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Daily bonuses are rating no 22 00:00:59.000 --> 00:00:59.799 purchase necessary. 23 00:00:59.799 --> 00:01:02.320 Boy were prohibited by Black eighteen plus terms and conditions 24 00:01:02.320 --> 00:01:03.920 of the playing See website for details. 25 00:01:05.840 --> 00:01:07.120 Loop hot Radian. 26 00:01:16.239 --> 00:01:19.640 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 27 00:01:19.760 --> 00:01:22.760 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 28 00:01:22.840 --> 00:01:30.120 written about them Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every 29 00:01:30.159 --> 00:01:33.840 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 30 00:01:33.959 --> 00:01:38.120 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 31 00:01:38.159 --> 00:01:41.400 host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 32 00:01:50.920 --> 00:01:54.760 Good Evening. In nineteen sixty eight, a budding New York 33 00:01:54.799 --> 00:01:58.879 City entrepreneur who provided immigrants with jobs takes a floridification 34 00:01:59.000 --> 00:02:04.040 with his family. Meanwhile, his relative and employee is murdered 35 00:02:04.040 --> 00:02:08.159 on Long Island. Upon returning to New York, Sam Summer 36 00:02:08.240 --> 00:02:11.520 learns the fate of his wife's uncle, Irving Silver, when 37 00:02:11.520 --> 00:02:15.199 he doesn't show up to carpool to work. Three days 38 00:02:15.199 --> 00:02:18.599 passed with no clues about his death. Then a recent 39 00:02:18.680 --> 00:02:21.479 contractor at Sam's deli sets up a meeting to share 40 00:02:21.560 --> 00:02:25.840 news on the investigation. Within moments after pulling into a 41 00:02:25.879 --> 00:02:29.039 doughnut shop parking lot to meet, Sam is kidnapped by 42 00:02:29.039 --> 00:02:32.680 detectives with the engine still running. While held in custody, 43 00:02:32.680 --> 00:02:36.840 he is beaten and allegedly confesses to the murder. Court 44 00:02:36.879 --> 00:02:41.360 proceedings amount to do overs. A pellet victories and overturns 45 00:02:41.400 --> 00:02:45.280 and mysterious documents. Sam Is found guilty of murder in 46 00:02:45.360 --> 00:02:49.719 nineteen seventy one with short Order, within short order, his 47 00:02:49.840 --> 00:02:54.719 case is highlighted in college law courses. After surviving years 48 00:02:54.719 --> 00:02:57.560 of power hungry guards and moving often from prison to 49 00:02:57.599 --> 00:03:00.360 prison for good behavior, Sam is really at least on 50 00:03:00.400 --> 00:03:04.400 parole in nineteen ninety one. Justice continued to railroad him 51 00:03:04.479 --> 00:03:08.199 until twenty fifteen when he finds an eerie document in 52 00:03:08.240 --> 00:03:12.919 the police archives that proves his innocence. That discovery triggered 53 00:03:12.960 --> 00:03:17.719 the reopening of the case and free legal assistance. What 54 00:03:17.759 --> 00:03:21.120 will the momentous turn of events bring next? The book 55 00:03:21.159 --> 00:03:24.479 they were featuring this evening is Railroaded Frame for Murder, 56 00:03:24.879 --> 00:03:28.919 Fighting for Justice, with my special guest, PR pro and 57 00:03:29.000 --> 00:03:32.960 author Christopher Jossert. Welcome to the program, and thank you 58 00:03:33.080 --> 00:03:36.159 very much for agreeing to this interview. Christopher Jossart. 59 00:03:37.520 --> 00:03:40.159 Yes, Dan, thank you for having me on blog talk radio. 60 00:03:40.199 --> 00:03:43.479 It's a pleasure, Thank you very much. I just got 61 00:03:43.520 --> 00:03:46.199 to make one correction. We're now on spreaker despite that 62 00:03:46.280 --> 00:03:48.159 little blog talk radio at the beginning. 