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Speaker 1: Welcome to Popcorn Psychology, the podcast where we watch blockbuster

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movies and psychoanalyze them.

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Speaker 2: My name is Brittany.

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Speaker 1: Brownfield and I'm a child therapist and I'm joined by.

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Speaker 3: Ben Stover, individual therapist, Hannah Espinozo, marriage and family therapists.

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Speaker 1: We're all licensed clinical professional counselors also known as therapists

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who practice out of Chicago. Even though we are licensed

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mental health professionals, this podcast is purely for entertainment purposes

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and to fulfill our love of dissecting pop culture and

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all forms.

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Speaker 2: Please remember that, even though we are all licensed therapists,

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we aren't your therapist.

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Speaker 4: If you are struggling with mental health symptoms, please find

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a local mental health provider.

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Speaker 1: Hi. Everyone, So we are finally talking about a Godzilla movie.

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We are specifically discussing Godzilla Minus one. This movie came

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out in twenty twenty three. It's gotten a lot of

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well deserved record ignition, even Oscars, and it has been

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requested several times. I think as soon as it came

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out and started gaining traction, we were hearing about it.

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So we are finally discussing it. We will be specifically

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discussing trauma war driven trauma. As this movie takes place

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immediately after and then a few years following World War Two,

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we will also be talking about moral injury, specifically shame

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and guilt. Along with that, we'll also be talking about

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collective trauma as this was a time in which Japan

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was going through a major identity shift as a nation

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following their loss in World War Two.

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Speaker 2: So we are following several people, but.

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Speaker 1: Mostly Koichi Shikashima, who is a kami Kazi pilot in

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World War Two who can't follow through with the kami

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Kazi action. He comes back to a military base where

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the mechanics are saying that his plane had a problem

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and that's why he couldn't fulfill the kama Kaze action,

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and he witnesses Godzilla take out all his comrades pretty

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much there on that island, and then we follow him

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as he enters back into civilian society post the loss

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of Japan and World War Two. The how's the word

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I want to say, the mistreatment he receives and the

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judgment he receives from his community because of his inability

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to follow through with his Kamakazi obligation. And then we

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also witness him try to establish a life if he

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can post all these experiences and then you know, fight

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in Godzilla.

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Speaker 2: So let's jump into kind of like the basics.

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Speaker 1: So this in a lot of ways is a war movie,

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and that we are working with a lot of characters

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that are obviously dealing with the trauma that is war.

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And so I think what is most obvious, and I

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think what a lot of people liked about this movie

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when they first experienced it was how well it betrayed

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post traumatic stress disorder specifically as we I think most

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of us witness it through the main character, Kowichi. And

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so I'm wondering, I'm gonna throw it to you, Hannah,

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what were some of the things that you saw that

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fit the criteria of PTSD with our main character.

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Speaker 4: So we see Koechi experience nightmares. We see him experience

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full body flashbacks where he actually thinks he's back in

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the situation that caused him to have a traumatic experience.

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Speaker 2: We also see him feel like the world isn't real.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I was gonna ask you about that because I

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know you're more familiar with association than I am. But

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it does seem like he has several moments of would

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you call that derealization. Yes, absolutely, Okay, could you explain

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a little bit for people listening what exactly I hate

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that word is so and I feel like I always

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have to like chew it when I say it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I know, I know.

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Speaker 1: So what exactly is the realization in the context of dissociating.

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Speaker 4: Essentially, it's feeling like the world isn't real, the world

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around you is unreal.

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Speaker 2: Or that you're not in the right timeline, or that

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things aren't what they seem to be, or that you're

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misperceiving things, or that things distort on you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I've heard people say who experience geralization, it can

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feel like you're in a movie or that the world

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around you is plastic. But with him, he asks, He

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has those moments like you're saying, like where he has

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these flashbacks or these nightmares, and he is asking people

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like am I really alive?

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Speaker 5: Yes?

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Speaker 1: He seems to keep having this recurring traumatic symptom of

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like thinking maybe he really did die in the war?

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Speaker 4: Yes, exactly, And we see him experience that many many

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different times, and we also see how it affects his

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family situation as well. We see how him you know,

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a part of having a PTSD diagnosis is also the

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depressive symptoms that come with that, and we see him

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really not wanting to connect with anyone. I think a

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part of that is because he doesn't feel real in

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some ways, and so I think that's a part of

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why he doesn't want to connect with anyone, and also

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because emotionally he feels like he's dead.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like a trippier aspect of PTSD that people

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don't talk about as much, that you can really feel

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disconnected from the world around you. Some contexts I didn't

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give when talking about the plot is when our main

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character comes back to his hometown, he immediately gets caught

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up with a woman named Nariko who is taking care

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of a baby that she just found. What's the baby's

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name again, Akiko Kiko. And so not only is he

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thrown back into society, he's also thrown into this odd

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family dynamic where Nurico just kind of like follows him

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home and then doesn't leave, and then it kind of

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goes to like two years later where they're all just

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kind of together.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, because I think in a lot of ways, I

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don't know that she could have survived without doing that.

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She couldn't oh for real, like that was a part

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of that was a part of survival mode for her

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and for a Kiko as well.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so, as you're saying, the part where a lot

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of I think a big part of how his PTSD

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also shows up, as you were saying, is that he's

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also part of this family unit that's not technically his

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but wants to be his, and he is not able

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to let them in. He really continues to keep them

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at arm's length for a good amount of time, both

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Noriico and Akiko, even though they very clearly care about

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him and they don't see him the way he sees himself.

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A criteria of PTSD can be negative thoughts about self,

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a lot of hopelessness, helplessness, things like that, and across

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the board we see I think every.

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Speaker 2: Symptom negative alterations to cognitions is the formal DSM language

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for it, and he clearly has those all over the place.

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He persistently sees himself as this shameful, undeserving goblin of

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a human and he keeps himself restricted from connecting to

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other people because of the amount of shame, guilt, blame

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he places on himself. He feels responsible. Part of his

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nightmares are seeing his parents burn in the fire bombings

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that happened in and around Tokyo. America was not kind

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to Japan. He in part of his flashbacks, recognizes his

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parents and most of the people in his neighborhood and

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why his entire neighborhood is decimated is because of firebombings,

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not the nuclear attacks. He's not in the cities that

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were nuclear attacked, but his city was firebombed and recognizing that.

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Part of him not completing his mission in his mind

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is the consequences that his family died and then he's

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left alone and that Japan lost the war. He places

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a good deal that blame on himself.

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Speaker 5: Let's take our first break here and be at back.

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Speaker 2: As always.

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Speaker 1: If you enjoy listener to our podcast and would like

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to let us know and let other people know about us,

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the best way to do that is to leave a

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review wherever you listen to podcasts. We really appreciate it

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and it is truly the best and cheapest way to

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support us and actually get our name out there to

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people that may not have listened to us yet.

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Speaker 5: So thank you, all.

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Speaker 1: Right, Ben, So, where you were going is going into

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the cultural context and the moral injury aspect of specifically

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his PTSD, because what you're starting to go into is

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the context that is very specific to this situation, to Japan,

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to being a kamikaze, to the situation that Armin character's in,

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where he gets blamed repeatedly by people around him that

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it is his faults that this stuff didn't happen. Like

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when he shows up in his neighborhood, he gets smacked

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around by the neighbor Ko, Samiko.

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Speaker 5: You're really great with these names, girl, I appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: He gets smacked around from Semiko and she pretty much says, like,

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my kids are dead because you are a coward. The

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fact that you exist and you're staying in front of

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me means that you're a piece of shit and a coward.

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Speaker 2: Yep.

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Speaker 5: And because of you, my kids are dead.

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Speaker 1: And he gets the pretty much the same reception by

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Tachibana when he touches down in his plane the very beginning,

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when they realize that his plane doesn't have any problems

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and that he.

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Speaker 2: Was he chickened out of his mission, he was a coward.

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As far as how he's seeing himself, he is a

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product of his society. That's the voice he uses. She

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is an externalization of that and represents the cultural value,

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which is important, but remembering that that is internal and external.

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The voice of oppression from inside. Negative alterations to cognitions

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and mood are the internal mm hmm. The societal crushing

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from the outside is the shaming, yes, but the guilt

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is over his own inaction, and recognizing shame is generally

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for what we did do. Guilt is what we didn't.

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With Kuchi, one of the things it's important to recognize

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that he's going to have the internal and the external

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pressures and holding him accountable for what he was unable

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to do and the cowardice he showed. He it's important

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to remember that he not only failed once, but he

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failed twice. Right at the beginning of the film, when

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he lands his plane, he is retreating from his mission,

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which is understandable, but don't get me wrong. Like his

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mission is to blow himself and his plane up attacking

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an American ship. That's his mission. He is not expected

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to survive, which culturally is supposed to be a tremendous

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act of honor. However, human instinct and the culturation don't

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always agree. As the prime directive if any living creature

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is to stay alive, and when you're being asked to

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do something that makes you unalive, as honorable or not,

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as a culture may present it. When it comes to

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the moment of and knowing you're going to die if

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you do it, your body and your mind may disagree

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with your culturation. Yeah, slangle.

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Speaker 1: People always say if that ever happened to me, I

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would do this, and it's like maybe, but you're not

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going to know for sure until something like that happens

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to you.

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Speaker 2: Correct, Correct, I cannot stand that. Yeah, the number of

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people that walk around with that nonsense, like, well, if

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somebody broke into my house like blah blah blah, you

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do exactly whatever you had to. Yeah, you don't know

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what you would do. However, whoever broke into your house

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was six foot eight and built like a brick shit

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house and caught you unawares. You ain't going to be

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who you think you're going to be. Yeah, because if

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that person thoroughly dominates you, you're going to lose that

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and you don't know how that's going to feel and

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what you're going to think or do and what choices

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you will make when you have to because when you

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don't have to, you don't access the same structures of

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your brain. You just don't. And you know, he Kuchi

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here in this perceived accurately that there wasn't a lot

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of war left. The war was clearly lost by this point,

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the war was in its last days. This attack and

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loss of his life would have no purpose. And with

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that knowledge, he claims that there's a malfunction with his

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weapon lands his plane on a remote repair island. However,

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as the as you guys mentioned before, the mechanics who

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are there are like, ah, so sir, we can't find

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any problems with your plane. Yeah, and I'm sure he's

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not the only one, probably not.

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Speaker 1: You know, I was reading when I was reading a

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little bit about kamikaze piloting prior.

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Speaker 5: To this episode.

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Speaker 1: They were talked about that and how people would come

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back a lot, and how one guy even came back

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so many times that I think he ended up getting executed.

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Speaker 2: Displaying cowardice would not be tolerated in Japanese culture, especially

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not within their warrior ethos, just would not be tolerated.

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So yeah, it'd get executed. That makes sense for what

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would have been cultural appropriate at that time and throughout

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much of their history, showing that kind of cowardice in

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the face of an enemy would not be looked upon favorably,

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not in any military but especially not theirs. And not

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only does he do that, so he fails the country,

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but when Godzilla attacks, the mechanics tell him to go

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get in his plane because the twenty millimeter cannon on

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it can kill anything. They tell him. He gets into

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the plane, and he does not fire his weapon on Godzilla.

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And because he does not fire and does not follow

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through with the plan, that is a second military action

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that he does not take out of cowardice. So he

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sees it. It's not my words, that's me speaking through

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his right. I don't hold any blame for somebody that

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doesn't do something that will make them die.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and something that is also so totally removed from

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how we behave as humans outside of.

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Speaker 2: War, correct and war or attack, any life or death situation.

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Any assumption that I understand how he was feeling, how

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he behaved, how his senses were reading the situation is unfair.

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So I am echoing the voice that I think he

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is Shane showing himself. I just want to be super

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clear about that it's my it's not my values, it's

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his that I'm echoing. Yeah, because the reality, like we

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establish is that someone who is about who understands that

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any action I take against a monster here is the

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same example I gave of some six foot eight brick

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shit house of a dude breaking into your house. And

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no matter what ideas you think you have about yourself,

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your body's going to tell you you're going to lose. Unless

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you are also built like a professional wrestler, you're in trouble.

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And if you can't get to a weapon to equalize

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that fight, you're in trouble, and your body will recognize

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that and you will submit surrender. Fawn talk. You ain't

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going to be Captain Badass roundhouse kicking this dude in

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the face, because what you're going to see about him

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is that he is a clear head and shoulders taller

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than you and much broader, and that if you get

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in a physical fight, you're going to lose. Now translate

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that to a giant fucking monster.

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Speaker 4: That also that he's seeing for the first time, that

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they're all seeing for the first time. It would make

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a lot of sense that anyone would not be able

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to follow through with what they needed to do well.

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Speaker 1: Also, I would say for him, it's not that something

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bonkers is happening in front of him that his brain's

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trying to process like a godzilla has risen from the sea.

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He also is in the middle of a full trauma

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experience already, like he is going through something like he's

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fresh off of coming back from the Kama Kaze experience,

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you know, like getting out of his plane. So his

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brain's probably already in a frozen state, and then this happens,

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so of course he cannot.

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Speaker 2: Follow through.

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Speaker 1: No, his brain is like scrambled eggs.

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Speaker 2: Correct, He's already compromised by yes, where he's at, and

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when emergencies arise, we can come in and out of that.

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That's part of what structural association is about, is we can,

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pretty much, no matter what we're going through, respond to

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a threat. How effectively we are able to do that

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is a different discussion. But once he has already displayed

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that freeze and flight response instead of fight, which he

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was supposed to cultually engage, it makes sense that he

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found that again quickly when faced yet again with insurmountable

301
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odds to which his action would not likely do anything.

302
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The important thing to know is that because he didn't

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follow through the plan, those men that courageously started firing

304
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small arms to distract the monster immediately died. Yeah, and

305
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that is really rough. They died, and Kouichi is the

306
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only other survivor of that attack, and he was hobbled,

307
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He was massively injured because he I think got a

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stepped on or thrown mm hmm.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well it's him and the Tachibana are like the

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two people that make it out and get rescued.

311
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Speaker 2: Tachibana right, yes, yeah, but he got his foot was Yeah,

312
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Tachibana's foot was broken, is broken and mangled like he

313
00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:03,079
got stepped on or thrown yea by Godzilla Wally. They

314
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were shooting rifles and then he was supposed to get

315
00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:09,519
in Kuici supposed to get in his plane and fire

316
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the cannon at it, which was the best weapon they

317
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had available, but still would have had no effect, as

318
00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:17,440
we learned later, it would have done nothing. Yeah, and

319
00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:20,599
that's the truth, and his senses would perceive that like, yeah,

320
00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:22,440
I don't think this is gonna matter either, So he

321
00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:25,839
freezes and hides, which is probably what would have happened

322
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in real life, somebody looked at that and maybe they

323
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would have fought, maybe not, maybe they would have used

324
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the opportunity to hide. But that's not a conscious choice.

325
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A conscious choice that is trained out of you can

326
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override that sometimes, but once the odds tip beyond your training,

327
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like something like a monster you see, your senses will

328
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but reoverride training and throw you back into a response

329
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from your body that says nope. We assess that is

330
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a nope nope, and you freeze, You shut down, and

331
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go ah, I'm not attacking that unless it sees me,

332
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and right now it doesn't suit me. So I'm a

333
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hide because hiding makes more sense based on the sensory

334
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inputs I'm getting from my eyeballs. And it's really important

335
00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:22,200
that we understand that. Because senses communicate directly to the

336
00:20:22,279 --> 00:20:26,079
right side of our brain, which is where the response lives.

337
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Reaction is based on perception. Reality is from perception. So

338
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when we see that he froze, he froze twice. The

339
00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:41,720
amount of guilt he experiences not only the theoretical the

340
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cultural side, but the immediate of watching knowing I failed,

341
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then I failed again in the same way, and this

342
00:20:48,079 --> 00:20:55,200
time I actively watched people get devoured, mangled, destroyed by

343
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a kaiju.

344
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Speaker 1: Well, and then the added layer two of survivor guilt too.

