1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,279 Speaker 1: Okay, here's something to think about. What if the most 2 00:00:02,279 --> 00:00:05,599 crucial discovery in human history, I mean, something that fundamentally 3 00:00:05,599 --> 00:00:08,039 rewrites our place in the universe, way bigger than the 4 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:12,839 atomic bomb, was deliberately locked away, hidden from everyone by 5 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:17,440 the absolute highest levels of power in the country. Imagine 6 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:20,960 a secret government inside the government, formed specifically to guard 7 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:24,399 a truth that would just shatter everything we thought we knew, 8 00:00:24,519 --> 00:00:28,039 and they kept that secret ruthlessly for almost forty years. 9 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:31,679 Speaker 2: That's exactly the territory we're exploring today, this whole deep dive. 10 00:00:32,119 --> 00:00:35,840 It centered on the claims, the really explosive claims inside 11 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,479 those alleged Majestic twelve documents. We're going to unpack how 12 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:42,640 this supposed covert US committee got started apparently back in 13 00:00:42,759 --> 00:00:45,679 nineteen forty seven by presidential order, and their job wasn't 14 00:00:45,679 --> 00:00:49,799 just grabbing crash tech, but actually managing recovered well non 15 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:53,359 human entities. But even more than the claims themselves, we 16 00:00:53,399 --> 00:00:56,560 need to look at the campaign around them, this incredibly complex, 17 00:00:56,640 --> 00:01:00,640 decades long effort of deception, basically the weaponization of information. 18 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:03,759 We've got sources that detail who was supposedly on this committee, 19 00:01:03,799 --> 00:01:06,959 what they found, and then this aggressive sometimes frankly ruthless 20 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:11,079 campaigned by intelligence agencies to leak bikes, control the narrative, 21 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:13,280 and ultimately discredit the whole thing. 22 00:01:13,359 --> 00:01:15,879 Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, let's definitely unpack this because this feels less 23 00:01:15,879 --> 00:01:18,480 about you know, little green men and flying saucers, and 24 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:22,400 much more about how governments actually work, secrecy, manipulation of 25 00:01:22,439 --> 00:01:24,719 what people know. If even a fraction of this story 26 00:01:24,719 --> 00:01:27,000 holds water, it tells you so much about the modern state. 27 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:29,719 So let's start right at the beginning summer of forty seven, 28 00:01:29,799 --> 00:01:31,920 the summer everything supposedly changed. 29 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:35,159 Speaker 2: Right, and you absolutely cannot understand nineteen forty seven without 30 00:01:35,159 --> 00:01:37,920 the context. The world was just crawling out of World 31 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:41,519 War Two and boom straight into the Cold War, massive paranoia. 32 00:01:41,719 --> 00:01:43,920 The US had the bomb yet, but the fear, the 33 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:46,840 constant fear, was that the Soviets would get it, or 34 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:51,280 maybe already had some advance captured Nazi tech. Nuclear secrecy 35 00:01:51,319 --> 00:01:54,079 that was everything national security bedrock to the military. The 36 00:01:54,079 --> 00:01:57,280 intelligence guys. They were stanning the skies constantly, but they 37 00:01:57,319 --> 00:01:59,920 weren't looking for aliens. They were looking for Soviet bomber, 38 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:05,799 advanced German rockets, anything fast, silent, unknown that was automatically 39 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:07,760 seen as a potential existential threat. 40 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:10,719 Speaker 1: And it's right into that pressure cooker environment that the 41 00:02:10,759 --> 00:02:13,439 first really big public sighting happens. Ye and that shifts 42 00:02:13,479 --> 00:02:17,039 the conversation, doesn't it, from just military threats to something else. 43 00:02:17,319 --> 00:02:21,639 Speaker 2: Absolutely, that was the catalyst. June twenty fourth, nineteen forty seven, 44 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:26,280 civilian pilot Kenneth Arnold. He's flying near Mount Rainier in Washington. 45 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:31,360 He sees nine objects moving incredibly fast. His description like 46 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:34,000 a saucer skipping over water. That's what gave us the 47 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:38,599 term flying saucer. Now, the military, they'd apparently received hundreds 48 00:02:38,599 --> 00:02:41,879 of reports before Arnold, but his story it blew up 49 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:44,400 in the media. It forced the military to actually talk 50 00:02:44,439 --> 00:02:47,520 about it publicly for the first time. Officially, they sounded 51 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:51,199 confused internally though, rowing alarm they were maybe facing something 52 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:52,439 they just couldn't identify. 53 00:02:52,599 --> 00:02:54,919 Speaker 1: And that sort of vague alarm turned into something much 54 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:57,479 more concrete just two weeks later, right when it went 55 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:00,560 from just seeing something weird to actually having some crash, 56 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:01,360 something physical. 57 00:03:01,479 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 2: That's the pivot point. July seventh, nineteen forty seven, an 58 00:03:04,719 --> 00:03:07,319 object comes down in the New Mexico Desert near Roswell. 59 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:10,560 The first official story straight from the Army Air Forces base. 60 00:03:10,599 --> 00:03:13,240 There was amazing they'd recovered a flying disc. 61 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 1: Wow, they actually said that initially. 62 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:18,080 Speaker 2: They did, But that story lasted maybe a few hours 63 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:20,800 before it was yanked back hard, replaced with the cover 64 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:24,680 story we all know now, just a weather balloon misidentified. 65 00:03:25,199 --> 00:03:28,199 Nothing to see here. But according to these alleged documents, 66 00:03:28,199 --> 00:03:32,599 the MJ twelve briefing, the truth was well extraordinary. They 67 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:36,080 described what they found as a metallic disc shaped craft 68 00:03:36,439 --> 00:03:39,840 maybe thirty feet across. What really through the engineer is apparently, 69 00:03:39,879 --> 00:03:43,280 was how it was built. No visible seams, no rivets, 70 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:47,039 no obvious engine or propulsion system, and the metal itself 71 00:03:47,639 --> 00:03:50,759 some kind of alloy they couldn't identify, couldn't replicate. The 72 00:03:50,759 --> 00:03:54,080 internal assessment was pretty blunt. This was engineering beyond any 73 00:03:54,159 --> 00:03:54,960 country on Earth. 74 00:03:55,039 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 1: That detail that no seams, no rivets. I always find 75 00:03:57,840 --> 00:03:59,639 that the most compelling bit. It just doesn't sound like 76 00:03:59,639 --> 00:04:01,919 any secret plane we would build, you know, yeah, even 77 00:04:01,919 --> 00:04:04,479 a captured enemy one. But the really huge part of 78 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:06,919 the recovery, according to these documents, came a bit later. 79 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, the focus shifted pretty quick from just tech to biology. 80 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:13,120 The briefing claims that aerial recon a few days after 81 00:04:13,159 --> 00:04:15,680 the crash found something else about two miles east of 82 00:04:15,759 --> 00:04:20,680 the main wreckage, four small human like beings. Looks like 83 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:22,480 they'd been thrown clear before it hit. 84 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 1: Human like beings. Okay, give us the details on these. 85 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:26,279 What do they call it ebes? 86 00:04:26,639 --> 00:04:31,399 Speaker 2: Right, extraterrestrial biological entities. That was the classification supposedly given 87 00:04:31,399 --> 00:04:34,360 by a special scientific team led by a doctor Detlov Bronc. 