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Speaker 5: You are now listening to True Murder the most shocking
Speaker 5: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 5: written about them. Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every
Speaker 5: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 5: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with Your
Speaker 5: Host journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good.
Speaker 6: Evening, best selling author, co host of the hit podcast
Speaker 6: The Murder Squad, and true crime investigative journalist Billy Jensen
Speaker 6: goes to Columbus, Ohio, where he examines the unsolved cases
Speaker 6: of eighteen dead and missing women whom he suspects were
Speaker 6: the victims of serial killers on the loose and operating
Speaker 6: under cover of the opioid epidemic in America's heartland. In
Speaker 6: Chase Darkness with Me, listeners learned Billy Jensen's journalist origin story,
Speaker 6: his struggles, his call to adventure, and his first successes
Speaker 6: in solving murders. In Killers admist Killers, listeners will ride
Speaker 6: shotgun with Jensen as he takes on serial killers who
Speaker 6: are walking among us and planning their next moves in
Speaker 6: real time. The facts are not in old police reports
Speaker 6: and faded photos. They unfold before our ears. Our story
Speaker 6: begins in twenty seventeen, when two young women best friends,
Speaker 6: Danielle and Lindsay, go missing within weeks of each other,
Speaker 6: and their bodies are found soon thereafter. As Jensen investors
Speaker 6: agatest Danielle and Lindsay's cases, he comes across other missing
Speaker 6: and murdered women, and before long he uncovers eighteen of them,
Speaker 6: all unsolved and no one was talking about it. These
Speaker 6: are not women who were raised in the street. They
Speaker 6: got hooked on pills, the pills were taken away, they
Speaker 6: got hooked on heroin, and when the money was gone,
Speaker 6: they had to sell themselves. It all happens very quick.
Speaker 6: Through his investigations and the help of experts, Jensen identifies
Speaker 6: serial killers in Cleveland and Columbus. Why there, because it's easy.
Speaker 6: Sharks go where the swimmers are. Serial killers go where
Speaker 6: the easy prey are. Ground zero of the opioid epidemic,
Speaker 6: the heart of America. Jensen hunts these predators to bring
Speaker 6: peace to the victims suffering families while putting a spotlight
Speaker 6: on a system that is leaving hundreds of thousands of
Speaker 6: bodies in its wake. The book that we're featuring this
Speaker 6: evening is Killers amidst Killers, Hunting serial Killers Hiding under
Speaker 6: the Cloak of the Opioid Epidemic with my special guest
Speaker 6: journalist and author Billy Jensen. Welcome to the program, and
Speaker 6: thank you very much for this interview. Billy Jensen, Thanks
Speaker 6: for having me, Dan, thank you so much, and congratulations
Speaker 6: on this extraordinary book, Killers amidst Killers.
Speaker 7: Thanks, Yeah, I appreciate it. It's been it's been a long,
Speaker 7: long journey from start to finish.
Speaker 6: As we mentioned in the introduction, you started in Chase
Speaker 6: Darkness with me, and people learned about your origin story
Speaker 6: and your call to adventure and your first successes in
Speaker 6: solving murders. Now you're talking in Killers amidst Killers. Listeners
Speaker 6: will ride shotgun with you as you take us on
Speaker 6: take on serial killers who were walking amongst us and
Speaker 6: planning their next moves in real time. In this book,
Speaker 6: you get right to this story Columbus, Ohio twenty seventeen
Speaker 6: and Lindsay mccaby. So you start off telling us a
Speaker 6: little bit about the outline of her too short life
Speaker 6: and her background. So tell us about Lindsay mccaby.
Speaker 7: Yeah, Well, you know, the original germ of the story
Speaker 7: started when I was I had read a small article
Speaker 7: about and it said that two women who were best
Speaker 7: friends had gone missing and were murdered in Columbus, Ohio.
Speaker 7: And from that small article, I had been working at
Speaker 7: a show. It was a Warner Brothers show called Crimewatch
Speaker 7: Daily at the time, and I pitched that to my producers,
Speaker 7: you know, was able to go down to Columbus, and
Speaker 7: while I was at Columbus, I interviewed these people there.
Speaker 7: They apparently had lived in a house that was called
Speaker 7: the on the Streets. It was called the Home for
Speaker 7: Lost Children. It wasn't even a house that was you know,
Speaker 7: it wasn't a social services thing or anything. It was
Speaker 7: just everybody just kind of crashed at this one elderly
Speaker 7: gentleman's house. And I met the third best friend, and
Speaker 7: the third best friend whose name was Ceci.
Speaker 3: She said that, you know, I was talking to her and.
Speaker 7: You know, trying to find out what happened to these
Speaker 7: two women because the cases were unsolved. And I asked her,
Speaker 7: does it give you pause that, you you know, to
Speaker 7: get in a car again, because you know, her friends
Speaker 7: were sex workers and Cec was a sex worker, right,
Speaker 7: And she said, yeah, but I have to because I'm
Speaker 7: a drug addict. And that's really that devastating saying, you know,
Speaker 7: sentence is what started me on this journey and really
Speaker 7: digging into it. So, you know, looking into Lindsay and
Speaker 7: Danielle's backgrounds. You know, Lindsay was a mother of two,
Speaker 7: you know, and both of these these women were mother
Speaker 7: of two children.
Speaker 3: She was a mother of two.
Speaker 7: She had, like so many of the women in Columbus,
Speaker 7: had gotten addicted to opioids and needed to get money
Speaker 7: in order to fulfill the habit. She started working on
Speaker 7: the street. And these were when we talk about sex workers.
Speaker 7: Obviously there's a lot of different types of sex workers,
Speaker 7: these were women who walk the streets of South Columbus.
Speaker 7: So talking with the family and unraveling the family's journey
Speaker 7: throughout this entire thing was incredibly heartbreaking, and I said,
Speaker 7: there's got to be a story here. So then it
Speaker 7: just kept on going from there.
Speaker 6: You talk about Lindsay and her brother Stacy, and her
Speaker 6: sister Jenny, and talked to her mother Sharon and father Gordon.
Speaker 6: Now let's talk about you. You talk about the pain
Speaker 6: pills being the origin of everybody's problem in this story.
Speaker 6: Tell us where she got her start. Lindsay and before
Speaker 6: we talk about the railroad crossing in rural Ohio and
Speaker 6: the bus full of children.
Speaker 3: Right, she had started, you know, dating.
Speaker 7: You know, one of the things that you notice in
Speaker 7: this story is that almost everyone's origin story starts around
Speaker 7: a guy. You know, a guy had she was dating
Speaker 7: somebody of the guy had given her these pills and
Speaker 7: she she just got hooked on them because they are
Speaker 7: incredibly addictive, you know, That's what you know, You'll see
Speaker 7: a thread throughout the book that often it's a guy
Speaker 7: that introduces these pills to these women.
Speaker 6: What was Jenny's state despite her sister Lindsay's.
