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Speaker 1: I've been bragging to you about Cobblestone on Main and

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one on nine West Main Street in the village of

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Webster for as long as I've been doing the podcast,

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and the reason is it's got an upscale bar, a warm,

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inviting atmosphere. It's just fun. When you walk in there,

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your mood could go from really lousy to great, or

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from great to over the top. I'm just saying, it's

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just always a happy vibe, and that's because the food

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is fantastic. The shareables are so delicious. I love going there.

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It's great for intimate dining, it's great for hanging out

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with friends and family. But don't take my word for it.

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Listen to Ashley. Ashley writes, we went last night and

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I haven't stopped thinking about the food ever since. Everything,

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including appetizers and entrees, was all delicious and could tell

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was fresh. High quality drinks were also awesome with choices,

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I wasn't expecting to have his options.

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Speaker 2: That's what Ashley writes.

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Speaker 1: I don't think there's much more I need to say

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other than Cobblestone on Maine one on nine West Main

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Street in the village of Webster. When a family legal

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issue disrupts your life, whole world can stand still. At

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Circu Law, they understand that family matters require more than

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families through their most challenging moments, divorce proceedings, child custody arrangements,

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family legal matters like walking a tightrope. You need steady,

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experienced guidance to reach the other side, and that's exactly

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attorneys work tirelessly each day for one purpose, the betterment

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what matters most. Call them at five eight five three

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their website site at circulaw dot com. Circu Law helping

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families get back to what matters most.

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Speaker 2: Welme suis no sign said, we will want you.

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Speaker 3: Let welcome to another episode of Bill Lighten.

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Speaker 2: Mint.

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Speaker 1: I I think that song.

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Speaker 2: To me, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Scott McGinnis will agree or not, defines the eighties

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in a way.

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Speaker 2: I absolutely think so, don't you. I really do.

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Speaker 1: I think that's like the like if you were to say,

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what was the eighties musically, attitude everything? When we had

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yuppies like right young? What was the young professionals no

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kids or something like that, or that was something else

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I don't even remember. But there were all these these

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different terms and acronyms that came out, and it was

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about power and even at the world level we had

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the Cold War going on, and you know all this stuff.

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Speaker 2: Uh.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Scott McGinnis is the guest on this episode of

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The Lightment. He was on the last one with the right.

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They are from the Mental Health Counseling Department at Saint

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John Fisher University. But there are so many layers to

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you and different things.

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Speaker 2: That you know.

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Speaker 1: But you asked for this song in particular, and I

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don't know why.

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Speaker 2: So we were talking about Sirius XM Eighties channel last time,

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and I didn't think the Billina Carlisle Heaven as a

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place on her song was going to fit. And we

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were also talking about the Last Dance. So the Alan

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Parsons Project Serious was another one that I was like, Ah,

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that would be a good intro, but maybe that's something

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when you get the entire wise council on.

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Speaker 1: Yes, Oh, that would be a really great thing, you know.

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Speaker 2: But we were talking about the eighties and that's the

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song that I think of when I think of the eighties,

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and it's my mom's favorite song too. Oh this is

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your mom's favorite song?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, there's nothing about Tears from Fears because they

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had a couple They had another.

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Speaker 2: Song head over Hughes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Shout Shout and I Go Shout was like the

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simplest song to write.

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Speaker 2: Mind There were just like no lyrics to it.

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Speaker 1: It was just shout, shout, let it all out. But

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again it was you know, there are sometimes where I

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listen to music differently today than I ever did, and

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I hear songs and I'll go, well, have they been

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trying to tell us? Because you'll talk to artists, or

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you'll hear artists or read an article and they'll say

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I wrote that song in five minutes, and you go,

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how is that possible? I wrote that song five minutes,

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and I will say I believe that there's something else.

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You're tapped in to the source that is of all things,

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and it just flows through you.

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Speaker 2: And when you're.

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Speaker 1: Open like a channel like that, you create beautiful things.

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But you have to be the vessel by which it comes.

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And if music is your thing, then it comes. And

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I listen to the music sometimes and I go, there's

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a message. I don't know that it's the artist trying

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to tell us the message. I think it's something greater

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than that. I agree completely. And you think about somebody

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like Dolly Parton who wrote I Will Always Love You

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and Joelene in the same day, and two of the

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great I didn't know that, yeah, and two of the

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greatest songs I think have have you been written and

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covered and performed.

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Speaker 2: But I think you're absolutely right. There's this flow state

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that people get into where you're just in the zone,

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or maybe it's coming from some divine inspiration there as well.

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Speaker 1: Right, And we hear things like writer's block and that

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sort of thing, and I always wonder like those are

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the things that we need to move past and through

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and maybe we'll get to this to a little later,

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but I think everybody knows that. Or you get going

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on something and then you're afraid to take the next step,

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or you don't know what it is, what the next

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move would be, so instead of just being calm and

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waiting and finding the inspiring thing or what the best

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feeling in that moment would be to do, I don't

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know how to describe that, but a little chaotic in

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her head. And I see it with even my own sons.

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I think I've learned more about myself by watching them,

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which is an odd thing, but I've learned about Oh boy,

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that's not how you want to do this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there's it's so hard to wait for

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that flow state or that inspiration, and I think that

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there's a lot of merit in just putting something on

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your calendar and showing up. It's that old adages. If

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you hang around in a barber shop and long enough,

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you're you're gonna end up getting a haircut. So if

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you're writing something soon enough, that crappy paragraph is going

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to turn into perhaps a better page or a crappy page,

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and so on and so forth. Or at least that

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was the approach that I took when I was writing

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my dissertation.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and articles and things that you have to write

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even now. Yeah, I know that you. You had sent

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me some audio and things, and some of it was

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about the dark web. And the dark web is an

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interesting piece to me because I I really don't know

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much about it at all. I brought it up once

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on the podcast and my son who's fourteen, was in

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here and he goes, oh yeah, and starts spouting it out.

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But there's a whole the even it has its own mascot.

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It's like the purple onion or something.

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Speaker 2: But I don't know.

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Speaker 1: But everything that you could possibly want. I always thought

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in America you could get anything you wanted, But I

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wonder if that's even.

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Speaker 2: The world now.

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Speaker 1: But whatever you want you can find. If you needed

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a kidney and you can't get a kidney and you

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went to the dark web or the black market or whatever,

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you'll find whatever you need.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Some of one of the audio clips that I

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sent you is of a gentleman named Ross Olbrick who's

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currently in federal prison right now serving a double life

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sentence plus forty years because he created the first, we'll say,

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the first and well known dark web market called silk road.

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But you mentioned the kidney on the dark Web, and

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in addition to goods and services and substances, there was

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at one point some things that were sale body part

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wise as well. Really, so if I don't know the

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extent to which something like that you would be able

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to do via the dark web at this point, but

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at least ten years ago that would be something that

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would be a reality.

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Speaker 1: How did it become the dark web? And why is

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there always? I guess the bigger question was b is

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why is there always a darker side?

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Speaker 2: I mean, is that too big of a question? No,

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it's a wonderful question, and I'm wondering. I think if

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you played that dark Web opener audio, I think that

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we would be able to get into that. The dark

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web is known as the Internet's evil twin the dark Web,

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it's a large chunk of the Internet.

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Speaker 4: People selling illegal goods on the dark Web.

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Speaker 3: They are cracking the underground world of drugs smuggling found

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on what's called the dark web.

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Speaker 1: It's the message law enforcement officials are sending to vendors

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on the dark web.

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Speaker 5: And today some of the most prolific drug suppliers use

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what's called the dark web, which is a collection of

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hidden websites that you can only access if you mask

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your identity and your location.

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Speaker 2: So it's dnt that I get from the dark web heroin, opium, cannabis, ecstasy,

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psychedelic stimulants, opioids, and here they are subpoxycode in all

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of those codeine, black.

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Speaker 1: Tar, heroin, Chuck Shulaven, they have her.

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Speaker 2: They're all listed in the light of death. Unbelievable.

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Speaker 6: Today, Attorney General Jeff Sessions targeting dark web drug purveyors

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with a new federal law enforcement initiative called j CODE,

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the Joint Criminal Opioid Darknet Enforcement Team j CODE.

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Speaker 1: I kind of like it, dude.

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Speaker 3: This is dark web.

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Speaker 1: Students can actually purchase attacks to be launched against their

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school network to prevent them from having to take a

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test wow.

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Speaker 7: Where they can actually purchase a hacker to change their grades.

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Speaker 3: The Obscurian city.

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Speaker 1: Underbilly of the Internet, we.

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Speaker 7: Hit the jackpot in the dark web.

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Speaker 6: We would pretend to be one of the true believers.

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Speaker 5: The Internet has a little known and mysterious twin known

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as the dark web.

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Speaker 3: It's a place where online service is offering illicit drugs

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and hitmen are just one click away. The Darknet is

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mostly not.

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Speaker 2: The bad guys.

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Speaker 8: The darkness is no longer a den for dealers and

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a hideout for whistleblowers.

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Speaker 7: It's already going mainstream.

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Speaker 1: Anyone who is searching the dark web from say a

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tour browser is probably being watched. So what exactly is

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this dark side of the Internet?

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Speaker 2: As I heard in.

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Speaker 1: There just reminded me going back to the eighties.

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Speaker 2: There was the.

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Speaker 1: Movie War Games with the Matthew Broderick and Isaac Kid.

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They were teaching us how to program simple, really simple

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on the Apple two or whatever, and I used to

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always want to try to break in and change my grades.

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And it was years later Matthew Broderick had another movie

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where he actually got to tap in and change his

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grades in Ferris Bueller, and I was like, man, how

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is that? But if I knew you could hire a hacker,

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I would have been so tempted to do that.

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Speaker 2: I would never know.

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Speaker 1: But there's that dark side, and they're saying now that

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it's going a little more mainstream, talk to me about

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what you know on the dark west.

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Speaker 2: Sure, So let's back up a little bit. My background

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is in clinical work, so I'm a mental health counselor.

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But I've worked with folks who struggle with substance use

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disorders and co occurring mental health disorders. So in the past,

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when I was in a community agency, it wouldn't be

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uncommon for somebody who has let's say, a really bad

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cocaine use disorder and a psychotic disorder to come and

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see counseling services from where I was. So my interest

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in the dark Web when I was going down the

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path of academia, came from the substances that were being

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sourced there and just the way that drug sourcing was

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being changed. And also in that clip you heard Chuck Schumer,

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New York so own Chuck Schumer. You heard from former

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Attorney General Jeff Sessions in there, and he was talking

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about the formation of j CODE and trying to crack

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down on opioids. And when I was doing my dissertation

247
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many years ago, at this point, there were probably less

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than thirty or forty academic articles written on the dark Web.

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And what Jeff Sessions was saying at the time is, Hey,

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we've got this really bad opioid epidemic going on, and

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what we think is happening is these dark web markets

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are influencing the sourcing and contributing in a really negative

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way to opioid use that is going on illegally. But

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there wasn't any data, at least any data that I

255
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that I was able to find at that point. So

256
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I wanted to go investigate some of the experiences people

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had sourcing their opioids from the dark Web and what

258
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that really entailed. So I was the first mental health

259
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counselor to do that, really. Yeah, Usually it was reserved

260
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for criminologists who were interested in.

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Speaker 1: So you got when you say reserved, did you have

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special access? Like here, illicit things are happening on the

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dark Web. You don't want to get caught over there.

264
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I think even if someone knew you were browsing it,

265
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they're gonna think you're uh, suspicious of some kind of

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or you will be suspected of some kind of nefarious act.

267
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So did you have some kind of clearance to go

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and search this out for academia?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, whenever you're doing any kind of research, you

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have to go through a human subjects review board to

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make sure that your research is ethical and that you're

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not harming anybody in the process. And when I was

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doing my PhD at the University of Rochester. I was

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the first student to do any kind of dark web research,

275
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So I kind of gave the good people over there

276
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in it a little bit of a heart attack. Yes,

277
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that's sure, I wanted to pursue and investigate a little bit.

278
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So what we heard in that clip, and you had

279
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mentioned the purple onion earlier in the mascot. There are

280
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so many misconceptions when it comes to the dark web

281
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and the terms that are used to describe it. It's

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often used interchangeably with deep web, which is also something

283
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that is a different phrase as well. So that was

284
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a smattering of news clips, and we'll start from the beginning.

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The quote unquote dark web is actually kind of a

286
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really boring place, And if you remember using the Internet

287
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back in the late nineties where there were create your

288
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own web pages from GeoCities and angel fire, that's what

289
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it just kind of reminds me of, honestly. And some

290
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of the uses for it, say, the majority of the

291
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uses for it are for folks who are in an

292
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area where there's an oppressive government regime. So if you

293
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don't have freedom of speech, you're able to log on,

294
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communicate and share different news via the dark Web because

295
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it's all encrypted, which is also why it becomes a

296
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really good place to conduct business that is illegal because

297
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of that encryption. But that is really what that was

298
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intended for. Initially, it was actually a project by the

299
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US Navy that they abandoned and then got picked up

300
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by other folks who are interested in that kind of technology.

301
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And then.

302
00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:04,599
Speaker 1: So the idea, even with the Navy was to help people.

303
00:17:05,079 --> 00:17:10,839
So the intention was pure, like many things or positive,

304
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we are trying to help those that are oppressed have

305
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a voice.

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Speaker 2: I think the intention initially.

307
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Speaker 1: Was for the US Navy well to find out what's

308
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going on to So maybe it wasn't as pure as

309
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I'm saying. Maybe it was like a little bit of

310
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a spy. Hey tell us what's happening in your country,

311
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so we kind of have a heads up.

312
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Speaker 2: Yeah, Okay, I think that it was the folks who

313
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picked it up post Navy really had good intentions with

314
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it and wanted to develop that technology for the betterment

315
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of communication for folks.

316
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Speaker 1: Okay, and then who picks it up after do you

317
00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:50,480
have to get permission from the Navy to continue on

318
00:17:50,599 --> 00:17:52,480
with this? If they abandoned the project. How do you

319
00:17:52,559 --> 00:17:53,839
find that's even happening?

320
00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:58,440
Speaker 2: That piece of it I'm too aware of, but I

321
00:17:58,559 --> 00:18:02,359
know that many years later it Like you mentioned the

322
00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:06,119
purple onion, it is the mascot for the tor browsers, right,

323
00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:10,119
and it's called onion rousing onion routing, So tour stands

324
00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:16,000
for the onion router and the I didn't know that. Yeah,

325
00:18:16,039 --> 00:18:17,200
so that's so.

326
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Speaker 1: The intention though, again wasn't to sell body parts or

327
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drugs or anything like that.

328
00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:26,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, initially that was not the intention of that.

329
00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:30,559
Speaker 1: So here's more of a I don't know what you

330
00:18:30,599 --> 00:18:34,640
would classify this question as, but what what is it

331
00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:37,839
that attracts when something like that's created?

332
00:18:38,519 --> 00:18:40,400
Speaker 2: And I believe that all of life.

333
00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:43,599
Speaker 1: Is attraction attraction, attraction, we're vibration. And if you don't

334
00:18:43,599 --> 00:18:48,160
believe we're vibration, go study the bumblebee. Bumblebee's wings should

335
00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:51,160
not lift the bumblebee, It's absolutely it should not. The

336
00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:54,160
bumblebee vibrates and it has like a hollow chamber and

337
00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:59,319
it's all vibration. And they can withstand strong winds and

338
00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:02,720
flying a straight line and it's all vibration. And so

339
00:19:02,759 --> 00:19:05,960
the whole world is energy. So what is attracting? How

340
00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:07,759
do these people all of a sudden go It's like

341
00:19:07,799 --> 00:19:11,240
a bat signal went out and all the bad guys go, Hey,

342
00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:12,440
you know what I'm saying.

343
00:19:12,559 --> 00:19:17,640
Speaker 2: That's what it sort of feels like. It's I think

344
00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:21,440
it's really hard to especially in the case of Ross Oldbrick,

345
00:19:21,519 --> 00:19:26,920
to say that somebody like him was a like a

346
00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:28,279
quote unquote a bad guy.

347
00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:31,960
Speaker 1: Okay, So this was my question about, Hey, why is

348
00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:34,200
he getting a life sentence for creating a market where

349
00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:37,640
people used He didn't say to you, he just created

350
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a marketplace.

