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True Murder with 52 00:02:42.439 --> 00:02:45.879 your host, journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 53 00:02:55.879 --> 00:02:56.400 Good Evening. 54 00:02:57.360 --> 00:03:00.439 This episode of true Murder is brought to you by Casper, 55 00:03:01.120 --> 00:03:06.360 the online American retailer, saving you big money by revolutionizing 56 00:03:06.439 --> 00:03:11.039 the mattress industry, cutting out resellers and showrooms to deliver 57 00:03:11.080 --> 00:03:15.240 it to you the latest in sleep technology at shockingly 58 00:03:15.319 --> 00:03:20.960 low prices. Visit www dot Casper dot com. Promo code 59 00:03:21.280 --> 00:03:27.159 true Murder rest Assured. Casper delivers the best sleep you've 60 00:03:27.159 --> 00:03:32.120 only ever dreamed of. A survivor's first hand account of 61 00:03:32.159 --> 00:03:37.560 attempted murder in Saint Francisville, Louisiana, a former warden of 62 00:03:37.599 --> 00:03:41.039 Angola Prison shoots his wife five times with a pistol, 63 00:03:41.439 --> 00:03:44.240 then sits down to watch her die on her plantation 64 00:03:44.400 --> 00:03:48.639 home porch. The victim, author Anne Butler, survives to tell 65 00:03:48.719 --> 00:03:52.199 this true crime story, detailing the unraveling of her seven 66 00:03:52.280 --> 00:03:55.360 year marriage and how it led to her near murder, 67 00:03:56.039 --> 00:03:59.840 interspersed with simple black and white snapshots. This stranger then 68 00:04:00.479 --> 00:04:05.520 story of murder, survival and forgiveness offers keen insights into 69 00:04:05.560 --> 00:04:07.960 the mind of both victim and criminal. 70 00:04:08.759 --> 00:04:09.400 The book that we. 71 00:04:09.360 --> 00:04:12.879 Are featuring this evening is Weep for the Living with 72 00:04:12.960 --> 00:04:16.959 my special guest author and Butler. Welcome to the program, 73 00:04:17.000 --> 00:04:18.759 and thank you for a green to this interview. 74 00:04:19.160 --> 00:04:23.279 And Butler, my pleasure, Dane, nice to talk to you. 75 00:04:24.240 --> 00:04:25.120 Thank you very much. 76 00:04:25.959 --> 00:04:29.399 Now let's get right to as you do so masterfully 77 00:04:29.439 --> 00:04:34.560 in your book. Set get you, set the mood, and 78 00:04:35.480 --> 00:04:40.800 take us right into the Butler Greenwood Plantation in Louisiana. 79 00:04:41.040 --> 00:04:44.720 You talk about this being eight generations of family in 80 00:04:44.800 --> 00:04:49.079 this home. So tell us about the Butler Greenwood Plantation. 81 00:04:51.079 --> 00:04:54.240 This is in Saint Francis Belle, Louisiana, and San francis 82 00:04:54.279 --> 00:04:59.959 Ville is not French Louisiana or Cajun Louisiana or Creole Louisiana. 83 00:05:00.360 --> 00:05:04.639 It's English Louisiana. And the early settlers here came down 84 00:05:05.319 --> 00:05:08.560 from the East Coast right after the Revolutionary War, and 85 00:05:08.639 --> 00:05:12.480 they brought with them very English traditions. And culture. My 86 00:05:12.639 --> 00:05:17.680 family came in the seventeen seventies and got Spanish land grants, 87 00:05:17.720 --> 00:05:21.560 and first they grew indigo as their cash crop, and 88 00:05:21.600 --> 00:05:26.360 then cotton and sugar cane. This plantation has never been 89 00:05:26.480 --> 00:05:31.360 sold out of the family, and so it's a little unusual. 