Speaker 7: So after Lindsay was murdered, Jenny kind of got on
Speaker 7: the case and was trying to She had a notebook
Speaker 7: and she was trying to put clues together and trying
Speaker 7: to figure out who did this. And then while she
Speaker 7: was doing that, sadly, Jenny overdosed from heroin and she
Speaker 7: passed away.
Speaker 6: Now, also you look at this problem of of course
Speaker 6: people beginning their addiction starting off with doctors and their
Speaker 6: prescription and prescribing pain pills for supposedly legitimate ailments. But
Speaker 6: you also cite what happened with this oxycodone and this
Speaker 6: opioid problem in the United States, and what was the
Speaker 6: reaction by authorities and as a result, what were addicts
Speaker 6: left to do?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 7: You know, And you know, this book's started in twenty
Speaker 7: sixteen when I started, you know, working on it, and
Speaker 7: or twenty seventeen, so it's you know, the landscape has
Speaker 7: even changed even more. But you know, we know that.
Speaker 8: The the opioids, which started with with oxy and obviously
Speaker 8: you had vicot in as well, there was a lot
Speaker 8: of prescriptions being written.
Speaker 3: There was a lot of pill doctors.
Speaker 7: There was a lot of people going down to these
Speaker 7: pill mills, you know, people down and up. You know,
Speaker 7: I had talked to some people about in the story
Speaker 7: going to Florida. There was a lot of stuff in
Speaker 7: Florida and then making the run from Florida getting the pills,
Speaker 7: driving them back up to Ohio. And you know, what
Speaker 7: we're seeing now is that fentanyl has completely taken over,
Speaker 7: taken over everything, right, just because it's so much cheaper,
Speaker 7: and it's cheaper on the streets. It's cheaper for everyone
Speaker 7: because it's so it's synthetic. You don't need the op
Speaker 7: you don't need a poppy for it, you know, that's
Speaker 7: where we're at right now. While before when you would
Speaker 7: talk about overdoses, you would talk about first it was heroin.
Speaker 7: Then people were overdosing on maybe oxy or something like that,
Speaker 7: or they went from oxy into heroin right because the
Speaker 7: oxy had dried up. But now it's all fentanyl. You know,
Speaker 7: a lot of the deaths that we're seeing right now
Speaker 7: with fentanyl are poisonings. You know, a lot of times,
Speaker 7: you know, just because there's so many people that are
Speaker 7: taking of you know, somebody might give them and say
Speaker 7: it's a vicain, but it's a vicad and they bought
Speaker 7: on the street and it has fentanyl in it and
Speaker 7: it was made in somebody's basement, and then they die.
Speaker 7: So that's where we're at right now, and it's even
Speaker 7: more dangerous than what you're seeing in the book.
Speaker 6: Now you are not just talking about addiction in this book, obviously,
Speaker 6: you're talking about murder. And in twenty seventeen you write
Speaker 6: about a railroad crossing in rural Ohio. A bus full
Speaker 6: of chill then pulls up to a railroad crossing and
Speaker 6: the driver sees something in the field. What does he see?
Speaker 6: What happens a month later, pretty close to the same location.
Speaker 7: Yeah, so a I mean, imagine you're a kid on
Speaker 7: a bus going to school. You hit a railroad crossing
Speaker 7: and there's really there's nothing around this railroad crossing. This
Speaker 7: is this is really it's a it's a railroad right
Speaker 7: in the middle of a bunch of fields and you
Speaker 7: look over and then in a in a clearing.
Speaker 3: Just a few miles off, a few feet.
Speaker 7: Off the road is a body and it's a naked
Speaker 7: body and she had been brutally murdered. And that was
Speaker 7: the body of Lindsay mccabee. From there, you know, just
Speaker 7: a few miles away, Danielle's body was found and her
Speaker 7: her body was was more hidden. Her body was sort
Speaker 7: of probably about half mile or a quarter mile into
Speaker 7: you know, away from the road, behind a field, you know,
Speaker 7: the planter. The plantings had all been done for the season,
Speaker 7: they had already been harvested. So that's where they both
Speaker 7: were found, very close to each other. And they didn't
Speaker 7: you know, they started in in the urban area, and
Speaker 7: that's where where they were picked up or where we
Speaker 7: still don't.
Speaker 3: Know what happened. That's where they were picked up, right.
Speaker 7: But they they you know, went out there and that's
Speaker 7: where they met their end. And you know, there's only
Speaker 7: so much you can do when you know, I wanted
Speaker 7: to go to those crime scenes, so you know, you
Speaker 7: meet the family, the families in Columbus, and then I
Speaker 7: drove out with the families actually and the police to
Speaker 7: the crime scenes. And you know, you really see particularly
Speaker 7: with where Daniels Danielle's body was found.
Speaker 3: Is that.
Speaker 7: You know, people were some people were talking that, oh,
Speaker 7: that has to be a trucker. You know, you hear
Speaker 7: a lot about right there was this highway serial killer
Speaker 7: initiative that was had been going on that we talked
Speaker 7: about how many people are found near highways and a
Speaker 7: lot of trucker killers. And there are trucker killers. That's
Speaker 7: truck or serial killers is a thing. You know, you
Speaker 7: pick up a woman from a truck stop who is
Speaker 7: a sex worker, you drive them to another truck stop,
Speaker 7: nobody reports them.
Speaker 3: Missing, and then they.
Speaker 7: Might get killed along the way and nobody is you know,
Speaker 7: no alarm bells are wrung out for them. Where Danielle's
Speaker 7: body was found, you couldn't get a truck back there
Speaker 7: and somebody would have had to carry her back there.
Speaker 7: So it really looking at these the circumstances, I surmised
Speaker 7: that that this had to be somebody local. This had
Speaker 7: to be somebody that knows where these two areas are
Speaker 7: and knew this would be a good place to deposit
Speaker 7: a body.
Speaker 6: You right, that naked bodies. Naked body of Lindsey had
Speaker 6: was bludgeoned, her throat was slit, and she'd been missing
Speaker 6: forty eight hours and last seen, like you say, in
Speaker 6: South Columbus. And a month later, Danielle Green, who'd been
Speaker 6: missing thirty days, she was found. They said eighty five
Speaker 6: percent skeletonized. What we have to mention is, I think
Speaker 6: is that they were best friends. They lived together. Yeah,
Speaker 6: and CCI also so there's there's many people that knew
Speaker 6: of Danielle and of Lindsay and you got to speak
Speaker 6: with them. So also tell us a little bit about
Speaker 6: as you mentioned early twenty fifteen, six women in if
Speaker 6: I pronounced this incorrectly, Chillicothe, Ohio. And you say, a
Speaker 6: much different paying attention by people in the newspapers and
Speaker 6: the media because you said there were ideal victims.
Speaker 7: Yes, you know, you know the stories of Danielle Lindsay
Speaker 7: did not get any national press. But Chilicothy did, and
Speaker 7: the you know, somebody had had started putting it together
Speaker 7: that win, there's there's there's some women here. You know,
Speaker 7: why are there so many missing and murdered women in Chilicothe?
