WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.440 --> 00:00:01.879 Well, let me to tell you what you would have 2 00:00:01.919 --> 00:00:02.720 seen and heard. 3 00:00:03.080 --> 00:00:05.559 If you'll not be pleasants listening, if you're at lunch, 4 00:00:05.679 --> 00:00:07.320 or if you have no appetite, now is a good 5 00:00:07.320 --> 00:00:08.160 time to switch. 6 00:00:07.919 --> 00:00:16.359 Off the radio, an ancestor of my main chaine. If 7 00:00:16.359 --> 00:00:20.079 you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however. 8 00:00:19.760 --> 00:00:26.239 Improbable, evasion, Russian banji out of it, you don't GENEROPI one. 9 00:00:26.120 --> 00:00:28.399 Who knows that a lot of work I will needs 10 00:00:28.480 --> 00:00:31.800 by the thousand year. I wish I could say tonight 11 00:00:32.240 --> 00:00:34.240 that a lasting peace is inside. 12 00:00:34.799 --> 00:00:36.520 I don't see any laughing dream. 13 00:00:36.640 --> 00:00:38.399 I see an a laughing night. Moore. 14 00:00:42.560 --> 00:00:46.560 I as if we care for Asu to kail, if 15 00:00:46.560 --> 00:00:47.840 we care for assure to gail. 16 00:00:48.200 --> 00:00:50.560 If some say the world. 17 00:00:50.320 --> 00:00:52.399 Will end, empire, some stay Anie. 18 00:00:52.960 --> 00:00:55.600 From what I have tasted of desire, I hold those 19 00:00:55.679 --> 00:00:56.560 of flavor fire. 20 00:00:57.320 --> 00:01:00.079 But if it had to perish twice, I think I 21 00:01:00.079 --> 00:01:03.000 know I'm not to hate to say that the destruction 22 00:01:03.159 --> 00:01:05.400 Ice is also great, and look sufficed. 23 00:01:12.280 --> 00:01:13.599 This is history. 24 00:01:20.159 --> 00:01:22.480 Well, it has not come up as much as one 25 00:01:22.560 --> 00:01:23.280 might expect. 26 00:01:23.760 --> 00:01:26.079 I do sometimes get asked why I've spent. 27 00:01:26.000 --> 00:01:29.239 So much time three years, to be exact, talking about 28 00:01:29.239 --> 00:01:34.680 the most infamous Grand Muffy of Jerusalem, Hajamin now Husseini. Now, 29 00:01:34.719 --> 00:01:37.879 this is a fair question, and while some asking might 30 00:01:38.000 --> 00:01:41.599 have some motivated reasoning at work, I figured it was 31 00:01:41.640 --> 00:01:44.480 worth delving into a little bit, if only as a 32 00:01:44.480 --> 00:01:48.359 brief addendum to the well the six hour beast I 33 00:01:48.400 --> 00:01:49.760 recently unleashed. 34 00:01:49.400 --> 00:01:50.079 Upon all of you. 35 00:01:53.000 --> 00:01:58.120 So why does Hajami now Husseini matter? To state it plainly, 36 00:01:58.359 --> 00:02:01.480 and to leave you with perhaps a more pointed example, 37 00:02:02.319 --> 00:02:05.920 Hajamen matters not just because of the significant effect that 38 00:02:06.000 --> 00:02:10.159 his rhetoric, actions, and even mere existence has had on 39 00:02:10.199 --> 00:02:14.360 the historical memory of the birthing pangs of Israel and 40 00:02:14.439 --> 00:02:18.879 the image cousured by his most fervent, rabid foes. There is, 41 00:02:19.080 --> 00:02:23.560 in my view, much more to it than that. I 42 00:02:23.599 --> 00:02:26.800 would like to believe that I have demonstrated this very 43 00:02:26.840 --> 00:02:30.080 effectively in the most recent episode of the podcast and 44 00:02:30.479 --> 00:02:34.159 other writing and podcasting that I've done on the subject 45 00:02:34.199 --> 00:02:37.000 of Haja Mein, or even just on subjects that relate 46 00:02:37.199 --> 00:02:43.120 to Haja Mein. Hajjamen matters and must be brought from 47 00:02:43.199 --> 00:02:46.960 the dust bin of history to be carefully examined, in 48 00:02:47.000 --> 00:02:51.479 my opinion, because, like all monsters from our past. He 49 00:02:51.599 --> 00:02:54.960 was still a man and a man with agency, just 50 00:02:55.120 --> 00:02:58.680 like the rest of us. There is a reason the 51 00:02:58.800 --> 00:03:03.400 relationship with his father is what opened the main narrative 52 00:03:03.560 --> 00:03:08.879 of the most recent episode of history. Impossible to restate 53 00:03:08.960 --> 00:03:13.120 the gist of that mini meditation on the influence fathers 54 00:03:13.159 --> 00:03:18.240 have on their sons. This influence can create ripple effects 55 00:03:18.360 --> 00:03:21.560 across time that can be felt many many decades after 56 00:03:21.680 --> 00:03:26.479 those fathers and sons have shuffled off this mortal coil. 57 00:03:26.639 --> 00:03:30.039 This was as made