WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.400 --> 00:00:03.720 If if we saw a black rock file for Solana 2 00:00:03.879 --> 00:00:07.240 ETF and I would say, maybe something's going on here. 3 00:00:07.280 --> 00:00:09.400 But they've been on record here for the past week 4 00:00:09.480 --> 00:00:11.320 or so. I've seen comments on a multiple of their 5 00:00:11.800 --> 00:00:16.039 executives where they've essentially said it's bitcoin and ether and 6 00:00:16.920 --> 00:00:19.480 pretty much nothing else at this point. So they don't 7 00:00:19.519 --> 00:00:21.199 seem to have an interest there. But that would be 8 00:00:21.239 --> 00:00:23.199 the wildcard. If you see black rock file, I may 9 00:00:23.320 --> 00:00:23.960 change my turn. 10 00:00:30.800 --> 00:00:33.200 This content is brought to you by Uphold, which is 11 00:00:33.240 --> 00:00:36.119 one of the top crypto platforms out there, which allows 12 00:00:36.119 --> 00:00:38.840 you to easily buy and sell trade bitcoin and the 13 00:00:38.880 --> 00:00:42.079 top all coins in the market. Uphold lists two hundred 14 00:00:42.079 --> 00:00:45.560 and sixty plus cryptocurrencies. They also allow you to trade 15 00:00:45.560 --> 00:00:49.039 precious metals such as gold, silver, palladium, and platinum. I've 16 00:00:49.039 --> 00:00:51.159 been a user of Uphold since twenty eighteen, so I 17 00:00:51.159 --> 00:00:54.840 can voucher this platform. They have full transparency reports and 18 00:00:54.880 --> 00:00:57.600 they don't commingle or lend out your funds. 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If 29 00:01:32.959 --> 00:01:35.439 you'd like to learn more about Uphold, please visit the 30 00:01:35.439 --> 00:01:38.719 link in the description. Welcome into the Thinking Crypto podcast. 31 00:01:38.760 --> 00:01:41.519 I'm your host, Tony Edward, and with me is Nate Juirasi, 32 00:01:41.640 --> 00:01:44.640 who's the president of the ETF store. Nate, great to 33 00:01:44.680 --> 00:01:44.959 see you. 34 00:01:45.599 --> 00:01:47.040 It's so good to be back here. 35 00:01:48.120 --> 00:01:51.000 Yeah, for sure, Nate. I thought of you last week 36 00:01:51.000 --> 00:01:54.000 as the etherorem ETFs went live, Like I got to 37 00:01:54.040 --> 00:01:56.040 get Nate back on and you know, there's some things 38 00:01:56.079 --> 00:01:58.280 developing around the Salona ETF, so I want to get 39 00:01:58.280 --> 00:02:02.959 your perspective there with the Ethereum ETFs their launch. We've 40 00:02:02.959 --> 00:02:06.760 seen some stats and numbers. Has been about a week 41 00:02:06.879 --> 00:02:09.879 or so. What is your take on how the launch went? 42 00:02:10.319 --> 00:02:13.520 Yeah, it's interesting. So we're now a full week into trading. 43 00:02:14.199 --> 00:02:18.000 I think flows overall look pretty strong. I think if 44 00:02:18.039 --> 00:02:22.159 we exclude the grayscale ethereum trust so ticker ETHER, which 45 00:02:22.199 --> 00:02:24.280 I will come back to that in a moment, there's 46 00:02:24.319 --> 00:02:27.120 been about one point three billion dollars that has come 47 00:02:27.159 --> 00:02:32.879 into the other eight spot etheror ETFs. Now, just for context, Tony, 48 00:02:33.400 --> 00:02:37.120 if we were to view those eight ETFs altogether, which 49 00:02:37.199 --> 00:02:39.520 I think is the right way to do it because 50 00:02:39.520 --> 00:02:41.560 he's all launched at the same time, and we can 51 00:02:41.560 --> 00:02:44.080 talk about that, talk about that as well, But that 52 00:02:44.280 --> 00:02:47.400 one point three billion dollars in inflows, that would be 53 00:02:47.439 --> 00:02:51.120 good enough for the top five of all ETF launches 54 00:02:51.159 --> 00:02:53.800 this year. Wow. And here here's the funny thing about that. 55 00:02:54.280 --> 00:02:57.879 The four ETFs ahead of spot E three ETFs. Again, 56 00:02:57.879 --> 00:03:01.639 if we view these cumulatively, the other four ETFs, guess what, 57 00:03:01.759 --> 00:03:05.919 they're all spot bitcoin ETFs. So you know, think about this. 58 00:03:06.000 --> 00:03:09.560 There's been something like three hundred and twenty five new 59 00:03:09.560 --> 00:03:12.960 ETF launches this