Speaker 1: Welcome, dear listener, and thanks for joining us. And I'm
Speaker 1: Stephen and.
Speaker 2: This is a podcast all about the weird and wonderful
Speaker 2: world of the Dark comedy anthology series Inside number nine.
Speaker 1: On each episode, we'll be diving into another one of
Speaker 1: Steve Pemberton and Reese Shearsmith's twisted tales, putting it under
Speaker 1: a lens, and examining it within an inch of its life.
Speaker 2: So make yourself comfortable, grab a cup of tea, and
Speaker 2: join us for the ninth degree. Hello, Hello, Hello, welcome back.
Speaker 2: How are you?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm all right. How are you?
Speaker 2: I'm good? Thank you old, I'm old? Yeah, thank exciting
Speaker 2: going on with you?
Speaker 1: I mean, we've got a new sofa delivered. That's about
Speaker 1: as exciting as it gets. All saying that I finished
Speaker 1: my book oh yeah, which was good, which I was
Speaker 1: going to bring up in this episode anyway.
Speaker 2: Actually, so well, if it's all I think it is,
Speaker 2: it kind of fits exactly.
Speaker 1: So yeah, more on that later. Yeah, but yes, should
Speaker 1: we reveal last week's hair Hmmm?
Speaker 2: It was one of mine. It was quite an obvious one.
Speaker 2: But I feel like we're getting to the point in
Speaker 2: the series where they're maybe going to start getting a
Speaker 2: bit more obvious. It was control alt escape. They're going
Speaker 2: to take control of the situation with Arlow distracting the
Speaker 2: guards and all the people. They're going to swap out
Speaker 2: the coffee for some reason. They're going to run away
Speaker 2: with the diamonds. So you could say their plot is
Speaker 2: just to control escape. I know it was obvious, but yeah,
Speaker 2: the same term, I'm not sure where we're going to
Speaker 2: get it in.
Speaker 1: No exactly, we're getting to the point where the ones
Speaker 1: we've been leaving because we've been thinking out how are
Speaker 1: we going to get that in? They're kind of all
Speaker 1: stacking up now.
Speaker 2: But yes, so this week, yes, we are back with
Speaker 2: episode two of series six. Simon says the summary for
Speaker 2: this on it's quite a long one, everyone says the
Speaker 2: season seven finale of Fantasy Epic The Ninth Circle was
Speaker 2: pretty disappointing. Even show a Spencer Maguire is keen to
Speaker 2: move on to new projects, but not everyone thinks that
Speaker 2: it has to be the end of the matter. In fact,
Speaker 2: Ninth Circle obsessive Simon Smethurst decides to visit his hero
Speaker 2: to help put things right, because that's what the fans
Speaker 2: would want.
Speaker 1: Cool, it's almost as long as the episode.
Speaker 2: Thoughts, I like it, I really like it. A couple
Speaker 2: of gripes, but yeah, I do really like it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's quite an awkward one to be sitting here
Speaker 1: doing a podcast about it. Yeah, how ironic.
Speaker 2: But yeah, with a podcast, of course you do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think that's quite understandable, making a
Speaker 1: podcast about a show he loves, Great Adventure, Mystery Romance.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's obviously a very good show.
Speaker 2: He's clearly everyone loved it. It is. It is so
Speaker 2: like relevant that it's like continues to be with every
Speaker 2: big series that gets a finale. It just reinforces this
Speaker 2: thing that it's almost impossible to stick a landing in
Speaker 2: these things that pleases. It is everyone not even pleases,
Speaker 2: everyone pleases a majority is impossible.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I do think it's because everyone gets so invested
Speaker 1: in it and they've invested a lot of time in it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and then it lives in your own imagination.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Plus it's the sort of wisdom of crowds thing
Speaker 2: of like go back twenty years or not even that long,
Speaker 2: Like people couldn't talk so openly about it and discuss
Speaker 2: it as easily. It would just be with their friends,
Speaker 2: and that would be it. Whereas now you've got Reddit
Speaker 2: and you've got all these forums and all these things,
Speaker 2: and people will ultimately, like a crowd of thousands will
Speaker 2: ultimately come up with a better ending than one person could. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and it's never going to live up to what they want.
Speaker 2: And even if it does live up to what they say, well,
Speaker 2: then they're going to be disappointed because oh, well that
Speaker 2: was the obvious answer or whatever. Yes, you just can't win.
Speaker 1: No, But also it is that you know, artistic integrity
Speaker 1: and like, you know, the person who created it, surely
Speaker 1: their vision must count for something.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you think so.
Speaker 1: So I don't know. It's tricky, isn't it. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: obviously for them as as you know, creators, writers, showrunners themselves,
Speaker 1: it's well, there's that side of it. But I feel
Speaker 1: like they're also quite nerdy, fan inclined people themselves, So
Speaker 1: I feel like there's probably the two sides there. They
Speaker 1: probably understand both sides.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they are such fanboys of certain genres. Yeah, it's
Speaker 2: so hard not to do what they complain fans do. Like,
Speaker 2: everyone's got an opinion. It doesn't mean your opinion's worth anything,
Speaker 2: but everyone's got one.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean, obviously we will get into it,
Speaker 1: but I feel like this episode does quite a good
Speaker 1: job of showing Okay, you know there's the extreme unpleasant
Speaker 1: side of fandom, but there's also a more gentle, sort
Speaker 1: of appreciative and nicer side of it as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's all about trying to stay on the right side.
Speaker 1: Yes exactly. But I don't think anyone thinks they're on
Speaker 1: Simon's side, just that you all think you're doing the
Speaker 1: right thing. It's like, you know, the villain is never
Speaker 1: the villain in their own story.
Speaker 2: It's the Internet to blame. I blame the Internet for
Speaker 2: all of that.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, the Internet is the root of all evil,
Speaker 1: says we're making a podcast.
Speaker 2: But it's where it comes from. If it's come from
Speaker 2: a place of actual love of the thing, oh exactly, exactly,
Speaker 2: then it's a bit different.
Speaker 1: The Internet's just the just the medium. It's the people
Speaker 1: and the the culture that can come up. Because I
Speaker 1: don't know, I was I was going to bring this up.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure when was the right moment, but maybe
Speaker 1: now that it's it's interesting. I don't get it. But
Speaker 1: Reys Sheersmith mm HM has quite a following and some
Speaker 1: of his fans can be a bit strange to put
Speaker 1: it that way. I mean, obviously this episode is a
Speaker 1: lot about parasocial relationships, and I feel like, I don't
Speaker 1: know what it is about this man, Reece Shearsmith that
Speaker 1: seems to inspire an awful lot of that from what
Speaker 1: I've seen online.
Speaker 2: Interesting yep, And I mean I feel.
Speaker 1: Sorry for him that he has this going on.
Speaker 2: It must be so scary. Yeah, you put these things
Speaker 2: out into the world and it's just oh, well, like
Speaker 2: I don't make a spreadsheet at work and then expect
Speaker 2: to get vilified on the internet for it.
Speaker 1: Whatever.
Speaker 2: It's just at work, I replied to an email or whatever,
Speaker 2: like it's the same thing at the end of the day. Yes,
Speaker 2: but your work is seen by millions hopefully, and yeah,
Speaker 2: it's then what people do with that. Yeah, it must
Speaker 2: be weird. Like, you know, when you go to these conventions,
Speaker 2: it's like all these most people have gone are meaning well,
Speaker 2: but when you get someone that's you know, brings up
Speaker 2: some pasta glued together the thing of you or whatever
Speaker 2: that they want to give you, and it must be
Speaker 2: really weird.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, yeah, I guess a pasta glue together
Speaker 1: thing isn't isn't that?
Speaker 2: You know what you see? You see all the tiktopes
Speaker 2: of people presenting things to people. Yeah yeah, oh I
Speaker 2: don't know. I get such secondhand embarrassment.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Now, I think for me it's more like the
Speaker 1: you know, keeping tabs on where you're going to be
Speaker 1: and being there so that you can follow them and
Speaker 1: sort of you know, it becomes a bit stalkrish.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, but no, but.
Speaker 1: All of it is. I know it's a it's all related,
Speaker 1: but it's like where you draw the line, like between
Speaker 1: being a fan and being inappropriate and not respectful.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's one thing like going to a stage door
Speaker 2: of for play. There's another thing like hunting them down
Speaker 2: at a restaurant or wherever.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah yeah, so yeah, I'm sure none of our
Speaker 1: listeners are that way inclined.
Speaker 2: Yea, yeah, don't find me and Tesca.
Speaker 1: No, oh, I didn't mean for us. I meant for.
Speaker 2: I have to go out in the big hat and
Speaker 2: the glasses.
