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<v Speaker 1>If you keep this up, John.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't get it.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm honestly well.

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<v Speaker 2>Whiskey, come and take pains, all right, oh whiskey. Why

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<v Speaker 2>think alone when you can drink it all in with

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<v Speaker 2>Ricochet's three Whiskey Happy Hour. Join your bartenders, Steve Hayward,

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<v Speaker 2>John You and the International Woman of Mystery, Lucretia, where

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<v Speaker 2>they slaps it opp and David, ain't you easy on

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<v Speaker 2>the should taps? Gotta give me that whiskey? All right,

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<v Speaker 2>here we go, folks. It's the three Whiskey Happy Hour,

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<v Speaker 2>our third time out on Substack. We're working on the

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<v Speaker 2>lighting and the sound and all the other things, and

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<v Speaker 2>you know, we're learning by doing and we'll get better.

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<v Speaker 2>But joined as usual by Lucretia, the International Woman a Mystery.

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<v Speaker 2>John You often an undisclosed and nondescript office somewhere in Texas.

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<v Speaker 2>I think texts in Texas. I'm out here in California.

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<v Speaker 2>Uh and uh so, first of all, John, Uh you

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<v Speaker 2>know last week we talked about this ridiculous, reckless, frivolous

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<v Speaker 2>lawsuit against McDonald's on the McRib. But our friends in

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<v Speaker 2>the Babylon Bee and here I'm jumping Lucretia's act. At

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<v Speaker 2>the end of every episode they have an item out

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<v Speaker 2>that McDonald's is going to offer unhappy meals to angry liberals,

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<v Speaker 2>which I think what took them from?

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<v Speaker 1>Right?

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<v Speaker 3>What's the toy that you get?

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<v Speaker 4>A little uh, a little red communist book they like,

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<v Speaker 4>one of these disappointing cheeseburger, single cheeseburger, small fries with

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<v Speaker 4>no one is not enough for anybody, And then you

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<v Speaker 4>know the communist manifesto.

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<v Speaker 2>Well probably or uh you maybe maybe you get a

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<v Speaker 2>paroled hamburgler. I don't know.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you remember when you were god awful part of

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<v Speaker 1>the country decided that happy meals were a bad thing,

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<v Speaker 1>and they they stopped offering them in San Francisco, and

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<v Speaker 1>then across said the country. You couldn't get French fries anymore,

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<v Speaker 1>and you couldn't get sodia, had to get milk and apples.

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<v Speaker 1>That I think you have a choice now, but could

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<v Speaker 1>be I think, Michelle.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, now I know it's a toy you could get

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<v Speaker 3>actually a real electric car. Since they're so expensive nobody

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<v Speaker 3>wants them anymore. There's a big yeah, no offense Lucretia.

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<v Speaker 1>None taken right, So now I wish I paid so much. Sorry,

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<v Speaker 1>go ahead, Steve.

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<v Speaker 2>I have to ask you John a cultural question before

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<v Speaker 2>we get to our serious topics for the week. What

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<v Speaker 2>people are still piling into the chat? In any case,

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<v Speaker 2>have you had the misfortune of seeing even the trailer

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<v Speaker 2>for the new Star Trek Starfleet Academy show.

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<v Speaker 3>It looks yet now?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well really it's awful. It's just awful. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>I only watched the form minute trailer and I thought,

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<v Speaker 2>if that's what you put in a trailer, it was

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<v Speaker 2>four minutes long. The whole thing must be unwatchably bad.

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<v Speaker 2>And apparently Paramount, which is producing a huge expense a

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<v Speaker 2>stream but the opening episode for free on YouTube and

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<v Speaker 2>it had a net of twelve hundred viewers. That's it.

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<v Speaker 1>That's fourteen, ste Well, we do better, I.

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<v Speaker 2>Know, well exactly, but it's kind of amazing that, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>it's it's a Holly Hunter who are normally like her

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<v Speaker 2>and most things she does, and the bad guys Paul Jamatti,

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<v Speaker 2>and you know they have to cost a lot to

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<v Speaker 2>get the two of them, and it's very produced.

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<v Speaker 1>Most of them are all sat Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Apparently, well here's here's a clue for you and listeners.

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<v Speaker 2>John the Klingon, the lead Klingon character. His name is Jayden.

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<v Speaker 2>How could a Klingon be named Jayden? I mean what,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, what next We're going to have a governor

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<v Speaker 2>named Gavin or something.

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<v Speaker 3>No humans should be named Jayden, not to mention Klingons.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh my god, No, I can't believe this. I can't

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<v Speaker 2>wait to get our friend Ken green On, who's hated

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<v Speaker 2>every single Star Trek pretty much since the very first one,

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<v Speaker 2>the original series, right the goat. My theory is is

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<v Speaker 2>that Kathleen Kennedy is responsible for this. She snuck in

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<v Speaker 2>to ruin the other great sci fi franchise. Because it

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't enough to ruin Star Wars. She has to ruin

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<v Speaker 2>Star Trek too, Right, Well, there is that There is

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<v Speaker 2>that great scene in the Big Bang Theory that's off

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<v Speaker 2>and on, you know, the the TikTok and stuff of

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<v Speaker 2>Dean Norris, who's you know, Agent Schrader and Breaking Bad,

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<v Speaker 2>where he plays an Air Force general and he's trying

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<v Speaker 2>to steal something from the brainy acts on the show

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<v Speaker 2>and he says, hey, man, it's not a big deal.

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<v Speaker 2>It's not like a big way of the plans of

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<v Speaker 2>the death Star from Star Trek and I can imagine

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<v Speaker 2>how that goes down? Right? All right?

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<v Speaker 1>You did? You did?

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<v Speaker 5>You didn't read the other babbel nbe about Star Wars

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<v Speaker 5>star Sorry sorry, new star Fleet vessel unable to reach

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<v Speaker 5>warp speed because Crewe is too fat.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, you know there is.

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<v Speaker 1>I know I'm the only lookers in person here.

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<v Speaker 2>But hey, the gory is up early.

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<v Speaker 1>Hey he was, yeah, okay, and it's eight in the morning.

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<v Speaker 1>He already said, yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, let's just add The last one was the South

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<v Speaker 2>Park guys did a wonderful attack on Kathleen Kennedy, where

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<v Speaker 2>you know, I forget what the characters are, right, but

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<v Speaker 2>one of them says, so here's how I fixed Star

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<v Speaker 2>Star Wars. You know, get a character, get a new character,

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<v Speaker 2>make them gay about right? Good stuff? All right?

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<v Speaker 3>Uh?

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<v Speaker 2>Although actually our first serious topic does have an element

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<v Speaker 2>of comedy to it. And is it is? Which was

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<v Speaker 2>the stupidest moment or comment of the week? And I

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<v Speaker 2>have three nominees and if you guys have more, please

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<v Speaker 2>bring them up. The first one was the a spouse

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<v Speaker 2>of the now deceased what's your name? In Minnesota who

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<v Speaker 2>apparently said right after the shooting. Well whatever, that's what

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<v Speaker 2>they call. The point is they said, well, okay, never

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<v Speaker 2>mind that. The point is this. She said to the

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<v Speaker 2>ice agents, why are you using real bullets? This is

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<v Speaker 2>they quoted right. The second one is this amazing moment

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<v Speaker 2>in a Senate hearing where a doctor was testifying on

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<v Speaker 2>behalf of transgenderism and Senator Hawley, not Senator Kennedy. Senator

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<v Speaker 2>Howley said can a man get pregnant? And the woman

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<v Speaker 2>would not answer, and he just kept asking and saying.

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<v Speaker 2>I thought, we're supposed to go by science. What does

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<v Speaker 2>science say? Does science say a man can get And

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<v Speaker 2>she would not answer. She kept changing the subject and

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<v Speaker 2>then say I don't like these politically motivated questions. I

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<v Speaker 2>mean it was pathetic. And then the third nine, oh no, no, Steve,

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<v Speaker 2>Steve Waite.

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<v Speaker 3>Before there was even a better quote from that hearing,

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<v Speaker 3>I thought, where she said, I know, these yes and

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<v Speaker 3>no questions are designed to div and I was like, yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>between yes and no?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, well you know yes and no, John, those

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<v Speaker 2>are binary questions. You can't right, that's right, Well, I

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<v Speaker 2>mean divide us. I mean, you know the polls show

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<v Speaker 2>this is one of those eighty twenty issues, right at least,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, seventy of Democrats think you shouldn't have transgender

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<v Speaker 2>women in women's sports. Right. That's actually the third item,

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<v Speaker 2>which is I don't have a good quote because there

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<v Speaker 2>are such long word salads. But it's sort of anything

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<v Speaker 2>that Katanji Brown Jackson.

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<v Speaker 1>Said, Taylor, your remarks to that, Steve Taylor.

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<v Speaker 2>My remarks to that. Well, the common theme here is,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, the left of leftist bubble is more impervious

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<v Speaker 2>than we thought. We really do have two Americas. There

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<v Speaker 2>is a footnote to that Supreme Court argument. I don't

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<v Speaker 2>know if we want to spend a lot of time

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<v Speaker 2>on it or not, but one of the advocates for

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<v Speaker 2>the transgender athletes brought up to Justice Gore such apparently,

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<v Speaker 2>or at least he responded the fact that back in

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<v Speaker 2>the sixties, the Supreme Court ruled in a case call

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<v Speaker 2>let me find it here Boutellier versus Immigration Naturalization Service.

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<v Speaker 2>That's kind of funny. And what they said is that

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<v Speaker 2>the Court held that the Immigration and Nationality Act of

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen fifty two could exclude psychopathic personalities, which was clearly

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<v Speaker 2>intended to include homosexuals. And I thought, and then she said, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, that wasn't your fault. That's not this court,

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<v Speaker 2>and Justice Gorsuch I think blundered a bit and says, well,

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<v Speaker 2>thank you for that, because I think what the advocate

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<v Speaker 2>someone for the ACOU I think was trying to do

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<v Speaker 2>was two things. One, in a subtle way, try to

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<v Speaker 2>appeal to the line of reasoning Gorsuch used in the

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<v Speaker 2>boss Stock case that still has us all scratched in

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<v Speaker 2>your heads. And second, I think there's a historicist document here,

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<v Speaker 2>which is, you know, if you guys rule the wrong way,

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<v Speaker 2>fifty years from now, historians are going to look back

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<v Speaker 2>on what bigots you people are. I think it was

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<v Speaker 2>that that sort of progress presumption notion, and my response

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<v Speaker 2>to it, and I think Justice Corsus's response should have been, was, well,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, we keep hearing we should follow the science.

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<v Speaker 2>Back in nineteen sixty seven, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual

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<v Speaker 2>the DSM classified homosexuality as a mental illness. So you

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<v Speaker 2>wants to follow science. That was the consensus of the

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<v Speaker 2>science fifty years ago. So why are you in telling

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<v Speaker 2>us now to follow science? What does science today's say?

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe not a legal question, but it seems to me

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<v Speaker 2>an embarrassment to that very unsubtle and I think weak argument.

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<v Speaker 1>It would be an embarrassment if you didn't have doctor

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<v Speaker 1>Burma the face missus science, miss miss science. Sorry, like Fauci,

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<v Speaker 1>miss science. She doesn't care what science says, and neither

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<v Speaker 1>do any of those other minguella and sort of physicians.

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<v Speaker 1>I want to point one about one thing about the

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<v Speaker 1>Supreme Court hearings. And this is not original to me.

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<v Speaker 1>I heard several people say it, including including Dana Perino,

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<v Speaker 1>whom you know I otherwise cannot stand anything about her.

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<v Speaker 1>But she was right on this way. Oh stand voices

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<v Speaker 1>like fingernails on a chalk bowarl anyway, but she was

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<v Speaker 1>absolutely right about this when she said, you know what's

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<v Speaker 1>wrong with this whole thing is why in the world

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<v Speaker 1>is the Supreme Court taking up such nonsense. And you know,

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<v Speaker 1>there's an argument to be made that the Supreme Court

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<v Speaker 1>could have allowed those laws. They are state laws. They

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<v Speaker 1>could have just allowed them to stand. But you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the idea that we're talking about CIS gender or CIS

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<v Speaker 1>women at the Supreme Court, I mean, they should have

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<v Speaker 1>just kicked those people out and said you're too stupid

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<v Speaker 1>and irrelevant to be here. I'm done with this whole thing.

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<v Speaker 1>I am not a CIS woman. I'm a woman. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>proud of it. I can identify what a woman is,

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<v Speaker 1>which means I am more qualified for the Supreme Court

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<v Speaker 1>than you know who, Well, well there.