351
00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:42,680
Speaker 2: He just created the marketplace. So in twenty eleven, he

352
00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:46,839
used the tour browser service Hidden Services, and he coupled

353
00:19:46,839 --> 00:19:51,200
it with Bitcoin's payment system, which was the first of

354
00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:56,480
its kind ever. And Bitcoin itself is not anonymous. It

355
00:19:56,519 --> 00:19:58,319
can be really it can be difficult to track, but

356
00:19:58,799 --> 00:20:01,720
it is not inherently anonymous. But you put those two

357
00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:05,039
services together and it becomes really difficult to understand where

358
00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:10,160
people are shipping goods and where they're ending up and spent.

359
00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:14,079
There's a whole nother piece of this where mail from

360
00:20:15,079 --> 00:20:18,240
other countries don't always have electronic tracking bars on it,

361
00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:21,319
so we're getting tons of packages into our country that

362
00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:26,359
we're not exactly sure where they're coming from either. Oh,

363
00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:30,240
which is you know another piece that plays out the

364
00:20:30,279 --> 00:20:35,079
physical address piece of receiving something in the mail. So

365
00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:39,720
Ross was somebody was really influenced by libertarian politics, and

366
00:20:40,039 --> 00:20:44,400
he felt that anybody out there should have say over

367
00:20:44,519 --> 00:20:46,799
what they decided to do with their body and how

368
00:20:46,839 --> 00:20:49,160
they treat their body and what they put into their body.

369
00:20:50,079 --> 00:20:55,880
And that was the catalyst. How is this kind of thinking?

370
00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:59,640
I don't So that was that was the catalyst for

371
00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:04,559
the so Road and he was very influenced.

372
00:21:04,599 --> 00:21:08,039
Speaker 1: An interesting name because I think that was the trade

373
00:21:08,039 --> 00:21:09,440
path to China.

374
00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:16,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. So he was really interested in the drug

375
00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:18,759
war as well, in the way that that has been

376
00:21:18,799 --> 00:21:21,799
handled in the United States. Push against it, You're only

377
00:21:21,839 --> 00:21:25,240
going to get more. And that's I mean, that's what

378
00:21:25,319 --> 00:21:29,359
he found essentially when he after he was caught. So

379
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:33,799
he created the space where vendors could go and say, hey,

380
00:21:33,799 --> 00:21:37,160
I'm selling this brand of opioid or I'm selling this

381
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:42,599
brand of psychoactive substance, and just tell me the amount

382
00:21:42,599 --> 00:21:44,160
that you want. I'll tell you all about the chemical

383
00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:47,240
properties of it. So this was something he was doing.

384
00:21:47,759 --> 00:21:50,640
No no, No, he provided the space he just made

385
00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:56,279
and said I made this space. Who do you here?

386
00:21:56,279 --> 00:21:58,440
Speaker 1: Would be the question, how do you market that?

387
00:21:58,680 --> 00:21:59,200
Speaker 2: You know what I mean?

388
00:21:59,519 --> 00:22:02,359
Speaker 1: He must have known people then that because as you're

389
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:04,799
talking about this, and I'm sorry I keep interrupting you,

390
00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:10,559
but as you're talking about this, we hear illicit we

391
00:22:10,599 --> 00:22:15,160
talk about illicit drugs. Some of those drugs, used in

392
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:21,880
a controlled way have greatly improved people's human experience.

393
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:25,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's absolutely true. And in some of the

394
00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:29,920
early academic literature looking at just studying dark red marketplaces

395
00:22:30,039 --> 00:22:33,319
or the Silk Road in particular, there was a contingency

396
00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:36,519
of folks who were just looking to get psychoactive substances

397
00:22:36,559 --> 00:22:38,160
like psilocybin md m A.

398
00:22:38,559 --> 00:22:44,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, well mdls, right, analyst, And again some of those

399
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:49,359
are used in psychotherapy, I believe, or some am I

400
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:50,079
saying that wrong?

401
00:22:50,279 --> 00:22:51,720
Speaker 2: No, you're you're correct.

402
00:22:52,039 --> 00:22:56,039
Speaker 1: The the mdm A I thought was more of a

403
00:22:56,039 --> 00:22:56,799
a rave drug.

404
00:22:57,839 --> 00:23:00,839
Speaker 2: There there were there's research out there or to suggest

405
00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:05,519
that it works really well in couples therapy. Really. Yes, However,

406
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:11,680
what makes men listen is that what it does, the

407
00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:17,279
the oxytocin that is released the bonding chemical is what

408
00:23:17,319 --> 00:23:21,000
they were getting after I believe that, But the FDA

409
00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:23,559
actually just came out with a summer and said, hey,

410
00:23:23,559 --> 00:23:28,440
there's no therapeutic therapeutic use for this, which I think

411
00:23:28,599 --> 00:23:31,440
is going to get a lot of pushback from researchers

412
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,400
who are interested in in that particular line of psycho

413
00:23:34,599 --> 00:23:41,880
active substance. But initially researchers thought that people were really

414
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:45,039
interested in dark word marketplaces because they could get more

415
00:23:45,079 --> 00:23:48,880
recreational party drugs. And then it wasn't something related to dependency,

416
00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:51,519
and then it was just a novel way of sourcing

417
00:23:51,599 --> 00:23:53,680
that you didn't have to go to the street corner,

418
00:23:53,759 --> 00:23:57,160
you didn't have to necessarily have a hook up. You

419
00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,640
could just go into your computer, log on, get what

420
00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:02,319
you needed, and then wait for it to come in

421
00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:08,920
the mail. And the vendors would disguise their shipments very cleverly,

422
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:13,839
so if you ordered like one tablet of M D

423
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:16,880
M A, it might be shipped in a greeting card

424
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:19,680
on the back of a photo that is in the

425
00:24:20,839 --> 00:24:24,960
that is in the greening card. Wow. Yeah, yeah, So

426
00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:27,759
I want I just want to also say sidebar here.

427
00:24:28,039 --> 00:24:32,799
My my background is psychology and mental health, so computing

428
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,519
is an interest of mine, but it's not my my

429
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:39,160
pure discipline. So if there are facts that I'm getting

430
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,240
wrong about just the computing piece of this, then that,

431
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:44,440
you know, I first to admit.

432
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 1: That, Yeah, anybody who goes onto that it's the story.

433
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,160
Can we play the Ross audio?

434
00:24:51,839 --> 00:24:53,920
Speaker 2: Yes? So can I Can I give a little bit of.

435
00:24:54,039 --> 00:24:56,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, give me a little background because I'm I'm curious

436
00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:58,519
about that. I'm not I was not familiar with.

437
00:24:58,559 --> 00:25:03,160
Speaker 2: Him, So before he play the audio, I will say

438
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:07,200
that again, this is a polarizing issue, and it's a

439
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,400
political issue because we're talking about substance use and that

440
00:25:11,519 --> 00:25:15,720
often divides people. But Ross is he's serving his divile

441
00:25:15,759 --> 00:25:19,119
life sentence right now plus forty years. But Trump said

442
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:21,960
that he is going to commute his sentence on day one.

443
00:25:22,759 --> 00:25:27,200
So Trump went to the Libertarian conference, he initially got

444
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:29,200
booed off the stage until he mentioned that, and then

445
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:31,920
he went to the Bitcoin conference two months later and

446
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,759
said I'm going to commute a sentence. So it'll be

447
00:25:34,839 --> 00:25:37,640
interesting to see if he actually follows through with that

448
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:41,319
and Ross gets out. Oh, but this clip that we're

449
00:25:41,319 --> 00:25:45,039
going to hear is was from an organization called Story

450
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:49,440
corps where they were trying to just capture people's narratives

451
00:25:49,559 --> 00:25:53,839
about their lives. And this was captured when Ross was

452
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:56,039
running the Silk Road. Nobody knew he was running the

453
00:25:56,079 --> 00:25:57,759
Silk Road, and he was hanging out with one of

454
00:25:57,799 --> 00:26:00,119
his friends and they're in a museum one day and

455
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:02,000
they just happened to pop into one of these booths

456
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:06,079
and recorded some narratives. So he's talking about Ross is

457
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:07,680
going to talk about his hopes and dreams.

458
00:26:08,599 --> 00:26:11,319
Speaker 1: So this is just a random thing that he did

459
00:26:11,759 --> 00:26:14,240
in a museum. You know, step in here and tell

460
00:26:14,319 --> 00:26:16,079
us something, and you just think that sounds fun.

461
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:23,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, with his with his best friend Renee. Okay, Oh,

462
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:26,440
not any more questions for that's Ross. Yeah.

463
00:26:26,599 --> 00:26:28,480
Speaker 7: Future future out like, what are you going to do

464
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:47,759
over the next five years? One sentence? Na, I'm gonna

465
00:26:47,759 --> 00:26:50,960
do a few things. Someone says, is enough, damn, But

466
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,359
I want to want to I'm pretty sure I want

467
00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:55,440
to start a family in the next five years.

468
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:55,920
Speaker 2: That suck.

469
00:26:57,279 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 7: And uh and just yeah, make make more friends and

470
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:04,720
close people I love.

471
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:07,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to focus on.

472
00:27:09,559 --> 00:27:10,720
Speaker 7: Being more connected to people.

473
00:27:11,759 --> 00:27:12,160
Speaker 5: Okay.

474
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:22,920
Speaker 7: And twenty years coinersh, I want to have had a

475
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,920
substantial positive impact on the future of humanity. About that time,

476
00:27:28,559 --> 00:27:31,480
you think you're gonna live forever? I think it's possibility.

477
00:27:33,319 --> 00:27:36,440
I honestly do. I think I might live further in

478
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:41,160
some form by that time. And technology is changing so fast. Yeah,

479
00:27:41,839 --> 00:27:46,759
well I'll fack from there. Sweet.

480
00:27:48,319 --> 00:27:50,519
Speaker 1: And we didn't know, or he didn't know then that

481
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:54,039
what is his his personal sense?

482
00:27:54,079 --> 00:27:57,759
Speaker 2: Does he have a wife or anybody, or he's not married?

483
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:03,559
He was incarcerated. How old he is? I think he's

484
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:04,400
forty one?

485
00:28:04,559 --> 00:28:07,400
Speaker 1: Okay, so a younger guy, I mean, I I depending

486
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:09,359
on what age of life you're at, forty one.

487
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:10,599
Speaker 2: Can be older, young, I guess.

488
00:28:11,079 --> 00:28:17,759
Speaker 1: But the uh so, I'm surprised. We're always looking for

489
00:28:17,799 --> 00:28:22,920
someone to pin something on, I feel like and it

490
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:27,480
sounds like he got pinned out for creating this opportunity

491
00:28:27,519 --> 00:28:32,240
that was used incorrectly. Now I guess he too was

492
00:28:32,319 --> 00:28:36,319
saying you should be able to get anything you want. Yeah,

493
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:39,519
I mean, I have often thought what would happen? What

494
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:43,079
happens in the countries? And this is an interesting discussion

495
00:28:43,119 --> 00:28:47,319
I had as a kid with my father, who was,

496
00:28:48,039 --> 00:28:52,359
you know, philosophical and a doctor and all that.

497
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:52,720
Speaker 2: But the.

498
00:28:54,559 --> 00:28:56,759
Speaker 1: He would always say, look, at the countries that have

499
00:28:56,839 --> 00:29:00,640
legalized drugs, they're not leading nations at the world world.

500
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:05,119
And I don't know if that's necessarily true or not

501
00:29:05,759 --> 00:29:07,880
because at the time, but you know, you think of

502
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,319
Amsterdam and stuff, it's more of a party, they're not.

503
00:29:10,559 --> 00:29:12,720
I haven't seen a whole lot, but I haven't done

504
00:29:12,759 --> 00:29:14,799
any research either to say otherwise.

505
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:18,359
Speaker 2: You know what I'm saying. Yeah, if you look at Portugal,

506
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:24,759
they had a really really awful opioid overdose opioid overdose

507
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:28,319
death issue that was going on. So what they did

508
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:30,680
is they took the opposite approach of many of the

509
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,279
things that we've tried to do here to curb the

510
00:29:33,319 --> 00:29:38,680
effects of opioid use, and they decriminalized it. And instead

511
00:29:38,839 --> 00:29:42,160
of going the road of using substances, we're going to

512
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:46,839
incarcerate you, they decided that they were going to connect

513
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:51,880
people to rehabilitation and then social programs. So if you

514
00:29:52,039 --> 00:29:55,920
were a mechanic, for example, and you developed this really

515
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,680
bad habit, you can go to rehab, you'd be involved

516
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:02,359
in social programs. Then they would pay half of your

517
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,039
wages then to go and work as a mechanic again.

518
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:07,960
And they found that that approach has been much more

519
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:12,920
successful sure than the Hey, we're going to sentence you

520
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:16,240
to at least what the minimum is and then you're

521
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:17,400
kind of on your own after that.

522
00:30:17,759 --> 00:30:22,640
Speaker 1: Sometimes I think that we have as a society, or

523
00:30:22,839 --> 00:30:27,400
maybe as human beings, done things wrong when it comes

524
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:34,960
to substance abuse. So I I will say this. I

525
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,200
think it's a little bit of a controversial statement. I'm

526
00:30:37,279 --> 00:30:40,039
not sure it's a disease these things. I think it's

527
00:30:40,079 --> 00:30:43,559
an escape. I think that things are hard, and the

528
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,759
human experience gets difficult, and you look for an escape,

529
00:30:47,359 --> 00:30:50,519
and we tell you to relax, relax, so you find

530
00:30:50,519 --> 00:30:52,880
a way to relax, and then we yell at you

531
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,319
for having this problem, and then we punish you, and

532
00:30:56,319 --> 00:30:57,880
then we tell you this is bad and we don't

533
00:30:57,880 --> 00:30:59,920
want this, and we put you in jail. And it

534
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:06,359
seems to be a very very awkward way. Sometimes people

535
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:10,200
have to go through things. I don't understand it myself,

536
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:13,799
but I sometimes your journey needs to be that you

537
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:17,200
overcame this, or maybe this is your demise, it's your

538
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:21,240
ex I don't know, but I do think like each

539
00:31:21,359 --> 00:31:27,160
person's journey here on the on on earth is different

540
00:31:27,359 --> 00:31:31,319
in their own and as long as you're not bringing harm,

541
00:31:31,359 --> 00:31:34,000
which I believe would be more of a libertarian philosophy

542
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:35,960
than anything who cares.

543
00:31:37,119 --> 00:31:42,079
Speaker 2: I'm gonna I'm gonna reference psych psychiatrists, psychologist, and gay

544
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:45,160
or Mati and he wrote the best book that I

545
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:47,680
have ever read on addictions called In the Realm of

546
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:53,200
Hungry Ghosts, if anybody's interested out there, But he frames

547
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:58,400
substance use as just a coping coping mechanism for trauma.

548
00:31:58,559 --> 00:32:03,240
And that's not only is framework for it, that's the

549
00:32:03,279 --> 00:32:06,480
framework for the majority of folks who are working with

550
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:11,119
folks who have substance use problems. So if you are

551
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:14,240
somebody who has a trauma history, and the majority of

552
00:32:14,319 --> 00:32:16,920
clients who I've seen who have struggled the substances to

553
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:21,559
have pretty severe trauma histories, then you are looking for

554
00:32:21,599 --> 00:32:24,440
that quote unquote escape or that method of coping. In

555
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:27,880
what substance users are really good at is they found

556
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:31,839
something that effectively takes away all of the pain for them.

557
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,279
But underlying all of that is just an incredible amount

558
00:32:36,319 --> 00:32:40,400
of trauma. And it doesn't have to be like when

559
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:43,720
we think of trauma, we're often describing it as big

560
00:32:43,799 --> 00:32:48,960
T trauma, which are things like natural disasters or personal

561
00:32:49,039 --> 00:32:51,759
where our personal safety is violated. So if somebody is

562
00:32:51,799 --> 00:32:59,720
assaulted or in or really violently assaulted, attacked, or they've

563
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:02,759
just had something targeted at them, that's what we call

564
00:33:02,759 --> 00:33:05,960
like a big T trauma. It doesn't have to be that.

565
00:33:06,079 --> 00:33:08,119
It can be a small T trauma. It can be

566
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,200
these things that we encounter day to day that are

567
00:33:11,359 --> 00:33:13,839
just the mild humiliations and getting through the day that

568
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:18,000
can lead somebody down this path of well, I need

569
00:33:18,039 --> 00:33:20,319
to find another way to cope because this isn't doing it.