year, and in the ETF space we're 60 00:03:12.960 --> 00:03:16.960 actually tracking for a record gear of new launches, and 61 00:03:17.080 --> 00:03:20.280 Spot e F ETFs as a whole already in the 62 00:03:20.280 --> 00:03:25.120 top five of inflows after just one week. Now, I 63 00:03:25.199 --> 00:03:29.719 know many people will quickly say yeah, but and that yeah, 64 00:03:29.759 --> 00:03:33.840 Butt is ETH, which has had one point seven billion 65 00:03:33.919 --> 00:03:38.479 dollars in outflows, and the narrative is that the money 66 00:03:38.520 --> 00:03:41.599 coming into the eight new spot Ether ETFs is all 67 00:03:41.719 --> 00:03:45.360 just recycled money, right. It's people moving out of ETH 68 00:03:46.080 --> 00:03:49.319 and it's two point five percent expense ratio and they're 69 00:03:49.319 --> 00:03:54.159 allocating to the less expensive spot ether ETFs. I don't 70 00:03:54.199 --> 00:03:57.039 fully buy into that because we know from the Spot 71 00:03:57.039 --> 00:04:02.560 Bitcoin ETF situation and gbt see the Greyscale Bitcoin Trust, 72 00:04:03.120 --> 00:04:05.960 there were a lot of GBTC investors who were simply 73 00:04:06.000 --> 00:04:09.719 playing the discount to close, right. They were rbing that 74 00:04:09.919 --> 00:04:14.400 discount waiting for Spot ETF approval. And so I think 75 00:04:14.439 --> 00:04:18.319 a lot of the EE outflows are simply hedge funds 76 00:04:19.040 --> 00:04:24.959 and traders taking profits after the discount and ETH fully closed, 77 00:04:25.399 --> 00:04:28.240 and now they have the full liquidity of the ETF wrapper, 78 00:04:28.279 --> 00:04:32.199 which makes it very easy to exit if they so choose. 79 00:04:33.120 --> 00:04:37.160 You have to remember when you think about GBTC and ETH, 80 00:04:38.000 --> 00:04:41.040 we don't know all of the motivations of the investors 81 00:04:41.040 --> 00:04:44.480 who own those products. It's not just long term buy 82 00:04:44.519 --> 00:04:46.600 and hold investors, right. There are a lot of different 83 00:04:46.600 --> 00:04:50.600 types of investors with different motivations. So I guess I 84 00:04:50.600 --> 00:04:54.240 would say, in summary, is there some money that has 85 00:04:54.319 --> 00:04:57.480 been recycled from ETH into the new ETFs? For sure, 86 00:04:58.000 --> 00:05:00.519 but I honestly think it's the minority. I would peg 87 00:05:00.560 --> 00:05:04.680 it at something like twenty five percent or around there. 88 00:05:05.120 --> 00:05:08.560 But either way, what we know for a fact is 89 00:05:08.560 --> 00:05:12.800 that one point three billion dollars in investor money has 90 00:05:13.040 --> 00:05:15.759 wanted to be allocated to spot e three ETFs in 91 00:05:15.800 --> 00:05:18.199 the past week. We know that, I think that's the 92 00:05:18.199 --> 00:05:18.920 important number. 93 00:05:19.560 --> 00:05:21.560 And didn't we see something like this with the Bitcoin 94 00:05:21.639 --> 00:05:24.399 ETF launch where money was flowing out a GBTC, but 95 00:05:24.480 --> 00:05:27.279 then you just saw a surge of new capital come 96 00:05:27.319 --> 00:05:31.040 into the ETFs. And while we don't have all the details, 97 00:05:31.360 --> 00:05:34.199 it's safe to say, Okay, there's a small percentage of 98 00:05:35.000 --> 00:05:39.160 the GBTC excuse me, the gray scale etherorem trust is 99 00:05:39.199 --> 00:05:41.600 coming out, but there's new capital flowing into the ETFs 100 00:05:41.600 --> 00:05:42.040 as well. 101 00:05:42.279 --> 00:05:44.160 Yeah, I mean, there's no question. I mean, what both 102 00:05:44.319 --> 00:05:47.360 GBTC and ETH have done is they've muddied the waters 103 00:05:47.680 --> 00:05:50.360 in terms of trying to understand exactly what's going on 104 00:05:50.920 --> 00:05:54.480 with flows. And to your point, the further away we 105 00:05:54.560 --> 00:05:58.439 get from launch day, the more clearer those waters become 106 00:05:58.480 --> 00:06:02.439 and we can really decipher what's been going on with flows. 