Speaker 7: It looks like the women in child So that that
Speaker 7: became a national story, you know. And there was also
Speaker 7: one of the things that happened is the case that
Speaker 7: I had had covered as well in West Virginia. A
Speaker 7: woman had murdered a man who was she was a
Speaker 7: sex worker. A man had come over. She murdered the
Speaker 7: man or the band attacked her, and she defended herself
Speaker 7: and then killed her. A guy's name is Neil Falls.
Speaker 7: And inside of Neil Falls's car was a kill kit,
Speaker 7: which is, you know, everything that you would need to
Speaker 7: abduct and murder somebody. And you know, this courageous young
Speaker 7: woman was able to fight him off.
Speaker 3: Because of that.
Speaker 7: They were thinking, well, who could this person have killed?
Speaker 7: You know, they looked at Chillicothe because that story had
Speaker 7: just come out recently about those victims, and it was
Speaker 7: basically it was four women that were deceased, Tamika, Shasta, Timberly,
Speaker 7: and Tiffany, and then there was two women that had
Speaker 7: been missing, which was wanted Charlotte, and they you know,
Speaker 7: kind of put two and two together and said, well,
Speaker 7: this Neil Falls guy, maybe he was related to these murders.
Speaker 7: So that got a lot of play. It turns out that,
Speaker 7: you know, nothing was ever connected between Neil Falls and
Speaker 7: these women in Chillicothe, but there was a small spotlight
Speaker 7: on Chillicothe and Ohio for just a small bit of time.
Speaker 6: You go to South Columbus for this investigation, and you
Speaker 6: hook up with Scott Green, Danielle's father, and they take
Speaker 6: you to some, as you write, some scary, sketchy places,
Speaker 6: and you talk to a guy named Roscoe, tell us
Speaker 6: about some of the places you see and the things
Speaker 6: you learn visiting. And the name that comes up right
Speaker 6: away when you're down there.
Speaker 7: Yeah, so you know, talking with Roscoe, and you know,
Speaker 7: Roscoe is the elderly gentleman who ran the home for
Speaker 7: lost children. He had lost his wife and he had,
Speaker 7: you know, just opened his house to anybody who wanted
Speaker 7: to stay there. So when we got out of the car,
Speaker 7: you know, and I had had armed security with me.
Speaker 7: That was one of the things that they always wanted
Speaker 7: you to do if you were going to be in
Speaker 7: you know, potentially going at Harm's Way. And it was
Speaker 7: interesting because, you know, when we drove up, there was
Speaker 7: a lot of people just on the street, and we
Speaker 7: drove up, and then they thought we were cops, so
Speaker 7: everybody scattered. And then once they saw that it was
Speaker 7: somebody with a film crew, everybody came back out. You know,
Speaker 7: it was about probably like thirty people out on the street.
Speaker 7: You know, they didn't quite know why we were there.
Speaker 7: And then we started talking and yeah, the name that
Speaker 7: had had come out is as far as who might
Speaker 7: have done this to the two women, was the name
Speaker 7: white Boy.
Speaker 3: That was the first possible suspect. And white Boy was
Speaker 3: you know, was he a boyfriend, was he a pimp?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 7: But White Boy had been in you know, just talking
Speaker 7: with the cops. He was in the wind, he had
Speaker 7: gone missing.
Speaker 6: You talk about white Boy, but before we go too
Speaker 6: much further, is there a significance or tell us the
Speaker 6: significance of the term white boy.
Speaker 7: Yeah, you know, it turns out he was a a
Speaker 7: light skinned black guy.
Speaker 3: That's it.
Speaker 6: When you originally in your in your original work, you
Speaker 6: utilized Facebook pages very effectively, and you your hope with
Speaker 6: the system that you use to identify Marque Gains attacker,
Speaker 6: which helped solve other murders. It might be able to
Speaker 6: aid in the investigation of who killed Danielle and Lindsay.
Speaker 6: So tell us about this strategy and this initiative.
Speaker 3: Yeah, with the.
Speaker 7: Marcus Gains case, I had seen a murder in a
Speaker 7: man had been attacked on the street and there was
Speaker 7: really good video of the of the perpetrator and it
Speaker 7: still had been unsolved, and it had been months and
Speaker 7: months and months, and I thought to myself, I know
Speaker 7: how to use social media. I know how to get
Speaker 7: people's attention online. Let me see if I could catch
Speaker 7: this guy. I was able to you know, sort of
Speaker 7: a Twitter page, a Facebook page and Instagram page just
Speaker 7: for that particular crime. And I was able to, you know,
Speaker 7: through social media and through crowd, you know, using the crowd,
Speaker 7: I was able to identify the perpetrator and he was arrested.
Speaker 7: So from there I started using that technique for other
Speaker 7: people that might might have been found who had been
Speaker 7: murdered and their killer was caught on video that you know,
Speaker 7: usually the video wasn't clear, but I might be able
Speaker 7: to using GEO targeted advertising and buying advertising in these areas,
Speaker 7: can find somebody who might recognize the person and then
Speaker 7: get a name and then give the name to the police.
Speaker 7: You know, I started doing that and had about fifty
Speaker 7: cases running at one point or another and was able
Speaker 7: to get you know, there was probably five that I
Speaker 7: that I really did by myself and was able to
Speaker 7: get the name that the police didn't have, and then
Speaker 7: I helped them out with little, you know, other things
Speaker 7: for the other five that was it was one of
Speaker 7: the you know, interesting things that happened with it. And
Speaker 7: that's what I talk about in the first book, Chase
Speaker 7: Darkness with Me, is that it was you know, it
Speaker 7: was a good technique and it was something that you know,
Speaker 7: using something that everybody was using at the time, which
Speaker 7: is Facebook, which is definitely the usage, particularly around young people,
Speaker 7: has really gone down with Facebook. But you know, back
Speaker 7: then when I was doing it in twenty sixteen, seventeen eighteen,
Speaker 7: it really was working.
Speaker 6: You talk to a lot of people in this investigation
Speaker 6: and you talk about the work of Thomas Hargrove about
Speaker 6: serial killer clusters and the Moneyball of Murder. Can you
Speaker 6: tell us about serial killer clusters and that analysis.
Speaker 7: Yeah, So Tom Hargrove is a journalist who started noticing
Speaker 7: patterns of, you know, murders in areas that had significant
Speaker 7: similarities and maybe these could draw the conclusion that these
Speaker 7: are serial murders. So he created this database, the Murder
Speaker 7: Accountability Project MAP, and you can go on there right
Speaker 7: now and you can do a search and try to find,
Speaker 7: you know, everybody that had been you know, how many
Speaker 7: murders were of young women that were stabbed in a
Speaker 7: certain location. And then you know, if you find enough
Speaker 7: of the same some of the people that were killed
Speaker 7: under the same circumstances, this very well might be a
Speaker 7: murder cluster. And it's something that you need to look into.
