Speaker 1: What is a fellows e goes, I am Dan Valley
coming at you with mister Grant Hughes, the certified, fantabulous
mister Grant Hughes. I was gonna even have been calling
you the one and the only Grant Hughes when you're not.
And I'm like, that feels like a pretty common name.
I really shouldn't fink there's no one like you as
an actual being.
Speaker 2: But there's definitely a bunch of people that have your name.
Speaker 3: And there's a much more famous one.
Speaker 4: Uh, not that I have any level of fame whatsoever,
but there is a Grant Hughes that is married to
the actress Sophia Bush, and she's famous. And so if
you google my name, you're gonna get this guy. You're
gonna get a lot of other Grand hues content.
Speaker 1: To be fair, Google just really hasn't caught up to
the popularity of this podcast, and as the world's foremost
popular media property, you are the most famous Grand Hughes.
Speaker 4: Yeah, a lot of people don't know. That's why Google
is getting broken up by the government. It's because it's
just like doesn't work very well search wise. It's not
because of the monopoly.
Speaker 1: We are here with a bonus content because we're rolling
out looking at and left them. Man, Granted, we just
put out content. Shout out to Grant and I, but
we're bonus content. We're gonna either draft, well, exchange. I
don't know why I'm using the word draft. We're gonna
exchange teams that still need to make moves, and we
are defining it by we will be or fans should
be uncomfortable if these teams don't do something before the
season or very early in the season. These are not
situations where you would be like, oh, we're fine waiting
until the deadline. And so there will be teams like, yeah,
we could see them being active at the trade deadline,
but you can easily justify nope, just leave it. See
what you have here.
Speaker 2: These are the.
Speaker 1: Teams that were not okay with them playing it out,
in large part because we've seen what happens when some
of these teams play it out, and it's kind of
just like, nope, we.
Speaker 2: Don't want that anymore.
Speaker 1: How are you feeling about this exercise, Grant? Considering that
we both threw it on ourselves last minute, I.
Speaker 4: Think it's gonna be a good framing device for you know,
looking ahead as like, well, where are the trades gonna
come from? Because they're coming and these are all teams
I think you probably are gonna want to look at
when you're trying to figure out, like where the shuffling
is going to happen. I would add that, like for me,
it's almost it's less like, oh, this is a catastrophe
if they don't make a move. It's just like there's
very obviously unfinished business on this roster. Like it doesn't
it doesn't make sense. You wouldn't imagine they would complete
the season looking the same way.
Speaker 3: It's just like it would be surprising. So that's kind
of how I'm looking at it.
Speaker 2: Would you like to start us off?
Speaker 4: Sure, I'll start one off. Keeps getting me in trouble
at least among Lakers fans.
Speaker 2: But like, is he not talking about the Kings.
Speaker 3: No, I'm gonna leave them alone.
Speaker 4: I think they've made their moves. Well maybe not, but
they're not on my list. The Lakers, like I've sort
of counseled, like you kind of start you need to
start looking at some reckless options because the safe ones
aren't really there. And if you have Lebron and ad
and you want to stay at least where you are,
which is the plan, or maybe improve.
Speaker 3: You got to get.
Speaker 4: Somebody that's gonna move the needle. So I'm not like,
is that Zach Lavine.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 3: The price is pretty low right now. You might get
a first rounder.
Speaker 4: With him, so it doesn't need to be him necessarily,
But I don't think the I don't think you're gonna
get him any cheaper. But the Lakers just feel unfinished
because they really, if you know, other than Dalton Connect,
not a lot of additions this offseason, and so they're
just banking on some of the ones they made last
year being healthier. Kind of feels unfinished undone to me,
I would.
Speaker 1: Agree with you, and I have seen the logic that
you kind of laid out just now. Well, Gabe Vincent
will play in more than five games, and Jared Vanderbilt
will be healthier, and look, they got Dalton Connect, who's
an upgrade over Torrian Prince.
Speaker 2: I will say the last part first.
Speaker 1: You don't just get to assume that an incoming rookie
is going to be better than an NBA veteran who's
going to be in a rotation with the Milwaukee Bucks
in all likelihoods. So I find that logic to be
incredibly flawed. And the other thing is just Lebron James
and Anthony Davis, since I think a lot of listeners
prefer games played, I use possessions all the time. They
appeared in sixty six games together Grant last year. Are
you gonna take the over the under on that number
leading into next season?
Speaker 3: I'm taking a hard under on that one.
Speaker 4: And you just have to factor in like, any time
one or the other is out, you're talking coin flip
at best against most teams, and if they're both out,
you're drawing dead. So it's if you're gonna go for
it one, you're banking on them being healthy for this
like third star pursuit to even make any sense, But like,
what's the alternative? We just kind of hold onto our
picks and then go in like start getting ready for
the post Lebron era right now?
Speaker 3: I mean maybe, but I don't think that's the way
to go.
Speaker 1: I think the a valid form of pushback would be, well,
who is the person they're supposed to go out and get?
And I think you're at the point where it's, well,
you don't need to look at this as the all
or nothing proposition of we need to include connect two
first rounders, three swaps, Austin Reeves and go get LaMelo
Ball or whoever that you think you could get. That
player doesn't seem to be available. You mentioned Zach Lavin
if you could just get him for contracts, Why this point,
he's almost because and like and Reeves isn't one of
those contracts, do it?
Speaker 2: Like, I just don't.
Speaker 1: He's become underrated in the sense that, okay, the contract
doesn't look great, he's injured. This is still someone who
if you slot him into the Lakers where he's very
clearly gonna be the third best player and you're not
gonna need him to do a ton of distribution for you.
He it feels like he finally won't be miscast. And
the other thing I'll point to here is what was
the point in staying under the second apron if you're
not gonna utilize that flexibility? And I just don't know
how you look at last season and okay, you did
play really well when your top four guys Ruye, Reeves,
Davis and James around the court, But like and the
answer is just to stay the same, Like, what what
did you do during the postseason last year that makes
you think like, oh, like this team is close as
currently constructed?