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<v Speaker 2>Are I don't know if you want to jump in here, John.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, there were a couple of astonishing moments in

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<v Speaker 2>the oral argument. One is Justice Toledo with a you know,

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<v Speaker 2>Mike drop moment saying, how are we going to tell?

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<v Speaker 2>First of all, the asou lawyer says, what's your definition

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<v Speaker 2>of sex? And he said, we do not have one

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<v Speaker 2>for the court, and Liedo says sensibly, well, then how

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<v Speaker 2>are we going to make a determination of sexual discrimination

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<v Speaker 2>is taking place if we don't have a definition of sex.

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<v Speaker 2>Anybody who's ever read a statute knows you begin with

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<v Speaker 2>a whole lot of definitions to make the application of

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<v Speaker 2>statutes precise. And this is just amazing. I can only

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<v Speaker 2>conclude that they brought this case hoping that there would

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<v Speaker 2>be a wedge, because right, it's about Ah, here's the

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<v Speaker 2>other thing that's amazing to me. It's they're trying to say, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, the person in question here began hormone treatments,

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<v Speaker 2>hormone suppressors, puberty blockers, I think at the age of eight,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think the question should be why is the

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<v Speaker 2>parent not being arrested for child abuse for doing something

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<v Speaker 2>like that? Right, I mean, it's just astounding to me.

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<v Speaker 2>It wasn't the legal question presented there but that and

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<v Speaker 2>the idea was, well, if someone has puberty blockers and

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<v Speaker 2>they don't develop you know, sort of male musculature until

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<v Speaker 2>they're teenagers, then shouldn't that person be allowed to compete

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<v Speaker 2>in women's sports. They're trying to create this little exception

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<v Speaker 2>that could then be expanded, I think, is what's going on.

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<v Speaker 2>But by the way, I mean again, the science on

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<v Speaker 2>this shows that newborn infants, you know, a newborn male,

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<v Speaker 2>will have like twenty five percent more rip strength. This

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<v Speaker 2>must at birth over your average baby hurl. Right, So

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<v Speaker 2>it's not something that just happens. Okay, I don't need

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<v Speaker 2>to persuade you of these differences, but apparently you do.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, no, well, there's some very well another interesting.

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<v Speaker 2>Thing that everrose.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, so one thing is if you just listen to

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<v Speaker 3>the oral argument by the government and the States, you

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<v Speaker 3>could tell that the you know that these the transgender

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<v Speaker 3>were going to lose. None of the conservative justices basically

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<v Speaker 3>had any questions over the government, right, Like I can't

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<v Speaker 3>even remember having asking any and they were all over

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<v Speaker 3>of course the ACLU and but the other interesting exchange

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<v Speaker 3>I thought was they didn't want to say that there

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<v Speaker 3>were differences between the sexes. So, if I remember correctly,

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<v Speaker 3>under some of Justice Elita's questions, one of the advocates

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<v Speaker 3>for the transgender students said, well, what really should matter

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<v Speaker 3>is the testosterone level, right, So rather than separating athletes

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<v Speaker 3>by sex, you should just group them I guess by testosterone, right,

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<v Speaker 3>and that every student should. It sounds like they would

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<v Speaker 3>want every student who plays a sport to have a

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<v Speaker 3>testosterone test to decide which league they get to play in,

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<v Speaker 3>because it can't be sex that distinguishes, right the leaites.

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<v Speaker 3>If you carry that logic to its natural end, you

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<v Speaker 3>can't have men and women's sports at all. The theory

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<v Speaker 3>would be there's they would want to say some constitutional

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<v Speaker 3>to actually have girls soccer or girls basketball. You can

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<v Speaker 3>only have low testoster on soccer and high testoster right,

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<v Speaker 3>that's what arguments yeah point whether yeah, And I wonder

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<v Speaker 3>whether feminists from the you know, sixties through the two

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<v Speaker 3>thousands would agree with this because it wasn't. One of

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<v Speaker 3>their right great missions was to have you know, women's

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<v Speaker 3>sports with integrity. That could have you that it would

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<v Speaker 3>be women competing like women. And I thought that was

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<v Speaker 3>supposed to be, you know, because of title nine, one

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<v Speaker 3>of the great achievements of Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>All right, let's before you go on, Steve, I want

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<v Speaker 1>to break I want to mess up your your big

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<v Speaker 1>picture analogies here or whatever you called it, and say

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<v Speaker 1>that I have one more addition to the stupid comment

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<v Speaker 1>of the week. It might even take the cake, but

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<v Speaker 1>it's very just appointing to me for reasons I'll mention

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<v Speaker 1>in a moment, and that is Candace Owens has said

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<v Speaker 1>that what's really happening with Charlie Kirk is that he

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<v Speaker 1>is a time traveler, much like what happens in The Matrix,

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<v Speaker 1>and the Matrix decided something. Of course I didn't listen

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<v Speaker 1>to it, and that accordingly, they decided to take him

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<v Speaker 1>out because of something something. Anyways, I don't know if

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<v Speaker 1>that makes if she's on the left of the right anymore.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know, but that has to be the dumbest

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<v Speaker 1>comment of the week number one and on a podcast,

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<v Speaker 1>and so number two Lucretia never gets to where a

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<v Speaker 1>conspiracy theory had Again I'm a piper compared to Candace Owens.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, all right, let's take a quick ad break and

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<v Speaker 2>we'll get on too topic number two right after these

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<v Speaker 2>messages from sponsors. All right, our second topic today is

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<v Speaker 2>Minnesota and the Insurrection Act. Some weird things have been happening.

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<v Speaker 2>So first Governor Waltz and then Governor Newsom out here

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<v Speaker 2>in California kind of walking back from the precipice of

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<v Speaker 2>where they were seventy two hours ago. It was spitting

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<v Speaker 2>defiance and all the rest of that. Trump may have

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<v Speaker 2>talked to both of them on the phone. There's some

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<v Speaker 2>accounts of this. But a question for you, John, then

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<v Speaker 2>is somewhat more theoretical because Trump did say, by the way,

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<v Speaker 2>Friday morning, that he does not think he's going to

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<v Speaker 2>need the Insurrection Act. So maybe somebody's blinking, I'm not sure,

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<v Speaker 2>But the theoretical question is do you think the conditions

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<v Speaker 2>on the ground justify it? And then, more to the point,

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<v Speaker 2>could Trump under the Insurrection Act direct federal marshals to

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<v Speaker 2>arrest Governor Waltz and Mayor Frey of mini acts to

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<v Speaker 2>their incitements and for their obstruction of federal operations.

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<v Speaker 3>So one just based on what I've seen on TV,

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<v Speaker 3>I think this the conditions are satisfied. That doesn't matter.

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<v Speaker 3>It doesn't tell us whether to use your guy's favorite

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<v Speaker 3>word as a matter of prude and right where you

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<v Speaker 3>should use that power. And you know, of course, when

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<v Speaker 3>I say prudence, I really just may cost benefit analysis

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<v Speaker 3>good board. The Insurrection Act, by his terms, says you

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<v Speaker 3>know three it gives he says, you can the president.

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<v Speaker 3>This is a power given to the president by Congress.

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<v Speaker 3>So it's not even Trump saying he has the constitutional

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<v Speaker 3>power on his own to do this. It allows the

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<v Speaker 3>president to call out the troops domestically for three purposes,

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<v Speaker 3>an insurrection, an invasion, or And this is the part

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<v Speaker 3>that is more open ended and I think fits these conditions,

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<v Speaker 3>is when there are conspiracies or combinations or groups that

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<v Speaker 3>are trying to block the enforcement of federal law. So

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<v Speaker 3>it's called the Insurrection Act. But the third condition is

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<v Speaker 3>it can includes many more cases than just insurrection. And

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<v Speaker 3>you look at the videos, there are people who are

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<v Speaker 3>attacking federal LAWFA trying to kill them in some cases,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, beating them with shovels. I saw on Fox

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<v Speaker 3>News yesterday these groups trying to block federal agents from

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<v Speaker 3>going in and out of the main immigration facility in Minneapolis,

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<v Speaker 3>trying to prevent the agents from going out and enforcing

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<v Speaker 3>federal law. That seems to so usually, and this goes

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<v Speaker 3>to your second point, you don't need the Instruction Act

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<v Speaker 3>because usually state and local police make sure that people

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<v Speaker 3>aren't attacking federal agents and are clearing the area where

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<v Speaker 3>federal operations are going to occur. But here you have

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<v Speaker 3>a mayor and a governor in a sanctuary state that

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<v Speaker 3>have withdrawn police protection. You see those videos, especially at

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<v Speaker 3>night time, but even in the ones yesterday in front

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<v Speaker 3>of the federal facility, there's no state I don't see

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<v Speaker 3>any Minneapolis police officers. I don't see any Minnesota officers

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<v Speaker 3>trying to prevent people from attacking agents or trying to

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<v Speaker 3>block aid federal buildings. Seems to me that you've met

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<v Speaker 3>the conditions for triggering the Insurrection Act. Second question about

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<v Speaker 3>I don't know about arresting. Oh, go ahead, but.

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<v Speaker 1>Before you go on, will you please explain the a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit of the history of the Insurrection Act. You

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<v Speaker 1>did once before, but maybe not everybody. I think that's

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<v Speaker 1>very very appropriate to our discussion of it, is to

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<v Speaker 1>understand why and where it came from.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, I mean the.

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<v Speaker 3>Last use of it was the Rodney King riots in

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<v Speaker 3>nineteen ninety two, but before that it was used quite often.

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<v Speaker 3>I think I saw a figure that one third of

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<v Speaker 3>all presidents have used troops under the Insurrection Act. And

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<v Speaker 3>George Washington used troops under the Insurrection So the earliest

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<v Speaker 3>version goes back to the seventeen nineties, and it was

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<v Speaker 3>about calling out the militia and during conditions of not

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<v Speaker 3>just insurrection and invasion, but refusals to obey federal law.

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<v Speaker 3>And that was the Whiskey rebellion.

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<v Speaker 1>Right.

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<v Speaker 3>President Washington called out the malay to enforce a whiskey

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<v Speaker 3>tax in western Pennsylvania. And I think it's still the

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<v Speaker 3>only example where president as commander in chief led the

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<v Speaker 3>troops personally into the field and Washington showed up and

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<v Speaker 3>the rioters dispersed immediately when they heard Washington was coming.

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<v Speaker 3>But the major expansion of the Act comes during Reconstruction

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<v Speaker 3>because the ku Klux Klan and other white Southerners were

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<v Speaker 3>trying to take away the federal rights of freed slaves,

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<v Speaker 3>and so while under President Grant's administration, Congress expanded this

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<v Speaker 3>third prom of the Insurrection Act, where you can the

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<v Speaker 3>president can call out troops to enforce federal law. And

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<v Speaker 3>then I think the most notable invocations were under President

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<v Speaker 3>Eisenhower and Kennedy to enforce Brown versus Board of Education

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<v Speaker 3>against and this goes to Steve's other question against Southern

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<v Speaker 3>states and governors who are trying to stop integration from occurring.

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<v Speaker 3>And so I think this is why I don't don't

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<v Speaker 3>think it would happen, but I think, you know, I

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<v Speaker 3>think legally you could do it, but I don't think

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<v Speaker 3>it happened. Is even those Southern governors who used their

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<v Speaker 3>own state national guards to try to compeede racial desegregation,

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<v Speaker 3>they were never arrested and charged for federal crimes, even

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<v Speaker 3>though they were obviously committing an obstruction of federal law.

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<v Speaker 3>But what Eisenhower did is he took over those national

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<v Speaker 3>Guard units away from the state and turned them into

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<v Speaker 3>national units, sent them back to their houses, sent them home,

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<v Speaker 3>and then used the US military right. He used one

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<v Speaker 3>hundred and first airborne desegregated Southern schools under the Insurrection Act.

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<v Speaker 3>So how one of the question is, rather should Trump

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<v Speaker 3>go that far? Does he need to? But gosh, you

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<v Speaker 3>look at the conditions of Minneapolis and you see people

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<v Speaker 3>attacking federal agents and no state and local police officers

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<v Speaker 3>to be found. That's what the Instruction Act is for.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, okay, so I mean, of course it'd be a

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<v Speaker 2>political judgment about whether you should arrest Governor Waltz. But

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<v Speaker 2>a hypothetical is this. I mean, I think you can

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<v Speaker 2>find this in the newsreels. There's George Wallace. I think

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<v Speaker 2>it was the local police. I don't know if it

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<v Speaker 2>was Alabama National Guard, but standing in.