107 00:06:02.879 --> 00:06:06.040 My expectation is that it will be a similar situation 108 00:06:06.160 --> 00:06:08.399 to what we saw with the spot bitcoin ETFs. At 109 00:06:08.399 --> 00:06:11.800 the further out we get, the or the outflows from 110 00:06:12.480 --> 00:06:14.759 the grayscale products will start to slow down. I think 111 00:06:14.759 --> 00:06:16.879 we're seeing that a little bit and we'll get a 112 00:06:16.920 --> 00:06:20.319 much clearer indication of how much demand there is for 113 00:06:20.439 --> 00:06:24.279 the spot e through ETFs. I've said this multiple times 114 00:06:24.319 --> 00:06:29.560 and in multiple places. Longer term, my expectation would be 115 00:06:29.720 --> 00:06:34.439 that the demand for spot ether ETFs would be roughly 116 00:06:34.480 --> 00:06:37.519 a third of what we saw with spot bitcoin ETFs. 117 00:06:37.519 --> 00:06:39.959 And it's a very simple calculation. We know that if 118 00:06:40.000 --> 00:06:44.000 you look at the underlying spot bitcoin and etheryum markets, 119 00:06:44.439 --> 00:06:47.079 we know that Ether is about a third of the 120 00:06:47.079 --> 00:06:51.439 market cap of bitcoin. ETFs are simply passed through vehicles 121 00:06:51.519 --> 00:06:54.439 right their delivery vehicles. They're vehicles that allow investors to 122 00:06:54.480 --> 00:06:58.319 get very low cost efficient exposure. But what they do 123 00:06:58.480 --> 00:07:01.560 very well is just replicate the underlying market. And so 124 00:07:01.639 --> 00:07:05.000 if the underlying market has a ratio, you know, roughly 125 00:07:05.120 --> 00:07:08.560 Ether being a third the market cap a bitcoin, that's 126 00:07:08.560 --> 00:07:10.879 what I would expect to see in the ETFs now, 127 00:07:10.920 --> 00:07:14.000 it's possible longer term that changes. Right, It's possible that 128 00:07:14.360 --> 00:07:16.959 Ether goes down and maybe it's only twenty percent of 129 00:07:17.000 --> 00:07:20.160 the market cap a bitcoin, or could go the other way, 130 00:07:20.480 --> 00:07:23.959 maybe it becomes fifty percent of the market cap. Either way, 131 00:07:24.040 --> 00:07:27.199 I would expect ETFs to reflect whatever the underlying market 132 00:07:27.240 --> 00:07:27.720 looks like. 133 00:07:28.360 --> 00:07:32.600 So on that note of it potentially growing, there's talks 134 00:07:32.639 --> 00:07:35.319 about the staking component, which is not currently president in 135 00:07:35.319 --> 00:07:39.240 the et APS. Hester purs SEC Commissioner recently said, you know, 136 00:07:39.279 --> 00:07:42.279 they're going to look into this and the SECU should 137 00:07:42.279 --> 00:07:46.639 re visit it. That in conjunction with change in the 138 00:07:46.680 --> 00:07:49.600 regulatory landscape, politics and so forth, which we'll touch on 139 00:07:49.639 --> 00:07:52.319 a bit later. Could we see next year to stay 140 00:07:52.319 --> 00:07:54.360 can get at it and that drives more demand. 141 00:07:54.800 --> 00:07:56.959 Yeah, there's a lot we can talk about there when 142 00:07:57.000 --> 00:07:59.720 you add in the political thread. But if I had to, 143 00:08:01.279 --> 00:08:03.600 I would say yes, I do think it's a matter 144 00:08:03.759 --> 00:08:07.759 of when, not if. But clearly the SEC isn't comfortable 145 00:08:07.800 --> 00:08:11.040 with staking right now, and so from my standpoint, the 146 00:08:11.160 --> 00:08:15.279 question is, okay, well, what would change that. I think 147 00:08:15.279 --> 00:08:19.360 it's certainly possible that the current SEC comes around on this, 148 00:08:19.839 --> 00:08:22.040 but it's probably more likely that it would take a 149 00:08:22.120 --> 00:08:25.279 change in administration. So in this case, it would take 150 00:08:25.279 --> 00:08:29.879 a Trump administration, which theoretically would then put in Actually 151 00:08:29.879 --> 00:08:33.039 not theoretically. Donald Trump said he would fire Gary Gensler, 152 00:08:33.159 --> 00:08:36.240 so we would have a new SEC chair who might 153 00:08:36.360 --> 00:08:40.639 expedite this. Now, one thing I'll caveat that with and 154 00:08:40.679 --> 00:08:44.080 this gets a little bit into ETF mechanics, so I 155 00:08:44.120 --> 00:08:47.399 won't go too far into the weeds, but there are 156 00:08:47.440 --> 00:08:52.960 some operational considerations around staking within ETFs, because if you're 157 00:08:53.039 --> 