obvious by the episode's narrative thrust 58 00:03:30.800 --> 00:03:35.759 referring to the influence that Hajamin al Husseini's father, Muhammad 59 00:03:35.759 --> 00:03:40.759 Tahira al Husseini had on the future Grand Mufty, namely 60 00:03:41.000 --> 00:03:44.439 his views on what would come to be known as Zionism, 61 00:03:44.879 --> 00:03:48.439 or as to Hear likely saw it, the encroachment of 62 00:03:48.520 --> 00:03:53.840 mostly European Jewish emigres on his decidedly purer to keyword 63 00:03:53.919 --> 00:03:59.199 there Arab homeland. The circumstances of this. 64 00:03:59.240 --> 00:04:03.479 Influence of to Hear on Hajja Mean are what is. 65 00:04:03.520 --> 00:04:06.159 Unique to the story of Hajja Mean and thus what 66 00:04:06.319 --> 00:04:10.919 makes him in part significant. But the influence to Hear 67 00:04:11.080 --> 00:04:16.639 had on his young son arguably was not that significant. 68 00:04:17.160 --> 00:04:20.160 We are all influenced by our parents, whether through their 69 00:04:20.199 --> 00:04:24.079 actions or through their absence, and there can, indeed be 70 00:04:24.240 --> 00:04:29.519 long term consequences of such influence. Those consequences are what 71 00:04:29.560 --> 00:04:32.839 makes Hanja Mean unique in the historical record, but the 72 00:04:32.879 --> 00:04:36.120 fact that they at least partly stem from the influence 73 00:04:36.120 --> 00:04:39.480 of his father are not what makes Haja Mean unique 74 00:04:39.600 --> 00:04:45.480 in the historical record. And perhaps paradoxically, that is what 75 00:04:45.519 --> 00:04:51.519 I believe makes him important and worth discussing. I say 76 00:04:51.519 --> 00:04:56.399 paradoxically because it hardly makes him unique, but it also 77 00:04:56.439 --> 00:05:00.000 reveals the human essence at his core, which was always 78 00:05:00.240 --> 00:05:03.959 there within him, even as his soul clearly rotted away 79 00:05:04.399 --> 00:05:07.360 over the years with the choices that he made and 80 00:05:07.399 --> 00:05:12.240 the hatreds that he carried. To make this point clear, 81 00:05:12.319 --> 00:05:17.079 let's ask, does this parable of paternal influence not apply 82 00:05:17.800 --> 00:05:23.600 to other controversial leaders in world history, even the most bloodthirsty, 83 00:05:24.279 --> 00:05:30.600 even the Stalins, the Polepots, the Hitlers. Indeed, I believe 84 00:05:30.759 --> 00:05:35.480 it does. In fact, it applies very neatly to another 85 00:05:35.560 --> 00:05:39.240 controversial leader in this nearly century and a half long conflict. 86 00:05:39.920 --> 00:05:43.480 More importantly, a man who is quite literally on the 87 00:05:43.519 --> 00:05:49.360 opposite side of this conflict, that is a one Prime Minister, 88 00:05:49.879 --> 00:05:58.240 Benjamin Netanyahu Nettan Yahoo, like Haja Mean, grew up in 89 00:05:58.279 --> 00:06:01.199 the shadow and indeed overcame the ship, at least to 90 00:06:01.279 --> 00:06:07.000 a certain extent, of his father, ben Zion Netanyahu. Ben 91 00:06:07.120 --> 00:06:11.519 Zion was a formidable presence in Israel's history, having served 92 00:06:11.560 --> 00:06:15.519 as secretary to the infamous head of the Revisionist Zionists, 93 00:06:15.920 --> 00:06:20.759 Zaiev Jabotinsky. He lived to be one hundred and two 94 00:06:20.879 --> 00:06:24.279 years old, passing away in just twenty twelve, and his 95 00:06:24.399 --> 00:06:29.800 presence especially loomed large over his son. As Jeffrey Goldberg 96 00:06:29.839 --> 00:06:32.240 wrote in the Pages of The Atlantic back in the 97 00:06:32.240 --> 00:06:36.439 September twenty ten issue, quote always in the back of 98 00:06:36.439 --> 00:06:39.920 Bibi's mind is ben Zion. One of the Prime Minister's 99 00:06:39.959 --> 00:06:42.920 friends told me, he worries that his father will think 100 00:06:42.959 --> 00:06:47.600 he is weak. Ben Zion, by all accounts, was worshiped 101 00:06:47.639 --> 00:06:50.800 by his sons and their childhood, and today, the sixty 102 00:06:50.879 --> 00:06:53.680 year old Benjamin, who has been known to act in 103 00:06:53.759 --> 00:06:58.720 charmless ways, conspicuously upholds the Fifth Commandment when discussing his 104 00:06:58.720 --> 00:07:04.120 father at a party marking Benzion's one hundredth birthday held 105 00:07:04.120 --> 00:07:07.160 this past march at the Monoch and Began Heritage Center 106 00:07:07.199 --> 00:07:10.839 in Jerusalem, before an assembly that included the President