345
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He's the only one besides Tatsubana that makes it out

346
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of that situation. So it's all these layers of guilt

347
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and shame that are just piling on top of him.

348
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Speaker 2: Correct, And because Tashibana survives when they're on that boat

349
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:26,960
ride back. Yeah, one, he had an incredulous experience that

350
00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:31,200
only one other person knows about. But he also can't

351
00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:36,039
talk about it, Yeah, or he'll seem insane. That's also

352
00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:41,519
very true. He can't really say why, and he is

353
00:21:41,759 --> 00:21:45,359
now bound by shame and guilt to not talk about

354
00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:50,240
it and practicality that hey, there's a giant dinosaur monster

355
00:21:51,279 --> 00:21:54,039
that lives on the islands. Notice he says that to

356
00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:59,680
no one, but that is the event that really drove

357
00:22:00,079 --> 00:22:03,240
the dagger into him with PTSD.

358
00:22:03,519 --> 00:22:08,039
Speaker 1: And also the secrecy too of not telling people are

359
00:22:08,279 --> 00:22:12,519
having to be very cautious about telling people that he

360
00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:15,000
was a kamikaze pilot. So it's a lot of things

361
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:19,480
he's keeping inside to avoid the consequences of sharing that

362
00:22:19,519 --> 00:22:22,079
with someone else and how that will change how they

363
00:22:22,079 --> 00:22:24,839
see him, takes.

364
00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:28,039
Speaker 2: Him a long time to talk about it.

365
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Speaker 4: I think he's still so activated on such a regular basis,

366
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I having those nightmares. It seems like he's having him

367
00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:34,359
every night.

368
00:22:34,759 --> 00:22:37,640
Speaker 1: Well, he says, the war isn't over for me yet, yeah,

369
00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:41,920
which is such a beautifully simplistic way to say what

370
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:45,640
we're talking about, which is that it is haunting him

371
00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:50,079
and he is still in that stuck place with his identity,

372
00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:53,799
with his shame and guilt. Because as we see, like

373
00:22:53,839 --> 00:22:56,960
through the course of the few years that the movie covers,

374
00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:01,039
which I thought was really interesting that people like his

375
00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:06,359
neighbor lady name again Sumiko, smiko're so awesome, Samiko. There's

376
00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:09,720
people around him that forgive him, that grow to love

377
00:23:09,799 --> 00:23:11,039
him and care about him.

378
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:15,640
Speaker 5: You know, people around him, they're they're able.

379
00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:19,440
Speaker 2: To shift, including Sumacole. Yeah that's what I mean.

380
00:23:19,559 --> 00:23:23,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, even her, who was a heinous to him, understandably

381
00:23:23,279 --> 00:23:27,039
so when he first got back, everyone warms to him

382
00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:31,839
and feels better about him, but he still can't feel

383
00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:34,880
better about himself, which I think is also like an

384
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,720
interesting thing to note that even when everyone around you

385
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:44,359
is giving you contradictory information, that internalized stuff can still

386
00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:45,960
eat at you for as long as it will.

387
00:23:46,559 --> 00:23:50,960
Speaker 2: That's what those negative alterations are. That's exactly what they

388
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,519
are and why it's so potent and powerful and why

389
00:23:54,559 --> 00:23:57,799
PTSD isn't the same as depression. Depression does that, but

390
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:04,680
PTSD does it with added life because depression is generally speaking,

391
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:10,279
a chemical deficiency that causes those feelings to exist. And

392
00:24:10,319 --> 00:24:14,279
there's not always an explanation. Sometimes there is, right, sometimes

393
00:24:14,319 --> 00:24:17,599
something happened that causes that. But depending on what that

394
00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:20,000
something that happened was, that's where we get in the

395
00:24:20,039 --> 00:24:22,079
kid or the criteria for PTSD.

396
00:24:23,079 --> 00:24:25,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, because with PTSD, the parts of it that are

397
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:28,680
you know, having low self worth things like that, those

398
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:32,480
are connected to an actual experience correct that you had.

399
00:24:32,559 --> 00:24:37,039
So it is a lot harder to challenge that idea internally,

400
00:24:37,079 --> 00:24:41,279
whereas when it's depression you can kind of hang on

401
00:24:41,319 --> 00:24:43,200
to more idea. This is coming from like an irrational,

402
00:24:43,319 --> 00:24:47,319
highly emotional place where my brain is working against me.

403
00:24:48,519 --> 00:24:51,680
And with this it's like, oh no, like something has happened.

404
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:54,559
Like I always told my clients, like it's like a

405
00:24:54,599 --> 00:24:57,559
door in your brain has been kicked open and it's

406
00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,519
never going to close. So there's like a reality. Now

407
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:03,079
that you are aware of that, you're never not going

408
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:05,839
to be aware of whether it's I'm not as safe

409
00:25:05,839 --> 00:25:08,559
as I thought I was, I'm not as brave as

410
00:25:08,559 --> 00:25:10,480
I thought I was, which I think is the situation

411
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:16,000
with our main character. And you will never not know

412
00:25:16,079 --> 00:25:19,480
that or that experience will never not be a reality

413
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:22,240
that's true to you versus someone who hasn't had that

414
00:25:22,279 --> 00:25:23,039
door kicked open.

415
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:25,480
Speaker 5: They can still live in that sort of.

416
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,440
Speaker 1: Surrealist idea of like, well, that could happen hypothetically, but

417
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:32,319
it doesn't necessarily feel real to me.

418
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:37,559
Speaker 2: And for someone that just said she didn't understand derealization,

419
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:39,079
super great, you just explained it.

420
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:41,599
Speaker 1: No, I know it, but I always well, I always

421
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:47,480
get derealization, depersonalization confused the word. Yeah, so I always

422
00:25:47,519 --> 00:25:49,920
want to double check that with someone like Hannah, who

423
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:56,000
I know is up dissociations academic but yeah, we're best friends.

424
00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:02,359
Speaker 2: Me too, girl, me too. Yeah, because that dissociation component

425
00:26:03,079 --> 00:26:08,440
is critical. All the criteria, all five categories for PTSD

426
00:26:08,559 --> 00:26:11,960
are necessary to make the diagnosis. They don't have to

427
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,519
have all the sub categories, but they have to have

428
00:26:16,279 --> 00:26:21,240
negative mood depression. They have to have avoidance. They have

429
00:26:21,319 --> 00:26:24,359
to have some degree of sensory disturbance, they have to

430
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:27,880
have some degree of sleep disturbance. There has to be

431
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:30,279
several things that add up.

432
00:26:32,839 --> 00:26:36,519
Speaker 1: And like I said, with him, what's also so upsetting,

433
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,279
like if you had to work with him, is that

434
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,880
all these negative thoughts he's having about himself that come

435
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:47,680
from this experience are then being reinforced by the environment too,

436
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:54,880
where people do hate him and slap him around and

437
00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:57,279
scream at him and say it should have been you,

438
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:03,680
And so that only further they're obviously strengthens these negative

439
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:07,759
self components and makes it hard to question them.

440
00:27:07,759 --> 00:27:09,000
Speaker 5: It just feels really real, and.

441
00:27:09,839 --> 00:27:12,680
Speaker 4: I think that he is in a place where it's

442
00:27:12,759 --> 00:27:16,279
hard to believe anyone about who he is and.

443
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:16,759
Speaker 2: What he is.

444
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:20,559
Speaker 4: People really feel like, oh, if you just be positive,

445
00:27:20,559 --> 00:27:23,559
if you just do this. People don't have the capacity

446
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:26,839
to absorb something positive. When the worst fucking thing that's

447
00:27:26,839 --> 00:27:31,640
ever happened to a person can happen, they don't have

448
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:35,680
the connection to that because now they're not real or

449
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:39,599
they're dead inside or whatever. It's not just something that

450
00:27:39,759 --> 00:27:42,559
is PTSD is not something that's just gonna magically fucking

451
00:27:42,599 --> 00:27:43,119
go away.

452
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:44,920
Speaker 5: It's not something that.

453
00:27:46,559 --> 00:27:48,119
Speaker 2: You can just be positive about.

454
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:49,519
Speaker 5: That's not how it works.

455
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,880
Speaker 4: That's just that's just not that's not even close to

456
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:56,720
touching what actually needs to happen when we're working with

457
00:27:56,759 --> 00:27:59,119
people who struggle through trauma, and he.

458
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:00,519
Speaker 2: Certainly, and we're also seeing him.

459
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:02,640
Speaker 4: Something else that I think is beautiful about the movie

460
00:28:03,079 --> 00:28:07,119
is that we're also seeing him have like the initial

461
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:10,680
experience right as soon as he gets back, he's shamed automatically.

462
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:14,160
He has PTSD symptoms very clearly, and then we get

463
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:16,039
to see him over time and we get to see

464
00:28:16,039 --> 00:28:18,640
how maybe those symptoms have changed a little bit, but

465
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:23,440
he's still experiencing pretty intense PTSD symptoms for how long

466
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,799
it's been from the time that things happen. And he

467
00:28:27,839 --> 00:28:32,720
also probably fits complex trauma, oh, certainly because of how

468
00:28:32,759 --> 00:28:36,279
many things happen all right in a row, right, because

469
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:40,160
so he has so the cowardice piece those two things

470
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:44,400
that happened. Then he all he sees all those men die,

471
00:28:45,039 --> 00:28:48,480
then he comes back. Then he comes back, finds out

472
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:52,200
that his parents are dead, his town is demolished, and

473
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:56,799
his neighbor doesn't like him anymore, demolished, and his country

474
00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:57,720
is also demolished.

475
00:28:57,759 --> 00:28:59,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, So.

476
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:03,279
Speaker 4: Everything every rug that he is standing on got yanked

477
00:29:03,279 --> 00:29:05,319
out from underneath him and then like buried him in

478
00:29:05,359 --> 00:29:05,720
a hole.

479
00:29:06,759 --> 00:29:09,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, all the foundations, all the pillars of his identity. Yeah,

480
00:29:10,799 --> 00:29:13,079
we're destroyed. Yeah.

481
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, like even just like the layer of demoralization of

482
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:23,880
being on the losing side of a world war that

483
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:28,279
we picked the wrong side and we were punished for.

484
00:29:28,279 --> 00:29:32,920
Speaker 2: It, and in their case of Japan, quite literally picked

485
00:29:33,839 --> 00:29:40,640
instigated to the point that their admiral, their chief, you know,

486
00:29:40,759 --> 00:29:43,920
leader of war, Emiallyammoto, said, I fear we have awoken

487
00:29:44,119 --> 00:29:45,519
a sleeping giant.

488
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:48,359
Speaker 1: But yeah, I think you're definitely right Handah, it's an

489
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,200
ongoing thing for him because he's still having to live

490
00:29:51,359 --> 00:29:56,400
in the town that is wrecked and having to figure

491
00:29:56,400 --> 00:30:00,119
out how to make money and how to support this

492
00:30:00,279 --> 00:30:03,839
woman and child that just like literally show up. So

493
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:07,839
it is like the stress is ongoing and.

494
00:30:08,079 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 2: Epic that not only does he not deserve, but if

495
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,599
he lets them in, he will poison them, yeah, with

496
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,559
his badness. So it's not that it's one more than

497
00:30:19,599 --> 00:30:27,240
the other, it's that it's both simultaneously, and that is

498
00:30:27,319 --> 00:30:36,480
an extraordinarily complex component of his traumatic symptoms and presentation

499
00:30:36,599 --> 00:30:38,920
and why it's so stuck and why Hannah is one

500
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,960
thousand percent correct that he meets the criteria for complex

501
00:30:43,319 --> 00:30:48,319
PTSD because the amount of events that happened, the degree

502
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:54,200
to which they happened, and the profound terribleness and overwhelming

503
00:30:54,359 --> 00:31:00,640
destruction of everything. But there is yet another component that

504
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:03,480
we need to talk about with why, and we'll talk

505
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:08,039
about that after a break. So the one component we

506
00:31:08,079 --> 00:31:11,279
haven't talked about, though we may have alluded to, is

507
00:31:11,319 --> 00:31:16,880
called moral injury. Moral injury is a component that affects people.

508
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:19,039
And I'm going to go ahead and read some of

509
00:31:19,079 --> 00:31:23,000
the things from the VA here from PTSD VA dot

510
00:31:23,039 --> 00:31:29,079
gov because understanding why sometimes some events that people go

511
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:33,519
through stay with them on what almost seems like a

512
00:31:33,599 --> 00:31:38,440
spiritual shaming level fits this movie and this character to

513
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:44,839
at he has violated things on levels beyond just humanity.

514
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:49,799
He has violated things to a spiritual level with himself.

515
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:56,240
From the VA, in traumatic or unusually stressful circumstances, people

516
00:31:56,279 --> 00:32:00,640
may perpetuate, fail to prevent, or witness events that contradict

517
00:32:00,839 --> 00:32:06,559
deeply held moral beliefs and expectations. That sounds pretty much

518
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:08,880
like our friend here does it not, it really does.

519
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,599
When someone does something that goes against their beliefs, this

520
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:15,799
is often referred to as an active commission, and when

521
00:32:15,799 --> 00:32:18,599
they fail to do something in line with their beliefs,

522
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,640
that is referred to as an act of omission. We

523
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:26,799
have both. Individuals may also experience betrayal from leadership, others

524
00:32:26,799 --> 00:32:29,720
in positions of power, or peers that can result in

525
00:32:29,839 --> 00:32:35,519
adverse outcomes. Moral injury is the distressing psychological, behavioral, social,

526
00:32:35,599 --> 00:32:40,319
and sometimes spiritual aftermath of exposure to such events. A

527
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:44,000
moral injury can occur in response to acting or witnessing

528
00:32:44,079 --> 00:32:48,759
behaviors that go against an individual's values and moral beliefs,

529
00:32:49,359 --> 00:32:53,839
and they go on later to describe guilt, shame, disgust,

530
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:57,480
and anger that are some of the hallmark reactions. And

531
00:32:57,599 --> 00:33:02,400
moral injuries also typically impact in individual's spirituality to the

532
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:06,400
point that a person may have difficulty understanding how one's

533
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:10,119
beliefs and relationships with a higher power can be true.

534
00:33:10,839 --> 00:33:14,480
Given the horrific event the person experience, leading to uncertainty

535
00:33:14,559 --> 00:33:19,519
even about their own previously held beliefs, it is quite

536
00:33:20,119 --> 00:33:27,039
a powerful, overwhelming sense of destruction of self. The events

537
00:33:27,079 --> 00:33:30,839
that we are describing pretty much nail this to a tee.

538
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:36,319
He has not acted in the way he is deeply

539
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:41,319
ingrained and sworn to do. Pilots are officers, they are

540
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,640
leaders of the military. He is looked at in a

541
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:48,759
position of honor that his sacrifice in war can take

542
00:33:48,799 --> 00:33:53,359
out an entire aircraft carrier. That aircraft carrier is the

543
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:58,480
only way that the planes that carried firebombs could get

544
00:33:59,039 --> 00:34:02,960
to his city. So how this all connects militarily is

545
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,720
pretty important because had he been able to take out

546
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:09,800
one of those carriers, there's a logical leap that his

547
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:14,079
brain can make a connection to maybe I could have

548
00:34:14,119 --> 00:34:15,320
prevented my parents dying.

549
00:34:16,039 --> 00:34:18,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, which is why his neighbor says that to him too,

550
00:34:19,159 --> 00:34:21,079
like my kids would be alive if you weren't here,

551
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:26,400
because of the importance that his position.

552
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 2: Was correct, and also her anger and grief that her

553
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:36,760
children are dead and everything is destroyed. She wasn't a

554
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:41,519
war fighter, so she was placing her hopes and beliefs

555
00:34:41,679 --> 00:34:45,039
and whatever propaganda was coming her way. Because don't forget,

556
00:34:45,079 --> 00:34:48,719
this is the forties. The world is so vastly different

557
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:52,320
on Internet communicating things, people were shown and told and

558
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:56,920
believed what the government wanted them to know, and it's

559
00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,960
likely they believed. I don't know exactly what the propaganda

560
00:35:00,159 --> 00:35:03,079
of Japan was during World War Two, but I assume

561
00:35:03,119 --> 00:35:04,280
it was not we're losing the war.