88 00:04:34,759 --> 00:04:38,240 The sources described them pretty specifically, about four feet tall, 89 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:42,680 humanoid shape, but with these really large, out of proportioned heads, 90 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:47,079 no hair at all, grayish skin, and the status well, 91 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:49,800 according to the documents, three were dead when they found them, 92 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:53,040 impact killed them. The fourth was alive but died shortly 93 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:57,680 after recovery. So the military's absolute top priority became twofold one, 94 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:00,879 get every scrap of physical evidence out of there fast, 95 00:05:01,399 --> 00:05:04,959 and two hammer home that weather balloon story, make it stick, 96 00:05:05,199 --> 00:05:07,240 discredit anyone who said they saw something different. 97 00:05:07,879 --> 00:05:11,360 Speaker 1: So this alleged recovery, the craft and the bodies, that's 98 00:05:11,399 --> 00:05:13,399 the trigger the thing that forced their hand and made 99 00:05:13,439 --> 00:05:15,480 them think we need something permanent to handle it. 100 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:18,639 Speaker 2: Precisely, they realized, okay, this isn't just a one off, 101 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:22,079 weird event, this might be ongoing. The sheer scale of 102 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:24,399 what they thought they'd found demanded a whole new level 103 00:05:24,439 --> 00:05:27,959 of secrecy, a permanent structure. And so, according to the documents, 104 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:31,079 on September twenty fourth, nineteen forty seven, President Schruman signs 105 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:34,720 this Executive Order zero nine two four four seven, and 106 00:05:34,759 --> 00:05:38,079 that order creates Majestic twelve MJ twelve. And this wasn't 107 00:05:38,079 --> 00:05:41,160 just some temporary task force. It was designed as the shadowy, 108 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:44,800 permanent fixture. Right at the top twelve members the absolute 109 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:49,560 elite scientists, top military leaders, key intelligence figures. And they 110 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:53,040 were given security clearances supposedly higher than anything else that existed. 111 00:05:53,079 --> 00:05:54,800 Speaker 1: And what was the core mission? What are these twelve 112 00:05:54,879 --> 00:05:58,600 powerful men tasked with doing? According to the sources. 113 00:05:58,439 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 2: Three man things laid out pretty clearly in the briefing document. First, 114 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:05,199 study the recover tech, figure out how it worked, what 115 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:09,199 it was made of, propulsion, material science, you name it. Second, 116 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:12,639 develop strategies. What do we do if there's more contact? 117 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:14,920 What if they're cost all, what if they're not planning 118 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:18,560 for future scenarios? And Third, and this is absolutely crucial 119 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:23,079 for our deep dive today, maintain the secret, establish and 120 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:26,680 run a completely watertight, decades long cover up, keep it 121 00:06:26,759 --> 00:06:29,040 hidden from the public, from the press, even from most 122 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:32,680 of Congress. Information control was paramount job number one. 123 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 1: And it's important, I think to stress that for this 124 00:06:35,199 --> 00:06:37,920 alleged MJ twelve committee, Roswell wasn't supposed to be the 125 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:40,360 end of it, right, This was an ongoing thing, which 126 00:06:40,399 --> 00:06:42,480 suggests more crashes, more recoveries. 127 00:06:42,639 --> 00:06:46,079 Speaker 2: The sources definitely indicate it was an ongoing operation. The 128 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:50,319 briefing documents mention a second significant incident December sixth, nineteen 129 00:06:50,399 --> 00:06:54,480 fifty another object described as probably similar in origin to 130 00:06:54,519 --> 00:06:58,079 the Roswell one crashed near the Texas Mexico border, a 131 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:02,240 Lindio Guerrero area. Apparently this one hit much harder high 132 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:06,079 speed impact. The craft was mostly destroyed, but whatever pieces 133 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:09,759 were left immediately secured sent off to the Atomic Energy 134 00:07:09,759 --> 00:07:14,079 Commission facility at Sandy Base in New Mexico. That detail 135 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:16,839 matters because it reinforces the idea that MG twelve wasn't 136 00:07:16,879 --> 00:07:19,839 just formed for Roswell. It was an established system for 137 00:07:19,879 --> 00:07:22,839 ongoing retrieval and analysis. They were prepared for more. 138 00:07:23,399 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 1: Okay, so this is where for me it gets really interesting. 139 00:07:25,839 --> 00:07:28,600 You have this secret supposedly guarded by the most powerful 140 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:31,519 man in the country, who literally run the nuclear program 141 00:07:31,519 --> 00:07:34,360 and the intelligence agencies. How does this secret like that 142 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:37,240 kept under wraps for nearly forty years suddenly just pop out. 143 00:07:37,639 --> 00:07:40,079 Because secrets that big usually don't leak by accent, do they? 144 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:41,319 They get lead strategically. 145 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:43,839 Speaker 2: That's the perfect way to frame it, because the leak 146 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:48,240 itself felt well engineered. It didn't come from a deathbed 147 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:50,839 confession or a whistleblower walking into the New York Times. 148 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:55,920 It arrived mysteriously. December eleventh, nineteen eighty four, a package 149 00:07:55,959 --> 00:07:58,360 shows up at the Hollywood office of a film producer 150 00:07:58,439 --> 00:08:03,120 named Jamie shandera plain brown wrapper, no return address, no note, 151 00:08:03,519 --> 00:08:07,240 just a single roll of thirty five millimeter film. Now, 152 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:10,639 Shandero was already working with a researcher, Bill Moore, and 153 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:13,879 Moore was deep into the Roswell story, chasing down leads, 154 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:15,279 trying to verify things. 155 00:08:15,399 --> 00:08:18,079 Speaker 1: So they literally have maybe the biggest scoop in history 156 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:20,600 sitting on their desk, but it's just undeveloped film. 157 00:08:20,759 --> 00:08:24,439 Speaker 2: Exactly imagine that moment. They apparently turned Shunder's bathroom into 158 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:27,120 a makeshift dark room to develop it, and what emerged 159 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:30,480 were photos eight photographs of what looked like highly classified 160 00:08:30,519 --> 00:08:33,720 government documents. The very first page had this classification stamped 161 00:08:33,759 --> 00:08:35,679 on it, top secret, magic eyes only. 162 00:08:35,799 --> 00:08:37,679 Speaker 1: Okay, hold on, top secret, we get that, But magic 163 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:40,399 eyes only? What is that? Why is that specific term 164 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:41,559 so important here? 165 00:08:41,639 --> 00:08:44,279 Speaker 2: Magic isn't just some made up dramatic term. It has 166 00:08:44,399 --> 00:08:48,440 real historical weight. During World War Two, magic was the 167 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:51,720 actual code word used for the intelligence derived from decrypting 168 00:08:51,759 --> 00:08:55,279 the highest level Japanese codes. Diplomatic and military think Pearl 169 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:58,639 Harbor warnings, stuff like that. It was a classification reserve 170 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:01,279 for information so sense of it could literally change the 171 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:04,639 course of the war, information on par with say, the 172 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:09,360 Manhattan Project itself. So by labeling these alleged UFO recovery 173 00:09:09,399 --> 00:09:13,120 documents magic eyes only, the documents are explicitly linking the 174 00:09:13,159 --> 00:09:17,000 management of this extraterrestrial issue to the absolute highest level 175 00:09:17,039 --> 00:09:20,559 of national security secrecy, the same level as nuclear weapons 176 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:23,679 and wartime code breaking. The sources claim this was two 177 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:25,320 levels above standard top secret. 178 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 1: Wow. Okay, that detail alone suggests whoever put these documents 179 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:32,200 together or leak them knew their intelligence history. They knew 180 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:34,840 the right obscure terminology. So what was the main document 181 00:09:34,879 --> 00:09:35,639 they photographed. 