00:08:57.120 staking e it's locked up right and it may take 158 00:08:57.960 --> 00:09:01.320 X number of days to unlock it. That could present 159 00:09:01.360 --> 00:09:04.159 an issue if you have an ETF that has a 160 00:09:04.240 --> 00:09:07.039 large amount of each stake and that ETF also has 161 00:09:07.080 --> 00:09:10.840 a bunch of outflows. Now that's not something that ETFs 162 00:09:10.879 --> 00:09:13.720 can't easily overcome. They can get lines of credit and 163 00:09:13.759 --> 00:09:17.279 such to handle that, but there are some considerations from 164 00:09:17.279 --> 00:09:22.960 a liquidity management standpoint, and it's possible, I say possible, 165 00:09:23.000 --> 00:09:25.840 that that's playing a bigger factor in the SEC not 166 00:09:25.960 --> 00:09:28.399 allowing staking at this point, that they just want to 167 00:09:28.440 --> 00:09:33.159 see how the spot ETFs operate in their existing format. 168 00:09:33.240 --> 00:09:35.600 Once they see everything's working properly. Maybe they add that 169 00:09:35.639 --> 00:09:39.240 and they get comfortable operation. However, I think more likely 170 00:09:39.759 --> 00:09:43.840 it's that the SEC is still evaluating whether offering the 171 00:09:43.879 --> 00:09:48.399 staking component trips Ether into becoming a security right versus 172 00:09:48.480 --> 00:09:52.039 a commodity, and that's going to have to get resolved 173 00:09:52.080 --> 00:09:57.120 before staking is allowed. One other quick point that'll make, 174 00:09:57.159 --> 00:09:59.159 and I made this several places as well, but I 175 00:09:59.159 --> 00:10:02.759 think it's an important one, is that, well, there's no 176 00:10:02.960 --> 00:10:08.559 question staking is important. That's part of ethereum, that's part 177 00:10:08.559 --> 00:10:10.960 of the Ether, that's part of the ecosystem. You have 178 00:10:11.000 --> 00:10:14.840 to remember that right now less than thirty percent of 179 00:10:15.000 --> 00:10:19.000 all Ether is staked, and the current staking yield is 180 00:10:19.039 --> 00:10:21.559 only around last I check, it's something like two point 181 00:10:21.639 --> 00:10:24.320 seven percent, two point eight percent. My point is this, 182 00:10:25.559 --> 00:10:28.240 I don't think that this is a huge deal in 183 00:10:28.320 --> 00:10:31.679 terms of driving spot ethere etf demand. It's one of 184 00:10:31.720 --> 00:10:34.320 those things that would be very nice to have, for sure, 185 00:10:34.600 --> 00:10:37.159 if you can get an extra you know, three percent yield. 186 00:10:37.440 --> 00:10:40.440 I'm an advisor. Every basis point count, so it's important. 187 00:10:40.480 --> 00:10:42.440 I want to be clear about that. But you have 188 00:10:42.519 --> 00:10:46.519 to look, Ether is up what forty five percent this year? 189 00:10:46.600 --> 00:10:49.120 This is a high ball asset and so I think 190 00:10:49.200 --> 00:10:52.399 missing out on a three percent yield isn't going to 191 00:10:53.480 --> 00:10:56.759 dissuade investors from buying the spot E three ETFs in 192 00:10:56.799 --> 00:10:57.279 my opinion. 193 00:10:57.600 --> 00:11:00.840 So what etherorem getting the clarity with the ETFs launch 194 00:11:00.919 --> 00:11:04.039 and possibly with a regime change we get this staking, 195 00:11:04.639 --> 00:11:08.279 What does this mean for Solana where there's filers who 196 00:11:08.279 --> 00:11:11.399 will put out their application for an ETF like van 197 00:11:11.559 --> 00:11:12.320 K and so forth. 198 00:11:12.799 --> 00:11:15.279 It's funny because that's the big question now right. We 199 00:11:15.360 --> 00:11:17.759 had the debut of spot bitcoin ETFs, we had the 200 00:11:17.799 --> 00:11:20.000 debut of Spotty three ETF, so everybody wants to know 201 00:11:20.120 --> 00:11:26.240 what's next, and naturally Solana comes to mind. So I 202 00:11:26.360 --> 00:11:30.120 believe the SEC has a decision to make on both 203 00:11:30.159 --> 00:11:33.720 the van K in twenty one share Salona ETF filings 204 00:11:34.240 --> 00:11:38.559 by March of next year. So nineteen B four's were 205 00:11:38.600 --> 00:11:41.240 filed on both of those in early July. So if 206 00:11:41.240 --> 00:11:42.639 