Speaker 1: Now yeah, yeah, someone will just seeing Tescas and they
Speaker 1: just hear some voice saying I haven't considered that.
Speaker 2: I know that. Someone did say to me at work
Speaker 2: they'd heard I did a podcast and I was like,
Speaker 2: that's weird. How did that happen?
Speaker 1: How did that get around?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. He didn't want, he wouldn't say,
Speaker 2: And I'm like, that's even creepier.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is funny, isn't it.
Speaker 2: You told anyone? Yeah, it's very weird. Hi, if you're listening, Pablo.
Speaker 1: Yeah, a few quite a few episodes ago, we did
Speaker 1: Empty Orchestra. I was saying about the character that Steve
Speaker 1: played reminded me very much of my colleague. And then
Speaker 1: when I left my place of work, my colleague said, oh,
Speaker 1: I might listen to your podcast now you're leaving. No,
Speaker 1: listen to that one, oh dear. Anyway, So the moral
Speaker 1: of that little diversion was, don't be weird about people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, just be normal, Just be normally.
Speaker 1: Respectful, understand that people are human beings.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And also just because you've seen someone on the TV
Speaker 1: a lot and they've been in your living room, because
Speaker 1: they're on your TV, he doesn't mean you know them.
Speaker 2: No, And like it's one thing if they're like a
Speaker 2: director or something where they're not playing a character, but
Speaker 2: especially for actors and things where you really don't know
Speaker 2: them you've never seen the real them very much.
Speaker 1: So weird though, isn't it? Because you hear about people
Speaker 1: who've like played villains and things, or they've been in
Speaker 1: a soap and they've done something horrible to someone and
Speaker 1: then they get attacked in the street or people like
Speaker 1: spit at them in the street and stuff. It's like,
Speaker 1: it's not me, that's a character.
Speaker 2: So weird, isn't it.
Speaker 1: And certain people just can't People can't get their heads
Speaker 1: around it.
Speaker 2: No. I remember. I know this is going back a
Speaker 2: very long time, but a friend of mine's dad once
Speaker 2: worked as a taxi driver in Manchester and he'd got
Speaker 2: someone asking to be taken to the courthouse in Manchester
Speaker 2: because they wanted to see Deirdre's trial from Coronation Street.
Speaker 2: This is going back and he was like, oh, you're
Speaker 2: going to go and see it being filmed? Is that now?
Speaker 2: I want to go and sit and watch the trial.
Speaker 2: You know it's not real, right, it's insane Jesus. Yeah,
Speaker 2: So I worry about people.
Speaker 1: It's like these people who don't don't understand that writers exist,
Speaker 1: and they seem to think the actors just make it
Speaker 1: up as they go along.
Speaker 2: You see, there's a lot more to the credits than.
Speaker 1: The very strange the way people's minds work.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I worry about people.
Speaker 1: Speaking of which, shall we discuss the episode?
Speaker 2: Yeah, probably should. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So Steve's character, Spencer Maguire, great name.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great way.
Speaker 1: Great hair. Yeah, it's amazing, isn't it.
Speaker 2: It's an interesting I like it. I like it.
Speaker 1: And then the glasses he just he comes across as
Speaker 1: such a pretentious you know, he's very he's obviously a
Speaker 1: very crafted image. And that's another thing like that. We
Speaker 1: are in this world now where creates on TV shows
Speaker 1: like that are the sort of becoming public figures in
Speaker 1: a way that they weren't before. Yeah, like Russell cy
Speaker 1: Davies for example. Yeah, you know, he's a face of
Speaker 1: like say, doctor Who in a way that it just
Speaker 1: wouldn't have been in like the nineties, or you've.
Speaker 2: Never heard of him, like not never heard of him,
Speaker 2: but you wouldn't ever hear about what he has to
Speaker 2: think about anything, yeah, thirty years ago. Yeah, in the
Speaker 2: same way. It's strange.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting. It So obviously he's been to an
Speaker 1: awards night, got very drunk in his.
Speaker 2: Club indeed, and come back covered in blood. There's always
Speaker 2: a good way to end a night. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think when when you first watch it, the immediate
Speaker 1: assumption is that he has murdered someone. I think he's
Speaker 1: so like, oh my god, clean, clean, clean, and panicking
Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, like he's trying to get rid of
Speaker 1: any evidence.
Speaker 2: It's creepy music and all that dark room and yeah,
Speaker 2: what's he done.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a nice apartment he has.
Speaker 2: M Yeah, it's nice. Which were not necessarily in a
Speaker 2: nine this week the apartment wise, no, which is fine.
Speaker 2: I'm not complaining. I thought you're going to tell.
Speaker 1: Me of no. No, I know, well, I don't have
Speaker 1: a problem.
Speaker 2: With it in a way that it's not the apartment
Speaker 2: meant they could have gone to different locations, yet they
Speaker 2: still stuck to the apartment.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because it's very much a staple, isn't it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So the way I see it, obviously, the show is
Speaker 1: called the Ninth Circle, which is a reference to the
Speaker 1: circles of Hell. Yes, and I see it as that
Speaker 1: Simon is putting Spencer into the Ninth Circle of Hell
Speaker 1: by what he's doing to him effectively, so he is
Speaker 1: inside it in a sense.
Speaker 2: Yeah, especially considering he's not interested anyway in the series,
Speaker 2: like he's given. Yeah, he's dragging him back. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So he is inside the nine of the Ninth Circle?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, yeah, so I can't remember my Dante. What
Speaker 2: is the ninth circle?
Speaker 1: I don't know what the ninth one is now. I
Speaker 1: was going to look that up and I forgot.
Speaker 2: Is that betrayers? I think that's betrayers and things? I
Speaker 2: don't know, because I'm sure that's one step up from
Speaker 2: the Devil who's in like Ice at the bottom, right,
Speaker 2: I'm sure it's like Judice and stuff. Yes, if and
Speaker 2: Brightly is in the ninth Yeah.
Speaker 1: So this show, I mean it's it's obviously a Game
Speaker 1: of Thrones standing.
Speaker 2: No, No, not at all.
Speaker 1: Are you a Game of Thrones fan?
Speaker 2: Yes? And no, I have watched it. I thought it
Speaker 2: was okay. Yeah, I enjoyed it, but not in the
Speaker 2: same way that everyone went mental over it.
Speaker 1: No, I've never watched a single episode of it. No,
Speaker 1: I sounded like one of those people. Then, I've never
Speaker 1: watched a single episode of it. That I'm so proud
Speaker 1: of myself. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I held out until about series five and then I
Speaker 2: watched it.
Speaker 1: Yes, it was all right, yeah, fair enough, I guess
Speaker 1: part of the inspiration for this whole episode is because
Speaker 1: it was it was quite a cultural thing that even
Speaker 1: though I have never watched an episode, but I know
Speaker 1: that the fandom was widely disappointed with the finale.
Speaker 2: Massively yeah, and yeah, I was one of the Okay, yeah,
Speaker 2: I wasn't massively keen on it. It was very strange
Speaker 2: finale it, considering it was such a massive phenomenon and
Speaker 2: like making presumably an absolute fortune for Sky or HBO whoever.
Speaker 2: The last series felt really rushed, I think was the
Speaker 2: main issue, right, and like, I wouldn't have been as
Speaker 2: against how it ended if it had had another five
Speaker 2: or six episodes to get to that point and it
Speaker 2: made more logical sense. But it very much felt like
Speaker 2: they got to an episode or two before the end
Speaker 2: and went, oh shit, we've got to wrap this up now.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, right, this happens, that happens, that apps done. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And it didn't logically build to it in the same
Speaker 2: way that it should have, which is weird considering how
Speaker 2: big it was. I can't imagine that HBO would have said, Nah,
Speaker 2: you've not got any more episodes, No, do you want
Speaker 2: to keep spinning it? Out fine.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, Yeah, it's just endings are so hard, aren't they.
Speaker 1: And also I was thinking, like, for a show that
Speaker 1: runs for so long like that, it just add to
Speaker 1: this thing we were saying about it gives you the
Speaker 1: fans more time with it in their heads and talking
Speaker 1: to each other. Yeah, Like if you just if it's
Speaker 1: just a one season thing and it's it's already been
Speaker 1: made and it's done, and then it airs like you've
Speaker 1: got till the end of that season and it's already
Speaker 1: been done, you don't have as much time to sort
Speaker 1: of think about, oh, it would be good if this
Speaker 1: happened and that happened. Whereas when it runs for years
Speaker 1: and years, you know, you've got all this sort of expectation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know how you end them well, no,
Speaker 2: in a way.
Speaker 1: Can you think of an example of a show that's
Speaker 1: done it really well?
