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Speaker 1: Hi everybody, and welcome to the Kylie Cast. I'm Kylie Griswold,

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Managing editor at The Federalist. Please like and subscribe wherever

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So if you are only subscribed to The Federalist Radio Hour,

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you never miss an episode and then leave us a

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five star review. It is one of the easiest and

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best ways that you can help promote the show, and

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YouTube channel or the Federalists channel on Rumble, and then

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of course like and subscribe there too. If you'd like

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to email the show, you can do so at radio

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at the Federalist dot com. I would love to hear

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from you today. I am so happy to welcome to

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the show. Frank DeVito. Frank is Senior counsel and Director

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of Content at the NAPA Institute, but today he joins

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me in his personal capacity as the author of the

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brand new book jd Vance and the Future of the

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Republican Party. Frank and I dive into jd Vance's faith,

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his views on abortion and what that will look like

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in a future Republican Party, as well as all of

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the ways that libertarianism and fusionism have failed the Republican

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Party and conservatism generally. So, without further ado, please welcome

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to the show, Frank DeVito. Frank Devido, thank you so

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much for coming on the Kylie Cast.

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Speaker 2: Oh thanks for having me. It's a pleasure.

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Speaker 1: It was a pleasure to read your book, so I'm

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so excited to get the chance to talk about it

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and to talk about Jade Vance. This is a little

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bit topically different from some of the things we've covered

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on this show before, but certainly something that's on the

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minds of a lot of people as we head into

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the midterms and then, I mean, twenty twenty eight is

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going to come at us quickly, so I think a

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lot of people are wondering kind of what a post

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Trump America looks like and will it look a lot

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like Trump or will it look very different from that?

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And you approach some of these themes in your book,

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jd Vance in the future of the Republican Party. So

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let's just start from the very beginning. Why don't you

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tell the listeners kind of what led you to write

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this book.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, thank you.

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Speaker 3: So I think the main reason is probably what you

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identify like this is coming right, jd Vance's I mean

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I started. I think I thought of the idea right

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right after the election in twenty twenty four, and my

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thinking was kind of this. So the importance of jd

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Vance to me is obvious. Right when Trump was picking

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his VP, he could have picked somebody who checked a

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demographic box, right.

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Speaker 2: He could have picked a woman.

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Speaker 3: He could have picked a black man or a Latino,

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somebody who would kind of try to garner votes from

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a certain demographic. He could have picked a vice president

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from an important swing state. But instead he picks this,

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you know, young white Christian guy from a safe red

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state in Ohio. To me, there's no other good reason

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that I can see except you're picking a potential successor

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to your presidency and to the MAGA movement, right or else?

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Speaker 2: Why would you pick him?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 2: There are better choices if you're trying to bring.

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Speaker 3: In new demographics or to win the election, so to me,

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it was just instantly it's Vance's race to lose for

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twenty twenty eight.

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Speaker 2: I think he's the heir apparent, if you want to

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use that term. And I think.

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Speaker 3: Since I started writing the book and finish the book

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and now publish the book, I think that's confirmed. I

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won't say that it's a sure thing, but he is

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certainly the front runner, and by huge margins. And so

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the first reason was simply I think Vance is probably

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going to be the presidential nominee for the Republican Party

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in twenty twenty eight, and therefore should write a book

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about him, right, But I think it was also particularly

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interesting to me as like a kind of conservative nerd,

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you know, I write in this space of conservative culture

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and religion and policy and legal issues.

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Speaker 2: And things like that.

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Speaker 3: And so normally, when you're profiling or studying a political

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figure right on the American scene who's like a potential

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presidential candidate, I don't want to say it's kind of boring,

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but you don't have a lot of like really deep

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intellectual stuff. You're going off campaign speeches and the typical

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stuff that politicians do. But Vance kind of came up

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as like one of my people right, like the conservative

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intellectual nerds.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: He wrote the Hillbilly Elogy memoir that made him famous,

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of course, but then right after that, when he became

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a household names, he's writing op eds. I'm really interesting

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matters of politics and policy. He writes a long form

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essay at the Lamp about his conversion to Catholicism. He's

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really high level engaging with matters of political philosophy at

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places like the Intercollegiate Studies Institute, the American Conservative. So

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he's just a much more interesting politician from my perspective

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to write about. If you really want to dive in

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and see what does this person say, what does he think?

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What has been his kind of his consistent prior through

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a decade of being a very public figure, even before

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he was a political candidate.

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Speaker 2: To me, that was really interesting.

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Speaker 3: So you have the personal interest, you have the obviously

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he's going to be important, but I think he's important

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not just because he's a future presidential contender, but he's

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a presidential contender at a really important time in the.

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Speaker 2: History of the Republican Party.

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Speaker 3: Right, So what the Republican Party looked like in twenty fifteen,

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the day before Trump came down the escalator to the

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day to today in twenty twenty six, completely different, right,

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the policy priorities, the tone, the awareness of what time

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it is in America, if you will, the voters who

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make up the Republican Party, everything's completely different.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: Trump has realigned in in a way transformed the Republican Party.

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So there are new alignments of voters, of policy issues,

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of all of this to contend with. But Trump is

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a unique, like enigmatic figure, right if Trump's person, his charisma,

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his style, like he has been very clearly the head

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of this movement as it's completely shifted the Republican Party.

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So as he goes away, now he's a lame duck president,

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he's in his last couple of years of his term.

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And therefore, of his influence over the Republican Party, what

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direction the party takes after Trumpe, It's an open question

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and those are.

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Speaker 2: Big shoes to fill.

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Speaker 3: And so I think who that successor is makes more

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of a difference than your normal presidential primary campaign.

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Speaker 2: So for all those reasons.

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Speaker 3: Like somebody's people are going to write books about vance

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Hillbilly elegy is his story, but it's definitely not the

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last word on who this guy is as potentially our

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future president and leader of the party, and I just figured.

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Speaker 2: I would do it first.

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Speaker 3: I had the idea right after the twenty twenty four elections,

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so well, let's see if I can be first to

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the party here and write something influential on the topic. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well, and it really is a great collection of his

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essays and ideas and just a place to find kind

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of where he aligns ideologically in one space. Very helpful.

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I think a lot of Trump voters breathed a collective

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sigh of relief when Trump picked Vance as his running me,

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partly because I think there was a lot of confidence

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going into that election that you actually don't need to

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do as much coalition building, like the coalition is here,

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we don't need to try to, you know, pick a

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token candidate to appeal to some random demographic like of

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course Trump needed a vice president Pence figure in twenty sixteen,

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which I think you also talk about in your book.

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But by twenty twenty and then twenty twenty four, you know,

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he had already sort of locked down the base of

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Christian support at least as much as he was ever

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going to, and so he didn't really need that, and

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I just think there was this sigh of relief because

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it's like the Trump Maga movement is not actually just

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a Trump movement. It's an America First movement that will

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hopefully long outlive Trump. And I think that was a

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big relief to many people. And I think too, like

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I actually read your book in tandem with Hillbilly Elegy

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because I had never read that book. I was familiar,

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so familiar with it just because of the work that

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I do, but but I was like, I've never actually

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sat down and read this book. So I'm gonna I'm

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gonna read both of these and it's just so interesting

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because I know one critique of Trump is that he

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has this populist rhetoric and he seems to get you know,

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blue collar Middle America workers. But JD. Vance gets gets

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them because he actually grew up among them, and it's

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just a very different it's a way more relatable, tangible thing,

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even if you didn't grow up in you know, Appalasia

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as a hillbilly family. There's this sense that here's this

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guy who grew up even worse than I grew up,

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who can actually get the plight of these people who

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have seen their towns hollowed out when manufacturing was offshot,

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and he's just such a unique figure in that way

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to even to even maybe supersede Trump in many ways

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as we as we move forward with the New Right.

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I want to dive right into some of the ideas

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in your book. You talk about this concept that Jade

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Vance actually talks about in hill Billy Elegy, which is

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brain drain and how people move from their talents. They

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go get degrees, they get credentialed, they basically become part

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of the elite class, and then they leave and they

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essentially contribute to the hollowing out of their communities by

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taking their talents and their intellect elsewhere. And I would

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love if you could kind of explain a little bit

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more about that and the way that jd Vance thinks

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about it, but also just whether jd Vance's ideas about

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that are sort of a rebuke to the current Ben

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Shapiro way of thinking of the just move ethos that

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like that communities don't matter that much, that if you

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can't afford to live where you want to live, the

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solution is just to take your talents and yourself elsewhere.

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What do you think about that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: When I was in law school, there were a couple

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of libertarian speakers who would The phrase they use was

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vote with your feet, right, if you're in like a

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blue state that's taxing you to death and there are

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no prospects, then vote.

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Speaker 2: With your fee.

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Speaker 3: You make your thoughts known by going to a red

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state that has better prospects. And I think that's just

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an I've written on this before this book. This is

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just a grossly inhuman way to live, this kind of

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global take that we you know, we have cars and

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airplanes and so you just go wherever. But kind of

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a central tenet I think of being human is that

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we are from a place, right, So there are obviously

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reasons to move, right, like one of them is being

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elected vice president, or you have to be in DC,

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even if you're from Ohio. Yes, sure, not saying this

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is an absolute nobody should ever move, but I think

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it should be the norm. I think the norm should

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be you're from a place, These are your people, this

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is your extended family, this is your community. And it's

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not good for individuals to uproot and be somewhere where

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they're not divorced from, not just like their extended family

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and the community that they grew up around. But the

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multi generational effect of that right to build really deep

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cultural trust. It's really important when you have these churches,

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these neighborhoods where generations have been there, right, you know

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your neighbors, you know them, but also like your parents

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knew their parents, or your grandparents knew their grandparents. This

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kind of this build a trust that's that's really important.

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And I think about it in our own church community

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here in Pennsylvania where I'm where I live, and it's

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just created something so powerful when people have the intention

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of I'm going to be rooted here. This is where

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I'm going to raise my kids. This is where I'm

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going to hopefully raise my kids to stay when they

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grow up. You have these communities that have known each

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other for generations, so there are potential marriages, friendships. Business

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people do business with each other because they you know,

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if I need if I need a plumber, if I

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need a doctor, if I need an electrician.

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Speaker 2: We pretty much.

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Speaker 3: Everybody we patronize is from our parish. This is a

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really important cultural fix, right, So it's important for building

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healthy American communities, but and it's also healthy and better

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for individuals So to go back to vance the brain

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drain thing, it's it's a disaster for communities but also

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for the individuals who are are sucked up into it.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: So just to use like one particular example, if you

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have somebody from middle pick pick a state in the

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middle of the country, right from Arkansas, really smart, really talented,

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naturally gifted, gets a scholarship and gets to.

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Speaker 2: Go to Yale, right, and now you're a Yale grad.

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Speaker 3: So the sky's the limit and every cultural force right

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is going to tell you. Everybody you've met at Yale,

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the professors, the peers, the recruiting companies that are on

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the campus, you're going to tell you you're going to

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go back to your little town in the middle of

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nowhere county in Arkansas. I mean, you can make all

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these millions, you can go whatever consult for McKenzie, You

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can go to law school, and you can be in

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one of the big white shoe law firms in Boston or.

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Speaker 2: New York or DC. Why would you ever want to

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go back to Arkansas?

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Speaker 3: And what this does is, for one, obviously it's bad

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for that town in Arkansas who just lost one of

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their most gifted people who could be right mayor or

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a huge business owner who could help revitalize that town,

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that county.

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Speaker 2: But it's also bad for the person because.

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Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, it's alluring the white shoe law firms

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and the big consulting firms, but being a cog in

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the wheel of one of these mega corporations in a big,

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nameless city where you don't know anybody, and the policies

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are terrible and it's busy and crowded and expensive, Like

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I think most people would probably actually be happier going

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back to their town and their family and their community

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and being a force for good in like a normal place.

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So you can definitely see vance advocates for this that

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this is a huge thing that we need for cultural

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renewal of the forgotten Middle American towns and counties and states.