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<v Speaker 3>There was a national Guard. It was the national Guard.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay. But the point is is that when the federal

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<v Speaker 2>troops showed up with the students, he moved and allowed

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<v Speaker 2>them to proceed. So the hypothetical is what if Governor

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<v Speaker 2>Wallace had refused and told his officers to not move

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<v Speaker 2>and not allow the person in. Wouldn't then President Eisenhower

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<v Speaker 2>have been substruction ordering Yeah, okay, ordering the arrest substruction

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<v Speaker 2>Wallace's that's my Yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>So here's the thing about walt and this Guy Mayor

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<v Speaker 3>Jacob Fry Fry, I think.

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<v Speaker 1>So.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't think it's a federal crime for them to say,

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<v Speaker 3>you're on your own. We're not going to help you,

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<v Speaker 3>We're not going to protect you. If the federal government

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<v Speaker 3>wants to enforce immigration law, you know, good luck to

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<v Speaker 3>you have at it. That's not obstruction. If they are actually,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, using their police force and their resources to

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<v Speaker 3>help these right these protesters, rioters, that could be obstruction.

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<v Speaker 3>So is it anything I haven't seen any evidence to

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<v Speaker 3>that yet.

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<v Speaker 1>Is there a difference then, between a standdown order which

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<v Speaker 1>they have given to all of their local state and

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<v Speaker 1>local police stand down do not help if these people

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<v Speaker 1>are attacked, So what stand down we will not do

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<v Speaker 1>anything to help ICE and actively joining the crowd against ICE.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean that seems to be what you're saying.

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<v Speaker 3>I think that's the difference. Okay, yeah, I think that's

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<v Speaker 3>I think that. In fact, I think the Supreme Court

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<v Speaker 3>has said, and not in this violent of context, but

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<v Speaker 3>has said states have the right not to cooperate with

418
00:23:45.079 --> 00:23:45.920
<v Speaker 3>the federal government.

419
00:23:46.359 --> 00:23:46.960
<v Speaker 2>They have the right.

420
00:23:47.400 --> 00:23:51.599
<v Speaker 3>So these sanctuary cities, I don't think the cities and

421
00:23:51.680 --> 00:23:54.680
<v Speaker 3>states can block federal agents, but they don't have to

422
00:23:54.799 --> 00:23:58.359
<v Speaker 3>help the federal agents locate where aliens are either. They

423
00:23:58.400 --> 00:23:59.359
<v Speaker 3>can just be passive.

424
00:24:00.839 --> 00:24:03.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, okay, all right, let's yeah.

425
00:24:03.279 --> 00:24:05.680
<v Speaker 1>I think that's really stupid by the Supreme Court, by

426
00:24:05.720 --> 00:24:10.599
<v Speaker 1>the way, because I mean, think about in general terms.

427
00:24:10.799 --> 00:24:13.200
<v Speaker 1>Try to sorry, try to think about it in general

428
00:24:13.359 --> 00:24:17.039
<v Speaker 1>terms and say, do we really want Supreme Court opinions

429
00:24:17.079 --> 00:24:20.240
<v Speaker 1>that encourage a kind of It's one thing to encourage

430
00:24:20.359 --> 00:24:23.400
<v Speaker 1>the what Madison talks about in Federal's number fifty one.

431
00:24:23.480 --> 00:24:27.160
<v Speaker 1>You know, this government that fights against this government and

432
00:24:27.279 --> 00:24:30.039
<v Speaker 1>that gives us, you know, protection from tyranny. It's another

433
00:24:30.160 --> 00:24:32.960
<v Speaker 1>thing to say that law enforcement at the state and

434
00:24:33.039 --> 00:24:36.359
<v Speaker 1>local level can fight against the military at the federal level,

435
00:24:36.400 --> 00:24:41.079
<v Speaker 1>and that that somehow prevents some kind of denial of

436
00:24:41.160 --> 00:24:43.720
<v Speaker 1>people's rights. I mean, that seems to me to be

437
00:24:43.839 --> 00:24:47.000
<v Speaker 1>a recipe for civil war. But maybe I'm just being

438
00:24:47.079 --> 00:24:49.839
<v Speaker 1>too Oh well, sure, I.

439
00:24:49.839 --> 00:24:52.759
<v Speaker 3>Think that's probably right, but too I mean, think about

440
00:24:52.759 --> 00:24:55.440
<v Speaker 3>it in terms of your one of your favorite topics,

441
00:24:56.000 --> 00:24:59.440
<v Speaker 3>you know, anti ballums, slavery, and so I think one

442
00:24:59.519 --> 00:25:02.039
<v Speaker 3>reason that court says that you know, reaches this result.

443
00:25:02.119 --> 00:25:05.359
<v Speaker 3>They look back at the Fugitive Slave Act and under

444
00:25:05.400 --> 00:25:08.920
<v Speaker 3>their ruling. They're basically saying, you know, a Massachusetts and

445
00:25:09.000 --> 00:25:12.279
<v Speaker 3>New York doesn't have to help federal officers catch fugitive

446
00:25:12.319 --> 00:25:15.480
<v Speaker 3>slaves and return them back to slavery. If a federal

447
00:25:15.519 --> 00:25:18.200
<v Speaker 3>agent wants to do it, right, they connected to federal law.

448
00:25:18.519 --> 00:25:21.759
<v Speaker 3>But states don't have to cooperate. They can if they will,

449
00:25:21.960 --> 00:25:22.480
<v Speaker 3>but they don't.

450
00:25:22.599 --> 00:25:25.440
<v Speaker 2>Well, well, wait a minute, there's this distinction, John, Is

451
00:25:25.519 --> 00:25:27.359
<v Speaker 2>that you know, as Lincoln pointed out in his first

452
00:25:27.400 --> 00:25:31.599
<v Speaker 2>inaugural address, the original fugitive slave clause didn't say who

453
00:25:31.680 --> 00:25:35.160
<v Speaker 2>had the responsibility for returning Was it federal worst state responsibility?

454
00:25:35.200 --> 00:25:38.519
<v Speaker 2>The Constitution was ambiguous on this at best. Whereas as

455
00:25:38.599 --> 00:25:40.279
<v Speaker 2>you like to point out, and when we used to

456
00:25:40.319 --> 00:25:43.279
<v Speaker 2>flay you alive for this is when Governor Brewer in

457
00:25:43.359 --> 00:25:47.759
<v Speaker 2>Arizona and also Texas, right, I said, no, it's a

458
00:25:47.839 --> 00:25:51.920
<v Speaker 2>purely federal responsibility. The court, there's pretty clear that the constitutional,

459
00:25:52.079 --> 00:25:55.039
<v Speaker 2>the current constitutional reading of this is very much on

460
00:25:55.119 --> 00:25:58.119
<v Speaker 2>the side of Trump and Ice and against Governor Walls.

461
00:25:58.359 --> 00:26:01.640
<v Speaker 1>Well, let me for a second, just saying, John explained

462
00:26:01.680 --> 00:26:05.079
<v Speaker 1>that more than one occasion for which I probably received

463
00:26:05.160 --> 00:26:08.160
<v Speaker 1>the most negative comments about you ever. By the way, John,

464
00:26:08.519 --> 00:26:09.720
<v Speaker 1>but you did charge to.

465
00:26:09.839 --> 00:26:12.519
<v Speaker 3>Explain that's a race to the bottom, as we say,

466
00:26:12.680 --> 00:26:13.079
<v Speaker 3>it was.

467
00:26:13.319 --> 00:26:15.799
<v Speaker 1>Very much so. And this one I couldn't defend you

468
00:26:15.920 --> 00:26:18.960
<v Speaker 1>on because I don't still understand it myself. However, what

469
00:26:19.160 --> 00:26:22.480
<v Speaker 1>you used you used to provide an explanation for the

470
00:26:22.559 --> 00:26:27.839
<v Speaker 1>difference between a state deciding on a sanctuary city policy

471
00:26:28.359 --> 00:26:33.799
<v Speaker 1>and a state deciding to be at least as proactive,

472
00:26:33.920 --> 00:26:36.559
<v Speaker 1>if not more proactive than the federal government in stopping

473
00:26:36.599 --> 00:26:40.279
<v Speaker 1>a legal immigration And I never understood your argument, but

474
00:26:40.440 --> 00:26:43.119
<v Speaker 1>you did make it, and it's my fault I was.

475
00:26:44.039 --> 00:26:46.279
<v Speaker 3>I wasn't. No, no, I don't think I was making

476
00:26:46.319 --> 00:26:48.279
<v Speaker 3>the argument. I was just trying to describe what Arizona

477
00:26:48.400 --> 00:26:52.160
<v Speaker 3>versus United States says. And you know, Arizona versity United

478
00:26:52.200 --> 00:26:54.599
<v Speaker 3>States is the decision that says states are not allowed

479
00:26:54.599 --> 00:26:56.319
<v Speaker 3>to enforce immigration law, right.

480
00:26:58.160 --> 00:26:58.720
<v Speaker 2>Government can.

481
00:26:58.960 --> 00:27:03.519
<v Speaker 1>Well, is it not a failure to enforce immigration law?

482
00:27:03.680 --> 00:27:08.160
<v Speaker 1>Then if you are refusing ice detainers, if you are

483
00:27:08.279 --> 00:27:10.440
<v Speaker 1>refusing all of those things, is that if you are

484
00:27:10.519 --> 00:27:14.680
<v Speaker 1>allowing illegal immigrants to be in your state and in

485
00:27:14.880 --> 00:27:18.359
<v Speaker 1>all sorts of ways giving them sanctuary and the benefits

486
00:27:18.400 --> 00:27:23.720
<v Speaker 1>of your society, are you not then actually enforcing or

487
00:27:23.839 --> 00:27:28.319
<v Speaker 1>uninforcing immigration law. And how is that? How is that different?

488
00:27:28.680 --> 00:27:32.200
<v Speaker 3>So, so what the court has said is that state officers,

489
00:27:32.680 --> 00:27:34.960
<v Speaker 3>and they do this to protect the sovereignty of states.

490
00:27:35.839 --> 00:27:39.440
<v Speaker 3>In their view, is that state officers don't have any

491
00:27:39.519 --> 00:27:43.559
<v Speaker 3>responsibility to carry out federal law themselves. They don't have

492
00:27:43.759 --> 00:27:47.039
<v Speaker 3>to say don't. And they also say because if they do,

493
00:27:47.839 --> 00:27:50.519
<v Speaker 3>the presidents can't control them. You know, governor can say

494
00:27:50.640 --> 00:27:52.880
<v Speaker 3>I think federal law means this, so I'm going to

495
00:27:53.279 --> 00:27:57.359
<v Speaker 3>enforce congregation law this way. There's no way the president

496
00:27:57.440 --> 00:27:59.480
<v Speaker 3>can control him or her. And so the court is

497
00:27:59.519 --> 00:28:04.400
<v Speaker 3>also said, to preserve the president's monopoly over the take

498
00:28:04.480 --> 00:28:08.200
<v Speaker 3>care clause, we can't allow anyone to enforce federal law

499
00:28:08.200 --> 00:28:10.799
<v Speaker 3>who's not a federal officer. And that's what happened if

500
00:28:10.799 --> 00:28:14.680
<v Speaker 3>Arizona started catching illegal aliens itself, and well, but here

501
00:28:14.720 --> 00:28:17.359
<v Speaker 3>it's the border, then you have someone enforcing federal law

502
00:28:17.400 --> 00:28:19.920
<v Speaker 3>who's not a US officer, is not under the control

503
00:28:19.920 --> 00:28:20.519
<v Speaker 3>of the president.

504
00:28:21.039 --> 00:28:23.279
<v Speaker 2>I was trying to propose the inverse of that, which

505
00:28:23.400 --> 00:28:27.079
<v Speaker 2>is as states actually impeding the federal government from exercising

506
00:28:27.200 --> 00:28:29.559
<v Speaker 2>what has been described as their sole responsibility.

507
00:28:29.680 --> 00:28:32.680
<v Speaker 1>So that was okay, that's which I think sanctuary cities do,

508
00:28:33.160 --> 00:28:34.480
<v Speaker 1>by the way, I do.

509
00:28:35.240 --> 00:28:36.559
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, no, I mean do.

