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True Murder with your host, 30 00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:36.519 journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 31 00:01:46.079 --> 00:01:48.599 Good evening, This is your host Dan Zupanski for the 32 00:01:48.599 --> 00:01:51.480 program True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True crime 33 00:01:51.560 --> 00:01:54.680 History and the authors that have written about them. He 34 00:01:54.799 --> 00:01:57.239 was a perfect man, living a perfect life, which made 35 00:01:57.319 --> 00:02:01.239 him a perfect killer. Canadian Air Force Colonel Russell Williams 36 00:02:01.239 --> 00:02:05.519 commended commanded the largest Canadian Forces base in the country. 37 00:02:05.959 --> 00:02:09.680 He had personally piloted prime ministers, dignitaries and members of 38 00:02:09.680 --> 00:02:12.479 the British royal family. As one of the most respected 39 00:02:12.520 --> 00:02:15.639 and trusted soldiers in the military, he was also a 40 00:02:15.719 --> 00:02:19.000 rapist and a murderer. This is a disturbing true account 41 00:02:19.039 --> 00:02:22.599 of how one of Canada's highest ranking military officers became 42 00:02:22.639 --> 00:02:26.879 one of Canada's most notorious criminals, including his ultimate capture, 43 00:02:27.120 --> 00:02:30.759 trial and conviction for a twisted spree of sexual deviancy 44 00:02:31.240 --> 00:02:35.360 and two brutal rapes and murders. Camushflage Killer. The Shocking 45 00:02:35.439 --> 00:02:39.000 Double Life of Canadian Air Force Colonel Russell Williams is 46 00:02:39.560 --> 00:02:41.960 the book that we're going to be profiling this evening 47 00:02:42.280 --> 00:02:45.560 with my special guest journalist and author David A. 48 00:02:45.759 --> 00:02:46.080 Gibb. 49 00:02:46.840 --> 00:02:48.919 Welcome to the program and thank you to agreeing to 50 00:02:48.960 --> 00:02:52.759 this interview. David A. Gibb. Oh, thank you, Dan, thank 51 00:02:52.800 --> 00:02:55.000 you very much. Sorry I didn't get a hold of 52 00:02:55.000 --> 00:02:59.439 you just before, so I apologize for that. But I 53 00:02:59.479 --> 00:03:01.719 want to tell you first off, this is one of 54 00:03:01.759 --> 00:03:06.639 the more incredible crimes that has occurred, probably in Canada, 55 00:03:06.719 --> 00:03:10.319 but very much so, one of the most unusual and 56 00:03:10.360 --> 00:03:14.280 shocking murders ever in the history of true crime, and 57 00:03:14.800 --> 00:03:19.159 a wonderful book, by the way, Thank you. Let's start 58 00:03:19.199 --> 00:03:23.120 off a little differently than your book and let's get 59 00:03:23.159 --> 00:03:28.680 to the character of Russell Williams. Take us back to 60 00:03:29.159 --> 00:03:33.479 the early life of Russell Williams where he grew up 61 00:03:33.639 --> 00:03:37.400 in Canada, and tell us about his early family life 62 00:03:37.680 --> 00:03:40.479 right from the very beginning. Based on your research. 63 00:03:40.919 --> 00:03:44.879 All right. Well, he came to Canada from from England 64 00:03:44.919 --> 00:03:49.159 with his with his parents and he was he was 65 00:03:49.199 --> 00:03:51.039 only a few months old at that point, and they 66 00:03:51.080 --> 00:03:55.639 moved to a place called the Deep River just outside 67 00:03:55.639 --> 00:04:00.280 of Ottawa. And it's a small, very I just it 68 00:04:00.319 --> 00:04:04.960 is an antiseptic kind of town. It's much like you'd 69 00:04:05.000 --> 00:04:08.599 expect to see on The Stepford Wives or The Truman Show. 70 00:04:09.159 --> 00:04:12.080 It was it was created to be a perfect little 71 00:04:12.080 --> 00:04:16.759 community for the PhDs that were working at the nearby 72 00:04:16.959 --> 00:04:21.040 nuclear power facility back in the nineteen sixties and the earlier. 