Speaker 2: No? Not really. The other commonly quoted one is Lost,
Speaker 2: which I think ends well. But and this sounds so
Speaker 2: like condescending that if you don't think it ended well,
Speaker 2: you probably didn't really get it. I knew you were
Speaker 2: going to say that, which is such a dickish thing
Speaker 2: to say, but it's so true.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I haven't watched it, but it's another one of
Speaker 1: those such a sort of culturally prominent things.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it ended reasonably well okay personally, but
Speaker 2: I first watch I hated it.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: It was only on the second watch when I watched
Speaker 2: it like series one to six back to back, okay,
Speaker 2: rather than waiting a year year and a half between them.
Speaker 1: So when your first watch, you were one of those thickets.
Speaker 1: I didn't understand it. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And then most people wrote it off and never watched
Speaker 2: it again, I say, whereas a few years later I
Speaker 2: went back to it. Yeah, yeah, I love it now
Speaker 2: I'm rewatching it at the moment with my housemates, so
Speaker 2: oh good. We'll see what he thinks at the end.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I was toying with watching it at one point.
Speaker 1: I was like, that seems like a big commitment and
Speaker 1: it is something that is widely panned as like it
Speaker 1: didn't didn't end well, is there? What is it worth?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I get into it, but yeah, their biggest problem
Speaker 2: for me it feels like it was a show that
Speaker 2: was designed to be about three series, and the studio went,
Speaker 2: this is doing really well, make it.
Speaker 1: Six oh yeah, and.
Speaker 2: They padded it and padded it and padded it and
Speaker 2: padded it. Yeah, like those whole episodes that are rotterly pointless.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and it was back in the day of
Speaker 2: twenty fourish twenty five ish episode series. Yeah, and then
Speaker 2: there was a big like one of those right strike
Speaker 2: things that happened. And yeah, from series four onwards it's
Speaker 2: cut down to about thirteen ish okay, and it's so
Speaker 2: much better.
Speaker 1: For it, oh yeah, slimmed down.
Speaker 2: But yeah, it still should have ended a lot earlier
Speaker 2: than it did, oh dear. And then they had to
Speaker 2: throw in so many weird ideas to keep it going,
Speaker 2: which I think what kind of hurt it a lot.
Speaker 2: But watch it. It's great. Maybe one day at least
Speaker 2: watch the first series.
Speaker 1: The first is great, okay, but also like the American
Speaker 1: thing as well, where they have you know, writer's rooms,
Speaker 1: and it's a huge collaboration. I think sometimes that can
Speaker 1: be a bit of a too many cooks situation.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And then over here we've got more of the sort
Speaker 1: of you know, the singular show runner model. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: that that I think is maybe more, is maybe stronger,
Speaker 1: I don't know. Sometimes, Yeah, I guess you get it varies.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can get pros and cons. Like I said earlier,
Speaker 2: the wisdoms of crowds thing. If you have a group,
Speaker 2: why you know, a big writers room, they can come
Speaker 2: up with a really clever solution.
Speaker 1: To something that's true.
Speaker 2: But equally, like you said, too many cooks and it
Speaker 2: just you lose track of what's going on.
Speaker 1: Then oh, you've got a big writer's room. But then
Speaker 1: there's one like Headhuncho and they don't listen to anyone's ideas.
Speaker 2: So yeah, people's motivations get like characters, sorry, motivations get
Speaker 2: lost because people read them differently and it feels less believable.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what can undrum m hm AnyWho. We've covered about
Speaker 1: two minutes of this episode, so.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's in blood recently even turned up yet.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so he assaulted someone, Yeah, we find out. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a ring of his intercom and it's this Simon chap.
Speaker 2: Reese always looks creepy in and monitor. He always looks
Speaker 2: really creepy and a monitor. I'm sure it's happened several times,
Speaker 2: and it happens once in the last series as well.
Speaker 1: He's a great character, Simon. He's weird, Yeah, creepy and
Speaker 1: kind of scared.
Speaker 2: Hm, you just don't know what he's going to do
Speaker 2: at any moment.
Speaker 1: No, but he's so he's so clever as well at
Speaker 1: the manipulation.
Speaker 2: So invested, Like how long has he been planning this?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Like he knows exactly what to say at
Speaker 1: any given moment, just to make things to play on
Speaker 1: Spencer's mind.
Speaker 2: It's been exactly how he wants it to work.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like even right at the beginning when he's you know,
Speaker 1: Spencer's trying to ignore him and like he wants to
Speaker 1: pretend he's not there, and then he just says about
Speaker 1: making a statement to the police. He's like, maybe I'll
Speaker 1: just go and do that, And then immediately that that
Speaker 1: makes him say, no, no, come on up. Yeah, he
Speaker 1: knows exactly what buttons to push. Yeah he's amazing.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah he's a clever guy.
Speaker 1: Yeah an asshole, but.
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah, I do not don his actions.
Speaker 1: And again, I know we say this many episodes, but
Speaker 1: I really really felt this one was a play like
Speaker 1: needs to be on the stage.
Speaker 2: I was going to say that, yeah totally. Was it
Speaker 2: more fact that said, you know you've written a good
Speaker 2: episode when you think, oh, there's a film idea gone, Yeah,
Speaker 2: this would work so well as a player or a
Speaker 2: film or something like a bigger thing.
Speaker 1: Then yeah, but even you know, it's a very small
Speaker 1: cast and it is just that one location that I
Speaker 1: could totally see this on the stage.
Speaker 2: Like yeah, it'd be p yeah, perfect.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So Simon tells him that he basically he filmed
Speaker 1: this incident with another fan yeah, called Gavin.
Speaker 2: At this point, Spencer only thinks he's hurt him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, he only thinks he's hurt him. But then
Speaker 1: Simon just casually drops that, oh he's dead.
Speaker 2: So casually, yeah, I think you're pressed charges he's dead.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, yeah, poor Spencer at this point, like it's
Speaker 2: that thing that you sort of feel like you might
Speaker 2: lose your temper for two seconds and that's your life
Speaker 2: over just because of something you did by mistake. Yeah,
Speaker 2: what must be going through Spencer's mind at that point.
Speaker 2: It doesn't really take much for Simon to really skew
Speaker 2: him in the direction he wants him to go.
Speaker 1: I mean, even when he thinks it's just he's just
Speaker 1: assaulted it, h that's bad enough. The level of panic
Speaker 1: that he has about oh god, this is probably ruined
Speaker 1: my career. Yeah, to then realize actually he's dead. Crazy.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Do you find it a bit of a stretch though,
Speaker 2: that he thinks that Simon's phone will be the only evidence.
Speaker 2: When he's in apparently the center of London, there'll have
Speaker 2: been like two hundred and seven CCTV cameras point at
Speaker 2: that spot.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Maybe it was a dark alley.
Speaker 2: I mean it was near embankment. I don't imagine his
Speaker 2: own one. There's going to be a camera every two
Speaker 2: inches in that area.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh well, and helpfully Simon has got rid of
Speaker 1: the body.
Speaker 2: I saw it. It's fine, You're good.
Speaker 1: Because he's his number one fan.
Speaker 2: Do anything for him.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So weird, isn't it? Like I said earlier, this
Speaker 1: parasocial thing. He talks to him straight away, talks to
Speaker 1: him like he's known him all his life.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so weird, like when someone knows you but
Speaker 2: you have no idea about anything about them. Yeah, he's
Speaker 2: so uncomfortable for Spencer.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the ownership as a fan, like the ownership
Speaker 1: over the work. When he says about is this the
Speaker 1: award that we won? Yeah, what do you mean we like?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't remember you filming anything proofreading my script.
Speaker 1: So yeah, although sports people are the same, Like when
Speaker 1: my mum's like, oh, you know we won against man
Speaker 1: you last night, did you? I didn't know you won.
Speaker 2: The pitch, let's say that to my mum as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean he's a very unlikeable I think.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't think Spence is a particularly likable character. I
Speaker 1: think Simon is just so creepily unlikeable.
Speaker 2: No that's not the best, but yeah, Simon is weird.
Speaker 1: Thing is you can like, yeah, Spencer is not very nice,
Speaker 1: but he is in a very high stress situation, and
Speaker 1: you can you can understand, like when he's being treated
Speaker 1: like this by somebod who doesn't know, like yeah, you
Speaker 1: can understand him and pissed.
Speaker 2: Off, like yeah he's been blackmailed like oh yeah, and
Speaker 2: presumably he's been drinking as well, so he's not going
Speaker 2: to be exactly fully there, like he's going to be
Speaker 2: saying what he thinks rather than you're not going to
Speaker 2: be polite about it. M M. Circumventing. It's a fantastic podcast, Yeah,
Speaker 2: very clever. Is there some team somewhere that's just churning
Speaker 2: out pun names for stuff? Probably like This is great.