510
00:28:36.720 --> 00:28:39.240
<v Speaker 3>Look, the good example for lucretia is that judge in

511
00:28:39.319 --> 00:28:43.160
<v Speaker 3>Wisconsin who oh right, was hearing a case involving an

512
00:28:43.200 --> 00:28:47.079
<v Speaker 3>a legal alien and then she she tried to you know,

513
00:28:47.200 --> 00:28:49.960
<v Speaker 3>spirit the legal an away through a back door in

514
00:28:50.039 --> 00:28:53.359
<v Speaker 3>her courtroom that and prevent federal agents from final That's

515
00:28:53.359 --> 00:28:56.160
<v Speaker 3>obstruction by a state officer. And she's been properly.

516
00:28:56.519 --> 00:29:01.119
<v Speaker 1>Okay, well shot and freud for the lucreci Here for

517
00:29:01.160 --> 00:29:03.759
<v Speaker 1>a moment, you guys, is buddy Paul Klement, who joined

518
00:29:04.400 --> 00:29:08.039
<v Speaker 1>that legal team on behalf of that fat woman in Wisconsin,

519
00:29:08.720 --> 00:29:12.920
<v Speaker 1>lost big time, goss, big time. Now, the funny thing

520
00:29:13.000 --> 00:29:16.039
<v Speaker 1>is is that none of those big you know, TDS

521
00:29:16.240 --> 00:29:20.400
<v Speaker 1>Rhinos attorneys out there did this pro bono, and they're

522
00:29:20.440 --> 00:29:24.519
<v Speaker 1>out there begging for money from the public to continue

523
00:29:24.599 --> 00:29:28.799
<v Speaker 1>their appeals process and to pay their past pay bills.

524
00:29:29.200 --> 00:29:31.599
<v Speaker 2>They just want some of that sweet sorrows money. Man.

525
00:29:31.640 --> 00:29:33.839
<v Speaker 2>That's all. But we now are going to go to

526
00:29:33.960 --> 00:29:36.079
<v Speaker 2>a quick break for our sponsors and move on to

527
00:29:36.240 --> 00:29:38.400
<v Speaker 2>another topic because we can go on all day on

528
00:29:38.480 --> 00:29:41.240
<v Speaker 2>every single one of these so listeners will be right

529
00:29:41.319 --> 00:29:49.240
<v Speaker 2>back in a moment. All right, you guys, I am

530
00:29:49.279 --> 00:29:51.160
<v Speaker 2>going to skip to what I put on our outline

531
00:29:51.200 --> 00:29:55.160
<v Speaker 2>today as our fourth or fifth item with this heading,

532
00:29:55.200 --> 00:29:56.880
<v Speaker 2>because it works for the ones I'm skipping over, and

533
00:29:56.920 --> 00:29:59.519
<v Speaker 2>that we might come back to. There's the famous saying

534
00:29:59.559 --> 00:30:03.279
<v Speaker 2>of was the great Greek poet, that those whom the

535
00:30:03.319 --> 00:30:06.440
<v Speaker 2>gods would destroy they first make mad, which is my

536
00:30:06.519 --> 00:30:10.480
<v Speaker 2>field theory explanation for why Trump derangement syndrome is so great. Right,

537
00:30:10.920 --> 00:30:14.400
<v Speaker 2>Trump's driven them mad. But I have a very specific

538
00:30:14.519 --> 00:30:17.319
<v Speaker 2>question that gets in our sweet spot of political philosophy.

539
00:30:18.119 --> 00:30:20.960
<v Speaker 2>What does it mean for the left if America is

540
00:30:21.079 --> 00:30:24.480
<v Speaker 2>in fact the best regime as understood by the classics.

541
00:30:24.519 --> 00:30:27.039
<v Speaker 2>And let me explain what I mean by that. There's

542
00:30:27.079 --> 00:30:29.160
<v Speaker 2>this terrible book out right now. It's gotten a lot

543
00:30:29.200 --> 00:30:31.000
<v Speaker 2>of press, a lot of reviews, a lot of attention

544
00:30:31.200 --> 00:30:34.880
<v Speaker 2>from the Trump deranged in the media. It's Laura Field's book,

545
00:30:35.000 --> 00:30:38.640
<v Speaker 2>Furious Minds, you know, making somebody mad. They're furious now.

546
00:30:38.720 --> 00:30:40.440
<v Speaker 2>It's a book that, if you've heard about it is

547
00:30:40.480 --> 00:30:43.519
<v Speaker 2>an attack on three elements of the sort of trumpy right,

548
00:30:43.960 --> 00:30:47.279
<v Speaker 2>the national conservatives and that cons the post liberals, and

549
00:30:47.400 --> 00:30:49.640
<v Speaker 2>we talked about post liberals was it just last week?

550
00:30:49.680 --> 00:30:52.160
<v Speaker 2>I think? And then finally, you know our peeps, the

551
00:30:52.240 --> 00:30:55.519
<v Speaker 2>claire Monsters, although she calls them claire Monts, and she

552
00:30:55.960 --> 00:31:01.119
<v Speaker 2>obviously doesn't know where claire monsters please, and several things

553
00:31:01.160 --> 00:31:03.680
<v Speaker 2>about it. One of the things is I caught her

554
00:31:03.720 --> 00:31:05.759
<v Speaker 2>on a recent interview. I'm not going to read her book,

555
00:31:05.839 --> 00:31:07.720
<v Speaker 2>or maybe if they give me a free copy, I might,

556
00:31:07.839 --> 00:31:10.440
<v Speaker 2>but I caught her on one of her interviews saying, well,

557
00:31:10.599 --> 00:31:13.880
<v Speaker 2>you know what, these Claremont people, like Harry Jaffa, they

558
00:31:13.960 --> 00:31:16.839
<v Speaker 2>say America is the best regime and thus that there's

559
00:31:16.960 --> 00:31:20.160
<v Speaker 2>like no room for change or progress. And I thought, well,

560
00:31:20.400 --> 00:31:25.039
<v Speaker 2>that's comically wrong, first of all. Second of all, as Glenn,

561
00:31:25.279 --> 00:31:28.240
<v Speaker 2>our friend Glenn Elmers has spotted in a very excellent

562
00:31:28.279 --> 00:31:30.839
<v Speaker 2>review of the book, she made up a quote from

563
00:31:30.880 --> 00:31:33.799
<v Speaker 2>Jaffa that does not exist anywhere in Jaffa's work. So

564
00:31:34.079 --> 00:31:36.079
<v Speaker 2>she's fabricated something. And by the way, I think there

565
00:31:36.119 --> 00:31:40.160
<v Speaker 2>are other really alarming fabrications in the book. I'm going

566
00:31:40.200 --> 00:31:41.960
<v Speaker 2>to save that from now. We can go back to

567
00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:44.519
<v Speaker 2>it later. And so the point is, and I'm going

568
00:31:44.559 --> 00:31:47.400
<v Speaker 2>to open up a lucretie on this is I say,

569
00:31:47.559 --> 00:31:49.799
<v Speaker 2>is it bad news? For the left of America is

570
00:31:49.960 --> 00:31:54.319
<v Speaker 2>the best regime, because the best regime does not mean utopia.

571
00:31:55.160 --> 00:31:58.200
<v Speaker 2>And for the left, they're all about utopia. And there

572
00:31:58.279 --> 00:32:01.119
<v Speaker 2>you see again a very fundamental difference between the way

573
00:32:01.519 --> 00:32:04.920
<v Speaker 2>serious conservatives think about politics and regimes and the way

574
00:32:05.000 --> 00:32:09.039
<v Speaker 2>the left does so. Anyway, So, Lucretia, what you know

575
00:32:09.200 --> 00:32:13.359
<v Speaker 2>when if you can summarize briefly for listeners and for us,

576
00:32:13.519 --> 00:32:16.119
<v Speaker 2>and what did Jeff I mean by the best regime

577
00:32:16.279 --> 00:32:19.119
<v Speaker 2>and why does it foreclose what the left wants when

578
00:32:19.160 --> 00:32:20.279
<v Speaker 2>they talk about utopia.

579
00:32:21.119 --> 00:32:23.240
<v Speaker 1>Well, I'm gonna go sound like a little bit of

580
00:32:23.319 --> 00:32:25.599
<v Speaker 1>a broken record, Steve, and go back to the point

581
00:32:25.640 --> 00:32:28.319
<v Speaker 1>that first and foremost the founding fathers believed that there

582
00:32:28.480 --> 00:32:31.720
<v Speaker 1>was a human nature, that human nature could be known

583
00:32:32.319 --> 00:32:37.640
<v Speaker 1>with a reasonable amount of certainty, and a society and

584
00:32:37.759 --> 00:32:42.200
<v Speaker 1>a government could be built, especially a government, around that

585
00:32:43.440 --> 00:32:46.359
<v Speaker 1>understanding of human nature. And one of the things about

586
00:32:46.440 --> 00:32:50.440
<v Speaker 1>that human nature it's unchanging, but there are there's the

587
00:32:50.599 --> 00:32:54.559
<v Speaker 1>rational element to the human soul, something that we and

588
00:32:54.880 --> 00:32:58.400
<v Speaker 1>we partake in with the gods or God, the rational element,

589
00:32:58.839 --> 00:33:01.480
<v Speaker 1>and then there's the passion, which always get in the

590
00:33:01.559 --> 00:33:06.839
<v Speaker 1>way of our rationality. That's kind of the way to

591
00:33:07.039 --> 00:33:11.240
<v Speaker 1>simplified view of human nature that I think informs the

592
00:33:11.319 --> 00:33:14.680
<v Speaker 1>Founding Fathers. But what I can't I don't have time

593
00:33:14.720 --> 00:33:18.160
<v Speaker 1>to go into all the reasons that Jaffa says this

594
00:33:18.359 --> 00:33:21.079
<v Speaker 1>is the best regime, and I'm not sure that it

595
00:33:21.160 --> 00:33:24.359
<v Speaker 1>certainly was the best regime as it was founded. I'll

596
00:33:24.440 --> 00:33:26.720
<v Speaker 1>leave it at that for the moment. The point is

597
00:33:26.880 --> 00:33:32.519
<v Speaker 1>is that our Founding fathers put together a political system

598
00:33:32.759 --> 00:33:37.079
<v Speaker 1>that recognized both of those elements I just mentioned in

599
00:33:38.079 --> 00:33:43.079
<v Speaker 1>human nature in the human condition, and they accounted for them.

600
00:33:43.119 --> 00:33:47.440
<v Speaker 1>If you think about Madison's argument in the Federalist fifty one,

601
00:33:48.279 --> 00:33:51.200
<v Speaker 1>if men were angels, there would be no need for government.

602
00:33:51.279 --> 00:33:55.039
<v Speaker 1>If angels were to govern men, we would need neither

603
00:33:55.319 --> 00:33:57.880
<v Speaker 1>external nor internal controls like government. When you have a

604
00:33:57.920 --> 00:34:02.160
<v Speaker 1>situation where too men governing men, no angels, that's why

605
00:34:02.279 --> 00:34:06.839
<v Speaker 1>you need protections against tyranny. So the Left comes along

606
00:34:07.799 --> 00:34:11.239
<v Speaker 1>and they don't like these checks and balances, that's what

607
00:34:11.920 --> 00:34:14.239
<v Speaker 1>Madison is actually referring to. Their they don't like these

608
00:34:14.400 --> 00:34:18.400
<v Speaker 1>checks and balances. They don't like the idea of individual

609
00:34:18.480 --> 00:34:22.920
<v Speaker 1>autonomy or the maximum amount of freedom given to people

610
00:34:24.239 --> 00:34:27.480
<v Speaker 1>until they interfere with the rights of others. They don't

611
00:34:27.599 --> 00:34:30.159
<v Speaker 1>like this idea that there is a bit of an

612
00:34:30.239 --> 00:34:35.320
<v Speaker 1>India's idiosyncratic definition of happiness, not entirely, but another day

613
00:34:35.360 --> 00:34:38.159
<v Speaker 1>for that. And what they believe is that human beings

614
00:34:38.679 --> 00:34:44.320
<v Speaker 1>are a not necessarily they have evolved to the point

615
00:34:44.320 --> 00:34:48.119
<v Speaker 1>where they are no longer what's the opposite of angels, demons.

616
00:34:48.840 --> 00:34:53.000
<v Speaker 1>They can in fact be educated, thank you John Dewey,

617
00:34:53.519 --> 00:34:57.800
<v Speaker 1>Oh God, to the point where they can become you know,

618
00:34:57.880 --> 00:35:01.440
<v Speaker 1>good socialist members of society. Education to be all about

619
00:35:01.480 --> 00:35:05.199
<v Speaker 1>turning them into these perfect little citizens, and ultimately these

620
00:35:05.280 --> 00:35:12.119
<v Speaker 1>perfect little citizens become what would you say, propagandized brain lage.

