Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast.
Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer,
and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my
experience as the brother of a murder victim to help
other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book
on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co
administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with
Kristin Dilly.
Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly.
Speaker 4: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate,
as well as the social media manager and co administrator
for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner
in crime, Bill Thomas.
Speaker 3: Welcome to Mind Ever Murder.
Speaker 2: I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm Bill Thomas.
Speaker 3: We want to start top of the pod today by
offering a retraction on a statement that we made and
an apology to our colleagues at the Murder Sheet.
Speaker 2: Last Monday, which would have been December thirtieth, we ran
an episode where we discussed the Delphi case in Indiana.
That's the case that involves the murder of Liberty German
and Abigail Williams, the two young girls that were murdered
in that podcast. I made a misstatement attributing something to
the Murder Sheet podcast which was not accurate, and I
want to offer a heartfelt apology. This is my mistake,
not Christen's. What we did was we took down the
podcast with the error, corrected it and put the podcast
back up. But some people heard my error and we
want to apologize for that, and I owe Kristen, my
podcast partner, and apology, the team at the Murder Sheet,
and apology and our listeners for failing to fact check something.
We are sincerely sorry for my mistake and apologies all around.
It won't happen again.
Speaker 3: When I thank our listeners for making sure that they
let us know that had happened and for making sure
that they hold us accountable. We want to make sure
that our podcast is up to ethical standards as always,
so thank you to everybody for listening, for making sure
that we understand when we've made a mistake, and for
making sure that we are accountable for that. We appreciate
you very much.
Speaker 2: With that said, I think Happy New Year is the
next order of business. This is our first podcast of
twenty twenty five.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it is, And I can't believe that we're already
a quarter of a century in two with the twenty
first century. That I realized that the other day, and
that kind of freaked me out.
Speaker 2: I thought you were going to say we were a
quarter of a century into podcast again. I was like,
wait a minute, it hasn't been that long.
Speaker 3: It feels that long sometimes.
Speaker 2: Especially today when I'm busy wiping egg off my face.
Speaker 3: When we launched this podcast, it will be January sixth,
and right around this time last year, unknowingly, we were
only a couple of days away from the biggest break
in the Colonial Parkway murders case. Yet on January eighth
of last year, the FBI and the Virginia State Police,
how they joined press conference in which they announced Alan
Wade Wilmer Senior was responsible and tied via DNA to
the murders of Robin Edwards and David Noblin. And from
that point forward until now, nothing has been the same
for this case or for us, And so we wanted
to take a minute here as we approached that one
year anniversary, do a year in review and also talk
about how this break in the case has affected us,
both as a podcast and as people who are invested
in this case in the years since Boy, last year
was a year, wasn't it, Bill?
Speaker 5: It sure was.
Speaker 2: That January eighth press conference also featured the Hampton, Virginia
Police Department and also included an announcement that Alan Wade Wilmer,
who was a waterman from Lancaster County, Virginia, who had
spent an extensive amount of time in the Tidewater area
that is where the Colonial Parkway murders took place, that
Alan Wade Wilmer, Senior, was also responsible for the murder
of Teresa Lynn Howell, who was murdered in nineteen eighty nine. Now,
her name was not one we were familiar with. We
had heard from sources inside the investigation as far back
as October twenty twenty three that this announcement was coming,
so we knew the name of the suspect, we knew
who the victims were. When the announcement was made January eighth,
twenty twenty four, this was all information, much of which
we had already heard about but obviously had not publicly
commented on.
Speaker 5: One of the things we found very.
Speaker 2: Odd about the January eighth press conference was that the FBI,
Virginia State Police, and to a lesser extent, the Hampton
Police Department seemed to be going way out of their
way not to link Robin Edwards and David Nobling's murder
into the Colonial Parkway murders, which we could not understand.
They were suddenly referring to them as the Isle of
White murders, which no one has ever called them.
Speaker 3: That.
Speaker 2: It wasn't until we, and by we, I mean Kristen Bill, Blaine,
Pardo Wavy, reporter Andy Fox and others publicly called them out.
