WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.120 --> 00:00:09.480 Old you is, folks, It's show Died. People say good 2 00:00:09.519 --> 00:00:11.720 money to see this movie. When they go out to 3 00:00:11.759 --> 00:00:12.160 a theater. 4 00:00:12.439 --> 00:00:16.199 They want clod sodas, pop popcorn, and no monsters in 5 00:00:16.239 --> 00:00:17.199 the protection booth. 6 00:00:17.359 --> 00:00:19.199 Everyone pretend podcasting isn't boring. 7 00:00:20.239 --> 00:00:20.879 Got it off. 8 00:00:39.719 --> 00:00:42.600 I'm chance the gardener in the garden. 9 00:00:43.000 --> 00:00:47.240 Years since I was a child, I worked in this garden. 10 00:00:48.719 --> 00:00:53.960 Then you really are a gardener? Oh yes, can I 11 00:00:54.000 --> 00:00:54.640 ask your name? 12 00:00:57.159 --> 00:01:01.000 Where the gardener? 13 00:01:01.479 --> 00:01:02.679 Mister Chancey Gardner? 14 00:01:02.799 --> 00:01:05.480 Are you related to Basil and Prodita Gardner? 15 00:01:06.040 --> 00:01:11.000 No, I'm not related to Basil and Podita gobbledygook, you. 16 00:01:11.040 --> 00:01:11.760 Know, chawsea. 17 00:01:12.439 --> 00:01:14.879 There's something about you. 18 00:01:14.879 --> 00:01:17.079 You all playing games. 19 00:01:16.680 --> 00:01:19.239 With words to protect yourself. 20 00:01:20.120 --> 00:01:24.319 Stuff with rice pudding between the ears on television. Mister president, 21 00:01:25.239 --> 00:01:32.079 you look much smaller, dam as a jackass. As long 22 00:01:32.120 --> 00:01:37.400 as the roots are not severed, all is well, and 23 00:01:37.599 --> 00:01:40.599 all will be well in the garden. 24 00:01:46.599 --> 00:01:52.159 In the gardener, hm whom mm? 25 00:01:52.200 --> 00:01:52.840 Being there? 26 00:01:53.840 --> 00:01:57.760 The story of the village idiot who convinced almost everybody, 27 00:01:57.799 --> 00:02:01.159 including the President of the United States, that he was 28 00:02:01.200 --> 00:02:06.120 a genius. It's very funny, but scary too because it 29 00:02:06.159 --> 00:02:07.040 could come true. 30 00:02:07.719 --> 00:02:10.800 He's very, very sexy, but. 31 00:02:10.759 --> 00:02:11.800 I think he's brilliant. 32 00:02:12.479 --> 00:02:17.400 It's always somewhat surprising to find men like yourself working 33 00:02:17.439 --> 00:02:20.520 so intimately with the President. Yet somehow I'm managing to 34 00:02:20.560 --> 00:02:26.759 remain relatively unknown. Yes, it is surprising. I can't write. 35 00:02:27.360 --> 00:02:30.919 I heard you speak say languages I can't read at all. 36 00:02:31.800 --> 00:02:33.360 I like to watch d read. 37 00:02:55.759 --> 00:02:58.039 Welcome to the Projection Booth. I'm your host, Mike White 38 00:02:58.080 --> 00:02:59.439 Treno once again is Ms. 39 00:02:59.479 --> 00:03:04.240 Susankuglinska Hey, and let me just say I like to watch. 40 00:03:04.879 --> 00:03:07.479 Also back in the booth is mister Morris Brushtinsky. 41 00:03:08.400 --> 00:03:11.479 There was a season for Everything. In the Projection Booth. 42 00:03:12.080 --> 00:03:15.039 We continue a month of Patreon requests with one from 43 00:03:15.159 --> 00:03:19.800 Jordan nash Hal Ashby's being There, based on the novel 44 00:03:19.800 --> 00:03:23.240 by yearsI Kosinski. It's the story of Chance, played by 45 00:03:23.280 --> 00:03:27.319 Peter Sellers. He's a developmentally delayed man who has lived 46 00:03:27.319 --> 00:03:29.759 in seclusion the ward of an old man who is 47 00:03:29.800 --> 00:03:32.479 recently deceased at the beginning of the film. He soon 48 00:03:32.680 --> 00:03:35.840 finds himself homeless and wandering the streets of Washington, d C. 49 00:03:36.199 --> 00:03:39.000 Where he runs into, or is run into, by Eve 50 00:03:39.080 --> 00:03:42.759 Rand played by Sherley McClain. He becomes mistaken for the 51 00:03:42.800 --> 00:03:46.439 wise Chauncey Gardner and begins mixing in the circles of 52 00:03:46.479 --> 00:03:49.879 some movers and shakers, including the President of the United States, 53 00:03:49.919 --> 00:03:53.120 as played by Jack Warden. We will be spoiling this 54 00:03:53.240 --> 00:03:55.639 film in as much as it can be, so if 55 00:03:55.639 --> 00:03:58.039 you don't want anything ruined, please turn off the podcast 56 00:03:58.080 --> 00:04:00.400 and come back after you've seen it. We will still 57 00:04:00.400 --> 00:04:02.879 be here. So, Morrison, when was the first time you 58 00:04:02.919 --> 00:04:04.759 saw being there and what did you think? 59 00:04:05.719 --> 00:04:08.360 I think it might have been a decade or so 60 00:04:08.759 --> 00:04:11.680 after the film came out. I do have very strong 61 00:04:11.719 --> 00:04:15.240 memories of the film coming out in nineteen seventy nine. 62 00:04:15.280 --> 00:04:17.399 I would have been about thirteen or fourteen years old 63 00:04:17.399 --> 00:04:20.279 at the time. It was one of those films that 64 00:04:20.399 --> 00:04:25.399 I thought, oh, that's too grown up, not interested. At 65 00:04:25.399 --> 00:04:30.120 the time, all I knew Peter Sellers for was the 66 00:04:30.199 --> 00:04:33.120 Pink Panther films, which I saw every time a knew 67 00:04:33.160 --> 00:04:37.199 one came out and the party and later on I 68 00:04:37.240 --> 00:04:39.920 do want to talk a little bit more about Peter 69 00:04:40.040 --> 00:04:44.199 Sellers as an actor, But the time when that came out, 70 00:04:44.240 --> 00:04:46.680 I just thought, Yep, this is not for me. And 71 00:04:46.720 --> 00:04:49.680 then I think shortly after this came out, the fiendish 72 00:04:49.759 --> 00:04:52.800 plot of Doctor Fu Manchu came out, and that was 73 00:04:52.839 --> 00:04:55.600 sort of like a PostScript. Everyone wanted to think that 74 00:04:55.839 --> 00:04:59.319 Being There was the last film that he ever made, 75 00:04:59.360 --> 00:05:03.839 but now, sorry, there's one that's not quite fashionable. And 76 00:05:03.920 --> 00:05:06.959 I've not seen the finish plot of Doctor Fu Manchu. 77 00:05:06.959 --> 00:05:08.839 I have no idea whether it's as bad as people 78 00:05:08.879 --> 00:05:12.519 say it is. But yeah, as I said, I saw 79 00:05:12.560 --> 00:05:15.079 it about a decade after it came out in the 80 00:05:15.319 --> 00:05:19.120 late eighties, maybe the early nineties, on VHS, and at 81 00:05:19.160 --> 00:05:21.360 the time I thought, yeah, this is really really good, 82 00:05:21.519 --> 00:05:28.720 but I still didn't quite get everything. Maybe in the 83 00:05:29.399 --> 00:05:33.279 two thousands I watched it again. I was recording a 84 00:05:33.360 --> 00:05:39.240 podcast with my friend Michael Persh about the album Remote 85 00:05:39.240 --> 00:05:43.360 Control by the banda Tubes and fi Waybill had long 86 00:05:43.439 --> 00:05:47.879 gone and said that Being There was a direct influence 87 00:05:48.120 --> 00:05:51.240 on that album by the Tubes, and I wanted to 88 00:05:51.240 --> 00:05:53.439 see what the connection was, and I think that was 89 00:05:53.480 --> 00:05:56.480 when I got it, and watching it again a couple 90 00:05:56.519 --> 00:06:00.759 of times for this podcast episode, I really get it. 91 00:06:00.800 --> 00:06:05.319 And there's just so much in there that in theory, 92 00:06:05.360 --> 00:06:08.480 we could have like a whole ten part podcast series 93 00:06:08.800 --> 00:06:12.439 just going through every theme that's covered. In this film. 94 00:06:12.519 --> 00:06:16.399 But suffice to say, I've had a journey with this film, 95 00:06:16.439 --> 00:06:22.560 going from apathetic to now being almost obsessed by it. 96 00:06:22.639 --> 00:06:24.560 So yeah, I really love it. Thanks for having me 97 00:06:24.600 --> 00:06:25.360 on for this one. 98 00:06:25.839 --> 00:06:26.800 And how about you, Susan. 99 00:06:27.519 --> 00:06:29.399 We're we're on the same agent. So I was a kid, 100 00:06:29.399 --> 00:06:32.279 there were so many amazing like kid movies and seventy nine, Like, 101 00:06:32.319 --> 00:06:34.240 there's no way I would have you know, been drawn 102 00:06:34.279 --> 00:06:35.600 to that. I remember the art, you know, I can 103 00:06:35.639 --> 00:06:37.879 remember the posters and that kind of thing. But then 104 00:06:38.040 --> 00:06:39.879 in the same thing where I'm sure the first time 105 00:06:39.920 --> 00:06:43.120 I saw it was during the heyday of VHS video rental, 106 00:06:43.199 --> 00:06:44.839 you know, when when you're in college and you're like 107 00:06:44.879 --> 00:06:46.319 catching up on all this stuff you didn't see when 108 00:06:46.319 --> 00:06:48.079 you're a kid. And I would have been too, Like 109 00:06:48.160 --> 00:06:50.360 I loved Peter Sellers as a kid in the Pink 110 00:06:50.399 --> 00:06:52.920 Panther movies. That was like huge for me, and so 111 00:06:53.720 --> 00:06:55.120 it would have been like a real you know, like 112 00:06:55.199 --> 00:06:57.639 I don't quite remember, I know, you know it. It 113 00:06:57.639 --> 00:07:00.759 would have been like just a recontextualization of Peter for me. 114 00:07:00.920 --> 00:07:04.879 And I love psychological portraits. So but I, you know, 115 00:07:05.000 --> 00:07:07.040 really kind of didn't think about it for a long 116 00:07:07.079 --> 00:07:10.560 time and only recently kind of deep dive, really deep 117 00:07:10.560 --> 00:07:12.120 dived into it over the last few years, and I 118 00:07:12.160 --> 00:07:14.399 had done a discussion of it on a different thing 119 00:07:14.519 --> 00:07:17.319 with cartoonist Joe Dator, who's a big Peter Sellers fan, 120 00:07:17.360 --> 00:07:20.600 and I'm kind of really like, you know, just sort 121 00:07:20.600 --> 00:07:22.959 of I was sort of embarrassed I hadn't kind of 122 00:07:23.000 --> 00:07:24.920 like hadn't stuck with me as much as I thought 123 00:07:24.920 --> 00:07:27.000 it should, because I really, like I said, I love 124 00:07:27.000 --> 00:07:30.519 psychological portraits of really unusual people, and it's just you know, 125 00:07:30.600 --> 00:07:33.560 it's a masterpiece as far as that goes. And Yeah, 126 00:07:33.600 --> 00:07:36.199 I'm thrilled to be getting back to it. 127 00:07:37.040 --> 00:07:39.360 My parents took me to see this. I don't think 128 00:07:39.399 --> 00:07:41.680 they took me to see this. I was with them 129 00:07:41.720 --> 00:07:44.519 when they went to see this. How about that. So 130 00:07:44.680 --> 00:07:47.079 as I'm rewatching this movie the other night and we 131 00:07:47.160 --> 00:07:50.199 get to the masturbation scene, which I completely had forgotten 132 00:07:50.319 --> 00:07:54.240 because I saw this when I was seven years old. 133 00:07:55.000 --> 00:07:57.959 I didn't get it then, and even watching it now, 134 00:07:58.000 --> 00:08:00.000 I'm like, Okay, I can see why I didn't get it, 135 00:08:00.079 --> 00:08:03.920 because it's not really explicit, no crotch shots or anything 136 00:08:04.000 --> 00:08:05.879 like that. But I'm like, oh, okay, but I do 137 00:08:05.959 --> 00:08:09.920 remember just thinking what an unusual role for Peter Sellers, Because, 138 00:08:10.079 --> 00:08:13.519 like y'all, I grew up watching those Pink Panther movies. 139 00:08:14.560 --> 00:08:18.439 I'm more connected with Peter Sellers. When this is going 140 00:08:18.519 --> 00:08:21.720 to sound really bad, when he was in Yellow Face, 141 00:08:22.040 --> 00:08:24.759 not for the fiendish plot of Doctor Fu Manchu, but 142 00:08:25.079 --> 00:08:27.759 for Murder by Death, I really liked him in that. 143 00:08:28.439 --> 00:08:32.559 I really just enjoyed that movie. I did enjoy the 144 00:08:32.879 --> 00:08:35.440 Pink Panther films, but I do remember it being a 145 00:08:35.600 --> 00:08:40.200 case of diminishing returns. Especially wasn't there one where David 146 00:08:40.279 --> 00:08:43.559 Niven was in it? And he died midway through, and 147 00:08:43.679 --> 00:08:47.200 so Rich Little ended up doing David Niven's voice for 148 00:08:47.320 --> 00:08:51.080 the entire film. So yeah, it was. It was a strange, 149 00:08:51.159 --> 00:08:56.720 strange series of movies. But yeah, rewatching this movie, I 150 00:08:56.759 --> 00:09:01.200 really connected with it. I enjoyed listening to book. I 151 00:09:01.399 --> 00:09:04.840 love the differences that are between the book and the movie. 152 00:09:05.080 --> 00:09:09.240 I read the Aaron Hunter book about the progression of 153 00:09:09.279 --> 00:09:12.759 the screenplays, and that was fascinating as well, especially that 154 00:09:13.279 --> 00:09:16.519 the end of the movie wasn't in any of the screenplays, 155 00:09:16.600 --> 00:09:18.919 and it sounds like Ashby kind of came up with 156 00:09:18.960 --> 00:09:21.559 it not necessarily on the spot because they had to 157 00:09:21.559 --> 00:09:23.399 do a lot of prep work for it, but it 158 00:09:23.480 --> 00:09:26.480 wasn't something that had been planned out as much as 159 00:09:26.559 --> 00:09:31.120 the screenplays had. So yeah, I find this really fascinating 160 00:09:31.279 --> 00:09:35.279 and years of Kaczinski is a really interesting dude as well. 161 00:09:35.360 --> 00:09:38.279 I never really got into his work and just to 162 00:09:38.480 --> 00:09:41.120 find out more about him as a person, And it 163 00:09:41.159 --> 00:09:44.759 was just such a great confluence of events where you've got, 164 00:09:44.879 --> 00:09:49.200 you know, his book. Peter Sellers immediately glommed on to 165 00:09:49.360 --> 00:09:52.440 Chauncey Gardner. He was just like I am, This character 166 00:09:52.720 --> 00:09:56.840 tried for years to get made. He loved Harold and 167 00:09:56.960 --> 00:10:00.679 Maud and wanted Ashby to direct it. We didn't have 168 00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:03.799 the clout until after Coming Home came out, and then 169 00:10:03.840 --> 00:10:06.279 he was finally able to get this project off the ground. 170 00:10:06.879 --> 00:10:09.600 And according to pretty much everything I've read, it's like 171 00:10:09.759 --> 00:10:14.080 the last great, great, great great hal Ashby film. I mean, 172 00:10:14.240 --> 00:10:18.039 he made some other things afterwards, but he was not 173 00:10:18.120 --> 00:10:22.679 necessarily firing on all cylinders afterwards. And this was, you know, 174 00:10:23.000 --> 00:10:26.759 almost Peter Seller's last role, and he would pass away 175 00:10:26.759 --> 00:10:31.879 shortly after this. And I think Kazinsky, well, Kazinsky ended 176 00:10:31.919 --> 00:10:35.320 up committing suicide. More movies have been made out of 177 00:10:35.360 --> 00:10:37.960 his works, like Painted Bird from a few years ago, 178 00:10:38.600 --> 00:10:41.639 which I missed, but at the same time it sounds 179 00:10:41.679 --> 00:10:44.080 pretty harrowing, so I'm not really like, oh, let's go 180 00:10:44.159 --> 00:10:47.080 watch Painted Bird. But yeah, to have all of these 181 00:10:47.159 --> 00:10:50.519 elements come together with this level of talent, I mean, 182 00:10:50.879 --> 00:10:55.000 and it just hits every single thing that I like 183 00:10:55.039 --> 00:10:56.200 about film. 184 00:10:56.480 --> 00:11:00.240 Yeah, this is an example of really a budget things yeah, 185 00:11:00.360 --> 00:11:03.559 magically coming together. Because the book is good, but it's 186 00:11:03.559 --> 00:11:05.519 not amazing, you know, and it's I think a lot 187 00:11:05.519 --> 00:11:08.000 of people agree with that. It's it's an interesting idea 188 00:11:08.039 --> 00:11:10.080 and it's something you know that you know a lot 189 00:11:10.080 --> 00:11:12.360 of people think he kind of lifted from something else, 190 00:11:12.399 --> 00:11:14.200 but you know, it's an internal story like this sort 191 00:11:14.240 --> 00:11:17.080 of idiot rising. It's a good book. It's I shouldn't 192 00:11:17.080 --> 00:11:18.600 say it's you know, it's like a novella. It's a 193 00:11:18.679 --> 00:11:21.600 very easy read. I recommend everybody read it, actually, but 194 00:11:21.600 --> 00:11:23.879 the movie is way way, way better. And and then 195 00:11:23.879 --> 00:11:25.759 when you look at yeah, the evolition of the scripts 196 00:11:25.759 --> 00:11:29.600 and then what Peter Sellers brought to it, like nobody 197 00:11:29.600 --> 00:11:31.200 else could have brought to it, you know. So it's 198 00:11:31.279 --> 00:11:33.080 just like you just would have had a completely different 199 00:11:33.080 --> 00:11:35.399 movie if anybody on the planet did it, you know, 200 00:11:35.519 --> 00:11:39.679 besides Peter Sellers. So again, yeah, just magical, perfect, perfect 201 00:11:39.840 --> 00:11:44.080 combination of things that just by themselves was were great, 202 00:11:44.159 --> 00:11:47.039 but together it makes it a masterpiece, like a real masterpiece. 203 00:11:47.799 --> 00:11:50.039 One of the things that I thought was interesting though 204 00:11:50.080 --> 00:11:54.960 about Yozi Kazynski's script was he wanted to include some 205 00:11:55.120 --> 00:11:58.799 elements which weren't in the book. No problem, because that 206 00:11:58.879 --> 00:12:02.120 often happens by I think part of what makes the 207 00:12:02.159 --> 00:12:06.840 final film so great is that subtlety. There's nothing being 208 00:12:07.720 --> 00:12:10.840 really forced down your throat. It's like, here's a story, 209 00:12:11.720 --> 00:12:15.799 this is this character, the characters how they react to him, 210 00:12:16.200 --> 00:12:20.759 and it's all very subtle. And Yerzy Kazinsky wanted to 211 00:12:20.840 --> 00:12:27.799 include scenes of civil unrest and homeless protests and a 212 00:12:28.039 --> 00:12:33.720 stronger emphasis on the shady financiers who want to rule 213 00:12:33.759 --> 00:12:35.639 the country as it were, you know, like what we 214 00:12:35.679 --> 00:12:39.759 see in that final scene towards the end where they're discussing, well, 215 00:12:39.799 --> 00:12:42.320 the only way we're going to maintain the presidents that 216 00:12:42.360 --> 00:12:45.200 we want is if we get Chauncey Gardner to be 217 00:12:45.279 --> 00:12:48.320 the one with that greater emphasis. You sort of think well, 218 00:12:48.799 --> 00:12:51.480 coming back to your points, Susan, I actually sort of 219 00:12:51.519 --> 00:12:54.519 think that the book is rather good. It's just a 220 00:12:54.519 --> 00:12:58.399 different beast maybe to the film, but it maintains the 221 00:12:58.480 --> 00:13:03.759 subtlety that the film has and that Peter Sellers provides 222 00:13:03.840 --> 00:13:06.759 in his role as Chance the Gardener, and I just 223 00:13:06.799 --> 00:13:09.759 sort of found it really amazing that he was prepared 224 00:13:09.879 --> 00:13:13.879 for whatever political points he wanted to make in the 225 00:13:13.919 --> 00:13:17.039 film with extra stuff that was just to say, I 226 00:13:17.080 --> 00:13:19.879 think the audience is not smart enough to get the 227 00:13:19.960 --> 00:13:26.159 subtlety of hal Ashby's and Robert Jones' a Robert Jones's 228 00:13:26.159 --> 00:13:29.600 script in hal Ashby's direction, let's put this stuff in. 229 00:13:29.919 --> 00:13:34.000 But thank goodness that Robert Jones said, no, not happening 230 00:13:34.120 --> 00:13:36.799 like that, We're going to be more faithful to your book. 231 00:13:37.039 --> 00:13:38.159 I really like that about it. 232 00:13:38.679 --> 00:13:41.879 Yeah, because even in the novella, there's stuff towards the 233 00:13:42.000 --> 00:13:44.919 end where you do get some of the financiers, but 234 00:13:44.960 --> 00:13:47.240 there's a lot more when it comes to the Russians 235 00:13:47.519 --> 00:13:50.840 and the American government trying to find out who Chauncey 236 00:13:50.919 --> 00:13:53.360 Gardener is at the same time that the Russian government 237 00:13:53.440 --> 00:13:55.960 is trying to find out who Chauncey Gardener is because 238 00:13:56.360 --> 00:13:59.759 the president in this movie, the President quotes Gardner and 239 00:14:00.519 --> 00:14:04.120 jettison's him into the spotlight, and then he goes onto 240 00:14:04.159 --> 00:14:07.600 television and that just keeps he keeps going up and 241 00:14:07.679 --> 00:14:11.639 up and up and up, and right around that same 242 00:14:12.159 --> 00:14:16.679 time that the government is looking into him. The Russian 243 00:14:16.960 --> 00:14:19.440 because we have the Russian ambassador in this, this whole 244 00:14:19.519 --> 00:14:21.879 thing about you know, we're so close, yes, look our 245 00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:25.960 chairs are almost touching. That goes off into a whole 246 00:14:26.159 --> 00:14:29.799 other direction, and you get the Russians also trying to 247 00:14:30.000 --> 00:14:33.480 figure out what's going on. You don't really get even 248 00:14:33.480 --> 00:14:36.600 though Thomas Franklin I think it is the David Clinton character. 249 00:14:36.960 --> 00:14:39.559 He shows up a few times in the story, but 250 00:14:39.639 --> 00:14:43.919 he really doesn't connect to the story again. And then 251 00:14:43.960 --> 00:14:47.639 the Richard Deiser character, the doctor, he's not even in 252 00:14:47.679 --> 00:14:51.559 the novella. So Yeah, the decisions that they made, I 253 00:14:51.600 --> 00:14:55.759 thought were very very smart, and also that they were 254 00:14:56.000 --> 00:14:58.879 working in more of the racial stuff, which I've found 255 00:14:58.879 --> 00:15:01.120 to be very interesting, especially when you look at something 256 00:15:01.159 --> 00:15:04.600 like hal Ashby's The Landlord, which really puts a fine 257 00:15:04.639 --> 00:15:08.480 point on the disparity between black and white. And even 258 00:15:08.519 --> 00:15:11.080 in this when Chauncey's out in the world for the 259 00:15:11.120 --> 00:15:15.480 first time. Even before he meets Raphael's enemy. You get 260 00:15:15.480 --> 00:15:19.639 that great graffiti on the wall that says American shit 261 00:15:19.720 --> 00:15:22.399 because the white man's got a god complex. And then 262 00:15:22.519 --> 00:15:25.120 later on you hear from Louise and she starts talking 263 00:15:25.120 --> 00:15:27.080 about the white man. It's just like, all you have 264 00:15:27.120 --> 00:15:29.000 to be is white in this country and look at 265 00:15:29.240 --> 00:15:32.320 you know, the success that gets thrust upon you. I'm like, 266 00:15:32.480 --> 00:15:36.600 that's really poignant stuff. And that was found nowhere in 267 00:15:36.679 --> 00:15:37.799 the Kazinski stuff. 268 00:15:38.720 --> 00:15:41.919 That's the one part of the film where they decide, right, okay, 269 00:15:42.200 --> 00:15:44.720 we have a point to make here. Let's dispense with 270 00:15:44.759 --> 00:15:47.759 the subtlety. We really have to make that point, not 271 00:15:47.919 --> 00:15:51.399 just with that speech that Louise makes in that home 272 00:15:51.519 --> 00:15:55.000 that she's visiting or is in later on the film, 273 00:15:55.320 --> 00:15:59.200 and not only just on the graffiti on the walls, 274 00:15:59.440 --> 00:16:03.559 but also so on that moment just where Chauncey actually 275 00:16:03.639 --> 00:16:06.679 leaves the house, because all the time that he's in 276 00:16:06.679 --> 00:16:08.279 the house at the beginning of the film, and I 277 00:16:08.679 --> 00:16:10.440 know we're going to sort of speak a little bit 278 00:16:10.440 --> 00:16:13.039 more about that, but that moment that he leaves the 279 00:16:13.039 --> 00:16:16.399 house and we hear the dear Dato version of also 280 00:16:16.399 --> 00:16:20.039 Sprague Zarathustra the two thousand and one thing. We see 281 00:16:20.120 --> 00:16:25.159 that it's urban decay. We got houses destroyed, we've got 282 00:16:25.279 --> 00:16:28.720 cars destroyed, we've got homeless people, and all this time 283 00:16:28.759 --> 00:16:34.919 he's been isolated in this one, if not necessarily luxurious 284 00:16:34.960 --> 00:16:38.000 house the way that the Rams House is, but it's 285 00:16:38.080 --> 00:16:43.799 comfortable and he's led a comfortable life living there in 286 00:16:43.840 --> 00:16:47.679 these four walls with no idea as to what's outside 287 00:16:47.720 --> 00:16:51.440 that front door. And it also brought me to mind 288 00:16:51.519 --> 00:16:55.159 a little bit of another film that we covered on 289 00:16:55.200 --> 00:16:58.559 the show Mike, that was The Amiga Man. So whereas 290 00:16:59.440 --> 00:17:03.639 Neville played by Charlton Heston, is determined he's going to 291 00:17:03.679 --> 00:17:07.519 live in the luxury that he wants, while all around 292 00:17:07.559 --> 00:17:11.079 him is just an absolute waste slamp, and we never 293 00:17:11.119 --> 00:17:14.960 find anything out about the old Man, as he's called 294 00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:19.519 in the film, But why has he stayed where he's stayed? 295 00:17:19.599 --> 00:17:21.920 He's determined he's going to stay in this one place, 296 00:17:22.119 --> 00:17:26.680 despite the fact that all around him is crumbling down. 297 00:17:26.759 --> 00:17:29.400 And maybe he's a part of that, don't know, But 298 00:17:30.039 --> 00:17:32.039 I just found that an interesting parallel. 299 00:17:32.799 --> 00:17:35.359 Yeah, again, it's just a great progression because the book 300 00:17:35.440 --> 00:17:37.359 is like, like you said, it's a late touch. You know, 301 00:17:37.359 --> 00:17:39.200 you're just zipping through this story and you kind of 302 00:17:39.200 --> 00:17:41.559 get the idea, a sketch of this person, and then 303 00:17:41.599 --> 00:17:43.799 you look at the like the Kazinski script that he 304 00:17:43.880 --> 00:17:46.839 had written, and he really seems more interested in what's 305 00:17:46.839 --> 00:17:50.119 going on around the character of Chance like that, like 306 00:17:50.200 --> 00:17:53.000 it's a little more about this, like the building up 307 00:17:53.039 --> 00:17:55.000 of who he is by the people around him, and 308 00:17:55.039 --> 00:17:58.240 he's just the cipher in the middle. And clearly they 309 00:17:58.240 --> 00:18:00.480 took it to the next step, which was part which 310 00:18:00.519 --> 00:18:03.039 is like, let's center this much more on Chance, so 311 00:18:03.039 --> 00:18:04.960 we're seeing it more through his eyes, you know what 312 00:18:05.000 --> 00:18:06.559 I mean. And it's just like the people are a 313 00:18:06.599 --> 00:18:09.799 little more peripheral, and that, you know, that worked really well, 314 00:18:09.839 --> 00:18:12.279 and that's how you could have that wonderful opening where 315 00:18:12.319 --> 00:18:15.240 he's just walking and you're walking. You're you're walking out 316 00:18:15.279 --> 00:18:17.119 into the world with him, going like, how is he 317 00:18:17.160 --> 00:18:18.799 going to take all this in? You know, just taking 318 00:18:18.839 --> 00:18:21.160 in this this You don't expect it, of course, because 319 00:18:21.160 --> 00:18:24.000 you're in this kind of this rich little house, and 320 00:18:24.039 --> 00:18:25.880 then you walk out and it's completely what you don't 321 00:18:25.880 --> 00:18:27.519 think it is, and so you're just seeing all this 322 00:18:27.720 --> 00:18:29.799 new stuff through his eyes and what the world is 323 00:18:29.839 --> 00:18:32.240 really like. And yeah, and that they layered it with 324 00:18:32.279 --> 00:18:35.359 this this racial layer. There's not a there's not a 325 00:18:35.440 --> 00:18:37.640 drop of that in the book. And it's just a 326 00:18:37.680 --> 00:18:40.319 really really good choice to layer that on top and 327 00:18:40.359 --> 00:18:42.240 make it a lot more of a you know, like 328 00:18:42.279 --> 00:18:45.279 a substantive point, you know, all together. 