Speaker 1: This is a very significant tax here for crypto investors.
Speaker 1: It marks a big shift in how the IRS approaches
Speaker 1: crypto traders and understands their trading behavior. If you're someone
Speaker 1: who has been not reporting, get into compliance so you
Speaker 1: can call our offices. You're allowed to amend the up
Speaker 1: to the last three years of tax return, so amend
Speaker 1: those to make them correct. Report your past gains. Then
Speaker 1: be consistent and report everything going forward.
Speaker 2: So to confirm. These centralized exchanges in the United States
Speaker 2: will provide you with these forms and it's your responsibility
Speaker 2: to then file it with your taxes.
Speaker 1: It's correct.
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Speaker 2: welcome into the Thinking Crypto Podcast. I'm your host, Tony
Speaker 2: Edward and joining me today is Clinton Donnelly, who is
Speaker 2: the CEO of Crypto tax Audit.
Speaker 1: Clinton.
Speaker 2: Great to have you back on.
Speaker 1: It's awesome to be with you again, Tony. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Clinton. I think it's a very good time for us
Speaker 2: to be talking because we're approaching the end of the
Speaker 2: year and whether you have you have crypto gains or
Speaker 2: crypto losses, we need to start thinking about and planning
Speaker 2: for tax season. And I think you're the you're the
Speaker 2: expert here and we've talked many times over the years,
Speaker 2: so let's start about you know, what are some tips
Speaker 2: folks need to should have or know for prepping for
Speaker 2: the upcoming tax season.
Speaker 1: Well, this is a very significant tax year for crypto
Speaker 1: investors and it marks a big shift in how the
Speaker 1: IRS approaches crypto traders and understands their trading behavior. And
Speaker 1: this is the year that if you have not been
Speaker 1: reporting your cryptos in the past, you need to take
Speaker 1: serious plan to get current. Let me tell you what's
Speaker 1: happening with the IRS this year. They've had a twenty
Speaker 1: five percent head count reduction, so a lot of the
Speaker 1: people that were let go were new employees, so the
Speaker 1: older employees are all retiring. So you know, the IRS
Speaker 1: is facing a lot of manpower and a lot of
Speaker 1: backlog because of the missing people. Secondly, they have had
Speaker 1: seven Commissioners of the IRS this year. At this point
Speaker 1: in time, the Commissioner of the IRS is the Secretary
Speaker 1: of the Treasury, Scott Bennett. Then, and this is highly irregular,
Speaker 1: they appoint he appointed the Commissioner of Social Security to
Speaker 1: act as the CEO, which is a new position in
Speaker 1: the IRS, basically managing the day to day. So you
Speaker 1: got that guy's wearing two hats, you know, and so
Speaker 1: very strange things happening at the top. I think they're
Speaker 1: basically keeping a tight rain at the Treasury on the IRS.
Speaker 1: The next big thing that's happening is the broker dealer
Speaker 1: reporting right, and this is a bill that went into
Speaker 1: regulations that went into play started last year and they're
Speaker 1: going to see it at a taxpayer level this year.
Speaker 1: Come late January February, everyone's going to start to receive
Speaker 1: a tax form a ten ninety nine DA. DA stands
Speaker 1: for Digital Asset. You're going to get it from your
Speaker 1: centralized exchanges that you use on the in the US,
Speaker 1: so you will not get these from foreign exchanges. You
Speaker 1: will not get these from decentralized and these forms are
Speaker 1: totally new. We've maybe seen forms in the past and
Speaker 1: they were kind of like a bottom line number from
Speaker 1: the exchange in terms of how much your transactions were.
Speaker 1: But now with the ten ninety nine DA, they're getting
Speaker 1: transaction level detail, every sale, every exchange, every transfer, both
Speaker 1: the whether it's two or from your your online wallet,
Speaker 1: and it's also going to include the address that you
Speaker 1: transferred to or from. This is explosive information for the IRS.
