Speaker 1: Get ready for it you.
Speaker 2: April fifteen, twenty twenty six, allegedly according to that thing
Speaker 2: we call a calendar. You know, they also used to
Speaker 2: call this tax Day. Hopefully you've taken care of all that,
Speaker 2: and we are live on a Wednesday Wodnesday, middle of
Speaker 2: the week. But of course most of you will catch
Speaker 2: the podcast later on down the stream, and that's just
Speaker 2: fine by me because at least you're listening and listening
Speaker 2: in anyway, this is a good one. Also continuing on
Speaker 2: with the theme of thanking people that decided to chip
Speaker 2: in for the big yearly bills to help me pay them.
Speaker 2: You know, I will once again mention that Ed and
Speaker 2: b Pete and I'm looking over to my side here
Speaker 2: trying to catch something and not not reveal that to you. Anyways,
Speaker 2: Danny and of course our friend regular Joe all contributed
Speaker 2: to help us get through. And that's still going on.
Speaker 2: And if you want to be thank the rest of
Speaker 2: the week, do so by contributing at o'chelly dot com
Speaker 2: and that is through cash app or the PayPal for
Speaker 2: missus oh, because they took mine away any who. Enough
Speaker 2: of that, part of my thank you this week is
Speaker 2: to bring on Larry Hancock and his co author for
Speaker 2: The Oswald Puzzle, David Boylin. Oh wow, I said the
Speaker 2: a correctly at that time. Anyways, David Boylan, who has
Speaker 2: been his co author on this book, and of course
Speaker 2: I highly recommended the first version of it. There is
Speaker 2: an update. That update is worthy of an update, because
Speaker 2: you know me, I will tell you, guys if somebody's
Speaker 2: just trying to sell you another book instead of giving
Speaker 2: you some worthy information that needed to be added to
Speaker 2: the volume. And again, I highly recommend this book for
Speaker 2: the study of Lee Harvey Oswald. I think it's an
Speaker 2: excellent piece and stands alone. But then again, I recommend
Speaker 2: all of Larry Hancock's books and have them all physically
Speaker 2: on my shelf, every last one, and you should too.
Speaker 2: But this one tonight we're talking about is The Oswald Puzzle.
Speaker 2: Of course, there will be links to Larry Hancock in
Speaker 2: the show notes. You know, David, I don't know if
Speaker 2: you have a centralized website to go to, but you
Speaker 2: need to email that to me so I can include
Speaker 2: it in the show notes. I forgot to ask you
Speaker 2: about that before we started to record here, but I
Speaker 2: definitely need that from you, and just if you could
Speaker 2: make a mental note. If you're as good as me,
Speaker 2: you'll need to be reminded again later, but that's okay.
Speaker 2: Hopefully I'll have David's information in the show notes in
Speaker 2: case you want to reach out or to further exploration
Speaker 2: of any other work that David does. But I do
Speaker 2: highly recommend the Oswald puzzles. So enough out of me.
Speaker 2: Even though I went to air twelve minutes late, I
Speaker 2: only took three minutes to ramble at the beginning, so
Speaker 2: that's not bad for o'helley, Larry. How you doing tonight?
Speaker 3: First off, didn't find Chuck.
Speaker 4: Thanks, it actually rains some here. Thanks are green. It's
Speaker 4: a lovely spring, so it's a late late spring in
Speaker 4: an early spring both and they're even mosquitoes out already.
Speaker 2: And you know what you sound kind of chipper, which
Speaker 2: is good because you know, when it rains, I get
Speaker 2: miserable because I feel every bone I ever broke as
Speaker 2: soon as it rains around me, or even before it does,
Speaker 2: the pressure drops. But I love it that you enjoy
Speaker 2: the weather and where you're at. So David, you know
Speaker 2: you haven't made too many appearances on the show, but
Speaker 2: definitely glad to have you along, and I've seen you
Speaker 2: in person and everything, and especially it was interesting when
Speaker 2: you were presenting live and Larry was virtual at a
Speaker 2: conference not too long ago.
Speaker 5: That was fun.
Speaker 2: There may be several jokes we could add here, but
Speaker 2: let's not do that. How you doing tonight, sir?
Speaker 6: I am doing good, doing well. That is nice trippers, Larry,
Speaker 6: but I'm doing pretty good well.
Speaker 5: That's okay.
Speaker 2: Few of us can be anywhere near like Larry Hancock.
Speaker 5: I mean that's you know, no jokes either.
Speaker 2: Anyways, David, I'm kind of going to start with you
Speaker 2: believe it or not, and I want Larry to frame
Speaker 2: things as he feels appropriate, because there is an increase
Speaker 2: of information here in this volume, the Oswald puzzle once again,
Speaker 2: and I'm sure I'll include a picture of the book
Speaker 2: along with the show graphics, so if you don't recognize it,
Speaker 2: it's a fairly well known photo of Oswald on the
Speaker 2: front cover. Interesting design, and definitely advise you get yourself
Speaker 2: a physical copy because you know, not you, David, but
Speaker 2: other people need to get a physical copy because I
Speaker 2: don't know. I am just a physical copy book kind
Speaker 2: of guy. If it's worth having, it's worth keeping and
Speaker 2: this digital stuff can be changed, deleted, altered at any time,
Speaker 2: So you know, I appreciate the physical book, and even
Speaker 2: the they will look almost exactly the same on your bookshelf.
Speaker 2: It's worth it to get the second one. Anyway, Enough plugs, David,
Speaker 2: you wound up going into you know, not just you alone, obviously,
Speaker 2: but you spent quite a bit of time working on
Speaker 2: the New Orleans angle here, and this is always big
Speaker 2: bones of contention, big problems. We've seen this story in
Speaker 2: a lot of places, even in the most famous of places,
Speaker 2: like the movie JFK, etc. You know, and there is
Speaker 2: just a labyrinth of information available regarding this character Oswald.
Speaker 2: And I call him a character because well he is
Speaker 2: quite the character, somebody who only lived to be twenty
Speaker 2: four years old, who did quite a bit in his
Speaker 2: short life, and some of it in New Orleans. So
Speaker 2: if you could, you know, without giving a lot away,
Speaker 2: give us an idea of, you know, some of the
Speaker 2: stuff that you expound upon in the New Orleans section
Speaker 2: that you contributed here to the Oswald.
Speaker 5: Puzzle, please sure a couple of things. First.
Speaker 6: First of all, this book wouldn't exist without Rex Bradford.
Speaker 6: I just want to throw that out there. He was
Speaker 6: such a big help both you know, the update and
Speaker 6: the original one, so much editing, and you'd call us
Speaker 6: out on a lot of things that made us actually
Speaker 6: you know, reference everything documented like so excellent.
Speaker 2: Right, you know what, David, Here's the way that I
Speaker 2: would put this is that, thankfully in jfk Land, a
Speaker 2: lot of things do and do not exist because of
Speaker 2: Rex Bradford, and we are all better off for it. Okay,
Speaker 2: the things that do exist and the things that don't
Speaker 2: because of Rex are both very positive things. I mean,
Speaker 2: not even to mention all of his work at Mary
Speaker 2: Farrell Foundation, and even the very early work. They're scanning
Speaker 2: a lot of documentation making it available to us all
Speaker 2: among other things. Plus he was editing this book with
Speaker 2: you guys, and he is a tough editor. To my understanding.