562
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:07,880
Speaker 1: Oh, of course not. I don't think that's anyone's propaganda.

563
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,880
Is hey guys, are we the bad guys?

564
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 2: Question work. But once the American military started capturing the

565
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:25,159
islands in the Pacific and moving up and getting closer

566
00:35:25,519 --> 00:35:29,280
and closer and seizing territory and figured out how to

567
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:33,320
engineer the B twenty fours to get to be able

568
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:37,880
to take off from aircraft carriers, which they detailed pretty

569
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:42,360
well in Pearl Harbor, the movie, that really changed a

570
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:46,039
lot about what the Japanese thought and how accessible they

571
00:35:46,079 --> 00:35:51,079
thought they were. And the America was developing to attack that.

572
00:35:51,159 --> 00:35:54,119
We were working on training bats, and the bats would

573
00:35:54,199 --> 00:35:59,719
roost in the eaves. So if the bats land on

574
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:05,519
the homes, then you detonate the bombs, sure, which means

575
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:11,320
they're not attacking in a way that can be there

576
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:12,480
can be any safety.

577
00:36:12,119 --> 00:36:15,840
Speaker 1: From I mean, it's an extraordinarily and humane method.

578
00:36:16,599 --> 00:36:21,079
Speaker 2: It's pretty bad. Yeah, it's pretty bad because you're not

579
00:36:21,119 --> 00:36:22,159
attacking military.

580
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 1: Targets the weh, you're attacking civilians, correct, and you're kin

581
00:36:25,039 --> 00:36:25,639
a lot of bats.

582
00:36:27,119 --> 00:36:27,760
Speaker 5: Also true.

583
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,679
Speaker 2: But if you can connect the dots of what kind

584
00:36:31,679 --> 00:36:36,360
of psychological warfare that was being undertaken against the country,

585
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:38,960
you can understand why she's so angry and why people

586
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:41,599
who are supposed to be their national heroes letting her down.

587
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:42,880
Speaker 5: Oh sure of course.

588
00:36:43,119 --> 00:36:47,119
Speaker 2: Oh yeah made her so furious because his betrayal and

589
00:36:47,159 --> 00:36:48,880
he's alive. Oh yeah.

590
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:51,079
Speaker 1: I think even for that reason alone, I could see

591
00:36:51,079 --> 00:36:54,840
her being upset with him absolutely, like how why are

592
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:57,599
you here? And my kids aren't correct, no matter what

593
00:36:57,719 --> 00:36:59,440
his position was in the army, but I think like

594
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:04,719
the cultural significance of his role in the army, it's

595
00:37:05,039 --> 00:37:08,960
just a further oh, navy, it's just a further plight,

596
00:37:09,079 --> 00:37:10,719
you know, blight on the situation.

597
00:37:11,079 --> 00:37:15,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, correct, all of which add up to he knows

598
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:18,480
all this. Notice he doesn't fight her, he doesn't tell

599
00:37:18,519 --> 00:37:20,239
her she's wrong, not the ones.

600
00:37:20,639 --> 00:37:23,599
Speaker 1: Oh I'm sure he's like this is correct. Yeah, do

601
00:37:23,679 --> 00:37:26,559
whatever you want with me, bay, I like, yeah.

602
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:29,480
Speaker 2: Which he does, and he does it to himself.

603
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:32,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, which I think is important to note that that's

604
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:36,679
also a way sometimes that people can engage in self

605
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:41,559
harm self destructive behavior when they're in these places with themselves,

606
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:45,239
whether it's PTSD, your depression. It's not necessarily the kind

607
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:49,639
of self harm that we think of, like intentionally hurting

608
00:37:49,639 --> 00:37:53,639
yourself via cutting or something. But it can be this

609
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:55,719
kind of thing too, which is like letting other people

610
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:59,440
hurt you like this, or being in situations where you

611
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:00,119
will be hurt.

612
00:38:01,519 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 2: Correct And it's such an extraordinary place of negativity that

613
00:38:10,079 --> 00:38:13,079
comes from the shame and guilt that they're doing it

614
00:38:13,119 --> 00:38:17,760
because they deserve to be punished for what they did

615
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:22,000
and didn't do, and that they will never be cleared

616
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:24,159
of it. And when he's saying the war isn't over

617
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:30,559
for me, is because encoded in him was a set

618
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:33,599
endpoint for the war, and he never completed his mission.

619
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:37,119
Now he never can. So that part of him that

620
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:42,840
he created dissociatively to assign value and meaning to his

621
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:47,400
own destruction through kamikaze bombing, he never got to do.

622
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:51,280
So all the suffering and everything that he went through

623
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:56,360
is a constant reminder and condition of threat and shame

624
00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:59,880
and guilt, the threat ongoing. I didn't do it, so

625
00:39:00,119 --> 00:39:03,559
I'm always bad and I can never be accepted back

626
00:39:03,599 --> 00:39:04,400
into society.

627
00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:06,159
Speaker 5: And I can't do anything to fix it.

628
00:39:07,039 --> 00:39:09,079
Speaker 2: And I can't do anything to fix it, and if

629
00:39:09,119 --> 00:39:11,920
I'm found out, I may be killed.

630
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:17,599
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, or even more shunned than I already am.

631
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:22,400
Speaker 2: So this beautiful woman and this beautiful child that calls

632
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:27,639
me daddy, Yeah, I tell her not to, even though

633
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:34,320
she doesn't have anyone else, And even his friends tell him,

634
00:39:35,679 --> 00:39:38,440
why are you saying I'm not your dad?

635
00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:38,920
Speaker 1: Yeah?

636
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:41,800
Speaker 2: Why are you being mean? Yeah?

637
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:42,360
Speaker 5: Exactly?

638
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:45,960
Speaker 2: They told me that. Do you know how damaging that is? Yeah?

639
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:47,440
Do you know how damaging that is to that child?

640
00:39:47,519 --> 00:39:50,119
She thinks you're your dad? You're dad? To her? You

641
00:39:50,199 --> 00:39:54,079
are dead? What are you doing? You're dead? You can't

642
00:39:54,159 --> 00:39:55,119
tell her you're not dead.

643
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:58,639
Speaker 1: And this is the part that because it's him that's

644
00:39:58,679 --> 00:40:02,119
still so in his lia trauma, that you can't really

645
00:40:03,519 --> 00:40:09,199
access him by trying to make that kind of argument, right, Like,

646
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:11,719
you can't rationalize necessarily because.

647
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:16,599
Speaker 4: You can't shame him for that behavior. He's already shaming

648
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:18,000
and guilty himself.

649
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:19,280
Speaker 2: Because he's like, well, a piece of shit, So it

650
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:23,000
makes sense he's not deserving and recognizing that he's so

651
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:30,880
deeply severed that he can't. He can't survive without or

652
00:40:31,079 --> 00:40:35,320
he can't he can't survive forgiveness because no forgiveness will

653
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:39,679
be real. He can never trust it because he knows

654
00:40:40,679 --> 00:40:46,079
that he committed unforgivable sense he used to be willing.

655
00:40:46,199 --> 00:40:48,239
Speaker 1: Well, it's corny to say this, he used to forgive

656
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:51,960
himself first, but that is the truth. He has to

657
00:40:52,039 --> 00:40:54,039
be open to the idea that he is forgivable.

658
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:58,360
Speaker 2: But part of where that gets stuck is in the

659
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:03,480
idea of structural association, recognizing that people form parts to

660
00:41:03,519 --> 00:41:07,480
survive the circumstances they're under. The more extreme the circumstance,

661
00:41:07,679 --> 00:41:11,400
the more extreme and or limited the part a war

662
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:15,519
fighter part of a human exists only for war fighting.

663
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:18,960
The things that you have to do to survive war.

664
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:21,840
The point of moral injury and understanding it and processing

665
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:23,800
it with people is that the things you have to

666
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:29,000
do to survive these extreme circumstances require an extreme response.

667
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:33,760
A military officer may have to order a company of

668
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:40,079
men a thousand people to their death so that nineteen

669
00:41:40,159 --> 00:41:43,159
thousand more have a chance to survive. But these thousand

670
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:46,320
are not going to and they will know that, and

671
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:48,679
they will know that they are pawns and they have

672
00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:52,519
to order them anyway. The complexity of this is immense.

673
00:41:53,079 --> 00:41:56,159
In his case in this movie, he had to order

674
00:41:56,239 --> 00:42:00,920
himself to death and he didn't and now he's facing

675
00:42:01,519 --> 00:42:04,679
the reckoning and he's shaming himself out of that. So

676
00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:07,280
I think it's a critical thing to mention. We could

677
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:09,400
go on a deep, huge dive and talk about moral

678
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:14,079
injury probably for hours, but recognizing that that is the

679
00:42:14,159 --> 00:42:16,480
component that is missing. If you don't understand that there

680
00:42:16,559 --> 00:42:18,679
is a word for that, you do now. And I

681
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:22,119
recommend reading more on it and looking it up because

682
00:42:22,159 --> 00:42:24,760
it is an incredibly important thing. I just did a

683
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:27,599
huge training on it that really opened my eyes that

684
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:29,719
I think more people need to do. And with the

685
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:32,880
people I supervise, I've been making sure to drive this

686
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:35,679
home because I've had a number of clients who've been

687
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:38,960
through a great amount of things that are more adequately

688
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:43,039
described by moral injury, and they are the key thing

689
00:42:43,159 --> 00:42:48,000
they're holding them against themselves. I hurt someone or so

690
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:51,679
did something that I can never forgive myself for. If

691
00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:57,280
people found out about what I did, my position in

692
00:42:57,360 --> 00:42:59,960
society that brings me safety now, no matter how much

693
00:43:00,119 --> 00:43:04,199
years I am away from this would be terminated. So

694
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:10,519
they are never safe. But if you believe strongly that

695
00:43:10,559 --> 00:43:14,239
the representative of God when you were about to walk

696
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:17,239
into heaven after death will still be there with a

697
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:20,480
ledger of all the shit you did at whatever point

698
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:23,239
in time in your life and be like, suck.

699
00:43:23,039 --> 00:43:25,920
Speaker 1: Bro Well, I mean yeah, I mean like the idea

700
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:27,599
of more I was raised Catholic, the idea of like

701
00:43:27,639 --> 00:43:30,199
mortal sins, that there are things that you do that

702
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:34,440
are unforgivable things and then once you do them.

703
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 5: You're fucked. You're going to go to hell.

704
00:43:36,039 --> 00:43:41,480
Speaker 1: Baby, Like this idea that there is unrecoverable choices that

705
00:43:41,519 --> 00:43:45,239
you can make, which sucks, and that, from what I understand,

706
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:47,519
a lot of religions have a version of that.

707
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:49,679
Speaker 5: And then because we are a very.

708
00:43:50,559 --> 00:43:54,639
Speaker 1: Religious based people, like a lot of argument cultures are

709
00:43:54,639 --> 00:43:57,840
based on that, of course, it translates into these things.

710
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:01,480
Speaker 2: Correct and to just tie this home and then I'll

711
00:44:01,519 --> 00:44:03,119
kind of we'll let this go transition away from it

712
00:44:03,119 --> 00:44:05,159
because there's a lot there's a lot of research being

713
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:07,400
done on that. There's even assessments for this. You can

714
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:11,760
get them from if you just google moral injury assessments,

715
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:16,000
you can find them from the VA even and I

716
00:44:16,079 --> 00:44:18,679
recommend that because I've had clients that I've sat down

717
00:44:18,679 --> 00:44:21,239
with these and done and I've been suspicious that it's

718
00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:23,440
a moral injury that's keeping them stuck. I don't deserve

719
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:25,599
to feel better. I don't deserve to move on from this.

720
00:44:25,639 --> 00:44:27,480
I don't deserve to heal because of what I did.

721
00:44:28,519 --> 00:44:31,159
And then I've given these assessments and they've been dead

722
00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:34,960
ringers ding ding ding ding ding ding ding, and it's

723
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:37,920
really opened up some eveinist discussion. And this would be

724
00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:42,639
necessary here yet again I will quote from this. Another

725
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:46,480
hallmark reaction to moral injury is an inability to self

726
00:44:46,559 --> 00:44:53,519
forgive and consequently engaging in self sabotaging behaviors. Examples feeling

727
00:44:53,559 --> 00:44:59,840
like you don't deserve to succeed at work or relationships. Yeah,

728
00:45:00,039 --> 00:45:03,280
you don't deserve to be happy, you don't deserve to

729
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:09,320
have a future, which prompts then derealization and depersonalization, because

730
00:45:09,599 --> 00:45:14,719
if I can't, if I can't be okay in this world,

731
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:18,000
then perhaps but I still exist in this world. Perhaps

732
00:45:18,039 --> 00:45:20,440
I am not real, or perhaps the world is not real.

733
00:45:20,599 --> 00:45:23,440
Perhaps I'm not on the right timeline. Perhaps I actually

734
00:45:23,519 --> 00:45:24,760
died in the war.

735
00:45:25,199 --> 00:45:27,400
Speaker 1: Well, I think it's just like a very ungrounded place

736
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:29,000
to be in if nothing else, like, if you're not

737
00:45:29,039 --> 00:45:31,840
connected to other people, you are just kind of walking

738
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:36,519
around the world, you know, with no anchors. That's an

739
00:45:36,559 --> 00:45:41,360
experience that goes against human instinct to gather and be

740
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:44,320
with others and be important to other people and to

741
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:46,079
experience those connections.

742
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:46,880
Speaker 2: Correct.

743
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:51,840
Speaker 1: So it would spin you out to be on the

744
00:45:52,119 --> 00:45:54,440
side of it that you're talking about, which is like

745
00:45:54,519 --> 00:45:58,239
I have to hold myself apart, which is something you do.

746
00:45:58,360 --> 00:45:59,199
Speaker 5: Hear a lot of.

747
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:04,079
Speaker 1: Vets talk about when they come home from active duty.

748
00:46:04,679 --> 00:46:06,719
It's like, I don't know how to be here. I

749
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:08,239
don't know how to be with my family. I don't

750
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:09,840
know how to be gentle, I don't know how to

751
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:11,840
be loving. I don't know how to like I don't

752
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:14,639
even want them to touch me, maybe because I'm covered

753
00:46:14,639 --> 00:46:18,480
in like blood basically yep. And it's not something that

754
00:46:18,519 --> 00:46:20,440
gets talked about a lot, which is good that we're

755
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:22,119
talking like you're talking about here, Ben, and we're talking

756
00:46:22,159 --> 00:46:27,400
about it is because it also just conflicts with not

757
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:29,440
so much in this case, but thinking of it in

758
00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:31,840
a more general sense of people that have seen war.

759
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:34,800
Is it conflicts with this idea that you've done something

760
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:37,760
honorable and now you're coming back and so you should

761
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:41,400
be like just relieved and proud of yourself. But in actuality,

762
00:46:41,599 --> 00:46:45,880
there's things you had to do in war that doesn't

763
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:50,119
just like go away. Nope, whether you get accolades or

764
00:46:50,119 --> 00:46:50,880
not for doing it.

765
00:46:51,559 --> 00:46:54,280
Speaker 2: And I think more importantly, I mean for this story,

766
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:57,199
Yes it's important to understand in war, but these things

767
00:46:57,199 --> 00:47:00,679
happen in our communities. These things happen to regular people.

768
00:47:01,639 --> 00:47:06,639
They happened to police, they happen to fire, they happened

769
00:47:06,679 --> 00:47:10,039
to Joe Schmoe on the street. Sometimes we have to

770
00:47:10,079 --> 00:47:10,840
make decisions.

771
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:13,400
Speaker 5: Well, I think it also just happens too.