Speaker 2: It's like whenever you see a coffee shop in a show,
Speaker 2: and it's always like has been or been there, done
Speaker 2: that or whatever. If they're not some clever pun i'd
Speaker 2: feel like someone's wasted the time.
Speaker 1: Yes, you mentioned it earlier, but just that fantastic moment
Speaker 1: of I have a podcast. Of course you fucking do.
Speaker 2: It's almost like I can imagine them. I love both
Speaker 2: of these guys, but I'm a little bit scared of
Speaker 2: Reese and I can imagine like having that exact response
Speaker 2: then yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like if you met him at stage door and
Speaker 1: you said, I'll actually do a podcast about your work.
Speaker 1: Oh great, Right, what's it called a listen.
Speaker 2: Queue if you don't have a podcast.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just I just love the dynamic and the
Speaker 1: sort of the power play where like Spencer's trying to
Speaker 1: get rid of him, like you know, I'll book you
Speaker 1: a taxi and all that. Yeah, and then again he
Speaker 1: didn't knows exactly what to say. It's like, oh, I
Speaker 1: hope the police don't question me. I'm not very good
Speaker 1: under pressure.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's so good, But.
Speaker 1: Then it also shifts a bit, and you think because
Speaker 1: he tells him to go and go into the other
Speaker 1: room or whatever, and he, you know, slides the chain
Speaker 1: on the door, and it's like he looks a bit sinister,
Speaker 1: and you think, oh, actually, is this manipulation getting him
Speaker 1: in trouble? And he's he's in danger. What's what's s
Speaker 1: Spencer going to do to him?
Speaker 2: Yeah, this isn't ton of mine. He very easily could
Speaker 2: have killed him right then. The whole ex it could
Speaker 2: have been covering it up or whatever. But yeah, Simon's
Speaker 2: got a great way with people and has totally chose
Speaker 2: to use these powers for evil.
Speaker 1: Yes, he's a weezy little ship. So he stays the
Speaker 1: night m M.
Speaker 2: Because the taxi back to sometimes would be quite expensive.
Speaker 1: It would be I imagine, Yes, it would be a lot.
Speaker 2: Yes, that's at least five hours of driving. It's a
Speaker 2: long old way. But E's happy because he gets to
Speaker 2: stay in the spare room with the head of facts. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and the way he's like, oh, the fans will wet
Speaker 2: themselves over this or whatever. It's like I fully expected
Speaker 2: Spencer to be like, you're not telling the fans about this?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know exactly, Yeah, but he's like yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: go along with it. But yeah, he's got such a
Speaker 1: glow of like I'm special, I get to stay the
Speaker 1: night at Spencer a Guire's house.
Speaker 2: His plans working.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's I don't know, it's so cringey. M So
Speaker 1: next morning, yep, we find out his goal what he wants.
Speaker 2: We'll have an ultimate finale. Please get on that straight away.
Speaker 2: I don't going back to Game of Thrones. That was
Speaker 2: a big thing at the time. People want Game of
Speaker 2: Thrones that there was like people putting with petitions and
Speaker 2: stuff for them to refilm it.
Speaker 1: I heard about this that apparently there was a go
Speaker 1: fundme so like trying. You know, I don't know what
Speaker 1: they thought was going to happen.
Speaker 2: No, I don't know either, but yeah, there definitely was
Speaker 2: m It's like, what they're going to do get everyone
Speaker 2: back together, like all these sets will be locked to bits,
Speaker 2: Like how how do you really think this is going
Speaker 2: to work? But it was so hated that it almost
Speaker 2: sort of started to make sense that it could happen. Yeah,
Speaker 2: obviously I never believed it would, but yeah, at what
Speaker 2: point does something have to be that hated that they
Speaker 2: would do it?
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's weird because yeah, they would never it would
Speaker 1: be an omission that they were wrong essentially, and you
Speaker 1: know they're never going to do that.
Speaker 2: The similar thing with Stranger Things recently when that ended.
Speaker 1: Oh yes I heard about that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but everyone was like it wasn't a bad ending
Speaker 2: spoilers if you a Strange of Things fan and had
Speaker 2: watched it, But it was very much like if you'd
Speaker 2: put a gun to someone's head and said, how end
Speaker 2: this like the most straightforward way you can? That would
Speaker 2: be kind of how it ends. Like it's not it's
Speaker 2: not particularly clever, it just sort of ends how you
Speaker 2: might expect it would.
Speaker 1: Well, that's that's better than something.
Speaker 2: It's not bad. Yeah, it's just not what people maybe
Speaker 2: hoped it would be.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I'd rather a straightforward, yeah that works ending
Speaker 1: rather than you know, one that goes completely off the boy. Yeah.
Speaker 2: But then everyone was like afterwards saying that they thought
Speaker 2: it was so obviously like so straightforward and boring.
Speaker 1: They thought it was going to be a secret finale,
Speaker 1: didn't they.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but they thought that this was all like a
Speaker 2: dream and like yeah, and people had themselves so convinced
Speaker 2: over it, like part of me almost wants someone to
Speaker 2: do that. How cool would that be if just out
Speaker 2: of the Blue, they drop a new episode that was
Speaker 2: you weren't expecting. Yeah, that says that, yeah, everything you
Speaker 2: watch was wrong, Like this is the real ending. But
Speaker 2: to do that, you've got to be so confident that
Speaker 2: what you're ending, that your real ending.
Speaker 1: Is actually good is yeah, it's worse.
Speaker 2: So your real ending is not that great, but it's
Speaker 2: even worse. But as of recording, there isn't a secret
Speaker 2: episode that's dropped.
Speaker 1: Of course not so yes, so he wants Spencer to
Speaker 1: write a new finale. It's a serious seven M and
Speaker 1: we get all this back and forth about things that
Speaker 1: are thought of in the fan and like the two
Speaker 1: heterosexual men that the fans ship yep, which is hilarious.
Speaker 1: That happens all the time.
Speaker 2: All the time. Sometimes you feel like it's intentional, and
Speaker 2: sometime times is just the fans finding anything.
Speaker 1: That's the thing. Yeah, Like sometimes it's it's kind of arguable,
Speaker 1: mm hmm. Like I know in the Sherlock fandom, there
Speaker 1: was a huge I mean there's lots in Sherlock, but
Speaker 1: like mainly Sherlock and John people were like, oh, they
Speaker 1: have such a chemistry and blah blah blah. And I
Speaker 1: know that Martin Freeman and Benedict cumberbat Is, both quite
Speaker 1: serious actors that take themselves quite seriously, got quite pissed
Speaker 1: off with it, and we're like, you know, I remember
Speaker 1: them being interviewed once or a panel or something, and
Speaker 1: Benedict cumberback to being like, it's just quite frustrating when
Speaker 1: it goes against what you're trying to do as an actor,
Speaker 1: and Stephen Moffat sitting next to him sort of trying
Speaker 1: to say, shut up, you know, don't puss them off.
Speaker 2: We need these fans.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they can write what they want on Reddit and
Speaker 2: make all the fan fictions they want exactly, but we
Speaker 2: need them. Yeah. That was another one, wasn't it? Sherlock?
Speaker 2: That ended on what everyone thought was going to be,
Speaker 2: that there was a secret another episode coming.
Speaker 1: Oh I don't remember. I remember the finale, and I
Speaker 1: remember it being a lot of people disappointed.
Speaker 2: So many people hated it that they were certain that
Speaker 2: it was intentionally done badly, which must be the most
Speaker 2: galling thing to not only people don't like it, but
Speaker 2: people think you've intentionally made it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh, come on, stop pulling our legs. That wasn't
Speaker 1: really what you're delivering as the ending.
Speaker 2: That was really the best I could manage.
Speaker 1: Sorry, yeah, good one. Stephen pull the other one.
Speaker 2: At the press night, feeling like, guys, are you free
Speaker 2: next week to film another end?
Speaker 1: And so yeah, so he plays his his chump card
Speaker 1: keeps coming back to he's got this footage that Spencer
Speaker 1: thought deleting off the phone meant that it was gone forever.
Speaker 2: Bless him. So yeah, fall on blackmail territory, and it's
Speaker 2: gotten proper creepy, like he stole his phone. He's arranged
Speaker 2: a meeting with the agent for like now he's apparently
Speaker 2: got he's his pa now. Yes, it's all escalated very quickly.