90 00:05:32.000 --> 00:05:36.120 We operated it as a tour house for twenty three 91 00:05:36.240 --> 00:05:38.519 years and then finally have closed it. But we do 92 00:05:38.639 --> 00:05:43.399 bet and breakfast on the plantation. So it's a family home. 93 00:05:45.040 --> 00:05:50.000 A lot of history here, and it is typical of 94 00:05:50.040 --> 00:05:57.759 the plantation the English plantation country, a lot of Bavoks, 95 00:05:57.800 --> 00:06:05.000 formal gardens, beautiful historic home, very beautiful furnishings, and so 96 00:06:06.360 --> 00:06:10.319 visitors really enjoy seeing something that has never been sold 97 00:06:10.360 --> 00:06:13.240 out of the family or owned by the state or 98 00:06:13.240 --> 00:06:16.800 anything like that. It's a real, real piece of living 99 00:06:16.920 --> 00:06:17.600 history here. 100 00:06:18.680 --> 00:06:19.319 Absolutely. 101 00:06:19.680 --> 00:06:22.040 You talk about in the book too, that you said 102 00:06:22.079 --> 00:06:26.360 in the mid eighteen hundreds, two thirds of known millionaires 103 00:06:26.639 --> 00:06:30.160 lived in this area before the devastation of the Civil War. 104 00:06:31.319 --> 00:06:35.399 Absolutely all along the Mississippi River corridor from New Orleans 105 00:06:35.399 --> 00:06:39.959 to Natchez. You did have most of the most of 106 00:06:39.959 --> 00:06:44.519 the country's millionaires living near huge sugar plantations. A lot 107 00:06:44.560 --> 00:06:47.600 of wealth and then after the Civil War, of course 108 00:06:48.879 --> 00:06:52.480 that way of life was over, but some of the families, 109 00:06:52.600 --> 00:06:55.240 like this one, we're still able to hold onto the land. 110 00:06:55.680 --> 00:06:59.800 The lifestyle would never be elegant, but it was still 111 00:06:59.800 --> 00:07:02.639 a wonderful life on these old places. 112 00:07:03.839 --> 00:07:06.160 Now you also talk about because of the Civil War, 113 00:07:06.279 --> 00:07:09.160 many of the men were killed, so it left an 114 00:07:09.160 --> 00:07:14.319 opportunity in a old boys kind of world, for women 115 00:07:14.360 --> 00:07:16.079 to take over these plantations. 116 00:07:16.240 --> 00:07:16.959 Afterwards. 117 00:07:17.959 --> 00:07:20.759 Well, you know, during the Civil War and after the 118 00:07:20.800 --> 00:07:23.319 Civil War, the men were either dead or gone during 119 00:07:23.319 --> 00:07:25.639 the Civil War, and the ones who came home from 120 00:07:25.639 --> 00:07:29.839 the war were either so disabled or so demoralized that 121 00:07:29.959 --> 00:07:33.160 they were not able to resume the roles that they 122 00:07:33.160 --> 00:07:36.959 had played during the war. The women, some very strong women, 123 00:07:37.120 --> 00:07:40.680 stepped up and ran the plantations, and they had to 124 00:07:40.720 --> 00:07:43.920 continue to do that after the Civil War. So you 125 00:07:44.000 --> 00:07:47.319 had some very strong women all across the South, and 126 00:07:47.480 --> 00:07:51.879 particularly in this house. It was usually the women who 127 00:07:52.519 --> 00:07:55.079 not only were the strong ones, but outlived the men 128 00:07:55.199 --> 00:07:59.800 by many years. So it was a real matriarchy here. 129 00:08:01.879 --> 00:08:04.680 Now, tell us about your writing career and the kinds 130 00:08:04.720 --> 00:08:08.079 of books that you have written and had written up 131 00:08:08.079 --> 00:08:08.680 to this date. 132 00:08:10.439 --> 00:08:13.079 Well, of course, as a mother. I wrote children's books 133 00:08:13.399 --> 00:08:16.160 when my children were small, and then I wrote travel 134 00:08:16.199 --> 00:08:22.240 books and very much involved in historic preservation. And as 135 00:08:22.360 --> 00:08:29.800 Louisiana has such a vulnerable, fragile environment here and culture, 136 00:08:29.920 --> 00:08:34.360 I had written a lot about preserving the culture. So 137 00:08:34.840 --> 00:08:38.120 I've written I guess twenty two books, some more substantial 138 00:08:38.159 --> 00:08:42.279 than others. But I also had written two crime books 139 00:08:42.799 --> 00:08:47.799 on true stories from Angola Plantations, which is now the 140 00:08:47.919 --> 00:08:55.639 Louisiana State Penitentiary very near here, and had been plantations, 141 00:08:55.679 --> 00:08:59.840 and they put them all together and started this eighteenthou 142 00:09:00.159 --> 00:09:05.919 an Acre Penitentiary there and behind every door there there 143 00:09:06.039 --> 00:09:09.639 was a very interesting story and a lesson to learn. 