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Speaker 1: Welcome to Thrilling Threads. This is the show where we

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pull on a single thread and watch a whole tapestry

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of secrets, conspiracies, and just truly bizarre stories unravel. We

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go straight to the source material to figure out what

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really happened.

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Speaker 2: And today the story we're getting into is, I mean,

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it's a real tangle. It's this perfect storm really where

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you have the you know, the free wheeling counterculture of

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the sixties and seventies crashing head on into the Cold

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Wars deep state paranoia.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about the Finder's Cult.

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Speaker 2: Exactly and specifically this one moment in nineteen eighty seven

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when a couple of local cops in Florida pull over

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a van and accidentally stumble into something so much bigger,

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so much more connected than they ever could have imagined.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so let's set the scene, because this is really

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where it all kicks off. The date is February fourth,

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nineteen eighty seven. We're in Tallahassee, Florida.

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Speaker 2: Right, and please get a call about two men acting

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suspiciously in a park. They get there and these aren't

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your typical vagrants or anything. The reports all emphasize this

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one detail. They were well dressed men in.

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Speaker 1: Suits, which immediately feels off right suits in a park

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behaving strangely. It suggests something organized.

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Speaker 2: But that's not even the shocking part. The real shock

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was what was with them. They had six children.

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Speaker 1: Six kids, and the ages range from just two years

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old all the way up to eleven, and.

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Speaker 2: Their condition was just horrifying. The reports are really graphic.

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They were filthy, scruffy, hadn't been washed, they were covered

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in insect bites, and a medical exam later confirmed they

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were seriously malnourished.

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Speaker 1: So this is severe obvious neglect.

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Speaker 2: No question. But then the reaction of the adults is

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what takes it to this whole other level of strange.

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The two men, Douglas Hammerman and James Michael Holwell, they

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don't panic, they don't make excuses, oh they do. They

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just produce a card, a pre printed card that states

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their constitutional right to remain silent.

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Speaker 1: Wait, not a lawyer's business card, like a laminated card.

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Speaker 2: They just had on them exactly like it was standard issue.

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It showed this weirdly rehearsed, totally and frankly creepy lack

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of cooperation.

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Speaker 1: It was like a protocol that is bizarre. The contrast

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between these buttoned up guys with their legal rights cards

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and the condition of these poor kids.

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Speaker 2: And if that's jarring, the state of the children themselves was, well,

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it was something else entirely. The behavioral scientists who saw them,

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they said the kids acted like they'd been and this

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is a quote institutionalized for a prolonged period.

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Speaker 1: Institutionalized What does that even mean?

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Speaker 2: They were described as zombie like like shells, And maybe

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the most telling detail of all, they seemed completely unaware

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of the most basic modern things, like they didn't know

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what a telephone was or a television.

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Speaker 1: Wow. Okay, so that detail the phone and the TV

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that screams intentional isolation. That's not just parents who are

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poor or struggling. That's the deliberate program of cultural deprivation.

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Speaker 2: It had to be. So the initial charges are just

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misdemeanor child abuse, but the whole situation is so weird,

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so full of red flags, that it just explodes. Contemporary

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AP news reports called it one of the weirdest conspiracy

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stories to ever come out.

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Speaker 1: So that's our mission for this deep dive. We're going

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to follow that thread. We're pulling from those associated press reports,

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but also from internal FBI documents that have been released

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through the FBI record's.

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Speaker 2: Fault, and some really crucial forensic and custom service analyzes.

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We're going to try and untangle these totally competing stories.

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Was this just a a misunderstood new age commune living

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off the grid, or was.

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Speaker 1: It a dangerous satanic cult ye know, cut up in

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that whole moral panic of the eighties.

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Speaker 2: Or and this is the big one, was it a

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covert intelligence operation that went sideways so badly that the

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CIA itself had to step in and shut down the

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entire police investigation.

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Speaker 1: That's the core conflict, right, the alleged cover up, because

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on one hand, you've got local police seizing documents that

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literally seem to be manuals on how to procure children, yeah.

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Speaker 2: And Tell's messages about trafficking. But on the other hand,

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the whole federal case just vanishes the customs reports we

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have alleged the investigation suddenly became a CIA internal matter

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and was classified secret from.

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Speaker 1: Local child abuse to a classified national security.

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Speaker 2: Issue in the blink of an eye. That's the story.

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That's the thread we need to follow.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So to get any kind of handle on this,

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you have to start with the man at the center

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of it all, the architect.

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Speaker 2: Mary and David Petty. He's the founder, the guru, the

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guy who created the Finders, and his own personal history

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is well, it's the definition of a tangled thread.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, his early life doesn't exactly scream commune leader. Yeah,

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he was born in nineteen twenty. He actually retired from

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the US Air Force in nineteen.

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Speaker 2: Fifty six as a master sergeant. No less. So that's

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a career built on structure, hierarchy, discipline, all the things

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you wouldn't associate with this group.