Speaker 2: Is that all accurate according to you, David? Or did
Speaker 2: I have something wrong?
Speaker 6: Yeah? He's such a cool, low key guy. But yes,
Speaker 6: he is very demanding, but in a nice polate way,
Speaker 6: you know. But yeah, I mean, the Mary Farrell Foundation
Speaker 6: is priceless.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 6: Again, I've been doing this for like thirty something years.
Speaker 6: I remember the old you'd have to you know, right
Speaker 6: into narrow and you know, tell them what you wanted.
Speaker 6: They would photocopy and send it to you one hundred
Speaker 6: pages for free, you know. So that's all we get
Speaker 6: back in those days on any subject, you know. But
Speaker 6: with the Mary Farrell Foundation, you know, the queries are
Speaker 6: can do. The database awesome. You know, it helps build
Speaker 6: the knowledge base, you know, and helps you know what's
Speaker 6: in our heads, you know, just like, oh, that's being
Speaker 6: it to make sense. Now now we have kryptonyms. Now
Speaker 6: we know that all these people are. Now we got
Speaker 6: you know, really released documents or updated documents where the
Speaker 6: redactions are going they're unredacted. Now now we know that
Speaker 6: you know, this person was contacted by this person. Now
Speaker 6: we know who that's. You know, this guy's pseudonym was
Speaker 6: Cayle Trenton, will you know, we'll talk about him a
Speaker 6: little bit. You know, he was Carl Thiels and his
Speaker 6: dealings with Augustine Guitot, you know, who is Sylvia Odio's uncle.
Speaker 6: But but yeah, I mean that's where we're at now,
Speaker 6: which is why we're able to update this book. We
Speaker 6: just kept digging, building out relationships, who these people are
Speaker 6: and taking a fresh look at you know who Oswald
Speaker 6: was actually dealing.
Speaker 5: With in New Orleans.
Speaker 6: You know, we'll go back to the original like all right,
Speaker 6: guy Bannister, David Ferry, Kerry Thornley. But I had never
Speaker 6: really got us anywhere. You know, a lot of dead ends,
Speaker 6: you know. So when we started looking at the people
Speaker 6: at Oswald was actually dealing with, they were the Cubans
Speaker 6: that that recalls them, the old school Cubans, you know,
Speaker 6: the old guys from the CRC Cuban Revolutionary consul They
Speaker 6: were at Oswald's you know, court appearance.
Speaker 5: And why would at Oswald's court appearance? How do they
Speaker 5: know about him?
Speaker 6: So that's where we started to dig in and flesh
Speaker 6: out these characters to find out they're role CIA connected,
Speaker 6: you know, literally CIA connected.
Speaker 2: Right now, let me just interrupt you here to clarify
Speaker 2: for the audience. Of course, the court appearance you're talking
Speaker 2: about is the very well known incident where there was
Speaker 2: the scuffle in the street let's call it between Oswald,
Speaker 2: Carlos Berengeer, and some other Cuban individuals when he was
Speaker 2: handing out leaflets in public and then there was an incident. Meanwhile,
Speaker 2: he goes to court and winds up paying something like
Speaker 2: a ten dollar fine I think with at the time
Speaker 2: something like that, you know, and and walking out. But
Speaker 2: he's the only guy who got fined in the incident.
Speaker 2: Let's say I'm holding up air quotes for you guys
Speaker 2: at home, I can't see you know that that occurs here.
Speaker 2: But that leads to a whole thing where he gets
Speaker 2: seen in public, you know, on a couple of different broadcasts.
Speaker 2: He gets heard on a radio station or a well,
Speaker 2: you know, Latin listening post. And of course it seems
Speaker 2: like CIA people are everywhere, whether they're being funded or
Speaker 2: possibly even controlled by all around this guy one way
Speaker 2: or another. I mean, is that an unfair way to
Speaker 2: remind people what court case we're talking about here?
Speaker 5: No, that's perfect, That's exactly it. Okay, Yeah, So.
Speaker 2: Going forward, you start looking at who's connected to who
Speaker 2: he's interacting with, and uh, you know, just give us
Speaker 2: an idea of a couple of the things that you
Speaker 2: used to build out those relationships, if you don't mind,
Speaker 2: maybe you know, tell us about Okay, we found something.
Speaker 2: Because obviously people have gone over this before and have
Speaker 2: made some you know, pretty interesting claims sometimes with some
Speaker 2: gaps in their information, sometimes with a little bit of
Speaker 2: misdirection because quite honestly, they had a predetermined idea it
Speaker 2: seemed like to me where they wanted to go with it.
Speaker 2: But there is a lot of directions that somebody could
Speaker 2: travel with that information because of the array of people
Speaker 2: around Oswald.
Speaker 5: Right, yeah, that's correct.
Speaker 6: So Lara and I we focused on maybe three, four
Speaker 6: or five different people and where that information went and
Speaker 6: who these people were. I'll start off with one's still Rodrigez.
Speaker 6: He was a member of the CRC Cuban Revolutionary Console.
Speaker 6: He was the guy that would signed the checks, you know,
Speaker 6: and pay the rent for a five forty four Camp Street.
Speaker 6: He knew guy Banister because you know, they shared the building. No,
Speaker 6: Rodriguez admitted to knowing by Beans and all those guys.
Speaker 6: That's a quote from him when he was actually interviewed.
Speaker 6: He was the guy that Oswald first approached in New
Speaker 6: Orleans about, you know, the Cuban exiles there. He wanted
Speaker 6: to learn Oswald wanted to learn how to speak Spanish
Speaker 6: because he was very interested in going to Cuba, you
Speaker 6: know that whole socialist you know, Fidel Castro movement there.
Speaker 6: So he approached honestill Rodriguez at the Modern School of Languages,
Speaker 6: and honest Rodriguez said, you know, he started to speak,
Speaker 6: you know, Russian to show up Oswald, show off I
Speaker 6: was Russian was and Honesto started to speak back Russian.
Speaker 6: But then he said he had to stop because Oswald's
Speaker 6: Russian was so much better than his.
Speaker 5: He just, you know, he said, I got lost.
Speaker 6: But then Oswald also asked him, are there any other
Speaker 6: local Cubans I can talk to? So he's the one
Speaker 6: that gave Oswald bring Gear's address and name. You know,
Speaker 6: we gave a couple of others game Frank Bartes a
Speaker 6: recipia or the local people, and this is who Oswald
Speaker 6: ended up going to see, you know, here Colse to
Speaker 6: see bring Gear. It talks about him and says, hey,
Speaker 6: you know, I could teach you know, the Cuban exiles
Speaker 6: how to shoot. I'm a marine, I you know, can
Speaker 6: help you guys out. And that's how originally originally first
Speaker 6: approached bring Gear. But then we all know about him
Speaker 6: passing out leaflets later on, and you know, in fair
Speaker 6: play for Cuba literature, and then.
Speaker 5: That's when uh who is it? Uh?
Speaker 6: Celzo Hernandez actually you know, went back to Kyles Springeer
Speaker 6: and said, hey, you know this guy that was in
Speaker 6: here before, he's outpassing pro you know, Castro literature. Right,
Speaker 6: So that was one connection.
