1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:27,359 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. 10 00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:31,199 Speaker 4: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, 11 00:00:31,359 --> 00:00:34,719 as well as the social media manager and co administrator 12 00:00:34,799 --> 00:00:37,799 for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 13 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:39,079 in crime, Bill Thomas. 14 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:43,240 Speaker 3: Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. 15 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 2: I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm Bill Thomas. 16 00:00:46,359 --> 00:00:48,399 Speaker 3: We want to start top of the pod today by 17 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:51,479 offering a retraction on a statement that we made and 18 00:00:51,679 --> 00:00:55,000 an apology to our colleagues at the Murder Sheet. 19 00:00:55,600 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 2: Last Monday, which would have been December thirtieth, we ran 20 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:04,959 an episode where we discussed the Delphi case in Indiana. 21 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:08,959 That's the case that involves the murder of Liberty German 22 00:01:09,079 --> 00:01:12,000 and Abigail Williams, the two young girls that were murdered 23 00:01:12,599 --> 00:01:17,120 in that podcast. I made a misstatement attributing something to 24 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:20,680 the Murder Sheet podcast which was not accurate, and I 25 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:25,079 want to offer a heartfelt apology. This is my mistake, 26 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:29,560 not Christen's. What we did was we took down the 27 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:33,920 podcast with the error, corrected it and put the podcast 28 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:38,000 back up. But some people heard my error and we 29 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:42,159 want to apologize for that, and I owe Kristen, my 30 00:01:42,239 --> 00:01:46,519 podcast partner, and apology, the team at the Murder Sheet, 31 00:01:46,719 --> 00:01:51,200 and apology and our listeners for failing to fact check something. 32 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:57,480 We are sincerely sorry for my mistake and apologies all around. 33 00:01:57,599 --> 00:01:58,640 It won't happen again. 34 00:02:00,079 --> 00:02:02,239 Speaker 3: When I thank our listeners for making sure that they 35 00:02:02,319 --> 00:02:05,079 let us know that had happened and for making sure 36 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:07,680 that they hold us accountable. We want to make sure 37 00:02:07,719 --> 00:02:10,479 that our podcast is up to ethical standards as always, 38 00:02:10,479 --> 00:02:13,319 so thank you to everybody for listening, for making sure 39 00:02:13,319 --> 00:02:15,319 that we understand when we've made a mistake, and for 40 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:17,840 making sure that we are accountable for that. We appreciate 41 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:18,599 you very much. 42 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:22,879 Speaker 2: With that said, I think Happy New Year is the 43 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:26,479 next order of business. This is our first podcast of 44 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:27,560 twenty twenty five. 45 00:02:28,479 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, it is, And I can't believe that we're already 46 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:36,159 a quarter of a century in two with the twenty 47 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:39,120 first century. That I realized that the other day, and 48 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:40,199 that kind of freaked me out. 49 00:02:40,479 --> 00:02:41,639 Speaker 2: I thought you were going to say we were a 50 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:43,759 quarter of a century into podcast again. I was like, 51 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:45,439 wait a minute, it hasn't been that long. 52 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:49,240 Speaker 3: It feels that long sometimes. 53 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:51,919 Speaker 2: Especially today when I'm busy wiping egg off my face. 54 00:02:52,759 --> 00:02:56,159 Speaker 3: When we launched this podcast, it will be January sixth, 55 00:02:56,280 --> 00:03:01,039 and right around this time last year, unknowingly, we were 56 00:03:01,039 --> 00:03:03,439 only a couple of days away from the biggest break 57 00:03:03,439 --> 00:03:07,159 in the Colonial Parkway murders case. Yet on January eighth 58 00:03:07,199 --> 00:03:10,039 of last year, the FBI and the Virginia State Police, 59 00:03:10,039 --> 00:03:13,400 how they joined press conference in which they announced Alan 60 00:03:13,599 --> 00:03:18,120 Wade Wilmer Senior was responsible and tied via DNA to 61 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:21,639 the murders of Robin Edwards and David Noblin. And from 62 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:25,560 that point forward until now, nothing has been the same 63 00:03:25,759 --> 00:03:29,000 for this case or for us, And so we wanted 64 00:03:29,039 --> 00:03:31,879 to take a minute here as we approached that one 65 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:36,639 year anniversary, do a year in review and also talk 66 00:03:36,719 --> 00:03:40,159 about how this break in the case has affected us, 67 00:03:40,439 --> 00:03:42,919 both as a podcast and as people who are invested 68 00:03:42,919 --> 00:03:45,960 in this case in the years since Boy, last year 69 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:47,039 was a year, wasn't it, Bill? 70 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:48,199 Speaker 5: It sure was. 71 00:03:48,599 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 2: That January eighth press conference also featured the Hampton, Virginia 72 00:03:54,639 --> 00:03:59,319 Police Department and also included an announcement that Alan Wade Wilmer, 73 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:03,680 who was a waterman from Lancaster County, Virginia, who had 74 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:07,120 spent an extensive amount of time in the Tidewater area 75 00:04:07,159 --> 00:04:09,879 that is where the Colonial Parkway murders took place, that 76 00:04:10,039 --> 00:04:13,960 Alan Wade Wilmer, Senior, was also responsible for the murder 77 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:19,519 of Teresa Lynn Howell, who was murdered in nineteen eighty nine. Now, 78 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:23,120 her name was not one we were familiar with. We 79 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:26,800 had heard from sources inside the investigation as far back 80 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:32,519 as October twenty twenty three that this announcement was coming, 81 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:35,360 so we knew the name of the suspect, we knew 82 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:39,720 who the victims were. When the announcement was made January eighth, 83 00:04:39,759 --> 00:04:44,120 twenty twenty four, this was all information, much of which 84 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:47,879 we had already heard about but obviously had not publicly 85 00:04:47,959 --> 00:04:49,439 commented on. 86 00:04:49,439 --> 00:04:50,759 Speaker 5: One of the things we found very. 87 00:04:50,639 --> 00:04:55,199 Speaker 2: Odd about the January eighth press conference was that the FBI, 88 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:58,360 Virginia State Police, and to a lesser extent, the Hampton 89 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:01,600 Police Department seemed to be going way out of their 90 00:05:01,639 --> 00:05:06,000 way not to link Robin Edwards and David Nobling's murder 91 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:10,000 into the Colonial Parkway murders, which we could not understand. 