And that is the FBI and the Virginia State Police
specifically for failing to properly identify the Robin Edwards David
Nobling cases being part of the Colonial Parkway murders. And then,
perhaps just as importantly, they never said that Alan Wade
Wilmer Senior had been suspect number one in the disappearance
of Keith Collin. Cassandra Haley, I felt.
Speaker 3: Like that was a bombshell for the ages in this case.
It was one of those things that when you heard it,
when I heard it, it rocked me back on my heels.
As someone who has been invested in this case for
a number of years now, and I was trying to
do the math. Bill, I think you and I have
been involved in advocacy on this case since twenty fifteen,
so that means ten years now. Oh God, I know, right,
ten years now. I've been invested in this case because
I joined forces with you right before the thirtieth anniversary,
and now it's thirty eight years. So I think this
makes year ten for us as a partnership. Of all
of the many avenues that we'd explored over the years,
is it Fred Atwell, is it Ron Little? Is it
somebody unrelated to that. I had never heard or guessed
the name Alan Wade Wilmer Senior, and I hadn't given
a ton of credence to the waterman theory. But then
to learn that this guy, Alan Wade Wilmer Senior, was
responsible for not only Robin and David, but another individual
that we had never heard of, and then potentially Keith
Colin Sandy Haley, that knocked me back a couple of steps.
It was really not anything that I had expected.
Speaker 2: One of the things that really struck me at the
time and still resonates, is that my father Joe Thomas,
who passed away several years ago, was our family's liaison
to the FBI. Now, remember, Kathy Thomas and Rebecca Deowski
are the first two victims, as we all know. Remember,
for the first year, the other murders have not taken place.
It's not until a year after Kathy and Becky are killed.
They're killed in October nineteen eighty six. September nineteen eighty
seven is when Robin Edwards and David Knobling are killed.
That case, thankfully, is now solved. One of the things
that really stuck out for me was my father told
me the Waterman story, or as we've sometimes called it,
the driveway story, repeatedly. And now now I can't tell you.
It's been so long. I can't tell you if this
was before or after Robin and David were killed in
September nineteen eighty seven. And I can't tell you for
sure if it was before or after. Keith Collin. Cassandra
Haley went missing in April nineteen eighty eight, somewhere along
those lines, but well before Anna, Maria Phelps, and Daniel
Lowerd disappear in Incident number four, which is September nineteen
eighty nine Labor Day weekend. At some point, my father
told me a story which he repeated numerous times because
we kept coming back to it. He told me that
the FBI agents in charge of my sister's case had
said that they were looking at two watermen who were
brothers who lived in Lancaster County, Virginia. We never knew
their names, but we knew that these FBI agents rolled
up on Wilmer's home family home and found him in
the driveway cleaning out using solvents and we believe repainting
parts of the interior of this very distinctive nineteen sixty
six Dodge Dakota truck. And they were convinced, these two
FBI agents that they had identified a likely suspect in
the Colonial Parkway murders. Now I have to guess here,
since we know that after Keith and Sandy disappeared in
April nineteen eighty eight, within days, that's when the agents
began looking for this very distinctive truck because couples reported
they had been harassed on the Colonial Parkway by a
man driving this very distinctive pickup truck with this very distinctive,
elaborate rig on the back of the blue green pickup
truck with riding.
Speaker 5: On the doors. This is a one of a kind.
Speaker 2: There was no other truck out there that's going to
look like this, and this truck was a classic in
nineteen eighty eight. It was already then, what twenty two
years old. But it's then that he Alan Wade Wilmer
Senior moves on to the radar. We believe that his brother,
William Keith Wilmer, who goes by his middle name Keith,
who's still alive, was the second person who was questioned
in this case, but we don't.
Speaker 5: Know that for certain.