570
00:33:20,359 --> 00:33:21,400
This isn't doing it for me. H.

571
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that I'm not going to say

572
00:33:25,279 --> 00:33:29,119
that it doesn't lead to compounding some problems for people.

573
00:33:29,599 --> 00:33:34,000
You know, your behavior not as in control of yourself,

574
00:33:34,079 --> 00:33:36,279
and so you make choices and you do things and

575
00:33:36,799 --> 00:33:38,799
you know then and we seem to go down a

576
00:33:38,839 --> 00:33:43,359
slippery slope. But I think that if maybe if everybody

577
00:33:43,359 --> 00:33:45,680
started to look at addiction that way, it would be better.

578
00:33:46,119 --> 00:33:50,400
Because I sometimes think that there has to be personal

579
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:55,119
responsibility to a certain degree. And I would say that

580
00:33:55,759 --> 00:33:58,559
I and I'll ask you certainly haven't studied this stuff.

581
00:33:59,079 --> 00:34:04,039
That the responsibility at times is even with mental illness

582
00:34:04,559 --> 00:34:06,000
I don't have to.

583
00:34:05,759 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 2: Put up with you being an asshole.

584
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:12,320
Speaker 1: I can have my boundaries and we can draw these lines,

585
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:16,440
and you have created you've compounded your problem. If we

586
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:18,519
can get to the root of whatever it is the

587
00:34:18,559 --> 00:34:20,599
trauma is, and it could be anything, it could be

588
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:25,920
simply a domineering parent at some point that you could go, well,

589
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:28,360
it came from a great family, but you don't know

590
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:30,559
what it was like in there or how it affected

591
00:34:30,599 --> 00:34:37,440
the person. You know that a little bit more open mindedness,

592
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:41,760
but also kind of boundaries are okay?

593
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:46,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think having personal boundaries where you are protecting

594
00:34:46,119 --> 00:34:49,840
your own space and your own well being are absolutely

595
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:54,679
You don't have to acquiesce to any demands related to right,

596
00:34:55,239 --> 00:35:01,719
related to any of that. For somebody who is using

597
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:05,119
substances and pretty heavily often those boundaries have just been

598
00:35:05,199 --> 00:35:06,639
violated repeatedly. Sure.

599
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:09,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, but but here what I was gonna say, and

600
00:35:09,679 --> 00:35:13,239
I'll ask you, is the idea that it's a disease

601
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:15,599
giving you an excuse.

602
00:35:16,519 --> 00:35:18,719
Speaker 2: I wouldn't say it's okay, and I wouldn't say it's

603
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:20,920
it's an excuse because you look at all of the

604
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:22,320
I have a disease.

605
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,079
Speaker 1: I can't help myself and and I always think, boy,

606
00:35:25,119 --> 00:35:25,639
that's sort.

607
00:35:25,519 --> 00:35:26,400
Speaker 2: Of a weak way out.

608
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:28,639
Speaker 1: You have all the control.

609
00:35:29,559 --> 00:35:36,519
Speaker 2: I believe they're so or I don't know. I don't know.

610
00:35:36,679 --> 00:35:38,800
I'm telling you that would be my belief. Am I

611
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:42,320
wrong in that? I sincerely you took. You take a

612
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:45,119
look at somebody who's got a really bad opioid habit,

613
00:35:45,199 --> 00:35:48,119
or even just a mild opioid habit, and they want

614
00:35:48,159 --> 00:35:50,800
to stop, but they can't because the withdrawal symptoms from

615
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:54,760
that are just horrific. Right, Yeah, so your your nose

616
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:58,760
is running and you've got terrible fever, flu like symptoms

617
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:02,039
that there's just really know a sign that that is

618
00:36:02,079 --> 00:36:06,039
going to end, because opioid withdrawal can last. You look

619
00:36:06,079 --> 00:36:08,199
at literature, some say that it's, oh, it's just like

620
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:11,039
mild flu like symptoms. I can tell you it's not

621
00:36:11,079 --> 00:36:13,599
mild fool like symptoms. The majority of the time, you've

622
00:36:13,639 --> 00:36:19,119
got somebody who up to six weeks just fever daily.

623
00:36:19,599 --> 00:36:27,360
You can't keep anything down the way you want to method, Yeah,

624
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:31,800
you will. You'll certainly be inmciated. Is that why some people?

625
00:36:32,039 --> 00:36:35,639
And the term would be chipping. Tell me what chipping means?

626
00:36:35,639 --> 00:36:40,960
Speaker 1: So chipping is where I you know, I would ship

627
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:44,679
on the ocean starts to list one way, but when

628
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:47,320
I get if I move the barrels in the bottom

629
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:49,480
a little bit, I can even this out and get

630
00:36:49,559 --> 00:36:53,280
myself to fly right or move across the ocean correctly

631
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:56,599
as in a boat. And I'm just thinking, like, is

632
00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:59,559
that the same thing if someone chips a little bit.

633
00:36:59,679 --> 00:37:02,639
I just need a little bit to get myself right again.

634
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:05,880
I don't need to get myself into some uphoric state.

635
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:08,320
I just need a little bit. And there are rumors

636
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:15,480
that many authors, many writers Keith Richards, may chip to

637
00:37:15,679 --> 00:37:16,800
keep that, you know.

638
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:20,800
Speaker 2: Just a little bit, just a little bit. Yeah, it

639
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:22,679
makes me think of microdosing.

640
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:27,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, for exactly, I think that would be the Yeah,

641
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:29,559
that's an old school street term for microdosing.

642
00:37:29,639 --> 00:37:31,639
Speaker 2: That is exactly what that is. I never thought of

643
00:37:31,679 --> 00:37:36,320
that for well, using the example of opioids in particular,

644
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:40,239
there are medication assistant therapies out there, like a method

645
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:44,039
do maintenance program or a sybox owne program so that

646
00:37:44,079 --> 00:37:48,239
you can that'll fill the receptors and you don't feel

647
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:50,880
the effects of any withdrawal symptoms. But then you become

648
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:53,800
dependent on that because if you stop taking that, then

649
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:57,360
you will feel the opioid withdrawal after that.

650
00:37:57,519 --> 00:38:01,800
Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, and it's a hard let's not try to Yeah,

651
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:02,480
I will start it.

652
00:38:02,519 --> 00:38:06,480
Speaker 2: I wouldn't wish any I wouldn't wish that upon anybody. Yeah.

653
00:38:06,519 --> 00:38:08,000
Speaker 1: But these are the things that you could get on

654
00:38:08,039 --> 00:38:11,119
the silk web or excuse me, the Silk Road and

655
00:38:11,159 --> 00:38:15,000
the dark web. And this is why Ross Olbrich is

656
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:19,519
serving two life sentences plus forty years two life sentences?

657
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:23,119
Speaker 2: Why why that sentence? I don't, I'm not. I feel

658
00:38:23,199 --> 00:38:27,719
so ignorant about this. Again. This is like I again

659
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,719
not trying to go down a political path. But you

660
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:32,519
take a look a look at the eighth Amendment and

661
00:38:32,559 --> 00:38:34,039
it's the right to fair sentencing.

662
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:36,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it seems crazy to me.

663
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:44,000
Speaker 2: He's a non violent offender. There was speculation of whether

664
00:38:44,159 --> 00:38:48,320
he hired people to protect the interests of the Silk

665
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:51,679
Road and put out a quote unquote hit on people,

666
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:54,639
but he was never charged with that and it was

667
00:38:54,679 --> 00:38:57,320
not something that the government had pursued against him either.

668
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:01,480
So we've got this non violent offender given the sentence.

669
00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:04,239
And when he was in court he made the argument

670
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:07,039
in front of judge Catherine Forrest, who I believe is

671
00:39:07,079 --> 00:39:11,679
now retired and doing other things, that my website actually

672
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:15,719
reduced drug related harms, and there is literature to suggest

673
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:18,679
that there is data to suggest that really, And her

674
00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:22,440
response was, no drug dealers ever made that argument, and

675
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:27,039
you're making an argument of the privileged. So she gave

676
00:39:27,119 --> 00:39:30,559
him that double life sentence because she felt that his

677
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:35,320
philosophy was a threat to the way that things were

678
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:41,639
currently being handled in terms of drug use and drug regulation.

679
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:45,239
And she had a pretty lengthy quote during her sentencing

680
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:48,199
about that she felt there was a bigger threat.

681
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:52,920
Speaker 1: But we have a control problem as human beings that

682
00:39:53,119 --> 00:39:59,639
that we need to control. We don't what you're told

683
00:39:59,639 --> 00:40:02,239
all your life life look out for number one, look

684
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:05,840
out for number one. It's your journey, your path, your life,

685
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:09,920
follow your passion. They're talking bullshit. They don't want you

686
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:13,599
to do that. They don't because when you do what,

687
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:19,199
they lose control. And I'm seeing, at least as that's

688
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:21,320
the connections I'm making in my head as we're talking,

689
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:24,679
and I go, you know, you hear this from people

690
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:27,079
and we look at them and go, you conspiracy theory,

691
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:30,800
not weirdo whatever, right, And we ah they're not trying

692
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:33,119
to control you. And I often will joke that I

693
00:40:33,159 --> 00:40:35,719
live in a bubble because I just move about and

694
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:38,000
do my own thing. Even during COVID, I had friends

695
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:40,079
that owned restaurants. We needed to get rid of the food.

696
00:40:40,079 --> 00:40:41,960
We locked the doors and went aside and had blast

697
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:44,280
you know what I'm saying. Like, I still went to

698
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:46,320
work when I had the you know, the job that

699
00:40:46,599 --> 00:40:49,199
I had at the time, and so I always go

700
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:51,079
I sort of live in a bubble. But boy, there's

701
00:40:51,159 --> 00:40:56,440
an awful lot of control. And I get it in

702
00:40:56,440 --> 00:41:03,079
the sense that we can't have of unlawlessness and wildness

703
00:41:03,119 --> 00:41:08,079
and people harming themselves in a way, you know, to

704
00:41:08,119 --> 00:41:10,480
some protections. But to give a guy a double life

705
00:41:10,519 --> 00:41:16,000
sentence for creating an opportunity for people to have commerce

706
00:41:16,039 --> 00:41:19,519
in a sense right, seems crazy to me. And yet

707
00:41:19,519 --> 00:41:23,920
I'm sure there's some buddy who says, if that guy

708
00:41:24,039 --> 00:41:27,440
wasn't there, my son or daughter or loved one would

709
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:30,400
still be here because they overdosed on drugs that they

710
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:33,719
got there. And so therefore, and now what we're doing

711
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:39,159
is they're going after the dealers and treating them as murderers.

712
00:41:39,599 --> 00:41:40,840
You know, when someone overdoses.

713
00:41:42,639 --> 00:41:43,159
Speaker 2: Boy, I go.

714
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 1: But let's go back to the idea again that each

715
00:41:46,079 --> 00:41:49,840
person's journey is their own and you can't control it.

716
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:55,639
Speaker 2: That people are whether it is regulated or not. Substances

717
00:41:55,679 --> 00:41:57,599
have been here since the beginning of time. Sure, we've

718
00:41:57,599 --> 00:42:00,480
been looking at the differnal. Yeah. Yeah, people, people are

719
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:02,159
going to get it, whether it's on a street corner

720
00:42:02,599 --> 00:42:04,119
or if you order it off.

721
00:42:04,119 --> 00:42:06,960
Speaker 1: People were licking toads to get high, folks. I mean,

722
00:42:07,079 --> 00:42:11,519
you know what I'm saying, like, Okay, just we're looking

723
00:42:11,559 --> 00:42:15,079
for a way to escape whatever the pain is. But

724
00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:18,360
is there an easier way? Is there an easier way?

725
00:42:18,639 --> 00:42:22,199
And that's where that's kind of my thinking is that

726
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:25,400
there is. You just have to go for the better

727
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:29,559
feeling thought which simple to say, really simple to say,

728
00:42:30,159 --> 00:42:33,000
But think about you know, if you could just think

729
00:42:33,039 --> 00:42:36,199
of something else, right, you think of something else. I

730
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:41,320
talked about this on my podcast that I had. I've

731
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:43,679
been pretty open about substitute teaching. It was something I

732
00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:45,599
never thought I would do. When my son came to

733
00:42:45,639 --> 00:42:47,760
live with me, he's six foot one and one hundred

734
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:50,039
and ninety pounds and he's fourteen years old, and he's

735
00:42:50,079 --> 00:42:52,360
eating me out of house and home. Private coaches for

736
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:55,280
basketball are going to run me extra. This is running

737
00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:58,480
me extra, and I thought, Okay, the podcast is taking

738
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:01,039
care of the podcast. I got to get a little

739
00:43:01,039 --> 00:43:03,400
more in here. So while I continue to grow this,

740
00:43:03,599 --> 00:43:05,800
I'm going to do that during the day. So that's

741
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:09,679
why I've been substitute teaching. I'm in a class I

742
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:13,079
think kids would probably be somewhere on the spectrum. It's

743
00:43:13,079 --> 00:43:17,400
a history class. They're reading something, and one kid starts

744
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:19,360
saying to me. I said, hey, you know you're not

745
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:23,440
doing it. I can't think. I haven't slept in two days.

746
00:43:23,599 --> 00:43:25,480
My therapist brought something up to me, and it's all

747
00:43:25,519 --> 00:43:27,360
I can think about it. It's really been bothered me.

748
00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:30,480
I'm really upset about it. And so I started talking

749
00:43:30,519 --> 00:43:33,719
to him about his baseball cap and where it came

750
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:36,000
from and it's a Marlins cap, and have you been

751
00:43:36,039 --> 00:43:38,360
to the game, And then he talked about going down

752
00:43:38,519 --> 00:43:41,039
even to Tampa and to the Rays and seeing that

753
00:43:41,159 --> 00:43:43,320
and all this stuff and baseball and who he likes

754
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:44,880
and all that, and then I stopped and I said,

755
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:48,519
we thought of something else. And that's how easy it

756
00:43:48,599 --> 00:43:51,679
can be. But sometimes when we're in our own head.

757
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:52,239
Speaker 2: We can't.

758
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:55,679
Speaker 1: But if I grab that bottle, if I grab that needle,

759
00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:58,679
it takes me to a place where I'm not thinking

760
00:43:58,679 --> 00:43:59,280
about this.

761
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:03,159
Speaker 2: But what I think you hit on that example perfectly

762
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:07,199
is that you took the time to be with that student.

763
00:44:07,199 --> 00:44:10,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, to talk that that that I'm sorry to interrupt again,

764
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:14,719
That's where I feel like as a as a human,

765
00:44:15,599 --> 00:44:18,440
I can do that because I'm not a teacher. I

766
00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:21,480
don't have to get you to pass the class. I

767
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:23,440
don't have to raise the scores by ten points, and

768
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:25,000
I don't have to get you ready for a regents.

769
00:44:25,519 --> 00:44:29,840
But I can help you in the moment make life better.

770
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:33,039
And that's all I see my role as. That's all

771
00:44:33,079 --> 00:44:35,519
I see as. That's all I And I like being me,

772
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:39,079
you know right. I like I get to be myself.

773
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:43,480
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And you you valued the individual in that moment. Sure,

774
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:46,320
And there is a lot of isolation that comes along

775
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:50,079
with substance use, and there is a is often a

776
00:44:50,199 --> 00:44:53,840
lack of somebody like you to sit down and say, hey,

777
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:56,079
tell me about this and what are you interested in?

778
00:44:57,079 --> 00:45:01,760
And that is one of the things that Portugal was doing,

779
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:05,360
is that connection back to society where you could have

780
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:11,480
somebody just sit down with you, not bring a judgmental

781
00:45:11,519 --> 00:45:14,000
frame of mind and just figure out what's going on.

782
00:45:14,599 --> 00:45:17,679
You help them think of something else, and you gave

783
00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:19,280
them a reason to move forward.

784
00:45:19,519 --> 00:45:23,639
Speaker 1: What I think like sometimes is I believe we're all

785
00:45:23,679 --> 00:45:26,559
teachers in some sense. And I don't mean teachers in

786
00:45:26,599 --> 00:45:28,760
the traditional you know, I went and I got my

787
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:31,360
master's and I'll stand in front of the people because

788
00:45:32,159 --> 00:45:34,480
some of those people shouldn't be teachers, you know what

789
00:45:34,559 --> 00:45:38,000
I'm saying, I just shouldn't. But at the other end,

790
00:45:38,119 --> 00:45:42,039
I think like we're all here on a journey and.