772
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:17,880
Speaker 1: Like I work with people where because of bad situations

773
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:19,559
they were in when they were younger, maybe they were

774
00:47:19,599 --> 00:47:22,679
really violent to like their friends. Maybe they got into

775
00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:26,639
a lot of fights, maybe they were like sexually provocative.

776
00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:29,079
You know, like there are a lot of behaviors that

777
00:47:29,199 --> 00:47:33,039
could come out of trauma that then you will be

778
00:47:33,159 --> 00:47:35,400
acting out because what's going on within you.

779
00:47:35,519 --> 00:47:36,800
Speaker 5: And then it's like.

780
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:39,960
Speaker 1: I work with people where they're still holding themselves accountable

781
00:47:40,039 --> 00:47:42,480
for things they did when they were kids and teenagers

782
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:46,880
that they haven't done in like decades, correct, and they're

783
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:50,840
still like highly identifying with that version of themselves as

784
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:56,000
if they're still that quote unquote violent or aggressive or inappropriate.

785
00:47:56,760 --> 00:47:58,440
And so, yeah, you're right, it's not just this kind

786
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:00,159
of stuff. I think this is the most magnified vers

787
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:03,760
people have to go to war and do horrible things,

788
00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:06,519
and then I think it does also happens in the

789
00:48:06,559 --> 00:48:11,719
day to day when they're putting circumstances that create a

790
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:17,239
version of yourself that you don't want to be or

791
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:18,559
that you really aren't.

792
00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:22,960
Speaker 2: That doesn't exist in the civilian parts of you or

793
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:27,320
your core identity, right, but it's an extreme part that

794
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:29,960
is part of you. I think that's the part that

795
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:35,639
is really critical to highlight, to understanding this is all

796
00:48:35,679 --> 00:48:38,280
parts are part of us. They are all part of

797
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:40,920
the whole. They aren't different from you. And that's where

798
00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:45,400
people who go through these things understand it's really critical

799
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:50,000
to understand that language, because when we haven't had specific

800
00:48:50,079 --> 00:48:52,480
training to understand that or exposure to it, you don't know,

801
00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:56,719
but understanding they know it was them.

802
00:48:57,159 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I think it's the trauma also of like, oh,

803
00:48:59,519 --> 00:49:00,719
I know what I capable of.

804
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:02,639
Speaker 5: I think there's trauma there too.

805
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:06,000
Speaker 2: There is. It's a wound to your identity, Yeah, your

806
00:49:06,079 --> 00:49:08,559
moral foundation. I wouldn't never do this thing, but a

807
00:49:08,599 --> 00:49:14,199
situation emerge where I had to. Yeah, And it's it's

808
00:49:14,239 --> 00:49:16,920
critical to understand that that is a moral injury. It's

809
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:18,679
what it is. And the part of us that could

810
00:49:18,679 --> 00:49:22,199
do that was part of us, is part of us.

811
00:49:22,519 --> 00:49:25,239
Parts of us we form don't ever go away, not ever.

812
00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:29,519
They are an adaptation to the life you have lived.

813
00:49:29,519 --> 00:49:32,639
And even if you have lived twenty years beyond who

814
00:49:32,719 --> 00:49:37,239
you were as a troubled child or a soldier or

815
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:42,519
what have you, you still know that some version of

816
00:49:42,559 --> 00:49:45,960
you exists inside of you that could do those things.

817
00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:49,280
And it's critical to overcould people to understand where the

818
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:53,280
point you're going of like that was a limited circumstance

819
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:55,639
of you that existed for only a specific reason. It

820
00:49:55,679 --> 00:49:59,199
won't re emerge unless something like that it merges again,

821
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:02,119
but all they can processes it did. That's where we

822
00:50:02,159 --> 00:50:04,800
see him so stuck in this film, and it's really

823
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:07,920
really important that we understand that and understand how to

824
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:09,280
have language around that.

825
00:50:09,599 --> 00:50:10,039
Speaker 5: Yeah.

826
00:50:10,119 --> 00:50:12,679
Speaker 1: I mean, what's coming to mind is just like another

827
00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:16,440
very different example to help people who are listening kind

828
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:19,000
of get it fully. And this is gonna seem so random,

829
00:50:19,519 --> 00:50:22,360
but right now, well, the second the third season of

830
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:25,039
Yellowjackets just ended. That's where we are in time right

831
00:50:25,079 --> 00:50:28,159
now on the podcast is a recording and that show

832
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:31,480
I think is all about that that these group of

833
00:50:31,679 --> 00:50:34,519
kids or teenage girls got put into a context where

834
00:50:34,519 --> 00:50:37,679
they had to do banana stuff yep, that you would

835
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:39,440
never have to do. And how we see them now

836
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:45,400
as adults trying to or trying not to reckon with

837
00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:47,440
what we're talking about here, which is like I spent

838
00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:49,679
a good amount of time doing things that I would

839
00:50:49,679 --> 00:50:51,519
have never discovered I was capable of.

840
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:53,119
Speaker 5: And now what.

841
00:50:54,079 --> 00:50:57,920
Speaker 2: Correct or even a more popular example, because that's a

842
00:50:57,920 --> 00:50:59,760
great one that shows great with this.

843
00:51:01,159 --> 00:51:07,559
Speaker 5: Lieutenant Dan Oh he should have died in that war, yeah.

844
00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:09,320
Speaker 2: And he should have been protecting his men and he

845
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:12,920
couldn't execute his function and what his family expected him.

846
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:17,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, he had a very comic Cozi mindset, because generationally

847
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:21,079
his family had a very comic Cozi mindset that to

848
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:24,239
die in war is the only honorable way to die.

849
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:26,159
Speaker 2: A lot of cultures have that too.

850
00:51:26,559 --> 00:51:28,760
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean, if you think about even go

851
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:31,320
all the way back too, because I'm reading the Odyssey

852
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:35,920
right now. Not to brag, it's like, that's the big

853
00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:40,960
thing with like Achilles, right, like Raven Claude, damn it, dork,

854
00:51:43,199 --> 00:51:46,880
don't try to stomp on me. Hufflepuff is like, that's

855
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:48,760
the that's the tragedy if you want to think about

856
00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:53,000
like that of Achilles, like either he dies happy and unknown,

857
00:51:53,719 --> 00:51:56,559
or he goes to war and dies in battle for

858
00:51:56,639 --> 00:51:59,320
great honor and his mom's like, don't be fucking pussy

859
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:01,039
and to hear having a family, God, damn, you better

860
00:52:01,039 --> 00:52:03,760
go to warr and die. Yep.

861
00:52:04,119 --> 00:52:10,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, the hella here I come all these but I

862
00:52:10,239 --> 00:52:12,320
just think, I know it's a long section because it's

863
00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:15,360
a complicated topic, but I think it's really really vital

864
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:18,400
to understand that, and you know, we can let that

865
00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:19,719
rest there and take a break.

866
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:24,000
Speaker 1: Here, all right. So now we've been touching upon it.

867
00:52:24,039 --> 00:52:26,920
But a big theme of this movie, I think, especially

868
00:52:27,039 --> 00:52:31,719
in the second half, is the collective.

869
00:52:31,199 --> 00:52:35,480
Speaker 5: Trauma, the communal trauma of all.

870
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:39,599
Speaker 1: These people that are get like leftovers of this war

871
00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:45,320
time experience and then they're being put into a similar experience,

872
00:52:45,400 --> 00:52:49,880
which is a giant Godzilla has arisen from the ocean.

873
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:51,440
Speaker 2: And we got to go fight him.

874
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:53,880
Speaker 1: And also a big part of it, like we mentioned earlier,

875
00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:56,480
is there's a big shift and also national identity.

876
00:52:56,960 --> 00:52:58,920
Speaker 2: So one of the things that's happening in this film

877
00:52:59,519 --> 00:53:04,760
is that there's a couple things colliding. Which is what

878
00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:08,400
makes it such a brilliant film is the collision of

879
00:53:08,679 --> 00:53:11,960
impossible factors. Japan is on the losing side of this war.

880
00:53:12,599 --> 00:53:20,079
They have thoroughly lost, but their entire warrior warrior ethos

881
00:53:21,079 --> 00:53:27,840
is formed from the Bashido code and looking at how

882
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:30,800
important it is in their national identity to not surrender,

883
00:53:31,159 --> 00:53:34,559
to fight to the last breath, to the last person,

884
00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:42,800
to defend their home. They lost, and now not only

885
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:46,360
did they lost, but they're being disarmed and forced to

886
00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:52,400
be dependent upon the country that defeated them, who is

887
00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:55,039
not going to protect them or give them weapons to

888
00:53:55,079 --> 00:53:58,800
protect themselves at the same rate at which they would

889
00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:03,360
do so normally. Japan is not able to self defend.

890
00:54:04,119 --> 00:54:08,519
They're being disarmed. They're granted the ability to recommission one

891
00:54:08,599 --> 00:54:15,800
ship one ship to fight against Godzilla. They're disarmed and

892
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:21,480
being attacked. They are less capable and under attack again.

893
00:54:22,639 --> 00:54:26,880
So the collision of those factors is a huge component

894
00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:31,440
of this cultural identity and the collective trauma because all

895
00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:35,920
of Japan is under that condition. They are actively being

896
00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:39,880
attacked by a monster that's destroying their cities, but they

897
00:54:39,880 --> 00:54:42,280
don't have weapons and tools with which to deal with it,

898
00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:44,920
and the only ones that they are able to use

899
00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:49,639
are ones that they're told they can use. That's a

900
00:54:49,679 --> 00:54:54,599
pretty stark contrast from their national identity. Can you imagine

901
00:54:54,599 --> 00:54:57,039
if that happened here? Americans like I have all these

902
00:54:57,079 --> 00:54:58,599
guns and all these things, and.

903
00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:01,039
Speaker 1: Well, our culture won't to shut the fuck up about

904
00:55:01,079 --> 00:55:04,000
it even when it's not a threat. So yeah, we

905
00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:06,679
would implode nationally if that happened.

906
00:55:07,159 --> 00:55:12,119
Speaker 2: They're not different, right, and we're watching that they've lost.

907
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:16,559
Their ability to fight is not quite what they thought

908
00:55:16,599 --> 00:55:21,320
it was under the circumstances that existed, and now we

909
00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:25,480
don't have the means to even try because we're stuck.

910
00:55:26,599 --> 00:55:28,800
But we have to do it anyway because we still

911
00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:31,559
can't just let ourselves be consumed by a monster.

912
00:55:32,559 --> 00:55:37,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, so as we take it out from just Koweichi,

913
00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:39,159
and we kind of pull it out too, because one

914
00:55:39,159 --> 00:55:41,960
thing we didn't bring up is he starts working on

915
00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:45,920
a pretty much like a fishing boat. That's job it

916
00:55:46,039 --> 00:55:50,920
is to deactivate minds. Correct, Okay, just making sure I

917
00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:53,840
got that right. So it's built up of Doc, Captain,

918
00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:58,760
and Kid, and this Godzilla thing happens. Like I really

919
00:55:58,840 --> 00:56:01,440
like the scenes towards the last half of the movie,

920
00:56:01,519 --> 00:56:05,000
maybe even like the last third, where they are trying

921
00:56:05,079 --> 00:56:11,320
to convince now civilians to participate in this situation and

922
00:56:11,360 --> 00:56:14,440
nobody wants to volunteer, and I remember just thinking, like,

923
00:56:14,480 --> 00:56:16,400
of course they don't want to volunteer, like they're still

924
00:56:16,559 --> 00:56:22,440
fresh from this war that was deeply tragic, and they're

925
00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:26,599
also still in this very vulnerable position where it is

926
00:56:26,760 --> 00:56:29,760
likely that they won't make it if they have to

927
00:56:30,039 --> 00:56:32,000
attack this guy, and then you're asking them to volunteer,

928
00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:34,400
Like it doesn't shock me that everyone just kind of

929
00:56:34,400 --> 00:56:36,760
like shuts down. And I think that was a very

930
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:39,440
real representation of like, these people have been through it,

931
00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:42,400
they're still going through it, and now you're asking them

932
00:56:42,480 --> 00:56:46,519
to put themselves in this position that also you could

933
00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:49,760
if I want to take this farther where they were

934
00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:51,400
told like if you put your life on the line,

935
00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:53,679
which Stock says in that speech he gives. We were

936
00:56:53,679 --> 00:56:56,280
sold culturalist idea that if we put ourselves on the line,

937
00:56:57,400 --> 00:57:00,760
that that'll work out, and that's like morally good and

938
00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:03,280
I know I'm asking you to do that again when

939
00:57:03,280 --> 00:57:06,239
we've been in shambles as a country for years now,

940
00:57:07,519 --> 00:57:09,920
and it is a hard It's a hard motherfucking cell.

941
00:57:10,559 --> 00:57:12,960
Speaker 2: It is. It's a very hard cell. And they've been

942
00:57:13,679 --> 00:57:19,400
slowly recovering some aspects of their identity and ingenuity and

943
00:57:19,559 --> 00:57:22,599
technical prowess by going out and kind of clearing these

944
00:57:22,639 --> 00:57:26,760
minds and things. But even amongst all of that humanity, uh,

945
00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:30,000
that carrier or that the the naval ship that they

946
00:57:30,039 --> 00:57:33,519
got back, what happened to it? Part of why the

947
00:57:33,519 --> 00:57:35,480
first specie makes they people.

948
00:57:35,280 --> 00:57:39,000
Speaker 1: Are like, yeah, nah, this one Godzilla turns blue and

949
00:57:39,079 --> 00:57:42,000
his spine cookuk kunk khunh.

950
00:57:41,880 --> 00:57:45,159
Speaker 5: Any, Like you know big Babilaborgs.

951
00:57:46,719 --> 00:57:50,519
Speaker 2: Yes, that would that would be yes, big bad Beetleborgs exactly.

952
00:57:50,599 --> 00:57:52,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, well yeah, that's also a huge component of this

953
00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:54,519
is like you want us to go up against this

954
00:57:54,639 --> 00:57:59,559
creature that not only we've never encountered before, but also

955
00:57:59,679 --> 00:58:03,000
seems to have acquired mutant skills.

956
00:58:04,039 --> 00:58:06,960
Speaker 2: That's exactly what it did, and so it's like bigger,

957
00:58:07,119 --> 00:58:08,280
just be kidding me.

958
00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:13,679
Speaker 1: It gets bigger well because it seems to absorb, right, yeah,

959
00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:15,280
the weaponry nightmare.

960
00:58:15,519 --> 00:58:18,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, it demolished the ship. They use the breath weapon

961
00:58:18,920 --> 00:58:22,480
against it and just yeah, annihilated and they.

962
00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:25,760
Speaker 1: Saw it well, and then they that thing happens where

963
00:58:25,800 --> 00:58:30,880
they don't they don't warn people about Godzilla because they

964
00:58:30,920 --> 00:58:36,400
want to contain the situation, and then what happens. Godzilla

965
00:58:36,440 --> 00:58:40,440
attacks of big city and it goes to hell, you know,

966
00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:44,159
and this is a country that has had huge city

967
00:58:44,159 --> 00:58:45,719
destroying situations happen.

968
00:58:46,199 --> 00:58:52,119
Speaker 2: And as we previously discussed, tying it together, right, yes, yes,

969
00:58:52,159 --> 00:58:56,159
and yes, but also what kind of propaganda were they

970
00:58:56,159 --> 00:59:00,280
getting that we're going to win m M and the

971
00:59:00,320 --> 00:59:03,559
government has proved itself not trustworthy and what does it

972
00:59:03,639 --> 00:59:06,000
do again? Lies?

973
00:59:06,360 --> 00:59:09,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, lies, and then people I was shocked. This is

974
00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:12,039
more final thoughts. But when Nrico died, I was like, no.

975
00:59:12,360 --> 00:59:14,800
When I thought she died, I was like, don't do

976
00:59:14,880 --> 00:59:19,159
this to this man and this baby I know. And

977
00:59:19,199 --> 00:59:21,400
then she died for him pretty much when he thought

978
00:59:21,400 --> 00:59:23,440
she died, yeah, like that's not going to help.