Speaker 2: Right now, if you don't mind, I want to pause
Speaker 2: with you for a moment and go to Larry for
Speaker 2: some context here, because this is the incident where you know,
Speaker 2: again we do know about it, but Oswald hands over
Speaker 2: his marine handbook and all of that is sort of
Speaker 2: like a symbolic pledge I want to be on your side. Meanwhile,
Speaker 2: he goes out in the street and hands out leaplets
Speaker 2: that are pro castro, which doesn't fly well with these guys.
Speaker 2: How do we put this in context what David's talking
Speaker 2: about Larry.
Speaker 3: Well, a couple of things.
Speaker 4: The timeline's very important, and I think we often gloss
Speaker 4: over the timeline in New Orleans, just as we do
Speaker 4: sometimes the larger timeline, but before one thing so that
Speaker 4: everyone understands. The book that we're talking about that has
Speaker 4: the additional information is the paperback version. And just to
Speaker 4: explain and Chuck you had asked about this, the point
Speaker 4: is normally the publisher issues the paperback about six months
Speaker 4: or twelve months after the hardcover comes out right, And
Speaker 4: in this case, what really drove this whole process was
Speaker 4: the document releases. We knew that we wanted to look
Speaker 4: into this, and suddenly we were seeing new documents, you know,
Speaker 4: a year ago that show a much different connection between
Speaker 4: New Orleans and Miami than we'd ever seen before, much
Speaker 4: more in depth, involving different characters. There's just a much
Speaker 4: broader knowledge, and so that's what led David and I
Speaker 4: to work up this new material just context for the book.
Speaker 4: But that's why it's coming in that paperback edition. So
Speaker 4: if you want to find it, it's in the paperback.
Speaker 4: And then once the paperback is actually available, the publisher
Speaker 4: says they're going to put update the kindle to have
Speaker 4: it as well. But that's just a little backstory there.
Speaker 4: But the context for this and the timeline that's important
Speaker 4: for Oswald is there's been a lot of discussion about
Speaker 4: Oswald and bring here and the leaf linting, the incident
Speaker 4: and the dre and who did the Dr Tael and
Speaker 4: who did in the Dr Tael and joy EDI's that
Speaker 4: whole storyline. That's not the primary storyline that we follow
Speaker 4: in this new information as cheap and Revenuelutionary Council people,
Speaker 4: and the reason it's not is we found something common.
Speaker 3: In all of them.
Speaker 4: As soon as Oswald is arrest, has this hearing, he
Speaker 4: gets fine, he spends a night in jail, gets fined,
Speaker 4: He comes out. The next thing he does is contact
Speaker 4: the FBI and offer to provide information on this covert
Speaker 4: fair play for Cuba committee, and so like the next day,
Speaker 4: Oswald is lying about what he's doing in New Orleans.
Speaker 4: He's lying about who he's contacting. This is really interesting.
Speaker 4: Oswald starts lying. The interesting thing is the people that
Speaker 4: are in that hearing with Oswald, the old school CRC
Speaker 4: people start line too. A matter of fact, when the
Speaker 4: FBI comes back to Bartes and said, did you ever
Speaker 4: you know we're investigating this to the Harvey Osweald, because
Speaker 4: you know, we're coming kind of concerned that maybe didn't
Speaker 4: tell us the whole story of the truth.
Speaker 3: Artis says, I don't know who you're talking about. I
Speaker 3: don't know Oswald.
Speaker 4: Barnes, who is an FBI and CIA source cleared as
Speaker 4: a source and who actually will become operational with the CIA,
Speaker 4: lies to the FBI. So one thing that context wise,
Speaker 4: I think in the supporting is what David and I
Speaker 4: started looking at all of this information, and the really
Speaker 4: important point is everybody starts lying to every.
Speaker 2: Okay, Larry, do me a favor. Larry mute upon startling. Yeah, Larry,
Speaker 2: do me a favor. Larry, mute up for a couple
Speaker 2: of seconds, because your compression is breaking down a little bit,
Speaker 2: and I want to make sure people hear what you're saying,
Speaker 2: So just mute up for a couple seconds. Let me talk,
Speaker 2: and just throw a little bit of context into this
Speaker 2: as well, because David brought up you know that Oswalt's
Speaker 2: Russian was been, you know, a little bit too advance
Speaker 2: for somebody who was talking to Well, that would obviously
Speaker 2: be because he had just been in the Soviet Union
Speaker 2: not long before what was right in Minsk, so you know,
Speaker 2: he had had a bit of use of the Russian language,
Speaker 2: I would think while he was there, although according to
Speaker 2: some people he spent a lot of time speaking English,
Speaker 2: but obviously he picked up some. But this is fascinating
Speaker 2: because he's not only lying about things, and other people
Speaker 2: are seeming to fall in line with the same lies
Speaker 2: simultaneously on the record, but he's telling them I want
Speaker 2: to tell you about this covert fair Play for Cuba
Speaker 2: Committee thing, and the funny part again, as we know
Speaker 2: historically from the record, there was no official fair Play
Speaker 2: for Cuba Committee in New Orleans. He's got a fake
Speaker 2: chapter with some fake president he claims to be the
Speaker 2: treasurer in radio and TV interviews of this chapter of
Speaker 2: the fair Play for Cuba Committee that doesn't exist, and
Speaker 2: he's rating on it, the thing that he created out
Speaker 2: of thin air, and he's rating on it to the
Speaker 2: FEDS even though he's the one who actually created it
Speaker 2: on paper and didn't actually go through the process of
Speaker 2: creating a fair Play for Cuba Committee in New Orleans realistically.
Speaker 2: So there you go for part of the context on this.
Speaker 2: But also I think it's fascinating what you guys discover
Speaker 2: regarding how these things do sort of begin to make sense.
Speaker 2: You know, when everybody starts to tell the same story,
Speaker 2: it's not necessarily an indication of the truth, but it's
Speaker 2: an indication of coordination. In any criminal investigation, I mean,
Speaker 2: any any detective will tell you this. As soon as
Speaker 2: you see people telling the same consistent lies and sometimes
Speaker 2: using the same wording and everything else, you know, you
Speaker 2: got to start digging up on stuff because it's usually
Speaker 2: not Oh gee, since their stories matched, they must be true,
Speaker 2: which you know, most normal people would think of. But
Speaker 2: what was happening there in New Orleans was not very normal.
Speaker 2: So Larry, if you could continue to give some context. Now,
Speaker 2: hopefully your compression is better, because I don't want you
Speaker 2: breaking up while you're explaining this. Go ahead.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: The point is that there are different sets of people
Speaker 4: lying about Oswald, Right, you had these Cuban Revolutionary Council
Speaker 4: members and their line if someone approaches them, But it
Speaker 4: goes further than that.
Speaker 3: We know that.
Speaker 4: One of their long term associates named Carlos Carraga went
Speaker 4: to visit Learvy Oswald and presented himself as a Castor supporter.
Speaker 4: Oswald was impressed.
Speaker 3: He liked it.
Speaker 4: He was looking for people fellow trail. Garaga comes back
Speaker 4: and tells everybody, you know, I can talk to this guy.
Speaker 4: You know, we're inside. So we've got this group of
Speaker 4: people who essentially have penetrated Oswell in our position to
Speaker 4: talk to him, you know, and get him to agree
Speaker 4: with him. And they're on his side, which is very interesting.