Speaker 3: Yeah, nothing, nothing.
Speaker 1: What is their biggest need to you? But like, forget
about player, but what is there? Like to me, it
feels very clearly like, hey, could we get any wings
at all? But like two way wings is just they've
decided to punt on them ever since the championship for
some reason.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like two A wings for sure, two a anything.
Speaker 4: Like, So you're not just choosing between D'Angelo Russell or
potentially healthy Gabe Vincent depending on your playoff need and
like giving back something on one end or the other.
It's just I know this is reductive, but one of
the needs might just be a guy that can be
you know, the third star or whatever you want to
call it. Someone that's like an upgrade over everybody except
James and Davis that can eat innings. Can like you
want to be careful with that because that was the
Russell Westbrook argument.
Speaker 3: That is not what I'm suggesting.
Speaker 4: But someone that could eat innings maybe give those guys
the opportunity to take nights off and you have you know,
unnamed third Guy and Davis or Lebron on a lot
of nights, like that's enough to win some games. If
everybody's healthy, then great. But it's just like it's a
high end talent upgrade to me, I think, or you
try to balance things out at point guard or on
the wing one way or the other.
Speaker 1: And finally, I think the danger this will apply to
some more teams in even if you want to say, well,
why don't we wait and see how healthy they are
and what Davins and jere Vanderbilt do, you just don't
have that type of margin for error in the West.
So like, if it doesn't go according to plan or
close to according to plan, you're almost kind of screwed
at that point because you've given up too much ground.
My turn, I'm gonna go with this. Needs will come
a bit now. Your New Orleans Pelicans, there's a couple
of fronts where I think that this applies. They need
to figure out what's going on with Brandon Ingram. Are
you going to extend him? Are you letting this play out?
Speaker 2: Can you move him?
Speaker 1: Is what is the offer even out there for him?
Regardless of what goes on with Brandon Ingram, though I
am wildly uncomfortable with the way the center.
Speaker 2: Rotation looks like right now.
Speaker 1: And I understand that you could make the point where
whoever you get isn't supposed to play like this huge role.
If you look at their depth chart, though, grant their
best center, that's it's probably Daniel Tye. Like, I don't
think that you're gonna put Karla Makovic over there over him.
That's like way too soon to do something like that.
Eve mecI either, So how many players do you have
to go through in terms of New Orleans' best players
before you get to a center?
Speaker 3: Oh, it's like it's gotta be double digits practically, right.
Speaker 1: Murray McCollum, Ingram Herb Jones, Zion Williamson, Trey Murphy. So
those six are better than any centers you have. Are
you putting Jose Alvarado ahead of Daniel Tye?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Are you putting Jordan Hawkins ahead of Daniel Tyson?
Speaker 3: I am? I love Jordan Hawkins.
Speaker 1: So like they're eighth or ninety, you have to go
through eight or nine players before you can make a case.
And that's just that doesn't feel like a recipe for success.
I understand that they can have Zion Williamson play the five.
That's better off being a club in your bag rather
than like the primary.
Speaker 2: Tool in your belt.
Speaker 1: And I just don't they might be looking at it
as well. We haven't shout out to Sam Besini framed
it this way on one of the latest episode of
Game Theory, one of the latest episodes of Game Theory,
like you're just not gonna win a playoff series like that.
And they have six guys this how we framed it,
who should theoretically close and none of them are a center.
That doesn't really excuse he wasn't excusing it, by the way,
for anyone who cares, that doesn't excuse not doing more
to upgrade the center position here. And I just don't
know if this is by design, are they holding out
for something or is this like by mistake where it's, oh,
we didn't it Because you can say, well, would you
feel better about this team if Larry Dange Junior wasn't
part of the de Jonte Murray trade, Like, yeah, no shit,
I probably would, because that's like someone who resembles that
he's not a true Rimp protector. But I'd rather have
him play center and handle those responsibilities than throwing it
on Desion or does Daniel Pics need to play more
than a few minutes per game. It's just I won't
say it's detrimental because I'm still very high on this
roster overall, but something just feels off here and it doesn't.
People are so often gonna frame this in well it
needs to be like a bigger name, but I don't
know that it like, just get someone who can eat
up more minutes right now then and be better than
Makovich or or MESI.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think you know, we've spent a lot of
time over the years talking about, like, well, you need
a very specific type of center for this team, right
because otherwise Zion doesn't make sense at this point. It's like,
get somebody and like the it'd be great if you
could sort of, you know, two birds this thing and
have the Ingram trade be the thing that brings you
back the center. It's just we've spent long enough going
over what the options are, and I just, I mean,
I don't see it right now. Maybe things will change,
but that's the whole point of this is like things
are gonna need to change because this roster is very
very much unfinished and they do.
Speaker 1: Have challenges, one of them being that they're not going
to be a team that's willing to pay the tax.
And they've also just because you gave up Dyson Daniels
and Larry Dance Junior, like you've you've used all of
your mid end salary cards. And so if you are
going to get a center, unless you're just kind of saying,
all right, well, we're gonna move Jordan Hawkins as part
of that, and he's making four and a half million,
that's able to bring back someone you're trading either someone
who's super expensive and or a core part of your team.
And so ideally maybe it's like, oh, if we could
just move CG. McCollum for two players, But it's not
gonna work like that, and so they're I'll be built
to not make the smallest of them or like a
media move. It has to be either big or super
small there. But I just think that they.
Speaker 2: Need to do something before the season starts.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree with that.
Speaker 4: Let's let's go the Pelicans are kind of fringy contenders,
or at least up there. Let's let's I'm gonna go
to Portland here, and it's just the basics of you
just drafted Scoot Henderson third last year Shadon Sharp was
in the high lottery of the year before. But there's
just all these veterans on the team, some of whom
are highly paid Jeremy Grant, although we're fine with that contract,
but you've got DeAndre Ay and you've got Robert Williams
the third.
