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No necessary 21 00:01:00.960 --> 00:01:04.239 que comitted, last terms and condition applying se what secret details. 22 00:01:11.640 --> 00:01:15.079 You are now listening to True Murder the most shocking 23 00:01:15.159 --> 00:01:18.200 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 24 00:01:18.239 --> 00:01:25.519 written about them. Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every 25 00:01:25.599 --> 00:01:29.239 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 26 00:01:29.359 --> 00:01:33.560 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with Your 27 00:01:33.560 --> 00:01:46.599 Host journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good. 28 00:01:46.439 --> 00:01:51.519 Evening, best selling author, co host of the hit podcast 29 00:01:51.560 --> 00:01:55.959 The Murder Squad, and true crime investigative journalist Billy Jensen 30 00:01:56.319 --> 00:02:00.599 goes to Columbus, Ohio, where he examines the unsolved cases 31 00:02:00.640 --> 00:02:04.359 of eighteen dead and missing women whom he suspects were 32 00:02:04.400 --> 00:02:08.120 the victims of serial killers on the loose and operating 33 00:02:08.280 --> 00:02:14.960 under cover of the opioid epidemic in America's heartland. In 34 00:02:15.080 --> 00:02:20.120 Chase Darkness with Me, listeners learned Billy Jensen's journalist origin story, 35 00:02:21.360 --> 00:02:25.400 his struggles, his call to adventure, and his first successes 36 00:02:25.439 --> 00:02:31.280 in solving murders. In Killers admist Killers, listeners will ride 37 00:02:31.319 --> 00:02:34.919 shotgun with Jensen as he takes on serial killers who 38 00:02:34.919 --> 00:02:38.400 are walking among us and planning their next moves in 39 00:02:38.520 --> 00:02:42.439 real time. The facts are not in old police reports 40 00:02:42.439 --> 00:02:47.560 and faded photos. They unfold before our ears. Our story 41 00:02:47.599 --> 00:02:51.800 begins in twenty seventeen, when two young women best friends, 42 00:02:51.879 --> 00:02:55.159 Danielle and Lindsay, go missing within weeks of each other, 43 00:02:55.479 --> 00:03:00.000 and their bodies are found soon thereafter. As Jensen investors 44 00:03:00.080 --> 00:03:04.280 agatest Danielle and Lindsay's cases, he comes across other missing 45 00:03:04.360 --> 00:03:08.960 and murdered women, and before long he uncovers eighteen of them, 46 00:03:09.280 --> 00:03:13.319 all unsolved and no one was talking about it. These 47 00:03:13.319 --> 00:03:16.080 are not women who were raised in the street. They 48 00:03:16.120 --> 00:03:20.120 got hooked on pills, the pills were taken away, they 49 00:03:20.199 --> 00:03:23.240 got hooked on heroin, and when the money was gone, 50 00:03:23.479 --> 00:03:27.080 they had to sell themselves. It all happens very quick. 51 00:03:27.919 --> 00:03:32.520 Through his investigations and the help of experts, Jensen identifies 52 00:03:32.599 --> 00:03:37.960 serial killers in Cleveland and Columbus. Why there, because it's easy. 53 00:03:38.599 --> 00:03:42.520 Sharks go where the swimmers are. Serial killers go where 54 00:03:42.520 --> 00:03:47.000 the easy prey are. Ground zero of the opioid epidemic, 55 00:03:47.800 --> 00:03:52.360 the heart of America. Jensen hunts these predators to bring 56 00:03:52.400 --> 00:03:55.639 peace to the victims suffering families while putting a spotlight 57 00:03:55.960 --> 00:03:58.639 on a system that is leaving hundreds of thousands of 58 00:03:58.680 --> 00:04:02.479 bodies in its wake. The book that we're featuring this 59 00:04:02.560 --> 00:04:07.599 evening is Killers amidst Killers, Hunting serial Killers Hiding under 60 00:04:07.919 --> 00:04:11.759 the Cloak of the Opioid Epidemic with my special guest 61 00:04:12.240 --> 00:04:17.319 journalist and author Billy Jensen. Welcome to the program, and 62 00:04:17.480 --> 00:04:21.800 thank you very much for this interview. Billy Jensen, Thanks 63 00:04:21.839 --> 00:04:25.120 for having me, Dan, thank you so much, and congratulations 64 00:04:25.160 --> 00:04:28.160 on this extraordinary book, Killers amidst Killers. 