Speaker 1: What is up? Fellasiko's om Damn Valley coming at you
With another twenty twenty five twenty twenty six NBA season
look ahead. We are onto the Dallas Mavericks, which means
it's time to speak with Kirk Henderson of Pod Maverick
and of MAVs Moneyball. You can find the link to
all the places you could subscribe to Pod Maverick in
the YouTube and podcast description. Follow Kirk on the social
machine at Kirk Serious face spelled exactly as it sounds,
and it's also on screen if you're watching for your convenience. Kirk,
how the heck are you doing good?
Speaker 2: I'm uh. It's been a long off season and I
think I'm actually ready for the basketball to begin.
Speaker 1: I for me this offseason as it feels like a
blur for some reason, we didn't have any I know,
there's euro basketball, like the Olympics last year made it
feel like it was longer for some reason, even though
they shouldn't have. But just bizarre stuff. Speaking of bizarre stuff, though,
I promise I'm not asking you to re litigate the
Lukadancis trade. I just what do you make of this
team after going from that? You know, trading him because
what they say to increase their championship equity to winding
up with this generational, potentially generational nineteen year old, and
yet you're still trying to win. Just what do you
make of their entire direction right now?
Speaker 2: It's difficult because during my time as a Mavericks fan,
they've always had and I mean even during some of
the weirder mid mid to twenty teams when they were
kind of like a seventh to eighth seed, they've always
had pretty good ball handlers. Like there was a year
when even Raymond Felton was like the team point guard,
and he's a passable point guard. And we're going to
talk about this more as we go on, but like,
this team is built in such a way that they
don't value wall handling, and it's a truly kind of
a unique experiment, and I think that, like my big
picture takeaway from this team is that they're gonna be
unlike anybody else in the NBA, which of itself can
be interesting. I'm not sure it's interesting for eighty two games,
And because of the injury to Kyrie Irving, it really
puts a hard ceiling on what this team could possibly
be the flip side of that is the talent is
as such to whereas I actually think there's a pretty
high floor.
Speaker 1: A lot of dudes, a lot of.
Speaker 2: Like if you don't know anything about basketball, but you
do follow socials, like there's just names, you know, and
that's of value because it usually means the players are
pretty good. So it's it's sort of tough to make
what they're trying to build. I mean, Nico Harrison, I
think is I mean, this is the thing he's going
to be known for for the rest of his life,
and he's ultimately wrong. I think he does make a
pretty decent point in terms of I think he's very
concerned about building a team around a Supermax player not
constructed a certain way like the Oklahoma City Thunder will
likely be a kind of exception versus a rule, because
you have to nail every point, and if the hardcap
is going to exist, if the second Apron is going
to exist, you just can't. Committing eighty million dollars to
a guy is a daunting thing, and I actually do
get that, as much as I don't agree with with
the Lugudanci trade.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's I mean, that's a whole different discussion. But
I think the bar for those contracts we're already kind
of seeing it increase. Lukadancic that trade was an anomaly,
but that's you know, Trey Young's extension is just a
good harbinger. What he gets not eligible for the supermax,
but he gets less than the max. I think that
will show we're kind of just waiting for that first
big name to like not get the money you would
think that they get, because that would hint at a
different type of team building. But what I wanted to
ask you before diving into this team specifically this season,
I think what could be construed is fascinating and also
kind of cool. Is that, well, you're trying to win. Now,
you have talent, help you win, now end this nineteen
year old generational prospect, but you're also really expensive, don't
have a ton of assets. Is there a risk in
kind of going for it before Cooper flag is in
his prime? I think by the time it get go ahead, Sorry.
Speaker 2: It's it's the same thing they did with Luca and
only they did even earlier. I mean midway through the
Luca Tray or Lucas Rooki years when they traded for Porzingis,
which you know, I think history doesn't look back on
that trade very well. But the first year and a
half of it after Porzingis came back from ACL is
actually really good. The Mavericks were really good in that
twenty twenty bubble season twenty nineteen twenty twenty season then
ended in the bubble. The challenge that that they're they're
sort of staring down is if you if you say
we have a four year window, then then that and
they've not adjusted that at all, which drives me crazy
as a fan because it just puts a limiting factor
on things. Then it's sort of reasonable to assume that
they're going to do whatever they can to maximize that window. Well,
if you do that, then by the time you know
Cooper Flag's rookie contract is up, you're staring at a
twenty was twenty I guess basically the twenty nine to
thirty season is what it would be something like that.
Maybe my math wrong, doesn't really matter, and at that
point you'd be staring at a team that might not
have very many draft assets and might not have many
young players, and that's just sort of a bleak place
to be because building teams in the NBA, you can
turn things around with one pick, but that one pick
also has to fall into an infrastructure that's that's pretty good.
I'm a little worried about that. I also think that
if this you mentioned something earlier, which I don't think
a lot of people understand. The Mavericks are a million
dollars underneath the second apron, a million dollars next year,
they're nineteen million over it before anything even haves. So
it's like they have to do stuff just because they
have a very expensive team with again pretty good players.
But the question is do those players fit? And so
I strongly advocated from the moment Kyrie Irving went down
that they needed to trade Anthony Davis because you know,
Anthony Davis is not a one A option. He's a
top fifteen, top twenty player in the NBA, whatever you
want to call him. But there's just there's concerns there.
And if this team starts out and the schedule is
such to where they're actually going to start out like
thirteen and seven, and everybody's gonna think they're great, and
then what's gonna happen is like the regular season is
going to kick in and then following Christmas, they're gonna
get bushwhacked and then it's gonna be very what happened
to the Mavericks? Oh no, Well what happened to the
Mavericks is the season is eighty two games long. That's
what's gonna happen to the Mavericks. So it's it's an
odd place to be because it's flag is so enticing,
and I think putting a ceiling on him is insane
because a younger player's developmental years, like their best developmental
years I think, are like from roughly like sixteen to
twenty three, and he's not turning nineteen for three more months,
so it's nuts.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what have you made of Well? I guess let's
start with the comments from Jason Kidd that they want
to put the ball in his hands a bunch, and
it's obviously easier to do that without Kyrie there to start.