Speaker 7: So I got to spend some time with Tom. The
Speaker 7: data is only as good and that map system is
Speaker 7: only as good as the data that is sent to him,
Speaker 7: and so I had certain murders that he didn't have,
Speaker 7: and then looking through his case his database, and the
Speaker 7: database doesn't have the names. The database just has the
Speaker 7: actual of the murder.
Speaker 3: Right, so you know, one thing that does have is
Speaker 3: the age.
Speaker 7: So if you have a twenty five year old woman
Speaker 7: who was stabbed and you know the year, you'd have
Speaker 7: to just go and google it and then try and
Speaker 7: figure out who that was, and which is easier said
Speaker 7: than done when you're dealing with a city. But when
Speaker 7: you're dealing with, you know, a smaller city like Columbus,
Speaker 7: where you were able to figure out who the people
Speaker 7: were and that opened up that really opened up the Wow,
Speaker 7: there's definitely an issue here.
Speaker 6: You and Tom Hargrove, for at least you both talk
Speaker 6: about clearance rates and why clearance rates are important to
Speaker 6: this story.
Speaker 7: Yes, you know clearance rates in the in nineteen sixty
Speaker 7: the clearance rate was ninety percent, and the clearance rate
Speaker 7: is is basically solving a murder. It's really it's it's
Speaker 7: somebody is charged with the murder. Clearance rates right now,
Speaker 7: are you know, maybe sixty percent a little bit less
Speaker 7: than sixty percent? Now, why is that? There's a lot
Speaker 7: of reasons. One is that there's a there's a you know,
Speaker 7: drugs and guns are the two biggest reasons. You can't
Speaker 7: escape that. The third is that we have a very
Speaker 7: transient population. People really don't know each other, people move
Speaker 7: around a lot and that kind of thing. Fourth is
Speaker 7: that you know, changes in the law and also you
Speaker 7: know there were railroading people you know back then and
Speaker 7: then putting people in jail you know that might not
Speaker 7: have even done it. But you know, the clearance rates
Speaker 7: important because obviously, if you don't catch the killer, the
Speaker 7: killer could potentially go out and kill again. You know,
Speaker 7: if somebody had killed one time, they are more likely
Speaker 7: to kill another time than somebody who hadn't killed anybody before.
Speaker 7: So that's what we're doing, is when we're talking about
Speaker 7: the clearance rates and how they're important.
Speaker 6: You're right about the Uniform Crime Report created by Congress
Speaker 6: in nineteen thirty and yet this is a federal, federal initiative.
Speaker 6: But you talk about but data entry is voluntary. Yeah,
Speaker 6: and ninety percent of that data provided by the Criminal
Speaker 6: Justice Information Services Division of the FBI in West Virginia.
Speaker 6: You say, it's messy, incomplete, and the federal government, with
Speaker 6: the FBI none were reporting their data to the Crime
Speaker 6: Uniform Report.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 7: So that so the stories that were under the you know,
Speaker 7: crimes that were under the FBI jurisdiction even weren't being reported,
Speaker 7: which is a problem. But yeah, you know, you've got
Speaker 7: seventeen thousand different you know, law enforcement agencies, and they're
Speaker 7: all different, they all have all different computer systems, and
Speaker 7: you know, a lot of them have gotten more technologically savvy,
Speaker 7: but you know, especially in the nineties, and you know,
Speaker 7: up till you know, you would always see these police
Speaker 7: departments and you'd go into the police departments and see
Speaker 7: the computers that they had and be like, damn, you know,
Speaker 7: there's no wonder you know that. You know, these guys,
Speaker 7: these cops are given the worst computers.
Speaker 3: Some of them couldn't even get online.
Speaker 7: I remember being in a few police departments and they're
Speaker 7: just like, yeah, we can't even get online.
Speaker 3: You know, you have you know.
Speaker 7: I remember when I was I did a show about
Speaker 7: dB Cooper and they paired me with a former deputy
Speaker 7: director of the FBI, and I was complaining to him
Speaker 7: about this very thing, and I was just like, you know,
Speaker 7: none of them talked to each other, everything like that.
Speaker 7: And he's like, it's because when we started the country,
Speaker 7: we were worried about tyranny. We weren't worried about computer systems,
Speaker 7: and that that's why everything is so separate in America.
Speaker 7: And you know, it's one of those things that we
Speaker 7: just have to deal with. It might have worked a
Speaker 7: little bit when people didn't move around as much, and
Speaker 7: there weren't cars and people stuck in the same place.
Speaker 3: For their whole lives.
Speaker 7: But people move around a hell of a lot now,
Speaker 7: and we need that data to be a hell of
Speaker 7: a lot better.
Speaker 6: You talk about the murder rates in places like Los Angeles,
Speaker 6: but also in New York. We're at eighty seven percent
Speaker 6: back to the murder rate closing of these cases, but
Speaker 6: in Baltimore, Chicago, Saint Louis and New Orleans, for example,
Speaker 6: forty six percent from two thousand and eight to twenty
Speaker 6: and eighteen. So dramatic decrease in these clearance rates.
Speaker 7: Yes, yeah, you know, a lot of that just happened,
Speaker 7: you know, you know, and a lot of these murders
Speaker 7: are street murders. They're they're yes, typically they will be
Speaker 7: gang related or drug related. But you know, the murder
Speaker 7: clearance rates in New York and LA, yeah, they were good.
Speaker 7: Our murder rates right now are at an all time high.
Speaker 7: Unsolved killing rates are at a record high right now.
Speaker 7: Even you know, this book was finished, you know, right
Speaker 7: after the pandemic, pretty much, but it was you know,
Speaker 7: we are we're among the of the industrialized world right now.
Speaker 7: We are we are sitting at like some of the
Speaker 7: worst numbers out of everybody in the industrial world. You know,
Speaker 7: you look at a place like Chicago, I think they're
Speaker 7: at thirty five percent.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and you combine that with the phenomena you call
Speaker 6: linkage blindness. Tell us how this plays into not recognizing
Speaker 6: serial killers.
Speaker 7: Yeah, you know, you know, linkage blindness is one of
Speaker 7: the things where you see a great example is the
Speaker 7: Manson family murders. So with the Manson family murders, you know,
Speaker 7: you had on the first night, you had, you know,
Speaker 7: a murder in the Hollywood Hills of Sharon Tate and
Speaker 7: Jay se Bring and these these people who were sort
Speaker 7: of this Hollywood elite type of thing. They're murdered brutally,
Speaker 7: and there was and there was words written on the
Speaker 7: wall and on the door in blood. The next day
Speaker 7: at the Labianca's house, they're murdered brutally. Names are written
Speaker 7: in blood, and the police said they can't those aren't
Speaker 7: related because the victims have nothing.
Speaker 3: To do with each other. While you're looking at it.
Speaker 7: Now and you're saying, how could these not be related?
Speaker 7: Their names are being written on the walls of blood.