182 00:09:35,759 --> 00:09:38,639 Speaker 2: The core piece was an eight page briefing paper prepared 183 00:09:38,639 --> 00:09:42,559 specifically for President elect Dwight D. Eisenhower, dated November eighteenth, 184 00:09:42,639 --> 00:09:46,360 nineteen fifty two, and the subject line was unambiguous Briefing 185 00:09:46,399 --> 00:09:49,799 Document Operation Majestic twelve. It laid it all out, confirmed 186 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:52,480 the forty seven crash near Roswell, the recovery of the 187 00:09:52,519 --> 00:09:55,919 craft and the bodies, the EBE classification, and stated flat 188 00:09:55,919 --> 00:09:58,879 out that the committee MJ twelve was established by President 189 00:09:58,879 --> 00:10:00,080 Truman's executive order. 190 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:02,879 Speaker 1: And the timing of this leak, yeah, it lands in 191 00:10:02,919 --> 00:10:05,879 their laps in late eighty four. That timing feels well, 192 00:10:05,919 --> 00:10:07,159 almost too perfect, doesn't it. 193 00:10:07,279 --> 00:10:10,159 Speaker 2: That's a key point when you analyze this. The film 194 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:12,600 role arrives just two months after the death of a 195 00:10:12,639 --> 00:10:17,320 man named doctor Jerome Henner. Hunter was a pretty prominent figure, 196 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:21,960 an aeronautical engineer, big in NASA, the precursor to NASA, 197 00:10:22,399 --> 00:10:25,120 and according to these documents, he was the very last 198 00:10:25,159 --> 00:10:29,159 surviving member of the original Majestic twelve committee. The implication 199 00:10:29,279 --> 00:10:32,240 is huge. It suggests that someone, maybe someone managing the 200 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:36,919 records or an associate, deliberately held onto this information waited 201 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:40,639 until every single original member was dead, unable to deny 202 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:43,799 it or retaliate, then they leaked it. It feels like 203 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:46,320 a calculated move to get the story out, but only 204 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:48,799 when it was safe from the original architects of the secret. 205 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:51,399 Speaker 1: That really sets the stage, doesn't it for looking at 206 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:54,919 who these twelve men actually were the alleged guardians of 207 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:57,120 this incredible secret. Let's talk about the roster. 208 00:10:57,360 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, the names listed for MJ twelve. These aren't just 209 00:10:59,399 --> 00:11:01,440 you know, random jem rules or scientists. These are the 210 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:04,559 guys who literally built the post war American security state, 211 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:06,399 the dupp state, you could call it. They were the 212 00:11:06,399 --> 00:11:08,519 ones entrusted with the nation's biggest secrets. 213 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:11,159 Speaker 1: Already, give us a few examples, just to underline the 214 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:13,320 kind of real world power we're talking about here. 215 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:16,320 Speaker 2: Okay, Well, first some the list. Admiral Roscoe Hill Encoder. 216 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:19,159 He was the very first director of the CIA. He 217 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:22,639 literally built the agency. Then you've got General Nathan Twining, 218 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:26,480 air Force guy crucial in assessing military tech. He was 219 00:11:26,519 --> 00:11:30,399 actually in command at Roswell Army Airfield shortly after the crash, 220 00:11:30,639 --> 00:11:33,720 and famously he wrote a memo in September forty seven, 221 00:11:33,759 --> 00:11:36,440 saying these flying discs were real, they weren't illusions or 222 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:40,200 weather phenomena, and they needed serious, high level study. That 223 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:42,879 memo was a key driver for things like Project sign 224 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:47,759 and maybe the most significant name scientifically, doctor Vana Varbush. 225 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:50,639 He headed the Office of Scientific Research and Development during 226 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:52,919 the war. He was, for all intents and purposes, the 227 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:55,960 chief architect of the Manhattan Project. So you see the pattern. 228 00:11:56,039 --> 00:11:57,519 These weren't just guys in the note. They were the 229 00:11:57,519 --> 00:12:01,039 guys who created the systems for keeping secrets, practically invented 230 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:02,840 modern national security secrecy. 231 00:12:02,919 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 1: It's an unbelievable lineup of institutional power. But there's one 232 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:10,759 name on that list that seems well completely out of place, 233 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:16,000 right doctor Donald Menzel, a Harvard astronomer. Why would a 234 00:12:16,039 --> 00:12:17,879 respected academic be on a list like this. 235 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:21,399 Speaker 2: Menzel's inclusion is where the story shifts, I think, from 236 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:26,360 just secrecy to active deep deception. Because publicly, doctor Menzel 237 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:29,399 was America's number one UFO debunker. He was famous for it. 238 00:12:29,799 --> 00:12:31,840 Anytime there was a big sighting, the press would call 239 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:34,679 Menzel and he'd write books, articles, go on radio explaining 240 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:37,559 it all away. Swamp gas, weather balloons, temperature and versions 241 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:41,320 optical illusions, you name it, he debunked it. So, putting 242 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:44,480 the country's chief skeptic on the secret committee supposedly managing 243 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:47,440 the reality of UFOs, it suggests the operation wasn't just 244 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:49,960 about hiding the truth, it was about actively creating a 245 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:53,759 false narrative. From the very beginning, Menzel's public role arguably 246 00:12:53,879 --> 00:12:56,279 was to be the controlled opposition. His job wasn't to 247 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:58,799 study UFOs, it was to kill public belief in them. 248 00:12:59,039 --> 00:13:02,399 Speaker 1: So his entire public persona, the FATAS debunker, was potentially 249 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:05,240 just a cover, a front designed to protect the real 250 00:13:05,279 --> 00:13:08,039 secret through credible authoritative denial. 251 00:13:08,279 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 2: That's certainly the implication raised by later research. It turns 252 00:13:11,279 --> 00:13:14,720 out Menzel led this incredible double life. He had a 253 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:18,240 thirty year association with the National Security Agency, the NSA, 254 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:22,320 and he held a top secret ultra clearance with the CIA. 255 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:25,399 Now that level of clearance is way way beyond what 256 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:29,440 any normal university professor would ever need or get, And crucially, 257 00:13:29,519 --> 00:13:32,240 records show that right after Roswell in forty seven and 258 00:13:32,279 --> 00:13:35,559 forty eight, Menzel made multiple trips down to New Mexico, 259 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:37,960 trips that were secretly paid for by the US government. 260 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:40,720 If he was just an astronomer to bumping sightings. What 261 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:43,240 was he doing at ground zero on the government's dime? 262 00:13:43,399 --> 00:13:45,879 Speaker 1: And it gets darker, isn't it. His connection isn't just 263 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:49,399 to deception, but potentially to the active destruction of physical evidence, 264 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:50,919 the erasure of history. 265 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:55,440 Speaker 2: This part is no, it's pretty chilling, honestly. Harvard University, 266 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:58,519 where Menzell worked, had been meticulously photographing the night sky 267 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:02,480 since the eighteen eighties, had this priceless archive of astronomical 268 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:06,480 data on half a million photographic glass plates, a unique 269 00:14:06,519 --> 00:14:09,879 historical record. Around nineteen fifty two, Menzel becomes the director 270 00:14:09,879 --> 00:14:12,480 of the Harvard College Observatory, and shortly after he takes 271 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:16,759 over something happens. About a third of that entire irreplaceable collection, 272 00:14:16,879 --> 00:14:20,799 something like one hundred and fifty thousand glass plates were destroyed. 