144 00:09:10.559 --> 00:09:15.399 And so the crime books that I wrote were extremely interesting. 145 00:09:16.039 --> 00:09:20.120 As a crime writer, I had certainly never intended to 146 00:09:20.159 --> 00:09:24.240 be more than an objective observer. But when I became 147 00:09:24.279 --> 00:09:28.120 a victim, it really was a golden opportunity for me. 148 00:09:30.039 --> 00:09:33.759 Now tell us about your to describe. I mean it 149 00:09:33.840 --> 00:09:36.000 must be hard for you, but to a certain extent, 150 00:09:36.039 --> 00:09:38.960 tell us about the kind of character that you have been. 151 00:09:39.600 --> 00:09:42.679 You'd said before that you met Murray. You had three 152 00:09:42.720 --> 00:09:47.840 previous marriages, So tell us about your marriages, and if 153 00:09:47.840 --> 00:09:49.679 you could a little bit about your character. 154 00:09:51.440 --> 00:09:55.240 Well, I went to college in Virginia, and then I 155 00:09:55.559 --> 00:09:58.200 worked in Washington, d C. For a couple of years, 156 00:09:58.279 --> 00:10:01.000 and I went to the West Coast and worked writing 157 00:10:01.039 --> 00:10:03.879 for magazines out there and went to graduate school out there. 158 00:10:04.639 --> 00:10:09.559 So it's not as if I have stayed here continually. 159 00:10:09.759 --> 00:10:12.360 And really it was very helpful to me to be away, 160 00:10:13.360 --> 00:10:18.639 because when you're in a small town, it's easy to 161 00:10:18.639 --> 00:10:22.919 succumb to the small town mentality, Whereas when you come 162 00:10:23.159 --> 00:10:27.279 back from other areas, you realize that you're not missing 163 00:10:27.279 --> 00:10:30.639 anything anywhere else. You can be satisfied with the small 164 00:10:30.720 --> 00:10:35.480 town life and not intimidated by the small town mentality. 165 00:10:37.120 --> 00:10:42.240 I started writing books when my children were small. My 166 00:10:42.320 --> 00:10:47.679 first husband was from Virginia, and we had a wonderful 167 00:10:48.320 --> 00:10:51.399 footloose life right after college and did a lot of 168 00:10:51.480 --> 00:10:54.399 traveling and everything. And then when it was time to 169 00:10:54.440 --> 00:10:59.720 settle down, it was pretty well me who who assumed 170 00:10:59.720 --> 00:11:02.320 they were responsibility of earning a living and taking care 171 00:11:02.360 --> 00:11:07.320 of children. And so that marriage ended in divorce. And 172 00:11:07.360 --> 00:11:14.320 then I married two more times and was here was 173 00:11:14.399 --> 00:11:18.399 here in Saint Francis, bill from that point on, and 174 00:11:19.120 --> 00:11:23.799 my last husband was someone who to whom I was 175 00:11:23.840 --> 00:11:31.600 attracted by his intelligengensen, his access to stories that I 176 00:11:31.720 --> 00:11:36.200 really wanted to write about. And so that was my 177 00:11:36.440 --> 00:11:41.279 fourth marriage, and he had also been married before, and 178 00:11:41.360 --> 00:11:44.720 so we were married for seven years. I would have 179 00:11:44.840 --> 00:11:50.080 to say that as a wife, I don't like to 180 00:11:50.080 --> 00:11:52.080 be told what to do, and as a person, I 181 00:11:52.120 --> 00:11:53.840 don't like to be told of to do, and so 182 00:11:54.720 --> 00:11:58.799 I probably am not the ideal servant wife for sure, 183 00:11:59.039 --> 00:12:06.879 But I am an independent, independent person. And my fourth 184 00:12:06.960 --> 00:12:11.399 husband was someone who had been in corrections as his 185 00:12:11.720 --> 00:12:18.360 lifetime career and had to exercise absolute control over the 186 00:12:18.440 --> 00:12:23.000 every situation, and that did not translate well into our marriage. 