Speaker 7: The police went and said that because the victimology was different.
Speaker 7: And it's that sort of thing that is linkage blind blindness.
Speaker 7: So if you see start seeing, you know, murders of
Speaker 7: people that are so similar, there's got to be some
Speaker 7: sort of link to them and not really you know,
Speaker 7: put putting two and two together. That's what linkage blindness is.
Speaker 6: You take us to another case, when you go to
Speaker 6: Columbus and you see Jamie Bowen's home and a B
Speaker 6: on that home in your visit, Yes, tell us about that.
Speaker 7: Yeah, So you know, this was incredibly eerie because you know,
Speaker 7: I'm driving around, we're talking about two women who've been
Speaker 7: missing and murdered. And then Scott Green, who's Danielle Green's father, says,
Speaker 7: if you just take a left over here, there's another
Speaker 7: woman who went missing. And you know, I drive past
Speaker 7: this house and there's a giant banner Jamie Bowen missing,
Speaker 7: and it was just you know, that was another thing.
Speaker 7: It's like, what the hell is going on in this town?
Speaker 7: I felt like the movie, you know, the movie Lost Boys,
Speaker 7: where you're you're in this town and then you're seeing
Speaker 7: all these missing pursing posters up. You know, it's just
Speaker 7: like there's something something weird is going on here. And
Speaker 7: I stopped and talked with the family, and Jamie was
Speaker 7: a you know, very similar to the two women. She
Speaker 7: was a mom, done sex work, and she had gone missing.
Speaker 6: This is an opportunit. I need to stop for a
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Speaker 6: Now you write about a dramatic example of what happens
Speaker 6: with this epidemic and these all of these societal issues
Speaker 6: and this confluence of events, and you talk about a
Speaker 6: person named Andrew Mitchell, a vice cop in August twenty eighteen,
Speaker 6: and Donna Castleberry again a mother of two girls. Tell
Speaker 6: us about Andrew Mitchell.
Speaker 7: Yeah, so amidst all of this, we have this case
Speaker 7: of Andrew Mitchell, who was a vice cop.
Speaker 3: Now he was a guy in his fifties.
Speaker 7: He served with the Columbus Police Force. And what he
Speaker 7: would do is he would pick up women who had
Speaker 7: been in you know, who were working the streets.
Speaker 3: And this is on a he did it.
Speaker 7: You know, I don't know if he I don't have
Speaker 7: any clear examples of anything that he did in South Columbus,
Speaker 7: but there were two areas in Columbus where you would
Speaker 7: find sex workers and this was.
Speaker 3: On the west side.
Speaker 7: And he picked up Donald Casterbury. And this is what
Speaker 7: he would do, is that he would you know, I'll
Speaker 7: arrest you or you have to have sex with me.
Speaker 7: So he's raping these women. He picked her up, he
Speaker 7: drove her to a secluded area. He parked his car
Speaker 7: right up against a Now and he's in plain clothes
Speaker 7: right now, So he parks his car right up against
Speaker 7: a brick wall. So she's trapped. You know, the passenger
Speaker 7: side is up against a brick wall. And you know,
Speaker 7: Donna knows that women have been murdered, and she's you know,
Speaker 7: this is twenty eighteen so she has heard the stories
Speaker 7: about women being murdered. She has no idea who this
Speaker 7: guy is. You know, this guy's saying is a police officer,
Speaker 7: but who knows. And Donna tries to get away, and
Speaker 7: Andrew Mitchell ends up shooting her and killing her. And
Speaker 7: there is a lot of a lot more comes out
Speaker 7: about Andrew Mitchell, and then about the vice squad.
Speaker 3: You know, I go through that in the book.
Speaker 6: You go on and talk about June twenty twenty, in Ohio,
Speaker 6: ninety five miles southeast of Columbus, sex workers were being
Speaker 6: murdered and gone missing, and as you're right, no one
Speaker 6: seemed to be doing anything about it. Somebody said about
Speaker 6: someone being in a drum in a backyard. Can you
Speaker 6: tell us the story of William Slayton.
Speaker 7: Yes, so you know when it comes to William Slayton.
Speaker 7: This is a town in Middletown, Ohio, and there's a
Speaker 7: guy named William. You know, he lives in this house,
Speaker 7: and really, you know it, it was like a house
Speaker 7: of horrors on the on the outside of least, I
Speaker 7: can't imagine what it was like on the inside. But
Speaker 7: the cops show up to his house to investigate something
Speaker 7: he starts to run, and they find in his backyard
Speaker 7: or right behind his backyard, they find a woman in
Speaker 7: a barrel, A dead woman in a barrel, woman's body
Speaker 7: he had. Upon searching his house, they found out that
Speaker 7: he had cut off her fingertips with a cigar cutter,
Speaker 7: and cut off her tattoos with a razor blade and
Speaker 7: put them in a tupper ar bowl.
Speaker 3: Wow, yeah, you know.
Speaker 7: He he cut then then he then he put her
Speaker 7: in a metal drum, took it out, you know, towards
Speaker 7: the backyard. And this guy was, you know, try I
Speaker 7: think he might have tried to claim self defense, and
Speaker 7: you know, it was just they couldn't exactly determine the
Speaker 7: cause of death. She did have some methamphetamine in her system.
Speaker 7: But you know, obviously you know he was he had
Speaker 7: abused a corpse.
Speaker 3: That was definitely definite. You know. So this was, you know,
Speaker 3: my introduction to Middletown, Ohio.
Speaker 6: He had gone to. You write about him going to
Speaker 6: the grand jury and trying to pull off a story
Speaker 6: about how the woman had hung herself in despair. It's
Speaker 6: very revealing the narcissistic and rationalization that he employed.
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, now he was, Yeah, he was Slaton, who
Speaker 7: is by the way, he's like a thirty five year
Speaker 7: old guy. And the woman was named Cecily and she
Speaker 7: was twenty one. He eventually, yeah, he was grasping ast
Speaker 7: draws and he had been charged with murder and I
Speaker 7: think he pled guilty to involuntary manslaughter and he got
Speaker 7: about fifteen years fourteen years.
Speaker 6: You talk about all kinds of other serial killers and
Speaker 6: again their favorite target being the sex worker because no
Speaker 6: one will notice, or as you describe in the book
Speaker 6: Steven Eggers term the less dead. And so we get
Speaker 6: to a person named Elizabeth Griffith and you call this
Speaker 6: chapter Interview with a Vampire. And Sean Gret tell us
Speaker 6: about Sean Grat.
Speaker 3: Yes, so you know Sean Grey was you know, sort
Speaker 3: of the exam.
Speaker 7: You know, up until this point of the book, we
Speaker 7: are dealing with victims. And you know, yes, we had
Speaker 7: found the guy in Middletown. But you know, when you
Speaker 7: get to showing great in this house of horrors that
Speaker 7: he had, you know he was, you become you come
Speaker 7: face to face with an American serial killer.