Speaker 1: I was going to say, I'm surprised that the agent
Speaker 1: went along with it, but I suppose he could have
Speaker 1: just pretended, you know, he's hired me as PA or whatever.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the agent's an interesting character, Loretta lamb. Yeah, I
Speaker 2: find it weird if an agent doesn't actually like the
Speaker 2: thing that you make, like that your main work. Yes,
Speaker 2: I could understand it if like maybe she'd liked his
Speaker 2: she'd like this, but she'd not liked his second project
Speaker 2: he'd come on to. But yeah, his main thing that
Speaker 2: he's known for.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well I mean he talks about years of experience
Speaker 1: in the industry. I'm assuming maybe she liked something he'd
Speaker 1: worked on previously. Yeah, and then this thing that happened
Speaker 1: to be really successful. She wasn't keen on herself, but
Speaker 1: I suppose, but it is. It is a funny moment
Speaker 1: when she says, oh, I haven't seen it, Darling leaves
Speaker 1: me cold. All that dungeons and dragons. Yeah, she's great
Speaker 1: though that. She's so like showbiz Darling.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Darling, Darling. Yeah, she's well happy. Yeah. I
Speaker 2: guess work for him is probably drying up a little
Speaker 2: bit because he didn't do so well. She's probably thinking
Speaker 2: we can redeem this. I won't lose maybe my biggest
Speaker 2: client or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, she's all on board. Oh,
Speaker 2: she doesn't really know what it is, but she knows
Speaker 2: it was bad.
Speaker 1: Yeah, she knows the reaction was bad. Yeah. I just
Speaker 1: like how Simon's trying to sort of excite her about
Speaker 1: the plot. She just doesn't give a shit. No, I
Speaker 1: guess who lit the flame of whatever it was. I
Speaker 1: don't know, Darling.
Speaker 2: Yeah, better than who did the last time.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh, is this the scene where he says about
Speaker 1: characters doing things they should have done in the first place. Yeah,
Speaker 1: really passive, aggressively.
Speaker 2: It just escalates so quickly, and Spencer's in the middle
Speaker 2: of this, going what were apparently we're announcing something that
Speaker 2: I only heard about twenty minutes ago, Like, yeah, I know,
Speaker 2: he thinks he's killed someone. Obviously that's bad. But the
Speaker 2: grip he's lost on his entire life in the space
Speaker 2: of about twelve hours is crazy, insane, And he's not
Speaker 2: won the award. But we didn't expect it.
Speaker 1: Darling, No, no, what.
Speaker 2: Don't matter unless they're my clients.
Speaker 1: Yes, in which case it was absolutely the right decision.
Speaker 1: It's just very scary, Like so you do feel sorry
Speaker 1: for Spencer, even though he's not that likable a lot
Speaker 1: of the time. He's in a horrible situation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, obvious he's not done a good thing, but it's
Speaker 2: not like he's intentionally murdered someone, like, oh, he's just
Speaker 2: snapped and presumably pushed him or whatever, and he's fallen
Speaker 2: awkwardly like exactly, yeah, as far as he knows, and
Speaker 2: it was it.
Speaker 1: Was set up obviously to provoke him, because you know,
Speaker 1: supposedly Gavin attacked or not attacked him, but touched him
Speaker 1: first in.
Speaker 2: Some way, and we've seen how manipula Simon is, like
Speaker 2: people have engineered this situation. Jumping ahead a bit, but yeah.
Speaker 1: So he's just he has him in the palm of
Speaker 1: his hand. Now he can just make him do whatever.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and even when Spencer's trying to get out of it,
Speaker 2: he's like just sort of waving the phone under his chin,
Speaker 2: like I can ruin all of this for you, Like, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: Simon is disgustingly sleazily awful.
Speaker 1: And oh yeah, I feel this is why I should mention.
Speaker 1: So the book that I've just finished, I've been reading
Speaker 1: Stephen King's Misery yep, which I've been wanting to read
Speaker 1: for a while, and I really enjoyed it.
Speaker 2: Good.
Speaker 1: Yeah, much better than The Shining in my opinion, right,
Speaker 1: possibly because it's so sort of self contained and it's
Speaker 1: like quite a small cast obviously characters.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's quite.
Speaker 1: Inside Number nine actually when you think about it, Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, one location pretty much. But yeah, like I'm
Speaker 1: having just finished that book and watching this episode, I
Speaker 1: kept thinking of it just kind of like you know,
Speaker 1: in the book Misery, she she claims to be his
Speaker 1: number one fan, and she's she's got all this power
Speaker 1: over him because he's lost the use of his legs. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and she's just like, you know, forcing him to change
Speaker 1: the ending of a book that she didn't like, like
Speaker 1: to bring character back that died. It's very similar.
Speaker 2: Actually, yeah, I don't I've not read it and I've
Speaker 2: not seen the film, but that I was quite struck.
Speaker 2: How what I knew?
Speaker 1: I plan to watch the film.
Speaker 2: The film's meant to be really good, I think, but
Speaker 2: then everyone goes on says how great the shining is
Speaker 2: so well maybe and I'm not such a fan.
Speaker 1: Yes, I did read about I mean no spoilers for
Speaker 1: I won't go to spoilers, but I did read about
Speaker 1: one thing that they changed for the film, the Misery,
Speaker 1: which seems a bit disappointing, but I'm sure they had
Speaker 1: their reasons. But apparently Kathy Bates won an Oscar for it,
Speaker 1: So yeah, I think she should be good.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what made her a big name, isn't it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that character of Annie Wilks was just so fascinating
Speaker 1: and like delicious to read, like because she is in
Speaker 1: set she's absolutely insane. Yeah, and yeah, I got a
Speaker 1: lot of vibes of that from Simon in this.
Speaker 2: I never heard any like them say that it was
Speaker 2: intentionally based on it, But no, hard to imagine it isn't.
Speaker 1: Yeah, influenced, I would imagine. Yeah, it's just having having
Speaker 1: that much power. I mean, it's never a good thing,
Speaker 1: is it having that much power over somebody?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what the execs are for the studio.
Speaker 1: So he makes him do his podcast. I love that
Speaker 1: bit about do you have any idea how many times
Speaker 1: a week I asked to do podcasts? And I have
Speaker 1: great pleasure in saying no to every single one.
Speaker 2: You must get inundated with it, Oh yeah, all these
Speaker 2: people and effectively like it's like a job interview, Like
Speaker 2: you're having to be on Like it's not like you
Speaker 2: can just casually do a thing, Like if you say something,
Speaker 2: it's going to be taking out of context and all
Speaker 2: sorts of things are going to get said.
Speaker 1: And yeah, it's it's not a casual thing when you're
Speaker 1: in the public eye.
Speaker 2: Should we get recent Stephen?
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, funny you just say that I sent an
Speaker 1: email the other day. Did you know I was going
Speaker 1: to going to joke? And so I've got a reply
Speaker 1: back saying I take pleasure and saying no, it would
Speaker 1: be quite an honor, actually, wouldn't it.
Speaker 2: I've dissed Hold too many times to.
Speaker 1: To well, I'm sure he feels the same. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I quite enjoy the podcast scene because again, it's so uncomfortable,
Speaker 1: like the way he's is. I mean, you know, if
Speaker 1: you get a guest on a podcast, then it's a
Speaker 1: guest of that caliber, like you kind of want to
Speaker 1: be nice.
Speaker 2: Yes, sir, No, so three bass and not.
Speaker 1: Just sort of like reading them all the terrible reviews
Speaker 1: and yeah, it's so awful, it's so painful, and he
Speaker 1: just has to go along with it all. Hmmm when
Speaker 1: he says to him about how does it feel hearing
Speaker 1: all those because presumably didn't set it out to make
Speaker 1: a bad episod TV. No, of course I didn't. Oh
Speaker 1: my god. I mean there are a lot of people
Speaker 1: like this in online fandom who probably would say those things.
Speaker 2: And that's half the reason why everyone will say no
Speaker 2: to doing podcasts, because they're like, once you've said yes
Speaker 2: and you're on it, like, then what do you do
Speaker 2: when they start asking you weird questions?
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's no sort of control for you, is there.
Speaker 2: No, it's not like you're going on Graham Norton, like,
Speaker 2: and you know that the kind of thing they're going
Speaker 2: to ask you. M h like even the questions might
Speaker 2: be vetting in advance or whatever. You can say, don't
Speaker 2: ask me about X, Y and Z like you do
Speaker 2: some random person's podcast. Yeah, it's very who knows what's
Speaker 2: going to happens, very ad hoc. Yeah, I hope, I hope.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is obviously like a caricature. M yeah, I
Speaker 1: hope we don't come across like that.
Speaker 2: God, I hope not.
Speaker 1: I don't think so.