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Speaker 1: Right, And after he gets out of the Air Force,

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he doesn't really have a formal job. He spends his

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time building this persona of a like an intellectual guru.

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He even gives himself all these dramatic titles.

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Speaker 2: Oh they're very dramatic. He called himself the stroller, the student,

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the pathfinder. But the most important one, the one that

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really defines his role, was the game caller.

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Speaker 1: The game caller. We're going to come back to that

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because while these names sound kind of philosophical and harmless,

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when the police started digging in eighty seven, they found

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some biographical details that immediately raised all kinds of red flags.

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Speaker 2: You're talking about the family connections to the intelligence world exactly.

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Speaker 1: This isn't just a theory. It's documented. Petty's wife, a

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woman named Isabella, was a confirmed CIA employee. She worked

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in their record's division from nineteen fifty two to nineteen

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sixty one.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so that's one direct link.

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Speaker 1: But there's more. His son, George Petty worked for a

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company called.

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Speaker 2: Air America, And for anyone who doesn't know, Air America

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was one of the most famous covert CIA front companies

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in history. It was used for all sorts of operations

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during the Vietnam era. It was the CIA's private airline.

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Speaker 1: So this isn't a distant connection. This is his wife

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and his son, two generations operating right inside the US

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intelligence infrastructure.

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Speaker 2: Which you know. It puts a huge amount of pressure

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on the CIA's later claims that they knew nothing about

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this group. It's just not credible.

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Speaker 1: And Petty himself, he didn't run from this stuff. In

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an interview in nineteen ninety three, he leaned right into it.

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He claimed he ran a private intelligence game.

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Speaker 2: He also claimed he'd been investigating the CIA before it

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was the OSS. The OSS was the Office of Strategic Services,

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the CIA's predecessor during World War Two.

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Speaker 1: He even claimed he sent his own wife into the

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agency to be a spy on the CIA.

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Speaker 2: Now, whether that's true or just you know, paranoid grandiosity,

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doesn't really matter. It tells you one crucial thing, what's up.

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Marian Petty saw his entire world, his whole organization through

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the lens of spycraft, surveillance, counter surveillance operations. That was

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his mindset.

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Speaker 1: So the group itself, the Finders, it started to take

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shape around nineteen seventy one in Washington, d C. And

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kind of evolved from this loosey goosey counterculture group into

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something much more secretive. They called it an intentional community.

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Speaker 2: And their philosophy was this incredibly eclectic mix of things,

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which frankly, probably made it a perfect cover for whatever

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they were really doing is.

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Speaker 1: A total mashup. You had Eastern religions like Taoism, you know,

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the idea of the path or the flow.

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Speaker 2: Blended with all that New Age stuff from the Human

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Potential movement, this idea of reaching your full self. Potential.

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Experts who looked at them also said futurism was a

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huge part of it, this obsession with predicting and shaping

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the future.

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Speaker 1: They even pulled ideas from Carlos Castaneda's books, which were

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all about mystic self exploration and were super popular at

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the time.

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Speaker 2: The common thread in all of this is this idea

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of transformation through really unconventional and often isolated experiences, and

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that connects directly back to Petty.

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Speaker 1: To the game caller.

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Speaker 2: Exactly, he ran the entire group as a literal private

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intelligence game. The documents explained that members would be sent

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on these intense, open ended missions he called adventures.

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Speaker 1: And the purpose of these adventures.

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Speaker 2: Ostensibly, it was to correct some character flaw that Petty

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had identified in you. He was the game, so he

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would diagnose your weakness and then design a mission to

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fix it.

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Speaker 1: I just want to pause on that idea for a second.

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The game psychologically, how does that framework give you an

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advantage if you're trying to run a secret organization, whether

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it's a cult or an intelligence asset.

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Speaker 2: It's the perfect control mechanism. It's brilliant in a very

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sinister way. If your entire belief system is built around

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these missions that are designed to test you and make

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you better, then you'll do anything anything, suddenly leaving your

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family for months, traveling to a foreign country, handling strange information,

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even doing things that are morally questionable. It can all

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be justified as part of your personal growth. It's just

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part of the game.

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Speaker 1: It makes the members totally available, right. They can't hold

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down a normal nine to five jobs.

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Speaker 2: They were actively opposed to it. They saw permanent employment

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as an obstacle to spontaneity, and that's a direct quote.

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They needed to be able to drop everything and go

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on a mission at a moment's notice.

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Speaker 1: And these weren't like dropouts from society. The UMBER profile

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was generally young, well educated professionals. People could get temp

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work in DC easily.

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Speaker 2: Which also means they had skills and they could blend in.

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The organization had physical locations too. They had a ninety

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acre property out in Nethers, Virginia they just called the Farm, which.

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Speaker 1: Had its own camouflage. It had a history as a

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sort of sixties hippie commune, a place that gave out

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free organic meals.