791
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 2: We chose.

792
00:45:44,679 --> 00:45:47,000
Speaker 1: I know this sounds far out from people, but I

793
00:45:47,039 --> 00:45:50,119
believe we chose to come here. I believe we chose

794
00:45:50,159 --> 00:45:54,199
to come here. I am I maybe we've been here before.

795
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:57,119
I'm not, you know, maybe have a past life. But

796
00:45:57,239 --> 00:46:01,280
your energy and energy, we have proven scientific does not die.

797
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:05,280
So there's always energy, and there is energy in you,

798
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:07,920
and you are a vibrating being. And when you're vibrating

799
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:10,559
at a higher level. And if you don't, you know,

800
00:46:10,639 --> 00:46:13,039
believe I'll just look at radio, just look at anything,

801
00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:16,199
you know, go to your satellite. I can I can't.

802
00:46:16,639 --> 00:46:18,679
I can't hear the John Mayer station when I'm listening

803
00:46:18,679 --> 00:46:20,559
to Jimmy Buffett or Howard Stern, I can't you know

804
00:46:20,559 --> 00:46:23,280
what I mean? So what frequency already on? And where

805
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:25,679
do you want to be? And if your goal every

806
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:27,199
day is to just feel good, you're going to have

807
00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:29,800
a pretty good life. But if you let all this

808
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:33,000
other stuff bog you down, and we don't teach people that,

809
00:46:33,559 --> 00:46:37,440
and that's where I think the escapism comes. And so

810
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:41,280
then we develop problems with people who have drugs, and

811
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:45,119
then you see you see families get ruined and things.

812
00:46:45,119 --> 00:46:47,440
I mean, I'm not saying it doesn't have a real effect.

813
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:49,599
I don't mean to be glib and say that, well,

814
00:46:49,679 --> 00:46:53,760
everybody's journey is separate, but it is and and but

815
00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:57,360
at the same time, if you can just listen and

816
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:01,480
try to guide I I've become a big believer in

817
00:47:01,559 --> 00:47:05,760
that one of our jobs as parents, as people is

818
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:09,599
to almost be a matador. Come over here, it's a

819
00:47:09,639 --> 00:47:12,360
little better over here. But I want you to make

820
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:16,320
that choice. I'm gonna just sort of show you through

821
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:18,840
my example that this kind of thinking is better and

822
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:21,440
this is easier, and this is the easier way, and

823
00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:23,360
that there you can't force anybody.

824
00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:26,840
Speaker 2: There's no I don't know. I believe there's no assertion.

825
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:31,760
I think one of the stories that I've ever heard

826
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:34,840
was that there was a father who was in his

827
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:37,000
late forties and he wanted to set a good example

828
00:47:37,039 --> 00:47:39,679
for his son because his son was out partying and

829
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:44,679
really not going down a great path. And the father

830
00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:47,840
started getting up really early in the morning so that

831
00:47:48,119 --> 00:47:51,519
when his son would come home from parting partying, he

832
00:47:51,559 --> 00:47:54,119
would see his dad getting up and going to the gym.

833
00:47:54,559 --> 00:47:56,920
And they would have always had this brief interaction in

834
00:47:56,960 --> 00:48:01,559
the kitchen where just getting home, well, I'm off to

835
00:48:01,599 --> 00:48:03,960
go to the gym. Now do you want to come? No,

836
00:48:04,039 --> 00:48:05,360
I don't want to come. I want to go to bed.

837
00:48:05,639 --> 00:48:08,679
And after a while, the sun started to join them

838
00:48:08,679 --> 00:48:11,920
in the gym, and they started to get healthier and stronger,

839
00:48:12,039 --> 00:48:15,000
and then that lifestyle choice that his son mad just

840
00:48:15,199 --> 00:48:19,360
went away eventually, so modeling that behavior, showing them that

841
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:22,159
the right path goes a tremendously long one.

842
00:48:22,159 --> 00:48:24,320
Speaker 1: You've got to go patient. But we were brought up

843
00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:28,239
to be screamed at. Here's a phrase that was screamed

844
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:30,800
to me, do you need to have your head examined.

845
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:35,400
Speaker 2: Oh that is yeah, that is okay.

846
00:48:36,039 --> 00:48:40,639
Speaker 1: So tell me that you want to talk about minor traumas.

847
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:44,719
That's a trauma. Right. So if I were the one

848
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:46,000
coming home and hey, you want to go to the

849
00:48:46,039 --> 00:48:47,800
gym with me, No, you need to have your head examine,

850
00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:50,199
you're out of it, that would be that would be

851
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:53,599
the thing that doesn't work. What does that do to anybody?

852
00:48:53,639 --> 00:48:56,039
It makes you retreat like a turtle into your shell.

853
00:48:56,119 --> 00:49:00,079
You fuck these people, is the idea? Right, excuse my language.

854
00:49:00,199 --> 00:49:03,400
And that does nothing, but the father who You've got

855
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:05,920
to be patient, and you've got to realize it's not

856
00:49:06,039 --> 00:49:09,519
your life, absolutely, and you love this person, and you're

857
00:49:09,519 --> 00:49:11,280
going to keep trying to do things and you're going

858
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:13,039
to try to get them to come over here, because

859
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:17,480
it's better. When we do hard things, we feel better,

860
00:49:17,519 --> 00:49:21,000
we feel self esteem is the greatest drug, I think, right.

861
00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:23,119
Speaker 2: I think people who are getting up and doing hard

862
00:49:23,159 --> 00:49:26,280
things for themselves are setting them up for a really

863
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:28,320
good day, which turns into a really good week, which

864
00:49:28,360 --> 00:49:30,719
turns into a great month, with turns into years and

865
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:32,599
years and years, right exactly.

866
00:49:32,639 --> 00:49:36,920
Speaker 1: And I think having the optimism, then there are things

867
00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:39,920
that I'll read and see where some of this stuff

868
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:45,000
are we in total control sometimes, you know, when we

869
00:49:45,079 --> 00:49:48,559
go down to i'll call it lower frequency thinking or

870
00:49:48,639 --> 00:49:53,079
lower stuff. Are there things that then can continue to

871
00:49:53,159 --> 00:49:57,039
bring us down? Are there low frequency things that are

872
00:49:58,039 --> 00:50:01,119
I don't know that they're necessarily, but their energies they're

873
00:50:01,119 --> 00:50:05,119
almost like they would almost be like in Ghostbusters, one

874
00:50:05,159 --> 00:50:07,400
of these things that's sort of attached to you in

875
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:07,880
a way.

876
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:09,239
Speaker 2: And I hear.

877
00:50:09,679 --> 00:50:13,480
Speaker 1: These things and I I'm sort of fascinated by it,

878
00:50:13,519 --> 00:50:16,119
to be honest with you, And I don't know what

879
00:50:16,679 --> 00:50:16,880
you know.

880
00:50:17,119 --> 00:50:20,480
Speaker 2: I don't know how you view that or believe that

881
00:50:20,639 --> 00:50:23,719
or see that. Yeah, let's why don't we we can

882
00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:27,159
transition and talk about that. I do have a question

883
00:50:27,199 --> 00:50:29,000
for you, though, Yes, have you seen all of the

884
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:31,159
Ghostbusters movies? No?

885
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:33,880
Speaker 1: I think I saw one and two when they originally

886
00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:35,920
came out, but then I didn't see the new the

887
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:38,440
one with I think they had an all female cast,

888
00:50:39,039 --> 00:50:42,320
and then I think there's a new one even yep,

889
00:50:42,519 --> 00:50:43,920
and I haven't seen them.

890
00:50:44,079 --> 00:50:47,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, I saw one in two and I haven't seen

891
00:50:47,119 --> 00:50:49,519
any of the newer one. Yeah, mean either my understanding,

892
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:53,280
I can't remember the original Ghostbuster who passed away.

893
00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:56,920
Speaker 1: Oh he was also a writer too.

894
00:50:57,039 --> 00:51:01,079
Speaker 2: He did God, I'll come up with the name, but

895
00:51:01,159 --> 00:51:03,079
I can see him in my head. Yeah, me too.

896
00:51:03,159 --> 00:51:07,199
Speaker 1: And my director from Many I think he did. Did

897
00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:08,639
he do Animal House?

898
00:51:10,079 --> 00:51:13,039
Speaker 2: Maybe? I'm not sure. Yeah. One of my friends who

899
00:51:13,079 --> 00:51:14,679
I know is going to listen to this is probably

900
00:51:14,679 --> 00:51:19,480
going to be yelling, yelling at me through the speakers

901
00:51:19,519 --> 00:51:25,079
right now, because he's incredible with move with actors. And yeah,

902
00:51:25,239 --> 00:51:26,519
did you like Ghostbusters too?

903
00:51:27,159 --> 00:51:29,079
Speaker 1: No, you didn't like Ghostbusters? I don't know if I

904
00:51:29,199 --> 00:51:35,840
loved Ghostbusters. Did I like ghost I don't, I don't remember. Yes, Okay,

905
00:51:36,159 --> 00:51:38,360
that was the one. I when I went back and

906
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:42,960
watched Ghostbusters one, I wondered what all the hype was about.

907
00:51:43,039 --> 00:51:47,880
Sometimes when I saw it again, But I thought, I

908
00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:50,880
thought a lot of the improv stuff that Bill Murray

909
00:51:50,920 --> 00:51:55,559
did was pretty entertaining, and and I did like the way,

910
00:51:55,679 --> 00:52:00,239
you know, people were possessed and how it came out,

911
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:03,639
And I go, is there some again going back to

912
00:52:03,719 --> 00:52:07,679
the idea that there's a message coming through art, right,

913
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:11,280
the lyrics and music movies, these kinds of things we've

914
00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:17,280
heard for since I don't know, go back that there.

915
00:52:17,199 --> 00:52:19,280
Speaker 2: Was always these evil spirits and things.

916
00:52:20,599 --> 00:52:23,599
Speaker 1: You think of the Salem witch trials, right, which it

917
00:52:23,639 --> 00:52:28,320
could have been hysterical teenage girls just playing a claiming

918
00:52:29,119 --> 00:52:31,880
bs things about people, or maybe there was I don't know,

919
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:36,079
But are there things like we've had exorcisms and movies

920
00:52:36,119 --> 00:52:40,719
about it, right, that are based on these real experiences

921
00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:44,079
that people have? And I just wonder sometimes when you're

922
00:52:44,119 --> 00:52:46,719
at that low frequency, let's say, it become dependent on

923
00:52:47,119 --> 00:52:50,000
is there something that's helping keep you there?

924
00:52:51,559 --> 00:52:54,840
Speaker 2: That's what I wonder. Yeah, so let's don't we where

925
00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:56,840
are we go in and talk about this a little bit? Okay,

926
00:52:57,400 --> 00:52:58,800
how much time do we have?

927
00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:01,239
Speaker 1: We have as much time as you as you need

928
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:02,159
or want.

929
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:07,639
Speaker 2: So I'll I'll preface this by saying, so, as I've

930
00:53:07,679 --> 00:53:10,599
said a couple of times, my background is mental health counseling,

931
00:53:10,679 --> 00:53:14,280
and I have a doctor in counseling. I'm a licensed

932
00:53:14,320 --> 00:53:19,960
mental health counselor. And the things that I'll bring up

933
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:25,039
very shortly don't fall within the purview of that. These

934
00:53:25,039 --> 00:53:29,199
are extra things that I've become interested in and that

935
00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:34,440
I think can have a therapeutic benefit for people. Though

936
00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:37,079
I'm still very much skeptical of some of the things

937
00:53:37,079 --> 00:53:39,239
and the mechanics of the way things work, and that

938
00:53:40,119 --> 00:53:42,639
keeps me kind of one foot in, one foot out

939
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:45,800
all the time. And I'll tell you a little bit

940
00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:51,039
about my journey with this idea of this lower frequency

941
00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:57,079
in having these having attachments, and this idea because of

942
00:53:57,119 --> 00:54:00,480
the population who I used to work with every day

943
00:54:00,519 --> 00:54:04,559
in a community setting. I would go in, I would

944
00:54:04,599 --> 00:54:06,199
work with people, and by the end of the day

945
00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:09,719
every day, I'm just exhausted and I am drained, just

946
00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:16,440
absolutely drained, and I would do the standard therapies that

947
00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:20,840
were recommended to us, that were trained in. So for

948
00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:23,559
folks out there listening, if you're familiar with harm reduction

949
00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:27,599
as a psychotherapy, or if you're familiar with more popular

950
00:54:27,599 --> 00:54:32,199
approaches like cognitive behavioral therapy, they're wonderful and they work.

951
00:54:32,519 --> 00:54:36,639
But there are some folks who it just becomes really,

952
00:54:36,679 --> 00:54:41,559
really difficult to reach or notice any kind of change.

953
00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:41,360
I think.

954
00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:46,440
Speaker 1: That's such a relatable thing across doing what you do,

955
00:54:46,559 --> 00:54:49,679
for sure, but everybody can think of that person that

956
00:54:50,039 --> 00:54:53,480
just drains you, and it's an energy thing.

957
00:54:54,320 --> 00:55:01,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think so. And so i I'm wondering

958
00:55:01,199 --> 00:55:05,079
to myself, like, is there something else that is that

959
00:55:05,159 --> 00:55:07,920
I'm missing as a healthcare professional that they're not being

960
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:13,119
addressed because we're trained in Western medicine and psychotherapy, and

961
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:17,760
we've got a pretty decent training in things like pharmaceuticals

962
00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:20,840
and what people need to take to have behavior modification

963
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:25,679
and high level functioning and all of those things. So

964
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:30,000
as I am going down the road of my PhD,

965
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:34,199
I hear a podcast and sidebar, I have watched so

966
00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:37,400
many hours of professional wrestling it's it's very embarrassing at

967
00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:42,039
this point. But the podcast that I was listening to

968
00:55:42,559 --> 00:55:45,440
was Chris Jericho. If if you're familiar, yeah, I do well.

969
00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:47,360
He had a band, Yeahzzy Fazzy.

970
00:55:48,119 --> 00:55:50,679
Speaker 1: I think I interviewed Chris Jericho a few times for

971
00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:51,599
Fozzy over the.

972
00:55:51,519 --> 00:55:54,320
Speaker 2: Phone, over the phone, not in person. Very cool, very cool.

973
00:55:55,719 --> 00:55:59,960
So Chris Jericho would occasionally dip his toe into paranoral

974
00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:04,559
things and on his podcast. And I grew up a

975
00:56:04,599 --> 00:56:09,039
fan of scary movies, horror movies. My wife got me

976
00:56:09,239 --> 00:56:13,800
this scratch off board of like one hundred scary movies

977
00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:15,880
that you need to see. So we're working through that

978
00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:20,440
and scratching off the ones that we've seen. So he

979
00:56:20,599 --> 00:56:25,440
hosted the podcast with somebody named Rachel Stavis, who identifies

980
00:56:25,480 --> 00:56:30,079
herself as a non denominational exorcist, and she came up

981
00:56:30,159 --> 00:56:35,440
with a book that described her work and sidebar one

982
00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:40,360
of the sweetest, nicest, most compassionate human beings I've ever met.

983
00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:44,000
In the conversations that I have been able to have

984
00:56:44,079 --> 00:56:47,599
with her, I can't say you've person yeah oh wow. Yeah,

985
00:56:47,679 --> 00:56:51,880
So I can't say enough good things about her just

986
00:56:51,920 --> 00:56:55,280
as a human being and the way that she really

987
00:56:55,320 --> 00:56:56,760
cares for people as well.

988
00:56:57,000 --> 00:57:03,639
Speaker 1: So let me just understand this. Sure, because you're a

989
00:57:03,639 --> 00:57:09,519
fan of wrestling, because I'm you got interests in a

990
00:57:09,519 --> 00:57:12,760
little bit of the paranorm just sort of a curiosity.

991
00:57:13,079 --> 00:57:13,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, isn't it.

992
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:16,719
Speaker 1: Isn't that cool? I know, I'm telling you, like, isn't

993
00:57:16,719 --> 00:57:19,800
that a cool thing? Like Chris Jericho had this person on.

994
00:57:19,880 --> 00:57:23,119
You're a fan, you met, right, was wrestling him the

995
00:57:23,199 --> 00:57:26,280
band Fozzy. He gets a podcast, you enjoy it. He

996
00:57:26,320 --> 00:57:29,239
has this person on and it piques your curiosity. And

997
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:31,840
you're a smart, curious person, so why not?