of Israel, 107 00:07:11.079 --> 00:07:15.560 Shimone Perez. Benjamin credited his father with forecasting the Shoa 108 00:07:16.079 --> 00:07:20.360 and in the early nineteen nineties, predicting that Muslim extremists 109 00:07:20.360 --> 00:07:22.720 would try to bring down the Twin Towers in New York. 110 00:07:23.560 --> 00:07:27.040 Many people in Lecud party circles have told me that 111 00:07:27.079 --> 00:07:30.319 those who discount ben Zion's influence on his son do 112 00:07:30.480 --> 00:07:33.959 so at their peril. This was the father giving his 113 00:07:34.079 --> 00:07:37.319 son history's marching orders. One of the attendees told me, 114 00:07:37.839 --> 00:07:42.519 I watched Bibby while his father spoke. He was completely absorbed. 115 00:07:48.240 --> 00:07:52.000 How much of Bibby's policy decisions, including those related to 116 00:07:52.079 --> 00:07:54.759 West Bank settlements, as well as his post ten to 117 00:07:54.759 --> 00:07:59.120 seven policies, are related directly to ben Zion's influence, It 118 00:07:59.240 --> 00:08:04.720 is obviously impossible to say for certain. However, it is 119 00:08:04.800 --> 00:08:09.720 also impossible, given the evidence provided by Goldberg and the 120 00:08:09.759 --> 00:08:13.639 sources with whom he talked to, claim that there was 121 00:08:13.720 --> 00:08:15.680 and remains no influence. 122 00:08:17.160 --> 00:08:17.720 Ben Zion. 123 00:08:17.800 --> 00:08:23.079 Natanyahu, in the tradition of revision of Zionism's infamous and tractability, 124 00:08:23.600 --> 00:08:26.800 would proclaim in a terse speech given at his one 125 00:08:26.839 --> 00:08:31.920 hundredth birthday party. Quote from the Iranian side, we hear 126 00:08:31.959 --> 00:08:35.279 pledges that sued in a matter of days, even the 127 00:08:35.399 --> 00:08:38.000 Zionist movement will be put to an end and there 128 00:08:38.000 --> 00:08:41.360 will be no more Zionists in the world. One is 129 00:08:41.360 --> 00:08:44.120 supposed to conclude from this that the Jews of the 130 00:08:44.159 --> 00:08:47.799 Land of Israel will be annihilated, while the Jews of America, 131 00:08:48.039 --> 00:08:51.279 whose leaders refuse to pressure Iran, are being told in 132 00:08:51.320 --> 00:08:54.799 a hinted fashion that the annihilation of the Jews will 133 00:08:54.840 --> 00:08:59.279 not include them. The Jewish people are making their position 134 00:08:59.440 --> 00:09:03.120 clear and putting faith in their military power. The nation 135 00:09:03.240 --> 00:09:06.039 of Israel is showing the world today how a state 136 00:09:06.120 --> 00:09:10.240 should behave when it stands before an existential threat, by 137 00:09:10.240 --> 00:09:13.519 looking danger in the eye and calmly considering what should 138 00:09:13.559 --> 00:09:16.080 be done and what can be done, and to be 139 00:09:16.159 --> 00:09:18.840 ready to enter the fray at the moment there is 140 00:09:18.879 --> 00:09:27.200 a reasonable chance of success. Much can be gleaned from 141 00:09:27.240 --> 00:09:30.440 this outlook, both related to geopolitical news at the time 142 00:09:30.519 --> 00:09:33.399 and how it is informed by a well at this 143 00:09:33.480 --> 00:09:36.440 point perhaps more justified, at least in a post ten 144 00:09:36.480 --> 00:09:41.679 to seven world preemptively defensive israel Centric worldview with an 145 00:09:41.679 --> 00:09:46.039 interesting inversion of the dual loyalty trope an implied allegation 146 00:09:46.120 --> 00:09:50.440 of insufficient loyalty by American Jews. But there can be 147 00:09:50.559 --> 00:09:54.600 no doubt that the outlook informing this speech has its 148 00:09:54.679 --> 00:10:01.320 fingerprints on Benjamin Netanyahu's own approach to foreign policy. The 149 00:10:01.360 --> 00:10:03.360 point to take home from this is less that I 150 00:10:03.399 --> 00:10:08.679 am just as capable of deploying a potentially problematic psychoanalytic 151 00:10:08.720 --> 00:10:12.519 framework against the controversial Prime Minister of Israel, just as 152 00:10:12.960 --> 00:10:16.279 problematic as the one I deployed against the controversial Grand 153 00:10:16.360 --> 00:10:20.799 Muffy of Jerusalem Hajaja Mean. It is more that the 154 00:10:20.960 --> 00:10:23.320 point with which I open the most recent episode of 155 00:10:23.320 --> 00:10:28.720 the podcast is even more proven. That men are often 156 00:10:28.799 --> 00:10:32.919 influenced by their fathers, and this can have reverberating effects 157 00:10:32.960 --> 00:10:36.440 across time in ways that they and those of us 158 00:10:36.480 --> 00:10:41.399 watching are probably unable of fully appreciating in the moment. 