Speaker 2: I like to think we're positive as much as we
Speaker 2: can be, and like always constructively positive, constructive criticism rather
Speaker 2: than actual just outright I hate the thing.
Speaker 1: Yes, well, right in, and let us know. The first
Speaker 1: person to tweet us, we'll get a knife degree badge
Speaker 1: in a word search, a cryptic crossword. I love that
Speaker 1: it's a word search as well. That's so shit.
Speaker 2: Yeah, dear, So this is the point where you get
Speaker 2: another trope of casting nobody's as extras or background characters
Speaker 2: or whatever in something because they want a competition characters. Yeah,
Speaker 2: or in this case, actually yeah, they go to quite
Speaker 2: a big character. I assume this was parodying again Game
Speaker 2: of Thrones when they had like they had ed sheering
Speaker 2: randomly in a scene. Yeah, he plays like a is
Speaker 2: he guard and he ends up singing a song and yeah,
Speaker 2: it's it's a bit weird. So I'm guessing that's what
Speaker 2: they're sort of joking about here. Okay, but again, isn't
Speaker 2: it isn't a random like it is a person but
Speaker 2: in the industry in a way, but they're not an actor.
Speaker 1: But I'm like, who are all these listeners that he
Speaker 1: has for this podcast, because apparently eighty seven percent of
Speaker 1: them are voted that he should play this role.
Speaker 2: Yeah, is he is?
Speaker 1: That just him? With like loads of different accounts.
Speaker 2: He's just wrote that it's just it's just a word docular.
Speaker 1: That's a PowerPoint.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just a PowerPoint slide. Show me your figures,
Speaker 2: like I want to see the lugs.
Speaker 1: Yeah. But he's it's like he's got no self awareness
Speaker 1: at all of how awkward is and that he's just
Speaker 1: coming across like, you know, writing if you think I
Speaker 1: should audition for the part, Like yeah, why would you
Speaker 1: say that?
Speaker 2: And even like Spencer's opening question, you know, he talks
Speaker 2: about how you know this was my thing and now
Speaker 2: it's up for any want to pull in any direction
Speaker 2: they want. And Simon's like, yep, exactly, Like he doesn't
Speaker 2: make any bones about sort of hiding what he's doing.
Speaker 1: No, I think I guess part of what this episode
Speaker 1: is doing is looking at like, you know, when you've
Speaker 1: got consumers of a thing that by and large don't
Speaker 1: understand what goes into making something, and they just and
Speaker 1: you know, they sort of armchair experts. Yeah, like we
Speaker 1: are on this podcast, I suppose.
Speaker 2: But yeah, it's like that tweet you see whenever whenever
Speaker 2: the's an election comes around and it's like, oh, the
Speaker 2: comments section is about to terms to the House of Comments. Yeah,
Speaker 2: everyone suddenly becomes an expert.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but there's a way of doing it sensitively, which
Speaker 1: I like to think we try and do.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I like to think we do.
Speaker 1: Whereas sensitive is completely not what Simon is completely insensitive
Speaker 1: and just ham fisted.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're also treated.
Speaker 1: To a bit of Simon's quote unquote acting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, which kind of is back again.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I love that that's what he thinks
Speaker 1: acting is. You've got this nabbing.
Speaker 2: I'm just talk angry. But yeah, he can do what
Speaker 2: he wants at this point.
Speaker 1: Really, that's the thing he has become king if it's
Speaker 1: his own little world or Queen Beets described later.
Speaker 2: And this is the other thing that we never get
Speaker 2: to see, Like what the reaction to this new final episode?
Speaker 2: I know, I suppose we do. Don't we get some
Speaker 2: more series? But could have equally been just as terrible.
Speaker 2: That would have been interesting.
Speaker 1: Only one person's idea, really if yeah, two people maybe.
Speaker 2: But two people like what what Simon? How Simond have
Speaker 2: reacted if the fan base hated his finale as well,
Speaker 2: because they're going to yeah, yeah, by comparison, they might
Speaker 2: like it more. So I suppose it looks good, but yeah,
Speaker 2: go back to the question of how you make it good.
Speaker 2: It reminds me of a quote from Sheldon in Big
Speaker 2: Bang Theory Races. Why can't they just do like VI
Speaker 2: did in Heroes and slowly gradually reduce the quality series
Speaker 2: by series until are begging for it to end.
Speaker 1: That's a great line.
Speaker 2: So that is the fair way to do it, intentionally,
Speaker 2: make no more care about you.
Speaker 1: For exactly Yeah, many shares could take a leaf out
Speaker 1: of that book. So is this where we get the
Speaker 1: montage of him working on it and everything.
Speaker 2: Yeah, bowling up paper, throwing it off screen. Do we
Speaker 2: get the idea that at this point they're sort of
Speaker 2: Spencer's getting a bit on board with it, like, maybe, Begod,
Speaker 2: you need to start with him. Maybe he's actually getting
Speaker 2: a little bit into it.
Speaker 1: Maybe. I mean I felt like it was simply because
Speaker 1: he had to to be honest.
Speaker 2: Well, maybe I don't.
Speaker 1: Think he's ever he's ever particularly thrilled about it, because
Speaker 1: he does say later about, you know, as if I
Speaker 1: would revisit my own work and whatever it is.
Speaker 2: He says the difference between wanting to not wanting to
Speaker 2: revisit it, though, and being forced to and now you're
Speaker 2: in it, trying to make it the best it can be.
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe I didn't get the impression that he was
Speaker 1: at all at any point into it.
Speaker 2: But I don't think he's into it, but that he's
Speaker 2: you know, doing what he can, Okay, because at the
Speaker 2: end of the day, his name's gonna be honest.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, let's try and make a best of.
Speaker 2: A bad situation. Yeah, he's got a final draft that
Speaker 2: he's sending over to the writer, so it's actually happening.
Speaker 2: And then the ship hits the fan.
Speaker 1: Yes, so I put him. I put him big capsule letters, twist.
Speaker 2: One, yes, damn dune, Damn Gavin isn't dead so little
Speaker 2: nick my habit. Yeah, he's so sweet, isn't he? With
Speaker 2: his little accent?
Speaker 1: I added question mark that I'm not sure why why
Speaker 1: the Scottish accent? Why not just use your your normal voice,
Speaker 1: because there's certain lines It does really feel like it's
Speaker 1: a bit of a strug. Oh but yeah, no, he's lovely.
Speaker 2: He's adorable.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So it turns out it was the whole thing
Speaker 1: was staged so that they could get access to him.
Speaker 2: And Gavin would eventually get access, and he's not been
Speaker 2: happy that he's been cut out of it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. They get very very fussy with each other, very like,
Speaker 1: you know, you know, I'd like some time with mister
Speaker 1: maguire and you know, you need yourself, queen Bee the fandom.
Speaker 2: I can just imagine what Spencer's saying in the background
Speaker 2: to all these people in the forums and stuff, like
Speaker 2: you will be selling it all like, oh, Spencer's my
Speaker 2: best friend. Now, look at what we're doing together and
Speaker 2: all this. Oh god, Yeah, it would be unbearable.
Speaker 1: Posting photos on Instagram like selfies together.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely unbearable. So Gavin's had enough and he wants
Speaker 2: his ship signed with his special silver pen.
Speaker 1: And so Simon. It seems that Simon is very angry
Speaker 1: with Gavin for kind of ruining the plan and that
Speaker 1: he's been found out. Yeah, there's a rather unsavory thing
Speaker 1: about photoshopped pictures, yeah, which which kind of takes on
Speaker 1: more relevance later as well. Yeah, so it's very deliberately
Speaker 1: placed there to sort of so the seed that Simon
Speaker 1: has more, it's more than just a sort of love
Speaker 1: for his creativity. It's you know, the man himself. But yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a bit weird Reese's reaction when he's like, you
Speaker 1: know that they were d m T in private, not
Speaker 1: for a public forum, as if that makes it okay,
Speaker 1: just weird.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, spicky. Yeah, all comes to head with Checkovs
Speaker 2: yeah seeded a bit earlier on and stabs him with
Speaker 2: an empty air war.
Speaker 1: Yes, I love that. How quite early in the episode
Speaker 1: he just says, oh you could well, he says, you
Speaker 1: could bash someone's brains out with this, but you know
Speaker 1: you can't say that in side number nine episode and
Speaker 1: then not not expected to murder someone with it later.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I should clarify it's an NTA trophy, not an
Speaker 2: NTA award, because an NTA award is a tautology. It is.
Speaker 2: Well I realized once I said it, and then you
Speaker 2: carried on talking. I was like, no, that your left.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can't let that go.
Speaker 2: Yeah, quite right, even my notes I've got NTA award
Speaker 2: and halfway through writing award, by.