998
00:57:32,119 --> 00:57:34,840
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, And and even before that, I was I

999
00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:38,360
was really interested in just scary movies and yeah, I've

1000
00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:41,360
seen The Exorcist and and all of those. I can't

1001
00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:42,639
see that. That's scared.

1002
00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:46,239
Speaker 1: I never got into scary movies at all.

1003
00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:48,440
Speaker 2: I'll plug one for you. I'll say Late Night with

1004
00:57:48,519 --> 00:57:50,079
the Devil is one of the best ones that I've

1005
00:57:50,119 --> 00:57:52,840
seen recently. Really, so if you're if you want to

1006
00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:55,960
go down that path, and yeah, it was. I thought

1007
00:57:55,960 --> 00:58:00,920
it was really really well done. But you're right. So,

1008
00:58:01,480 --> 00:58:05,039
because I was a fan, I encounter rachel Or. I

1009
00:58:05,119 --> 00:58:09,159
listened to her and she is describing all of these

1010
00:58:09,199 --> 00:58:12,400
attachments that people can have because her story is that

1011
00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:14,880
she was born with an ability she's able to see

1012
00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:18,480
them with her own two eyes, and like many healers,

1013
00:58:18,519 --> 00:58:23,239
she was told, no, this isn't something you talk about.

1014
00:58:23,320 --> 00:58:27,480
You're crazy, This isn't really happening, this is control, this

1015
00:58:27,519 --> 00:58:31,119
is nonsense. So she pushed it away until she couldn't anymore.

1016
00:58:31,239 --> 00:58:36,519
And she makes her living as a writer. She wrote

1017
00:58:36,519 --> 00:58:39,800
the backstory for tomb Raider, which is really cool, and

1018
00:58:40,559 --> 00:58:42,679
tomb Raider just made it into a couple of years

1019
00:58:42,679 --> 00:58:46,400
ago the Museum of Play that we have here in Rochester,

1020
00:58:46,480 --> 00:58:51,119
which is also very cool. So she described all of

1021
00:58:51,159 --> 00:58:54,039
these entities that people can have in the effects that

1022
00:58:54,079 --> 00:58:57,800
they have. So I listen to that. I get her book.

1023
00:58:58,960 --> 00:59:01,800
I read her book, and I'm thinking to myself, if

1024
00:59:01,880 --> 00:59:05,840
there is some truth to this, then there has got

1025
00:59:05,880 --> 00:59:09,159
to be some really great therapeutic effects that happen for people,

1026
00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:14,239
and she's talking about that in her book. So for me,

1027
00:59:14,719 --> 00:59:16,960
I'm curious if there is a way for some as

1028
00:59:17,000 --> 00:59:20,320
a healthcare provider of somebody who wants to help people,

1029
00:59:21,360 --> 00:59:24,800
is there a way that I can understand this a

1030
00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:26,960
little bit more if this is actually a real phenomena.

1031
00:59:29,079 --> 00:59:31,960
I gave you some audio from Rachel and this is

1032
00:59:31,960 --> 00:59:35,840
from the Maximum Zach podcast where she's talking about some

1033
00:59:35,880 --> 00:59:38,440
of these entities, which is also in her book Sister

1034
00:59:38,480 --> 00:59:39,039
of Darkness.

1035
00:59:40,079 --> 00:59:43,199
Speaker 8: But yeah, so if you want to hear all of them,

1036
00:59:43,400 --> 00:59:46,519
like the most common ones, I should say begin at

1037
00:59:46,559 --> 00:59:49,760
like the smallest, which is what I call a clive.

1038
00:59:50,440 --> 00:59:53,679
It's really scientific. It looks like a climb Barker drawing

1039
00:59:53,719 --> 00:59:59,440
to me, super scientific. That's the you that yourself yes, y,

1040
01:00:01,840 --> 01:00:04,679
I mean because I okay, So I obviously wrote a

1041
01:00:04,679 --> 01:00:07,360
book about this, but I didn't have a book about this,

1042
01:00:08,119 --> 01:00:10,239
so that's kind of where it all came from. So

1043
01:00:10,320 --> 01:00:12,639
I started kind of writing down what I saw when

1044
01:00:12,800 --> 01:00:15,119
when people came, you know, especially if I saw the

1045
01:00:15,119 --> 01:00:18,639
same type over and over again. So clives are very common.

1046
01:00:19,519 --> 01:00:22,679
They're amplifiers. So if you're sad, you're depressed, you know,

1047
01:00:22,760 --> 01:00:26,199
if you're angry, rage, it kind of does that. But

1048
01:00:26,239 --> 01:00:29,119
it's actually very very small, like kind of the leech

1049
01:00:29,199 --> 01:00:32,719
of the community, if you will, and the least malevolent,

1050
01:00:32,760 --> 01:00:35,480
and people pick that up all the time, don't even

1051
01:00:35,519 --> 01:00:38,079
know they're carrying it. That's what most of the population has.

1052
01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:41,199
And I feel like you can tell when someone has one,

1053
01:00:41,239 --> 01:00:43,199
even if you're not me, because you're like, you know,

1054
01:00:43,280 --> 01:00:46,360
that's the person who's walking in and you're like, oh god, yeah,

1055
01:00:47,360 --> 01:00:52,360
what is happening that? Yeah, they're like everyone's like, I'm tense,

1056
01:00:52,440 --> 01:00:55,320
like I don't want to deal with this person. And

1057
01:00:55,400 --> 01:00:58,920
so people they pick them up and they actually remove

1058
01:00:58,960 --> 01:01:02,199
them themselves by just working on themselves and you know,

1059
01:01:02,679 --> 01:01:08,039
getting better all the time. And then it goes to rates,

1060
01:01:08,159 --> 01:01:12,360
which are the entities that attach unfortunately through sexual trauma,

1061
01:01:12,840 --> 01:01:15,639
you know, being exposed to things too early, and unfortunately

1062
01:01:15,679 --> 01:01:19,679
that is very common. And then it goes to tricksters

1063
01:01:19,719 --> 01:01:23,559
are the next common one, which is exactly what it

1064
01:01:23,599 --> 01:01:27,519
sounds like. It will show itself. It'll form a symbiotic

1065
01:01:27,559 --> 01:01:30,320
relationship with the hosts, so it'll show itself as something

1066
01:01:30,320 --> 01:01:34,679
you want. So I see in people with imaginary friends

1067
01:01:34,719 --> 01:01:38,840
who are like fifty five arc angels attached to them,

1068
01:01:39,079 --> 01:01:41,960
like the loved ones. Unfortunately they think that are around

1069
01:01:42,000 --> 01:01:45,519
and aren't that So yeah, you know, it's kind of whatever.

1070
01:01:45,639 --> 01:01:47,480
And then we go all the way up to like

1071
01:01:47,559 --> 01:01:50,480
realm walker, which is that movie style entity, which is

1072
01:01:50,599 --> 01:01:53,760
the scariest of you all thought of all of them.

1073
01:01:54,280 --> 01:01:58,639
Speaker 1: Okay, so she's saying there's entities, let's go to the

1074
01:01:58,719 --> 01:02:02,239
leech one that she called sure only because I think

1075
01:02:02,360 --> 01:02:07,960
everybody's encountered that person who always right? But is it

1076
01:02:08,440 --> 01:02:13,880
would it be if there's these and their entities or energy?

1077
01:02:14,519 --> 01:02:15,159
Would you say?

1078
01:02:15,599 --> 01:02:17,920
Speaker 2: I think you can call them either. Okay, you can

1079
01:02:17,960 --> 01:02:19,719
call them either. So it's like energy.

1080
01:02:20,199 --> 01:02:22,159
Speaker 1: Let's just call it like an energy pocket that all

1081
01:02:22,199 --> 01:02:24,360
of a sudden you attract it in some way and

1082
01:02:24,400 --> 01:02:28,880
when you're down on that frequency, it comes along and

1083
01:02:28,920 --> 01:02:31,840
it kind of holds you in that frequency and then

1084
01:02:31,960 --> 01:02:35,559
does that thing that I'll say, like climbing the emotional scale,

1085
01:02:36,159 --> 01:02:38,559
that anger is better than despair.

1086
01:02:39,039 --> 01:02:40,800
Speaker 2: Right, then we could kind.

1087
01:02:40,599 --> 01:02:43,400
Speaker 1: Of go up, up up, Does that help almost slough

1088
01:02:43,440 --> 01:02:43,840
it off.

1089
01:02:44,800 --> 01:02:48,159
Speaker 2: What she talks about is in terms of the quote

1090
01:02:48,239 --> 01:02:50,480
unquote Clive is that she says that most people are

1091
01:02:50,519 --> 01:02:53,480
walking around have something like that, yest and in the West,

1092
01:02:53,519 --> 01:02:57,840
because we don't, we haven't invested a ton into spiritual

1093
01:02:57,880 --> 01:03:01,280
practices to cleanse ourselves to that for the average person

1094
01:03:01,320 --> 01:03:05,079
walking down the street. And she talks about it being

1095
01:03:05,360 --> 01:03:10,679
an amplifier as well, so in her book and if

1096
01:03:10,679 --> 01:03:13,239
you listen to her on other podcasts, she talks about

1097
01:03:13,280 --> 01:03:16,760
how you can gradually shed yourself of that if you

1098
01:03:16,880 --> 01:03:20,159
are if you engage with what she calls connecting with

1099
01:03:20,519 --> 01:03:25,119
source or spirit yep, and you do it that kind

1100
01:03:25,159 --> 01:03:27,960
of a practice and ask for higher energies to enter

1101
01:03:28,000 --> 01:03:32,159
your body and remove whatever maybe on you that's negative.

1102
01:03:32,320 --> 01:03:36,360
And then after thirty forty five days, something as small

1103
01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:39,840
as that would then just go away, just go away.

1104
01:03:40,400 --> 01:03:43,719
Speaker 1: And then there's she talked to, like all of these

1105
01:03:43,760 --> 01:03:47,880
different levels, like ah, most like that Clive graduates and

1106
01:03:47,880 --> 01:03:50,519
becomes something else right now, just to give an example,

1107
01:03:50,519 --> 01:03:56,119
but all these where where would does.

1108
01:03:55,960 --> 01:03:56,840
Speaker 2: It come from? Here?

1109
01:03:56,880 --> 01:04:01,760
Speaker 1: Here's my thinking is like if everything from source comes

1110
01:04:01,800 --> 01:04:07,760
from from one thing love. Then the very simple philosophical

1111
01:04:07,760 --> 01:04:12,320
premise would be that anything that is considered bad or

1112
01:04:12,360 --> 01:04:15,480
evil is a privation of good and there had to

1113
01:04:15,519 --> 01:04:18,119
be some good in it at some point.

1114
01:04:19,079 --> 01:04:23,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's fair. What she talks about in

1115
01:04:23,679 --> 01:04:26,960
her book is she says that everything that is either

1116
01:04:27,000 --> 01:04:29,719
good or bad comes from source. Yeah, which is this

1117
01:04:29,920 --> 01:04:34,679
idea that was reflected in Zoroastrianism, if which is one

1118
01:04:34,679 --> 01:04:39,400
of the oldest religions ever were just just describes I

1119
01:04:39,440 --> 01:04:42,519
don't think I've ever even heard of that describes how

1120
01:04:42,559 --> 01:04:44,519
you have to have polarity in existence.

1121
01:04:44,559 --> 01:04:48,599
Speaker 1: So yeah, sure, right, well I would call it even contrast,

1122
01:04:48,800 --> 01:04:52,000
I don't want this that's bad, I want this that's

1123
01:04:52,039 --> 01:04:53,920
good exactly.

1124
01:04:54,119 --> 01:04:59,159
Speaker 2: So she thinks that everything is coming from this one source,

1125
01:04:59,599 --> 01:05:02,360
and she and have an understanding of why there is

1126
01:05:02,400 --> 01:05:05,760
that dual creation that happens.

1127
01:05:06,239 --> 01:05:08,400
Speaker 1: Would it be that the energy kind of has its

1128
01:05:08,440 --> 01:05:11,760
own I mean, there are many people that would say

1129
01:05:11,800 --> 01:05:14,880
that you are of source, So you yourself have all

1130
01:05:15,000 --> 01:05:19,519
the powers that you could create mountains if you want it,

1131
01:05:19,599 --> 01:05:22,599
if you tapped into the right frequency. Could it also

1132
01:05:22,679 --> 01:05:23,159
be you.

1133
01:05:23,079 --> 01:05:29,639
Speaker 2: Could I don't know, make these Perhaps there there is

1134
01:05:31,320 --> 01:05:33,960
there's a practice in Buddhism where you put a lot

1135
01:05:34,000 --> 01:05:38,360
of thought and energy into a particular the formation of

1136
01:05:38,400 --> 01:05:42,000
a particular thing. So for let's just use an example,

1137
01:05:42,079 --> 01:05:44,280
if I really wanted a glass of water in front

1138
01:05:44,280 --> 01:05:47,079
of me, I would concentrate all this cognitive energy that

1139
01:05:47,079 --> 01:05:52,119
I have, and supposedly in another dimension that is on

1140
01:05:52,159 --> 01:05:55,400
our plane, that this thing would actually exist, and then

1141
01:05:55,400 --> 01:05:57,760
it would take on a life of its own after that.

1142
01:05:58,920 --> 01:06:03,280
So eskeeping the the name of what that is.

1143
01:06:03,480 --> 01:06:05,400
Speaker 1: And that's a Buddhism.

1144
01:06:05,760 --> 01:06:09,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's there's something related to that within Buddhism. But

1145
01:06:09,480 --> 01:06:12,000
then the name of that is escape. Okay, right now,

1146
01:06:12,199 --> 01:06:15,679
that's interesting. Yeah, I I I don't know.

1147
01:06:15,840 --> 01:06:22,800
Speaker 1: I I often look around and I think that what

1148
01:06:22,920 --> 01:06:25,599
is what is really happening here?

1149
01:06:25,719 --> 01:06:25,960
Speaker 2: You know?

1150
01:06:26,599 --> 01:06:30,559
Speaker 1: I think I saw something the other day that the

1151
01:06:30,599 --> 01:06:34,199
Moon is older than the Earth, and that the moon

1152
01:06:34,440 --> 01:06:37,360
was actually a moon in another galaxy and it moved

1153
01:06:37,400 --> 01:06:40,920
itself here to be with Earth, and I go.

1154
01:06:43,159 --> 01:06:45,800
Speaker 2: This sounds crazy. But then I thought, I.

1155
01:06:45,679 --> 01:06:48,760
Speaker 1: Don't know, man, I've been blown away by the eclipse

1156
01:06:48,840 --> 01:06:53,119
only because it all happened without us doing anything, and

1157
01:06:53,159 --> 01:06:55,639
that's sort of the purpose. Like I think most people

1158
01:06:55,639 --> 01:06:58,039
are going to the eclipse was cloudy. I couldn't see. Yeah,

1159
01:06:58,119 --> 01:07:03,679
but all of this happened without us. We're not I

1160
01:07:03,679 --> 01:07:06,719
don't get up in the morning and you know, pull

1161
01:07:06,760 --> 01:07:08,400
the planet to make sure it's still.

1162
01:07:08,639 --> 01:07:09,639
Speaker 2: Spinning in its orbit.

1163
01:07:10,039 --> 01:07:12,119
Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying or tilting on the taxis

1164
01:07:12,440 --> 01:07:16,159
there's something much greater than us, and we are.

1165
01:07:17,519 --> 01:07:20,760
Speaker 2: Of that. We are of that. I would yea one

1166
01:07:20,800 --> 01:07:24,880
hundred percent agree. The word I was looking for is tulpa. Tulpa.

1167
01:07:25,000 --> 01:07:28,159
Creation was that that idea that you could create something

1168
01:07:28,199 --> 01:07:30,079
in another dimension, put all this energy, and then it

1169
01:07:30,079 --> 01:07:32,719
would start to have take on its own life and

1170
01:07:32,760 --> 01:07:34,880
effect the physical world around us.