273 00:14:20,399 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 1: Austin destroyed. Why on earth would the director of an 274 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:27,240 observatory destroyed decades of astronomical records. They call this the 275 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:28,200 Menzel gap. 276 00:14:28,559 --> 00:14:33,399 Speaker 2: Exactly the Menzel gap, because those plates represented seventy years 277 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:36,799 of visual history of the sky. If there were any strange, 278 00:14:36,919 --> 00:14:40,279 anomalous objects caught by chance on film over those decades, 279 00:14:40,639 --> 00:14:44,960 evidence that might contradict the official denial story later on, Well, 280 00:14:45,039 --> 00:14:47,480 destroying the plates removes that possibility. It looks like a 281 00:14:47,519 --> 00:14:51,799 systematic effort to erase any potentially inconvenient historical evidence and 282 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:55,200 to make sure no new evidence emerged. Menzel then apparently 283 00:14:55,279 --> 00:14:57,799 blocked Harvard from taking any more photos of the sky 284 00:14:57,919 --> 00:15:00,799 for the next fifteen years. It wasn't just destroying the past, 285 00:15:00,799 --> 00:15:02,799 it was imposing a blackout on the future. 286 00:15:02,879 --> 00:15:07,279 Speaker 1: So Menzel was maybe the controlled denier, but another alleged member, 287 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:10,519 James Forstall, the first Secretary of Defense, he seems to 288 00:15:10,519 --> 00:15:12,840 have been the opposite a problem because he wouldn't stay 289 00:15:12,879 --> 00:15:16,000 quiet in his story, Yeah, it really highlights the potential 290 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:18,000 danger of knowing the secret, doesn't that what happens if 291 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:19,519 you're at the top and you push back. 292 00:15:19,679 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 2: The story of James Forstall is frankly a brutal lesson 293 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:25,799 in the politics of secrecy and power. Forstall was a 294 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:29,759 powerful guy, self made Wall Street background. As the first 295 00:15:29,799 --> 00:15:32,840 sect f he was known for being outspoken, sometimes clashing 296 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:36,399 with Truman over post war policy. He raised concerns about 297 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:40,120 joining NATO too quickly, about recognizing Israel so fast. His 298 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:43,480 arguments were strategic about oil security, regional stability. 299 00:15:43,519 --> 00:15:45,279 Speaker 1: But the really dangerous thing he did, at least in 300 00:15:45,279 --> 00:15:48,480 the eyes of the establishment back then, was publicly warning 301 00:15:48,519 --> 00:15:51,799 that he believed communists had deeply infiltrated the US government 302 00:15:52,159 --> 00:15:54,639 and the media. I claim that, you know, later Jay 303 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:56,960 some traction with the whole HUAC thing, but at the 304 00:15:56,960 --> 00:15:58,679 time was seen as deeply destabilizing. 305 00:15:59,039 --> 00:16:03,720 Speaker 2: Right scene is uncontrollable. He was politically connected, independently wealthy, 306 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:06,279 and he wasn't afraid to speak his mind, even about 307 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:11,360 sensitive topics. He valued transparency, maybe too much for their liking. So, 308 00:16:11,519 --> 00:16:14,960 according to the sources and later researchers, Truman's inner circle 309 00:16:15,039 --> 00:16:18,759 decided he had to be neutralized. They apparently orchestrated this 310 00:16:18,879 --> 00:16:22,639 vicious smear campaign in the press, feeding friendly journalist stories 311 00:16:22,679 --> 00:16:26,840 that Forrestall was paranoid, unstable, losing his mind. The goal 312 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:31,600 seemed clear, destroy his credibility, make him seem mentally unbalanced, 313 00:16:31,879 --> 00:16:34,639 so that if he ever decided to talk about government secrets, 314 00:16:34,919 --> 00:16:37,679 maybe including what he knew or suspected about Roswell and 315 00:16:37,799 --> 00:16:39,840 MJ twelve, he'd just be dismissed as delusional. 316 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 1: And that campaign worked. It led directly to him being 317 00:16:42,519 --> 00:16:43,679 pushed out and confined. 318 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:47,039 Speaker 2: It absolutely worked. He was forced to resign in March 319 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:50,480 nineteen forty nine. Just days later, he was admitted to 320 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:54,840 Bethosda Naval Hospital. The official reason was severe exhaustion, but 321 00:16:54,879 --> 00:16:58,120 many saw it as basically a high security confinement. His 322 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:03,480 access to the outside world was tightly called visitors restricted significantly. 323 00:17:03,559 --> 00:17:06,519 His own Catholic priest was reportedly blocked from seeing him 324 00:17:06,559 --> 00:17:10,559 seven times. Forsole himself wrote letters saying he was fine, 325 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:13,200 demanding to be released, but the Navy kept. 326 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:17,039 Speaker 1: Him there, and then just seven weeks later the silence 327 00:17:17,079 --> 00:17:17,799 became permanent. 328 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:21,519 Speaker 2: Yeah, around one fifty am on May twenty two, nineteen 329 00:17:21,599 --> 00:17:24,279 forty nine, there was a crash reported outside the hospital. 330 00:17:24,599 --> 00:17:27,000 Forestyle was found dead on a third floor ledge. His 331 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:30,000 room was on the sixteenth floor. The official verdict came 332 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:33,240 almost instantly suicide. They said he'd tried to hang himself 333 00:17:33,279 --> 00:17:35,880 with his bathrobe belt, it snapped and he fell. The 334 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:38,839 hospital declared it a suicide within hours. No autopsy was 335 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:42,240 ever performed. The corner just rubber stamped the report apparently 336 00:17:42,279 --> 00:17:44,359 without even examining the body or the scene. 337 00:17:44,079 --> 00:17:46,839 Speaker 1: Properly, and the cover up afterward just screams that something 338 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:47,319 wasn't right. 339 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:52,640 Speaker 2: It was meticulous and frankly bizarre. Navy officials actually classified 340 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:54,920 the number of windows in his hospital room as top secret. 341 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:57,079 I mean, why classify the number of windows unless you're 342 00:17:57,119 --> 00:18:00,039 hiding something about how someone got in or out on 343 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:04,559 more telling forstyle, kept extensive personal diaries, thousands of pages 344 00:18:04,599 --> 00:18:09,960 detailing meetings, thoughts, potentially sensitive information. Those diaries were immediately 345 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:13,279 seized by the Navy. When they were finally released years 346 00:18:13,319 --> 00:18:16,920 later after a lot of pressure, huge sections were blacked out, 347 00:18:17,319 --> 00:18:21,279 entire passages just missing, censored by the Navy. The strong 348 00:18:21,279 --> 00:18:24,000 suspicion among his family and supporters was that those missing 349 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:28,680 septions contained secrets someone powerful wanted buried forever, Secrets, possibly 350 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:31,880 about the communist infiltration he warned about, and maybe maybe 351 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:34,519 about the burden of the MJ twelve secret he allegedly carried. 352 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:38,319 Forrestal's death sent a chilling message through the corridors of power. 353 00:18:38,759 --> 00:18:42,160 Keep the secret. Silence is not optional. There are consequences 354 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:43,000 for breaking ranks. 355 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:46,839 Speaker 1: That foresole story is just wow. It's crucial because it 356 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:49,559 shows the potential lengths they were willing to go to. 357 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:52,519 It takes MJ twelve out of the realm of just 358 00:18:52,599 --> 00:18:57,119 theory and into well potentially deadly real politic. Okay, let's 359 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:00,359 jump forward again mid nineteen eighties. The first document dump happens, 360 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,880 Then the trail goes cold until this really weird coded 361 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:06,559 message shows up like something out of a spy novel. 