329 00:18:45.920 --> 00:18:49.599 Yeah, because Louise isn't even in the novella. She's she 330 00:18:49.799 --> 00:18:51.839 was there before, but now he's got more of a 331 00:18:51.880 --> 00:18:55.119 European maid that lives at the house that Chance really 332 00:18:55.119 --> 00:18:58.119 doesn't connect with. He talks about and this is his words, 333 00:18:58.160 --> 00:19:00.680 Black Louise, and he's like, well, black Liue, Louise moved 334 00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:04.279 back to Jamaica and she's down there. And then later 335 00:19:04.319 --> 00:19:06.240 on and the story finds out that she actually died 336 00:19:06.359 --> 00:19:10.279 years before, but he had no connection afterwards. And I 337 00:19:10.319 --> 00:19:13.519 read a very interesting article last night where and this 338 00:19:13.720 --> 00:19:16.480 was very tough for me to get my head around, because, 339 00:19:16.559 --> 00:19:18.359 like I said, I've been living with this movie for 340 00:19:18.400 --> 00:19:21.359 a long time, right since I was fucking seven years old. 341 00:19:21.880 --> 00:19:24.759 And they were saying, you know, if you don't know, 342 00:19:24.960 --> 00:19:27.680 if you walk into this movie cold, like maybe you 343 00:19:27.880 --> 00:19:30.799 just see the posters, you haven't seen the spots. You 344 00:19:30.839 --> 00:19:33.400 don't know anything about this movie, and you start watching it, 345 00:19:33.880 --> 00:19:39.799 you don't know that Chance is developmentally delayed. You watch 346 00:19:39.920 --> 00:19:44.359 him get up in the morning, watching television, going out 347 00:19:44.359 --> 00:19:47.359 to the garden, taking care of things. He's very well dressed, 348 00:19:47.880 --> 00:19:50.240 you know. Louise comes in brings him his food, and 349 00:19:50.279 --> 00:19:55.200 you think maybe he is the master of the house basically, 350 00:19:55.960 --> 00:19:59.440 And it isn't until the story starts to unfold more, 351 00:19:59.519 --> 00:20:02.759 especially when the two lawyers show up after the old 352 00:20:02.799 --> 00:20:05.599 man is dead, that you really start to figure, Oh, 353 00:20:05.799 --> 00:20:09.480 this guy has something going on with him that isn't 354 00:20:09.559 --> 00:20:13.559 quite right. He's not all there. And I found that 355 00:20:13.599 --> 00:20:17.200 to be very fascinating because basically Ashby is playing the 356 00:20:17.240 --> 00:20:21.799 same trick on us as the character will you know, 357 00:20:21.839 --> 00:20:23.720 even though it's not a trick, but we are as 358 00:20:23.799 --> 00:20:28.119 clueless about what Chance is as the people later on 359 00:20:28.240 --> 00:20:29.839 who meet Chauncey Gardner. 360 00:20:30.880 --> 00:20:33.240 Jessic a really quick little clue that I never noticed. 361 00:20:33.240 --> 00:20:35.079 So the very last time I watched it, just last 362 00:20:35.160 --> 00:20:37.880 night or whatever. At the very opening, he's dusting the 363 00:20:38.279 --> 00:20:41.200 limousine and that tire is flat, flat, flat, So it's 364 00:20:41.200 --> 00:20:43.119 like this, yeah, so it's like this old limousine and 365 00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:46.000 nobody's clearly driven it for you know, in a million years, 366 00:20:46.359 --> 00:20:48.240 I never noticed that before. But that's like a clue 367 00:20:48.279 --> 00:20:49.759 of just like, wait, what's going on here? 368 00:20:49.880 --> 00:20:52.559 Yeah, I still haven't seen that. Wow, I might have 369 00:20:52.640 --> 00:20:55.400 to have yet another watch after we finished recording this 370 00:20:56.160 --> 00:21:01.319 one thing that I thought was very deliberate, because you're 371 00:21:01.359 --> 00:21:06.640 talking Mike about Chance being developmentally delayed. There's one moment 372 00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:09.960 in the early scenes where he's watching the television and 373 00:21:10.000 --> 00:21:13.960 he's watching a scene with Sesame Street with Big Bird, 374 00:21:14.359 --> 00:21:16.000 and I think it's Buffy sent Marie. 375 00:21:16.839 --> 00:21:17.079 Now. 376 00:21:17.200 --> 00:21:21.680 They always said that all the characters on Sesame Street 377 00:21:21.720 --> 00:21:25.240 are supposed to be children at various ages, and I 378 00:21:25.240 --> 00:21:28.680 think Big Bird is like three years old. This might 379 00:21:28.720 --> 00:21:32.599 have been making it too obvious, forcing it home too much. 380 00:21:32.640 --> 00:21:37.240 But there was a moment in Sesame Street where Big 381 00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:41.640 Bird does drawings of all his friends on Sesame Street 382 00:21:41.680 --> 00:21:46.519 and he's wanting to give mister Hooper his drawing, but 383 00:21:46.960 --> 00:21:50.079 where's mister Hooper And they're having to explain to him 384 00:21:50.160 --> 00:21:54.000 that he's died, but he doesn't get what does that mean? 385 00:21:54.160 --> 00:21:58.640 What does that mean? And I mean it may have 386 00:21:58.720 --> 00:22:04.480 actually been more appropriate to put that bit into the film, 387 00:22:04.559 --> 00:22:07.240 but that might have been really assuming that the audience 388 00:22:07.319 --> 00:22:13.000 is that's stupid. But putting Big Bird at the point 389 00:22:13.119 --> 00:22:17.000 where the film where Chance is watching the television, I 390 00:22:17.000 --> 00:22:19.039 think was no accident. It's not like, oh, will just 391 00:22:19.079 --> 00:22:21.079 take any bit out of Sesame Street. It had to 392 00:22:21.119 --> 00:22:24.599 be Big Bird because I think that Big Bird, as 393 00:22:24.640 --> 00:22:28.119 a three year old child, is at the same level 394 00:22:28.160 --> 00:22:31.599 of development, maybe though with a whole lot more empathy. 395 00:22:31.640 --> 00:22:34.160 And that's a word I think I'll be using a 396 00:22:34.200 --> 00:22:36.759 bit more in this show. Big Bird has more empathy 397 00:22:36.799 --> 00:22:39.000 than Chance does, but I think they're at the same 398 00:22:39.079 --> 00:22:43.200 stage of their understanding of the world. Big Bird lives 399 00:22:43.200 --> 00:22:46.359 on Sesame Street, nowhere else. That's all he knows. But 400 00:22:47.000 --> 00:22:49.599 well he's three years old. Who knows what happens if 401 00:22:49.599 --> 00:22:51.839 he leaves Sesame Street. Well, I mean he did in 402 00:22:51.880 --> 00:22:53.920 the follow that Bird film, But that's another story. 403 00:22:54.160 --> 00:22:59.400 Big Bird. Don't you remember we told you mister Hooper died. 404 00:23:00.279 --> 00:23:03.680 He's dead? Oh yeah, I remember. 405 00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:06.000 Well I'll give it to him when he comes. 406 00:23:05.799 --> 00:23:07.599 Back, Big Bird. 407 00:23:07.759 --> 00:23:12.119 When people die, they don't come back. 408 00:23:12.799 --> 00:23:25.519 Ever, Well, Big Bird, their dad, they they can't come back. Well, 409 00:23:26.799 --> 00:23:28.200 he won't be the same. 410 00:23:30.799 --> 00:23:31.720 You're right, big Bird. 411 00:23:31.759 --> 00:23:35.400 It's it's it'll never be the same around here with 412 00:23:35.480 --> 00:23:35.799 all of them. 413 00:23:36.400 --> 00:23:42.799 M But you know something, we can all be very 414 00:23:42.799 --> 00:23:46.319 happy that we had a chance to be with him. 415 00:23:46.440 --> 00:23:46.839 It's no. 416 00:23:48.519 --> 00:23:50.440 And to love him a lot when he was here. 417 00:23:51.160 --> 00:23:57.519 Yeah, you know, I'm gonna miss you, mister Looper. 418 00:23:58.559 --> 00:24:01.920 Pat's Hooper, Big Bird. 419 00:24:03.839 --> 00:24:07.400 The Chance lives basically in a walled garden, you know. 420 00:24:07.559 --> 00:24:10.160 And I know that there was at least one reviewer 421 00:24:10.200 --> 00:24:12.599 who kind of compared it to Candide with the whole 422 00:24:12.640 --> 00:24:15.880 gardener idea and stuff, and I'm like, okay, yeah, that works. 423 00:24:16.200 --> 00:24:20.519 Another writer compared Chauncey to Our Chance to the mc 424 00:24:20.559 --> 00:24:24.319 greek painting, you know, the man with the bowler hat 425 00:24:24.359 --> 00:24:26.119 and the big apple in front of his face where 426 00:24:26.160 --> 00:24:28.200 you don't know the man, and like, it's that whole 427 00:24:28.240 --> 00:24:32.119 cipher thing, right, And I just I really appreciate that 428 00:24:32.480 --> 00:24:36.200 this movie is so open to interpretation like that. But yeah, 429 00:24:36.240 --> 00:24:38.200 to go back to your point as far as God, 430 00:24:38.240 --> 00:24:41.480 when mister Hooper died, it just devastated me as a 431 00:24:41.519 --> 00:24:46.799 young person. And yes, Chance has no idea really about 432 00:24:47.000 --> 00:24:51.359 death when this movie opens, and that's the growth of 433 00:24:51.400 --> 00:24:54.920 the character for me, is that when he goes in 434 00:24:54.920 --> 00:24:56.680 front of it, and I know we're jumping all over 435 00:24:56.720 --> 00:24:59.240 the place, ladies and gentlemen. Really, I hope you've watched 436 00:24:59.240 --> 00:25:01.039 this movie. But when he he goes in front of 437 00:25:01.079 --> 00:25:03.559 the old in front of Ben, and he just says, 438 00:25:03.960 --> 00:25:04.720 are you dying? 439 00:25:04.799 --> 00:25:05.119 Ben? 440 00:25:05.200 --> 00:25:09.240 And just it's a little lacking to your word, more 441 00:25:09.279 --> 00:25:12.039 as a little lacking in empathy. But at the same time, 442 00:25:12.079 --> 00:25:15.119 it's just so direct and so simple. And I think 443 00:25:15.119 --> 00:25:17.799 that Ben actually appreciates that, because I'm sure people have 444 00:25:17.799 --> 00:25:20.160 been pussy footing around him and he's the one who 445 00:25:20.200 --> 00:25:23.000 knows he's dying, and everybody else says, no, no, you'll 446 00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:26.240 get better, You'll get better. And Chauncey's right there, Chances 447 00:25:26.319 --> 00:25:28.680 right there saying you know, are you dying? Ben? Is 448 00:25:28.720 --> 00:25:33.880 this your time? And actually sheds a tear after Ben dies. 449 00:25:33.920 --> 00:25:36.759 And I think he has grown as a person throughout 450 00:25:36.799 --> 00:25:39.960 this movie that he can now understand a little bit more. 451 00:25:40.000 --> 00:25:42.640 I mean, obviously you've seen death on television. He probably 452 00:25:42.680 --> 00:25:46.000 saw I don't remember when mister Hooper died, but he 453 00:25:46.119 --> 00:25:49.519 probably understands it to a point. But to actually have 454 00:25:50.200 --> 00:25:54.559 connection with another human being, and Ben basically becomes that 455 00:25:54.680 --> 00:25:57.319 father figure that who knows what the old man was 456 00:25:57.519 --> 00:26:02.440 like to Chance? And they barely talk about the old 457 00:26:02.440 --> 00:26:04.880 man in the book, and they barely talk about him 458 00:26:04.880 --> 00:26:07.279 in here. So again you get to project all of 459 00:26:07.279 --> 00:26:10.559 these ideas. You're like, well, was he was Chance the 460 00:26:10.640 --> 00:26:13.599 bastard son of the old man? Is that why he 461 00:26:13.720 --> 00:26:16.519 kept them around? Is that why there's no record of 462 00:26:16.599 --> 00:26:20.000 him anywhere in any of the paperwork. He doesn't have 463 00:26:20.039 --> 00:26:23.400 a Social Security card, he's never learned how to drive, 464 00:26:23.519 --> 00:26:27.039 there's no papers. But at the same time, and I know, 465 00:26:27.119 --> 00:26:29.680 we'll talk about the religious implications as we go along, 466 00:26:29.720 --> 00:26:32.359 But at the same time, he's never been to a dentist, 467 00:26:32.799 --> 00:26:35.759 he's never seen a doctor. He says, he's never been sick. 468 00:26:36.039 --> 00:26:38.680 Sounds like he's been in perfect health his entire life. 469 00:26:39.000 --> 00:26:41.559 The only time that he's ever been hurt is coming 470 00:26:41.640 --> 00:26:43.440 up in the next few minutes when he gets backed 471 00:26:43.440 --> 00:26:44.400 into by a car. 472 00:26:45.160 --> 00:26:49.319 It's very mysterious, now, kazinskiscript. He kind of that was 473 00:26:49.359 --> 00:26:51.519 a big mistake, was he came up with his whullbackstory. 474 00:26:51.519 --> 00:26:52.680 He's like, no, no, no, that's bad. 475 00:26:53.240 --> 00:26:55.480 Oh yeah, like a deathbed confession. 476 00:26:55.039 --> 00:26:57.079 Yeah, deathbed. And he was like, oh, I loved your mother, 477 00:26:57.119 --> 00:26:59.039 and it's like, no, no, no, no, this guy's cruel. 478 00:26:59.079 --> 00:27:01.359 He never taught him to he never taught him to write. 479 00:27:01.440 --> 00:27:04.240 He can't even sign his name. He's never left that house. 480 00:27:04.440 --> 00:27:06.799 That's neglect. That is straight up neglect. I mean that 481 00:27:06.839 --> 00:27:09.839 guy should have he should have been rescued from that house. 482 00:27:10.279 --> 00:27:12.480 So clearly, you know, this is part of why he's 483 00:27:12.519 --> 00:27:14.680 It could even, you know, in my imagination, could even 484 00:27:14.720 --> 00:27:16.799 be why he's slow because if a baby or a 485 00:27:16.799 --> 00:27:19.279 little child is not stimulated, you know, it sounds like 486 00:27:19.279 --> 00:27:22.160 the mother died at birth like that seems like very likely, 487 00:27:22.319 --> 00:27:25.720 and that he just was completely neglected by this horrible man. 488 00:27:25.799 --> 00:27:28.480 That's that's like my take from this. But so what 489 00:27:28.599 --> 00:27:31.240 happens is the old man gives them TVs because he's 490 00:27:31.319 --> 00:27:34.359 rich and TV is coming out as he's growing up, 491 00:27:34.400 --> 00:27:36.680 and he buys them every up to date, fancy TV 492 00:27:36.720 --> 00:27:39.079 you could possibly have. So there's a TV in every room, 493 00:27:39.359 --> 00:27:42.279 completely up to date, and that's how he learns every 494 00:27:42.319 --> 00:27:45.720 single solitary thing about life. And he's practicing shaking hands 495 00:27:45.720 --> 00:27:48.319 by watching TV. He's practicing how you back and forth 496 00:27:48.359 --> 00:27:52.000 with human beings by watching TV. And that's what really 497 00:27:52.039 --> 00:27:55.000 makes this movie a magical piece of cinema is these 498 00:27:55.680 --> 00:27:58.000 who the person and I'm forgetting her name? Who picked 499 00:27:58.000 --> 00:28:00.720 out the TV pieces? It was very, very brilliant and 500 00:28:00.839 --> 00:28:04.319 very important piece of this movie. Like that Sesame Street scene. 501 00:28:04.319 --> 00:28:07.960 That music is like so it's so melancholy, it's so 502 00:28:08.160 --> 00:28:10.799 minor key, and it's it's like it adds the sadness 503 00:28:10.799 --> 00:28:12.599 to the scene, even though you know it has nothing 504 00:28:12.599 --> 00:28:15.200 to do with the scene. Or when they're driving into 505 00:28:15.359 --> 00:28:19.160 the Ran mansion and that that you know, the song 506 00:28:19.279 --> 00:28:24.720 that what is that guy's name them Basketball Jones, Yes, 507 00:28:24.799 --> 00:28:28.400 chiechen Chok. It's a it's a novelty song, but weirdly enough, 508 00:28:28.440 --> 00:28:31.720 it's this beautifully poignant song. It's got a cartoon that's 509 00:28:31.799 --> 00:28:34.680 very almost defensive, because it's a depiction kind of in 510 00:28:34.720 --> 00:28:36.880 a style of like schoolhouse rock, but it has like 511 00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:40.880 kind of very older depictions of black people that you know, 512 00:28:40.920 --> 00:28:43.680 we find very offensiven. It's very exaggerated, but so it 513 00:28:43.680 --> 00:28:45.880 has this ugliness to it because of that. But then 514 00:28:45.920 --> 00:28:48.279 this beautiful sad song where this kid is just pleading, 515 00:28:48.759 --> 00:28:51.000 and it adds to that again, So there's this weird 516 00:28:51.079 --> 00:28:54.680 like whimsical there's cartoons there's children's shows, but then there's 517 00:28:54.720 --> 00:28:57.559 this melancholy to those scenes, you know, and even like 518 00:28:57.599 --> 00:29:00.880 mister Rogers playing when Like is visiting him, you know, 519 00:29:00.920 --> 00:29:03.000 there's just a lot of like. It adds a real 520 00:29:03.400 --> 00:29:05.559 real it kind of almost a dark side to the 521 00:29:05.599 --> 00:29:08.640 whole thing, I think. But it's all about him. Just 522 00:29:08.759 --> 00:29:10.960 that's all he knows is TV, and that's why he 523 00:29:10.960 --> 00:29:15.000 carries his flipper around. He's obsessed with TV's he was 524 00:29:15.039 --> 00:29:16.839 his best friend. It was the thing that raised him. 525 00:29:17.400 --> 00:29:19.920 It's the universe that the film has created for itself 526 00:29:19.960 --> 00:29:23.359 and the story has created for itself. But I find 527 00:29:23.400 --> 00:29:29.640 it interesting that maybe Chance doesn't actually know more than 528 00:29:29.880 --> 00:29:33.440 what he does through watching TV, because TV is not 529 00:29:33.680 --> 00:29:40.359 just a window towards watching I don't know, soap operas 530 00:29:40.400 --> 00:29:43.200 and the like, but there's news and there's current affairs 531 00:29:43.240 --> 00:29:47.359 and things like that, which he's obviously not watched. But 532 00:29:47.759 --> 00:29:51.000 for a character who's I don't know, we never find out. 533 00:29:51.039 --> 00:29:54.519 But given to Peter Solla's silver hair, let's presume he's 534 00:29:54.519 --> 00:29:57.599 in his forties or early fifties or something like that, 535 00:29:58.440 --> 00:30:02.599 and he he doesn't have a clue as to what 536 00:30:02.720 --> 00:30:06.880 is happening on in the wider world. He's find it 537 00:30:07.640 --> 00:30:10.680 unusual that he's learning things like how to shake hands 538 00:30:11.480 --> 00:30:15.119 at this late stage in life. While the film has 539 00:30:15.759 --> 00:30:21.039 a lot of really fascinating points to make, but I 540 00:30:21.039 --> 00:30:24.559 do struggle a little bit with the notion that even 541 00:30:24.640 --> 00:30:27.559 through just having the TV as a guide to the world, 542 00:30:27.920 --> 00:30:31.839 that chance isn't a little bit more developed in his 543 00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:35.599 knowledge of the wider world. You know, he's very polite, 544 00:30:36.720 --> 00:30:39.359 but you know, surely in watching TV, he would have 545 00:30:39.400 --> 00:30:43.599 watched situational dramas where there's conflict and there'll be one 546 00:30:44.119 --> 00:30:48.000 nice guy and one bad guy, and he would have 547 00:30:48.039 --> 00:30:51.960 known about it or behavior as well. But that could 548 00:30:52.039 --> 00:30:54.640 be his choice to only be nice. But surely he's 549 00:30:54.640 --> 00:30:58.000 been exposed to more than what we as an audience 550 00:30:58.799 --> 00:31:01.000 are seeing that he's been supposed to, if that makes 551 00:31:01.039 --> 00:31:01.519 any sense. 552 00:31:02.279 --> 00:31:04.160 The movie that I thought of while I was watching 553 00:31:04.240 --> 00:31:07.279 this time, which I obviously hadn't seen when I saw 554 00:31:07.279 --> 00:31:10.319 it in earlier viewings, especially when I was seven, was 555 00:31:10.400 --> 00:31:12.400 the film Bad Boy Bubby, which I saw that you 556 00:31:12.480 --> 00:31:15.400 wrote in the notes as well more as where that 557 00:31:15.599 --> 00:31:19.279 is another film where it's with that one though you 558 00:31:19.319 --> 00:31:22.839 get to see the overprotective parents who are basically trying 559 00:31:22.880 --> 00:31:26.640 to scare the kid into never going outside. You know, 560 00:31:26.720 --> 00:31:30.720 there's there's radiation out there, there's all these terrible things. 561 00:31:30.720 --> 00:31:32.480 I guess it's really it's kind of like dog toothed 562 00:31:32.519 --> 00:31:35.440 as well, where it's like we are keeping you kids 563 00:31:35.519 --> 00:31:39.160 isolated inside this yard, you know, never go outside of 564 00:31:39.200 --> 00:31:41.599 this yard. And it's basically the same thing with Bad 565 00:31:41.640 --> 00:31:44.960 Boy Bubby. But he's just kept in this little windowless 566 00:31:45.039 --> 00:31:48.759 room basically for almost his entire life until his folks 567 00:31:48.920 --> 00:31:50.759 end up dying. I think it is has been a 568 00:31:50.759 --> 00:31:54.039 little bit since I've seen it, and yeah, he knows nothing. 569 00:31:54.119 --> 00:31:57.160 He didn't even have television to raise him. He's completely 570 00:31:57.200 --> 00:31:59.839 clueless about anything, and he's kind of like the wild 571 00:32:00.079 --> 00:32:02.759 and borneo when he goes out on the streets. 572 00:32:03.079 --> 00:32:07.839 I avoided watching that film for many years. And I'm 573 00:32:07.880 --> 00:32:11.640 a huge Rolf to Hear fan. I've watched probably, if 574 00:32:11.680 --> 00:32:16.039 not everything, then eighty of rol to Hear his films. 575 00:32:16.079 --> 00:32:18.279 But the thing that it kept me away from Bad 576 00:32:18.319 --> 00:32:22.920 Boy Bubby was the couple of scenes of cat cruelty. 577 00:32:23.039 --> 00:32:25.960 I thought, no, I can't watch that, but you always 578 00:32:26.000 --> 00:32:27.759 knew what it was about, and thought, all right, we're 579 00:32:27.759 --> 00:32:31.039 talking about being there, I guess I now need to 580 00:32:31.240 --> 00:32:33.720 put on the DVD of that. So, yeah, I watched 581 00:32:33.920 --> 00:32:38.240 Bad Boy Bubby, and yes, you're right. I mean Bobby 582 00:32:38.519 --> 00:32:44.519 and Chance both developmentally delayed, and both take their cues 583 00:32:44.920 --> 00:32:48.119 from what's going on around them as to how they 584 00:32:48.160 --> 00:32:52.160 should behave and things that they say. So the Chance 585 00:32:52.240 --> 00:32:56.319 repeats catchphrases that he's heard on television, shakes hands the 586 00:32:56.359 --> 00:33:01.279 way he's sent them on television. Bobby takes he doesn't 587 00:33:01.319 --> 00:33:04.279 have television, but you know, he goes and gropes women's 588 00:33:04.279 --> 00:33:06.839 breasts because that's what he sees his father do to 589 00:33:06.960 --> 00:33:10.799 his mother. When he first leaves his house after killing 590 00:33:10.839 --> 00:33:13.799 his parents, he's nearly run over by a truck who 591 00:33:14.519 --> 00:33:17.480 tell him to get off the fucking road, and so 592 00:33:18.000 --> 00:33:20.960 he does the same thing to a policeman that approaches. 593 00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:25.599 And it's two very different characters, but neither have a 594 00:33:25.640 --> 00:33:30.400 clue as to what is appropriate to say or do 595 00:33:30.559 --> 00:33:34.000 in any given situation. I think the big difference between 596 00:33:34.240 --> 00:33:39.240 Chance and Bubby is a Chance is passive. He doesn't 597 00:33:39.279 --> 00:33:42.119 know what to say in any situation. People are talking politics, 598 00:33:42.240 --> 00:33:44.279 he doesn't know what that's about. But when they're asking 599 00:33:44.319 --> 00:33:47.720 him for opinion. I'll talk about the but is active 600 00:33:47.799 --> 00:33:50.880 he wage of thirty seven. He throws himself into things. 601 00:33:50.920 --> 00:33:56.480 It's not appropriate necessarily anything that he does, but he's 602 00:33:57.319 --> 00:34:02.200 attacking life with zeal, regardless of whether he finds his 603 00:34:02.200 --> 00:34:05.559 way into a band. He just does so much stuff. 604 00:34:05.559 --> 00:34:08.159 But life is cruel to him. People don't know how 605 00:34:08.159 --> 00:34:10.360 to react to him, just the way that people don't 606 00:34:10.360 --> 00:34:14.880 know how to react to Chance. Whereas Chance has fallen 607 00:34:14.920 --> 00:34:18.800 into a tub of cream, Bobby, for the first two 608 00:34:18.840 --> 00:34:22.440 thirds of the film has fallen into a tub of shit, 609 00:34:23.039 --> 00:34:25.920 if I can use that expression, if things are really 610 00:34:25.920 --> 00:34:29.400 really difficult for him until the latter third of the film. 611 00:34:29.400 --> 00:34:32.480 I won't spoil that because we're not doing that as 612 00:34:32.519 --> 00:34:36.519 a as a topic for this podcast, and I think 613 00:34:36.519 --> 00:34:38.280 people should go off and see that if they haven't. 614 00:34:38.320 --> 00:34:40.000 But I might be the last person left on the 615 00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:42.639 planet who was interested in the film, who hasn't, who 616 00:34:42.719 --> 00:34:45.360 hadn't seen it up until now. So the point of 617 00:34:45.400 --> 00:34:50.960 similarity is two characters who've lived for a stupid amount 618 00:34:51.000 --> 00:34:54.320 of time within four walls and have no idea what's 619 00:34:54.320 --> 00:34:59.559 on the outside. But how they approach the outside is very, 620 00:34:59.639 --> 00:35:02.320 very diff But I still think it would make a 621 00:35:02.440 --> 00:35:04.880 wonderful double bill at a repertory theater for sure. 622 00:35:05.559 --> 00:35:07.159 Getting back to Hill like the Handjesters, you know, I 623 00:35:07.159 --> 00:35:09.400 think he wrote just Chance. I think realized he has 624 00:35:09.440 --> 00:35:11.239 to he has to learn this stuff right now, Like 625 00:35:11.320 --> 00:35:13.960 I this is after the lawyers already came and kicked 626 00:35:14.039 --> 00:35:15.119 him out, and he was like, all right, I need 627 00:35:15.119 --> 00:35:17.000 to learn how to react to the outside world. I 628 00:35:17.039 --> 00:35:18.960 think that's what he was doing there. Let's just talk 629 00:35:18.960 --> 00:35:22.639 about this developmental delay kind of thing, you know, developmental disability, 630 00:35:23.079 --> 00:35:24.840 you know, and a lot of these kinds of movies 631 00:35:25.079 --> 00:35:27.760 they you know, they base it on reality. They do research, 632 00:35:27.800 --> 00:35:30.599 you know, like Gilbert Grape and rain Man, you know, 633 00:35:30.599 --> 00:35:33.559 they studied real people and the actors like really you know, 634 00:35:33.960 --> 00:35:36.320 took in what was what it was like to actually 635 00:35:36.360 --> 00:35:38.800 be a person with whatever it was they were going for. 636 00:35:39.280 --> 00:35:42.039 And here, you know, this is completely detached from reality. 637 00:35:42.119 --> 00:35:47.159 As far as the both Kazinski and Ashby and Sellers, 638 00:35:47.199 --> 00:35:49.039 none of them, this was not you know, they were 639 00:35:49.039 --> 00:35:50.840 not researching this. They were just like coming up with 640 00:35:50.880 --> 00:35:54.880 a character, a simple character. And so it's actually even debatable, 641 00:35:54.920 --> 00:35:56.920 like you know, maybe he was born just fine and 642 00:35:56.960 --> 00:35:59.239 you know, just pure neglect. He just had no input, 643 00:35:59.280 --> 00:36:01.440 no stimulus, you know, blah blah blah. You know, it 644 00:36:01.559 --> 00:36:04.039 really does happen to people. You know, there's some terrible 645 00:36:04.119 --> 00:36:06.320 tragic stories of children who've been raised like that, you know, 646 00:36:06.360 --> 00:36:08.840 and it's generally you actually you know, don't even learn 647 00:36:08.880 --> 00:36:10.519 really to speak well and that kind of thing when 648 00:36:10.519 --> 00:36:11.159 that really happens. 649 00:36:11.159 --> 00:36:14.679 But at least he's not like Nell, for God's sakes. 650 00:36:15.079 --> 00:36:16.599 Yeah, fine on God, and. 651 00:36:16.920 --> 00:36:22.079 To come, Okay, I'm studying developmental psychology, so I can 652 00:36:22.159 --> 00:36:24.440 I can talk about this. But yeah, and I've actually 653 00:36:24.480 --> 00:36:26.760 worked with kids and stuff like that. But this is 654 00:36:26.800 --> 00:36:29.280 not just so the audience knows, because there's always a 655 00:36:29.320 --> 00:36:31.679 lot of chatter around this film like oh, he's autistic, 656 00:36:31.760 --> 00:36:33.960 and you know, he's not. Like I don't see that 657 00:36:34.079 --> 00:36:37.199 at all. And you really shouldn't base any of this on. 658 00:36:37.880 --> 00:36:40.880 This doesn't really meant to resemble anything real necessarily. 