1171
01:07:34,960 --> 01:07:38,400
Speaker 1: And then what we say is if that all of

1172
01:07:38,440 --> 01:07:41,199
a sudden, let's say, somebody just came in and said, hey, man,

1173
01:07:41,239 --> 01:07:44,360
are you thirsty? And gave you that, we would say,

1174
01:07:44,559 --> 01:07:48,639
at least here I manifested that, which has become somewhat

1175
01:07:48,679 --> 01:07:53,599
of a buzz term. But I would think that most

1176
01:07:53,639 --> 01:07:59,760
of our reality is a mirror of our thoughts, and

1177
01:08:00,079 --> 01:08:04,639
life is sort of lived in our head. Yeah, I

1178
01:08:04,800 --> 01:08:07,239
or am I I think? I mean, yeah, I think

1179
01:08:07,280 --> 01:08:10,639
your perception of the way I kind of see it sometimes,

1180
01:08:10,679 --> 01:08:13,599
you know, think about and I'll even say it's momentum.

1181
01:08:13,679 --> 01:08:15,159
You get up in the morning and you stub your

1182
01:08:15,159 --> 01:08:17,800
toe and then you spill your coffee and now you're

1183
01:08:17,840 --> 01:08:21,319
pissed off and you're running late and you got you know,

1184
01:08:21,560 --> 01:08:23,720
just stain on you and you're all mad, and then

1185
01:08:23,760 --> 01:08:25,359
you rear end somebody.

1186
01:08:25,239 --> 01:08:27,079
Speaker 2: Right, you know what I mean. And it's like this momentum.

1187
01:08:27,119 --> 01:08:29,359
Speaker 1: But it's like you brought that all on and if

1188
01:08:29,399 --> 01:08:31,479
you stopped in a minute and went home on what

1189
01:08:31,600 --> 01:08:32,359
am I doing here?

1190
01:08:33,359 --> 01:08:35,520
Speaker 2: I think you can change it? Yeah, I think you

1191
01:08:35,600 --> 01:08:38,119
can too. I absolutely think you can. It's just just

1192
01:08:38,159 --> 01:08:40,479
trying to tap into that other frequency that you were

1193
01:08:40,520 --> 01:08:41,159
talking about.

1194
01:08:41,960 --> 01:08:45,119
Speaker 1: But let's but what happens with like the attachments then

1195
01:08:45,159 --> 01:08:48,479
do I lose that control or do they become in control?

1196
01:08:48,640 --> 01:08:51,439
Speaker 2: Like what she's saying. I think I think she would

1197
01:08:51,520 --> 01:08:56,039
say that it's harder, harder to have that better feeling

1198
01:08:56,119 --> 01:08:59,399
thought or let's yeah, to pursue that better feeling thought.

1199
01:08:59,760 --> 01:09:03,239
It's just like imagine having like a weight, wearing a weight.

1200
01:09:03,159 --> 01:09:07,920
Speaker 1: Vest Okay, yeah, yep, So then how how do we

1201
01:09:09,680 --> 01:09:11,359
shed that or do we need help doing that?

1202
01:09:11,439 --> 01:09:14,359
Speaker 2: How do we so? There? There? What would she say?

1203
01:09:14,640 --> 01:09:16,880
She would say that you can. There are ways that

1204
01:09:16,880 --> 01:09:21,920
you can raise your frequency, from meditation to the things

1205
01:09:21,920 --> 01:09:25,479
you can do yourself. Things you can do yourself meditation

1206
01:09:26,319 --> 01:09:32,479
she describes singing, and also really there are different Yeah,

1207
01:09:32,520 --> 01:09:37,000
there are different also like blends. You can have an

1208
01:09:37,000 --> 01:09:41,960
incense and be around because those are supposedly higher frequencies

1209
01:09:42,000 --> 01:09:45,520
like frankinsense and murr, things like things of that nature.

1210
01:09:46,720 --> 01:09:50,600
Speaker 1: Interesting, Yeah, so when we yeah, well the franken sense

1211
01:09:50,640 --> 01:09:54,920
and murr have very religious overtones, and we're supposedly the

1212
01:09:54,920 --> 01:09:58,560
gifts that the wise men brought when Jesus was born.

1213
01:09:59,560 --> 01:10:03,800
So which is another concept. And I, as I get older,

1214
01:10:03,840 --> 01:10:11,000
I feel like we have ruined or I should say misinterpreted,

1215
01:10:11,319 --> 01:10:15,319
may be misinterpreted, I don't know, maybe misinterpreted what his

1216
01:10:15,880 --> 01:10:17,600
purpose was and what he was trying to tell you

1217
01:10:18,039 --> 01:10:21,479
and tell us or tell us as humans. But the

1218
01:10:21,560 --> 01:10:25,520
idea of the attachment that I think that would scare people.

1219
01:10:25,960 --> 01:10:34,880
But let's say, you know, if what I said earlier

1220
01:10:35,119 --> 01:10:39,279
was you choose to come here, and you make some

1221
01:10:40,079 --> 01:10:43,479
deal with source, and I am starting to believe that

1222
01:10:43,520 --> 01:10:47,800
there's even an exit point that you've agreed upon already

1223
01:10:47,840 --> 01:10:49,960
before you came here. The journey is going to go

1224
01:10:50,039 --> 01:10:59,039
like this that sometimes when something tragic happens. Uh, but

1225
01:10:59,640 --> 01:11:03,479
do we we don't remember the contract. This sounds so muddled,

1226
01:11:04,520 --> 01:11:08,279
forgive me, but I'll say, like Kobe Bryant, yeah, right

1227
01:11:08,479 --> 01:11:11,840
in his prime of after basketball life. I'm not saying

1228
01:11:11,880 --> 01:11:15,199
prime athlete, but after basketball life, still taking that same

1229
01:11:15,560 --> 01:11:18,399
energy that he brought to basketball and bringing it now

1230
01:11:18,479 --> 01:11:22,479
to production, winning an Oscar for a short film I think,

1231
01:11:22,680 --> 01:11:26,159
for his production company, writing books, doing some other things

1232
01:11:26,720 --> 01:11:30,920
really positive and telling you sort of how to do it.

1233
01:11:31,039 --> 01:11:32,880
I'm not so sure that you have to grind as

1234
01:11:32,920 --> 01:11:35,359
hard as he did, but it sure helps you think

1235
01:11:35,600 --> 01:11:38,560
better because I did this. So therefore I feel like

1236
01:11:38,640 --> 01:11:41,199
I can now and once you can. I mean, I

1237
01:11:41,199 --> 01:11:44,359
think the greatest example of mind over matter is the

1238
01:11:44,399 --> 01:11:45,159
four minute mile.

1239
01:11:45,359 --> 01:11:47,520
Speaker 2: Nobody did it. It was the elusive thing.

1240
01:11:47,640 --> 01:11:50,119
Speaker 1: Roger Banister does it, and about two weeks later you

1241
01:11:50,239 --> 01:11:53,079
got thirty guys who broke the four minute mile. Look

1242
01:11:53,119 --> 01:11:55,840
at that and tell me that your mind doesn't control things.

1243
01:11:55,880 --> 01:11:56,720
Speaker 2: It absolutely does.

1244
01:11:57,199 --> 01:12:02,640
Speaker 1: But when Kobe dies suddenly in a helicopter accident, along

1245
01:12:02,680 --> 01:12:07,159
with there's several other people, do you think that at

1246
01:12:07,159 --> 01:12:09,640
some point even your soul or your spirit or whatever

1247
01:12:09,720 --> 01:12:13,039
doesn't know you're you're dead because it happened so quickly

1248
01:12:13,119 --> 01:12:16,119
that you that that then you stick around in some

1249
01:12:16,199 --> 01:12:19,439
way because I've gone ghosts. I know it's not silly,

1250
01:12:19,439 --> 01:12:22,720
but we'll call it paranormal. And you see the orbs

1251
01:12:22,720 --> 01:12:25,359
and things and it's there, man, my hair was standing

1252
01:12:25,439 --> 01:12:28,159
up on every part of my body.

1253
01:12:28,920 --> 01:12:33,880
Speaker 2: That I'll go back and I'll comment about the well

1254
01:12:33,920 --> 01:12:36,039
you talked about, like, hey, there's a there's an endpoint,

1255
01:12:36,079 --> 01:12:38,960
and then we'll go on and talk about that idea

1256
01:12:39,000 --> 01:12:42,880
of maybe somebody's existing beyond that. So if you look

1257
01:12:43,039 --> 01:12:47,560
at Raymond Raymond Moody's work, which who I mentioned last

1258
01:12:47,600 --> 01:12:51,239
time we were chatting, and you look at Brian Weiss

1259
01:12:51,279 --> 01:12:57,439
as well, with Life Between Lives, there's this idea when

1260
01:12:57,479 --> 01:13:00,520
you're in a hypnotic state, you can regress between. You

1261
01:13:00,560 --> 01:13:02,720
can go back, you can explore your past lives, but

1262
01:13:02,760 --> 01:13:04,600
you can also go to the state where you were

1263
01:13:04,600 --> 01:13:08,680
planning your life with other beings. That's fascinating. Yeah, he's

1264
01:13:08,720 --> 01:13:10,840
got some I think his book is called Life Between

1265
01:13:10,840 --> 01:13:13,600
Lives where he talks about that and you agree on

1266
01:13:13,640 --> 01:13:16,600
everything that you are going to accomplish or try to

1267
01:13:16,640 --> 01:13:19,520
accomplish in this lifetime. And then when you when it's

1268
01:13:19,640 --> 01:13:21,760
your numbers called and it's your time to go, you

1269
01:13:21,840 --> 01:13:24,520
go and have the review of hey, what didn't Scott?

1270
01:13:24,560 --> 01:13:26,359
What did you do this lifetime? Oh? You got this?

1271
01:13:26,479 --> 01:13:27,920
You got this? You know you didn't get this one.

1272
01:13:27,960 --> 01:13:30,079
Maybe we'll try that on the next one. And you

1273
01:13:30,119 --> 01:13:35,359
go through a life review with these just benevolent beings supposedly. Wow.

1274
01:13:35,960 --> 01:13:39,239
So that that idea and that that idea of contracts

1275
01:13:39,279 --> 01:13:41,000
of like, hey, you signed up for it, We've got

1276
01:13:41,000 --> 01:13:47,439
to enforce it. It's something that resonates with me. But going

1277
01:13:47,439 --> 01:13:52,000
down the path here with Rachel Stavis, so I read

1278
01:13:52,000 --> 01:13:54,199
her book and I'm thinking to myself, is there a

1279
01:13:54,239 --> 01:13:57,600
way that other? Is there a way to do this

1280
01:13:58,640 --> 01:14:01,680
with the training that I have already had, or are

1281
01:14:01,720 --> 01:14:03,720
there other people out there who know how to do

1282
01:14:03,800 --> 01:14:07,560
this that don't have any of these other abilities? And

1283
01:14:07,680 --> 01:14:12,680
I encountered a book by Edith Fiora and Edith Fiora

1284
01:14:13,279 --> 01:14:16,920
with somebody who's using hypnotism to work with clients, and

1285
01:14:17,119 --> 01:14:21,720
she would also encounter some attachments as well. And I

1286
01:14:21,880 --> 01:14:22,640
sent you some audio.

1287
01:14:22,840 --> 01:14:25,159
Speaker 4: I just say this, first of all, I'm talking about

1288
01:14:25,199 --> 01:14:28,000
a person who has lived and died. I'm not talking

1289
01:14:28,039 --> 01:14:31,680
about some kind of entity that is of a different dimension,

1290
01:14:31,920 --> 01:14:36,279
for instance, a demonic or satanic entity. I'm not involved

1291
01:14:36,279 --> 01:14:38,159
with that at all. There's no way that I can

1292
01:14:38,199 --> 01:14:40,479
deal with that or can help someone with that problem.

1293
01:14:40,760 --> 01:14:44,399
So these are people like a grandparent or a stranger,

1294
01:14:44,479 --> 01:14:48,159
somebody who has lived and died, just regular folk, and

1295
01:14:48,279 --> 01:14:51,520
for some reason, their personality or in some way their

1296
01:14:51,560 --> 01:14:55,079
personality continues exactly as they were at the moment of

1297
01:14:55,119 --> 01:14:58,000
their death as long as the earth bound. The usual

1298
01:14:58,039 --> 01:15:00,000
progression is for them, of course to go into the life,

1299
01:15:00,119 --> 01:15:02,319
and we can talk about that if you wish, but

1300
01:15:02,680 --> 01:15:05,079
they don't do this. They stay earth bound for a

1301
01:15:05,159 --> 01:15:10,600
multitude of reasons, and they hover around very much as

1302
01:15:10,640 --> 01:15:13,399
they were, exactly as they were before, but lacking the

1303
01:15:13,439 --> 01:15:14,279
physical body.

1304
01:15:16,920 --> 01:15:24,800
Speaker 1: Okay, I find this really really fascinating and interesting because

1305
01:15:25,319 --> 01:15:27,840
how many times do we have people say.

1306
01:15:30,199 --> 01:15:32,640
Speaker 2: Or not let me rephrase that.

1307
01:15:32,720 --> 01:15:35,720
Speaker 1: I have heard people say that they can walk down

1308
01:15:35,760 --> 01:15:39,279
a grocery aisle and see who is with the other person,

1309
01:15:39,720 --> 01:15:43,039
and the idea that you're never really alone here, that

1310
01:15:43,159 --> 01:15:46,479
you have guides and you have people that are trying

1311
01:15:46,479 --> 01:15:48,640
to whisper in your ear, so to speak. Come over here,

1312
01:15:48,680 --> 01:15:49,680
come over here, you know.

1313
01:15:49,920 --> 01:15:54,600
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, she describes it not as something that's helpful,

1314
01:15:54,760 --> 01:15:58,600
and that's something that is harmful. If you've got somebody

1315
01:15:58,600 --> 01:16:01,119
who passed away and then they're hanging out with you,

1316
01:16:01,479 --> 01:16:04,880
she would say that they're bringing whatever symptoms they had

1317
01:16:04,920 --> 01:16:10,039
in their life to you by sticking with you. And

1318
01:16:10,159 --> 01:16:14,600
so she would get people into a hypnotic situation and

1319
01:16:14,920 --> 01:16:18,039
just start having conversations with these other attachments who are there,

1320
01:16:18,880 --> 01:16:22,800
and then she would call in other beings to help

1321
01:16:22,920 --> 01:16:25,319
remove them, and then they would go. And some of

1322
01:16:25,319 --> 01:16:28,920
the case studies in her book The Unquiet Dead suggests

1323
01:16:28,960 --> 01:16:32,119
that people are having some really great therapeutic effects from it.

1324
01:16:32,199 --> 01:16:36,600
And we'll say, quote unquote reconnecting with themselves and feeling

1325
01:16:36,680 --> 01:16:39,000
just much better, like this a weight had been lifted

1326
01:16:39,079 --> 01:16:39,600
off of them.

1327
01:16:40,520 --> 01:16:41,079
Speaker 1: Wow.

1328
01:16:41,199 --> 01:16:44,159
Speaker 2: Yeah. We use the analogy of the weight vest West

1329
01:16:44,239 --> 01:16:48,399
for weight vest for Rachel, but it's also another a

1330
01:16:48,479 --> 01:16:51,560
similar phenomena that she describes.

1331
01:16:51,800 --> 01:16:55,000
Speaker 1: So she's saying, basically, some people stick around and don't

1332
01:16:55,000 --> 01:16:58,479
realize that they're dead. Would that be a very layman's

1333
01:16:58,520 --> 01:16:59,560
way of saying what she said?

1334
01:16:59,680 --> 01:17:02,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, that would be a very layman's way to say that.

1335
01:17:02,640 --> 01:17:06,039
And she's got in her book a list of signs

1336
01:17:06,039 --> 01:17:09,239
and symptoms that if you're feeling this way, then hey,

1337
01:17:09,279 --> 01:17:15,520
maybe you have this attachment. There's an African shaman whose

1338
01:17:15,600 --> 01:17:19,159
name is Malidomo Some who's written a bunch of books,

1339
01:17:19,439 --> 01:17:23,600
And there was a training I went to and the

1340
01:17:23,640 --> 01:17:27,359
leader had referenced in Malidomo Some and said that, no,

1341
01:17:27,439 --> 01:17:29,880
wonder why there's so much madness in the West, it's

1342
01:17:29,880 --> 01:17:32,239
because you have three or four everybody in this room

1343
01:17:32,279 --> 01:17:33,920
has three or four ghosts hanging off of you.

1344
01:17:35,000 --> 01:17:39,279
Speaker 1: Really, just people who don't because we don't tend to.