65 00:04:28.720 --> 00:04:33.160 Thanks, Yeah, I appreciate it. It's been it's been a long, 66 00:04:33.839 --> 00:04:36.519 long journey from start to finish. 67 00:04:36.839 --> 00:04:41.120 As we mentioned in the introduction, you started in Chase 68 00:04:41.199 --> 00:04:45.839 Darkness with me, and people learned about your origin story 69 00:04:46.240 --> 00:04:49.680 and your call to adventure and your first successes in 70 00:04:49.720 --> 00:04:55.560 solving murders. Now you're talking in Killers amidst Killers. Listeners 71 00:04:55.600 --> 00:04:58.720 will ride shotgun with you as you take us on 72 00:04:59.600 --> 00:05:02.959 take on serial killers who were walking amongst us and 73 00:05:03.000 --> 00:05:06.000 planning their next moves in real time. In this book, 74 00:05:06.079 --> 00:05:11.160 you get right to this story Columbus, Ohio twenty seventeen 75 00:05:11.279 --> 00:05:14.800 and Lindsay mccaby. So you start off telling us a 76 00:05:14.800 --> 00:05:18.560 little bit about the outline of her too short life 77 00:05:19.160 --> 00:05:23.240 and her background. So tell us about Lindsay mccaby. 78 00:05:24.000 --> 00:05:27.600 Yeah, Well, you know, the original germ of the story 79 00:05:27.680 --> 00:05:33.199 started when I was I had read a small article 80 00:05:33.519 --> 00:05:36.680 about and it said that two women who were best 81 00:05:36.680 --> 00:05:41.399 friends had gone missing and were murdered in Columbus, Ohio. 82 00:05:42.199 --> 00:05:46.399 And from that small article, I had been working at 83 00:05:46.399 --> 00:05:49.800 a show. It was a Warner Brothers show called Crimewatch 84 00:05:49.879 --> 00:05:53.360 Daily at the time, and I pitched that to my producers, 85 00:05:54.439 --> 00:05:58.160 you know, was able to go down to Columbus, and 86 00:05:58.279 --> 00:06:03.199 while I was at Columbus, I interviewed these people there. 87 00:06:03.199 --> 00:06:07.000 They apparently had lived in a house that was called 88 00:06:07.040 --> 00:06:09.560 the on the Streets. It was called the Home for 89 00:06:09.639 --> 00:06:14.000 Lost Children. It wasn't even a house that was you know, 90 00:06:14.279 --> 00:06:16.800 it wasn't a social services thing or anything. It was 91 00:06:16.839 --> 00:06:19.759 just everybody just kind of crashed at this one elderly 92 00:06:19.839 --> 00:06:23.920 gentleman's house. And I met the third best friend, and 93 00:06:24.000 --> 00:06:25.920 the third best friend whose name was Ceci. 94 00:06:26.680 --> 00:06:31.279 She said that, you know, I was talking to her and. 95 00:06:33.160 --> 00:06:35.360 You know, trying to find out what happened to these 96 00:06:35.360 --> 00:06:40.120 two women because the cases were unsolved. And I asked her, 97 00:06:40.480 --> 00:06:44.959 does it give you pause that, you you know, to 98 00:06:45.040 --> 00:06:48.000 get in a car again, because you know, her friends 99 00:06:48.000 --> 00:06:50.720 were sex workers and Cec was a sex worker, right, 100 00:06:50.800 --> 00:06:53.680 And she said, yeah, but I have to because I'm 101 00:06:53.680 --> 00:06:58.839 a drug addict. And that's really that devastating saying, you know, 102 00:07:00.160 --> 00:07:03.000 sentence is what started me on this journey and really 103 00:07:03.040 --> 00:07:08.199 digging into it. So, you know, looking into Lindsay and 104 00:07:08.319 --> 00:07:13.439 Danielle's backgrounds. You know, Lindsay was a mother of two, 105 00:07:14.000 --> 00:07:16.360 you know, and both of these these women were mother 106 00:07:16.439 --> 00:07:17.160 of two children. 107 00:07:17.240 --> 00:07:18.199 She was a mother of two. 108 00:07:18.800 --> 00:07:22.920 She had, like so many of the women in Columbus, 109 00:07:23.639 --> 00:07:29.040 had gotten addicted to opioids and needed to get money 110 00:07:29.160 --> 00:07:32.079 in order to fulfill the habit. She started working on 111 00:07:32.079 --> 00:07:35.639 the street. And these were when we talk about sex workers. 