Do you view him as someone for what you based
off what you see when he was in college but
you saw on summerly do you think that that's something
that he can do or does the roster around him
need to change a little bit before you have confidence
that he could develop that type of offensive game.
Speaker 2: So I think he can do it. But I also
think the Mavericks are going to play three yards in
a cloud of dust basketball. They don't have shooting. It
is bleak. You have Klay Thompson, a generational shooter. You
have Danngela Russell, a good shooter, but probably a good
shooter in a secondary role, and he's going to be
asked to be the primary ball handler. Uh So Flag
is going to be driving a lot into traffic. I'm
excited for it. I actually think that's the most interesting
thing Jason Kidd has said, because while I'm very frustrated
with people who were sick of Luca ball only for
the concept to become let's give the ball to Cooper Flag, Like,
why not just stick with Luca Bahl. There's a little
obtuse of me, but it's also.
Speaker 1: Just new is always better, Kirk that the truth.
Speaker 2: But Flag is really shockingly adaptable. I was watching some
videos early in the process of him as a JA.
Kyle Manner the ringer pointed this out to me that
when he was like fifteen, his shot mechanics were busted,
and then he goes to Duke and sort of has
like fifty percent from the field forty percent from three
and that happened in three years of working with high
school stuff with no dedicated you know you're you're working around.
I mean, I know these high school kids at that
level are basically professionals, but it's a different situation. So
it's what can he do when this is his only
and sole focus, And that's really exciting to consider. I
just think that if that's what you're relying on to
be the Mavericks engine, that comes with a ceiling and
it's not the champ like a championship caliber team. As
Nico Harrison has repeated over and over again.
Speaker 1: I came away when people were it seems like we
did this. We not you and I, but people did
this with Wemby after he had that bad game in
Summer League. When I came, I came away from Cooper
Flag's bad game in Summer League actually thinking like, oh,
there's more offensive tools, like dead stop offensive tools here
than I thought there was going to be My main
concern You've already mentioned it with the spacing, though, is
will they make it? This is I'm not even trolling
the Anthony Davis doesn't want to play five thing, but
Cooper Flag is going to be a lot of de
facto three or is he gonna slide up to the two?
Will they make it a priority to at least get
to lineups where it's Cooper Flag plus one big mm hmm.
Speaker 2: And that's really that's why I sort of started off
talking about that there's just not gonna be anybody else
playing basketball like them where we're we're coming in. We're
coming from this era where we've had one big basketball
a lot of the time, to where we're gonna have
one guard basketball with.
Speaker 1: The Rockets were ahead of the curve. They saw it coming.
Speaker 2: It's gonna be very, very funky. And his vision is
vastly underrated. A stat I keep going back to, even
though it's probably meaningless. In summer league he played sixty minutes.
He had three turnovers, which in summer league is like
Hall of Fame shit. Yeah, But the and and the
Spurs threw a guy I can't remember the guy's name.
They drafted him in.
Speaker 1: The first first Carter Bryant.
Speaker 2: Wow, what a good defender. And he had a couple
of turnovers against Carter Bryant, then just didn't have any
the rest of the time. And that if you have
the ball a lot. That's impressive to me. Not really
answering your question here, but it's it's I just have
a hard time putting a ceiling on him because of
just how quickly younger players can figure things out. But
I wonder what that means to the to the rest
of the guys, because if I'm guarding the Mavericks, I'm
just camping four guys in the paint and saying beat
us from three. Well, we'll talk to you later, you know.
That's just I think that's what's gonna happen at.
Speaker 1: The other end of the floor our defense. It does
seem like they're set up more right now based off
what it feels like their lineup construction is going to
be that he's going to defend on the ball a lot,
and I think that he can do that. And you
can also correct me if I'm wrong that they're not
gonna do that. But if he's playing next to two
bigs a lot, or if he's kind of a de
facto wing for them, a lot of what he does
best is like the defense of disruption stuff away from
the ball, or what you would think is like in
that four man type role. Does that concern you at
all or again or we just they will get to
lineups that allow him to do that.
Speaker 2: I think that's what what Nico is sort of happy about,
because if you put let's just just think lineup talk
real quick, here you have rough Dangel Russell at the
point a variation like there's six guys. I'm gonna mention
here for a five guy lineup. I think Klay Thompson
will be talked about, but I think Clay might be
the one that has come off the bench. PJ Washington,
Cooper Flag, Anthony Davis, Derek Lively or Daniel Gafford. I
really think they're gonna play four big guys. They've talked
about it too much to be this full of it,
and they're just gonna say, let's see what happens. That's
why I mentioned leading off the show with they they
don't seem to value ball handling or they think they
can make. You know, it's like in football they talk
about like manufacturing touches for guys. I think they believe
the Mavericks believe they're going to manufacture ball handling. Are
they gonna play it like just the Detroit Pistons two
thousand and three era pace, like what is gonna happen?
Like there's I'm really really intrigued, and I'm also a
little bit worried because I'm just not good about talking
this about this kind of basketball. But that's just sort
of what where I see things going. It's it's very
unique in modern basketball.
Speaker 1: What all the stuff that's out there with Kyrie Irving?
What do you think is like a realistic to there
was the whole alway is he going to come back early? Thing?
Like if you're following the MAVs, is it does it
like behoove them to just bring him along slowly at
this point and kind of let the season play out
where it is, or do you expect him to be
back by a certain point.
Speaker 2: Well, Kyrie's never come back from anything early, and he's
had a lot of injuries. One of the things you
see about him in the offseason that's very interesting and
fun about him to cover. Frustrating if you're a basketball
die hard, but if you're just interested in him as
a human. He likes a lot of things other than basketball,
and I think he loves basketball, but I think when
he's away from basketball, it's out of his mind. That's
not to say He's not rehabing hard or anything like that,
but an acl Taiar at thirty two is not something
I think you can rush. Let's Nico has been putting
out into the universe that he thinks Kyrie is ahead
of schedule. Well, Kyrie didn't get the surgery till late March,
and eight months after late March is essentially December. That's
the earliest timetable of anybody like we've ever seen. Like
you're Adrian Peterson's like you're super athletes in their prime.