63 00:03:48.199 --> 00:03:50.439 H Yes, no problem, here we go. 64 00:03:50.919 --> 00:03:55.319 Formerly btr so I want to ask you right off, 65 00:03:55.919 --> 00:03:58.599 how did you come to be the author of this 66 00:03:58.840 --> 00:04:02.159 How did you come around to deciding to write this book? 67 00:04:02.199 --> 00:04:05.280 How did you be in a position to write this book? 68 00:04:05.360 --> 00:04:08.919 Railroaded this whole separate story in its own right, Dan, 69 00:04:08.960 --> 00:04:10.439 and I don't want to take up too much time 70 00:04:10.479 --> 00:04:13.319 on it, but it is a rather unique opportunity for me. 71 00:04:13.400 --> 00:04:17.240 It was a divine moment totally so over here in Wisconsin, 72 00:04:17.319 --> 00:04:20.120 I've been a public relations professional for twenty seven years, 73 00:04:20.759 --> 00:04:22.240 do a lot of writing work with a lot of 74 00:04:22.279 --> 00:04:27.000 media long story short. There is a public safety training 75 00:04:27.040 --> 00:04:30.759 center here in Appleton, Wisconsin, probably one of the best 76 00:04:30.879 --> 00:04:33.240 in the nation. It's an eighty acre facility that trains 77 00:04:33.319 --> 00:04:36.680 the FBI, the Department of Justice, and so forth. There 78 00:04:36.759 --> 00:04:39.759 was a crime Writer's Academy that was held here in 79 00:04:39.839 --> 00:04:43.279 two thousand and fifteen, which was pretty cool. We had 80 00:04:43.319 --> 00:04:45.720 a bunch of probably between one hundred and fifty and 81 00:04:45.720 --> 00:04:50.639 two hundred, mostly fiction crime writers who gathered here in Appleton, Wisconsin, 82 00:04:50.680 --> 00:04:53.240 which is just south of Green Bay for your listeners 83 00:04:53.240 --> 00:04:57.160 in the sense of geography. At that event, Karen Slaughter, 84 00:04:57.279 --> 00:04:58.959 which I'm sure you know very well, one of the 85 00:04:58.959 --> 00:05:02.000 best fiction crime writers around. She happened to beat a 86 00:05:02.079 --> 00:05:05.360 keynote address main speaker at this function. So I get 87 00:05:05.399 --> 00:05:08.560 a call, simply because of my role at the college, 88 00:05:09.160 --> 00:05:13.399 from a publicist of hers in downtown New York simply 89 00:05:13.519 --> 00:05:16.480 asking me if I would help get miss Slaughter on 90 00:05:16.600 --> 00:05:20.079 some regional media to help promote her new book. Well, 91 00:05:20.079 --> 00:05:22.879 it's what I do in my profession anyway, Dan, So 92 00:05:22.920 --> 00:05:26.319 it was a natural fit I met Miss Slaughter. It 93 00:05:26.360 --> 00:05:29.160 was a great experience. Long story short again, I'll just 94 00:05:29.160 --> 00:05:32.519 push fast forward here. As a result of that event, 95 00:05:32.600 --> 00:05:35.560 the publicist in New York called to thank me, and 96 00:05:35.600 --> 00:05:38.680 she asked me the loaded question, is there anything I 97 00:05:38.680 --> 00:05:41.439 can ever do for you? Well, and I've been writing 98 00:05:41.480 --> 00:05:44.560 for many, many years, published articles internationally, I've done a 99 00:05:44.560 --> 00:05:46.120 few books here and there, and I just said, hey, 100 00:05:46.639 --> 00:05:48.560 look in a network with anyone in New York. Do 101 00:05:48.600 --> 00:05:50.560 you have any connections that you can share with me. 102 00:05:51.839 --> 00:05:56.000 Here's the divine moment. This publicist knew a friend who 103 00:05:56.079 --> 00:06:00.000 actually employed in a very small office, the great granddaughter 104 00:06:00.160 --> 00:06:03.000 of a gentleman who was wrongfully convicted of murder in 105 00:06:03.079 --> 00:06:05.639 nineteen sixty eight and was looking for a writer to 106 00:06:05.720 --> 00:06:08.959 tell his story. And that's how the whole thing started. 107 00:06:09.959 --> 00:06:10.680 Pretty amazing. 108 00:06:11.680 --> 00:06:17.560 Yes, absolutely, let's talk about before we get to the 109 00:06:17.720 --> 00:06:21.800 actual date in question. Yes, yes, May twenty second second, 110 00:06:22.000 --> 00:06:26.759 nineteen sixty eight. Take us back to the origins of 111 00:06:26.879 --> 00:06:33.000 Samuel Summer and his background, which is very important to 112 00:06:33.040 --> 00:06:37.720 this story, his work background, his family background, and take 113 00:06:37.839 --> 00:06:40.879 us up to where he meets his soulmate Elaine. 