362 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:09,559 Speaker 2: Yeah, after the initial excitement about the nineteen eighty four 363 00:19:09,559 --> 00:19:12,240 film role died down a bit, the researchers More and 364 00:19:12,279 --> 00:19:15,519 Shander they knew they needed more, something to really corroborate 365 00:19:15,519 --> 00:19:19,200 those initial documents. Then in early nineteen eighty five, this 366 00:19:19,319 --> 00:19:22,279 postcard arrives at Bill Moore's house, postmarked from New Zealand, 367 00:19:22,319 --> 00:19:24,759 which is weird enough, but the return address, a PO 368 00:19:24,799 --> 00:19:28,160 box in addis Ababa, Ethiopia, even weirder. And the message 369 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:31,880 itself was just cryptic clues, words like Suitland and Reese's Pieces. 370 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:34,319 Speaker 1: I love this part. It sounds so deliberately cloak and dagger. 371 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:36,720 So what did Suitland and Reese's Pieces turn out to mean? 372 00:19:36,759 --> 00:19:37,839 It wasn't candy, I dig it. 373 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:41,680 Speaker 2: No, definitely not the candy from Etymore figure. This had 374 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:44,359 to be code, probably aimed at someone familiar with the 375 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:48,519 DC area and maybe military stuff he brought in Stanton Friedman, 376 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:52,359 the nuclear physicist and UFO researcher. Friedman, you know, he 377 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:56,240 approached the stuff scientifically, having worked on classified projects himself. 378 00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:01,400 Friedman helped crack it. Suitland wasn't about clothes. It was Suitland, Maryland, 379 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:04,519 which is home to the National Archives Massive Record Center 380 00:20:05,279 --> 00:20:08,759 and Reese's pieces. That was apparently a phonetic clue for 381 00:20:08,799 --> 00:20:11,920 a person Ed Reese, who worked at the Archives, specifically 382 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:15,319 in the military records branch. The postcard was basically a 383 00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:18,519 treasure map, pointing them to a specific building and even 384 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:20,400 a helpful person inside. 385 00:20:20,559 --> 00:20:23,759 Speaker 1: Okay, So, armed with this totally bizarre postcard code, they 386 00:20:23,799 --> 00:20:26,680 head out to the National Archives in Suitland, which is 387 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:28,880 just this enormous place, right, How did they find the 388 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:29,839 needle in that haystack? 389 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 2: Well, they used the other clue from the postcard, the 390 00:20:32,039 --> 00:20:35,799 return address PO box number one eighty nine. They asked 391 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:39,119 the archivist, presumably Ed Reese or someone. He directed them 392 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:41,559 to to search the records for box one eighty nine 393 00:20:41,559 --> 00:20:44,640 within Record Group three forty one. That specific group covers 394 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:47,799 air Force records from that era. The archivist checks the 395 00:20:47,839 --> 00:20:50,640 system and here's the kicker. The computer shows the last 396 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:53,000 time that specific box Box one eighty nine had been 397 00:20:53,039 --> 00:20:56,519 accessed was September nineteen eighty four, just two weeks after 398 00:20:56,559 --> 00:20:59,680 doctor Jerome Herner, the last alleged MJ twelve member, died, 399 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:02,599 and right before that film role mysteriously showed up in Hollywood. 400 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:04,680 It really looked like someone was leaving a breadcrumb trail 401 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:06,000 for them, timing it perfectly. 402 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:08,119 Speaker 1: Okay, so what was in Box one eighty nine? Was 403 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:09,039 it the smoking gun? 404 00:21:09,319 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 2: Well, inside this box, which mostly contained boring routine Air 405 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:16,480 Force budget reports from the early nineteen fifties, they found 406 00:21:16,599 --> 00:21:20,000 one single sheet of paper just tucked in there, almost hidden. 407 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:23,799 It was the Cutler Twining Memo, a memorandum classified top 408 00:21:23,839 --> 00:21:27,359 secret restricted information from General Nathan Twining, signed off by 409 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:30,759 Robert Cutler, who was President Eisenhower's Special Assistant for National 410 00:21:30,839 --> 00:21:34,359 Security Affairs, and the key sentence, the one that made 411 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:37,359 them think they'd hit the jackpot, read, the President has 412 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:40,200 decided that the MJ twelve SSP briefing should take place 413 00:21:40,279 --> 00:21:43,240 during the already scheduled White House Meeting of July sixteenth, 414 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:46,880 SSP likely meeting Special Studies Project for More and schonderra 415 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:49,519 This looked like it the final piece an official government 416 00:21:49,559 --> 00:21:53,279 document filed in the National Archives that explicitly referenced MJ twelve. 417 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:55,359 It seemed to confirm everything they must. 418 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 1: Have thought they'd cracked it. They had the initial briefing, 419 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:01,200 the names, the foresol tragedy is content text, and now 420 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:05,759 this official memo seemingly tying it all together in government files. 421 00:22:06,279 --> 00:22:10,319 But and there's always a butt with this story. The 422 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:13,519 deeper layer here, according to the sources, is that this 423 00:22:13,759 --> 00:22:17,319 discovery itself might have been completely staged, part of a 424 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:18,160 much bigger game. 425 00:22:18,319 --> 00:22:21,279 Speaker 2: That's the deeply unsettling twist in all this. Remember where 426 00:22:21,319 --> 00:22:24,640 the first envelope, the one with the film, was postmarked Albuquerque, 427 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:25,440 New Mexican. 428 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:27,480 Speaker 1: Right home of Kirtland Air Force Base exactly. 429 00:22:27,519 --> 00:22:30,559 Speaker 2: And Kirkland AFB was the operational base for a special 430 00:22:30,599 --> 00:22:33,799 agent named Richard Doty. He worked for AFOSI, the Air 431 00:22:33,839 --> 00:22:35,799 Force Office of Special Investigations. 432 00:22:35,839 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 1: And Doty's job wasn't just investigating crimes, was it? His 433 00:22:39,039 --> 00:22:40,359 specialty was something else. 434 00:22:40,759 --> 00:22:46,680 Speaker 2: His unit's official designation internally was deception Operations. Not disinformation, 435 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:50,400 which is just spreading lies, but deception, a more complex 436 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:53,359 strategy using a mix of truth and lies to actively 437 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:57,240 mislead an opponent, control their perception, make them waste resources. 438 00:22:57,799 --> 00:23:01,079 His specific program targeting the UFO community was apparently called 439 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:05,319 Operation Qinaw, and Dotey's job essentially was to neutralize the 440 00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:08,839 growing public and research interest in UFOs by feeding the 441 00:23:08,839 --> 00:23:13,759 community controlled information, sometimes true, sometimes false, always designed to 442 00:23:13,759 --> 00:23:16,960 confuse and misdirect. His most infamous target was a guy 443 00:23:17,039 --> 00:23:21,160 named Paul Benowitz. Benowitz was a physicist working near Kirtland, 444 00:23:21,319 --> 00:23:25,039 and he genuinely believed he was intercepting coded electronic communications, 445 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,799 possibly from aliens interacting with secret US projects. He might 446 00:23:28,839 --> 00:23:31,440 have been picking up signals from actual classified projects getting 447 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:31,920 too close. 448 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:34,640 Speaker 1: So instead of just telling Benowitz to knock it off 449 00:23:34,759 --> 00:23:38,640 or investigating them conventionally, Doty took a different approach. 