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Speaker 2: You are now listening to True Murder, The most Shocking
Speaker 2: Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have
Speaker 2: written about him Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every
Speaker 2: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 2: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 2: journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Speaker 5: Good evening, This is your host Dan Zupanski for the
Speaker 5: program True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True crime
Speaker 5: History and the authors that have written about them. He
Speaker 5: was a perfect man, living a perfect life, which made
Speaker 5: him a perfect killer. Canadian Air Force Colonel Russell Williams
Speaker 5: commended commanded the largest Canadian Forces base in the country.
Speaker 5: He had personally piloted prime ministers, dignitaries and members of
Speaker 5: the British royal family. As one of the most respected
Speaker 5: and trusted soldiers in the military, he was also a
Speaker 5: rapist and a murderer. This is a disturbing true account
Speaker 5: of how one of Canada's highest ranking military officers became
Speaker 5: one of Canada's most notorious criminals, including his ultimate capture,
Speaker 5: trial and conviction for a twisted spree of sexual deviancy
Speaker 5: and two brutal rapes and murders. Camushflage Killer. The Shocking
Speaker 5: Double Life of Canadian Air Force Colonel Russell Williams is
Speaker 5: the book that we're going to be profiling this evening
Speaker 5: with my special guest journalist and author David A.
Speaker 2: Gibb.
Speaker 5: Welcome to the program and thank you to agreeing to
Speaker 5: this interview. David A. Gibb. Oh, thank you, Dan, thank
Speaker 5: you very much. Sorry I didn't get a hold of
Speaker 5: you just before, so I apologize for that. But I
Speaker 5: want to tell you first off, this is one of
Speaker 5: the more incredible crimes that has occurred, probably in Canada,
Speaker 5: but very much so, one of the most unusual and
Speaker 5: shocking murders ever in the history of true crime, and
Speaker 5: a wonderful book, by the way, Thank you. Let's start
Speaker 5: off a little differently than your book and let's get
Speaker 5: to the character of Russell Williams. Take us back to
Speaker 5: the early life of Russell Williams where he grew up
Speaker 5: in Canada, and tell us about his early family life
Speaker 5: right from the very beginning. Based on your research.
Speaker 3: All right. Well, he came to Canada from from England
Speaker 3: with his with his parents and he was he was
Speaker 3: only a few months old at that point, and they
Speaker 3: moved to a place called the Deep River just outside
Speaker 3: of Ottawa. And it's a small, very I just it
Speaker 3: is an antiseptic kind of town. It's much like you'd
Speaker 3: expect to see on The Stepford Wives or The Truman Show.
Speaker 3: It was it was created to be a perfect little
Speaker 3: community for the PhDs that were working at the nearby
Speaker 3: nuclear power facility back in the nineteen sixties and the earlier.
Speaker 3: So so it's a very very sanitized community that it
Speaker 3: just it gives off a very odd aura. And I've
Speaker 3: known a few people who have actually lived there for
Speaker 3: some period of time when they could not wait to,
Speaker 3: as they say in their own words, escape the town.
Speaker 3: But he stayed there until he was only six years old,
Speaker 3: and then they moved on after his parents became involved
Speaker 3: with another couple, the Counterparts. His father became involved with
Speaker 3: the his best friend's wife and his mother Williams, his
Speaker 3: mother became involved with later became involved with the uh
Speaker 3: that woman's husband, her husband's former best friend, and they
Speaker 3: did a switch through there and Russell will move with
Speaker 3: his with his brother and his mom down to Toronto.
Speaker 3: At that point.
Speaker 5: Okay, now, what what would you say that's characterized his
Speaker 5: his personality growing up? What was from the research that
Speaker 5: you've done, what was the every indication of what was
Speaker 5: the type of personality of Russell Williams.
Speaker 3: Well, but by the time he he left Deeve River,
Speaker 3: he was only he was only in grade one, so
Speaker 3: not a whole lot to uh to base his character
Speaker 3: on at that point. But I did speak with a
Speaker 3: number of former babysitters, former teachers, neighbors, and and they
Speaker 3: all reported that he was a normal, well adjusted kid
Speaker 3: who did well in school, who got along with with
Speaker 3: his elders and his uh for his brother, there there
Speaker 3: were no signs whatsoever of any of any ominous future.
Speaker 3: And uh uh the the the the one thing that
Speaker 3: that did stand out was the fact that there were people,
Speaker 3: including a former teacher, who said that his his mother
Speaker 3: back then was ravishing, gorgeous, well figured brunette. And she
Speaker 3: later said, when she saw pictures of Jessica Lloyd Williams's
Speaker 3: second murder victim, that she was a dead ringer for
Speaker 3: what his mother looked like back in those days.
Speaker 5: That's very interesting too.
Speaker 3: But after after they moved to UH to Toronto, he
Speaker 3: essentially he blended in. He was a wallflower at school,
Speaker 3: not unusual, not unlike many of us in high school
Speaker 3: where the kind of guy who just kind of sits
Speaker 3: on the bench during dances and jokes around with the guys.
Speaker 3: But Uh wasn't wasn't really socially gregarious and the outgoing,
Speaker 3: but hardly the type that you'd expect to be a
Speaker 3: later serial killer. There there were lots of people who
Speaker 3: had known him back in high school who said that
Speaker 3: he seemed a little strange and a little unusual, but
Speaker 3: they no more would have suspected he'd be a serial
Speaker 3: killer than they suspected he would later be the commander
Speaker 3: of Canada's largest air force base. So there were no
Speaker 3: indications during his elementary school years, during his high school years,
Speaker 3: and even into his university. Here is there was very
Speaker 3: little in the way of anything bizarre about his character.
Speaker 5: How did he do academically in the elementary school, high
Speaker 5: school and will wait off for university, But how did
Speaker 5: he do in general in school? You say, wasn't so
Speaker 5: gregarious or socially adept will say but a lot of
Speaker 5: us aren't. I would say, well, how was he academically?
Speaker 3: Academically he was a good achiever, and the former teachers
Speaker 3: that I've spoken to said that he was. He was
Speaker 3: very smart, very bright, and very artistic, and he communicated
Speaker 3: well with his peers and with his teachers. And I
Speaker 3: also access some reports that had been filed by Children's
Speaker 3: Aid Society investigator who as part of standard procedure, would
Speaker 3: come in and observe the family back in those days
Speaker 3: whenever there was a divorce occurring, and their report on
Speaker 3: Russell was that he was a very well adjusted, very
Speaker 3: bright six year old boy, and who showed a lot
Speaker 3: of love for his brother and his parents, and was
Speaker 3: a very loving, well adjusted kid. So again, even even
Speaker 3: for the trained eye, they could not see any pattern
Speaker 3: of disturbing behavior.
Speaker 5: What was his social life like in terms of dating.
Speaker 3: That there was not a whole lot of dating during
Speaker 3: his high school years. He had one one woman, or
Speaker 3: one one young young woman who was his soul made
Speaker 3: during high school so to speak. They lived on the
Speaker 3: same street, he actually lived across the street from her.
Speaker 3: They were in the band together, but he didn't date
Speaker 3: outside of that relationship, and he was never seen to
Speaker 3: be socially or publicly affectionate with her. They'd walk hand
Speaker 3: in hand, but any other contact would be reserved for
Speaker 3: behind closed doors, and they never were seen kissing in
Speaker 3: the hallways or anything like that. Now, unfortunately, she's she's
Speaker 3: not willing to talk to anybody. I do know who
Speaker 3: she is, but she's stated she didn't want to go
Speaker 3: on record publicly as to what happened in their relationship.
Speaker 3: But that was the only girl he saw during high school.
Speaker 3: During he did have another another flame just as he
Speaker 3: was entering a university. He apparently was the one who
Speaker 3: broke that off. Then he met a foreign exchange student
Speaker 3: from Japan, and that was the one that ended up
Speaker 3: breaking his heart. Apparently she she returned to Japan after
Speaker 3: her studies and left him broken hearted. And apparently he
Speaker 3: did not date again after that until he met his
Speaker 3: his wife, I mean several several years later, a dozen
Speaker 3: years later. So he was quite a stretch there with
Speaker 3: no with no female interaction apparently.
Speaker 5: Right now, what was his inclination or what was his
Speaker 5: academic what was his dreams of being and how did
Speaker 5: he put those plans together for university? What were what
Speaker 5: were his plans for university and as a result, what
Speaker 5: did he believe he was going to study in university
Speaker 5: in that pursuit, Well.
Speaker 3: He took economics courses in at the University of Toronto
Speaker 3: at the Scarborough campus. He went there for four years
Speaker 3: studied economics. But oddly he seemed drawn two jobs where
Speaker 3: he would get to wear a uniform. And we can
Speaker 3: reflect back on that a little bit later, perhaps, but
Speaker 3: many people who are in his mindset, who are sexual
Speaker 3: satus are drawn two careers that have a certain degree
Speaker 3: of power and prestige. And he seemed to be during
Speaker 3: his university years kind of getting to know himself and
Speaker 3: moving away from the economics and the bookish type jobs
Speaker 3: to one that he would be in a position of
Speaker 3: power in. And he did apply to the RCMP as well,
Speaker 3: and he was actually accepted as an ARCYMP officer after
Speaker 3: a barrage of the tests, but he put that on
Speaker 3: hold to wait and hear back from the military first,
Speaker 3: because that was his prime objective at that point. Apparently
Speaker 3: he had been he had been inspired by Tom Cruise
Speaker 3: and Top Gun and that was that was now his
Speaker 3: plan for the future.
Speaker 5: So that was what you put in the book is
Speaker 5: that it even surprised his friends who had seen him
Speaker 5: go through and get a degree in economics. But at
Speaker 5: the same time, he seemed to watch the Top Gun
Speaker 5: movie and then around that time make his decision that
Speaker 5: he'd wanted to be a pilot and then apply to
Speaker 5: the military.
Speaker 3: Yep. Yeah, he apparently saw the movie Top Gun several
Speaker 3: dozen times, and that's when he made the announcement to
Speaker 3: his closest friends that he had decided to pursue a
Speaker 3: military career and was going to go for his pilot's
Speaker 3: license and and go from there. And they were all stunned.
Speaker 3: They thought he was joking at first, but he was
Speaker 3: dead serious. And eventually they they realized that he's he's
Speaker 3: leaving the four year economics diploma behind and he's gonna
Speaker 3: he's going to pursue this military thing.
Speaker 5: Now. He he applied to the military and he was accepted.