Speaker 3: Like who else am I free?
Speaker 4: Anthony Simons I think probably falls in that bucket of
guys that are like you kind of seem more like
a trade chip than someone that a reasonable executive would say,
this is someone that it's going to grow with Scoot
and Shade and Sharp, you know, over the next half decade.
Like you put too Mani Kamara in that group, I
guess as the young pieces group. That makes sense here,
but it's just kind of a disconnect then, like I
think to the Blazer's credit, also, you just added Danny Avdia,
which we like him, but he's kind of in the
middle a little bit. Maybe he's young enough to be
a core piece. There's just kind of a weird mishmash
of different like experience levels, I guess, and it feels
like there's at least a couple layers that kind of
need to get peeled off of this roster before you
really get down to what it should be, which is
just like we are starting all the way over and
that's not what this roster is at the moment.
Speaker 1: No, And it's I just think the center one bothers
me the most. Where it's if I see Donovan Klingon
lose in minutes to DeAndre and I'm gonna sure be
just absolutely frustrated, And it's just like clear the decks here.
And you also might want to kind of make the
decision of Okay, I know why Anthony Simon is super young,
but he has two years left on his deal, and
we have Shane Sharp and Scoot Henderson here.
Speaker 2: We've now added more perimeter players to the mix.
Speaker 1: When you look at you know, Chris Murray from last year,
they just traded for Denniavia. What is the theory now,
Vatis Thieble. Since Denniavia is there, it just feels like
they just need to clear And by the way, when
you look at the landscape of the West, like they
shouldn't be trying to accumulate wins right now either, and
so if they are going to play everybody, and if
it's not like a mandate where I think, if you
look at this roster, there are probably some people that
argue that not even Scoot Henderson is guaranteed to start.
And so I'm just gonna say that Scoot Henderson will
start because I think that he absolutely should be. But
like everybody, like Shane Sharp Clinging, like those are all
guys that you should be trying to get. Like, yeah,
it's not who starts to tell many minutes they play,
but how are you supposed to juggle all this? So
you might not be getting as much run for the
youngsters as you would need, like you're the ones that
you're really married too long term. And then by the way,
you also just might wind up stumbling into too many
wins and that could technically hurt your lottery odds. When
we're looking at well, there are some teams in the
Eastern Conference they're not gonna give a fuck to open
the year, and so you're not gonna make up that ground.
Maybe they're guaranteed to finish with a bottom four record anyway,
So are we overthinking it? But as of right now,
there's a chance that this team, if they made no
moves grant like they could be better than a bottom
four team, and like there's doesn't feel like they're kind
of like they could be a sneaky good defensive team
when you look at this personnel, and I'm not advocating
against that, but it's just like there's just so much here.
And I understand you're in talent accumulation mode, but is
it the like, are we gonna make sure that the
right talent has the right opportunities and it I feel
like at least one or two trades would help clean
up that vision quite a bit.
Speaker 4: Like you don't want to kind of being you know,
hyperbolic in saying like you gotta get rid of everybody
that's over twenty two or whatever. You know, it's not
quite that you need. You do want to keep around
like one or two of those guys if they're the
right guys, but it's just because, you know, partly because
like maybe you'd like to see what he looks like.
Speaker 3: If you have a veteran X like.
Speaker 4: Rollman or you know, movement shoot, whatever whatever it is,
you can get that information, I think without having like
six or seven guys that belong in like mid tier
teams or even like upper echelon teams rotations.
Speaker 3: Like that's just.
Speaker 1: The other thing too, is I do think that rebalancing
the it's not really a rebalance. I still think this
roster needs shooting if they want to try and optimize
what Scoot does best, because I think you look at
so Anthony Simon's we know, good shooter, that's fine, shade
sharp pit thirty nine plus percent. I was catching shoot
threes last year. He only took like two a game.
And it's kind of the same thing like Jeremy Grant,
like a good shooter. Is he a great shooter and
you can probably throw them in. Okay, he counts as
a floor spacer there. But Denny Avdya he hit his
threes last year, but he's not taking a ton of them.
So unless you believe that some of these guys are
really going to be able to take on more outside volume,
it does feel like one of the bigger additives for
them will be like, if we can just get some
more cap flock shooters in here, that's going to open
up room for Scoot to get into the lane and
do what Scoot does best. In theory, that would go
a long way as well. And you know, that's not
gonna happen at the center position, just unless you're playing
duop Reef, who, by the way, I guess profiles is
the fourth big on this team, but he's probably like
better than that, especially given the stretch that he provides.
Speaker 2: And so if I had to pick one area where they.
Speaker 1: Just need to shrink down the rotation, it's you got
to move. Can you figure out a way to move
Aighton and Robert Williams the third And I understand that
Robert Williams the third stock has created I think he'd
be a great flyer for a team that's like I
withstand the health risk. Aighton's trickier just with two years
left on that much money I've seen to bring it
back to the Pelicans, like some fans have tried to
warm up to the idea of our their three team
scenarios where you move Brandon Ingram and get DeAndre Ayton back.
I don't love that fit, but it does rebalance the roster.
Speaker 2: Like we were talking about.
Speaker 1: And just a quick note on that, I think if
you pulled Pelicans fans right now, a majority of them
would do brandon Ingram for just Walker Kessler.
Speaker 2: And John Collins straight up.
Speaker 1: And that's like the point at which the brandon Ingram
discourses each because his value has been so confounding.
Speaker 2: Oh it's my turn.
Speaker 1: Now, I'm gonna go with the jazz, just because if
you're gonna ensure that you're going to be bad enough,
I know. The whole theory here is, well, we're just
gonna play Larry Mark and all the kids, and we'll
be bad enough.
Speaker 2: Look how good the Western Conference is.