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And he's also lived it pretty vocally himself, right, he

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did the Marine Corps and then he did Yell Law School,

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and then he was in Silicon Valley for I know

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what it was, maybe a year or two. I mean,

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he writes this op ed about why he goes back

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to Ohio, and this was well before he announces a

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Senate run. And he goes and he opens a fund

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in Cincinnati and Ohio, where he's from, and he makes

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just this case. He's like, I've seen you know, Yale,

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and I've seen Silicon Valley, and these people are just

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living this existence that's just so divorced from all the

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people that I grew up with.

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Speaker 2: You know, He's talking.

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Speaker 3: About families in Silicon Valley and how hopeful and optimistic

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they are for the future and for their kids and

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their financial prospects and all of this stuff. He's like,

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this is nothing like right, the divorced, dysfunctional, messy, drug addicted,

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unemployed people that I grew up around. And there was

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just such a huge disconnect between the elites that he

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was living around and the people that he grew up

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with that he he chose the people he grew up

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with and went back to try to do some good

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in the place where he's.

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Speaker 1: From, and then ended up doing that in many ways

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by being elected to the Senate to represent the interests

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of these people that are are legitimately his community, They're

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his people. Yeah, can you talk a little bit about

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Vance's poisoned Garden analogy what it means and then also

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just kind of how that idea informs his adoption of

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a more muscular conservatism. I know there's a lot of

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debate right now about what conservative, what conservatism should look like.

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Should we use power? Should we not? Of course Jade

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Vance has a very specific take on that. But how

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does this idea of the poisoned Garden inform that view?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I would I think even the poison Garden

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gives you a particular like the time and place in

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America maybe warrant different government action. But I would just

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back up and say, at least for myself, and I

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think Bance shares at least some of these instincts, is

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that we've been dominated by a fusionist platform in the

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Republican Party since probably at least the nineteen sixties, right

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the Goldwater era, where basically libertarians who are very skeptical

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of government power for almost any purpose, right and social conservatives,

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and then like anti communist talks where all this kind

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of this alliance, and it was assumed that this was

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just kind of a cohesive thing, like this is conservatism,

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this mix of libertarianism and anti communism and all that.

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And so what I think we've lost is this kind

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of classical understanding that man is a political animal. Right,

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government is a natural thing, right in civilized in a society,

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when men are living in the same place, you're just

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naturally going to have government.

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Speaker 2: It's not this this.

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Speaker 3: Artificial thing that social contract, you know, we agree to

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like form these communities. Now, anywhere there are people, there's

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going to be some kind of government, and that exists

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to promote the common goods that people can live in

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peaceful ordered societies. The idea that libertarianism like hands off,

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keep the government out of everything, is conservatism is incorrect.

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So I just want to make that point. That's my point,

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not Vance's per se.

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Speaker 2: But I think that the.

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Speaker 3: Poison garden analogy is really important to kind of maybe

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bring those who are libertarian leaning along to realize how

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inadequate that response is to the current moment, even for

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people who maintain very strong limited or anti government sentiments.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 3: So Vance writes this poison garden analogy. It's a little

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like paragraph or two in his forward to Kevin Roberts's

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book that came out pretty recently, where he basically says, Okay,

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imagine a garden. Right, you have this garden, and you

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in a healthy garden, right, the soil is healthy, the

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rain is good, the sun is good, everything is working.

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The gardener's job is pretty limited, right, some weeds you

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make sure the sunlight and the rain or you know,

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everything's irrigated. But the job of the gardener is not

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very interventionist, right, There's not much that he has to

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do for the garden to prosper.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: But then you take the trigger happy gardener if you will.

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Who's like, all right, well, if we add fertilizers and

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we add you know, pesticides and all this stuff, then

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we can we can make the garden better. Right, Less

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less vegetation is going to die. So you add, and

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then you add, and then you add, and pretty soon

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you've poisoned the garden. Right, So you have this soil

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that's now corrupted, nutrient depleted, literally poisoned. At that point,

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you can't just remove the intervention, right. It's not enough

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to say, okay, gardener, you're intervening in too many places.

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Pull out, right, stop adding pesticide, stop adding poison. Just

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go back to your limited role of pull a few

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weeds and let the sunshine in the rain, and because

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now the thing is poisoned. Right, So this is the

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analogy and I maybe take it a little farther than advance,

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but I think what he's doing here is really instructive,

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is that at this point, if the government is the gardener,

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and our institutions and our whole American culture is the garden,

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it's poisoned. It's poisoned by liberalism.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: So like all of our institutions are deeply infected. Right,

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the administrative state is so filled with career employees who

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are going to thwart any administration that they don't like.

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Speaker 2: Our media, as you well know, is.

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Speaker 3: Pretty strongly in the grips of leftist at least mainstream media.

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The corporations, the school systems, the universities. Everything is so

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poisoned that it's not enough in this era to say, okay, gardener,

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just stop the intervention, stop the big government.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: If we have this world where like Facebook and Google

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are arguably more powerful than most nation states, right, and

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the school systems, the media, there is so much influenced

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by these organizations that are not the federal government that

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to just say we need to go back to limited

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principles of government. Right, Private enterprise rain, let local government

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solutions rain. Get the government out of all of these things.

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That's not going to solve our problems. At least that's

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the argument. There's just there's too much here that is

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poisoned that simply telling the government don't act is not

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It's not going to fix what ails us. It might

401
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it might help in some areas where the federal government

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is aiding in bad things, but ultimately there are places

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where I think it's legitimate. And also it's it's perhaps

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necessary for the federal government to actually act instead of

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just removing itself from things if we're going to get

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anything like a return to sane, healthy institutions.

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Speaker 1: Right right, And I think his analogy is very apt.

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But then you take it one step further and you

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write about libertarianism a little bit and freedom and what

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that freedom should be and what it's not freedom to do.

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And I just want to read a couple quick passages

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from your book here. Actually they're not quick, they're a

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little bit long, but I think they're so good and

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they really stood out to me. So just against this

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idea of libertarianism being the solution to our culture woes.

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The freedom to choose is not itself the good that

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society exists to foster. It should be fairly obvious that

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not all free choices are good choices. Why are we

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free to own guns? Not because freedom to own guns

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is good, but because it is good to fulfill one's

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duty to defend one's family and one's neighbors from evil.

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We value free speech in order that truth might be spoken.

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We value religious freedom so that people might worship God

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in spirit and in truth. Freedom is so important because

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of the good things it allows us to choose, not

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because it is good in itself, so so important, And

427
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then you continue, Yes, freedom and individual choice are important.

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But if freedom is put on a pedestal as a

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good in itself, we are often choosing to leave people

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in communities lacking good jobs, ravaged by drugs, and torn

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apart by these political decisions for so called freedom. That's,

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of course, exactly what we saw in Vance's book. These

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are political decisions, not requirements of freedom. Leaving individ jewels

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and communities subject to the choices of drug companies and

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transnational corporations is a political choice. Allowing private actors to

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make decisions that are bad for many people in the

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name of freedom does not leave Americans with very good

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options from which to freely choose. Freedom for its own

439
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sake is not conservative. Say it again, Freedom for it's

440
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own sake is not conservative. It is not necessary or

441
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inevitable for conservatives to always choose freedom over government action. Excellent.

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I think you just took Vance's ideas and just expanded

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upon them. But I thought that was really good. And yeah,

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I wasn't expecting to get into such a good exposition

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of libertarian libertarianism in the book, So thank you for

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writing all of that.

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Speaker 3: It's right, thank you. Yeah, I think it's just worth

448
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pointing out. And this is one of my greater issues

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in the other things that I write, certainly in the book,

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that I think a lot of people are stuck in

451
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a libertarian and beyond that, like a kind of neoliberal

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framework where we look at every political problem, every political

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issue in a very narrow historical lens, as if like

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the there was no history of political thought before eighteen

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hundred or pick your time.

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Speaker 2: And I think it's really toxic.

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Speaker 3: I think this idea that freedom from government intrusion is

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itself a good and is a really problematic thing. I

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think there are a lot of places where practically it

460
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is just good to have more freedom rather than more

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government intervention because certain freedoms we'd rather allow more of them,

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like a little more speech, a little more religious exercise,

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even if it's leading people to say or worship in

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false ways, because when the government puts its hands on

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the scale, it usually makes things worse, or a lot

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of time it does. So it's a good practical argument.

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I just think it's really important to keep that in mind,

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that we might want more freedom because we don't trust

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the government, but that let's not make that into a

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conservative principle, that freedom from government isn't intrinsic good because it.

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Speaker 1: Isn't correct, or that the things that we call free

472
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are actually free. For instance, a lot of libertarians will

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point to free markets. Well, the markets that we have

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now are really not free at all, so we're not

475
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even working within a free framework. So let's talk about

476
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Trump a little bit. I know, one of the key

477
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criticisms that I've often hurled at, that I've often seen

478
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hurled at jd. Vance is that he is a Trump

479
00:23:09,839 --> 00:23:12,200
flip flopper, that he was never Trump and he only

480
00:23:12,279 --> 00:23:14,200
is now pro Trump so that he could get in

481
00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:17,000
Trump's good graces and look, it worked. You know, YadA, YadA.

482
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:23,079
Can you explain why Vance did evolve from being never

483
00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:26,440
Trump to pro Trump and why, unlike many of the

484
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:28,640
people in Congress or people who were never Trump and

485
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:31,440
then oh magically had an epiphany internet pro Trump, why

486
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:34,079
Vance is not hypocritical in that same way.

487
00:23:34,839 --> 00:23:35,200
Speaker 2: Yeah.

488
00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:37,200
Speaker 3: Well, one thing that I'll start with and then i'll

489
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:39,839
actually I'll go into the core of the question is,

490
00:23:40,519 --> 00:23:42,720
first of all, people who throw that Advance that he

491
00:23:42,799 --> 00:23:46,319
flip flopped on Trump for political expediency, like, come on now,

492
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:47,960
because a lot of the people who are saying that

493
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,039
and like targeting Vans are also in the wings saying

494
00:23:51,039 --> 00:23:53,240
it shouldn't be Vances, it should be Rubio in twenty

495
00:23:53,279 --> 00:23:55,440
twenty eight. And I like Marco Rubio, so this is

496
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:56,880
not a shot at him, but come on, I mean,

497
00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:00,880
Rubio was like the public fights between Trump and Rubio

498
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:02,680
in the twenty sixteen primary were.

499
00:24:02,559 --> 00:24:04,480
Speaker 2: Extraordinary and kind of entertaining.

500
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:08,279
Speaker 3: And now Rubio is like one of the most revered,

501
00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:11,799
talented Trump acolytes in the administration. Right, So I mean,

502
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:14,599
this is everybody. The reality is when one person dominates

503
00:24:14,599 --> 00:24:16,559
the party and you're part of the party, of course

504
00:24:16,559 --> 00:24:19,480
there's going to be some realignment behind Trump going on.

505
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:21,960
But that being said, yeah, there are a lot of

506
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:26,039
people who frankly would like to just pretend that they

507
00:24:26,039 --> 00:24:29,079
were never virulently never Trump anti Trump, and that they've

508
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:31,279
always been maga and like, what are you talking about?

509
00:24:31,039 --> 00:24:35,279
Don't bring up my past right before Trump? Vance has

510
00:24:35,279 --> 00:24:37,759
acknowledged it. Yeah, the interview you're referring to, think it

511
00:24:37,759 --> 00:24:39,680
was that New York Times interview that he did in

512
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:42,319
late twenty twenty four where he talks about this in

513
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:44,920
some depth. And I thought it was a really insightful

514
00:24:45,079 --> 00:24:49,319
answer as to how Vance pivoted on Trump. Not just

515
00:24:49,559 --> 00:24:51,200
as a defense of Vance, but I think it's a

516
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,480
really good articulation of the kind of Trump versus never

517
00:24:54,559 --> 00:24:57,480
Trump divide and the Republican Party today. And so what

518
00:24:57,599 --> 00:25:01,000
Vance says basically is that what he can about, like

519
00:25:01,079 --> 00:25:03,640
his core policy commitments haven't really changed. How do we

520
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,519
make America better for as many common Americans so that

521
00:25:07,559 --> 00:25:10,759
they can get married, have kids, raise kids, and support

522
00:25:10,759 --> 00:25:13,279
a family on a meaningful income from meaningful work. How

523
00:25:13,319 --> 00:25:15,480
do we make the American dream accessible for as many

524
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:16,440
people as possible.