112 00:07:35.639 --> 00:07:38.120 Obviously there's a lot of different types of sex workers, 113 00:07:38.600 --> 00:07:43.639 these were women who walk the streets of South Columbus. 114 00:07:44.120 --> 00:07:50.680 So talking with the family and unraveling the family's journey 115 00:07:50.720 --> 00:07:54.199 throughout this entire thing was incredibly heartbreaking, and I said, 116 00:07:54.240 --> 00:07:56.319 there's got to be a story here. So then it 117 00:07:56.439 --> 00:07:57.560 just kept on going from there. 118 00:07:58.639 --> 00:08:02.519 You talk about Lindsay and her brother Stacy, and her 119 00:08:02.560 --> 00:08:08.600 sister Jenny, and talked to her mother Sharon and father Gordon. 120 00:08:09.639 --> 00:08:13.319 Now let's talk about you. You talk about the pain 121 00:08:13.399 --> 00:08:17.600 pills being the origin of everybody's problem in this story. 122 00:08:18.600 --> 00:08:22.279 Tell us where she got her start. Lindsay and before 123 00:08:22.279 --> 00:08:26.360 we talk about the railroad crossing in rural Ohio and 124 00:08:26.399 --> 00:08:28.439 the bus full of children. 125 00:08:28.959 --> 00:08:31.600 Right, she had started, you know, dating. 126 00:08:32.120 --> 00:08:35.240 You know, one of the things that you notice in 127 00:08:35.279 --> 00:08:40.320 this story is that almost everyone's origin story starts around 128 00:08:40.320 --> 00:08:42.759 a guy. You know, a guy had she was dating 129 00:08:42.799 --> 00:08:45.399 somebody of the guy had given her these pills and 130 00:08:45.480 --> 00:08:49.440 she she just got hooked on them because they are 131 00:08:49.480 --> 00:08:53.919 incredibly addictive, you know, That's what you know, You'll see 132 00:08:53.960 --> 00:08:56.279 a thread throughout the book that often it's a guy 133 00:08:56.360 --> 00:08:59.240 that introduces these pills to these women. 134 00:09:00.200 --> 00:09:04.000 What was Jenny's state despite her sister Lindsay's. 135 00:09:05.320 --> 00:09:09.840 So after Lindsay was murdered, Jenny kind of got on 136 00:09:09.879 --> 00:09:12.440 the case and was trying to She had a notebook 137 00:09:12.480 --> 00:09:15.000 and she was trying to put clues together and trying 138 00:09:15.000 --> 00:09:17.399 to figure out who did this. And then while she 139 00:09:17.519 --> 00:09:22.559 was doing that, sadly, Jenny overdosed from heroin and she 140 00:09:22.600 --> 00:09:23.159 passed away. 141 00:09:24.679 --> 00:09:27.639 Now, also you look at this problem of of course 142 00:09:27.679 --> 00:09:33.360 people beginning their addiction starting off with doctors and their 143 00:09:33.399 --> 00:09:40.519 prescription and prescribing pain pills for supposedly legitimate ailments. But 144 00:09:40.600 --> 00:09:45.120 you also cite what happened with this oxycodone and this 145 00:09:45.200 --> 00:09:49.279 opioid problem in the United States, and what was the 146 00:09:49.399 --> 00:09:54.440 reaction by authorities and as a result, what were addicts 147 00:09:55.159 --> 00:09:55.720 left to do? 148 00:09:56.480 --> 00:09:56.799 Right? 149 00:09:58.000 --> 00:10:01.080 You know, And you know, this book's started in twenty 150 00:10:01.240 --> 00:10:04.759 sixteen when I started, you know, working on it, and 151 00:10:05.120 --> 00:10:09.039 or twenty seventeen, so it's you know, the landscape has 152 00:10:09.080 --> 00:10:13.240 even changed even more. But you know, we know that. 153 00:10:13.320 --> 00:10:20.039 The the opioids, which started with with oxy and obviously 154 00:10:20.039 --> 00:10:22.279 you had vicot in as well, there was a lot 155 00:10:22.320 --> 00:10:23.840 of prescriptions being written. 156 00:10:23.840 --> 00:10:25.039 There was a lot of pill doctors. 