Speaker 1: I think that's fair, But it's also kind of like,
all right, they clearly don't like Walker Kessler or they've
shopped him, and so that feels like low hanging fruit.
The John Collins experiment hasn't worked out all that well.
And if you really want to open up the runway
for Kyle Philipowski, Taylor Hendrix, that's the name that could
stand to go. And I think when you look at
sort of their playmaking rotation that Colin Sexton and Jordan
Clarkson on balance don't stand in the way of Keyante
George as.
Speaker 2: We saw last year.
Speaker 1: But like, I don't think both of those guys should
be on this roster. If you want to ensure that
you're gonna be bad enough, both of them definitely shouldn't
be one of them should not be playing or at
least beyond this roster. So if they want to ensure
that they're not gonna stumble into another one of these
half season over achievements, I would say one to two
to three players needs to be.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's right.
Speaker 4: And obviously, like the you have you just renegotiated and
extended Laura Marketing's deal as long as he's healthy and
doesn't get shut down in like mid November, I don't
think the Jazz can be a bottom four team, Like
even if they do just just like sell off everybody
that isn't part of like the you know, five year
window or whatever, So that would include you know, Sexton
and Collins and Clarkson at the top of the list.
This is a weird situation because normally you'd say, yeah,
get rid of those guys, let's get some picks. It's like, well,
Utah's got enough picks and the tank the road to like,
I just don't see, maybe you disagree, but you mentioned
those East teams that are gonna just come out of
the gates like going in reverse, and then you've got
Portland below Utah in the West, it's gonna be really
hard to maximize your your lottery position by getting into
the top or top slash bottom four. So this is
a confusing one. Like Utah, it does seem like Utah
is just kind of content to treat everybody as like
we will listen to offers and if it's good enough,
we'll take it, and if not, we'll just keep them
because we got all the picks we need. It just
feels like a little bit like Portland minus the like
maybe this guy's a Cornerstone Scoot Henderson figure. They just
have a lot of different players of like very different
like experienced levels and potential impact levels, and you know,
the marketing piece of it is just like kind of
representative of like this is weird, right, Like this guy
wants to be here, but we're probably gonna lose, but
maybe we won't because he's that good. And it's it's
just like it feels again to go back to the
thing I mentioned, it feels like a little unfinished top
to bottom.
Speaker 1: And the other quick point I'll make is a lot
of people will default to saying they're just not going
to play these guys as many minutes, and that's how
they lose. That's not it doesn't happen. It seldom happens
where it's the season starts, it's like, oh, Collin Sex
is only playing fifteen minutes, like if.
Speaker 2: He's healthy, that's not going to happen.
Speaker 1: Like the shutdowns and the really stringent monitoring that happens
after the All Star break, and probably even like a
little bit later than that, like post trade deadline into March.
Speaker 4: Really yeah, no, something will have to happen for the
Jazz to either be a playoff team or be a
bottom four.
Speaker 1: Would you do that trade that's been floating around out there,
if you're the Jazz brandon Ingram for John Collins and
Walker Kessler.
Speaker 4: I'm not ready to give up on Kesler just as
an asset and then he actually, no, if I have
to pay brandon Ingram two hundred million dollars, I'm definitely
not doing that.
Speaker 1: The theory of that might yeah, because if the theory
was we just want the expiring contract rather than like
the extra season of John Collins, the deal is sort
of like, maybe you don't want to use Walker Kessler
just to get off money and Brent brand Ingram's good.
I guess if there was like a three team scenario
where okay, you're not taking on maybe you're taking back
bad money and that's how you're getting a first round
pick or a prospect or something. That's one of those
deals where it's I kind of understand it for both teams,
But if that's the outcome to like the brandon Ingram
slash Walker Kesler, John Collins, the backle I don't love
for either Peo.
Speaker 4: Well, and like, are you doing that to free up
a bunch of cap space to spend in free agency
as the Utah Jazz, Like that's I got to question
the premise.
Speaker 1: Of that of that And but at that point though,
you would have brandon Ingram, Lowry market In Colin Sexton
some of these maybe can't they George Pops, maybe Teller
Hendricks Pops, Like do you just look at us like, well.
Speaker 2: They're not trying that. You're even more confusing because.
Speaker 1: It's right, you're clearly not a bottom four team, but
you're you're also not a top ten team.
Speaker 3: Probably yeah, you're like the Jazz are in a.
Speaker 4: Great position, Like we love all their draft actuality, we
like their young players. Marketing in I think is just
worth what he got. But it's like they're also kind
of quietly in the middle. All those picks make it
a little different, but.
Speaker 3: They are kind of it's like they're their upward.
Speaker 4: And downward mobility is pretty limited. I would say, all right,
my turn, I'm not going to pick this team because
I want you to take them. I'm going to take
the Chicago Bulls. This is a fairly obvious one. They
need to trade Zach lavine I from their perspective, I
would not counsel doing that. While you potentially have to
give up assets to move him, I think if he
is reasonably healthy and actually plays like uninterrupted to start,
you know, the first few weeks of the season.
Speaker 3: That his value has got to go up.
Speaker 4: I just I don't think three years in one thirty
eight is like, oh my god, we can't have that
on the books.
Speaker 3: So move him. But maybe not like right now, when
he's never gonna be less valuable.
Speaker 4: Vucevich doesn't make sense on this team. He could even
make the case that, like we've said this previously, Kobe
White and I would assume we were on phenomenal deals.
But it's kind of like I can't extend them. They're
not going to help you tank, they're not going to
help you make the playoffs, so like what's happening not
saying you should trade them. And then there's the Giddy piece,
which is so is he a cornerstone?
Speaker 2: Now?
Speaker 3: Is that what we're interesting?
Speaker 1: I'm sorry aside, you watch Kobe White last year and
like your idea is like, well, let's get someone who
ensures he's gonna have the ball.
Speaker 3: Less, right, let's take it out of his hands. What's
the what's the point?