525
00:25:16,519 --> 00:25:17,359
Speaker 2: It's what he wanted in.

526
00:25:17,319 --> 00:25:19,599
Speaker 3: Twenty sixteen, it's still what he wants in twenty twenty

527
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,559
six So what changed, he says, And I think he's

528
00:25:22,599 --> 00:25:24,119
I think he's being honest here, and I think it's

529
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:27,519
very convincing. Is I didn't change on politics. I didn't

530
00:25:27,599 --> 00:25:31,119
change on my primary policy commitments. What I changed on

531
00:25:31,799 --> 00:25:35,680
is my view of American institutions and how bad they are.

532
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:38,519
Speaker 2: Right, that's the crux of the argument, he says.

533
00:25:38,559 --> 00:25:41,279
Speaker 3: Listen, in twenty sixteen, you know, Vance was young, he

534
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:44,519
was kind of a new figure on the political conservative

535
00:25:44,559 --> 00:25:48,200
intellectual scene, and he was fairly optimistic about America, about

536
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:52,440
its institutions, and the idea is kind of okay institutionally,

537
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,160
America's maybe not in the best place. Things have swung

538
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:57,680
kind of to the left, but these things happen and

539
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:01,559
hopefully they'll swing back toward the right. Basically, things aren't great,

540
00:26:01,599 --> 00:26:03,200
but they're not decaying.

541
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:03,640
Speaker 4: Right.

542
00:26:04,039 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 3: If that's your pretty optimistic view of America, that our

543
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,319
institutions are intact. We need to do some work to

544
00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:12,640
get better candidates and reform some stuff, but we're in

545
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:16,720
okay shape, then then Trump is like a terror right.

546
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:20,240
He's like dropping bombs for no reason. Right, Like, who

547
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:24,000
is this caustic, bombastic person who's like firing people up

548
00:26:24,039 --> 00:26:26,599
and telling them that, you know, things are terrible and we.

549
00:26:26,559 --> 00:26:29,519
Speaker 2: Don't need this. This is toxic. Right. But so that's

550
00:26:29,599 --> 00:26:31,440
pretty much where Vance was early on.

551
00:26:31,599 --> 00:26:33,200
Speaker 3: And then what he says is as time goes on

552
00:26:33,319 --> 00:26:35,240
is he gets more involved in the political scene and

553
00:26:35,279 --> 00:26:38,240
is writing and commenting and thinking through all of these

554
00:26:38,279 --> 00:26:42,400
political questions. He actually starts to come around to actually,

555
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,720
you know, I'm interacting with the school system and the

556
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:48,400
corporate elite and the Silicon Valley tech elite, right, and

557
00:26:48,839 --> 00:26:49,960
the university system.

558
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:51,640
Speaker 2: He goes to Yale, he does all these things.

559
00:26:51,799 --> 00:26:54,200
Speaker 3: He gets a lot more exposure to the institutions and

560
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:57,799
then particularly focused on the institutions of government, and starts

561
00:26:57,839 --> 00:27:01,000
to realize, actually, maybe it does look more like the

562
00:27:01,039 --> 00:27:03,440
eleventh hour, Like maybe things are really as bad as

563
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,079
Trump said, Like maybe maybe a lot of our institutions

564
00:27:06,079 --> 00:27:09,319
are actually so bad that they can barely be recaptured.

565
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:11,079
Maybe we need to rebuild things, Maybe we need to

566
00:27:11,079 --> 00:27:14,920
blow a lot of stuff up figuratively. Yeah, maybe maybe

567
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:17,440
this maybe Trump was right, Like if things are as

568
00:27:17,519 --> 00:27:20,480
bad as the Maga folks say they are, then actually

569
00:27:20,519 --> 00:27:25,960
Trump's responses are maybe warranted, right, And so I think

570
00:27:26,039 --> 00:27:29,079
like I said, I think that explains vance's changed. It's like, Okay,

571
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,599
I think Trump is necessary. I think Trump is right.

572
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:35,319
I did because I've woken up to how bad things are.

573
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,319
I think that's legitimate. But I think it also if

574
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:40,720
you look at, like anyone listening to this or you Kylie,

575
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:44,920
think about like the never Trump Republican conservative folks.

576
00:27:44,559 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 2: That you know.

577
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:47,119
Speaker 3: I mean, some are just completely unhinged, but like there

578
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:49,759
are people who are in good faith, like they're they're smart,

579
00:27:49,799 --> 00:27:53,279
honest conservative people who really just cannot stand Trump and

580
00:27:53,319 --> 00:27:55,359
the MAGA movement. They think it's brought us away from

581
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:58,440
principled conservatism. Okay, and then think of the Maga folks

582
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:00,359
that you know, And I think this is a really

583
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,599
big difference. I think this actually is one of the

584
00:28:02,599 --> 00:28:07,039
good explaining criteria that can help us understand what's going

585
00:28:07,079 --> 00:28:08,880
on here, is that if you look at those never

586
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:13,440
Trump kind of folks who are actually conservatives, they think

587
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:15,559
that he's the wrong solution because they don't see that

588
00:28:15,599 --> 00:28:17,319
the problem is that bad. It's like, yeah, I mean,

589
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:20,319
we need to do better. We need more conservative people

590
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:24,039
in government, we need more conservative journalists and professors.

591
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:27,839
Speaker 2: But what like what Trump is pitching this is toxic.

592
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:31,000
But if you think that the institutions.

593
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:32,359
Speaker 3: Really are as bad, then you're a lot more likely

594
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,599
to accept Trump and MAGA as the correct medicine for

595
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:36,400
what ails.

596
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 1: Us right, which I think is why over time so

597
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,640
many people have joined the Trump coalition who were not

598
00:28:42,839 --> 00:28:45,640
initially in it. And it's because different things open your

599
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,480
eyes to how corrupt these institutions are. You know, many

600
00:28:48,519 --> 00:28:52,799
people prior to COVID didn't understand how corrupt government public

601
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:56,079
schools were because they weren't looking over their child's shoulder

602
00:28:56,079 --> 00:28:58,400
every day seeing the type of curriculum that they were

603
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:00,880
being exposed to. And that's just one or you know,

604
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,519
in the hospital system, you know, if you weren't really

605
00:29:03,559 --> 00:29:05,519
going to the doctor, you might not have noticed, like

606
00:29:05,599 --> 00:29:10,000
how politicized healthcare has become where now you can go

607
00:29:10,039 --> 00:29:12,119
and you're in a place that should be ruled one

608
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:14,240
hundred percent by science and instead they're asking you for

609
00:29:14,279 --> 00:29:16,079
your pronouns on the first form you fill out, you know,

610
00:29:16,319 --> 00:29:19,480
And so once you actually begin to see how broken

611
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,200
some of these institutions are, it makes Trump make a

612
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:26,880
lot more sense. And therefore, yeah, vance's political evolution as well.

613
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:28,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great point.

614
00:29:28,039 --> 00:29:29,759
Speaker 3: If I give one more example, because you're right on

615
00:29:29,799 --> 00:29:32,680
COVID opened a lot of minds to write how deeply

616
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:36,240
infected the schools were and the health system certainly. The

617
00:29:36,279 --> 00:29:38,599
other one too, I think was in twenty twenty was

618
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:42,160
the Floyd riots, right where like we're being told there's

619
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:44,880
a pandemic, stay at home, we can't spread this thing.

620
00:29:45,079 --> 00:29:46,720
But then all of a sudden there are like riots

621
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,160
in the streets and you have Democrat politicians coming out

622
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,680
and like marching with them, right, who were telling you

623
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:54,039
stay in your home, this is a pandemic and a crisis,

624
00:29:54,079 --> 00:29:58,160
but burned down the cities in the name of racial

625
00:29:58,319 --> 00:30:01,200
justice or something, and we're okay with that. Like police

626
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:04,000
forces are standing down, they're like no arrests being made.

627
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:06,799
It's like, yeah, something, something is deeply wrong, I think

628
00:30:06,839 --> 00:30:09,839
twenty twenty. And then the trans movement also the in

629
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,880
the that peaked probably in twenty two to twenty three, really.

630
00:30:12,799 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 2: Woke a lot of people up to how bad things are.

631
00:30:15,279 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, screaming in the face of a police officer

632
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:20,160
is an essential thing that needs to happen. But your

633
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,160
church choir is a super spreader, So stay home yes.

634
00:30:23,119 --> 00:30:32,240
Speaker 4: Yes, do not believe government numbers? The Watch Doot on

635
00:30:32,279 --> 00:30:35,400
Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski. Every day Chris helps

636
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,039
unpack the connection between politics and the economy and how

637
00:30:38,079 --> 00:30:41,200
it affects your wallet. It's not just about the CPI

638
00:30:41,319 --> 00:30:44,759
inflation numbers. Government is now saying health insurance is down

639
00:30:44,799 --> 00:30:48,440
by nineteen percent over the last five years. Does anybody

640
00:30:48,519 --> 00:30:50,799
believe that, whether it's happening in DC or down on

641
00:30:50,839 --> 00:30:53,480
Wall Street, it's affecting you financially? Be informed? Check out

642
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the Watchdot on Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski on Apple, Spotify,

643
00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:02,640
or wherever you get your podcasts.

644
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 1: Since we're still kind of on the Trump trade, let's

645
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,480
talk Trump versus Vance on abortion and maybe in light

646
00:31:09,519 --> 00:31:11,200
of the March for Life, we're just coming off of that,

647
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:14,000
you know, maybe maybe that speaks to some of this.

648
00:31:14,119 --> 00:31:17,440
But you write a little bit about this in the book.

649
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,720
How are Trump advanced the same on abortion? And do

650
00:31:20,799 --> 00:31:24,279
you think, I mean, how are they different? And can

651
00:31:24,319 --> 00:31:29,319
conservatives trust Dvance more then they can trust you know,

652
00:31:29,359 --> 00:31:33,039
a transactional second term Trump on this issue moving forward?

653
00:31:33,759 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 2: Yeah?

654
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:36,480
Speaker 3: So I mean, I for what I would say, yes,

655
00:31:36,599 --> 00:31:38,359
So I think what first of all, what did Trump

656
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:40,680
and Advance have in common? I would say that they're

657
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:46,799
both political realists who are very skeptical of how much

658
00:31:46,839 --> 00:31:50,039
can be done to advance the pro life agenda, especially

659
00:31:50,079 --> 00:31:53,519
with federal legislation in the current culture. And like I've

660
00:31:53,519 --> 00:31:56,200
done some writing on this, actually you're the Federalists published

661
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:58,000
my piece on the March for Life that I wrote

662
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:00,799
just depending on when this drop's probably about a week ago,

663
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,960
and I think it, well, it woke Vance up when

664
00:32:05,039 --> 00:32:09,200
he saw the Ohio referendum just becut be a disaster.

665
00:32:10,079 --> 00:32:12,319
But also you look at the cultural numbers, right, Like

666
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:15,319
there's a Pew study from I think twenty twenty four

667
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:19,160
that shows like barely a majority of Republicans are in

668
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,359
favor of restricting abortion in most or all cases. So

669
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:24,559
you combine that with the Democrat numbers total number of

670
00:32:24,599 --> 00:32:28,319
people willing to restrict abortion in most or all circumstances,

671
00:32:28,359 --> 00:32:32,279
you're like thirty percent maybe, And so I think it

672
00:32:32,359 --> 00:32:36,640
is not it's not caving on this issue to say

673
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:41,079
there is very little that can be done here. So

674
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:43,960
I want to make a couple points on this, if

675
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,640
you don't mind, because I think it's a really important issue. So,

676
00:32:46,839 --> 00:32:51,240
for one, for the non compromising pro life people on

677
00:32:51,279 --> 00:32:53,839
this issue who are very critical of the Trump Vance administration.