659 00:36:40.960 --> 00:36:41.199 You know. 660 00:36:41.239 --> 00:36:44.239 It's he's slow, yeah, but it's you know, as far 661 00:36:44.280 --> 00:36:45.960 as like what I've ever seen, and I've seen a 662 00:36:45.960 --> 00:36:48.719 lot of you know, pretty wide range of delays, it 663 00:36:48.719 --> 00:36:51.679 doesn't really ring true of anything that you actually see. 664 00:36:51.719 --> 00:36:51.880 You know. 665 00:36:52.760 --> 00:36:57.000 It was interesting too, the difference between Kazinski's original chance 666 00:36:57.519 --> 00:37:01.440 and the one that we see here eight, because the 667 00:37:01.559 --> 00:37:05.639 Kazinski original character in the book or the novella was 668 00:37:05.800 --> 00:37:09.599 much younger, and what they say looks like rocks a. 669 00:37:09.679 --> 00:37:12.480 Care grant, Ted Kennedy and carry Grant. It mix between 670 00:37:12.480 --> 00:37:14.320 Ted Kennedy, Yeah, which is really hard to imagine it 671 00:37:14.360 --> 00:37:15.159 after you've seen this film. 672 00:37:15.199 --> 00:37:18.920 Yeah, yeah, definitely, especially growing up with Ted Kennedy on 673 00:37:19.400 --> 00:37:24.960 you know, and I'm like, yeah, yeah, maybe Robert Kennedy senior, 674 00:37:25.119 --> 00:37:28.840 but you know, not not Ted to play this as 675 00:37:28.840 --> 00:37:32.159 an older character gives it a different spin. And also, 676 00:37:33.159 --> 00:37:38.880 the character is completely sexless. He has no desire for 677 00:37:39.039 --> 00:37:43.480 anyone man woman, animal, furniture and nothing like that. And 678 00:37:43.880 --> 00:37:48.239 in the novella he has no physical reaction when Eve 679 00:37:48.400 --> 00:37:52.559 or Ee in the book is groping him, there's no reaction. 680 00:37:52.760 --> 00:37:55.880 It is just completely dead down there, which then kind 681 00:37:55.880 --> 00:37:58.159 of puts a different, you know, take on this whole 682 00:37:58.159 --> 00:38:01.400 thing where it's just like all right, So he he's 683 00:38:01.400 --> 00:38:03.840 not even all there when it comes to his body either. 684 00:38:03.920 --> 00:38:07.280 He's just kind of this blank slate. So it's not 685 00:38:07.320 --> 00:38:09.840 like he's running around like falling in love or whining 686 00:38:09.840 --> 00:38:11.840 the fuck or do any of these things having any 687 00:38:11.840 --> 00:38:16.079 sort of urges or desires. And it's it is interesting 688 00:38:16.159 --> 00:38:19.239 that in the in the novella, he is the he's 689 00:38:19.239 --> 00:38:22.280 supposed to be basically like the young via young man, 690 00:38:22.679 --> 00:38:24.920 and here as an older man, it's like, Okay, well 691 00:38:24.920 --> 00:38:27.280 you don't really expect that from It fits a little 692 00:38:27.280 --> 00:38:29.639 bit better with the character. But at the same time, 693 00:38:29.679 --> 00:38:33.360 it's like the way that Eve the Sherlan Claim character 694 00:38:33.480 --> 00:38:36.559 falls for him, you would think that he was Cary 695 00:38:36.599 --> 00:38:40.360 Grant or you know, somebody just incredibly handsome. I mean, 696 00:38:40.400 --> 00:38:43.440 Peter Seller's just no slouch, but he's in his golden years, 697 00:38:43.559 --> 00:38:47.920 you know. And and she's almost taking Melvin Douglas, who's yes, 698 00:38:48.320 --> 00:38:50.760 much older than Peter Sellers, even though I think they 699 00:38:50.760 --> 00:38:53.039 were both in the war together at the same time 700 00:38:53.239 --> 00:38:55.639 they were in Burma, I want to say. But anyway, 701 00:38:56.239 --> 00:38:59.519 they she's taking, you know, going for like the let's say, 702 00:38:59.519 --> 00:39:02.199 the ninety year old man to the sixty five year 703 00:39:02.199 --> 00:39:04.440 old man, maybe seventy year old man. It's like, yeah, 704 00:39:04.480 --> 00:39:08.239 you're not really trading down too much, so but yeah, 705 00:39:08.400 --> 00:39:12.079 just that lack of sexuality for the character also puts 706 00:39:12.119 --> 00:39:15.440 him on the outside of things and makes him also 707 00:39:15.559 --> 00:39:16.559 more of a cipher. 708 00:39:17.000 --> 00:39:21.039 I thought that it was unusual that Peter Seller's character, 709 00:39:21.119 --> 00:39:23.400 I mean, you've already gone and sort of implied this 710 00:39:23.519 --> 00:39:28.840 both of you, because he's been well abused by never 711 00:39:28.920 --> 00:39:33.199 being exposed to the outside world, so he's delayed in 712 00:39:33.360 --> 00:39:37.320 terms of what he can learn. But I was sort 713 00:39:37.320 --> 00:39:40.440 of thinking, how, really, I mean, doesn't puberty hit all 714 00:39:40.440 --> 00:39:44.920 of us. He's three year old mentally or whatever. But 715 00:39:45.119 --> 00:39:50.960 he's also well before thirteen or fourteen from a physical perspective, 716 00:39:51.000 --> 00:39:53.920 because I mean, I don't really know a hell of 717 00:39:53.960 --> 00:39:57.960 a lot in that regard, but I would have sort 718 00:39:57.960 --> 00:40:02.400 of thought that every person would have some level of 719 00:40:03.119 --> 00:40:07.079 that once the hormones kick in. That would be something 720 00:40:07.159 --> 00:40:10.760 that if Eve is making a play for him, that's 721 00:40:10.800 --> 00:40:14.280 something that at least from a physical perspective, he would understand. 722 00:40:14.880 --> 00:40:19.639 But intuitively. But maybe, I mean, I've never read or 723 00:40:19.760 --> 00:40:22.440 watched The Tin Drum, but I all know. 724 00:40:22.840 --> 00:40:24.719 That's one of my favorite books in the world. 725 00:40:24.960 --> 00:40:27.000 All right, Well, maybe I need to get onto that, 726 00:40:27.079 --> 00:40:30.760 but I know the premise is that the character decides, right, 727 00:40:30.920 --> 00:40:34.480 I'm not going to grow any further, and I just 728 00:40:34.519 --> 00:40:38.480 sort of wonder whether that's the same with chance, you know, 729 00:40:38.519 --> 00:40:41.639 he's maybe he's not consciously decided it, or maybe he 730 00:40:41.719 --> 00:40:46.320 has I don't know, but he's not mentally gone any further. 731 00:40:46.360 --> 00:40:49.639 But he's also not physically developed any further. He's never 732 00:40:49.719 --> 00:40:52.400 hit puberty. He just wants to He just wants to 733 00:40:52.440 --> 00:40:55.840 watch television. And when Eve makes that second play for him, 734 00:40:56.079 --> 00:40:59.320 he's been watching something on television where a man and 735 00:40:59.360 --> 00:41:02.159 a woman are kissing passionately, so things, Oh that's what 736 00:41:02.199 --> 00:41:04.440 she wants, Okay, I'll do that. But he's still watching 737 00:41:04.679 --> 00:41:07.000 the television to see if he's getting it right. Not 738 00:41:07.119 --> 00:41:09.800 because he's passionate for her, but just because, oh, this 739 00:41:09.880 --> 00:41:13.119 is what she wants. I want to make her happy. 740 00:41:12.719 --> 00:41:17.760 And maybe that's actually some level of growth unto itself, 741 00:41:17.920 --> 00:41:21.480 that he wants to keep someone else happy, and that's 742 00:41:21.480 --> 00:41:24.400 a level of kindness. So he's no longer the blank 743 00:41:24.480 --> 00:41:26.880 slate that he was at the beginning of the film. 744 00:41:26.960 --> 00:41:30.519 He knows that she's treated him kindly, and that's something 745 00:41:30.559 --> 00:41:33.440 that he never experienced. He had the I mean, maybe 746 00:41:33.519 --> 00:41:37.239 apart from Louise making him his meals, but we don't 747 00:41:37.320 --> 00:41:41.119 really know what her relationship with him was. She might 748 00:41:41.159 --> 00:41:43.400 have just left the meals and gone on to do 749 00:41:43.440 --> 00:41:48.559 her work. But here he is with people who don't 750 00:41:48.639 --> 00:41:52.760 understand him, and they misinterpret him at every turn, but 751 00:41:52.880 --> 00:41:57.079 they're treating him nicely. So at this stage he understands, Oh, 752 00:41:57.159 --> 00:42:00.760 that's to be reciprocated. So oh she's oh she wants 753 00:42:00.840 --> 00:42:03.039 the case. Oh if that makes her happy, I'll do that. 754 00:42:03.840 --> 00:42:04.039 Yeah. 755 00:42:04.039 --> 00:42:06.920 He's watching the Thomas Crown Affair, I believe, which was 756 00:42:07.119 --> 00:42:08.639 edited by Hal Ashby. 757 00:42:09.079 --> 00:42:10.679 Oh, there you go. 758 00:42:11.519 --> 00:42:14.880 He gives that very nervous laugh when he's talking about 759 00:42:15.000 --> 00:42:17.559 Joe that showed him the pictures of the naked men 760 00:42:17.599 --> 00:42:18.039 and women. 761 00:42:19.199 --> 00:42:26.800 Yes, I remember Joe. He was very fat, had short hair, 762 00:42:27.719 --> 00:42:33.880 and showed me pictures from a funny little book, some pictures, Yes, 763 00:42:34.679 --> 00:42:35.599 the men and women. 764 00:42:40.000 --> 00:42:41.400 Oh. 765 00:42:41.480 --> 00:42:43.519 That seems to be the only time he's ever really 766 00:42:43.519 --> 00:42:47.039 had experience with any sort of stimulus of that, any 767 00:42:47.039 --> 00:42:50.639 sort of pornography. But to your point, like, yeah, had 768 00:42:50.679 --> 00:42:53.800 he been watching different things on television, I think he's 769 00:42:53.880 --> 00:42:58.039 much more comfortable with the children's television because that's much 770 00:42:58.079 --> 00:43:01.440 more of his mental state, because you know, you can 771 00:43:01.480 --> 00:43:04.840 find hot Si Tatsi stuff on TV, but you know, 772 00:43:05.039 --> 00:43:08.760 obviously nothing as hot as what Joe was showing him 773 00:43:08.800 --> 00:43:11.480 when he came to repair the wall all those years ago. 774 00:43:12.239 --> 00:43:16.039 And then when Louise talks about how Chance was cursed 775 00:43:16.039 --> 00:43:19.679 by God. First I thought she was talking about that 776 00:43:19.760 --> 00:43:22.480 he has nothing between his legs basically, or that he's, 777 00:43:22.519 --> 00:43:24.800 you know, mister micro penis. And then it's like, oh, no, 778 00:43:24.880 --> 00:43:26.800 she's talking about the brains. She's talking about up here, 779 00:43:26.920 --> 00:43:30.599 not down here. So okay, Yeah, when she's like railing 780 00:43:30.639 --> 00:43:32.480 against him and just talking about how he's got what 781 00:43:32.599 --> 00:43:33.320 was it mashed. 782 00:43:33.079 --> 00:43:36.800 Potatoes was fitting between his ears? Between the ears? No, 783 00:43:36.920 --> 00:43:39.280 but in the beginning she does, she does allude to 784 00:43:39.320 --> 00:43:41.880 his thingy. And when she's leaving, she says, you need 785 00:43:41.920 --> 00:43:44.239 to find a woman, but you need to find an 786 00:43:44.280 --> 00:43:46.679 older woman because you don't, and she implies it he 787 00:43:46.760 --> 00:43:49.079 is a very small thing, like she does. That's like blatant, 788 00:43:49.440 --> 00:43:54.400 she really does. So that's definitely a thing you ought 789 00:43:54.400 --> 00:44:01.199 to find yourself, a lady, Chance, cass. It ought to 790 00:44:01.239 --> 00:44:05.760 be an old lady like good I you young and 791 00:44:05.880 --> 00:44:12.800 any good not with that little thing of you. She 792 00:44:12.840 --> 00:44:15.280 apparently like maybe knew him when he was young enough 793 00:44:15.280 --> 00:44:16.840 that she would change him. Who knows, but I don't know. 794 00:44:16.840 --> 00:44:18.360 That's what she's saying, but I mean, let me just 795 00:44:18.360 --> 00:44:20.920 say that, like TV back then for people who don't 796 00:44:20.920 --> 00:44:22.800 know who are a little younger than us, you know, 797 00:44:22.840 --> 00:44:24.320 and they make a point of this, I think in 798 00:44:24.400 --> 00:44:26.840 the book or in one of the scripts that they would, 799 00:44:26.920 --> 00:44:28.000 you know, when you came to a love scene, it 800 00:44:28.000 --> 00:44:29.920 would just cut off, like they couldn't show that stuff. 801 00:44:29.960 --> 00:44:31.840 You know, everything was much much and much more censored. 802 00:44:31.880 --> 00:44:34.079 So you could actually be a kid watching TV and 803 00:44:34.079 --> 00:44:36.840 never learn what sex is at all, you know, like 804 00:44:37.119 --> 00:44:39.960 if nobody ever told him, and so yeah, I think, 805 00:44:40.039 --> 00:44:43.519 you know, there's enough of a spectrum of asexuality sexuality 806 00:44:43.519 --> 00:44:44.960 that you know, he could have been on the asexual 807 00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:47.880 side of the spectrum just naturally, and then nobody ever, 808 00:44:48.079 --> 00:44:49.559 you know, he just had, you know, except for that 809 00:44:49.639 --> 00:44:52.039 those magazine pictures that guy showed him, which he kind 810 00:44:52.039 --> 00:44:55.000 of chuckles at. You know, he really had no reason 811 00:44:55.280 --> 00:44:57.599 to kind of like start up the sex drive, I 812 00:44:57.599 --> 00:45:00.360 would think, which is mercifully a good thing probably, you know. 813 00:45:01.039 --> 00:45:03.800 And then I think his first real moment is when 814 00:45:04.840 --> 00:45:08.199 I think he's always reciprocating. He knows the reciprocation game 815 00:45:08.239 --> 00:45:10.880 where you repeat the last thing a person says you know, 816 00:45:10.960 --> 00:45:13.280 you do these these things that make people feel happy 817 00:45:13.320 --> 00:45:15.840 by you know, repeating, But they just said doing what 818 00:45:15.880 --> 00:45:18.199 you see on TV that makes people happy. But it's 819 00:45:18.239 --> 00:45:22.639 the moment when when rand dies or when he says 820 00:45:22.920 --> 00:45:24.360 really it's I think it's when he says, you know, 821 00:45:24.559 --> 00:45:28.039 you're I'm sorry you're sick, which is a really beautiful moment. 822 00:45:28.360 --> 00:45:31.280 I think that's like where you're seeing the character arc 823 00:45:31.400 --> 00:45:34.119 change where you're like, oh, this isn't something he's on TV. 824 00:45:34.239 --> 00:45:34.440 You know. 825 00:45:35.159 --> 00:45:37.599 Yeah, it sounds like the old man didn't spring for cable. 826 00:45:37.760 --> 00:45:41.599 I mean because cable ATV had been around since earlier 827 00:45:41.639 --> 00:45:44.079 in the seventies. I think, I know, it really came 828 00:45:44.119 --> 00:45:47.800 into the forour like in the early eighties, mid eighties, right, 829 00:45:48.880 --> 00:45:51.679 been a little bit before, like at least in my household, 830 00:45:51.719 --> 00:45:54.920 before we got the VCR, we had cable at least 831 00:45:54.960 --> 00:45:57.000 that's how I remember it, and we had on TV 832 00:45:57.199 --> 00:45:59.880 and these kind of things. But even then the movie 833 00:46:00.079 --> 00:46:02.320 channel was like the only one that was showing anything 834 00:46:02.400 --> 00:46:05.599 risque and then eventually like skin him Ax obviously, but 835 00:46:06.159 --> 00:46:08.679 it was difficult to see things and especially you know, 836 00:46:09.000 --> 00:46:12.079 trying to make it make out things during the scrambled channels, 837 00:46:12.119 --> 00:46:14.079 you know what I'm talking about, Like that was my 838 00:46:14.199 --> 00:46:17.360 early exposure to things. I want to say that this 839 00:46:17.400 --> 00:46:20.400 is a stretch because sometimes I think people, especially when 840 00:46:20.400 --> 00:46:23.480 it comes to Stanley Kubrick, people just go fucking crazy 841 00:46:23.480 --> 00:46:26.480 about I mean, see Room thirty, two thirty seven. But 842 00:46:26.960 --> 00:46:32.320 Peter Sellers having worked with Stanley Kubrick pretty often, I 843 00:46:32.320 --> 00:46:36.840 mean with Alita and Doctor Strange Love. And then to 844 00:46:37.000 --> 00:46:41.760 have that disco version of two thousand and one, the 845 00:46:41.840 --> 00:46:45.760 diodato version of also Sprocks Zarah Thrustra to be the 846 00:46:45.800 --> 00:46:49.119 song that plays when he comes out. I swear that 847 00:46:49.119 --> 00:46:52.760 that's a Kubrick reference, especially when he makes it to 848 00:46:52.800 --> 00:46:55.199 the end of the song and he sees himself on 849 00:46:55.320 --> 00:46:59.599 television and there's the whole Moonscape thing. It looks all 850 00:46:59.719 --> 00:47:02.480 like the moon, there's a big moon on one side 851 00:47:02.519 --> 00:47:06.599 and just like, oh okay, and it just feels very 852 00:47:06.719 --> 00:47:09.800 much like that's a real moment for him when he 853 00:47:09.880 --> 00:47:13.679 sees himself on television, that he's been watching television for 854 00:47:13.840 --> 00:47:16.920 all of these years, and to see yourself on that 855 00:47:17.079 --> 00:47:21.239 screen in the TV seller's window, I mean, that's huge. 856 00:47:21.559 --> 00:47:24.559 And I found interesting too that when he gets threatened 857 00:47:24.599 --> 00:47:27.599 by that black gang that that's also in front of 858 00:47:27.639 --> 00:47:31.639 a television store, a much more run down TV store, 859 00:47:31.760 --> 00:47:33.920 and then you know it's like the nicer area I 860 00:47:33.920 --> 00:47:36.000 guess he's in. It must be a nicer area if 861 00:47:36.039 --> 00:47:39.320 Eve is parking there. But yeah, that was a great 862 00:47:39.360 --> 00:47:42.239 moment when he finally sees himself on television and then 863 00:47:42.400 --> 00:47:45.719 there's no nervousness. Of course, you know it's probably not 864 00:47:45.880 --> 00:47:50.159 in his core. But when he goes onto a television program, 865 00:47:50.199 --> 00:47:52.159 he's like, well, I've been on television before. 866 00:47:52.320 --> 00:47:55.440 I'm feeling like such a dummy. Because it's only once 867 00:47:55.480 --> 00:47:59.280 he brought up that expression he sees himself on television 868 00:47:59.280 --> 00:48:01.760 that it hit me later on when he says in 869 00:48:01.800 --> 00:48:06.360 the film, oh, yeah, I've been on television before. I thinking, really, Ah, 870 00:48:06.719 --> 00:48:10.599 of course the play circuit camera, I hadn't. I'm a 871 00:48:10.599 --> 00:48:11.880 bit slow today. 872 00:48:12.599 --> 00:48:15.320 One one hundred percent on the Kubrick reference. I believe 873 00:48:15.320 --> 00:48:17.880 that's a one hundred percent Kubrick reference. And Peter sells 874 00:48:18.000 --> 00:48:20.280 he felt that too. The only he said once the 875 00:48:20.320 --> 00:48:24.280 only two movies he was proud of was This and Strangelove. 876 00:48:24.360 --> 00:48:27.360 Of course he loved Strangelove, he loved he loved Kubrick 877 00:48:27.400 --> 00:48:29.119 I mean, they had a hard time, but he loved it, 878 00:48:29.159 --> 00:48:32.119 you know, he enormous and he was so I think 879 00:48:32.119 --> 00:48:33.000 that's one hundred percent. 880 00:48:33.440 --> 00:48:36.039 I think it was a good thing that they used 881 00:48:36.039 --> 00:48:41.920 the diodato version, which was already in existence for Peter 882 00:48:42.039 --> 00:48:46.480 Sellers coming out of the house and exploring the brave 883 00:48:46.559 --> 00:48:49.760 new universe that is outside of the Old Man's House. 884 00:48:49.920 --> 00:48:54.119 To have done the original orchestral version would have been 885 00:48:54.159 --> 00:48:57.760 seen too much as a pastiche But it's appropriate because 886 00:48:57.760 --> 00:49:02.719 it's a soul funk version and it goes into places 887 00:49:02.719 --> 00:49:07.280 where it sounds almost sinister that it works perfectly for 888 00:49:07.320 --> 00:49:12.280 the environment that he's actually walking into. It makes the 889 00:49:12.320 --> 00:49:16.719 point far better than an orchestral version ever would have. 890 00:49:17.559 --> 00:49:21.880 But yeah, I'd love that use and hugely appropriate. I mean, 891 00:49:21.920 --> 00:49:25.400 I wonder if two thousand and one hadn't existed, or 892 00:49:25.400 --> 00:49:30.039 if he'd use the Blue Danube at the point of 893 00:49:30.079 --> 00:49:34.960 the Star Child and the Dawn of Man instead also 894 00:49:35.000 --> 00:49:38.480 spars Arathustra, whether they would have found a funk version 895 00:49:38.480 --> 00:49:40.519 of the Blue Danube or something like that. But just 896 00:49:40.920 --> 00:49:43.920 such a perfect piece of music and so grateful that 897 00:49:44.440 --> 00:49:46.320 it got made into that version. I think it's a 898 00:49:46.360 --> 00:49:49.199 really really good version of that piece of music. 899 00:49:49.880 --> 00:49:52.039 I don't know what it was about the seventies and 900 00:49:52.079 --> 00:49:56.119 redoing classical music as disco themes. I mean, I'm sure 901 00:49:56.159 --> 00:49:59.719 you guys remember fit the Beethoven koff down Disco Mountain. 902 00:50:00.280 --> 00:50:02.760 You know, like the whole star Zone forty five thing 903 00:50:02.840 --> 00:50:06.559 where they would do disco upbeat versions of classical things. 904 00:50:06.599 --> 00:50:07.559 It was such a. 905 00:50:07.320 --> 00:50:09.239 Star Wars theme song, Star Wars theme song. 906 00:50:09.760 --> 00:50:11.760 Oh yeah, yea thing to do. 907 00:50:11.960 --> 00:50:12.800 Yeah, absolutely. 908 00:50:13.280 --> 00:50:16.480 Now look I don't see the diodato version of also 909 00:50:16.480 --> 00:50:19.920 spras Sertister. That's not disco to me. That's that's funk. 910 00:50:20.159 --> 00:50:23.760 That's a difference. But yeah, look I absolutely applaud that 911 00:50:23.800 --> 00:51:04.559 Walter Murphy of fifth of date Oven not on Disco Mountain. 912 00:51:05.440 --> 00:51:08.480 I might have a little bit more leniency for, but 913 00:51:08.519 --> 00:51:11.360 a fifth of Bethoven and Stars on forty five can 914 00:51:11.480 --> 00:51:17.440 bite my shiny metal. But did Dato doing also Sprung. 915 00:51:17.599 --> 00:51:22.800 It's clever and it's soulful, it's it's funky as hell. 916 00:51:23.400 --> 00:51:25.519 I love it, I really love it well. 917 00:51:25.400 --> 00:51:27.280 And when you think about it too, I mean, Wendy 918 00:51:27.280 --> 00:51:31.559 Carlos Williams was such a pioneer of doing the electronic 919 00:51:31.679 --> 00:51:34.280 versions of the music that she did for. 920 00:51:35.880 --> 00:51:38.840 Absolutely before that she did a whole album of like 921 00:51:38.920 --> 00:51:39.519 Bach or something. 922 00:51:39.599 --> 00:51:41.960 Yeah, she's really switched on bath yeah. 923 00:51:41.840 --> 00:51:43.159 Switched on back. Yeah. Absolutely. 924 00:51:44.000 --> 00:51:46.159 It was like the thing for like Moog and like 925 00:51:46.320 --> 00:51:50.960 electronic pioneers to do classical music in this new form. 926 00:51:51.719 --> 00:51:53.119 Oh yeah, and to meta do. I don't know if 927 00:51:53.119 --> 00:51:55.159 you remember Tomda, but anyway, I always said this stuff 928 00:51:55.199 --> 00:51:57.239 was really cheesy. And you know, in the time, I 929 00:51:57.280 --> 00:51:59.880 love disco. I loved disco, but I did think that's 930 00:52:00.280 --> 00:52:03.239 was really cheesy. But this and yet this, like when 931 00:52:03.239 --> 00:52:05.320 you see this, even if you don't like that, that 932 00:52:05.400 --> 00:52:08.159 whole little movement there, you got to love with how 933 00:52:08.159 --> 00:52:10.199 it works in this film. It works perfectly. It just 934 00:52:10.280 --> 00:52:11.000 works perfectly. 935 00:52:11.599 --> 00:52:13.880 This whole segment of when he leaves the house for 936 00:52:13.920 --> 00:52:16.679 the first time, like I forgot about the things, where 937 00:52:16.719 --> 00:52:19.719 he sees the black lady on the street and he 938 00:52:19.800 --> 00:52:24.559 goes up and asks her for lunch. You know, that's 939 00:52:24.639 --> 00:52:28.000 a great moment. Or like you were saying before, when 940 00:52:28.079 --> 00:52:30.400 the one kid is threatening him with a knife, he 941 00:52:30.440 --> 00:52:32.960 pulls us his remote control and is trying to change 942 00:52:32.960 --> 00:52:35.519 the channel. And I'm glad that they don't do that 943 00:52:35.559 --> 00:52:38.360 for the whole movie, but they just have the remote there. 944 00:52:38.719 --> 00:52:42.119 And then it's interesting when he's using the remote on 945 00:52:42.159 --> 00:52:45.119 the TV that he's on, it's actually changing the channels 946 00:52:45.119 --> 00:52:48.119 on a small TV next to him, next to that TV. 947 00:52:48.719 --> 00:52:51.440 So it's like this remote does work out in the 948 00:52:51.480 --> 00:52:53.599 real world, but it doesn't work on real people. 949 00:52:54.480 --> 00:52:57.039 The other interesting thing at that point where he's being 950 00:52:57.119 --> 00:52:59.119 threatened by the gang member and he takes out his 951 00:52:59.159 --> 00:53:02.280 remote control, he doesn't look scared. He doesn't. He sees 952 00:53:02.320 --> 00:53:05.920 that knife and he doesn't see that as a threat, 953 00:53:06.159 --> 00:53:09.599 which is another interesting thing because you sort of wonder 954 00:53:09.679 --> 00:53:13.199 if he'd been watching all that TV, he surely would 955 00:53:13.199 --> 00:53:15.880 have seen something violent. Me no sex on TV, but 956 00:53:15.960 --> 00:53:20.079 all the violence that you can handle. And he sees 957 00:53:20.159 --> 00:53:23.079 this knife and it doesn't register to him. But oh, 958 00:53:23.119 --> 00:53:26.880 I've seen this on TV. Someone had a knife and 959 00:53:26.920 --> 00:53:29.519 they got hurt. But he doesn't register that. 960 00:53:29.840 --> 00:53:31.800 I think he's scared. That's why he hits the remote. 961 00:53:31.800 --> 00:53:33.679 It's like I want to see something else. I don't 962 00:53:33.719 --> 00:53:35.000 want to be here. I don't know. That's kind of 963 00:53:35.000 --> 00:53:36.800 my that's my take on it. But it's hard. It's 964 00:53:36.800 --> 00:53:38.519 hard to tell because he doesn't, you know, he never 965 00:53:38.559 --> 00:53:40.800 shows any emotions, so you never know, you really not know. 966 00:53:42.119 --> 00:53:46.119 That sequence also has the amazing image of him walking 967 00:53:46.280 --> 00:53:49.079 straight down the middle of the screen right towards the 968 00:53:49.119 --> 00:53:53.440 Capitol building, which was basically that inspiration for the poster 969 00:53:53.559 --> 00:53:57.239 that we see with him walking on air, which then 970 00:53:58.079 --> 00:54:01.599 I can't remember if I think it was Hunters one 971 00:54:01.599 --> 00:54:04.400 of his pieces where he has a screen grab of 972 00:54:04.440 --> 00:54:07.039 that and then a screen grab of Chance walking on 973 00:54:07.159 --> 00:54:09.400 water at the end of the film, and he's almost 974 00:54:09.480 --> 00:54:12.119 in the exact same position and the camera looks very 975 00:54:12.119 --> 00:54:14.239 similar as far as the height and everything, just to 976 00:54:14.280 --> 00:54:18.800 see him walking down the middle of the screen, one 977 00:54:18.800 --> 00:54:21.400 of them towards the capital basically, and the other one 978 00:54:21.440 --> 00:54:24.599 as he's walking back to the mansion and got the 979 00:54:24.719 --> 00:54:27.320 Biltmore mansion. I've been to the Biltmore mansion, but I 980 00:54:27.400 --> 00:54:31.159 barely remember it. It's funny that I remember seeing being 981 00:54:31.239 --> 00:54:33.719 there more than I remember actually going to that mansion, 982 00:54:33.840 --> 00:54:35.960 going all the way to North Carolina to go to 983 00:54:36.000 --> 00:54:38.559 that mansion, and my mom still talks about going there 984 00:54:38.599 --> 00:54:39.239 to this day. 985 00:54:39.519 --> 00:54:42.519 So I know nothing about that mansion. What's its claim 986 00:54:42.599 --> 00:54:45.039 to fame? Is it still like a public place. 987 00:54:44.840 --> 00:54:47.760 Or well it is now? You can I think you 988 00:54:47.840 --> 00:54:50.480 have to pay to go to it. It's been forever, 989 00:54:50.639 --> 00:54:55.800 like I said, but I want to say, was it Rockefellers, Handerbilt, Vanderbilt? 990 00:54:55.840 --> 00:54:59.119 Thank you? I always mix up all of those oligarchs. 991 00:54:59.199 --> 00:55:00.760 I don't know why old oligarchs. 992 00:55:01.280 --> 00:55:02.800 Was a JP Morgan was it? 993 00:55:04.199 --> 00:55:05.360 Which Robert barn was it? 994 00:55:05.920 --> 00:55:09.320 That was one of their places. So it's just amazing. 995 00:55:09.360 --> 00:55:11.519 The thing I remember the most from it because I 996 00:55:11.719 --> 00:55:14.360 was a younger kid when I was there, was that 997 00:55:14.400 --> 00:55:17.840 there were secret passageways all throughout there and like different 998 00:55:17.880 --> 00:55:20.159 ways to get around the house, and probably a lot 999 00:55:20.159 --> 00:55:22.639 of stuff for the servants so they could move around 1000 00:55:22.679 --> 00:55:25.400 without having to disturb the upper echelon. 