pick up a copy, you can click 24 00:01:39.439 --> 00:01:40.840 the link in the show notes, or you can just 25 00:01:41.319 --> 00:01:44.519 go to whatever bookseller you want to. It's available there. 26 00:01:44.599 --> 00:01:48.040 I've got all the biographical information for the author and 27 00:01:48.079 --> 00:01:51.480 everything that you might need to locate it. It is 28 00:01:51.519 --> 00:01:55.719 a phenomenal book and anyone who loves Roman history, or 29 00:01:55.799 --> 00:01:59.719 ancient history, or just history in general will love this 30 00:01:59.760 --> 00:02:02.120 book book, so I highly recommend you pick up a copy. 31 00:02:02.560 --> 00:02:05.200 And without further ado, after some quick messages here, we're 32 00:02:05.200 --> 00:02:08.400 going to get the interview with historian Edward Watts and 33 00:02:08.479 --> 00:02:14.400 his new book, The Romans. All right, welcome back. As 34 00:02:14.400 --> 00:02:17.800 I mentioned moments ago, I'm sitting down today very excited 35 00:02:18.039 --> 00:02:20.639 to talk to historian Edward Watts. We're talking about his 36 00:02:20.680 --> 00:02:23.879 most recent book, The Romans, a two thousand year history, 37 00:02:23.879 --> 00:02:28.039 which is an undertaking. Okay, that's quite a lot, but 38 00:02:28.879 --> 00:02:31.280 fans of the show will know I'll never get tired 39 00:02:31.280 --> 00:02:33.479 of talking about the Romans. Now, I'll tell you we 40 00:02:33.719 --> 00:02:35.560 were not going to have time to cover two thousand 41 00:02:35.639 --> 00:02:39.560 years of history here today, but and if you want 42 00:02:39.599 --> 00:02:41.599 to cover the whole thing, you should just click the 43 00:02:41.639 --> 00:02:44.039 link in the show notes and buy the book right now, 44 00:02:44.240 --> 00:02:47.680 which I recommend either way. But I'm going to start 45 00:02:47.759 --> 00:02:50.080 us off here by talking about a period that's of 46 00:02:50.159 --> 00:02:54.479 intense interest to me, which is the Late Republic. Let's 47 00:02:54.639 --> 00:02:58.800 flash back to mid March. Let's say March sixteenth March 48 00:02:58.840 --> 00:03:02.800 seventeenth forty four BCE. All right, so we are to 49 00:03:02.879 --> 00:03:06.800 ground our listeners. We are right after the assassination now 50 00:03:07.120 --> 00:03:10.280 of Julius Caesar, and so I wanted to start to 51 00:03:10.360 --> 00:03:16.680 ask you what was the mood in Rome like at 52 00:03:16.719 --> 00:03:20.520 that moment. This seems like a massive turning point in 53 00:03:20.719 --> 00:03:24.680 world history. You know, what was the intention of the conspirators, 54 00:03:24.719 --> 00:03:29.960 the Brutius Bruces, the Cassius Is And why how did 55 00:03:30.080 --> 00:03:33.400 Rome react to such an apocalyptic event? 56 00:03:36.039 --> 00:03:39.599 They don't know how. They're terrified, you know. I think 57 00:03:39.599 --> 00:03:41.680 this is the thing that we have to sort of 58 00:03:41.719 --> 00:03:47.080 put put in our framework. They don't know what to 59 00:03:47.159 --> 00:03:51.199 think about this, because what Caesar had represented was a 60 00:03:51.319 --> 00:03:54.599 stabilizing force in the Republic, and this was something the 61 00:03:54.639 --> 00:03:58.199 Republic desperately needed and had needed since, you know, at 62 00:03:58.280 --> 00:04:01.520 least since fifty two BC. And Pompey was brought in 63 00:04:01.599 --> 00:04:05.639 as a sole consul to calm street violence that had 64 00:04:05.639 --> 00:04:08.800 prevented a consular election, which you know, would be the 65 00:04:08.840 --> 00:04:13.039 equivalent of preventing a presidential election until after the new 66 00:04:13.120 --> 00:04:16.839 term started. So Rome had this need for you know, 67 00:04:16.879 --> 00:04:19.560 the better part of a decade, for at least this 68 00:04:19.600 --> 00:04:22.240 perceived need for a strong man to come in and 69 00:04:22.319 --> 00:04:27.360 calm things. And Caesar understood this. What the conspirators didn't 70 00:04:27.439 --> 00:04:33.000 understand was there needed to be somebody controlling things. And 71 00:04:33.040 --> 00:04:36.079 so what