you do the math, I think that puts us into 207 00:11:42.679 --> 00:11:46.039 March of twenty twenty five. Now, a lot can happen 208 00:11:46.279 --> 00:11:49.519 between now and then, but as we sit here today, 209 00:11:50.320 --> 00:11:53.919 my sense is that similar to what I just mentioned 210 00:11:53.919 --> 00:11:58.120 with Staking and spot E three ETFs, it will probably 211 00:11:58.279 --> 00:12:02.960 take a trump administration in order to get Solana ETFs 212 00:12:02.960 --> 00:12:07.279 approved at least in the shorter term. And my rationale 213 00:12:07.360 --> 00:12:09.480 for that, Tony, is that there's just been nothing to 214 00:12:09.519 --> 00:12:13.320 indicate that at Kamala Harris administration, which theoretically they would 215 00:12:13.399 --> 00:12:18.919 keep a Gensler led sec impact, there's been no indication 216 00:12:19.080 --> 00:12:22.440 they have any interest in further embracing crypto right now. 217 00:12:23.000 --> 00:12:27.159 That could change, but you might recall last we chatted, 218 00:12:27.960 --> 00:12:29.840 I said it would take one of two things in 219 00:12:29.960 --> 00:12:33.360 order for additional Spot crypto ETFs to come to market, 220 00:12:33.440 --> 00:12:36.879 which would include obviously Solana. So number one, we either 221 00:12:37.000 --> 00:12:40.879 need regulated futures contracts to be trading, so in this case, 222 00:12:40.879 --> 00:12:44.919 we would need CME traded Solana futures, which keep in mind, 223 00:12:45.000 --> 00:12:47.559 even if we got those, they still have to have 224 00:12:47.600 --> 00:12:49.799 a track record. Then we would probably need to see 225 00:12:50.039 --> 00:12:53.200 Solana futures ETFs, and then you'd get the Spot ETF. 226 00:12:53.279 --> 00:12:56.679 So you're talking probably, you know, a couple of years 227 00:12:56.919 --> 00:12:59.519 at a minimum for that to play out. The other 228 00:12:59.639 --> 00:13:06.000 path would be Congress implementing a crypto regulatory framework that 229 00:13:06.120 --> 00:13:09.480 clearly spells out what is the security and what isn't. 230 00:13:10.960 --> 00:13:14.960 We had some some movement on that in may would 231 00:13:14.960 --> 00:13:17.159 fit twenty one and those sorts of things, but in general, 232 00:13:17.159 --> 00:13:20.440 there just hasn't been much progress on either of those, 233 00:13:21.480 --> 00:13:23.639 and so it feels to me like it would take 234 00:13:23.639 --> 00:13:26.840 a change in administration in order to get a Salona 235 00:13:26.919 --> 00:13:32.039 ETF in twenty twenty five. It is certainly possible that happens, 236 00:13:32.080 --> 00:13:35.559 I think, both the change in administration and Solana ETF approval, 237 00:13:36.039 --> 00:13:39.399 but I just think that's a tough thing to handicap 238 00:13:39.919 --> 00:13:43.279 right now. The other thing that I'll mention real quick 239 00:13:43.360 --> 00:13:46.080 is it pertains to a Salana ETF or any other 240 00:13:46.639 --> 00:13:51.559 spot crypto ETF, is that even like let's say, Congress 241 00:13:51.639 --> 00:13:55.279 is able and fairly short order to put in a 242 00:13:55.320 --> 00:13:59.639 full crypto regulatory framework, the SEC is still going to 243 00:13:59.639 --> 00:14:03.279 need to be comfortable with how they're surveilling the underlying 244 00:14:03.399 --> 00:14:06.879 spot market. So whatever the spot crypto is, that the 245 00:14:06.879 --> 00:14:13.120 ETF would hold because remember right now crypto exchanges are unregulated. Now, 246 00:14:13.320 --> 00:14:17.360 perhaps a crypto regulatory framework, if that's implemented, that would 247 00:14:17.360 --> 00:14:20.440 all be clarified, and so it solves that problem. But 248 00:14:20.519 --> 00:14:24.320 my point is the SEC, regardless of who is leading it, 249 00:14:24.360 --> 00:14:26.320 is still going to need to be comfortable with whatever 250 00:14:26.360 --> 00:14:29.559 the surveillance sharing agreements are that they have in place 251 00:14:29.639 --> 00:14:32.320 with the underlying crypto exchanges. So again it gets a 252 00:14:32.360 --> 00:14:33.840 little bit into the weeds, but I think that's an 253 00:14:33.840 --> 00:14:34.519 important point. 