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Speaker 2: But by the early eighties neighbors started noticing a change.

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They saw visitors showing up in business suits and professional clothes,

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so it was shifting away from that rustic ideal towards

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something more operational.

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Speaker 1: And in DC itself, they had a house in Glover

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Park and this big warehouse on Fourth Street. Any and

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that warehouse, as we'll find out, was basically their operations center.

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Speaker 2: And this is critical. They were incredibly sophisticated with their money.

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The group pooled all their funds and they used what

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the documents called bank secrecy protocols. This wasn't just passing

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a collection plate. They were managing serious assets.

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Speaker 1: We know this for a fact, right because of that

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later court case.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, in nineteen ninety six, a legal dispute came up

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that involved a briefcase. And in that briefcase where land

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deeds belonging to the finders worth about two million dollars.

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Speaker 1: Two million dollars in nineteen ninety six money.

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Speaker 2: It speaks to decades of very careful, very sophisticated wealth accumulation,

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way beyond what you'd expect from some simple back to

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the Land group.

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Speaker 1: So if we're summarizing this first part, the picture is

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pretty clear. Mary and Petty built an organization that was

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on the surface about self help and philosophy.

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Speaker 2: But structurally it was designed for clandestine operations. It had

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financially savvy members, it was secretive, and it was psychologically

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conditioning its people through this game. That's the duality we

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have to keep in mind.

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Speaker 1: And it's that duality that starts to break down when

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we look at how they tweeted their children.

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Speaker 2: Right. The whole thing really shifted around nineteen eighty. That's

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when the group moved from just being a secretive community

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to becoming the target of a criminal investigation, and it

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all hinged on their radical ideas about raising kids.

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Speaker 1: This is where the story gets really dark. They decided

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they were going to raise a new generation of quote

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toughened children.

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Speaker 2: The idea was to raise them communally, so without any

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real parental intervention, because they saw traditional parenting as an

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obstacle to the child's development.

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Speaker 1: What was the stated sounds insane.

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Speaker 2: The intent, as they explained it was high minded but

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very bizarre. They believe they were replicating the original, self

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reliant way of life of Native Americans. The goal was

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to create these incredibly resilient, spontaneous children who weren't burdened

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by modern society.

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Speaker 1: But the reality of that was just systemic neglect.

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Speaker 2: Profound neglect. The parents. The adult would be sent away

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on their adventures for months at a time, leaving the

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kids behind, leaving the kids to be cared for collectively

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by whoever was around, who were themselves totally wrapped up

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in the game.

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Speaker 1: And the sources show this had immediate terrible consequence.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah. Neighbors, both at the farm in Virginia and

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the houses in DC, they reported hearing the children just

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hollering and screaming about mama and daddy. This wasn't just

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a kid having a tantrum. It was constant enough that

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it got official attention.

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Speaker 1: There was that one police complaint in nineteen eighty two,

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right because a child was heard screaming for more than

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an hour straight exactly.

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Speaker 2: And neighbors in DC also said the kids would sometimes

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just be running around with no clothes on in the summer,

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So police were aware of this group's strange lifestyle years

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before the big arrest in eighty seven. That nineteen eighty

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two complaint didn't lead to charges, but it put them

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on the radar.

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Speaker 1: Which brings us back full circle to that arrest in Tallahassee.

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You have that contrast again, the two men, Amraman and

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Hoholwell in their business suits, trying to keep up appearances.

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Speaker 2: But the state of the children just blows their cover completely.

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The medical exams confirmed it all filthy, covered in bug bites,

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and clearly malnourished.

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Speaker 1: The psychological reports, though, that's what's so hard to get

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your head around. You mentioned they acted like wild animals

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or like they'd been institutionalized.

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Speaker 2: It's the details. The fact that these kids, some as

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old as eleven, had no concept of a telephone. It

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suggests this wasn't just neglect. It was a program, a deliberate,

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systematic campaign of isolation. It's a method of control.

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Speaker 1: So the game wasn't just for the adults. The children

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were being conditioned too.

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Speaker 2: They were being conditioned to exist completely outside of normal society,

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and the adults showed signs of it too. The report

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said that when the men were being transported by police,

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they would just go limp, and during questioning they acted

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like they were in a trance like state.

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Speaker 1: Another protocol, a rehearsed reaction designed to resist interrogation.

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Speaker 2: It seems like it and their cover story, their official

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explanation for what they were doing, was just flimsy.

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Speaker 1: What did they claim?

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Speaker 2: They claimed they were just transporting the children south. They

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said they were on their way to Mexico to a

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special school for smart kids.

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Speaker 1: School for smart kids. But the kids are malnourished and

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bug bitten.

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Speaker 2: It makes zero sense. I mean, if you're taking gifted

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children to a special academy, they don't look like that.

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The Tallahassee Police saw right through it. They suspected this

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was a huge operation, spanning from the East coast, maybe

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up to Canada and down into Mexico.