Speaker 5: How did he fare in the military right from the
Speaker 5: very beginning.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he was. He was a born natural, according to
Speaker 3: the people who knew him at the time in the
Speaker 3: military there, and that's why he ascended the the ladder
Speaker 3: so quickly. Uh, he really he wasted no time in
Speaker 3: jumping from from rank to rack and from from day
Speaker 3: one at boot camp out in British Columbia. He uh,
Speaker 3: he excelled, and he did wonderfully, and he was just
Speaker 3: he was just compelled to to achieve and climb that
Speaker 3: ladder as quick as he he's humanly produced. So and
Speaker 3: uh and the people I had spoke to who had
Speaker 3: worked with him in the military just said he was
Speaker 3: he was the ideal officer. He was the ideal candidate
Speaker 3: and from the get go people knew that he was
Speaker 3: going to be an achiever.
Speaker 5: Now, as characteristic of the military, lots of times you
Speaker 5: are stationed at different military bases. And so you talked
Speaker 5: about initially in British Columbia for our American audience, our
Speaker 5: West Coast province, British Columbia. He had also been in Winnipeg.
Speaker 5: In fact, that's where he married eventually, Mary Elizabeth Harriman
Speaker 5: tell us just where he was stationed, it's sort of
Speaker 5: the same time that he met Mary Elizabeth tell us
Speaker 5: that that time, that time frame, when did he meet
Speaker 5: Mary Elizabeth Harriman, And where was he in terms of
Speaker 5: his stature in the military, and where was he based
Speaker 5: at that time?
Speaker 3: Well, at at that point in time, he was actually
Speaker 3: a flight instructor out out at the base in Manitoba
Speaker 3: there and uh he was he was a major at
Speaker 3: the time, and he was actually doing as well as
Speaker 3: teaching uh flight instruction to new newer recruits, he was
Speaker 3: in an acrobatic an aerial acrobatic team as well, and
Speaker 3: uh he was highly regarded out there at the at
Speaker 3: the airport, and his immediate supervisor said that he knew
Speaker 3: that that this this man was going to go for
Speaker 3: the top. But they had already joked about him being
Speaker 3: uh the c A s one day and uh they
Speaker 3: they knew, they knew he was. He was going to
Speaker 3: be targeted for for a very senior position at one
Speaker 3: point in time, and that at that time he was
Speaker 3: he had the weekends off, so he would drive out
Speaker 3: to Alberta, another western province, and that's where he met
Speaker 3: Mary Elizabeth and he would if she was still in
Speaker 3: Calgary at the time, he would drive out every weekend
Speaker 3: in his little hatchback and spend the weekend with her
Speaker 3: and then drive back drive back to the base before
Speaker 3: Monday again, which is a huge, huge drive. To anybody
Speaker 3: who looks at the map, that is one huge drive
Speaker 3: to do return every weekend. So he was apparently head
Speaker 3: over heels in love with Mary Elizabeth and they were
Speaker 3: engaged in the very short order, and like I said,
Speaker 3: they got married in a small art gallery in Winnipeg.
Speaker 5: Yeah, the Winnipeg art gallery really interesting too. I am
Speaker 5: in Winnipeg. So now tell us about this eventual. Eventually,
Speaker 5: there is a couple communities that are involved in this story,
Speaker 5: and one being Tweed. So you can tell us where
Speaker 5: geographically Tweed is, and then you can tell us what
Speaker 5: kind of community this Cozy Cove is, so it has
Speaker 5: an interesting name, Cozy Cove, and also that there was
Speaker 5: still some ties to a suburb in Ottawa called Orleans.
Speaker 5: So tell us about how that worked and at what
Speaker 5: time was Williams and that he was in Tweed, And
Speaker 5: tell us where Tweet is in terms of geography.
Speaker 3: All right, Well, that Tweet is just immediately north of Belleville, Ontario,
Speaker 3: where I live actually, and that's on the northern shore
Speaker 3: of Lake Ontario, a stone threw across the lake from Rochester,
Speaker 3: New York. Tweet is about a half hour forty minute
Speaker 3: drive from Belleville, just directly north, and Cozy Cove is
Speaker 3: a little offshoot of the village of Tweet. Now Tweet
Speaker 3: has about fifteen hundred people. It's a very small town
Speaker 3: village actually, and Cozy Cove is just a on the
Speaker 3: outskirts of town on a lake actually on a little
Speaker 3: heart shaped bay on the small lake in town. And
Speaker 3: it's a very very tight knit community. It's since become
Speaker 3: very very volatile because there's a lot of mixed emotions
Speaker 3: there right now and a lot of politics being played out.
Speaker 3: But there's twenty twenty two houses on Cozy Cove Lane proper.
Speaker 3: Now the community does extend a little bit further. There's
Speaker 3: dirt path that you can go through and cut into
Speaker 3: other little college of sacks. But Cozy Cove Lane itself
Speaker 3: is very small, twenty two homes. And these people used
Speaker 3: to be a very retirement age community. But these days
Speaker 3: you have it's very eclectic. You have blue collar workers,
Speaker 3: you have white collar workers, you have people who come
Speaker 3: up from the city on the weak and a very
Speaker 3: eclectic mix of people. And Williams and his and his
Speaker 3: wife blended into that environment because they they had a
Speaker 3: big home in Ottawa and they were looking for a
Speaker 3: cottage where Russ Russell could stay during the week when
Speaker 3: he was working at the base, so he would he
Speaker 3: would often stay there through the week and then either
Speaker 3: drive back to Ottawa, his home in Ottawa to be
Speaker 3: shared with his wife, and she was she was working
Speaker 3: in Ottawa, so she would stay at that house and
Speaker 3: he either he would go back and visit her on
Speaker 3: the weekend or she would drive down to the cottage
Speaker 3: and visit him on the weekend. But uh, he was,
Speaker 3: he was. He was there in Cozy Cove himself throughout
Speaker 3: the week, the weekdays as he was working at the base.
Speaker 3: So I'm not sorry, I go ahead.
Speaker 5: Oh no, what I wanted to say too, is that okay,
Speaker 5: So the the neighbors that were in Cozy Cove, how
Speaker 5: did they characterize the couple themselves? And not that they
Speaker 5: found anything odd, but they did have an impression of them. Again,
Speaker 5: this seemed to be that he didn't have They didn't
Speaker 5: show the kind of affection that some people might show.
Speaker 5: But you tell us about what the impression of the
Speaker 5: neighbors were about this couple.
Speaker 3: Well, they told me that they looked upon them as more.
Speaker 3: They said, if they didn't know better, they wouldn't have
Speaker 3: thought they were married or even a couple, although they
Speaker 3: did walk around the neighborhood at times hand in hand,
Speaker 3: just kind of strolling around looking at flowers and birds
Speaker 3: and the water, but he said more often than not
Speaker 3: they would they'd be very formal around one another, both
Speaker 3: in dress and in conduct, and he very formally referred
Speaker 3: to her as Mary Elizabeth. There was no pet names
Speaker 3: for either one of them, and he would actually tell
Speaker 3: the neighbors she would like to be addressed by Mary Elizabeth.
Speaker 3: I don't call her Mary or Liz, maryl is police caller,
Speaker 3: Mary Elizabeth. And he would use the same the same
Speaker 3: name when he when he when he'd come out, he'd
Speaker 3: be cut in the lawn and he'd he'd be lounging
Speaker 3: with a book underneath the the umbrella, and he'd say,
Speaker 3: Mary Elizabeth, would you would you like a drink? Would
Speaker 3: you care for a drink? And the neighbors just thought
Speaker 3: that that was very unusual that that they were so
Speaker 3: formal around one another, And there was never any any
Speaker 3: public aside from the handholding when they went on walks,
Speaker 3: There was never any public displays of affection that would
Speaker 3: make one think that they were in love with one another.
Speaker 3: They were often described to me by by neighbors as
Speaker 3: appearing as though they were business partners or brother and sister.
Speaker 3: So they they found it very unusual the way they
Speaker 3: interacted with one another.
Speaker 5: Now, they didn't have a lot of opportunity to to
Speaker 5: uh consort with too many of the neighbors. But one
Speaker 5: of the neighbors live next door, and they called him
Speaker 5: sort of affectionately, as the people in the community called
Speaker 5: him the mayor of Cozy Cove. And his name was
Speaker 5: Larry Jones, and so he was next door. Tell us
Speaker 5: about Larry Jones had some insight into Colonel Williams. Russell Williams,
Speaker 5: tell us what you had found Larry Williams, our pardoner.
Speaker 5: Larry Jones had said about Russell Williams and his behavior.
Speaker 3: Well, Larry Larry Jones is to put it, I don't
Speaker 3: mean to talk down either, but he's a country bumpkin
Speaker 3: and he's proud of that. He was born and raised
Speaker 3: in the country, and he's very much a country boy.
Speaker 3: He found Russell Williams to be a bit of a
Speaker 3: comedy act, being a city slicker and not being very
Speaker 3: used to the country living and being able to be
Speaker 3: self sufficient with tools and the riding lawnmower and boats
Speaker 3: in the lake, and he would he told me off
Speaker 3: and laughed at how how inept Russell Williams was for
Speaker 3: somebody who was so far up in the military. How
Speaker 3: he how he couldn't tie his his boat properly and
Speaker 3: would let it drift out into the middle of the lake,
Speaker 3: and how he had no idea how to change blades
Speaker 3: on his riding lawn mower, so he he would often
Speaker 3: he would often help his next door in a neighbor
Speaker 3: with with menial chores like that. And there was one
Speaker 3: time that Russell Williams was scheduled to drop the puck
Speaker 3: at a charity hockey tournament in Belleville here as well
Speaker 3: as as the as the base commander, and he went
Speaker 3: to Larry Jones and asked, how do I drop a puck?
Speaker 3: What is there to it? So Larry Jones took him
Speaker 3: with with a puck and some hockey sticks out to
Speaker 3: the garage and showed him how to drop a puck.
Speaker 3: So he he just found uh, he just found Williams
Speaker 3: to be a bit of an anomaly that way, and
Speaker 3: uh to be quite reclusive. Well, when he didn't need
Speaker 3: your help, he he wouldn't even know he was home
Speaker 3: the house. The house would be kept dark. He would
Speaker 3: always keep his vehicle parked in the garage, The blinds
Speaker 3: would be closed, the doors would all be shut. He said.
Speaker 3: One time he heard music coming from the house and
Speaker 3: he went over to check it out because he thought
Speaker 3: somebody may have broke in and was scared when suddenly
Speaker 3: Williams popped his head up from the.