73 00:04:22.279 --> 00:04:31.399 So so it's a very very sanitized community that it 74 00:04:31.519 --> 00:04:33.560 just it gives off a very odd aura. And I've 75 00:04:33.600 --> 00:04:35.480 known a few people who have actually lived there for 76 00:04:35.560 --> 00:04:37.879 some period of time when they could not wait to, 77 00:04:38.560 --> 00:04:41.240 as they say in their own words, escape the town. 78 00:04:42.319 --> 00:04:46.120 But he stayed there until he was only six years old, 79 00:04:46.639 --> 00:04:52.000 and then they moved on after his parents became involved 80 00:04:52.759 --> 00:04:59.120 with another couple, the Counterparts. His father became involved with 81 00:04:59.199 --> 00:05:05.600 the his best friend's wife and his mother Williams, his 82 00:05:05.680 --> 00:05:08.839 mother became involved with later became involved with the uh 83 00:05:09.319 --> 00:05:14.839 that woman's husband, her husband's former best friend, and they 84 00:05:14.879 --> 00:05:17.920 did a switch through there and Russell will move with 85 00:05:17.959 --> 00:05:21.000 his with his brother and his mom down to Toronto. 86 00:05:21.079 --> 00:05:23.079 At that point. 87 00:05:23.319 --> 00:05:27.480 Okay, now, what what would you say that's characterized his 88 00:05:27.480 --> 00:05:31.040 his personality growing up? What was from the research that 89 00:05:31.120 --> 00:05:34.800 you've done, what was the every indication of what was 90 00:05:34.839 --> 00:05:37.120 the type of personality of Russell Williams. 91 00:05:37.639 --> 00:05:39.920 Well, but by the time he he left Deeve River, 92 00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:42.639 he was only he was only in grade one, so 93 00:05:42.759 --> 00:05:45.480 not a whole lot to uh to base his character 94 00:05:45.519 --> 00:05:47.240 on at that point. But I did speak with a 95 00:05:47.319 --> 00:05:53.480 number of former babysitters, former teachers, neighbors, and and they 96 00:05:53.560 --> 00:05:56.160 all reported that he was a normal, well adjusted kid 97 00:05:56.319 --> 00:05:59.160 who did well in school, who got along with with 98 00:05:59.199 --> 00:06:02.879 his elders and his uh for his brother, there there 99 00:06:02.879 --> 00:06:08.720 were no signs whatsoever of any of any ominous future. 100 00:06:10.199 --> 00:06:13.759 And uh uh the the the the one thing that 101 00:06:13.759 --> 00:06:17.360 that did stand out was the fact that there were people, 102 00:06:17.399 --> 00:06:20.879 including a former teacher, who said that his his mother 103 00:06:21.160 --> 00:06:26.399 back then was ravishing, gorgeous, well figured brunette. And she 104 00:06:26.560 --> 00:06:30.680 later said, when she saw pictures of Jessica Lloyd Williams's 105 00:06:30.759 --> 00:06:34.160 second murder victim, that she was a dead ringer for 106 00:06:34.199 --> 00:06:36.439 what his mother looked like back in those days. 107 00:06:37.160 --> 00:06:38.279 That's very interesting too. 108 00:06:38.879 --> 00:06:43.360 But after after they moved to UH to Toronto, he 109 00:06:43.519 --> 00:06:47.079 essentially he blended in. He was a wallflower at school, 110 00:06:47.319 --> 00:06:50.639 not unusual, not unlike many of us in high school 111 00:06:50.639 --> 00:06:52.759 where the kind of guy who just kind of sits 112 00:06:52.759 --> 00:06:55.759 on the bench during dances and jokes around with the guys. 113 00:06:55.839 --> 00:07:02.839 But Uh wasn't wasn't really socially gregarious and the outgoing, 114 00:07:03.519 --> 00:07:08.079 but hardly the type that you'd expect to be a 115 00:07:08.199 --> 00:07:11.000 later serial killer. There there were lots of people who 116 00:07:11.040 --> 00:07:13.079 had known him back in high school who said that 117 00:07:13.600 --> 00:07:17.240 he seemed a little strange and a little unusual, but 118 00:07:17.319 --> 00:07:20.079 they no more would have suspected he'd be a serial 119 00:07:20.160 --> 00:07:23.000 killer than they suspected he would later be the commander 120 00:07:23.040 --> 00:07:27.160 of Canada's largest air force base. So there were no 121 00:07:27.720 --> 00:07:33.240 indications during his elementary school years, during his high school years, 122 00:07:33.800 --> 00:07:37.759 and even into his university. Here is there was very 123 00:07:37.800 --> 00:07:41.519 little in the way of anything bizarre about his character. 