114 00:06:42.399 --> 00:06:48.120 Absolutely, you bet, Dan, And on that note, one of 115 00:06:48.160 --> 00:06:51.560 the things that we discovered in looking into mister Summer's 116 00:06:51.560 --> 00:06:57.560 story was that he was not your typical victim or 117 00:06:57.600 --> 00:07:00.720 accused victim of a hate crime. Touch based on that 118 00:07:00.759 --> 00:07:04.319 a little bit later, with all due respect to people 119 00:07:04.360 --> 00:07:07.639 who have to go through that whole judicial process of wrongdoing, 120 00:07:08.160 --> 00:07:10.439 but a lot of the hate crimes today, Dan, that 121 00:07:10.519 --> 00:07:14.319 are poor trade often shed light on people who live, 122 00:07:14.680 --> 00:07:17.319 you know, underprivileged, underserved lives. I get it. You know, 123 00:07:17.560 --> 00:07:20.199 there may be living in a ghetto area, they may 124 00:07:20.199 --> 00:07:24.639 be targets of unfair you know, judicial practices by law 125 00:07:24.720 --> 00:07:28.079 enforcement and so forth. Mister Summer was completely different. So 126 00:07:28.120 --> 00:07:34.319 he grew up in the South Bronx, hardworking middle class 127 00:07:34.360 --> 00:07:36.600 family that was in the garment industry in New York 128 00:07:36.680 --> 00:07:41.480 in the nineteen forties and fifties Jewish American family. Mister 129 00:07:41.560 --> 00:07:43.839 Summer lands a job when he's sixteen years old in 130 00:07:43.920 --> 00:07:47.879 high school, and the job was so fast paced, so moving, 131 00:07:47.920 --> 00:07:49.800 and put him on a road to success at such 132 00:07:49.800 --> 00:07:51.399 a young age. He ended up dropping out of high 133 00:07:51.439 --> 00:07:56.120 school to deliver meats and various dairy goods around the 134 00:07:56.160 --> 00:07:59.240 big city for a couple of companies. And mind you 135 00:07:59.360 --> 00:08:02.720 back in that time in the nineteen fifties in New York, 136 00:08:03.199 --> 00:08:05.040 there were a lot of new things coming into play. 137 00:08:05.079 --> 00:08:08.480 Delicatessens for one. I know that cats is in downtown 138 00:08:08.519 --> 00:08:10.920 New York, which is still there from the fifties, was 139 00:08:11.519 --> 00:08:13.800 a little part of this book. Mister Summer became an 140 00:08:13.839 --> 00:08:17.720 instant entrepreneur at a young age. What he did by 141 00:08:17.720 --> 00:08:20.079 the time he was even nineteen twenty years old, as 142 00:08:20.120 --> 00:08:22.839 he was already looking at owning his own business. And 143 00:08:22.920 --> 00:08:27.040 he was the first kosher deli to ever be put 144 00:08:27.120 --> 00:08:29.759 up in Long Island, was put up in Comac. It 145 00:08:29.800 --> 00:08:33.000 was called Rosens, and I believe that was put in 146 00:08:33.039 --> 00:08:36.279 the play in nineteen sixty five, while he was growing 147 00:08:36.440 --> 00:08:38.600 a young family with his wife e Lane, who he 148 00:08:38.639 --> 00:08:41.639 happened to meet in an old pool hall setting in 149 00:08:41.679 --> 00:08:44.120 the South Bronx. She came from the quote unquote other 150 00:08:44.159 --> 00:08:46.320 side of the tracks, a little bit more of an 151 00:08:46.360 --> 00:08:49.360 upper class upbringing for Elane, and so they're growing this 152 00:08:49.480 --> 00:08:51.840 large family and just trying to make ends meet, get 153 00:08:51.879 --> 00:08:55.639 getting these businesses off the ground in terms of delicatessens 154 00:08:55.759 --> 00:08:59.639 and the wholesale food services. A little side note too 155 00:08:59.759 --> 00:09:02.159 to his business. When he was in his late twenties, 156 00:09:02.759 --> 00:09:06.840 mister Summer was already introducing catering, if you will, in 157 00:09:06.879 --> 00:09:09.639 the areas of healthcare and education throughout New York and 158 00:09:09.679 --> 00:09:12.039 parts of New Jersey. So by the time he was thirty, 159 00:09:12.679 --> 00:09:15.159 he was making in the neighborhood of one hundred and 160 00:09:17.120 --> 00:09:19.399 he was making what equivalent would be today about one 161 00:09:19.480 --> 00:09:22.039 hundred and fifty to two hundred thousand dollars a year. 162 00:09:22.600 --> 00:09:26.000 He was making that in cash at that time. And 163 00:09:26.039 --> 00:09:28.639 he was a very giving man, very much an innovator. 