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, so I guess he did play with
Damar to Rosen, but like that was also Zachlvine wasn't
really in the lineup for much of last year. So
now you probably argue because you're not gonna help his
trade value by not playing zachben.
Speaker 4: Well, I mean just DeRozan, Like DeRozan has to command
like maximum defensive attention. That's gonna help Kobe White a
little bit. Josh Giddy is kind of like ignored a
lot of the time and is not obviously not as
threatening on the ball, even though he has to have
the ball to have a lot of value. It's just
I think the Bulls are kind of they're they're taking
baby steps towards the teardown we've advocated for forever, but
it's it's not I mean, there's a long way to
go here with some of these like big contract vets
that are still around.
Speaker 1: Would you if it was just if you could just
get shorter contracts back? But the Lakers trade we kind
of outlined where it's like okay, like they're giving you
ruey and they'll throwing delos expiring and they'll get the
get gay Vincent's in there, he's expiring. Are you making
that type of trade for Zaqualeene at this point if
your Chicago.
Speaker 3: If I don't have to give up a pick to
get off of that.
Speaker 2: Contract, I think that kind of your standard.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I I think so, because one I think
if zach Lavine like plays pretty well, he might keep
you like in the thirties win range. Right, you're not
getting to the fifties obviously, or even the mid forties,
but just to clean things up, it's so much easier
to trade those smaller deals if you need to. And
just like obviously zach Lavine doesn't want to be there,
like that's been a parent for a long time. The
Bulls don't want him there. So if we're gonna let's
do a vibe cleanup too in the meantime by trading
him for guys that are have smaller deals.
Speaker 1: I still one of my sort of just I don't
know what the package would look like. I don't even
know if I would advocate for them doing it. I'd
be so curious to see what Zack Lavine could look
like in Toronto. Is like one of those teams where
it's if you had him in quickly in Barns and
like that's your basis as of everyone else is just
to me, I would view them as fungible.
Speaker 2: I would watch the hell out of that team.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it'd be a fun team.
Speaker 4: And again, Toronto's kind of in the middle too, and
Levine might be it might get you in the playoffs.
Speaker 3: I don't know, like it's possible.
Speaker 2: Would you move?
Speaker 1: I think this is more of a question for Kobe White,
because I would assume we'll get you something, but he's
not just like this can't miss type of player. If
Kobe White is the most improved player candidate that he
was last season, and he does have a ton off
ball value as a ton of momball value, doesn't it
make sense if the Bulls actually are concerned about the
big picture to move him when his values at his peak,
because it's sort of a similar situation that Washington was
in with Denny Avdya, except the salaries even lower. He's
not extending off of this number, and so I know
he's maybe we're getting too far ahead of the game,
but you're gonna have to pay Josh Giddy. So now,
if you're going to funnel just a bunch of your
money in two years time to Josh Giddy and Kobe White,
that's just like kind of an uninspiring spot to be
as a team that I'm assuming will be like rebuilding
at that point, or maybe they don't fancy themselves that
he's the player where I don't think they have to
move him, But I also don't think his value is
gonna be any higher than it is now externally, and
I don't think that his internal value is enough when
looking at how cheap his deal.
Speaker 2: Is to say, well, we can't move him. He's our
entire future.
Speaker 4: Well, and I think too, like as more and more
teams find themselves second Apron and it's like, oh my god,
we need somebody that makes a difference, But we can't
give up two or three salaries to get him. But
I don't know what team I'm talking about because most
of them also don't have picks anymore to trade. But like,
Kobe White is someone that a team could look at
that like is pretty inflexible and say like, well, we
got this one bad contract and like two firsts, we'll
take Kobe White for that because we're in win now
mode and yeah, we and maybe like maybe it's I
don't know, more palatable for a team like that to
try to extend him off that number. If it's I
don't know, I just think I think you're right ultimately
that Kobe White is someone that is underpaid and but
also may not be good enough to be a cornerstone.
And the Bulls can't keep him anyway, so like you
might want to it's counterintuitive, but you might want to
look at moving him while you can't.
Speaker 1: I wonder if because and it's it's funny that we
have to look at it this way. Now he's on
such a good contract that it hurts his future value
because team are like, well, he has two seasons left,
which is great, but like, are we going to have
him beyond that? But a team like Orlando would they
give up a first and Anthony Black or if it's
Tristan to Silva like one of their young guys salary
and at a pick for Kobe White. I love that
fit immediately, But as Orlando, you're kind of getting into Okay, well,
we already matched out.
Speaker 2: Franz Palo is not going to be.
Speaker 1: Too far behind, and then we're gonna have to pay
Jaohen Suggs something. Kobe White is valuable in the sense of, oh,
two more years of cost control.
Speaker 2: What happens after that?
Speaker 1: I think I'm still making the move because two years
is kind of a long time, and it's just you
deal with that.
Speaker 2: You cross that bridge when you need to get there.
Speaker 1: But I do think teams will because it is semi close,
and especially by the way, that would be the value
in moving him now, is that teams will if they
move him at the deadline or something, or any of
these players, assuming they're viewed as assets. It's like that's
just less time on their deals with Kobe White specifically,
that's gonna make him less valuable.
Speaker 4: Kobe White to Orlando is the trade I did not
know I needed now and now I'm I'm on one
hundred percent on board with making that.
Speaker 1: Lando doesn't like taking swings apparently based off of it.
Speaker 4: But again, if it's Orlando and they're giving up a
first it's like, all right, well, that's gonna be the twenty.
Speaker 2: Second pick Denvers pick this year.
Speaker 1: I don't think that'll be too spy, by the way,
I don't. I think we've I mentioned this in the
Orlando Magic look Ahead, but they part of their offseason
grade needs to factor in that they poached one of
the five most important players of the team whose draft
pick they own this year.
Speaker 2: That's just that's next level right there.
Speaker 3: You love to see it.
Speaker 2: So before I pick one.