254 00:14:35.200 --> 00:14:37.120 Yeah, those are great points. And I had a quick 255 00:14:37.159 --> 00:14:39.559 follo up question on the futures because you stated that 256 00:14:40.360 --> 00:14:43.600 potentially it might need to that needs to be in 257 00:14:43.639 --> 00:14:47.200 place for years. Do you think that's that's a Is 258 00:14:47.200 --> 00:14:50.120 that a rule or is that kind of like, yeah, it's. 259 00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:52.799 Not a requirement. I'm simply just going off how the 260 00:14:52.840 --> 00:14:58.039 SEC has approached spot bitcoin and spot ether ETF approval 261 00:14:58.080 --> 00:15:01.240 where they've wanted to see this truck record. They wanted 262 00:15:01.240 --> 00:15:05.879 to see this correlation analysis right that the futures in 263 00:15:05.960 --> 00:15:09.320 the spot market are very tightly correlated, which to me 264 00:15:10.679 --> 00:15:13.960 that's intuitive. I mean, the markets are highly intertwined, but 265 00:15:14.240 --> 00:15:17.159 I get it. A regulatory agency such as the SEC, 266 00:15:17.279 --> 00:15:18.799 they want to see the hard data. They want to 267 00:15:18.799 --> 00:15:21.960 see the numbers. So yeah, I think it's a matter 268 00:15:22.000 --> 00:15:25.279 of time. It takes a little while to show the mathematical, 269 00:15:25.399 --> 00:15:28.120 you know, the underlying correlations there. That's not something that 270 00:15:28.159 --> 00:15:31.200 happens overnight. So they want to see that track record. 271 00:15:31.480 --> 00:15:33.320 And then again the path that we have walked at 272 00:15:33.399 --> 00:15:37.240 least with spot ether in Spot Bitcoin ETFs is then 273 00:15:37.279 --> 00:15:39.799 we saw the futures based ETFs come to market, right, 274 00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:42.600 and then we saw the spot ETFs come to market. 275 00:15:42.679 --> 00:15:46.679 So I just feel like that is probably a longer 276 00:15:46.759 --> 00:15:49.840 term path. The quicker path would be having this crypto 277 00:15:50.879 --> 00:15:52.960 again regulatory framework implemented. 278 00:15:55.360 --> 00:16:00.320 Rook rookie question for the futures Who would it the 279 00:16:00.440 --> 00:16:03.679 same issuers that do the SPOT that issue the futures 280 00:16:03.759 --> 00:16:06.559 ETF or would it be like the CMEME or something 281 00:16:06.600 --> 00:16:06.960 like that. 282 00:16:07.279 --> 00:16:09.360 No, yeah, it would It would likely be the same 283 00:16:09.440 --> 00:16:15.159 issuers that we saw futures based crypto ETFs. So we 284 00:16:15.200 --> 00:16:20.360 saw everybody from pro shares two bit wise you know 285 00:16:20.919 --> 00:16:23.120 van act. There were a number of issuers who filed 286 00:16:23.159 --> 00:16:28.360 futures based ETFs that then subsequently have filed or and 287 00:16:28.480 --> 00:16:31.200 or launched at this point the Spot ETFs. 288 00:16:32.559 --> 00:16:34.399 There were some interesting news that broke this morning. I 289 00:16:34.440 --> 00:16:36.399 don't know if you saw it, but it's not confirmed, 290 00:16:36.480 --> 00:16:39.960 but there's indications based on a court filing that the 291 00:16:39.960 --> 00:16:44.440 SEC is removing Solana Cardano, Maddic and so forth out 292 00:16:44.440 --> 00:16:46.960 of the finance lawsuit where the judge wouldn't have to 293 00:16:47.039 --> 00:16:50.159 rule if those coins or securities are not. Now they 294 00:16:50.159 --> 00:16:54.000 haven't removed anything from coin based lawsuit Orkraken, But it 295 00:16:54.120 --> 00:16:59.480 seems to your point earlier that potentially Kamala Harrison her administration, 296 00:16:59.600 --> 00:17:02.480 if you want I call it, that, are gonna maybe 297 00:17:02.559 --> 00:17:05.119 do a one eighty. But until we see actual proof, 298 00:17:05.440 --> 00:17:09.559 it's just all speculative. But that seems promising that maybe 299 00:17:09.599 --> 00:17:12.880 they're dropping some of these cases against these projects. 