157 00:10:25.039 --> 00:10:27.440 There was a lot of people going down to these 158 00:10:27.480 --> 00:10:30.320 pill mills, you know, people down and up. You know, 159 00:10:30.480 --> 00:10:33.679 I had talked to some people about in the story 160 00:10:33.879 --> 00:10:35.639 going to Florida. There was a lot of stuff in 161 00:10:35.639 --> 00:10:38.519 Florida and then making the run from Florida getting the pills, 162 00:10:38.799 --> 00:10:42.080 driving them back up to Ohio. And you know, what 163 00:10:42.120 --> 00:10:47.039 we're seeing now is that fentanyl has completely taken over, 164 00:10:47.279 --> 00:10:51.039 taken over everything, right, just because it's so much cheaper, 165 00:10:51.399 --> 00:10:54.159 and it's cheaper on the streets. It's cheaper for everyone 166 00:10:54.240 --> 00:10:56.679 because it's so it's synthetic. You don't need the op 167 00:10:57.080 --> 00:10:59.440 you don't need a poppy for it, you know, that's 168 00:10:59.480 --> 00:11:03.519 where we're at right now. While before when you would 169 00:11:03.519 --> 00:11:08.759 talk about overdoses, you would talk about first it was heroin. 170 00:11:08.840 --> 00:11:13.039 Then people were overdosing on maybe oxy or something like that, 171 00:11:13.200 --> 00:11:16.440 or they went from oxy into heroin right because the 172 00:11:16.440 --> 00:11:20.720 oxy had dried up. But now it's all fentanyl. You know, 173 00:11:20.799 --> 00:11:22.879 a lot of the deaths that we're seeing right now 174 00:11:22.919 --> 00:11:26.840 with fentanyl are poisonings. You know, a lot of times, 175 00:11:26.960 --> 00:11:29.320 you know, just because there's so many people that are 176 00:11:29.399 --> 00:11:31.440 taking of you know, somebody might give them and say 177 00:11:31.440 --> 00:11:33.080 it's a vicain, but it's a vicad and they bought 178 00:11:33.080 --> 00:11:35.320 on the street and it has fentanyl in it and 179 00:11:35.720 --> 00:11:37.720 it was made in somebody's basement, and then they die. 180 00:11:37.840 --> 00:11:40.200 So that's where we're at right now, and it's even 181 00:11:40.279 --> 00:11:43.559 more dangerous than what you're seeing in the book. 182 00:11:45.200 --> 00:11:50.080 Now you are not just talking about addiction in this book, obviously, 183 00:11:50.080 --> 00:11:55.360 you're talking about murder. And in twenty seventeen you write 184 00:11:55.360 --> 00:11:59.559 about a railroad crossing in rural Ohio. A bus full 185 00:11:59.600 --> 00:12:01.799 of chill then pulls up to a railroad crossing and 186 00:12:01.840 --> 00:12:06.720 the driver sees something in the field. What does he see? 187 00:12:07.480 --> 00:12:11.519 What happens a month later, pretty close to the same location. 188 00:12:12.480 --> 00:12:15.879 Yeah, so a I mean, imagine you're a kid on 189 00:12:15.919 --> 00:12:19.480 a bus going to school. You hit a railroad crossing 190 00:12:19.519 --> 00:12:23.320 and there's really there's nothing around this railroad crossing. This 191 00:12:23.399 --> 00:12:25.600 is this is really it's a it's a railroad right 192 00:12:25.639 --> 00:12:28.320 in the middle of a bunch of fields and you 193 00:12:28.399 --> 00:12:31.159 look over and then in a in a clearing. 194 00:12:30.840 --> 00:12:33.720 Just a few miles off, a few feet. 195 00:12:33.480 --> 00:12:37.000 Off the road is a body and it's a naked 196 00:12:37.000 --> 00:12:41.200 body and she had been brutally murdered. And that was 197 00:12:41.240 --> 00:12:45.360 the body of Lindsay mccabee. From there, you know, just 198 00:12:46.200 --> 00:12:49.240 a few miles away, Danielle's body was found and her 199 00:12:49.480 --> 00:12:53.240 her body was was more hidden. Her body was sort 200 00:12:53.240 --> 00:12:56.799 of probably about half mile or a quarter mile into 201 00:12:57.039 --> 00:13:00.679 you know, away from the road, behind a field, you know, 202 00:13:01.120 --> 00:13:04.480 the planter. The plantings had all been done for the season, 203 00:13:04.559 --> 00:13:08.279 they had already been harvested. So that's where they both 204 00:13:08.320 --> 00:13:10.360 were found, very close to each other. And they didn't 205 00:13:10.399 --> 00:13:13.720 you know, they started in in the urban area, and 206 00:13:13.720 --> 00:13:16.440 that's where where they were picked up or where we 207 00:13:16.519 --> 00:13:17.240 still don't. 208 00:13:17.000 --> 00:13:19.200 Know what happened. That's where they were picked up, right. 