Kyrie's thirty two, he's small. I think All Star Break
is a fair guess if you think he's coming back
this year. But even he said don't count on it.
He has said this, so I want to take him
at his at his word, and my expectations are centered
around I would really rather be delighted and surprised by
Kyrie's return than desperately seeking it out and hoping that
he's the bump, because even when he does come back,
he's not gonna be the Kyrie we know because getting
used to trusting the leg in NBA level situations. That's
gonna take the rest of the year. It just is.
I don't expect him to. I really do expect him
to come back healthy, but not really until the twenty
twenty six twenty seven season.
Speaker 1: There's also the element of having not played within this
roster construction before. He's really good at He could play
off of anybody, but like not being able to go
through a training camp with whatever this ecosystem plans to
be without him is a big deal.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 1: What did you think of the contract that they ended up,
but also just their their off season at large, extending Gafford,
PJ Washington, using D'Angelo Russell's that ball handling stop gap.
How do you feel about the way they navigated the
off season.
Speaker 2: I mean, they're in a difficult position. They built a
team for Luca and then traded Luca, and that's that's
kind of the start in the finish. Had they even
kept Luca, they'd be still staring at this sort of
off season where when you're loaded for bear, when you
believe you have a good team, you have to keep
spending because you can't let guys go for nothing, or
you have to resign them and trade them and get
something back. That's really what the Gafford deal felt like
to me was kicking the can down the road with
what to do with him. I don't know the final
terms of his deal, but it made it sound like
he signed for X but then when they weren't able
to get a trade together for him, then that money
might have increased just so they could, you know, make
him whole, so to speak. You know, you don't want
to go into a season like this with both him
and PJ. Washington potentially hitting the open market, because if
they're not getting their minutes, they become malcontents and who
could mind them? So I think given the situation that
they had, they navigated it as well as possible, but
they put themselves in a very difficult spot just with
an expensive team. Uh, if they don't perform, this is
not going to hold. But as of things right now,
they roughly owe a repeater tax penalty in the thirty
million dollar range for this year and then next year
the twenty twenty six to twenty seven season. Looking at
it right now, that shoots up to ninety million dollars.
The Agolsen family is one of the richest families on Earth,
but I also don't think they bought this asset to
continually sink money into it and at least at this
rate if you're not getting something in return. So the
Mavericks are going to have to be pretty successful. So
I'm thinking like second round or higher in order to
really justify some of what they've thrown together for this team.
So it puts everybody in a difficult spot. And this
is where the hard cap and being an NBA accountant
comes into to play. Where it's it just sort of
stinks that we have to have these discussions because if
you're drafting good teams and you want to keep them together,
you shouldn't be punitively, you know, ripped for trying to
build an organic team. Now the Mavericks have at least
traded guys in, but you know, compared to where the
roster was when they made the Western Conference Finals in
twenty twenty two, it's a much much much better roster
than that team ever was. It's it's just wild to
look back and think about where they've where they've been
versus where they are.
Speaker 1: And I keep you mentioned, Daniel Gafford, I keep going
back to the big men of it all, and you
even mentioned before that you think they're going to try
playing four bigs. But look at him specifically, as you
have Derek Lively, there just will be minutes where Anthony
Davis is the five like it will happen. Is there
a chance that like Gafford kind of falls by the wayside,
or if they're looking to cut that tax bill, is
that someone that they wind up shopping aggressively this year?
Like I'm just curiously how big his role is within
the context of the of the and look, injuries could
take care of a lot of it. We're talking about
Lively at ad who are guys that seem like they're
always dealing with something. But if this team is healthy,
even if they want to play dual Biggs, just because
you have Nauji Marshall, PJ. Washington, I find myself thinking
a lot about what Daniel Gafford's value and role to
this team is gonna be.
Speaker 2: That's right, because defensively, Daniel Gafford is a really good
shop blocker, but anything outside of five feet he is
not good. And that's where the hope of like you
mentioned Cooper Flag and his sort of off ball potentiality
on defense, that's where like Flag and Washington clean up
a lot for Gafford. It's like a it's almost like
a reverse of having way back in the day Tyson
Chandler protecting everything at the rim. You somehow have like
these secondary kind of wing players as your as your
final defense. Like that's what's what's helping gafferd because Gaffige
is that is actually kind of a spectacular offensive player.
I think very underrated. He dunks a whole lot, He
has a nice passing touch and that sort of thing.
But he does strike me as the odd man out.
But that's where the injury element comes into play. Derek
Lively has played less than one hundred NBA games regular
season through two years because of injuries and then like
personal issues that he's had, and like that, you just
as much as I like Lively, he's got to show it,
you've got to stay healthy. It just this, You've got
to play sixty five games or more in order to
to really be impactful on a team. And so I
think this is a little bit of a hedge there.
I don't I don't necessarily think the team would ever
move Lively, but Lively is like value was sky high
after the finals, and now he strikes me as a
guy who is one of many talent biggs. But he's
got to he's he needs to be healthy in order
to show some some growth because last year is basically
a wasted year for him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I'm curious. What I'm curious is with about
that is I view him as just looking back to
his rookie year, I feel like that's someone who can
be a transformative defender offensively, Like you can see the
outlines of what would be a more versatile I don't
need to hear about Derek Lively shooting threes, I don't care,
but as someone who could be like a more like
there's real usage there on the offensive end. But I'm
curious is like, what does he look like? You mentioned
this team just diminished ball handling, and I think as
much as Ad is limited, just given the importance or
the swing factor that Derek Lively is, like, the lack
of ball handling on this team feels like it could
hurt him more than anybody else. And so I'm curious, like,
what are you kind of watching for with him in
year three on offense? Like what needs to happen for
him to not just survive the way the Mas are
set up, but like kind of be optimized within it.
Speaker 2: Tim Kato on the d LS podcasts earlier in the summer,
made the joke that it's gonna be the most dribble
handoff offense in the NBA. I just repeated dribble handoffs
over and over, and I'm gonna be fascinated to see
what they do with Lively because we saw it in
the second half of Lively's rookie year. It sort of
diminished in the playoffs because obviously your stakes change. But
Lively is a really good basketball player. He is not
a single skilled guy. Part of why he shot up
the draft boards in the weeks and months before the
twenty twenty four twenty three NBA Draft was because he
showed a lot of offensive potential in workouts and stuff
that he never really got a chance to show it to.