164 00:09:29.159 --> 00:09:32.360 He loved employing immigrants in the Greater New York area 165 00:09:32.399 --> 00:09:35.080 to give them a shot at the American dream. So 166 00:09:35.159 --> 00:09:38.080 he was really quite a community man, quite a family man, 167 00:09:38.600 --> 00:09:41.759 and very important part of New York City's food service 168 00:09:41.840 --> 00:09:45.120 industry and the economic vitality that was attached to that 169 00:09:45.200 --> 00:09:45.759 at the time. 170 00:09:47.639 --> 00:09:49.799 As you write in the book, you tell us give 171 00:09:49.879 --> 00:09:53.279 us a historic background as well about law enforcement and 172 00:09:53.360 --> 00:09:59.919 how it had been mired in corruption and scandal at 173 00:10:00.080 --> 00:10:03.799 various times. But you also talk about the role of 174 00:10:04.200 --> 00:10:09.799 the mafioso in certain industries in New York and basically 175 00:10:09.879 --> 00:10:14.279 their grasp entered into all kinds of industries like the 176 00:10:14.279 --> 00:10:17.399 garment industry. Tell us a little bit about the reality 177 00:10:17.639 --> 00:10:21.480 of the mafioso in New York and in its effect 178 00:10:21.519 --> 00:10:23.279 in industry at that time. 179 00:10:23.759 --> 00:10:25.879 Yeah, Dan, it was prevalent. You know, back in that 180 00:10:26.000 --> 00:10:30.720 time we're talking again, you know, fifties sixties, when a 181 00:10:30.759 --> 00:10:34.200 lot of different markets were trying to identify themselves in 182 00:10:34.240 --> 00:10:37.279 the Big Apple you mentioned the garment industry, and then 183 00:10:37.320 --> 00:10:40.159 food service kind of took off, and a lot of 184 00:10:40.159 --> 00:10:43.960 things were happening right there in that central hub Manhattan, Brooklyn, 185 00:10:44.080 --> 00:10:46.360 the Bronx, but not a lot was happening out on 186 00:10:46.440 --> 00:10:52.879 Long Island. Mister Summer was able to work closely with 187 00:10:52.960 --> 00:10:56.799 some people down in the Manhattan and the Brooklyn and 188 00:10:56.799 --> 00:10:59.879 Bronx areas to store some of his vehicles that he 189 00:11:00.039 --> 00:11:03.039 he died, to make his deliveries and got kind of 190 00:11:03.080 --> 00:11:06.519 caught up. He admits, he got kind of caught up 191 00:11:06.559 --> 00:11:11.080 in being educated, if you will, by the street very quickly. 192 00:11:11.600 --> 00:11:15.039 When we talk about the mafia back then, the karting 193 00:11:15.080 --> 00:11:19.279 industry better known as the garbage collection industry, was just 194 00:11:19.879 --> 00:11:25.000 booming back then, and mister Summer was a well respected businessman, 195 00:11:25.080 --> 00:11:26.799 and I know that he was approached on a couple 196 00:11:26.879 --> 00:11:32.440 of occasions by members of the mafia to offer some 197 00:11:32.759 --> 00:11:36.399 business planning, business strategy, if you will, to expand the 198 00:11:36.480 --> 00:11:39.960 karting industry to Long Island. Mister Summer said that he 199 00:11:39.960 --> 00:11:43.159 would be more than happy to and he did. He 200 00:11:43.200 --> 00:11:46.480 acquiesced to help with the business expansion, but he had 201 00:11:46.519 --> 00:11:48.399 nothing to do with any of the money. He just 202 00:11:48.440 --> 00:11:51.559 simply didn't want to deal with it. At the same time, 203 00:11:51.600 --> 00:11:54.279 and this is an important part of the story. Mister 204 00:11:54.360 --> 00:11:58.960 Summer's wife, Elaine, her relative, her uncle, a gentleman by 205 00:11:58.960 --> 00:12:02.879 the name of Irving Silver, who is the deceased subject 206 00:12:02.879 --> 00:12:05.679 matter of the book. He was going through some difficult 207 00:12:05.720 --> 00:12:10.360 times in his late fifties. His wife was suffering from 208 00:12:10.399 --> 00:12:13.840 an illness, and he was trying to control his son, 209 00:12:14.000 --> 00:12:17.120 Ronnie Silver, who sadly got caught up in the street, 210 00:12:17.200 --> 00:12:19.759 he got caught up with a lot of the mobster activities. 