Speaker 3: You know, you come face to face with.
Speaker 7: A guy who who was convicted of killing at least
Speaker 7: five women, in Ohio between two thousand and six to
Speaker 7: about twenty sixteen.
Speaker 6: Tell us about your interview with him, what you ask,
Speaker 6: what you gained from him, and what you don't.
Speaker 7: Yeah, you know, with with Sean, I wanted to talk
Speaker 7: to him. There was a possibility because it was two thousand,
Speaker 7: you know, there was a possibility that he could have
Speaker 7: have been related to some of the murders that I
Speaker 7: have been working on, you know, and get into his
Speaker 7: head and you know, talking with him, you could tell,
Speaker 7: you know, he's he's a liar. He is he's a
Speaker 7: guy that is bored in jail and will talk to
Speaker 7: you and and that sort of thing. But he was
Speaker 7: just a you know, a dope and then started ending,
Speaker 7: you know, asking for money and and that sort of things.
Speaker 3: But you know, he had he had killed his girlfriends.
Speaker 7: He had killed you know, people that he had just
Speaker 7: just met, uh and buried their bodies in this house
Speaker 7: that he had, which you know, and I go through
Speaker 7: in detail just the awful crime scene that uh and
Speaker 7: and the and the the interrogation of him, which was
Speaker 7: masterfully done by the police once they had caught him.
Speaker 6: Getting back to to Lindsey and Vanielle Green and their
Speaker 6: families and this investigation and all the things in the
Speaker 6: interaction that you have with them to try to solve this.
Speaker 6: But we hadn't mentioned your interactions with police Fairfield County,
Speaker 6: South Columbus, and Middletown, just the why you thought that
Speaker 6: to expand your investigation a little bit more about the
Speaker 6: clusters and your response and your reaction from police in
Speaker 6: those counties areas.
Speaker 7: You know, it's certainly you know, we start in Columbus,
Speaker 7: so you know, those police wouldn't talk to me because
Speaker 7: they said, listen, the bodies were found in Fairfield County,
Speaker 7: talk to Fairfield County. They did talk to me, at
Speaker 7: least in the beginning they did, and came out with
Speaker 7: me to where the bodies were found. And then once
Speaker 7: you start finding out about these other town Middletown and
Speaker 7: Dayton and that sort of thing, and you know, just
Speaker 7: start realizing that you've got these police departments that some
Speaker 7: of them are talking to each other, some of them aren't.
Speaker 7: Some of these cases are certainly not a top priority.
Speaker 7: And you know, working with the police is always going
Speaker 7: to be a mixed bag.
Speaker 3: When you're a journalist.
Speaker 7: There's going to be some police that see you as
Speaker 7: an asset, and there's going to be some police that
Speaker 7: see you as a menace or see you as somebody
Speaker 7: that they they just don't want to deal with. So
Speaker 7: that's one of the things that you have to deal
Speaker 7: with when you're writing a book like this, and there
Speaker 7: are certain people that won't even talk to you.
Speaker 6: You also advocate in about an open source database for sluice,
Speaker 6: for amateur sluice and also for police and tell us why,
Speaker 6: you know.
Speaker 7: Let's get you know, there's so many people that are
Speaker 7: interested in this sort of thing and could put two
Speaker 7: and two together, you know the listen, the hardest thing
Speaker 7: is to get you know, with murders like these, obviously
Speaker 7: you got to get the name first. But you know,
Speaker 7: once and that's one of the things that I was
Speaker 7: doing in Chase Darkness with me is that the name
Speaker 7: was a needle in a haystack. Nobody knew the name
Speaker 7: of who might have murdered this person. I was able
Speaker 7: to find the name and then give it to the
Speaker 7: police and give them a little bit of evidence and info.
Speaker 7: But then the police got to build a case, and
Speaker 7: that's entirely different thing. Yeah, the murder maybe caught on
Speaker 7: video or they were the person that is shown with
Speaker 7: the with the murdered person right before the video. But
Speaker 7: you know, then you've got to you've got to build
Speaker 7: the case. But you know, getting that name at the beginning,
Speaker 7: or putting two and two together is something that we
Speaker 7: need to do.
Speaker 3: My thought was.
Speaker 7: That, you know, much like the Murder Cantability Project, but
Speaker 7: if we had, if we actually had the names of
Speaker 7: the victims on there, it might make it easier for
Speaker 7: some of these murders to be able to be solved
Speaker 7: by and some of the connections be made by regular
Speaker 7: citizens sleuths, and then you know, sending those off to
Speaker 7: the police and then the police could do what they
Speaker 7: want with it.
Speaker 6: You even try to contact Ohio Attorney General Dave Yost
Speaker 6: and his press representative Steve Irwin. Tell us what that reaction?
Speaker 6: What did you get from them?
Speaker 7: Yeah, you know, they originally were seemed like they were
Speaker 7: going to talk to me and then they pulled out.
Speaker 7: You know, they did have some stuff that was going
Speaker 7: on at the time. There was you know, this was
Speaker 7: in the middle of the pandemic. There was a the
Speaker 7: death of a woman that had happened in the area,
Speaker 7: and then there was some marches that were.
Speaker 3: Going on and that sort of thing. So but yeah,
Speaker 3: they just didn't didn't want to talk.
Speaker 7: To me, and I explained to them, Listen, you're going
Speaker 7: to have a spotlight on you when this book comes out,
Speaker 7: and you're gonna have to, you know, potentially answer for things.
Speaker 7: So maybe they'll they'll talk more, because you know, a
Speaker 7: lot of these murders are still unsolved. You know, there's,
Speaker 7: like I like to tell people, there's two ways to
Speaker 7: solve a murder. There's one to actually get in and
Speaker 7: find the name and then give it to the police,
Speaker 7: you know, but then there's also shining a spotlight on
Speaker 7: something and getting the police to to put more resources
Speaker 7: towards the investigation.
Speaker 3: And then, you know, that's what I'm hoping that this
Speaker 3: book will do.
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Speaker 3: What's every details?
Speaker 6: Now you talk? Let's go back to white Boy. You
Speaker 6: originally had that name for a potential suspect, possible suspect
Speaker 6: in Danielle and Lindsay's murders and disappearances. You had a number.
Speaker 6: You spoke to police in Columbus and they said it
Speaker 6: was a dead end. They had the same number. Now
Speaker 6: you did some slew thing and came upon his number
Speaker 6: somewhere else. Tell us about that decision to call and
Speaker 6: that phone call to white Boy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I had the number. I asked the police.
Speaker 3: I said, well, what do you.
Speaker 7: Why don't you just set up a date with this
Speaker 7: with this number and then you know, hopefully he'll show up.