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Speaker 3: I was watching a movie and he had no idea
Speaker 3: he was even he was. He was even there for
Speaker 3: the weekend, so he said. He said he could be there,
Speaker 3: He could be there for days and you wouldn't even
Speaker 3: know he was. He was home.
Speaker 5: Now. Part of the training for a military person, and
Speaker 5: Russell Williams thought was very important to keep up his
Speaker 5: physical his physical appearance, and also to to work out
Speaker 5: and keep healthy and keep physical. And so one of
Speaker 5: the characteristics that that his wife knew about was that
Speaker 5: he would go often for evening jogs. Tell us a
Speaker 5: little bit about some of the habits that Colonel Williams
Speaker 5: had that, of course his wife was aware of.
Speaker 3: Well. He was starting to feel the effects of age.
Speaker 3: He was forty four and his back was giving him problems,
Speaker 3: his legs were giving him some trouble, and he was
Speaker 3: on medication, some pain control medication for his arthritic condition.
Speaker 3: And he would tell his wife apparently that he would
Speaker 3: go for these evening jogs just to relax his muscles
Speaker 3: and make it easier for him to sleep at night. Now, oddly,
Speaker 3: I mean a lot of the breakings occurred between the
Speaker 3: hours of one am and five am, and he'd be
Speaker 3: in a lot of these homes for upwards of two
Speaker 3: and a half hours, which in itself is incredibly strange. Usually,
Speaker 3: when somebody breaks in to steal something, you go in,
Speaker 3: you grab it and you get the heck out of there. Again,
Speaker 3: you don't. You don't stay in the house for two
Speaker 3: and a half hours, undressing, posing in there for self
Speaker 3: portraits and their garments, lying in their beds and uh.
Speaker 3: It just completely bizarre. But the fact that he claimed
Speaker 3: to his wife to be out for for late night
Speaker 3: jogs before going to bed, it just would it just
Speaker 3: seems beyond belief that the di Spose wouldn't question you
Speaker 3: when he came back several hours later, uh, in the
Speaker 3: wee hours of the morning. But that was his excuse,
Speaker 3: That's how he that's how he put it to his wife,
Speaker 3: was that he required these jogs to to relax and
Speaker 3: to settle in for the evening. And uh truth truth
Speaker 3: was he was when he wasn't breaking in, he was
Speaker 3: using these these jogs as a reconnaissance uh tours around
Speaker 3: the neighborhood to find out where the single women lived
Speaker 3: or where the attractive women lived and set up his agenda.
Speaker 5: Now, tell us what year this is that they've had
Speaker 5: these rash of break and ners. You've already alluded to
Speaker 5: what happened at the break and enter of these breaking enters,
Speaker 5: But tell us about the first break and entners that
Speaker 5: were discovered by police and what the homeowner discovered, because
Speaker 5: now we know, you know what Russell Williams was doing
Speaker 5: in that home but unbeknownst to the homeowners and to
Speaker 5: the police that investigated these break and entners. Tell us
Speaker 5: just what happened and the police reaction from the very
Speaker 5: first breaking enters that occurred in Cozy Cove.
Speaker 3: Well, the first break and enters that happened in Cozy
Speaker 3: Cove were back in two thousand and seven, and the
Speaker 3: very first one was as next door neighbor, not Larry Jones,
Speaker 3: but the neighbors on the other side, which was a
Speaker 3: middle aged couple who had a teenage son and a
Speaker 3: preteen daughter who was about twelve years old at the time.
Speaker 3: Williams took a took a liking to the twelve year
Speaker 3: old girl and she became the target of his first
Speaker 3: break in when they were actually up in Sudbury and
Speaker 3: Northern Ontario town for a death in the family, a
Speaker 3: family illness later turned to a death. He used that
Speaker 3: opportunity to go next door and spend several hours going
Speaker 3: going through her stuff in her bedroom and taking posing
Speaker 3: in her in her underwear and on her bed, taking
Speaker 3: portraits of himself, and he returned. He returned to that
Speaker 3: house several times. But from there it just it just continued.
Speaker 3: He preyed on other homes in the area. Uh. None
Speaker 3: of these were noted at the time or reported the place,
Speaker 3: with the exception of one. He was he was just
Speaker 3: so meticulous at that point in time that he could
Speaker 3: enter a house, he could spend hours there, he could
Speaker 3: have his fun leave with a few what psychiatrists called
Speaker 3: souvenirs or trophies, and people were none the wiser that
Speaker 3: anybody had been in their home. There was only one
Speaker 3: incident that was reported to place in cosey Kove, and
Speaker 3: that was not given priority treatment because often the police
Speaker 3: will consider these nuisance nuisance crimes, which is the wrong
Speaker 3: thing to do, of course, because quite often, as in
Speaker 3: the case with Williams, it's a sign of a future
Speaker 3: sexual predator basically in training. But they didn't have much
Speaker 3: reason to alert the neighborhood at that point in time
Speaker 3: because very few had even noticed that their stuff had
Speaker 3: been disturbed. But then the breakings. Then he moved his
Speaker 3: focus to his Orleans neighborhood near Ottawa and started breaking
Speaker 3: into residences all around their home there, and the Orleans
Speaker 3: police received more complaints and they were quick to jump
Speaker 3: on things, and they even had people working under cover
Speaker 3: on the street in weight lying in wait to watch
Speaker 3: for anybody suspicious approaching homes because he was just he
Speaker 3: was amazingly adept at slipping in and getting in without
Speaker 3: without anybody noticing, and spending like I said, hours inside
Speaker 3: and then slipping back out. And he was he was
Speaker 3: like a ghost figure. He was really getting under their skin.
Speaker 3: But from from what I hear from neighbors in Ottawa,
Speaker 3: they the police did not alert the neighbors of the
Speaker 3: neighborhood of the breakings occurring. They they they put their
Speaker 3: own man power out there to try and solve the crime,
Speaker 3: but didn't alert the neighborhood out of fear that it
Speaker 3: would it would rile the community. And there are neighbors
Speaker 3: now who resent that because they think they probably could
Speaker 3: have helped catch him if they had known that there
Speaker 3: was fetish burglar on the loose in their community, because
Speaker 3: a couple of times they did come close to defining
Speaker 3: somebody who was prowling around, but it was dismissed at
Speaker 3: that point.
Speaker 5: So the credit for the police in Orleans, in the
Speaker 5: bigger city of Ottawa, or are near the bigger city
Speaker 5: of Ottawa, they didn't regard these types of crimes as
Speaker 5: nuisance crimes and could see that it could possibly be
Speaker 5: an indication of a far more serious type of criminal
Speaker 5: that may be escalating at some point. So that's why
Speaker 5: they did put the effort almost immediately into trying to
Speaker 5: do some surveillance and try to capture this person that
Speaker 5: was breaking into the community in that area for sure,
Speaker 5: for sure.
Speaker 3: And unfortunately the break ins in the two communities weren't
Speaker 3: connected though at that point, because apparently the kind of
Speaker 3: break ins are a lot more common than most people realize.
Speaker 3: According to the police, these these occur in most big
Speaker 3: cities on a regular, ongoing basis, So to connect the
Speaker 3: break ins and Cozy Cove, which was two hundred kilometers
Speaker 3: away or two hundred and fifty klometers away from the
Speaker 3: Orleans neighborhood, was just not going to happen that quickly.
Speaker 5: Now, let's talk about the escalation of Russell Williams in
Speaker 5: terms of you said he would he was very adept
Speaker 5: at breaking into the home and then the homeowner not
Speaker 5: being aware that he had taken the underwear and the
Speaker 5: camusols and the bras and the trophies, and that he's
Speaker 5: even been in the home. At what point and was
Speaker 5: it in Cozy Cove that he escalated his behavior in
Speaker 5: terms of letting people know that he had been in
Speaker 5: their homes. And what did the police do as a
Speaker 5: result of that, Well.
Speaker 3: He started getting getting bolder, and I think I think
Speaker 3: he was probably getting bored with being so being so
Speaker 3: careful and being undetected. I think he wanted the thrill
Speaker 3: of being hunted u and out smarting. I mean, part
Speaker 3: of his narcissism was just the fact that he thought
Speaker 3: he was smarter than everybody else. He was sure he
Speaker 3: was smarter than the authorities, and he welcomed the challenge
Speaker 3: because he honestly believed that he could get away with
Speaker 3: it all. So he did escalate his behaviors and instead
Speaker 3: of leaving leaving the homes away that he had found them,
Speaker 3: he would purposely leave dirt and leaves from his from
Speaker 3: his shoes, he would he would he would track Muth
Speaker 3: through the house and as he's climbing in the windows,
Speaker 3: he would leave streaks down the walls and in some
Speaker 3: cases later on he left notes, taunting notes for his
Speaker 3: victims and left photo albums out opened up to pages
Speaker 3: with some photographs missing that he had kept for himself.
Speaker 3: And so he made a point of letting his victims
Speaker 3: know that they had been broken into. And I think
Speaker 3: it was all part of just the looking for a
Speaker 3: thrill he needed. He needed an escalation to to feel
Speaker 3: that adrenal insurge.
Speaker 5: Now, what did the police do once they realized that
Speaker 5: there was evidence of someone breaking into this small community
Speaker 5: and stealing certain things out of these people's homes. What
Speaker 5: did the police do as a result.
Speaker 3: Well, in in Cozy Cove, they they claimed that they
Speaker 3: were they were never aware of the break ins until
Speaker 3: until after he had been arrested. With the exceptions of
Speaker 3: the one that had been reported, the police claimed that
Speaker 3: the others were not brought to their attention. They had
Speaker 3: no idea that they had occurred. That's that's the official
Speaker 3: line on their story, at least up until or during
Speaker 3: the period where they were talking to media. The Ottawa
Speaker 3: Police in Orleans a completely different story. Again, They were
Speaker 3: they were working with the residents at one point after
Speaker 3: failing to apprehend them himself, and the neighbors were trying
Speaker 3: to set up their own organization, their own community organization
Speaker 3: to meet, kind of like a neighborhood watch program, but
Speaker 3: they were discouraged from doing that because it may may
Speaker 3: scare them away. They were actually used using the community,
Speaker 3: the neighborhood as as bait in some respects to lure
Speaker 3: this guy to a position where he would be caught.