He's only shot two threes ever in the in the NBA, but.
Speaker 1: How many and workout videos.
Speaker 2: I know, right, I still don't think he's actually gonna
shoot many, but they're gonna have to let something happen.
I mean, he's a really good decision maker. I really
loved him out of the short role a lot of
the times when he was playing with Luca. But now
you're just not doing stuff like that, are you doing
big to big stuff is Anton? Are you doing things
with Anthony Davis and Cooper Flagg? You know? Flag? Really,
how do you see the guy who went to the
Sun's name Melawak? Is that right?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, damn Maliwatch yeah.
Speaker 2: Him and Flag had some very nice big to big
chemistry at Duke And I'm curious if that kind of
and it just strikes me as kind of a given
because Flag's a smart player. Lively, he's a smart Player's
played with Luca. There's got to be some optionality there
where you're getting Lively at going at the basket. You know,
we're not talking about dribbling as a seven foot one guy.
Maybe a little maybe the occasional thing, but putting him
in actions where you can see what he has, you
just have to find out and if he gives you,
and if it's something that you're not expecting, like let's
it's not like he's necessarily gonna have a post game.
This isn't nineteen ninety two. But if he gives you
anything offensively beyond offensive rebounds, put back dunks and roles,
you're excited. I think he's the kind of guy if
given the opportunity could average, you know, two and a
half assists a game, which, okay, we'll thinking that it's
the He's like, like that would be They're gonna need
things to come from unorthodox places this season.
Speaker 1: I love the short role stuff with him. I just
it leads me to a point where DeAngelo Russell and
Klay Thompson feel way too important to this team then,
because if if you want to run something with Cooper
Flag and Derek Lively, you have to have eight And
assuming a D's on the court, he's not. He's not
spacing like he's or if he is, like defenses don't care.
So if he's in the dumpker spot like you need
Clay and DeAngelo, or even if you flip those roles
between Lively and ad it just leads me because I'm
looking at the rest of this roster and it's like, oh, okay,
like where are the other shooters aside from them unless
you think it's Jadeen Hardy time or something like that.
So that's just what makes me uncomfortable about this. But
I still really like they could do some weird stuff,
like you said, I just I wonder if they're gonna
have the spacing in the half court to do, like
to really explore what Lively can do. I guess yeah.
And the other thing you mentioned that I'm fascinating is
then playing at like this Detroit Pistons esque pace from
two thousand and three, not saying you were inferring that
was the plan, but like, shouldn't this team be built
to like really hammer it in transition and in addition
like crashing the offensive glass which post Luca trade didn't
really do a ton of either of those things. But
you look at the personnel that's available. A D's injured,
So just will that be more at least the transition
stuff is not going to be more of an identity
when this team and you look like Brandon Williams is here,
Cooper Flagg is here. Ad can still run the floor,
Lively can run the floor.
Speaker 2: See that's where I'm very interested because Flag can obviously
dribble the ball. Fine. Ad I think is doesn't either
doesn't want it or hasn't gotten the opportunity to kind
of handle the ball and transition as much as other guys,
But you'd like to see it. I think it up
to their turnover turnovers quite a bit. But I also
think scoring on these Mavericks is going to be such
a bear that you got to find a way to
get easier points. Playing the half core game with the
Mavericks on offense is going to be ugly at times.
So I wouldn't mind some a little more reckless basketball
now and again if they can build and develop I
mean Flag and transition as a monster, not any and
I mean without the ball, like he's just he runs
so hard and it's so good at at you know,
kind of being like a kind of like an NFL
tight end where he gets open in space and can
go do things with the ball after he gets it.
That would be something I'd like to see. But I
just I bet they grind things to a halt man.
Speaker 1: That just that's kind of a bummer when you have
Cooper flag to me, but I also understand it.
Speaker 2: I agree it's it. Then that's where the Kyrie injury
comes into play, where it's like if you had D'angela
Russell as your secondary ball handler versus primary, you could
see some fun things. He was like, Okay, here are
these two guards, you know, mixing and matching and bringing
the ball at the court, and then just a fleet
of condors along the back line on defense. Oh, you
can talk yourself into that, but without it just gets funky.
Speaker 1: What is this team ceiling on defense? I keep going
back to you mentioned like scoring at the basket on them.
Team shot like fifty six percent at the rim when
Ad played the four last year with them, small sample size,
pretty bad, but just sort of like they were taking
a lot of shots at the rim during that time.
Speaker 2: They're still Ad was really bad. Ad was unhealthy. They
shouldn't have traded for him, and they should have gotten
additional compensation for the fact that they traded for an
unhealthy player. That's just the way this should have gone.
He was never right, and that's where the AD question
always becomes so challenging to talk about, because when is
Ad wright? There's not really a good answer for that one. However,
if you're looking at the team in theory, if he's
able to give you fifty five to sixty five games,
I mean, he missed his twenty games a year. Some
just sort of banking that in. If he can give
you high quality play during most of those games, I
think their defense is gonna be better. I mean, he
really didn't try on defense last year after that Rockets
game like there was ad in space was abysmal, which
is the thing that has actually been So that's what
has sort of differentiated him from other bigs is because
he was just he could guard anywhere, and he didn't
last year. He's gonna have additional help this year, but
he's gonna need to look like the defensive player that
he is has been during points in his career.
Speaker 1: Max Christie sent you guys for a little bit of
a rollercoaster ride, and when he came over in that
trade as well, what we're kind of your after watching
the Highs, after watching the Lows, we're just your overall
impressions of him and is his role with this team.
Speaker 2: Really loved him, and I think the important part about
the Lows I you want to go check out is
his minutes logs. He had clearly not played this much
consecutive basketball his in his entire life and hit the
equivalent of the rookie wall after about fifteen minute fifteen
games with the Mavericks. He started off with the Mavericks
like equaling scoring streaks that like Luca and Kyrie were
like the only two players to have ever done like.