209 00:13:19.320 --> 00:13:23.879 But they they you know, went out there and that's 210 00:13:23.960 --> 00:13:28.200 where they met their end. And you know, there's only 211 00:13:28.240 --> 00:13:31.759 so much you can do when you know, I wanted 212 00:13:31.759 --> 00:13:33.639 to go to those crime scenes, so you know, you 213 00:13:33.720 --> 00:13:37.879 meet the family, the families in Columbus, and then I 214 00:13:37.960 --> 00:13:41.759 drove out with the families actually and the police to 215 00:13:41.879 --> 00:13:45.000 the crime scenes. And you know, you really see particularly 216 00:13:45.039 --> 00:13:48.519 with where Daniels Danielle's body was found. 217 00:13:48.480 --> 00:13:48.759 Is that. 218 00:13:50.559 --> 00:13:53.879 You know, people were some people were talking that, oh, 219 00:13:53.919 --> 00:13:56.000 that has to be a trucker. You know, you hear 220 00:13:56.039 --> 00:13:59.000 a lot about right there was this highway serial killer 221 00:13:59.039 --> 00:14:02.639 initiative that was had been going on that we talked 222 00:14:02.679 --> 00:14:06.960 about how many people are found near highways and a 223 00:14:07.000 --> 00:14:09.200 lot of trucker killers. And there are trucker killers. That's 224 00:14:10.120 --> 00:14:12.919 truck or serial killers is a thing. You know, you 225 00:14:12.960 --> 00:14:15.440 pick up a woman from a truck stop who is 226 00:14:15.440 --> 00:14:18.799 a sex worker, you drive them to another truck stop, 227 00:14:19.679 --> 00:14:20.759 nobody reports them. 228 00:14:20.600 --> 00:14:22.120 Missing, and then they. 229 00:14:23.919 --> 00:14:27.679 Might get killed along the way and nobody is you know, 230 00:14:28.320 --> 00:14:32.759 no alarm bells are wrung out for them. Where Danielle's 231 00:14:32.799 --> 00:14:34.759 body was found, you couldn't get a truck back there 232 00:14:34.799 --> 00:14:36.879 and somebody would have had to carry her back there. 233 00:14:36.960 --> 00:14:42.840 So it really looking at these the circumstances, I surmised 234 00:14:42.879 --> 00:14:45.600 that that this had to be somebody local. This had 235 00:14:45.639 --> 00:14:49.600 to be somebody that knows where these two areas are 236 00:14:49.919 --> 00:14:52.639 and knew this would be a good place to deposit 237 00:14:52.679 --> 00:14:53.720 a body. 238 00:14:54.720 --> 00:14:59.960 You right, that naked bodies. Naked body of Lindsey had 239 00:15:00.159 --> 00:15:03.440 was bludgeoned, her throat was slit, and she'd been missing 240 00:15:03.480 --> 00:15:05.799 forty eight hours and last seen, like you say, in 241 00:15:06.240 --> 00:15:11.879 South Columbus. And a month later, Danielle Green, who'd been 242 00:15:11.879 --> 00:15:15.679 missing thirty days, she was found. They said eighty five 243 00:15:15.720 --> 00:15:19.240 percent skeletonized. What we have to mention is, I think 244 00:15:19.399 --> 00:15:22.519 is that they were best friends. They lived together. Yeah, 245 00:15:23.320 --> 00:15:28.919 and CCI also so there's there's many people that knew 246 00:15:29.000 --> 00:15:32.960 of Danielle and of Lindsay and you got to speak 247 00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:36.399 with them. So also tell us a little bit about 248 00:15:36.519 --> 00:15:40.679 as you mentioned early twenty fifteen, six women in if 249 00:15:40.679 --> 00:15:46.320 I pronounced this incorrectly, Chillicothe, Ohio. And you say, a 250 00:15:46.399 --> 00:15:50.639 much different paying attention by people in the newspapers and 251 00:15:50.720 --> 00:15:53.440 the media because you said there were ideal victims. 252 00:15:55.120 --> 00:15:58.279 Yes, you know, you know the stories of Danielle Lindsay 253 00:15:58.320 --> 00:16:02.919 did not get any national press. But Chilicothy did, and 254 00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:06.799 the you know, somebody had had started putting it together 255 00:16:06.840 --> 00:16:09.879 that win, there's there's there's some women here. You know, 256 00:16:09.919 --> 00:16:14.039 why are there so many missing and murdered women in Chilicothe? 