124 00:07:42.439 --> 00:07:46.480 How did he do academically in the elementary school, high 125 00:07:46.519 --> 00:07:50.279 school and will wait off for university, But how did 126 00:07:50.319 --> 00:07:53.079 he do in general in school? You say, wasn't so 127 00:07:53.199 --> 00:07:56.839 gregarious or socially adept will say but a lot of 128 00:07:56.879 --> 00:08:00.800 us aren't. I would say, well, how was he academically? 129 00:08:01.600 --> 00:08:06.759 Academically he was a good achiever, and the former teachers 130 00:08:06.800 --> 00:08:09.800 that I've spoken to said that he was. He was 131 00:08:10.560 --> 00:08:15.560 very smart, very bright, and very artistic, and he communicated 132 00:08:15.600 --> 00:08:19.519 well with his peers and with his teachers. And I 133 00:08:20.160 --> 00:08:23.759 also access some reports that had been filed by Children's 134 00:08:23.800 --> 00:08:28.279 Aid Society investigator who as part of standard procedure, would 135 00:08:28.279 --> 00:08:30.439 come in and observe the family back in those days 136 00:08:30.439 --> 00:08:34.480 whenever there was a divorce occurring, and their report on 137 00:08:35.679 --> 00:08:39.279 Russell was that he was a very well adjusted, very 138 00:08:39.320 --> 00:08:44.320 bright six year old boy, and who showed a lot 139 00:08:44.360 --> 00:08:47.320 of love for his brother and his parents, and was 140 00:08:47.360 --> 00:08:51.879 a very loving, well adjusted kid. So again, even even 141 00:08:51.919 --> 00:08:55.320 for the trained eye, they could not see any pattern 142 00:08:55.360 --> 00:08:56.759 of disturbing behavior. 143 00:08:58.000 --> 00:09:04.039 What was his social life like in terms of dating. 144 00:09:06.039 --> 00:09:11.480 That there was not a whole lot of dating during 145 00:09:11.519 --> 00:09:14.480 his high school years. He had one one woman, or 146 00:09:14.519 --> 00:09:19.639 one one young young woman who was his soul made 147 00:09:19.679 --> 00:09:21.559 during high school so to speak. They lived on the 148 00:09:21.600 --> 00:09:23.759 same street, he actually lived across the street from her. 149 00:09:24.360 --> 00:09:31.600 They were in the band together, but he didn't date 150 00:09:31.759 --> 00:09:35.080 outside of that relationship, and he was never seen to 151 00:09:35.120 --> 00:09:40.960 be socially or publicly affectionate with her. They'd walk hand 152 00:09:41.000 --> 00:09:44.000 in hand, but any other contact would be reserved for 153 00:09:44.279 --> 00:09:46.720 behind closed doors, and they never were seen kissing in 154 00:09:46.720 --> 00:09:50.360 the hallways or anything like that. Now, unfortunately, she's she's 155 00:09:50.399 --> 00:09:53.120 not willing to talk to anybody. I do know who 156 00:09:53.120 --> 00:09:55.879 she is, but she's stated she didn't want to go 157 00:09:55.960 --> 00:09:59.840 on record publicly as to what happened in their relationship. 158 00:10:00.879 --> 00:10:03.720 But that was the only girl he saw during high school. 