He scored like fifteen points a game, like fifteen straight
games of something nuts.
Speaker 1: His name I think came up in like one of
those fines too, and then he just.
Speaker 2: Died on the vine where all of a sudden it
was like, Oh, this guy can't shoot, he can't defend,
he can't do anything. And I didn't really understand it
until my co host on pod Mavericks said, we'll just
go look at his minutes totals from this year and
last year, like he's one of the He was a
kind of a workhorse. And as much as you know,
you might prepare yourself and train and get in the gym,
you know, it's it's you know, we watched James Harden
run into this his first year with the Rockets. Sometimes
you just don't have the juice and you got to
you gotta figure out ways to be to build up
your body better. So I was really pleased with him.
I have high hopes in the sense of he's going
to be an excellent role player for his entire career.
Kind of guy. He's got a pretty high ceiling right now,
I'm sorry, a pretty high floor, which you want from
a role player. His shooting looked nice. I think he
was way too hot from the mid range, Like, that's
not something that sustained well. He was like dark Steph Curry,
Joel Embiid in the mid range for his time with Dallas,
at least in the first fifteen games. But you know,
for a guy that's I think he's got a really
affordable contract. He's an exciting player to have and he's
the kind of guy who can become a fan favorite
just with like his effort that sort of thing.
Speaker 1: Is there anything like specifically aside from you know, he's
he's pigeonholed into this three and D type box. Is
there anything else on offense? So you mentioned the mid
range game? How important is that to the matters it is?
You know, the drives went up a lot too when
he came over from LA Is there just something you're
monitoring with his offensive development or do you think maybe
there's not too much more to plumb based off what
you've seen.
Speaker 2: I'm not sure his ball handling needed a lot of work,
like a lot of work, but that's you know, you
get to the NBA and that's not uncommon. They have
Phil Handy now with the Mavericks, who is kind of
one of Kyrie's favorite guys, and you know they did lose.
Godsham got to the Magic which is one of the
best ball handling coaches in the league. But I I
think with some dedication and that sort of thing, like
his his offensive game improved a lot, the shooting things
like that. So if he can unlock any more ball
handling and become you know, more of a playmaker at all,
that could help unlock some stuff. The mid range game.
It's like, you hate to knock it because when shots
are going down, it's great, but it's just we know
now with what we know about like those longer two's,
they they're just an inefficient shot no matter who's doing it,
unless you're like one of the best five guys ever.
So so I'm not you know, we'll see where we
go with him. He's sort of penciled in for me
right now is like the ninth guy. Wow, okay, you know,
but that's just.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: But and he's gonna get his time. I think, you
know it. Maybe you know, he strikes me as a
guy who Jason Kidd would like a great deal. So well,
we'll see where it goes this season.
Speaker 1: Uh, Can I just get your quick thoughts on some
of like the younger or more improving guys on this
roster and any expectations you might have for that moving forward.
Speaker 2: Which guys are we talking about that are concerned?
Speaker 1: I want to start. I very little feel for him.
Mike Sheer of Basketball Poetry came on. We talked about
him a bunch with Hidden Gems. He really likes Brandon Williams.
What are your thoughts on Brandon Williams.
Speaker 2: So he's just kind of a two things. The good
thing is that he's a waterbug type player and they
don't have anybody else like this. I mean, he is
fast and he can score, and he is a very
also willing passer. The flip side is he's small and
he has part of why nobody knows who he is
because he's just injured a lot. He had a pretty
healthy season with the Mavericks, which is something. But I
just wonder how much they can rely on a guy
who was there who was like their two way guy. Like,
if that's a person who you're relying on, that says
much more about the roster construction than it does him.
I'm I really do enjoy watching him play because I
think he brings that true point guard element that they
just need minutes from. Uh, but I just sort of
I don't know where they're gonna they're getting those minutes.
If they're going to give them to Brandon Williams, those
minutes are going to come at the expense of a
better player who plays a different position, you know, just
that the log we just keep circling back to the
log jam at forward. The Mavericks just have a lot
of forwards. Are you not going to play Klay Thompson
because you need you need Brandon Williams running the point?
I mean the answer might be yes, and that just
that that has sort of different questions and concerns that
come up as a result of that.
Speaker 1: My thought with him is, especially if like he's hitting
his threes Brandon Williams, is does D'Angelo Russell somehow freelance
or play his way into Jason Kidd's doghouse? And is
that where maybe some of the minutes can be made up,
maybe even post Kyrie coming back.
Speaker 2: Maybe, I mean maybe I think part of why they
sought out D'Angel Russell's I think he actually works quite
well with ad Even though it seemed like that Lakers
team was ready to move on from him. I do
think he actually shares, like plays basketball well with Ad,
like knows AD's strengths. Ad sort of succeeds the most
when he has a penetrating guard that he can work with.
And I think Russell fits that Bill and men Williams
fits that Bill too, So you know, if you're looking
for upside, I just it's the names don't have the
pedigree that the Mavericks have had in the past. Obviously,
you know, you're coming off of like having Luke over
seven years. It's just sort of a different deal. But
I mean there's there's something there. I just wonder if
that becomes if that's a break glass in case of
emergency option for Jason Kidd versus something that they're trying
to incorporate earlier in the year.
Speaker 1: Do you have any early impressions of one Ryan Nemhard.
Speaker 2: Way too small? I saw him at Summer League.
Speaker 1: He is grow that's your advice to him, grow five.
Speaker 2: To nine, Like this is listed at six foot and
I was just he's really really good. It's just it's
a the NBA is the Land of Giants, Like it's
one of those things that people who don't go to
games regularly. So you go to a football game, like
Luka Doncic is three inches taller than Micah Parsons. Right,
these men are enormous that play in the NBA, and
it's like, when you're that small, you might be able
to run the offense, okay, but on defense, unless you're
Fred van Vliet and really Jalen Brunson levels of strong,
you're getting targeted and teams just because they nowadays, they
just find your mismatch and attack, attack, attack. I don't
care how many big guys you have behind. Maybe I'm wrong,
I would like to be wrong. I enjoyed watching him
play in Summer League. It's just is one of those
things that stands out for me.