1345
01:17:39,239 --> 01:17:43,079
Speaker 2: The spirit because we're we're not tending to that aspect

1346
01:17:43,119 --> 01:17:47,119
of it. If if you read Edith's book, she talks

1347
01:17:47,159 --> 01:17:51,640
about people who are in hospital care and they pass away.

1348
01:17:51,680 --> 01:17:55,119
They're their end of the life, and they are subdued,

1349
01:17:55,199 --> 01:17:58,119
they're on really great pain meds, and they just they

1350
01:17:58,119 --> 01:18:00,159
don't know that they've died a lot of the time.

1351
01:18:01,399 --> 01:18:04,079
Really really, that's that's what she would say.

1352
01:18:04,479 --> 01:18:07,199
Speaker 1: So then they hang around, So they hang around, do

1353
01:18:07,239 --> 01:18:10,920
they need to attach to something then to have Yeah,

1354
01:18:11,720 --> 01:18:14,600
you're not in human form, but you have human.

1355
01:18:15,840 --> 01:18:20,920
Speaker 2: Mind. And spirit. You still apparently have your own consciousness

1356
01:18:20,960 --> 01:18:24,119
that you had when you were alive. But she would

1357
01:18:24,119 --> 01:18:27,520
say that they would have to attach or jump into

1358
01:18:27,560 --> 01:18:31,279
somebody's energy field and able to stay with that person.

1359
01:18:32,600 --> 01:18:38,119
And she talks about older relatives to grandparents who see

1360
01:18:38,119 --> 01:18:41,800
that their children or grandchildren are upset, so instead of

1361
01:18:42,000 --> 01:18:44,079
going on to wherever they're supposed to go after that,

1362
01:18:44,199 --> 01:18:46,800
they just decide that I'm going to hang out with

1363
01:18:46,800 --> 01:18:50,119
my grandchild for however long before it's her time to go,

1364
01:18:50,159 --> 01:18:53,399
and then we'll go together. And Edith talks about how

1365
01:18:53,399 --> 01:18:56,039
that's a really negative thing because it's weighing people down

1366
01:18:56,199 --> 01:19:00,560
and if that grandparent had a disease, illness, whatever it

1367
01:19:00,600 --> 01:19:03,119
may be, then they could start manifesting in the person

1368
01:19:03,399 --> 01:19:04,720
who they are hanging out with.

1369
01:19:04,960 --> 01:19:07,840
Speaker 1: See, so this is where my head goes. Ready, we

1370
01:19:08,760 --> 01:19:11,479
talk about people on it and it does your family

1371
01:19:11,560 --> 01:19:13,279
have a history of name it?

1372
01:19:13,680 --> 01:19:13,920
Speaker 2: Right?

1373
01:19:15,560 --> 01:19:20,119
Speaker 1: Could be that everybody comes here and doesn't. Just because

1374
01:19:21,000 --> 01:19:23,439
grandpa had it doesn't mean you have. I have heart

1375
01:19:23,479 --> 01:19:27,439
disease runs in my family? Does it?

1376
01:19:27,479 --> 01:19:27,800
Speaker 2: Does it?

1377
01:19:28,239 --> 01:19:31,159
Speaker 1: I don't know. It almost sounds like do they hang

1378
01:19:31,199 --> 01:19:32,199
around and give it to you?

1379
01:19:33,000 --> 01:19:36,199
Speaker 2: It sounds like that doesn't it. It absolutely sounds.

1380
01:19:35,920 --> 01:19:39,319
Speaker 1: Like because if everything that we come from is pure positive, now,

1381
01:19:39,359 --> 01:19:42,439
look you're gonna croak, right, You're gonna leave this form.

1382
01:19:42,479 --> 01:19:48,119
But I so maybe that that's how it goes. But boy,

1383
01:19:48,520 --> 01:19:52,279
this is fascinating to me, like really really.

1384
01:19:52,239 --> 01:19:56,720
Speaker 2: Like I love it. Yeah, so I have to. I

1385
01:19:56,760 --> 01:19:59,359
want to read Edith's book now. I gotta get It's

1386
01:19:59,359 --> 01:20:02,479
a ya very quick read. I can give you a

1387
01:20:02,520 --> 01:20:04,239
copy of it. Well, I'm reading.

1388
01:20:04,760 --> 01:20:07,039
Speaker 1: I have so many but I'm behind and everything, and

1389
01:20:07,159 --> 01:20:09,279
I gotta get caught up here. But it would be

1390
01:20:09,399 --> 01:20:14,640
my twenty twenty five reading list. But it's fascinating that then,

1391
01:20:15,439 --> 01:20:18,880
and you can see where some days you just feel

1392
01:20:18,920 --> 01:20:22,800
like and maybe it is this other thing and shed

1393
01:20:22,840 --> 01:20:26,479
that off is Let's say, let's go with the idea

1394
01:20:26,560 --> 01:20:31,000
that this is true, okay, if we come from that

1395
01:20:31,079 --> 01:20:38,640
premise that there are things otherworldly. Now again, there are

1396
01:20:38,720 --> 01:20:42,119
those that believe our human form is two percent of

1397
01:20:42,159 --> 01:20:45,279
what we really are, or some low percentage.

1398
01:20:44,840 --> 01:20:45,680
Speaker 2: Of what we really are.

1399
01:20:47,000 --> 01:20:48,560
Speaker 1: I think it was doctor Deep said to me, isn't

1400
01:20:48,560 --> 01:20:51,680
it amazing how all this gets into two percent.

1401
01:20:51,439 --> 01:20:52,560
Speaker 2: Of what you really are?

1402
01:20:53,000 --> 01:20:55,560
Speaker 1: So you are greater and capable of more things, and

1403
01:20:55,600 --> 01:20:58,760
then if things then get it attached to you. Is

1404
01:20:58,800 --> 01:21:01,479
there a way for people well then to try to

1405
01:21:01,560 --> 01:21:04,439
get rid of it on their own, let's say almost

1406
01:21:04,479 --> 01:21:07,439
like I'll call it a home remedy. How do I

1407
01:21:07,880 --> 01:21:11,520
you know, how do I not get the flu? I

1408
01:21:11,600 --> 01:21:14,960
usually garlic and lemon and honey and cayenne pepper. That's

1409
01:21:15,000 --> 01:21:18,239
my thing every night. It's weird, but it works, or

1410
01:21:18,279 --> 01:21:20,039
at least I think it does. I believe it does,

1411
01:21:20,079 --> 01:21:20,920
so therefore it will.

1412
01:21:22,680 --> 01:21:26,680
Speaker 2: And again in her book she outlines at the end

1413
01:21:26,720 --> 01:21:29,359
of it, if there's a method, if you want to

1414
01:21:29,359 --> 01:21:32,239
try and go and release something like this by yourself,

1415
01:21:32,279 --> 01:21:35,439
where you just get into a really relaxed, comfortable state

1416
01:21:35,560 --> 01:21:38,680
and you talk to yourself, essentially saying like, hey, I

1417
01:21:39,239 --> 01:21:41,920
know that I'm not the only one here. I know

1418
01:21:42,079 --> 01:21:45,399
that I've been feeling this certain way. I know that

1419
01:21:45,479 --> 01:21:47,359
you see that you're not in your own body anymore,

1420
01:21:47,359 --> 01:21:49,399
and it's it's time for you to move on and

1421
01:21:49,439 --> 01:21:54,439
go elsewhere. And there are people who I have mentioned

1422
01:21:54,439 --> 01:22:01,079
that too, who report feeling better from doing that. Really yeah,

1423
01:22:01,119 --> 01:22:06,359
and I again, I have no it's a subjective experience.

1424
01:22:06,560 --> 01:22:10,039
So if it makes you feel better, then absolutely well.

1425
01:22:10,479 --> 01:22:13,920
Speaker 1: We live in such a see it, touch it, feel

1426
01:22:13,960 --> 01:22:18,039
it world right, and Western medicine is I give you

1427
01:22:18,079 --> 01:22:22,279
this pill and you will feel better. And I think

1428
01:22:23,319 --> 01:22:26,600
maybe there's a combination of of of the two. I

1429
01:22:26,640 --> 01:22:30,119
don't certainly go see the man and okay, but at

1430
01:22:30,159 --> 01:22:34,520
the same time, you can heal yourself. And they found

1431
01:22:34,800 --> 01:22:39,079
things with people who were going through cancer treatments, which

1432
01:22:39,159 --> 01:22:44,520
is really poison, that that when they laugh and they

1433
01:22:44,560 --> 01:22:47,560
focused on comedy, their healing was better and quicker and

1434
01:22:47,640 --> 01:22:52,960
all that, and which which, okay, who made? So what

1435
01:22:53,000 --> 01:22:55,199
are we doing here? What do we what are we

1436
01:22:55,239 --> 01:22:55,800
messing up?

1437
01:22:56,039 --> 01:22:57,600
Speaker 2: What are we messing up? What do we not know?

1438
01:22:58,039 --> 01:23:00,880
Speaker 1: And I have a funny feeling, And I don't know

1439
01:23:01,359 --> 01:23:03,399
if this is true, but I've been told by people

1440
01:23:03,720 --> 01:23:06,000
that a lot of information is going to come out

1441
01:23:06,840 --> 01:23:09,560
that is going to reveal a lot more about all

1442
01:23:09,640 --> 01:23:14,119
of this stuff that may make believers out of people,

1443
01:23:14,159 --> 01:23:16,399
and maybe things get better for everybody.

1444
01:23:16,439 --> 01:23:19,000
Speaker 2: I mean, I would love that. Yeah, that would be amazing,

1445
01:23:19,079 --> 01:23:24,600
It would be amazing. So I encountered Edith's book and

1446
01:23:24,720 --> 01:23:27,680
I was thinking to myself, are there are there any

1447
01:23:27,720 --> 01:23:34,119
other practitioners out there who've encountered this, and doctor Shakuntula Modi,

1448
01:23:34,319 --> 01:23:40,960
who is a psychiatrist also using hypnotism, encountered very similar

1449
01:23:41,039 --> 01:23:45,399
things to what Rachel described and what also Edith described,

1450
01:23:45,439 --> 01:23:50,680
and just in hypnosis having conversations with people and noticing

1451
01:23:50,760 --> 01:23:56,000
that changes in voice and different things in the room

1452
01:23:56,159 --> 01:23:59,119
changing like temperature of the room, things like that, and

1453
01:23:59,439 --> 01:24:04,439
encourage will say that these different personalities that are coming

1454
01:24:04,479 --> 01:24:08,119
up to that, hey, this isn't the best thing for

1455
01:24:08,239 --> 01:24:10,640
my patient, my client, that it'd be best if you

1456
01:24:11,399 --> 01:24:14,760
go elsewhere so that you can heal and my patient

1457
01:24:14,800 --> 01:24:18,760
can heal as well. And from there I'm thinking to myself,

1458
01:24:19,960 --> 01:24:26,520
is there really anything to this, because it sounds unbelievable. Yes, right,

1459
01:24:26,560 --> 01:24:29,880
it sounds unbelievable. And I go off and I try

1460
01:24:29,920 --> 01:24:33,479
to find a training and I do to see if

1461
01:24:33,880 --> 01:24:38,199
it is possible for a mental health professional to do this.

1462
01:24:38,560 --> 01:24:43,880
And during the training is run by a psychiatrist called

1463
01:24:45,000 --> 01:24:49,439
named Robert Alcorn, a psychiatrist forever in Ohio working in

1464
01:24:51,039 --> 01:24:55,560
the Ohio State Hospital systems, and his wife, Barbara Stone,

1465
01:24:55,600 --> 01:24:59,680
who is a clinical psychologist, and they've got this whole

1466
01:24:59,720 --> 01:25:02,159
proto call on how to release things, and throughout the

1467
01:25:02,319 --> 01:25:05,479
entire training. I'm sitting there and I'm like, there is

1468
01:25:05,720 --> 01:25:10,479
no way that this is going to do anything for

1469
01:25:10,520 --> 01:25:12,760
any of us, and I'm kind of upset that I've

1470
01:25:12,800 --> 01:25:18,159
spent money on it at this point. And as part

1471
01:25:18,199 --> 01:25:20,720
of it, we're working on each other and it was

1472
01:25:20,760 --> 01:25:25,039
my turn to be a receiver of things. And much

1473
01:25:25,279 --> 01:25:28,760
like when I went and had conversations with Rachel and

1474
01:25:28,920 --> 01:25:33,279
she worked her magic on me, as part of this trainings,

1475
01:25:33,720 --> 01:25:38,119
I felt amazing, really absolutely felt amazing. It was like

1476
01:25:38,359 --> 01:25:41,560
I dropped a bag of rocks that I had been

1477
01:25:41,600 --> 01:25:43,960
carrying with me for I don't even know how long,

1478
01:25:44,119 --> 01:25:47,760
like I was a kid in third grade on summer

1479
01:25:47,840 --> 01:25:54,199
vacation with no sight of it ending. I just felt wonderful. Yeah,

1480
01:25:54,439 --> 01:25:57,239
So at that point, I'm starting to think, all right,

1481
01:25:57,279 --> 01:25:59,760
maybe there maybe there is something to this, Maybe there's

1482
01:25:59,800 --> 01:26:02,680
something that we can you can glean from this and

1483
01:26:02,800 --> 01:26:07,239
use with other people. And since then, I've worked with

1484
01:26:07,640 --> 01:26:11,600
some other folks who have reported similar things. Again, I

1485
01:26:11,600 --> 01:26:14,359
still don't understand all of the mechanisms of why this

1486
01:26:15,319 --> 01:26:20,239
and oftentimes when people come to see me to have

1487
01:26:20,319 --> 01:26:24,479
that service provided, it's hard. It's still hard for me

1488
01:26:24,520 --> 01:26:28,960
to believe that something therapeutic is happening. But their subjective

1489
01:26:29,039 --> 01:26:33,199
responses again, the phenomenology of what they're experiencing, they just

1490
01:26:33,199 --> 01:26:36,840
sometimes they just look brighter. Look sure, they look happier

1491
01:26:37,279 --> 01:26:46,279
after that. And I'll tell you one story from when

1492
01:26:46,319 --> 01:26:49,760
I was I was asked to do this for somebody,

1493
01:26:49,840 --> 01:26:55,119
and I call on a Sunday and I was, you know,

1494
01:26:55,159 --> 01:26:57,560
with my family. I just excuse myself for a second,

1495
01:26:58,399 --> 01:27:01,600
and I got a referral from a psychologist who knows

1496
01:27:01,640 --> 01:27:03,960
that I have an interest in this or I have

1497
01:27:04,039 --> 01:27:05,760
some sort of training in it, and that I would

1498
01:27:05,760 --> 01:27:08,520
be able to at least evaluate to see if there's

1499
01:27:08,560 --> 01:27:14,399
something else going on with a person. Again, just wondering

1500
01:27:14,600 --> 01:27:18,319
what this person is experiencing from a mental health perspective.

1501
01:27:19,119 --> 01:27:22,479
So it says that I don't know what's going on

1502
01:27:22,560 --> 01:27:30,039
with I cannot classify this as something like a psychotic disorder,

1503
01:27:31,000 --> 01:27:34,079
and would you just have a conversation with the Sure,

1504
01:27:34,079 --> 01:27:37,640
I'll have a conversation. And I'm talking to this person

1505
01:27:38,720 --> 01:27:41,520
and I'm going to try to just use the day

1506
01:27:41,640 --> 01:27:46,880
pronouns because I'm trying to protect identities. So I call

1507
01:27:47,319 --> 01:27:52,600
this person and they say that I've experienced I was

1508
01:27:52,600 --> 01:27:55,880
in the hospital, and I've experienced what I thought was

1509
01:27:55,920 --> 01:27:59,720
a levitation experience where they felt a sensation of floating

1510
01:27:59,720 --> 01:28:06,199
above bud. And in psychiatry mental health, there's this thing

1511
01:28:06,239 --> 01:28:10,039
that can happen depersonalization and derealization, where you feel like

1512
01:28:10,079 --> 01:28:12,399
you're outside of your body and you're watching it. So

1513
01:28:12,399 --> 01:28:16,399
I'm like, okay, we can call that a traditional mental

1514
01:28:16,439 --> 01:28:23,239
health symptom. They are walking around their house and there

1515
01:28:23,279 --> 01:28:27,199
they're being afflicted by something and they are getting scratches

1516
01:28:27,199 --> 01:28:32,680
on their body and there is growling that is going

1517
01:28:32,720 --> 01:28:37,760
on in their house, and they have this has been

1518
01:28:37,800 --> 01:28:40,079
going on for a couple of weeks now and they're

1519
01:28:40,079 --> 01:28:45,079
not really sure why this has started or how, and

1520
01:28:45,119 --> 01:28:48,279
they've been working with a diocese and the Vatican was

1521
01:28:48,359 --> 01:28:52,840
trying to get approval for a traditional exorcism for this

1522
01:28:53,000 --> 01:28:57,439
to happen. So they had preests over to their house

1523
01:28:57,479 --> 01:28:59,600
to say Mass in the house and there would be

1524
01:28:59,680 --> 01:29:06,680
a lot of loud noises that happened in it, and yeah, yeah,

1525
01:29:07,159 --> 01:29:10,800
And I said to them, you know, this is probably

1526
01:29:10,800 --> 01:29:15,520
a little beyond my wheelhouse. And I want to I

1527
01:29:15,560 --> 01:29:18,000
want to be able to help, but let's see if

1528
01:29:18,039 --> 01:29:20,920
we can get Rachel involved, and at that point I

1529
01:29:21,000 --> 01:29:24,840
had had a number of conversations with Rachel and her assistant.