Speaker 3: So it was just the was an ongoing police effort,
Speaker 3: but they did have some suspects. But there were stories
Speaker 3: of when they were interviewing the suspects as they were
Speaker 3: sure were responsible for the breakings, they get a phone
Speaker 3: call reporting another one. So he was always.
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Speaker 5: Now, let's talk about the escalation of Russell Williams to
Speaker 5: actually taking his twisted uh fantasies into reality and actually
Speaker 5: committing a break and enter and rape. So tell us
Speaker 5: about the first rape, first rape victim, and some of
Speaker 5: the characteristics of Russell Williams in the the commission of
Speaker 5: this rape.
Speaker 3: Right, Well, the first the first rape a sexual assault.
Speaker 3: There was there was no intercourse involved. But he saw
Speaker 3: this this young, attractive, a blonde female apparently while he
Speaker 3: was boating boating along the shore and saw her at
Speaker 3: her home and realized that she was living alone. Her
Speaker 3: significant other was working on the road, so she was
Speaker 3: often at home with a newborn baby by herself. He
Speaker 3: took mental note of that and put it on his agenda.
Speaker 3: And he found an insecure or an insecure window that
Speaker 3: he was able to crawl through while she was alone
Speaker 3: in the house, and he attacked her while she was
Speaker 3: lying sleeping in the bed. He overpowered her, and basically,
Speaker 3: the long and short of it is, he did not
Speaker 3: rape her, and he promised her that he wouldn't hurt
Speaker 3: the baby. He promised her that he wouldn't hurt her
Speaker 3: or raper as long as she she did complied with
Speaker 3: his with his demands, and his demands at that point
Speaker 3: were to tire her up, to remove her clothes, to
Speaker 3: have her pose for for for photographs for him from
Speaker 3: pretty lurid photographs, and then he would let her go.
Speaker 3: And that's essentially all he did. He he was there
Speaker 3: for a couple of hours and took a series of
Speaker 3: photographs of her and had her pose and demeaning and dehumanizing,
Speaker 3: humiliating positions, but he did not He fondled her, but
Speaker 3: he did He did not engage in any sexual acts
Speaker 3: beyond beyond touching. So that was the first first assault,
Speaker 3: and two weeks later he repeated the the action with
Speaker 3: another another neighbor of his, who's since come forward with
Speaker 3: with her name. It's Lorie Mascot, and she's an older lady,
Speaker 3: at least in comparison to his first victim, who was
Speaker 3: very youthful in her early twenties. The second one she
Speaker 3: was forty forty seven years old, quite an age difference,
Speaker 3: also blonde hair. But he broke in there through through
Speaker 3: an open window as well and attacked her. She was
Speaker 3: lying sleeping on the couch she had fallen asleep watching TV,
Speaker 3: and he'd be pretty much went through the same motions
Speaker 3: with with her, having her, tying her up, blind folding her,
Speaker 3: warning her not to try to look at him, and
Speaker 3: just to obey his commands, and he would he would
Speaker 3: leave her safe afterwards. And that's that's what he did.
Speaker 3: Was he posure and again in demeaning positions for two
Speaker 3: and a half hours, and took photo graphs, and oddly enough,
Speaker 3: he seemed caring and compassionate, whereas with the first victim,
Speaker 3: he'd promised her that he wasn't going to harm the baby.
Speaker 3: She she tried to dissuade him by saying, I've I
Speaker 3: put on some some weight from having the baby. I
Speaker 3: don't think you'll find me attractive, and he told her,
Speaker 3: I think I think you're you're perfect. And then with
Speaker 3: the second victim, he even got her title and all
Speaker 3: and and rubbed her temples and uh got her got
Speaker 3: her water and tilern alls to to help her headache
Speaker 3: that he had given from smashing her head with his flashlight.
Speaker 3: So quite a quite an odd behavior pattern was exhibited
Speaker 3: during these two early attacks, and that's where a lot
Speaker 3: of experts had gone wrong in believing he was what
Speaker 3: they call a power reassurance rapist, which is basically a
Speaker 3: rapist to fantasizes about having a relationship with these people,
Speaker 3: consenting relationship and they're actually trying to move in as
Speaker 3: they're as they're forcing themselves on them as a as
Speaker 3: a boyfriend role. But late later that was that was
Speaker 3: corrected and it was revealed that this is just basically
Speaker 3: he was. He was going through basic training for for
Speaker 3: his later assaults and kind of learning, learning who he
Speaker 3: was and what his techniques were going to be by
Speaker 3: taking these couple of early early evenings just to practice
Speaker 3: tying them up and humiliating them.
Speaker 5: So what did the police do as a result of
Speaker 5: these two sexual assaults, what did the police then do
Speaker 5: and who did they focus their attention on?
Speaker 3: Well, unfortunately, what what happened at that point was they
Speaker 3: they were casting some doubts on the on the first claim,
Speaker 3: the first young woman, They thought apparently that she she
Speaker 3: she had made this up so that her boyfriend would
Speaker 3: feel guilty and would spend more time at home with her.
Speaker 3: They didn't believe that some of the terminology that she
Speaker 3: said he used like he had told her to roll
Speaker 3: over onto her tummy, And it was their learned opinions
Speaker 3: that people who do sexual assaults, rapists do not use
Speaker 3: terms like tummy, and they're not as polite as as
Speaker 3: what she was claiming this guy was, and that they
Speaker 3: would they generally want to instill fear that they would
Speaker 3: hurt the baby if they didn't comply, and this guy
Speaker 3: was apparently promising that he wouldn't hurt the baby. So
Speaker 3: they questioned her story, her credibility, and they thought maybe
Speaker 3: it was just a apploy to the guilt the boyfriend
Speaker 3: with the With the second with the second sexual assault,
Speaker 3: they thought, based on their past interactions with this lady
Speaker 3: that she seemed may have been doing a copycat type
Speaker 3: of fence just to so she can get some government
Speaker 3: money on the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board, and she might
Speaker 3: have just been playing it up that way. So unfortunately
Speaker 3: they didn't take these as serious as they should have
Speaker 3: at the time, nor did they put out a warning
Speaker 3: to the community after the first sexual assault, which is
Speaker 3: now the basis of Lorie Massacot's civil suit against the
Speaker 3: opp for failure to warn the neighborhood that there was
Speaker 3: a sexual predator.
Speaker 5: On this part of the lawsuit is also the humiliation
Speaker 5: when the police did come to her home, they made
Speaker 5: her stay in the same constraints and wait for a
Speaker 5: police photographer to come. And that's part of her lawsuit
Speaker 5: as well, is that she endured this incredible amount of
Speaker 5: time in this humiliating and degradating, degrading posing for police,
Speaker 5: and then they spent hours continuing her ordeal.
Speaker 3: Right right, well, I believe it was five hours. They
Speaker 3: kept her wearing the same restraints that he had tied
Speaker 3: on to her while while they were interviewing her and
Speaker 3: asking her question, well, we're waiting for the forensic people
Speaker 3: to arrive and do their stuff. So she did say
Speaker 3: that it was particularly humiliating after suffering at the hands
Speaker 3: of Williams for two and a half hours to then
Speaker 3: be be kept in that condition while you're being interviewed
Speaker 3: by the police. So no, no doubt she was who
Speaker 3: She was disturbed by that, but she felt she had
Speaker 3: to do her part in order for this guy to
Speaker 3: get caught, so she went along with what the police
Speaker 3: were asking of her. And but she did claim to
Speaker 3: feel very humiliated during the whole procedure.
Speaker 5: Okay, now, so you say that the police are still
Speaker 5: in the dark despite the breaking enters, which they've written
Speaker 5: off as a nuisance type breaking enters. They didn't take
Speaker 5: them very seriously. They didn't have any contact. Well, I
Speaker 5: don't think they would have had any contact with police
Speaker 5: in Ottawa to see similarities. And like you say, these
Speaker 5: crimes off happen occur a lot more often than people
Speaker 5: might think. When exactly did the police finally get it
Speaker 5: through their head that they had a serious predator on
Speaker 5: the loose. When did this happen and why what crime
Speaker 5: precipitated them actually coming to their senses and realizing they
Speaker 5: had a serious predator in their midst.
Speaker 3: Well at the after the two sexual assaults, and I
Speaker 3: know what is very interesting too, and I'm I'd love
Speaker 3: to get some answers on this. Apparently, at the break
Speaker 3: ins in Outawa, there were a couple occasions where he
Speaker 3: left DNA evidence or potential DNA evidence behind. He ejaculated
Speaker 3: in the in the girls rooms and and left some
Speaker 3: evidence behind which they apparently sent for forensic testing, and
Speaker 3: for some reason it was an unusable sample. I'd like
Speaker 3: to I'd be very interested in finding out why such
Speaker 3: a substantial sample would be unfit for analysis, because they
Speaker 3: later did get DNA from from both the first sexual
Speaker 3: assault victim as well as the second, Laura Masacot, and
Speaker 3: that could have been connected readily at that point, had
Speaker 3: had they got results back from the sample that they
Speaker 3: obtained in Ottawa, and it was it just it was
Speaker 3: it's very peculiar that, based on the testimony as to
Speaker 3: what he did at this particular residence in Ottawa, he
Speaker 3: he not only adulterated hair brushes and and garments, but
Speaker 3: he ejaculated over addresser her treasure drawers. So there should
Speaker 3: have been substantial fluid to be able to obtain the
Speaker 3: DNA analysis on So I'd be very interested in finding
Speaker 3: it more about why it was unsuitable for analysis, because
Speaker 3: that was a huge opportunity to link begin linking these
Speaker 3: crimes up. And he did get the they did get
Speaker 3: samples from the two sexual assault victims in Cozico. But
Speaker 3: Laurie Massacot was what was put up by somebody she
Speaker 3: knows to call the police and claim it was her
Speaker 3: next door neighbor that she recognized the voice suddenly after
Speaker 3: further review in her in her head, than she recognized
Speaker 3: the voices that of Larry Jones. And based on based
Speaker 3: on that alone, apparently there's no indication that they had
Speaker 3: anything else to go on other than other than her word,
Speaker 3: they went and searched his place while he was at hunting.
Speaker 3: One day, he got back from hunting and they were
Speaker 3: literally tearing his place apart, looking for a whole list
Speaker 3: of items from lingerie to women's under garments and computer
Speaker 3: computer discs and photographs and cameras. And he was he
Speaker 3: was beside himself. He didn't understand what was going on.
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Speaker 3: Would be the subject of the investigation. But for quite
Speaker 3: some time afterwards he was. He was a prime suspect.