Brutus and Cassius thought they were doing was 72 00:04:36.120 --> 00:04:38.920 getting rid of a tyrant. What Caesar thought he was 73 00:04:38.959 --> 00:04:42.560 doing was providing a kind of a lid on the 74 00:04:42.680 --> 00:04:47.680 tensions and passions and violence in the republic in a 75 00:04:47.759 --> 00:04:50.399 fashion that allowed most of the republic to function as 76 00:04:50.439 --> 00:04:54.040 it had before, just with somebody controlling the sort of 77 00:04:54.040 --> 00:04:56.439 things that were disrupting it. And so when Brutus and 78 00:04:56.480 --> 00:05:02.240 Cassius destroyed that lid, nobody knew what this meant. So, 79 00:05:02.360 --> 00:05:05.560 you know, we have this wonderful, terrifying scene in the 80 00:05:05.600 --> 00:05:10.040 Senate where Brutus is a platonic philosopher. Brutus, you know, 81 00:05:10.560 --> 00:05:13.519 wrote a really wonderful speech that he hopes to deliver 82 00:05:13.680 --> 00:05:16.959 about the liberation of Rome from tyranny in the Senate house, 83 00:05:17.399 --> 00:05:19.519 and you know, Caesar's done to death, and Brutus gets 84 00:05:19.519 --> 00:05:23.519 ready to give his speech, and everybody runs away because 85 00:05:23.600 --> 00:05:26.680 everybody but Brutus understood that what you have, what you 86 00:05:26.759 --> 00:05:30.720 have right now is you know, anarchy, And they leave. 87 00:05:30.839 --> 00:05:33.879 And the Senate was meeting in the Theater of Pompey, 88 00:05:33.959 --> 00:05:36.519 and right, you know, right near to this is a 89 00:05:36.560 --> 00:05:39.759 space where gladiators are getting ready to perform. They see 90 00:05:39.759 --> 00:05:43.279 the senators running, the gladiators start running. Everybody then sees 91 00:05:43.319 --> 00:05:47.160 senators and gladiators running, and everybody starts panicking, and so 92 00:05:47.360 --> 00:05:50.360 on the fifteenth nobody knows what to make of this, 93 00:05:50.519 --> 00:05:53.399 even Mark Antony, who's generally a pretty brave guy. He 94 00:05:53.560 --> 00:05:57.000 runs to his house and hides, and then Brutus and 95 00:05:57.040 --> 00:06:00.800 Cassie has go climb up the capitol one him and 96 00:06:00.959 --> 00:06:03.680 get gladiators to defend themselves because they don't know what 97 00:06:03.759 --> 00:06:07.920 to do either. So on the sixteenth, the seventeenth, the eighteenth, 98 00:06:07.959 --> 00:06:10.560 all the way probably through the twentieth, all of these 99 00:06:10.560 --> 00:06:13.839 figures are getting their bearings and trying to figure out 100 00:06:13.959 --> 00:06:18.360 what comes next. You know. So Anthony has a play Lepidus, 101 00:06:18.399 --> 00:06:21.240 who has has control of the only military force in 102 00:06:21.279 --> 00:06:24.079 the city of Rome. He seizes the forum with his 103 00:06:24.199 --> 00:06:27.839 military force, Brutus and Cassius have to look down from 104 00:06:27.879 --> 00:06:30.399 the Capitol line hill on this military force in the 105 00:06:30.399 --> 00:06:33.959 middle of the forum. And over those few days you 106 00:06:34.040 --> 00:06:37.560 have negotiations where each person is trying to figure out, 107 00:06:37.600 --> 00:06:40.439 now that Caesar's gone, how does this work? You know, 108 00:06:40.560 --> 00:06:44.480 is there still a republic? Is Caesar a tyrant? Is 109 00:06:44.480 --> 00:06:48.519 Caesar a hero? Are the things that Caesar did legal? 110 00:06:49.040 --> 00:06:51.399 Are they illegal? If they're illegal, what does that mean? 111 00:06:51.480 --> 00:06:55.120 Because everybody in Rome has offices that they got through Caesar, 112 00:06:55.480 --> 00:06:58.319 so the government would effectively be illegal even if you 113 00:06:58.319 --> 00:07:01.199 get rid of Caesar. And this all has to play 114 00:07:01.240 --> 00:07:04.560 out very quickly, in real time in a city of 115 00:07:04.600 --> 00:07:08.519 a million people, where everybody is totally scared about what's 116 00:07:08.560 --> 00:07:10.920 going to come next. So this is a moment. You 117 00:07:10.959 --> 00:07:12.879 have your finger on, a moment in Roman history that 118 00:07:13.000 --> 00:07:17.439 is super significant and also I think terrifying because it 119 00:07:17.480 --> 00:07:18.920 could go in any direction. 