1001 00:55:26.360 --> 00:55:29.880 It's so interesting how the television clips just anchor you 1002 00:55:30.079 --> 00:55:34.280 into the present. You have like a silly postropedic mourning. 1003 00:55:34.280 --> 00:55:36.840 Those of us who lived through that remember that commercial 1004 00:55:36.960 --> 00:55:40.480 very well, and so it really these clips really anchor you, 1005 00:55:41.000 --> 00:55:43.159 although they also just work in a both comedic and 1006 00:55:43.559 --> 00:55:47.280 and adding emotion kind of way that is timeless. But 1007 00:55:47.320 --> 00:55:51.079 then the environment he's in is always just completely out 1008 00:55:51.119 --> 00:55:52.599 of time, like he could be it could be you 1009 00:55:52.639 --> 00:55:55.840 know again, like what he's wearing, and it's just you know, 1010 00:55:56.159 --> 00:55:58.360 you can't put your finger on when when it's happening. 1011 00:55:58.400 --> 00:56:00.280 You know, it takes a lot to remember you're in 1012 00:56:00.360 --> 00:56:01.199 nineteen seventy nine. 1013 00:56:01.760 --> 00:56:04.880 One thing that we haven't touched on yet, which is 1014 00:56:05.000 --> 00:56:09.400 really quite the central part of the story, is how 1015 00:56:10.199 --> 00:56:16.719 everything that Chance says is misinterpreted by those people around 1016 00:56:16.800 --> 00:56:21.079 him because oh, he must be metaphorical, because surely he's 1017 00:56:21.079 --> 00:56:24.840 not talking about a garden. And that sort of makes 1018 00:56:24.840 --> 00:56:30.800 me think that as narrow as chances vision is really 1019 00:56:31.119 --> 00:56:35.679 the RAN's vision, and the people around them is just 1020 00:56:35.719 --> 00:56:37.920 as narrow. I mean, they know a little bit more 1021 00:56:37.960 --> 00:56:41.519 about the world, but they really know mostly about the 1022 00:56:41.559 --> 00:56:48.559 world within the multiple walls. They live on this hugely 1023 00:56:49.239 --> 00:56:55.599 wealthier state, and all they know is wealth. They don't 1024 00:56:55.679 --> 00:56:58.719 know about the world that Luise inhabits. They would never 1025 00:56:58.800 --> 00:57:03.719 recognize that Chance walks out onto it the beginning of 1026 00:57:03.719 --> 00:57:06.920 the film, after he leaves the old Man's house and 1027 00:57:07.159 --> 00:57:10.239 everything that he said, like, for instance, that there's that 1028 00:57:10.320 --> 00:57:13.920 moment where they're all sitting down to dinner and there's 1029 00:57:14.039 --> 00:57:18.679 like about ten thousand waiters and servants bringing them their 1030 00:57:18.760 --> 00:57:21.119 meal and there's only four people at the dinner table. 1031 00:57:21.360 --> 00:57:26.920 There's lengthy dinner table and Chances talking about how he 1032 00:57:27.079 --> 00:57:30.719 was kicked out of the property, and Ben says, you 1033 00:57:30.719 --> 00:57:34.679 were kicked out of your business, and Chance, oh, what 1034 00:57:34.719 --> 00:57:37.079 does that mean. Yeah, sure, it's kicked out of the business. 1035 00:57:37.519 --> 00:57:43.920 That's his interpretation. His world is different, but it's equally narrow. 1036 00:57:44.400 --> 00:57:48.679 Just as Chance doesn't understand what certain things mean and 1037 00:57:48.719 --> 00:57:52.079 how to behave under certain situations, I think neither do 1038 00:57:52.199 --> 00:57:55.039 the Rams. They live in this bubble, and Chance that 1039 00:57:55.159 --> 00:57:58.000 lived in a bubble. So I don't know whether you'd 1040 00:57:58.039 --> 00:58:00.840 say whether it's appropriate that they all got together, but 1041 00:58:00.960 --> 00:58:04.559 it's no one's trying to teach each other. Hey have 1042 00:58:04.639 --> 00:58:07.440 a look at the wider world, because they both live 1043 00:58:07.440 --> 00:58:11.679 in their own little space. I mean, the rants is bigger, 1044 00:58:12.119 --> 00:58:15.719 but it's still narrow in lots of ways. 1045 00:58:16.599 --> 00:58:20.039 Shaka when the all spell. 1046 00:58:21.440 --> 00:58:21.840 Shaka. 1047 00:58:21.960 --> 00:58:27.840 Indeed, they are so isolated from the real world, and 1048 00:58:27.960 --> 00:58:30.960 especially you get to hear that quite a bit right 1049 00:58:31.039 --> 00:58:34.119 at the end, when Jack Warden is reading some of 1050 00:58:34.159 --> 00:58:38.559 the quotes that Ben Rand had written or said, and 1051 00:58:38.599 --> 00:58:41.119 it's just that whole like I don't believe in welfare 1052 00:58:41.360 --> 00:58:43.800 and all of these things. I'm like, oh, okay, Like 1053 00:58:44.280 --> 00:58:48.440 I picture Ben as being this very nice, grandfatherly type 1054 00:58:48.440 --> 00:58:50.199 of person. But then when you read some of the 1055 00:58:50.280 --> 00:58:52.559 or when he says some of the things that Rand 1056 00:58:52.599 --> 00:58:55.679 had said earlier in his life, you're like, oh, no, no, 1057 00:58:55.800 --> 00:58:58.239 he is an Ola Gark Okay, all right. And I 1058 00:58:58.440 --> 00:59:01.679 don't think it's any coincidence that they chose the name 1059 00:59:01.760 --> 00:59:03.880 Rand for this, because as soon as I read, I 1060 00:59:03.920 --> 00:59:05.840 was just like, well, kind of reminds me of the 1061 00:59:05.880 --> 00:59:09.320 Rand Corporation, which was this you know, government thinks tank 1062 00:59:09.440 --> 00:59:12.920 that the US used to use and they probably still do, 1063 00:59:13.079 --> 00:59:16.760 that would do all this research on issues like the 1064 00:59:16.840 --> 00:59:22.800 space race or Vietnam or the mutually Assured Destruction, you know, 1065 00:59:22.840 --> 00:59:25.400 and they would like, I want to say, like Robert 1066 00:59:25.519 --> 00:59:27.920 McNamara was part of it at one point, just like 1067 00:59:28.280 --> 00:59:31.480 it's not a really like even Doctor Strangelove, like they 1068 00:59:31.719 --> 00:59:34.440 call it the Bland Corporation, so it's like, you know, 1069 00:59:34.679 --> 00:59:36.440 it's a known thing. And I was just like, yeah, 1070 00:59:36.440 --> 00:59:39.159 I'm pretty sure that they named Ben Rand Rand because 1071 00:59:39.199 --> 00:59:39.480 of this. 1072 00:59:39.719 --> 00:59:43.599 And this is years before the fact, But Melvin Douglas 1073 00:59:43.920 --> 00:59:49.559 looks like Rupert Murdoch does now, So I think if 1074 00:59:49.639 --> 00:59:52.960 Rupert Murdoch was that age at that time, they would 1075 00:59:53.000 --> 00:59:56.760 have deliberately made Melvin Douglas look like and it now 1076 00:59:56.800 --> 00:59:59.440 it's just a film and coincidence. 1077 01:00:00.159 --> 01:00:02.920 Is that like the non understanding, you know, we get 1078 01:00:02.920 --> 01:00:04.559 our first taste of that when he when he meets 1079 01:00:04.599 --> 01:00:06.599 those kids, the kids who think he's in a gang. 1080 01:00:06.639 --> 01:00:09.039 You know that he's talking very ganglator. They're from such 1081 01:00:09.079 --> 01:00:12.719 different planets. The kids can't comprehend him, he can't comprehend 1082 01:00:12.719 --> 01:00:15.280 the kids. And then you're right, it's exactly the same thing, 1083 01:00:15.320 --> 01:00:18.400 but a complete flip when he's in the Rand household. 1084 01:00:18.480 --> 01:00:20.400 Like they're just from different planets, so they're just like 1085 01:00:20.480 --> 01:00:23.440 not interpreting each other in the same way. And I 1086 01:00:23.440 --> 01:00:26.880 think it's a really interesting choice. You don't get too 1087 01:00:26.920 --> 01:00:28.840 much of a feel, you get a little, you know. 1088 01:00:29.039 --> 01:00:32.079 I think in the book you're supposed to assume that 1089 01:00:32.079 --> 01:00:35.960 that Ben Rand is, you know, like your typical jerky 1090 01:00:36.159 --> 01:00:38.719 corporate guy, and they don't get too into it. It's 1091 01:00:38.760 --> 01:00:41.519 just like a completely flat, you know, character. And it's 1092 01:00:41.599 --> 01:00:44.920 really interesting that they make him very sympathetic because it's 1093 01:00:44.960 --> 01:00:46.760 like the kind of movie where you would have expected 1094 01:00:46.800 --> 01:00:49.480 the complete opposite. You'd expected Sherley McClain to be this 1095 01:00:49.639 --> 01:00:52.599 like materialistic and she probably is, you know, you kind 1096 01:00:52.599 --> 01:00:54.280 of do. She's wearing these fur coats, and you know, 1097 01:00:54.360 --> 01:00:58.480 she obviously loves luxury, and she's obviously impressed by this 1098 01:00:58.519 --> 01:01:00.679 guy that everybody else is impressed with. But yet they 1099 01:01:00.679 --> 01:01:03.360 make them both like you feel like they're really in love, 1100 01:01:03.440 --> 01:01:06.199 you know, which is a really interesting take for this 1101 01:01:06.280 --> 01:01:08.719 kind of movie where you feel a real love between 1102 01:01:09.159 --> 01:01:12.440 Ben Rand and Eve Rand. And then also just you 1103 01:01:12.480 --> 01:01:15.760 feel like it's not judge. This movie doesn't judge them, 1104 01:01:15.880 --> 01:01:18.360 you know. And until the end, like you said, during 1105 01:01:18.360 --> 01:01:20.440 the funeral, you start to hear that's the first time 1106 01:01:20.639 --> 01:01:22.920 where you're like, oh, he said that, you know, and 1107 01:01:22.960 --> 01:01:25.760 you realize you know who he really is, and it's 1108 01:01:25.800 --> 01:01:27.880 sort of like I think the movie's statement is a 1109 01:01:27.920 --> 01:01:32.599 little bit like it's kind of refreshing maybe, and maybe 1110 01:01:32.639 --> 01:01:35.360 that's it's a little bit of refreshing that they don't judge, 1111 01:01:35.400 --> 01:01:38.360 you know, that's it kind of removes that part of 1112 01:01:38.400 --> 01:01:41.119 it that people are people, that's their role, that's where 1113 01:01:41.159 --> 01:01:41.519 they are. 1114 01:01:41.559 --> 01:01:41.800 You know. 1115 01:01:42.159 --> 01:01:44.880 There were definitely some sympathetic things about Rand in that 1116 01:01:44.920 --> 01:01:47.199 he wanted to start this company that would help the 1117 01:01:47.239 --> 01:01:49.599 businessmen who were doing badly, so you know, he definitely had. 1118 01:01:49.679 --> 01:01:51.800 You know, I think it's just kind of a neutral 1119 01:01:52.159 --> 01:01:53.840 he turns out, you know in the wash, kind of 1120 01:01:53.840 --> 01:01:54.639 a neutral character. 1121 01:01:55.239 --> 01:01:58.199 Yeah. He wants to help the businessmen do better, not 1122 01:01:58.599 --> 01:02:00.199 the common man do better. 1123 01:02:00.039 --> 01:02:01.639 Of a trickle down economic smuk. 1124 01:02:02.280 --> 01:02:05.440 Oh well yeah, which we know works. So and it 1125 01:02:05.559 --> 01:02:10.039 is interesting that it's dice Art's doctor character that seems 1126 01:02:10.079 --> 01:02:13.440 to start to recognize that Chance isn't everything that he 1127 01:02:13.880 --> 01:02:16.239 seems to be to all of these other people, because 1128 01:02:16.440 --> 01:02:19.119 he's kind of an outsider too. He's also a guest 1129 01:02:19.159 --> 01:02:23.519 in the house, and there's that moment when Chauncey asks him, 1130 01:02:23.639 --> 01:02:26.440 you know, are you going to like after Ben dies? 1131 01:02:26.519 --> 01:02:28.639 He's just like, are you going to leave now? And 1132 01:02:29.079 --> 01:02:31.880 it's like a little bit of a threat to dice 1133 01:02:31.960 --> 01:02:35.079 Art's character, just like, hey, you know, I'm part of 1134 01:02:35.079 --> 01:02:38.400 this household too, but yeah, I guess Rand is dead. 1135 01:02:38.400 --> 01:02:41.119 I really don't have a leg to stand on. And 1136 01:02:41.159 --> 01:02:43.800 I'm glad to like you're talking about how this could 1137 01:02:43.840 --> 01:02:46.639 have been played so different. It could have been so arch, 1138 01:02:46.719 --> 01:02:48.920 and it could have just been you know, just these 1139 01:02:49.199 --> 01:02:52.239 nasty I'm trying to remember, like down and out in 1140 01:02:52.280 --> 01:02:54.800 Beverly Hills type of people, where it's just like the 1141 01:02:54.880 --> 01:02:58.599 clueless rich you know, or even like even like my 1142 01:02:58.719 --> 01:03:02.199 man Godfrey. Right, you've got Godfrey coming in and just 1143 01:03:02.320 --> 01:03:06.360 how airheaded everybody seems to be. Was that Carol Lombard 1144 01:03:06.360 --> 01:03:07.360 in that one, I can't. 1145 01:03:07.199 --> 01:03:09.599 Yes, yes, the original one was Carol. 1146 01:03:09.800 --> 01:03:11.960 So you get like her and she's like, oh, look 1147 01:03:11.960 --> 01:03:13.679 at what I brought to the party, and all this 1148 01:03:13.760 --> 01:03:14.480 kind of stuff. 1149 01:03:14.960 --> 01:03:18.079 Scavenger hut, yes, exactly. 1150 01:03:17.840 --> 01:03:20.360 Like they could have been those characters, you know, but 1151 01:03:20.559 --> 01:03:23.760 luckily they're not. And Diysar could have been really like, 1152 01:03:24.199 --> 01:03:25.679 you know, it could have been like, you know, like 1153 01:03:25.760 --> 01:03:29.079 the nasty villain in some of those screwball comedies where 1154 01:03:29.079 --> 01:03:32.559 it's just like this Deed's character, I've got his number, 1155 01:03:32.599 --> 01:03:35.360 I'm going to expose him for being a fool, you know. 1156 01:03:35.519 --> 01:03:38.679 But he is doing a little bit of that, and 1157 01:03:39.079 --> 01:03:42.039 David Clennon's doing a little bit of that ironically, like 1158 01:03:42.199 --> 01:03:45.320 what two years before the thing, when they would be 1159 01:03:45.559 --> 01:03:49.679 down in Antarctica together, you know, serving on Outpost thirty one, 1160 01:03:49.719 --> 01:03:53.079 them together, it's like they want to figure this stuff out. 1161 01:03:53.159 --> 01:03:55.800 But it's not like he blows the whistle on him. 1162 01:03:55.840 --> 01:03:58.119 I mean, his biggest thing is when he calls Chauncey 1163 01:03:58.320 --> 01:04:01.480 Chance at the end of the movie, and you get 1164 01:04:01.480 --> 01:04:06.400 that little recognition in Chances eyes and you get the recognition. 1165 01:04:06.480 --> 01:04:07.960 Then back to dice Art. 1166 01:04:08.519 --> 01:04:12.079 But it's not like, Aha, I have you. I will 1167 01:04:12.119 --> 01:04:15.719 tell the media all about you. Because the nicest thing 1168 01:04:15.760 --> 01:04:19.239 about this movie really it's like the act one of 1169 01:04:19.360 --> 01:04:22.760 the story, because you could take this and go farther. 1170 01:04:23.280 --> 01:04:26.760 You could have him elected as president and get to 1171 01:04:26.840 --> 01:04:29.639 see what's going on with that, and then you know, 1172 01:04:29.719 --> 01:04:33.079 in twenty twenty four, you could show like that he 1173 01:04:33.199 --> 01:04:37.119 is an idiot and that everybody knows that he's an idiot, 1174 01:04:37.159 --> 01:04:39.599 but yet he stays in power and appoints other idiots 1175 01:04:39.679 --> 01:04:40.880 as his cabinet. 1176 01:04:40.960 --> 01:04:43.679 Well, then you have yes Minister or yes Prime Minister. 1177 01:04:43.760 --> 01:04:45.320 Or what America is right now. 1178 01:04:45.800 --> 01:04:49.320 But Chauncey Gardner knew his television. He could recite all 1179 01:04:49.320 --> 01:04:52.679 the commercials he was listening. Trump is just as much 1180 01:04:52.719 --> 01:04:55.320 of a television addict, with just as little connection to 1181 01:04:55.400 --> 01:04:58.679 non television reality. But while he is ruling this country 1182 01:04:58.800 --> 01:05:02.440 based largely on what he's sees on TV, that reinforces 1183 01:05:02.480 --> 01:05:05.599 what he already saw on TV, or reinforces what he 1184 01:05:05.679 --> 01:05:08.280 thinks he already saw on TV. He's not even paying 1185 01:05:08.320 --> 01:05:09.440 attention to the TV. 1186 01:05:10.639 --> 01:05:13.559 In the other versions, nobody figures out what's going on. 1187 01:05:13.760 --> 01:05:16.280 But here the doctor, which makes sense, you know, because 1188 01:05:16.320 --> 01:05:18.440 like if he's developmental, you know, it makes sense the 1189 01:05:18.480 --> 01:05:21.280 doctor will get But so he does want to tell Rand. 1190 01:05:21.519 --> 01:05:24.320 But when he's getting close to death, he does kind 1191 01:05:24.320 --> 01:05:26.480 of want to be like, you know what, I don't 1192 01:05:26.519 --> 01:05:28.119 know if you really want Eve to end up with 1193 01:05:28.159 --> 01:05:30.239 this guy or if you well, actually he wants to 1194 01:05:30.239 --> 01:05:32.880 appoint him to his board and blah blah blah. And 1195 01:05:32.920 --> 01:05:34.559 in fact you find out, you know, he really wants 1196 01:05:34.639 --> 01:05:37.400 him to be like president, you know, in the book 1197 01:05:37.480 --> 01:05:40.239 vice President, but in the movie actual president. And so 1198 01:05:41.119 --> 01:05:43.119 the I think he does want to be like this 1199 01:05:43.239 --> 01:05:45.719 is not a good thing. But then then when Brand 1200 01:05:45.760 --> 01:05:48.960 says I'm dying happy because this guy's in my life, 1201 01:05:49.000 --> 01:05:51.360 you know, like it's the only reason I'm dying at 1202 01:05:51.360 --> 01:05:54.480 piece is because of this guy, he stops. So and 1203 01:05:54.679 --> 01:05:57.119 let me say that I think that, you know, he 1204 01:05:57.119 --> 01:05:59.159 has an interesting ending. We should talk about the ending, 1205 01:05:59.519 --> 01:06:01.800 which I think is like kind of we're talking a 1206 01:06:01.800 --> 01:06:04.039 little bit about like the future that goes that what 1207 01:06:04.079 --> 01:06:06.559 happens after this movie, and I think, to me, the 1208 01:06:06.599 --> 01:06:09.480 way I interpret the ending where he's just walking on water, 1209 01:06:09.559 --> 01:06:13.920 it's a very nonsensical, almost non sequitor ending. Everybody always 1210 01:06:13.920 --> 01:06:17.320 puzzles over it, and to me, it feels like it's 1211 01:06:17.079 --> 01:06:21.039 it's ashby punctuating the fact that this is a fable 1212 01:06:21.119 --> 01:06:23.519 and there is no future, like this couldn't really happen. 1213 01:06:24.159 --> 01:06:26.840 There's no like it wouldn't really last because Eve would 1214 01:06:26.880 --> 01:06:29.079 find out and everybody would figure out that this but 1215 01:06:29.239 --> 01:06:32.000 it's just a fable. This is the end. Don't even 1216 01:06:32.000 --> 01:06:33.960 think any further about this story. Like that's kind of 1217 01:06:34.000 --> 01:06:36.679 that's my personal interpretation of that ending. Like I think 1218 01:06:36.719 --> 01:06:39.119 that that's kind of in a way what he's kind 1219 01:06:39.119 --> 01:06:40.760 of doing with that little fantasy bit there. 1220 01:06:41.599 --> 01:06:44.199 Yeah, the walking on water, I like that. There are 1221 01:06:44.320 --> 01:06:47.280 so many different interpretations of it. I mean, there's the 1222 01:06:47.679 --> 01:06:52.039 road Runner or sorry, Wiley Coyote, I should say, interpretation 1223 01:06:52.159 --> 01:06:55.480 of it where he runs out or you know, after 1224 01:06:55.519 --> 01:06:58.800 the Roadrunner and then realizes that there is no gravity 1225 01:06:58.840 --> 01:07:01.559 there or no no mountain that he's still on and 1226 01:07:01.599 --> 01:07:04.679 then falls and it's just like, okay, if you don't 1227 01:07:05.559 --> 01:07:08.599 buy into it, if you just are, I hate to 1228 01:07:08.639 --> 01:07:11.519 say it that dumb You can just walk out there. 1229 01:07:11.559 --> 01:07:14.199 If you don't know any better, then there you go. 1230 01:07:14.960 --> 01:07:17.920 The interpretation I like is just like, we don't know 1231 01:07:18.000 --> 01:07:20.719 where Chance came from. We don't know. Maybe he was 1232 01:07:20.719 --> 01:07:23.039 born in a manger, who's never been sick, never went 1233 01:07:23.079 --> 01:07:27.559 to the dentist, perfect human being. He's been locked away 1234 01:07:27.559 --> 01:07:30.119 for all these years. Now he's out. Maybe the Messiah 1235 01:07:30.119 --> 01:07:31.800 has come and this is the Messiah. 1236 01:07:31.880 --> 01:07:32.000 You know. 1237 01:07:32.039 --> 01:07:34.280 It's like Michael moor Cock Behold the Man, where this 1238 01:07:34.360 --> 01:07:37.079 time traveler goes back and meets Jesus only to find 1239 01:07:37.079 --> 01:07:40.239 out that Jesus is a complete, babbling idiot and he 1240 01:07:40.320 --> 01:07:43.639 basically has to take the place of Jesus and do 1241 01:07:43.719 --> 01:07:46.400 all the things that Jesus does even though he knows 1242 01:07:46.440 --> 01:07:49.159 he's going to end up nail to across. And for me, 1243 01:07:49.239 --> 01:07:52.440 it's like, Okay, is this our new Jesus? Is it 1244 01:07:52.599 --> 01:07:56.840 this idiot that can walk on water and has these 1245 01:07:56.880 --> 01:08:00.599 mystical powers? But yeah, I like that one as well. 1246 01:08:00.599 --> 01:08:02.360 But you know, I don't know if I have a 1247 01:08:02.440 --> 01:08:04.480 leg to stand out other than the whole talk of 1248 01:08:04.840 --> 01:08:08.039 the old man and all of this stuff. And I 1249 01:08:08.079 --> 01:08:11.400 love the the misinterpretation of you know, the only thing 1250 01:08:11.440 --> 01:08:13.599 I have left for me is the room upstairs. Oh, 1251 01:08:13.639 --> 01:08:15.880 you're too young to talk about the room upstairs. I'm 1252 01:08:15.880 --> 01:08:17.760 going to go to the room upstairs. And I'm surprised 1253 01:08:17.760 --> 01:08:20.119 the Chance and be like, no, you can't have the 1254 01:08:20.199 --> 01:08:21.439 room upstairs. That's my room. 1255 01:08:21.640 --> 01:08:25.760 It's a nice room. Then in nineteen seventy nine, another 1256 01:08:25.920 --> 01:08:28.319 really big film that came out that year was Life 1257 01:08:28.319 --> 01:08:33.560 of Brian, and Brian is a character who everything he 1258 01:08:33.680 --> 01:08:38.840 says is misinterpreted, well, not necessarily misinterpreted, but once they've decided. 1259 01:08:38.840 --> 01:08:42.479 He dropped his shoe, the holy Isshue, the God of Jerusalem. 1260 01:08:43.560 --> 01:08:45.319 We must wear it on our heads. 1261 01:08:46.199 --> 01:08:50.000 Even when he tries to get explicit. Now back off, 1262 01:08:50.800 --> 01:08:51.840 how shall we fuck off? 1263 01:08:51.840 --> 01:08:52.000 Oh? 1264 01:08:52.039 --> 01:08:56.359 Lord? You know, there's nothing that he says that people 1265 01:08:56.399 --> 01:08:58.000 will believe the worst of him. 1266 01:08:58.000 --> 01:08:58.399 That's it. 1267 01:08:58.439 --> 01:09:01.319 They've decided he is the one. He's the one that 1268 01:09:01.319 --> 01:09:04.920 they want to hear from. And just like in being there, 1269 01:09:05.680 --> 01:09:10.079 at some point it stops being about misinterpretation of what 1270 01:09:10.199 --> 01:09:12.880 Chance says, and they've said, right, we've already decided he's 1271 01:09:12.880 --> 01:09:16.720 a messiah. I mean what the girlfriend of the lawyer says, Yeah, 1272 01:09:16.720 --> 01:09:18.840 he certainly talks like a gardener. But I think he's 1273 01:09:18.880 --> 01:09:22.279 a genius. They've made up their mind. There's nothing that 1274 01:09:22.319 --> 01:09:25.720 he's going to say at any stage. It's apart from 1275 01:09:25.920 --> 01:09:29.119 the doctor that's going to make them spend their heads 1276 01:09:29.119 --> 01:09:31.720 away and think, hang on, this guy really is he's 1277 01:09:31.760 --> 01:09:34.840 talking literally, he's not talking metaphorically. All he's talking about 1278 01:09:34.880 --> 01:09:37.720 is gardens. I like that contrast. I think I was 1279 01:09:37.760 --> 01:09:42.000 saying in a type message to you, Mike, that another 1280 01:09:42.119 --> 01:09:45.720 film that I could see that this is similar to 1281 01:09:45.880 --> 01:09:48.159 is one that we covered on the projection booth a 1282 01:09:48.159 --> 01:09:51.399 few years ago, was The Big Dig where there's a 1283 01:09:51.479 --> 01:09:56.159 main character who escapes from an asylum and he's got 1284 01:09:56.159 --> 01:09:59.600 a passion for pneumatic drills. He comes out, steals a 1285 01:09:59.680 --> 01:10:03.800 drill and goes into the center of Tel Aviv and 1286 01:10:03.840 --> 01:10:09.199 starts digging up the road. And rather than anyone saying, hey, 1287 01:10:09.239 --> 01:10:12.399 what the hell are you doing, let's take you away, 1288 01:10:12.720 --> 01:10:15.920 everyone's trying to sort of work out which member of 1289 01:10:16.199 --> 01:10:20.640 council had asked for the road to be dug up. 1290 01:10:20.720 --> 01:10:23.199 And you've got a policeman pushing away the cars and 1291 01:10:23.239 --> 01:10:25.840 say no, this is being dug up. No one's asking anything, 1292 01:10:25.880 --> 01:10:27.960 And then people are blaming each other and then at 1293 01:10:28.000 --> 01:10:30.560 the end they're all taking credit for it, and this guy, 1294 01:10:30.600 --> 01:10:33.880 he's just a simple guy who's just digging up the road. 1295 01:10:34.119 --> 01:10:38.439 It's the bureaucracy. It's a misinterpretation. And I really saw 1296 01:10:38.479 --> 01:10:41.399 that as a good parallel to this story as well. 1297 01:10:41.520 --> 01:10:43.560 I think I've done a number of films on the 1298 01:10:43.560 --> 01:10:49.800 projection booth with you, Mike about misinterpretation. Simple simple people. 1299 01:10:49.800 --> 01:10:52.359 That's my that's my passion. 1300 01:10:52.600 --> 01:10:54.560 You know, Like I think of parallels, like Barry Linden 1301 01:10:54.720 --> 01:10:57.079 is an idiot, like sort of an idiot who and 1302 01:10:57.119 --> 01:10:59.319 then at The Jerk, which came out that the same era, 1303 01:10:59.439 --> 01:11:01.680 which is what I'm my favorite movies, The jack It's 1304 01:11:01.720 --> 01:11:02.399 the same story. 1305 01:11:02.680 --> 01:11:05.079 The only thing that's missing is the aptigraph exactly. 1306 01:11:05.359 --> 01:11:08.079 It's very similar, very similar kind of tale, which is 1307 01:11:08.159 --> 01:11:10.520 kind of cool. And then, like you were saying about, 1308 01:11:10.640 --> 01:11:12.560 you kind of remind me, Mike a little bit when 1309 01:11:12.600 --> 01:11:14.880 you were talking before. This is like an anti omen 1310 01:11:15.000 --> 01:11:17.199 like the Omen backwards, you know, like you know, in 1311 01:11:17.239 --> 01:11:20.319 a way, there's a lot of interesting parallels. It's always 1312 01:11:20.319 --> 01:11:22.119 an interesting story where you have a rise to power 1313 01:11:22.239 --> 01:11:23.399 like this, we. 1314 01:11:23.319 --> 01:11:24.920 Are to cure write a film festival. 1315 01:11:25.760 --> 01:11:29.199 Simple people thrust into great situations. We're going to take 1316 01:11:29.239 --> 01:11:31.079 a break and we'll be back with an interview with 1317 01:11:31.119 --> 01:11:34.520 Aaron Hunter, the writer of authoring hal Ashby the myth 1318 01:11:34.560 --> 01:11:38.159 of the New Hollywood Tour. Right after these brief messages. 1319 01:11:40.000 --> 01:11:43.279 Get ready to dive deep into the life, career, and 1320 01:11:43.479 --> 01:11:47.600 unforgettable moments of the one and only Chevy Chase. Join 1321 01:11:47.680 --> 01:11:50.880 us on an exciting journey through the illustrious career of 1322 01:11:50.920 --> 01:11:55.600 this comedy icon as we explore his groundbreaking roles, behind 1323 01:11:55.600 --> 01:11:59.880 the scenes stories, and timeless contributions to the world of entertainment. 1324 01:12:00.520 --> 01:12:04.720 Each episode of the Chasing chevy Chase podcast brings you 1325 01:12:04.880 --> 01:12:09.760 expert analysis and nostalgic reflections on Chevy Chase's most iconic 1326 01:12:09.840 --> 01:12:14.439 characters in classic films like National Lampoon's Vacation. 1327 01:12:14.600 --> 01:12:16.199 Caddy Shack, and Fletch. 1328 01:12:16.880 --> 01:12:21.039 Whether you're a diehard Chevy Chase aficionado or simply curious 1329 01:12:21.079 --> 01:12:24.920 about the man behind the laughter, Chasing chevy Chase is 1330 01:12:24.960 --> 01:12:28.640 your go to podcast for all things Chevy Chase. Tune 1331 01:12:28.680 --> 01:12:31.399 in and join the conversation as we celebrate the life 1332 01:12:31.399 --> 01:12:34.800 and legacy of a true Hollywood legend. Don't miss out. 1333 01:12:35.359 --> 01:12:38.600 Subscribe now to Chasing Chevy Chase wherever you get your 1334 01:12:38.600 --> 01:12:40.840 podcasts and let the adventure begin. 