Speaker 1: Do you have any these this team needs to be
on this list? Because I think I have two more
teams that I'm kind of just like up in the
air with.
Speaker 4: Well, I have two more teams on my list, and
I don't feel I'm ready to almost like, well, I
think you know the one I'm talking about where.
Speaker 3: It's like, let's just play it cool and see what happens.
Everything's fine, all right, So.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the Sacramento kid, the Golden State Warriors.
That's the one I go back and forth on because
they have a lot of depth, and they've made other
moves already. It's not like this rotation is barren, but
they've also been at least a little and I would
say way more than that, intrigued by making some type
of bigger swing. They were linked to Paul George, they
were linked to Larry market In. You could play Devil's
advocate and say, well, based off what they were willing
to give up for Larry Marketing, they're not actually serious
about making these big time upgrades, which is fine, But
I look at this team and I say, there are
so many things that they clearly still need even though
they're deep. And you have Steph Curry going to his
age thirty six season, you have Raymond Green I think
this is going to be his age thirty four season.
Or they're like what are you doing here? Like are
you just trusting that? And I think this is why
I'm not sure. If you're saying, well, those two plus
Kamingo plus pods plus our depth, like that'll allow us
to make some noise and there's no one out there,
there's no move we can make that would elevate us
to title contender status. I do think Paul George would
have brought them there temporarily. I don't I love the
Larry market in fit. I don't think he would have
quite nudged them up to that level. And so I
might almost default towards what it looks like you're going
to land on, and it's we kind of have to
let this play out because they have a bunch of goodies.
They could move, but what is the like the move
they need to make almost needs to be so massive
that I can't envision it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, So I've I've really like vacillated on on where
I think because we've done an over, we've done a
better or worse pot where I thought the Warriors would
win more than they did last year. But now I'm
working on something else where It's like I kind of
think they're going to be a lottery team just because
the wet You know, they might make the play in
but I don't know that's a coin flip, just because
as they're presently constructed, if you believe them to be
more than a seven, eight, nine ten seed in the West,
you're saying, put pajem Ski and coming are going to
get significantly better, like to the point where it's less
of a press and concern that they just don't have
anybody to give them a shot on nights that Curry
doesn't play or gets so much defensive attention or just
at his age is off, like he's gonna have more
off nights the older he gets. That is, the highlights
will still be there, they'll just be more bad nights.
That's that's how aging works. So like if it's if
a status quo, then okay, cool. You need massive growth
like today from a lot of guys, and you need
a lot of these depth pieces to hit and someone
like d' anthony Melton to like exceed what you think
you're gonna get from him, which is possible. But again
I'm with you in that, like what's the move? Like
what it seems you know, they have a decent amount
of draft assets, they have the young guys to do.
Like it's not a it's not like an asset problem.
It's just like a what do we throw all that
stuff at and at the moment that guy's not out
there the does it give you any solace that when
kaminga Pods, Green and Curry played together without Thompson or
CP three last year, the Warriors were plus fourteen point
four points per one hundred possessions. I guarantee you obviously
that that and much more in depth numbers are well
known within the organization. And it's just like, okay, like
this is a viable strategy based on some data that
this might actually work.
Speaker 3: It might be good enough.
Speaker 4: But you can't be you can't look at that and
say like, oh, perfect, Like there's definitely no need for
an upgrade here, Like it's possible, but I don't know.
It's just that's you need a lot to break right
for the current team to be better than last year.
Speaker 1: And I also think like they can't even go well
at least with this specific player. Now, I think you
could talk I bet you you're gonna say no, you
could probably talk me into if it's just contracts, and
those contracts are Wiggins Looney.
Speaker 2: So that's about seventeen million right there. Actually just gets
them there.
Speaker 1: So Wiggins Looney and Gary Payton get you, Zach Levine,
do you do it?
Speaker 2: Just as I don't know what that does to your defense?
Speaker 1: But like it's a bet on Kaminga, it's a bet
on Draymond, it's a bet on Okay, we have Danthony Melton.
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I think.
Speaker 4: I mean, if I'm gonna make the argument that the
Lakers should do that for guys who's caught like I
don't know or any of the guys we mentioned for
the Lakers, like certainly not Reeves. We tried to keep
him out, but like your Vanderbilts and Vincent's and Rui's, Like,
are those guys contracts viewed as worse than Wiggins? Like,
couldn't you make the case that, like, the Warriors should
actually want to get off that Wiggins money, even though
it's not huge, it's just you never know what you're
gonna get from that guy. I think, if I'm going
to be consistent, the Warriors probably should do that. But
then the question is, like, was that was that enough?
I guess if you still got your draft assets to
try it later, I'm.
Speaker 2: Saying you don't give up Pod.
Speaker 1: And maybe maybe it even takes Moody because they clearly
hate him for some reason. I don't know what he did,
but I I probably would at right now, and I
don't think Chicago would do it.
Speaker 2: I would probably just draw the line at it.
Speaker 1: But if you told me they had to give up Moody,
I'd probably you could tell me into it. But if
it's just the contracts, I'm doing it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you probably should.
Speaker 2: And by the way, the worst thing that happens is
you're just way worse.
Speaker 1: Than expected and your own draft picks are more valuable
than like there there you go.
Speaker 4: Well, and like, if Lavigne has a remotely healthy season,
you're gonna be able. And he's then he has two
years left on his dealer, You're gonna find somebody to
take him and probably give you back, Like you're not
gonna give up more stuff to get off that contract.
Speaker 1: I don't think that's Like I guess as a passer,
he only does the basic stuff, and I feel like
a last's roar with him a lot of time. But
like that's someone who I go back and forth because
it's like part of the appeal Steph Curry is having
him off the ball while someone else has it, and
so does Zach Levine really fit that motif? But like
you guy have Zack Lavine and Curry off the ball
while Draymond's on the ball, that'd be fun.
Speaker 4: Levine's not gonna do any more damage on either end
than Thompson did last year, and Thompson played a ton like,
I mean, that's just.