120 00:07:20.519 --> 00:07:23.879 Yeah, and there's a couple of things to talk about here. 121 00:07:24.079 --> 00:07:28.040 But before we get into sort of the aftermath of 122 00:07:28.079 --> 00:07:31.120 this a little bit further, I think, especially for today 123 00:07:31.199 --> 00:07:35.079 and for anyone who's listening to this years from now. 124 00:07:35.439 --> 00:07:39.120 We are recording this in early October of twenty twenty five, 125 00:07:39.480 --> 00:07:44.040 there has been a fairly dramatic uptick of political violence, 126 00:07:45.040 --> 00:07:47.439 particularly in the United States where I am recording this. 127 00:07:47.839 --> 00:07:51.639 You know, Charlie Kirk was assassinated, was murdered, whichever phrase 128 00:07:51.639 --> 00:07:54.360 you want to use, you know, several weeks ago. That 129 00:07:54.480 --> 00:07:56.480 has changed a lot of the way we think about this. 130 00:07:57.920 --> 00:08:01.879 Why Why was that strong necessary? Why was that Caesar 131 00:08:01.959 --> 00:08:05.240 so necessary to keep that lid on that pot? Why 132 00:08:05.279 --> 00:08:10.120 had political violence become so endemic in particularly in the 133 00:08:10.160 --> 00:08:13.519 city of Rome, right, Like what was going on that 134 00:08:13.560 --> 00:08:16.720 had led to that necessity that Brutus didn't understand? 135 00:08:17.680 --> 00:08:21.160 Yeah, So I think there's a couple of really interesting 136 00:08:21.560 --> 00:08:24.600 works that Cicero writes in the period between like fifty 137 00:08:24.600 --> 00:08:27.319 four and fifty one BC. So one of them is 138 00:08:27.519 --> 00:08:30.000 on the Republic, which is a very famous work that 139 00:08:30.120 --> 00:08:34.200 unfortunately we know primarily through quotations of like Augustine. We 140 00:08:34.240 --> 00:08:36.759 don't have the full thing, but the quotations are really 141 00:08:36.840 --> 00:08:41.440 robust and really important and really really interesting. And then 142 00:08:41.480 --> 00:08:44.440 he also writes a defense of Milo, who is a 143 00:08:44.559 --> 00:08:48.399 political basically a political figure who also has a street gang, 144 00:08:48.919 --> 00:08:52.639 and the defense of Milo is a defense for Milo's 145 00:08:52.679 --> 00:08:57.200 assassination of another politician named Clodius, where Cicero says, in essence, 146 00:08:57.799 --> 00:09:01.679 Clodius is so violent and so out of control that 147 00:09:01.799 --> 00:09:05.159 the state, the state can't do anything to regulate his behavior, 148 00:09:05.759 --> 00:09:09.000 and so Milo assassinated him. Good for Milo, right, Milo 149 00:09:09.120 --> 00:09:11.360 is a hero because he did what the state couldn't do. 150 00:09:12.320 --> 00:09:15.480 In on the Republic, though, what Cicero says is, you know, 151 00:09:15.519 --> 00:09:19.120 a republic that's governed by violence, it never actually can 152 00:09:19.200 --> 00:09:23.440 be a republic. And so and so he actually speaks 153 00:09:23.559 --> 00:09:26.039 in both he's in a sense, speaking two sides of 154 00:09:26.080 --> 00:09:29.559 the same argument in the Milo text and on the Republic, 155 00:09:30.320 --> 00:09:32.600 and in both of those he's talking about this moment 156 00:09:32.639 --> 00:09:35.399 where Pompey is brought in to serve as that sole 157 00:09:35.480 --> 00:09:40.279 consul to regulate the violence that unfolded after the Clodius 158 00:09:40.279 --> 00:09:43.919 and Milo fighting. And what Cicero says, and I just 159 00:09:43.960 --> 00:09:47.320 reread this a couple of days ago, what Cicero says 160 00:09:47.320 --> 00:09:51.600 in those texts that I've never realized before is ultimately 161 00:09:51.960 --> 00:09:56.080 what's going on is everybody is afraid. So if you 162 00:09:56.120 --> 00:09:59.000 read the pro miilone, what Cicero is saying. He begins 163 00:09:59.039 --> 00:10:02.159 by saying, although I I'm afraid, and then throughout this 164 00:10:02.320 --> 00:10:05.600 speech is this whole sort of legacy, this whole sort 165 00:10:05.600 --> 