257 00:16:14.200 --> 00:16:16.279 It looks like the women in child So that that 258 00:16:16.440 --> 00:16:22.120 became a national story, you know. And there was also 259 00:16:23.320 --> 00:16:25.600 one of the things that happened is the case that 260 00:16:25.639 --> 00:16:30.519 I had had covered as well in West Virginia. A 261 00:16:30.600 --> 00:16:35.000 woman had murdered a man who was she was a 262 00:16:35.039 --> 00:16:38.080 sex worker. A man had come over. She murdered the 263 00:16:38.120 --> 00:16:42.799 man or the band attacked her, and she defended herself 264 00:16:42.919 --> 00:16:45.159 and then killed her. A guy's name is Neil Falls. 265 00:16:45.759 --> 00:16:50.919 And inside of Neil Falls's car was a kill kit, 266 00:16:51.720 --> 00:16:53.879 which is, you know, everything that you would need to 267 00:16:54.720 --> 00:16:58.960 abduct and murder somebody. And you know, this courageous young 268 00:16:59.000 --> 00:17:00.840 woman was able to fight him off. 269 00:17:01.480 --> 00:17:02.559 Because of that. 270 00:17:02.759 --> 00:17:05.400 They were thinking, well, who could this person have killed? 271 00:17:06.079 --> 00:17:09.079 You know, they looked at Chillicothe because that story had 272 00:17:09.200 --> 00:17:14.559 just come out recently about those victims, and it was 273 00:17:15.440 --> 00:17:21.599 basically it was four women that were deceased, Tamika, Shasta, Timberly, 274 00:17:22.279 --> 00:17:26.359 and Tiffany, and then there was two women that had 275 00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:31.759 been missing, which was wanted Charlotte, and they you know, 276 00:17:31.839 --> 00:17:33.559 kind of put two and two together and said, well, 277 00:17:34.039 --> 00:17:38.480 this Neil Falls guy, maybe he was related to these murders. 278 00:17:38.519 --> 00:17:42.039 So that got a lot of play. It turns out that, 279 00:17:42.359 --> 00:17:45.640 you know, nothing was ever connected between Neil Falls and 280 00:17:45.680 --> 00:17:49.640 these women in Chillicothe, but there was a small spotlight 281 00:17:49.720 --> 00:17:54.000 on Chillicothe and Ohio for just a small bit of time. 282 00:17:55.759 --> 00:18:00.359 You go to South Columbus for this investigation, and you 283 00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:04.759 hook up with Scott Green, Danielle's father, and they take 284 00:18:04.799 --> 00:18:09.920 you to some, as you write, some scary, sketchy places, 285 00:18:10.039 --> 00:18:13.200 and you talk to a guy named Roscoe, tell us 286 00:18:13.240 --> 00:18:16.680 about some of the places you see and the things 287 00:18:16.680 --> 00:18:20.799 you learn visiting. And the name that comes up right 288 00:18:20.839 --> 00:18:22.359 away when you're down there. 289 00:18:22.920 --> 00:18:27.039 Yeah, so you know, talking with Roscoe, and you know, 290 00:18:27.160 --> 00:18:30.920 Roscoe is the elderly gentleman who ran the home for 291 00:18:31.000 --> 00:18:34.680 lost children. He had lost his wife and he had, 292 00:18:35.079 --> 00:18:38.519 you know, just opened his house to anybody who wanted 293 00:18:38.559 --> 00:18:40.880 to stay there. So when we got out of the car, 294 00:18:41.599 --> 00:18:44.559 you know, and I had had armed security with me. 295 00:18:44.920 --> 00:18:46.799 That was one of the things that they always wanted 296 00:18:46.839 --> 00:18:48.000 you to do if you were going to be in 297 00:18:48.960 --> 00:18:51.480 you know, potentially going at Harm's Way. And it was 298 00:18:51.519 --> 00:18:55.640 interesting because, you know, when we drove up, there was 299 00:18:56.039 --> 00:18:59.599 a lot of people just on the street, and we 300 00:18:59.720 --> 00:19:02.680 drove up, and then they thought we were cops, so 301 00:19:02.720 --> 00:19:06.319 everybody scattered. And then once they saw that it was 302 00:19:06.559 --> 00:19:10.359 somebody with a film crew, everybody came back out. You know, 303 00:19:10.400 --> 00:19:13.319 it was about probably like thirty people out on the street. 