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Speaker 1: So they immediately notified the FBI and the DC.

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Speaker 2: Police, who already knew about the group from those earlier complaints.

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The whole thing, the weirdly professional adults, the institutionalized kids,

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the pre printed silence card. It just screamed that this

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was way bigger than a local neglect case. This looked

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like a coordinated, maybe even international effort to move children

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under the radar.

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Speaker 1: U rest in Tallahassee was the spark, but the fire

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really started when they searched the finders' properties back in DC.

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Speaker 2: Yes, this is where the most sensational, most damning evidence

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comes to light. The findings from these raids are what

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took the story from a weird cult to a sophisticated,

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potentially global trafficking and intelligence operation.

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Speaker 1: They hit two places at once, right, the house in

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Glover Park and that big warehouse on Fourth Street.

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Speaker 2: Correct, And what they found inside just completely blew apart

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any idea that this was some simple back to nature group.

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This operation was for the mid nineteen eighties incredibly technologically advanced.

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Warehouse especially the warehouse wasn't a home, It was an

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operational center. It had a video room that was described

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as an indoctrination center. They had professional video production equipment

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in there, and.

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Speaker 1: There were training areas for children.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and then you get the really disturbing stuff. Investigators

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found jars of urine and feces. The police theory at

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the time was that this was part of some psychological

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control regimen, you know, using biological functions as a way

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to dominate or monitor people.

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Speaker 1: But the real proof of their sophistication was the communications network.

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This confirms the private intelligence game wasn't just a fantasy

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in Petty's head.

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Speaker 2: It was high tech. They found evidence they were using

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MCI account numbers and t HeLEX machines. We have to

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pause on that for a second. This is nineteen eighty seven.

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This is an email or texting. No.

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Speaker 1: Atelex was a dedicated network for sending typed messages over

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long distances. It's what banks and governments used for secure

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communication exactly.

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Speaker 2: So they were using corporate levels secure communications infrastructure, not payphones,

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to send out operational instructions all over the world.

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Speaker 1: And the instructions were specific.

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Speaker 2: Chillingly specific. They found messages detailing how to move the

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children across different state lines and jurisdictions to avoid being

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caught by the police. This is not a bunch of hippies.

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This is an organization that understands communications, security and legal loopholes.

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Speaker 1: This high tech setup is the backdrop for the really

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bombshell evidence which comes from the documents they seized, and

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these were detailed meticulously in the reports by a US

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Customs Service special agent named Ramon J. Martinez.

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Speaker 2: Martinez's reports lay out the strongest case for what was

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really going on. He detailed what he found and the

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documents are just direct. He reported finding files that he

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called child procurement manuals.

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Speaker 1: Child procurement Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And these manuals had step by step instructions on how

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to get children.

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Speaker 1: What kind of methods were they talking about?

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Speaker 2: The methods listened where I mean they're horrifying. The documents

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included instructions on impregnation of female members, purchasing children, trading,

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and explicitly kidnapping.

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Speaker 1: So the documents themselves are evidence of a criminal conspiracy.

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The question is were these just like theoretical fantasies for

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their game or were they actual operational plans.

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Speaker 2: Well, the international scope suggests they were operational. Agent Martinez

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cited one specific telex message that was recovered. It was

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an explicit order to purchase two children in Hong Kong.

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In Hong Kong, and it named a specific contact, someone

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at the Chinese embassy there. This isn't a fantasy. This

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is a direct operational order that was intercepted by law enforcement.

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Speaker 1: And there were other files pointing to a much bigger network.

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Speaker 2: A huge network. They found files indicating operations or contacts

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in London, Germany, the Bahamas, Japan, Malaysia, Africa, Costa Rica.

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They were even tracking passport data for travel to places

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like Moscow, North Korea, and North Vietnam.

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Speaker 1: Which in nineteen eighty seven was not something a tourists did.

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Traveling to North Vietnam back then required deep cover state

374
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level approval that list of countries looks like an intelligence

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agency's operational map.

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Speaker 2: And it wasn't just about moving kids. They were also

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gathering intelligence on American citizens. They kept these extensive intelligence

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files on private families who had no connection to the group.

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Speaker 1: How were they getting that information?

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Speaker 2: It was insidious. They would answer local newspaper ads for

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babysitters or tutors. Then they'd go into these people's homes

382
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and gather all this intimate data on them, their habits,

383
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their jobs, their identities, all on unsuspecting families.

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Speaker 1: So they're running domestic intelligence operations.

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Speaker 2: It looks that way. They also had documents on topics

386
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like Pentagon, break in terrorism explosives, and detailed plans for

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evasion of law enformith. It showed this extreme obsession with

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00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:05,680
spycraft and targeting critical infrastructure.

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Speaker 1: And this is where the whole investigation just slams right

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into the biggest cultural anxiety of.