Speaker 1: The way, apparently originally wanted it to be an em yes,
Speaker 1: because apparently they're particularly spiky.
Speaker 2: They are. Have you seen one? No, they do look
Speaker 2: very much like a murder weapon.
Speaker 1: Well there we go.
Speaker 2: They're like an angel sort of statue, but its wings
Speaker 2: are like really sharp, ah pointed straight up makes sense
Speaker 2: And yeah, but no the emmy said no.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so yeah NTA it.
Speaker 2: Was who apparently don't care.
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh yeah with one of our awards. Fine, why not.
Speaker 2: I'd love to know what their order of like then
Speaker 2: we'd have gone to bafter and then we'd have gone
Speaker 2: to like our YouTube for you a trophy or whatever.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they were talking about this on the podcast and
Speaker 1: they were saying, you know, they didn't even think about
Speaker 1: bafter because it just it does. They wanted it to
Speaker 1: be a stabbing, not a bludgeting. Yeah, and so they
Speaker 1: needed something point makes sense.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and when they all like someone's actual trophies that
Speaker 2: were on the crew or something.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the producer Adam Tandy, I think, yeah, just casually
Speaker 1: brings in all his like Nevill Griffin in misdirection. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: put them out on the side.
Speaker 2: That must be an awkward conversation, like we need to
Speaker 2: have a load of trophies and you just sat there
Speaker 2: in the corner going do it look like a dick
Speaker 2: if I say I've got shiploads of yeah, I could
Speaker 2: save them a fortune of having to hire a load
Speaker 2: of things. Yeah. Poor Spencer at this point he must
Speaker 2: have been like, oh it's oh no, it isn't anymore.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what a roller coaster.
Speaker 2: He had a brief five minutes it was safe.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it really is a roller coaster, isn't it.
Speaker 2: That doesn't slow down? So yeah, this bit I find
Speaker 2: so uncomfortable. Oh very I'd forgotten how uncomfortable it was
Speaker 2: until I rewatched this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's horrible because Spencer looks so defeated and powerless,
Speaker 1: and it's it's just very Yeah.
Speaker 2: Simon sort of drags him into the bedroom.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he says, I just want us to be together.
Speaker 1: It's punctuated by the quite amusing turning the head away
Speaker 1: so that he's.
Speaker 2: Not looking at it, isn't looking at us.
Speaker 1: We don't want him looking at a stew we. I
Speaker 1: was on this when I was watching this the second time,
Speaker 1: making notes. I was trying to sort of watch very
Speaker 1: carefully what exactly what Reese's character does. All he really
Speaker 1: does is invite him to lie down, and then I
Speaker 1: think he possibly strokes him slightly or something. But the
Speaker 1: idea obviously is that it seems like he's trying to
Speaker 1: blackmail him into.
Speaker 2: Which the naked photos makes more.
Speaker 1: Sense now exactly exactly.
Speaker 2: These are things that I think we said earlier what
Speaker 2: you would do in a play like I think you
Speaker 2: could flesh out, expand that more, that more and make
Speaker 2: it a little bit more, a little bit less jarring
Speaker 2: when it happens at the end.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it does. It does come suddenly very quickly. Yeah,
Speaker 1: let's not go and then yeah, Spencer suddenly suffocates with
Speaker 1: a pillow.
Speaker 2: If it goes on for a very long time.
Speaker 1: It's a great shot, isn't It's just that's one one
Speaker 1: shot and it's just like actually quite realistic.
Speaker 2: Well, didn't re say that he felt like he was
Speaker 2: actually going to kill him? Yeah?
Speaker 1: There was. I mean I'm not sure how serious they were,
Speaker 1: but that he said there was a moment when he
Speaker 1: slightly lost control and wasn't a wouldn't wouldn't have been
Speaker 1: able to save himself if you needed it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you think you'd have a certain tap on the
Speaker 2: shoulder signal, I like to hope, but yeah, you can
Speaker 2: get it. Yeah, don't condone it. No, I understand that
Speaker 2: the situation.
Speaker 1: I completely understand it. Like I spent I spent the
Speaker 1: whole of misery reading it, thinking, well, he's got a killer,
Speaker 1: He's got a killer. How's he going to get out
Speaker 1: of this? He's got a killer? Like, because you would
Speaker 1: like in that situation, like what else could you do? Yeah,
Speaker 1: for legal reasons, Yeah, I don't condone that.
Speaker 2: But yeah, he just goes for it. Timon is no more.
Speaker 2: There's wanky little glasses.
Speaker 1: And the horrible bit of blood come out his nose.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because it is like you say, all one cut
Speaker 2: of that. Yeah, and Reese is wearing the glasses like
Speaker 2: how he he must have had to knock them off
Speaker 2: his face just before, because otherwise Steve is just pushing
Speaker 2: these glasses into his face.
Speaker 1: Oh that's true.
Speaker 2: Yeah, which, and he probably goes for it and he
Speaker 2: has to make it look real. Yeah, yeah, that could
Speaker 2: do a lot of damage. Yeah, never mind, So getting
Speaker 2: him like you could have blinded him more.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm sure they worked the logistics of that out.
Speaker 2: I hope. So I assume you must knock them to
Speaker 2: the side when you can't see it or whatever.
Speaker 1: But yes, then we get another big twist.
Speaker 2: Kevin ain't dead again again, So.
Speaker 1: I say another twist. It's actually basically the same twist again.
Speaker 2: Twist one was good, I'll do it again.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's a bit like, you know, first from
Speaker 1: Spencer's point of view, it's like that fool me once,
Speaker 1: shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. Thing.
Speaker 1: It's like, wow, they've just done the same thing and
Speaker 1: fooled you again with the same thing, fooling.
Speaker 2: You the second time. Doctor, that's a privilege.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, the same way. But yeah, I find this
Speaker 1: a bit confusing now because I'm like, yeah, this is
Speaker 1: my gripe. Yeah, the intention, what was the intention?
Speaker 2: Because so they explain it that this was all Simon's
Speaker 2: audition for the Baron play this role of the Baron. Yes, yeah,
Speaker 2: which I get makes sense. I don't get why it
Speaker 2: had to be Gavin, Like, it doesn't make any sense
Speaker 2: because he's given up all of his leverage before he's
Speaker 2: got anything.
Speaker 1: He wouldn't have wanted. He wouldn't have wanted Gavin to
Speaker 1: come up.
Speaker 2: No, I couldn't. I could understand Hi wanting to do
Speaker 2: all of this, and like if he'd got another fan, like,
Speaker 2: surely he knows enough people that someone would have agreed
Speaker 2: to do this. Yeah, that's true, And I know, I
Speaker 2: know it works nicely for us to get the reveal
Speaker 2: of Gavin still being alive.
Speaker 1: Because yeah, because it once you once you know the
Speaker 1: full twist, it means that that whole argument they had
Speaker 1: about oh, you've ruined everything was all fake. Yeah, which
Speaker 1: it turns out that Simon is a much better actor
Speaker 1: than we thought then, because that was you know, that
Speaker 1: was very convincing.
Speaker 2: Yes, but surely you would only do all of that
Speaker 2: if you genuinely believe that Spencer was on side now.
Speaker 1: Exactly, so maybe maybe he has come around, or maybe
Speaker 1: at least Simon thinks he has.
Speaker 2: But during that whole thing. Spencer's all called the agent,
Speaker 2: get this canceled. Why do you think I would ever
Speaker 2: do this? This isn't nonsense? I hate this. Yeah, Like,
Speaker 2: surely Simon would know that this isn't isn't working. I
Speaker 2: don't know, and we'll just spun it some other I
Speaker 2: don't know. It just seems a weird plan.
Speaker 1: Yes, it does.
Speaker 2: That sort of throws away all of his leverage for nothing.
Speaker 1: Hmmm.
Speaker 2: And this is just Is it just that he's getting
Speaker 2: too cocky?
Speaker 1: I guess, yeah, possibly, or.
Speaker 2: Maybe he's gotten the point of thinking that like that
Speaker 2: Spencer's so undry, is dumb, and that he thinks Simon's
Speaker 2: so crazy that he'll go along with anything, because who
Speaker 2: knows what Simon's going to do if you say no, hmm.
Speaker 1: I think for me, I think it's it comes down
Speaker 1: to that the sort of double twist. It feels like
Speaker 1: it's written for the benefit of the audience, so that
Speaker 1: we get the and then we get the second. But but
Speaker 1: it doesn't quite make sense. No, like it does. I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't believe that Simon would go through that whole
Speaker 1: you know, that whole spiel.