678
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,359
For one, I feel you like I'm I'm a Catholic.

679
00:32:57,440 --> 00:32:59,880
I've been spit at and cursed at it, praying at

680
00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:03,359
abortion clinics, like I'm part of the part of the

681
00:33:03,359 --> 00:33:06,519
movement here, and I would like to see abortion completely gone.

682
00:33:06,839 --> 00:33:07,720
Speaker 2: The problem is, and.

683
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,039
Speaker 3: I'll credit my friend Ryan Anderson at the Ethics and

684
00:33:10,079 --> 00:33:13,200
Public Policy Center made this point at an event before

685
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:15,400
the march that I was at last week, or he said, listen,

686
00:33:15,839 --> 00:33:19,400
if the abolitionists of abortion could get what they want

687
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:23,359
and ban it tomorrow, it's not going to hold in

688
00:33:23,359 --> 00:33:26,240
this culture like when What we've seen from the polling,

689
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,960
what we've seen from referenda, even in deeply read states,

690
00:33:29,039 --> 00:33:32,000
is that people have been conditioned by forty nine years

691
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:34,960
of row to take abortion for granted as something that's

692
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:36,880
there if people want it.

693
00:33:37,039 --> 00:33:39,119
Speaker 2: Need it, quote unquote, and nobody needs abortion.

694
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 3: But if they have the choice between restrict most of

695
00:33:45,119 --> 00:33:48,119
all abortions or make abortion pretty much legal all the time,

696
00:33:48,319 --> 00:33:50,960
they're going to choose make abortion legal all the time.

697
00:33:51,039 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 2: Like people are.

698
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,039
Speaker 3: You can do some things to make some restrictions possible,

699
00:33:55,079 --> 00:33:56,920
but you go too far and the culture is just

700
00:33:57,039 --> 00:34:00,440
not there. The appetite for banning abortion, and even in

701
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:04,480
red states is not good. And what Ryan Anderson and

702
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:05,920
I had a back and forth about this the other

703
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,039
day where I said, you know, this has happened before,

704
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:14,960
where constitutionally there was a case where in our history

705
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:17,639
it was said that a certain class of persons is

706
00:34:17,679 --> 00:34:21,639
actually entitled to constitutional rights, and so you can't enslave

707
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:25,119
them or in this case, kill them without due process

708
00:34:25,119 --> 00:34:27,119
of law. Right, they're entitled to equal protection under the

709
00:34:27,119 --> 00:34:30,039
fourteenth Amendment. So I think that Ryan is right, and

710
00:34:30,079 --> 00:34:33,559
a lot of the scholars on this are right that

711
00:34:33,639 --> 00:34:37,840
Actually I think under the Fourteenth Amendment, unborn children are

712
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:41,639
properly persons that should not be denied life, liberty, or

713
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,519
property without due process. So I think constitutionally you can

714
00:34:44,559 --> 00:34:47,400
make the case that abortion is unconstitutional, it should not

715
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:50,719
be allowed anywhere because it's depriving unborn people of their rights.

716
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:54,280
But this happened in the eighteen fifties, right where Abraham

717
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:56,320
Lincoln gets on the stage with Stephen Douglass at the

718
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:59,119
debates and says, hold on, if the black man is

719
00:34:59,159 --> 00:35:01,880
a man, he's entitled to all the rights that men

720
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:06,239
have under the Constitution. That was constitutionally correct, but it

721
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:10,920
took a four year long war to actually iron that out.

722
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:13,599
So I think we need to understand in that case,

723
00:35:13,639 --> 00:35:17,199
it was even a war could be fought right because

724
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:20,320
the North was pretty much aligned behind abolition by the

725
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,960
time Lincoln is elected president. So I'm being a little

726
00:35:24,039 --> 00:35:26,079
round about, but I do it for a reason. Then

727
00:35:26,159 --> 00:35:29,119
there was actually an appetite for a civil war over

728
00:35:29,159 --> 00:35:31,360
that issue. Now I don't even think there is. I

729
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:33,679
think if tomorrow there were five votes on the US

730
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:34,559
Supreme Court, there.

731
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:36,360
Speaker 2: Are not, by the way, there might be two. But

732
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:37,559
if there were five votes to.

733
00:35:37,519 --> 00:35:40,559
Speaker 3: Say unborn child is a person under the fourteenth Amendment,

734
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:44,159
abortion is now banned in all circumstances across the board

735
00:35:44,679 --> 00:35:46,800
in all fifty states, I think you would see a

736
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:50,239
constitutional amendment to the United States Constitution that would enshrine abortion.

737
00:35:50,519 --> 00:35:53,440
I think it is that unpopular to completely restrict abortion.

738
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:56,039
That flies in the face of natural law. It's a sin,

739
00:35:56,159 --> 00:35:58,599
it's a crime, it's a terrible thing, but it is

740
00:35:58,639 --> 00:36:02,920
a political reality. So that's my kind of case to

741
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:05,920
the pro lifers that we do. I hate having to

742
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:08,360
be a political realist on the murder of unborn children.

743
00:36:08,559 --> 00:36:10,239
But I think we do because I don't see what

744
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:13,119
we can do otherwise in this climate. So sorry to

745
00:36:13,159 --> 00:36:14,559
take a lot of time on this, but I think

746
00:36:14,559 --> 00:36:15,320
it's worth saying.

747
00:36:16,079 --> 00:36:17,480
Speaker 1: No, I think it's super important.

748
00:36:17,639 --> 00:36:20,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, please go on.

749
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:22,320
Speaker 1: Oh No, I was just going to say, I think

750
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:24,480
there's two things that really frustrate me, and one of

751
00:36:24,519 --> 00:36:28,000
them is I mean, like, except the obvious of the

752
00:36:28,079 --> 00:36:30,400
murder of onborn children, also not having the right climate

753
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:33,599
to advance something that's much more pro life than what

754
00:36:33,639 --> 00:36:37,440
we're seeing now. But it's really frustrating to me how

755
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:42,880
much how much of an effort there was to overturn ROW.

756
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:46,119
I mean, we had fifty years of people fighting tooth

757
00:36:46,119 --> 00:36:49,840
and nail to get this overturned. Meanwhile, all the useful

758
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:53,039
people who were leaning on ROW because it allowed them

759
00:36:53,079 --> 00:36:55,199
to fight against something that they never thought was going

760
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:57,719
to be overturned. And so you know, once Roe was overturned,

761
00:36:57,840 --> 00:36:59,719
it kind of exposed a lot of pro life people

762
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:02,880
as now really pro life. They just, you know, because

763
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:04,599
it was convenient to be pro life, because there was

764
00:37:04,599 --> 00:37:06,360
nothing you could even do about being pro life because

765
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:09,320
Roe was there, you know, Row and Casey, and then

766
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:11,519
Roe gets overturned. And I think you even say this

767
00:37:11,599 --> 00:37:13,320
in the book about the dog catching the cars. It's

768
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:15,559
kind of like, you know, Republicans, conservatives were caught with

769
00:37:15,599 --> 00:37:18,159
their pants down because all of our resources, all of

770
00:37:18,159 --> 00:37:21,400
our time and energy was put toward you know, overturning

771
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:21,679
Roe v.

772
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:22,000
Speaker 3: Wade.

773
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:24,280
Speaker 1: Well, now we have a bunch of Americans who are

774
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:28,920
ticked about that and no real good messaging or policy

775
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,159
framework or anything. So you see all of these trigger

776
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:33,559
laws going to effect, you know, all kinds of stuff,

777
00:37:33,559 --> 00:37:35,760
and like the States weren't ready for it. You know,

778
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:37,320
it gets thrown back to the states, and the States

779
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:39,119
are just kind of like, uh, you know, and now

780
00:37:39,159 --> 00:37:41,639
we see you know, even more abortion than before. So

781
00:37:41,679 --> 00:37:45,679
that's frustrating. Thing Number one. Number two is and I

782
00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:48,679
know you do talk about Vance's comments on mifipristone, which

783
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:51,119
is the abortion pill, which is how the majority of

784
00:37:51,159 --> 00:37:56,519
abortions are carried out these days. I think what's frustrating

785
00:37:56,679 --> 00:37:59,800
is that there is so much of an opportunity to

786
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:04,880
not religious arguments, not you know, not even like this

787
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:07,159
is a human being arguments, Because if people have been

788
00:38:07,199 --> 00:38:08,960
conditioned to believe that this is a clump of cells.

789
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:10,800
It's going to take more than somebody saying no, it's

790
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:13,400
a human being for them to like agree and believe that.

791
00:38:14,679 --> 00:38:18,599
But you have so many scientific arguments to make right

792
00:38:18,639 --> 00:38:21,480
now about the dangers that this poses to women. I mean,

793
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:23,800
you bring up Ryan Anderson, the Ethics and Public Policy

794
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:28,239
Center study showing how dangerous, how much worse the abortion

795
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:32,679
pill is, then the FDA has ever admitted or will

796
00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:35,920
ever admit. I mean, there's an opportunity here too, from

797
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:42,360
a strictly scientific angle to whack you know, the way

798
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:45,679
that the vast majority of abortions are performed without even

799
00:38:46,159 --> 00:38:49,880
needing to change public opinion or getting into a constitutional question,

800
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:52,559
you know, because you can do it from a scientific way,

801
00:38:52,599 --> 00:38:54,880
So like, why is that not happening? And then you

802
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,000
have JD. Vance saying things like you know that he

803
00:38:57,079 --> 00:39:00,880
supports mifipristone. I think that was from interview at one point.

804
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:04,519
And I'm somebody who generally likes Gdvance, but this issue

805
00:39:04,559 --> 00:39:07,440
is so frustrating to me because it's so important, and

806
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:09,440
I think there is an opportunity and we're missing it.

807
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:12,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll say a couple things.

808
00:39:12,639 --> 00:39:16,039
Speaker 3: For one, I've become I used to be much more

809
00:39:16,039 --> 00:39:20,440
interested in the like natural scientific claims of the personhood

810
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:22,320
of the un warngest to me, it's obvious, right, there's

811
00:39:22,639 --> 00:39:26,199
anything other than at the moment of conception is artificial.

812
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:28,880
So oh no, a child's you know, becomes a person

813
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:32,360
at heartbeat or at three months or when they can

814
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:35,079
feel pain or when they're born. It's all arbitrary because

815
00:39:35,079 --> 00:39:38,599
it's the same same set of DNA, same person is

816
00:39:38,639 --> 00:39:40,440
in there from the moment of conception.

817
00:39:40,519 --> 00:39:43,840
Speaker 2: And so those are all like completely arbitrary arguments.

818
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:45,880
Speaker 1: But it rings hollow when we even have you know,

819
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:48,519
like the Carnegie stages of embryonic development. I mean this

820
00:39:48,599 --> 00:39:53,639
is like enshrined in like scientific you know, the standards,

821
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:53,880
you know.

822
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:56,119
Speaker 3: So anyway, continue, I will say, I think I'm a

823
00:39:56,159 --> 00:40:00,800
little more jaded on the philosophical theological reality of where

824
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:03,320
people are at today that I don't know how much

825
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:06,960
those hold. I was just make a old pop culture reference, now,

826
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:09,639
I suppose, but like in the Batman the Dark Night

827
00:40:09,679 --> 00:40:13,079
movie where I forget the scene, but Anne Hathaway's character is,

828
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:15,599
you know, like, oh, you know, we have this, we

829
00:40:15,679 --> 00:40:18,559
have that, and the enemies are surrounding them, and Batman

830
00:40:18,559 --> 00:40:20,800
looks at her and his gravelly voiced Christian vales as

831
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:21,199
they know.