Speaker 2: My guess is that my father telling me this driveway story,
which then led to Wilmer being brought into custody, questioned
search warrants issued federal search warrants of his property as
family's home, and that led to him being given two
polygraph examinations. One he passed and one was inconclusive. In
other words, you can't tell if the person is lying
or telling the truth, kind of no definitive answer. This
means that Wilmer was not just on the FBI's radar,
he was actually, I believe, the leading suspect in the
disappear into Keith calling Cassandra Haley Bill, I'm going to.
Speaker 3: Ask you a question that I actually don't think i've
asked you before. Are you aware, because I know at
some point or another you took over being the family
liaison from your dad, and you took it over, I'm sure,
much to the FBI's chagrin. I wonder if they would
have preferred to deal with your dad. But I am curious.
Do you know did your dad ever follow up with
any of the case agents about the driveway story? Did
he ever call and say, hey, you guys were telling
me about that guy, what'd you find out about him?
Do you know if he ever?
Speaker 2: My father did speak with the FBI about this numerous times.
My father came to the understanding that they had moved
these two suspects, which we believe are the two brothers,
onto the less likely list because of the polygraph result.
Speaker 5: We were told.
Speaker 2: They had given them polygraph examinations, and the investigation continued,
and of course the murders continue as well. First of all,
we have Teresa Lynn Spaw Howell, who's murdered in July
nineteen eighty nine, and then in August September Labor Day weekend,
we have the disappearance of Anna, Maria Phelps, and Daniel Lauer.
The investigation continues at that time and suspects continue coming forward,
and as far as we knew, the watermen were put
to the side because the FBI, for whatever reason, didn't
seem to regard them as leading suspects.
Speaker 3: Very interesting. One of the things that I would love
to eventually hear from myself. And maybe I don't know,
maybe one of these days, once this case is fully resolved,
you and I will get to look at case files,
write the whole book. That entire thing. Yes, I would
love to know who came to the four after that
was so entirely worthy of the FBI's attention, that made
them go, you know what, let's put these guys off
to the side, which, as we know now, Wilmer he
did do it. He murdered Robin, he murdered David, he
murdered Terry. We know that he is a killer. I
just wonder what made them go, you know what, move
on to the next thing. Who came up onto their
radar that made them go, you know what, we're putting
these guys aside. We got to go after this person instead.
Speaker 2: It's a question I would love for us to see
the answer to. I'm not sure. Dozens of people have
come up over the years, and as recently as January
twenty ten, which is the last time the FBI had
the families in for a group meeting, and I'm pretty
shocked about this. That was fifteen years ago. The FBI
has never brought the families back together for a meeting.
I want to be clear here. They've spoken to us
individually numerous times. And there was a period of time
several years ago when I spoke to our case agent
every week for probably a year or more. If we
had not spoken during the course of a week, she
would call me on Friday and we would typically spend
an hour every single week going over what the latest
developments were. Over that period of time, one hundred and
fifty persons of interest were developed. Obviously, they can't all
be involved. Even the investigators have said to me, if
you've got one hundred and fifty persons of interest, that's
the long list. As you work those suspects, some of
them might remain on the short list, as they called it.
And I'm not saying there was an actual list. I
think they're just using a colloquial expression. But they said
that ten or fifteen people would be on the short
list that is, the most likely suspects, and a number
of them their names have become public. Some of them
are dead now, people like Fred Atwell, Ron Little and others.
It's pretty clear though, that at some point the watermen
get put aside, and that very unfortunately means that despite
the fact that Alan Wade Wilmer Senior was squarely in
the headlights of this investigation in nineteen eighty eight, for
whatever reason, which I believe may tie back into the
polygraph examinations plural, he seems to have been put aside.
Speaker 3: The one thought that I kept coming back to right
after all of this was revealed about Wilmer, and the
thought that I still keep coming back to is if
those polygraph results had been questioned, if he had not
been put aside, how many people might still be alive today.
Speaker 2: I have had the same thought. I was talking to
someone last night who knows this case well, and he
said the exact same thing now I have said, and
I will reiterate, if the FBI had done its job
properly in nineteen eighty eight, Teresa Lynn Spawhowell would be
alive today. She died in summer nineteen eighty nine, and
we know for a fact that Wilmer is her killer.