450 00:23:38,559 --> 00:23:42,519 Speaker 2: A much more insidious approach. It was basically psychological warfare. 451 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:47,279 Doty didn't deny what Benefitz was finding. He reportedly confirmed it, saying, yeah, Paul, 452 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:51,160 you are onto something big. It is aliens. And then 453 00:23:51,519 --> 00:23:55,799 Dody and his Fosley colleagues started feeding Benowitz's counterfeit documents 454 00:23:56,279 --> 00:24:00,720 increasingly bizarre stories about secret treaties with aliens, underground alien 455 00:24:00,759 --> 00:24:04,440 bases right there under dulstin New Mexico crazy stuff. They 456 00:24:04,559 --> 00:24:08,839 encouraged his paranoia, validated his wildest theories until Benowitz had 457 00:24:08,839 --> 00:24:12,680 a complete mental breakdown. He was eventually institutionalized, and just 458 00:24:12,759 --> 00:24:16,200 like that, anything he might have genuinely stumbled upon was discredited. 459 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:19,000 He was just another crazy UFO guy. The goal wasn't 460 00:24:19,039 --> 00:24:22,240 just to stop him, it was to utterly destroy his credibility, 461 00:24:22,279 --> 00:24:23,400 maybe even his sanity. 462 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,720 Speaker 1: And they didn't just go after vulnerable individuals like Benowitz, 463 00:24:26,759 --> 00:24:29,039 did they. They aimed this deception strategy right at the 464 00:24:29,039 --> 00:24:30,119 mainstream media too. 465 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:32,599 Speaker 2: That's when you see the real power and reach of 466 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:36,720 this operation. They targeted Linda Moulton Howe, an Emmy Award 467 00:24:36,759 --> 00:24:40,359 winning documentary filmmaker. She was working on a big project 468 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:44,480 for HBO, a serious documentary about the UFO phenomenon, focusing 469 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:48,359 on potential government involvement and animal mutilations possibly linked to it. 470 00:24:48,839 --> 00:24:52,200 Dodie approached her acting like a sympathetic insider, a whistleblower. 471 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,880 He promised her access access to official documents, even footage 472 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:59,319 of crash saucers, alien bodies, the whole nine yards. But 473 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,720 the real goal under Operation Canal was specifically to derail 474 00:25:02,759 --> 00:25:06,480 that HBO documentary, to stop a credible, high profile investigation 475 00:25:06,559 --> 00:25:07,920 from reaching a mass audience. 476 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:10,480 Speaker 1: So they did it by feeding her their own tainted. 477 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:14,720 Speaker 2: Information exactly Doti and another a Focie agent, allegedly showed 478 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:18,440 Howard documents, gave her film clips stuff that looked authentic 479 00:25:18,519 --> 00:25:21,680 but was later determined to be fabricated. They strung her along, 480 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:24,799 feeding her a mix of potentially real leads and definite fakes. 481 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:29,160 By getting her invested in their controlled narrative, possibly using 482 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:33,920 fake evidence, they effectively compromised her investigation. HBO ended up 483 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:37,640 canceling the documentary, her reputation as a serious journalist took 484 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:41,480 a major hit. You see the pattern. Promise the truth, 485 00:25:41,799 --> 00:25:45,319 deliver sophisticated fakes, let the researcher run with it, and 486 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:47,680 then when it collapses, or maybe even help it collapse, 487 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:51,440 the researcher is discredited and the core secret, whatever it is, 488 00:25:51,559 --> 00:25:52,559 remains untouched. 489 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:56,079 Speaker 1: Okay, this is a massive fundamental question, doesn't it. How 490 00:25:56,079 --> 00:25:58,599 can you possibly trust any of this information, any of 491 00:25:58,599 --> 00:26:01,400 these documents when the researchers who brought them to light 492 00:26:01,519 --> 00:26:04,519 might have been compromised. When one of the key players, 493 00:26:04,559 --> 00:26:07,799 Bill Moore, actually confessed to being part of the deception. 494 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 2: Morre's confession in nineteen eighty nine, Yeah, that was like 495 00:26:11,039 --> 00:26:14,000 a bomb going off in the UFO research world. Here 496 00:26:14,079 --> 00:26:16,319 was Bill Moore, the guy hailed as a hero for 497 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:19,480 uncovering the MJ twelve papers, standing up at a conference 498 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:23,200 and admitting it, Admitting he'd been recruited by Dody by Aphosi. 499 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:26,519 He confessed his job was basically to act as an agent, 500 00:26:26,599 --> 00:26:29,799 feeding information back to Apossy about who believed, what, how 501 00:26:29,839 --> 00:26:33,720 effective their disinformation campaigns were, Spying on his own colleagues. 502 00:26:33,519 --> 00:26:36,359 Speaker 1: And he admitted that some of the wilder stories circulating 503 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:40,720 than secret treaties with aliens, underground battles, mass subductions, and implants, 504 00:26:40,799 --> 00:26:43,799 these were things Afosy was actively injecting into the community 505 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:45,160 to muddy the waters. 506 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,519 Speaker 2: He confirmed that those narratives were at least in part 507 00:26:48,759 --> 00:26:52,880 manufactured and pushed by the disinformation apparatus. His confession was 508 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:55,640 absolutely devastating. He was basically run out of the field. 509 00:26:56,039 --> 00:26:59,440 His career was over and instantly it cast this huge 510 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:03,000 shadow over the MG twelve documents themselves. Were they genuine 511 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:05,720 or were they just the most elaborate piece of disinformation 512 00:27:05,839 --> 00:27:09,319 ever created, designed to be found generate excitement and controversy, 513 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:11,880 and then be publicly torched by their own controlled asset 514 00:27:12,079 --> 00:27:14,640 more a way to waste everyone's time and kill the 515 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:15,480 topic for good. 516 00:27:16,279 --> 00:27:18,640 Speaker 1: It's kind of horribly brilliant if you think about it. 517 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:20,680 The best way to hide a real secret is to 518 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:24,519 create a fake, confusing, ultimately discredited version of it. The 519 00:27:24,599 --> 00:27:28,039 lie inoculates against the truth. But the story didn't even 520 00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:30,559 end there, did it. Yeah, even after Moore's confessions seemed 521 00:27:30,559 --> 00:27:32,200 to sync the whole MJ twelve ship. 522 00:27:32,279 --> 00:27:34,400 Speaker 2: It's incredible, isn't it. Just when you think the story 523 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,759 is dead and buried as a complex hoax, another wave 524 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:41,519 hits nineteen ninety four, ten years after the first leak. 525 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:44,839 This time the documents are sent again anonymously to a 526 00:27:44,839 --> 00:27:47,319 different researcher, Don Berliner, who was known for his work 527 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,279 with Friedman. And this wasn't just another memo or briefing. 528 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,440 This was supposedly the jackpot, the Rosetta Stone, as some 529 00:27:53,519 --> 00:27:53,920 called it. 530 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:56,759 Speaker 1: This was the Majestic twelve Group Special Operations Manual. 531 00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:00,640 Speaker 2: That's the one. Full title SOM one zero one Majestic 532 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:05,359 twelve Group Special Operations Manual. Extraterrestrial Entities and Technology Recovery 533 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:09,359 and Disposal, dated April nineteen fifty four and stamped yet 534 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:12,960 again with that top secret magic eyes only classification. For 535 00:28:13,039 --> 00:28:16,519 the believers, this was it the Holy Grail, a detailed, 536 00:28:16,559 --> 00:28:19,720 step by step instruction manual for military and intelligence teams 537 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,160 on exactly how to handle crash retrievals, how to secure 538 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:23,799 the site, how to handle the craft, how to deal 539 00:28:23,839 --> 00:28:28,079 with well the occupants. The procedures were so specific, so clinical, 540 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:30,279 they felt chillingly real, and. 541 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,519 Speaker 1: The protocols for dealing with the ebees they weren't exactly gentle, 542 00:28:33,559 --> 00:28:34,240 were they. No. 543 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:39,599 Speaker 2: The manual makes it brutally clear security is of paramount importance. 