187 00:12:23.039 --> 00:12:25.240 I think that was the main issue there. 188 00:12:26.600 --> 00:12:29.039 Well, let's go back here because we've got to talk 189 00:12:29.080 --> 00:12:33.159 about your business and your family. You have a daughter 190 00:12:33.240 --> 00:12:36.240 named Chase and a son, so tell us about their ages, 191 00:12:36.320 --> 00:12:39.200 and let's go back in time in terms of before 192 00:12:39.240 --> 00:12:43.120 you met Murray. You alluded to what attracted you to 193 00:12:43.200 --> 00:12:47.080 Murray Henderson, but let's talk about what the age difference 194 00:12:47.320 --> 00:12:52.159 was and what your particular familiar situation was in terms 195 00:12:52.159 --> 00:12:56.399 of your daughter and your son, and then talk about 196 00:12:56.720 --> 00:12:58.279 how you met Murray Henderson. 197 00:13:00.159 --> 00:13:04.840 With my daughter at the time of this book, my 198 00:13:05.000 --> 00:13:08.240 daughter was in college and was going to Emory for 199 00:13:08.360 --> 00:13:12.799 her senior year. My son was twelve years old and 200 00:13:12.919 --> 00:13:17.879 lived in the house with me and Murray. I knew 201 00:13:17.960 --> 00:13:22.200 him through the Episcopal Church, and we had had been, 202 00:13:22.960 --> 00:13:29.120 you know, socially acquainted, but not close. And he was 203 00:13:29.240 --> 00:13:35.879 considerably older than I was twenty four years but he 204 00:13:36.039 --> 00:13:41.440 was very entertaining and very bright, as I said, and 205 00:13:41.519 --> 00:13:44.039 I had a great deal of respect for him as 206 00:13:44.080 --> 00:13:53.159 a as a progressive corrections administrator, and also very attracted 207 00:13:53.200 --> 00:13:58.799 to him because of the access to criminal records and 208 00:13:59.679 --> 00:14:04.759 story like that. And so my son lived in the 209 00:14:04.840 --> 00:14:08.679 house with us when we married, and my daughter had 210 00:14:08.720 --> 00:14:11.279 gone off to Emory in Atlanta. 211 00:14:13.039 --> 00:14:16.720 Now this is we're talking about nineteen ninety correct when 212 00:14:16.759 --> 00:14:17.720 you got married. 213 00:14:17.679 --> 00:14:21.720 Ninety seven, Well, nineteen ninety we married. Nineteen ninety seven 214 00:14:21.879 --> 00:14:23.320 is when the book takes place. 215 00:14:23.919 --> 00:14:28.519 Right now, tell us about Murray Henderson. And again you 216 00:14:29.000 --> 00:14:33.679 talked about him being a real reformer in terms of corrections, 217 00:14:33.240 --> 00:14:36.559 and that was part of the attraction you had to 218 00:14:36.679 --> 00:14:39.960 him as well. So tell us about before we go 219 00:14:40.000 --> 00:14:42.759 into the books that you've written about Angola. 220 00:14:42.919 --> 00:14:44.840 Tell us about Angola. 221 00:14:47.480 --> 00:14:52.159 Well, his career in correction started in Tennessee. Then he 222 00:14:52.240 --> 00:14:55.559 went to Iowa as the warden Mayor, went back to 223 00:14:55.639 --> 00:15:00.480 Tennessee as the warden of the Tennessee State Attention Tree, 224 00:15:00.799 --> 00:15:04.360 and then came to Angola at a time when the 225 00:15:04.399 --> 00:15:06.559 prison was was horrible. 