159 00:10:43.360 --> 00:10:47.279 After all, even the greatest men among us are only human, 160 00:10:48.840 --> 00:10:52.679 and because we are all only human, we can recognize 161 00:10:52.720 --> 00:10:55.279 a lot of what drives men in positions of power 162 00:10:55.399 --> 00:10:59.480 that most of us can only dream of possessing, and 163 00:10:59.559 --> 00:11:02.320 realize why they could well be figures not to be 164 00:11:02.399 --> 00:11:07.840 trusted to make a bad situation better. I mean, in 165 00:11:07.879 --> 00:11:13.399 a way, I'm more deploying a classic cinematic villain trope. 166 00:11:14.720 --> 00:11:19.360 I'm more doing that than anything else with this imagining. 167 00:11:19.759 --> 00:11:20.559 As I am. 168 00:11:20.679 --> 00:11:25.039 Speaking these words, Old Bibby sitting across the table from 169 00:11:25.159 --> 00:11:28.679 Haja Mien, perhaps, each sipping on a lemonade in the 170 00:11:28.720 --> 00:11:33.879 hot Jerusalem sun. I'm not sure who says it, but 171 00:11:33.960 --> 00:11:37.360 I don't think it matters very much, since it works 172 00:11:37.360 --> 00:11:42.240 either way, honestly. But one of them eventually smiles and says, 173 00:11:43.279 --> 00:11:44.840 you and I are very much alike. 174 00:11:47.679 --> 00:11:48.159 I hope I. 175 00:11:48.120 --> 00:11:51.320 Don't sound too preemptively defensive when I say this, but 176 00:11:52.039 --> 00:11:55.159 I also want to make it clear that despite my 177 00:11:55.240 --> 00:11:59.399 biases that I would like to believe I've sufficiently acknowledged, 178 00:11:59.440 --> 00:12:02.320 both on the show and in my writing, that I 179 00:12:02.399 --> 00:12:05.759 have been and remain very aware that there are a 180 00:12:05.759 --> 00:12:09.360 lot of varying perspectives on how things have devolved so 181 00:12:09.559 --> 00:12:13.759 horribly in the Holy Land, especially if we place October seventh, 182 00:12:13.799 --> 00:12:17.279 twenty twenty three as a start date for our analysis. 183 00:12:19.519 --> 00:12:22.879 In other words, I am very aware that it is 184 00:12:22.919 --> 00:12:25.440 not just a bunch of Arab Nazis running around with 185 00:12:25.480 --> 00:12:29.480 a thirst for Jewish blood full stop. There are other 186 00:12:29.559 --> 00:12:33.519 major factors at work, as there always have been, and 187 00:12:33.559 --> 00:12:37.240 the more thoughtful among the commentariat have discussed these factors 188 00:12:37.279 --> 00:12:43.519 over the years. For example, some of the most compelling 189 00:12:43.639 --> 00:12:46.399 arguments that I have seen made from a position more 190 00:12:46.440 --> 00:12:50.840 sympathetic to the Palestinian plight, is questioning why the settlements 191 00:12:50.960 --> 00:12:54.440 of the West Bank continue to be built despite everything 192 00:12:54.480 --> 00:12:56.879 that might justify their existence in the minds of more 193 00:12:56.919 --> 00:13:03.679 strident Zionist Israelis, or despite everything that the Palestinians, namely 194 00:13:03.720 --> 00:13:07.600 the more politically and especially religiously radical among them, have 195 00:13:07.720 --> 00:13:11.080 done to place themselves and more importantly, the millions of 196 00:13:11.120 --> 00:13:15.200 their regular ie civilian counterparts, in the situation that they're in. 197 00:13:17.159 --> 00:13:20.279 And this class of Palestinian radical has indeed done this, 198 00:13:20.759 --> 00:13:24.000 and yet I will be the first to admit that 199 00:13:24.279 --> 00:13:26.960 it is all a bit complicated, to say the least. 