92 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:12,680 They were suddenly referring to them as the Isle of 93 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:14,920 White murders, which no one has ever called them. 94 00:05:14,959 --> 00:05:15,040 Speaker 3: That. 95 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:20,959 Speaker 2: It wasn't until we, and by we, I mean Kristen Bill, Blaine, 96 00:05:20,959 --> 00:05:28,120 Pardo Wavy, reporter Andy Fox and others publicly called them out. 97 00:05:28,399 --> 00:05:30,560 And that is the FBI and the Virginia State Police 98 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:36,480 specifically for failing to properly identify the Robin Edwards David 99 00:05:36,519 --> 00:05:39,920 Nobling cases being part of the Colonial Parkway murders. And then, 100 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:44,360 perhaps just as importantly, they never said that Alan Wade 101 00:05:44,439 --> 00:05:49,319 Wilmer Senior had been suspect number one in the disappearance 102 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:52,519 of Keith Collin. Cassandra Haley, I felt. 103 00:05:52,319 --> 00:05:55,319 Speaker 3: Like that was a bombshell for the ages in this case. 104 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:59,439 It was one of those things that when you heard it, 105 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:03,199 when I heard it, it rocked me back on my heels. 106 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:07,839 As someone who has been invested in this case for 107 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:10,120 a number of years now, and I was trying to 108 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:12,279 do the math. Bill, I think you and I have 109 00:06:12,399 --> 00:06:16,079 been involved in advocacy on this case since twenty fifteen, 110 00:06:16,199 --> 00:06:20,879 so that means ten years now. Oh God, I know, right, 111 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:23,600 ten years now. I've been invested in this case because 112 00:06:23,639 --> 00:06:26,680 I joined forces with you right before the thirtieth anniversary, 113 00:06:27,199 --> 00:06:29,759 and now it's thirty eight years. So I think this 114 00:06:29,879 --> 00:06:33,360 makes year ten for us as a partnership. Of all 115 00:06:33,439 --> 00:06:36,839 of the many avenues that we'd explored over the years, 116 00:06:37,319 --> 00:06:40,759 is it Fred Atwell, is it Ron Little? Is it 117 00:06:40,959 --> 00:06:44,680 somebody unrelated to that. I had never heard or guessed 118 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:47,360 the name Alan Wade Wilmer Senior, and I hadn't given 119 00:06:47,519 --> 00:06:52,519 a ton of credence to the waterman theory. But then 120 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:55,839 to learn that this guy, Alan Wade Wilmer Senior, was 121 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:59,800 responsible for not only Robin and David, but another individual 122 00:06:59,839 --> 00:07:03,000 that we had never heard of, and then potentially Keith 123 00:07:03,079 --> 00:07:06,839 Colin Sandy Haley, that knocked me back a couple of steps. 124 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:09,839 It was really not anything that I had expected. 125 00:07:10,439 --> 00:07:12,519 Speaker 2: One of the things that really struck me at the 126 00:07:12,639 --> 00:07:17,160 time and still resonates, is that my father Joe Thomas, 127 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:21,199 who passed away several years ago, was our family's liaison 128 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:24,879 to the FBI. Now, remember, Kathy Thomas and Rebecca Deowski 129 00:07:24,879 --> 00:07:27,399 are the first two victims, as we all know. Remember, 130 00:07:27,519 --> 00:07:31,800 for the first year, the other murders have not taken place. 131 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:36,480 It's not until a year after Kathy and Becky are killed. 132 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:40,160 They're killed in October nineteen eighty six. September nineteen eighty 133 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:43,160 seven is when Robin Edwards and David Knobling are killed. 134 00:07:43,519 --> 00:07:47,439 That case, thankfully, is now solved. One of the things 135 00:07:47,439 --> 00:07:51,519 that really stuck out for me was my father told 136 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:56,160 me the Waterman story, or as we've sometimes called it, 137 00:07:56,199 --> 00:08:01,439 the driveway story, repeatedly. And now now I can't tell you. 138 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:03,920 It's been so long. I can't tell you if this 139 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:08,519 was before or after Robin and David were killed in 140 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:12,079 September nineteen eighty seven. And I can't tell you for 141 00:08:12,199 --> 00:08:16,360 sure if it was before or after. Keith Collin. Cassandra 142 00:08:16,399 --> 00:08:20,399 Haley went missing in April nineteen eighty eight, somewhere along 143 00:08:20,439 --> 00:08:24,519 those lines, but well before Anna, Maria Phelps, and Daniel 144 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:29,079 Lowerd disappear in Incident number four, which is September nineteen 145 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:33,279 eighty nine Labor Day weekend. At some point, my father 146 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:37,879 told me a story which he repeated numerous times because 147 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:40,840 we kept coming back to it. He told me that 148 00:08:40,879 --> 00:08:44,639 the FBI agents in charge of my sister's case had 149 00:08:44,759 --> 00:08:48,120 said that they were looking at two watermen who were 150 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:52,759 brothers who lived in Lancaster County, Virginia. We never knew 151 00:08:52,799 --> 00:08:57,039 their names, but we knew that these FBI agents rolled 152 00:08:57,159 --> 00:09:02,000 up on Wilmer's home family home and found him in 153 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:07,720 the driveway cleaning out using solvents and we believe repainting 154 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:11,960 parts of the interior of this very distinctive nineteen sixty 155 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:16,320 six Dodge Dakota truck. And they were convinced, these two 156 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:21,200 FBI agents that they had identified a likely suspect in 157 00:09:21,279 --> 00:09:24,440 the Colonial Parkway murders. Now I have to guess here, 158 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:28,679 since we know that after Keith and Sandy disappeared in 159 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:32,960 April nineteen eighty eight, within days, that's when the agents 160 00:09:33,279 --> 00:09:37,360 began looking for this very distinctive truck because couples reported 161 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:40,399 they had been harassed on the Colonial Parkway by a 162 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:44,600 man driving this very distinctive pickup truck with this very distinctive, 163 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:48,200 elaborate rig on the back of the blue green pickup 164 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:49,320 truck with riding. 165 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:50,919 Speaker 5: On the doors. This is a one of a kind. 166 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:53,039 Speaker 2: There was no other truck out there that's going to 167 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:55,240 look like this, and this truck was a classic in 168 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:58,360 nineteen eighty eight. It was already then, what twenty two 169 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:03,320 years old. But it's then that he Alan Wade Wilmer 170 00:10:03,399 --> 00:10:07,960 Senior moves on to the radar. We believe that his brother, 171 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:11,639 William Keith Wilmer, who goes by his middle name Keith, 172 00:10:11,799 --> 00:10:16,320 who's still alive, was the second person who was questioned 173 00:10:16,519 --> 00:10:17,879 in this case, but we don't. 174 00:10:17,759 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 5: Know that for certain. 175 00:10:19,279 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 2: My guess is that my father telling me this driveway story, 176 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:29,919 which then led to Wilmer being brought into custody, questioned 177 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:34,440 search warrants issued federal search warrants of his property as 178 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:38,399 family's home, and that led to him being given two 179 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:45,000 polygraph examinations. One he passed and one was inconclusive. In 180 00:10:45,039 --> 00:10:48,799 other words, you can't tell if the person is lying 181 00:10:48,879 --> 00:10:52,399 or telling the truth, kind of no definitive answer. This 182 00:10:52,519 --> 00:10:55,480 means that Wilmer was not just on the FBI's radar, 183 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:59,519 he was actually, I believe, the leading suspect in the 184 00:10:59,519 --> 00:11:02,960 disappear into Keith calling Cassandra Haley Bill, I'm going to. 185 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:04,879 Speaker 3: Ask you a question that I actually don't think i've 186 00:11:04,919 --> 00:11:07,759 asked you before. Are you aware, because I know at 187 00:11:07,799 --> 00:11:10,879 some point or another you took over being the family 188 00:11:10,919 --> 00:11:14,639 liaison from your dad, and you took it over, I'm sure, 189 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:17,840 much to the FBI's chagrin. I wonder if they would 190 00:11:17,879 --> 00:11:22,480 have preferred to deal with your dad. But I am curious. 