Speaker 3: He even went in for polygraphy volunteer to undergo an
Speaker 3: extent the polygraph tests and I was given a path
Speaker 3: on that and they told him he had been cleared.
Speaker 3: But yet he still found out weeks later that they
Speaker 3: were still asking around about him, still interviewing people about him,
Speaker 3: and they were still hot on his trail. So they
Speaker 3: were wasting a lot of time, unfortunately, with with his
Speaker 3: false lead that they were given about Larry Jones.
Speaker 5: Now just for our audience, so we could tell Larry
Speaker 5: Larry Jones is at that time was a senior citizen,
Speaker 5: maybe he could tell us just why he did not
Speaker 5: in hindsight, of course, why he couldn't possibly have been
Speaker 5: the person, at least it didn't seem so from what
Speaker 5: they found in his cottage, which was tell us what
Speaker 5: they found, and tell us who he was, and what
Speaker 5: kind of physical shape he was and what kind of
Speaker 5: size he was, and tell us a little bit more
Speaker 5: about Lorie Massacot's description that didn't really seem to fit.
Speaker 5: Tell us a little bit about that. Well.
Speaker 3: The police had been given descriptions by the first the
Speaker 3: two sexual assault victims as a male I believe they
Speaker 3: said probably between thirty thirty to fifty years of age.
Speaker 3: He was tall and tall and skinny and didn't have
Speaker 3: a whole lot of body hair. And by by contrast,
Speaker 3: Larry Jones is sixty five, sixty five years old. He's
Speaker 3: as hairy as a gorilla. I'm proud of it. And
Speaker 3: he's he's not not not short, but he's certainly not
Speaker 3: tall and lean either. He's he's very he's got a
Speaker 3: very pronounced ver belly, and he's proud of that as well.
Speaker 3: But apparently, when when the cops were focusing on him,
Speaker 3: he just ripped his shirt open and he said, do
Speaker 3: I look like this as fact that you've been given
Speaker 3: the description of and they had no answer for him.
Speaker 3: So it was very, very bizarre that they chose to
Speaker 3: focus their efforts on him, and as we know now,
Speaker 3: it was a lot of wasted time.
Speaker 5: Right, So tell us now about the actual murder, the
Speaker 5: first murder, and what police then did as a result
Speaker 5: of that incident.
Speaker 3: Well, the first murder was in November two thousand and nine,
Speaker 3: and that was Murray Franz Como in Brighton, Ontario, which
Speaker 3: is just west of Trent where the military, the Air
Speaker 3: Force base is and he had broken into her house
Speaker 3: a week before. He had had access to her and
Speaker 3: I should mention that she was a flight attendant working
Speaker 3: at the Air Force base. He had flown with once
Speaker 3: before and learned that she lived alone, and he found
Speaker 3: her attractive and he made a mental note of that,
Speaker 3: no doubt, And he was able to access her personnel
Speaker 3: records at the base and find out when she was
Speaker 3: away on assignments and used that to break into her
Speaker 3: house to do her little reconnaissance, make sure there were
Speaker 3: no males living there and check out the flora plan.
Speaker 3: He always liked to acquaint himself with the floor plans
Speaker 3: of the places before he made his final attacks, so
Speaker 3: he broke in there exactly a week before the murder
Speaker 3: took place, and stole some of her under garments and
Speaker 3: posed for some pictures, once again his typical signature. And
Speaker 3: then he returned a week later and broke in, broke
Speaker 3: in through a basement window, and lurked in the basement
Speaker 3: waiting for her to fall asleep. She came downstairs to
Speaker 3: check on her cat, or to find her cat to
Speaker 3: feed it, and he jumped sprang out from behind the
Speaker 3: furnace and and started attacking her and uh the the
Speaker 3: the assault went on for for several hours, and it
Speaker 3: was it was I presented quite graphically in the book,
Speaker 3: because later his behaviors are are analyzed as to why
Speaker 3: he why he did certain things that he did do.
Speaker 3: But the details are very graphic, and I I had
Speaker 3: access to video transcriptions and I was at the ascensing
Speaker 3: hearing for four days and heard all the testimony, and
Speaker 3: it was it was very very graphic details. He wrapped
Speaker 3: her face up and a towel and duct taped around it,
Speaker 3: and he ended up killing her by by suffocating her
Speaker 3: with the duct table over her nose in her mouth.
Speaker 3: The scene was was quite quite brutal. She he beat
Speaker 3: her quite severely because she did put up a fight.
Speaker 3: She tried to She tried to fight her way out
Speaker 3: of it, and as a result she suffered a lot
Speaker 3: of injuries. But oddly enough, after the it was her
Speaker 3: boyfriend who discovered her body a couple of days later
Speaker 3: called the police, and the police then told the public
Speaker 3: that there was no reason for public concern, that there
Speaker 3: was no public risk involved. They they were suspecting it
Speaker 3: as a domestic occurrence at first, but later ruled out
Speaker 3: her ex boyfriend and her current boyfriend. And yet for
Speaker 3: two months the public was still told it's it's there's
Speaker 3: no public risk here, even though again they got DNA
Speaker 3: from Marie France's home. Why this was not immediately connected
Speaker 3: to the DNA obtained and cozy cove the DNA that
Speaker 3: was obtained in Ottawa that apparently wasn't usable all all these,
Speaker 3: all these linkages should have she should have put a
Speaker 3: fast end to this, But but the public word was
Speaker 3: that it was it was an isolated incident, no threat
Speaker 3: to the public, and carry on as usual. Unfortunately, it
Speaker 3: was two months later that Jessica Lloyd went missing.
Speaker 5: Now tell us about Jessica Lloyd and her murder.
Speaker 3: Well, it was on her. Her home is on Highway
Speaker 3: thirty seven, which is a rural highway that passes north
Speaker 3: through from Belleville up to Tweed. So it's it's the
Speaker 3: route that Colonel Williams, or the former Colonel Williams Russell
Speaker 3: Williams took when he was returning home to his cottage
Speaker 3: at Koseykov from the from the military base through the weekdays.
Speaker 3: So he would he would, he would literally drive right past,
Speaker 3: right past her home. Now he he claims that he
Speaker 3: saw Jessica Lloyd through a basement window exercising on her treadmill.
Speaker 3: That that is a little a little tough to buy
Speaker 3: because her house is set a couple hundred feet back
Speaker 3: from from the highway. At highway speeds, you can hardly
Speaker 3: it's to raise bungalow. To be able to see an
Speaker 3: a basement window somebody on a treadmill is a stretching credibility.
Speaker 3: I think it's much more likely that perhaps he saw
Speaker 3: her out cutting the lawn or something and took mental note.
Speaker 3: But I believe he had been stalking her for some
Speaker 3: time before he made his move, and the night he
Speaker 3: the night he abducted her, he drove off the highway,
Speaker 3: parked his parked his truck by a roll of trees
Speaker 3: that kind of demarks the property line, just kind of
Speaker 3: blending with the darkness. It was a full moon that night,
Speaker 3: so it did cast some shine down enough that a
Speaker 3: passing police officer stopped at Jessica Lloyd's door before she
Speaker 3: had returned home. After seeing Williams's truck park there. She
Speaker 3: she thought it was unusual. The female officer knocked on
Speaker 3: the front door to to find out if it belonged there.
Speaker 3: Nobody answered, so the officer got back in her cruiser
Speaker 3: and drove off and never followed up and never took
Speaker 3: a note of the plate. Apparently, and unfortunately that I
Speaker 3: mean the officer apparently is dealing with a lot of
Speaker 3: stress and it has been off of stress leaves since.
Speaker 3: But that action alone could have saved could have potentially
Speaker 3: save Jessica Lloyd's life, because there was eight hours in
Speaker 3: between when she was reported missing the following day and
Speaker 3: when she was killed by Williams. But William Williams just lurked,
Speaker 3: lurked in her in her backyard, waiting for her to
Speaker 3: get home, and once she had got home, gone to
Speaker 3: her bedroom and the light was turned out. He made
Speaker 3: his move and slipped in through a rear door and
Speaker 3: and attacked her as she lied in bed. And he
Speaker 3: put that girl through close to twenty four hours of
Speaker 3: humiliating torture and just tormented her endlessly, at one point
Speaker 3: taking her from from her own home blindfolded into his
Speaker 3: vehicle and driving her back to Cozy Cove and keeping
Speaker 3: her for the remaining time at the cottage in Cozy Cove,
Speaker 3: where he ultimately killed her.
Speaker 5: And she thought, unlike the other victim in terms of putting,
Speaker 5: she didn't really put up a fight, and she thought
Speaker 5: being compliant would save her life. And she continually asked
Speaker 5: him if he was going to kill her, and he
Speaker 5: assured her no, But he did kill her in the end.
Speaker 3: Exactly she she she she went along with everything he
Speaker 3: had to say, and she she would she would ask
Speaker 3: for any critiques. Am I doing this right? Do you
Speaker 3: want me to do it some other way? She was very, very,
Speaker 3: very very compliant with him. And that was one of
Speaker 3: the things that I I set out to hopefully find
Speaker 3: out some answers to when I wrote this book, was
Speaker 3: did these women behave any any differently? Did did certain
Speaker 3: behavior patterns guarantee that they would live as opposed to
Speaker 3: the ones who were killed. But unfortunately there were there
Speaker 3: was There was no nothing like that, because the two
Speaker 3: that he murdered acted polar opposites to one was fire
Speaker 3: fighting back, giving it all she had to to break free,
Speaker 3: and the other one was compliant and giving him everything
Speaker 3: he wanted out of hopes that he would he would
Speaker 3: let her go in the end.
Speaker 5: Now, the Russell Williams at this time, and this is
Speaker 5: a big part of the story obviously, because this is
Speaker 5: a very very high ranking military officer, he's a colonel,
Speaker 5: and at the same time that he's pulling a he's
Speaker 5: doing these breaking enters. At that time, a couple of
Speaker 5: years before that, these break and enters were happy happening.
Speaker 5: His escalation to sexual assault and then his eventual escalation
Speaker 5: to sexual assault, forcible confinement and murder, tell us what
Speaker 5: was happening in his professional life.
Speaker 3: Well, he had just six months prior to committing the murders.
Speaker 3: He had been given the given command of a CFB
Speaker 3: Trend ad Win Trend, which is the busiest and the
Speaker 3: biggest Air Force base in Canada, and at that time,
Speaker 3: the operational temple of the base was extraordinary. We had
Speaker 3: the ongoing war effort, the combat mission in Afghanistan, we
Speaker 3: had the earthquake relief in Haiti, We were dealing with
Speaker 3: the Olympic securities theater, was ongoing structural improvements at the base.