Speaker 1: Given this team's need for ball handling and shooting, is
there a chance that this is the Jaden Hardy year.
Speaker 2: Jaden Hardy is the most confident basketball player I have
seen since Eddie House. He was so annoyingly effective during
the Mavericks road to the finals, like he had some
big moments in those playoffs, and then last year he
couldn't do anything. He couldn't get out of his own way.
He is a very much an ab decision tree kind
of guy. Where he either needs to catch the ball
on the move or catch the ball and shoot it.
Asking him to do something where he dribbles, it becomes oh, no,
he's dribbling situation, and I just don't think he fits.
I mean, his agent got him in on a good deal,
because I think had he not signed that deal, I
don't think he'd be in the NBA right now.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, Yeah, that's it because he's only what is
he on? He's making like what four million bucks that
I think he's on like the year.
Speaker 2: Two of Like, it's a good deal. It's like the
kind of deal you can include in a trade package,
but also doesn't like hurt you know, you're not like
digging into a team's cap and be like, oh no,
why'd we sign that guy?
Speaker 1: Are you ready to enter the annual cookie Cutters Last
Lightning Round portion of the podcast?
Speaker 2: Absolutely?
Speaker 1: So, we've gone over it. But I have to ask,
it's the cookie Cutter question. Looking at the roster right now,
what is this team's single biggest need And if you
have the second biggest need beyond that, feel free to
throw it in. Since we talked about the first one
so much.
Speaker 2: I still think dribbling overtakes shooting as a need. Uh maybe,
because I think you can manufacture some good shooting if
you have the dribble penetration to like driving kick because
NBA players are good at shooting balls.
Speaker 1: So just yeah, I mean, and you have Clay and
PJ and yeah for.
Speaker 2: Sure, Yeah, and PJ is even okay, you know, it's
like Anthony Davis is like the one room, Like that
guy actually can't shoot, doesn't really matter, but the rest
of them I'm interested in. So I would say dribbling.
Speaker 1: Is there anything about this team could be a strength,
another concern, a story line that's flying under the radar
that you think deserves more of a spotlight as we
head into the season.
Speaker 2: Honestly, the coaching staff, Okay, the coaching staff is good.
They have Frank Vogel on the bench, Jay Treano. They
just have sort of a deep roster of guys that
know that our experienced problem solvers in a basketball sense.
They have I read the full list of coaches, like,
they have eleven coaches for a fifteen person roster, And
obviously that's not abnormal, but that's just that would be
my initial takeaway. Where as much as kid drives me
crazy at times. I think he surrounded himself with some
good people to be able to help manage the season.
Speaker 1: What about the overhaul of just the health training staff,
however you want to what youever you want?
Speaker 2: Well, when you go from doctor Nick or whoever they
had back there in the training staff, it's got to
be getting better. You know, you can't misdiagnose a broken
ankle like that's it's everything will have to improve in
that regard.
Speaker 1: I think mine for this team is something I don't
get things talked about enough is and part of this
is Nico's fault is every He's just been boxed into this.
This is what he wants, this is what he's doing.
I'm curious, is, like Cooper Flag changes things to some extent,
what is his willingness to adapt as the season goes on?
If this season goes poorly, is he going to move
off contracts and maybe put them You mentioned trading Anthony Davis.
I'm not saying that should necessarily be the endgame, but like,
is he willing to be reactive at least to that
degree if something goes wrong or if something goes right,
if it's clear, oh this team is you know, Kyrie's
back and we're the three seed in the West, but
we need something to get us a little over the hump. Like,
how aggressive is he in going about that? I'm curious
what his flexibility is on his current vision for this
roster and this window.
Speaker 2: It's a great question. But I if I'm to give
him credit in one regard, it's that he is unafraid
of huge swings. When you look at his portfolio of
moves with the Mavericks, every single one has been a
pretty big swing. Bringing Christian Would and sending out four
contracts in a first round pick, it's a big that's
a big move because it also included one of Luca's
best friends back then, Boban and Marianovitch. The Kyrie trade enormous,
Like we look back on it now and they're like, oh,
it's Kyrie Irving. I mean, Kyrie Irving is coming off
a three year stretch where everybody thought he was insane
and unable to play basketball, and they got him at
what ended up being an okay rate. Uh. The Luka
Danciks trade itself, the Porzingis trade for the back back then,
it's just a big So there's a number of his
moves where you've got to say, all right, this guy's
at least willing to take the swing. Because the Mavericks
are projected to be over the second apron next year,
I think that just has to exist as sort of
a hanging chad with what the Mavericks do, because you
always have to be looking ahead. You cannot box yourself in,
and the Mavericks are very close to being boxed in
with where their salary.
Speaker 1: Is right now right, And I think with the second
apron too, is people just pointed out it's like dipping
your toes in there for one or two years at
a time is fine, but you need to pick and
choose when that one or two year window coming because
you don't want to be, you know, start the clock on.
We need to stay out of it for X years
in a row. Otherwise our pick gets moved to the end
of the first round. And if you're the MAVs next year,
let's say, if they're good enough, okay, I guess you
could stay in the second apron, but like what is
good enough in that regard? Like, is this team just
gonna roll into fifty something wins and look like a
title contender out of the Gate. That's a tough sell
just unless Cooper Flag is like an All NBA player
in year one basically.
Speaker 2: Right, And I think they're gonna be good enough to
be interesting, but still sort of in like that play
in mix.
Speaker 1: You're building a ten man rotation without Kyrie Irving. Who
are the ten members of that rotation?
Speaker 2: So we mentioned six earlier, Dangela Russell, Cooper Flag, Klay Thompson,
Anthony Davis, Derek Lively, Dan Gafford. That was sort of no. PJ. Washington, Sorry,
that was sort of my mix. The other guys that
you got here have to be Naji Marshall, Max Christie
on the run there you have the rundown, you put
down Caleb Martin, but I think it has to be
Brandon Williams. I really think that he's just gonna work
himself up there to be the third guard to where
they need it, because Caleb Williams by the end of
last year, it was like, what does this guy do
at an NBA level? It was pretty uncomfortable.