Speaker 3: Where we are at this point.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's a weird situation because you in to
a greater degree than some of the other teams we've
talked about. There is like a pretty decent argument for
like just yeah, it feels like there's a move to make,
but like kind of hold off a little bit, even
though the curry of it all and like this thing
could end tomorrow, you owe it to him.
Speaker 3: Stuff is like, you know, obviously really persuasive.
Speaker 1: The last team I have is that I'm just not
sure and it's mostly because I don't really know what
they're doing, is the Atlanta Hawks, And so like you
look at like the top of their rotation, So you
have Trey Young, Boda Mardanovitch, Zachary Resi, che Jalen Johnson,
Clint Capella on Yakka Kungu, Larry Nance Junior, DeAndre Hunter,
Dyson Daniels. That's nine real guys. And depending on how
you feel about vit Crachi and his defense or Gareth
Garrison Matthews and his shooting. They also have Kobe Buffkin here.
So there's just a lot of dudes. But you look
at it and it's Okay, how good are all these
dudes together? And so it's compounded by, well, you have
Zachary resis Chet, who's going to be a rookie and
he should play a bunch. And then it's like Jalen
Johnson and on Yakak like those guys aren't finished products
themselves either, But you also have Trey Young and then
it's we don't control our next three draft picks, and
so it feels like they should be more and we
just moved to Jane Murray for a future focused packing though,
because Dyson Daniels, that's another guy who is a developmental project.
I don't I don't understand what they're doing, but I
also don't know what else they're supposed to. Like, if
you told me they then turn around and move those
two first round picks, they got to get a wing,
I'd have to ask, Okay, well who is the wing?
This feels like when I say they need to do something,
I almost kind of just wonder, like just go out
and trade for Dorian and Finney Smith already, or go
out and get Cam Johnson. Like it just feels like
they need someone who comes closer to being a two
way wing and established two way wing on this team,
we don't know. Zachary reached to say he's gonna fit
that bill out of the gate. Dyson Daniels good passer,
some nice feel in the lane, but he's not two
way yet. But the offense isn't all the way there.
And there's questions with the jump shot we saw some
maybe the floater falls at a higher clip.
Speaker 2: Do they belong to this discussion?
Speaker 4: Like I know they do, because you could see like
you were saying, you can draw up scenarios. We're like, okay,
this is a consolidation trade team. They need a package
up two or three of these guys and turn it
into you know, a difference maker, or it could be
like this is a strip it down team.
Speaker 3: We got to move Propella.
Speaker 4: We've been trying to, you know, with DeAndre Hunter even
a Kong Wove since apparently he's just not going to
start despite getting that extension. And then like the real
over art, like the big like move is and now
not having control of your draft picks is a huge issue.
You'd have to get back enough to justify this, and
you already have reesa Shae, but there's like this is
a thirty six.
Speaker 3: Win team last year.
Speaker 4: If they come out and go like two and eleven
or something, the Trey Young talk is gonna start again,
because like, what are you doing with this guy making
this much on a team that's gonna win in the
thirties again?
Speaker 3: Like so you could you could draw up like this.
Speaker 4: Needs to be blown up in this way, this way,
this way, and this way, and it's unclear which way
is the best one. I really do think for them
more than a lot of these other teams, the early
part of the season is going to be really informative
because depending on how it goes, how the mix looks,
how Reesa Sa looks like, if Reesi Sha comes out
and defies expectations and looks like someone that's like, oh
my god, he actually is someone to build around and
not just the dude who was there in the draft
we happen to win the lottery for then you've got
all this cover to Really it's like, oh, we got
our piece. Who cares if we don't have our future picks.
We can rebuild around him and Jalen Johnson a.
Speaker 3: Lot of ways to go.
Speaker 4: This current roster is like, there's no way the Hawks finish,
get to the trade deadline pass it and look like
this like I do. However, whatever shape it takes, there's
no way.
Speaker 1: There's also just I think what I don't know if
it hurts them of it depends on what they're doing.
But we mentioned okay, the tray young noise might start again,
but what is the benefits moving and when you.
Speaker 2: Don't control your own draft picks.
Speaker 1: And also then the optics of what if he just
as an example, because it's so fresh, what if he
just gets you actively less than the nets gotten for
Michael Bridges.
Speaker 3: I mean he probably would.
Speaker 1: I mean it's five first round picks in a swap
that they got, so but how does that you would
have to believe that. It feels like if they're gonna
move Young, it'll be in service of Okay, we're still
like trying to we're not rebuilding, we're retooling. We think
that maybe we're better long term, but like we're good
enough in the short term that we're not hunting on
these rep and san Antonio sitting there laughing because they
own our control our first rounders. I will say, this
does feel like a team if they can figure it
out financially, because they're not going to be attacks like
if Jimmy Butler, Kawhi Leonard is just available and like
their value has reached the madea of the point where
like you don't need a ton of this future, Like
you're not giving up Resa Schet of course, like that's
just a non starter, but like kind of other and
you're not giving up Jalen Johnson, who might sign an extension,
but like you're kind of just everything else is sort
of fungible.
Speaker 2: This might be. This could be the team where I'm like.
Speaker 1: I could just see them rolling the dice here because
what is the you know, I don't know what Jimmy
Butler's personality would be like next to Trey Young that
I'd tune in, I'll tell you that much.
Speaker 3: I'm very curious. That would be exciting.
Speaker 4: Yeah, No, I think I think, like I said, like,
I think that's a plausible outcome.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 4: And as is just like we're gonna we got enough
young pieces, we'll get some pick, we'll get control of
somebody else's draft, and we'll just rely, we'll just kind
of start this over because the Trey Young thing is
winning us thirty something games, and that's not good enough. Well,
we'd like to take option number two. You know it
might get to that point too.
Speaker 3: So yeah, the.
Speaker 4: Hawks are the Hawks are just in a weird limbo
where I don't know which direction they need to move,
but they got they need to move one where, and well.