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Speaker 2: The nineteen eighties, this satanic panic. Because amidst all these

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operational documents, they find a photo album and the title

393
00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:20,799
of the album was the Execution of Henrietta and Igor.

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Speaker 1: And the police at the time they see these photos

395
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and they immediately interpret them through that satanic panic lens.

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Speaker 2: What they saw were photos of adults and children dressed

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in white sheets dismembering goats. There was a photo of

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a child in chains, another one of a child holding

399
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a dead goat fetus that had been pulled from its

400
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mother's womb.

401
00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:40,119
Speaker 1: Gosh.

402
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Speaker 2: One of the photos was even captioned Ben finds Henrietta's womb.

403
00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:49,079
The police were absolutely convinced this was evidence of cult rituals,

404
00:19:49,559 --> 00:19:52,720
ceremonial blood letting, maybe even Satanism.

405
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Speaker 1: There was that one officer, Scott Hunt from the Tallahassee PD,

406
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who was totally convinced. He said he believed the parents

407
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in the group had give up their rights to their

408
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children as a right of passage.

409
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Speaker 2: But then you get the counter narrative. The finer spokesman,

410
00:20:05,799 --> 00:20:08,200
a guy named Robert Gardner Terrell. He comes out with

411
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this completely different explanation.

412
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Speaker 1: And this is the same guy who owned one of

413
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the properties that was raided, right and the one connection

414
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to that CIA contractor.

415
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Speaker 2: The very same and he insists the group is made

416
00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:22,319
up of rational people, that they are not devil worshipers

417
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or child molesters.

418
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Speaker 1: So what was his explanation for the incredibly disturbing photos.

419
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Speaker 2: He said it was all a big misunderstanding. He claimed

420
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the photos were just documenting a hands on educational experience

421
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for the kids.

422
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Speaker 1: An educational experience.

423
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Speaker 2: He said they were teaching the children where their food

424
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comes from by having them participate in the butchering and

425
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preparation of goats for them to eat. He actually called

426
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it a delightful activity.

427
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Speaker 1: That is the whole case in a nutshell, isn't it.

428
00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:55,799
This bizarre, almost folksy, eccentric defense for evidence that looks deeply,

429
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deeply sinister.

430
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Speaker 2: Exactly on one side you have law enforcement seeing abuse.

431
00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:03,680
On the other you have the defense saying, oh, you're

432
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just misunderstanding our quirky lifestyle. And that ambiguity is what

433
00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:08,920
allowed the whole thing to spiral.

434
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Speaker 1: So the evidence they found paints this picture of an

435
00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:14,880
organization with two completely irreconcilable faces.

436
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:18,359
Speaker 2: Yes, they were Taoist philosophical seekers who were also a

437
00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:22,480
high tech group with financial secrecy, global contacts and detailed

438
00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:25,440
plans for kidnapping children, and those two things just don't

439
00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:28,519
fit together unless there was a third party involved, someone

440
00:21:28,559 --> 00:21:30,720
providing the infrastructure and the protection.

441
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Speaker 1: And that leads us straight into the shadow government angle

442
00:21:34,559 --> 00:21:38,799
the alleged CIA intervention, because with all this evidence, you'd

443
00:21:38,799 --> 00:21:41,880
expect a massive, open and shut criminal case.

444
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:46,160
Speaker 2: Instead, the whole thing just pivoted almost overnight. It went

445
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from a criminal investigation to a classified national security issue.

446
00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:53,039
Speaker 1: The allegation that the investigation was suppressed is the real

447
00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:55,960
core of this whole mystery, and it's all laid out

448
00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:57,319
in those custom service reports.

449
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Speaker 2: Special Agent Martinez alleged pretty explicitly that an informant inside

450
00:22:01,799 --> 00:22:04,599
the federal government told him the investigation had become a

451
00:22:04,839 --> 00:22:08,839
CIA internal matter and that it was now classified secret.

452
00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:12,519
Speaker 1: Just that classification alone tells you that this was about

453
00:22:12,519 --> 00:22:13,759
way more than child abuse.

454
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Speaker 2: But it went even further. Martinez claimed that the FBI's

455
00:22:17,519 --> 00:22:21,000
Foreign Counterintelligence Division, that's a branch that stops foreign spies

456
00:22:21,039 --> 00:22:23,880
from operating in the US, gave a direct order to

457
00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:25,640
the DC Metropolitan Police.

458
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Speaker 1: What is the order?

459
00:22:26,599 --> 00:22:29,079
Speaker 2: They told the DC Police not to tell the FBI's

460
00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:32,240
own Washington Field office about any new developments in the case.

461
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Speaker 1: Hold on, So one part of the FBI is actively

462
00:22:35,279 --> 00:22:39,039
blocking another part of the FBI from getting information on

463
00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:41,559
a major criminal case happening in its own city.

464
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Speaker 2: It's an incredible procedural move. It effectively walled off the evidence.

465
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It paralyzed the criminal side of the investigation by turning

466
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it into this turf war that was all about secrecy.