832
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:22,320
Speaker 2: They just don't care.

833
00:40:22,679 --> 00:40:24,679
Speaker 3: And that's kind of how I feel more and more,

834
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:27,320
and it troubles me greatly. But I think even if

835
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:28,840
you can prove to them, like, no, this is a

836
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:33,440
human being, like nothing changes biologically from day of conception

837
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:36,079
a month one to month six to that would justify

838
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:40,039
you know, killing here, but not here. I don't know

839
00:40:40,039 --> 00:40:43,079
how many people care. I'm kind of I'm increasingly convinced

840
00:40:43,079 --> 00:40:47,000
that without some kind of a religious, like serious moral revival,

841
00:40:47,039 --> 00:40:48,800
that we're not going to get there on the culture

842
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:49,239
any other way.

843
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:49,920
Speaker 2: I hope I'm wrong.

844
00:40:50,119 --> 00:40:52,880
Speaker 3: I hope that reason will start to grip people on

845
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:55,639
this issue, but I've gotten maybe more pessimistic about that

846
00:40:55,679 --> 00:40:58,039
in recent years. But that being said, I want to

847
00:40:58,039 --> 00:41:00,800
cover two more points to the of the question that

848
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:03,559
you asked. So I covered why Trump and Vance I

849
00:41:03,559 --> 00:41:06,400
think are how they're similar on this issue? How are

850
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:08,440
they different? And how can we can we trust Vance

851
00:41:08,519 --> 00:41:10,679
more than Trump? I would say, yes, they are different,

852
00:41:10,679 --> 00:41:13,000
and yes we can trust Vance more than Trump on

853
00:41:13,039 --> 00:41:18,320
this issue. Frankly for this reason. So for one, Vance

854
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:21,559
is a committed Catholic convert. He takes the faith seriously.

855
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:25,480
We've seen before the Ohio referendum really jarred him at

856
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:29,360
how unpopular this issue had become. Vance was adamantly pro life,

857
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:32,119
Like he talked about the consistent ethic being you know

858
00:41:32,119 --> 00:41:34,519
that's an unborn child from the moment of conception, like,

859
00:41:34,559 --> 00:41:38,039
you can't justify any abortions. I think we know what

860
00:41:38,119 --> 00:41:40,840
he thinks on a philosophical level on this. So the

861
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:43,320
big difference I think is I think Trump and Vance

862
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:46,599
both realize how politically fraught and limited the solutions are here,

863
00:41:47,039 --> 00:41:48,400
but I think they're different in that.

864
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:49,719
Speaker 2: Listen Trump.

865
00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:52,239
Speaker 3: Trump came on the scene with an America First agenda

866
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:54,760
and a couple of very particular issue areas that he

867
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:58,519
cared deeply about, right, immigration and the border being overrun,

868
00:41:58,639 --> 00:42:01,800
destroying our country, the trade deficit and how we were

869
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:05,559
just getting destroyed by globalism, right, and the way we've

870
00:42:05,599 --> 00:42:09,480
outsourced everything and we're not We're just getting destroyed on

871
00:42:09,559 --> 00:42:13,119
foreign trade. Many said some things about stupid foreign wars, right.

872
00:42:13,199 --> 00:42:16,280
So these are Trump's core commitments. It was clear from

873
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:18,480
day one he was always going to make deals on

874
00:42:18,519 --> 00:42:19,599
pretty much everything else.

875
00:42:19,599 --> 00:42:22,199
Speaker 2: And that includes social issues like abortion. So I think

876
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:23,559
to the.

877
00:42:23,519 --> 00:42:26,599
Speaker 3: Pro lifers who feel betrayed by Trump, I would just say, listen,

878
00:42:27,039 --> 00:42:29,360
I think he was fairly consistent, Like he made pro

879
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:31,880
life statements. He was the first president to actually address

880
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:35,440
the March for Life in his first term. But this

881
00:42:35,639 --> 00:42:39,119
was never like a pro life crusader candidate who was

882
00:42:39,159 --> 00:42:40,800
going to be like our hero on abortion.

883
00:42:41,199 --> 00:42:42,480
Speaker 2: Ironically, he did more.

884
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:45,800
Speaker 3: For the pro life cause than many of his predecessors

885
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:46,719
and the party I think.

886
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:50,159
Speaker 1: But yeah, I'll take a transactional pro lifer who actually

887
00:42:50,159 --> 00:42:52,440
delivers on the transaction than somebody who just pays lip

888
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:53,079
service to it.

889
00:42:53,199 --> 00:42:53,360
Speaker 2: You know.

890
00:42:53,559 --> 00:42:54,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, any data and.

891
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:56,920
Speaker 3: I will say, I'm sorry, But to the commentators who

892
00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:59,719
are saying that, like the Trump vance administration is so

893
00:43:00,199 --> 00:43:02,280
pro life and that's such a break from all the

894
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:05,320
pro life Republicans we've had, I'm sorry, spare me, but

895
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:07,840
the pro lifers who are hardline on this issue.

896
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 2: Before Roe was overturned, and.

897
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:12,159
Speaker 3: You pointed this out a minute ago, like before Roe

898
00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:15,519
was overturned, it was a supposed constitutional right. Nobody could

899
00:43:15,519 --> 00:43:18,320
ever do anything to restrict abortion. So it's very safe

900
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:21,880
for Republican politicians to say rah rah, I'm pro life

901
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:24,559
to campaign and fundraise from the pro lifers, and they

902
00:43:24,559 --> 00:43:26,320
were never going to have to do anything about it.

903
00:43:26,559 --> 00:43:29,079
So I'm sorry, but people who were more pro life

904
00:43:29,119 --> 00:43:30,519
than Trump Vance in the pre.

905
00:43:30,639 --> 00:43:34,440
Speaker 2: Dobbs era not a convincing argument to me at all.

906
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:38,960
Speaker 3: But I think contra Trump, right, who was always transactional

907
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:41,679
on this issue, I think Vance cares very personally about

908
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:45,000
this issue. I think he has real Christian convictions that

909
00:43:45,039 --> 00:43:47,719
abortion is the taking of a life that's made in

910
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:51,519
the image and likeness of God, and that whereas he's

911
00:43:51,519 --> 00:43:54,079
a realist. But I think we can count on Vance

912
00:43:54,119 --> 00:43:57,360
to do what he thinks is politically and politically possible

913
00:43:57,760 --> 00:43:59,960
on this issue, whereas I don't think that's the case

914
00:44:00,039 --> 00:44:01,719
for Trump. I think Trump will do it as much

915
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:03,960
as he thinks is necessary to keep the base together

916
00:44:04,119 --> 00:44:06,559
and to compromise on the issue. So I do think

917
00:44:06,599 --> 00:44:08,760
they're different on that. And then I do want to

918
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:10,320
touch on the last thing you said on this. I

919
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:12,159
know a lot of time spent on this issue, but

920
00:44:12,159 --> 00:44:13,000
it's an important one.

921
00:44:13,039 --> 00:44:13,239
Speaker 1: It is.

922
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:15,199
Speaker 3: I think it's the only place in the book where

923
00:44:15,199 --> 00:44:18,199
I'm actually critical Advance in a serious way. So I

924
00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:20,840
do want to make that known because I'm not a

925
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:23,840
pure advance accolyte, though I'm a big fan obviously.

926
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 2: So.

927
00:44:26,679 --> 00:44:29,079
Speaker 3: It's important to be a realist on this issue. I

928
00:44:29,119 --> 00:44:32,559
think that you can say, as a Christian, as a Catholic,

929
00:44:32,599 --> 00:44:37,760
in my Advance's case, out of political prudence there you

930
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:40,960
could get up and say, I'm pro life. I would

931
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:44,400
like every abortion to stop in this country. The numbers

932
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:46,679
are not there. We have no political ability. There's no

933
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:48,760
political will at the federal level. If we try to

934
00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:51,559
ban abortion in especially on those levels, if I try,

935
00:44:51,559 --> 00:44:54,719
if we try to ban mifepres stone through legislation or

936
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:57,960
presidential you know, executive action, if we try to restrict

937
00:44:58,039 --> 00:45:00,719
access to IVF through those channels.

938
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:02,039
Speaker 2: It's not going to work.

939
00:45:02,079 --> 00:45:03,840
Speaker 3: Like the numbers are so bad on this that all

940
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:05,559
that's going to happen is we're going to lose elections

941
00:45:05,599 --> 00:45:07,920
and we cannot move the needle on this until the

942
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:11,119
culture is pro life. So while I hate abortion, I

943
00:45:11,119 --> 00:45:13,840
want it to end, we can't act on this. You

944
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:16,239
can do that, I would say, as a Catholic, as

945
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:19,239
a Christian in public office, because there's nothing.

946
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:19,440
Speaker 2: You can do.

947
00:45:20,119 --> 00:45:23,440
Speaker 3: But what happens when you say instead of there's no

948
00:45:23,599 --> 00:45:26,599
political action we can take on this issue. But I

949
00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:30,559
support MiFi crestone access or I support the you know,

950
00:45:30,639 --> 00:45:33,039
the creation of babies that are going to be discarded

951
00:45:33,039 --> 00:45:38,360
through IVF. That's no longer political prudence. That's supporting something

952
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:40,599
that is intrinsically evil. So, especially looking at this to

953
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:44,039
a Catholic lens, we cannot do that. And I've talked

954
00:45:44,079 --> 00:45:46,079
to people who know Vance and who spoke to him

955
00:45:46,079 --> 00:45:49,519
in the pro life movement right after that famous twenty

956
00:45:49,559 --> 00:45:52,519
twenty four I don't think he quite He almost said

957
00:45:52,559 --> 00:45:55,440
we support He said he supported the Supreme Court's decision

958
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:58,480
to take no access action on mifipres Stone, and it

959
00:45:58,599 --> 00:46:02,000
kind of looked like he said, we support abortion pill access,

960
00:46:02,039 --> 00:46:04,239
and you can't do that. So I've heard that he

961
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:06,960
kind of regretted the way that came out. I think

962
00:46:07,079 --> 00:46:09,920
he knows the difference between what's politically prudent and what

963
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:12,800
you can't say as a Catholic. But to the extent

964
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:16,079
that people in the MAGA world, especially Catholics, want to

965
00:46:16,079 --> 00:46:18,760
say no, no, we support IVF and first trimester because

966
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:21,119
there's no will for we can't support these things. And

967
00:46:21,159 --> 00:46:23,440
it's really important that we use the bully pulpit that

968
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:28,800
our Catholic and Christian politicians have to not accidentally or

969
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:31,440
inadvertently say that we're supporting things that are evil, so

970
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:33,480
might be prudent not to take action.

971
00:46:33,559 --> 00:46:35,000
Speaker 2: But we can't support these things.

972
00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:37,599
Speaker 1: People, right right? Yeah, Well, and I would love to see,

973
00:46:37,679 --> 00:46:40,760
you know, in a potential future Vance administration taking a

974
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:43,920
little more seriously, you know, stripping FDA approval from these

975
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:47,480
dangerous drugs, you know, relying on real science like the

976
00:46:47,519 --> 00:46:50,800
Epp study and not fake fake science like the FDA.

977
00:46:51,599 --> 00:46:54,480
You know, maybe enforcing is it, the commerce clause against

978
00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:59,559
people who are shipping mithipristone to red states. I mean,

979
00:46:59,559 --> 00:47:02,440
there's there's things that can be done without even you know,

980
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:06,800
without trying to pass legislation at the federal level that's

981
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:09,599
abolitionists that bans abortionne you know, It's like I understand

982
00:47:09,599 --> 00:47:12,880
that there are things that are politically not feasible that

983
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:15,000
you genuinely can't do, But there are things that we

984
00:47:15,199 --> 00:47:17,960
can do. And I would hope, you know, even in

985
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:21,039
like a post Trump Vance administration, that we would be

986
00:47:21,039 --> 00:47:23,639
able to take even one more step toward towards some

987
00:47:23,679 --> 00:47:26,159
of these things that are so important, and that would

988
00:47:26,199 --> 00:47:29,400
go a long way, because it's also important to condition

989
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:32,320
people's consciences to view human life as human life. And

990
00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:35,400
of course, like you can't force them to see something

991
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:37,320
that they can't see, you know, you can't just change

992
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:41,239
public opinion by changing the law. But if you if

993
00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:44,719
you act like human life is human life, then you

994
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:47,000
begin to teach people that human life is human life.