200 00:13:28.480 --> 00:13:32.200 As Andrew Sullivan, the famous writer and journalists, observed back 201 00:13:32.240 --> 00:13:35.679 in twenty twelve in a truly amazing essay and one 202 00:13:35.679 --> 00:13:39.000 that actually inspired me to write the original essay. This 203 00:13:39.039 --> 00:13:43.759 particular podcast special is based on, as he observed quote, 204 00:13:43.879 --> 00:13:46.559 the Palestinians have for a long time, been their own 205 00:13:46.600 --> 00:13:49.759 worst enemies, and in the past have not sought peace 206 00:13:51.000 --> 00:13:54.080 for much of the past sixty years. The Palestinians bear 207 00:13:54.120 --> 00:13:59.639 a huge responsibility for their own situation quote. But Sullivan 208 00:13:59.720 --> 00:14:03.759 also so granted this fact one now more resonant and 209 00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:08.799 unfortunately prescient post ten to seven, while also asking very pointedly, 210 00:14:08.879 --> 00:14:15.559 quote why continued to build the settlements on? Quote why 211 00:14:15.600 --> 00:14:20.279 indeed we can't, or at least I can't pretend that 212 00:14:20.360 --> 00:14:25.600 this question is discounted because of the lack of responsibility Palestinians, 213 00:14:25.679 --> 00:14:29.639 namely their more radical and less radical leadership, have as 214 00:14:29.720 --> 00:14:34.600 authors of the humiliation and even destruction that they have faced. 215 00:14:36.240 --> 00:14:39.120 The question of West Bank settlements is not mutually exclusive 216 00:14:39.679 --> 00:14:44.080 from applying the appropriate amount of moral responsibility on Palestinian 217 00:14:44.200 --> 00:14:50.799 leadership across time. However, to return to the main point, let's. 218 00:14:50.519 --> 00:14:51.519 Loop all this together. 219 00:14:53.360 --> 00:14:57.759 It's this notion of placing the appropriate moral responsibility that 220 00:14:57.879 --> 00:15:03.559 brings us back to our pal now Husseini. Given these 221 00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:06.879 things that help flesh out the moral complexity of the 222 00:15:06.960 --> 00:15:10.799 narrative that I've been tackling, it is indeed fair to 223 00:15:10.960 --> 00:15:14.360 ask why place so much focus on Jajamin Now Husseini. 224 00:15:15.960 --> 00:15:20.120 The short version, my mini thesis, if you will, is 225 00:15:20.159 --> 00:15:23.679 simply that he is underrated, both in the historical and 226 00:15:23.759 --> 00:15:29.279 more importantly, in the moral record. This problem of his 227 00:15:29.399 --> 00:15:32.840 being underrated is still in the process of being corrected, 228 00:15:33.279 --> 00:15:36.600 and despite not being a real historian, at least not yet, 229 00:15:37.360 --> 00:15:39.480 I'd like to think that I'm contributing at least in 230 00:15:39.559 --> 00:15:44.960 some fashion to correcting this deficient we'll say record, But 231 00:15:45.559 --> 00:15:48.919 this record, this long developing record, has hit many many 232 00:15:48.960 --> 00:15:52.759 hiccups along the way. As I already covered in the 233 00:15:52.879 --> 00:15:56.200 just released episode of History Impossible. This is partly due 234 00:15:56.240 --> 00:15:59.240 to how much misinformation is out there about the man, 235 00:15:59.440 --> 00:16:02.559 coming from what we can call the Zionist camp, and 236 00:16:02.600 --> 00:16:06.480 partly due to how much seeming in curiosity and at times, 237 00:16:06.559 --> 00:16:11.360 as we also covered, very clearly deliberate obfuscation that there 238 00:16:11.399 --> 00:16:15.159 has been coming out of the Palestinian Nationalists or Palestinian 239 00:16:15.200 --> 00:16:20.639 sympathetic camp. As a reminder, this runs the gamut from 240 00:16:20.639 --> 00:16:24.480 Bibi Netanyahoo falsely claiming that Hajamen was the real brains 241 00:16:24.559 --> 00:16:28.639 behind the Holocaust, to activist scholars claiming that he was 242 00:16:28.720 --> 00:16:31.039 not actually the monster that he has been painted as, 243 00:16:31.159 --> 00:16:35.399 and even some pretending that nothing he did between nineteen 244 00:16:35.440 --> 00:16:38.440 forty one and nineteen forty five mattered enough to discuss 245 00:16:38.480 --> 00:16:42.879 at any length or depth. This is a clear problem, 246 00:16:43.039 --> 00:16:47.000 and it's one that actually has its own history. So 247 00:16:47.200 --> 00:16:51.799 this means we're going to briefly dive into what normally 248 00:16:52.120 --> 00:16:55.360 is my least favorite part of historical scholarship, but to 249 00:16:55.360 --> 00:16:57.679 be honest, really interesting to me, at least in this case, 250 00:16:57.919 --> 00:17:03.240 and that is historiography as in the history of doing 251 00:17:03.360 --> 00:17:07.559 history of a particular topic, and that's a pretty loose definition. 