00:10:11.039 of story of everybody from Cicero to regular people to Pompey, 166 00:10:11.559 --> 00:10:15.679 all being afraid. And I think this is where the 167 00:10:15.720 --> 00:10:19.840 moment worry in right now resonates so clearly with what's 168 00:10:19.840 --> 00:10:21.919 going on in Rome in that period from fifty two 169 00:10:21.960 --> 00:10:27.000 to forty four. They're afraid. And when you're afraid, you 170 00:10:27.080 --> 00:10:31.080 don't think rationally. You can't think rationally because what you're 171 00:10:31.080 --> 00:10:33.879 doing is you're sort of engaged in this decade of 172 00:10:34.000 --> 00:10:36.679 fight or flight where you're just looking for something that's 173 00:10:36.679 --> 00:10:40.639 going to stabilize your reality and make you feel comfortable. 174 00:10:41.200 --> 00:10:45.279 And you know, until really the Kirk assassination, I never 175 00:10:45.399 --> 00:10:48.960 understood that. I never read Sister that way. But I 176 00:10:49.039 --> 00:10:52.480 think that this is what Brutus didn't understand. Right. Brutus, 177 00:10:52.519 --> 00:10:55.480 I think, did not feel that fear. What Brutus felt 178 00:10:55.480 --> 00:10:58.759 was something very different. You know, we have these accounts 179 00:10:58.879 --> 00:11:02.399 written by the Great or an Appian who talks about 180 00:11:02.399 --> 00:11:06.080 how Brutus is a descendant of, you know, the Brutus 181 00:11:06.120 --> 00:11:09.039 who founded the Republic. He's also a descendant of a 182 00:11:09.080 --> 00:11:12.879 man named Ahala who had massacre, had killed somebody who 183 00:11:12.919 --> 00:11:14.879 was trying to seize power in the Republic in the 184 00:11:14.919 --> 00:11:19.639 fifth century BC, and Brutus's political brand is both Brutus 185 00:11:19.639 --> 00:11:22.559 the founder of the Republic and Ahala, the assassin who 186 00:11:22.600 --> 00:11:25.639 saved it. And so what Brutus thinks he's doing is 187 00:11:25.639 --> 00:11:29.039 is performing a kind of obligation that he has as 188 00:11:29.080 --> 00:11:32.919 a member of this family to preserve freedom, to preserve liberty. 189 00:11:33.159 --> 00:11:37.120 Brutus doesn't understand that for most Romans, freedom and liberty 190 00:11:37.240 --> 00:11:41.960 in forty four BC means terror, it means fear. And 191 00:11:42.320 --> 00:11:44.759 I think that's the thing that you know, I've been 192 00:11:44.759 --> 00:11:47.519 reading these texts forever. This is something that really clicked 193 00:11:47.519 --> 00:11:50.679 for me only in the last few weeks. Yeah. 194 00:11:50.720 --> 00:11:52.720 One of the things that I think is so interesting 195 00:11:53.120 --> 00:11:55.639 about this and I don't want to, you know, Pote 196 00:11:55.759 --> 00:11:59.440 point blame, you know, to a civilization that you know, 197 00:11:59.440 --> 00:12:01.919 the Republic, but you know, about two thousand years ago 198 00:12:02.000 --> 00:12:04.480 at this point, we're getting close to I suppose an 199 00:12:04.480 --> 00:12:05.399 actual anniversary. 200 00:12:05.440 --> 00:12:06.120 But the. 201 00:12:08.039 --> 00:12:11.559 I'm always pretty critical of the Roman government during this 202 00:12:11.639 --> 00:12:15.600 time period. It seems to me that in particular, the 203 00:12:15.639 --> 00:12:19.480 Senate is just woefully not up to the challenge of 204 00:12:19.559 --> 00:12:23.120 the changes that have happened in the Republic, you know, 205 00:12:23.159 --> 00:12:26.080 you know, really since the Second Punic War, right, that 206 00:12:27.000 --> 00:12:30.600 it is in so many ways a backward looking institution, 207 00:12:31.200 --> 00:12:35.279 and that that institution has failed to change in the 208 00:12:35.320 --> 00:12:39.080 way that might have prevented so many of these things 209 00:12:39.320 --> 00:12:41.879 from happening. I don't know what do you think about that, 210 00:12:41.919 --> 00:12:44.759 because I'm not a historian, but that's always been my perspective. 