995
00:47:47,039 --> 00:47:48,960
If that makes sense. You know, the law does condition

996
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:52,239
our consciences, and so it's important to make whatever moves

997
00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:54,519
we can in that direction, which I think you would

998
00:47:54,559 --> 00:47:55,320
agree with as well.

999
00:47:55,960 --> 00:47:56,599
Speaker 2: Yes, and to.

1000
00:47:56,519 --> 00:47:59,480
Speaker 3: Steal one more thing that I've I've gotten from Ryan

1001
00:47:59,519 --> 00:48:03,079
Anderson and from Aristotle obviously, but you know, so the

1002
00:48:03,119 --> 00:48:06,800
Aristotelian virtue of courage, right, All the virtues have their

1003
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:10,880
two corresponding defects or extremes, right, so courage is needed.

1004
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:11,639
Speaker 2: It's a virtue.

1005
00:48:11,639 --> 00:48:14,039
Speaker 3: And on one side you have rashness, or you know,

1006
00:48:14,079 --> 00:48:15,920
and on the or and on the other side you

1007
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:18,800
have cowardice. Right, So on this issue especially, I think

1008
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:21,800
we need to be very thoughtful about what we're doing

1009
00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:23,599
because on one side, as I've said, you don't want

1010
00:48:23,639 --> 00:48:25,800
to be rash and just charge in and do things

1011
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:28,440
that are politically impossible and that are just going to

1012
00:48:29,039 --> 00:48:31,519
make the pro life movement go backwards. But we also

1013
00:48:31,639 --> 00:48:34,199
don't want to, in the name of prudence, become cowards

1014
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:37,000
and not do what we can do. Right, So yeah,

1015
00:48:37,039 --> 00:48:40,599
let's let's try to find the virtue and avoid the extremes.

1016
00:48:40,599 --> 00:48:43,239
Speaker 2: Not easy, but very important, not to be a coward

1017
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:44,159
in the name of prudence.

1018
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:47,559
Speaker 1: Yes, that's exactly right. Since we're already kind of talking

1019
00:48:47,559 --> 00:48:51,599
about this, can you speak to ways beside abortion that JD.

1020
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:56,039
Vance's Catholic faith have that that has shaped his governance.

1021
00:48:57,599 --> 00:48:59,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, so, I mean he got a lot of flak

1022
00:49:00,119 --> 00:49:04,159
for this, But the when when the new administration came in, right,

1023
00:49:04,199 --> 00:49:08,320
and we had the immigration crackdown, began to close the

1024
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:13,079
border to deport people here illegally, right, Vance, in the

1025
00:49:13,079 --> 00:49:16,360
face of people basically saying this is uncharitable, it flies

1026
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:20,079
in the face of Christianity or what have you, he

1027
00:49:20,159 --> 00:49:24,199
invokes the the Catholic understanding of the Ordo a mauris right,

1028
00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:25,079
the order of love.

1029
00:49:25,199 --> 00:49:26,639
Speaker 2: Right. This became like big.

1030
00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:29,400
Speaker 3: He he tweeted something and like every commentator in the

1031
00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:32,159
world was writing about whether Vance was interpreting the Ordo

1032
00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:35,280
amorys correctly, and I'm not a theologian, but he goes

1033
00:49:35,519 --> 00:49:38,719
he's going back to Saint Augustine and then especially Saint

1034
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:41,559
Thomas Aquinas, and they're talking about you know, love like

1035
00:49:41,679 --> 00:49:44,119
the willing of the good of the other, right, not me,

1036
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:47,559
but the other person. It doesn't require the same thing

1037
00:49:47,639 --> 00:49:49,679
of us toward every person.

1038
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:51,480
Speaker 2: Right. The love that.

1039
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:54,559
Speaker 3: I owe my wife and then my children is not

1040
00:49:54,599 --> 00:49:56,320
the same as what I owe my next door neighbor

1041
00:49:56,639 --> 00:49:58,960
or my co workers is not the same that as

1042
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:01,360
what I owe you know, people that I've never met

1043
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:04,960
before and foreign countries. That's just that's just obviously true.

1044
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:07,480
I can't love everybody the way that I love my wife, right,

1045
00:50:07,719 --> 00:50:11,920
and so so vance in Bosh right, right, that will

1046
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:14,519
be disordered. And I think it's a real by the way,

1047
00:50:14,559 --> 00:50:17,199
I think this is a real problem among especially on

1048
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:21,920
the left, But of abstracting charity, abstracting love and duty

1049
00:50:22,119 --> 00:50:23,679
to get out of actual commitment.

1050
00:50:23,679 --> 00:50:24,119
Speaker 2: That's hard.

1051
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:27,400
Speaker 3: And I could just give you one example, the green movement,

1052
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:30,239
the environmental movement, right, Like, it's so much easier to

1053
00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:32,559
do what a lot of folks on the left do,

1054
00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:34,320
and it drives me nuts. I have some of them

1055
00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:38,039
in my extended family, like people who will vote on

1056
00:50:38,159 --> 00:50:40,760
like climate change. We need to restrict carbon emissions, we

1057
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:42,719
need to restrict all of these things that are like

1058
00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:46,760
out there and arguably are doing nothing for the actual

1059
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:49,679
climate crisis. But meanwhile, like those same people are going

1060
00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:53,920
through like rolls of paper towel and like wasting all

1061
00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:57,599
like plastic everywhere there are plastic bags and we're throwing

1062
00:50:57,599 --> 00:51:00,559
out garbage, and like, meanwhile, I'm not really on board

1063
00:51:00,559 --> 00:51:04,199
with any of the climate, like carbon emissions kind of legislations.

1064
00:51:04,199 --> 00:51:07,039
Speaker 2: I think it's kind of create like ineffective in doing anything.

1065
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:10,039
Speaker 3: But I do care about things like the degradation of

1066
00:51:10,079 --> 00:51:14,599
our soil and air quality. So we plant trees, we compost, right,

1067
00:51:14,679 --> 00:51:17,440
we do things in our lives that are like on

1068
00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:21,039
the ground and actually do something. And I think generally

1069
00:51:21,079 --> 00:51:23,320
it's much easier for people to look for issues out

1070
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:25,360
there that they can vote on and be crusaders for

1071
00:51:25,559 --> 00:51:28,880
because it doesn't involve actually the hard sacrificial love that

1072
00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:31,840
it takes to do something tangible in your own life.

1073
00:51:32,239 --> 00:51:34,480
And so I think that's a big thing on the

1074
00:51:34,519 --> 00:51:37,440
immigration issue, is like there are all these people who

1075
00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:39,880
you know, God bless them. These poor people are so

1076
00:51:40,079 --> 00:51:42,639
isolated and let down by our current culture that they're

1077
00:51:42,679 --> 00:51:45,119
like they're brainwashed by their schools and by the media,

1078
00:51:45,119 --> 00:51:47,119
and they have they're not married, they don't have kids,

1079
00:51:47,119 --> 00:51:49,280
they probably don't have parents they have good relationships with,

1080
00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:52,519
they don't have siblings because we've like contracepted big families

1081
00:51:52,559 --> 00:51:55,360
out of existence, and so we like, you have these poor, lonely,

1082
00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:57,960
isolated people and they're looking for meaning. And the meaning

1083
00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:00,639
is I'm going to fight for some call that's not

1084
00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:03,599
like that it is so far removed from your real life,

1085
00:52:03,599 --> 00:52:06,199
like we're going to defend you know, illegal immigrants from

1086
00:52:06,239 --> 00:52:06,679
Ice that you.

1087
00:52:06,679 --> 00:52:08,079
Speaker 2: Don't know any illegal immigrants.

1088
00:52:08,079 --> 00:52:11,559
Speaker 3: This is so like far from your actual lived experience,

1089
00:52:11,559 --> 00:52:13,039
but people are searching for meeting there.

1090
00:52:13,239 --> 00:52:17,400
Speaker 1: Anyways, this has been making me crazy because all over

1091
00:52:17,599 --> 00:52:20,360
like Mommy Instagram, it's all the same people who posted

1092
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:22,480
the black Square, you know, in the wake of the

1093
00:52:22,519 --> 00:52:25,880
George Floyd death and the BLM riots and all of that.

1094
00:52:26,239 --> 00:52:29,920
But it's the same people who are not only regurgitating

1095
00:52:30,119 --> 00:52:33,800
completely fake headlines from the corporate media about you know,

1096
00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:35,960
a five year old being used as bait by ICE

1097
00:52:36,079 --> 00:52:39,960
or you know, renee good being, you know, mercilessly hunted

1098
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:43,519
down in her vehicle or whatever. But it's also just

1099
00:52:43,559 --> 00:52:46,800
a complete disordered way of loving as well, Like I've

1100
00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:50,480
seen I've seen multiple people now who talk in this

1101
00:52:50,599 --> 00:52:53,280
kind of way of like my my children want me

1102
00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:55,639
to play with them, but I can't stop seeing videos

1103
00:52:55,719 --> 00:52:58,199
of you know, this person being murdered in the street.

1104
00:52:58,239 --> 00:53:01,599
And it's like, if you can more about the person

1105
00:53:01,639 --> 00:53:03,639
that you've never met, never would have met, is not

1106
00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:06,559
actually your you know, literal neighbor in any sense of

1107
00:53:06,559 --> 00:53:08,480
the word. You've never met them, you don't know anything

1108
00:53:08,519 --> 00:53:11,480
about them if they are occupying your mind and your

1109
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:13,599
love and your affections more than your own child, like

1110
00:53:13,679 --> 00:53:16,360
you have a problem, and that kind of stuff is

1111
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:18,440
happening all over And the way that Jade Vance just

1112
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:20,719
spoke to that so plainly with that interview about the

1113
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:24,199
Order of Morris, It's like that was that was remarkable

1114
00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:26,840
clarity from a politician that we hadn't seen in quite

1115
00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:27,239
some time.

1116
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:30,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think it's I like that example because

1117
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:33,119
I think it shows a couple of things that he's

1118
00:53:33,159 --> 00:53:38,280
he takes Catholic social doctrine seriously clearly, because he's trying

1119
00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:39,880
to take in and say, Okay, what are my duties

1120
00:53:39,880 --> 00:53:41,960
as a Catholic, how do I apply those to my

1121
00:53:42,199 --> 00:53:45,119
my job as vice president to try to help to

1122
00:53:45,159 --> 00:53:46,320
promote the common good?

1123
00:53:47,199 --> 00:53:47,800
Speaker 2: Which is great.

1124
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:50,440
Speaker 3: It's a breath of fresh air after you know, decades

1125
00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:52,880
of a lot of especially Catholic politicians, who have tried

1126
00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:56,880
their best to like separate, Well, my personal faith says this,

1127
00:53:57,039 --> 00:53:59,719
but I have to do the opposite because of my

1128
00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:03,719
as governor or president or whatever. That's not the way

1129
00:54:03,719 --> 00:54:06,320
that anybody's supposed to function if you take your faith seriously.

1130
00:54:06,599 --> 00:54:08,000
Speaker 2: I think the other thing that's worth.

1131
00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:10,679
Speaker 3: Saying is that there are not easy answers to this,

1132
00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:14,280
because the way that you apply like Christian social doctrine

1133
00:54:14,559 --> 00:54:18,239
to concrete examples of a particular issue in a particular

1134
00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:21,760
country at a particular time, there's some prudence.