Speaker 1: They're going to see now they're not going to know
Speaker 1: how much you paid for those things that you sold
Speaker 1: in exchange, but they will see how much you sold
Speaker 1: it for. They'll see like if you say I sold
Speaker 1: one bitcoin and I got twenty ethereum for it, that's
Speaker 1: exactly the information they'll get. They'll get the time and
Speaker 1: date stamp as well. So it was transfers. They're going
Speaker 1: to say, you know, to you bitcoin came in and
Speaker 1: here's the wallet address which it came from. Now what's
Speaker 1: going to happen is they can start to look at
Speaker 1: these wallet addresses and they can start to reconstruct all
Speaker 1: the other addresses that you're using because they're connected to
Speaker 1: the addresses that they know about. This is this is
Speaker 1: significant influx of information for the irs, and you need
Speaker 1: to take it's coming tougher and tougher to hide. If
Speaker 1: you're one of the seventy five percent of crypto traders
Speaker 1: that aren't reporting your crypto.
Speaker 2: So to confirm these centralized exchanges like your coin base,
Speaker 2: your upholds, your cracking and so forth in the United
Speaker 2: States will provide you with these forms, have all the transactions,
Speaker 2: and it's your responsibility to then file it with your taxes.
Speaker 2: It's correct now they will not be reporting purchases. Okay,
Speaker 2: So if you went from cash and purchase something.
Speaker 1: They're not going to report that. They'll report exchanges one
Speaker 1: coin for another, but they're just focused on the revenue.
Speaker 1: Here is this is big for the IRS because a
Speaker 1: lot of people have been hiding and eventually, even if
Speaker 1: you're trading off on decentralized platforms, at some point in time,
Speaker 1: you know you're going to you want to off ramp
Speaker 1: something and you're going to expose to the I r
Speaker 1: S addresses that you have.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, because I've heard I've seen reports of
Speaker 2: the IRS. To your point, they're going to be able
Speaker 2: to plug into these major exchanges. They're also going to
Speaker 2: be able to plug into blockchain explorers and see all
Speaker 2: the transactions and it's it's all there, right Clinton. Yeah,
Speaker 2: So you got to stay on top of what you're doing.
Speaker 1: Very big. The I r S has for many years
Speaker 1: been using software from Palenteer, and they have the Palenteer
Speaker 1: software called Foundry and this allows Foundry allows it to
Speaker 1: read blockchain information, et cetera. So there's I think this
Speaker 1: is very scary information. And I'll also let you know
Speaker 1: of something this is this is going to this is
Speaker 1: very shocking.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 1: The White House is in the process of looking at
Speaker 1: and possibly signing a recommendation from the Treasury Department to
Speaker 1: join the what's called the Crypto Asset Reporting Framework or
Speaker 1: CARF as we call it c ARF. And this reporting framework,
Speaker 1: the best way I can describe it is it's basically
Speaker 1: a ten nine to nine DA from every other country
Speaker 1: that's signed them this treaty, and they're going to all
Speaker 1: start to report information back to the IRS about US
Speaker 1: traders on foreign centralized exchanges. Think about that. You can't
Speaker 1: hide it used to be a lot of trade offshore.
Speaker 1: Now people are saying, right, well, now you can say, well,
Speaker 1: I'm going to trade a decentralized exchange. Okay, great, but
Speaker 1: at some point in time, you're going to want that
Speaker 1: one coin that's only offered over on finance, and you're
Speaker 1: going to expose an address to finance, and finance eventually
Speaker 1: is going to have to report that back to their
Speaker 1: local tax authority, which passes it on to the IRS.
Speaker 1: Along with these addresses, these all become input to the
Speaker 1: I r S. They start to see it, and their
Speaker 1: Palenteer software will allow them to start to reconstruct people's
Speaker 1: portfolios even at a point of time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you can send your uncle Jerry in some
Speaker 2: other jurisdiction. Some bitcoin here traded for me on leverage,
Speaker 2: make some money, then send me back more bitcoin. You're
Speaker 2: going to have to uh, oh, that's going to be tracked, right.