467
00:22:53,039 --> 00:22:55,960
And this allegation was so serious it eventually made its

468
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:57,799
way to Congress in nineteen ninety three.

469
00:22:58,279 --> 00:23:01,160
Speaker 1: So the big question is why, what was the basis

470
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:03,279
for the CIA to get involved at all? We know

471
00:23:03,319 --> 00:23:05,640
about Marion Petty's family connections.

472
00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:07,640
Speaker 2: His wife and son. Yeah, but there was also a direct,

473
00:23:07,759 --> 00:23:11,200
confirmed corporate link between the Finders and the agency.

474
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Speaker 1: Through that contractor Future Enterprises, Inc. Or FBI.

475
00:23:14,839 --> 00:23:17,799
Speaker 2: Right, the CIA themselves confirmed this. They admitted they sent

476
00:23:17,839 --> 00:23:20,440
their own employees to FI for computer training in the

477
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:24,359
nineteen eighties. And who was employed by the CIA contractor.

478
00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,920
Speaker 1: Robert Gardner Terrell, the Finder spokesman.

479
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:29,279
Speaker 2: And he worked there until February nineteen eighty seven, the

480
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,039
exact same month as the arrests in Tallahassee.

481
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:36,720
Speaker 1: The timing is just it's too perfect. A key member

482
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,599
of the Finders leaves his job at a CIA contracted

483
00:23:39,599 --> 00:23:43,480
computer firm at the very moment his organization gets busted

484
00:23:43,519 --> 00:23:44,440
for child procurement.

485
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:47,960
Speaker 2: It provides a very plausible link in the mid eighties

486
00:23:48,079 --> 00:23:52,119
computer tech was exploding. Agencies like the CIA would have

487
00:23:52,319 --> 00:23:56,599
absolutely relied on contractors like FI for specialized training in

488
00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,559
things like secure communications or database management.

489
00:23:59,799 --> 00:24:01,720
Speaker 1: This is where the story splits again. You have the

490
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,319
official version and then you have what's in the customs reports.

491
00:24:04,519 --> 00:24:07,079
Speaker 2: The official CIA story is that FBI was just a

492
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:09,480
normal contractor and Terrell was just a guy who worked

493
00:24:09,519 --> 00:24:11,920
there for a little while, simple as that. But the

494
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:17,079
customs reports contain this unconfirmed but absolutely explosive claim, which

495
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,319
is that the CIA admitted to owning the Finder's organization

496
00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,119
as a front for a domestic computer training operation, but

497
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:24,240
that it had gone bad.

498
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:27,160
Speaker 1: Wait an admission that they owned it, but that it

499
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,319
went bad. That is the single most incredible piece of

500
00:24:30,319 --> 00:24:31,720
information in this whole case.

501
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:35,200
Speaker 2: If it's true, it changes everything. It would mean the

502
00:24:35,279 --> 00:24:38,720
Finder started as some kind of sanctioned CIA front, maybe

503
00:24:38,759 --> 00:24:42,720
to train agents, maybe to provide cover for operations, but

504
00:24:42,799 --> 00:24:47,799
that Marion Petty's private intelligence game spun out of control.

505
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:51,359
Speaker 1: So the group went rogue. It started using the skills

506
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:54,279
and the cover the CIA gave them to do things

507
00:24:54,279 --> 00:24:57,119
the agency could never approve of, like what was described

508
00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:59,119
in those child procurement manuals.

509
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,200
Speaker 2: And suddenly pet 's own weird claims that he was

510
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,640
investigating the CIA, that he ran a private intelligence game.

511
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:09,680
They start to sound less like paranoia and more like, well,

512
00:25:10,079 --> 00:25:12,000
like he was telling some version of the truth.

513
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:14,640
Speaker 1: But the CIA's public response was the complete opposite. They

514
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:16,759
didn't just deny it, they were aggressive.

515
00:25:16,319 --> 00:25:18,759
Speaker 2: About it, oh, totally. The CIA spokesman at the time,

516
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:23,279
David Christian, he called the charges ridiculous, outrageous, a nothing burger.

517
00:25:23,599 --> 00:25:26,519
He insisted FBI was a legitimate company and the only

518
00:25:26,559 --> 00:25:28,799
connection was Terrell's brief employment.

519
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:31,519
Speaker 1: He even said, this is one of the weirdest we've heard.

520
00:25:31,559 --> 00:25:34,359
Speaker 2: Which is almost funny. You know, by trying to dismiss

521
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:36,640
it so completely, they just made it look more suspicious.

522
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:40,039
When you have their flat public denial on one side

523
00:25:40,519 --> 00:25:45,160
and these detailed customs reports about secret classifications and jurisdictional

524
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,039
blocking on the other, it forces you.