1335 01:12:49.800 --> 01:12:51.399 I want to know a little bit more about you 1336 01:12:51.479 --> 01:12:54.000 and how you got interested in film and writing about film. 1337 01:12:54.800 --> 01:12:57.000 I was always interested in film. I'm a kind of 1338 01:12:57.199 --> 01:13:04.039 gen X's Star Wars Baby. But academically I moved. I 1339 01:13:04.119 --> 01:13:07.279 left the US. I just realized, actually today, it was 1340 01:13:07.279 --> 01:13:10.680 about twenty five years ago this week, and I ended 1341 01:13:10.760 --> 01:13:15.279 up in Budapest, Hungary, where I was teaching American studies. 1342 01:13:16.039 --> 01:13:18.640 I had a master's degree in English and literature was 1343 01:13:18.680 --> 01:13:22.399 my background, but I just started using film more and 1344 01:13:22.479 --> 01:13:26.680 more in the classroom. It was academic course of study, 1345 01:13:26.720 --> 01:13:31.079 but we used American culture and civilization, everything from talking 1346 01:13:31.159 --> 01:13:35.800 about different decades to talking about race in America or 1347 01:13:35.960 --> 01:13:39.720 education or gender, all these sorts of things as subject 1348 01:13:39.720 --> 01:13:43.159 matter for them to write about. And it just became 1349 01:13:43.199 --> 01:13:46.279 clear and clear to me that using film in those 1350 01:13:46.319 --> 01:13:51.079 contexts conveyed a lot of the messages easier, at least 1351 01:13:51.079 --> 01:13:54.399 for me. And so they ended up letting me put 1352 01:13:54.439 --> 01:13:57.720 together a film class which was on the nineteen seventies. 1353 01:13:58.439 --> 01:14:00.880 And while I was doing that and putting together the 1354 01:14:00.920 --> 01:14:03.520 reading list, one of the things I noticed was that 1355 01:14:03.720 --> 01:14:07.239 at that point, this would have been two thousand and six. 1356 01:14:07.680 --> 01:14:12.439 I think that there was nothing. There was one article 1357 01:14:12.640 --> 01:14:17.600 on Senses of Cinema. I think about hal Ashby, and 1358 01:14:18.119 --> 01:14:21.199 that's what led me to start to think about putting 1359 01:14:21.239 --> 01:14:24.359 it together as a PhD project. I was already thinking 1360 01:14:24.399 --> 01:14:27.720 about going back for a PhD, and I had met 1361 01:14:27.800 --> 01:14:31.439 my partner who I would eventually marry. She was an 1362 01:14:31.479 --> 01:14:34.560 English teacher from Hungary who wanted to live in an 1363 01:14:34.600 --> 01:14:37.960 English speaking country, and it all came together. We ended 1364 01:14:38.039 --> 01:14:41.079 up first in Belfast and then down here in Dublin. 1365 01:14:42.000 --> 01:14:47.079 Hal Ashby and the Seventies go together so well. It 1366 01:14:47.119 --> 01:14:50.119 feels like that's such a natural marriage. 1367 01:14:50.319 --> 01:14:54.399 That's more parent now than it was in the first 1368 01:14:54.439 --> 01:15:00.439 couple decades of the construction of the seventies image, which 1369 01:15:00.520 --> 01:15:05.359 really started in the late seventies, where it was more 1370 01:15:05.600 --> 01:15:08.560 about the kind of I didn't want to say macho, 1371 01:15:08.640 --> 01:15:12.479 but the sort of larger than life Maverick, directors, Peck 1372 01:15:12.520 --> 01:15:16.760 and Pah and Friedkin and these kind of guys, even Altman, 1373 01:15:16.960 --> 01:15:20.640 somebody who wouldn't take no for an answer, and a 1374 01:15:20.680 --> 01:15:24.720 lot of the ways that seventies films were written about 1375 01:15:24.800 --> 01:15:27.399 in the eighties and i'd say into the early two 1376 01:15:27.479 --> 01:15:33.199 thousands was about topics that are coming back around now, 1377 01:15:33.239 --> 01:15:42.560 but male loneliness that sort of disaffected young boomer late Vietnam, 1378 01:15:42.640 --> 01:15:48.520 post Vietnam, distrust of the establishment kind of person, the 1379 01:15:48.560 --> 01:15:53.039 Bobby Dupree or Travis Bickle, these kinds of characters. And 1380 01:15:54.279 --> 01:15:57.880 one of the things that drew me to Ashby is 1381 01:15:57.920 --> 01:16:03.760 that his films they fit that, but they're different. Harold 1382 01:16:03.840 --> 01:16:07.640 is a different Big Year, and even the tough guys 1383 01:16:07.800 --> 01:16:10.960 in the last detail, I think it's a different kind 1384 01:16:11.000 --> 01:16:14.039 of projection of toughness that they have than somebody like 1385 01:16:14.079 --> 01:16:18.399 Popeye Doyle or somebody like that. They're stock and they 1386 01:16:18.439 --> 01:16:20.840 don't know what to do about it, but they're not. 1387 01:16:21.760 --> 01:16:26.239 I don't want to, like overemphasize the differences, but I 1388 01:16:26.239 --> 01:16:28.800 think he has a foot in that, but he's not 1389 01:16:28.920 --> 01:16:31.239 fully in it, which is why I think in some 1390 01:16:31.319 --> 01:16:33.880 of the earlier books he's not even really mentioned, or 1391 01:16:33.880 --> 01:16:36.920 he's a footnote in a way. But I think, as 1392 01:16:37.199 --> 01:16:39.920 in the last let's say, fifteen years, as the kind 1393 01:16:40.000 --> 01:16:45.840 of understanding of the seventies filmography has expanded, and our 1394 01:16:45.920 --> 01:16:51.119 awareness of the different filmmakers, female filmmakers and filmmakers of 1395 01:16:51.159 --> 01:16:54.520 color that were making films that people were going to see, 1396 01:16:54.600 --> 01:16:58.800 but that just weren't getting canonized early on. Then Ashby 1397 01:16:58.880 --> 01:17:02.439 fits better or into that kind of broader constellation, if 1398 01:17:02.479 --> 01:17:03.159 that makes sense. 1399 01:17:04.039 --> 01:17:07.039 Do you think one reason why he wasn't as noticed 1400 01:17:07.159 --> 01:17:09.960 or as laud it is because of the title of 1401 01:17:09.960 --> 01:17:13.319 your book, The myth of the new Hollywood auteur wasn't 1402 01:17:13.319 --> 01:17:16.680 because he was collaborating more with other people that he 1403 01:17:16.760 --> 01:17:20.039 wasn't seen as that singular tough guide director. 1404 01:17:20.880 --> 01:17:24.199 I think so, Yeah, definitely, I think they were all 1405 01:17:24.239 --> 01:17:27.800 collaborating that much. But I think that there was a 1406 01:17:28.000 --> 01:17:32.359 confluence of events that I talk about in the book 1407 01:17:32.520 --> 01:17:36.720 and on all my books really of the changing nature 1408 01:17:36.760 --> 01:17:41.079 of the studio system, a new guard, a new generation 1409 01:17:41.479 --> 01:17:49.039 of directors, and the wider spread public understanding of tourism 1410 01:17:49.760 --> 01:17:54.840 as a tourism became something that film critics wrote about, 1411 01:17:55.279 --> 01:17:59.159 not just film academics, and as it became a marketing 1412 01:17:59.239 --> 01:18:03.319 tool of film by and so on. That the confluence 1413 01:18:03.359 --> 01:18:07.880 of all of those things by nineteen seventy one or 1414 01:18:07.920 --> 01:18:15.720 two meant that those savvy filmmakers knew to adopt that 1415 01:18:15.800 --> 01:18:19.680 mantle and then promote themselves under that mantle and Ashby 1416 01:18:19.760 --> 01:18:23.319 was resistant to that. In an interview after interview where 1417 01:18:23.319 --> 01:18:29.039 he's constantly deflecting his role onto his cinematographers or by Taller, 1418 01:18:29.159 --> 01:18:32.640 his production designer. He's always talking about his role in 1419 01:18:32.720 --> 01:18:35.000 the look of the film, his performers and so on. 1420 01:18:35.520 --> 01:18:38.520 And I think the more we learn about how those 1421 01:18:38.560 --> 01:18:42.279 films were made, the more we see that well Scorsese 1422 01:18:42.479 --> 01:18:45.439 was doing that too, and Bogdanovitch was doing that too. 1423 01:18:45.560 --> 01:18:49.399 They were just better at the time at playing the 1424 01:18:49.520 --> 01:18:55.000 game of presenting themselves as singular visionary director. 1425 01:18:55.800 --> 01:18:58.880 By Danovich was so good about it that so many 1426 01:18:58.880 --> 01:19:01.039 people don't even know about Holly Platt, who I know, 1427 01:19:01.079 --> 01:19:02.359 is somebody else that you wrote about. 1428 01:19:03.119 --> 01:19:07.720 Yeah, I think Karina's podcast from a few years ago 1429 01:19:08.199 --> 01:19:12.720 expanded the knowledge ba's about poly Platt. But yeah, Bogdanovitch 1430 01:19:12.840 --> 01:19:15.640 was very good editor. I mean, he's a fantastic rack 1431 01:19:15.760 --> 01:19:20.520 on tour, and he's a fantastic historian of film and 1432 01:19:20.880 --> 01:19:25.880 very good at placing himself within that history, which he 1433 01:19:26.000 --> 01:19:30.199 made four incredible films right out of the gate and 1434 01:19:30.239 --> 01:19:34.279 then had a very good filmography. So he deserves to 1435 01:19:34.319 --> 01:19:37.800 be in that history. But he certainly knew that. 1436 01:19:39.039 --> 01:19:42.520 Why do you think that Ashby was so collaborative and 1437 01:19:43.000 --> 01:19:45.800 was so open to that. Was that fromastasa as an 1438 01:19:45.920 --> 01:19:47.600 editor or where did that come from? 1439 01:19:48.279 --> 01:19:51.159 He talks about it as early as working on some 1440 01:19:51.239 --> 01:19:53.880 of the first films where he was an assistant editor 1441 01:19:53.920 --> 01:19:57.319 to Robert Swink on the William Wiler films, and Wyler 1442 01:19:57.319 --> 01:20:01.159 and Swink coming in and saying to the whole if 1443 01:20:01.159 --> 01:20:04.039 you have an idea, tell us, we probably won't use it, 1444 01:20:04.239 --> 01:20:06.000 but we want to hear it. No idea is a 1445 01:20:06.000 --> 01:20:09.039 bad idea until we decide it's a bad idea. And 1446 01:20:09.079 --> 01:20:13.800 that was part of his his sort of apprenticeship in 1447 01:20:13.840 --> 01:20:17.760 the industry, and then when he went to work with 1448 01:20:18.000 --> 01:20:22.439 Norman Jewison. He's edited those films of Jewisen's in the 1449 01:20:22.479 --> 01:20:24.640 sixty Cincinnati Kid and obviously In the Heat of the 1450 01:20:24.720 --> 01:20:28.239 Night for which he won the Oscar and Thomas Crown affair. 1451 01:20:29.119 --> 01:20:35.760 Jewison was fairly new too, and he was also, like Ashby, 1452 01:20:35.760 --> 01:20:41.039 would become invested in using his crew to the best 1453 01:20:41.039 --> 01:20:46.800 of their abilities and really letting them make suggestions. I'm 1454 01:20:46.800 --> 01:20:50.840 working on a piece about the cinematography of In the 1455 01:20:50.880 --> 01:20:54.960 Heat of the Night right now, and how much decision 1456 01:20:54.960 --> 01:20:58.520 making Haskell Wexler had on that film to shoot it 1457 01:20:58.600 --> 01:21:01.159 the way he wanted to shoot it in order to 1458 01:21:01.319 --> 01:21:07.960 capture most specifically Partier's performance in Partier's presence on screen Jewison, 1459 01:21:08.119 --> 01:21:10.560 it seems, from both what Jewison said about it and 1460 01:21:10.600 --> 01:21:14.800 what Wexler said about it, basically let Wexler det up 1461 01:21:14.800 --> 01:21:17.600 the cinematography on that choose the cameras, choose the lenses, 1462 01:21:17.680 --> 01:21:20.119 choose the film, choose the lighting, and so on. So 1463 01:21:20.119 --> 01:21:23.880 it's in that kind of twelve or thirteen years of 1464 01:21:24.039 --> 01:21:27.560 working mostly with Wiler and then with Jewison, That's how 1465 01:21:27.600 --> 01:21:32.199 he learned filmmaking works. And so I think he brought 1466 01:21:32.239 --> 01:21:36.199 that approach with him because that's how he was trained, 1467 01:21:36.239 --> 01:21:39.880 but also he saw the film's benefit from it. He 1468 01:21:39.920 --> 01:21:42.800 always wanted to work with Haskell Wexler because they'd done 1469 01:21:42.800 --> 01:21:45.760 a couple films with Jewison and they'd become friends, and 1470 01:21:45.800 --> 01:21:50.079 they would remain friends until Ashby passed and Jeff Wexler 1471 01:21:50.119 --> 01:21:53.600 Haskell's son. I think he worked on all of Ashby's 1472 01:21:53.640 --> 01:21:57.000 films from Harold and Maud, so they were family friends 1473 01:21:57.000 --> 01:21:59.960 and so on. But he couldn't get him until Bound 1474 01:22:00.119 --> 01:22:05.399 for Glory and so on the Landlord. He got Gordon Willis, 1475 01:22:06.239 --> 01:22:09.319 and then he wanted to work with Willis again all 1476 01:22:09.359 --> 01:22:11.600 the time after that, but they were like East Coast 1477 01:22:11.680 --> 01:22:14.760 West Coast Union things, and he was back on the 1478 01:22:14.800 --> 01:22:17.720 East Coast after Harold and Maud wanted to get Gordon 1479 01:22:17.720 --> 01:22:21.439 Willis again, but he was maybe working on The Godfather 1480 01:22:21.520 --> 01:22:25.319 Part two, and so he hired Michael Chapman, who was 1481 01:22:25.640 --> 01:22:28.760 like Gordon Willis's assistant, who'd never been a cinematographer on 1482 01:22:28.800 --> 01:22:33.399 a film before. And Chapman was like what Okay talked about, 1483 01:22:33.520 --> 01:22:36.479 not knowing exactly what he was doing. The people have 1484 01:22:36.600 --> 01:22:39.560 praised my use of natural light on that film. I 1485 01:22:39.560 --> 01:22:41.720 didn't know how to like this. I just used the 1486 01:22:41.800 --> 01:22:44.119 light that was there and it worked and it looks 1487 01:22:44.159 --> 01:22:48.000 great and stark and cold like that film does. And 1488 01:22:48.079 --> 01:22:50.319 then he went on to do Taxi Driver and Raging 1489 01:22:50.319 --> 01:22:53.399 Bowl and so many other great films. So yeah, I 1490 01:22:53.439 --> 01:22:56.840 really appreciate Ashby's willingness to do that over and over 1491 01:22:56.880 --> 01:22:58.920 and with some of his editors who are maybe lesser 1492 01:22:58.960 --> 01:23:01.079 known than Michael Chapman. But he did the same thing 1493 01:23:01.560 --> 01:23:04.079 which would bite him in the ass on some of 1494 01:23:04.199 --> 01:23:07.319 Zadies films when he brought in some unproven editors who 1495 01:23:08.199 --> 01:23:10.359 he tried to give a chance to but maybe didn't 1496 01:23:11.119 --> 01:23:13.479 work out the way he'd hoped they would on some 1497 01:23:13.520 --> 01:23:14.800 of those last few films. 1498 01:23:15.520 --> 01:23:17.600 One of the things that I found fascinating about him 1499 01:23:17.680 --> 01:23:21.000 was the whole idea of him shooting and editing two 1500 01:23:21.119 --> 01:23:24.279 films at once, or editing two films at once. Was 1501 01:23:24.319 --> 01:23:26.279 the first time doing that? Was that being there in 1502 01:23:26.359 --> 01:23:28.359 secondhand hearts? Or had he done that before? 1503 01:23:29.239 --> 01:23:34.720 That was the first time doing that? He was getting 1504 01:23:34.760 --> 01:23:38.319 really burnt out. There's conflicting stories. When I wrote the 1505 01:23:38.880 --> 01:23:43.000 I shouldn't probably say this, but who wrote the Ashby book? 1506 01:23:43.000 --> 01:23:46.560 I was really committed to tali an alternate story to 1507 01:23:46.760 --> 01:23:51.600 the Ashby burnt out on drugs, which was that's all 1508 01:23:51.640 --> 01:23:54.279 part of Peter Biskins's narrative, and that's a lot of 1509 01:23:54.319 --> 01:23:56.720 the kind of all those last four films aren't that 1510 01:23:56.760 --> 01:23:59.800 good because of cocaine. And Nick Dawson's book. I don't 1511 01:23:59.800 --> 01:24:02.359 know if you've read his biography of Ashby, but he 1512 01:24:02.399 --> 01:24:06.119 goes into quite a lot of detail about just how 1513 01:24:06.279 --> 01:24:10.119 burnt out Ashby was from working these kind of sixteen 1514 01:24:10.159 --> 01:24:12.960 hour days for weeks and weeks because he would let 1515 01:24:12.960 --> 01:24:16.399 his editors edit. I interviewed Bob Jones a couple of times, 1516 01:24:16.720 --> 01:24:20.319 who edited, I think from the last detail Shampoo Bound 1517 01:24:20.319 --> 01:24:24.079 for Glory and then worked as a writer on Being 1518 01:24:24.119 --> 01:24:27.479 There and Coming Home, and he said, while he was 1519 01:24:27.600 --> 01:24:30.800 editing those films, Ashby just let him be for days 1520 01:24:30.840 --> 01:24:32.319 and days where he'd come down at the end of 1521 01:24:32.319 --> 01:24:35.000 the day and just look at what was there. But 1522 01:24:35.840 --> 01:24:38.319 for him it was then the fine tuning. So he 1523 01:24:38.359 --> 01:24:42.119 would get his editor Don Zimmerman or Jones or whoever 1524 01:24:42.159 --> 01:24:46.319 it was, would get the film where Ashby wanted it. 1525 01:24:46.359 --> 01:24:49.520 And then he was so interested in rhythm and so 1526 01:24:49.800 --> 01:24:54.439 interested in the precise moments in those cross cutting like 1527 01:24:54.960 --> 01:24:57.439 so many of his films, and with those great cross 1528 01:24:57.439 --> 01:24:59.119 cut like Harold and Maud where he's still in the 1529 01:24:59.159 --> 01:25:01.920 hospital and he's driving the car and the cat Stephens 1530 01:25:01.920 --> 01:25:05.399 song's playing and you're just shattered, or the end of 1531 01:25:05.479 --> 01:25:09.319 Coming Home where you're cutting between Dern and John Voyd 1532 01:25:09.319 --> 01:25:11.319 talking to the kids in the gym, and it's just 1533 01:25:11.520 --> 01:25:15.079 so intense, and for him, all of the precision of 1534 01:25:15.119 --> 01:25:17.640 that was what was important. And he would just spend 1535 01:25:17.680 --> 01:25:22.760 because he's editing on film, on decks and a long 1536 01:25:22.960 --> 01:25:26.560 time working on that, and he would feel burned out. 1537 01:25:27.119 --> 01:25:30.479 And I think he felt really burnt out by the 1538 01:25:30.560 --> 01:25:33.760 end of Coming Home, which also happened to be his 1539 01:25:34.439 --> 01:25:38.279 sort of most celebrated film at the time anyway, and 1540 01:25:38.399 --> 01:25:43.359 so going into Being There, Second Hand Hearts was actually 1541 01:25:43.359 --> 01:25:47.920 filmed first and the Lorimar deal, which also would produce 1542 01:25:47.960 --> 01:25:51.079 Looking to get out. That was his idea. He thought, 1543 01:25:51.119 --> 01:25:53.800 I can stay fresh. If I start to feel burnt 1544 01:25:53.800 --> 01:25:56.159 out on this one film, I'll go and work on 1545 01:25:56.319 --> 01:25:58.479 the other film. I don't think it quite worked out 1546 01:25:58.760 --> 01:26:01.800 the way he wanted to be because, as I was 1547 01:26:01.840 --> 01:26:07.039 talking about earlier, the initial edits of Secondhand Hearts didn't 1548 01:26:07.159 --> 01:26:11.359 work out as well as Zimmerman's editing on Being There. 1549 01:26:11.399 --> 01:26:14.479 So he had to go back into Secondhand Hearts and 1550 01:26:14.680 --> 01:26:18.720 rework it from the very beginning, which was a lot 1551 01:26:18.800 --> 01:26:21.199 more laborious than he had hoped it would be. 1552 01:26:21.920 --> 01:26:24.399 Tell me a little bit about the origins of Being 1553 01:26:24.479 --> 01:26:29.319 There and the evolution of a screenplay, because the idea 1554 01:26:29.399 --> 01:26:32.920 behind that of you teaching those screenplays and then how 1555 01:26:32.960 --> 01:26:35.359 it became a book. I would love people to know 1556 01:26:35.399 --> 01:26:39.560 more about that me too. Thanks for asking about it. 1557 01:26:40.520 --> 01:26:43.079 That was a real Passion project, and I was shocked 1558 01:26:43.119 --> 01:26:47.479 that my publisher, Katie Galloff, she's at Bloomsbury and she's amazing. 1559 01:26:47.520 --> 01:26:49.720 So I have to give her props because I just 1560 01:26:49.760 --> 01:26:51.560 went to her and I was like, I've got this 1561 01:26:51.720 --> 01:26:55.399 quirky idea for a book. Do you think anybody would 1562 01:26:55.399 --> 01:26:58.920 publish this? And she was like, I'll publish it. I 1563 01:26:58.960 --> 01:27:02.199 didn't mean you got it wasn't asking and they were 1564 01:27:02.399 --> 01:27:05.159 great about it. It's a big, fat book that's not 1565 01:27:05.279 --> 01:27:08.920 typical of if these are my loop I have them here, 1566 01:27:08.960 --> 01:27:11.880 but oh, we're on a podcast. But you can see 1567 01:27:11.880 --> 01:27:16.880 anyway that being their books a lot bigger, both in 1568 01:27:17.039 --> 01:27:19.720 its kind of dimensions and how thick it is, and 1569 01:27:20.680 --> 01:27:24.039 so I really appreciate that they agreed to publish it. 1570 01:27:24.039 --> 01:27:26.840 It was Yeah. So I teach a lot of screenwriting 1571 01:27:27.680 --> 01:27:31.039 and I still do, like if any of my students 1572 01:27:31.039 --> 01:27:34.960 listen to this, I still use the end of being 1573 01:27:35.000 --> 01:27:39.760 there on the first day of class, because I talk 1574 01:27:39.840 --> 01:27:45.079 about screenwriting is rewriting. No matter what process you have 1575 01:27:45.399 --> 01:27:49.560 in your head, about writing in your ivory tower or 1576 01:27:49.960 --> 01:27:52.479 your own individual genius, hold on to those things. They're 1577 01:27:52.520 --> 01:27:55.880 great too, But if you want to go into this industry. 1578 01:27:56.880 --> 01:27:59.000 You're going to get notes and you're going to have 1579 01:27:59.000 --> 01:28:01.079 to respond to those notes, and those notes are going 1580 01:28:01.119 --> 01:28:03.520 to help you. Sometimes they're going to be annoying, sometimes 1581 01:28:03.520 --> 01:28:06.680 they're gonna seem ridiculous, but oftentimes they're gonna help you. 1582 01:28:07.359 --> 01:28:09.880 So let's look at how this happened, and then the 1583 01:28:09.920 --> 01:28:12.079 two Jones scripts, and then we watched the end of 1584 01:28:12.079 --> 01:28:15.359 the film and it seemed to work. I started doing 1585 01:28:15.439 --> 01:28:22.880 that around twenty fourteen, and I had a couple scripts. 1586 01:28:22.920 --> 01:28:27.239 I have the Robert Town published or I don't know 1587 01:28:27.279 --> 01:28:29.960 who published it, but it's the last Detail in Chinatown, 1588 01:28:30.720 --> 01:28:33.840 A nice little publication of that script. I have some 1589 01:28:33.920 --> 01:28:36.920 Hal Hartley scripts that I bought and a few other 1590 01:28:36.960 --> 01:28:41.600 script books. What if there was not just one script 1591 01:28:41.640 --> 01:28:44.199 but more. I wanted to put five drafts in, but 1592 01:28:44.239 --> 01:28:48.720 they were like, you can't do that, met come on, huh. 1593 01:28:49.199 --> 01:28:52.840 So they agreed on the three drafts. And there was 1594 01:28:52.880 --> 01:28:57.000 a lot of talk during the kind of production phase 1595 01:28:57.039 --> 01:29:00.640 of the book about how much I should include, should 1596 01:29:00.640 --> 01:29:02.560 this be a work book? We went through a month 1597 01:29:02.640 --> 01:29:04.439 or six weeks where it was going to be a workbook, 1598 01:29:04.520 --> 01:29:08.439 where there were like questions and it was textbooky thing 1599 01:29:09.319 --> 01:29:12.000 and I didn't really want it to be that because 1600 01:29:12.000 --> 01:29:13.800 I wanted it, and this is what makes it a 1601 01:29:13.880 --> 01:29:16.279 hard sell, I think, to be honest, but I wanted 1602 01:29:16.319 --> 01:29:19.680 it to be a book that students could look at 1603 01:29:20.079 --> 01:29:24.840 in a classroom but also on their own and track 1604 01:29:24.920 --> 01:29:28.439 those changes themselves. So if you've looked at it, in 1605 01:29:28.520 --> 01:29:30.920 the introduction and in the short intros to each of 1606 01:29:31.000 --> 01:29:34.760 the scripts, I give a couple examples, but I really 1607 01:29:34.800 --> 01:29:39.359 want that process of discovery is really important. So when 1608 01:29:39.359 --> 01:29:42.800 I'm teaching screenwriting, I'll sign a script with the film 1609 01:29:43.319 --> 01:29:45.520 and they're going to do what they're going to do 1610 01:29:45.520 --> 01:29:48.279 because they're students. But I asked them read the script, 1611 01:29:48.760 --> 01:29:51.399 watch the film, and then watch the film again with 1612 01:29:51.560 --> 01:29:54.479 the script. And some of them do, I know, because 1613 01:29:54.520 --> 01:29:57.680 they come to class and we often end up talking 1614 01:29:57.680 --> 01:30:01.479 about the differences. Is this different in the film than 1615 01:30:01.479 --> 01:30:04.399 it is on the page? And we can't always because 1616 01:30:04.399 --> 01:30:06.439 of the nature of scripts and which script do you 1617 01:30:06.479 --> 01:30:09.239 find online? And so on, we can't always come to 1618 01:30:09.279 --> 01:30:12.840 a reason why the change was made, but we can 1619 01:30:12.920 --> 01:30:16.560 at least talk about the effect of it in class 1620 01:30:16.840 --> 01:30:20.880 for them as writers, and it ends up being really effective, 1621 01:30:20.920 --> 01:30:22.640 I think, because I have them at the end of 1622 01:30:22.720 --> 01:30:26.119 the semester write a kind of critical reflection of the 1623 01:30:26.159 --> 01:30:28.760 process of writing their own script, and they often write 1624 01:30:28.800 --> 01:30:32.680 about when I saw this change from the script to 1625 01:30:32.720 --> 01:30:37.680 screen in this film, I realized the efficiency of dialogue, 1626 01:30:37.920 --> 01:30:40.880 or I better understood the get in late and get 1627 01:30:40.920 --> 01:30:44.039 out early rule of screenwriting, or whatever it might be. 1628 01:30:44.880 --> 01:30:47.439 And so that was the impetus behind doing that book. 1629 01:30:47.439 --> 01:30:49.399 It was a movie I love, a movie that I 1630 01:30:49.399 --> 01:30:54.119 think the script is fantastic. I also had because Bob 1631 01:30:54.199 --> 01:30:58.159 Jones had been so kind to me when I was 1632 01:30:58.239 --> 01:31:01.560 just a sort of lowly PhD stud and he was 1633 01:31:01.640 --> 01:31:06.640 so screwed over by the attribution of that script that 1634 01:31:06.800 --> 01:31:09.399 I felt like I have no power to go to Hollywood, 1635 01:31:09.439 --> 01:31:11.920 whoever owns being there now I think Warner Brothers and 1636 01:31:12.039 --> 01:31:15.640 say put Bubs Jones's name in the titles. But I 1637 01:31:15.640 --> 01:31:18.039 could put out a book with Bob Jones's name on 1638 01:31:18.039 --> 01:31:21.720 the cover and give back a little to him that way, 1639 01:31:21.760 --> 01:31:25.000 which I felt like he would deserve. The book came 1640 01:31:25.039 --> 01:31:27.680 out six weeks after he died. I was a little 1641 01:31:27.720 --> 01:31:29.560 bit bummed out about that, but I had a nice 1642 01:31:29.600 --> 01:31:32.399 chat with some of his daughters and they were happy 1643 01:31:32.399 --> 01:31:34.720 about it. That's not why I did it. But when 1644 01:31:34.760 --> 01:31:38.039 something like that can happen as well, it's a nice 1645 01:31:38.079 --> 01:31:40.079 side effect or a nice benefit. 1646 01:31:40.520 --> 01:31:43.960 The idea of looking at the script and the evolution 1647 01:31:44.119 --> 01:31:47.479 of those versus what we see. That's why bread and Butter. 1648 01:31:47.560 --> 01:31:50.560 I love that kind of stuff, absolutely, sign just to 1649 01:31:50.640 --> 01:31:52.800 track those changes. And now I'm curious about the other 1650 01:31:52.840 --> 01:31:57.039 two scripts. Were they more intron between to those drafts, 1651 01:31:57.079 --> 01:31:58.760 to those Jones drafts. 1652 01:31:59.279 --> 01:32:01.920 The other two would have been two other Kazinski drafts. 