Speaker 4: But they don't report that to the FBI, They don't
Speaker 4: report it to the CIA, Nobody follows along with the story.
Speaker 4: This is at the same time this is going on,
Speaker 4: the FBI is treating Oswald as a potential source because
Speaker 4: he's providing them information, right, And an interesting and interesting
Speaker 4: piece of speculation for that that David's brought up.
Speaker 3: You know, we've got.
Speaker 4: Five to four to four Camp Street, Well that's a
Speaker 4: that's the number that relates to the CRC and you know,
Speaker 4: and the building that they rented. And you know, Ernesto
Speaker 4: has the keys to the building, perhaps he loans, but
Speaker 4: Oswell get into the building, use it for office for
Speaker 4: a short period of time. You know, Banister knows this.
Speaker 4: Perhaps Warren de Burris, the subversive disc FBI agent in
Speaker 4: New Orleans who's in contact with Banister, we know that
Speaker 4: passes on the word that you know, Oswell's he's our guy.
Speaker 4: He's helping us provide information on the FPCC. So maybe
Speaker 4: you should I shouldn't go beat him up, you know,
Speaker 4: let him alone.
Speaker 3: He's one of our guys.
Speaker 4: Which is an interesting thing that happens because after that
Speaker 4: first incident where bring gear and confronts him in the
Speaker 4: street and they almost get physical Oswell comes back and
Speaker 4: does his big leafleting scene on the street with TV
Speaker 4: cameras and other guys that he hires, and the Cubans
Speaker 4: are absent now this time.
Speaker 3: They don't even show up.
Speaker 4: No placards, no signs, no punching out Oswald. Nobody meets
Speaker 4: them in it. You know, it's like everybody is hands.
Speaker 2: Off Oswald right now, Larry.
Speaker 3: And everybody is those guys.
Speaker 2: Those guys are not far away either. It's not like
Speaker 2: it's a big distance. They could have easily taken a
Speaker 2: stroll over there. Looks like to me. And let's not
Speaker 2: forget about those guys he hired from the temp agency
Speaker 2: that were all dressed kind of like him, with the
Speaker 2: white T shirt, with the white button down shirt and
Speaker 2: all right, and the ties. I always find that comical.
Speaker 2: And that's that imagery was also made even more infamous
Speaker 2: when you know, Donald Trump was jumping onto the theory
Speaker 2: about what was it Ted Cruz's father being there. That
Speaker 2: was one of the images used right during that leafletting incident. Larry,
Speaker 2: Sorry sorry to bring that up, but well it is.
Speaker 4: And we now know that that image was actually constructed
Speaker 4: by Oswald because Oswald gave him their durist instructions and
Speaker 4: when he was asked and interviewed, he told people that
Speaker 4: they were a group of students from a local college
Speaker 4: that we're demonstrating. So Oswald, you know, this is this
Speaker 4: is another part of his creativity. This is a student
Speaker 4: organization demonstrating. And when we're done and the FBI is
Speaker 4: looking for this, organizations like nope, can't find it. And
Speaker 4: it was artificial, but that was very intentional on Oswald's part, right,
Speaker 4: all of a sudden after that, his hands off Oswald
Speaker 4: right until the FBI starts looking for him again.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, that's great with that. I want to
Speaker 2: turn it back over to David if you don't mind,
Speaker 2: because and I find this comical because again he's got
Speaker 2: guys that need a day's work from the temp agency.
Speaker 2: He's got them out there. He's created this whole image,
Speaker 2: he's created the fig chapter. I mean, there's a bit
Speaker 2: of work going into this, you know, and it's being
Speaker 2: presented a certain way and then it's being reported different way.
Speaker 2: You know what, if you don't mind, what did you
Speaker 2: discover about that? And you know what it is? This guy,
Speaker 2: I mean, this is a lot of work for somebody
Speaker 2: who was, you know, supposedly just recruiting students allegedly right
Speaker 2: working out of that building. By the way, that building
Speaker 2: it's that that kind of like it's dramatized in JFK
Speaker 2: with the two entrances and all that. That building has
Speaker 2: been knocked down since, I believe, but it did exist
Speaker 2: and pretty much the way it was dramatized in that film,
Speaker 2: although there's a couple other weird things going on in
Speaker 2: those scenes, but pay no attention to that. There is
Speaker 2: something there to it. Is there anything new that you
Speaker 2: discovered about this nexus, David that you'd like to share
Speaker 2: here just a little bit.
Speaker 6: Well, you know, we're talking about Anestawardriguez. We'll talk about him, Frank,
Speaker 6: Frank Bartez and Augustine greetadd a little bit in the
Speaker 6: connections to Oswald Honestill Rodriguez, who was you know he
Speaker 6: was him and his father were both members of the CRC,
Speaker 6: and so was Kylo Springear. A lot of people don't
Speaker 6: know that he was one of the original members of
Speaker 6: the CRC before he left to join the DR, the
Speaker 6: Student Revolutionary Directorate, and he was close to all these guys,
Speaker 6: I mean, they were friends Arnesta Rodriguez and Kyle Springier
Speaker 6: used to go to John Birch Society meetings together. They
Speaker 6: were both FBI informants, and these guys hung out together.
Speaker 6: It's my point, but I'm trying to get to so
Speaker 6: he was no stranger to these guys. Honesto. Rodriguez has
Speaker 6: an interesting brother. I'm not sure if anybody's how many
Speaker 6: people aware of it, but his brother, Emilio Rodriguez, used
Speaker 6: to work with Honesta at the Modern Language Institute, the
Speaker 6: Burlet's School, and he was in Havana and he got
Speaker 6: recruited by the CIA. He volunteered, he wanted to join,
Speaker 6: and his original case officer recruiter was Henry Hecksher, who
Speaker 6: ended up, you know, being the case officer for them
Speaker 6: World Project. So Emilio and that'sa his brother was hired
Speaker 6: by the CIA, and he worked closely with David Morales
Speaker 6: and Tony Swozza, and you know, this guy was one
Speaker 6: of the main stay behind guys that had agents.
Speaker 5: Working for him. Man, he was as connected as can be.
Speaker 2: In case somebody doesn't know, David, what is M World
Speaker 2: or AM World? Please?
Speaker 5: Just in case somebody it is.
Speaker 6: Sure it was run by Manuel Ardema who was He
Speaker 6: was backed by the CIA. It was supposed to be
Speaker 6: an autonomous operation where they were gonna go off no off,
Speaker 6: out of the United States and work in Latin America
Speaker 6: and Nicaragua, Guatemala, Costa Rica where they set up camps
Speaker 6: and they were going to invade Cuba and the plan
Speaker 6: and you sometimes.
Speaker 2: Are you the listener might have heard that name pronounceable
Speaker 2: for our teammate. Just just for the record, but Artema, right,
Speaker 2: and we're talking about the same guy. Okay, No, I
Speaker 2: just want to make sure people know because I know
Speaker 2: that that's commonly the way it's pronounced, and I'm not
Speaker 2: even certain which way is correct, but just just for
Speaker 2: a point of reference.
Speaker 6: Sorry, go ahead, So you Emilio. Let's long story short.
Speaker 6: He was very connected, very high up at JM Wave
Speaker 6: worked for a counter intel, foreign intel and covert action.