211 00:12:45.919 --> 00:12:47.960 Yeah, I mean my sense in writing this book, what 212 00:12:48.000 --> 00:12:51.120 I realized is you have like, in a way, the 213 00:12:51.159 --> 00:12:54.080 greatest generation of Romans, right, all of the guys that 214 00:12:54.120 --> 00:12:55.919 you think of as like in the pantheon of the 215 00:12:55.960 --> 00:13:02.480 most famous Romans of all time, Caesar, Cicero, Pompey, Cato, Crassis. 216 00:13:03.080 --> 00:13:05.600 They're all basically the same age, right, They're all born 217 00:13:05.639 --> 00:13:08.399 within ten years of each other, and they all were 218 00:13:08.559 --> 00:13:13.919 basically young adults beginning their political career during this civil 219 00:13:13.960 --> 00:13:17.080 war that erupts in Rome in the eighties BC. And 220 00:13:17.399 --> 00:13:19.639 all of them were affected in different ways by this 221 00:13:19.720 --> 00:13:23.840 civil war. Caesar was very badly affected, you know, he 222 00:13:23.960 --> 00:13:26.879 was asked by a dictator to divorce his wife, his 223 00:13:26.960 --> 00:13:32.799 dad's property was confiscated. Even Pompey, who fought for Sola 224 00:13:32.919 --> 00:13:35.039 in the civil war who fought for the winning side. 225 00:13:35.200 --> 00:13:38.120 Pompey is also very badly affected because he's you know, 226 00:13:38.240 --> 00:13:41.000 forced to do things like commit massacres and kill people. 227 00:13:41.600 --> 00:13:45.720 And he gets the nickname the adolescent Butcher because of 228 00:13:45.759 --> 00:13:48.639 his violence as a servant of Sola. And so all 229 00:13:48.679 --> 00:13:53.039 of these people come out of the Sivian experience thinking 230 00:13:53.440 --> 00:13:55.799 that the worst thing that could happen is to go 231 00:13:55.919 --> 00:13:59.639 back to that, but totally disagreeing with each other about 232 00:13:59.639 --> 00:14:02.840 how you prevent your how you prevent the state from 233 00:14:02.840 --> 00:14:05.480 going back to that. And none of them, and I 234 00:14:05.480 --> 00:14:08.039 think this is the crucial thing. All of them don't 235 00:14:08.080 --> 00:14:10.720 want civil war, but none of them trust the republic 236 00:14:10.759 --> 00:14:13.360 to be strong enough to prevent it. And so every 237 00:14:13.360 --> 00:14:15.279 single one of them is thinking, you know, when push 238 00:14:15.279 --> 00:14:19.480 comes to shove, the state cannot protect me, and so 239 00:14:19.600 --> 00:14:22.320 I need to take care of myself and my interests. 240 00:14:22.559 --> 00:14:25.200 And I want a republic. I don't want a civil war. 241 00:14:25.279 --> 00:14:27.279 I don't want a dictatorship. I don't want to repeat 242 00:14:27.279 --> 00:14:30.399 what Sola did. But I don't believe that the state's 243 00:14:30.399 --> 00:14:32.399 strong enough to keep me safe, and so I got 244 00:14:32.440 --> 00:14:34.320 to look out for me. And if it comes down 245 00:14:34.399 --> 00:14:37.080 to the best interests of the state or looking out 246 00:14:37.120 --> 00:14:39.080 for me. I'm going to look out for me. And 247 00:14:39.080 --> 00:14:41.879 this is how I think it all unfolds. None of 248 00:14:41.919 --> 00:14:47.120 these people wanted civil war, but their own lack and 249 00:14:47.120 --> 00:14:50.519 their own inability to have faith in the institutions of 250 00:14:50.519 --> 00:14:52.840 the state. And I think it's a reasonable you know, 251 00:14:53.080 --> 00:14:56.879 it's a reasonable fear they have, but their inability to 252 00:14:56.919 --> 00:15:00.240 have faith in the institutions of the state undermine that 253 00:15:00.279 --> 00:15:02.480 state to such a degree that they end up falling 254 00:15:02.480 --> 00:15:04.799 into civil war even though they don't want it. And 255 00:15:04.840 --> 00:15:06.360 so I think when you look at what the Senate 256 00:15:06.480 --> 00:15:10.200 is doing, the Senate is engaging in this very complicated 257 00:15:10.759 --> 00:15:13.519 process of trying to figure out, like how can we 258 00:15:13.600 --> 00:15:16.600 work within the confines of the state but also not 259 00:15:16.679 --> 00:15:20.320 give up so much that we personally are exposed. And 260 00:15:20.639 --> 00:15:24.200 I don't think any political system can really work that way. 261 00:15:24.600 --> 00:15:26.919 You know, in a