What I'm leaving open because I honestly don't know the answer.
Anna Maria Phelps and Daniel Lauer were killed and their
bodies were dumped at this hunt club off Interstate sixty
four in New Kent County. I don't yet know of
any forensic or other link that gives us a clear
indication that Anna and Daniel's killer is Alan Wade Wilmer, Sr.
Or some other offender. I'm not overlooking them. One disappointing
bit of news is we seem to be having some
news on the horizon, is what we've been told by
the FBI and the Virginia State Police. But I haven't
heard much in the Phelps lawer murder about any significant developments,
which is very disappointing.
Speaker 3: It is in another thing, because we have come almost
a year full circle. I've been disappointed in the fact
that after that one spate of news, there has been
nothing else. There has been no other information given to
the press or just given to the families about anything
that was found at Wilmer's residence about potential connections to
weather cases. We have extrapolated in our live events and
at Crime con that there are probably any number of
other cases that could be pinned to Wilmer. I still
think that it's very likely that Loriann Powell and Brian
Pettinger's cases might be linked to Wilmer. We think Mary
Harding might be linked to Wilmer. I had really hoped
as the months and months and months progressed of twenty
twenty four, that we were going to hear something about
what had been found on the FBI raids in Wilmer's house,
and we've heard nothing. We haven't heard a single thing.
I would say that's probably the most disappointing part of
twenty twenty four for me with relation to this case.
I had other disappointments in twenty twenty four, and some.
Speaker 2: Significant conversations for another day.
Speaker 3: Yeah, significant other stuff happened in twenty twenty four, But
the biggest source of disappointment for me with this case
is that we had news and then nothing, and it
was like we were the only ones talking about it.
Speaker 2: The FBI and the Virginia State Police did respond to
our significant objection to what they said on January eighth.
They did admit in a very low key way, which
is so typical of the FBI, that Robin Edwards and
David Nobling were part of the Colonial Parkway murders, and
of course they'd done everything they could not to mention
the Colonial Parkway murders, and it felt deceptive. Now the
families have been in touch with the investigators, the FBI families,
that is, Thomas Dawski, Call and Haley. Those four victims
are all FBI cases because they happened inside the Colonial
Parkway National Park. The other cases, Robin Edwards, David Nobling,
Anna Maria Phelps, and Daniel Lauer are Virginia State Police
cases because they happened off the Colonial Parkway. But the
FBI families Tomastowski, Call and Haley were told earlier this year.
So this is in September twenty twenty four. We were
told to expect new advanced forensic test results in October
for the Call Haley disappearance and November for the Tomas
Stowski murder. We have received some word that there has
been progress in Call Haley, which is very exciting and
we would be thrilled if they can announce a resolution,
a solve answer for our many questions. We've heard nothing,
absolutely nothing on Thomas Dowski. Now I'm not necessarily the
most patient person in the world, but we've been waiting
for Angels Second for thirty eight years. Here we are
in a couple of days, two days after this podcast launches,
it'll be a year since that press conference you were
just discussing. We understand that new leads have been developed
and that there are new avenues that need to be explored.
We get that, but again, another year has gone by
and we still don't have answers, and the results that
we were promised in October for Carl Haley and November
for Thomas Dowski have not materialized. So you can understand
our frustration. We just feel like we're always waiting. The
last time I reached out to our case edge and
it was I have no update, So what's up?
Speaker 3: Thirty eight years is so long. I don't think people
can understand the sheer scope of time that you have
been living with this tragedy. Now, the longer that it
goes with no answers, I'm sure this is actually almost
worse than the thirty eight years prior to this, because
now you know they're so close they had somebody. I'm curious.
I don't think I've asked you this one before, but hey,
there's no time like the present on our podcast publicly
to ask you this question. When Wilmer was announced as
the killer for Robin, David and Terry, did you, in
your heart of hearts have some sort of feeling that
he might be the person responsible for Kathy and Becky?