Speaker 6: So he was all across the board trying to recruit
Speaker 6: assets for the CIA. So he was CIA. That was
Speaker 6: no Nesto's brother who knew Oswalt, you know, so it's
Speaker 6: pretty interesting. Frank Bartes was a member of the CRC.
Speaker 6: He was the actual delegate. He replaced a lot of people.
Speaker 6: Remember Sergio Lacachia Smith. You know that's been names been
Speaker 6: around quite a bit with the old Garrison investigator. He
Speaker 6: get booted from the CRC in sixty one and he's
Speaker 6: replaced by Lewis Ravel, who stuck around for a little while,
Speaker 6: and Rebell quit and was replaced by Frank Francisco Bartes.
Speaker 6: So Bartes was a delegate in New Orleans and his
Speaker 6: assistant delegate was Sylvia Odio's uncle, Augustine Guiton. These guys
Speaker 6: were close, That's the point I was getting at. And
Speaker 6: they were all at Oswald's you know, court appearents, even
Speaker 6: Sylvia Odio's uncle. They knew Oswald well. And Frank Bartees
Speaker 6: had a confrontation outside the courtroom with Lee Oswald. A
Speaker 6: month later, the FBI says to Frank Bartes, you know,
Speaker 6: we're trying to track down Lee Oswald.
Speaker 5: Do you know him? Do you know?
Speaker 6: Because I don't know, never met him, never saw him
Speaker 6: before in my life. So that's when we figure Oswald
Speaker 6: was in play. This was September tenth, nineteen sixty three.
Speaker 6: The FBI talked from you know this documentation on he goes, no,
Speaker 6: I don't know Oswald, is you know he's bullshitting there,
Speaker 6: you know, diary context.
Speaker 3: Yeah, go ahead, Yeah, And I think what David has
Speaker 3: just described. Just think about this.
Speaker 4: If ten years ago, not just Dia Garrison, but even
Speaker 4: if ten years ago we had realized that the three
Speaker 4: guys in the courtroom with Oswald were all Sea Ice
Speaker 4: horss FBI informants, and that they all had connections like
Speaker 4: Arnie Stowe and Bartes and Guitar all had connections to
Speaker 4: people in special affairs in the Cuba project at Jahim Wave,
Speaker 4: we would have blown our minds. We did not know that,
Speaker 4: nobody knew that at that point in time. We did
Speaker 4: not know that guitar Sylvia Odio's uncle was connected to
Speaker 4: Antonio Verona. Antonio Verona at that time was the acting
Speaker 4: head of the Cuban Revolutionary Council in fall of sixty three,
Speaker 4: and Verona had been part of the long term CIA
Speaker 4: assassination project targeting Castro that had started out in nineteen
Speaker 4: sixty one and had gone on under with you know,
Speaker 4: David Morales, William Harvey Roselli, all of these people that
Speaker 4: are common to us. You know that we know, we
Speaker 4: did not have no idea that there's this connection through
Speaker 4: Verona to this guy who's in the courtroom with Lee
Speaker 4: Harvey Oswald. These people are talking. They're close enough socially
Speaker 4: so that Verona comes to New Orleans and visits and
Speaker 4: stays with guitar in his home. In November of nineteen
Speaker 4: sixty three, Bartes goes to New or goes to Miami,
Speaker 4: and they're all socially connected. This connection between New Orleans
Speaker 4: and Miami is far deeper and darker in a way
Speaker 4: than we had ever imagined. That this is shocking news,
Speaker 4: and this is one of the things that led us
Speaker 4: to explore. As David just said, you know, once everybody
Speaker 4: starts lying, somebody's decided that there's you know, there's a
Speaker 4: hand being played, and you've got to start you know
Speaker 4: who's playing what hand. Clearly, these Cubans in Miami are
Speaker 4: involved in playing some kind of a hand with.
Speaker 3: Lee Harvey Oswell.
Speaker 4: And and they actually even have access to Oswald. They've
Speaker 4: got someone who can go visit him, who he trusts
Speaker 4: as a Feller traveler. Now they can make their introductions.
Speaker 2: So somebody outside of all this research might ask, you know, look,
Speaker 2: these guys are making the time to show up in court,
Speaker 2: which is not something. You know, people see this all
Speaker 2: the time in this case and they go, oh, well,
Speaker 2: so the guys in court. I mean, it's it's there's
Speaker 2: a purpose for this. What would be the general way
Speaker 2: to describe what this effort is and does it really
Speaker 2: center on Oswald or is it just that he's part
Speaker 2: of a greater plan that we have, you know, some
Speaker 2: insight into now where Oswald is a possible player, but
Speaker 2: he's not at the center of anything. I mean, how
Speaker 2: how would you explain that to somebody? You know, he
Speaker 2: hasn't read the book yet.
Speaker 4: That's where people start to make a mistake, Chuck, because
Speaker 4: you start looking for this special plan. And that's why
Speaker 4: the time whining is so so important, because it's it's evolutionary.
Speaker 4: You know, Oswald is of interest because Oswald's in New
Speaker 4: Orleans and he's doing things that are of interest to
Speaker 4: these people. And they've been they've been playing this anti
Speaker 4: Castro game for years now.
Speaker 3: They are old school.
Speaker 4: The guitar is actually has operational approval with the CIA
Speaker 4: to be a spotter and to look for people to
Speaker 4: recruit into anty castro activities, look in New Orleans, in Cuba.
Speaker 4: He's to spot Cuba these people are involved in this
Speaker 4: anti Castro game.
Speaker 3: So at this point in time, Oswell is just of interest.
Speaker 3: You know, who is he?
Speaker 4: Let's learn about them, Let's find out something. Otherwise they
Speaker 4: would not have shown their hand by going to court.
Speaker 4: They're all trying to find out who Oswell really is,
Speaker 4: what is his game, and can we bring him into
Speaker 4: our game? And I think it It really troubles me
Speaker 4: that people immediately jump to the fact that this must
Speaker 4: be something that's part of something already going on, where
Speaker 4: in fact, it's more likely it's part of something that's developmental.
Speaker 4: And Oswell is going to leave New Orleans, and Oswell
Speaker 4: is going to go, you know, to Mexico City, but
Speaker 4: Oswall likely is going to go to sel the audios
Speaker 4: and to mccowan's and the sequence events.
Speaker 3: I guess what I'm trying to get across.
Speaker 4: And David can say if he agrees or not, is
Speaker 4: we see it as evolutionary, it's not fixed in stone.
Speaker 4: At the time they're in court, they're looking at Oswald,
Speaker 4: Oswell's looking back at them.
Speaker 3: You know, who's playing what game with who?
Speaker 4: What we do know is they all begin within thirty
Speaker 4: days to start lying about what they know about Lee
Speaker 4: Harvey Oswald. We know that Qurraga lied under polygraph with
Speaker 4: Garrison about Oswald and Rifle and Oswald a conspiracy. You know,
Speaker 4: it's this lies that become important, you know, And when
Speaker 4: do they start telling them and they don't tell I
Speaker 4: mean they're they're in court and open court and they're
Speaker 4: in video footage. David's got captures of it. So at
Speaker 4: that point in time, there's nothing to be exposed. But
Speaker 4: within thirty days there's something that they're beginning to hide.