191 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:26,000 Do you know did your dad ever follow up with 192 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:29,960 any of the case agents about the driveway story? Did 193 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:31,960 he ever call and say, hey, you guys were telling 194 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:34,600 me about that guy, what'd you find out about him? 195 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:35,399 Do you know if he ever? 196 00:11:35,919 --> 00:11:40,480 Speaker 2: My father did speak with the FBI about this numerous times. 197 00:11:40,799 --> 00:11:44,799 My father came to the understanding that they had moved 198 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:48,360 these two suspects, which we believe are the two brothers, 199 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:53,279 onto the less likely list because of the polygraph result. 200 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:54,799 Speaker 5: We were told. 201 00:11:54,519 --> 00:11:59,759 Speaker 2: They had given them polygraph examinations, and the investigation continued, 202 00:11:59,759 --> 00:12:03,039 and of course the murders continue as well. First of all, 203 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:07,279 we have Teresa Lynn Spaw Howell, who's murdered in July 204 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:12,639 nineteen eighty nine, and then in August September Labor Day weekend, 205 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:16,240 we have the disappearance of Anna, Maria Phelps, and Daniel Lauer. 206 00:12:16,759 --> 00:12:22,840 The investigation continues at that time and suspects continue coming forward, 207 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:26,840 and as far as we knew, the watermen were put 208 00:12:26,879 --> 00:12:30,440 to the side because the FBI, for whatever reason, didn't 209 00:12:30,519 --> 00:12:33,639 seem to regard them as leading suspects. 210 00:12:34,159 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 3: Very interesting. One of the things that I would love 211 00:12:37,399 --> 00:12:41,120 to eventually hear from myself. And maybe I don't know, 212 00:12:41,159 --> 00:12:43,639 maybe one of these days, once this case is fully resolved, 213 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:45,759 you and I will get to look at case files, 214 00:12:45,759 --> 00:12:48,279 write the whole book. That entire thing. Yes, I would 215 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:51,519 love to know who came to the four after that 216 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:55,960 was so entirely worthy of the FBI's attention, that made 217 00:12:56,039 --> 00:12:58,879 them go, you know what, let's put these guys off 218 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:02,240 to the side, which, as we know now, Wilmer he 219 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:05,120 did do it. He murdered Robin, he murdered David, he 220 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:08,720 murdered Terry. We know that he is a killer. I 221 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:11,639 just wonder what made them go, you know what, move 222 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:13,960 on to the next thing. Who came up onto their 223 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:16,759 radar that made them go, you know what, we're putting 224 00:13:16,759 --> 00:13:19,519 these guys aside. We got to go after this person instead. 225 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 2: It's a question I would love for us to see 226 00:13:22,519 --> 00:13:25,480 the answer to. I'm not sure. Dozens of people have 227 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:29,320 come up over the years, and as recently as January 228 00:13:29,799 --> 00:13:33,799 twenty ten, which is the last time the FBI had 229 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:38,960 the families in for a group meeting, and I'm pretty 230 00:13:39,039 --> 00:13:44,240 shocked about this. That was fifteen years ago. The FBI 231 00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:48,360 has never brought the families back together for a meeting. 232 00:13:48,799 --> 00:13:50,799 I want to be clear here. They've spoken to us 233 00:13:50,919 --> 00:13:54,840 individually numerous times. And there was a period of time 234 00:13:54,879 --> 00:13:57,279 several years ago when I spoke to our case agent 235 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:01,639 every week for probably a year or more. If we 236 00:14:01,759 --> 00:14:04,440 had not spoken during the course of a week, she 237 00:14:04,519 --> 00:14:07,600 would call me on Friday and we would typically spend 238 00:14:07,639 --> 00:14:10,919 an hour every single week going over what the latest 239 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:13,759 developments were. Over that period of time, one hundred and 240 00:14:13,799 --> 00:14:17,759 fifty persons of interest were developed. Obviously, they can't all 241 00:14:17,799 --> 00:14:21,159 be involved. Even the investigators have said to me, if 242 00:14:21,159 --> 00:14:23,559 you've got one hundred and fifty persons of interest, that's 243 00:14:23,639 --> 00:14:28,000 the long list. As you work those suspects, some of 244 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:30,960 them might remain on the short list, as they called it. 245 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:33,440 And I'm not saying there was an actual list. I 246 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:36,480 think they're just using a colloquial expression. But they said 247 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:40,440 that ten or fifteen people would be on the short 248 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:44,320 list that is, the most likely suspects, and a number 249 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:47,240 of them their names have become public. Some of them 250 00:14:47,279 --> 00:14:51,480 are dead now, people like Fred Atwell, Ron Little and others. 251 00:14:51,879 --> 00:14:56,120 It's pretty clear though, that at some point the watermen 252 00:14:56,799 --> 00:15:02,519 get put aside, and that very unfortunately means that despite 253 00:15:02,559 --> 00:15:08,240 the fact that Alan Wade Wilmer Senior was squarely in 254 00:15:08,279 --> 00:15:12,000 the headlights of this investigation in nineteen eighty eight, for 255 00:15:12,039 --> 00:15:15,120 whatever reason, which I believe may tie back into the 256 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:19,159 polygraph examinations plural, he seems to have been put aside. 257 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 3: The one thought that I kept coming back to right 258 00:15:23,159 --> 00:15:25,600 after all of this was revealed about Wilmer, and the 259 00:15:25,639 --> 00:15:28,320 thought that I still keep coming back to is if 260 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:30,919 those polygraph results had been questioned, if he had not 261 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:33,600 been put aside, how many people might still be alive today. 262 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:36,559 Speaker 2: I have had the same thought. I was talking to 263 00:15:36,639 --> 00:15:39,159 someone last night who knows this case well, and he 264 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:44,039 said the exact same thing now I have said, and 265 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:47,240 I will reiterate, if the FBI had done its job 266 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:52,240 properly in nineteen eighty eight, Teresa Lynn Spawhowell would be 267 00:15:52,279 --> 00:15:56,919 alive today. She died in summer nineteen eighty nine, and 268 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,000 we know for a fact that Wilmer is her killer. 269 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:03,679 What I'm leaving open because I honestly don't know the answer. 