544 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,160 All other considerations are secondary. It goes on to state 545 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:46,559 that while preserving the ede's life is preferable, the loss 546 00:28:46,559 --> 00:28:49,720 of ebe life is considered acceptable if conditions or delays 547 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,759 to preserve that life in any way compromises the security 548 00:28:52,759 --> 00:28:56,359 of the operations. It laid out procedures for bagging cadavers, 549 00:28:56,359 --> 00:28:59,720 wrapping them in waterproof material, preserving them with ice or refrigeration. 550 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,440 It treated potential alien life as essentially a hazardous material 551 00:29:03,559 --> 00:29:05,119 or a captured asset, and nothing more. 552 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 1: And this manual even included like a taxonomy classifying the 553 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,200 different types of craft and beings they were supposedly encountering. 554 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, it got really specific. It described four main types 555 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:19,880 of alien craft they might recover discs, cigars, cones, and triangles, 556 00:29:20,119 --> 00:29:23,359 and it detailed two distinct types of edes. Type one 557 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,519 were described as roughly five feet tall with pale yellowish skin. 558 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:28,680 Type two were the ones that sound much more familiar 559 00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,680 from pop culture, three to four feet tall, the classic grays, 560 00:29:32,119 --> 00:29:35,960 big heads, large slanted eyes, pale gray skin, three long 561 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:38,640 fingers in the thumb, and guess we're Page two of 562 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:42,400 this incredibly detailed top secret manual identified its source location 563 00:29:42,839 --> 00:29:47,640 curtlind Air Force Base, Albuquerque, New Mexico, Richard Dody's home turf, 564 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:49,400 again always pointing back there. 565 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 1: Okay, let's really get into the forensic analysis here, because 566 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,079 this set of documents, the manual especially, it's either the 567 00:29:55,079 --> 00:29:58,960 most explosive confirmation immageable or it is perhaps the most sophisticated, 568 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,880 deliberate forgery ever created. What does the evidence say when 569 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:02,400 you break it. 570 00:30:02,359 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 2: Down, Well, the case for it being a hoax, or 571 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,680 at least a forgery is actually pretty strong, based on 572 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:11,920 some very specific errors. Errors that seem maybe too obvious, 573 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:14,759 which makes you wonder if they were put there deliberately 574 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,960 as a kind of built in deniability. For example, that 575 00:30:18,039 --> 00:30:21,359 Cutler Twining memo, the one found in the archives. Later 576 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,880 research showed Robert Cutler, whose signature supposedly on it, was 577 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,920 actually verifiably out of the country on the date the 578 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:29,680 memo was signed. That's a big problem. 579 00:30:29,759 --> 00:30:31,680 Speaker 1: And there were issues with the language used, too right 580 00:30:31,799 --> 00:30:33,799 seen and too modern for the fifties exactly. 581 00:30:34,039 --> 00:30:38,680 Speaker 2: The documents consistently use the broad term media to refer 582 00:30:38,759 --> 00:30:41,200 to the press. That term didn't really come into common 583 00:30:41,319 --> 00:30:43,680 usage like that until much later in the fifties. They 584 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:47,119 would have just said the press. There were also weird 585 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:50,599 inconsistencies in date formats, sometimes using a leading zero for 586 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:54,039 single digit days like six, sometimes not, which wasn't standard 587 00:30:54,039 --> 00:30:57,759 military practice then. And critically, the nineteen fifty four Operations 588 00:30:57,799 --> 00:31:01,440 Manual makes references to Area fifty one. That name Area 589 00:31:01,519 --> 00:31:04,359 fifty one was a much later CIA designation for the 590 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,240 Groom Lake Facility. It wasn't called that in nineteen fifty four. 591 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:10,279 Speaker 1: But the real killer, the anachronism that seems impossible to 592 00:31:10,319 --> 00:31:14,000 explain away. If the manual's genuine from fifty four involves 593 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:15,359 space technology, doesn't it. 594 00:31:15,759 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 2: That's probably the biggest red flag for it being a 595 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:22,799 straightforward forgery. The nineteen fifty four manual includes detailed procedures 596 00:31:22,839 --> 00:31:27,079 for recovering down satellites artificial Earth satellites, But the first 597 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:31,039 artificial satellite ever launched was Sputnik by the Soviets in 598 00:31:31,079 --> 00:31:34,759 October nineteen fifty seven, three years after this manual was 599 00:31:34,759 --> 00:31:38,359 supposedly written. How could a nineteen fifty four US military 600 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:42,559 manual have protocols for recovering technology that literally didn't exist yet. 601 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:45,799 That kind of glaring error makes you think either the 602 00:31:45,839 --> 00:31:50,319 forger was sloppy or that error was deliberately planted. Planted 603 00:31:50,319 --> 00:31:52,400 so that if the document ever got serious scrutiny, it 604 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:55,559 could be easily shot down publicly debunked. See it mentioned 605 00:31:55,559 --> 00:31:57,039 satellites before Sputnik. It's fake. 606 00:31:57,359 --> 00:31:59,960 Speaker 1: Okay, So those are some serious problems pointing towards forgery. 607 00:32:00,319 --> 00:32:02,599 But what about the other side. What makes these documents, 608 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:06,000 especially the manual, so compelling? Why did they fool people 609 00:32:06,039 --> 00:32:08,720 for so long? And why do some still believe the 610 00:32:08,759 --> 00:32:10,400 sophistication must be incredible? 611 00:32:10,519 --> 00:32:14,839 Speaker 2: Oh, it's astonishingly sophisticated in other ways. The physical aspects 612 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:18,000 were often spot on the role of film. The manual 613 00:32:18,119 --> 00:32:21,920 arrived on it was authenticated as genuine nineteen fifties era 614 00:32:22,039 --> 00:32:26,480 codac tricks photographic stock. Forensic analysis of the typography the 615 00:32:26,559 --> 00:32:29,599 actual printed letters on the documents it showed characteristics like 616 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:32,839 a slightly raised letter Z that were consistent with a 617 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,759 specific type of hot lead printing press commonly used by 618 00:32:35,759 --> 00:32:39,240 government printers in nineteen fifty four. They got obscure details 619 00:32:39,319 --> 00:32:42,640 right too. They use the correct period specific term craft 620 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:45,119 tape instead of the modern term duct tape. They use 621 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,480 the official nineteen fifties postal abbreviation for New Mexico, which 622 00:32:48,519 --> 00:32:52,079 was NMEX, not the modern NM. Little things, but they 623 00:32:52,079 --> 00:32:53,720 add up to an air of authenticity. 624 00:32:53,839 --> 00:32:56,799 Speaker 1: It's this crazy mix, isn't it, Glaring errors next to 625 00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,960 incredibly precise, authentic details. And then there's those factual hooks, 626 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:03,480 the coincidences that are just hard to dismiss entirely. 