159 00:10:04.039 --> 00:10:09.960 During he did have another another flame just as he 160 00:10:10.039 --> 00:10:12.799 was entering a university. He apparently was the one who 161 00:10:12.799 --> 00:10:17.120 broke that off. Then he met a foreign exchange student 162 00:10:17.120 --> 00:10:20.200 from Japan, and that was the one that ended up 163 00:10:20.240 --> 00:10:24.120 breaking his heart. Apparently she she returned to Japan after 164 00:10:24.159 --> 00:10:28.240 her studies and left him broken hearted. And apparently he 165 00:10:28.279 --> 00:10:31.639 did not date again after that until he met his 166 00:10:31.639 --> 00:10:34.600 his wife, I mean several several years later, a dozen 167 00:10:34.679 --> 00:10:38.480 years later. So he was quite a stretch there with 168 00:10:38.480 --> 00:10:41.120 no with no female interaction apparently. 169 00:10:42.200 --> 00:10:47.320 Right now, what was his inclination or what was his 170 00:10:47.879 --> 00:10:54.360 academic what was his dreams of being and how did 171 00:10:54.360 --> 00:10:57.000 he put those plans together for university? What were what 172 00:10:57.039 --> 00:11:00.279 were his plans for university and as a result, what 173 00:11:00.320 --> 00:11:05.360 did he believe he was going to study in university 174 00:11:05.480 --> 00:11:07.240 in that pursuit, Well. 175 00:11:07.080 --> 00:11:10.960 He took economics courses in at the University of Toronto 176 00:11:11.000 --> 00:11:14.480 at the Scarborough campus. He went there for four years 177 00:11:14.480 --> 00:11:20.639 studied economics. But oddly he seemed drawn two jobs where 178 00:11:20.679 --> 00:11:24.519 he would get to wear a uniform. And we can 179 00:11:24.559 --> 00:11:27.559 reflect back on that a little bit later, perhaps, but 180 00:11:29.399 --> 00:11:34.679 many people who are in his mindset, who are sexual 181 00:11:34.799 --> 00:11:40.320 satus are drawn two careers that have a certain degree 182 00:11:40.320 --> 00:11:44.919 of power and prestige. And he seemed to be during 183 00:11:44.960 --> 00:11:49.039 his university years kind of getting to know himself and 184 00:11:49.840 --> 00:11:53.720 moving away from the economics and the bookish type jobs 185 00:11:53.759 --> 00:11:56.840 to one that he would be in a position of 186 00:11:56.879 --> 00:12:00.600 power in. And he did apply to the RCMP as well, 187 00:12:00.720 --> 00:12:04.759 and he was actually accepted as an ARCYMP officer after 188 00:12:04.879 --> 00:12:07.480 a barrage of the tests, but he put that on 189 00:12:07.559 --> 00:12:10.240 hold to wait and hear back from the military first, 190 00:12:10.279 --> 00:12:15.559 because that was his prime objective at that point. Apparently 191 00:12:15.559 --> 00:12:20.039 he had been he had been inspired by Tom Cruise 192 00:12:20.080 --> 00:12:23.720 and Top Gun and that was that was now his 193 00:12:24.399 --> 00:12:25.279 plan for the future. 194 00:12:26.080 --> 00:12:28.600 So that was what you put in the book is 195 00:12:28.639 --> 00:12:31.799 that it even surprised his friends who had seen him 196 00:12:31.799 --> 00:12:34.840 go through and get a degree in economics. But at 197 00:12:34.840 --> 00:12:37.200 the same time, he seemed to watch the Top Gun 198 00:12:37.240 --> 00:12:40.480 movie and then around that time make his decision that 199 00:12:40.519 --> 00:12:45.000 he'd wanted to be a pilot and then apply to 200 00:12:45.039 --> 00:12:45.679 the military. 201 00:12:46.480 --> 00:12:49.480 Yep. Yeah, he apparently saw the movie Top Gun several 202 00:12:49.519 --> 00:12:52.919 dozen times, and that's when he made the announcement to 203 00:12:53.080 --> 00:12:56.200 his closest friends that he had decided to pursue a 204 00:12:56.240 --> 00:12:59.679 military career and was going to go for his pilot's 205 00:12:59.720 --> 00:13:03.200 license and and go from there. And they were all stunned. 206 00:13:03.200 --> 00:13:06.360 They thought he was joking at first, but he was 207 00:13:06.399 --> 00:13:11.480 dead serious. And eventually they they realized that he's he's 208 00:13:11.559 --> 00:13:15.039 leaving the four year economics diploma behind and he's gonna 209 00:13:15.360 --> 00:13:17.080 he's going to pursue this military thing. 