Speaker 7: And the police wouldn't do it, And the police said,
Speaker 7: we're not running the investigation this way, and I thought,
Speaker 7: well that's sucks. But I didn't want to get involved
Speaker 7: in the investigation, you know, at that point, so I
Speaker 7: gave them room. But then after a while I was like,
Speaker 7: let me do a search for this you know, this number,
Speaker 7: and it turns out I found a new ad for
Speaker 7: a new girl that he had been working and you know,
Speaker 7: just said, you know, just he's out here again. He's
Speaker 7: still doing this, you know, and reaching out to the
Speaker 7: police and saying, you know, something needs to be done here.
Speaker 3: You know, that's one of the things when you really.
Speaker 7: Start banging your head against the wall, is that you're
Speaker 7: finding these things and individuals, whether you're a journalist or
Speaker 7: a regular civilian type person, there's only so much you
Speaker 7: can do, obviously, and you know, finding all of this
Speaker 7: information about him and having them not act is one
Speaker 7: of the frustrations that frustrations that you read about in
Speaker 7: the book.
Speaker 6: You talk to Scott Green. Scott Green has had a
Speaker 6: problem in an addiction, and of course you talked to Ceci,
Speaker 6: who it was central her statement that she was just
Speaker 6: an addict, just a drug addict. Tell us about the
Speaker 6: updates on Scott and Cec.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I had talked to Ceci and she had she
Speaker 7: had moved out of Columbus and she.
Speaker 3: Had told me that she had had had kicked her habit.
Speaker 7: I had heard other reports following that that that she
Speaker 7: was back in Columbus, and she kind of I lost
Speaker 7: track of her. She was able at least to get
Speaker 7: out for for a little bit. Scott, on the other hand,
Speaker 7: was you know, obviously, you know, he had been he
Speaker 7: had gotten caught up with the pills and everything for
Speaker 7: a long time, and he eventually was able to kick
Speaker 7: the habit, you know. And when I went out with him,
Speaker 7: he was he was in withdrawal. I didn't know. I mean,
Speaker 7: I knew something was a little off with him because
Speaker 7: he was sweating a lot. And he said when I
Speaker 7: hooked up with him, you know, a couple of years later.
Speaker 7: So it's like, yeah, I wasn't really bad with Dual
Speaker 7: when we were out. When I go and I talked
Speaker 7: to you know, and this is actually before I got sober.
Speaker 7: You know, he pulls out an app and he tells
Speaker 7: me like exactly how long he had been he had
Speaker 7: been sober, you know, down to the minute, and you know,
Speaker 7: I use that app now.
Speaker 3: So that's one of the things that I remember about that.
Speaker 6: You mentioned that you got sober, and so that is
Speaker 6: in the afterward in the book, you talk about getting
Speaker 6: sober and the reason for that, and a conversation with
Speaker 6: your father as well. Can you tell us about that
Speaker 6: a conversation with my father about his addiction.
Speaker 7: When was this convers I'm not sure when I was
Speaker 7: that in the afterward, I'm not sure, yes, which you're
Speaker 7: talking about?
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, but you know I was, you know, my
Speaker 3: thought my father had been a heroin addict.
Speaker 7: He was able to kick it before I was born,
Speaker 7: but he maintained taking pills. He took a Darvon, which
Speaker 7: was like Vikadin back in the day, and he, you know,
Speaker 7: one of the things he made me promise was to
Speaker 7: never do hard drugs. You know, what he was talking
Speaker 7: about was was heroin and coke. But you know, we
Speaker 7: never really talked about pain pills. I had taken pain
Speaker 7: pills before I had got you know, I think if
Speaker 7: it wasn't for the side effects, I think I probably
Speaker 7: would have gotten hooked on him. My drugger choice was alcohol,
Speaker 7: and you know, I was drinking every day and for
Speaker 7: you know, about fifteen years and drinking heavily, you know,
Speaker 7: towards towards the end there, and then you know, was
Speaker 7: able to go to rehab and pull out of that skid.
Speaker 7: And you know the book is, you know, because I
Speaker 7: was so many people that I was interviewing. Quite frankly,
Speaker 7: I think almost everybody that was interviewing had had an issue,
Speaker 7: was either an active active addiction or addiction you know,
Speaker 7: might have just kicked or was in really recovery. And
Speaker 7: you know, I think the book would have been those
Speaker 7: chapters probably would have been a little different.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 7: One of the things that you know, you always get something,
Speaker 7: you know, the one quotes that stick with you. And
Speaker 7: there's a part in the book where I go to
Speaker 7: I had sort of a halfway house for women who
Speaker 7: were out in the streets and then they when they
Speaker 7: go to jail, after they get out, they go to
Speaker 7: this house and you know, talking with this woman and
Speaker 7: she was telling me about.
Speaker 3: All the times that she had she.
Speaker 7: Had overdosed and friends that have overdosed and you know,
Speaker 7: they had been she had said that she had, you know,
Speaker 7: the body bag had you know, the cops excuse me,
Speaker 7: the EMTs had gotten the body bag out and we're
Speaker 7: ready to put her in and she was revived with Narkhan.
Speaker 7: Narkhan is the nasal spray that you can carry and
Speaker 7: can save somebody from an opioid addiction, an opioid overdose,
Speaker 7: and I asked her. I said, so do all your
Speaker 7: does everybody carry opioids? Carry narkan? And she said no.
Speaker 7: I was like why, but like, this is a thing
Speaker 7: that you know, could could save you, Like, why doesn't
Speaker 7: everybody just have it? Because they were that was right
Speaker 7: around the time that they were starting to give it
Speaker 7: trip free, you know, and now you can you know,
Speaker 7: anybody could find darkan now and carry it around with them,
Speaker 7: and I carry around with me. I asked her why,
Speaker 7: and she just said, because we're just tired, you know.
Speaker 7: And it was it was sort of like if it happens,
Speaker 7: it happens.
Speaker 3: If we overdose, we overdose.
Speaker 7: And that was probably, you know, in the same way
Speaker 7: that that c c saying, but I have to because
Speaker 7: I'm a drug addict, you know, that started this book.
Speaker 7: That's like her saying we're just tired. Really is the
Speaker 7: thing that that caught me and stuck with me as
Speaker 7: far as from all the interviews that.
Speaker 6: I did, what does this story besides the tragic fate
Speaker 6: of Danielle Lindsey and eighteen others or sixteen others, what
Speaker 6: does this story and what would you want it to
Speaker 6: most demonstrate.
Speaker 3: Most?
Speaker 7: You know, obviously you want and I think we're getting
Speaker 7: there as a society that these are real people and
Speaker 7: they're not just sex workers. And I think I think
Speaker 7: we're getting there. And that's the first part is to
Speaker 7: show that these are real people. The second part then
Speaker 7: is to you know, put more and more resources towards
Speaker 7: the investigations of the crimes. That's that's what I would
Speaker 7: like to see. You know, I would like for Scott
Speaker 7: to be able to get some you know, some you know,
Speaker 7: whether you believe in closure or not, you know, I
Speaker 7: would just like Scott to be able to get some
Speaker 7: answers about his daughter and then obviously the other families.
Speaker 6: You sort of have a call to action, then advise
Speaker 6: people what people can do, can to do that for us?