252 00:17:09.279 --> 00:17:12.480 In the paper the Historical Problem of Hajamin al Husseini, 253 00:17:12.519 --> 00:17:15.960 Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, published by the Jerusalem Center for 254 00:17:15.960 --> 00:17:19.759 Public Affairs in the Jewish Political Studies Review, author Joel 255 00:17:19.799 --> 00:17:24.000 Fishman explains that the lack of attention and thus confusion 256 00:17:24.039 --> 00:17:26.599 that has arisen over the course of the past half 257 00:17:26.640 --> 00:17:29.920 century since the Mufti's death is due to many reasons. 258 00:17:32.160 --> 00:17:34.359 The first reason he cites is that, thanks to the 259 00:17:34.400 --> 00:17:38.720 methodology of early Israeli historians of collecting and preserving sources 260 00:17:38.759 --> 00:17:41.079 with the intent of allowing research to take place in 261 00:17:41.079 --> 00:17:44.599 the future, quote, lost opportunities and major gaps in our 262 00:17:44.640 --> 00:17:51.200 knowledge unquote, formed world events also conspired to make these 263 00:17:51.200 --> 00:17:55.240 opportunities more difficult to seize, with diplomatic developments between the 264 00:17:55.240 --> 00:17:58.359 PLO and the Israeli government in the nineteen nineties, i e. 265 00:17:58.440 --> 00:18:02.920 The Oslo Accords, leading to a supposedly moral imperative that quote, 266 00:18:03.119 --> 00:18:05.559 in order to make peace of the PLO, it was 267 00:18:05.640 --> 00:18:12.920 necessary to forget the past. The problem of diplomatic real 268 00:18:13.039 --> 00:18:17.319 politique aside, there were practical difficulties as well, such as 269 00:18:17.359 --> 00:18:20.680 the declassification of records from the war years, occurring at 270 00:18:20.720 --> 00:18:24.359 different times and more importantly, in different languages and in 271 00:18:24.359 --> 00:18:30.319 different countries. As Joel Fishman explains, these sources included quote, 272 00:18:30.559 --> 00:18:33.599 Nazi documents captured by the Red Army State Department and 273 00:18:33.680 --> 00:18:37.920 CIA collections which have become declassified, and related primary sources 274 00:18:37.920 --> 00:18:44.039 from Germany. It was not even until the late two 275 00:18:44.119 --> 00:18:48.119 thousands and early twenty tens, when books like Jeffrey Herb's 276 00:18:48.200 --> 00:18:51.920 Masterful Nazi Propaganda for the Arab World and David Modoedel's 277 00:18:51.960 --> 00:18:55.119 Incredible Islam and Nazi Germany's War, which by the way, 278 00:18:55.119 --> 00:18:58.240 were both used very extensively in the research of the 279 00:18:58.319 --> 00:19:02.240 last episode, that the story of the Mufty began to 280 00:19:02.359 --> 00:19:08.960 emerge from the murk of recently unearthed historical documentation. Basically, 281 00:19:09.680 --> 00:19:13.839 the truth, the real dirty truths, I should say, surrounding 282 00:19:13.839 --> 00:19:18.039 the Grand Muffy really only started coming out very recently 283 00:19:18.079 --> 00:19:25.079 as of this recording. Now, Hajamen had indeed gotten coverage 284 00:19:25.079 --> 00:19:29.640 from sources like Bayan al Hut and Philimtar, but without 285 00:19:29.680 --> 00:19:32.400 all of the documents unearthed in the nineteen nineties and beyond, 286 00:19:33.400 --> 00:19:36.519 there was little that could be effectively contested in there, 287 00:19:36.599 --> 00:19:42.079 as in Matar and al Hoot's sugarcoated or arguably dishonest accounts, 288 00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:48.319 no doubt contributing to Hajamen's underrated status. This revival of 289 00:19:48.359 --> 00:19:51.640 interest thanks to the new information brought to light, of course, 290 00:19:52.240 --> 00:19:55.440 produced an opposite effective bias in some corners of the discourse, 291 00:19:55.559 --> 00:19:58.599 leading of course to the more extreme claims made about 292 00:19:58.640 --> 00:20:01.000 Haja Mien and his role in the Hulla. But the 293 00:20:01.079 --> 00:20:05.160 point to remember is that a more fully fleshed out 294 00:20:05.200 --> 00:20:08.880 sketch of the Grand Mufty and his thoughts and actions 295 00:20:09.640 --> 00:20:15.200 was not even possible until very recently. The best comparison 296 00:20:15.240 --> 00:20:17.200 that I can think of that I want to make 297 00:20:17.359 --> 00:20:20.799 is that for a long time, William Shire's excellent book 298 00:20:20.960 --> 00:20:22.839 The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich written in 299 00:20:22.920 --> 00:20:25.200 nineteen sixty and you know, it is an excellent book. 300 00:20:25.200 --> 00:20:27.799 It is by no means bad, but it was the 301 00:20:27.920 --> 00:20:31.000 mainstream source for looking at the history of Nazi Germany 302 00:20:31.000 --> 00:20:35.160 for a lot of people. Now, there was obviously other 303 00:20:35.200 --> 00:20:37.400 books out there, but it was kind of considered a 304 00:20:37.400 --> 00:20:40.480 gold standard, mostly because I think william Shire was there. 