Speaker 1: You're gonna be exposed. Hey, this is this is super
Speaker 1: super big and uh, it's just because people have become
Speaker 1: very much aware of it because of the Roger verb
Speaker 1: prosecution for tax evasion. And in there the indictment the irs, well,
Speaker 1: the prosecutors described how they took blockchain addresses and used
Speaker 1: basically tools to wander the blockchain and discover all the
Speaker 1: other addresses, and they used an advanced technique called cluster analysis,
Speaker 1: and they could identify which addresses were Rogers and which
Speaker 1: were somebody else's just because of the behavior, and they
Speaker 1: were able to reconstruct the values of his portfolios. And well,
Speaker 1: that case settled at the end of what at the
Speaker 1: beginning of October. Coincidentally, this is when the price of
Speaker 1: bitcoins started to drop. And if you've heard, you know,
Speaker 1: and most recently this came to people's attention from videos
Speaker 1: from Andrew Tate. Have you have you seen some of
Speaker 1: his most recent videos about factions? Yeah, okay, so this
Speaker 1: is this became explosive. People realized that KARF and ten
Speaker 1: ninety nine DA are going to start to report addresses
Speaker 1: people who have never been reporting their crypto gains for
Speaker 1: a long time. Whales who have big lots amount at
Speaker 1: stake are trying to hide these accesses, basically distance themselves
Speaker 1: from all their addresses by taking their assets, exchanging it
Speaker 1: for z cash and which is a zero knowledge proof
Speaker 1: privacy coin, and then later take that z cash and
Speaker 1: rebuy the positions that they want to have now with
Speaker 1: new addresses and new wallets not associated to the old
Speaker 1: They kind of like, you know, the technical name for
Speaker 1: this is called money laundering. Yeah, you know, from a
Speaker 1: from a lower point of view, you know. But they're
Speaker 1: trying to hide the old addresses. And I think this
Speaker 1: is a bad strategy because when you exchange to z cash,
Speaker 1: you're that's a capital gains events, okay, and then but
Speaker 1: maybe that's not discovered, but later people discover that you
Speaker 1: have all of a sudden, this is a big chunk
Speaker 1: of let's say head bitcoin. All of a sudden, a
Speaker 1: big chunk of bitcoin appears on your address. Where did
Speaker 1: this come from? Will that'll be treated as you know,
Speaker 1: income at as wages, and you'd be taxed at at
Speaker 1: your ordinary tax bracket, which is much higher than long
Speaker 1: term capital gains, So you really set yourself up for
Speaker 1: a higher tax rate. Plus you've you've engaged in a
Speaker 1: transaction which have discovered would look to the court like
Speaker 1: money laundering. And I don't think it's the best way
Speaker 1: to protect yourself. I'll give you a strategy for protecting yourself,
Speaker 1: but I think this decash strategy is bad.
Speaker 2: Oh absolutely. I don't understand why people would do that
Speaker 2: in the first place. You know, I don't think it's
Speaker 2: smart to go do those things. With the irs getting
Speaker 2: more sophisticated, they're going to use AI in different technologies. Now,
Speaker 2: this is not twenty seventeen or twenty sixteen or beyond
Speaker 2: before that. It's much more sophisticated. So I think people
Speaker 2: have to be aware and get their taxes in order
Speaker 2: and do the right thing.
Speaker 1: You're absolutely right. I mean, the news is tightening, and
Speaker 1: if you're going to try to hide in a dark corner,
Speaker 1: that corner is getting smaller and smaller, and eventually you're
Speaker 1: going to be blocked from engaging. And basically you're making
Speaker 1: a lot of money, but you won't be able to
Speaker 1: do anything with it because you're going to have to
Speaker 1: unload it at severely discounted prices to get anything out
Speaker 1: of it. You might as well pay taxes. All right,
Speaker 1: it's not that bad to come in from the cold.