Speaker 2: Right, So David, is this an accurate and fair representation
Speaker 2: of the pattern you see emerging? And what would you
Speaker 2: add to that pattern that you're recognizing now in this data,
Speaker 2: especially with the new documentation being added.
Speaker 5: Yeah, one hundred percent agree.
Speaker 6: So just a little bit of context. Frank Bartes, you know,
Speaker 6: the head of the New Orleans CRC, we'ld have meetings
Speaker 6: at his business office and sometimes at his home with
Speaker 6: Augustine Gree Todd, Nesta Rodriguez, Carlos Bringeier would sometimes show
Speaker 6: up and a couple other guys, and the guy who
Speaker 6: they considered that liaison between the various Cuban groups was
Speaker 6: Carlos Kroga so we figured these guys sent Karoga supposedly
Speaker 6: Bringier to go see how to pretend he's uh that
Speaker 6: Kroga was pro castro and he's interested in the fair
Speaker 6: Play for Cuba Committee. Oswald gives them, you know, an
Speaker 6: application to become a member of the fair Play for
Speaker 6: Cuba Committee, gives them a bunch of leaflets the pass out.
Speaker 6: So they're really playing Oswald at this point. So they
Speaker 6: realized they can talk to Oswald as long as they
Speaker 6: pretend to be pro castro. Oswald, you know, your best buddy,
Speaker 6: you know, he'll keep talking to you.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 6: So that's I think where they realized, if you pretend
Speaker 6: we send some more pro castro guys, the guys pretend
Speaker 6: to be pro castro, we can play Oswald. And we
Speaker 6: go into that a little bit in the book to
Speaker 6: who these guys we believe were that the two guys
Speaker 6: that went to Sylvia Audios, which is huge, they were
Speaker 6: friends of Frank Bartz and that is documented. That's huge,
Speaker 6: I think.
Speaker 2: Speaking of documentation and who's got eyes on what With
Speaker 2: all of these players of interest in motion, one would
Speaker 2: start to wonder who's actually got surveillance on it? And
Speaker 2: are we missing somebody's reports. Are we missing some surveillance
Speaker 2: that should have obviously and logically been on some of
Speaker 2: these circumstances, some of these meetings with some of these characters,
Speaker 2: it should have been followed up on, because there were
Speaker 2: various agencies and non government agencies, let's say, of sorts,
Speaker 2: that should have been interested in keeping an eye on
Speaker 2: all this interaction. Do you think we have stuff missing
Speaker 2: or do you think that we now have a better
Speaker 2: picture because of some of the reports filed in surveillance David,
Speaker 2: or would you like to pass that over to Larry.
Speaker 2: That's up to you.
Speaker 6: Well, I'll let Larry take a first cut at that
Speaker 6: and I'll add by two cents afterwards.
Speaker 4: Okay, Yeah, So two different things going on, and that's
Speaker 4: why in the book we actually did two separate chapters.
Speaker 4: One chapter is how Oslo became of operationditional interest to
Speaker 4: the CIA at JM Wave, and that's a group of
Speaker 4: people that are interested in him are monitoring what he's doing,
Speaker 4: but remotely. They're monitoring, largely through reports they're getting from
Speaker 4: the FBI. And one of the points of the new
Speaker 4: releases was shocking was to find out how much information
Speaker 4: that the FBI was passing on to the CIA in
Speaker 4: Miami that Miami wasn't sharing with anybody.
Speaker 3: Well, for instance, I was sharing.
Speaker 2: It, yeah, sorry, Larry. For instance, on that would be
Speaker 2: the information about Oswald's mail being intercepted right at this
Speaker 2: I think it's at this time that was relevant Or
Speaker 2: do I have that wrong somehow because I have not.
Speaker 2: You know, I only went over it a bit. But
Speaker 2: isn't that part of the equation here?
Speaker 3: They have shared mail intercepts.
Speaker 4: But what's striking at this point in time is the
Speaker 4: most striking thing is that when Oswell shows up in
Speaker 4: Mexico City, in Mexico City wants to know who this.
Speaker 5: Guy is.
Speaker 3: Headquarters.
Speaker 4: The information they provide is that Oswald is still in
Speaker 4: Russia as married to a Russian woman and may come
Speaker 4: back to the United States someday.
Speaker 3: The reason that's provided to Mexico.
Speaker 4: City is that the FBI has started to lie to
Speaker 4: itself to the extent that they've pulled all the contemporary
Speaker 4: information into a special file. Now Miami station knows all
Speaker 4: of this because the FBI is telling them, and this
Speaker 4: is in new documents. They're telling them in detail. They're
Speaker 4: even passing on host these information from Dallas to Miami,
Speaker 4: but miam is not telling anybody about that, certainly not
Speaker 4: Mexico City. So that's probably the biggest example of who's
Speaker 4: not sharing information. But then that's in the CIA, and
Speaker 4: that's in Miami. In New Orleans, it's these Cubans who
Speaker 4: aren't sharing information locally with the FBI. They're flatlined to them,
Speaker 4: and they're all CIA sources, and ostensibly they're not sharing
Speaker 4: anything with the CIA. If you want to talk about
Speaker 4: missing paper trails, it's like, did mister Rodriguez and New
Speaker 4: Orleans not talk to his brother and Emilio about this
Speaker 4: new you know America next marine CIA supporter of Castro.
Speaker 4: Did they not have this dialogue when they talk. We
Speaker 4: don't have any document that says they did.
Speaker 3: Did Guitar put a report.
Speaker 4: To his domestic ops contact and he did have a
Speaker 4: domestic ops contact about Oswald?
Speaker 3: We don't have that report.
Speaker 4: The guys, it's like they're two different groups that are
Speaker 4: withholding information, specialist affair staff in Miami and the old
Speaker 4: school CRC guys in New Orleans. The tipping point, the
Speaker 4: cross point among all of them, though may well be
Speaker 4: Antonio Verona, who knows both sets of players, and especially
Speaker 4: in regard to guitar and Sylvia odio and what starts
Speaker 4: to happen later. David can expand, but I think that's
Speaker 4: the point, Chuck. There are two groups that begin to
Speaker 4: withhold information. That's why there are two chapters in the book,
Speaker 4: because we felt we had to treat them separately as
Speaker 4: two different sets of people with separate operational interest in Oswald.
Speaker 2: Right now, look, we're going to quickly approach the last
Speaker 2: ten minutes of our discussion here, so I want to
Speaker 2: give you and David both a chance to round out.
Speaker 2: We've gone in depth on a few things here, but
Speaker 2: to sort of round out the rest of the teaser,
Speaker 2: if you will. For the update on the book, I
Speaker 2: really want people to pick it up. And yes, indeed
Speaker 2: it is the paperback version, and I am lucky enough
Speaker 2: to have one in my hands. I'm extremely happy with that,
Speaker 2: and I know if you guys go and get this
Speaker 2: one you will be too. Even if you have the
Speaker 2: original one, you'll be very happy with this one. Also.
Speaker 2: For some reason, I don't know what they did with
Speaker 2: the quality of the pages, but I'm finding this one
Speaker 2: easier to read than the hardcover The hardcover was not bad,
Speaker 2: but or the previous version, I can't even remember if
Speaker 2: it's got a hardcover on it, but it wasn't bad.