226 00:15:07.240 --> 00:15:07.399 UH. 227 00:15:07.440 --> 00:15:10.840 There were huge abuses. It was a very dangerous place 228 00:15:11.000 --> 00:15:15.440 for inmates as well as as corrections officers. UH. It's 229 00:15:15.600 --> 00:15:21.399 very isolated, and it's it's purposely isolated. It's surrounded on 230 00:15:21.480 --> 00:15:24.519 three sides by the Mississippi River and then the other 231 00:15:24.600 --> 00:15:28.799 side by the Tunica Hills, which are almost impassable, UH, 232 00:15:28.840 --> 00:15:34.240 to make it difficult for escapes to take place. It's 233 00:15:33.799 --> 00:15:38.000 it's so isolated that it was extremely difficult to attract 234 00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:44.320 competent employees there. There were certainly a number of good, 235 00:15:44.480 --> 00:15:49.039 dedicated employees, but there were also a number who had 236 00:15:49.240 --> 00:15:53.960 issues with control and violence, and it was just a terrible, 237 00:15:54.200 --> 00:15:59.639 terrible place the inmates innate. Guards were given guns to 238 00:15:59.639 --> 00:16:03.279 to because there was very little staff there and it 239 00:16:03.440 --> 00:16:07.360 just was rife with abuses, and inmates would sleep with 240 00:16:07.440 --> 00:16:11.720 sears catalogs taped to their chests to ward off the 241 00:16:11.799 --> 00:16:19.440 knives in the night. They brought in some progressive corrections administrators, 242 00:16:19.559 --> 00:16:23.320 and Murray came in at that point as the warden 243 00:16:24.039 --> 00:16:30.519 and was very much resented by the entrenched hierarchy at Angola, 244 00:16:30.840 --> 00:16:34.279 and so he had issues not only with with the 245 00:16:34.320 --> 00:16:39.240 inmates but with the staff and tried very hard to 246 00:16:39.360 --> 00:16:44.240 implement some good reforms that were very much needed. Also, 247 00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:47.879 the government had to step in uh and oversee a 248 00:16:47.960 --> 00:16:49.759 lot of the reforms there. 249 00:16:52.240 --> 00:16:55.759 Now in his tenure. There was also the first correctional 250 00:16:55.759 --> 00:16:58.279 officer to be killed was an Angola, wasn't it. 251 00:16:59.000 --> 00:17:01.480 That's correct, And that is a case that is still 252 00:17:01.519 --> 00:17:05.119 in the system today. One of the killers, just this 253 00:17:05.160 --> 00:17:10.319 week has been ordered released after forty years in isolation. 254 00:17:13.240 --> 00:17:18.519 It's a very interesting case that involved not only Murray, 255 00:17:18.599 --> 00:17:23.160 but actually involved me as well because it was one 256 00:17:23.160 --> 00:17:25.799 of the cases that I had included in my book 257 00:17:25.880 --> 00:17:30.640 Dying to Tell, And when they threw out the indictment 258 00:17:30.720 --> 00:17:33.559 and had to reindict him, I was on the grand 259 00:17:33.720 --> 00:17:36.480 urse call for the grand jury and kept asking that 260 00:17:36.559 --> 00:17:39.640 I be dismissed because I had written about it, but 261 00:17:40.440 --> 00:17:42.599 they kept me on the grand jury, which of course 262 00:17:43.039 --> 00:17:47.000 was grounds for appel although it was denied and it's 263 00:17:46.599 --> 00:17:48.279 still going on. Today. 