Speaker 3: The base was literally torn up and they were doing
Speaker 3: all kinds of restructuring there. There was the temple around
Speaker 3: the base was just through the roof, So no doubt
Speaker 3: he had his share of stress, but he managed to
Speaker 3: He managed to keep ball in order and he never
Speaker 3: showed any sign. According to everyone I've interviewed, he was
Speaker 3: one of the most calm collected individuals they had ever met,
Speaker 3: and he never once appeared like he was out of control.
Speaker 5: Incredible. So, at this time, after the second murder, police
Speaker 5: find a footprint outside the home and also tire tracks
Speaker 5: and tell us how their investigation proceeds from there.
Speaker 3: Right, Well, it was actually Andy Lloyd and a relative
Speaker 3: of his another cousins who looked around the property and
Speaker 3: found the tire tracks. The police later took credit for it,
Speaker 3: but it was Andy Lloyd who found who found the
Speaker 3: footprints and the tire tire tracks. The police land made
Speaker 3: castings of those prints and the tracks and were able
Speaker 3: to through their specialized forensic services, be able to narrow
Speaker 3: it down. Now, they did get the year of the
Speaker 3: vehicle wrong. Two I believe they said it was in
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety nine to two thousand and one Nissan Passbinder
Speaker 3: and his was a two thousand and two Passbinder. But
Speaker 3: they did get the they did get the make of
Speaker 3: the vehicle correct, and they did get the brand and
Speaker 3: model of the tire correct. Two from the from the prince,
Speaker 3: from the from the footprint, they were able to determine
Speaker 3: the type of boot that was that was worn. And oddly,
Speaker 3: bizarrely enough, when Williams went when he was called in
Speaker 3: for the interview at Ottawa Police Headquarters, he drove the
Speaker 3: same truck and he wore the same boots and he
Speaker 3: used it at Jessica Lloyd.
Speaker 5: Says, Now they did a roads just a I guess,
Speaker 5: a routine roadside check. And tell us how they actually
Speaker 5: discovered that Russell Colonel Williams Russell Williams could have been
Speaker 5: a potential suspect despite the appearance of him being beyond
Speaker 5: reproach because of his stature and his position. But tell
Speaker 5: us how they proceeded with getting Russell Williams in the
Speaker 5: questioning tell us how what happened next?
Speaker 3: Right? Well, it was interesting I learned from some residents
Speaker 3: in cozy Kove who were irritated by the fact that
Speaker 3: when they had gone canvassing the neighborhood door to do
Speaker 3: or nobody had answered at Williams's residence, And when they
Speaker 3: learned that it was the commander of VP Trenton, they
Speaker 3: kind of sloughed it off and didn't bother to follow
Speaker 3: up with it again afterwards. But luckily when they did
Speaker 3: the roadside stop, which is typical investigation procedure, they waited
Speaker 3: till one week from the night that Jessica Lloyd disappeared
Speaker 3: and set it up just outside her residents to talk
Speaker 3: to people who would routinely pass by that time of
Speaker 3: night and that day of the week and see if
Speaker 3: they had seen anything out of the ordinary. Now, their
Speaker 3: secondary purpose was to look for any vehicle that matched
Speaker 3: the years of the pass find that they were looking
Speaker 3: for and had the kind of tires that they knew
Speaker 3: belonged to the vehicle as well. So while one officer
Speaker 3: was questioning the driver, the other officer was taking a
Speaker 3: look at the wheels and the tires, and that the
Speaker 3: model of the vehicle. And with Williams, he was one
Speaker 3: of the first stop that the at the traffic stopped
Speaker 3: there and they realized that his vehicle came very close
Speaker 3: to matching the years they were looking for in the pathfinder,
Speaker 3: and he had the right tires and he had the connections.
Speaker 3: Murray franz Como, with the first murder victim, worked at
Speaker 3: the base the sexual assaults that happened in Cozykove where
Speaker 3: his cottage was, and Jessica Lloyd had disappeared right on
Speaker 3: the route that he used to go back and forth.
Speaker 5: So from there they put the two into proverbial two
Speaker 5: and two together and then one of the officers asked
Speaker 5: him to come in for questioning. Is that what happened?
Speaker 3: That's right. They put around around the clock surveillance on
Speaker 3: him at that point and followed him back to Ottawa,
Speaker 3: and they did things like when he went to the
Speaker 3: car washed they and vacuumed this car. They confiscated the
Speaker 3: the garbage garbage bag afterwards and analyze it, but noting
Speaker 3: nothing came of that, so they decided to try a
Speaker 3: different approach rather than than risk losing Jessica Lloyd, if
Speaker 3: she was still alive and if he was still responsible
Speaker 3: for holding her captive somewhere. So that's when they decided
Speaker 3: to call him in for an interview at the police headquarters.
Speaker 5: So by the time they asked for the interview, they
Speaker 5: had already they were already gathering the warrants, they were
Speaker 5: already they had a good idea that it was possibly him,
Speaker 5: and so that's the way the questioning went. And they
Speaker 5: also picked a person that was very, very experienced and
Speaker 5: potentially could get him to build a rapport with Williams,
Speaker 5: so he had a definite strategy to be able to
Speaker 5: go in and question him effectively, where at the same
Speaker 5: time they were gathering evidence via warrants to be able
Speaker 5: to further their investigation.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, I mean their choice in Detective Sergeant Smith was
Speaker 3: fabulous because he did establish an amazing rapport with Williams.
Speaker 3: Williams was actually reluctant to see him leave the room
Speaker 3: each time he left and wanted assurances that he was
Speaker 3: coming back again, that he didn't want to talk to
Speaker 3: anybody else. So he was very effective in establishing that
Speaker 3: respectful rapport with the colonel who was very cocky at
Speaker 3: the time that he first went in there, chewing gum
Speaker 3: and making wise cracks and smiling for the camera. He
Speaker 3: became a very different man over hours of questioning by
Speaker 3: Detective Sergeant Smith. But he did he did produce. He
Speaker 3: was asked to produce the boots off his feet, and
Speaker 3: he volunteer surrendered them to Smith, and they matched up
Speaker 3: with the castings that they had made from the Jessica
Speaker 3: Lloytsch property. And he basically he put the nails on
Speaker 3: his own coffin there.
Speaker 5: Now, how did the officer or Sergeant Smith conduct the interview?
Speaker 5: At first, they built a rapport, obviously he was interested
Speaker 5: in his career. They built sort of a mutual respect,
Speaker 5: of course, by being non intimidating. He said, the days
Speaker 5: of rolling up the sleeves and two guys in the room,
Speaker 5: they just sent this sort of smaller looking guy, sort
Speaker 5: of an unassuming guy too, not a big tough cop,
Speaker 5: and not with that kind of attitude going into the room.
Speaker 5: But tell us how at some point he put some
Speaker 5: things in front of Colonel Williams that he hoped would
Speaker 5: get a response that he eventually did get.
Speaker 3: Well, I meant, Detective Sergeant Smith is a very unassuming man,
Speaker 3: as I've described him in the book to not the
Speaker 3: very intimidating fellow, and that works to his advantage. I'm
Speaker 3: sure likes of Williams, especially with Williams's narcissistic personality, UH
Speaker 3: probably would feel he was at a huge advantage over
Speaker 3: over Smith from the get go. But Smith is kind
Speaker 3: of like the like the Columbo character where he's underestimated,
Speaker 3: but if you turn your back on him, he's got you.
Speaker 3: And UH Smith used that to his advantage, and he
Speaker 3: has struck up a respectful raport with with Williams. He
Speaker 3: didn't treat him like a criminal, like a like a
Speaker 3: dirty predator. He he spoke with him on a on
Speaker 3: an equal basis as as commander of military forces, and
Speaker 3: UH paid him a lot of respect that way, which
Speaker 3: obviously worked well with with Williams and then his character
Speaker 3: and his need for UH prestige and and and respect
Speaker 3: that way. But it was the the evidence once once
Speaker 3: UH Smith resented the footprint evidence and the tire treade
Speaker 3: evidence and similarity in the vehicles and presented that to
Speaker 3: the Williams.
Speaker 1: UH.
Speaker 3: He he knew He's He's a smart man. Williams is
Speaker 3: no dummy. He knew his his goose was cooked. And
Speaker 3: at that point it became obvious to Smith that that
Speaker 3: Williams was more concerned about the well being of his
Speaker 3: wife and his public image in terms of the Canadian
Speaker 3: military establishment. So he worked, he worked on that. He
Speaker 3: he basically got williams cooperation through making things easier for
Speaker 3: his wife and bringing less shame to the UH or
Speaker 3: making him believe that it would be less shame to
Speaker 3: the Canadian military establishment. So in that, in that, in
Speaker 3: that respect, he gained Williams' trust. And I mean it
Speaker 3: did not come without with effort, without effort, and without
Speaker 3: a lot a great deal of reflection on Williams's If
Speaker 3: you've seen the video or I have read the book,
Speaker 3: there there are long periods where no words or exchange.
Speaker 3: He's just sitting there, stroking his chin and staring at
Speaker 3: the floor, no doubt, fighting with the turmoil. What what
Speaker 3: should I do? How can I make this best? And
Speaker 3: eventually he just he just caved in. And when when
Speaker 3: Smith handed him or actually no, Smith asked where where
Speaker 3: Jessica Lloyd was, and the breaking point was Williams just
Speaker 3: looked up at him and said, got a map? And
Speaker 3: from that point forward he he let it all loose.
Speaker 5: In terms of some of the evidence as well that
Speaker 5: maybe police might have found Smith was able to determine
Speaker 5: Russell Williams. Colonel Williams did not want a new home
Speaker 5: that he had built they had bought together with his
Speaker 5: wife to be ripped apart, so he wanted to lessen
Speaker 5: some of that trauma for her the destruction of that home,
Speaker 5: so he willingly gave up a lot of secret stashes
Speaker 5: of some of the computer discs and some of the
Speaker 5: clothing that he had hidden. Tell us a little bit
Speaker 5: more about how extensive a confession and disclosure of evidence
Speaker 5: that the Smith was able to get from Colonel Williams.