210 00:13:18.559 --> 00:13:21.679 Now. He he applied to the military and he was accepted. 211 00:13:22.320 --> 00:13:26.000 How did he fare in the military right from the 212 00:13:26.080 --> 00:13:27.159 very beginning. 213 00:13:27.840 --> 00:13:31.159 Yeah, he was. He was a born natural, according to 214 00:13:32.080 --> 00:13:33.519 the people who knew him at the time in the 215 00:13:33.519 --> 00:13:37.000 military there, and that's why he ascended the the ladder 216 00:13:37.039 --> 00:13:40.399 so quickly. Uh, he really he wasted no time in 217 00:13:40.879 --> 00:13:45.360 jumping from from rank to rack and from from day 218 00:13:45.399 --> 00:13:47.960 one at boot camp out in British Columbia. He uh, 219 00:13:48.440 --> 00:13:51.799 he excelled, and he did wonderfully, and he was just 220 00:13:52.120 --> 00:13:54.960 he was just compelled to to achieve and climb that 221 00:13:55.080 --> 00:13:59.039 ladder as quick as he he's humanly produced. So and 222 00:13:59.159 --> 00:14:03.240 uh and the people I had spoke to who had 223 00:14:03.399 --> 00:14:05.519 worked with him in the military just said he was 224 00:14:05.720 --> 00:14:08.720 he was the ideal officer. He was the ideal candidate 225 00:14:09.240 --> 00:14:11.320 and from the get go people knew that he was 226 00:14:11.360 --> 00:14:13.519 going to be an achiever. 227 00:14:14.919 --> 00:14:19.279 Now, as characteristic of the military, lots of times you 228 00:14:19.559 --> 00:14:24.240 are stationed at different military bases. And so you talked 229 00:14:24.279 --> 00:14:28.200 about initially in British Columbia for our American audience, our 230 00:14:28.240 --> 00:14:32.720 West Coast province, British Columbia. He had also been in Winnipeg. 231 00:14:32.799 --> 00:14:37.679 In fact, that's where he married eventually, Mary Elizabeth Harriman 232 00:14:38.399 --> 00:14:44.919 tell us just where he was stationed, it's sort of 233 00:14:45.200 --> 00:14:48.879 the same time that he met Mary Elizabeth tell us 234 00:14:48.960 --> 00:14:53.240 that that time, that time frame, when did he meet 235 00:14:53.320 --> 00:14:56.759 Mary Elizabeth Harriman, And where was he in terms of 236 00:14:57.000 --> 00:14:59.639 his stature in the military, and where was he based 237 00:14:59.679 --> 00:15:00.320 at that time? 238 00:15:01.399 --> 00:15:03.480 Well, at at that point in time, he was actually 239 00:15:03.559 --> 00:15:07.960 a flight instructor out out at the base in Manitoba 240 00:15:08.000 --> 00:15:11.639 there and uh he was he was a major at 241 00:15:11.639 --> 00:15:14.919 the time, and he was actually doing as well as 242 00:15:15.039 --> 00:15:20.840 teaching uh flight instruction to new newer recruits, he was 243 00:15:21.240 --> 00:15:25.679 in an acrobatic an aerial acrobatic team as well, and 244 00:15:26.200 --> 00:15:30.039 uh he was highly regarded out there at the at 245 00:15:30.039 --> 00:15:35.200 the airport, and his immediate supervisor said that he knew 246 00:15:35.759 --> 00:15:39.039 that that this this man was going to go for 247 00:15:39.080 --> 00:15:43.000 the top. But they had already joked about him being 248 00:15:43.279 --> 00:15:48.120 uh the c A s one day and uh they 249 00:15:48.399 --> 00:15:51.159 they knew, they knew he was. He was going to 250 00:15:51.159 --> 00:15:54.440 be targeted for for a very senior position at one 251 00:15:54.440 --> 00:15:57.480 point in time, and that at that time he was 252 00:15:57.519 --> 00:15:59.720 he had the weekends off, so he would drive out 253 00:16:00.240 --> 00:16:05.399 to Alberta, another western province, and that's where he met 254 00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:08.919 Mary Elizabeth and he would if she was still in 255 00:16:09.000 --> 00:16:11.600 Calgary at the time, he would drive out every weekend 256 00:16:11.679 --> 00:16:14.679 in his little