Speaker 2: But this one's actually a little easier to read, too,
Speaker 2: so there's a little inside extra on it, David. So overall,
Speaker 2: if we were to sort of summarize here about especially
Speaker 2: the addition, but the whole thing is great, and if
Speaker 2: you haven't picked it up, definitely get the one with
Speaker 2: the update for sure. I don't know what else was changed, honestly,
Speaker 2: because I really wanted to see what was added myself.
Speaker 2: But if you could, you know, give us a sort
Speaker 2: of summation on what's really important or the most important
Speaker 2: things that people might be able to learn or to
Speaker 2: glean from this or to begin to understand. I mean,
Speaker 2: as always this subject matter and the subject of Lee
Speaker 2: Harvey Oswald also, which I find to be separate from
Speaker 2: the assassination to some decree, because I don't for a
Speaker 2: second think this is your culprit, but is a fascinating
Speaker 2: character and reveals a lot of other things about the
Speaker 2: national security state, and it's a status quo at the time,
Speaker 2: and some of its weird and strange off road adventures
Speaker 2: let's call them from the nineteen sixties. You can learn
Speaker 2: a lot from the study of Oswald in the way
Speaker 2: things were going on around him, to him and virtually
Speaker 2: or actually not virtually, but what do I mean to say,
Speaker 2: ultimately what ended up happening to him in the end,
Speaker 2: and the way it was handled and everything else. Plus
Speaker 2: the media ever after gives you a lot of insight
Speaker 2: into the behavior of the national security state, which by
Speaker 2: the way, is Larry Hancock's specialty. But anyways, David, on
Speaker 2: this subject, though, what would be the great teaser here,
Speaker 2: something new that people would pick up on from the
Speaker 2: addition that you'd like to point them to.
Speaker 5: So many things.
Speaker 6: I mean, John Newman described it best. You got an
Speaker 6: out of focus puzzle with pieces missing. I think we
Speaker 6: put a few of these pieces in maybe a little
Speaker 6: bit more in focus, but there's still a lot missing
Speaker 6: that we don't know and we're still trying to figure out,
Speaker 6: and we're going to continue, you know, to keep plugging
Speaker 6: away at this. What I got too from it is
Speaker 6: a CIA wasn't talking to the CIA, and a lot
Speaker 6: of things too, And you know that's what we look
Speaker 6: at here, like you had the special affair of staff,
Speaker 6: which was the Cuba project. These guys focus on Cuba.
Speaker 6: They weren't talking to Mexico City. You know, as far
Speaker 6: as what was going on with the Oswald, Mexico Cities
Speaker 6: was in the dark. Who is this guy? But Special
Speaker 6: Affairs staff they knew who he was. They again the
Speaker 6: reports they get signing off on them. You know, this
Speaker 6: is a good quote here that we use in the
Speaker 6: book too. And John Newman talked to Jane Roman, who
Speaker 6: was the CIA counter intelligence liaison and she was looking
Speaker 6: at Oswald's file. She was, uh, Newman, as is this
Speaker 6: indicative of some sort of operational interest in Oswald's file?
Speaker 6: In Rome says yes, to me, it's indicative of keen
Speaker 6: interest in Oswald held very closely on the need to
Speaker 6: know basis by sas Special Affairs staff staff. They thought
Speaker 6: that somehow they can make some use of Oswald. Boom,
Speaker 6: there it is, you know, and they weren't talking to
Speaker 6: Mexico City.
Speaker 5: What they're trying to do with Oswald?
Speaker 6: The Special Affairs Cuban staff, and we go into that
Speaker 6: quite a bit of what we think they were trying
Speaker 6: to do. You know, what would the operational interest in
Speaker 6: Oswald was in one of the chapters we go in.
Speaker 2: Also, David, would it be fair or unfair to say
Speaker 2: that in some cases as you could almost look at
Speaker 2: jmwave as an island onto itself somewhat separational, separated, excuse me,
Speaker 2: from the operational aspects of the interconnectivity of the agency.
Speaker 2: At the time, Jmwave was doing stuff that they weren't
Speaker 2: necessarily ready to share with the entire rest of the
Speaker 2: body of the CIA.
Speaker 5: Sometimes.
Speaker 2: And is this something that you saw coming up when
Speaker 2: it comes to the character of Lee Harvey Oswald. Obviously
Speaker 2: there were other things going on to jmwave, But what
Speaker 2: about the island onto itself concept?
Speaker 5: What do you think about?
Speaker 6: Oh, yeah, these guys were actually there was groups and
Speaker 6: clicks within jmwave too that just talked with each other.
Speaker 6: I mean William Harvey when he used to go when
Speaker 6: tasks w he'd go to Jmwave. He only wanted to
Speaker 6: talk to the paramilitary guys, David Morales in particular. So
Speaker 6: that shows you do you want to talk to your
Speaker 6: foreign intelligence guys? And this is you know from his
Speaker 6: book is bio Harvey's bio. So I mean, yeah, JAM
Speaker 6: wave had its own small little click there of the
Speaker 6: paramilitary guys, Rip Robinson, Gratson Lynch, Dave Morales who was
Speaker 6: their boss.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I found that people have actually taken
Speaker 2: special interest in Rip Roberts lately, you know, as of late,
Speaker 2: I should say not lately, but you know, the finding
Speaker 2: him to be a much more interesting character than they
Speaker 2: might have thought of in the past. I think partially
Speaker 2: due to your guys work, and maybe a couple of
Speaker 2: other people have actually kicked over stone or two regarding
Speaker 2: that guy, and definitely worthy of further exploration. Larry, if
Speaker 2: you don't mind a similar question to you about you know,
Speaker 2: could you summarize what is really something that could be
Speaker 2: gleaned from this Maybe it's slightly different answer from what
Speaker 2: you know David gave, maybe, or if you just want
Speaker 2: to concur that's fine. But since we're, you know, rounding
Speaker 2: out to about the end of our hour here, I
Speaker 2: wanted to give you a chance to tell, well, what
Speaker 2: what is new and what is of interest here in
Speaker 2: the new edition. Although I tell you again the entire book,
Speaker 2: not you, Larry, but you listening, that the entire book
Speaker 2: is worthy of a reference material in and of itself
Speaker 2: on your shelf. And I don't say that about too
Speaker 2: many JFK books at all, although I got to say,
Speaker 2: I want to read, well, I want to read doctor
Speaker 2: Douglas's book, The New One, and I haven't gotten a
Speaker 2: copy of that yet and haven't been able to get
Speaker 2: in touch with James Douglas. But you know there's another
Speaker 2: guy who puts things in context. But Larry another day,
Speaker 2: maybe we'll talk about that, and maybe I'll talk about
Speaker 2: that with him if I get lucky. What would you say, though,
Speaker 2: is a good way to summarize the the interest? Like,
Speaker 2: you know, you wouldn't do this if it didn't you know,
Speaker 2: seem to need to be done. So what's the what's
Speaker 2: the deal? What is the teaser if you will? To
Speaker 2: the reader out there?
Speaker 4: Yeah, and a teaser, I think, just to rep up
Speaker 4: what David said. Our view is that the CIA Special
Speaker 4: Affairs staff within their Propaganda section saw Oswell as an
Speaker 4: opportunity to launch a new black propaganda project in support
Speaker 4: of Mworld. This would be something that they launched overseas.