621
00:35:12.159 --> 00:35:15.000
<v Speaker 1>I don't know, to do whatever it is these wonderful

622
00:35:15.039 --> 00:35:18.679
<v Speaker 1>elites who have only the good of society and this

623
00:35:18.960 --> 00:35:22.679
<v Speaker 1>utopian vision in mind. Our founding fathers never believed we'd

624
00:35:22.719 --> 00:35:26.559
<v Speaker 1>find utopia because we would always be dealing with the

625
00:35:27.760 --> 00:35:31.519
<v Speaker 1>faults of human nature. We could set up a system

626
00:35:31.599 --> 00:35:36.000
<v Speaker 1>that tried in every way possible to I want to

627
00:35:36.159 --> 00:35:39.559
<v Speaker 1>think about Jefferson's talk about the natural aerostory to allow

628
00:35:39.800 --> 00:35:42.760
<v Speaker 1>the best human beings, the most virtuous human beings, and

629
00:35:42.840 --> 00:35:45.960
<v Speaker 1>the most publican spirit, public spirited human beings to rise

630
00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:49.599
<v Speaker 1>to the top and be the governors, the rulers over us.

631
00:35:49.679 --> 00:35:52.599
<v Speaker 1>That we would choose, that's important, that we would choose.

632
00:35:53.719 --> 00:35:57.760
<v Speaker 1>But they didn't believe that there was any guaranteed, Like

633
00:35:58.239 --> 00:36:01.320
<v Speaker 1>Madison says, enlightened statesmen will not always be at the helm,

634
00:36:01.920 --> 00:36:06.000
<v Speaker 1>and so all of those checks and balances, all those

635
00:36:06.079 --> 00:36:09.639
<v Speaker 1>restraints on government that they built into the constitutional system.

636
00:36:10.079 --> 00:36:11.800
<v Speaker 1>The progressives came along and said, we don't want any

637
00:36:11.800 --> 00:36:13.559
<v Speaker 1>of those. We want to do what we want because

638
00:36:13.639 --> 00:36:18.159
<v Speaker 1>we're going to bring about utopia. Is that okay, Steve? Yeah,

639
00:36:18.199 --> 00:36:21.519
<v Speaker 1>I mean sorry, really quickly back to the beginning of

640
00:36:21.559 --> 00:36:24.320
<v Speaker 1>your question. I'll be quiet. Java thought it was the

641
00:36:24.400 --> 00:36:28.239
<v Speaker 1>best regime because it took religion as a divisive force

642
00:36:28.320 --> 00:36:32.039
<v Speaker 1>out of politics and as a which you might what's

643
00:36:32.079 --> 00:36:35.880
<v Speaker 1>the right word, an authorizing force out of politics. Long story.

644
00:36:35.960 --> 00:36:38.159
<v Speaker 1>We promised to come back to that someday. But it

645
00:36:38.239 --> 00:36:40.960
<v Speaker 1>was the best regime because for the first time, it

646
00:36:41.199 --> 00:36:44.400
<v Speaker 1>was built entirely on the notion of the sovereignty of

647
00:36:44.480 --> 00:36:45.840
<v Speaker 1>the people and.

648
00:36:47.559 --> 00:36:48.440
<v Speaker 2>Not on some.

649
00:36:50.000 --> 00:36:54.800
<v Speaker 1>Fairy tale version of virtuous elites who philosopher kings who

650
00:36:54.800 --> 00:36:55.519
<v Speaker 1>would govern us?

651
00:36:56.239 --> 00:36:57.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, well, the point I mean, I guess

652
00:36:57.960 --> 00:37:01.440
<v Speaker 2>we should add for listeners. I mean this kind of

653
00:37:01.480 --> 00:37:03.800
<v Speaker 2>code speak for us to a certain extent, the best

654
00:37:03.840 --> 00:37:07.679
<v Speaker 2>regime was always the best regime in speech speech, right,

655
00:37:07.760 --> 00:37:09.480
<v Speaker 2>I mean that's the Republic's all about it. All right,

656
00:37:09.519 --> 00:37:12.559
<v Speaker 2>you want a perfect regime with yeah, one justice, right,

657
00:37:13.159 --> 00:37:15.239
<v Speaker 2>you would do it this way. And I mean I

658
00:37:15.280 --> 00:37:17.599
<v Speaker 2>think Leo Strauss did right somewhere that he said he

659
00:37:17.639 --> 00:37:20.639
<v Speaker 2>did believe that the best, the simply best regime is

660
00:37:20.679 --> 00:37:24.079
<v Speaker 2>a real thing, but unattainable for a whole bunch of reasons.

661
00:37:24.119 --> 00:37:27.559
<v Speaker 2>And then I think maybe where the modification here is

662
00:37:27.639 --> 00:37:29.800
<v Speaker 2>is so Jappas said, I'll do it this way in

663
00:37:29.880 --> 00:37:31.960
<v Speaker 2>one or two sentences, and then John you can weigh

664
00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:34.519
<v Speaker 2>in and help us or or ask us to clarify this.

665
00:37:34.960 --> 00:37:37.159
<v Speaker 2>I think he thinks this the best regime because it

666
00:37:37.639 --> 00:37:42.119
<v Speaker 2>best solved the fundamental human political and social problems, and

667
00:37:42.280 --> 00:37:44.039
<v Speaker 2>no one was ever going to improve upon it. It

668
00:37:44.159 --> 00:37:46.920
<v Speaker 2>did not mean there couldn't be progressed eaven material, moral,

669
00:37:47.000 --> 00:37:49.840
<v Speaker 2>and social, and in fact, that's you know, Lincoln's famous

670
00:37:49.960 --> 00:37:52.840
<v Speaker 2>line about dred Scott was, you know the or even

671
00:37:52.880 --> 00:37:55.199
<v Speaker 2>if you take Martin Luther King that the declaration is

672
00:37:55.199 --> 00:37:59.079
<v Speaker 2>a promissory note, that it was the basis for progress

673
00:37:59.199 --> 00:38:03.199
<v Speaker 2>and spreading equal opportunity, for freedom and dignity of human beings.

674
00:38:03.400 --> 00:38:06.079
<v Speaker 1>Right, but you weren't going to get joate his career

675
00:38:06.199 --> 00:38:11.760
<v Speaker 1>talking about what perfected it more, what got it better? Sorry? Right?

676
00:38:11.880 --> 00:38:13.519
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So that's the point is is that it didn't

677
00:38:13.519 --> 00:38:15.880
<v Speaker 2>mean you freeze it. I mean, Lord Fields seemed to

678
00:38:15.920 --> 00:38:18.800
<v Speaker 2>think that Japa thought that everything was frozen in place

679
00:38:18.880 --> 00:38:22.039
<v Speaker 2>in seventeen eighty seven or seventeen seventy six, And that's

680
00:38:22.159 --> 00:38:26.079
<v Speaker 2>just comically idiotic, John, I.

681
00:38:26.119 --> 00:38:30.159
<v Speaker 3>Don't get it, you know, well, you know what I

682
00:38:30.199 --> 00:38:32.559
<v Speaker 3>don't get is how you measure what's a better regime

683
00:38:32.639 --> 00:38:38.199
<v Speaker 3>from another. So unless you're using some kind of consequentialist

684
00:38:38.960 --> 00:38:45.480
<v Speaker 3>factors like population size, wealth, health, you know, power. So

685
00:38:46.000 --> 00:38:50.719
<v Speaker 3>for example, if it was about achieving moral achieving morally

686
00:38:50.920 --> 00:38:56.360
<v Speaker 3>just outcomes, well why isn't the British government, you know,

687
00:38:56.559 --> 00:39:01.000
<v Speaker 3>regime superior to ours. They got rid of slavery before

688
00:39:01.119 --> 00:39:04.880
<v Speaker 3>we did. They didn't have the Civil War over slavery

689
00:39:04.960 --> 00:39:08.719
<v Speaker 3>that we did. You know, from many periods because they

690
00:39:08.760 --> 00:39:12.760
<v Speaker 3>didn't have segregation, they had a broader scope for individual rights.

691
00:39:12.800 --> 00:39:16.519
<v Speaker 3>I would say for more of the modern period after

692
00:39:16.599 --> 00:39:20.559
<v Speaker 3>our revolution than we did, right. I mean, we are history,

693
00:39:20.679 --> 00:39:24.199
<v Speaker 3>you know had slavery. Our history had segregation. The British

694
00:39:24.280 --> 00:39:26.400
<v Speaker 3>didn't have that after seventeen seventy six.

695
00:39:26.480 --> 00:39:29.679
<v Speaker 1>So how do you mention your how slavery?

696
00:39:30.199 --> 00:39:33.119
<v Speaker 3>I'm just saying, how do you just say conclude that why.

697
00:39:33.360 --> 00:39:36.800
<v Speaker 1>We'd No, no, no, I'm just want to explain that

698
00:39:36.880 --> 00:39:37.679
<v Speaker 1>to me if you're.

699
00:39:39.440 --> 00:39:43.360
<v Speaker 3>Not finished. So your moral view slavery is bad?

700
00:39:43.480 --> 00:39:43.639
<v Speaker 2>Right?

701
00:39:43.760 --> 00:39:47.599
<v Speaker 3>So the British abolished it before we did. The British

702
00:39:47.639 --> 00:39:50.119
<v Speaker 3>didn't have racial segregatey. Why isn't there was even better

703
00:39:50.199 --> 00:39:53.360
<v Speaker 3>than our regime because they they just outcome faster and

704
00:39:53.440 --> 00:39:54.519
<v Speaker 3>more broadly than we did.

705
00:39:55.079 --> 00:39:58.400
<v Speaker 2>John, John, John, So I don't understand. I'm remember in

706
00:39:58.480 --> 00:40:01.159
<v Speaker 2>all these previous episodes where you ca used me Lucretia

707
00:40:01.199 --> 00:40:05.039
<v Speaker 2>of being Anglo files, and now you're from No, I'm

708
00:40:05.039 --> 00:40:09.559
<v Speaker 2>not very clever, guys are.

709
00:40:09.480 --> 00:40:12.519
<v Speaker 3>The Anglo files? Because your own test would you to

710
00:40:12.639 --> 00:40:14.800
<v Speaker 3>think that the British were better than we were, which

711
00:40:14.840 --> 00:40:16.880
<v Speaker 3>is when you guys secretly think anyway.

712
00:40:17.079 --> 00:40:20.519
<v Speaker 2>No, it's a very good regime, but it's not as

713
00:40:20.559 --> 00:40:26.679
<v Speaker 2>good as ours. I'll just assert that, what why, why.

714
00:40:26.639 --> 00:40:29.639
<v Speaker 1>Is the British regime regime inferior to get this thing

715
00:40:29.760 --> 00:40:31.320
<v Speaker 1>called the divine right of kings.

716
00:40:31.440 --> 00:40:31.679
<v Speaker 3>John.

717
00:40:31.800 --> 00:40:36.519
<v Speaker 1>They believe that that lovely gentleman, that idiot King Carls

718
00:40:37.559 --> 00:40:42.360
<v Speaker 1>is king because God said, but they don't really believe.

719
00:40:42.440 --> 00:40:44.039
<v Speaker 3>But they don't really believe that anymore?

720
00:40:44.320 --> 00:40:45.360
<v Speaker 1>Why is he still king?

721
00:40:46.800 --> 00:40:52.079
<v Speaker 3>They just have these fake, fake ceremonial positions. The parliament

722
00:40:52.199 --> 00:40:53.039
<v Speaker 3>is really sovereign?

723
00:40:54.199 --> 00:40:57.800
<v Speaker 1>Why why is parliament sovereign? Why not? No?

724
00:40:58.000 --> 00:40:59.039
<v Speaker 3>Under their constitution?

725
00:40:59.480 --> 00:41:00.360
<v Speaker 1>Yea, I know, But so what?

726
00:41:01.760 --> 00:41:01.920
<v Speaker 2>Why?

727
00:41:03.559 --> 00:41:05.840
<v Speaker 1>What are you judging these things bias? I guess what

728
00:41:05.920 --> 00:41:07.000
<v Speaker 1>I'm asking you to tell me.

729
00:41:07.119 --> 00:41:07.960
<v Speaker 3>If you say.

730
00:41:09.519 --> 00:41:11.039
<v Speaker 1>No, I don't want you. I want you to judge

731
00:41:11.079 --> 00:41:11.719
<v Speaker 1>them by yours.