270 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:06,879 Anna Maria Phelps and Daniel Lauer were killed and their 271 00:16:06,879 --> 00:16:10,279 bodies were dumped at this hunt club off Interstate sixty 272 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:14,320 four in New Kent County. I don't yet know of 273 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:18,879 any forensic or other link that gives us a clear 274 00:16:18,919 --> 00:16:24,080 indication that Anna and Daniel's killer is Alan Wade Wilmer, Sr. 275 00:16:24,399 --> 00:16:29,639 Or some other offender. I'm not overlooking them. One disappointing 276 00:16:29,679 --> 00:16:31,799 bit of news is we seem to be having some 277 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:34,519 news on the horizon, is what we've been told by 278 00:16:34,759 --> 00:16:37,399 the FBI and the Virginia State Police. But I haven't 279 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:43,600 heard much in the Phelps lawer murder about any significant developments, 280 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:44,840 which is very disappointing. 281 00:16:45,399 --> 00:16:48,799 Speaker 3: It is in another thing, because we have come almost 282 00:16:48,799 --> 00:16:52,360 a year full circle. I've been disappointed in the fact 283 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:56,200 that after that one spate of news, there has been 284 00:16:56,279 --> 00:17:00,559 nothing else. There has been no other information given to 285 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:03,720 the press or just given to the families about anything 286 00:17:03,759 --> 00:17:07,559 that was found at Wilmer's residence about potential connections to 287 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:12,160 weather cases. We have extrapolated in our live events and 288 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:15,440 at Crime con that there are probably any number of 289 00:17:15,559 --> 00:17:19,920 other cases that could be pinned to Wilmer. I still 290 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:23,200 think that it's very likely that Loriann Powell and Brian 291 00:17:23,279 --> 00:17:26,400 Pettinger's cases might be linked to Wilmer. We think Mary 292 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:29,440 Harding might be linked to Wilmer. I had really hoped 293 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:32,000 as the months and months and months progressed of twenty 294 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:35,640 twenty four, that we were going to hear something about 295 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:39,319 what had been found on the FBI raids in Wilmer's house, 296 00:17:39,599 --> 00:17:42,799 and we've heard nothing. We haven't heard a single thing. 297 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:46,039 I would say that's probably the most disappointing part of 298 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:49,119 twenty twenty four for me with relation to this case. 299 00:17:49,279 --> 00:17:53,240 I had other disappointments in twenty twenty four, and some. 300 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:55,759 Speaker 2: Significant conversations for another day. 301 00:17:56,000 --> 00:18:00,039 Speaker 3: Yeah, significant other stuff happened in twenty twenty four, But 302 00:17:59,839 --> 00:18:02,720 the biggest source of disappointment for me with this case 303 00:18:02,799 --> 00:18:05,880 is that we had news and then nothing, and it 304 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:08,240 was like we were the only ones talking about it. 305 00:18:08,559 --> 00:18:12,920 Speaker 2: The FBI and the Virginia State Police did respond to 306 00:18:13,279 --> 00:18:17,240 our significant objection to what they said on January eighth. 307 00:18:17,559 --> 00:18:20,599 They did admit in a very low key way, which 308 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:24,119 is so typical of the FBI, that Robin Edwards and 309 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:27,279 David Nobling were part of the Colonial Parkway murders, and 310 00:18:27,319 --> 00:18:29,559 of course they'd done everything they could not to mention 311 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:34,279 the Colonial Parkway murders, and it felt deceptive. Now the 312 00:18:34,319 --> 00:18:40,519 families have been in touch with the investigators, the FBI families, 313 00:18:40,559 --> 00:18:45,799 that is, Thomas Dawski, Call and Haley. Those four victims 314 00:18:46,039 --> 00:18:50,079 are all FBI cases because they happened inside the Colonial 315 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:54,960 Parkway National Park. The other cases, Robin Edwards, David Nobling, 316 00:18:55,079 --> 00:18:58,720 Anna Maria Phelps, and Daniel Lauer are Virginia State Police 317 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:02,319 cases because they happened off the Colonial Parkway. But the 318 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:07,799 FBI families Tomastowski, Call and Haley were told earlier this year. 319 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:12,480 So this is in September twenty twenty four. We were 320 00:19:12,519 --> 00:19:18,279 told to expect new advanced forensic test results in October 321 00:19:18,599 --> 00:19:24,000 for the Call Haley disappearance and November for the Tomas 322 00:19:24,039 --> 00:19:28,359 Stowski murder. We have received some word that there has 323 00:19:28,519 --> 00:19:33,200 been progress in Call Haley, which is very exciting and 324 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:36,720 we would be thrilled if they can announce a resolution, 325 00:19:37,039 --> 00:19:41,839 a solve answer for our many questions. We've heard nothing, 326 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:46,960 absolutely nothing on Thomas Dowski. Now I'm not necessarily the 327 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:50,279 most patient person in the world, but we've been waiting 328 00:19:50,319 --> 00:19:54,880 for Angels Second for thirty eight years. Here we are 329 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:58,559 in a couple of days, two days after this podcast launches, 330 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,000 it'll be a year since that press conference you were 331 00:20:02,039 --> 00:20:05,920 just discussing. We understand that new leads have been developed 332 00:20:06,039 --> 00:20:09,880 and that there are new avenues that need to be explored. 333 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:14,400 We get that, but again, another year has gone by 334 00:20:14,599 --> 00:20:18,680 and we still don't have answers, and the results that 335 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:23,519 we were promised in October for Carl Haley and November 336 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:28,039 for Thomas Dowski have not materialized. So you can understand 337 00:20:28,079 --> 00:20:32,799 our frustration. We just feel like we're always waiting. The 338 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:34,920 last time I reached out to our case edge and 339 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:38,240 it was I have no update, So what's up? 340 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:42,960 Speaker 3: Thirty eight years is so long. I don't think people 341 00:20:43,519 --> 00:20:47,480 can understand the sheer scope of time that you have 342 00:20:47,559 --> 00:20:51,519 been living with this tragedy. Now, the longer that it 343 00:20:51,559 --> 00:20:54,640 goes with no answers, I'm sure this is actually almost 344 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:57,960 worse than the thirty eight years prior to this, because 345 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:01,799 now you know they're so close they had somebody. I'm curious. 346 00:21:01,839 --> 00:21:03,799 I don't think I've asked you this one before, but hey, 347 00:21:03,839 --> 00:21:07,359 there's no time like the present on our podcast publicly 348 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:11,440 to ask you this question. When Wilmer was announced as 349 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:16,160 the killer for Robin, David and Terry, did you, in 350 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:19,799 your heart of hearts have some sort of feeling that 351 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:23,039 he might be the person responsible for Kathy and Becky? 352 00:21:23,559 --> 00:21:26,680 Was there anything and like your brother's intuition that just 353 00:21:26,759 --> 00:21:28,240 kind of ade you go, Oh, I bet it was 354 00:21:28,319 --> 00:21:30,720 this guy? Or did you really have to think about it? 355 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:34,559 Speaker 2: I was certainly open to it as soon as we 356 00:21:34,759 --> 00:21:37,559 heard his name, which, as we discussed, you and I 357 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:41,000 had heard this from other sources several months prior and 358 00:21:41,039 --> 00:21:44,039 had said nothing publicly on this podcast or anywhere else. 359 00:21:44,559 --> 00:21:48,799 As soon as I heard his name and started getting 360 00:21:48,799 --> 00:21:53,240 some background on him, I realized, Oh, this is the waterman, 361 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:57,160 this is the guy with the brother, and this is 362 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:00,680 two people from Lancaster County that were questioning and search. 