Speaker 3: Well, Williams just came clean with everything. Basically, like you said,
Speaker 3: he was concerned that the home they had just moved
Speaker 3: into in Ottawa, which was his wife's dream home that
Speaker 3: she had wanted for many years. They had just moved
Speaker 3: in just weeks before, and boxers were still packed and
Speaker 3: they were still unpacking and settling in, and he was
Speaker 3: concerned that they were tearing up the floors and punching
Speaker 3: in the walls and that the house was being destroyed.
Speaker 3: So he he told Smith, I'll tell you exactly where
Speaker 3: everything is as long as you promised to pull your
Speaker 3: men out of there, and uh, just target specifically where
Speaker 3: I tell you. So he gave them, He gave them
Speaker 3: complete directions to where in the ventilation systems. He had
Speaker 3: computer hard drives hidden. Then on these computer hard drives,
Speaker 3: he had meticulous records of all all his breaking enters,
Speaker 3: the addresses, the dates, and the times, how long he
Speaker 3: was there, what evident or what items he took from
Speaker 3: the home. And uh, he was just meticulous with his
Speaker 3: records keeping that way. So he basically he just he's
Speaker 3: saying he sank his own ship because they they otherwise
Speaker 3: probably would have had a real hard time connecting these
Speaker 3: these multiple break ins to him. But he just had
Speaker 3: all the evidence there and waiting for them. He also
Speaker 3: gave them directions to to boxes that were filled with
Speaker 3: boxes and bags full of women's garments and photographs of
Speaker 3: his victims, and photographs of Jessica Lloyd along with some
Speaker 3: of her identification that he had taken that were in boxes,
Speaker 3: in unpacked boxes in the house that they had just
Speaker 3: moved into. Oddly enough, and uh, they uncovered most of
Speaker 3: the most of the items in the Ottawa home, but
Speaker 3: he also gave them directions to places in the in
Speaker 3: the Tweed cottage where he had duct taped some eight
Speaker 3: millimeter videotapes of his attacks underneath his piano and other
Speaker 3: items in the in the Ottawa home, as well more
Speaker 3: computer gizmos and stuff like that too, and discs and files.
Speaker 3: So they had a bounty of evidence. At at that point,
Speaker 3: they had just hit the mother load. They really their
Speaker 3: their their case was made for them. They didn't have
Speaker 3: to do any any further digging after that.
Speaker 5: And so basically the world woke up basically the next
Speaker 5: day and cans and especially the Canadian military to learn
Speaker 5: that this person that they had no idea, this exemplary
Speaker 5: a military person and despite maybe being somewhat odd, no
Speaker 5: one would have thought that this person was capable of
Speaker 5: this whatsoever. At the same time, the military acted swiftly
Speaker 5: to distance themselves from Colonel Williams. And we'll go on
Speaker 5: if we get a little bit of time, we'll talk
Speaker 5: about that. But basically, unlike many many trials, and you
Speaker 5: point this out multiple homicide, the defense lawyer decided just
Speaker 5: to enter a guilty plea at the trial. It's not
Speaker 5: correct right.
Speaker 3: Well, apparently that was at the desire of Williams himself.
Speaker 3: He wanted the trial to be over and out of
Speaker 3: the public spotlight as quickly as possible, or not not
Speaker 3: one of the trial, but he just wanted to be
Speaker 3: plead guilty to discharges and get out of the public
Speaker 3: spotlight as quick as possible and keep his legal bills
Speaker 3: and an absolute minimum to protect his wife's assets, and
Speaker 3: just avoid bringing too much shame on his family and
Speaker 3: his wife. There was also indication that he had evidence
Speaker 3: that they had found relating to photographs of bondage and
Speaker 3: discipline and s and m and a lot of it
Speaker 3: involving teenage girls that he wanted to keep out from
Speaker 3: the media spotlight. So it's been rumored that that was
Speaker 3: part of the part of his desire to get it
Speaker 3: all over with as quick as possible.
Speaker 5: So he was also implicated in forty eight break and
Speaker 5: enters and the sexual assaults and the two murders. Tell
Speaker 5: us about the sentencing, tell us about sort of the
Speaker 5: mood at the trial, and tell us about what the
Speaker 5: military did.
Speaker 3: Well. He was actually eighty two eighty two Break into
Speaker 3: was forty eight to forty eight homes he just returned
Speaker 3: to some on multiple occasions. So he was convicted of
Speaker 3: eighty two b and es or a few of them
Speaker 3: being attempted be and es when he encountered alarm systems,
Speaker 3: he was quick to retreat and run off before being discovered.
Speaker 3: But he pled guilty to all of the charges that
Speaker 3: were brought against him, and it took I believe it
Speaker 3: was some like forty forty minutes to read out all
Speaker 3: the charges that that were in front of him before
Speaker 3: he played guilty. But then the Crown, the Crown Attorney,
Speaker 3: Crown Attorney's office provided four days of graphic evidence as
Speaker 3: to his crimes and showed photographs. In the photographs that
Speaker 3: have been released that you can see in in my book,
Speaker 3: and they've been in different newspapers as well, are very
Speaker 3: tame compared to the photographs they showed in the courtroom
Speaker 3: for hours upon hours, and they did they did not
Speaker 3: show the video, but I was able to get my
Speaker 3: hands on the transcript of everything that occurred on on
Speaker 3: the videotapes, which I used to create some rather disturbing
Speaker 3: scenes in the book. But four days of very graphic evidence,
Speaker 3: and the Crown Attorney said they were doing that so
Speaker 3: that it would be on the record, so that ever
Speaker 3: he applied for parl that it would be there and
Speaker 3: could be used to prevent that release from happening. But
Speaker 3: go ahead, uh did. There were in the in the courtroom.
Speaker 3: It was a very very tense, very emotional four days.
Speaker 3: I mean half the courtroom were where media, as you
Speaker 3: can imagine, and the other half were were family, family
Speaker 3: members of victims and even a couple of few victims
Speaker 3: themselves and the uh the feelings were just palpable in
Speaker 3: the courtroom. I mean, the tears were constantly flowing. They
Speaker 3: had they had boxes of Kleenex on every the end
Speaker 3: of every pew for for all the family members. Family
Speaker 3: members would often they'd get up and leave before the
Speaker 3: evidence was presented as to what happened to their particular
Speaker 3: family member. And uh Andy Lloyd himself left the courtroom
Speaker 3: with his mother just before the evidence uh began for
Speaker 3: Jessica Lloyd, and he passed within a couple of inches
Speaker 3: behind walking right behind Williams behind the plate glass of course,
Speaker 3: but I just imagining the restraint that was necessary for
Speaker 3: him to get pass within a couple of inches of
Speaker 3: the man who who who humiliated and brutalized his and
Speaker 3: killed his his his baby sister. Was just it's unfathomable.
Speaker 3: But the courtroom was it was a very quiet courtroom
Speaker 3: U S s I from the the emotional outbursts occasionally,
Speaker 3: but everyone was just just glued to the testimony because
Speaker 3: up until that point, nobody knew that he was involved
Speaker 3: in cross dressing. That was that was released that came
Speaker 3: to light during the sensing hearing UH and the and
Speaker 3: the hundreds of photographs that they showed those in the
Speaker 3: courtroom of him posing in very provocative poses and in
Speaker 3: in their undergarments and on their beds and doing a
Speaker 3: very unspeakable acts with their with their teddy bears and
Speaker 3: their their hair brushes and stuff like that. So it
Speaker 3: was it was very very intense four days. But Williams
Speaker 3: did get up, to his credit, he did. He was
Speaker 3: asked by the judge if he would like to address
Speaker 3: the court with anything, and he did get up and
Speaker 3: offer a He spoke for about five minutes and and
Speaker 3: there was nothing that that was going to do to
Speaker 3: There's nothing that could help him with his sentence was automatic.
Speaker 3: There was not going to be any any form of leniency.
Speaker 3: He had been disgraced publicly and exposed for who he
Speaker 3: really was. But at least he at least he stood
Speaker 3: and addressed the courtroom again with with with no indication
Speaker 3: that it was an attempt at being self serving, because
Speaker 3: there was nothing to be gained from it. So that's
Speaker 3: how the that's how the the courtroom testimony ended. Now,
Speaker 3: of course he was emotional in his speech, but his
Speaker 3: his tears, there were no tears coming from his eyes,
Speaker 3: and when he lifted the tissue to his face, it
Speaker 3: was to wipe his nose and not his eyes. So
Speaker 3: as to whether or not there was true remorse remains
Speaker 3: a hot topic of debate amongst the experts, but most
Speaker 3: tend to agree that he as a sexual statist, and
Speaker 3: with the list of personality disorders that he's got, that
Speaker 3: he's not feeling remorse, and he has a little compassion
Speaker 3: for the victims and the families of the victims.
Speaker 5: Right, just be we just have a little bit of
Speaker 5: time left. We've gone a little bit over just because
Speaker 5: this story just is just necessary to explain this full, incredible,
Speaker 5: compelling story. What did the I found the military response
Speaker 5: quite dramatic. Tell us what the military did as a result.
Speaker 3: Of this, well, they immediately went into damage control mode,
Speaker 3: which is understandable. I mean, we've had serial killers before
Speaker 3: in North American around the world that have been oddities
Speaker 3: and the people we rely suspect the Ted Bundy's amongst us,
Speaker 3: but never as a as a serial killer been this
Speaker 3: high in a public position of authority before. I mean,
Speaker 3: in order to if if you go into the history
Speaker 3: of serial killers who have been this high ranking in
Speaker 3: the military, you'd have to go back to the days
Speaker 3: of Joan of Arc to find a similar ranking officer
Speaker 3: who was exposed as a serial killer. So, I mean,
Speaker 3: just the position in society that this man had was
Speaker 3: just devastating to the community, to the country, and most
Speaker 3: of all to the military. So obviously they went into immediate,
Speaker 3: immediate damage control to make sure that the public was
Speaker 3: aware that this was a very one off case and
Speaker 3: that the military did not create this person, and that
Speaker 3: he was just a bad guy who managed to infiltrate
Speaker 3: a very sound and honorable military community, and he could
Speaker 3: have belonged to any profession really, So it was just then,
Speaker 3: of course, if the public got concerned with whether or
Speaker 3: not the screening methods are appropriate, that the military, and
Speaker 3: that opens up a whole letther can of worms. He's
Speaker 3: seeing that there are no psychological tests involved. From the
Speaker 3: time new recruit goes through the ranks and the sense
Speaker 3: of military ladder and becomes a colonel and he's given
Speaker 3: command of a military base, there are no psychological tests
Speaker 3: given to those candidates. So is there room for improvement?