sense, what you're doing is you're 262 00:15:26.960 --> 00:15:29.440 sort of lying to each other that you believe the 263 00:15:29.440 --> 00:15:33.039 political system is strong enough to survive, when in reality, 264 00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:36.320 you're just going through the motions of sort of following 265 00:15:36.360 --> 00:15:39.080 the rules until those rules look like they might undercut 266 00:15:39.080 --> 00:15:41.440 your ability to look out for your own interests. And 267 00:15:41.440 --> 00:15:44.080 then you disregard those rules. And so I think this 268 00:15:44.120 --> 00:15:50.919 is why the Senate has that very real sense of 269 00:15:51.039 --> 00:15:55.240 disconnection from the real problems it needs to solve, because 270 00:15:55.279 --> 00:15:58.279 in a way, they don't believe the Senate is capable 271 00:15:58.320 --> 00:16:00.639 of solving those problems in a way that's finding in 272 00:16:00.720 --> 00:16:03.679 a way that's going to actually restrain enemies from doing 273 00:16:03.679 --> 00:16:05.320 things to them. 274 00:16:05.559 --> 00:16:07.600 Yeah, and I think, you know, when when I think 275 00:16:07.600 --> 00:16:10.320 about this era, I'm always I always have to remind 276 00:16:10.320 --> 00:16:13.559 myself that the members of the Senate and the aristocracy, 277 00:16:14.080 --> 00:16:17.080 you know, they they had been hit very hard by 278 00:16:17.159 --> 00:16:20.840 the civil wars between Marius and Sola, and particularly the proscriptions. 279 00:16:20.879 --> 00:16:23.120 You know, there weren't you know, they weren't going after 280 00:16:23.159 --> 00:16:25.679 the plebs, and in the proscription lists, you know, that 281 00:16:26.360 --> 00:16:28.919 was very targeted. So I can understand to a large 282 00:16:28.919 --> 00:16:33.559 extent why the Senate would feel the need to be defensive, 283 00:16:33.879 --> 00:16:36.240 right for themselves and for their for the really their 284 00:16:36.320 --> 00:16:40.360 almost their lives, right, certainly their lives and their property. 285 00:16:40.399 --> 00:16:43.360 Maybe in a secondary standpoint, but then of course you 286 00:16:43.480 --> 00:16:47.840 have this, you know the curses, right, you have this 287 00:16:47.840 --> 00:16:50.519 this ladder that young Romans are supposed to climb and 288 00:16:50.799 --> 00:16:55.440 it's it's intended to be so competitive, and you're intended 289 00:16:55.480 --> 00:16:58.240 to attack your your enemies, and that has worked to 290 00:16:58.320 --> 00:17:00.519 a large extent with the Romans, but then it works 291 00:17:00.519 --> 00:17:03.480 till it doesn't, right, and now we're in a situation 292 00:17:03.600 --> 00:17:07.359 where reform just doesn't seem to be a possibility anymore. 293 00:17:07.640 --> 00:17:10.680 And that gets us then to forty four BCE, right, 294 00:17:11.119 --> 00:17:15.359 And I just can't understand. Maybe there is no answer 295 00:17:15.400 --> 00:17:18.680 to this, but I can't understand what was not honestly 296 00:17:18.759 --> 00:17:23.240 going through the minds of Brutus and Cassius, because it 297 00:17:23.279 --> 00:17:26.119 seems to me that they didn't have a plan for 298 00:17:26.240 --> 00:17:28.119 what the next step was going to be, you know, 299 00:17:28.319 --> 00:17:30.599 or maybe it was just going to reset. I mean, 300 00:17:30.960 --> 00:17:33.440 what were they thinking was going to happen to the 301 00:17:33.440 --> 00:17:36.720 extent that we know it after the assassination of Caesar. 302 00:17:37.720 --> 00:17:40.279 Yeah, I mean, to me, Cassius is something of a mystery. 303 00:17:40.880 --> 00:17:44.799 I don't I don't feel I understand what's driving Cassius. 304 00:17:45.079 --> 00:17:47.440 With Brutus. I think I do understand what's going on, 305 00:17:47.559 --> 00:17:49.839 you know. I think with Brutus there is this this 306 00:17:50.000 --> 00:17:54.839 very theoretical sense of obligation, and there's actually a quote 307 00:17:54.880 --> 00:17:59.160 where I think it's Cato says that, you know, Brutus lives. 