Speaker 7: Yeah, you know, I think as far as a call
Speaker 7: to action goes, and you know, the call to action
Speaker 7: can be anything from getting getting loud and called, you know,
Speaker 7: finding a case in your area and being that person's advocate.
Speaker 7: You know a lot of people might not even have family,
Speaker 7: or their family has has sort of disowned them. That
Speaker 7: doesn't mean that there there shouldn't be somebody looking into it.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 7: The one thing that I found is that the squeaky
Speaker 7: wheel gets the grease everywhere. If you're you've got to
Speaker 7: be a pain in the ass to get the law
Speaker 7: enforcement to keep looking into your case. Because law enforcem
Speaker 7: they're over taxed too, so they're gonna they're gonna keep
Speaker 7: They're gonna keep going if you keep, you know, asking questions.
Speaker 7: You know, if you stop asking questions, they're not gonna
Speaker 7: you know, they might keep working, but some of them
Speaker 7: are going to move on to that next murder because
Speaker 7: there's there's been so many of them, and we're getting
Speaker 7: more and more murders now and we're solving less and
Speaker 7: less murders. So I think that's one of the big
Speaker 7: things and the big call to actions is that. And
Speaker 7: and you know, I would add to even though I
Speaker 7: don't really talk about it in the book, but just
Speaker 7: you know, obviously, everyone, that person, that person that you
Speaker 7: pass on the street, everybody's going through something and you
Speaker 7: know they're dealing with they're dealing with.
Speaker 3: It however you can.
Speaker 7: And there's there's there is a magic pill out there
Speaker 7: that can get you to forget your troubles for a
Speaker 7: little bit, but it could also kill you.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you say that these people were just trying to
Speaker 6: get medicine. They're not looking for kicks or last No.
Speaker 3: No, they're just trying to feel better. You know.
Speaker 7: They're just trying to get through the night. It's not
Speaker 7: a matter of you know a lot of times when
Speaker 7: you're hearing, oh, a drug overdose, we hear that as
Speaker 7: a society and we think, oh, they were partying and
Speaker 7: that's why this happened. And you know, nine times out
Speaker 7: of ten, that's not the case. This is just what
Speaker 7: they need to survive.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's pain management as you as you're right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and mental health management, you know.
Speaker 7: I mean, the bottom line is is that if you're
Speaker 7: taking you know, medications, I'm on say, I'm on zoloft,
Speaker 7: and zoloft took you know, so long to kick in,
Speaker 7: and I was in such a bad state before you know,
Speaker 7: the zoloft kicked in as I was like trying out
Speaker 7: different medicines because I'd been on prozac for twenty years
Speaker 7: and it finally had kind of lost its juice, you know,
Speaker 7: I remember, and I was I asked somebody, I was
Speaker 7: just like, why can't they just make a pill that
Speaker 7: you know, works fast.
Speaker 3: It's like they do make a pill that works fast.
Speaker 7: It just you know, is incredibly addictive and can destroy everything.
Speaker 3: You know, it's it's for some.
Speaker 7: People, you know, there is a pill out there that
Speaker 7: can at least help them either you know, fall asleep
Speaker 7: or help them just not have to I don't even
Speaker 7: want to say not have to face trauma, but you know,
Speaker 7: just can lessen the trauma a little bit or lessen
Speaker 7: the edge a little bit. And it's you know, they're
Speaker 7: not doing this just a party. And the whole idea
Speaker 7: of overdose, especially now with the fentanyl, it's not like,
Speaker 7: you know, we hear overdose and we hear, oh, they
Speaker 7: took too much, you know, and that comes from the
Speaker 7: overdosing that was happening in the sixties. When you hear
Speaker 7: about you know, Jim Morrison and Jennis Jopolin and Jimi Hendrix,
Speaker 7: it's like, oh, they just partied too much and then
Speaker 7: we lost them.
Speaker 3: This is not the case with these people. Yeah.
Speaker 6: Now, what is the despite your offer to contribute to
Speaker 6: these to the police investigations, what is the status of
Speaker 6: the investigation with Danielle and Lindsey officially.
Speaker 7: Yeah, Danielle and lindsay there was are still open cases,
Speaker 7: you know, and obviously the more the more time that
Speaker 7: goes by, the less that they would be caught.
Speaker 3: But I will say that.
Speaker 7: You know, we just we've just gone through a few
Speaker 7: years now where we've we've been able to get answers
Speaker 7: on some murders that a lot of people thought would
Speaker 7: never be solved or you know, had a hard time
Speaker 7: being solved. You know, Long Ound serial Killer, which is
Speaker 7: a case that I worked on a lot with the
Speaker 7: podcast Unraveled, and I think that is, you know, we
Speaker 7: didn't know if they had DNA or not. It turns
Speaker 7: out the you know, they they they didn't catch him
Speaker 7: with the DNA, They caught him with a with an
Speaker 7: eyewitness and the you know, obviously Golden State Killer that
Speaker 7: was DNA. You know, I think we all knew that
Speaker 7: that was going to be solved at one point or another.
Speaker 7: So I think that, you know, there's always a possibility,
Speaker 7: but it's just a matter of you know, Long Island
Speaker 7: serial Killer was cautious because there was so much pressure
Speaker 7: still on the the organization to solve this thing that
Speaker 7: they put new resources on it and they went back
Speaker 7: through all the old evidence and then found a found
Speaker 7: a tip that's what's got to happen, and that happened
Speaker 7: because people liked the podcast that I was on.
Speaker 3: You know, we got loud.
Speaker 6: So this book, of course, is another attempt to exert
Speaker 6: some pressure. Yeah, or for the call for justice.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 6: I want to thank you very much Billy Jensen for
Speaker 6: coming on and talking about your extraordinary book. Killers Admits Killers,
Speaker 6: Hunting serial Killers, Hiding under the cloak of the opioid epidemic.
Speaker 6: For those people that might want to check out a website,
Speaker 6: do you do any social media? Tell us about the
Speaker 6: Murder Squad podcast as well.
Speaker 3: Well, the Murder Squad podcast is gone. It's over. You know,
Speaker 3: I fucked that up.
Speaker 7: So that was that's you know, if you want to
Speaker 7: find me online, you know, I'm at Billy Jensen at
Speaker 7: various Instagram. You know, I'm not really on Twitter that
Speaker 7: much anymore. Starting to use threads now. I mean, if
Speaker 7: you want to check out one of the podcasts that
Speaker 7: I've done, you check out Unraveled. That is five separate
Speaker 7: investigations that I did with my co host Alexis. So
Speaker 7: that's one of the things that can check out as
Speaker 7: far as podcast goes.
Speaker 6: Well, thank you very much, Billy Jensen. Killers Admits Killers
Speaker 6: Hunting Serial Killers hiding under the cloak of the opioid epidemic.
Speaker 6: Thank you very much for this interview and you have
Speaker 6: a great evening and good night, Thanks Dan, thank you.