300 00:17:13.240 --> 00:17:17.039 Yeah, I saw that headline, and sure, I think you 301 00:17:17.079 --> 00:17:19.759 can read that as a promising sign. But what I 302 00:17:19.799 --> 00:17:22.200 have learned over the years is that it's really difficult 303 00:17:22.200 --> 00:17:23.920 to read the tea leaves when it comes to the 304 00:17:23.960 --> 00:17:27.759 sec and I take a step back, and let's put 305 00:17:27.799 --> 00:17:31.039 Solana or x orp or any other crypto asset aside 306 00:17:31.319 --> 00:17:33.400 and just think about the products that we currently have 307 00:17:33.480 --> 00:17:36.799 trading with Spot bitcoin and Spot e through ets. Remember, 308 00:17:36.839 --> 00:17:40.480 we still don't have cash creations and redemptions on either 309 00:17:40.519 --> 00:17:45.079 of those products. We don't even have options trading on 310 00:17:45.119 --> 00:17:47.880 Spot bitcoin ETFs, which have now been on the market 311 00:17:47.960 --> 00:17:52.720 for whatever six or seven months. There's some basic things 312 00:17:52.799 --> 00:17:55.480 like that that until I see those, it's hard for 313 00:17:55.519 --> 00:17:57.640 me to believe that the current administration is all of 314 00:17:57.640 --> 00:18:00.160 a sudden going to do a one to eighty it 315 00:18:00.160 --> 00:18:04.200 to your point, and you know, approve something like a 316 00:18:04.240 --> 00:18:07.920 Solana ETF, but you never know. The political wins can 317 00:18:07.920 --> 00:18:12.079 shift quickly, and you know, I could see how again 318 00:18:12.119 --> 00:18:14.960 that headline could be interpreted as a positive sign. I've 319 00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:16.720 just learned over the years not to read too much 320 00:18:16.720 --> 00:18:18.160 into those sorts of things. 321 00:18:18.680 --> 00:18:23.279 Yeah, I same, And until we see concrete evidence and 322 00:18:23.400 --> 00:18:27.200 they actually do what they're hinting at, it's it's all 323 00:18:27.359 --> 00:18:28.960 just fugazi, right, it's help. 324 00:18:29.440 --> 00:18:32.200 I will say this though, if you want a wildcard, 325 00:18:32.240 --> 00:18:35.200 I don't think it's going to happen. If if we 326 00:18:35.279 --> 00:18:39.079 saw a black Rock file for a Solana ETF, and 327 00:18:39.119 --> 00:18:41.359 I would say, maybe something's going on here. But they've 328 00:18:41.359 --> 00:18:43.279 been on record here for the past week or so. 329 00:18:43.319 --> 00:18:46.519 I've seen comments on a multiple of their executives where 330 00:18:46.880 --> 00:18:50.200 they've essentially said it's it's bitcoin and ether and and 331 00:18:50.559 --> 00:18:53.160 pretty much nothing else at this point. So they don't 332 00:18:53.160 --> 00:18:54.880 seem to have an interest there. But that would be 333 00:18:54.880 --> 00:18:56.880 the wildcard if you see black rock file. I may 334 00:18:56.960 --> 00:18:57.759 change my ten. 335 00:18:59.240 --> 00:19:02.000 On that note. Maybe it makes sense that there's not 336 00:19:02.079 --> 00:19:06.559 a third all COINYTIF because I don't know, maybe it 337 00:19:06.559 --> 00:19:10.319 takes time for the market to get familiar with these 338 00:19:10.359 --> 00:19:12.640 products and to be accepting a crypto entry. You throw 339 00:19:12.680 --> 00:19:15.359 too much at them at the same time, it may 340 00:19:15.359 --> 00:19:17.519 turn them off. But if you just say here's bitcoin, 341 00:19:17.920 --> 00:19:19.839 if you want, you can get some ethereum as well, 342 00:19:19.839 --> 00:19:21.279 it's a much easier. 343 00:19:20.880 --> 00:19:23.759 Pitch, perhaps, But you have to remember that we have 344 00:19:23.880 --> 00:19:26.960 these products trading over in places like Europe. If you 345 00:19:27.000 --> 00:19:29.519 go look at the products from it, even anituer who 346 00:19:29.559 --> 00:19:32.279 now has products in the US twenty one shares, or 347 00:19:32.279 --> 00:19:36.039 you can look at Vanec. There are Salona exchange straded 348 00:19:36.079 --> 00:19:39.000 products over there, there are Cardano, and you can go 349 00:19:39.039 --> 00:19:42.880 down the list. So I hear you. And certainly those 350 00:19:42.920 --> 00:19:45.319 other crypto assets are a much smaller portion of the 351 00:19:45.359 --> 00:19:48.960 overall crypto market. But those products have proven to be 352 00:19:48.960 --> 00:19:54.279 able to function properly in other markets around the world, 353 00:19:54.400 --> 00:19:56.359 so there's no reason that that wouldn't be the case 354 00:19:56.359 --> 00:19:57.440 here in the US. 355 00:19:57.720 --> 00:20:01.319 That's true. And then given how dominant the industry is 356 00:20:01.400 --> 00:20:04.559 right now in politics and trad fy and so forth, 357 00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:07.119 people are paying attention. So yeah, I think it's a 358 00:20:07.119 --> 00:20:07.519 good point. 