211 00:12:20.279 --> 00:12:23.720 Gambling was a big problem that he had. Mister Silver 212 00:12:23.919 --> 00:12:25.960 was basically kind of down and out when he lost 213 00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:29.720 his wife Janette in the late sixties. And so Sam, 214 00:12:30.039 --> 00:12:34.480 mister Summer took mister Silver on to help turn his 215 00:12:34.519 --> 00:12:38.720 life around by being involved in the food wholesale business 216 00:12:38.720 --> 00:12:42.440 and the delicatessen businesses that he was enterprising at the time. 217 00:12:42.960 --> 00:12:45.240 And that's an important part of the story because we'll 218 00:12:45.240 --> 00:12:47.639 find out that mister Silver was never really able to 219 00:12:47.720 --> 00:12:50.879 let go of the street that got control of him. 220 00:12:51.440 --> 00:12:53.799 And you know, you mentioned law enforcement, Dan, what's interesting 221 00:12:53.799 --> 00:12:56.519 in the movie Cerproco. I think we all remember that 222 00:12:56.600 --> 00:13:00.399 one portrayed with the corruption of the downtown New York 223 00:13:00.440 --> 00:13:03.200 City police force and certain precincts, played of course by 224 00:13:03.200 --> 00:13:07.000 Al Pacino in the Blockbuster movie. What's interesting about that 225 00:13:07.000 --> 00:13:09.240 that was pretty much going on right around the same 226 00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:13.759 time that the law enforcement is in Suffolk County, which 227 00:13:13.799 --> 00:13:15.480 is one of the two main counties in Long Island, 228 00:13:15.559 --> 00:13:19.679 of course, started to become corrupt. So you know, it's 229 00:13:19.679 --> 00:13:22.879 hard to pinpoint Dan, really when you try to connect 230 00:13:22.919 --> 00:13:28.159 all these dots with the mafioso and the law enforcement. 231 00:13:28.720 --> 00:13:32.200 Who's Greef and who's Palm at the time. But it's 232 00:13:32.279 --> 00:13:37.600 strikingly similar that everything that was portrayed back then was 233 00:13:37.639 --> 00:13:39.600 really happening to mister Summer. He was kind of like 234 00:13:39.679 --> 00:13:41.919 right in the middle of it, and while he was 235 00:13:41.919 --> 00:13:46.240 growing an empire. Sadly he got kidnapped, he got the 236 00:13:46.320 --> 00:13:48.600 rug just pulled completely out from him. And we could 237 00:13:48.639 --> 00:13:49.559 talk about that next. 238 00:13:51.000 --> 00:13:55.320 Well, let's talk about this Harold Goberman and his alias 239 00:13:55.360 --> 00:14:00.480 as Masterson. Let's talk about the circumstances in which Goberman 240 00:14:01.039 --> 00:14:06.759 made Sam and the business that is proposed between them, 241 00:14:07.480 --> 00:14:07.840 and so. 242 00:14:08.159 --> 00:14:13.159 Yeah, absolutely, so, Harold Goberman went through, I went with 243 00:14:13.240 --> 00:14:17.519 an alias name. This is a guy who was let 244 00:14:17.600 --> 00:14:20.759 in or out of prison on numerous occasions, who's convicted felon. 245 00:14:21.519 --> 00:14:25.960 Turns out that he became an informant for the Suffolk 246 00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:29.440 County Police Department. We don't specifically know when, but we 247 00:14:29.480 --> 00:14:32.720 do know based on court documents that it was at 248 00:14:32.840 --> 00:14:35.919 least in sixty eight or sixty nine because it came 249 00:14:36.000 --> 00:14:38.960 through in the Huntly hearing that mister Summer ended up winning. 250 00:14:39.000 --> 00:14:40.960 We could touch base on that in a moment. But 251 00:14:41.240 --> 00:14:47.440 Harold Goberman tragically was caught up not only with the 252 00:14:47.480 --> 00:14:50.519 informant role, whether that was legitimate or illegitimate, but he 253 00:14:50.519 --> 00:14:54.559 had ties to the mafia and he wanted to become 254 00:14:54.600 --> 00:15:00.440 involved with mister Summer's business. And ironically, mister summ goes 255 00:15:00.480 --> 00:15:03.200 on a vacation in spring of sixty eight with his 256 00:15:03.279 --> 00:15:07.080 young family to Florida leaves the business in the hands 257 00:15:07.120 --> 00:15:11.960 of Irving Silver, his relative and mister Summer at the 258 00:15:11.960 --> 00:15:14.679 time looked at it as a wonderful, growing opportunity for 259 00:15:14.720 --> 00:15:17.240 Irving Silver to gain some independence because he had gone 260 00:15:17.279 --> 00:15:19.799 through losing his wife, he