363 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:05,079 Warren's issued two polygraph examinations given to at least Alan 364 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:06,200 Wade Wilmer Senior. 365 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:07,640 Speaker 5: I'm not sure about the brother. 366 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:11,519 Speaker 2: It certainly crossed my mind that this guy could be 367 00:22:11,599 --> 00:22:15,400 responsible for all of the Colonial Parkway murders. Alan Wade 368 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:19,480 Wilmer Senior meets the FBI criteria for a serial killer. 369 00:22:19,759 --> 00:22:23,119 He's killed three or more people in two or more 370 00:22:23,519 --> 00:22:27,759 separate incidents that we're aware of. And then his name 371 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:32,559 and the Wilmer name have been mentioned repeatedly for a 372 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:36,839 series of unsolved rapes and murders up in Lancaster County 373 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:40,519 and surrounding areas as far back as the nineteen seventies. 374 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:45,519 So it occurred to me that Wilmer could be responsible 375 00:22:45,599 --> 00:22:49,319 for all of the Colonial Parkway murders, especially since we 376 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:54,240 realized it's Wilmer who is immediately linked to the disappearance 377 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:55,839 of Keith Colin Cassandra Haley. 378 00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:01,039 Speaker 3: When we got this information about Wilmer and we were 379 00:23:01,079 --> 00:23:03,640 starting to put together he's the waterman, this, that, and 380 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:06,720 the other thing. I realized on my long drives to 381 00:23:06,799 --> 00:23:09,519 and from school, because I have half an hour drive 382 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:14,200 every day, twice a day. I started finding myself trying 383 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:18,400 to piece the case back together, extrapolating from new information, 384 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:22,119 how might this have went down? We know what happened, 385 00:23:22,519 --> 00:23:24,640 We're pretty sure we know most of what happened with 386 00:23:24,759 --> 00:23:27,519 Robin and David and with Terry. One of the things 387 00:23:27,519 --> 00:23:30,680 that I did find myself going over again and again 388 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:34,200 was if it was Wilmer, where did he run across 389 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,599 Keith and Sandy. If Wilmer is the person who killed 390 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,240 Kathy and Becky, how did he come across them? Did 391 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:42,880 he come by boat? Did he come by truck? Did 392 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:46,799 he try his police impersonator bs on them? I have 393 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:49,720 spent so many times back and forth on these long 394 00:23:49,839 --> 00:23:52,319 drives up and down Inner Sate sixty four because I 395 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:54,720 can't go on the parkway right now. They're doing this 396 00:23:54,799 --> 00:23:59,039 massive rehab project. So rather than my beautiful drive home 397 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:03,039 along the white, scenic, beautiful parkway, I don't get that anymore. 398 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:05,960 Twice a day I get Interstate sixty four with all 399 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:08,480 of its traffic. I hate that. I want the parkway back, 400 00:24:08,839 --> 00:24:11,319 but that's neither here nor there. I have found myself 401 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:14,200 spending a lot of time trying to reconstruct for myself 402 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:16,799 based on this new information. Now, what do I know? 403 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:18,400 What do I think I know? And what are my 404 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:21,559 new questions? Is that something that you find yourself doing 405 00:24:21,599 --> 00:24:22,079 as well? 406 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:26,200 Speaker 2: It does, because certainly the introduction of Wilmer my name 407 00:24:26,759 --> 00:24:30,359 linked via DNA to Robin Edwards, David Nobling, and Teresa Howell. 408 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:33,240 You begin to say to yourself, does it end there? 409 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:37,519 Or is this guy and potentially other accomplices does he 410 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:42,160 link into some of these other murders. Immediately you start 411 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:45,480 thinking about the Call Haley disappearance and they've been gone 412 00:24:45,559 --> 00:24:51,240 for what thirty six years? I think it'll be thirty 413 00:24:51,279 --> 00:24:56,799 seven coming up this spring, and he's an extremely likely 414 00:24:57,079 --> 00:25:02,200 suspect in the Call Haley disappearance. Now you're checking more 415 00:25:02,279 --> 00:25:06,039 and more names, and you're saying to yourself, Wilmer and 416 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:12,240 potentially accomplices are responsible for maybe it's three murders so far, 417 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:15,000 and you could be adding Keith and Sandy as a 418 00:25:15,039 --> 00:25:19,119 fourth and fifth murder. You're listening to mind Over Murder. 419 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:23,440 We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors. 420 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,440 We're back here at Mindover Murder. There seems to be 421 00:25:30,759 --> 00:25:35,400 some sign that Wilmer was also questioned in Kathy and 422 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,200 Becky's murder, which would have been back in eighty six. 423 00:25:38,759 --> 00:25:42,200 Now you're starting to realize could be seven. When you 424 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:46,240 start taking a look at the homicide of Anna Maria 425 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:51,000 Phelps and Daniel Lauer, and Wilmer's lifelong interest in hunting. 426 00:25:51,319 --> 00:25:54,160 The two victims are found at a hunt club off 427 00:25:54,279 --> 00:25:57,279 Interstate sixty four, which, oh, by the way, is one 428 00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:00,680 of the ways you would come down from lank County 429 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:05,240 down towards the Colonial Parkway area, where we know he 430 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:09,000 was working as a waterman and often living on his boat, 431 00:26:09,039 --> 00:26:12,200 the Denny Wade, and sometimes also living in a what 432 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:16,160 essentially was like a boarding house down in Hampton area. 433 00:26:16,559 --> 00:26:20,680 The Interstate sixty four route that goes right past the 434 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:24,839 rest stop where we believe that Anna and Daniel had 435 00:26:24,839 --> 00:26:28,039 stopped and may have interacted with someone, and then a 436 00:26:28,079 --> 00:26:30,960 mile or so further down the road is the turnoff 437 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:33,480 for the hunt club in New Kent County. And then 438 00:26:33,519 --> 00:26:36,079 of course the car is found in this very odd 439 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,119 juxtaposition on the opposite side of the road that is 440 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:42,759 heading back in the direction of travel. But you realize 441 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,279 that would have been a route that Wilmer would have 442 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:48,720 known extremely well, because that's one of the ways you 443 00:26:48,759 --> 00:26:52,559 would drive from his home base in Lancaster County down 444 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:54,480 to the Williamsburg