305 00:20:41.319 --> 00:20:45.880 But flash forward several decades and many debates later. I mean, 306 00:20:46.000 --> 00:20:48.359 just go to your local Barnes and Noble or local 307 00:20:48.400 --> 00:20:52.000 independent bookshop and look at the history section where there's 308 00:20:52.079 --> 00:20:54.599 the World War II sub section, because I guarantee you 309 00:20:54.720 --> 00:20:57.640 it is a sub section. The coverage has become much 310 00:20:57.680 --> 00:20:59.599 more fleshed out, as I'm sure you can see, and 311 00:20:59.599 --> 00:21:02.920 we having incredible work like Timothy Snyder's Blood Lands e 312 00:21:02.960 --> 00:21:07.000 Were between Hitler and Stalin, or Max Hastings's Inferno The 313 00:21:07.039 --> 00:21:09.400 World at War in nineteen thirty nine to nineteen thirty five, 314 00:21:09.720 --> 00:21:11.400 just to name a few examples that I tend to 315 00:21:11.400 --> 00:21:12.960 see a lot and ones that. 316 00:21:12.920 --> 00:21:14.680 Are both very good. 317 00:21:15.559 --> 00:21:18.359 When thinking about it in these terms, one might be 318 00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:21.599 tempted to suggest, as I kind of am, that the 319 00:21:21.640 --> 00:21:25.480 depth of scholarship on Haajamin al Husseini has only just 320 00:21:25.599 --> 00:21:32.480 begun to scratch below the surface. The scratching continues, with 321 00:21:32.680 --> 00:21:35.839 more material being produced on the Grand Mufty and painting 322 00:21:35.880 --> 00:21:39.720 an increasingly interesting picture of not just his relationship with 323 00:21:39.799 --> 00:21:44.240 Nazi Germany, but his overall thinking and eventual impact on 324 00:21:44.319 --> 00:21:49.480 the wider world. Now it is certainly possible to overstate 325 00:21:49.519 --> 00:21:54.319 Hajaman's impact on certain things. To revisit the most controversial 326 00:21:54.440 --> 00:21:56.720 chapter in his time spent with the Nazis, it is 327 00:21:56.839 --> 00:22:02.240 hardly certain that he was able to effectively influenced change 328 00:22:02.359 --> 00:22:05.039 on the level of Nazi policy when it came to 329 00:22:05.079 --> 00:22:08.039 their final solution of the so called Jewish question. But 330 00:22:08.720 --> 00:22:11.799 it's also become much more possible to establish just how 331 00:22:11.839 --> 00:22:14.799 complicit he actually was when it came to the well 332 00:22:14.880 --> 00:22:19.400 established crimes of that regime. Again, the evidence seems pretty 333 00:22:19.400 --> 00:22:23.160 clear that at the very least, he was well aware 334 00:22:23.440 --> 00:22:26.640 of the extent of their so called Eastern policies, and 335 00:22:26.680 --> 00:22:30.440 that he tried to ensure the efficacy of those policies 336 00:22:30.480 --> 00:22:35.599 on various Eastern European Jews, including thousands of children. Whether 337 00:22:35.640 --> 00:22:38.400 he was successful or not is less relevant than the 338 00:22:38.400 --> 00:22:40.160 fact that he tried. That was the point that I 339 00:22:40.200 --> 00:22:43.079 made in the episode, and we know that thanks to 340 00:22:43.319 --> 00:22:49.200 the very good research being done. To put it bluntly, 341 00:22:49.839 --> 00:22:53.400 I do not believe that I would have been able 342 00:22:53.480 --> 00:22:56.640 to strike this balance in the last episode of the 343 00:22:56.680 --> 00:23:00.440 podcast without the incredible scholarship that has been done by 344 00:23:00.440 --> 00:23:04.440 the likes of Gilbert Atchkar, Joel Fishman, Klaus Genzica, Jeffrey Hurf, 345 00:23:04.519 --> 00:23:06.279 Jenny Label and David Moddel. 