Speaker 1: Let me tell you a better strategy I have. If
Speaker 1: you're someone who has been not reporting and you're terrified, rightly,
Speaker 1: for sure, here's what I suggest doing. Get incompliance and
Speaker 1: you can call our offices. We can have a confidential
Speaker 1: discussion about your situation. But get into compliance. You're allowed
Speaker 1: to amend the up to the last three years of
Speaker 1: tax return, so amendos to make them correct, to report
Speaker 1: your past gains, and then be consistent and report everything
Speaker 1: going forward. Here's what happened. Here's how the IRS thinks
Speaker 1: and decides who to audit. They looked at certain data points,
Speaker 1: and the key data point is did you report on
Speaker 1: your tax return all the income that the IRS knows
Speaker 1: about you? Well, this income is coming from ten ninety
Speaker 1: nine forms and in the future year it will be
Speaker 1: a car forms as well. They're gonna see what was
Speaker 1: the total sale values of all that? Now, did you
Speaker 1: on your tax return report at least that many that
Speaker 1: much in sales on your tax return, right, because if
Speaker 1: you didn't, then obviously you didn't report everything. You're hiding,
Speaker 1: they'll auditude. If you report more than that they know about,
Speaker 1: then auditors go like, well, this guy's being honest. He's
Speaker 1: telling is tell us about everything, So they're not going
Speaker 1: to spend time going after the accurate and truthful tax return. Now.
Speaker 1: If you hide, then you're gonna get set yourself up
Speaker 1: for a correspondence or even an IRS human audit, in
Speaker 1: which case they will start to engage the palanteer tools
Speaker 1: to look for past behavior like this and catch you.
Speaker 1: All right, So if you want to prevent that from happening,
Speaker 1: get current and stay current on your taxes now, and
Speaker 1: they will look past you as they start looking at
Speaker 1: who to go after. There's so much low hanging fruit
Speaker 1: for the IRS that they're not going to spend time
Speaker 1: looking for the person who's being honest. Yeah, And the
Speaker 1: second thing you do is you get our tax shield product,
Speaker 1: which is on our website eighty nine dollars a month,
Speaker 1: and we monitor IRS records. We can see six months
Speaker 1: in advance if the IRS is auditing you, and we
Speaker 1: can set up a chance to repair the tax return
Speaker 1: before the audit begins and keep it from ever happening.
Speaker 1: We also will defend you for that price if you
Speaker 1: do get audited. So this is there's no other service
Speaker 1: like it. Those two things are the best strategy for
Speaker 1: protecting yourself.
Speaker 2: That's really great that you can proactively monitor, you know
Speaker 2: if you're someone's about to get an audit. Is it
Speaker 2: like an API type setup where you are able to
Speaker 2: see that.
Speaker 1: In effect, that's how we pull the data from the
Speaker 1: IRS as an API structure. Every week, we pull all
Speaker 1: your tax returns the last twenty years and all the
Speaker 1: the records and flags that the IRS has put on
Speaker 1: your account, which there's lots of minute administrative, but we
Speaker 1: pull it and we can detect if there's an underreporting
Speaker 1: condition which I discussed, or if they've actually flagged your
Speaker 1: tax returns for an audit. It's flagged, and then it
Speaker 1: goes over to the auditors, which are backlogged about at
Speaker 1: least a six month backlog at this point, and that
Speaker 1: gives us a chance to keep you from having me
Speaker 1: get to the audit. If the auditor sees you've already
Speaker 1: fixed the return, he's not going to start it.
Speaker 2: Now, I did want to ask you about staking rewards
Speaker 2: and taxes because we've seen staking has been gotten, has
Speaker 2: gotten to clarity from the SEC. Many exchanges are offering
Speaker 2: staking again. So let's say people earned a certain amount
Speaker 2: of rewards, whether they're taking ethereum, salona, whatever else, right,
Speaker 2: how do they report that for their taxes?
Speaker 1: The IRS came out with a revenue procedure which is
Speaker 1: fairly well down in terms of guidance, and they said
Speaker 1: that staking rewards would be taxed upon receipt at the
Speaker 1: fair market value and US dollars when you received it. Now,
Speaker 1: there is a proposal from that Senator Citia loomis put
Speaker 1: into place called the Digital Taxation Act Digital Asset Taxation Act.
Speaker 1: It's in the Senate and it proposes to change taxation
Speaker 1: of staking rewards and mining rewards until to be when
Speaker 1: you actually sell it later, so you will not be
Speaker 1: taxed upon resus but it'll be sold later. And that's
Speaker 1: in Congress. It's a bill that the White House supports.