304 00:19:13.599 --> 00:19:15.240 You know, they didn't quite know why we were there. 305 00:19:15.240 --> 00:19:18.599 And then we started talking and yeah, the name that 306 00:19:18.680 --> 00:19:24.960 had had come out is as far as who might 307 00:19:24.960 --> 00:19:28.680 have done this to the two women, was the name 308 00:19:28.720 --> 00:19:29.240 white Boy. 309 00:19:29.880 --> 00:19:34.240 That was the first possible suspect. And white Boy was 310 00:19:35.279 --> 00:19:37.240 you know, was he a boyfriend, was he a pimp? 311 00:19:38.839 --> 00:19:39.079 You know? 312 00:19:39.200 --> 00:19:41.400 But White Boy had been in you know, just talking 313 00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:44.119 with the cops. He was in the wind, he had 314 00:19:44.200 --> 00:19:44.799 gone missing. 315 00:19:46.839 --> 00:19:50.559 You talk about white Boy, but before we go too 316 00:19:50.640 --> 00:19:53.920 much further, is there a significance or tell us the 317 00:19:53.960 --> 00:19:56.039 significance of the term white boy. 318 00:19:57.640 --> 00:20:00.400 Yeah, you know, it turns out he was a a 319 00:20:00.480 --> 00:20:02.079 light skinned black guy. 320 00:20:02.519 --> 00:20:02.920 That's it. 321 00:20:04.079 --> 00:20:08.440 When you originally in your in your original work, you 322 00:20:08.559 --> 00:20:14.440 utilized Facebook pages very effectively, and you your hope with 323 00:20:14.559 --> 00:20:20.440 the system that you use to identify Marque Gains attacker, 324 00:20:20.960 --> 00:20:24.759 which helped solve other murders. It might be able to 325 00:20:25.160 --> 00:20:28.119 aid in the investigation of who killed Danielle and Lindsay. 326 00:20:28.480 --> 00:20:32.000 So tell us about this strategy and this initiative. 327 00:20:32.720 --> 00:20:33.519 Yeah, with the. 328 00:20:33.400 --> 00:20:37.720 Marcus Gains case, I had seen a murder in a 329 00:20:37.759 --> 00:20:41.599 man had been attacked on the street and there was 330 00:20:41.720 --> 00:20:47.200 really good video of the of the perpetrator and it 331 00:20:47.279 --> 00:20:49.200 still had been unsolved, and it had been months and 332 00:20:49.240 --> 00:20:52.640 months and months, and I thought to myself, I know 333 00:20:52.759 --> 00:20:54.359 how to use social media. I know how to get 334 00:20:54.359 --> 00:20:57.839 people's attention online. Let me see if I could catch 335 00:20:57.880 --> 00:21:00.279 this guy. I was able to you know, sort of 336 00:21:00.359 --> 00:21:03.720 a Twitter page, a Facebook page and Instagram page just 337 00:21:03.759 --> 00:21:07.480 for that particular crime. And I was able to, you know, 338 00:21:07.559 --> 00:21:11.319 through social media and through crowd, you know, using the crowd, 339 00:21:11.599 --> 00:21:14.200 I was able to identify the perpetrator and he was arrested. 340 00:21:14.599 --> 00:21:18.599 So from there I started using that technique for other 341 00:21:18.599 --> 00:21:21.400 people that might might have been found who had been 342 00:21:21.480 --> 00:21:27.200 murdered and their killer was caught on video that you know, 343 00:21:27.559 --> 00:21:30.759 usually the video wasn't clear, but I might be able 344 00:21:30.799 --> 00:21:35.039 to using GEO targeted advertising and buying advertising in these areas, 345 00:21:37.039 --> 00:21:40.039 can find somebody who might recognize the person and then 346 00:21:40.079 --> 00:21:41.839 get a name and then give the name to the police. 