732
00:41:11.880 --> 00:41:14.480
<v Speaker 3>I want you to tell me differently.

733
00:41:15.239 --> 00:41:18.280
<v Speaker 1>Okay, But let me ask you this question. If if

734
00:41:18.760 --> 00:41:22.280
<v Speaker 1>and I'm a little I'm a little bit sad the

735
00:41:22.320 --> 00:41:24.800
<v Speaker 1>way things stand right now, I'm hoping that it changes.

736
00:41:24.920 --> 00:41:29.079
<v Speaker 1>But if in fact, the Persian people are finally successful

737
00:41:29.119 --> 00:41:31.239
<v Speaker 1>with whatever help they can get from Trump et cetera,

738
00:41:31.719 --> 00:41:35.800
<v Speaker 1>on overthrowing that god awful evil Islamic regime as I

739
00:41:36.079 --> 00:41:38.920
<v Speaker 1>believe it. You don't believe Aslam as evil?

740
00:41:40.079 --> 00:41:40.679
<v Speaker 2>Do you care?

741
00:41:41.079 --> 00:41:45.039
<v Speaker 1>Is there by? What standards would you judge whether or

742
00:41:45.119 --> 00:41:50.039
<v Speaker 1>not a re emergence of freedom and democracy in Iran

743
00:41:50.719 --> 00:41:54.480
<v Speaker 1>would be better or worse by what standard? Would you?

744
00:41:54.800 --> 00:41:54.840
<v Speaker 5>So?

745
00:41:54.920 --> 00:41:58.719
<v Speaker 3>I would look at the traditional standards of national success,

746
00:41:59.559 --> 00:42:07.000
<v Speaker 3>size of population, for capital, GDP, health, longevity. Right, I

747
00:42:07.079 --> 00:42:09.519
<v Speaker 3>mean they're like the things I mean I would think,

748
00:42:09.559 --> 00:42:10.519
<v Speaker 3>do we look at those?

749
00:42:11.440 --> 00:42:12.360
<v Speaker 2>I mean, so would you?

750
00:42:12.639 --> 00:42:15.000
<v Speaker 3>I guess this is I guess you would prefer a

751
00:42:15.320 --> 00:42:19.400
<v Speaker 3>democracy which is poor and people live nasty British and

752
00:42:19.519 --> 00:42:24.960
<v Speaker 3>short lives. Oh good lord, No, But I'm just saying,

753
00:42:25.039 --> 00:42:27.519
<v Speaker 3>like those I would I would measure it on these

754
00:42:27.559 --> 00:42:31.000
<v Speaker 3>as sort of objective standards of wealth and the prosperity

755
00:42:31.039 --> 00:42:33.039
<v Speaker 3>of the people and their health and so on. Now,

756
00:42:33.239 --> 00:42:36.199
<v Speaker 3>maybe that correlates highly with individual liberties, because people who

757
00:42:36.239 --> 00:42:38.679
<v Speaker 3>have a lot of individual liberties, their economies are freer

758
00:42:38.840 --> 00:42:41.159
<v Speaker 3>and they're they do better I think.

759
00:42:41.199 --> 00:42:45.519
<v Speaker 2>Materially too, John, you are a pyromaniac in a field

760
00:42:45.559 --> 00:42:48.360
<v Speaker 2>of straw man right now, this is just the way

761
00:42:48.360 --> 00:42:49.079
<v Speaker 2>you say. No, I don't.

762
00:42:49.119 --> 00:42:51.320
<v Speaker 3>I mean, that's why I'm asking you your But I'm saying,

763
00:42:51.400 --> 00:42:54.760
<v Speaker 3>based on your views of how you should judge societies,

764
00:42:55.639 --> 00:43:02.320
<v Speaker 3>Britain was earlier more successful than we were seen individual liberty.

765
00:43:03.039 --> 00:43:06.239
<v Speaker 3>No one I mean one tiny point, slavery. I thought

766
00:43:06.320 --> 00:43:09.920
<v Speaker 3>he was the most important because it's government by consent.

767
00:43:10.039 --> 00:43:12.440
<v Speaker 3>They abolished slavery, but they don't.

768
00:43:12.280 --> 00:43:14.639
<v Speaker 1>Have They didn't have government by consent as the result

769
00:43:14.719 --> 00:43:17.840
<v Speaker 1>of it. Well, the other thing is, for a lot

770
00:43:17.880 --> 00:43:19.480
<v Speaker 1>of reasons, they had.

771
00:43:19.519 --> 00:43:22.039
<v Speaker 2>Almost no slavery in the homeland. If they'd had it

772
00:43:22.159 --> 00:43:24.320
<v Speaker 2>in the same relative scale as we did, they would

773
00:43:24.320 --> 00:43:28.000
<v Speaker 2>have had great difficulty getting rid of it. And they're

774
00:43:28.000 --> 00:43:30.719
<v Speaker 2>the ones who abolished the slave trade, not us. Well,

775
00:43:30.760 --> 00:43:32.440
<v Speaker 2>the British navy, correct, I mean they used to.

776
00:43:32.599 --> 00:43:35.199
<v Speaker 3>United Yeah, the British Navy had great costs to themselves.

777
00:43:35.519 --> 00:43:41.119
<v Speaker 2>It's more John, slave trade. I'll just make this proposition

778
00:43:41.199 --> 00:43:42.920
<v Speaker 2>and then show it the remedy. I'm going to sentence

779
00:43:42.960 --> 00:43:44.880
<v Speaker 2>you to a remedy. If you want to make the

780
00:43:45.039 --> 00:43:49.559
<v Speaker 2>historical proposition that our institutions and safeguards of liberty owe

781
00:43:49.559 --> 00:43:52.119
<v Speaker 2>a lot to the British tradition, such as their Civil

782
00:43:52.159 --> 00:43:54.760
<v Speaker 2>War and the Revolution of sixteen eighty eight, that's perfectly fair.

783
00:43:55.440 --> 00:43:57.480
<v Speaker 2>Our point is that we did it better than them,

784
00:43:58.079 --> 00:44:01.199
<v Speaker 2>that's all. And ah, okay, so John.

785
00:44:01.440 --> 00:44:02.920
<v Speaker 3>But so how do you But well, let me ask you,

786
00:44:03.079 --> 00:44:06.039
<v Speaker 3>how do you know that? Because if your view is

787
00:44:06.199 --> 00:44:11.000
<v Speaker 3>the ultimate principle is government by consent. Then we had

788
00:44:11.119 --> 00:44:14.960
<v Speaker 3>slavery right from seventeen seventy six to eighteen sixty five,

789
00:44:15.440 --> 00:44:19.760
<v Speaker 3>and then we had segregation from ruffly eighteen seventy five

790
00:44:19.840 --> 00:44:23.239
<v Speaker 3>to nineteen, I would say till the nineteen sixties. Those

791
00:44:23.280 --> 00:44:26.000
<v Speaker 3>are two long periods where a huge portion of our

792
00:44:26.039 --> 00:44:29.119
<v Speaker 3>population was basically governed without their consent.

793
00:44:32.119 --> 00:44:34.679
<v Speaker 1>Well they did well, first of all, yes they did.

794
00:44:34.760 --> 00:44:38.599
<v Speaker 1>But leave that aside. Why did we get rid of slavery? John?

795
00:44:38.920 --> 00:44:42.960
<v Speaker 1>Why did we finally decide that we were no longer

796
00:44:43.039 --> 00:44:45.440
<v Speaker 1>going to have Jim Crow laws, that we were going

797
00:44:45.519 --> 00:44:47.719
<v Speaker 1>to pass the Civil Rights Act of nineteen sixty four,

798
00:44:47.760 --> 00:44:50.199
<v Speaker 1>in the Voting Rights Act of nineteen sixty four? Why

799
00:44:50.719 --> 00:44:51.840
<v Speaker 1>why would we do that?

800
00:44:54.159 --> 00:44:56.639
<v Speaker 3>My argument is a comparative one.

801
00:44:57.000 --> 00:44:59.320
<v Speaker 1>I accept, Well, I don't want to make a comparative one.

802
00:45:01.239 --> 00:45:04.119
<v Speaker 1>I don't want to live in England. They don't matter

803
00:45:04.239 --> 00:45:06.440
<v Speaker 1>to me. I want to know how you would judge

804
00:45:06.559 --> 00:45:11.239
<v Speaker 1>ours and why you think we got widow slavery exactly?

805
00:45:11.599 --> 00:45:14.599
<v Speaker 1>What's the standards exactly?

806
00:45:14.760 --> 00:45:19.400
<v Speaker 3>So look, I'm saying, if I accept your standard, right,

807
00:45:20.039 --> 00:45:23.599
<v Speaker 3>if your standard is the principal government by consent, is

808
00:45:24.119 --> 00:45:26.880
<v Speaker 3>also that's derivative.

809
00:45:27.719 --> 00:45:28.039
<v Speaker 2>All right.

810
00:45:29.719 --> 00:45:29.840
<v Speaker 3>Uh.

811
00:45:30.840 --> 00:45:35.679
<v Speaker 1>The standard is is government based upon a fundamental understanding

812
00:45:35.719 --> 00:45:39.159
<v Speaker 1>of unchanging human nature. And one of those one of

813
00:45:39.199 --> 00:45:42.639
<v Speaker 1>those elements, I'll be done. One of those elements is

814
00:45:42.679 --> 00:45:50.119
<v Speaker 1>that human nature is again uh god, no, just yes,

815
00:45:50.239 --> 00:45:54.199
<v Speaker 1>it does, Yes, it does. I put it like this,

816
00:45:54.800 --> 00:46:00.039
<v Speaker 1>If you decide to adopt a dog, John, and and

817
00:46:00.119 --> 00:46:03.960
<v Speaker 1>then you expect the dog to act like a horse,

818
00:46:05.800 --> 00:46:07.239
<v Speaker 1>how well is that going to work out for you?

819
00:46:10.159 --> 00:46:11.679
<v Speaker 3>That got to do with anythink.

820
00:46:12.320 --> 00:46:15.039
<v Speaker 1>Because dogs have a nature and horses have a nature.

821
00:46:15.400 --> 00:46:21.519
<v Speaker 1>Run no, and humans have a nature. And the problem

822
00:46:21.599 --> 00:46:24.119
<v Speaker 1>with human nature is that it is, in fact flood.

823
00:46:24.480 --> 00:46:28.639
<v Speaker 1>Rationality is influenced more or less in any given person

824
00:46:28.920 --> 00:46:32.880
<v Speaker 1>by the passions, which means that while human beings are

825
00:46:33.000 --> 00:46:38.559
<v Speaker 1>capable of incredible excellence and virtue, they're not likely to

826
00:46:38.719 --> 00:46:45.039
<v Speaker 1>achieve that. All prior regimes that had that set some

827
00:46:45.320 --> 00:46:50.360
<v Speaker 1>kind of lofty goal for themselves depended Plato, Aristotle, and

828
00:46:50.840 --> 00:46:54.599
<v Speaker 1>even Cicero depended upon a version of human nature that

829
00:46:54.800 --> 00:46:59.599
<v Speaker 1>believed in this kind of uh solid virtue that you

830
00:46:59.679 --> 00:47:02.320
<v Speaker 1>could you could depend upon, and they that's why they

831
00:47:02.360 --> 00:47:06.639
<v Speaker 1>all failed. In the United States, we want virtue, but

832
00:47:07.000 --> 00:47:11.800
<v Speaker 1>we have all of these mechanisms to make sure that

833
00:47:11.920 --> 00:47:16.840
<v Speaker 1>when virtue fails, we don't descended the tyranny. That's what

834
00:47:17.000 --> 00:47:17.960
<v Speaker 1>makes it the best regime.

835
00:47:19.159 --> 00:47:24.400
<v Speaker 2>And all of those things that makes sense well back.

836
00:47:24.280 --> 00:47:28.119
<v Speaker 1>Anomalies or they were contradictions. They were not part of

837
00:47:28.280 --> 00:47:31.000
<v Speaker 1>the what makes the United States the best regime, which

838
00:47:31.079 --> 00:47:33.719
<v Speaker 1>is why those things ultimately could be gotten rid of.

839
00:47:34.920 --> 00:47:37.480
<v Speaker 3>So you're saying that the America is the best regime

840
00:47:37.639 --> 00:47:43.719
<v Speaker 3>because it it's based on the idea that people are fallen,

841
00:47:43.880 --> 00:47:46.559
<v Speaker 3>and so a government that's constructed on the basis of

842
00:47:46.679 --> 00:47:49.920
<v Speaker 3>people have fallen is a better regime than one.