Was there anything and like your brother's intuition that just
kind of ade you go, Oh, I bet it was
this guy? Or did you really have to think about it?
Speaker 2: I was certainly open to it as soon as we
heard his name, which, as we discussed, you and I
had heard this from other sources several months prior and
had said nothing publicly on this podcast or anywhere else.
As soon as I heard his name and started getting
some background on him, I realized, Oh, this is the waterman,
this is the guy with the brother, and this is
two people from Lancaster County that were questioning and search.
Warren's issued two polygraph examinations given to at least Alan
Wade Wilmer Senior.
Speaker 5: I'm not sure about the brother.
Speaker 2: It certainly crossed my mind that this guy could be
responsible for all of the Colonial Parkway murders. Alan Wade
Wilmer Senior meets the FBI criteria for a serial killer.
He's killed three or more people in two or more
separate incidents that we're aware of. And then his name
and the Wilmer name have been mentioned repeatedly for a
series of unsolved rapes and murders up in Lancaster County
and surrounding areas as far back as the nineteen seventies.
So it occurred to me that Wilmer could be responsible
for all of the Colonial Parkway murders, especially since we
realized it's Wilmer who is immediately linked to the disappearance
of Keith Colin Cassandra Haley.
Speaker 3: When we got this information about Wilmer and we were
starting to put together he's the waterman, this, that, and
the other thing. I realized on my long drives to
and from school, because I have half an hour drive
every day, twice a day. I started finding myself trying
to piece the case back together, extrapolating from new information,
how might this have went down? We know what happened,
We're pretty sure we know most of what happened with
Robin and David and with Terry. One of the things
that I did find myself going over again and again
was if it was Wilmer, where did he run across
Keith and Sandy. If Wilmer is the person who killed
Kathy and Becky, how did he come across them? Did
he come by boat? Did he come by truck? Did
he try his police impersonator bs on them? I have
spent so many times back and forth on these long
drives up and down Inner Sate sixty four because I
can't go on the parkway right now. They're doing this
massive rehab project. So rather than my beautiful drive home
along the white, scenic, beautiful parkway, I don't get that anymore.
Twice a day I get Interstate sixty four with all
of its traffic. I hate that. I want the parkway back,
but that's neither here nor there. I have found myself
spending a lot of time trying to reconstruct for myself
based on this new information. Now, what do I know?
What do I think I know? And what are my
new questions? Is that something that you find yourself doing
as well?
Speaker 2: It does, because certainly the introduction of Wilmer my name
linked via DNA to Robin Edwards, David Nobling, and Teresa Howell.
You begin to say to yourself, does it end there?
Or is this guy and potentially other accomplices does he
link into some of these other murders. Immediately you start
thinking about the Call Haley disappearance and they've been gone
for what thirty six years? I think it'll be thirty
seven coming up this spring, and he's an extremely likely
suspect in the Call Haley disappearance. Now you're checking more
and more names, and you're saying to yourself, Wilmer and
potentially accomplices are responsible for maybe it's three murders so far,
and you could be adding Keith and Sandy as a
fourth and fifth murder. You're listening to mind Over Murder.
We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors.
We're back here at Mindover Murder. There seems to be
some sign that Wilmer was also questioned in Kathy and
Becky's murder, which would have been back in eighty six.
Now you're starting to realize could be seven. When you
start taking a look at the homicide of Anna Maria
Phelps and Daniel Lauer, and Wilmer's lifelong interest in hunting.
The two victims are found at a hunt club off
Interstate sixty four, which, oh, by the way, is one
of the ways you would come down from lank County
down towards the Colonial Parkway area, where we know he
was working as a waterman and often living on his boat,
the Denny Wade, and sometimes also living in a what
essentially was like a boarding house down in Hampton area.
The Interstate sixty four route that goes right past the
rest stop where we believe that Anna and Daniel had
stopped and may have interacted with someone, and then a
mile or so further down the road is the turnoff
for the hunt club in New Kent County. And then
of course the car is found in this very odd
juxtaposition on the opposite side of the road that is
heading back in the direction of travel. But you realize
that would have been a route that Wilmer would have
known extremely well, because that's one of the ways you
would drive from his home base in Lancaster County down
to the Williamsburg area.