347 00:21:42.440 --> 00:21:44.480 You know, I started doing that and had about fifty 348 00:21:44.519 --> 00:21:47.640 cases running at one point or another and was able 349 00:21:47.680 --> 00:21:51.480 to get you know, there was probably five that I 350 00:21:51.920 --> 00:21:54.960 that I really did by myself and was able to 351 00:21:54.960 --> 00:21:57.039 get the name that the police didn't have, and then 352 00:21:57.079 --> 00:21:59.160 I helped them out with little, you know, other things 353 00:21:59.160 --> 00:22:02.720 for the other five that was it was one of 354 00:22:02.519 --> 00:22:06.160 the you know, interesting things that happened with it. And 355 00:22:06.160 --> 00:22:08.519 that's what I talk about in the first book, Chase 356 00:22:08.559 --> 00:22:12.400 Darkness with Me, is that it was you know, it 357 00:22:12.480 --> 00:22:16.200 was a good technique and it was something that you know, 358 00:22:16.319 --> 00:22:19.920 using something that everybody was using at the time, which 359 00:22:19.920 --> 00:22:23.680 is Facebook, which is definitely the usage, particularly around young people, 360 00:22:23.880 --> 00:22:27.200 has really gone down with Facebook. But you know, back 361 00:22:27.200 --> 00:22:30.480 then when I was doing it in twenty sixteen, seventeen eighteen, 362 00:22:31.279 --> 00:22:32.319 it really was working. 363 00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:36.400 You talk to a lot of people in this investigation 364 00:22:37.359 --> 00:22:41.279 and you talk about the work of Thomas Hargrove about 365 00:22:41.319 --> 00:22:45.039 serial killer clusters and the Moneyball of Murder. Can you 366 00:22:45.039 --> 00:22:48.240 tell us about serial killer clusters and that analysis. 367 00:22:48.519 --> 00:22:51.920 Yeah, So Tom Hargrove is a journalist who started noticing 368 00:22:52.000 --> 00:22:59.440 patterns of, you know, murders in areas that had significant 369 00:22:59.799 --> 00:23:04.079 similarities and maybe these could draw the conclusion that these 370 00:23:04.079 --> 00:23:08.720 are serial murders. So he created this database, the Murder 371 00:23:08.720 --> 00:23:12.160 Accountability Project MAP, and you can go on there right 372 00:23:12.200 --> 00:23:15.119 now and you can do a search and try to find, 373 00:23:15.119 --> 00:23:17.920 you know, everybody that had been you know, how many 374 00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:22.839 murders were of young women that were stabbed in a 375 00:23:22.839 --> 00:23:26.119 certain location. And then you know, if you find enough 376 00:23:26.759 --> 00:23:29.400 of the same some of the people that were killed 377 00:23:29.440 --> 00:23:32.279 under the same circumstances, this very well might be a 378 00:23:32.359 --> 00:23:35.039 murder cluster. And it's something that you need to look into. 379 00:23:35.160 --> 00:23:39.200 So I got to spend some time with Tom. The 380 00:23:39.319 --> 00:23:42.799 data is only as good and that map system is 381 00:23:42.839 --> 00:23:45.680 only as good as the data that is sent to him, 382 00:23:46.240 --> 00:23:49.440 and so I had certain murders that he didn't have, 383 00:23:49.920 --> 00:23:54.640 and then looking through his case his database, and the 384 00:23:54.720 --> 00:23:58.680 database doesn't have the names. The database just has the 385 00:23:59.680 --> 00:24:01.599 actual of the murder. 386 00:24:01.359 --> 00:24:04.279 Right, so you know, one thing that does have is 387 00:24:04.279 --> 00:24:04.759 the age. 388 00:24:04.799 --> 00:24:07.079 So if you have a twenty five year old woman 389 00:24:07.119 --> 00:24:10.519 who was stabbed and you know the year, you'd have 390 00:24:10.599 --> 00:24:12.720 to just go and google it and then try and 391 00:24:12.799 --> 00:24:15.640 figure out who that was, and which is easier said 392 00:24:15.640 --> 00:24:17.759 than done when you're dealing with a city. But when 393 00:24:17.799 --> 00:24:20.400 you're dealing with, you know, a smaller city like Columbus, 394 00:24:20.519 --> 00:24:22.480 where you were able to figure out who the people 395 00:24:22.519 --> 00:24:25.880 were and that opened up that really opened up the Wow, 396 00:24:26.160 --> 00:24:27.519 there's definitely an issue here. 397 00:24:29.240 --> 00:24:33.240 You and Tom Hargrove, for at least you both talk 398 00:24:33.279 --> 00:24:38.279 about clearance rates and why clearance rates are important to 399 00:24:38.400 --> 00:24:39.200 this story. 400 00:24:39.839 --> 00:24:45.160 Yes, you know clearance rates in the in nineteen sixty 401 00:24:45.279 --> 00:24:48.640