had gone through some troubles 261 00:15:19.799 --> 00:15:24.360 on the street with his son. Here's what happens. While 262 00:15:24.799 --> 00:15:30.159 Sam Summer is vacationing in Florida, mister Silver loans Harold 263 00:15:30.200 --> 00:15:36.320 Goberman five thousand dollars of Summer's money without Summer knowing 264 00:15:36.320 --> 00:15:40.559 about it. Two days after he loans Goberman the money, 265 00:15:41.080 --> 00:15:46.960 Goberman pays Silver back, the check bounces. Silver goes to 266 00:15:47.039 --> 00:15:52.039 the second Precinct in Suffolk County to report the incident 267 00:15:52.799 --> 00:15:56.200 on or around May fifteenth of nineteen sixty eight. Two 268 00:15:56.360 --> 00:15:59.840 days later, Silver is found dead in a ditch off 269 00:15:59.840 --> 00:16:04.000 of Wheatley Road near Melville. So that's what started this 270 00:16:04.159 --> 00:16:07.759 whole string of what we call a very odd series 271 00:16:07.840 --> 00:16:11.759 of events that took place during the week of May seventeenth, 272 00:16:11.840 --> 00:16:14.799 nineteen sixty eight, when Silver was found killed. 273 00:16:16.639 --> 00:16:20.240 You say that Sam and his family run a vacation 274 00:16:20.360 --> 00:16:24.240 in Florida. Correct, what does he do? He cuts that vacation, 275 00:16:24.960 --> 00:16:27.440 He cuts it short and leaves his family back there. 276 00:16:28.000 --> 00:16:32.759 Why is that what has Because yep, yep, absolutely. Sam 277 00:16:32.840 --> 00:16:36.440 came back to New York around May fifteenth, two days 278 00:16:36.440 --> 00:16:39.720 before mister Silver was killed. I believe he flew in 279 00:16:39.759 --> 00:16:43.360 that night and he spent the following day with his relative, 280 00:16:43.440 --> 00:16:46.919 his family member, his business partner. Because Silver was nervous 281 00:16:46.960 --> 00:16:50.679 about the whole transaction that he did without Sam's permission 282 00:16:50.759 --> 00:16:53.679 with Thom Goberman. He wanted to come clean and he 283 00:16:53.759 --> 00:16:57.000 felt scared. He felt scared for his life. So Sam 284 00:16:57.080 --> 00:17:00.320 came back and Sam basically assured him, you know what, 285 00:17:01.240 --> 00:17:03.759 this will all work out. Why don't we just resume 286 00:17:05.160 --> 00:17:07.400 work the next day. He had all the intentions of 287 00:17:07.400 --> 00:17:10.680 flying back to Florida and finishing his vacation. So they 288 00:17:10.720 --> 00:17:12.640 were going to resume work for one more day and 289 00:17:12.680 --> 00:17:14.440 just get kind of caught up on things. The morning 290 00:17:14.480 --> 00:17:18.400 of May seventeenth, which was a Friday, and mister Summer 291 00:17:18.519 --> 00:17:22.200 never met I'm sorry, mister Silver never met Sam Summer 292 00:17:22.240 --> 00:17:25.000 for their morning carpool, which is something that they did 293 00:17:25.039 --> 00:17:28.759 as a tradition together. And that's when a few hours 294 00:17:28.839 --> 00:17:33.359 later on that day, Sam discovers from Irving Silver's son, 295 00:17:33.480 --> 00:17:36.119 Ronnie remember the one that had the gambling problems and 296 00:17:36.240 --> 00:17:39.759 was caught up in the mob, that Irving was dead. 297 00:17:42.640 --> 00:17:44.720 What else does he tell him in terms of the 298 00:17:44.720 --> 00:17:46.759 circumstances surrounding his father's death. 299 00:17:47.680 --> 00:17:52.880 Strange, strange set of circumstances. Ronnie Silver actually changes the 300 00:17:52.920 --> 00:17:55.039 story on a couple of occasions, plays a little bit 301 00:17:55.079 --> 00:17:57.319 of what we call cat and mouse game with Sam Summer. 302 00:17:57.359 --> 00:18:01.559 That morning, obviously, Sam is worried his business partner doesn't 303 00:18:01.559 --> 00:18:05.200 show up, so he starts calling his house over near 304 00:18:05.319 --> 00:18:10.599 Kew Gardens. Finally gets a hold of Ronnie Silver, who 305 00:18:11.039 --> 00:18:15.119 at first really didn't know what to tell Sam, and 306 00:18:15.160 --> 00:18:20.000 then he later shortly thereafter discloses to Sam that he 307 00:18:20.039 --> 00:18:21.920 can't find his dad. His dad is missing, and then 308 00:18:21.920 --> 00:18:25.799 he within that same morning they connect again on the 309 00:18:25.839 --> 00:18:30.119 telephone and he says to Sam that his dad is killed. 310 00:18:30.680 --> 00:18:34.319 So just coming from a son, an immediate family member 311 00:18:34.400 --> 00:18:37.799 like that, it was just very very strange when all 312 00:18:37.839 --> 00:18:42.200 that happened. Later on we learned we find out that, 313 00:18:42.880 --> 00:18:46.160 you know, Ronnie Silver takes the stand during a murder 314 00:18:46.200 --> 00:18:49.480 Trialut I mean to get ahead here, and really kind 315 00:18:49.519 --> 00:18:52.240 of more or less wore the hat of a no 316 00:18:52.400 --> 00:18:57.599 contest kind of feedback during that whole trial situation. But 317 00:18:57.720 --> 00:19:00.319 that here's what happened as a result of that whole 318 00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:03.519 kind of fishy disclosure from the Sun about his own father. 319 00:19:04.359 --> 00:19:06.880 That made Sam really just kind of roll up his 320 00:19:06.960 --> 00:19:09.720 sleeves and want to help get to the bottom of 321 00:19:09.720 --> 00:19:12.960 what happened. Now, obviously he knew about Goberman because that's 322 00:19:12.960 --> 00:19:15.839 why he came back from Florida. Silver had told him 323 00:19:15.839 --> 00:19:17.920 about that. So Sam was going to work with the 324 00:19:17.920 --> 00:19:21.960 police to look into Goberman, not in his own That's 325 00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:24.920 an important part of the story. Sam already knew Goberman. 326 00:19:25.000 --> 00:19:28.519 Goberman had done some side jobs for a few of 327 00:19:28.559 --> 00:19:33.079 his businesses leading up to the floridification. He had repaired 328 00:19:33.119 --> 00:19:35.440 some light fixtures here and there. So Sam was just 329 00:19:35.480 --> 00:19:37.279 trying to give the guy a second chance at life 330 00:19:37.359 --> 00:19:41.079 from being in and out of prison based on trusting Silver. 331 00:19:42.200 --> 00:19:44.839 But Sam knew better not to go after Goberman about 332 00:19:44.880 --> 00:19:46.759 this whole Silver thing, so he was trying to work 333 00:19:47.160 --> 00:19:49.559 with the police as to what was going on. And 334 00:19:49.640 --> 00:19:51.480 you know what's really kind of odd from the get 335 00:19:51.519 --> 00:19:54.319 go too, and this all seems to make sense later 336 00:19:54.359 --> 00:19:58.319 on when we find these documents. The police really were 337 00:19:58.359 --> 00:20:01.960 somewhat un sponsor that first when Sam called, but then 338 00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:05.400 on a quick turnaround in the same day, they called 339 00:20:05.440 --> 00:20:08.160 Sam in for questioning. First they wanted him to identify 340 00:20:08.200 --> 00:20:11.880 the body, and then they engage in a series of 341 00:20:11.960 --> 00:20:14.839 questions that kind of insinuated that maybe he was the 342 00:20:14.880 --> 00:20:18.039 one who killed Irving, and Sam really didn't appreciate that. 343 00:20:18.559 --> 00:20:21.400 So there was this kind of this rough, tough attitude 344 00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:24.519 that Suffolk County was looking at Sam right away on 345 00:20:24.559 --> 00:20:27.400 that seventeenth of May when Silver was found, but they 346 00:20:27.400 --> 00:20:30.440 really didn't say he was a suspect. Then there was 347 00:20:30.480 --> 00:20:33.440 a quick turnaround on a funeral due to Jewish tradition, 348 00:20:34.200 --> 00:20:36.079 and then a few days goes by and we get 349 00:20:36.119 --> 00:20:38.480 to a kidnapping that happens on May twenty second. 