Speaker 3: It suddenly does start adding up. Now, it turns out
with the addition of two Harry Howell, we have nine
victims in the Colonial Parkway murders. If it turns out
he's responsible for Thomas Dawski, Carl Haley, Phelps Lower and
Robin and David and Terry, that's nine. We bring in
Mary Harding, which the folks in Lancaster seemed to very
strongly feel as a possibility. We're up to ten Amber
Lundgren down in Ashville, which had a suspect sketch and
a truck sketch very similar. Suddenly you're up to more
and more, and you start to wonder, how long has
this guy been doing this, how long has he been
so successfully flying under the radar, and at what point
could he have been stopped entirely if someone had just
looked at that polygraph again and said, you know what,
there's something weird with this guy.
Speaker 2: And then if you throw in Brian Pettinger and Lorian Powell,
both of whom were murdered, stabbed to death, bodies dumped
in rivers.
Speaker 3: Bookended around cal Haley exactly.
Speaker 2: The disappearance of Keith and Sandy is right in between
the brutal murders of Brian Patton Jour and Lorian Powell.
You start to realize there are a lot of potential
links here. What's frustrating is the communication, particularly with the FBI,
has been so terrible in terms of keeping the families
posted because we've been waiting for so long, and then
we have this major case announcement on January eighth, twenty
twenty four, which is handled in a very odd way,
with little if any acknowledgment that we're talking about the
Colonial Parkway murders. We even saw the advance press advisory
that there was going to be a press conference and
the FBI is doing something. They did it that day,
and then they did it later when they made the
announcement of the solve in the Shenandoah National Park murders
of Julie Williams and Lolly Winings, which is they're announcing
these press conferences on extremely short notice, like couple of hours.
A number of reporters, especially national reporters who might not
necessarily be based in Virginia often based in DC, said
to us, if they had made it clearer that this
was the Colonial Parkway murders, we would have covered that
press conference. But they never said it was the Colonial
Parkway murders. And if they gave us more than two
freaking hours notice. You have to understand those of you
that are not in the news media, the reporters and
the camera crews, are given assignments every day. In other words,
here's the story you're going to cover, and here's where
you're going to go. And there's a news director and
an assignment editor who send these people out or they
tell them this is the story that you're going to cover.
Speaker 5: With two hours notice.
Speaker 2: That actually ensures that these stories will not receive a
lot of coverage and will not receive a lot of
national coverage. And I have to say, I've been in
the entertainment business and the news business for decades. This
is deliberate. And I'm calling the FBI out on this.
You've done it over and over again. It's very clear
you don't like talking about the Colonial Parkway murders, and
you don't like the fact that we are outspoken in
our discussions of the Colonial Parkway murders. And I don't care.
I'm calling you out on this, pulling this crap, and
I'm waiting to see I'm hoping that we're going to
see a significant case announcement in the coming months.
Speaker 5: In the Colonial.
Speaker 2: Parkway murders, I'm waiting to see how they handle this.
Are they going to give us sufficient notice? I don't
live in Virginia, as we've discussed, I live in Connecticut,
so I either you need to drive or fly to
Virginia in order to be there for any kind of
press conference.
Speaker 5: Are they going to give us any kind of notice?
Speaker 3: Yeah? I would hope if there's going to be a
solve in your sister's case, they would at least allow
you to be there. And that would necessitate I'm calling
and saying, hey, you've got twenty four hours to get
to Virginia. We've got a press conference. I would hope.
I don't know.
Speaker 2: I get very skeptical of what's transpired. The Colonial Parkway
murders press conference was called on extremely short notice. And
let's be honest, these cases are over thirty years old.
It isn't like we have to rush. This isn't a
fire that just happened. We've had a lot of crazy
things happen in the last couple of days, very sad
things New Orleans and Las Vegas, and a recent arrest
of this man in Smithfield, Virginia, with what they're saying
is the largest cash of explosives ever uncovered by the FBI.