Speaker 1: And then when Kyrie comes back, it's probably Brandon Williams
that gets the bump in that situation.
Speaker 2: Yes, if he comes back this year, yes, but even still,
you know, you got to be flexible enough to where
if Kyrie comes back with thirty games left, you only
probably expect him to play like twenty.
Speaker 1: If he does come back this year, what is your
appetitor expectation for how much him and D'Angelo Russell play
together or is that something they're going to look to
heavily stagger.
Speaker 2: I think they would. My instincts would say they would
stagger it except for must win situations, just to get
the most out of it and really to sort of
keep Kid is a guy that strikes me as he
doesn't want to show his cards that much. It's why
he kills me during the middle of the year where
it's like January February, they just run dog water offenses
where nothing's interesting, and it's like, well, this is when
you've got to be stacking wins if you want to
be a playoff team. So I expect them to sort
of stagger if that would be the case.
Speaker 1: I didn't include this on your rundown, but because we've
talked about it so much without Kyrie, what is your
best offensive lineup for this team?
Speaker 2: Offensive lineup? Okay, that would vary that that would be
pretty simple where I think you would have to go
jan Angelo, Russell, Klay Thompson, PJ. Washington, Cooper, Flag, Uh,
Deck Lively. I think I get the three is the
workable one there?
Speaker 1: Wait, so that hadd Lo flag Lively?
Speaker 2: Did I not say Clay? God? Am I this bad?
At this? Let's try.
Speaker 1: I thought you said Clay and PJ and a D.
I thought it is the guy year.
Speaker 2: That's a tough one. See, I think a D at
the five is highly overrated because he can't shoot. That's
just me. I just hate watching Anthony Davis play offense.
It's it's really painful. I'm probably the worst person to
ask that question too. But I want to see Flag
in like a a four, like a three to four
role at That's where my center, my focus would be.
Speaker 1: So this is to some extent matchup dependent, But if
the season ends, what would you expect to be their
go to crunch time lineup? By then?
Speaker 2: Crunch time? All right, that's where Anthony Davis probably would
play the five. So you got Anthony Davis, Cooper and PJ.
It is kind of flanking Anthony Davis, and then some
mix of maybe like a Max Christi and a D'Angelo Russell.
Speaker 1: Okay, is there a weirdo lineup you want to see
Jason Kidd try?
Speaker 2: I mean in the weirdo lineup's like the basic lineup
we keep describing where it's like he's Cooper flagged the two, Like,
I just I I understand it, but it feels so
two K where it's like you know we're gonna move
this completely. I just I can't. I can't possibly imagine
it where it's gonna be so bizarre. That's I don't
want to see it. But that's the one where it's
just like this is for the weirdos and unfortunately, and
it just I gotta tell you a lot of people
in mads Land like just don't really believe that this
is what kid's gonna do. It's like he's really gonna
play Cooper flag in a two guard position.
Speaker 1: Well, so here's my thing, and what would be my
pick is that at that point just throw Cooper flag
at the one and then have flag PJ. Nasey a
D and then I guess Lively is the best big
for that same that's just.
Speaker 2: I keep leaving nause out and I shouldn't. Nase is
a incredible connecting piece within an offense. He can't shoot
to save his life, but he does everything else really well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and when he's downhill, man, hm, he's.
Speaker 2: It's very underrated. They have him on a great contract.
That's where this is just so tough for me, because
I think, if you're doing what's best for the team,
that's what you do, and for Flags to I'm sorry.
If you're doing what's best for flags development, you put
the ball in his hands and you say, come what may.
Because if it's the difference between the Mavericks winning thirty
seven games or forty two games, who cares you want? Like,
if that's the difference between you being the tenth seed
or the eleventh seed, you eat that because you're not
going anywhere anyways.
Speaker 1: Before I have you make some predictions. Is there anything
or anyone else about this team that we didn't discuss
that you believe Warren's conversation.
Speaker 2: No, But I'm glad you reminded me about Nause because
he's just so underappreciated within wider NBA circles. Just a
really talented, interesting, weird player.
Speaker 1: So you and Josh bo your co host on pod Maverick,
did this exercise and on an episode iversen Toro recently
that I loved, and so I want to ask you
about it. What is the floor and ceiling for you
for this team in terms of wins. If you're putting
a ceiling on the number of wins, you could see
them getting a factory in the totality of everything, injuries, trades, whatever.
Speaker 2: I really think it's like such a hilariously small margin difference.
Matt Moore HP Basketball said to me one three. He's like,
there's just five games every season for every team that
you have to throw out the window in the sense
that they could have won it, they could have lost it.
It was a complete toss up. They might win those
five games next year, they might lose those five games
next year. And I think about that a lot, because
I think the five game margin for this Mavericks team
is sort of their floor and their ceiling. Now, where
you think that Hits is almost entirely up to how
if you think that Anthony Davis is a superstar, and
you know, he started out like I don't know if
you remember his start to last season, he was like
thirty one and twelve for twenty games. He was outstanding,
and then he Anthony Davis himself out the rest of
the season, like those twenty games carried his numbers. I
think think their floor is quite literally something like like
thirty nine to forty games. Like I think they're gonna
be just fine. I think they're gonna win a lot,
and I think they're gonna have losing streaks. But then
at the end of the day, they're too talented to
lose that many games. Even if they can't dribble. They
just have too many good players to be unsubstantiatedly awful.
That's that. But the flip side of that is without Kyrie,
and I'm sort of banking in a Kyrie non season
in this prediction, not playing at all, I would say
forty five games is like the ceiling just barely over
five hundred.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, Okay, yeah, that is like a that's a
really finn margin forty.
Speaker 2: Five and thirty seven or like forty and then like
forty and forty two. It's sort of like my my
ceiling and my floor.
Speaker 1: If we're operating, if we were to operate on the
assumption that you're not getting a Kyrie Irving season, I
think their floor might be lower than that. And I
know that like if you're a top tier defense and
can like play in the muck. You'll win a lot
of games in the regular season. But without Kyrie Irving,
they're all like their offense is just inundated with question
marks and redundancies.