Speaker 1: They kind of like it's been determined for them a
little bit because of the whole draft pick thing. And
so the longer you don't make a move, I would say,
the stronger the duality will be.
Speaker 2: Where it's once you get.
Speaker 1: To the middle of the seasons, it become even harder
to make the choice because, oh, it's clearer than ever
that we.
Speaker 2: Shouldn't reinvest in this team.
Speaker 1: But right with the argument for divesting at this point
when we don't own our draft picks, is there any
other team that, like, I'm comfortable with every other team
standing path, The one I would advocate for would be
the Magic, just like, let's get another kind of off
the dribble shot maker force baser in there. But need
is a strong word because we just did our regrades
for them, and it's they decided to bet on themselves
last summer on an internal development and they ended up
the offense was slow, but they ended up being good
at to win a bunch of more games. Maybe it's
the same scenario this year after adding Kabo is called
a pope, But there's just a team where it's like
if players like a brogged in or a sex in
or a like they're sitting on the market like Kobe
White and it's Kobe White's different, that would probably be
a real but Anthony Simon's that it's it's really costing us,
like one of our young players and a you know,
pick I'm looking at it, Ihim Orlando.
Speaker 4: I think I am too, But I am more and
more persuaded by their apparent wisdom in just saying we
we you know.
Speaker 3: We thought we'd get better.
Speaker 4: We thought we believed in Jalen Suggs and Paolo and
like by the way, Franz bognern did not get better
and they still improved as a team, like he could
have a rebound year. I you know, we love to
see all the change and the rebuilds and the teardowns
and the go for our trades and like the magic
are kind of just like tiptoeing along and it's kind
of working so far, and maybe they still will have
the assets to just go take the big swing when
the time's right and we're just being impatient about it.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 4: Uh, yeah, they they do feel like obviously they have
a need, right they did not at the floor general
type that we kind of wanted him to in the
back court.
Speaker 3: But I don't know, maybe maybe Jalen Suggs just starts
doing that.
Speaker 4: Like who knows there's and maybe you get so much
playmaking from Paolo and Franz that it doesn't matter. Yeah
that I don't really have any other teams we could
talk about Miami, but that's more just like we have
a rough idea of what the heater gonna be and
they're only built to make like a huge swing, and
like that guy's not out there to justify that they.
Speaker 1: Would be they might getting to the money would be
tough now that I'm thinking about it, and also the yeah,
but like they'd be a Kawhi Leonard team if he
just becomes a veil, Like would they take the swing?
Speaker 3: Then? Does he move as far from the southern California.
Speaker 2: And if he retired, he'd be the only person gets
traded to Miami. He needs No, I'm retiring. I don't
want to be in Miami.
Speaker 3: A great place to retire by the way that a
lot of people do that.
Speaker 1: So you know, I guess they just kind of need
to see, like how much better does him may Hawk
as get what does Khalil wear end up helping us
out a bunch? His hero and Butler able to stay
healthier because there's still the bones of a good team.
But there I have them closer to the hall than
I do like a team that.
Speaker 2: I'm like in Orlando.
Speaker 1: If you're asking me about the trajectories, I'm I'm more
confused and down on Miami than I'm like, Oh this
this uncertainty's really optionality, which is what the Magic have.
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, very very different.
Speaker 4: But then we'll just check back on this in a
few months and the Heat will have like beaten the
number one seed in the first round or something like that.
Speaker 1: You did mention one other team, the Nets. Do you
think that they need to like there's the Cam Johnson
and Doryan Finney Smith of it all. I guess if
you want to consider, if we're not going to extend
Cam Thomas to we view him as a core player.
I think Nick Claxton probably becomes like the apple of
someone's affections when his trade restriction lifts, but that's a.
Speaker 2: Non starter right now.
Speaker 1: I do personally think it's I think having the conversation
is fine. If the right Cam Johnson or DFS deal
comes along, I doubt my guess would be I doubt
Dorrian and Finny Smith improves his trade value. Maybe there's
a chance Cam Johnson does, but I think you risk
the floor of their value coming out from underneath them,
just because you still don't have any real aside from
Dennis Shrewder table setters on this team. But in a vacuum,
you could do nothing. And I think that you're like,
you're gonna be bad.
Speaker 3: I think that's right.
Speaker 4: And I think too that when it comes to Phinney
Smith or Cam Johnson, you're right, their value is not
going to change. But and this is why waiting doesn't
really matter, because one who cares. You're not trying to
win games this year. You've got control of your picks
back for the next two first rounds.
Speaker 3: But maybe the.
Speaker 4: Market conditions change around the deadline where several teams need
a Dorian Phinney Smith and suddenly the guy that you
probably couldn't get a first four desperation and like competing
bar competing bids get you what you want for him,
So like, yeah, he doesn't make sense on this team,
and Cam Johnson kind of doesn't really either, But there's
not like the level of urgency like they could go
all the way through.
Speaker 3: And even in the next offseason.
Speaker 4: I guess if you wanted to just you, I think
you just kind of wait and see who gets kind
of reckless in their bidding for those guys, because keeping
them on the roster doesn't really matter for Brooklyn.
Speaker 2: With you, I'm out of teams, me too, take us
out of here.
Speaker 4: Sure, I'm out of teams. I'll take us out. Thanks
everybody for checking in. Let us know if we like
over we probably overlooked a team or at least give
us some.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Boston like they probably need to trade one to jail.
Speaker 3: I don't know, Dan, I just don't know. So yeah,
let us know.
Speaker 4: Thanks for listening, for watching, Make sure your rate review, subscribe,
do all the things to help the podcast grow. Word
of mouth helps, tell your friends, tell your enemies. Check
out our merch Dan is supporting it now links to
get that or into YouTube and podcast description, as is
how to get to our discord channel.
Speaker 3: I think that's going to cover it, shouts Frank apologies.
Jarrett