359 00:20:08.759 --> 00:20:08.920 Now. 360 00:20:09.000 --> 00:20:12.240 I saw recently hash decks they filed for an index ETF, 361 00:20:12.880 --> 00:20:15.279 which would include bitcoin and ether and also opens the 362 00:20:15.319 --> 00:20:18.200 door for other all coin ets. What are your thoughts 363 00:20:18.200 --> 00:20:20.559 on that here are probably going to see black Rock 364 00:20:20.559 --> 00:20:21.799 and these other folks do the same. 365 00:20:22.200 --> 00:20:25.720 Well, first of all, I am absolutely shocked that hash 366 00:20:25.759 --> 00:20:28.359 decks is the only issuer has filed for this so far. 367 00:20:28.759 --> 00:20:30.839 I really can't believe we haven't seen bit wise or 368 00:20:30.880 --> 00:20:34.039 twenty one shares or grey Skills jump in. But longer term, 369 00:20:34.599 --> 00:20:36.920 I think I mentioned this last time we chatted. I 370 00:20:36.960 --> 00:20:40.119 think that this is where it is all heading. So 371 00:20:40.319 --> 00:20:44.079 spot Bitcoin ETF and Spotty three ETFs they were just 372 00:20:44.119 --> 00:20:47.960 the first step down the path towards what will ultimately 373 00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:53.920 be index based crypto ets. We'll see actively managed crypto ETF. 374 00:20:54.720 --> 00:20:57.519 And what's interesting is that if you go and read 375 00:20:57.640 --> 00:21:01.640 that hash decks filing, it's clear they plan on adding 376 00:21:01.680 --> 00:21:06.599 additional crypto assets as they're approved. So it's not just 377 00:21:06.680 --> 00:21:08.920 I mean, right now it would just be a spot 378 00:21:08.920 --> 00:21:12.119 bitcoin and spoty through a combined spot dickcoin and Spotty 379 00:21:12.160 --> 00:21:14.720 three ETF, but the way the language is written as 380 00:21:14.720 --> 00:21:16.960 such that as other crypto assets are approved, they could 381 00:21:16.960 --> 00:21:22.319 add those as well. And from the standpoint again, I'm 382 00:21:22.319 --> 00:21:27.880 an advisor. I'll just tell you that advisors love stuff 383 00:21:27.960 --> 00:21:32.039 like this because they love diversification, especially in an emerging 384 00:21:32.640 --> 00:21:35.279 area of the market like crypto. And so if you 385 00:21:35.279 --> 00:21:38.920 can have a basket of crypto assets, whether it's index 386 00:21:38.960 --> 00:21:41.720 based or actively managed, I do think that will be 387 00:21:41.759 --> 00:21:45.759 extremely attractive, particularly to the financial advisor Crome. 388 00:21:47.240 --> 00:21:50.279 Yeah, that absolutely makes sense. And it's as you're saying, 389 00:21:50.279 --> 00:21:52.359 as a financial advisor, this is what you guys do, 390 00:21:52.519 --> 00:21:55.640 and you advise you you know, tell your customers to 391 00:21:56.039 --> 00:21:58.079 put into this fund and that fund and so on 392 00:21:58.119 --> 00:21:58.920 and so forth right. 393 00:21:59.039 --> 00:22:01.319 Yeah, And what's interesting too, is like you and I know, 394 00:22:01.799 --> 00:22:04.200 and you probably more than I, but I know enough 395 00:22:04.240 --> 00:22:08.279 around crypto to be dangerous. For sure. Clearly there are 396 00:22:08.319 --> 00:22:12.839 tremendous differences between Bitcoin and let's say Ether, Like there's 397 00:22:12.839 --> 00:22:15.839 no question about that. You and I both know that. Yeah, 398 00:22:15.400 --> 00:22:19.720 But for somebody who maybe is not as familiar with 399 00:22:19.799 --> 00:22:23.160 the crypto space, what they want is just exposure to 400 00:22:23.240 --> 00:22:26.880 the category overall and they'll learn. I'm not saying that 401 00:22:26.960 --> 00:22:30.119