979
00:59:23,880 --> 00:59:27,280
Speaker 4: I think that's what gave him the push to be

980
00:59:27,519 --> 00:59:33,719
the pilot for the project. Yep, he's like, she's gone,

981
00:59:34,760 --> 00:59:37,239
I have you know, I have this little girl that

982
00:59:37,360 --> 00:59:39,400
I mean, I don't even know he was thinking of

983
00:59:39,679 --> 00:59:42,000
the little girl at that point, not because he was

984
00:59:42,079 --> 00:59:45,000
a jerk or something, but just because I don't he

985
00:59:45,159 --> 00:59:48,599
was so he was in so much pain. Well, he

986
00:59:48,679 --> 00:59:51,840
gave her to the neighbor, yes, and gave a bunch

987
00:59:51,880 --> 00:59:55,039
of the way he left that baby though, He just

988
00:59:55,079 --> 00:59:56,480
left her in the house by herself with a buile

989
00:59:56,519 --> 00:59:56,920
of money.

990
00:59:57,480 --> 01:00:01,760
Speaker 2: And god thinks she wandered out. You got her. But

991
01:00:01,760 --> 01:00:05,280
if he could have planned that better, yeah, correct, But

992
01:00:05,360 --> 01:00:07,039
he thought she was better off without him.

993
01:00:07,000 --> 01:00:09,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh for sure. I mean that's a part of

994
01:00:09,800 --> 01:00:11,719
feeling horrible about yourself.

995
01:00:11,880 --> 01:00:12,079
Speaker 2: Yep.

996
01:00:12,119 --> 01:00:13,679
Speaker 5: So you think everybody's better off without you.

997
01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:17,280
Speaker 2: Correct. But looking at like that collective side of it

998
01:00:17,320 --> 01:00:19,840
again is that they're you know, they're so demoralization is

999
01:00:19,840 --> 01:00:24,199
the right word, right, they're demoralized because they're being demilitarized

1000
01:00:24,239 --> 01:00:27,280
because they're defeated and now they're being attacked again and

1001
01:00:27,320 --> 01:00:30,360
their weapons that they do have, which are less aren't working.

1002
01:00:31,000 --> 01:00:36,360
Their tanks just get thrown their big naval ship such

1003
01:00:36,360 --> 01:00:39,559
a you know, aquatic movie with so many naval themes

1004
01:00:39,559 --> 01:00:43,679
because Japan was a naval power ties into their you know, identity, right,

1005
01:00:43,719 --> 01:00:48,639
they're not island nation, So navy's pretty big deal didn't work. Fucked,

1006
01:00:49,920 --> 01:00:53,679
totally fucked. How do you and then recognize how do

1007
01:00:53,719 --> 01:00:58,119
we reactivate and find within ourselves all of these parts

1008
01:00:58,119 --> 01:01:03,639
for defense, for winning, for self survival, for sustainability when

1009
01:01:03,679 --> 01:01:04,280
we're defeated.

1010
01:01:05,039 --> 01:01:07,360
Speaker 1: Well, also, and this might be where you're leading to,

1011
01:01:07,679 --> 01:01:11,679
is that this Godzilla does offer an opportunity for a

1012
01:01:11,719 --> 01:01:13,840
lot of these men to have what we've talked about before,

1013
01:01:13,840 --> 01:01:17,039
which is a corrective experience. Someone did say so wrote

1014
01:01:17,039 --> 01:01:19,639
it down. It's a chance to do good again, you know.

1015
01:01:19,840 --> 01:01:21,920
Like this is also an opportunity for our main character,

1016
01:01:23,639 --> 01:01:29,079
Kichi Kiwiki Kichi Kouichi to have his ultimate corrective experience,

1017
01:01:29,679 --> 01:01:32,239
which is now I can finally do the thing and

1018
01:01:32,320 --> 01:01:36,320
complete my story that he's been in, Like we've talked

1019
01:01:36,320 --> 01:01:41,000
about this like disassociated frozen state for years now, and

1020
01:01:41,079 --> 01:01:44,599
so now he can finally, you know, finish his programming.

1021
01:01:44,679 --> 01:01:48,079
Speaker 5: He's been stuck on this weird loop for so long, and.

1022
01:01:48,079 --> 01:01:50,199
Speaker 1: So that's why it is really important for him to

1023
01:01:50,280 --> 01:01:52,840
like fuling himself into the mouth of Godzilla.

1024
01:01:52,760 --> 01:01:56,719
Speaker 2: Correct, and it gives him the ability to complete the mission.

1025
01:01:57,039 --> 01:02:01,760
That is a critical component of under standing how we

1026
01:02:01,840 --> 01:02:05,360
get people past these things is you must allow that

1027
01:02:05,480 --> 01:02:11,199
part that they formed to respond to the critical situation

1028
01:02:11,320 --> 01:02:15,719
to do something close enough to what it was supposed

1029
01:02:15,719 --> 01:02:20,199
to do, or otherwise it's stays stuck. Mother's Against Drunk

1030
01:02:20,280 --> 01:02:26,679
Driving formed because people lost kids to drunk drivers and

1031
01:02:26,719 --> 01:02:30,639
they could not parent and protect their children anymore. But

1032
01:02:30,719 --> 01:02:34,519
what they could do to protect children was to create

1033
01:02:34,559 --> 01:02:38,480
this foundation, to create political action, to fundraise and they

1034
01:02:38,519 --> 01:02:42,039
did things and continue to do things to make meaning

1035
01:02:42,079 --> 01:02:47,400
of the losses and give that protective mothering parental instincts

1036
01:02:47,480 --> 01:02:49,599
something to do, even if it can't do it for

1037
01:02:49,800 --> 01:02:50,480
their child.

1038
01:02:51,159 --> 01:02:55,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's finding a purpose. He's been wandering around purposeless.

1039
01:02:55,440 --> 01:02:56,559
Speaker 2: But it's not just him.

1040
01:02:56,719 --> 01:02:57,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, it means everybody.

1041
01:02:57,800 --> 01:03:01,079
Speaker 2: It's like looking at some of the characters, right, the

1042
01:03:01,519 --> 01:03:04,360
kid couldn't go to war. He was old enough to

1043
01:03:04,400 --> 01:03:07,400
go to war, and he still has the glamorous idea

1044
01:03:07,440 --> 01:03:09,079
of what war is supposed to be. He has the

1045
01:03:09,079 --> 01:03:12,039
basic training message of you know, like rah rah, go

1046
01:03:12,079 --> 01:03:15,800
get him. You can survive, you can protect Japan and people, everybody,

1047
01:03:16,199 --> 01:03:20,559
everybody who went to war is like, shut up with that.

1048
01:03:20,920 --> 01:03:22,480
War is not what you think, son.

1049
01:03:23,039 --> 01:03:26,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like the captain and him get into it because

1050
01:03:26,760 --> 01:03:30,360
he's so adamant, even with a broken arm, that like

1051
01:03:30,400 --> 01:03:32,079
he needs to be a part of it. And the

1052
01:03:32,119 --> 01:03:34,920
captain says, not being part of a war is something

1053
01:03:34,920 --> 01:03:35,719
to be grateful for.

1054
01:03:36,719 --> 01:03:37,719
Speaker 5: But that's the kind of insight.

1055
01:03:37,800 --> 01:03:39,280
Speaker 1: This is what's so annoying is it's the kind of

1056
01:03:39,280 --> 01:03:41,400
insight that you can only really have once you've gone

1057
01:03:41,400 --> 01:03:44,280
through the thing correct And so I'm in my brain,

1058
01:03:44,320 --> 01:03:46,199
I'm like, I wish the kid could understand it, but

1059
01:03:46,440 --> 01:03:50,559
he's not going to never until something unless something similar

1060
01:03:50,599 --> 01:03:52,559
happens to him. Yeah, which you don't want to happen

1061
01:03:52,639 --> 01:03:55,320
to him, which is the catch twenty two of the situation.

1062
01:03:55,800 --> 01:03:58,559
Speaker 2: And yet it does. But once it does, he gains

1063
01:03:58,599 --> 01:04:03,119
the knowledge and also completes the function that he did

1064
01:04:03,119 --> 01:04:04,480
something in defense.

1065
01:04:04,119 --> 01:04:06,760
Speaker 5: Of Japan, yeah, by bringing all the boats.

1066
01:04:07,000 --> 01:04:10,039
Speaker 2: Correct. But he would have stayed stuck in his shame

1067
01:04:11,119 --> 01:04:13,199
and his guilt that he did nothing that he was

1068
01:04:13,280 --> 01:04:16,079
unable to and would have held that against himself forever

1069
01:04:16,559 --> 01:04:19,039
had he not had the corrective experience of doing that,

1070
01:04:19,760 --> 01:04:25,280
because that's the same thing and Doc, Doc was military intelligence.

1071
01:04:26,039 --> 01:04:28,679
You don't find that out until he reveals himself towards

1072
01:04:28,679 --> 01:04:32,519
the end. But he was there to help plan and

1073
01:04:32,679 --> 01:04:35,760
design all of these things, and he knew the secrets,

1074
01:04:36,079 --> 01:04:37,920
and his guilt was that he couldn't do anything with

1075
01:04:38,000 --> 01:04:40,320
series because he couldn't tell, because he's scorned a state secrecy.

1076
01:04:40,880 --> 01:04:43,039
And now he can. Now he can be open, and

1077
01:04:43,079 --> 01:04:45,559
now he can solve it. And it is through that

1078
01:04:45,800 --> 01:04:50,199
messaging that his second speech wins people over and they

1079
01:04:50,280 --> 01:04:52,639
rise to the occasion and the people stand up. It

1080
01:04:52,719 --> 01:04:57,519
took the admiral telling his story, telling his truth right.

1081
01:04:57,679 --> 01:05:00,800
It wasn't just Doc. It took the person in the

1082
01:05:00,880 --> 01:05:04,679
highest position of power to stand up and tell the

1083
01:05:04,719 --> 01:05:07,800
most real story to get people out of the collective

1084
01:05:07,840 --> 01:05:11,480
trauma and back into collective action. And how many stood

1085
01:05:11,559 --> 01:05:14,280
up that had skills that were willing to go back

1086
01:05:14,280 --> 01:05:18,519
into the breach that were not before until he stood up.

1087
01:05:19,800 --> 01:05:25,559
Speaker 1: But it is interesting that even while hitting upon those things,

1088
01:05:25,960 --> 01:05:31,159
he also simultaneously, very heavily critiques the idea of like Kamakazi,

1089
01:05:31,760 --> 01:05:36,679
the idea that the citizenry is being treated like expendables,

1090
01:05:37,519 --> 01:05:40,000
and I think it's such an interesting like almost like

1091
01:05:40,079 --> 01:05:43,840
Jux's position in that speech, right of him being able

1092
01:05:43,880 --> 01:05:45,920
to say, like, I do see the importance of you

1093
01:05:46,000 --> 01:05:51,360
all as individuals, and I am respecting the gravity of

1094
01:05:51,360 --> 01:05:54,239
what I'm asking for. That it's not just like what

1095
01:05:54,360 --> 01:05:57,519
before where it was like you don't matter, the cause matters.

1096
01:05:57,679 --> 01:06:00,480
Like he was recognizing that you matter and the cause matters.

1097
01:06:01,480 --> 01:06:04,559
And I know that I'm asking you to do something

1098
01:06:05,320 --> 01:06:08,519
really hard and I'm not going to go the route

1099
01:06:08,559 --> 01:06:11,519
we have gone in this culture, which is that you

1100
01:06:11,599 --> 01:06:14,320
don't matter. I wonder how much that is like current

1101
01:06:14,400 --> 01:06:16,800
day ideas being put into the movie, Like it makes

1102
01:06:16,840 --> 01:06:20,800
me wonder recently after World War Two, what the thoughts

1103
01:06:20,800 --> 01:06:24,960
store about like that philosophy. Obviously I don't know anything

1104
01:06:25,000 --> 01:06:31,599
about that, because you know, I'm not. Yeah, well, I

1105
01:06:31,880 --> 01:06:34,679
assume it would have to because.

1106
01:06:34,719 --> 01:06:38,199
Speaker 2: The emperor wanted to keep fighting. Well, thats why the

1107
01:06:38,199 --> 01:06:40,599
second bomb was dropped, because the emperor one would not surrender,

1108
01:06:40,599 --> 01:06:41,639
wanted to keep fighting.

1109
01:06:41,760 --> 01:06:43,639
Speaker 1: So it's this idea of like, we got royally fucked

1110
01:06:43,639 --> 01:06:48,239
over culturally, and you asked us for this big, big

1111
01:06:48,280 --> 01:06:51,480
sacrifice and it gave us less than nothing.

1112
01:06:52,440 --> 01:06:56,920
Speaker 2: And you were gambling with our lives for your ego. Yeah,

1113
01:06:57,039 --> 01:06:59,840
that became quite the sentiment of recognition, like the Emperor

1114
01:06:59,920 --> 01:07:00,880
was threatened with overthrow.

1115
01:07:01,400 --> 01:07:04,079
Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, so then it makes more cultural sense, whil like,

1116
01:07:04,119 --> 01:07:08,840
because Doc's speech contains so much humility, humility and recognition

1117
01:07:09,119 --> 01:07:12,239
of the worthwhileness.

1118
01:07:11,480 --> 01:07:12,639
Speaker 5: Of all the men in front of him.

1119
01:07:12,920 --> 01:07:13,679
Speaker 2: That was the admiral.

1120
01:07:14,480 --> 01:07:16,039
Speaker 1: I thought it was the Doc that gave the speech

1121
01:07:16,079 --> 01:07:17,239
about like criticizing it.

1122
01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:19,840
Speaker 2: That's what I wrote my notes. So they both did.

1123
01:07:19,880 --> 01:07:21,880
But then is the admiral that stood up and did

1124
01:07:22,480 --> 01:07:25,880
more of that coming from? Which is the juxtaposition?

1125
01:07:25,960 --> 01:07:26,119
Speaker 1: Right?

1126
01:07:26,159 --> 01:07:28,320
Speaker 2: The person who would have been ordering men to their

1127
01:07:28,320 --> 01:07:31,880
death and holding them accountable with death is one of

1128
01:07:31,880 --> 01:07:34,360
the ones coming back from it. It's Doc and him

1129
01:07:34,400 --> 01:07:37,559
because Doc says one thing and then the Admiral echoes it, okay,

1130
01:07:38,480 --> 01:07:42,719
which is super super critical to recognize that the person

1131
01:07:42,760 --> 01:07:45,280
who would have not the person planning the attacks, that

1132
01:07:45,320 --> 01:07:48,519
the person ordering them is also echoing the message. Without that,

1133
01:07:48,559 --> 01:07:49,559
they would not have stood up.

1134
01:07:50,360 --> 01:07:51,880
Speaker 1: All right, Well, we'll take a break here and be

1135
01:07:51,960 --> 01:07:55,239
back with treatments. Why don't you go first, Hannah?

1136
01:07:55,400 --> 01:07:57,360
Speaker 4: Something that I want to point out for so I

1137
01:07:57,440 --> 01:07:59,920
would be doing couple's therapy. One thing that I want

1138
01:08:00,119 --> 01:08:04,880
to point out about Noriko is that she has her

1139
01:08:04,960 --> 01:08:08,239
moral experience is a little bit different. But she did

1140
01:08:08,280 --> 01:08:10,880
promise something to her parents. She promised them that she

1141
01:08:10,920 --> 01:08:13,800
would survive, and I think a part of what we

1142
01:08:13,840 --> 01:08:16,479
see in the film is her trying to survive in

1143
01:08:16,520 --> 01:08:17,960
any way that she can. I think that's why she

1144
01:08:18,039 --> 01:08:20,399
goes to get a job. She's trying to find her

1145
01:08:20,439 --> 01:08:23,159
purpose and trying to find her meaning. And then we

1146
01:08:23,239 --> 01:08:26,279
see the experience of her being a little bit more

1147
01:08:26,279 --> 01:08:31,319
independent and him automatically feeling defensive and feeling like, am

1148
01:08:31,359 --> 01:08:33,840
I not providing enough for you? Am I not getting

1149
01:08:33,840 --> 01:08:36,279
you what you need? And she's like, it doesn't have anything.