525
00:25:47,079 --> 00:25:49,680
Speaker 1: To choose a side, which is the foundation of any

526
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,519
good conspiracy theory. The very fact that the CIA was

527
00:25:52,559 --> 00:25:55,519
forced to address this on a national level years later

528
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:58,480
just shows you how powerful these allegations were.

529
00:25:58,599 --> 00:26:02,799
Speaker 2: So you have this mountain of truly disturbing evidence procurement manuals,

530
00:26:02,839 --> 00:26:08,039
international telexes, weird rituals, and these deep intelligence connections.

531
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,960
Speaker 1: And then the entire investigation just stops. It hits a

532
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:11,559
brick wall.

533
00:26:11,759 --> 00:26:14,880
Speaker 2: It's stunning how fast it ended. By late March nineteen

534
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,000
eighty seven, so that's only six weeks after the Tallahassee arrest,

535
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,880
Florida dropped all the charges against Amerman and Holwell and.

536
00:26:21,799 --> 00:26:23,640
Speaker 1: The reason was insufficient evidence.

537
00:26:23,839 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 2: Insufficient evidence for prosecution. And at the same time, the

538
00:26:26,759 --> 00:26:29,359
FEDS wrap up their big investigation and announce they found

539
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:31,000
no evidence of any criminal activity.

540
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:33,599
Speaker 1: Okay, that is the part that makes no sense. How

541
00:26:33,599 --> 00:26:37,279
can they find no evidence of criminal activity when the

542
00:26:37,319 --> 00:26:41,200
police literally seized manuals on how to kidnap people and

543
00:26:41,279 --> 00:26:43,319
telex is ordering the purchase of children.

544
00:26:43,759 --> 00:26:46,960
Speaker 2: Well, it could be a few things. Legally, the evidence

545
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,839
from the DC raids might have been challenged in court,

546
00:26:50,039 --> 00:26:54,240
you know, on procedural grounds. The finders were clearly very

547
00:26:54,279 --> 00:26:55,839
savvy about their legal rights.

548
00:26:55,839 --> 00:26:57,519
Speaker 1: The silence card exactly.

549
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:01,400
Speaker 2: And there's a big difference between having documents that plan

550
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:05,480
a crime and proving that crime actually happened. It's incredibly

551
00:27:05,519 --> 00:27:07,319
hard to prove active trafficking.

552
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:08,720
Speaker 1: And so the public story just completely flipped.

553
00:27:08,839 --> 00:27:11,359
Speaker 2: It did a one to eighty. The DC Police Chief

554
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,640
Maurice Turner, he goes public and says his department found

555
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:18,839
no evidence of wrongdoing. He completely downplayed the whole ritual angle,

556
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,039
saying a photograph can paint one thousand and one pictures,

557
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,359
basically implying it was just people butchering a goat for dinner.

558
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 1: And what happened to the kids.

559
00:27:26,759 --> 00:27:29,440
Speaker 2: They were returned to their biological mothers, and the mothers

560
00:27:29,519 --> 00:27:31,759
confirmed they were members of the group and that they

561
00:27:31,759 --> 00:27:34,519
had willingly given the children over to the men's care.

562
00:27:34,599 --> 00:27:38,359
Speaker 1: Which reinforces that official narrative. Yeah, they're not criminals, They're

563
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:40,480
just a weird family with a different lifestyle.

564
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:44,200
Speaker 2: But the damage was done, the initial shock, the mystery

565
00:27:44,279 --> 00:27:48,440
of why the case was dropped, the intelligence connection. It

566
00:27:48,559 --> 00:27:52,440
left this permanent stain. Sociologically, the case is now seen

567
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:56,279
as this like textbook example of the nineteen eighty satanic panic.

568
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,599
Speaker 1: That context is so important. The whole culture was prime

569
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:03,319
tol even secret cults doing ritual abuse. So the goat

570
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:05,880
photos in the word cult just lit a match.

571
00:28:06,319 --> 00:28:08,839
Speaker 2: But maybe the more important legacy of the Finder's case

572
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:11,200
is that it became a kind of patient zero for

573
00:28:11,279 --> 00:28:13,920
all these later, more modern conspiracy theories.

574
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,160
Speaker 1: That's a really good point. It's this specific toxic mix

575
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:21,200
of alleged child abuse, a cult stuff, and a confirmed

576
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:23,559
link to a government intelligence agency.

577
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,359
Speaker 2: It created the template. It's the blueprint for later conspiracy

578
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,640
theories about intelligence agency is being involved in child exploitation,

579
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,640
from Pizzagate to some of the stuff around Jeffrey Epstein.

580
00:28:33,319 --> 00:28:35,960
The Finder's case proved that the idea was plausible enough

581
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,119
for people to believe even if it couldn't be proven

582
00:28:38,119 --> 00:28:38,759
in a courtroom.

583
00:28:38,799 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 1: And the story just won't die. It keeps coming back.