Speaker 3: I believe there is, and so do many of the experts.
Speaker 5: Well, what I was speaking about is you've included in
Speaker 5: your book is the military did the took the unprecedented
Speaker 5: step of gathering all his uniforms and burning them in
Speaker 5: case somebody could would buy that uniform or auction it
Speaker 5: off as a curiosity or keepsake, and the medals were
Speaker 5: destroyed so that they could never be turned into anything else.
Speaker 5: As well, they did an unprecedented effort to rid themselves
Speaker 5: of the memory of Russell Williams to a great degree.
Speaker 5: It was personal, it seemed it was professional, but it
Speaker 5: also was an incredible chapter in the military's history that
Speaker 5: they wish they didn't have to have gone through.
Speaker 3: I think for sure they want to erase all memory
Speaker 3: of this man. And I mean that's completely understandable. What's
Speaker 3: disturbing though, is just how many people want to sweep
Speaker 3: this under the carpet and pretend it never happened. There's
Speaker 3: a huge mindset out there that believe that if you
Speaker 3: pretend it didn't happen, then it really didn't happen. And
Speaker 3: I just disagree with that mentality altogether, because this was
Speaker 3: a huge wake up call for all of us to
Speaker 3: realize that there's predators in our mists, and and so
Speaker 3: sometimes there are the very people that we were taught
Speaker 3: as children to run towards for help, that that that
Speaker 3: that we are are capable of such grievous actions. So
Speaker 3: I think it's a huge wake up call, and I
Speaker 3: think we we do ourselves with the service as a
Speaker 3: society if we if we try and and and bury
Speaker 3: all all memory, all recollection all accounts of of what
Speaker 3: what he did. I think we really need to to
Speaker 3: examine him, try and get some answers. And that's that's
Speaker 3: really what I've I've I've tackled in Camouflage Killers is
Speaker 3: to go after the whys in the house, because those
Speaker 3: are the questions that haven't been answered by I mean,
Speaker 3: it's been in Canada at least, uh there was media
Speaker 3: saturation last year, but those questions remain unanswered, and that's
Speaker 3: that was the focus, uh of my efforts over the
Speaker 3: year of digging and prying and consulting with the experts
Speaker 3: to try and figure out the the reasons for for
Speaker 3: such a person being created and why he was willing
Speaker 3: to risk everything he had he had he had got
Speaker 3: over the years based on his his sexual verses and really,
Speaker 3: I mean it's it was fascinating discoveries and disturbing discoveries.
Speaker 3: But I think we need to examine that and if
Speaker 3: we if we pretend it didn't existed, then we're just
Speaker 3: that we're destined to repeat history again. Not not to
Speaker 3: say we can prevent people like this from from hurting us,
Speaker 3: but the greater the understanding we have of them, hopefully
Speaker 3: the easier it is to to understand anomalies and people
Speaker 3: and bring it to bring it to the attention of
Speaker 3: those who could help them in early stages.
Speaker 5: I agree with you too in that this is the
Speaker 5: Another case that happened in our biggest city and in
Speaker 5: the biggest metropolitan area is the Toronto Area GTA, the
Speaker 5: Greater Toronto Area. And what we have is that the
Speaker 5: Bernardo Hamalka case, and quite a few years later we
Speaker 5: have the Russell Williams Coincidentally, ironically and very weirdly, both
Speaker 5: of these people attended the same economics class at the
Speaker 5: University of Toronto. And at the same time, it's not
Speaker 5: to beat up on the police in Canada, but the
Speaker 5: police could have done a much better job in this case.
Speaker 5: They could have done a much better job in apprehensiing
Speaker 5: apprehending Paul Bernardo. They could have done a much better
Speaker 5: job in apprehending Robert Picton. And yet, as you've just
Speaker 5: pointed out, there is no analysis of these type of people.
Speaker 5: There's no study. The story is high profile and then
Speaker 5: it just drops out like never hear about it again.
Speaker 5: It doesn't warrant any examination or analysis. And at the
Speaker 5: same time, it seems like we can't because we don't
Speaker 5: have so much experience with these type of offenders. There
Speaker 5: seems to be just as much a lack of understanding
Speaker 5: as before Paul Bernardo appeared on the stage, or Colonel
Speaker 5: Williams or Robert Picton. So it seems that we're destined
Speaker 5: to repeat ourselves, just like you say, because we are
Speaker 5: resistant or reluctant to try to understand these type of offenders.
Speaker 3: Well, unfortunately we continue, at least the police continue to
Speaker 3: make the same mistakes that they've and made efforts to correct.
Speaker 3: From the days of Paul Bernardo, of course, there was
Speaker 3: a huge inquiry afterwards into the role of the police
Speaker 3: and the lack of communication between police forces. There was
Speaker 3: jealousy between the police forces and politics play it out,
Speaker 3: and the lack of communication resulted in the delay and apprehension.
Speaker 3: And since since then, supposedly there's been a huge improvements
Speaker 3: in communications between police forces. But again taking a look
Speaker 3: at the Williams case, there's huge evidence of I mean,
Speaker 3: the the opp who policed Cozy Cove were not enlightening
Speaker 3: the Belleville police of what was happening just up the road.
Speaker 3: And when the Belleville police we're investigating incidents down here,
Speaker 3: they weren't aware of the sexual assaults that had taken
Speaker 3: place in Cozy Cove just a half hour drive away.
Speaker 3: They're just a huge, huge miscommunication gaps where uh, there
Speaker 3: was one one lady who was broken into and had
Speaker 3: sex toys, sex paraphernalius soul on from her. Williams left
Speaker 3: a taunting message on her computer go ahead and call
Speaker 3: the police. I'd love to show the judge you're really
Speaker 3: big dildos. And when the police came and responded to
Speaker 3: her call, they weren't They weren't aware of the sexual
Speaker 3: assaults that they had taken place just just a short
Speaker 3: drive up the road from her. And then when Jessica
Speaker 3: Lloyd went missing, it was just a few hundred feet
Speaker 3: away from the house where the sex toys were stolen,
Speaker 3: and police were canvassing the neighborhood. She had this victim
Speaker 3: had to remind the police that she had been broken
Speaker 3: into and had sex toys stolen and taunting messages left.
Speaker 3: This is a spitting distance from Jessica Lloyd's house, so
Speaker 3: that the police just there's still they still need to
Speaker 3: improve communications. And the whole fact that after the sensing
Speaker 3: hearing that the police and the Crown Attorney's office said
Speaker 3: we can't discuss any any more facts about this case
Speaker 3: for thirty days until the appeal timeline has been exhausted.
Speaker 3: Thirty days later, they issued a statement that nobody, none
Speaker 3: of the police officers or Crown attorneys involved in the
Speaker 3: Williams case, we're going to talk to the media anymore
Speaker 3: out of respect for the victim's families. So it's been
Speaker 3: a big, huge media blockade. There's no more questions can
Speaker 3: be asked, no answers are there to be given, just one,
Speaker 3: one huge blue wall. And that is not how you
Speaker 3: improve police services and improve investigation techniques by bearing it
Speaker 3: along with a lot of people just hope this case
Speaker 3: will go away and all memories of it will be eradicated,
Speaker 3: but hopefully my book will make sure that's not the case.
Speaker 5: Yes, as we're going to wrap up here shortly, I
Speaker 5: wanted to tell the audience as well that you do
Speaker 5: an extensive job at the end of the book consulting
Speaker 5: with the famous criminal profile Roy Hazelwood from the BA
Speaker 5: Unit in FBI, and he's one of the prominent criminal profilers,
Speaker 5: and it's very interesting. A lot of books, true crime
Speaker 5: books will go to that effort to talk about that
Speaker 5: because it's so important to try to understand the state
Speaker 5: of mind, the psychology behind these types of crimes and
Speaker 5: these types of offenders. And you do a good job
Speaker 5: at the end of the book. Some people put this
Speaker 5: near the beginning of the book, but you placed it
Speaker 5: well in the back of the book for the analysis
Speaker 5: of this person, the Colonel Williams to try to identify
Speaker 5: his personality psychological profile, and so you do an admirable job,
Speaker 5: and that is what we didn't discuss, along with some
Speaker 5: of the other things that happened after the sentencing, that
Speaker 5: people who are compelled to buy your book after hearing
Speaker 5: this interview will have the added bonus of finding out
Speaker 5: some of this other information. It's just really, really fascinating.
Speaker 5: So I want to thank you for an incredible job
Speaker 5: putting this thing together, this book together, because the research
Speaker 5: must have been daunting. It's a fascinating, incredible story, and
Speaker 5: it's a fascinating read. It's really you're on the edge
Speaker 5: of your seat reading this entire book. So I applaud
Speaker 5: you for what you've done, and like you say, I
Speaker 5: hope it does become a catalyst for at least some
Speaker 5: sort of study review that Canadians can realize that this
Speaker 5: is something that they need to know about, and maybe
Speaker 5: the police forces will It might be a wake up
Speaker 5: call for them as well, because we just keep getting
Speaker 5: too many of these cases. Where with thy class and
Speaker 5: which is the American equivalent of VYCAP, we should have
Speaker 5: a system that did the police agencies communicate with each other.
Speaker 5: This is not the sixties or the seventies when they
Speaker 5: didn't have that type of technology, and yet we're seeing
Speaker 5: the same sorts of problems where just a few, like
Speaker 5: you say, just a few miles down the road, the
Speaker 5: police are unaware of crimes that could easily or should
Speaker 5: be readily connected anyway.
Speaker 3: So absolutely, absolutely so, I.
Speaker 5: Just want to thank you very much for coming on
Speaker 5: my little program here and talking about your book Camouflaged Killer,
Speaker 5: The Shocking Double Life of Canadian Air Force Colonel Russell Williams.
Speaker 5: For those people have been listening, my guest, my special
Speaker 5: guest journalist and author is David A. Gibb. So that's
Speaker 5: Camouflage Killer, The Shocking Double Life of Canadian Air Force
Speaker 5: Colonel Russell Williams. Thank you very much for appearing on
Speaker 5: the program, and thank you for a great interview.
Speaker 3: Oh, thank you, Dan, I appreciate it well.
Speaker 5: Thank you very much, and have yourself a good.
Speaker 3: Evening you too, Dan.
Speaker 5: Thank you you've been listening to the program True Murder,
Speaker 5: the most shocking killers in true crime history and the
Speaker 5: authors that have written about them, with my special guest
Speaker 5: David A. Gibb from Camouflage Killer. Good night,