1150
01:08:36,079 --> 01:08:36,520
Speaker 5: To do with that.

1151
01:08:38,039 --> 01:08:39,439
Speaker 4: It has to do with I said I was going

1152
01:08:39,520 --> 01:08:43,319
to survive. I have to survive myself. The reason why

1153
01:08:43,399 --> 01:08:45,760
I brought that up is because that is definitely going

1154
01:08:45,800 --> 01:08:48,279
to come into couple's therapy. That is definitely going to

1155
01:08:48,279 --> 01:08:50,960
be something we're going to talk about. Another reason why

1156
01:08:50,960 --> 01:08:53,840
I want to talk about working with them is because

1157
01:08:54,680 --> 01:08:58,920
when you're in grad school, you get told that if

1158
01:08:58,960 --> 01:09:01,680
you have a couple, or if you have people who

1159
01:09:01,760 --> 01:09:05,399
are not of your cultural background, whatever that might be,

1160
01:09:06,199 --> 01:09:09,880
that you should, you know, make sure that you don't

1161
01:09:09,880 --> 01:09:10,920
ask any questions.

1162
01:09:11,079 --> 01:09:12,560
Speaker 5: You have to get all your own information.

1163
01:09:13,159 --> 01:09:16,119
Speaker 4: You're told all of these different things that you have

1164
01:09:16,159 --> 01:09:17,560
to do with a couple. A lot of times you're

1165
01:09:17,600 --> 01:09:21,840
even told to refer out automatically because you're not don't

1166
01:09:21,880 --> 01:09:26,159
have the cultural background. And in the real world.

1167
01:09:28,079 --> 01:09:31,479
Speaker 2: You get the couples that you get, Yeah, like.

1168
01:09:31,479 --> 01:09:35,800
Speaker 1: Little accessible referrals that exactly everybody's needs exactly.

1169
01:09:35,840 --> 01:09:37,840
Speaker 2: It just it would be awesome if it was like that.

1170
01:09:37,880 --> 01:09:39,039
Speaker 5: It's just not fucking like that.

1171
01:09:39,840 --> 01:09:41,039
Speaker 4: Part of the reason why I want to talk about

1172
01:09:41,079 --> 01:09:43,319
this is because a lot of times you're just taught

1173
01:09:43,319 --> 01:09:47,000
to refer out. And what I want to share is

1174
01:09:47,039 --> 01:09:49,840
that when you have a couple that has a different

1175
01:09:49,880 --> 01:09:53,000
background from you and a different experience, but at least

1176
01:09:53,079 --> 01:09:56,640
their experience is the same, you are allowed to ask

1177
01:09:56,760 --> 01:10:00,439
some questions for clarification. You're allowed to ask if there's

1178
01:10:00,439 --> 01:10:03,319
cultural aspects that you need to be aware of and

1179
01:10:03,359 --> 01:10:05,399
you don't. And I'm not saying that they should have

1180
01:10:05,439 --> 01:10:07,239
to take up the whole session to explain it to me.

1181
01:10:07,800 --> 01:10:10,840
I'm just saying that we're allowed to ask some questions

1182
01:10:11,520 --> 01:10:15,920
about how their cultural experience is just different because it is,

1183
01:10:16,840 --> 01:10:21,800
and that something that a responsible clinician could do is

1184
01:10:22,640 --> 01:10:24,439
you know, if you know that you have a couple

1185
01:10:24,479 --> 01:10:28,039
who is of a different cultural background than you, you

1186
01:10:28,119 --> 01:10:31,000
can look it up on the internet, you can read

1187
01:10:31,079 --> 01:10:31,960
articles about it.

1188
01:10:32,039 --> 01:10:34,319
Speaker 2: You can consult with somebody.

1189
01:10:34,319 --> 01:10:37,479
Speaker 4: Maybe you have somebody who has, in this instance, you know,

1190
01:10:37,520 --> 01:10:40,520
a Japanese background. Maybe I can find a colleague that

1191
01:10:40,560 --> 01:10:42,920
I can talk to about it. So it is a

1192
01:10:42,960 --> 01:10:44,840
little bit of both. You have to do a little

1193
01:10:44,840 --> 01:10:47,520
bit of both. So that's part of why I wanted

1194
01:10:47,520 --> 01:10:48,319
to talk about it.

1195
01:10:48,520 --> 01:10:48,640
Speaker 1: Now.

1196
01:10:48,680 --> 01:10:52,840
Speaker 4: When it comes to doing the actual work with Nurico

1197
01:10:53,119 --> 01:10:55,600
and Kuichi, what.

1198
01:10:55,520 --> 01:10:57,520
Speaker 5: Will be really important.

1199
01:10:58,560 --> 01:11:02,760
Speaker 4: Is that they are both on their own trauma journeys

1200
01:11:04,079 --> 01:11:07,880
in a very specific way, and the triggers that they

1201
01:11:07,960 --> 01:11:11,079
might both have is something that has to be talked

1202
01:11:11,119 --> 01:11:14,960
about because a lot of times PTSD symptoms can come

1203
01:11:15,000 --> 01:11:17,319
out more relationally and have a really big impact on

1204
01:11:17,359 --> 01:11:18,319
that part of your life.

1205
01:11:19,000 --> 01:11:20,279
Speaker 2: So if we're talking about.

1206
01:11:20,039 --> 01:11:22,079
Speaker 5: Each other, sorry to cut in, but yeah, like acting

1207
01:11:22,079 --> 01:11:23,079
out on each other.

1208
01:11:23,159 --> 01:11:27,720
Speaker 4: Exactly exactly, And so what would really be important when

1209
01:11:27,720 --> 01:11:31,279
working with two people who are traumatized in a similar way,

1210
01:11:31,359 --> 01:11:35,279
even if they both reacted in different ways. That helping

1211
01:11:35,319 --> 01:11:38,479
them both understand that they have their own things that

1212
01:11:38,520 --> 01:11:42,199
they may have to work on before we can come

1213
01:11:42,199 --> 01:11:46,840
into couples, but also understanding for both of them that

1214
01:11:46,920 --> 01:11:49,159
these are the things that make me upset, These are

1215
01:11:49,199 --> 01:11:51,640
the things that make me upset, trying to figure out

1216
01:11:51,680 --> 01:11:55,479
a way of how can we keep the both of

1217
01:11:55,520 --> 01:11:59,960
you being activated or triggered as you know, as low

1218
01:12:00,039 --> 01:12:02,600
as possible, because that will be really important when it

1219
01:12:02,640 --> 01:12:06,600
comes to any kind of fighting or arguments or whatever

1220
01:12:06,640 --> 01:12:10,039
the case might be. So so that's what I would

1221
01:12:10,039 --> 01:12:12,439
do with the couple. I would really want to help

1222
01:12:12,479 --> 01:12:17,000
them also have connection to each other and then in

1223
01:12:17,039 --> 01:12:21,000
some ways some of this is just pure communication. So

1224
01:12:21,560 --> 01:12:23,399
those are the things I would want to help them with.

1225
01:12:24,199 --> 01:12:26,319
And yeah, that's all I got.

1226
01:12:26,439 --> 01:12:28,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, there'd be a couple that you'd want to do

1227
01:12:28,199 --> 01:12:31,079
like the vulnerability cycle stuff with like what are our

1228
01:12:31,079 --> 01:12:36,960
individual wounds and how are we gonna indirectly directly push

1229
01:12:37,000 --> 01:12:39,800
those wounds every once in a while and recognize like, ooh,

1230
01:12:39,840 --> 01:12:44,199
that's a me thing. Yeah, and you just stepped on it,

1231
01:12:44,319 --> 01:12:48,039
maybe accidentally, and just because you stepped on it, for

1232
01:12:48,119 --> 01:12:50,119
whatever reason. Doesn't mean that I have to treat you

1233
01:12:51,119 --> 01:12:53,800
like you stomped on it on purpose to fuck with me, right,

1234
01:12:54,159 --> 01:12:56,199
which is what people do, And then they'll do their

1235
01:12:56,199 --> 01:12:57,800
own thing and reaction to that, and then that's why

1236
01:12:57,840 --> 01:12:58,880
it's called a cycle.

1237
01:12:59,399 --> 01:13:02,760
Speaker 2: And becomes really critical is in those conversations is teaching

1238
01:13:02,840 --> 01:13:06,720
about the biology that a person who perceives the threat

1239
01:13:06,800 --> 01:13:09,319
is going to react to it, and it is going

1240
01:13:09,359 --> 01:13:13,399
to take you not doing so and committing to not

1241
01:13:13,439 --> 01:13:15,640
doing so or doing so less often, because you're not

1242
01:13:15,680 --> 01:13:17,720
always going to be able to not react. If your

1243
01:13:17,720 --> 01:13:19,560
partner starts reacting, you're not going to be able to

1244
01:13:19,560 --> 01:13:22,600
contain your shit because you're perceiving your partner as a

1245
01:13:22,600 --> 01:13:26,479
threat at that moment. But there is a classic thing

1246
01:13:26,600 --> 01:13:29,159
in couples counseling that we were taught in grad school.

1247
01:13:29,399 --> 01:13:34,720
You need to get both people to agree unconditionally to change,

1248
01:13:34,880 --> 01:13:39,159
at least largely so because if they agree, I will

1249
01:13:39,199 --> 01:13:42,880
make a change. If they do, it will not be successful.

1250
01:13:43,279 --> 01:13:47,399
Right if they say or I will not change, but

1251
01:13:47,439 --> 01:13:50,720
I want them to change, not going to be successful

1252
01:13:51,319 --> 01:13:53,720
if they say I am going to change regardless of

1253
01:13:53,760 --> 01:13:56,880
what they do to make things better, change will happen,

1254
01:13:57,000 --> 01:13:59,840
but you need both people to agree to the same thing.

1255
01:14:00,359 --> 01:14:05,720
Speaker 4: And there's so much psycho education that you do as

1256
01:14:05,760 --> 01:14:06,680
a couple's therapist.

1257
01:14:07,479 --> 01:14:10,199
Speaker 2: Half of the work I do is psycho education.

1258
01:14:11,119 --> 01:14:13,840
Speaker 4: And you know, and all of you have heard me

1259
01:14:14,000 --> 01:14:16,760
speak of this many, many times, because we don't have

1260
01:14:16,800 --> 01:14:18,239
any mental health education in this.

1261
01:14:18,239 --> 01:14:21,199
Speaker 2: Country, none garbage, So.

1262
01:14:21,199 --> 01:14:24,520
Speaker 4: People don't know a fucking thing. And sometimes when I

1263
01:14:24,680 --> 01:14:29,279
really explain the neurobiological experiences that people have when they're triggered,

1264
01:14:29,800 --> 01:14:32,079
you can just see the light in the partner's eyes

1265
01:14:32,119 --> 01:14:35,439
of like, holy fuck, I did not think this is

1266
01:14:35,479 --> 01:14:40,920
where this was going, or that this has nothing to

1267
01:14:41,000 --> 01:14:44,319
do with me, correct, which a lot of the time,

1268
01:14:44,560 --> 01:14:48,199
especially when it's past trauma, a lot of the time,

1269
01:14:48,600 --> 01:14:51,479
it's got nothing to do with the partner. It's just

1270
01:14:51,520 --> 01:14:54,600
because you're interacting the most with each other and you're

1271
01:14:54,680 --> 01:14:57,199
around each other the most, and you also feel and

1272
01:14:57,239 --> 01:15:01,640
sometimes when you feel the safest with that person, sometimes

1273
01:15:01,640 --> 01:15:03,520
we also can push them away.

1274
01:15:03,640 --> 01:15:07,159
Speaker 2: Correct And the degree of betrayal, yes, that you feel

1275
01:15:07,159 --> 01:15:11,560
when that person fails you causes a much bigger response

1276
01:15:11,640 --> 01:15:16,039
because you're not safe from the past, you're not safe

1277
01:15:16,079 --> 01:15:19,840
in the present and you're not safe because the idea

1278
01:15:19,960 --> 01:15:21,960
of a future you had where you were safe from

1279
01:15:21,960 --> 01:15:26,800
the past no longer exists in this moment. Clients really

1280
01:15:26,800 --> 01:15:30,359
have to understand entering into couples, therapies, in experience, in

1281
01:15:30,399 --> 01:15:33,560
psycho education, of learning, the regulation of all of that

1282
01:15:34,560 --> 01:15:37,720
determines the outcome. This is what a lot of the

1283
01:15:38,039 --> 01:15:41,119
critical research on couples did you know what? The thing

1284
01:15:41,119 --> 01:15:43,600
that determines whether couples are going to fight is their

1285
01:15:43,640 --> 01:15:44,560
fucking blood pressure.

1286
01:15:45,000 --> 01:15:45,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, that sounds right.

1287
01:15:46,439 --> 01:15:48,800
Speaker 2: Their heart rate and their blood pressure. This is what

1288
01:15:48,840 --> 01:15:52,760
the Gotment's proved if you track that shit, and they

1289
01:15:52,800 --> 01:15:56,000
got some shit that's you know, makes money, but other

1290
01:15:56,039 --> 01:15:57,760
stuff that is concrete.

1291
01:15:57,279 --> 01:16:00,760
Speaker 4: Science, right absolutely, and that shit is science on mostly

1292
01:16:00,800 --> 01:16:03,760
white couples. And one more thing that I want to

1293
01:16:03,840 --> 01:16:07,000
just add that I am also assuming about when I

1294
01:16:07,000 --> 01:16:09,079
work with this couple, is that what we see at

1295
01:16:09,079 --> 01:16:13,760
the end of the film, which is Kuichi has because

1296
01:16:13,840 --> 01:16:18,560
he has had this corrective experience and because he found

1297
01:16:18,600 --> 01:16:20,560
his purpose and he was able to follow through and

1298
01:16:20,640 --> 01:16:23,000
he was able to live and then he found out

1299
01:16:23,039 --> 01:16:27,600
that Noriko was alive. That I feel like he will

1300
01:16:27,640 --> 01:16:29,720
be and he still will have a lot of work

1301
01:16:29,720 --> 01:16:32,520
to do emotionally, but that he will be in a

1302
01:16:32,560 --> 01:16:36,039
place where he is now open for connection. And something

1303
01:16:36,119 --> 01:16:39,800
that I just learned in an excellent training that Brittany

1304
01:16:39,840 --> 01:16:43,600
set up at her practice about couples counseling was that connection.

1305
01:16:44,199 --> 01:16:46,840
We talk so much about communication and couples, but it's

1306
01:16:46,880 --> 01:16:51,319
actually connection that helps with communication. And they couldn't have

1307
01:16:51,399 --> 01:16:55,319
that because Kuichi couldn't allow that to happen, because he

1308
01:16:55,319 --> 01:16:57,039
didn't deserve good, beautiful things.

1309
01:16:58,119 --> 01:17:01,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can't communicate better her to someone who has

1310
01:17:01,199 --> 01:17:02,640
not receptive.

1311
01:17:02,279 --> 01:17:06,359
Speaker 3: Yet to the communication, exactly exactly. And he did not

1312
01:17:06,439 --> 01:17:09,760
feel connected to her until he thought he lost her. Yeah,

1313
01:17:10,199 --> 01:17:12,640
and not until she showed up alive.

1314
01:17:13,520 --> 01:17:16,920
Speaker 1: Well, this is also another corrective experience for him, yeah, exactly.

1315
01:17:17,159 --> 01:17:20,680
He now gets to do all the things that I'm

1316
01:17:20,680 --> 01:17:22,439
sure he was regretting not doing.

1317
01:17:22,760 --> 01:17:25,039
Speaker 2: And she lost her well, she saved him.

1318
01:17:25,680 --> 01:17:28,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I mean just in the sense of I

1319
01:17:28,199 --> 01:17:29,880
never told her I loved her, you know what I mean.