843
00:47:49.840 --> 00:47:52.719
<v Speaker 1>That is not. I didn't say that regardless.

844
00:47:52.239 --> 00:47:57.480
<v Speaker 3>Of the actual consequences or what it produces in terms

845
00:47:57.519 --> 00:48:00.480
<v Speaker 3>of actual policies and the effect on the population.

846
00:48:02.039 --> 00:48:05.079
<v Speaker 2>Help me, Steve here, Well, I want to draw this

847
00:48:05.159 --> 00:48:08.920
<v Speaker 2>segment to a conclusion to my proposition is that the

848
00:48:09.079 --> 00:48:12.159
<v Speaker 2>United States is the best regime, both as a theoretical

849
00:48:12.239 --> 00:48:14.920
<v Speaker 2>matter and as a practical matter. And John, if I

850
00:48:15.000 --> 00:48:16.559
<v Speaker 2>have to, I'm not going to do it now because

851
00:48:16.559 --> 00:48:18.719
<v Speaker 2>we're out of time. If I have to, I could

852
00:48:18.840 --> 00:48:23.119
<v Speaker 2>use your empirical metrics to demonstrate that proposition between us

853
00:48:23.199 --> 00:48:24.760
<v Speaker 2>and England as admirable as England.

854
00:48:24.800 --> 00:48:27.679
<v Speaker 3>I let me say, I think on empirical standards we

855
00:48:27.760 --> 00:48:30.719
<v Speaker 3>are far superior country to Britain, but not because of it,

856
00:48:30.840 --> 00:48:32.400
<v Speaker 3>you guys standards.

857
00:48:34.000 --> 00:48:36.559
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think you just contradicted yourself. But I'll I'll

858
00:48:36.599 --> 00:48:38.639
<v Speaker 2>have to go back to the transcript. In the meantime,

859
00:48:38.679 --> 00:48:41.639
<v Speaker 2>I have the remedy for you. I just got in

860
00:48:41.719 --> 00:48:44.079
<v Speaker 2>the mail Harvey Mansfield's new book Aware they canna put

861
00:48:44.079 --> 00:48:46.519
<v Speaker 2>it the Rise and Fall of Rational Control, And I

862
00:48:46.559 --> 00:48:49.360
<v Speaker 2>thought this might be some new attack on progressives, and

863
00:48:49.480 --> 00:48:51.880
<v Speaker 2>I think actually that it is in here. Turns out

864
00:48:52.280 --> 00:48:56.840
<v Speaker 2>this book John was based on his course History of

865
00:48:56.880 --> 00:48:59.519
<v Speaker 2>Modern Political Philosophies that he taught every other year from

866
00:48:59.599 --> 00:49:02.960
<v Speaker 2>nineteen sixty eight to twenty twenty two. Did you take

867
00:49:03.000 --> 00:49:06.960
<v Speaker 2>this course, John? And if you did, nderstand it? Oh god,

868
00:49:07.039 --> 00:49:09.599
<v Speaker 2>what I thought? No, I took the course.

869
00:49:09.719 --> 00:49:12.719
<v Speaker 3>I'm deep in the weeds of the many subtleties of

870
00:49:12.800 --> 00:49:15.079
<v Speaker 3>Harvey Manstone, and I still haven't figured them all out.

871
00:49:15.679 --> 00:49:19.079
<v Speaker 2>Well, he's in large accord with our point of view

872
00:49:19.119 --> 00:49:21.119
<v Speaker 2>here about America is the best regime. Didn't put the

873
00:49:21.159 --> 00:49:25.519
<v Speaker 2>same terms as Jaffa. But okay, we will continue this

874
00:49:25.679 --> 00:49:28.079
<v Speaker 2>some other time. But right now, I'll take a quick

875
00:49:28.079 --> 00:49:30.519
<v Speaker 2>break and come back, and I guess we have enough

876
00:49:30.559 --> 00:49:32.400
<v Speaker 2>time to talk very briefly about Greenland, and then we

877
00:49:32.480 --> 00:49:33.880
<v Speaker 2>have to get out for the day, so we'll be

878
00:49:33.960 --> 00:49:40.719
<v Speaker 2>right back. Everybody, don't go away, all right. Continuing on

879
00:49:40.840 --> 00:49:43.400
<v Speaker 2>the general theme of those whom the gods will destroy,

880
00:49:43.440 --> 00:49:45.400
<v Speaker 2>they first make mad, let's just do one little thing

881
00:49:45.440 --> 00:49:47.800
<v Speaker 2>about Trump. I'm a little worried that he might be

882
00:49:47.880 --> 00:49:50.320
<v Speaker 2>heading into a sophomore slump. We don't have time to

883
00:49:50.360 --> 00:49:52.119
<v Speaker 2>go through all the things that could bring up about that,

884
00:49:52.280 --> 00:49:56.599
<v Speaker 2>so I'll just leent myself to Greenland. I'll say two things.

885
00:49:57.199 --> 00:50:00.400
<v Speaker 2>One is is that if, by the way, the polls

886
00:50:00.440 --> 00:50:03.199
<v Speaker 2>show that like ninety five percent of Americans are opposed

887
00:50:03.280 --> 00:50:06.760
<v Speaker 2>to invading Greenland, that includes ninety two percent of Republicans

888
00:50:07.119 --> 00:50:09.800
<v Speaker 2>and most of the rest are undecided, there's almost no

889
00:50:09.880 --> 00:50:11.440
<v Speaker 2>one thinks this is a good idea. I think if

890
00:50:11.480 --> 00:50:15.159
<v Speaker 2>Trump literally did it, he could be successfully impeached and convicted.

891
00:50:15.760 --> 00:50:18.159
<v Speaker 2>On the other hand, I actually think this makes this

892
00:50:18.280 --> 00:50:21.280
<v Speaker 2>is such totally Trumpian art of the deal. And you

893
00:50:21.320 --> 00:50:23.920
<v Speaker 2>know what, it looks like it's working. I mean, it's

894
00:50:23.920 --> 00:50:26.760
<v Speaker 2>certainly got the Europeans attention and everyone's upset about it.

895
00:50:27.800 --> 00:50:29.719
<v Speaker 2>But I think and I can sort of go through

896
00:50:29.719 --> 00:50:33.800
<v Speaker 2>the reasons why that this is because I can think

897
00:50:33.800 --> 00:50:37.079
<v Speaker 2>of some examples of Trump's own business experience from forty

898
00:50:37.159 --> 00:50:39.880
<v Speaker 2>years ago where this is exactly how he behaved and

899
00:50:40.079 --> 00:50:42.280
<v Speaker 2>everyone came out the winner from it on both sides

900
00:50:42.320 --> 00:50:46.199
<v Speaker 2>of the of the of the equation. And so I

901
00:50:46.320 --> 00:50:49.039
<v Speaker 2>kind of liked this whole greenland thing and the old

902
00:50:49.119 --> 00:50:51.960
<v Speaker 2>fashioned way of doing it with patient She could we

903
00:50:52.039 --> 00:50:56.159
<v Speaker 2>buy greenland like Harry Truman wanted to do. She wouldn't

904
00:50:56.199 --> 00:50:58.000
<v Speaker 2>be nice if we paid more attention to gree No,

905
00:50:58.119 --> 00:51:00.559
<v Speaker 2>I think Trump's method and this is absolute right, and

906
00:51:00.760 --> 00:51:03.679
<v Speaker 2>I love it, but that, combined with other things, you're

907
00:51:03.719 --> 00:51:06.239
<v Speaker 2>already is getting a little too overconfident from his first

908
00:51:06.320 --> 00:51:08.599
<v Speaker 2>year's successes. That's my opening proposition.

909
00:51:11.039 --> 00:51:15.079
<v Speaker 3>Well, I no, no, but I think.

910
00:51:16.679 --> 00:51:16.800
<v Speaker 5>You know.

911
00:51:16.880 --> 00:51:19.519
<v Speaker 3>I wrote a piece about the National Security strategy that

912
00:51:19.639 --> 00:51:21.480
<v Speaker 3>they issued, and this is what's going on as you're

913
00:51:21.519 --> 00:51:25.320
<v Speaker 3>keeping with the national security strategy, and that right after

914
00:51:25.480 --> 00:51:27.880
<v Speaker 3>defense of the homeland, the most important strategic goal of

915
00:51:27.880 --> 00:51:30.920
<v Speaker 3>the United States should be controlled the western hemisphere to

916
00:51:31.039 --> 00:51:35.719
<v Speaker 3>prevent our enemies from establishing beachheads of influence where they

917
00:51:35.760 --> 00:51:39.599
<v Speaker 3>can destabilize us, like Venezuela or Cuba. And if you

918
00:51:39.679 --> 00:51:41.320
<v Speaker 3>look at a map of the United States of the

919
00:51:41.480 --> 00:51:44.840
<v Speaker 3>year of the globe from the north, Greenland is an

920
00:51:44.880 --> 00:51:50.320
<v Speaker 3>extremely important right placement in the world just by the

921
00:51:50.440 --> 00:51:54.559
<v Speaker 3>nature of geography, and so you know, the United States

922
00:51:54.679 --> 00:51:58.920
<v Speaker 3>needs to have basically unlimited use of Greenland in the

923
00:51:59.039 --> 00:52:03.320
<v Speaker 3>competition with the in the Russians, and whether I don't

924
00:52:03.360 --> 00:52:06.280
<v Speaker 3>think in the end, what's as important as whether we

925
00:52:06.400 --> 00:52:09.239
<v Speaker 3>formally possess it, possess it as it is that we

926
00:52:09.440 --> 00:52:12.000
<v Speaker 3>have a limited right to use it as a base

927
00:52:12.079 --> 00:52:16.079
<v Speaker 3>for a defense and for the military. And so I

928
00:52:16.360 --> 00:52:18.840
<v Speaker 3>think that we already have a treaty that allows us

929
00:52:18.880 --> 00:52:21.719
<v Speaker 3>to do that, but perhaps Trump wants to make it secure,

930
00:52:23.039 --> 00:52:25.599
<v Speaker 3>and so he is this kind of way of you know,

931
00:52:25.880 --> 00:52:28.639
<v Speaker 3>browbeating the other sides and to recognizing it. On the

932
00:52:28.679 --> 00:52:31.559
<v Speaker 3>other hand, I don't think that we should invade, you know,

933
00:52:31.599 --> 00:52:35.400
<v Speaker 3>attack Danty or whatever Denmark and seize Greenland because that's

934
00:52:35.800 --> 00:52:38.280
<v Speaker 3>formally in NATO, and I think that would be well

935
00:52:38.679 --> 00:52:42.320
<v Speaker 3>for US. And taking over Greenland and establishing it's weird.

936
00:52:42.360 --> 00:52:44.719
<v Speaker 3>It's kind of like he wants the legal title to

937
00:52:44.800 --> 00:52:46.960
<v Speaker 3>it even though functionally we will have the right to

938
00:52:47.079 --> 00:52:48.199
<v Speaker 3>use it as much as we want.

939
00:52:48.280 --> 00:52:49.880
<v Speaker 2>Well, wait a minute, I mean, let me do one

940
00:52:49.920 --> 00:52:52.480
<v Speaker 2>thing and then I'll thro to you lucretia, which is uh.

941
00:52:52.840 --> 00:52:56.599
<v Speaker 2>I think this is just defense. The mineral resources of

942
00:52:56.880 --> 00:53:01.239
<v Speaker 2>Greenland are substantial and very advantage to everybody because being

943
00:53:01.280 --> 00:53:03.679
<v Speaker 2>alternative China and even for oil and gas all the

944
00:53:03.760 --> 00:53:07.480
<v Speaker 2>other usual places. And the case against owning it is

945
00:53:07.559 --> 00:53:10.760
<v Speaker 2>this simple. It will be federal land if we acquire it,

946
00:53:10.960 --> 00:53:14.039
<v Speaker 2>and federal land, as we know, gets preyed upon by

947
00:53:14.079 --> 00:53:17.199
<v Speaker 2>the bureaucrats. The first thing the Democrats do when they

948
00:53:17.280 --> 00:53:20.559
<v Speaker 2>come back into power is declared a national wildlife refuge

949
00:53:20.639 --> 00:53:24.280
<v Speaker 2>for bacteria and the iris and darn thing. Right, So

950
00:53:24.719 --> 00:53:27.039
<v Speaker 2>that's actually a real worry, which is we'd be better

951
00:53:27.119 --> 00:53:30.000
<v Speaker 2>off if we could reach a minerals deal with Denmark

952
00:53:30.039 --> 00:53:34.039
<v Speaker 2>and our Greenland. If Greenland becomes independent, then necessarily owning

953
00:53:34.079 --> 00:53:38.079
<v Speaker 2>it oddly enough, so that's why I I'd love it.