264 00:17:50.759 --> 00:17:53.640 Now you also include a story of I think it's 265 00:17:53.680 --> 00:17:58.240 an author of Peter Maas in the nineteen seventy five 266 00:17:58.319 --> 00:18:01.759 to nineteen eighty in Tennessee the influence peddling scandals. So 267 00:18:01.799 --> 00:18:04.759 tell us a little bit about that and the Marie 268 00:18:04.759 --> 00:18:08.279 a true story by Peter maz Well. 269 00:18:08.880 --> 00:18:13.720 Marie Riganni, who was was there at the time when 270 00:18:13.799 --> 00:18:18.200 Governor Blanton and a couple of other high officials were 271 00:18:18.279 --> 00:18:22.480 sent to prison for for influence peddling, and Murray was 272 00:18:22.480 --> 00:18:25.839 the warden of the penitentiary and then became commissioner of 273 00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:29.920 correction in Tennessee. Uh, he was never charged with anything, 274 00:18:30.519 --> 00:18:33.400 but at that point he left and came to Angola. 275 00:18:34.440 --> 00:18:37.960 That was that was what sent him out of Tennessee. 276 00:18:38.519 --> 00:18:44.440 I think he left a number of high positions under 277 00:18:44.480 --> 00:18:50.519 a little cloud, shall we say. And Marie I actually 278 00:18:50.640 --> 00:18:53.440 spoke with her, and she she did say that she 279 00:18:53.640 --> 00:18:57.559 did not think that he was guilty of any criminal activity, 280 00:18:57.640 --> 00:18:59.720 but just being one of the good old boys and 281 00:18:59.759 --> 00:19:03.799 not trying to make ways, although there were certainly some 282 00:19:03.839 --> 00:19:06.680 criminal activity in the in the corrections department. 283 00:19:08.880 --> 00:19:11.880 Now this is very important to the story that he 284 00:19:12.039 --> 00:19:13.119 was heading. 285 00:19:12.960 --> 00:19:19.039 A hospital or prison for the criminally insane with and 286 00:19:19.039 --> 00:19:21.279 and so he was at the head of this forensic 287 00:19:21.359 --> 00:19:28.000 hospital so which would have him meet and establish relationships 288 00:19:28.000 --> 00:19:30.200 with psychologists and psychiatrists. 289 00:19:30.319 --> 00:19:31.680 So tell us a little bit about this. 290 00:19:35.680 --> 00:19:38.640 They call it Policiana forensic. And he was the head 291 00:19:38.759 --> 00:19:43.880 of the facility where they would send criminals who were 292 00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:50.279 having their their sas asked, you know, for criminal trials. 293 00:19:50.480 --> 00:19:56.440 And so he knew all of the psychiatrists. He knew 294 00:19:56.440 --> 00:20:01.400 all the psychologists. He was very familiar year with how 295 00:20:01.519 --> 00:20:07.720 the insanity defense works. And this I think really gave 296 00:20:07.799 --> 00:20:10.920 him some good ideas on how to commit the perfect crime. 297 00:20:14.359 --> 00:20:17.119 Now, you talk about that in the course of the 298 00:20:17.240 --> 00:20:20.839 research for these two books, and the idea for these 299 00:20:20.880 --> 00:20:25.240 two books was basically your idea, and really you did 300 00:20:25.720 --> 00:20:29.519 the research and the writing. But it also brought you 301 00:20:29.839 --> 00:20:34.920 together on the road in motel rooms, and your romance 302 00:20:35.039 --> 00:20:38.559 was sparked. Despite this twenty four to twenty five year difference. 303 00:20:39.720 --> 00:20:43.880 Tell us just a little bit about how and because 304 00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:46.359 you were married and he was married as well, so 305 00:20:46.400 --> 00:20:51.880 tell us about how this romance developed and what you 306 00:20:51.960 --> 00:20:53.359 have to do as a result of this. 307 00:20:54.799 --> 00:20:55.680 Budding romance. 308 00:20:58.720 --> 00:21:03.720 Well, didn't go into it with the idea of having 309 00:21:03.720 --> 00:21:06.680 any involvement with him other than professional, and I called 310 00:21:06.720 --> 00:21:11.240 him mister Henderson, and his ideas were very different. And 311 00:21:11.319 --> 00:21:14.440 he had been trying to get involved with me for 312 00:21:14.480 --> 00:21:16.960 a number of years, which I did not even realize. 