hatchback and spend the weekend with her 257 00:16:15.120 --> 00:16:19.039 and then drive back drive back to the base before 258 00:16:19.159 --> 00:16:22.879 Monday again, which is a huge, huge drive. To anybody 259 00:16:22.919 --> 00:16:25.840 who looks at the map, that is one huge drive 260 00:16:25.919 --> 00:16:29.759 to do return every weekend. So he was apparently head 261 00:16:29.759 --> 00:16:34.559 over heels in love with Mary Elizabeth and they were 262 00:16:34.600 --> 00:16:37.320 engaged in the very short order, and like I said, 263 00:16:37.320 --> 00:16:41.000 they got married in a small art gallery in Winnipeg. 264 00:16:42.120 --> 00:16:46.039 Yeah, the Winnipeg art gallery really interesting too. I am 265 00:16:46.080 --> 00:16:51.240 in Winnipeg. So now tell us about this eventual. Eventually, 266 00:16:51.759 --> 00:16:54.879 there is a couple communities that are involved in this story, 267 00:16:54.960 --> 00:16:57.840 and one being Tweed. So you can tell us where 268 00:16:58.320 --> 00:17:01.559 geographically Tweed is, and then you can tell us what 269 00:17:01.679 --> 00:17:05.200 kind of community this Cozy Cove is, so it has 270 00:17:05.279 --> 00:17:09.519 an interesting name, Cozy Cove, and also that there was 271 00:17:09.559 --> 00:17:14.799 still some ties to a suburb in Ottawa called Orleans. 272 00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:18.680 So tell us about how that worked and at what 273 00:17:18.920 --> 00:17:24.880 time was Williams and that he was in Tweed, And 274 00:17:25.039 --> 00:17:27.799 tell us where Tweet is in terms of geography. 275 00:17:28.680 --> 00:17:32.599 All right, Well, that Tweet is just immediately north of Belleville, Ontario, 276 00:17:32.640 --> 00:17:36.000 where I live actually, and that's on the northern shore 277 00:17:36.039 --> 00:17:40.319 of Lake Ontario, a stone threw across the lake from Rochester, 278 00:17:40.599 --> 00:17:45.640 New York. Tweet is about a half hour forty minute 279 00:17:45.680 --> 00:17:51.160 drive from Belleville, just directly north, and Cozy Cove is 280 00:17:52.559 --> 00:17:55.480 a little offshoot of the village of Tweet. Now Tweet 281 00:17:55.519 --> 00:17:58.400 has about fifteen hundred people. It's a very small town 282 00:17:58.759 --> 00:18:03.839 village actually, and Cozy Cove is just a on the 283 00:18:03.839 --> 00:18:08.319 outskirts of town on a lake actually on a little 284 00:18:09.480 --> 00:18:15.279 heart shaped bay on the small lake in town. And 285 00:18:15.599 --> 00:18:20.079 it's a very very tight knit community. It's since become 286 00:18:20.200 --> 00:18:24.279 very very volatile because there's a lot of mixed emotions 287 00:18:24.279 --> 00:18:26.680 there right now and a lot of politics being played out. 288 00:18:26.759 --> 00:18:33.680 But there's twenty twenty two houses on Cozy Cove Lane proper. 289 00:18:33.720 --> 00:18:36.519 Now the community does extend a little bit further. There's 290 00:18:36.759 --> 00:18:38.759 dirt path that you can go through and cut into 291 00:18:38.839 --> 00:18:43.759 other little college of sacks. But Cozy Cove Lane itself 292 00:18:44.119 --> 00:18:47.920 is very small, twenty two homes. And these people used 293 00:18:47.960 --> 00:18:52.319 to be a very retirement age community. But these days 294 00:18:52.359 --> 00:18:55.920 you have it's very eclectic. You have blue collar workers, 295 00:18:55.960 --> 00:18:58.480 you have white collar workers, you have people who come 296 00:18:58.559 --> 00:19:01.759 up from the city on the weak and a very 297 00:19:01.759 --> 00:19:05.799 eclectic mix of people. And Williams and his and his 298 00:19:05.839 --> 00:19:10.559 wife blended into that environment because they they had a 299 00:19:10.559 --> 00:19:13.000 big home in Ottawa and they were looking for a 300 00:19:13.039 --> 00:19:16.759 cottage where Russ Russell could stay during the week when 301 00:19:16.759 --> 00:19:19.559 he was working at the base, so he would he 302 00:19:19.599 --> 00:19:22.119 would often stay there through the week and then either 303 00:19:22.200 --> 00:19:24.559 drive back to Ottawa, his home in Ottawa to be 304 00:19:24.599 --> 00:19:26.559 shared with his wife, and she was she was working 305 00:19:26.599 --> 00:19:28.960 in Ottawa, so she would stay at that house and 306 00:19:29.000 --> 00:19:30.680 he either he would go back and visit her on 307 00:19:30.720 --> 00:19:32.640 the weekend or she would drive down to the cottage 308 00:19:32.680 --> 00:19:37.799 and visit him on the weekend. But uh, he was, 309 00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:42.000 he was. He was there in Cozy Cove himself throughout 310 00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:44.359 the week, the weekdays as he was working at the base. 311 00:19:45.319 --> 00:19:47.200 So I'm not sorry, I go ahead. 312 00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:51.359 Oh no, what I wanted to say too, is that okay, 313 00:19:51.400 --> 00:19:55.000 So the the neighbors that were in Cozy Cove, how 314 00:19:55.039 --> 00:19:59.079 did they characterize the couple themselves? And not that they 315 00:19:59.119 --> 00:20:03.440 found anything odd, but they did have an impression of them. Again, 316 00:20:03.519 --> 00:20:07.440 this seemed to be that he didn't have They didn't 317 00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:10.000 show the kind of affection that some people might show. 318 00:20:10.279 --> 00:20:13.200 But you tell us about what the impression of the 319 00:20:13.240 --> 00:20:15.119 neighbors were about this couple. 320 00:20:16.400 --> 00:20:20.880 Well, they told me that they looked upon them as more. 321 00:20:21.160 --> 00:20:23.440 They said, if they didn't know better, they wouldn't have 322 00:20:23.440 --> 00:20:27.559 thought they were married or even a couple, although they 323 00:20:27.559 --> 00:20:30.000 did walk around the neighborhood at times hand in hand, 324 00:20:30.279 --> 00:20:33.039 just kind of strolling around looking at flowers and birds 325 00:20:33.079 --> 00:20:38.319 and the water, but he said more often than not 326 00:20:38.480 --> 00:20:43.000 they would they'd be very formal around one another, both 327 00:20:43.000 --> 00:20:47.640 in dress and in conduct, and he very formally referred 328 00:20:47.680 --> 00:20:51.240 to her as Mary Elizabeth. There was no pet names 329 00:20:51.480 --> 00:20:54.880 for either one of them, and he would actually tell 330 00:20:54.920 --> 00:20:58.279 the neighbors she would like to be addressed by Mary Elizabeth. 331 00:20:58.480 --> 00:21:01.880 I don't call her Mary or Liz, maryl is police caller, 332 00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:05.640 Mary Elizabeth. And he would use the same the same 333 00:21:06.119 --> 00:21:08.759 name when he when he when he'd come out, he'd 334 00:21:08.759 --> 00:21:10.960 be cut in the lawn and he'd he'd be lounging 335 00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:14.880 with a book underneath the the umbrella, and he'd say, 336 00:21:14.920 --> 00:21:17.440 Mary Elizabeth, would you would you like a drink? Would 337 00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:19.519 you care for a drink? And the neighbors just thought 338 00:21:19.519 --> 00:21:23.480 that that was very unusual that that they were so 339 00:21:23.640 --> 00:21:26.680 formal around one another, And there was never any any 340 00:21:26.680 --> 00:21:28.839 public aside from the handholding when they went on walks, 341 00:21:28.880 --> 00:21:32.279 There was never any public displays of affection that would 342 00:21:32.440 --> 00:21:35.079 make one think that they were in love with one another. 