1653 01:32:02.039 --> 01:32:05.720 He wrote one right after the book came out. And 1654 01:32:06.319 --> 01:32:09.079 it's funny because I get some of this wrong in 1655 01:32:09.119 --> 01:32:12.319 the Ashby book, because I was researching all the films 1656 01:32:13.039 --> 01:32:15.720 and I can only spend so many days in the 1657 01:32:15.840 --> 01:32:19.079 archives on being There or the Landlord or whatever. But 1658 01:32:19.119 --> 01:32:21.239 then when I went back to the hal Ashby archives 1659 01:32:21.239 --> 01:32:23.680 and then got in touch with some of the Kazinski archives, 1660 01:32:24.439 --> 01:32:27.479 I discovered that he was teaching a class at Yale 1661 01:32:28.239 --> 01:32:33.159 in nineteen seventy one on screenplay adaptation, and he used 1662 01:32:33.199 --> 01:32:38.760 being There as his case study in the class, and 1663 01:32:38.840 --> 01:32:42.079 so he wrote a script adaptation of his own book. 1664 01:32:42.239 --> 01:32:43.760 I'm going to get this date wrong, but I think 1665 01:32:43.840 --> 01:32:47.640 nineteen seventy one early seventies anyway, and it was a 1666 01:32:47.960 --> 01:32:50.279 I think it was a summer school course at Yale 1667 01:32:50.479 --> 01:32:56.520 on yeah screen adaptations, and it was around that time 1668 01:32:56.560 --> 01:33:01.399 that Ashby and Sellers were interesting. It's a great story 1669 01:33:02.039 --> 01:33:05.279 in talks about making the film, but neither of them 1670 01:33:05.760 --> 01:33:09.479 had the wherewithal to get it made, and Kazinsky had 1671 01:33:10.039 --> 01:33:12.520 heavier hitters in mind. I can't remember right now, but 1672 01:33:12.640 --> 01:33:15.680 there were bigger named directors that he was trying to 1673 01:33:15.720 --> 01:33:22.479 get to make the film back then. And then when Brownsberg, 1674 01:33:22.520 --> 01:33:25.359 who was friends with Ashby and Kasinski, brought them together 1675 01:33:25.479 --> 01:33:28.199 after coming home and they went through all of the 1676 01:33:28.239 --> 01:33:31.840 process of getting Lauramar to agree to make the film, 1677 01:33:32.359 --> 01:33:35.640 Kazinsky submitted another draft and that's the one that's in 1678 01:33:35.680 --> 01:33:39.359 the book, and that's the one that's wild, I think, 1679 01:33:39.720 --> 01:33:43.359 because it's got all of the cutaways to social protests, 1680 01:33:43.399 --> 01:33:47.199 and it's got backstories of a lot of the minor characters, 1681 01:33:47.239 --> 01:33:50.840 the lawyer, and a lot more stuff with the Secret 1682 01:33:50.880 --> 01:33:56.319 Service agents and whimsical dialogue that they have as they're 1683 01:33:56.439 --> 01:33:59.640 going around Rams mentioned there's a lot more people trying 1684 01:33:59.640 --> 01:34:04.720 to find out chances background and it gets goofy and hygiency, 1685 01:34:05.479 --> 01:34:07.319 and that one is still set in New York, which 1686 01:34:07.359 --> 01:34:10.319 is where the novel was set. And then in the meantime, 1687 01:34:10.359 --> 01:34:12.039 and I get this a little bit wrong. In the 1688 01:34:12.439 --> 01:34:16.479 Ashby book, Mike Caller had gone to d C and 1689 01:34:16.560 --> 01:34:20.199 he came back and said to Ashby, we have to 1690 01:34:20.239 --> 01:34:23.199 move it to DC. I always thought that was Jones's decision, 1691 01:34:23.279 --> 01:34:27.159 but it was actually Mike Haller's idea because he saw 1692 01:34:27.199 --> 01:34:32.399 this the corridors of power right now in late seventies 1693 01:34:32.840 --> 01:34:38.119 America visually are going to be more symbolically represented by 1694 01:34:38.399 --> 01:34:42.680 the Capitol Building and the disparity of wealth in Washington, 1695 01:34:42.760 --> 01:34:46.560 d C just still there but was massive, as you 1696 01:34:46.600 --> 01:34:50.199 see in the film. And so Kazinski actually wrote another 1697 01:34:50.279 --> 01:34:56.600 script in the summer of seventy eight where he cut 1698 01:34:56.600 --> 01:35:00.279 out all of that social unrest, and he did said 1699 01:35:00.319 --> 01:35:05.800 it in Washington d C at their request. It's his 1700 01:35:05.840 --> 01:35:09.399 first and his third draft that I also wanted to include. 1701 01:35:09.600 --> 01:35:13.399 But then even after that third draft, Ashby has said 1702 01:35:13.399 --> 01:35:15.399 in a bunch of interviews like he wasn't feeling it. 1703 01:35:15.640 --> 01:35:19.000 He said, it's really interesting that he felt like Kazinsky 1704 01:35:19.079 --> 01:35:22.279 was afraid of his protagonist because he kept writing more 1705 01:35:22.319 --> 01:35:27.479 and more about everything else except chance, and Kazinsky was 1706 01:35:27.520 --> 01:35:31.039 also getting really frustrated because he wanted to write another 1707 01:35:31.079 --> 01:35:35.720 novel because that's what he was really and so I 1708 01:35:35.720 --> 01:35:40.239 don't know how amicable the split was after the film 1709 01:35:40.279 --> 01:35:43.239 came out and was such a success, because innc he 1710 01:35:43.359 --> 01:35:45.640 was I don't know much about him, but he was 1711 01:35:45.680 --> 01:35:49.800 one of these kind of literary celebrities. When he's going 1712 01:35:49.840 --> 01:35:52.039 to Studio fifty four and showing up on the Tonight 1713 01:35:52.039 --> 01:35:54.880 Show all the time acting in Reds. He was just 1714 01:35:55.479 --> 01:35:57.640 happy to be in the spotlight. So once the film 1715 01:35:57.640 --> 01:36:00.520 came out and was celebrated, he was happy to go 1716 01:36:00.560 --> 01:36:03.720 out and publicize as much as he could and take 1717 01:36:03.760 --> 01:36:06.560 a lot of credit for it, of course, but he 1718 01:36:06.640 --> 01:36:10.880 definitely stepped away late summer of seventy eight, and that's 1719 01:36:10.920 --> 01:36:14.479 when a should be brought in Jones and he did 1720 01:36:14.560 --> 01:36:18.640 the two drafts, So he did one by December, and 1721 01:36:18.680 --> 01:36:23.439 then he and Ashby met over Christmas and Jones rewrote 1722 01:36:23.439 --> 01:36:26.760 it based on that meeting for January, and they started 1723 01:36:26.760 --> 01:36:27.760 shooting right after that. 1724 01:36:28.399 --> 01:36:31.960 I found it interesting too that even into those later 1725 01:36:32.119 --> 01:36:36.359 drafts that Kazinski still wasn't on board. It sounded like 1726 01:36:36.479 --> 01:36:38.640 with Peter Seller, so that he was still writing a 1727 01:36:38.720 --> 01:36:43.279 much younger, more handsome Chance, just like taking Warren Baby 1728 01:36:43.399 --> 01:36:45.960 from Shampool and putting him into being there. 1729 01:36:46.760 --> 01:36:51.000 I think he wanted Ryan O'Neill, Robert Redford one of 1730 01:36:51.039 --> 01:36:53.600 these guys, and I get it. In the book, Chance 1731 01:36:53.760 --> 01:36:56.279 is like a football player or something, and he's big, 1732 01:36:56.319 --> 01:36:59.920 and he's strong, and he's vira or appears to be. 1733 01:37:00.800 --> 01:37:03.800 And that's part of his appeal too in the book, 1734 01:37:03.840 --> 01:37:06.359 that people are going to look at that kind of 1735 01:37:07.199 --> 01:37:11.399 and a waspy, tight East Coast wasp figure. And of 1736 01:37:11.439 --> 01:37:15.479 course he's brilliant, and I think it's one of those 1737 01:37:16.439 --> 01:37:20.560 moments of movie magic. I don't think from everything I've read, 1738 01:37:21.399 --> 01:37:25.720 I think Ashby was being a sound guy. He was 1739 01:37:25.800 --> 01:37:31.439 also probably experimenting with his newfound power after coming home, 1740 01:37:31.479 --> 01:37:35.800 and I like the way this feels. But he said 1741 01:37:36.039 --> 01:37:39.239 always interview after interview, I made a deal with Sellers 1742 01:37:40.000 --> 01:37:44.079 if I make this fill he's Chance and I respect 1743 01:37:44.119 --> 01:37:47.039 him for that, and it made the movie different. It's 1744 01:37:47.079 --> 01:37:52.000 a whole different experience to have him be a middle 1745 01:37:52.039 --> 01:37:57.880 aged He's almost a sad sack who's holding it together 1746 01:37:58.119 --> 01:38:02.600 because of his simple mindness. But Obviously by the end, 1747 01:38:02.640 --> 01:38:06.359 when we get to that deathbed scene with rand you 1748 01:38:06.439 --> 01:38:09.840 can see there's a pain in him that I don't think. 1749 01:38:10.439 --> 01:38:13.000 I can't imagine Ryan O'Neill, as much as I like him, 1750 01:38:13.000 --> 01:38:15.720 and what's up, Doc or whatever, he's not going to 1751 01:38:15.800 --> 01:38:18.680 pull off that deathbed scene with the one tier and 1752 01:38:18.720 --> 01:38:23.359 the red eyes and just I've seen it before, Robert. 1753 01:38:24.359 --> 01:38:28.319 It's wonderful, and the age also gives it a kind 1754 01:38:28.319 --> 01:38:32.760 of I don't know it somehow makes the hanging out 1755 01:38:32.800 --> 01:38:36.840 with the Soviet ambassador more believable, going on talk shows 1756 01:38:36.880 --> 01:38:39.439 and that kind of stuff. So it works in the book. 1757 01:38:39.479 --> 01:38:42.640 But I'm glad they stuck with Sellers. But yeah, Kazinski, 1758 01:38:42.640 --> 01:38:45.399 you're right. He was resistant to it and continued to 1759 01:38:45.439 --> 01:38:50.479 write him almost specifically as young and broad shouldered and 1760 01:38:50.840 --> 01:38:53.000 that sort of thing in the scripts, which is probably 1761 01:38:53.880 --> 01:38:56.279 another bone of contention with Ashby. 1762 01:38:57.000 --> 01:39:02.720 Well, he couldn't elect anyone younger than sixties president done anyway. 1763 01:39:02.800 --> 01:39:05.159 Sixty would be a fountain of view of these days. 1764 01:39:06.000 --> 01:39:09.000 When does the Richard Dyser character, When does the doctor 1765 01:39:09.359 --> 01:39:10.520 enter into the mix? 1766 01:39:11.399 --> 01:39:17.880 He's definitely in the Kazinski draft, that's in my book. 1767 01:39:18.039 --> 01:39:22.199 So the first one he submitted to the production. He's 1768 01:39:22.239 --> 01:39:25.720 an important character in that. I think he's in the 1769 01:39:26.560 --> 01:39:28.119 I'd have to have a look. I can get back 1770 01:39:28.159 --> 01:39:30.399 to you. I think he's in the first draft that 1771 01:39:30.439 --> 01:39:33.880 he did in seventy one as well, because I think 1772 01:39:33.920 --> 01:39:37.319 he changed the second half of the story so much, 1773 01:39:37.319 --> 01:39:41.840 because Rand pretty much disappears from the book halfway through, 1774 01:39:42.279 --> 01:39:44.119 and the ending of the book is so much different, 1775 01:39:45.039 --> 01:39:51.760 so that notion of somebody inside the house having to 1776 01:39:51.800 --> 01:39:55.439 be suspicious, which I think is important. I've been thinking. 1777 01:39:55.479 --> 01:39:57.840 I watched it again the last couple of days, and 1778 01:39:57.880 --> 01:40:00.479 I hadn't watched for a little while, and every time 1779 01:40:00.520 --> 01:40:04.039 I watch it, my reading of it changes a little. 1780 01:40:04.079 --> 01:40:07.960 As I'm sure has happened with you in films, you 1781 01:40:08.039 --> 01:40:12.520 can't believe the story, you just can't believe it. And 1782 01:40:13.399 --> 01:40:18.760 if the doctor's not there suspicious, of course you're going 1783 01:40:18.800 --> 01:40:21.960 to have the president investigating him because he's some guide 1784 01:40:21.960 --> 01:40:24.640 who just showed up. And then when the press finds out, 1785 01:40:24.640 --> 01:40:27.039 they're going to investigate, who's this guy who just showed up? 1786 01:40:27.720 --> 01:40:31.600 But for Alan B he has a personal connection and 1787 01:40:31.680 --> 01:40:35.680 I think he has to be there for the audience 1788 01:40:36.800 --> 01:40:41.560 to accept this. He's the outlier of the whole story 1789 01:40:42.079 --> 01:40:44.920 that makes the story believable, you know what I mean? 1790 01:40:44.960 --> 01:40:49.479 Does that make sense? And without him, I think the 1791 01:40:49.560 --> 01:40:52.880 audience would have a harder time accepting it because somebody 1792 01:40:53.520 --> 01:40:57.079 has to see that there's something going on here. Would 1793 01:40:57.119 --> 01:40:57.960 you agree with us? 1794 01:40:58.039 --> 01:41:01.960 I would. It feels like he he's the little kid 1795 01:41:02.000 --> 01:41:06.000 from the EMPERORSU closed or something, but he can't scream 1796 01:41:06.039 --> 01:41:09.760 about it because everybody else is playing along so much 1797 01:41:10.279 --> 01:41:12.640 that it feels like he would get in trouble if 1798 01:41:12.680 --> 01:41:13.039 he did. 1799 01:41:13.319 --> 01:41:14.960 If he just was like, look at what you're doing, 1800 01:41:15.039 --> 01:41:18.199 look at what you're talking about. Yeah, So why do 1801 01:41:18.239 --> 01:41:19.880 you think when we ask you? Because I was wondering 1802 01:41:19.920 --> 01:41:23.399 this on this recent rewatch, I've wondered it before, But 1803 01:41:24.239 --> 01:41:25.680 why does he let him get away with it? 1804 01:41:25.720 --> 01:41:26.279 At the end. 1805 01:41:27.279 --> 01:41:29.560 We talked a little bit about that in our discussion, 1806 01:41:29.640 --> 01:41:31.800 and one of the things that I was thinking was 1807 01:41:32.760 --> 01:41:36.520 Chance coming to him and saying Eve is not going 1808 01:41:36.560 --> 01:41:40.600 to close up the house, and basically and also asking 1809 01:41:41.359 --> 01:41:44.079 are you done here? Basically it sounds like he's about 1810 01:41:44.119 --> 01:41:48.560 to kick the doctor out right, but then maybe he'll 1811 01:41:48.640 --> 01:41:51.640 let him stay, don't It's almost like the doctor is 1812 01:41:51.680 --> 01:41:53.840 in the same position the Chance was at the beginning 1813 01:41:53.880 --> 01:41:54.479 of the film. 1814 01:41:55.279 --> 01:41:56.359 Oh nice. 1815 01:41:56.479 --> 01:41:59.399 I like that because that old man dies, so that's 1816 01:41:59.439 --> 01:42:00.920 his old man who's died. 1817 01:42:02.640 --> 01:42:04.640 It fits with the tone of the film and it's 1818 01:42:04.720 --> 01:42:07.079 I think again, part of what makes it all believable 1819 01:42:07.319 --> 01:42:12.880 is that Alan b his curiosity is tweaked almost from 1820 01:42:12.920 --> 01:42:16.439 the beginning, and Dysart's performance is really great. It's all 1821 01:42:16.479 --> 01:42:18.640 in his expressions, in the way he looks at Chance, 1822 01:42:19.199 --> 01:42:22.920 and compared to all the craziness of the CIA and 1823 01:42:22.960 --> 01:42:27.439 the FBI investigations in the press, his is very gentle, 1824 01:42:28.239 --> 01:42:30.239 and I think it comes out of a kind of 1825 01:42:30.279 --> 01:42:34.479 paternalistic feeling he has towards Rand, his patient, who seems 1826 01:42:34.479 --> 01:42:37.520 to also be his friend. He goes to the dinner 1827 01:42:37.560 --> 01:42:41.239 with them and this sort of stuff, and he has 1828 01:42:41.319 --> 01:42:43.800 to maybe as a man of science, I don't know, 1829 01:42:43.920 --> 01:42:48.960 has to gratch this itch. But in the meantime, as 1830 01:42:49.000 --> 01:42:52.560 he's doing that, both Rand, Benjamin Rand, and Ivrand tell 1831 01:42:52.640 --> 01:42:56.640 him at different points, this guy makes me happy. I 1832 01:42:56.920 --> 01:43:01.600 feel good with him. Brand says his dying right, this 1833 01:43:01.760 --> 01:43:04.439 is the calmest or the happiest or something I've felt 1834 01:43:04.520 --> 01:43:08.800 in a long time. And I think that taps into 1835 01:43:08.880 --> 01:43:13.760 Alanbe's sense of concern and friendship as well. If I 1836 01:43:13.880 --> 01:43:17.119 tell them the truth, I'm gonna take this away from them, 1837 01:43:17.399 --> 01:43:21.520 and that makes it very gentle. Which the whole film, 1838 01:43:22.359 --> 01:43:24.479 not the whole film, but much of the film is 1839 01:43:24.560 --> 01:43:27.840 like this kind of fable and it fits into that tone. 1840 01:43:27.840 --> 01:43:31.840 And I think, did you see any other potential missteps 1841 01:43:32.000 --> 01:43:35.680 in those earlier drafts, even the Jones drafts before they 1842 01:43:35.720 --> 01:43:39.680 got to the final film, other things where you're just like, ah, 1843 01:43:39.760 --> 01:43:42.039 I'm really glad they avoided that trap. 1844 01:43:42.279 --> 01:43:46.880 I like the way Ashby brings in like a smidgeon 1845 01:43:46.960 --> 01:43:52.359 of sort of race politics. Enough she says it sure 1846 01:43:52.439 --> 01:43:54.279 is a white man's world if this guy is gonna 1847 01:43:54.279 --> 01:43:58.039 be on TV. And that great piece of graffiti when 1848 01:43:58.079 --> 01:44:02.520 he first hears the house, it's magnificent, and it's just there. 1849 01:44:02.520 --> 01:44:05.279 It's like a commentary on the film, which I think 1850 01:44:05.359 --> 01:44:09.359 is really important to a newest shreading I have. But 1851 01:44:09.439 --> 01:44:12.680 we can come back to that. Kazinski keeps changing her 1852 01:44:13.600 --> 01:44:17.680 and so there's also a German maid. I don't want 1853 01:44:17.680 --> 01:44:21.560 to say inga, but it might be ingrid, sorry, And 1854 01:44:21.760 --> 01:44:25.439 from draft to draft, from the original book, who the 1855 01:44:25.520 --> 01:44:30.079 maid is in the story keeps changing, and in one 1856 01:44:30.119 --> 01:44:34.880 of the drafts he actually gives the old man a 1857 01:44:34.960 --> 01:44:36.880 deathbed scene. I think this might be the what's in 1858 01:44:36.920 --> 01:44:42.239 the book where he tells Chance that Chance is the 1859 01:44:42.279 --> 01:44:45.960 son of the old man and a previous black who 1860 01:44:46.000 --> 01:44:49.159 has since died, so that Chance, all of a sudden 1861 01:44:50.039 --> 01:44:54.039 is like the biracial product of forbidden love, because that 1862 01:44:54.079 --> 01:44:57.720 would have been whatever in the forties or fifties or 1863 01:44:57.760 --> 01:45:01.079 something like that. I think that was a mistake, and 1864 01:45:01.159 --> 01:45:05.199 I appreciate like what Kazinsky's trying to do there and 1865 01:45:05.560 --> 01:45:09.600 trying to like break some taboos or push the story 1866 01:45:09.600 --> 01:45:13.479 in different directions, but I don't think that's the story 1867 01:45:13.680 --> 01:45:16.920 that being there is about, and that just whether his 1868 01:45:17.000 --> 01:45:19.520 mother was black or not isn't even the issue. It's 1869 01:45:19.640 --> 01:45:24.680 chances background at all, removing that enigma of it. I'd 1870 01:45:24.680 --> 01:45:29.640 call that a misstep. I think in the Jones first 1871 01:45:29.720 --> 01:45:33.760 Jones draft really a misstep because he had so much 1872 01:45:33.800 --> 01:45:36.840 work to do, and this comes at the ending, which 1873 01:45:36.880 --> 01:45:40.159 I talk about with my students. But at the ending 1874 01:45:40.199 --> 01:45:43.600 of the Kazinsi drafts, you're not always sure if rand 1875 01:45:43.640 --> 01:45:47.600 has died. Sometimes it's mentioned we don't see him die, 1876 01:45:48.279 --> 01:45:50.920 but the men who become The Pallbearers in the film 1877 01:45:51.399 --> 01:45:55.680 are always off site, somewhere in some kind of ancient 1878 01:45:55.760 --> 01:46:01.079 smoking room around a fireplace, and in this his first draft, 1879 01:46:01.880 --> 01:46:06.359 he kept them off site. He did include the funeral, 1880 01:46:07.239 --> 01:46:10.199 so you have the President giving the eulogy and you 1881 01:46:10.319 --> 01:46:14.359 have Chance wandering off, but he still has those guys 1882 01:46:14.399 --> 01:46:18.840 off site, which some of my students actually like when 1883 01:46:18.880 --> 01:46:21.119 they get to that, because they feel like it creates 1884 01:46:21.119 --> 01:46:25.960 a greater mystery and they feel like having the puppet 1885 01:46:26.000 --> 01:46:30.760 masters the Pallbears is a little on the nose, which 1886 01:46:30.800 --> 01:46:33.279 I that's a sort of fair reading. But I like 1887 01:46:33.359 --> 01:46:36.239 the centrality of the location of it all at the end, 1888 01:46:36.279 --> 01:46:40.119 and I love the way again editing Ashby does that 1889 01:46:40.319 --> 01:46:43.439 cross cut editing, and the way that the President's voice 1890 01:46:44.319 --> 01:46:47.800 hangs over it all, and the acoustic depth from when 1891 01:46:47.840 --> 01:46:51.159 we cut. There's four different volumes, maybe five. I was 1892 01:46:51.199 --> 01:46:54.319 trying to listen if when he says life is a 1893 01:46:54.319 --> 01:46:56.279 state of mind at the end, after he's dunked the 1894 01:46:56.399 --> 01:46:59.560 umbrella in, they'd put some reverb on that or something. 1895 01:46:59.600 --> 01:47:04.119 It sounds like another I don't know volume level. Then 1896 01:47:04.560 --> 01:47:08.600 you have President, you have even Allen b you have 1897 01:47:08.640 --> 01:47:10.920 the Pallbearers and you have Chance, and those are all 1898 01:47:10.960 --> 01:47:14.000 four different volumes of his speech. Then I think that 1899 01:47:14.079 --> 01:47:15.840 life of the state of mind, Life is a state 1900 01:47:15.880 --> 01:47:18.640 of Mind is a fifth volume, and just that kind 1901 01:47:18.680 --> 01:47:22.239 of subtle sound mixing is magnifics. 1902 01:47:23.640 --> 01:47:26.279 That was interesting. The whole idea of keeping them off site. 1903 01:47:26.319 --> 01:47:30.079 I almost wonder if the idea of the that looks 1904 01:47:30.119 --> 01:47:34.119 like an Illuminati temple with the big eyeball. I'm like, okay, 1905 01:47:34.199 --> 01:47:36.560 is this kind of playing into These guys are in 1906 01:47:36.640 --> 01:47:38.800 power and they've been in power for as long as 1907 01:47:38.800 --> 01:47:41.600 this country has been around. Like plying back to the 1908 01:47:41.640 --> 01:47:43.760 Mason's I think. 1909 01:47:43.640 --> 01:47:45.600 There's a YouTube video about that way. 1910 01:47:45.600 --> 01:47:47.920 I wouldn't be surprised seeking down that rabbit. 1911 01:47:48.000 --> 01:47:51.279 Local people want to go down at. Yeah, being there 1912 01:47:51.439 --> 01:47:54.199 is an example that the illuminat and it's a movie man, 1913 01:47:54.680 --> 01:47:56.399 but yeah, Matt video is out there. 1914 01:47:56.800 --> 01:47:59.159 You're talking about your new reading as far as race goes, 1915 01:47:59.279 --> 01:48:02.239 whether you're thinking these days, well so much about race, 1916 01:48:02.279 --> 01:48:05.760 but the race feeds into it. So one of the 1917 01:48:06.159 --> 01:48:10.439 big kind of criticisms of the film still is the 1918 01:48:10.479 --> 01:48:14.960 blooper ending. And so if your listeners don't know the 1919 01:48:14.960 --> 01:48:18.960 film ends on this real like elegaic, this beautiful spare 1920 01:48:19.000 --> 01:48:20.319 piano and Chance. 1921 01:48:20.039 --> 01:48:25.359 Walks on water out of nowhere, like there's nothing leading 1922 01:48:25.399 --> 01:48:28.239 you to believe that this is even a possibility. And 1923 01:48:28.359 --> 01:48:32.680 it's beautiful and it's cinematic, and I write about it 1924 01:48:32.680 --> 01:48:36.880 in the first Ashley book gets all of the imaginations 1925 01:48:36.920 --> 01:48:42.840 of everybody involves come together in this magnificent moment, and 1926 01:48:42.880 --> 01:48:46.279 then you get a black screen, a little bit of 1927 01:48:46.680 --> 01:48:50.800 old school TV fuzz and then the silly bloopers of 1928 01:48:50.960 --> 01:48:55.439 Peter Seller's flubbing his lines, and a lot of people 1929 01:48:55.479 --> 01:48:57.520 hate it. And if you go on YouTube, I was 1930 01:48:57.560 --> 01:49:00.920 looking at it today you can see the original film 1931 01:49:00.960 --> 01:49:04.399 the ending, which is also available on maybe on the 1932 01:49:04.560 --> 01:49:09.800 criterions blu ray. So it's the ending when Chances off 1933 01:49:10.039 --> 01:49:12.960 in the woods and Eve has come looking for him, 1934 01:49:13.000 --> 01:49:14.920 and she says, Chauncey, I was looking for you. I 1935 01:49:14.960 --> 01:49:17.079 was looking for you too, Eve, and they kiss and 1936 01:49:17.119 --> 01:49:20.000 they walk off and they fill them with that and 1937 01:49:20.039 --> 01:49:23.600 then it went. It was going to go into just 1938 01:49:23.720 --> 01:49:26.680 the credits with some background sounds, and you can also 1939 01:49:26.720 --> 01:49:30.920 see this on YouTube, some TV sounds in the background, 1940 01:49:31.279 --> 01:49:35.760 but then the piano continues, and so down in the comments, 1941 01:49:35.800 --> 01:49:38.079 everyone was I can't believe they didn't keep this ending. 1942 01:49:38.119 --> 01:49:40.000 I hope in future DVDs they get rid of that 1943 01:49:40.039 --> 01:49:43.359 stupid blooper ending. It breaks the spell, which is what 1944 01:49:43.399 --> 01:49:47.199 Peter Seller said to it, and Ashby defended it. He 1945 01:49:47.239 --> 01:49:50.239 continued to defend the blooper ending because it's in a 1946 01:49:50.319 --> 01:49:52.119 letter that he wrote I put in one of the books. 1947 01:49:52.159 --> 01:49:54.640 He went to the cinema a bunch of times and 1948 01:49:54.720 --> 01:49:57.680 watched it, and he said, every time I watched it, 1949 01:49:57.760 --> 01:50:02.079 everybody stayed at the end to watch the and it 1950 01:50:02.119 --> 01:50:04.800 wasn't their intention, but they got to see the names 1951 01:50:04.800 --> 01:50:07.680 of all the people who made the movie. That's interesting. 1952 01:50:07.960 --> 01:50:11.000 But I was thinking about this breaks the spell, and 1953 01:50:11.279 --> 01:50:13.079 this is a film that's come back. Maybe this is 1954 01:50:13.119 --> 01:50:16.439 one reason why you're talking about on your podcast. Because 1955 01:50:16.600 --> 01:50:23.880 of current and recent political situations, Chance should not be 1956 01:50:24.000 --> 01:50:27.479 a leader of the free world. Chance should not be 1957 01:50:27.520 --> 01:50:32.239 walking on water. And I think I've always thought that 1958 01:50:32.279 --> 01:50:34.720 the one of the neat tricks that the film plays 1959 01:50:34.800 --> 01:50:38.439 is that in the opening sequence, it tricks the audience 1960 01:50:38.520 --> 01:50:42.720 into believing that Chance is a rich guy, because we 1961 01:50:42.760 --> 01:50:46.720 have no dialogue and we have him in his silk 1962 01:50:46.760 --> 01:50:51.079 pajamas and his beautiful estate, and yes he's doing labor, 1963 01:50:51.159 --> 01:50:52.960 but he's doing it in the way that a retired 1964 01:50:53.000 --> 01:50:55.720 gentleman might tend to his gardens in his old cars 1965 01:50:55.760 --> 01:51:00.359 and stuff like that. And then we realize, oh he's Chance. Ooh, 1966 01:51:00.359 --> 01:51:03.279 it tricked us. And that's very important, I think, because 1967 01:51:04.000 --> 01:51:07.119 even though we're only tricked for five minutes, that helps 1968 01:51:07.159 --> 01:51:11.000 us to understand how everyone else gets tricked throughout the film. 1969 01:51:11.680 --> 01:51:13.720 And as we watch it, and we watch all these 1970 01:51:13.800 --> 01:51:17.760 kind of idiots around him, and we were like, how 1971 01:51:17.800 --> 01:51:21.199 could these people believe it? We also fall in love 1972 01:51:21.199 --> 01:51:26.520 with him again as Chance, as this sort of furial 1973 01:51:26.680 --> 01:51:30.359 wisdom maker, and so when he walks on water at 1974 01:51:30.359 --> 01:51:34.720 the end, we're like, wow, he could do it. He 1975 01:51:34.760 --> 01:51:37.640 could do it, and we've been tricked by it again, 1976 01:51:38.560 --> 01:51:41.800 and I feel like the spell should be broken and 1977 01:51:41.840 --> 01:51:47.239 we should ask ourselves, why does a Chance appeal to us? 1978 01:51:48.079 --> 01:51:52.079 Because he does, He's in It's Peter Sell's performance is fantastic, 1979 01:51:52.479 --> 01:51:56.239 dialogue's great. There's all kinds of reasons, but I think 1980 01:51:56.960 --> 01:52:02.199 the film taps into something deeper in our own I'm 1981 01:52:02.239 --> 01:52:04.479 probably saying too much, reading too much into this, but 1982 01:52:04.600 --> 01:52:06.239 this is what occurred to me. Over the last couple 1983 01:52:06.279 --> 01:52:08.680 of days. It taps into a kind of a desire 1984 01:52:09.000 --> 01:52:15.439 for that simple wise man to save us or something 1985 01:52:15.520 --> 01:52:18.039 like that, and you can see I'm still trying to 1986 01:52:18.079 --> 01:52:21.279 figure this out. But and that spell should be broken 1987 01:52:22.119 --> 01:52:26.439 because that's dangerous. Do you know what chance running the 1988 01:52:26.439 --> 01:52:29.199 country some people do. 1989 01:52:30.079 --> 01:52:30.680 Yeah. 1990 01:52:30.840 --> 01:52:33.399 The other thing I really love watching it again this time, 1991 01:52:33.479 --> 01:52:37.079 if you don't mind, is I really fell for Shirley MacLean. 