area. 445 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,680 Speaker 3: It suddenly does start adding up. Now, it turns out 446 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:01,319 with the addition of two Harry Howell, we have nine 447 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:05,119 victims in the Colonial Parkway murders. If it turns out 448 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:10,359 he's responsible for Thomas Dawski, Carl Haley, Phelps Lower and 449 00:27:10,519 --> 00:27:13,319 Robin and David and Terry, that's nine. We bring in 450 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:16,720 Mary Harding, which the folks in Lancaster seemed to very 451 00:27:16,799 --> 00:27:20,920 strongly feel as a possibility. We're up to ten Amber 452 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:25,039 Lundgren down in Ashville, which had a suspect sketch and 453 00:27:25,079 --> 00:27:28,640 a truck sketch very similar. Suddenly you're up to more 454 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:31,759 and more, and you start to wonder, how long has 455 00:27:31,839 --> 00:27:34,119 this guy been doing this, how long has he been 456 00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:38,839 so successfully flying under the radar, and at what point 457 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:42,400 could he have been stopped entirely if someone had just 458 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:44,519 looked at that polygraph again and said, you know what, 459 00:27:44,599 --> 00:27:45,680 there's something weird with this guy. 460 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,400 Speaker 2: And then if you throw in Brian Pettinger and Lorian Powell, 461 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:52,519 both of whom were murdered, stabbed to death, bodies dumped 462 00:27:52,559 --> 00:27:53,960 in rivers. 463 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:56,880 Speaker 3: Bookended around cal Haley exactly. 464 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:00,920 Speaker 2: The disappearance of Keith and Sandy is right in between 465 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:05,240 the brutal murders of Brian Patton Jour and Lorian Powell. 466 00:28:05,759 --> 00:28:08,720 You start to realize there are a lot of potential 467 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:14,359 links here. What's frustrating is the communication, particularly with the FBI, 468 00:28:14,519 --> 00:28:18,400 has been so terrible in terms of keeping the families 469 00:28:18,599 --> 00:28:22,799 posted because we've been waiting for so long, and then 470 00:28:22,839 --> 00:28:26,599 we have this major case announcement on January eighth, twenty 471 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,839 twenty four, which is handled in a very odd way, 472 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:34,359 with little if any acknowledgment that we're talking about the 473 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:39,279 Colonial Parkway murders. We even saw the advance press advisory 474 00:28:39,319 --> 00:28:41,599 that there was going to be a press conference and 475 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,880 the FBI is doing something. They did it that day, 476 00:28:45,079 --> 00:28:47,519 and then they did it later when they made the 477 00:28:47,519 --> 00:28:52,200 announcement of the solve in the Shenandoah National Park murders 478 00:28:52,319 --> 00:28:55,400 of Julie Williams and Lolly Winings, which is they're announcing 479 00:28:55,440 --> 00:29:01,559 these press conferences on extremely short notice, like couple of hours. 480 00:29:02,039 --> 00:29:05,559 A number of reporters, especially national reporters who might not 481 00:29:05,599 --> 00:29:09,279 necessarily be based in Virginia often based in DC, said 482 00:29:09,319 --> 00:29:11,640 to us, if they had made it clearer that this 483 00:29:11,839 --> 00:29:14,400 was the Colonial Parkway murders, we would have covered that 484 00:29:14,519 --> 00:29:17,200 press conference. But they never said it was the Colonial 485 00:29:17,279 --> 00:29:19,880 Parkway murders. And if they gave us more than two 486 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:24,079 freaking hours notice. You have to understand those of you 487 00:29:24,119 --> 00:29:27,279 that are not in the news media, the reporters and 488 00:29:27,319 --> 00:29:31,160 the camera crews, are given assignments every day. In other words, 489 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:33,559 here's the story you're going to cover, and here's where 490 00:29:33,599 --> 00:29:36,519 you're going to go. And there's a news director and 491 00:29:36,599 --> 00:29:40,440 an assignment editor who send these people out or they 492 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:42,680 tell them this is the story that you're going to cover. 493 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:44,759 Speaker 5: With two hours notice. 494 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:49,839 Speaker 2: That actually ensures that these stories will not receive a 495 00:29:49,839 --> 00:29:52,200 lot of coverage and will not receive a lot of 496 00:29:52,279 --> 00:29:55,400 national coverage. And I have to say, I've been in 497 00:29:55,480 --> 00:30:00,640 the entertainment business and the news business for decades. This 498 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:04,319 is deliberate. And I'm calling the FBI out on this. 499 00:30:04,839 --> 00:30:07,759 You've done it over and over again. It's very clear 500 00:30:07,839 --> 00:30:10,720 you don't like talking about the Colonial Parkway murders, and 501 00:30:10,839 --> 00:30:13,480 you don't like the fact that we are outspoken in 502 00:30:13,519 --> 00:30:17,519 our discussions of the Colonial Parkway murders. And I don't care. 503 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:22,200 I'm calling you out on this, pulling this crap, and 504 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:26,799 I'm waiting to see I'm hoping that we're going to 505 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,319 see a significant case announcement in the coming months. 506 00:30:30,359 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 5: In the Colonial. 507 00:30:31,079 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 2: Parkway murders, I'm waiting to see how they handle this. 508 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:37,680 Are they going to give us sufficient notice? I don't 509 00:30:37,759 --> 00:30:41,319 live in Virginia, as we've discussed, I live in Connecticut, 510 00:30:41,359 --> 00:30:43,720 so I either you need to drive or fly to 511 00:30:44,279 --> 00:30:46,400 Virginia in order to be there for any kind of 512 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:47,279 press conference. 513 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,799 Speaker 5: Are they going to give us any kind of notice? 514 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 3: Yeah? I would hope if there's going to be a 515 00:30:53,279 --> 00:30:56,000 solve in your sister's case, they would at least allow 516 00:30:56,039 --> 00:31:00,759 you to be there. And that would necessitate I'm calling 517 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,000 and saying, hey, you've got twenty four hours to get 518 00:31:04,039 --> 00:31:07,359 to Virginia. We've got a press conference. I would hope. 519 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:08,279 I don't know. 520 00:31:09,039 --> 00:31:13,960 Speaker 2: I get very skeptical of what's transpired. The Colonial Parkway 521 00:31:14,039 --> 00:31:18,279 murders press conference was called on extremely short notice. And 522 00:31:18,359 --> 00:31:21,960 let's be honest, these cases are over thirty years old. 523 00:31:22,599 --> 00:31:26,799 It isn't like we have to rush. This isn't a 524 00:31:26,839 --> 00:31:29,680 fire that just happened. We've had a lot of crazy 525 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,319 things happen in the last couple of days, very sad 526 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:37,640 things New Orleans and Las Vegas, and a recent arrest 527 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:41,079 of this man in Smithfield, Virginia, with what they're saying 528 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:45,400 is the largest cash of explosives ever uncovered by the FBI. 529 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:50,200 I get the fact that when it's breaking news, oftentimes 530 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:53,240 there are going to be press conferences held on very 531 00:31:53,279 --> 00:31:56,440 short notice. But this isn't that we've been waiting for 532 00:31:56,559 --> 00:31:59,920 answers for now thirty eight years. You're telling me that 533 00:32:00,039 --> 00:32:02,680 they can't give us heads up, and not just us 534 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:06,319 the families, I'm talking about the listeners to this podcast 535 00:32:06,359 --> 00:32:07,359 and the American people. 