1135
00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:23,400
Speaker 2: You need to figure out how it applies.

1136
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:25,559
Speaker 3: And so I think what we can say is that

1137
00:54:25,639 --> 00:54:27,320
Vance is trying to do this like he's going to

1138
00:54:27,320 --> 00:54:29,760
take the faith seriously and see, well, how do I

1139
00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:36,760
apply my faith to principles of political and governing philosophy.

1140
00:54:36,199 --> 00:54:37,360
Speaker 2: That will actually work?

1141
00:54:37,639 --> 00:54:39,840
Speaker 3: And he said he was at the Catholic prayer breakfast

1142
00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:41,920
last year, and he said something I thought was really

1143
00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:45,119
beautiful and humble. He's like, listen, I'm a baby Catholic.

1144
00:54:45,440 --> 00:54:47,920
I'm kind of relying on you guys, my Catholic brothers

1145
00:54:47,920 --> 00:54:49,440
and sisters. So like, tell me what.

1146
00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:51,719
Speaker 2: I'm doing wrong. Which is why I wrote the abortion chapter.

1147
00:54:52,599 --> 00:54:54,360
Speaker 3: I think that it needs to be reminded that we

1148
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:57,639
can't say we support abortion in any form, right.

1149
00:54:58,199 --> 00:54:59,679
Speaker 2: But he says, they said, listen, I'm going to get

1150
00:54:59,679 --> 00:55:00,320
this stuff wrong.

1151
00:55:00,360 --> 00:55:03,159
Speaker 3: But I'm trying to grapple with with what my faith

1152
00:55:03,719 --> 00:55:05,719
requires of me as a public figure.

1153
00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:06,480
Speaker 2: And so I think we.

1154
00:55:06,480 --> 00:55:08,039
Speaker 3: Can count on that and maybe the way that we

1155
00:55:08,079 --> 00:55:11,960
have not been able to for any any Catholic politician

1156
00:55:12,079 --> 00:55:14,400
in a very long time. But they're going to take

1157
00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:17,159
their faith seriously and try to apply it to their

1158
00:55:17,239 --> 00:55:18,400
role in public life.

1159
00:55:18,679 --> 00:55:21,159
Speaker 1: Yeah. One of the things you bring up in the

1160
00:55:21,199 --> 00:55:24,639
book in reference in some places to Vance's Catholic faith,

1161
00:55:24,679 --> 00:55:26,960
but also just in you know, kind of his biography

1162
00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:31,880
is his relationship with Peter Teel and how Peter Teel

1163
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:35,960
even influenced, you know, some of his thinking on matters

1164
00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:38,320
of Christianity and such. I know one thing that I've

1165
00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:41,840
heard some people criticize Vance for or be concerned about.

1166
00:55:41,920 --> 00:55:44,239
I guess as it relates to his political future, is

1167
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:47,559
a potential influence of Peter Teal over Jdvants Because whether

1168
00:55:47,599 --> 00:55:52,079
you agree with Teal's you know, interpretation of the Christian

1169
00:55:52,079 --> 00:55:55,280
faith or not, he has a lot of transhumanist ideas.

1170
00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:57,360
So can you kind of speak to those concerns and

1171
00:55:58,239 --> 00:56:02,199
what you would foresee any influence or if any Peter

1172
00:56:02,280 --> 00:56:04,559
Teal would have over a Jdvance presidency.

1173
00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:07,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I think it's worth kind of qualifying what

1174
00:56:08,039 --> 00:56:09,840
that influence of Peter Teel over JD.

1175
00:56:09,960 --> 00:56:11,920
Speaker 2: Vance really is. So I'll point out two things.

1176
00:56:12,199 --> 00:56:14,639
Speaker 3: One, right, I do say in the book during Vance's conversion,

1177
00:56:14,679 --> 00:56:16,400
he says that the first person that he met, and

1178
00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:19,840
he was in Yelle Law School, who was ever publicly

1179
00:56:20,119 --> 00:56:24,559
claiming to be a Christian and spoke intelligently was Peter Teal,

1180
00:56:24,639 --> 00:56:26,519
And so that had an effect on him. It doesn't

1181
00:56:26,519 --> 00:56:28,480
mean he became, you know, a Christian in the image

1182
00:56:28,480 --> 00:56:29,320
of Peter Teel, and.

1183
00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:29,960
Speaker 2: He's certainly not.

1184
00:56:30,039 --> 00:56:35,519
Speaker 3: I mean, Vance's Catholicism is clearly not anything like Peter Teel's.

1185
00:56:35,920 --> 00:56:38,519
Kind of interesting, and I think heterodox Protestantism.

1186
00:56:39,199 --> 00:56:42,639
Speaker 1: So there's that because that was during Vance's sort of

1187
00:56:42,719 --> 00:56:44,280
experimentation with atheism.

1188
00:56:44,360 --> 00:56:48,400
Speaker 3: Correct, Yeah, he was a self proclaimed like agnostic atheist.

1189
00:56:48,400 --> 00:56:50,199
Speaker 2: He was still in law school. This was before Advance

1190
00:56:50,280 --> 00:56:51,119
was a Christian at all.

1191
00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:54,199
Speaker 3: It was just one of his first encounters with Christianity

1192
00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:56,880
as as an adult in like the elite world. Right,

1193
00:56:56,960 --> 00:56:59,960
So I don't think that that Teals Christianity really has

1194
00:57:00,039 --> 00:57:01,920
anything to do Advances. It was just kind of a

1195
00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:03,800
step along the way, Like Teal was the first person

1196
00:57:03,840 --> 00:57:06,320
who introduced him to like, hey, people can be both

1197
00:57:06,320 --> 00:57:08,360
intelligent and Christian, And I think that's about as far

1198
00:57:08,360 --> 00:57:11,320
as that goes. But then you also have the very

1199
00:57:11,360 --> 00:57:13,440
real thing that, like Peter Teal donated quite a lot

1200
00:57:13,480 --> 00:57:15,920
of money to the pack that helped Advance win the

1201
00:57:15,960 --> 00:57:19,000
primary in Ohio when he was running for Senate, which

1202
00:57:19,079 --> 00:57:20,519
was his entrance into public life.

1203
00:57:20,800 --> 00:57:23,239
Speaker 2: And so to say, well, no political life, sorry, he

1204
00:57:23,239 --> 00:57:24,239
was already a public figure.

1205
00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:28,639
Speaker 3: But there are people rightly concerned to ask that question,

1206
00:57:28,840 --> 00:57:31,400
like Teal's given Advance a lot of money, aren't you

1207
00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:34,679
worried that exactly what you said, Teal is a futurist,

1208
00:57:34,719 --> 00:57:38,800
transhumanist Orthodox Christians. We don't really like this guy. And

1209
00:57:39,199 --> 00:57:42,440
I understand that for sure. There was an interview and

1210
00:57:42,480 --> 00:57:44,079
I can't remember where it is or even if it's

1211
00:57:44,079 --> 00:57:47,639
in the book, but somebody asked Vance basically, what do

1212
00:57:47,679 --> 00:57:50,239
you feel you owe to the donors, to the people

1213
00:57:50,280 --> 00:57:52,119
who have given you the money that has supported your

1214
00:57:52,199 --> 00:57:55,400
runs for office? And Vance said, you know, I appreciate them.

1215
00:57:55,440 --> 00:57:57,840
I appreciate the people who believe in me. Peter Teal

1216
00:57:57,920 --> 00:57:59,760
clearly believed in me as somebody who would be good

1217
00:57:59,840 --> 00:58:02,239
for the political world in America. But what do I

1218
00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:06,599
owe them in terms of implementing their preferred policies or

1219
00:58:06,679 --> 00:58:07,960
vision for the country.

1220
00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:08,719
Speaker 2: Nothing.

1221
00:58:08,880 --> 00:58:12,000
Speaker 3: I owe them nothing. And I think that's really important

1222
00:58:13,559 --> 00:58:16,880
that for one, and you said this off camera. It's

1223
00:58:16,920 --> 00:58:19,480
like it's one thing when Vance was in a competitive primary,

1224
00:58:19,559 --> 00:58:22,679
somebody in his circle needed to see that campaign to

1225
00:58:22,679 --> 00:58:25,400
help him stand out from a wide field. And Vance

1226
00:58:25,480 --> 00:58:27,679
was not the front runner in that Senate race. But

1227
00:58:27,719 --> 00:58:30,639
now he's the vice president. He's in no way beholden

1228
00:58:30,719 --> 00:58:33,920
to the money or the influence of Peter Teel. And

1229
00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:36,239
also I do kind of question how close he really

1230
00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:37,679
is to Teal. I mean, that was a long time

1231
00:58:37,679 --> 00:58:40,760
ago when Vance was in Silicon Valley. You look at

1232
00:58:40,760 --> 00:58:44,440
the staffers in Vance's vice presidential office who are on

1233
00:58:44,480 --> 00:58:46,960
his campaign, and I'm not seeing a bunch of like

1234
00:58:47,039 --> 00:58:51,440
transhumanist Silicon Valley tech libertarian types. I'm seeing a lot

1235
00:58:51,480 --> 00:58:54,760
of rather based Christians being like the people that Vance

1236
00:58:54,840 --> 00:58:57,599
is talking to and is being influenced by. So I

1237
00:58:57,679 --> 00:59:00,679
get it, like in my far right chair circles. That's

1238
00:59:00,679 --> 00:59:02,440
the biggest thing I get to when it comes up

1239
00:59:02,440 --> 00:59:04,920
that I wrote this book on Vance is a oh

1240
00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:07,800
connection to Peter Teal. I'm kind of worried about this guy,

1241
00:59:07,880 --> 00:59:09,920
but I just don't see it. I don't see much

1242
00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:12,320
influence there. I don't personally see it as a cause

1243
00:59:12,320 --> 00:59:12,840
for concern.

1244
00:59:13,320 --> 00:59:18,199
Speaker 1: Mm hm. You your book lays out the case. I'm

1245
00:59:18,239 --> 00:59:20,360
gonna end on this unless we have anything that this

1246
00:59:20,480 --> 00:59:23,639
leads to, But your book lays out the case pretty

1247
00:59:23,679 --> 00:59:27,079
convincingly for why JD. Vance is the right man to

1248
00:59:27,280 --> 00:59:29,679
lead the party after and most likely will be. As

1249
00:59:29,719 --> 00:59:31,719
you know, the New Right has kind of taken root

1250
00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:35,800
within within the GOP, but obviously there are plenty of

1251
00:59:35,840 --> 00:59:41,079
factions within Congress, within the establishment GOP who will do

1252
00:59:41,159 --> 00:59:45,000
anything to ensure that we do not have another Trump,

1253
00:59:45,079 --> 00:59:47,440
that we can go back to neo Conservatism, that we

1254
00:59:47,480 --> 00:59:50,239
can kind of pull back to a useless, feckless GOP

1255
00:59:50,440 --> 00:59:54,000
that you know, is more of the fusionist mindset that

1256
00:59:54,039 --> 00:59:58,039
you talked about earlier. What do you think right now

1257
00:59:58,159 --> 01:00:01,760
is the biggest threat to the New Right continuing a

1258
01:00:01,840 --> 01:00:06,559
pace after we lose Trump? Because right, like twenty twenty

1259
01:00:06,599 --> 01:00:09,440
eight is is is not far away, but it's far

1260
01:00:09,519 --> 01:00:11,280
enough away that a lot can happen in the next

1261
01:00:11,280 --> 01:00:14,559
three years before you know, JD. Vance actually does become

1262
01:00:14,599 --> 01:00:18,679
the heir to the Trump Maga movement. So yeah, so

1263
01:00:18,719 --> 01:00:20,199
I'm sure you know there's gonna be a lot that

1264
01:00:20,199 --> 01:00:21,920
happens in the next few years. What do you think

1265
01:00:22,000 --> 01:00:22,880
is the biggest threat?