308 00:17:59.480 --> 00:18:02.880 Brutus lives in the Republic of Plato, but cannot bring 309 00:18:02.960 --> 00:18:06.599 himself to understand he actually lives, in reality, in the 310 00:18:06.640 --> 00:18:10.640 Republic of Romulus. Right, I butchered that quote, But that's 311 00:18:10.680 --> 00:18:13.839 the idea. Right, Brutus lives in this theoretical world where 312 00:18:13.880 --> 00:18:16.839 liberty is a thing, it's a concept, is a concept 313 00:18:16.839 --> 00:18:18.799 that you can bring to bear in the real world. 314 00:18:18.960 --> 00:18:22.039 And in the lead up to Caesar's assassination, Appian tells 315 00:18:22.119 --> 00:18:24.559 us that we have all of this graffiti that starts 316 00:18:24.559 --> 00:18:28.440 appearing around the city saying things like, you know, on 317 00:18:28.480 --> 00:18:34.960 a statue of the ancestor Brutus, your progeny is not 318 00:18:35.039 --> 00:18:38.079 living up to your legacy, and on the statue of 319 00:18:38.519 --> 00:18:42.119 Brutal and on monuments associated with Brutus the assassin, and 320 00:18:42.200 --> 00:18:45.240 stuff like, you're not connected to the things that you 321 00:18:45.279 --> 00:18:47.880 said you ought to connect to. And so Brutus feels 322 00:18:47.880 --> 00:18:51.279 a lot of pressure, both because he has this legacy 323 00:18:51.319 --> 00:18:53.759 to uphold, but also because Brutus thinks in this sort 324 00:18:53.759 --> 00:18:58.240 of theoretical sense where liberty is good, right, liberty is 325 00:18:58.279 --> 00:19:01.680 what we want. His first induction to Roman political life 326 00:19:01.759 --> 00:19:04.240 is a series of coins he issues in fifty four BC, 327 00:19:04.880 --> 00:19:07.039 and one of them, on the front has Lady Liberty 328 00:19:07.039 --> 00:19:10.279 and it says libertos and on the back is Brutus 329 00:19:10.680 --> 00:19:15.480 with his lictors right, the ancestor Brutus. And so Brutus 330 00:19:15.599 --> 00:19:18.960 very much believes in this concept of liberty. It's in 331 00:19:18.960 --> 00:19:22.480 a census personal brand, but it's also his conviction. And 332 00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:24.839 I think the problem with Brutus is there isn't this 333 00:19:24.960 --> 00:19:28.920 understanding that you know, what the real world is messy, 334 00:19:29.000 --> 00:19:32.599 it's not Plato's, it's not a Platonic form, and you 335 00:19:33.599 --> 00:19:36.519 need to understand that liberty means different things to different 336 00:19:36.519 --> 00:19:40.559 people in different contexts, and what you claim you're doing, 337 00:19:41.039 --> 00:19:44.400 it's going to resonate differently to everybody who's not you, 338 00:19:44.920 --> 00:19:47.519 because everybody who's not you lives in the real world 339 00:19:47.680 --> 00:19:51.119 and you live in this sort of nice, platonic, sort 340 00:19:51.160 --> 00:19:54.960 of conceptual world. And so I think that's the issue 341 00:19:54.960 --> 00:19:58.839 with Brutus. With Cassius again, like I find Cassius a 342 00:19:58.880 --> 00:20:02.400 difficult person to under stands, and I can't claim that 343 00:20:02.480 --> 00:20:04.680 I really get what's going on there. But with Brutus, 344 00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:08.319 I think, you know, I think he just doesn't know 345 00:20:09.599 --> 00:20:15.519 that the concept that he embraces so firmly, it's too abstract, 346 00:20:16.119 --> 00:20:18.920 and nobody understands what he actually means in reality when 347 00:20:18.960 --> 00:20:19.920 he's saying those things. 348 00:20:21.359 --> 00:20:24.160 Yeah, I think sometimes when I when I think about Brutus, 349 00:20:24.200 --> 00:20:28.279 I'm a little bit reminded, maybe even in contemporary times 350 00:20:28.519 --> 00:20:31.240 in the United States, of some decisions I'll read recently 351 00:20:31.240 --> 00:20:35.240 from from the Supreme Court, which are incredibly high flown 352 00:20:35.240 --> 00:20:40.000 and incredibly legalistic, but seem at times to just ignore 353 00:20:40.119 --> 00:20:44.680 the obvious practical implications of what is actually going on. 354 00:20:45.440 --> 00:20:48.240 So if we're looking at like modern parallels, sometimes I 355 00:20:48.279 --> 00:20:50.759 look at some of those decisions and I say, like, well, 356 00:20:50.759 --> 00:20:54.200 Brutus could have written that. I mean, like, that's that's 357 00:20:54.240 --> 00:20:57.000 that's something you write as the ship is going down. 358 00:20:57.079 --> 00:20:58.680 But and I don't think it is, by the way, 359 00:20:59.119 --> 00:21:01.599 and we can go into that. But so that's one half, right, 360 00:21:01.920 --> 00:21:04.680 One half is you know, Brutus and Cassius and the conspirators. 