1992 01:52:37.920 --> 01:52:41.319 I've always liked her in it, but she's so good 1993 01:52:41.399 --> 01:52:44.720 and understated. And there's a scene. It's the scene when 1994 01:52:44.760 --> 01:52:47.239 she first kisses him and they're standing in the hallway, 1995 01:52:48.119 --> 01:52:52.880 and that scene just feels like such a delicate seventies 1996 01:52:53.359 --> 01:52:57.920 movie moment, and they play it so well, except for 1997 01:52:57.960 --> 01:52:59.920 the scene where she's in the bedroom on the floor, 1998 01:53:00.760 --> 01:53:03.079 which I like, I get hot and cold on that scene, 1999 01:53:03.239 --> 01:53:06.239 the masturbation scene. But throughout the rest of the film 2000 01:53:06.239 --> 01:53:09.600 she's just so understated, and she grows into it so much. 2001 01:53:09.680 --> 01:53:12.920 From the scene in the limousine where she's like a 2002 01:53:12.920 --> 01:53:15.399 little worried she's gonna get sued, she doesn't know what's 2003 01:53:15.439 --> 01:53:18.000 going on, and then as she just develops this fondness 2004 01:53:18.000 --> 01:53:22.439 for him, she acts it so well, and I really 2005 01:53:22.760 --> 01:53:26.199 watching it this time felt like what I was saying 2006 01:53:26.199 --> 01:53:29.119 about Alan b like we need him as the skeptic, 2007 01:53:29.960 --> 01:53:35.159 but we need her not as the overly enthusiastic Rand 2008 01:53:35.159 --> 01:53:36.720 and the president and all these people who are like 2009 01:53:36.840 --> 01:53:39.840 willing to jump onto Chauncey, but just someone who sees 2010 01:53:40.800 --> 01:53:43.479 this gentleness. It's probably part of why we fall for 2011 01:53:43.560 --> 01:53:47.760 him again because she's so good. But her performance is 2012 01:53:47.840 --> 01:53:51.439 just really lovely. And I think I got in previous 2013 01:53:51.560 --> 01:53:56.720 viewings so caught up in Sellers and Jack Warden, who 2014 01:53:56.760 --> 01:53:59.560 I always love, all these the kind of hyjinks of 2015 01:53:59.600 --> 01:54:05.000 it that sometimes you miss how quiet and really restrained 2016 01:54:05.000 --> 01:54:06.319 her performances. 2017 01:54:06.720 --> 01:54:08.399 What are you working on these days? 2018 01:54:08.880 --> 01:54:14.560 I have a couple projects. One is in line with 2019 01:54:14.680 --> 01:54:18.640 this stuff, and it's a book about well, I hope 2020 01:54:18.680 --> 01:54:22.840 it'll be a book about cinematography in the seventies, and 2021 01:54:22.920 --> 01:54:27.399 so I want to talk about all these great figures, 2022 01:54:27.439 --> 01:54:31.680 mostly men, almost all men. That's the area of Hollywood 2023 01:54:31.720 --> 01:54:37.039 production that's still incredibly dominated by men. But Haskell Wexler, 2024 01:54:37.079 --> 01:54:39.920 who I mentioned, Gordon Willis, Michael Chapman, Owen Roy's mean 2025 01:54:40.920 --> 01:54:46.079 so many more that I'm forgetting right now, Lasso, Kolbots, Jakmunville, Mosh, 2026 01:54:46.239 --> 01:54:50.960 these guys who did so much to shape the look 2027 01:54:51.119 --> 01:54:52.960 of that era. And there was a lot of great 2028 01:54:52.960 --> 01:54:57.720 stuff going on with new quiet handheld cameras, with the 2029 01:54:57.760 --> 01:55:00.239 steady cam by the middle of the decade, all that 2030 01:55:00.279 --> 01:55:03.600 sort of stuff. And how it was the cinematographers usually 2031 01:55:03.640 --> 01:55:06.479 who would go to the directors and say, hey, can 2032 01:55:06.520 --> 01:55:09.159 we try this Bill must Schigmann go into all men, 2033 01:55:09.319 --> 01:55:12.680 let's flash the film. What Yeah, but it'll look cool 2034 01:55:12.840 --> 01:55:15.880 if it works Petha, that sort of thing, and the 2035 01:55:15.920 --> 01:55:19.439 director's going for And that's another part of that collaboration 2036 01:55:19.560 --> 01:55:22.079 that we talked about at the beginning. And so that's 2037 01:55:22.319 --> 01:55:25.760 actually the I'm working on a paper right now in 2038 01:55:25.800 --> 01:55:28.399 the heat of the night, because I think that film 2039 01:55:28.600 --> 01:55:32.479 and another film, Gunge and Hesse to Build gunfilm, those 2040 01:55:32.479 --> 01:55:35.960 were two of the films that really like were the cinematographers. 2041 01:55:36.279 --> 01:55:39.079 Clinton was at his name on Gungeon Hess where they 2042 01:55:40.039 --> 01:55:45.159 decided we're going to shoot black skin in a way 2043 01:55:45.520 --> 01:55:48.279 that you can see it because there's a whole history 2044 01:55:48.279 --> 01:55:53.119 of Hollywood cinematography being geared towards whiteness, just in the 2045 01:55:53.159 --> 01:55:56.760 way it highlighted greens and reds and things like that. 2046 01:55:56.840 --> 01:56:00.000 And so both of those guys came from a black 2047 01:56:00.079 --> 01:56:02.640 and white documentary background and when they switch to color, 2048 01:56:02.640 --> 01:56:05.600 they're like, what is this? This doesn't work and I 2049 01:56:05.640 --> 01:56:09.000 want this is Sydney Partier. He's going to look good 2050 01:56:09.199 --> 01:56:13.840 in this film. And so that might be the first chapter, 2051 01:56:13.920 --> 01:56:16.359 and I'll write about Lens Flair, so a mix of 2052 01:56:16.399 --> 01:56:20.079 style and technology and the practitioners who brought it about. 2053 01:56:20.159 --> 01:56:23.600 And then the other project is veering off in a 2054 01:56:23.640 --> 01:56:29.439 different direction, and it's about male affection on screen, like 2055 01:56:29.760 --> 01:56:34.199 mostly sort of platonic male or the lack of platonic 2056 01:56:34.279 --> 01:56:37.319 male affection on screen. And that's going to be about 2057 01:56:37.399 --> 01:56:41.399 film and television but in the twenty first century. So 2058 01:56:41.479 --> 01:56:45.039 it's all kind of new area for me. But just 2059 01:56:45.079 --> 01:56:51.359 that sort of I don't know, taboo of men expressing 2060 01:56:52.039 --> 01:56:56.439 love and affection towards each other. So that's something I'm 2061 01:56:56.439 --> 01:56:59.479 really excited about. But it's definitely a new avenue of 2062 01:56:59.520 --> 01:57:00.359 research for me. 2063 01:57:00.880 --> 01:57:02.560 Yeah, that one, Thund's really daunting. 2064 01:57:03.359 --> 01:57:05.319 It is really daunting because you had to leave a 2065 01:57:05.319 --> 01:57:08.199 lot out, just even in terms of like how you 2066 01:57:08.279 --> 01:57:12.279 theorize gender and masculinity and this sort of stuff like 2067 01:57:12.479 --> 01:57:16.600 queer studies and the bromance, which is not really what 2068 01:57:16.680 --> 01:57:18.520 I want to talk about. I want to talk about 2069 01:57:19.520 --> 01:57:23.479 non community. There'll be some comedy, but just the ways 2070 01:57:23.520 --> 01:57:29.600 in which Hollywood and American indie cinema, American television prevent 2071 01:57:30.760 --> 01:57:33.520 men from doing this or mock them for doing it. 2072 01:57:34.199 --> 01:57:37.079 If that makes sense. Do you ever watch a friend 2073 01:57:37.600 --> 01:57:41.520 We show Friends barely. I really wasn't a big fan. 2074 01:57:42.359 --> 01:57:45.039 This is how I frame it for some people. There's 2075 01:57:45.039 --> 01:57:48.119 an episode where joe and this won't be in the book, 2076 01:57:48.319 --> 01:57:52.039 it might be in the introduction. Joey and Ross accidentally 2077 01:57:52.039 --> 01:57:55.960 fall asleep on the couch together and they wake up 2078 01:57:56.000 --> 01:57:57.720 and they're both like, this is the best nap I've 2079 01:57:57.760 --> 01:58:00.600 ever had in my life. And the rest of the 2080 01:58:00.640 --> 01:58:02.600 episode is them like, we should do it again. No, 2081 01:58:02.720 --> 01:58:05.399 we can't do it again, but it's the best n 2082 01:58:05.399 --> 01:58:08.520 app I've ever had in my life. I know, like 2083 01:58:08.720 --> 01:58:11.800 when we get to a certain age, naps are important, 2084 01:58:12.920 --> 01:58:15.000 and so they finally decide to do it, and they 2085 01:58:15.039 --> 01:58:16.680 wake up and they feel so good, and they look 2086 01:58:16.720 --> 01:58:19.680 up and the other friends are just standing there, arms crossed, 2087 01:58:20.000 --> 01:58:23.600 looking at them with derision. And I find that fascinating 2088 01:58:24.520 --> 01:58:29.359 because I feel like that's like in a microcosm, how 2089 01:58:29.520 --> 01:58:34.880 Hollywood treats men being affectionate with each other. So it's 2090 01:58:34.960 --> 01:58:35.640 just something like that. 2091 01:58:36.520 --> 01:58:38.399 Is there a big place for me to keep up 2092 01:58:38.399 --> 01:58:39.199 on you and your work? 2093 01:58:40.079 --> 01:58:43.319 And you have a faculty page at Trinity College. It's 2094 01:58:43.399 --> 01:58:47.520 fairly well updated. I have a YouTube channel that's been 2095 01:58:47.560 --> 01:58:51.199 dormant for about a year, but I'm about to fire 2096 01:58:51.239 --> 01:58:54.840 it up again. So that went on for about three 2097 01:58:54.960 --> 01:58:58.079 years and I'm hoping to get it started again in 2098 01:58:58.079 --> 01:59:01.079 the next couple of three weeks. Last year was very 2099 01:59:01.079 --> 01:59:04.520 busy for me, so I kept saying next week, next week, 2100 01:59:04.600 --> 01:59:07.640 and then I stopped. Sometimes I talk about my work 2101 01:59:07.680 --> 01:59:09.800 a little bit there, but that's more just talking about 2102 01:59:09.800 --> 01:59:13.720 movies and that sort of thing. But I'm on Blue Sky, 2103 01:59:14.600 --> 01:59:18.079 so I've cut the other social media ties for now. 2104 01:59:18.560 --> 01:59:20.800 If I have things come up, like if one of 2105 01:59:20.840 --> 01:59:25.199 these book projects gets accepted, I'll certainly trumpet it there. 2106 01:59:26.000 --> 01:59:28.439 Professor Hunter, thank you so much for your time. This 2107 01:59:28.520 --> 01:59:28.920 is great. 2108 01:59:29.439 --> 01:59:31.960 Thank you so much for inviting me. I really appreciate it, 2109 01:59:32.000 --> 01:59:33.119 and for reading my books. 2110 01:59:44.840 --> 01:59:46.039 There's the place. 2111 01:59:47.800 --> 01:59:55.000 I can get to where I'm safe from Mecida blues, 2112 01:59:56.720 --> 02:00:05.279 and it's green, it's quogged. Oh the trouble ball. 2113 02:00:05.640 --> 02:00:08.960 I had the bar you and love. 2114 02:00:08.760 --> 02:00:13.800 You anything I got to do, got my head shot. 2115 02:00:14.159 --> 02:00:16.119 See you keep all singing in. 2116 02:00:16.199 --> 02:00:18.600 The blue rooms. Get fucking stayed here. 2117 02:00:20.279 --> 02:00:21.720 Johnny's doded. 2118 02:00:23.119 --> 02:00:24.960 All right, we are back, and we were talking about 2119 02:00:24.960 --> 02:00:25.479 being there. 2120 02:00:26.039 --> 02:00:27.800 As far as the ending, just quick, I think he 2121 02:00:27.880 --> 02:00:30.560 had actually he was in conversation with somebody or something 2122 02:00:30.960 --> 02:00:33.079 like that and kind of said, oh, you know, at 2123 02:00:33.079 --> 02:00:35.399 this point in the movie, how could just walk on water? 2124 02:00:35.439 --> 02:00:36.960 And then it was like ding ding ding ding. You know, 2125 02:00:37.000 --> 02:00:39.560 he had that ending because he wasn't really feeling great 2126 02:00:39.560 --> 02:00:41.560 about the endings he had. But I was thinking, you know, 2127 02:00:41.640 --> 02:00:43.640 I think other people have said this, but coming home, 2128 02:00:43.720 --> 02:00:46.840 you know, like it's very similar, you know, that ending 2129 02:00:46.920 --> 02:00:49.960 of walking into water, that's very like it's kind of 2130 02:00:49.960 --> 02:00:51.720 poignant when you think about it like that. That was 2131 02:00:51.760 --> 02:00:54.039 another ending of a really amazing movie that he did. 2132 02:00:54.359 --> 02:00:56.000 That's kind of weirdly similar. 2133 02:00:56.840 --> 02:01:01.680 Speak about the ending of the film the credits where 2134 02:01:02.159 --> 02:01:07.760 they show outtake after outtake, and I had read that 2135 02:01:07.840 --> 02:01:11.800 Peter Sellers was very very unhappy about that, said, probably 2136 02:01:11.880 --> 02:01:16.039 quite rightly, you've told this really effective tale and now 2137 02:01:16.079 --> 02:01:20.319 you're cheapening it by showing some comedic out takes where 2138 02:01:20.399 --> 02:01:24.000 I can't remember my lines, and I think I read 2139 02:01:24.039 --> 02:01:27.720 that for the European release of the film, they just 2140 02:01:28.279 --> 02:01:33.960 had the credits over TV static, which makes more sense 2141 02:01:34.000 --> 02:01:35.479 if you're going to do that without it being a 2142 02:01:35.520 --> 02:01:40.119 black screen with white credits going over it. But no, 2143 02:01:40.600 --> 02:01:42.159 how did you two feel? Do you think it took 2144 02:01:42.159 --> 02:01:44.600 away from the story? It was, Yeah, HiT's there. 2145 02:01:45.439 --> 02:01:49.399 I kind of agree with Peter Sellers on that I 2146 02:01:49.399 --> 02:01:51.800 don't know about this whole it ruined the spell kind 2147 02:01:51.800 --> 02:01:54.920 of thing, but it's so different than the rest of 2148 02:01:54.960 --> 02:01:57.640 the film, and it's so much more of what I 2149 02:01:57.680 --> 02:02:03.159 associate with comedies, like very big comedies like big as 2150 02:02:03.199 --> 02:02:07.359 an brash loud. You know. Obviously the most famous one 2151 02:02:07.359 --> 02:02:08.800 for me is Cannibal Run. 2152 02:02:09.000 --> 02:02:11.800 Because if I had enough time, I would take those 2153 02:02:11.920 --> 02:02:14.359 rosary bleeds and stuck them up your nose. 2154 02:02:15.159 --> 02:02:18.199 These bleeds and those bleeds there. If you're gonna take 2155 02:02:18.279 --> 02:02:21.079 these up, take bleeds here. 2156 02:02:22.039 --> 02:02:24.000 And then you watch some of like the Paul Figue 2157 02:02:24.000 --> 02:02:25.840 stuff where you're just like, oh my god, this guy 2158 02:02:25.920 --> 02:02:30.920 actually did not include every single punchline that was set 2159 02:02:30.960 --> 02:02:33.600 on set, Like, oh, here's another twenty minutes of Melissa 2160 02:02:33.640 --> 02:02:37.600 McCarthy just riffing so and some of those are actually funny, 2161 02:02:37.680 --> 02:02:40.520 some of them aren't. But in uh, for me, like 2162 02:02:40.520 --> 02:02:42.960 Cannibal Run, some of the best end credits ever. But 2163 02:02:43.039 --> 02:02:46.279 that fits with the movie. It's not like, Oh, I 2164 02:02:46.439 --> 02:02:49.640 had this idea in my head that Dom Delaize really 2165 02:02:49.800 --> 02:02:52.720 was him. You know that he was kept in chaos, 2166 02:02:52.760 --> 02:02:56.000 you know, none of this stuff. But I do agree 2167 02:02:56.000 --> 02:02:59.239 that I think playing this over, playing the credits over 2168 02:02:59.359 --> 02:03:02.720 black or static would have been a better choice. And 2169 02:03:03.199 --> 02:03:05.239 I don't know if it cost him the Oscar, like 2170 02:03:05.520 --> 02:03:07.640 Sellers was saying, I mean, he was up against some 2171 02:03:07.720 --> 02:03:11.600 real heavy hitters that year. But yeah, I think it totally. 2172 02:03:12.039 --> 02:03:14.199 It doesn't fit with the rest of the film. What 2173 02:03:14.239 --> 02:03:15.880 do you think, in Susan, Yeah. 2174 02:03:15.680 --> 02:03:18.840 I agree, it's it's very odd choice, really odd choice. 2175 02:03:18.920 --> 02:03:21.359 I don't know what he was thinking, actually, you know, 2176 02:03:21.399 --> 02:03:23.399 to me, it's like, why don't I don't even know 2177 02:03:23.399 --> 02:03:25.079 why you'd want to see that? Really, I mean it's 2178 02:03:25.159 --> 02:03:27.359 it's like not even that amusing, you know, I mean, 2179 02:03:27.920 --> 02:03:31.520 I don't know. I guess again, maybe he felt like, oh, 2180 02:03:31.520 --> 02:03:34.359 everybody came here to see Peter Seller's cut up, you know, 2181 02:03:34.359 --> 02:03:35.800 in a way, and I just feel like I need 2182 02:03:35.800 --> 02:03:38.720 to do something to reward that people who are here 2183 02:03:38.760 --> 02:03:41.159 to see, who are Sellers fans. You know, maybe that 2184 02:03:41.239 --> 02:03:43.479 was the thought. I don't know, but I agree. Yeah, 2185 02:03:43.600 --> 02:03:44.600 I think it's a shame. 2186 02:03:45.079 --> 02:03:48.600 After two hours and seven minutes. We're going to use 2187 02:03:48.600 --> 02:03:50.319 the last two minutes to. 2188 02:03:50.239 --> 02:03:52.600 Show because you do get you immediately get to you 2189 02:03:52.640 --> 02:03:55.239 feel like you're seeing you remember then you remember, oh, 2190 02:03:55.239 --> 02:03:56.760 this is a man of a thousand voices, you know 2191 02:03:56.800 --> 02:03:59.039 what I mean, Like you just you know you immediately. Yeah, 2192 02:03:59.159 --> 02:03:59.960 So it's really. 2193 02:04:01.479 --> 02:04:05.720 Seller's performance in this is amazing. But there are certain 2194 02:04:05.800 --> 02:04:09.560 moments where I'm just like I'm in awe of the performance, 2195 02:04:09.640 --> 02:04:12.279 you know, like the use of the voice, that kind 2196 02:04:12.319 --> 02:04:15.520 of flattening of the voice, that mid Atlantic type accent. 2197 02:04:15.640 --> 02:04:17.199 You know, I think he based a lot of it 2198 02:04:17.239 --> 02:04:19.760 on Stan Laurel, so I can kind of hear that. 2199 02:04:20.319 --> 02:04:25.079 But when he's got the cigar and Rand is smoking 2200 02:04:25.119 --> 02:04:27.439 the cigar and he's given one to chance, and you 2201 02:04:27.640 --> 02:04:29.279 see him kind of like we were talking about how 2202 02:04:29.279 --> 02:04:31.840 he's imitating people, he's kind of you know, monkey see 2203 02:04:31.920 --> 02:04:35.119 monkey doo, and he still doesn't quite get it. And 2204 02:04:35.159 --> 02:04:37.920 he just keeps trying to mess with the cigar, and 2205 02:04:37.960 --> 02:04:41.239 then you get the match going and everything, and it's 2206 02:04:41.239 --> 02:04:43.119 just like he doesn't know what the hell to do. 2207 02:04:43.159 --> 02:04:45.359 And I just love that he's got that little bit 2208 02:04:45.359 --> 02:04:48.279 of puzzlement on his face. He's not playing it to 2209 02:04:48.319 --> 02:04:50.560 the rafters. You know, it's just very, very subtle. And 2210 02:04:50.600 --> 02:04:52.800 that's the thing I like the most about this performance 2211 02:04:52.880 --> 02:04:56.199 is just how subtle it is. But you know, he's 2212 02:04:56.800 --> 02:05:00.560 this charric. I mean, he's inhabiting chance throughout the entire thing, 2213 02:05:00.600 --> 02:05:03.039 and like you were saying at the end, when he's 2214 02:05:03.079 --> 02:05:06.079 not doing that anymore, when he is flipping back into 2215 02:05:06.119 --> 02:05:09.319 that character and trying to do the whole what you know, 2216 02:05:09.479 --> 02:05:12.079 Raphael's message type of thing. I don't want to be 2217 02:05:12.159 --> 02:05:14.640 reminded of that, because I've just seen this guy in 2218 02:05:14.720 --> 02:05:19.880 this body and inhabiting this character for two hours and 2219 02:05:19.920 --> 02:05:22.359 seven minutes. You know, I don't need the last two 2220 02:05:22.439 --> 02:05:25.119 minutes to be oh, and here's the guy who actually 2221 02:05:25.119 --> 02:05:27.680 did it. It's like, no, I know that he's an actor. 2222 02:05:27.720 --> 02:05:31.000 I know that he has this amazing power. I've just 2223 02:05:31.079 --> 02:05:32.560 witnessed it for all this time. 2224 02:05:33.119 --> 02:05:36.560 This is one of those films where the lead actor. 2225 02:05:37.119 --> 02:05:40.159 I watched that film and I don't see Petercella's acting. 2226 02:05:40.359 --> 02:05:44.600 I see Chance the Gardener. That's that's it. It's very 2227 02:05:44.760 --> 02:05:48.600 rare for me where I see someone that so inhabits 2228 02:05:48.720 --> 02:05:50.479 I forget that it's an actor. But this is one 2229 02:05:50.479 --> 02:05:54.439 of those rare cases. And everyone sort of talks about 2230 02:05:54.640 --> 02:05:59.359 Peter Seller's comedic genius and his pencheon for using voices. 2231 02:05:59.399 --> 02:06:02.039 I mean, I think you even use the word there mic, 2232 02:06:02.680 --> 02:06:05.960 but I think there's so much in his face, just 2233 02:06:06.000 --> 02:06:09.640 his facial expressions. It's a blank slate or where he 2234 02:06:10.680 --> 02:06:13.680 shows fear because he's being asked a question on television 2235 02:06:13.680 --> 02:06:16.520 that he doesn't know how he's going to respond, so things, Well, 2236 02:06:16.520 --> 02:06:18.039 I better bring up the garden. It's the one thing 2237 02:06:18.079 --> 02:06:20.680 I know. He just has that blank look on his face, 2238 02:06:20.720 --> 02:06:23.640 and when he says things that the audience finds funny, 2239 02:06:23.680 --> 02:06:26.640 but he's just saying completely straight face, and he looks 2240 02:06:26.680 --> 02:06:29.359 and says, oh good, and he just says that little 2241 02:06:30.000 --> 02:06:33.640 while everything about his face is perfect. That's where all 2242 02:06:33.640 --> 02:06:37.760 the acting is not just in the voice. I wanted 2243 02:06:37.800 --> 02:06:40.319 to sort of bring up one of the Peter Soller's 2244 02:06:40.399 --> 02:06:44.319 film that I watched a few months ago. I think 2245 02:06:44.319 --> 02:06:49.079 they were talking about this on the Pure Cinema podcast. 2246 02:06:49.399 --> 02:06:51.640 They went and mentioned this Peter Solla's film from nineteen 2247 02:06:51.680 --> 02:06:55.840 sixty one called Never Let Go, And this is one 2248 02:06:56.880 --> 02:06:59.000 one I hadn't even heard of. And I always sort 2249 02:06:59.000 --> 02:07:05.319 of associated Seller's with comedic roles, with maybe occasionally something 2250 02:07:05.399 --> 02:07:09.039 that was comedic with a slight sense of drama. So 2251 02:07:09.159 --> 02:07:15.840 like in Hoffman, that's no comedy, but it's not. His 2252 02:07:15.960 --> 02:07:20.479 character isn't completely sinister or anything like that. He's just creepy. 2253 02:07:21.000 --> 02:07:26.119 But in Never Let Go, he plays a really dangerous gangster, 2254 02:07:26.239 --> 02:07:29.720 a really dangerous thug. And I think there's a scene 2255 02:07:29.960 --> 02:07:32.560 late in the film where the main protagonist comes up 2256 02:07:32.600 --> 02:07:34.960 against him and they get into a fistfight and they're 2257 02:07:34.960 --> 02:07:37.159 beating the stuffing out of each other. I never thought 2258 02:07:37.199 --> 02:07:41.000 I'd say Peter Seller's action film hero, but he is 2259 02:07:41.079 --> 02:07:44.239 a nasty piece of shit, I think. I mean, if 2260 02:07:44.239 --> 02:07:46.960 you just sort of think about Michael Gambon's character and 2261 02:07:47.000 --> 02:07:51.359 the cook, the thief, he's nasty like that. But if 2262 02:07:51.359 --> 02:07:53.920 you were to say to me, can you imagine Peter 2263 02:07:54.000 --> 02:07:56.880 Seller's playing a character like that? Obvious said nah. But 2264 02:07:56.960 --> 02:08:00.640 you watch this and you realize my god, he's a 2265 02:08:00.680 --> 02:08:04.279 really seriously good actor. If he was only a man 2266 02:08:04.319 --> 02:08:07.199 of multiple voices, he wouldn't have helped that roll up. 2267 02:08:07.640 --> 02:08:10.840 But he does so well and a film that your 2268 02:08:11.079 --> 02:08:12.439 affection of Susan as well. 2269 02:08:12.640 --> 02:08:14.640 You know, he really had ambitions at that point in 2270 02:08:14.680 --> 02:08:17.239 his career to be a serious actor. He wanted He 2271 02:08:17.279 --> 02:08:19.520 was really resentful when he was in Casino Royal, the 2272 02:08:19.640 --> 02:08:22.520 Bond movie, that he wasn't really being a serious Bond. 2273 02:08:22.560 --> 02:08:22.680 You know. 2274 02:08:22.720 --> 02:08:24.399 He thought he could be a serious Bond. You know, 2275 02:08:24.439 --> 02:08:27.199 he wanted that, and so when he did that movie, 2276 02:08:27.239 --> 02:08:30.239 it was, you know, I think, a purposeful attempt to 2277 02:08:31.000 --> 02:08:33.960 move his career in a different direction, but actually got panned. 2278 02:08:34.560 --> 02:08:36.359 And I agree that I think it's very good. I 2279 02:08:36.479 --> 02:08:38.600 like it like I think it's very powerful acting. But 2280 02:08:38.640 --> 02:08:40.239 people at the time thought he was chewing up the 2281 02:08:40.239 --> 02:08:42.880 scenery like he got I don't know, for some reason, 2282 02:08:43.000 --> 02:08:45.159 it just didn't do well and they felt like like 2283 02:08:45.760 --> 02:08:48.119 he didn't go back to that because of the I 2284 02:08:48.159 --> 02:08:50.439 believe that because of the criticism he got. 2285 02:08:51.079 --> 02:08:51.279 Yeah. 2286 02:08:51.319 --> 02:08:53.880 I read something about that too, and yeah, that he 2287 02:08:53.920 --> 02:08:57.399 was pretty sad about the reactions to those roles, and 2288 02:08:57.520 --> 02:08:59.760 I don't know, Yeah, people said, yeah, that he was 2289 02:08:59.760 --> 02:09:01.600 trueing up the scenery, and then I think some people 2290 02:09:01.680 --> 02:09:04.800 weren't taking them seriously. They maybe he already had that 2291 02:09:04.880 --> 02:09:07.720 reputation as being a comedian at that time, and it's 2292 02:09:07.760 --> 02:09:09.239 just like, oh, look at what he's trying to do. 2293 02:09:09.359 --> 02:09:10.079 He can't do it. 2294 02:09:10.840 --> 02:09:13.479 He had already done like years of the Goons. So 2295 02:09:13.920 --> 02:09:14.840 how surreal is that. 2296 02:09:15.399 --> 02:09:17.479 He was an institution? I mean, if you lived, you know, 2297 02:09:17.560 --> 02:09:20.319 in that time in the UK, everybody listened to the 2298 02:09:20.359 --> 02:09:22.199 Goon Show. I mean, so that was the radio show 2299 02:09:22.520 --> 02:09:25.920 he did with Spike Milligan. And I always forget the risk. Yeah, 2300 02:09:25.920 --> 02:09:27.560 I always who I love, who I love, And I 2301 02:09:27.600 --> 02:09:30.079 never remember his name. I mean, he was just you know, 2302 02:09:30.199 --> 02:09:32.800 people knew who he was, and it was so over 2303 02:09:32.840 --> 02:09:35.359 the top. It was so cartoonish. Yeah, it's a little 2304 02:09:35.359 --> 02:09:37.359 bit like you know, Jim Carrey, you know, like it's 2305 02:09:37.399 --> 02:09:40.920 like or Robin Williams, where it's like really really cartoonish 2306 02:09:40.960 --> 02:09:42.840 and it takes a while to kind of like readjust 2307 02:09:42.880 --> 02:09:44.680 but then you're like, oh, well, and that's the thing, 2308 02:09:44.800 --> 02:09:47.960 is that kind of comedian you get so good at 2309 02:09:48.479 --> 02:09:51.079 at a range being you know, doing arrange, you become 2310 02:09:51.119 --> 02:09:54.039 an amazing actor people don't realize how hard comedy is, 2311 02:09:54.199 --> 02:09:56.680 you know, and that's why those people can pull those 2312 02:09:56.760 --> 02:09:57.399 kinds of things off. 2313 02:09:57.439 --> 02:10:01.880 He Robin Williams was able to do both parts and 2314 02:10:01.920 --> 02:10:04.720 no one bat an eyelid. I mean, I think, like 2315 02:10:05.000 --> 02:10:06.760 I don't think it was his first film, but certainly 2316 02:10:06.760 --> 02:10:09.720 his first big film in the world, according to garp 2317 02:10:10.199 --> 02:10:14.279 and he does both comedy and drama in the one film. 2318 02:10:14.279 --> 02:10:17.199 I mean, I think I heard him once say on 2319 02:10:18.600 --> 02:10:22.039 a comedy album reality what a concept. Someone calls out 2320 02:10:22.079 --> 02:10:24.560 for him to, hey, do MOREK and he says, I 2321 02:10:25.239 --> 02:10:26.960 don't do MOREK here. That's why I come here to 2322 02:10:27.000 --> 02:10:30.239 do something different. And that could really apply to his 2323 02:10:30.279 --> 02:10:33.520 whole career. And I imagine that Robin Williams would have 2324 02:10:33.560 --> 02:10:36.520 been a huge Peter Sollas fan. And it's just fortunate 2325 02:10:36.600 --> 02:10:39.760 for Robin that he got to do a range of 2326 02:10:39.840 --> 02:10:44.039 comedic and dramatic roles in such a shame that Peter 2327 02:10:44.119 --> 02:10:47.000 Solace didn't get to do as much as he would 2328 02:10:47.039 --> 02:10:50.000 have liked to have done. But just sort of coming 2329 02:10:50.039 --> 02:10:52.520 back to being there for a second where he does 2330 02:10:52.600 --> 02:10:57.479 get to do this so called serious role. I think 2331 02:10:57.560 --> 02:11:02.000 that another film which won't get the kudos that it 2332 02:11:02.800 --> 02:11:06.359 did at one time. It's not seen as being appropriate nowadays. 