954
00:53:38.119 --> 00:53:40.079
<v Speaker 2>If we owned it, then we'd have Canada boxed in,

955
00:53:40.159 --> 00:53:42.920
<v Speaker 2>which is much to be desired. But I could see,

956
00:53:43.280 --> 00:53:44.719
<v Speaker 2>you know, the outcome of this looks to me like

957
00:53:44.800 --> 00:53:46.719
<v Speaker 2>it might actually be pretty good. I mean, it's early yet.

958
00:53:46.760 --> 00:53:48.840
<v Speaker 3>But now look the Canadians we should invade.

959
00:53:48.880 --> 00:53:53.079
<v Speaker 2>But greenwell, of course, right, well, there's a lot there, John,

960
00:53:53.119 --> 00:53:54.760
<v Speaker 2>there's a ton of good stuff there anyway.

961
00:53:55.639 --> 00:53:57.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, my dad used to say this, and I

962
00:53:57.840 --> 00:54:01.280
<v Speaker 1>didn't realize until till fairly recently that it actually came

963
00:54:01.360 --> 00:54:05.320
<v Speaker 1>from one of my dad ancestors, Eric the Great, the Viking,

964
00:54:05.880 --> 00:54:09.599
<v Speaker 1>who named it Greenland as it.

965
00:54:11.199 --> 00:54:12.519
<v Speaker 3>He's an ancestor of yours.

966
00:54:13.039 --> 00:54:17.639
<v Speaker 1>Yes, as a matter of fact, yes it does. I'm

967
00:54:17.840 --> 00:54:22.119
<v Speaker 1>very proud of it. But that there's no greening, as

968
00:54:22.199 --> 00:54:24.320
<v Speaker 1>my dad used to say, he was stationed during the

969
00:54:24.440 --> 00:54:27.519
<v Speaker 1>Korean War and in both Greenland and Iceland actually, and

970
00:54:27.679 --> 00:54:30.360
<v Speaker 1>he said, there's no there's not as much ice in

971
00:54:30.440 --> 00:54:34.519
<v Speaker 1>Iceland and there's no green in Greenland. And that's all

972
00:54:34.559 --> 00:54:36.719
<v Speaker 1>I care about. I'm not going there. It's too cold,

973
00:54:37.000 --> 00:54:41.760
<v Speaker 1>I hate And what Steve cut me off and wouldn't

974
00:54:41.800 --> 00:54:43.599
<v Speaker 1>let me say to John. If he keeps this up,

975
00:54:43.840 --> 00:54:48.199
<v Speaker 1>he's going to find himself from this and unemployed in Greenland.

976
00:54:48.920 --> 00:54:50.000
<v Speaker 1>I know what that's from.

977
00:54:50.840 --> 00:54:55.920
<v Speaker 2>No, what's from probably Dodge Princess Bride.

978
00:54:57.400 --> 00:55:02.079
<v Speaker 1>For the years, really keta once every five or six years.

979
00:55:02.159 --> 00:55:05.320
<v Speaker 1>Just no, it's God no, it's it's actually one of

980
00:55:05.360 --> 00:55:07.280
<v Speaker 1>the best. It's awesome.

981
00:55:08.320 --> 00:55:12.920
<v Speaker 3>It's like it's like a princess and knights and uh yeah,

982
00:55:15.599 --> 00:55:18.800
<v Speaker 3>Lucretius right, it is canon and I am dere Lichton

983
00:55:18.920 --> 00:55:20.239
<v Speaker 3>keeping up with the cannon.

984
00:55:20.760 --> 00:55:24.280
<v Speaker 2>All that it's But let's close. You've got some Babylon

985
00:55:24.360 --> 00:55:25.039
<v Speaker 2>behind I do.

986
00:55:26.039 --> 00:55:28.679
<v Speaker 1>I don't know what to do about you. Guys NATO

987
00:55:28.840 --> 00:55:33.239
<v Speaker 1>big US for emergency funding so they can defend Greenland

988
00:55:33.400 --> 00:55:41.320
<v Speaker 1>from US. Yeah, Catangi Brown Jackson arrives at work an

989
00:55:41.360 --> 00:55:49.639
<v Speaker 1>official SCOTUS short bus. Oh yeah, actually, you got to

990
00:55:49.679 --> 00:55:51.280
<v Speaker 1>give them credit for that. I don't know what this

991
00:55:51.320 --> 00:55:53.639
<v Speaker 1>one means, because you guys probably don't either, if none

992
00:55:53.639 --> 00:55:56.159
<v Speaker 1>of us have little kids. But I'm sure somebody out

993
00:55:56.199 --> 00:55:59.599
<v Speaker 1>there might know. Supreme Court justices bring in miss Rachel,

994
00:56:00.400 --> 00:56:05.800
<v Speaker 1>Miss Rachel to explain cases to Catangy Brown Jackson, or

995
00:56:07.360 --> 00:56:10.119
<v Speaker 1>brought in to explain difference between boys and girls to

996
00:56:10.199 --> 00:56:11.039
<v Speaker 1>the Supreme Court.

997
00:56:11.559 --> 00:56:12.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that one's good.

998
00:56:13.440 --> 00:56:17.719
<v Speaker 1>That makes my I told you guys last week come much.

999
00:56:17.800 --> 00:56:23.079
<v Speaker 1>I was really, uh sort of fascinated by the feminist

1000
00:56:23.199 --> 00:56:27.920
<v Speaker 1>angle of what's going on in Iran, and uh, one

1001
00:56:27.960 --> 00:56:30.119
<v Speaker 1>of the things that I steve you even liked it.

1002
00:56:30.280 --> 00:56:32.679
<v Speaker 1>I put on on X is that you know, this

1003
00:56:32.800 --> 00:56:36.119
<v Speaker 1>has been amazing to watch how braive these women are,

1004
00:56:36.280 --> 00:56:36.840
<v Speaker 1>you know the ones.

1005
00:56:36.960 --> 00:56:37.400
<v Speaker 3>I love it.

1006
00:56:37.519 --> 00:56:40.960
<v Speaker 1>They light their cigarettes with the burning pictures of the

1007
00:56:41.079 --> 00:56:45.800
<v Speaker 1>aetola is so cool. And uh, one of the things

1008
00:56:45.840 --> 00:56:50.599
<v Speaker 1>I'm absolutely amazed at is how beautiful the Persian women are.

1009
00:56:50.599 --> 00:56:52.000
<v Speaker 1>I mean, it's just some of the times you see

1010
00:56:52.000 --> 00:56:55.159
<v Speaker 1>them and you're like, they're dropped their gorgeous. So anyway,

1011
00:56:55.400 --> 00:56:57.679
<v Speaker 1>that being said, sorry I went off on that long

1012
00:56:57.760 --> 00:57:02.679
<v Speaker 1>tangent where to go United States offers to trade its

1013
00:57:03.039 --> 00:57:04.519
<v Speaker 1>liberal women for Oh.

1014
00:57:05.880 --> 00:57:08.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's a good one, right all right? John?

1015
00:57:08.360 --> 00:57:13.719
<v Speaker 1>You wait, wait, wait what what? Just one more? Sorry?

1016
00:57:15.480 --> 00:57:20.119
<v Speaker 1>I lost it. Now that's what you get. Democrats fear

1017
00:57:20.599 --> 00:57:23.760
<v Speaker 1>Iranian love of freedom could spread to America.

1018
00:57:24.840 --> 00:57:27.599
<v Speaker 2>That is a good one. I saw that one do Minnesota?

1019
00:57:28.360 --> 00:57:29.199
<v Speaker 2>Yeah or Minnesota?

1020
00:57:29.360 --> 00:57:29.559
<v Speaker 5>Yeah?

1021
00:57:29.639 --> 00:57:30.079
<v Speaker 2>That's right.

1022
00:57:30.960 --> 00:57:34.480
<v Speaker 3>Okay, So always drink your whiskey meat, buy more books.

1023
00:57:34.559 --> 00:57:37.800
<v Speaker 3>And Steve, how has AI seduced you this week?

1024
00:57:38.519 --> 00:57:41.920
<v Speaker 2>Well? I asked AI to give us an outline of

1025
00:57:42.920 --> 00:57:47.159
<v Speaker 2>what Lucretia's indictment of mayor, sorry, Governor Waltz would look

1026
00:57:47.239 --> 00:57:50.400
<v Speaker 2>like under the Insurrection Act, and a long outline. I'll

1027
00:57:50.440 --> 00:57:53.000
<v Speaker 2>just give you one part of the outline and one

1028
00:57:53.119 --> 00:57:56.920
<v Speaker 2>sentence from the actual language of it. The bullet points

1029
00:57:56.960 --> 00:58:01.320
<v Speaker 2>were Lucretia's tone would be ice, not populist. It would

1030
00:58:01.360 --> 00:58:06.039
<v Speaker 2>be one dryly contemptuous, two intellectually scathing, and three heavy

1031
00:58:06.159 --> 00:58:09.599
<v Speaker 2>on irony and understatement. She would write as if the

1032
00:58:09.679 --> 00:58:12.119
<v Speaker 2>case were already obvious and the reader merely needed to

1033
00:58:12.159 --> 00:58:15.079
<v Speaker 2>stop pretending otherwise. And so the beginning of it would

1034
00:58:15.079 --> 00:58:18.079
<v Speaker 2>be let us begin by dispensing with the sentimental confusion

1035
00:58:18.159 --> 00:58:22.280
<v Speaker 2>that so often cloud's modern governance. The insurress. The Insurrection

1036
00:58:22.480 --> 00:58:25.519
<v Speaker 2>Act was not written to flatter governors, nor to provide

1037
00:58:25.559 --> 00:58:29.000
<v Speaker 2>them with emotional support animals during moments of civic stress.

1038
00:58:29.760 --> 00:58:31.719
<v Speaker 2>I think, actually, look, we sho would do better than that.

1039
00:58:31.840 --> 00:58:34.360
<v Speaker 2>But that's not bad for first try out by chat GBT.

1040
00:58:34.440 --> 00:58:35.400
<v Speaker 2>It's got a bit you can't you.

1041
00:58:35.519 --> 00:58:39.360
<v Speaker 1>Imagine what I'd say to that retard. I'd say retard.

1042
00:58:39.719 --> 00:58:42.440
<v Speaker 1>I'd say you're a retard for retardless. Ye, That's what

1043
00:58:42.519 --> 00:58:43.079
<v Speaker 1>I would say.

1044
00:58:44.599 --> 00:58:47.440
<v Speaker 3>That would be the most interesting federal indictment in the

1045
00:58:47.559 --> 00:58:48.440
<v Speaker 3>history of the bumper.

1046
00:58:48.880 --> 00:58:52.119
<v Speaker 2>That's right anyway, Bye, everybody, thanks for tuning in. Yeah,

1047
00:58:52.199 --> 00:58:54.480
<v Speaker 2>Gora maybe someday in iceblell have a meet up, but

1048
00:58:54.599 --> 00:58:55.559
<v Speaker 2>I'd love to never.

1049
00:58:55.719 --> 00:58:57.000
<v Speaker 3>I've never stepped on foot.

1050
00:58:56.840 --> 00:58:59.880
<v Speaker 2>In isolated islands. Glorious John, it's not that cool.

1051
00:59:00.039 --> 00:59:02.960
<v Speaker 3>Support, it's not it's thanks.

1052
00:59:08.159 --> 00:59:11.039
<v Speaker 2>He's falling on the knife and criss cracks.

1053
00:59:11.079 --> 00:59:12.599
<v Speaker 1>One Genmen join me here.

1054
00:59:13.079 --> 00:59:16.920
<v Speaker 3>Here's my nice stride, pride, laps and full night.

1055
00:59:17.039 --> 00:59:20.880
<v Speaker 2>I'm my brown. My double wots. He's falling on the

1056
00:59:21.239 --> 00:59:22.480
<v Speaker 2>icy rises cracks.

1057
00:59:22.519 --> 00:59:27.440
<v Speaker 3>One Gemen join me here, my last pride.

1058
00:59:27.519 --> 00:59:28.400
<v Speaker 1>Last a full night.

1059
00:59:28.519 --> 00:59:29.400
<v Speaker 3>I'm not proud.

1060
00:59:29.639 --> 00:59:56.880
<v Speaker 2>My double wants to pull me down. Ricochet join the conversation.