343 00:21:35.759 --> 00:21:38.680 They were often described to me by by neighbors as 344 00:21:38.680 --> 00:21:41.680 appearing as though they were business partners or brother and sister. 345 00:21:43.000 --> 00:21:47.039 So they they found it very unusual the way they 346 00:21:47.079 --> 00:21:48.240 interacted with one another. 347 00:21:49.640 --> 00:21:53.079 Now, they didn't have a lot of opportunity to to 348 00:21:53.440 --> 00:21:56.440 uh consort with too many of the neighbors. But one 349 00:21:56.480 --> 00:21:59.799 of the neighbors live next door, and they called him 350 00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:02.839 sort of affectionately, as the people in the community called 351 00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:05.400 him the mayor of Cozy Cove. And his name was 352 00:22:05.480 --> 00:22:08.920 Larry Jones, and so he was next door. Tell us 353 00:22:08.960 --> 00:22:14.279 about Larry Jones had some insight into Colonel Williams. Russell Williams, 354 00:22:15.519 --> 00:22:18.720 tell us what you had found Larry Williams, our pardoner. 355 00:22:18.799 --> 00:22:23.759 Larry Jones had said about Russell Williams and his behavior. 356 00:22:24.680 --> 00:22:29.599 Well, Larry Larry Jones is to put it, I don't 357 00:22:29.680 --> 00:22:32.319 mean to talk down either, but he's a country bumpkin 358 00:22:32.440 --> 00:22:35.000 and he's proud of that. He was born and raised 359 00:22:35.039 --> 00:22:37.359 in the country, and he's very much a country boy. 360 00:22:38.200 --> 00:22:40.880 He found Russell Williams to be a bit of a 361 00:22:40.880 --> 00:22:46.519 comedy act, being a city slicker and not being very 362 00:22:46.599 --> 00:22:50.160 used to the country living and being able to be 363 00:22:50.480 --> 00:22:55.599 self sufficient with tools and the riding lawnmower and boats 364 00:22:55.599 --> 00:22:59.960 in the lake, and he would he told me off 365 00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:03.839 and laughed at how how inept Russell Williams was for 366 00:23:04.279 --> 00:23:07.359 somebody who was so far up in the military. How 367 00:23:07.359 --> 00:23:09.960 he how he couldn't tie his his boat properly and 368 00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:12.000 would let it drift out into the middle of the lake, 369 00:23:12.119 --> 00:23:14.799 and how he had no idea how to change blades 370 00:23:14.799 --> 00:23:18.279 on his riding lawn mower, so he he would often 371 00:23:18.440 --> 00:23:21.039 he would often help his next door in a neighbor 372 00:23:21.279 --> 00:23:24.839 with with menial chores like that. And there was one 373 00:23:24.880 --> 00:23:28.039 time that Russell Williams was scheduled to drop the puck 374 00:23:28.079 --> 00:23:32.200 at a charity hockey tournament in Belleville here as well 375 00:23:32.599 --> 00:23:36.480 as as the as the base commander, and he went 376 00:23:36.480 --> 00:23:39.279 to Larry Jones and asked, how do I drop a puck? 377 00:23:39.920 --> 00:23:42.880 What is there to it? So Larry Jones took him 378 00:23:42.920 --> 00:23:45.000 with with a puck and some hockey sticks out to 379 00:23:45.039 --> 00:23:47.920 the garage and showed him how to drop a puck. 380 00:23:48.519 --> 00:23:51.920 So he he just found uh, he just found Williams 381 00:23:51.960 --> 00:23:55.480 to be a bit of an anomaly that way, and 382 00:23:55.599 --> 00:23:58.640 uh to be quite reclusive. Well, when he didn't need 383 00:23:58.680 --> 00:24:01.640 your help, he he wouldn't even know he was home 384 00:24:02.400 --> 00:24:04.400 the house. The house would be kept dark. He would 385 00:24:04.400 --> 00:24:07.400 always keep his vehicle parked in the garage, The blinds 386 00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:10.599 would be closed, the doors would all be shut. 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