313 00:21:17.000 --> 00:21:20.599 He would invite me to come to his retirement program 314 00:21:20.839 --> 00:21:24.960 and have designs to go out for lunch and all this, 315 00:21:25.079 --> 00:21:27.079 and I would show up with my husband, you know, 316 00:21:27.279 --> 00:21:33.400 and several instances like that. After a while, you know, 317 00:21:33.519 --> 00:21:36.839 you get close to somebody and you have respect for 318 00:21:36.920 --> 00:21:44.119 their opinions and their intelligence, and the just developed, you know, 319 00:21:44.359 --> 00:21:50.400 just grew into what seemed to be a nice situation. 320 00:21:52.160 --> 00:21:56.000 He had been married for a number of years, but 321 00:21:56.720 --> 00:21:57.920 somewhat unhappily. 322 00:22:00.559 --> 00:22:04.519 Okay, Round two, Name something that's not boring. 323 00:22:04.799 --> 00:22:08.960 Laundry, a book club, computer solitaire. 324 00:22:09.160 --> 00:22:13.880 Huh oh, sorry, we were looking for chumba casino. 325 00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:16.119 Chum. 326 00:22:16.160 --> 00:22:19.039 That's right, chumbucasino dot com as over one hundred casino 327 00:22:19.079 --> 00:22:21.240 style games joined today and the play for free for 328 00:22:21.319 --> 00:22:23.279 your chance to redeem some serious prizes. 329 00:22:24.440 --> 00:22:26.920 Chum chumbacasino dot com. 330 00:22:27.440 --> 00:22:29.000 We're believed in my law eighty plus stirs the conditions 331 00:22:29.000 --> 00:22:29.839 of blue website. 332 00:22:29.599 --> 00:22:33.119 Details and I was looking for a little more than 333 00:22:33.160 --> 00:22:35.319 what I was having in my marriage. All I had 334 00:22:35.319 --> 00:22:38.440 a very good husband at the time, and so we 335 00:22:38.559 --> 00:22:42.640 both divorced and married in nineteen ninety and were married 336 00:22:42.680 --> 00:22:47.640 for seven years. We did two books together starting in 337 00:22:47.720 --> 00:22:55.759 nineteen ninety, and had had a had a contentious relationship 338 00:22:56.279 --> 00:22:57.039 from the beginning. 339 00:22:59.039 --> 00:23:02.960 So what might have cemented this somewhat is that he 340 00:23:03.039 --> 00:23:05.599 had said that he was very impressed with your writing 341 00:23:06.599 --> 00:23:11.319 again as well, and so very flattering for you as 342 00:23:11.319 --> 00:23:15.000 a writer also, and you said you were enthralled with 343 00:23:15.440 --> 00:23:20.119 you know, his marvelous mind when you do meet and 344 00:23:20.240 --> 00:23:23.559 with this twenty four year old difference in age, and 345 00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:26.880 just coming from a marriage where you have to divorce 346 00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:31.359 your husband and he has divorce his wife. What was 347 00:23:31.400 --> 00:23:35.680 the response from your children and your family to Murray 348 00:23:35.720 --> 00:23:37.000 Henderson coming into your life. 349 00:23:38.079 --> 00:23:41.599 Oh, I think they were all horribed. My daughter never 350 00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:46.279 did like him, could barely tolerate him, and got out 351 00:23:46.279 --> 00:23:49.119 of the house as soon as she could. My son 352 00:23:49.240 --> 00:23:53.119 was only twelve years old, you know, and Murray made 353 00:23:53.480 --> 00:23:57.720 an effort with him. They went fishing once or twice, 354 00:23:57.799 --> 00:24:01.880 and then of course mari age, you know, his idea 355 00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:05.039 of spending quality time was to watch the MacNeil Lear 356 00:24:05.200 --> 00:24:08.279 report on TV, you know, and a twelve year old 357 00:24:08.359 --> 00:24:12.680 is not going to be that impressed. But Stuart was 358 00:24:12.680 --> 00:24:15.200 a sweet little boy, and he you know, he tried 359 00:24:15.240 --> 00:24:18.359 to get along with him. My daughter never did care 360 00:24:18.440 --> 00:24:19.039 for him at all. 361 00:24:21.480 --> 00:24:26.240 What was your relationship characterized by in terms of his disposition? 