Speaker 4: David Phillips became involved in that, Joan Edies became involved
Speaker 4: in that, and to telegraph a little bit the outlet
Speaker 4: that they were likely going to use to do this
Speaker 4: because since its black project, it has to be totally disassociated.
Speaker 4: Was probably going to be the INCA group in New Orleans,
Speaker 4: which gets to be very fascinating.
Speaker 3: He takes you back to New.
Speaker 4: Orleans because we're going to show you that they actually
Speaker 4: had that kind of project in development and we're about
Speaker 4: to launch it by the end of the year. As
Speaker 4: it ended up, it got launched a little earlier because
Speaker 4: of November twenty second. But that's one area. That's one
Speaker 4: operational use. The other operational use is that we think
Speaker 4: that the connections that we discussed in the last few
Speaker 4: minutes in New Orleans established Oswell of operational interest to
Speaker 4: the conspiracy, and that over the next ninety days, not
Speaker 4: all at once, but over the next ninety.
Speaker 3: Days, they figured out a way.
Speaker 4: To use Oswell for one thing and another thing and
Speaker 4: a MultiMate as a patsy in Dallas. So Oswell became
Speaker 4: of operational interest to both the CIA for actually a sanctioned,
Speaker 4: legitimate operation which they had to cover up like after
Speaker 4: the assassination, because who wants to admit that, Oh, you
Speaker 4: mean the guy we were about to use.
Speaker 3: No, no, we don't know him.
Speaker 4: And of operational use by the people that were actually
Speaker 4: involved in the assassination deciding that they had control to
Speaker 4: a certain extent over this guy and they knew enough
Speaker 4: about him to make them a patsy, which they had
Speaker 4: not planned in the beginning. But some things, you know,
Speaker 4: just come together right.
Speaker 2: And plausible deniability wrapped in deniability. Maybe again wrapped in
Speaker 2: plausible deniability. But you know, a lot to explore here.
Speaker 2: Also another just quick note for media studies and the
Speaker 2: dynamics of the interactions of the government, the different operations
Speaker 2: going on and all that. Let us not forget that
Speaker 2: Latin Listening Post was partially at least partially funded by
Speaker 2: INCA as well, and they even took credit on the
Speaker 2: release of the record of Lee Harvey Oswald. If you
Speaker 2: take a look at it, Lee Harvey Oswald speaks the
Speaker 2: Latin Listening Post interview right that they put out on
Speaker 2: a piece of vital for a few kiddies out there.
Speaker 2: They used to have these record things that were on
Speaker 2: vinyl and it said, yeah, Inca's listed on there as
Speaker 2: like you know, like where even have a record company practically,
Speaker 2: So just saying it's an interesting study when it comes
Speaker 2: to the dynamics of the American media and it's interactivity
Speaker 2: with intelligence agencies, et cetera, et cetera as well, not
Speaker 2: the focus in Larry's book, But just a side note
Speaker 2: from me who does presentations on that anyway, I want
Speaker 2: to thank David Boilin and Larry Hancock w we are
Speaker 2: the co authors of the Oswald Puzzle, and hopefully this
Speaker 2: gives you guys out there enough to motivate you to
Speaker 2: go get the newly updated version of the Oswald Puzzle. Again,
Speaker 2: I highly recommend it. I will give you guys a
Speaker 2: link in the show notes to go get it. I
Speaker 2: don't care if you get the electronic one, but I
Speaker 2: highly recommend the paperback. And as Larry said, they will
Speaker 2: be updating the kindle soon, so wait and the updated
Speaker 2: kindle will be available shortly. But in the meantime, pre
Speaker 2: orders and whatnot. Do your thing. And again it's always.
Speaker 7: Been h.
Speaker 8: Oh hilly dot com.
Speaker 2: Wall Street, Greendow dot dot com, Wall Street, Windows.
Speaker 9: Dot com dot com.
Speaker 2: Michael Swanson, the brilliant author of the War State, gives
Speaker 2: you the benefit of his knowledge Wallstreamno, dott go there, now,
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Speaker 8: Now do you like history? Real history that you were
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Speaker 8: Nuclear Bombs and Nation Building in Southeast Asia nineteen forty
Speaker 8: five through nineteen sixty one. Get your copy today at
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Speaker 1: Relations CONSTI impact, so show fact revelation, the fasba.
Speaker 5: Ne a devastation.
Speaker 1: Relation through conversational effect.
Speaker 5: You are the effects to conversation.
Speaker 10: All raised demonstrator ll sell the fact revelation conversation through
Speaker 10: a teasion, through conversation, Oh shall lea.
Speaker 7: Effect, revelation of cont fation gone had forgotten, Sally a
Speaker 7: fact beyond the place of that, And fears are the
Speaker 7: shade and the years find it shall find me on
Speaker 7: a braid, And there is not a brave.
Speaker 5: Decate a charge with the school.
Speaker 7: I am the master of my fate.
Speaker 5: I am the chant of my soul. Continued catching it.
Speaker 9: Religion in denial. Secret Wars with air strikes and tanks
Speaker 9: by Larry Hancock. Secret Wars became a staple of US
Speaker 9: covert operations and are still happening today. Larry Hancock's book
Speaker 9: In Denial rips the cover off many of them, using
Speaker 9: new files. It exposes things about the Bay of Pigs
Speaker 9: that no one has ever written about before. It shows
Speaker 9: why it really failed and why the United States did
Speaker 9: not learn from it. It also shows why other countries
Speaker 9: today are doing secret operations with more success. This is
Speaker 9: the book that puts what some want to deny into
Speaker 9: the light. In Denial secret wars with air strikes and
Speaker 9: tanks Larry Hancock. For more information to larryhiphen Handcock dot com.
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Speaker 5: Shelley dot com. Radio.
Speaker 11: The War State by Michael Swanson explains the great national
Speaker 11: transformation that took place and put the Kennedy presidency in
Speaker 11: the context of the times and reveals never before published
Speaker 11: information about the Cuban missile crisis. President Kennedy would not
Speaker 11: have been assassinated if he had been president two hundred
Speaker 11: years ago. His assassination took place in the context of
Speaker 11: the Cold War and the rise of the national security state.
Speaker 11: Before World War II, the United States was a continental Republic.
Speaker 11: In the decade that followed it became an imperial superpower.
Speaker 11: Generals such as Curtis LeMay not only wanted to invade Cuba,
Speaker 11: but knew that there were short range missiles on the
Speaker 11: island armed with nuclear warheads that they could not destroy
Speaker 11: because they were on mobile launchers. Their invasion could have
Speaker 11: led to a Third World War, and they wanted to
Speaker 11: go to war anyway. The War State by Michael Swanson
Speaker 11: reveals why and we'll show you what President Kennedy was
Speaker 11: up against. For more information the War State dot com.
Speaker 12: The Pleasure leads just to the front of Mecamania and
Speaker 12: for the mercier that made in China South Phil the
Speaker 12: estate for nothing, Madim and we stand broken nation and
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Speaker 12: being justice denied for.
Speaker 3: All show Chili dot com.
Speaker 7: It's got some some that's not.
Speaker 2: I don't one time around.
Speaker 7: So he come, were wearing.
Speaker 12: Long no
Speaker 7: No no, you want from a small as a Fostres