627 00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:06,839 Speaker 2: Those are the anchors, the little bits of verified truth 628 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,880 woven into the potentially fabricated narrative that make it so 629 00:33:10,039 --> 00:33:12,759 hard to just throw the whole thing out, Like President 630 00:33:12,799 --> 00:33:15,839 Truman really did meet with vanavar Bush and James Forskall 631 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,960 on the exact date the alleged MJ twelve executive order 632 00:33:19,039 --> 00:33:23,680 was supposedly signed. That's verifiable. General Twining's official flight logs 633 00:33:23,799 --> 00:33:26,160 do place him in New Mexico right around the time 634 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:30,400 of the Roswell crash. That's verifiable. Doctor Menzel, the debunker 635 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:33,240 really did hold top secret clearances with the CIA and 636 00:33:33,359 --> 00:33:35,759 NSA and travel to New Mexico on the government's dime. 637 00:33:36,079 --> 00:33:39,079 That's verifiable. The forgeries, if that's what they are, weren't 638 00:33:39,119 --> 00:33:42,039 just random lies. They were carefully constructed around a skeleton 639 00:33:42,119 --> 00:33:45,839 of actual, verifiable, often sensitive, historical facts. That's what makes 640 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:47,480 them so powerful and so confusing. 641 00:33:47,599 --> 00:33:49,240 Speaker 1: So let's try and connect all these threads. If we 642 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,039 look at the whole picture, the initial leak, the coded messages, 643 00:33:52,079 --> 00:33:55,640 the archives, discovery, the confession, the second wave of documents, 644 00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:58,720 the mix of errors and accuracy, what's the conclusion. It 645 00:33:58,799 --> 00:34:01,440 sounds less like a simple hoax and more like, well, 646 00:34:01,559 --> 00:34:05,880 exactly what Doty specialized in, a psyop a psychological operation. 647 00:34:06,279 --> 00:34:08,519 Speaker 2: When you step back and look at the entire arc, 648 00:34:08,639 --> 00:34:11,119 that's really the only conclusion that seems to fit all 649 00:34:11,159 --> 00:34:14,599 the pieces. However contradictory they seem. This wasn't just some 650 00:34:14,679 --> 00:34:17,400 guy in his basement faking documents, This wasn't a genuine 651 00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:21,599 leak that got confused. The sheer complexity, the resources involved, 652 00:34:21,639 --> 00:34:24,639 the timing, the connection back to Aposi in Kirtland, the 653 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:28,480 use of a compromised researcher like More to eventually discredit it. 654 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:32,800 It all points towards a highly sophisticated, deliberately constructed psychological 655 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:37,039 operation run by elements within US intelligence. This wasn't really 656 00:34:37,119 --> 00:34:40,400 about revealing aliens. It was an exercise and information control. 657 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:43,440 The documents were likely designed to be found, designed to 658 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:45,840 be debated, designed to consume massive amounts of time and 659 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:50,440 energy from researchers, and ultimately designed to be debunkable, possibly 660 00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:54,440 by their own operatives, discrediting the entire field. Why maybe 661 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:56,800 to distract from actual secrets being tested out in the 662 00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:00,559 desert near Kirtland, real black projects, experimental air crap things 663 00:35:00,599 --> 00:35:02,880 they really didn't want people looking too closely at. By 664 00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:07,000 feeding the UFO community of this incredibly elaborate, ultimately flawed narrative, 665 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:11,559 they could control the conversation, misdirect attention, and neutralize anyone 666 00:35:11,559 --> 00:35:13,360 who got too close to something sensitive. 667 00:35:13,599 --> 00:35:17,199 Speaker 1: It's the ultimate counterintelligence tactic, isn't it. Don't just deny 668 00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:22,079 this secret exists. Create a fake, incredibly messy, controversy laden 669 00:35:22,199 --> 00:35:24,880 version of the secret, let people chase it for years, 670 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:28,239 then pull the rug out. After that, nobody will believe 671 00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:30,880 any version of the story. The real secret is safer. 672 00:35:30,559 --> 00:35:33,679 Speaker 2: Than ever exactly, And the truly chilling takeaway I think 673 00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:36,079 for everyone listening today is that this wasn't just some weird, 674 00:35:36,159 --> 00:35:39,079 isolated thing that happened to UFO researchers back in the eighties, 675 00:35:39,639 --> 00:35:43,079 Richard Dody and a FOCI. They were field testing techniques 676 00:35:43,079 --> 00:35:46,559 for manipulating public perception and controlling narratives. The methods they 677 00:35:46,599 --> 00:35:49,880 perfected back then the calculated leaks, the blend of truth 678 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:53,519 and lies, the strategic smearing of credible sources, the use 679 00:35:53,559 --> 00:35:57,480 of compromised insiders. These are now standard operating procedure in 680 00:35:57,559 --> 00:36:00,440 modern information warfare. We are all subject did to these 681 00:36:00,519 --> 00:36:04,760 kinds of manipulation campaigns constantly now, in politics, in media, narratives, 682 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:06,800 in online discourse everywhere. 683 00:36:07,039 --> 00:36:11,039 Speaker 3: Wow, so we're all basically pull Benewitz now constantly swimming 684 00:36:11,039 --> 00:36:13,840 in this sea of information, some true, some false, all 685 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:16,880 designed to keep us confused, divided, and chasing shadows. 686 00:36:17,159 --> 00:36:18,559 Speaker 1: So what does this all mean for us? 687 00:36:18,559 --> 00:36:18,719 Speaker 2: Then? 688 00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:21,360 Speaker 3: If the MJ twelve story teaches us anything, so that 689 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,320 the real battle isn't necessarily about finding that one magic 690 00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:27,599 document that proves everything. It's about understanding who is releasing 691 00:36:27,639 --> 00:36:31,239 information and why, discerning the motivation behind the message. 692 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,800 Speaker 2: Absolutely, critical thinking isn't just a buzzword. It's the essential 693 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:38,280 survival skill in this environment. You have to constantly question 694 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:41,119 the source question, the timing question, the narrative. We need 695 00:36:41,159 --> 00:36:47,159 to recognize that creating confusion, fostering division, promoting distraction, these 696 00:36:47,199 --> 00:36:50,320 are often the intended goals of these information campaigns, both 697 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:52,639 the historical ones like MJ twelve and the ones happening 698 00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:55,960 right now, when everyone's arguing about whether the date format 699 00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:57,960 on a memo is correct or whether media was the 700 00:36:58,039 --> 00:37:00,960 right word for nineteen fifty two, not asking the bigger, 701 00:37:01,039 --> 00:37:05,960 harder questions, questions about government secrecy, about accountability, about the immense, 702 00:37:06,119 --> 00:37:08,960 often unchecked power structures that were solidified way back in 703 00:37:09,039 --> 00:37:11,440 nineteen forty seven and arguably still operate today. 704 00:37:11,679 --> 00:37:15,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, the ultimate truth of the Majestic twelve saga perhaps 705 00:37:16,119 --> 00:37:20,000 isn't really about whether aliens crashed or roswell. It's about governance. 706 00:37:20,039 --> 00:37:22,880 It's about control. It's about the willingness of people in 707 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:26,760 power to manipulate reality, to sacrifice truth for what they 708 00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:30,599 see as strategic necessity. The weaponization of information might have 709 00:37:30,679 --> 00:37:33,840 been tested on a relatively small community back then, but 710 00:37:34,039 --> 00:37:36,840 its effects are everywhere now. It impacts every single one 711 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:42,159 of you listening, staying focused, rejecting the easy distractions, demanding transparency, 712 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:45,920 and holding elected officials genuinely accountable. That's maybe the only 713 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:47,559 way to push back against these systems. 714 00:37:47,639 --> 00:37:50,320 Speaker 2: We have to be as persistent in demanding truth and 715 00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:53,280 clarity as those systems maybe established with the kind of 716 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:56,519 rieflessness we saw hinted at in Forstal's story, have been 717 00:37:56,519 --> 00:37:59,960 in maintaining their secrets. It's a constant struggle against engine 718 00:38:00,119 --> 00:38:02,960 your noise and deliberate confusion. You have to keep asking 719 00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:03,920 the hard questions.