346 00:23:07.279 --> 00:23:08.279 I'm just reporting on. 347 00:23:08.200 --> 00:23:12.559 What they have found, and that kind of scholarship, it 348 00:23:12.640 --> 00:23:15.759 should be said, would not have been possible without the 349 00:23:15.759 --> 00:23:19.759 diligent curiosity of such scholars with an interest in Hajajamin 350 00:23:19.799 --> 00:23:24.119 al Husseini and a desire to basically just not take 351 00:23:24.200 --> 00:23:28.200 the clearly politically motivated scholars like al hut Khalidi Matar 352 00:23:28.319 --> 00:23:31.599 and Papa at their word that frankly, when it comes 353 00:23:31.640 --> 00:23:36.359 to the Mufty, there's just nothing to see here. As 354 00:23:36.440 --> 00:23:40.559 Joel Fishman insists, quote, we must make sure that our 355 00:23:40.599 --> 00:23:44.640 own understanding of this chapter of history is comprehensive, truthful, 356 00:23:44.720 --> 00:23:48.440 and accurate. It is a disservice to ignore this part 357 00:23:48.440 --> 00:23:51.440 of the past, because it is crucial for our understanding 358 00:23:51.480 --> 00:23:56.599 of the present and for the reasonable formation of policy. 359 00:23:57.160 --> 00:24:00.960 It is simply not possible to build upon a foundation 360 00:24:01.079 --> 00:24:05.480 of myth and ignorance. The career of Hajamin al Husseini 361 00:24:05.519 --> 00:24:09.440 represents a major historical problem, and the question of his 362 00:24:09.559 --> 00:24:13.440 place in history must be placed on the public agenda. 363 00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:18.720 It still requires thorough and sustained examination. If we look 364 00:24:18.799 --> 00:24:22.039 beyond the individual articles which appear in this issue of 365 00:24:22.079 --> 00:24:27.079 the Jewish Political Studies Review, we may identify several larger themes. 366 00:24:27.680 --> 00:24:30.680 The fusion of religion with politics in the form of 367 00:24:30.680 --> 00:24:35.519 a new Islamism, the sickness of arabanti Semitism, and of 368 00:24:35.599 --> 00:24:42.279 course the Mufti's historical responsibility. 369 00:24:42.799 --> 00:24:44.000 And now for. 370 00:24:43.839 --> 00:24:48.920 The complicated part that I'm probably making way too complicated 371 00:24:48.920 --> 00:24:53.599 for my own good, but here goes. If it is 372 00:24:53.640 --> 00:24:57.759 not yet clear, I could not agree more with the majority, 373 00:24:57.880 --> 00:25:04.039 the vast majority, I would even say of Joel Fishman's sentiment. Unfortunately, though, 374 00:25:04.680 --> 00:25:08.480 I have to urge caution to anyone who might think 375 00:25:08.559 --> 00:25:13.400 that we take Hajamen's career and responsibility as our guiding 376 00:25:13.480 --> 00:25:16.720 north star for coping with the historical memory that has 377 00:25:16.839 --> 00:25:21.160 fueled such vast and apocalyptic death and destruction upon the 378 00:25:21.200 --> 00:25:25.559 Arabs and Jews of the Holy Land, especially after the 379 00:25:25.599 --> 00:25:28.359 events of ten to seven and the subsequent war that 380 00:25:28.400 --> 00:25:30.200 has claimed the lives of thousands. 381 00:25:33.119 --> 00:25:34.680 It is true, without question. 382 00:25:35.519 --> 00:25:37.359 I think I've made this clear that I believe this, 383 00:25:37.519 --> 00:25:40.039 but I will say it again as a matter of 384 00:25:40.359 --> 00:25:46.759 pointless throat clearing, that the bloodthirsty, genocidal and yes, savage 385 00:25:46.799 --> 00:25:51.559 and animalistic brutality brought upon the Israelis stands firmly in 386 00:25:51.599 --> 00:25:55.319 the same universe. Firmly, I gotta say that word again, 387 00:25:55.480 --> 00:26:00.680 firmly in the same universe, as Haja means own genocidal hatred, 388 00:26:00.720 --> 00:26:04.640 and by extension his status is a true Muslim Nazi, 389 00:26:05.279 --> 00:26:07.920 if there is such a thing. But if we are 390 00:26:07.920 --> 00:26:10.960 to base the entire moral calculus of how to deal 391 00:26:11.039 --> 00:26:14.880 with the quote unquote Palestinian question, truly, for lack of 392 00:26:14.880 --> 00:26:19.359 a better term, on Hajamin's record, the ease with which we, 393 00:26:19.839 --> 00:26:23.359 or at least Israel's government could come to some pretty heinous, 394 00:26:23.559 --> 00:26:31.880 morally compromised conclusions increases exponentially. We spent hours, and by we, 395 00:26:32.079 --> 00:26:34.559 I mean I I spent many hours. But you were 396 00:26:34.599 --> 00:26:38.720 all there with me, listening, looking at the vile things 397 00:26:39.319 --> 00:26:42.640 said about Jews that came from Hajamin's pen and mouth 398 00:26:42.799 --> 00:26:46.839 during and before the Second World War, so it's not 399 00:26:46.960 --> 00:26:52.799 worth revisiting them here. But his bloodthirstiness and ruthlessness claimed 400 00:26:52.839 --> 00:26:56.759 the lives of many Arabs and Muslims as well. That's 401 00:26:56.799 --> 00:27:00.880