1266
01:00:23,719 --> 01:00:26,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, so right now, you look at the numbers, right

1267
01:00:26,119 --> 01:00:28,800
and JD. Vance is immensely popular among the base that's

1268
01:00:28,800 --> 01:00:31,880
going to elect the next presidential candidate in twenty twenty eight.

1269
01:00:33,000 --> 01:00:36,119
The only other person who pulls close and who So

1270
01:00:36,199 --> 01:00:37,840
you have this thing right where you have like the

1271
01:00:37,840 --> 01:00:40,239
people who are the pre Trump Republicans who are still

1272
01:00:40,239 --> 01:00:42,199
part of the party right. They may have disagreements, but

1273
01:00:42,239 --> 01:00:45,159
they've come along. And then you have the MAGA base

1274
01:00:45,639 --> 01:00:47,880
and who can keep those together? Who can keep this

1275
01:00:47,960 --> 01:00:52,079
demographic together. I think it's Vance, Like I think he

1276
01:00:52,119 --> 01:00:54,000
can be. There's a lot of chatter right, people who

1277
01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:56,039
would like to displace him for a lot of reasons,

1278
01:00:56,280 --> 01:01:01,039
but I think he can hold it together. The one question,

1279
01:01:01,119 --> 01:01:03,199
the one alternative that even like a lot of good

1280
01:01:03,239 --> 01:01:06,679
people on our side have pointed to, is Marco Rubio.

1281
01:01:06,800 --> 01:01:07,840
Speaker 2: Right, He's very.

1282
01:01:07,679 --> 01:01:12,719
Speaker 3: Popular, He's showing himself very capable. There is kind of,

1283
01:01:12,800 --> 01:01:16,480
I think the question lurking in some of the Magabas's minds,

1284
01:01:16,559 --> 01:01:19,159
like Rubio was kind of one of the neo cons

1285
01:01:19,159 --> 01:01:21,480
ten years ago. Is he just going along? But he

1286
01:01:21,480 --> 01:01:24,039
seems to be on the whole very popular and very

1287
01:01:24,360 --> 01:01:25,800
effective and part.

1288
01:01:25,639 --> 01:01:26,239
Speaker 2: Of the movement.

1289
01:01:26,559 --> 01:01:30,519
Speaker 3: But so what could change that would actually change this

1290
01:01:30,639 --> 01:01:32,280
and make it to the Advance is not the contender.

1291
01:01:32,320 --> 01:01:35,719
I think it's you would need some slip right where

1292
01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:38,920
Vance does something in public opinion shifts among the voting

1293
01:01:38,960 --> 01:01:43,079
base of the Republicans that undermines trust in Vance enough

1294
01:01:43,079 --> 01:01:46,760
to make Marco Rubio consider a run for president. I

1295
01:01:46,800 --> 01:01:49,599
can't see anything else that would displace him. I think

1296
01:01:49,800 --> 01:01:53,800
if Vance doesn't commit any political acts, of suicide, which

1297
01:01:53,800 --> 01:01:56,559
is unlikely. He's very talented at handling the media, at

1298
01:01:56,599 --> 01:01:59,840
balancing what he has to do politically, So if you

1299
01:01:59,840 --> 01:02:02,239
don't make a great mistake, that opens the door for Rubyo.

1300
01:02:02,280 --> 01:02:04,960
Speaker 2: I mean, Rubio's pretty much endorsed Van.

1301
01:02:05,079 --> 01:02:08,079
Speaker 3: So I think if if Rubio endorses Vance and runs

1302
01:02:08,079 --> 01:02:10,760
as his VP, which I think is fairly likely, I

1303
01:02:10,800 --> 01:02:12,760
think that's the end. I think there's pretty much nothing

1304
01:02:12,760 --> 01:02:14,679
that can be done. You'll get a run, right, the

1305
01:02:14,719 --> 01:02:17,159
people who want to displace Vance and Maga from the

1306
01:02:17,159 --> 01:02:20,360
Republican Party, they'll I mean, Nikki Haley would get like

1307
01:02:20,400 --> 01:02:23,119
a half a percent of the primary vote, Like Ted

1308
01:02:23,199 --> 01:02:25,119
Cruz is angling for a run, but he'll get like

1309
01:02:25,159 --> 01:02:27,960
one percent of the vote. Like these are not Josh Howley,

1310
01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:29,719
I think wants to run. I'm just kind of throwing

1311
01:02:29,760 --> 01:02:32,519
out what I've heard from DC murmurings.

1312
01:02:33,719 --> 01:02:36,360
Speaker 2: But I don't see anyone other than Rubio that's really

1313
01:02:36,480 --> 01:02:39,039
viable to capture the base.

1314
01:02:39,159 --> 01:02:40,800
Speaker 3: Like there are a lot of people who could capture

1315
01:02:40,840 --> 01:02:45,159
the donor dollars of disaffected you know, pre Trump Republicans,

1316
01:02:45,199 --> 01:02:48,039
but that doesn't translate into votes. So I think if

1317
01:02:48,119 --> 01:02:51,480
Rubio stays behind Vance, I think it's pretty much wrapped up.

1318
01:02:51,480 --> 01:02:53,880
Speaker 1: If I had to goes, Yeah, do you think Vance

1319
01:02:53,920 --> 01:02:56,159
would ever pick Rubio as a running mate? I mean,

1320
01:02:56,239 --> 01:02:57,840
way too early to tell, but.

1321
01:02:59,239 --> 01:03:01,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's I know Trump has said, like

1322
01:03:01,679 --> 01:03:04,079
Rocker Rubiot to just be Secretary of State forever, he's

1323
01:03:04,119 --> 01:03:05,599
so good at it. I don't think that was a knock.

1324
01:03:05,639 --> 01:03:08,280
I think that he's really good at managing these jobs.

1325
01:03:08,280 --> 01:03:10,559
And then he's you know, the national archivist and the

1326
01:03:10,599 --> 01:03:13,280
head of National Security and JD.

1327
01:03:13,400 --> 01:03:15,519
Speaker 2: Vance's new nanny. Depending on which memes you're.

1328
01:03:15,400 --> 01:03:20,159
Speaker 3: Following, but I do think it's possible. It would be

1329
01:03:20,199 --> 01:03:24,960
fascinating to see two men from very safely Republican states

1330
01:03:24,960 --> 01:03:27,480
who are both Catholics as the Republican Party ticket. That

1331
01:03:27,480 --> 01:03:30,320
would definitely be a historical first. But they're by far

1332
01:03:30,400 --> 01:03:33,840
the two most popular figures in the Republican Party. I

1333
01:03:33,880 --> 01:03:37,599
think that's I don't think that's out of the question.

1334
01:03:37,639 --> 01:03:40,119
I think it's perhaps likely. And if I could just

1335
01:03:40,119 --> 01:03:42,440
say one more thing about electability, because this is something

1336
01:03:42,519 --> 01:03:45,199
people ask is like, you know, the media is already

1337
01:03:45,199 --> 01:03:48,639
shifting and again, spare me, They've been doing this for decades, Like, oh, well,

1338
01:03:48,639 --> 01:03:50,639
now they're starting to moderate right. They've been calling Trump

1339
01:03:50,719 --> 01:03:53,639
hitler for a decade, but now it's like Trump's actually

1340
01:03:53,639 --> 01:03:56,480
been fairly moderate to work with on some of these issues. Vance,

1341
01:03:56,599 --> 01:04:00,400
that's the real extremist. He's basically Hitler. I'm sorry they

1342
01:04:00,480 --> 01:04:03,320
said that George W. Bush was like this far right monster,

1343
01:04:03,480 --> 01:04:05,960
and then when Trump started to run, they were like

1344
01:04:06,079 --> 01:04:07,440
longing for the days of w.

1345
01:04:07,519 --> 01:04:07,800
Speaker 2: Bush.

1346
01:04:07,840 --> 01:04:11,360
Speaker 3: Like the media has this really cynical thing where the

1347
01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:13,960
worst Republican that we've ever seen in all of history

1348
01:04:14,000 --> 01:04:16,280
is the one who's running right now. So I think

1349
01:04:16,320 --> 01:04:18,719
that's exaggerated. I think most of the base will get

1350
01:04:18,719 --> 01:04:21,480
behind Vance. I don't think there are just tons of

1351
01:04:21,519 --> 01:04:24,159
people who will say he's too extreme and undefecting. But

1352
01:04:24,199 --> 01:04:26,360
the other thing I'll say that I think gets overlooked

1353
01:04:26,519 --> 01:04:30,360
is remember it's not a popularity contest. It's an electoral

1354
01:04:30,360 --> 01:04:32,559
college vote for the next president. So when people talk

1355
01:04:32,559 --> 01:04:35,400
about the electability of Vance, where does the.

1356
01:04:35,400 --> 01:04:36,280
Speaker 2: Victory run through.

1357
01:04:36,320 --> 01:04:39,360
Speaker 3: It runs through my home state of Pennsylvania and Wisconsin

1358
01:04:39,440 --> 01:04:43,679
and Michigan. It's Vance plays really well in the Rustbell

1359
01:04:43,719 --> 01:04:45,519
you said this at the beginning, He's.

1360
01:04:45,360 --> 01:04:45,840
Speaker 2: One of them.

1361
01:04:45,920 --> 01:04:48,559
Speaker 3: He grew up in Middle America, He's experienced what they do,

1362
01:04:48,639 --> 01:04:51,760
he knows their struggles, so you can try to make

1363
01:04:51,840 --> 01:04:54,119
him out as this out of touch, like elite far

1364
01:04:54,239 --> 01:04:55,000
right Republican.

1365
01:04:55,079 --> 01:04:57,159
Speaker 2: He is not that. I think he will do very

1366
01:04:57,199 --> 01:04:59,960
well among the base in the states that matter especially.

1367
01:05:00,599 --> 01:05:02,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a great point. That's a great point. Well,

1368
01:05:02,880 --> 01:05:06,719
everyone should pick up a copy of Frank DeVito's new book, JD.

1369
01:05:06,880 --> 01:05:08,920
Vance and the Future of the Republican Party. I'm getting

1370
01:05:08,960 --> 01:05:10,360
the title of that right, aren't I?

1371
01:05:10,920 --> 01:05:12,760
Speaker 3: JD Vance in the Future of the Republican Party. Yes,

1372
01:05:12,760 --> 01:05:14,280
it's both the title and the thesis.

1373
01:05:14,480 --> 01:05:17,320
Speaker 1: Great. Great, I was second guessing myself, but yes, it's

1374
01:05:17,400 --> 01:05:19,920
definitely worth a read. It puts all of this information

1375
01:05:19,960 --> 01:05:23,239
into one place, very easy to read, a great resource.

1376
01:05:23,280 --> 01:05:25,440
You will not regret picking up a copy. Frank, thank

1377
01:05:25,480 --> 01:05:26,760
you so much for your time today. I had a

1378
01:05:26,800 --> 01:05:27,800
great time talking with you.

1379
01:05:28,440 --> 01:05:30,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, this was awesome. Thanks so much, Kylie.

1380
01:05:30,360 --> 01:05:37,440
Speaker 1: Yeah you bet. Thank you so much for tuning into

1381
01:05:37,519 --> 01:05:40,679
this week's episode of the Kylie Cast. If you haven't

1382
01:05:40,679 --> 01:05:43,519
done so already, please like and subscribe wherever you get

1383
01:05:43,559 --> 01:05:46,920
your podcasts. Leave us a review. We would really really appreciate.

1384
01:05:46,920 --> 01:05:48,559
It's such a good way for you to help out

1385
01:05:48,559 --> 01:05:50,679
the show, and be sure to also pick up a

1386
01:05:50,719 --> 01:05:54,079
copy of Frank DeVito's new book, jd Vance and the

1387
01:05:54,079 --> 01:05:57,719
Future of the Republican Party. I will be right back

1388
01:05:57,719 --> 01:06:01,000
here next week with more, so until then, just remember

1389
01:06:01,360 --> 01:06:03,320
the truth hurts, but it won't kill you.