584
00:28:41,559 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 2: It does. In twenty nineteen, the FBI released hundreds of

585
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:48,079
declassified documents about the Finders, and the reason they did

586
00:28:48,119 --> 00:28:50,680
it was because it was one of the most requested

587
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:52,920
topics on their public records website, the Vault.

588
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 1: So for decades the public has been demanding answers.

589
00:28:56,279 --> 00:28:59,359
Speaker 2: Constant pressure, and the files themselves confirmed the group was

590
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:03,160
under surveyor for years. They were being monitored under classifications

591
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:08,559
like violent crime organizations and most tellingly, foreign encounter intelligence

592
00:29:08,599 --> 00:29:09,640
foreign counterintelligence.

593
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,440
Speaker 1: So even the FBI didn't see them as just a

594
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:13,839
weird domestic cult.

595
00:29:14,039 --> 00:29:18,839
Speaker 2: No, the files detail a sophisticated financial operation, the bank secrecy,

596
00:29:19,039 --> 00:29:22,519
the movement of huge amounts of money, like that briefcase

597
00:29:22,559 --> 00:29:25,440
with two million dollars in land deeds. The FBI took

598
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:26,960
them very seriously.

599
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,039
Speaker 1: And I'm sure those twenty nineteen files are heavily.

600
00:29:28,759 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 2: Redacted oh massive reactions, which only adds to the mystery.

601
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:36,119
It just confirms that there are still deep institutional secrets

602
00:29:36,119 --> 00:29:37,119
surrounding this case.

603
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,240
Speaker 1: So when you synthesize all of it, what's so striking

604
00:29:40,319 --> 00:29:43,519
is that contradiction we started with. Petty creates this whole

605
00:29:43,599 --> 00:29:48,319
psychological world for his followers based on self discovery and spontaneity,

606
00:29:48,599 --> 00:29:50,359
you know, being the Taoist stroller.

607
00:29:50,519 --> 00:29:53,279
Speaker 2: But at the same time he gives them high tech communications,

608
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:58,119
bank secrecy protocols, and instructions for committing felonies. It really

609
00:29:58,119 --> 00:30:00,880
makes you wonder if this group wasn't just a commune, but.

610
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:03,319
Speaker 1: Some kind of prototype, a prototype for what.

611
00:30:03,559 --> 00:30:07,039
Speaker 2: For a new kind of clandestine operative, one that blends

612
00:30:07,119 --> 00:30:11,599
this radical New Age philosophy with really high level operational security.

613
00:30:12,119 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 1: That is precisely the ambiguity, isn't it. The Finders just

614
00:30:15,319 --> 00:30:18,599
refused to be one simple thing. They were a bizarre

615
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:22,960
social experiment that was appallingly neglectful to children.

616
00:30:22,559 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 2: And at the same time they had the tools and

617
00:30:24,519 --> 00:30:27,880
the documented plans of an international criminal network, and the

618
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:30,519
fact that the intelligence community had a contract with one

619
00:30:30,519 --> 00:30:33,039
of them, and that the investigation was allegedly shut down

620
00:30:33,079 --> 00:30:37,200
by the FBI's Foreign Counterintelligence Division. It means the question

621
00:30:37,279 --> 00:30:39,319
isn't if the CIA knew about them. They did.

622
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 1: The question is how much control did they have. Were

623
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,400
they actively using them or just passively tolerating all of

624
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:47,000
their highly illegal adventures.

625
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 2: It's a case where the official answer nothing to see

626
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:54,519
here is completely unsatisfying. It ensures that those details from

627
00:30:54,519 --> 00:30:58,279
the cised documents, the procurement manuals, the Hong Kong telex,

628
00:30:58,319 --> 00:31:02,839
the secret classification we will forever suggests something much much

629
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:03,799
bigger was going on.

630
00:31:04,359 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 1: The Finder's case is just a perfect example of what

631
00:31:06,519 --> 00:31:10,759
happens when the secrecy of a really unconventional group crashes

632
00:31:10,799 --> 00:31:13,400
into the secrecy of government intelligence agencies.

633
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 2: The truth just gets lost in the middle, It gets

634
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,279
permanently obscured, and all you're left with is the tension

635
00:31:18,319 --> 00:31:22,119
between the public denials and these heavily redacted government reports.

636
00:31:22,319 --> 00:31:24,799
Speaker 1: So we'll leave you with this to think about, considering

637
00:31:24,839 --> 00:31:28,440
Marian Petty's confirmed family ties to the CIA in Air America,

638
00:31:28,839 --> 00:31:31,039
his own claim that he was running a private intelligence

639
00:31:31,079 --> 00:31:34,960
game since before the USS even existed, and the documented

640
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,519
fact that his group was tied to a CI contractor

641
00:31:38,519 --> 00:31:40,599
What level of involvement do you think the US intelligence

642
00:31:40,599 --> 00:31:44,119
community really had with the Finders? Was knowing tolerance or

643
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:46,680
was it active utilization? Let us know what stands out

644
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:47,960
to you in this very thrilling thread