I get the fact that when it's breaking news, oftentimes
there are going to be press conferences held on very
short notice. But this isn't that we've been waiting for
answers for now thirty eight years. You're telling me that
they can't give us heads up, and not just us
the families, I'm talking about the listeners to this podcast
and the American people.
Speaker 5: They have a right to know what.
Speaker 2: Went on when you see the same thing happening over
and over again, which is misleading press materials going out
no mention of the case by its proper name. We
didn't name this thing the Colonial Parkway murders. That's actually
a media concoction, but it is the name that the
public knows. These cases by press conference is called on
extremely short notice, and that's done very deliberately, and public
affairs people at the FBI who listen to this podcast
know I'm speaking the truth here when I say this
is being done deliberately and this is at best misleading.
Speaker 3: When we talk to our friend Kate Miles after the
break in the Shenandoah case, she had a really wonderful statement,
and it's an easy enough charge to follow. She said, FBI,
please show your work, show what you are doing. Be
transparent essentially, and we realize, of course, because we are
not new to the FBI radio, we understand that there
are things that you cannot reveal in the course of
your investigation. We get that, We totally do, but at
the very least explain your reasoning behind not being straightforward
about the call Haley Wilmer connection. Immediately, you're not going
to have a good explanation for it. It's going to
be that there was face saving involved, but still you
could at least own up to it. We are big
believers in transparency and accountability from our law enforcement agencies,
whether that is the FBI, state police, local police. It
is infuriating when it turns out that these things happen,
and we understand there's no good reason for them to happen,
but they still do. Anyway. These families have been waiting
for thirty eight years. The least that you can do
is offer them a little bit of dignity and a
little bit of grace by being fully clear and transparent
about what has transpired over the course of this case.
Is it going to look great for the FBI. Nope,
because mistakes have been made. But in the fullness of
time and in fairness to these families, own up to it,
admit it, and move on. That's the best thing that
you can do.
Speaker 2: And in both the Colonial Parkway murders announcement and the
Shenandoah announcement, the suspect was dead. Walter Leo Jackson, who's
a serial rapist, was the double murder suspect in the
Julie Williams Slolly Winan's murder. A very interesting parallel developed,
which is that after the FBI and the Virginia State
Police use the word closed referring to the Robin Edwards
David Knobling murder and the Teresa Lynn spaw Howell murder
as well, several journalists sent Foyer requests Freedom of Information
Act requests for more information. Now the suspect is dead,
there isn't going to be a trial. We're not protecting
anyone's civil rights because the suspect is gone. All of
a sudden, the FBI and the Virginia State Police started
backing up and saying, oh, we didn't mean that the
case was closed, because Obviously, if the case is solved
or closed, we should be able to read and hear
more about how the FBI, Virginia State Police, and other
agencies helped solve these cases. And all of a sudden,
they're saying no. At the same time, you mentioned our
friend Kate Miles, who wrote the book that helped move
the Julie Williams Lollywine in investigation forward. She requested additional
information and filed Foyer requests in that case, and they're
refusing to provide any information in the Shenandoah National Park murders,
also an FBI case because they happened inside the National Park,
and Walter Leo Jackson is dead too. Again, no trial,
no civil rights issues. We're not trying to protect mister
Jackson's privacy. He's been dead for several years. Foyer requests
go in, Foroyer requests are denied. What's going on here?
Speaker 3: It is frustrating on its best day to deal with
the FBI and other law enforcement agencies. And we're not
saying that all enforced law enforcement agencies are regularly difficult.