536 00:32:07,359 --> 00:32:09,440 Speaker 5: They have a right to know what. 537 00:32:09,319 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 2: Went on when you see the same thing happening over 538 00:32:13,039 --> 00:32:17,279 and over again, which is misleading press materials going out 539 00:32:17,559 --> 00:32:20,559 no mention of the case by its proper name. We 540 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:24,000 didn't name this thing the Colonial Parkway murders. That's actually 541 00:32:24,079 --> 00:32:27,000 a media concoction, but it is the name that the 542 00:32:27,039 --> 00:32:31,400 public knows. These cases by press conference is called on 543 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:37,519 extremely short notice, and that's done very deliberately, and public 544 00:32:37,559 --> 00:32:40,960 affairs people at the FBI who listen to this podcast 545 00:32:41,359 --> 00:32:44,559 know I'm speaking the truth here when I say this 546 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:49,079 is being done deliberately and this is at best misleading. 547 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 3: When we talk to our friend Kate Miles after the 548 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:57,680 break in the Shenandoah case, she had a really wonderful statement, 549 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:01,599 and it's an easy enough charge to follow. She said, FBI, 550 00:33:01,839 --> 00:33:06,119 please show your work, show what you are doing. Be 551 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:09,880 transparent essentially, and we realize, of course, because we are 552 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:12,839 not new to the FBI radio, we understand that there 553 00:33:12,839 --> 00:33:14,759 are things that you cannot reveal in the course of 554 00:33:14,759 --> 00:33:17,839 your investigation. We get that, We totally do, but at 555 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:23,319 the very least explain your reasoning behind not being straightforward 556 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:28,079 about the call Haley Wilmer connection. Immediately, you're not going 557 00:33:28,119 --> 00:33:29,960 to have a good explanation for it. It's going to 558 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:33,079 be that there was face saving involved, but still you 559 00:33:33,079 --> 00:33:35,839 could at least own up to it. We are big 560 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:42,279 believers in transparency and accountability from our law enforcement agencies, 561 00:33:42,359 --> 00:33:47,319 whether that is the FBI, state police, local police. It 562 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:52,440 is infuriating when it turns out that these things happen, 563 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:55,559 and we understand there's no good reason for them to happen, 564 00:33:55,559 --> 00:33:59,200 but they still do. Anyway. These families have been waiting 565 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,839 for thirty eight years. The least that you can do 566 00:34:03,319 --> 00:34:06,960 is offer them a little bit of dignity and a 567 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:11,320 little bit of grace by being fully clear and transparent 568 00:34:11,519 --> 00:34:14,679 about what has transpired over the course of this case. 569 00:34:15,199 --> 00:34:17,320 Is it going to look great for the FBI. Nope, 570 00:34:17,559 --> 00:34:21,559 because mistakes have been made. But in the fullness of 571 00:34:21,679 --> 00:34:25,079 time and in fairness to these families, own up to it, 572 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:28,719 admit it, and move on. That's the best thing that 573 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:29,199 you can do. 574 00:34:29,519 --> 00:34:32,920 Speaker 2: And in both the Colonial Parkway murders announcement and the 575 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:38,320 Shenandoah announcement, the suspect was dead. Walter Leo Jackson, who's 576 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,840 a serial rapist, was the double murder suspect in the 577 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:46,960 Julie Williams Slolly Winan's murder. A very interesting parallel developed, 578 00:34:47,159 --> 00:34:50,320 which is that after the FBI and the Virginia State 579 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:55,400 Police use the word closed referring to the Robin Edwards 580 00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:59,400 David Knobling murder and the Teresa Lynn spaw Howell murder 581 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:04,599 as well, several journalists sent Foyer requests Freedom of Information 582 00:35:04,679 --> 00:35:08,880 Act requests for more information. Now the suspect is dead, 583 00:35:09,199 --> 00:35:12,079 there isn't going to be a trial. We're not protecting 584 00:35:12,119 --> 00:35:16,119 anyone's civil rights because the suspect is gone. All of 585 00:35:16,159 --> 00:35:18,920 a sudden, the FBI and the Virginia State Police started 586 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,679 backing up and saying, oh, we didn't mean that the 587 00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:24,599 case was closed, because Obviously, if the case is solved 588 00:35:24,679 --> 00:35:28,199 or closed, we should be able to read and hear 589 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:31,400 more about how the FBI, Virginia State Police, and other 590 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,440 agencies helped solve these cases. And all of a sudden, 591 00:35:34,519 --> 00:35:37,400 they're saying no. At the same time, you mentioned our 592 00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:41,199 friend Kate Miles, who wrote the book that helped move 593 00:35:41,639 --> 00:35:46,159 the Julie Williams Lollywine in investigation forward. She requested additional 594 00:35:46,199 --> 00:35:49,679 information and filed Foyer requests in that case, and they're 595 00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:54,559 refusing to provide any information in the Shenandoah National Park murders, 596 00:35:55,079 --> 00:35:58,239 also an FBI case because they happened inside the National Park, 597 00:35:58,599 --> 00:36:02,360 and Walter Leo Jackson is dead too. Again, no trial, 598 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:06,679 no civil rights issues. We're not trying to protect mister 599 00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:10,679 Jackson's privacy. He's been dead for several years. Foyer requests 600 00:36:10,679 --> 00:36:14,599 go in, Foroyer requests are denied. What's going on here? 601 00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:19,800 Speaker 3: It is frustrating on its best day to deal with 602 00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:24,039 the FBI and other law enforcement agencies. And we're not 603 00:36:24,079 --> 00:36:27,960 saying that all enforced law enforcement agencies are regularly difficult. 604 00:36:28,039 --> 00:36:31,760 They're not. The Virginia State Police has done a magnificent 605 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:35,960 job handling a number of these cases across the Commonwealth 606 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:40,239 this year. They've really done an amazing job serving the 607 00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:43,199 citizens of the Commonwealth. So we're not trying to lump 608 00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:47,320 every single agency in, but dealing with the FBI on 609 00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:51,599 the regular it's exhausting because you never know what you're 610 00:36:51,639 --> 00:36:54,159 going to get. Are you going to get someone who's 611 00:36:54,199 --> 00:36:56,960 willing to say, hey, I can give you some information, sure, 612 00:36:57,079 --> 00:36:58,880 or are you going to get the freeze out the 613 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,000 ice out? The fact that it has been fifteen years 614 00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:05,679 since a full group family meeting of the Colonial Parkway 615 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:10,639 murders families with the FBI, it feels insulting almost, and 616 00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:13,280 I'm not sure if that's the right word, but since 617 00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:15,400 Bill's not and I seem probably that is the right 618 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:19,119 word it is. It feels, as families of murder victims, 619 00:37:19,159 --> 00:37:23,079 you are owed more than that than a once every 620 00:37:23,159 --> 00:37:26,440 fifteen year