Speaker 1: I think there is a high likelihood that don't get
Speaker 1: tasked probably next year. But you know, so some people
Speaker 1: have taken some people are taking a position to say
Speaker 1: I don't want to pay taxes on a receipt. I
Speaker 1: would rather pay later. So you know, we actually work
Speaker 1: with people and we just disclose it and we take
Speaker 1: the more aggressive tax position for the client. We disclose
Speaker 1: it to the IRS, which is that's a way to
Speaker 1: make sure you don't get dinged by the IRS. On that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm of the mindset. I love that bill, by
Speaker 2: the way, I think the stakeing rewards like, I often
Speaker 2: don't sell it. I just keep it because it cruise
Speaker 2: over time and it gains in value. But I'm not
Speaker 2: changing it for US dollars, so I don't feel there's
Speaker 2: a taxable event. But the RS may be treating that
Speaker 2: as income all right, even though it's not being sold
Speaker 2: for dollars.
Speaker 1: It's an interesting bill. I think that's good. I think
Speaker 1: the mining rewards thing is good. I mean the argument
Speaker 1: on is, hey, you don't tax a baker on making
Speaker 1: a loaf of bread until he sells it to a customer.
Speaker 1: Just because it comes out of the oven it looks
Speaker 1: like a loaf bread, he hasn't made money. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's kind of the argument. There are some things I
Speaker 1: don't like about it. I don't like about the bill.
Speaker 1: I do not like the wash sale rule, and the
Speaker 1: wash sale rule Section ten ninety one of the Tax
Speaker 1: Code says if you buy back and ask if you
Speaker 1: sell an asset for a loss and then buy it
Speaker 1: back either thirty days before or after that sale, then
Speaker 1: you are denied the claiming that loss on your tax return.
Speaker 1: That's a very harsh penalty. And it happens to you
Speaker 1: once you find out about it, and then it never
Speaker 1: happens again because you figure out how to You know,
Speaker 1: you basically buy on different exchanges and you don't report that.
Speaker 1: It's a stupid tax. The only argument they have is
Speaker 1: like they say, this is what happens to stocks, we
Speaker 1: should do it for crypto, which is how about this argument, Hey,
Speaker 1: it didn't make sense for stocks, and why do it
Speaker 1: to crypto. It's a tax on being young and stupid
Speaker 1: and how to do taxes. The other thing I don't
Speaker 1: like is the deminimous rule. I think it's a just sep.
Speaker 1: I think it's I think it probably The dominionist rule says,
Speaker 1: up to five thousand, you can exclude from your tax
Speaker 1: reporting transactions where you only had three hundred dollars of
Speaker 1: gain or less. For a total of five thousand for
Speaker 1: the entire year, and you don't have to report that
Speaker 1: on your taxes. Well, guess what, you still have to
Speaker 1: account for all your transactions to be able to identify
Speaker 1: which ones had three hundred dollars a gain. I mean,
Speaker 1: it didn't save you any labor in the tax preparation.
Speaker 1: And you know, an auditor, this is what happens with
Speaker 1: the IRS. They don't want to audit that all right,
Speaker 1: because it's a maximum exclusion of five thousand dollars in taxation.
Speaker 1: With the IRS, I believe will do is create what
Speaker 1: they call a safe harbor, and they basically say, if
Speaker 1: you report this, we're never going to audit it. An
Speaker 1: auditor has very high targets to how much money he
Speaker 1: has to bring in, and he's not going to make
Speaker 1: it by going after people's deminimous amount. I just think
Speaker 1: I think it's just stuff for politicians to talk about.
Speaker 1: It doesn't save anything on taxes, and it's just it's
Speaker 1: just the waste. Oh I like the bill, Yeah, yeah
Speaker 1: for sure. And maybe there's some more fine tuning to
Speaker 1: your point. You know, the points are brought up before
Speaker 1: that gets past. Do you think Trump has floated a
Speaker 1: lot of ideas. You know, we don't know what's going
Speaker 1: to actually come to fruition. Like he's right now talking
Speaker 1: about eliminating income tax. I don't think that's gonna happen,
Speaker 1: But you know, I wonder if they would do a
Speaker 1: flat capital gains tax fee on on, you know, not
Speaker 1: based on your income level, but maybe something lower. I
Speaker 1: think Japan just did something like that for crypto transactions.