1320
01:17:30,239 --> 01:17:32,720
I'm sure he was thinking all those things in that

1321
01:17:32,760 --> 01:17:37,479
moment and like another time when he probably thought I

1322
01:17:37,479 --> 01:17:40,199
didn't follow through, like I'm such a fucking coward. You know,

1323
01:17:40,840 --> 01:17:42,720
there's this woman that loved me, who lived with me

1324
01:17:43,279 --> 01:17:47,760
for years, and I never pursued.

1325
01:17:47,399 --> 01:17:52,039
Speaker 2: It happened to be beautiful. Yeah, he was a cook.

1326
01:17:52,960 --> 01:17:55,520
What's wrong? So I'm going to offshoot on that.

1327
01:17:55,960 --> 01:17:58,520
Speaker 1: In that I was thinking I would could do family

1328
01:17:58,560 --> 01:18:05,239
therapy there little daughter, Akiko, she does seem pretty chill

1329
01:18:05,880 --> 01:18:06,319
for a kid.

1330
01:18:06,279 --> 01:18:07,520
Speaker 2: Who's go through a lot of shit.

1331
01:18:07,680 --> 01:18:10,680
Speaker 1: But I would just say, like, like offshooting what you're saying, Hannah,

1332
01:18:10,680 --> 01:18:12,680
of let's say they're a couple. Now they're a little family,

1333
01:18:12,680 --> 01:18:15,359
like an actual little family. I think the work I

1334
01:18:15,359 --> 01:18:20,039
can do with parents, even of someone that young is

1335
01:18:20,119 --> 01:18:21,560
kind of what you were saying Handah to of like

1336
01:18:21,560 --> 01:18:25,279
it's much more psycho educational. Yeah, So let's say if

1337
01:18:25,399 --> 01:18:30,880
Akiko started exhibiting maybe some behavioral problems her own trauma stuff,

1338
01:18:31,159 --> 01:18:33,520
what I can do as the clinician is work with

1339
01:18:33,560 --> 01:18:38,560
the couple to help them understand why the kid Akiko

1340
01:18:38,680 --> 01:18:42,039
might be presenting the way that she is, where it's

1341
01:18:42,039 --> 01:18:44,560
coming from in terms of trauma. How trauma can affect

1342
01:18:44,640 --> 01:18:48,680
attachment because a kid like her is vulnerable to developing

1343
01:18:48,720 --> 01:18:53,399
and something like reactive attachment disorder, which is just when

1344
01:18:53,399 --> 01:18:55,279
you have a lot of caregivers when you're really little

1345
01:18:55,720 --> 01:19:00,079
for whatever reason, when there's an instability in terms of

1346
01:19:00,079 --> 01:19:04,119
of your secure attachments, So whether you lose a parent

1347
01:19:04,159 --> 01:19:05,840
and you have to go to another parent, whether you're

1348
01:19:05,880 --> 01:19:09,000
being which kind of she is a little bit you know,

1349
01:19:09,079 --> 01:19:13,319
where you're kind of like being given like passed around

1350
01:19:13,600 --> 01:19:18,319
by adults, which sometimes just happens. Is that then you

1351
01:19:18,319 --> 01:19:20,159
can just have like behavior issues and stuff like this

1352
01:19:20,199 --> 01:19:23,439
when the kids are older. And a lot of times

1353
01:19:23,479 --> 01:19:27,039
parents have a difficult time understanding that because especially when

1354
01:19:27,079 --> 01:19:29,439
it's a situation like once I've been in where kind

1355
01:19:29,439 --> 01:19:32,079
of similar to a kiko actually like fostered or adopted kids,

1356
01:19:32,600 --> 01:19:33,800
where the parents will be like.

1357
01:19:33,720 --> 01:19:35,840
Speaker 2: This doesn't make sense. I'm giving them everything that they need.

1358
01:19:35,880 --> 01:19:37,640
Speaker 1: They have food, and they have shelter, and I love

1359
01:19:37,680 --> 01:19:39,760
them and I show them that I love them. Why

1360
01:19:39,760 --> 01:19:45,680
aren't they well, why aren't they reacting appropriately to the

1361
01:19:45,720 --> 01:19:49,000
resources that I'm giving them? And then I have to

1362
01:19:49,000 --> 01:19:53,079
do a lot of explaining of this kid developed during

1363
01:19:53,079 --> 01:19:55,119
a period of time in which that stuff was not

1364
01:19:55,159 --> 01:19:58,359
set in stone, so that security that doesn't exist in

1365
01:19:58,399 --> 01:20:02,560
that child even if you start taking care of them

1366
01:20:02,600 --> 01:20:05,159
at a pretty young age. A lot of times with

1367
01:20:05,199 --> 01:20:07,960
this they'll say like pre too, Like if there's enough

1368
01:20:07,960 --> 01:20:09,720
shit that happens in the first like eighteen months to

1369
01:20:10,039 --> 01:20:13,479
two years of a kid's life, like that's enough, unfortunately

1370
01:20:13,920 --> 01:20:16,920
to really affect this stuff for potentially for the rest

1371
01:20:16,920 --> 01:20:19,680
of their life. And so with this is it's I

1372
01:20:19,720 --> 01:20:22,560
think with them, I'd also want to do a lot

1373
01:20:22,600 --> 01:20:28,800
of work on making sure that their sense of identity,

1374
01:20:29,039 --> 01:20:34,199
their stability, their ego is not too attached to how

1375
01:20:34,359 --> 01:20:37,000
a Kego response to them, which I think could be

1376
01:20:37,039 --> 01:20:39,000
a big thing for either of them. I think with

1377
01:20:39,720 --> 01:20:42,479
Noriko obviously, because as we said, she's made it her

1378
01:20:42,560 --> 01:20:44,119
life's purpose in a lot of ways to take care

1379
01:20:44,159 --> 01:20:46,079
of this girl and to live a good life and

1380
01:20:46,119 --> 01:20:48,159
to give this girl a good life. So it would

1381
01:20:48,159 --> 01:20:50,560
be something where like you have to let the kid

1382
01:20:51,359 --> 01:20:54,239
have whatever opinion of you they want to have treat you.

1383
01:20:55,000 --> 01:20:57,560
Maybe they don't treat you like their mom. Maybe they

1384
01:20:57,600 --> 01:21:01,199
do kind of act ungrateful and you know, antagonistic and whatever,

1385
01:21:01,720 --> 01:21:04,079
and you can't make that you as the parent, can't

1386
01:21:04,159 --> 01:21:07,279
make that about you. I need you to love me,

1387
01:21:07,479 --> 01:21:10,000
I need you to think of me like your mom.

1388
01:21:10,079 --> 01:21:13,000
I need you to have a very specific kind of

1389
01:21:13,000 --> 01:21:14,840
relationship to me. I think, especially like I said, with

1390
01:21:14,840 --> 01:21:18,560
both of these parents in this movie, where they've gone

1391
01:21:18,560 --> 01:21:21,399
through so much, and I could see both of them

1392
01:21:21,439 --> 01:21:25,880
having their identity really wrapped up in a Kiko and

1393
01:21:25,920 --> 01:21:28,560
how she responds to them. So with these parents, I'd

1394
01:21:28,560 --> 01:21:30,399
also have to make sure to say, like, you have

1395
01:21:30,479 --> 01:21:34,119
to figure out how to feel grounded and good no

1396
01:21:34,119 --> 01:21:37,560
matter how this kid behaves, and this kid can't feel

1397
01:21:37,600 --> 01:21:42,279
like your well being is an attitude and all this

1398
01:21:42,319 --> 01:21:44,640
stuff is contingent upon how they behave, because that'll make

1399
01:21:44,680 --> 01:21:48,560
them more anxious about the attachment stuff and more likely

1400
01:21:48,640 --> 01:21:52,640
to do antagonistic things to push you away, because that's

1401
01:21:52,640 --> 01:21:59,680
more comfortable than the pressure of like, I have to

1402
01:21:59,680 --> 01:22:01,119
be a certain way for you to feel good and

1403
01:22:01,119 --> 01:22:01,880
for me to feel good.

1404
01:22:03,039 --> 01:22:04,439
Speaker 5: And so that'd be the work I'd want to do

1405
01:22:04,479 --> 01:22:04,840
with them.

1406
01:22:05,039 --> 01:22:08,039
Speaker 1: If, for like I said, hypothetically, maybe a Kiko did

1407
01:22:08,079 --> 01:22:11,039
have some problems as she got older.

1408
01:22:11,479 --> 01:22:16,399
Speaker 2: Hopefully she won't. She's pretty young. I suspect she may

1409
01:22:16,600 --> 01:22:17,880
do okay.

1410
01:22:17,600 --> 01:22:19,119
Speaker 1: That's what I mean, Like, there's a very good chance

1411
01:22:19,119 --> 01:22:21,159
she'll do okay. But I also think with just how

1412
01:22:21,239 --> 01:22:26,239
much she like she loses this mom figures sometime she

1413
01:22:26,279 --> 01:22:28,680
goes to this neighbor, you know, there's all this chaos

1414
01:22:28,720 --> 01:22:32,319
just within the country at the time. Like I think

1415
01:22:32,359 --> 01:22:35,199
that she's vulnerable to happening. Do I think she's super

1416
01:22:35,319 --> 01:22:37,880
likely for it to happen. Not necessarily, but I think

1417
01:22:37,920 --> 01:22:40,439
like it's just important to talk about, Like if I

1418
01:22:40,399 --> 01:22:41,920
work with them to a family, like this could be

1419
01:22:41,960 --> 01:22:44,279
a hypothetical situation that would come up that is similar

1420
01:22:44,319 --> 01:22:47,479
to ones I've been in where just because you've taken

1421
01:22:47,479 --> 01:22:50,720
this kid in, whether it's from the foster system or whatever,

1422
01:22:50,880 --> 01:22:52,760
or like from a family member, just because you've taken

1423
01:22:52,800 --> 01:22:54,640
this kid in and you've worked really hard to support

1424
01:22:54,680 --> 01:22:57,640
them does not mean that you're going to get something

1425
01:22:57,680 --> 01:23:00,439
from this kid in return. It does not so, and

1426
01:23:00,479 --> 01:23:03,039
if that's something you're caught up in, you got to

1427
01:23:03,039 --> 01:23:03,880
get the book over it.

1428
01:23:03,920 --> 01:23:08,399
Speaker 2: And it doesn't mean that just because you've given them

1429
01:23:08,800 --> 01:23:14,119
regulation that the impacts of the dysregulation they went through

1430
01:23:15,359 --> 01:23:17,399
will be erased. Yeah, because they will not.

1431
01:23:18,159 --> 01:23:20,880
Speaker 1: And I've worked with kids that have been adopted as infants,

1432
01:23:20,880 --> 01:23:22,800
and I've worked with kids that have been adopted as

1433
01:23:23,359 --> 01:23:26,920
very young toddlers that still present with these things. And

1434
01:23:27,000 --> 01:23:31,119
so you can't there's no guarantee. Well, I could say here,

1435
01:23:31,359 --> 01:23:33,920
all adoption is trauma by the nature of being adoption,

1436
01:23:34,199 --> 01:23:37,039
and all fostering is trauma by the nature of being fostering.

1437
01:23:37,319 --> 01:23:41,920
A kid gets ripped from their biological caregiver for some reason,

1438
01:23:43,159 --> 01:23:46,279
for some reason and play somewhere else. So there's always

1439
01:23:46,279 --> 01:23:50,439
the potential that this could lead to these attachmentations I'm

1440
01:23:50,479 --> 01:23:54,960
talking about no matter what age or circumstance that you

1441
01:23:55,039 --> 01:23:58,319
quote unquote like acquired this child. And I think that's

1442
01:23:58,359 --> 01:23:59,640
something I just like to say every once in a

1443
01:23:59,680 --> 01:24:04,239
while because there is so much, in my opinion, disgusting

1444
01:24:04,319 --> 01:24:07,079
rhetoric out there that if you like get a baby

1445
01:24:07,119 --> 01:24:10,840
young enough or in the right conditions, that you can

1446
01:24:10,920 --> 01:24:14,720
like love that kid well, or that like that baby

1447
01:24:14,720 --> 01:24:16,199
won't have any problems, like I think a lot of

1448
01:24:16,199 --> 01:24:18,199
people like, and it's still gross. This is like the

1449
01:24:18,239 --> 01:24:21,079
human trafficking part of in my opinion, part of adoption

1450
01:24:21,479 --> 01:24:24,680
is like, if I acquire a baby young enough, then

1451
01:24:24,680 --> 01:24:27,960
I'm going to avoid all of the potential hardships of

1452
01:24:28,000 --> 01:24:31,600
like adopting a kid that's like older. That's not necessarily true.

1453
01:24:31,880 --> 01:24:35,720
This stuff happens very young, and like I said, it

1454
01:24:35,720 --> 01:24:37,520
can be very random. There are some kids, like when

1455
01:24:37,560 --> 01:24:39,760
we talked about Matilda, there are some kids that go

1456
01:24:39,760 --> 01:24:43,399
through she like this and they are fine, quote unquote.

1457
01:24:43,520 --> 01:24:45,520
And there are some kids that don't have like too

1458
01:24:45,600 --> 01:24:47,920
much on paper that happens to them, and they have

1459
01:24:47,960 --> 01:24:49,279
a lot of stuff that they have to work through.

1460
01:24:49,920 --> 01:24:53,119
So in a lot of ways, it's like a true

1461
01:24:53,239 --> 01:24:57,640
like clusterfuck of genetics, nature, nurture, luck, all that kind

1462
01:24:57,640 --> 01:24:58,439
of stuff.

1463
01:24:58,920 --> 01:25:03,319
Speaker 2: You can't escape. Must of those. Yeah, So when I

1464
01:25:03,399 --> 01:25:08,479
watched this movie, I even though the plot really concludes it,

1465
01:25:08,520 --> 01:25:10,840
I think there's more work that would need to be done,

1466
01:25:11,560 --> 01:25:17,479
and that outside of the relationships you all identified, Koichi

1467
01:25:17,680 --> 01:25:22,199
and Tuck Schibana is something that I think really needs

1468
01:25:23,359 --> 01:25:29,520
some therapeutic intervention because those two went through such a

1469
01:25:29,840 --> 01:25:35,079
critical experience and the bad feelings that exist between them,

1470
01:25:35,920 --> 01:25:39,479
and for all valid reasons, but I think those two

1471
01:25:39,920 --> 01:25:47,319
would probably benefit from being in a group therapy, more

1472
01:25:47,439 --> 01:25:50,600
like family therapy kind of connection where the two of

1473
01:25:50,640 --> 01:25:53,560
them who are involved in the same event would need

1474
01:25:53,600 --> 01:25:57,439
to sit down and kind of process through what each

1475
01:25:57,479 --> 01:26:00,560
of them saw and how their viewpoint on it has

1476
01:26:00,720 --> 01:26:06,279
changed over time. I thought, among the most beautiful things

1477
01:26:06,399 --> 01:26:12,720
about this film. Was it being Tachibana who forgave.

1478
01:26:12,399 --> 01:26:15,520
Speaker 1: Him and puts the ejection seat in as well correct

1479
01:26:15,680 --> 01:26:19,079
a really symbolic I forgive you and I want you

1480
01:26:19,119 --> 01:26:19,560
to live.