Speaker 2: Yeah, be one thing, if he'd if he had already
Speaker 2: got a contract signed and then he could still pretend
Speaker 2: to be annoyed that he's you know, cause problems and
Speaker 2: all this sort of stuff, and then done the plan
Speaker 2: exactly how he planned it to be.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm.
Speaker 2: But yeah, when he actually hasn't got anything signed and
Speaker 2: it could all fall through, it's an odd choice.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And also the fact that he, you know, supposedly
Speaker 1: this is an audition for the baron, so he can
Speaker 1: show that he can do the he can do the manipulation,
Speaker 1: and he can do the romance or whatever. But you know,
Speaker 1: why does why does he have to make it so
Speaker 1: sort of relatable to the real situation, Like why does
Speaker 1: he have to say that, oh, I'm going to stab
Speaker 1: Gavin and that means that I can still blackmail you
Speaker 1: and then you know, I'm going to seduce you in
Speaker 1: this bedroom? Why why why does have to be like that?
Speaker 2: Yeah, again, like you said, for the for the audience's benefit,
Speaker 2: more so.
Speaker 1: Because we still think that it's real at that point.
Speaker 2: Yeah, everything up to that bit, it's fantastic. Yeah, it
Speaker 2: really works well for me, and it's just it's just
Speaker 2: a bit weird at the end. Kind of summarizes their problem. Well, yeah,
Speaker 2: is difficult to do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so that maybe that was deliberate. Then maybe it
Speaker 1: is better.
Speaker 2: I don't think it's ship.
Speaker 1: No, no, no, no, it's just a bit odd.
Speaker 2: Maybe it's not quite in character.
Speaker 1: It's one of those where on a first watch, I
Speaker 1: think it's very effective and you think, oh wow, that
Speaker 1: was so good, but when you do kind of revisit
Speaker 1: it and you think about it a bit more, it's
Speaker 1: slightly unravels.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I feel it's it's more our problem than anything,
Speaker 2: because we overthink these things. Yeah, for most people it
Speaker 2: works really well. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So yeah, he's now actually for real killed someone.
Speaker 2: It's not Gavin for once.
Speaker 1: He's been tricked into it essentially, and so all you
Speaker 1: can think to do is to kill the other person.
Speaker 2: Gavin got to die for real?
Speaker 1: M hm.
Speaker 2: How How how he's then got rid of two bodies? Well,
Speaker 2: like in the countryside, I couldn't stand it central London, Yeah,
Speaker 2: from a flat Yeah.
Speaker 1: I don't know, no, but people probably do it.
Speaker 2: Well, Yeah, time jump of a bit. Yes, episodes or good.
Speaker 2: It was a success, got another two series, and in
Speaker 2: being asked for quote about the whole thing, he said
Speaker 2: he did it for the fans.
Speaker 1: Yes, of course he did.
Speaker 2: I never did address that that. I liked Gavin's whole
Speaker 2: speech about the fandom, like, yeah, you might hate them,
Speaker 2: but ultimately, if it weren't for the fans, like who
Speaker 2: is buying all your merchandise? Who is watching a program?
Speaker 2: Who is? It is true, ultimately you are making it
Speaker 2: for the fans.
Speaker 1: It is true.
Speaker 2: They're the ones that are providing the money. Ultimately, as
Speaker 2: weird as they may be. Sometimes there's also, you.
Speaker 1: Know, there's a line between are you making it for
Speaker 1: a general audience or are you making it for the
Speaker 1: real diehard fanatics that go weird about it?
Speaker 2: You know, and without wanting to generalize the likes of
Speaker 2: people that are watching something called the Ninth Circle are
Speaker 2: probably the more fanatical side. Well yeah, they're probably going
Speaker 2: to be the weird obsessives.
Speaker 1: Although you say that Game of Thrones.
Speaker 2: Like very mainstream.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, so I imagine it. I imagine it quite similar,
Speaker 1: But it could easily have.
Speaker 2: Gone the other way. Yeah. Yeah, so I've just been
Speaker 2: told he's done it for however long. I guess Spencer's like,
Speaker 2: well as well, like this, he's already rationalized in his head.
Speaker 2: He's already sort of had to deal with the mental
Speaker 2: gymnastics of accepting that he's killed someone, So is it
Speaker 2: that hard to actually then do it?
Speaker 1: Yeah, he doesn't particularly seem remorseful. No, In fact, he
Speaker 1: jokes about it, Yeah, for his own amusement.
Speaker 2: But I suppose we don't know how long time jump.
Speaker 2: It must be quite a while to a film the
Speaker 2: whole pre post productions happened. Things out probably at least
Speaker 2: a year later.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So you think after a year after killing someone,
Speaker 1: you'd be over it and you'd be Jacob why there's
Speaker 1: a time limit. Yeah, I'm still not. I think overall,
Speaker 1: I'm on the feeling of he's not likable as a character,
Speaker 1: even though I think it's possible for him to not
Speaker 1: be likable, But you also feel sympathy for him, yes,
Speaker 1: which which I do.
Speaker 2: I mean, no one's other than Gavin. No, one's really
Speaker 2: very likable in this episode.
Speaker 1: No exactly. I quite like the agent.
Speaker 2: She's quite nice. Yeah, but she's a bit. She just
Speaker 2: goes along with anything, doesn't she. She's just like, yeah,
Speaker 2: darling whatever, anything for an easy life.
Speaker 1: Just yeah. I also rather liked the end credits music
Speaker 1: this week. It just sounds like it would have been
Speaker 1: the theme tune to the ninth Circle.
Speaker 2: Really they went hard it, didn't they. Someone puts some
Speaker 2: time into that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, should we give it a rating? It's always interesting
Speaker 1: what what I write down before we come to recording, and.
Speaker 2: Then I never write anything down.
Speaker 1: Oh, I put a provisional thing down. This is probably
Speaker 1: Then it often changes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I yeah, same as in it's not what
Speaker 2: I think it maybe would have been. But I've never
Speaker 2: written anything down for it. But the end throws it
Speaker 2: a bit for me. Yeah, because I remember really liking
Speaker 2: this one before and then really watching it today the
Speaker 2: first time, thinking this is really good. I really enjoyed
Speaker 2: the first eighty percent of the episode, and in the
Speaker 2: last couple of minutes is a little bit off, but
Speaker 2: I still really like it. What do I go with?
Speaker 2: I think a seven? Yeah, I think a seven.
Speaker 1: That's exactly what I've got. Yeah, Originally I was going
Speaker 1: to say in eight, right, but yeah, it's knocked down
Speaker 1: a bit. After discussing the ending.
Speaker 2: I was torn seven eight.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, I was a bit confused with the ending,
Speaker 1: and I think discussing it with you and finding out
Speaker 1: that it wasn't just me it was it doesn't quite work. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's a really enjoyable episode.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, it's really.
Speaker 1: Great characters, great performances.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and with something interesting to say, like, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2: It is an interesting debate.
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2: So did you spot the hair? Well?
Speaker 1: To be honest, I never really even think about it
Speaker 1: until it gets to this point and I know you're
Speaker 1: about to ask me, No, I didn't spot it, but
Speaker 1: I'm assuming it's got to be on the side where
Speaker 1: all the awards are, Like, surely it would blend in there, it.
Speaker 2: Would make sense. But no Ah, this is one of
Speaker 2: the ones I did know where it was in advance.
Speaker 2: It's stuck out I think from the podcast where they
Speaker 2: talk about you know, they'd say which where it was
Speaker 2: each week for the previous week. Yeah, and it really
Speaker 2: stuck out in my head for that. It's next to
Speaker 2: the head of Faxos when he turns the head round
Speaker 2: and it because it was filmed when it was he's
Speaker 2: wearing a little a little face mask to show that
Speaker 2: it was COVID times. Oh that's sweet, good a tiny
Speaker 2: little face mask on. That's cute. Okay.
Speaker 1: I thought they were going to fudge it and that
Speaker 1: imagine it was you know, the golden hair a wall
Speaker 1: or something.
Speaker 2: It would fit very well on that shelf.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well there we go.
Speaker 2: Did you spot our hair? Dear listeners, and we will
Speaker 2: tell you where it was.
Speaker 1: Next week we will when we'll be back for lip service.
Speaker 2: We will interesting one. Yes, look forward to that.
Speaker 1: But until then, it's time to close the door on
Speaker 1: number nine.
Speaker 2: Every leave do you?
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the Ninth Degree. If you'd like
Speaker 1: to get in touch, you can find us on Instagram, Twitter,
Speaker 1: and TikTok at ninth Degree Pod, or email us at
Speaker 1: ninth Degree Pod at gmail dot com. You can also
Speaker 1: leave us a rating or a review wherever you get
Speaker 1: your podcasts. Bending mm hm