Speaker 2: I think that's true, and I I'll tell you this.
As I make these predictions, it serves me no good
to be to crap on the team, because none of
my fans and people that listen want to hear that.
Everybody wants to be told they're special. So I think
i'm I'm I'm attempting to be optimistic in a large
sense because if things go downhill, then they're gonna start
making some sweeping changes they just have to and what
and that sort of throws all your prediction stuff out
the window.
Speaker 1: What's also interesting is I think they're ceiling. If you
get anything from Kyrie, might be a lot higher because
their size and what they can do on defense makes
me like it just wouldn't shock me if this team
won fifty games. I don't know in terms of playoff
threat level, I don't ascribe a ton to that for them,
but just as a regular season team, if they're any
z impoints of healthy, that defense manahould be really good,
and so it wouldn't shock me if they were like
a forty nine to fifty win team. I wouldn't predict it.
And so now I'll ask you this, where do you
ultimately see them landing in the Western Conference standing hierarchy.
Speaker 2: I think they're just going to be in that playing group.
Let mean, just go look, this is a good question.
I should have had the final standings pulled up from
last year because I actually have some spicy takes about
the teams that are around them. So the Mavericks finished
last year tenth. There was a pretty clear grouping of
teams roughly from so the Lakers won fifty games, and
then it goes down and they were the three seed.
The Mavericks were the tenth seed of thirty nine, so
eleven games separated those teams. Kings were for forty wins.
And then there's like a jump up to the Grizzlies
and the Warriors, the grouping of teams that are going
to be kind of playing for this stuff. I see
the Grizzlies taking a pretty major step back. I don't
think that's unconstrab versil. Maybe I'm wrong.
Speaker 1: They might be one of the most confusing teams in
the West.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's fair. Like they have talent, and
it's it's like, what do you get out of what
do you get out of the players that you have.
The Kings, I think are going to be pretty pretty
weird and in a in a not fun way to watch,
So I think maybe they drop off. Son's obviously pretty bad.
I think Portland and San Antonio take steps in the
right direction, but I I don't believe in the Spurs.
I believe in the Spurs.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say I don't believe in them, but the
amount of people that think that they're just I know
they won the minutes with Wemby last year, but we're
talking about guys who haven't made it through an entire season.
There's him, you have these two young guards and Steph Castle,
Dylan Harper. There's redundancies on their roster. I think a
lot of people are overestimating the challenges they're gonna face
on offense.
Speaker 2: So I'm with you, well, and I actually think that
this is not a Wemby knock. I think Wenby's gonna
put up MVP level numbers, but his desire to play
like early career. Kristaps forzingis drives me crazy. Thirteen threes
is too many when you're seven to five you shoot
seventy percent in the lane, just just the shot diet
just needs to shift a little.
Speaker 1: So that's I agree that to take about a shot diet,
But I think that it's the Spurs is fault because
he has been their best floor spacer basically, and so
you needed that outside volume from him and to get
him into the lane. I think now that you have
darn Fox, the question becomes is there enough spacing around them?
And that's the so I think we will see more
of when be getting easier paint touches. So I agree
they need to happen. I just don't think the Spurs
have been built to drum those up yet.
Speaker 2: So it's just I think they're all in the mix
with those guys like I like my My, my scorching
hot take is that the Mavericks are going to thump
the Spurs on Opening Night and it's gonna be like
the Mavericks are back. Nico was right, bah ba, but
and it's it's just gonna be very very silly, great
course fodder.
Speaker 1: So is there if they make the playoffs. Is there
like a team that you find to be like a
particularly fascinating or even concerning matchup for them, I would
say non Oklahoma City Thunder Division concerning is the Clippers.
Speaker 2: The Clippers beat the Mavericks twice last season towards the
end of the year so badly. It was like it
was one of those home and home ones in LA
and it was such a brutal beatdown where I'm sitting
here going why do we why are we even? Why
does the playing exist? This is this? This is not
These are two completely different teams, So it's like that's
that's sort of the team that that I think they
could They could absolutely like just get walloped by a
team that would be sort of fun. And this is
not just because of the trade implications, Like I think
the Mavericks and Lakers would be hilariously fun kind of
like playoff adjacent matchup, not just for the storylines, but
because of the play styles. The Mavericks have a bunch
of players that Luca would play really well with because
he has uh and the Lakers have a bunch of
guys who really really look like the The twenty twenty
one Dallas Mavericks like it's it's very weird how how
those two teams are built. So it's like the styles
make fights matchup could be a lot of fun.
Speaker 1: I would be fascinated to see them play the rockets
where it's like, are both of these teams the smallest
player on the court at some point will be six
to seven six eight, and they could they have Kevin
Durant Now is I guess this? Their offense shouldn't be
as ugly, but like, these are two teams I could
really ugly it up on offense and be like try
to down your throats and get to the basket rather
than operate from the perimeter.
Speaker 2: Watching Amen Thompson guard various players from this Mavericks team
and then vice versa is gonna be a lot of fun.
Like that's where it feels very Spurs Pistons too, in
those kind of where it's just it's like really good
teams that just bom And that's that's what I would
see from with not all of shot making.
Speaker 1: It's like a movable object. It meets a movable object
basically very much.
Speaker 2: That's that's the descriptor I would go with Kirk.
Speaker 1: This was great as always. Thank you for giving me
so much of your time like you do every year.
Are you just able to tell our listeners, watchers, viewers, subscribers, whatever,
where they can find you in all the great work
that you do.
Speaker 2: MAVs, Moneyballs where I run website over there, got a
lot of different people to contribute, you know, from sort
of all sorts of different Mavericks adjacent point of views.
They just switched over our back end to a different look,
so our website looks a lot different, which is fun.
If you want to listen to me on podcasts, there's
YouTube and anywhere you can get your podcast, look up
pod Maverick. We record an awful lot during the season,
so it's like if there's a particular postgame show game, yeah,
game show, if there's a particular game that you found
worth it, my co host and I are diving into it.
And so that's that's kind of my main recommendations.
Speaker 1: Thank you once again, Kirk, And as you know by
now rest of short I'll be pasting you again. Down
go on,