361 00:21:05.039 --> 00:21:08.240 But then we got the other half. We've got the Caesareans. Okay, 362 00:21:08.240 --> 00:21:10.720 we've got the people who had, as you pointed out, 363 00:21:11.279 --> 00:21:15.839 benefited from Julius Caesar from the dictatorship. And we're going 364 00:21:15.880 --> 00:21:17.599 to talk about some of them talking about Mark Antony 365 00:21:17.640 --> 00:21:20.240 and so on and so forth. So where are they 366 00:21:20.400 --> 00:21:23.359 at immediately after this assassination? 367 00:21:24.480 --> 00:21:27.759 So okay, So I think that the issue that we 368 00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:29.880 have is that for a lot of these Romans there's 369 00:21:29.920 --> 00:21:34.640 this sense a different sense of what freedom represents and 370 00:21:34.680 --> 00:21:38.640 what a republic represents. And so for Brutus, freedom is 371 00:21:38.680 --> 00:21:42.039 basically a binary. You're either free or you're not. For Caesar, 372 00:21:42.160 --> 00:21:44.880 I think a way to understand it is Caesar would 373 00:21:44.880 --> 00:21:46.880 say that freedom is in a sense something that exists 374 00:21:46.880 --> 00:21:49.440 on a spectrum in the way that we have kind 375 00:21:49.480 --> 00:21:53.240 of a modern way of measuring democracy, where you don't 376 00:21:53.279 --> 00:21:55.960 have any pure democracy and you don't have any pure 377 00:21:56.119 --> 00:21:58.920 authoritarian state. You just have a spectrum that runs kind 378 00:21:58.920 --> 00:22:02.400 of from like North Korea to Sweden, and you know, 379 00:22:02.440 --> 00:22:04.880 and your state can become more or less free in 380 00:22:04.920 --> 00:22:08.720 that context, and those choices are made for reasons. And 381 00:22:08.759 --> 00:22:12.680 I think what Caesar believed is the republic as it 382 00:22:12.759 --> 00:22:17.279 existed in the fifties didn't function, and so Caesar undertakes 383 00:22:17.319 --> 00:22:21.079 a lot of significant reforms in the period after the 384 00:22:21.079 --> 00:22:23.839 Battle of Farceless and forty eight, you know, and through 385 00:22:23.880 --> 00:22:25.839 the fighting in near like forty six and forty five. 386 00:22:26.079 --> 00:22:29.319 But what Caesar is trying to do is serve as 387 00:22:29.359 --> 00:22:35.359 that lid that controls passions and fear. And then because 388 00:22:35.480 --> 00:22:38.720 these passions and fears are controlled, you can start rebuilding 389 00:22:38.799 --> 00:22:42.160 elements of the republic to make it function better. And 390 00:22:42.200 --> 00:22:45.480 so it's less free. It's moved towards less free on 391 00:22:45.519 --> 00:22:48.880 the spectrum, but it is still a republic. Citizen rights 392 00:22:48.920 --> 00:22:52.920 still matter. They're brought responsibility citizens have to the state, 393 00:22:52.960 --> 00:22:55.359 and the obligation of the state has the citizens. Those 394 00:22:55.400 --> 00:22:57.920 things still exist, and what Caesar wants to do is 395 00:22:57.960 --> 00:23:00.480 to make sure that some of the stuff that had 396 00:23:00.480 --> 00:23:04.359 gotten gummed up for the last hundred years starts happening again. 397 00:23:04.519 --> 00:23:08.279 You know, colonies in places like Corinth and Carthage that 398 00:23:08.440 --> 00:23:11.559 should have cities, but the Romans destroyed them one hundred 399 00:23:11.640 --> 00:23:16.400 years before. You know, things like the codification of laws 400 00:23:16.599 --> 00:23:19.680 and the sort of regulation and rationalization of the law 401 00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:23.799