They're not. The Virginia State Police has done a magnificent
job handling a number of these cases across the Commonwealth
this year. They've really done an amazing job serving the
citizens of the Commonwealth. So we're not trying to lump
every single agency in, but dealing with the FBI on
the regular it's exhausting because you never know what you're
going to get. Are you going to get someone who's
willing to say, hey, I can give you some information, sure,
or are you going to get the freeze out the
ice out? The fact that it has been fifteen years
since a full group family meeting of the Colonial Parkway
murders families with the FBI, it feels insulting almost, and
I'm not sure if that's the right word, but since
Bill's not and I seem probably that is the right
word it is. It feels, as families of murder victims,
you are owed more than that than a once every
fifteen year group meeting. I would like to see them
uphold they're part of that relationship because it is a
two way street. You and I more you than anything else,
because you're the one who fields most of these tips.
Have provided the FBI with a number of different leads
that I would hope have helped to advent your sisters'
case and investigation. You didn't have to do that, but
you did. They owe you something in return. At the
very least, that should be a willingness to meet if
you ask for it.
Speaker 2: That's just my opinion, though the families will be asking
for another meeting, our first in fifteen years, he said,
through gritted teeth with the FBI in this first quarter
of twenty twenty five. I'm not a conspiracy theorist in
any way, shape or form, but I cannot count how
many times over the years, experts, people that know way
more about how these agencies work, how investigations move forward, forensics,
you name it. I cannot count how many times people
have said to me sometimes it feels like the FBI
doesn't want to solve the Colonial Parkway murders, because again,
people have said to me dozens and dozens of times,
this is a solvable case, Bill, your sister's case, Rebecca
Dowski's case, all of the Colonial Parkway murders are a
solvable case if they put in time, attention, and resources.
I don't know what it is. I don't know if
it's that the FBI is embarrassed about all the problems
in the Colonial Parkway murders, whether it's letting Wilmer walk
back in nineteen eighty eight when he was responsible for
at least three murders, whether it's the leak of the
crime scene photos in two thousand and nine, whether it's
the destruction of Kathy and Becky's rape kits as medical
waste per order of the FBI, and there's more. It
just goes on and on. You think to yourself, the
way for the FBI and the Virginia State Police as
well and all of their investigative partners to come out,
if not looking great, at least good, is to announce
who is responsible for these murders, Name the suspects plural
if there are plural suspects, if there's anybody who's still alive,
arrest them, move them towards trial, not doing anything, and
having us endure effectively another year of radio silence since
last January eight, twenty twenty four's announcements. It's in curiating
and it completely lacks the transparency that you were talking about, Kristin.
Speaker 3: We can hope that in the next couple of weeks
or months there will be some news in this case.
That is our hope always I'm sure that every day Bill,
you and the other families wake up hoping this is
going to be the day you get a phone call
that's going to be its own kind of agony. And
I'm sorry that's something you've had to endure for thirty
eight years. It's awful, but we can hope that eventually,
at some point or another, this is going to come
to a close as satisfactory close, and I'm hoping it
will be with the identification of Wilmer as the perpetrator
for all of these cases. Whatever news comes out, I
hope that the FBI is willing to be transparent, open
and honest about it, and that they can finally reach
a point where they can say, hey, we have closed
the Colonial Parkway murders cases. That is my hope for
twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2: I want to thank all of you for listening to
Mind over Murder. We really are appreciate your support. We
want to thank our friends at the FBI and the
Virginia State Police who listen to this podcast. We know
you have a lot of things to do, but somehow
you've decided listening to this podcast is important to your agency.
We welcome it, but please listen and try to heed
what we're saying. And we don't claim to know more
than you, but we sure would like to learn more
from you, and we hope to hear from you shortly
with what is the latest in the Colonial Parkway murders investigation.
Speaker 3: You've got lots more excellent content coming up for you
this year, so please stay tuned to mind Over Murders
throughout all of twenty twenty five. In the meantime, we
hope you all have a very happy, safe and healthy
new year. We look forward to talking to you again.
Thank you so much for listening to this edition of
Mind Over Murder. We'll see you next time.
Speaker 1: Your Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another
Dog Productions.
Speaker 5: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley.
Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois.
Speaker 5: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud.
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media.
Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram.
Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway
Murders on Facebook.
Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at
Bill Thomas five six.
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening. To mind over murder,