group meeting. I would like to see them 621 00:37:26,639 --> 00:37:30,880 uphold they're part of that relationship because it is a 622 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:35,239 two way street. You and I more you than anything else, 623 00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:37,559 because you're the one who fields most of these tips. 624 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:43,079 Have provided the FBI with a number of different leads 625 00:37:43,519 --> 00:37:46,079 that I would hope have helped to advent your sisters' 626 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,440 case and investigation. You didn't have to do that, but 627 00:37:49,559 --> 00:37:53,559 you did. They owe you something in return. At the 628 00:37:53,679 --> 00:37:57,159 very least, that should be a willingness to meet if 629 00:37:57,199 --> 00:37:57,920 you ask for it. 630 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:01,400 Speaker 2: That's just my opinion, though the families will be asking 631 00:38:01,519 --> 00:38:05,960 for another meeting, our first in fifteen years, he said, 632 00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:09,719 through gritted teeth with the FBI in this first quarter 633 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:14,800 of twenty twenty five. I'm not a conspiracy theorist in 634 00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:18,639 any way, shape or form, but I cannot count how 635 00:38:18,639 --> 00:38:21,920 many times over the years, experts, people that know way 636 00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:27,199 more about how these agencies work, how investigations move forward, forensics, 637 00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:30,400 you name it. I cannot count how many times people 638 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:33,639 have said to me sometimes it feels like the FBI 639 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:37,840 doesn't want to solve the Colonial Parkway murders, because again, 640 00:38:38,119 --> 00:38:40,440 people have said to me dozens and dozens of times, 641 00:38:40,599 --> 00:38:44,079 this is a solvable case, Bill, your sister's case, Rebecca 642 00:38:44,159 --> 00:38:47,599 Dowski's case, all of the Colonial Parkway murders are a 643 00:38:47,639 --> 00:38:51,480 solvable case if they put in time, attention, and resources. 644 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:54,159 I don't know what it is. I don't know if 645 00:38:54,159 --> 00:38:58,480 it's that the FBI is embarrassed about all the problems 646 00:38:58,519 --> 00:39:01,800 in the Colonial Parkway murders, whether it's letting Wilmer walk 647 00:39:02,039 --> 00:39:05,159 back in nineteen eighty eight when he was responsible for 648 00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:08,159 at least three murders, whether it's the leak of the 649 00:39:08,199 --> 00:39:11,480 crime scene photos in two thousand and nine, whether it's 650 00:39:11,559 --> 00:39:16,400 the destruction of Kathy and Becky's rape kits as medical 651 00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:20,840 waste per order of the FBI, and there's more. It 652 00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:25,000 just goes on and on. You think to yourself, the 653 00:39:25,079 --> 00:39:28,039 way for the FBI and the Virginia State Police as 654 00:39:28,079 --> 00:39:31,079 well and all of their investigative partners to come out, 655 00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:36,159 if not looking great, at least good, is to announce 656 00:39:36,519 --> 00:39:41,039 who is responsible for these murders, Name the suspects plural 657 00:39:41,119 --> 00:39:45,079 if there are plural suspects, if there's anybody who's still alive, 658 00:39:45,559 --> 00:39:50,400 arrest them, move them towards trial, not doing anything, and 659 00:39:50,519 --> 00:39:55,000 having us endure effectively another year of radio silence since 660 00:39:55,119 --> 00:40:00,599 last January eight, twenty twenty four's announcements. It's in curiating 661 00:40:00,679 --> 00:40:04,519 and it completely lacks the transparency that you were talking about, Kristin. 662 00:40:05,079 --> 00:40:08,360 Speaker 3: We can hope that in the next couple of weeks 663 00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:11,840 or months there will be some news in this case. 664 00:40:12,199 --> 00:40:15,519 That is our hope always I'm sure that every day Bill, 665 00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:18,480 you and the other families wake up hoping this is 666 00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:19,840 going to be the day you get a phone call 667 00:40:20,199 --> 00:40:21,880 that's going to be its own kind of agony. And 668 00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:24,519 I'm sorry that's something you've had to endure for thirty 669 00:40:24,559 --> 00:40:28,559 eight years. It's awful, but we can hope that eventually, 670 00:40:28,599 --> 00:40:30,639 at some point or another, this is going to come 671 00:40:30,639 --> 00:40:33,599 to a close as satisfactory close, and I'm hoping it 672 00:40:33,639 --> 00:40:36,679 will be with the identification of Wilmer as the perpetrator 673 00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:40,320 for all of these cases. Whatever news comes out, I 674 00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:43,880 hope that the FBI is willing to be transparent, open 675 00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:47,400 and honest about it, and that they can finally reach 676 00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:50,119 a point where they can say, hey, we have closed 677 00:40:50,199 --> 00:40:53,159 the Colonial Parkway murders cases. That is my hope for 678 00:40:53,199 --> 00:40:54,039 twenty twenty five. 679 00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:58,360 Speaker 2: I want to thank all of you for listening to 680 00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:01,719 Mind over Murder. We really are appreciate your support. We 681 00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:03,920 want to thank our friends at the FBI and the 682 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:07,719 Virginia State Police who listen to this podcast. We know 683 00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:10,480 you have a lot of things to do, but somehow 684 00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:13,920 you've decided listening to this podcast is important to your agency. 685 00:41:14,519 --> 00:41:17,760 We welcome it, but please listen and try to heed 686 00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:21,239 what we're saying. And we don't claim to know more 687 00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:24,039 than you, but we sure would like to learn more 688 00:41:24,119 --> 00:41:27,559 from you, and we hope to hear from you shortly 689 00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:31,719 with what is the latest in the Colonial Parkway murders investigation. 690 00:41:32,519 --> 00:41:35,400 Speaker 3: You've got lots more excellent content coming up for you 691 00:41:35,519 --> 00:41:38,000 this year, so please stay tuned to mind Over Murders 692 00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:41,079 throughout all of twenty twenty five. In the meantime, we 693 00:41:41,119 --> 00:41:43,760 hope you all have a very happy, safe and healthy 694 00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:45,679 new year. We look forward to talking to you again. 695 00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:47,960 Thank you so much for listening to this edition of 696 00:41:48,079 --> 00:41:50,159 Mind Over Murder. We'll see you next time. 697 00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:03,559 Speaker 1: Your Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another 698 00:42:03,639 --> 00:42:04,639 Dog Productions. 699 00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:08,559 Speaker 5: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 700 00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:11,320 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 701 00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:14,000 Speaker 5: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. 702 00:42:14,559 --> 00:42:18,599 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. 703 00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:22,480 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 704 00:42:22,599 --> 00:42:25,199 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 705 00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:27,079 Murders on Facebook. 706 00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:29,880 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 707 00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:31,559 Bill Thomas five six. 708 00:42:32,039 --> 00:42:35,119 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening. To mind over murder,