350 00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:44.160 Let's not forget that. There's a He talks to police 351 00:20:44.200 --> 00:20:46.960 and then says, I will come down and talk to 352 00:20:46.960 --> 00:20:50.680 you later. I have this important thing to do. Yes, 353 00:20:51.720 --> 00:20:53.759 he doesn't do it. Why why? 354 00:20:53.880 --> 00:20:58.359 Yeah, yep, sorry to miss that detail. So what Sam 355 00:20:58.400 --> 00:21:02.599 decided to do He had made an arrangement after the 356 00:21:02.599 --> 00:21:05.799 Suffatunty detectives went and visited him at his office and 357 00:21:05.839 --> 00:21:08.039 he made an arrangement to go back down and meet 358 00:21:08.039 --> 00:21:12.680 with them later that day. Sam did not follow up 359 00:21:12.680 --> 00:21:14.319 on that request because he wanted to do it at 360 00:21:14.359 --> 00:21:17.480 a later time after he told his family out of 361 00:21:17.559 --> 00:21:21.000 respect to e Lane what happened. She had not known 362 00:21:21.039 --> 00:21:23.599 what happened to her relative yet and he wanted to 363 00:21:23.640 --> 00:21:28.400 notify the family first. But then he offered to talk 364 00:21:28.440 --> 00:21:32.200 to the Suffolk County Detectives again at another time, and that, 365 00:21:32.440 --> 00:21:36.960 from a scheduling standpoint of formality, did not happen. So 366 00:21:37.039 --> 00:21:43.640 we're talking about that weekend eighteenth, nineteenth Saturday Sunday twentieth 367 00:21:43.720 --> 00:21:46.680 twenty first, twenty second, which leads up to the next 368 00:21:46.680 --> 00:21:50.039 time he had an encounter with the police. 369 00:21:51.000 --> 00:21:54.160 Let's go to that. You say it's around eight o'clock 370 00:21:54.319 --> 00:21:56.960 May twenty second, nineteen sixty eight. But take us a 371 00:21:57.000 --> 00:21:59.559 little bit before that to the phone call and the 372 00:21:59.680 --> 00:22:03.119 lanes reaction and the conversation, and then who does he 373 00:22:03.160 --> 00:22:05.359 get the call from? And where does he go to meet? 374 00:22:05.480 --> 00:22:07.720 Yeah, the evening of May twenty second. Again, Now we 375 00:22:07.799 --> 00:22:09.759 have to, you know, just kind of do our best here. 376 00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:12.440 This happened so long ago, obviously, and mister Summer's eighty 377 00:22:12.440 --> 00:22:14.799 three today. His wife has to see she passed a 378 00:22:14.799 --> 00:22:17.799 couple of years ago. Let's just try to put ourselves 379 00:22:17.880 --> 00:22:19.720 in the shoes of the emotions that are going on 380 00:22:19.799 --> 00:22:24.039 with this family. Elaine is beside herself, her uncle's gone. 381 00:22:24.160 --> 00:22:28.640 There's no answer. There's not even an investigation into anyone else. 382 00:22:29.279 --> 00:22:33.839 There's no information shared with the Summer or Silver families 383 00:22:34.640 --> 00:22:39.839 since they talked to Sam identifying the body and meeting 384 00:22:39.880 --> 00:22:43.200 them at his office back on the seventeenth. There's really 385 00:22:43.240 --> 00:22:46.799 nothing in between there, Dan, So what's going on? You know, 386 00:22:46.880 --> 00:22:49.000 where are they at? Are they looking at anybody else? 387 00:22:49.160 --> 00:22:53.359 What about Goberman? Well, here's the eerie part. What about Goberman. 388 00:22:53.680 --> 00:22:57.839 It's dinner time, the evening of May twenty second, Wednesday, 389 00:22:57.960 --> 00:23:00.599 nineteen sixty eight, and the Summer household gets a phone 390 00:23:00.599 --> 00:23:05.279 call who is it. It's Harold Goberman and this was 391 00:23:05.319 --> 00:23:09.480 all brought up in that first appellate hearing, which mister 392 00:23:09.480 --> 00:23:11.920 Summer won, So this is not something that was a 393 00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:14.640 he said. She said. He gets a call from Harold 394 00:23:14.640 --> 00:23:18.759 Golberman who says, basically, look, Sam, I got information on 395 00:23:19.039 --> 00:23:22.720 what happened to Irving Silver. Can you meet me tonight. 396 00:23:22.720 --> 00:23:24.480 I'll talk to you bout it over at dunkin Donuts. 397 00:23:24.640 --> 00:23:29.519 This is in Colemac and the dunkin Donuts still stands today. 398 00:23:29.640 --> 00:23:33.359 It's only literally four blocks from Sam's house. At the time, 399 00:23:34.839 --> 00:23:37.839 Sam is shaking, you know, he's when he's talking to 400 00:23:37.880 --> 00:23:44.000 Goberman and he basically runs this by Elaine, who would 401 00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:46.960