1530
01:29:25,199 --> 01:29:27,279
Not to say that I'm like buddy buddy with Rachel

1531
01:29:27,399 --> 01:29:33,119
or anything like that, but the Rachel's assistant knew who

1532
01:29:33,159 --> 01:29:35,159
I was at that point and her email there, and

1533
01:29:35,199 --> 01:29:38,039
I said, hey, this is what's going on. Is there

1534
01:29:38,079 --> 01:29:39,960
any way that Rachel would be able to see her

1535
01:29:40,000 --> 01:29:44,479
because this is way beyond my scope of what I

1536
01:29:44,520 --> 01:29:49,479
am prepared to deal with. And Rachel's assistant was able

1537
01:29:49,520 --> 01:29:53,359
to do very soon, but that first appointment that was

1538
01:29:53,640 --> 01:29:56,960
in form four months. So I said, let me come

1539
01:29:57,000 --> 01:30:00,920
down and see if there's anything I can do, and

1540
01:30:00,960 --> 01:30:04,439
we'll just give it a shot. And this person was

1541
01:30:04,560 --> 01:30:08,079
just a twenty something year old who is just super kind,

1542
01:30:08,279 --> 01:30:10,720
super nice. You would never know that anything was going

1543
01:30:10,760 --> 01:30:14,560
on if they hadn't reached out and called me. So

1544
01:30:14,640 --> 01:30:17,199
I do an assessment. I'm really curious to see if

1545
01:30:17,199 --> 01:30:21,279
there's anything like domestic violence going on or if there is,

1546
01:30:22,000 --> 01:30:29,560
what is the history of psychopathology that has and they

1547
01:30:31,079 --> 01:30:36,279
are sitting at a table with me and perfectly normal.

1548
01:30:36,880 --> 01:30:39,479
There are very few things that I can point out

1549
01:30:39,520 --> 01:30:41,560
there there is a trauma history, so we were talking

1550
01:30:41,560 --> 01:30:46,039
about frequency and energy earlier and maybe that was a

1551
01:30:46,079 --> 01:30:50,359
potential attraction. And as we were sitting there, there's this

1552
01:30:50,439 --> 01:30:55,119
thing that whizzed by my head that it's like you

1553
01:30:55,159 --> 01:30:57,800
ever get that sensation of a baseball going yes by

1554
01:30:57,920 --> 01:31:01,600
or yes yes? And I was just like I was

1555
01:31:01,640 --> 01:31:05,279
looking around and asked, did you feel that? Did you

1556
01:31:05,359 --> 01:31:08,359
notice that? Yeah? I noticed that, but that's a really

1557
01:31:08,399 --> 01:31:15,119
common occurrence to happen. So we went upstairs in a

1558
01:31:15,199 --> 01:31:18,000
room that was that had a lot of religious iconography

1559
01:31:18,039 --> 01:31:24,079
in it that I got to a hypnotic state and

1560
01:31:24,560 --> 01:31:26,680
just trying to see if I could have a conversation,

1561
01:31:26,840 --> 01:31:33,279
much like Edith would or doctor Shakuntala Modi would, just

1562
01:31:33,319 --> 01:31:35,800
to see if there's anything that comes up. And as

1563
01:31:35,840 --> 01:31:38,399
they were in that hypnotic state there and the upper

1564
01:31:38,439 --> 01:31:42,920
torso just kept rotating in a circular motion. And they

1565
01:31:42,960 --> 01:31:47,960
said that every time you try to have a conversation

1566
01:31:48,039 --> 01:31:50,760
with this, whatever this is, it just I can feel

1567
01:31:50,760 --> 01:31:55,000
it moving throughout my body. So at the end of

1568
01:31:55,039 --> 01:31:58,239
the day, what I felt like said was I feel

1569
01:31:58,239 --> 01:31:59,800
a lot lighter, I feel a lot better, but I

1570
01:32:00,159 --> 01:32:06,079
think this is resolved. And ended up seeing Rachel and

1571
01:32:06,239 --> 01:32:09,039
Rachel was able to do what Rachel does and for

1572
01:32:09,079 --> 01:32:10,840
a couple of days he felt a lot better, but

1573
01:32:12,039 --> 01:32:16,760
it ended up coming back unfortunately, And from there I

1574
01:32:16,760 --> 01:32:19,920
felt like focusing on Catholicism was going to be the

1575
01:32:19,960 --> 01:32:25,119
best approach looking forward. Yeah, it's it's it was.

1576
01:32:25,239 --> 01:32:30,520
Speaker 1: That is fascinating and scary, like it.

1577
01:32:30,520 --> 01:32:33,079
Speaker 2: Is a little bit, No, it is a little bit.

1578
01:32:33,159 --> 01:32:38,840
It is. It is fascinating to think about that idea,

1579
01:32:38,960 --> 01:32:44,279
to witness the behavior that I witnessed, to have an

1580
01:32:44,319 --> 01:32:49,479
experience where it really makes me question if we got

1581
01:32:49,520 --> 01:32:52,600
it all when we were doing our mental health training

1582
01:32:53,399 --> 01:32:57,039
and focusing on things that are just observable and only

1583
01:32:57,079 --> 01:33:04,560
reportable from what the client is experiencing. And honestly, I

1584
01:33:04,560 --> 01:33:09,840
I have no explanation as to much of what occurred. Wow, time,

1585
01:33:10,439 --> 01:33:12,079
that is that is amazing.

1586
01:33:12,359 --> 01:33:15,199
Speaker 1: It has been fascinating, really fascinating.

1587
01:33:15,479 --> 01:33:19,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's uh, it's it's something that I think about

1588
01:33:19,920 --> 01:33:24,319
and I try to sharpen my tools, use a rob

1589
01:33:24,439 --> 01:33:31,640
rise atage there or uh to get better at or understand.

1590
01:33:31,960 --> 01:33:34,359
But whenever I see somebody now just kind of in

1591
01:33:34,439 --> 01:33:37,359
the back of my mind, I'm like, mmm, is there

1592
01:33:37,439 --> 01:33:39,640
is there something else that is is really going on here.

1593
01:33:39,880 --> 01:33:44,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's fascinating. This has been really really interesting. I

1594
01:33:44,159 --> 01:33:47,359
appreciate you coming in and spending some time here. How

1595
01:33:47,399 --> 01:33:51,119
would you don't do private practice mental health?

1596
01:33:51,159 --> 01:33:53,880
Speaker 2: Do you as well? I A lot of a lot

1597
01:33:53,880 --> 01:33:56,239
of everything that I do is just word of mouth,

1598
01:33:56,680 --> 01:33:59,680
So okay, keep it that way. Yeah, that's that's the

1599
01:33:59,720 --> 01:34:02,039
way I'm going to keep it. But if you don't mind,

1600
01:34:02,079 --> 01:34:06,000
I do want to plug something sure, absolutely. First off,

1601
01:34:07,159 --> 01:34:10,600
I want to just give a shout out to doctor

1602
01:34:10,680 --> 01:34:14,960
rob Rice because so many times in my professional life

1603
01:34:15,000 --> 01:34:18,000
within the last eighteen months, I've sat down and said,

1604
01:34:18,039 --> 01:34:20,800
are we really doing this? Is this really happening? Yeah?

1605
01:34:21,560 --> 01:34:25,560
And that would not have been possible without you. And

1606
01:34:27,159 --> 01:34:30,680
I just appreciate being able to be a part of

1607
01:34:30,680 --> 01:34:36,359
the Wise Council get their mentorship. And I was having

1608
01:34:36,359 --> 01:34:40,279
a conversation with doctor Rice after the last podcast and

1609
01:34:40,319 --> 01:34:42,079
I said to him, and I think you were the

1610
01:34:42,079 --> 01:34:43,479
one who actually came up with the idea with for

1611
01:34:43,520 --> 01:34:45,520
that elective course, because you want to talk about knotty

1612
01:34:45,520 --> 01:34:48,520
water and some of the interviews that you're doing. And

1613
01:34:50,319 --> 01:34:53,119
so I think he was the original originator of that idea.

1614
01:34:53,680 --> 01:34:56,119
And then he let me run and take it and

1615
01:34:56,159 --> 01:34:58,199
develop some of the other parts of it. So I

1616
01:34:58,279 --> 01:35:01,840
just want to give all the in the world to him.

1617
01:35:02,239 --> 01:35:05,560
You're a legend. I appreciate you tremendously, thank you for everything.

1618
01:35:06,399 --> 01:35:09,600
And also I want to just plug a couple of

1619
01:35:09,640 --> 01:35:13,680
healers who I think are just fantastic. And first is

1620
01:35:14,079 --> 01:35:19,760
Gina Pietropoli who is over here in Pittsford. She has

1621
01:35:19,840 --> 01:35:22,760
done she does great things with reiki in a quantum

1622
01:35:22,800 --> 01:35:24,800
touch and she's been helping me put my body back

1623
01:35:24,840 --> 01:35:28,319
together this past winter when I've finish had some random

1624
01:35:28,439 --> 01:35:31,760
energy injuries come up in ailments and she's available at

1625
01:35:31,920 --> 01:35:37,279
MBS Reiki Wellness. Reiki is spelled r E I K I.

1626
01:35:37,279 --> 01:35:41,640
I also want to give acknowledge a good friend of

1627
01:35:41,640 --> 01:35:44,680
mine his name. His name is Kyle Sullivan and he

1628
01:35:44,960 --> 01:35:50,159
is a psychedelic practitioner who is out in Lavonia and

1629
01:35:50,920 --> 01:35:54,279
just an incredible educator as well. And Kyle is available

1630
01:35:54,319 --> 01:35:59,119
at Kyle Sullivan CEO at gmail dot com. The traditional

1631
01:35:59,119 --> 01:36:02,760
spellings of Kyle and Sullivan for that one. And also

1632
01:36:02,800 --> 01:36:06,159
my man Eric Bates, who is out in Tennessee easily

1633
01:36:06,319 --> 01:36:08,680
top three or four banks and healer in the on

1634
01:36:08,760 --> 01:36:13,680
the planet, and He is available at Eric Bates l

1635
01:36:13,800 --> 01:36:17,640
mt dot com and he's somebody who's been studied for

1636
01:36:17,720 --> 01:36:20,600
his effect on cancer cells. So if you're looking for

1637
01:36:21,560 --> 01:36:24,239
energy or help, I can't say enough about those three

1638
01:36:24,279 --> 01:36:29,520
practitioners who I just mentioned. Wow, that is that is fascinating. Yeah.

1639
01:36:29,600 --> 01:36:33,119
Speaker 1: I tell you that the reiki is uh, it's really there.

1640
01:36:33,279 --> 01:36:37,800
You know, it's something absolutely there is and we're all energy. Yeah.

1641
01:36:38,079 --> 01:36:41,960
Sometimes it gets stuck, the pipes are clogged. You know,

1642
01:36:42,720 --> 01:36:44,920
there are those that can help you through that stuff

1643
01:36:44,960 --> 01:36:46,960
and you you have.

1644
01:36:46,800 --> 01:36:51,000
Speaker 2: Some power yourself. Yeah. Absolutely, Yeah. I've loved this.

1645
01:36:51,520 --> 01:36:55,319
Speaker 1: Thank you very much, doctor Scott McGinnis, Mental Health Counseling

1646
01:36:55,479 --> 01:36:57,520
over at Saint John Fisher University.

1647
01:36:57,600 --> 01:36:59,960
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. Bell. I really appreciate.

1648
01:36:59,560 --> 01:37:03,920
Speaker 1: It, and I too, love being part of the wise counsel.

1649
01:37:04,000 --> 01:37:06,319
I wouldn't say I'm not the wise man part of that.

1650
01:37:06,399 --> 01:37:10,880
I just like them, you know what I mean. This

1651
01:37:10,960 --> 01:37:13,880
has been another episode of Bill Lighten min which will

1652
01:37:13,920 --> 01:37:17,359
soon in twenty twenty five be its own standalone podcast,

1653
01:37:28,560 --> 01:37:31,000
Ready to Transform Your Life In twenty twenty five, Well,

1654
01:37:31,000 --> 01:37:33,279
then I want you to go see my friend Shila Tillick.

1655
01:37:33,600 --> 01:37:36,800
She's western new York's renowned expert in quantum healing and

1656
01:37:36,920 --> 01:37:39,960
energy work. Whether you're feeling stuck or maybe you're seeking

1657
01:37:40,039 --> 01:37:44,760
deeper personal growth, Sheila partners with you every step of

1658
01:37:44,800 --> 01:37:48,800
the way through her specialized services including Reiki, chakra healing,

1659
01:37:48,880 --> 01:37:52,520
and quantum DNA therapy. Sheila helps you on block energy

1660
01:37:52,560 --> 01:37:57,239
pathways and embrace new opportunities. Her gentle guidance opens doors

1661
01:37:57,279 --> 01:38:02,039
to healing, connection, and profound personal transformation. Make twenty twenty

1662
01:38:02,119 --> 01:38:05,479
five your breakthrough year. Visit Shila Tillic dot com and

1663
01:38:05,560 --> 01:38:09,479
discover how Sheila's expertise can help you create the positive

1664
01:38:09,560 --> 01:38:13,039
changes you've been seeking. Your journey to wellness and renewal

1665
01:38:13,159 --> 01:38:17,960
begins with my friend, Sheila Tillic. Leo's Bakery and Deli.

1666
01:38:18,279 --> 01:38:19,159
Speaker 2: Get over there.

1667
01:38:19,479 --> 01:38:23,000
Speaker 1: Before the next Bill's game and be the hero that

1668
01:38:23,159 --> 01:38:26,239
walks in with the Buffalo Bill's cookies. They make great

1669
01:38:26,279 --> 01:38:30,239
cookies over there. Yeah, the Buffalo Bill's cookies. Yeah. Patrick

1670
01:38:30,279 --> 01:38:33,039
Bernuncio is a big Buffalo Bills fan. He's the man

1671
01:38:33,079 --> 01:38:37,079
behind Leo's. You're gonna just love those Buffalo Bill's cookies,

1672
01:38:37,079 --> 01:38:39,520
That's all I'm saying. You might want to get one

1673
01:38:39,600 --> 01:38:42,600
that says number seventeen, right, isn't Josh Allen just impressive?

1674
01:38:43,039 --> 01:38:45,760
Everything at Leo's is impressive. Yeah, oh gosh. You know

1675
01:38:45,760 --> 01:38:48,560
what you can get there, pre made meals. I'm just

1676
01:38:48,600 --> 01:38:50,960
saying this time of year gets very busy, right, and

1677
01:38:51,000 --> 01:38:54,279
sometimes I just don't feel like cooking, So you have

1678
01:38:54,359 --> 01:38:56,560
something that you can just pop in the oven and

1679
01:38:56,600 --> 01:39:01,079
it's easy. Everything from chicken palm, chicken pop pie, big salads.

1680
01:39:01,079 --> 01:39:03,840
If you're trying to stick to your goals of losing

1681
01:39:03,880 --> 01:39:07,520
some weight, Leo's has everything you need. What's the best

1682
01:39:07,520 --> 01:39:11,159
thing about Leo's I just said it. Everything on Deskbats

1683
01:39:11,199 --> 01:39:13,600
Drive in East Rochester open every day.