1481
01:26:21,000 --> 01:26:24,359
Speaker 2: Correct. But he couldn't get there, He could not get

1482
01:26:24,439 --> 01:26:32,880
himself there for years. His anger and hatred and for

1483
01:26:32,960 --> 01:26:36,880
all of the cultural reasons we identified or earlier, would

1484
01:26:36,920 --> 01:26:40,560
have kept him blocked from processing because he also wouldn't

1485
01:26:40,560 --> 01:26:42,920
be able to explain what he went through. And the

1486
01:26:43,000 --> 01:26:49,239
betrayal by a superior is enormous. The cultural significance that

1487
01:26:50,439 --> 01:26:54,800
Kuichi held over him, And it was him discovering and

1488
01:26:54,880 --> 01:26:58,279
not writing him out and not holding him accountable and

1489
01:26:58,359 --> 01:27:02,000
radioing in that they had this trader basically in calling

1490
01:27:02,039 --> 01:27:04,439
someone to come get his ass. But he let him live,

1491
01:27:04,439 --> 01:27:08,159
and then he betrayed. He got betrayed again, and he

1492
01:27:08,239 --> 01:27:11,039
got mangled, and all his friends died, while his men

1493
01:27:11,079 --> 01:27:15,319
died because he was the NCO, the noncommissioned officer, the

1494
01:27:15,399 --> 01:27:18,720
leader of those men, his men, his plan all got

1495
01:27:18,800 --> 01:27:23,479
killed because he trusted this officer. That's gone to require

1496
01:27:23,520 --> 01:27:27,119
some work. And I think those two getting the opportunity

1497
01:27:27,159 --> 01:27:29,640
to come in and sit down and talk and process

1498
01:27:29,720 --> 01:27:35,159
that would be the most helpful thing because in reality,

1499
01:27:35,199 --> 01:27:37,840
they may not have gotten the moment where he would

1500
01:27:37,840 --> 01:27:40,680
have the ability to apply his skill to show forgiveness

1501
01:27:40,720 --> 01:27:44,920
by building an ejection seat into an airplane that wouldn't

1502
01:27:44,960 --> 01:27:50,760
have had one. But had Kuichi not shown the humility

1503
01:27:50,800 --> 01:27:53,560
and the respect and the recognition of how badly he failed,

1504
01:27:54,239 --> 01:27:57,640
he may not have done that. But he really took

1505
01:27:57,680 --> 01:28:00,600
to heart the speech and he showed thee and he

1506
01:28:00,680 --> 01:28:04,319
took the opportunity to say, I am not going to

1507
01:28:04,359 --> 01:28:09,359
perpetuate this hurt and these bad feelings, and through sitting

1508
01:28:09,439 --> 01:28:13,479
through a great number of debriefings, where in my case

1509
01:28:13,520 --> 01:28:16,399
it's police officers who all have a different perspective of

1510
01:28:16,439 --> 01:28:20,000
the event that they went through, have the opportunity to

1511
01:28:20,119 --> 01:28:23,560
process through each other what each other saw, what each

1512
01:28:23,600 --> 01:28:25,920
person saw, what each person went through, what they thought then,

1513
01:28:26,279 --> 01:28:29,039
what they think now, what's changed to them as they've

1514
01:28:29,079 --> 01:28:33,880
learned more. Because sometimes somebody acts or doesn't act and

1515
01:28:34,000 --> 01:28:37,560
holds it against themselves in a profound way, or somebody

1516
01:28:37,560 --> 01:28:40,159
else holds it against them because they didn't understand. But

1517
01:28:40,279 --> 01:28:44,079
having the opportunity to process that with the other people

1518
01:28:44,159 --> 01:28:47,000
that went through the event is a unique opportunity that

1519
01:28:47,119 --> 01:28:50,680
cannot exist in any other format, and these two men

1520
01:28:51,079 --> 01:28:55,079
share this first exposure to Godzilla in a way that

1521
01:28:55,199 --> 01:28:58,439
no one else does. So for me, those two sitting

1522
01:28:58,439 --> 01:29:00,600
together in a room and talking about it from that

1523
01:29:00,680 --> 01:29:05,479
perspective would be a vital component of healing that if

1524
01:29:05,479 --> 01:29:08,000
we could make happen, would be my first and foremost target.

1525
01:29:08,439 --> 01:29:09,319
And those are the reasons why.

1526
01:29:10,840 --> 01:29:12,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that that makes a lot of sense.

1527
01:29:12,640 --> 01:29:15,039
And it really makes me think of the VA and

1528
01:29:15,119 --> 01:29:20,520
how poorly supported they are and are currently experiencing a

1529
01:29:20,520 --> 01:29:23,119
lot of problems in terms of being able to help

1530
01:29:23,239 --> 01:29:26,119
vets unfortunately.

1531
01:29:26,520 --> 01:29:29,680
Speaker 2: Correct, and especially when you get people that were in

1532
01:29:29,720 --> 01:29:33,640
the same conflict, especially even the same unit. Yeah, I

1533
01:29:33,680 --> 01:29:38,359
would have had the same experience, so critical. Yeah, that

1534
01:29:38,399 --> 01:29:40,359
they get the opportunity to talk to each other in

1535
01:29:40,399 --> 01:29:44,119
a place where they feel safe, that's for them, and

1536
01:29:44,159 --> 01:29:46,960
these two would need that. Yeah, they would need something

1537
01:29:47,000 --> 01:29:50,000
like a VA where it's you know, I could military

1538
01:29:50,039 --> 01:29:52,319
people talking them about military things, so that there's the

1539
01:29:52,399 --> 01:29:58,479
common cultural understanding. Because though it's clear other Japanese folks

1540
01:29:58,640 --> 01:30:04,760
understand the gravity of how bad he messed up, Tachibana

1541
01:30:04,840 --> 01:30:10,840
is the symbolism of that, but that's a reality. People fail,

1542
01:30:10,920 --> 01:30:15,760
and the failure that you have personally and positionally matters.

1543
01:30:16,199 --> 01:30:20,960
Societal failure impacts the degree of wound, and people like

1544
01:30:21,000 --> 01:30:24,119
Tachibana below you have less power but still chose to

1545
01:30:24,159 --> 01:30:28,680
use grace and not follow orders himself. Like huge, huge opportunity,

1546
01:30:29,279 --> 01:30:32,720
And yeah, that's if we decimate the VA, we're not

1547
01:30:32,760 --> 01:30:36,399
going to have those opportunities to heal what can be

1548
01:30:36,439 --> 01:30:37,720
healed of those things.

1549
01:30:39,039 --> 01:30:41,720
Speaker 1: Let's take our last break here and be back with

1550
01:30:41,800 --> 01:30:45,239
final thoughts. Why don't you have first, Ben, because you're

1551
01:30:45,279 --> 01:30:47,199
the only one I think that's already seen the movie

1552
01:30:48,000 --> 01:30:49,439
before recording.

1553
01:30:49,000 --> 01:30:53,000
Speaker 2: This correct, This is one of my picks. Even though

1554
01:30:53,000 --> 01:30:54,880
we got lots of requests for it. I've gotten a

1555
01:30:55,000 --> 01:30:58,399
lot of requests since the minute it came out. One

1556
01:30:58,439 --> 01:31:02,520
of my longtime folks demand did of me, demanded to

1557
01:31:02,960 --> 01:31:04,479
He told me you're gonna see it, and you're gonna

1558
01:31:04,520 --> 01:31:06,399
do it, and it's just gonna be it. And he

1559
01:31:06,520 --> 01:31:11,640
was correct. So I will you know acknowledge that that

1560
01:31:11,680 --> 01:31:14,439
he was very right, and I'm glad he was because

1561
01:31:14,439 --> 01:31:16,319
this is my favorite movie the past couple of years.

1562
01:31:16,800 --> 01:31:19,239
Speaker 5: Really, you do love war movies?

1563
01:31:20,840 --> 01:31:26,439
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, but why I love this No, but loving

1564
01:31:26,479 --> 01:31:27,840
this one has nothing to do with it being a

1565
01:31:27,880 --> 01:31:32,039
war movie. This is This is one of the best

1566
01:31:32,079 --> 01:31:35,079
written films I think I've seen in quite a while.

1567
01:31:35,680 --> 01:31:39,520
I think between this and Everything Everywhere, all at once,

1568
01:31:39,600 --> 01:31:45,079
those are my top favorites lately. The tightness of the writing,

1569
01:31:45,159 --> 01:31:50,920
the incredible acting, and the way the story all interconnects,

1570
01:31:51,000 --> 01:31:53,359
all makes sense, and it connects on all the levels

1571
01:31:53,359 --> 01:31:56,159
of humanity. I just think is really unique and not

1572
01:31:56,279 --> 01:31:59,279
often done. And we've seen a lot of bullshit that

1573
01:31:59,479 --> 01:32:04,199
tries to do this but just meh as the result,

1574
01:32:05,840 --> 01:32:10,520
and this wasn't. This was a truly beautiful gem of

1575
01:32:10,560 --> 01:32:15,439
a film where we see the offense, we see the

1576
01:32:15,479 --> 01:32:19,760
breaking of humanity, We see this situational destruction of identity,

1577
01:32:20,119 --> 01:32:23,800
and we see the collective restoration as well as the individual,

1578
01:32:24,119 --> 01:32:27,560
and we see it across so many different stories and

1579
01:32:27,600 --> 01:32:33,720
the opportunities to grow and heal, and it culturally reclaim

1580
01:32:34,319 --> 01:32:39,880
Godzilla from the monster of destruction. It came to what

1581
01:32:39,920 --> 01:32:43,000
it was originally created as, which is a symbol of

1582
01:32:43,119 --> 01:32:46,319
nuclear destruction and the danger it represents to humanity and

1583
01:32:46,359 --> 01:32:49,199
how we must all band together to defeat it. And

1584
01:32:49,279 --> 01:32:52,720
this movie comes right back to that, while also tying

1585
01:32:52,760 --> 01:32:58,239
it a little more directly to the Sleeping Giant comments

1586
01:32:58,279 --> 01:33:03,560
of recognizing that some of this nuclear destruction was brought

1587
01:33:03,680 --> 01:33:08,079
on by our own hubris of attacking another country we

1588
01:33:08,119 --> 01:33:12,720
didn't need to attack necessarily and getting into a war

1589
01:33:12,920 --> 01:33:15,720
caused this kind of damage to our country and now

1590
01:33:15,720 --> 01:33:19,439
we need to heal from it. It's a beautiful, beautiful film,

1591
01:33:19,520 --> 01:33:22,800
and I am very glad that exists. And do we

1592
01:33:22,840 --> 01:33:24,880
did it and go next?

1593
01:33:25,560 --> 01:33:27,319
Speaker 5: I really liked the movie. I wasn't.

1594
01:33:28,000 --> 01:33:30,479
Speaker 1: I was thought I would like it because it's gotten

1595
01:33:30,520 --> 01:33:34,800
so much positive accolades. And I've never seen a Godzilla

1596
01:33:34,840 --> 01:33:38,239
movie except for maybe the one from the nineties, just

1597
01:33:38,279 --> 01:33:41,880
because like it's just not my forte Godzilla is just

1598
01:33:41,880 --> 01:33:45,159
not really a genre of movie that I watch. So

1599
01:33:45,159 --> 01:33:47,000
I would say it was like really pleasantly surprised by

1600
01:33:47,039 --> 01:33:49,399
how beautiful this movie was. I thought it was just

1601
01:33:49,439 --> 01:33:53,840
gorgeous to look at, and to be honest, like then,

1602
01:33:53,840 --> 01:33:55,680
this is probably gonna be sacriligious for me to say it.

1603
01:33:55,920 --> 01:33:57,479
Speaker 5: I could have done without the Godzilla part.

1604
01:33:58,159 --> 01:33:59,920
Speaker 1: I think the Godzilla part I get white it is

1605
01:34:00,039 --> 01:34:02,000
and it's such like a cultural touchdown, so don't go crazy.

1606
01:34:02,000 --> 01:34:03,439
Speaker 5: I'm even no.

1607
01:34:03,520 --> 01:34:05,439
Speaker 2: I didn't need Gozilla for it to be a beautiful movie.

1608
01:34:05,479 --> 01:34:08,560
That's what made it work. Yeah, I hate it.

1609
01:34:07,359 --> 01:34:11,720
Speaker 1: I like just that it was a story that I

1610
01:34:11,720 --> 01:34:13,960
think we get a lot of stories of, like Germany

1611
01:34:14,000 --> 01:34:16,960
post World War Two and how they societally reckoned with that.

1612
01:34:17,399 --> 01:34:20,680
So it was interesting to see the Japanese part of

1613
01:34:20,680 --> 01:34:23,279
that story, which I'd never really seen before in this way.

1614
01:34:23,920 --> 01:34:25,680
Speaker 2: So I thought the movie was beautiful.

1615
01:34:26,039 --> 01:34:28,159
Speaker 1: It was really interesting to also just watch I don't

1616
01:34:28,199 --> 01:34:30,199
watch a lot of Japanese cinema, so it's really interesting

1617
01:34:30,199 --> 01:34:32,680
to see like the differences in like acting style and

1618
01:34:32,680 --> 01:34:34,520
how they just go about doing stuff. So it's a

1619
01:34:34,520 --> 01:34:38,439
beautiful movie. I didn't cry cry, but I definitely choked

1620
01:34:38,520 --> 01:34:42,399
up a few times. And it really realized how much

1621
01:34:42,439 --> 01:34:46,239
I've heard the Godzilla score be sampled in hip hop music,

1622
01:34:46,920 --> 01:34:48,880
because I was like, I know these sounds that I'm

1623
01:34:48,920 --> 01:34:51,000
hearing every time Godzilla rises from the ocean.

1624
01:34:51,600 --> 01:34:53,239
Speaker 2: So I would say, I really like this movie.

1625
01:34:53,279 --> 01:34:54,560
Speaker 1: I don't know if I'll seek it out again, just

1626
01:34:54,560 --> 01:34:58,319
because I'm not a big Godzilla person, but I thought

1627
01:34:58,319 --> 01:35:01,279
it was very, very beautiful, and I like the messaging

1628
01:35:01,279 --> 01:35:01,960
that I was giving out.

1629
01:35:03,880 --> 01:35:09,560
Speaker 4: I thought that this movie was fine, that's a new one.

1630
01:35:09,880 --> 01:35:15,880
I I enjoyed it as like the action parts in

1631
01:35:15,920 --> 01:35:22,800
the beautiful cinematography and the connections between the people that

1632
01:35:22,840 --> 01:35:25,239
were working together. Like I thought that everybody did a

1633
01:35:25,279 --> 01:35:29,800
really good job acting wise, and I thought it was.

1634
01:35:31,359 --> 01:35:31,600
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1635
01:35:31,600 --> 01:35:33,520
Speaker 4: I don't know if I'll rewatch it, not for any

1636
01:35:33,520 --> 01:35:38,840
specific reason. I will not say that I will never

1637
01:35:38,880 --> 01:35:40,520
watch it again, because I think there is a chance

1638
01:35:40,560 --> 01:35:42,520
that I will watch it again, especially after having this

1639
01:35:42,960 --> 01:35:46,680
discussion that we had today. But I think that it's

1640
01:35:46,800 --> 01:35:48,880
I think that it's good. I'm glad that people found

1641
01:35:48,920 --> 01:35:50,920
the connection that they had to it. I think it's

1642
01:35:50,960 --> 01:35:53,119
a beautiful way to tell that story.

1643
01:35:55,239 --> 01:35:58,760
Speaker 1: All right, Well, we will wrap up here as always.

1644
01:35:58,840 --> 01:36:00,560
If you would like to find it, you can find

1645
01:36:00,640 --> 01:36:06,319
us on TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook a pop Porn Psychology.

1646
01:36:06,359 --> 01:36:09,359
You can also email us at pop porronpsychologygmail dot com.

1647
01:36:10,119 --> 01:36:14,039
If you want to support us anyway, we have a Patreon.

1648
01:36:14,119 --> 01:36:17,039
You can be a Patreon and get early unedited access

1649
01:36:17,079 --> 01:36:22,199
to our episodes, and if you want to support us

1650
01:36:22,199 --> 01:36:25,000
for free.

1651
01:36:24,279 --> 01:36:25,520
Speaker 5: You can give us a review.

1652
01:36:25,560 --> 01:36:27,439
Speaker 1: Wherever you listen to podcasts, It is a great way

1653
01:36:27,479 --> 01:36:29,760
to support us and allows other people to find us

1654
01:36:29,760 --> 01:36:34,000
who haven't. So yeah, everybody, keep safe out there and

1655
01:36:34,079 --> 01:36:34,960
avoid Godzilla.