362 00:24:27.680 --> 00:24:32.119 What was his nature like? Especially in the beginning. 363 00:24:33.240 --> 00:24:39.640 He was very very good to me. I never heard 364 00:24:39.720 --> 00:24:43.960 him raise his voice. I never saw any violence at all. 365 00:24:45.039 --> 00:24:48.200 He had had a drinking problem while he was at Angola, 366 00:24:48.279 --> 00:24:51.119 but I never saw him take a drink. He did 367 00:24:51.119 --> 00:24:55.720 not drink at all while we were married. We had 368 00:24:56.359 --> 00:25:01.400 a very cordial relationship, but underneath to serve was always 369 00:25:01.400 --> 00:25:03.480 a struggle for control. 370 00:25:04.480 --> 00:25:10.480 Always was he did he exhibit some jealousy. You talk 371 00:25:10.559 --> 00:25:17.799 about your longtime carpenter and partner restorer of your plantation, 372 00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:21.599 the Butler Plantation. His name is Burnett, and you were 373 00:25:21.599 --> 00:25:24.720 friends with him and his wife. So was he jealous 374 00:25:24.759 --> 00:25:27.559 of that relationship that you had with Burnette? 375 00:25:27.839 --> 00:25:30.720 He was jealous of every relationship I had, even with 376 00:25:30.799 --> 00:25:36.680 the cleaning staff. He was very demanding that he get 377 00:25:36.720 --> 00:25:39.960 all the attention and always be the center of everything. 378 00:25:41.119 --> 00:25:45.480 A wonderful writer. Abigail Paget from San Diego would come 379 00:25:45.519 --> 00:25:48.599 and stay here and we would all go out to dinner, 380 00:25:48.640 --> 00:25:51.640 and she's the one who wrote the introduction to the book, 381 00:25:52.240 --> 00:25:56.279 and she comments on him. She and I would always 382 00:25:56.480 --> 00:25:58.759 talk all through dinner, and he would just sit there 383 00:25:58.920 --> 00:26:03.119 and wait for the conversation to center around him, you know, 384 00:26:03.240 --> 00:26:05.039 and then he would participate. 385 00:26:05.119 --> 00:26:05.880 But he just. 386 00:26:07.319 --> 00:26:11.200 He always needed to be the center of everything. He 387 00:26:11.880 --> 00:26:16.160 resented any time that I spent with anyone else, and 388 00:26:16.279 --> 00:26:21.720 he resented any decision that I made without talking to him. 389 00:26:21.799 --> 00:26:24.640 And of course the business was mine and I didn't 390 00:26:24.640 --> 00:26:28.240 feel I needed to consult him on anything, although I 391 00:26:28.279 --> 00:26:33.599 would try to include him anything, but he always had 392 00:26:33.640 --> 00:26:35.079 to be the center of everything. 393 00:26:38.319 --> 00:26:40.720 This might seem like I'm prying, but I think this 394 00:26:40.839 --> 00:26:43.599 is I know this is important to the story. What 395 00:26:43.799 --> 00:26:46.680 was You just mentioned that you didn't need him for 396 00:26:46.720 --> 00:26:49.599 the business. Now I'll mention that you were forty six, 397 00:26:49.680 --> 00:26:55.519 he was seventy. He was basically not retired. But you 398 00:26:55.559 --> 00:26:59.200 say he wasn't involved with your business. So tell us 399 00:27:00.119 --> 00:27:05.519 exactly what the relationship was often in terms of him 400 00:27:05.559 --> 00:27:08.279 moving in, but what was his role in terms of 401 00:27:08.960 --> 00:27:11.759