Speaker 1: I think that's a really important discussion. Lots of countries
Speaker 1: do different things. Some countries hardly tax crypto. Some of them,
Speaker 1: if you hold it more than a year, they won't
Speaker 1: tax it. In the US, if you hold it more
Speaker 1: than a year, you can tax that lower rate. That's nice.
Speaker 1: But both those rates are high enough rates that it
Speaker 1: drives people in to hiding income. It puts the average
Speaker 1: person into a risky tax position, I think. And I
Speaker 1: actually wrote a letter to Donald Trump and Secretary of
Speaker 1: Bennett a couple of months ago, and I said I
Speaker 1: did not like the Working Group recommendations on tax. I said,
Speaker 1: you know, the IRS has significant difficulties auditing crypto tax returns,
Speaker 1: and my recommendation was to completely eliminate the capital gains
Speaker 1: tax If you do that, you eliminate all that complexity. Further,
Speaker 1: they want to use regulations to make the US the
Speaker 1: crypto capital of the world. And if you eliminate capital
Speaker 1: gains tax along with adding in taxi, you know, tokenizing
Speaker 1: all real world assets, the US will become the center
Speaker 1: of assets worldwide. Every asset in the world eventually would
Speaker 1: be tokenized in the US because it has a zero
Speaker 1: capital gain tax. One of my main arguments for this,
Speaker 1: or except with arguments, but one is presently foreigners are
Speaker 1: not taxed on capital gain activity in the US, right,
Speaker 1: so if a Frenchman invests in stocks in the US
Speaker 1: sells it for a gain, he experiences no capital gain tax,
Speaker 1: whereas the American does. And my argument was, hey, this
Speaker 1: is the same argument as tariffs. Why should foreigners get a
Speaker 1: better rate than Americans. Let's eliminate it for everybody, because
Speaker 1: it's because if we look down the road with tokenization
Speaker 1: of assets and the tokenization of virtually everything on the blockchain,
Speaker 1: when we're taxing every little minutia of life, it's the
Speaker 1: data aspects of it are just phenomenally overwhelming, and we
Speaker 1: don't need to be rolling in this taxation complexity if
Speaker 1: you want to make the US the capital of crypto,
Speaker 1: eliminate capital gains tax, and you're going to hear that
Speaker 1: giant sucking sound of assets from all over the world
Speaker 1: coming into the US. Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely, that would
Speaker 1: be a big win. I would love for something like
Speaker 1: that to happen.
Speaker 2: Let's see maybe twenty twenty six we could get something
Speaker 2: like that, but we'll have to work.
Speaker 1: I think we had a push for it. I think
Speaker 1: this will be an interesting year. I mean, we've heard
Speaker 1: Eric Trump has at least twice that I know of,
Speaker 1: has talked about zero capital gains tax. I've heard Donald
Speaker 1: Trump say it a couple of times. I think it's
Speaker 1: in there. I think they have a long term strategy.
Speaker 1: And my argument is, like, let's jump right to it.
Speaker 1: This whole thing about CARF where we the US shares
Speaker 1: trading information with foreign countries. We don't do that in
Speaker 1: anything else, And why would we start on crypto when
Speaker 1: there's a genuine possibility we may eliminate taxation altogether.
Speaker 2: That's a good point. Clinton, great stuff. Appreciate the update,
Speaker 2: I think very timely, and everybody has to look out
Speaker 2: for that new ten ninety nine DA from the centralized
Speaker 2: exchanges in the US and then you know, make sure
Speaker 2: your reporting is up today. Don't try to hide anything
Speaker 2: because I don't think you want to us with the
Speaker 2: I R S.
Speaker 1: It's the the best way is honesty is the best policy,
Speaker 1: and you'll still make a fortune.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, Clinton, thank you so much. I appreciate you, and
Speaker 2: uh look looking forward to our next chat.
Speaker 1: Thank you, m m m hm