2333 02:11:06.399 --> 02:11:09.600 But I love Blake it Wou's filmed the Party and 2334 02:11:09.720 --> 02:11:15.520 I see a lot of Kharundai v. Bakshi his character 2335 02:11:15.560 --> 02:11:19.479 in the party, in Chance the Gardener, they're both very 2336 02:11:19.600 --> 02:11:25.239 humane people and there's chaos of sorts going on around them, 2337 02:11:25.720 --> 02:11:31.840 but they're both lovely people that don't want to cause 2338 02:11:32.239 --> 02:11:35.039 any fuss because of them. I'd like to think that 2339 02:11:35.640 --> 02:11:39.199 Chance is in if not an extension of his character 2340 02:11:39.239 --> 02:11:44.640 in the Party, but there's something of that character in 2341 02:11:44.680 --> 02:11:46.560 his character, his humanity. 2342 02:11:47.319 --> 02:11:50.800 The Chance is doing all of this without malice. You know, 2343 02:11:50.840 --> 02:11:54.560 you're talking about like he doesn't want to inconvenience anybody, 2344 02:11:54.720 --> 02:11:57.159 and he doesn't. He just wants to fit in a 2345 02:11:57.239 --> 02:12:01.479 little and just basically he wants and he wants a television, 2346 02:12:01.680 --> 02:12:06.840 you know, he wants for him those are the basic necessities, right, 2347 02:12:07.600 --> 02:12:10.720 And once he finds it again. He had that at 2348 02:12:10.720 --> 02:12:13.199 the old Man and he switches for another old man, 2349 02:12:14.039 --> 02:12:17.000 and here he is. We get these parallels between there, 2350 02:12:17.039 --> 02:12:19.439 we get the deaths of the two old men and everything. 2351 02:12:19.720 --> 02:12:22.199 But he's so concerned. He's just like, is he going 2352 02:12:22.239 --> 02:12:24.199 to close up the house. Is this going to happen 2353 02:12:24.239 --> 02:12:27.840 to me again? He just wants this and he it's 2354 02:12:27.880 --> 02:12:30.279 not like he's desperate and like, oh what am I 2355 02:12:30.319 --> 02:12:32.760 going to do just to maintain my position? You know, 2356 02:12:33.079 --> 02:12:35.880 he just wants to be. You know, I guess that's 2357 02:12:35.920 --> 02:12:38.439 where the title comes from, you know, just being there. 2358 02:12:38.479 --> 02:12:41.840 He just wants to be, wants to live, wants to 2359 02:12:42.039 --> 02:12:46.720 do his thing, which is to watch TV and eat supper, lunch, 2360 02:12:47.119 --> 02:12:49.520 breakfast whatever. That's it. 2361 02:12:50.520 --> 02:12:52.640 Being there that he's just said. That title made me 2362 02:12:52.640 --> 02:12:55.439 think of reading that script that Kazinski wrote. I mean, 2363 02:12:55.439 --> 02:12:57.600 we I only read the seventy eight script. I think 2364 02:12:57.600 --> 02:13:00.520 it was an earlier script I haven't read. But the 2365 02:13:00.960 --> 02:13:05.039 last script he wrote before Brad Jones took over. Two 2366 02:13:05.319 --> 02:13:07.600 unusual things in it that are a little annoying. I 2367 02:13:07.640 --> 02:13:10.199 actually was surprised how much it did match the Ultimate 2368 02:13:10.199 --> 02:13:12.560 movie actually. But one is that they keep he keeps 2369 02:13:12.680 --> 02:13:14.720 using the word chance as if like kind of like 2370 02:13:14.760 --> 02:13:17.279 as a joke, Like he keeps like having characters say 2371 02:13:17.279 --> 02:13:19.479 the word chance over and ever again, which is like 2372 02:13:19.560 --> 02:13:21.960 kind of strange, like all leading up to even when 2373 02:13:21.960 --> 02:13:24.159 you're meeting Chance. And the second thing is he inserts 2374 02:13:24.239 --> 02:13:27.399 himself did you see that he has, like on someone's 2375 02:13:27.399 --> 02:13:31.159 bedside table, being the book being there, and the author's 2376 02:13:31.279 --> 02:13:33.279 photo is seen in the movie, you know, in the 2377 02:13:33.279 --> 02:13:35.439 script it's you're supposed to see the author's photo. And 2378 02:13:35.720 --> 02:13:39.720 at one point in another part of the movie, it's like, oh, 2379 02:13:40.079 --> 02:13:43.079 that we have plenty of great literature. Here's some Kozinski 2380 02:13:43.199 --> 02:13:45.760 or something. It's just so funny. He just inserts himself 2381 02:13:45.800 --> 02:13:47.600 right into I don't know, I thought that was hysterical. 2382 02:13:47.640 --> 02:13:49.119 I've never seen anybody do that before. 2383 02:13:49.479 --> 02:13:52.239 It's kind of like when Clive Cussler wrote himself into 2384 02:13:52.239 --> 02:13:53.800 some of the Dirk Pit books. 2385 02:13:53.479 --> 02:13:56.159 And you're just like, were doing this. 2386 02:13:56.359 --> 02:14:00.359 It's this embarrassing, Just stop it. Yeah, there was a 2387 02:14:00.359 --> 02:14:02.159 guy at one of the parties that I thought was 2388 02:14:02.239 --> 02:14:04.760 Kazinski later on in the film, and I'm just like, 2389 02:14:05.159 --> 02:14:07.560 I hope he's not biging a cameo. That's a little annoying. 2390 02:14:08.000 --> 02:14:10.359 Kazensky again, like he was an interesting character. I mean, 2391 02:14:10.399 --> 02:14:13.560 he you know, he's friends with Polanski. He grew up 2392 02:14:13.640 --> 02:14:16.399 in you know, in Poland, in you know, during the 2393 02:14:16.439 --> 02:14:19.880 war and survived by pretending to be a Catholic, you 2394 02:14:19.880 --> 02:14:20.640 know that kind of thing. 2395 02:14:20.960 --> 02:14:23.720 Well, and then there's some question about whether he yeah, yeah. 2396 02:14:23.640 --> 02:14:25.840 Yeah, so that's the thing too. Yeah, so he's like, so, yeah, 2397 02:14:25.880 --> 02:14:28.279 that's That's actually an interesting thing is he's in a 2398 02:14:28.319 --> 02:14:29.880 way could be kind of looked up on as a 2399 02:14:29.880 --> 02:14:31.600 little bit of a cipher because he seems to have 2400 02:14:31.640 --> 02:14:35.239 woven White a story for himself that yet he even had, 2401 02:14:35.279 --> 02:14:37.439 you know, he came up with a degree from Columbia 2402 02:14:37.479 --> 02:14:40.720 that didn't exist. There's a lot of accusations of plagiarism 2403 02:14:40.840 --> 02:14:45.159 or lifting you know, gigantic things, themes and whatnot, and 2404 02:14:45.239 --> 02:14:47.960 even to get into America. I think he like created 2405 02:14:48.000 --> 02:14:50.600 a foundation and it was like he just was really 2406 02:14:50.640 --> 02:14:53.399 good at lying. And so it's interesting to wonder a 2407 02:14:53.439 --> 02:14:55.319 lot of people think, you know, he didn't know English 2408 02:14:55.319 --> 02:14:57.359 well enough to have written a lot of the English 2409 02:14:57.359 --> 02:14:59.399 works that he claims to have written. And plus the 2410 02:14:59.399 --> 02:15:02.600 styles are different from work to work to work, So 2411 02:15:02.840 --> 02:15:04.520 it is kind of interesting when you think about this 2412 02:15:04.600 --> 02:15:07.439 story and compared to the author, the original author. 2413 02:15:08.199 --> 02:15:10.199 Yeah, and I had no idea about any of that 2414 02:15:10.279 --> 02:15:13.279 until I started looking into this, and I was like, oh, okay, 2415 02:15:13.319 --> 02:15:16.520 this is this is kind of fascinating, And it is 2416 02:15:16.560 --> 02:15:19.680 funny that he was friends with Polanski because some of 2417 02:15:19.720 --> 02:15:22.920 those the stories you know from like the Pianist and everything. 2418 02:15:22.920 --> 02:15:24.439 I was just like, well, this kind of reminds me 2419 02:15:24.520 --> 02:15:27.880 a little bit of what Kazinski was saying. Like I said, 2420 02:15:27.880 --> 02:15:30.039 I haven't seen The Painted Bird yet, but yeah, from 2421 02:15:30.079 --> 02:15:32.520 what I understand it was a lot of people were 2422 02:15:32.560 --> 02:15:35.119 just like, yeah, no, this really didn't happen to this guy, 2423 02:15:35.159 --> 02:15:37.319 and we have proof of him being here and here 2424 02:15:37.359 --> 02:15:41.039 and here, not living in those Catholic missions or Catholic churches. 2425 02:15:41.079 --> 02:15:43.279 So I'm like, Okay, you know, I don't know if 2426 02:15:43.319 --> 02:15:46.640 it's all apocryphal or what it is, but I think 2427 02:15:46.680 --> 02:15:48.279 that article was it in the. 2428 02:15:48.279 --> 02:15:50.640 Voice of like eighty three or something like that a. 2429 02:15:50.600 --> 02:15:53.720 Little bit after this, a few years after this, but yeah, 2430 02:15:53.760 --> 02:15:57.199 I got to see him interviewed on Dekaviot and I 2431 02:15:57.319 --> 02:16:01.239 really enjoyed on the extras on the Blue Ray having 2432 02:16:01.960 --> 02:16:07.359 Gene Chalatte interviewing Peter Sellers. That was fantastic because Gene's Shalot, 2433 02:16:07.479 --> 02:16:09.319 I mean, he's a living cartoon character, and then you 2434 02:16:09.399 --> 02:16:12.600 have the other living cartoon character with Peter Sellers there 2435 02:16:13.000 --> 02:16:16.039 and he's just cracking up Gene as usual. Very easy 2436 02:16:16.159 --> 02:16:18.840 to crack him. Up, but it was a great interview. 2437 02:16:19.479 --> 02:16:23.399 If the film were to be made and set in 2438 02:16:23.439 --> 02:16:28.119 the twenty first century, where we're less dependent on say, 2439 02:16:28.199 --> 02:16:33.680 network television, and everyone's getting their information, they're getting their 2440 02:16:33.760 --> 02:16:37.799 entertainment and maybe their information from the internet, what would 2441 02:16:37.879 --> 02:16:41.959 Chance be obsessed with. He'd be obsessed with gardening, and 2442 02:16:42.760 --> 02:16:47.280 would he be actively looking for things? He is not 2443 02:16:47.360 --> 02:16:52.159 necessarily intelligent or enough to be curious, but it's an 2444 02:16:52.200 --> 02:16:59.079 interesting question if this if the story was remade and 2445 02:16:59.239 --> 02:17:01.479 really and set in the twenty first century I wanted 2446 02:17:01.479 --> 02:17:02.120 to have, that would go. 2447 02:17:03.040 --> 02:17:04.879 I think you couldn't have the story. You wouldn't have 2448 02:17:04.920 --> 02:17:07.719 That's why it's like we are. We've come into an 2449 02:17:07.760 --> 02:17:10.120 age where you can't have the story can't exist unless 2450 02:17:10.159 --> 02:17:12.319 he lived in a house with no internet. So that 2451 02:17:12.319 --> 02:17:14.319 would be the only way, which of course could be 2452 02:17:14.399 --> 02:17:16.319 obviously you would have to do that. But as far 2453 02:17:16.360 --> 02:17:18.680 as like, if he had access to internet, forget all 2454 02:17:18.719 --> 02:17:21.000 bets are off. You have access to the entire universe. 2455 02:17:21.399 --> 02:17:24.360 So it's completely it's the opposite in a way. I mean, 2456 02:17:24.399 --> 02:17:26.159 you know you could do a flip of this, you 2457 02:17:26.159 --> 02:17:29.239 know where a person like you know, just I don't 2458 02:17:29.239 --> 02:17:32.000 know believe like a person who wholly believes every single thing. 2459 02:17:32.120 --> 02:17:35.079 Imagine something like that where they have no guidance whatsoever, 2460 02:17:35.120 --> 02:17:37.879 they have no people raising them. They're so naive that 2461 02:17:37.879 --> 02:17:40.760 they believe everything that they see on the internet and 2462 02:17:40.799 --> 02:17:42.559 have this like crazy idea of what the world is 2463 02:17:42.600 --> 02:17:44.799 like before they go out and see what it's really like. 2464 02:17:44.840 --> 02:17:46.520 That would be a well, doesn't happen soon? 2465 02:17:46.959 --> 02:17:50.040 It couldn't possibly happen. Nobody's living in a basement. No, 2466 02:17:50.159 --> 02:17:50.840 that couldn't happen. 2467 02:17:51.399 --> 02:17:54.440 Yeah, it would be another Jim Carrey film. They would 2468 02:17:54.520 --> 02:17:57.040 have cameras on him at all times and just watching 2469 02:17:57.040 --> 02:18:00.680 what he does or something. You'd be very into kombucha gardening. 2470 02:18:00.879 --> 02:18:03.680 Definitely a The TV. 2471 02:18:03.440 --> 02:18:06.680 Appearance that he has doesn't happen until an hour and 2472 02:18:06.719 --> 02:18:10.319 twenty minutes into this film. And to your point from earlier, 2473 02:18:10.440 --> 02:18:14.200 like everybody's watching it. We get to see every single 2474 02:18:14.239 --> 02:18:16.520 person in the story, even going all the way back 2475 02:18:16.520 --> 02:18:20.000 to David Clennan who came in as Thomas Franklin, the lawyer. 2476 02:18:20.280 --> 02:18:23.319 We get to get back with his story. We see 2477 02:18:23.319 --> 02:18:25.879 the President watching it, we see Louise watching it, we 2478 02:18:25.959 --> 02:18:29.479 see Melvin Douglas's character watching it. So it's that whole thing, 2479 02:18:29.559 --> 02:18:32.159 Like you're saying, like we had three channels, three main 2480 02:18:32.239 --> 02:18:35.680 channels here, you know, like nobody's checking out, UHF, everybody's 2481 02:18:35.760 --> 02:18:39.120 watching this one particular show. And I'd love to this 2482 02:18:39.159 --> 02:18:43.879 whole theme of the president becoming impotent when chances on 2483 02:18:43.959 --> 02:18:48.040 TV that he's so upset that he's when he says, 2484 02:18:48.520 --> 02:18:51.479 what do you think about the president's stance on economics? 2485 02:18:51.479 --> 02:18:54.479 And he's like, well, which one? And the audience loves that, 2486 02:18:54.760 --> 02:18:57.120 just like, oh, the president can't make up his mind 2487 02:18:57.200 --> 02:18:59.639 or whatever, and that seems to set Warden off. And 2488 02:18:59.680 --> 02:19:02.680 then we come back to him one more time later 2489 02:19:02.719 --> 02:19:04.680 on in the film and he still can't get it 2490 02:19:04.799 --> 02:19:07.120 up for his wife, and she's just like, well, this 2491 02:19:07.200 --> 02:19:09.879 happens to people, but maybe you should see somebody kind 2492 02:19:09.879 --> 02:19:13.360 of say I love that. I love that his power 2493 02:19:13.479 --> 02:19:16.799 is such that he kills the virility of the president. 2494 02:19:17.159 --> 02:19:20.639 Basically the reason why the finance guys at the end 2495 02:19:21.000 --> 02:19:23.079 are like, let's get rid of the president. I mean, 2496 02:19:23.440 --> 02:19:26.360 it's not directly related to that, but he's seen as 2497 02:19:26.399 --> 02:19:29.959 a very impotent human being. After they now have Chauncey 2498 02:19:29.959 --> 02:19:32.799 Gardner where they can put him up on this pedestal Hey, 2499 02:19:32.799 --> 02:19:35.959 he's got no past. Nobody knows who this guy is. 2500 02:19:36.360 --> 02:19:38.719 This is going to be perfect. No one can, you know, 2501 02:19:38.799 --> 02:19:41.159 dig out any of those things. There's no what was 2502 02:19:41.200 --> 02:19:44.079 that monkey business with Gary Hart or like any of 2503 02:19:44.120 --> 02:19:47.159 these like old scandals kind of thing. Not that they 2504 02:19:47.200 --> 02:19:49.360 care about that stuff anymore. I mean, you know, you 2505 02:19:49.399 --> 02:19:52.239 could write people and do all this stuff now and 2506 02:19:52.639 --> 02:19:55.000 have thirty four felon accounts and still get elected. But 2507 02:19:55.200 --> 02:19:58.639 back in nineteen seventy nine it was a much different story. 2508 02:19:59.159 --> 02:20:04.440 And that this is right before the election of Reagan. 2509 02:20:05.239 --> 02:20:09.000 You know, a person who ends up having dementia. I 2510 02:20:09.040 --> 02:20:11.319 don't know when he started to get this dementia, but 2511 02:20:11.399 --> 02:20:16.040 by nineteen eighty eight, full blown dementia. It's pretty funny. 2512 02:20:16.120 --> 02:20:18.639 And getting his information from an astrologer. I mean, yeah, 2513 02:20:18.639 --> 02:20:21.799 it's so it's so interesting like that Reagan. Yeah, I know, 2514 02:20:21.920 --> 02:20:23.840 I think about that a lot. Yeah, you know, And 2515 02:20:23.879 --> 02:20:27.520 I never noticed when I read the script, the written 2516 02:20:27.559 --> 02:20:31.040 print script, because you can't quite hear everything very carefully 2517 02:20:31.079 --> 02:20:33.879 in that funeral scene where the pall bearers are carrying, 2518 02:20:34.479 --> 02:20:38.280 but they're actually saying rand wants him to be president. 2519 02:20:38.360 --> 02:20:40.040 Like I didn't realize it took he took it that far. 2520 02:20:40.079 --> 02:20:42.239 I knew Ran when I'm on the board, Rand wants 2521 02:20:42.319 --> 02:20:44.840 him to be president of the United States. Like you 2522 02:20:44.879 --> 02:20:46.799 actually hear them say that, or at least it's in 2523 02:20:46.799 --> 02:20:48.319 the script. Maybe they changed it for the film, but 2524 02:20:48.600 --> 02:20:51.120 you know, that was definitely one of the last versions 2525 02:20:51.120 --> 02:20:54.360 of the script, and that's such a betrayal. Like you know, 2526 02:20:54.440 --> 02:20:57.120 you sort of think about like how the President after 2527 02:20:57.159 --> 02:20:59.239 he sees Rand, he's like, oh, we have all this 2528 02:20:59.280 --> 02:21:01.639 information on Rand, like find out about this guy Gardner, 2529 02:21:01.680 --> 02:21:03.440 you know, and then suddenly Rant's just like another person 2530 02:21:03.479 --> 02:21:05.920 he has information on and then you know, but it's 2531 02:21:05.920 --> 02:21:09.360 the opposite where he also, like to the president, they 2532 02:21:09.399 --> 02:21:11.959 they only make a subtle reference to how the entire 2533 02:21:12.120 --> 02:21:15.000 economy is apparently collapsing and it's just like a really 2534 02:21:15.239 --> 02:21:18.120 bad time for America right now while this film is 2535 02:21:18.120 --> 02:21:21.840 taking place, like unemployment is astronomical and people are paying 2536 02:21:21.840 --> 02:21:25.799 a million dollars for groceries, and it sounds like, you know, 2537 02:21:25.879 --> 02:21:29.360 everybody wants to replace this president, including everybody at the top. 2538 02:21:29.399 --> 02:21:31.920 You know, they want him replaced. They actually say something 2539 02:21:31.959 --> 02:21:33.799 like we can't have him run again or something like 2540 02:21:33.799 --> 02:21:36.959 that that actually comes up. So yeah, it's it's even where, 2541 02:21:37.120 --> 02:21:39.040 you know, I mean, they really want him to be president. 2542 02:21:39.120 --> 02:21:42.079 Rand really wants to be president. It's pretty pretty interesting. 2543 02:21:42.760 --> 02:21:44.799 It's almost like the price of eggs work too high. 2544 02:21:45.680 --> 02:21:47.360 It was a different time. It was also interesting is 2545 02:21:47.360 --> 02:21:50.319 they never say what political affiliation they are, right, that 2546 02:21:50.360 --> 02:21:54.000 never comes up. That would never happen. Now, I just 2547 02:21:54.000 --> 02:21:55.719 want to talk about the music for a second, because 2548 02:21:55.760 --> 02:21:59.399 Johnny Mandel. Yeah, so I think one of the you know, 2549 02:21:59.399 --> 02:22:02.000 one of the important elements, you know, like the television 2550 02:22:02.040 --> 02:22:05.200 clips are kind of a soundtrack the obviously the the 2551 02:22:05.200 --> 02:22:09.799 the Deodata is that Deodata is that his name, Theodora. 2552 02:22:09.840 --> 02:22:12.559 His stuff is like ecentric but punctuating this and of 2553 02:22:12.639 --> 02:22:16.079 course all throughout in a very end, very beautifully is 2554 02:22:16.120 --> 02:22:19.440 the music of Johnny Mandel, who wrote one of the 2555 02:22:19.440 --> 02:22:22.399 most beautiful songs in cinema, Suicide is Painless, you know, 2556 02:22:22.559 --> 02:22:26.840 from mash And this is based on Eric satis music. 2557 02:22:27.719 --> 02:22:31.559 You know, if if you can hear that, it's it's 2558 02:22:31.600 --> 02:22:34.399 sort of like it's based on I think not quite that, 2559 02:22:34.479 --> 02:22:36.360 but yeah, I mean it's like, you know, he used 2560 02:22:36.440 --> 02:22:38.799 Eric Satiz's greatest inspiration while I was writing this, and 2561 02:22:39.239 --> 02:22:42.520 it's just I think it's just another element that makes 2562 02:22:42.559 --> 02:22:45.920 this a masterpiece. I just think that music is heartbreaking 2563 02:22:45.920 --> 02:22:49.520 and gorgeous and subtle and not over you know, not overdone. 2564 02:22:50.239 --> 02:22:53.760 We've gone and spoken on the program before, Mike about 2565 02:22:53.959 --> 02:22:57.280 the use of music in seventies cinema. You know, Trouble 2566 02:22:57.360 --> 02:23:01.319 Man had that great Marvin Gaye score, and a couple 2567 02:23:01.360 --> 02:23:03.040 of years before this, I think was it a couple 2568 02:23:03.079 --> 02:23:05.520 of years when I mean, not that we've spoken about 2569 02:23:05.520 --> 02:23:09.239 this on the show, but Sorcerer William Friedkin's use of 2570 02:23:09.799 --> 02:23:14.200 Tangerine Dream and use of music in seventies cinema, and 2571 02:23:14.680 --> 02:23:18.440 certainly John Williams had a lot to do bringing back 2572 02:23:18.559 --> 02:23:23.159 orchestral music. It was big, it was brash, it was orchestral, 2573 02:23:23.879 --> 02:23:28.879 and films like the Teknapellam one two three, which used 2574 02:23:29.559 --> 02:23:33.000 I think a David Shire Funk score. Everything was big, 2575 02:23:33.159 --> 02:23:37.920 regardless of whether as band or orchestral. And to your point, Susan, 2576 02:23:38.440 --> 02:23:41.079 maybe apart from the Dear Dato moment at the beginning 2577 02:23:41.120 --> 02:23:44.840 of the film, all the music there is noticeable, but 2578 02:23:45.040 --> 02:23:49.920 it's quiet, and that maybe seems to go against the grains, 2579 02:23:49.959 --> 02:23:53.239 certainly for what ended up being released as a mainstream 2580 02:23:53.319 --> 02:23:56.319 feature in the seventies. I mean, I don't know. Probably 2581 02:23:56.360 --> 02:23:59.280 people listening to this are thinking, you, dickhead. There's one 2582 02:23:59.360 --> 02:24:02.559 hundred films we can name you without even doing any 2583 02:24:02.600 --> 02:24:06.120 research that cataract that. But I mean, even if you 2584 02:24:06.200 --> 02:24:10.360 watch the comparatively art house films of the Woody Allen 2585 02:24:10.719 --> 02:24:15.079 of that period, they're using wacky nineteen twenties nineteen thirties 2586 02:24:15.159 --> 02:24:18.559 jazz in a sort of wacky sort of context. It's 2587 02:24:18.600 --> 02:24:22.159 there to be noticed. But here the music, you still 2588 02:24:22.200 --> 02:24:25.479 do notice it, and it is beautiful, but it's not 2589 02:24:25.680 --> 02:24:28.719 there to take over the story. And look, I'm a 2590 02:24:28.760 --> 02:24:34.000 big believer in recognizing soundtracks and thinking that they should 2591 02:24:34.000 --> 02:24:35.440 be a part of the story. I know there's some 2592 02:24:35.479 --> 02:24:38.200 people who say that a good soundtrack is one that 2593 02:24:38.239 --> 02:24:41.360 you don't notice. I don't believe that at all. But 2594 02:24:41.959 --> 02:24:45.120 in this case, the music is heard, but it's subtle, 2595 02:24:46.040 --> 02:24:48.840 just like the film is. And I think it would 2596 02:24:48.840 --> 02:24:53.000 have been a completely different film than a film all 2597 02:24:53.600 --> 02:24:57.360 the poorer if they would have used music that was 2598 02:24:58.040 --> 02:25:02.840 there and the emotionally tug on your heart strings, Oh 2599 02:25:02.920 --> 02:25:07.799 she's falling in love with chance? Oh chances being made 2600 02:25:08.360 --> 02:25:12.399 fun of on TV or something I agree with you 2601 02:25:12.440 --> 02:25:15.319 one hundred percent that that was of music. He was 2602 02:25:15.440 --> 02:25:18.920 absolutely perfect and in a lot of ways went against 2603 02:25:18.920 --> 02:25:23.000 the grain of what else is going on in seventy cinema. 2604 02:25:23.159 --> 02:25:25.840 Hall ashually was no slouch when it came to music. 2605 02:25:25.879 --> 02:25:28.559 I mean, two films before this, he was doing Bound 2606 02:25:28.639 --> 02:25:31.319 for Glory, which is all about Woody Guthrie, so using 2607 02:25:31.319 --> 02:25:34.120 all the Woody Guthrie music and then the score that 2608 02:25:34.200 --> 02:25:36.959 he did well, the score quote unquote all of the 2609 02:25:37.040 --> 02:25:40.760 Cat Stevens music that he was using for Harold and Maud. 2610 02:25:40.959 --> 02:25:45.639 I mean, that is freaking brilliant, the use of that music, 2611 02:25:45.680 --> 02:25:49.079 and especially now that I'm more used to Kat Stevens, 2612 02:25:49.120 --> 02:25:51.840 Like seeing that movie the first time, I was like, okay, yeah, 2613 02:25:51.879 --> 02:25:54.600 this is cool. But now having and I'm sorry I'm 2614 02:25:54.639 --> 02:25:57.920 calling him to Kat Stevens, I'm dead naming him. I'm 2615 02:25:58.000 --> 02:26:00.879 so sorry because I can never suffer. Thank you. To 2616 02:26:01.079 --> 02:26:04.840 use use of Islam's music in the way that he 2617 02:26:04.879 --> 02:26:08.879 did was just oh so good. And yeah, so he 2618 02:26:09.079 --> 02:26:12.000 knows what he's doing. And obviously as a you know, 2619 02:26:12.239 --> 02:26:15.719 the editor that he was, he's just all about like 2620 02:26:15.760 --> 02:26:19.079 all right, the juxtaposition of these images with this music 2621 02:26:19.200 --> 02:26:21.440 and I know that he did a whole one of 2622 02:26:21.479 --> 02:26:24.559 his last gigs I think was doing stuff for the 2623 02:26:24.639 --> 02:26:27.799 Rolling Stone, So he's just like, very very into the 2624 02:26:27.920 --> 02:26:31.239 music stuff as well. And yeah, I agree like the 2625 02:26:31.479 --> 02:26:34.559 score is subtle, but it comes in at the right time, 2626 02:26:35.239 --> 02:26:38.120 you know. I love that you pointed out earlier, Susan, 2627 02:26:38.159 --> 02:26:40.840 the use of basketball Jones of one of my favorite 2628 02:26:40.879 --> 02:26:43.959 Chiech and Shong songs. And yeah, like you said this, 2629 02:26:44.239 --> 02:26:47.600 the TV becomes the soundtrack for so much of this 2630 02:26:47.840 --> 02:26:50.959 that the Mandel stuff when it does come in, it 2631 02:26:51.079 --> 02:26:54.360 is noticeable. It does enhance, but so much of this 2632 02:26:54.600 --> 02:26:58.479 is just the TV as that background and commenting on 2633 02:26:58.680 --> 02:27:02.280 what's happening on. And the other thing that I haven't 2634 02:27:02.319 --> 02:27:05.159 mentioned is that it's not like a raucous comedy like 2635 02:27:05.200 --> 02:27:07.680 I was saying, it's not Canniball run. But it is 2636 02:27:07.719 --> 02:27:11.280 a comedy and we're there and as the audience, we're 2637 02:27:11.319 --> 02:27:14.920 the only ones allowed to laugh at this. No one 2638 02:27:15.120 --> 02:27:18.079 inside of the movie is laughing at Chance. Like you 2639 02:27:18.120 --> 02:27:21.600 get Louise being upset about Chance, you get Disart being 2640 02:27:21.680 --> 02:27:25.520 a little bit upset him, and David Clennan, but no 2641 02:27:25.559 --> 02:27:28.399 one's laughing at him. We're the ones that are laughing 2642 02:27:28.440 --> 02:27:30.280 at him. We're the ones that see the humor in 2643 02:27:30.319 --> 02:27:34.600 this situation. Nobody inside the screen sees that. We're the 2644 02:27:34.639 --> 02:27:37.600 ones that are privy to something they're not privy too. 2645 02:27:38.399 --> 02:27:41.239 Going away from being there for a second, but just 2646 02:27:41.680 --> 02:27:44.719 because you were talking about the use of Cat Stevens 2647 02:27:44.840 --> 02:27:49.760 songs in Harold and Mood, this week I watched for 2648 02:27:49.799 --> 02:27:52.639 the second time my favorite film of the year, which 2649 02:27:52.719 --> 02:27:56.079 was The Holdovers, which a lot of people have been saying, 2650 02:27:56.399 --> 02:28:00.360 and I agree, is like a homage to a Plash's 2651 02:28:00.399 --> 02:28:07.239 knew how Ashby's directorial style, and certainly, even if you 2652 02:28:07.280 --> 02:28:10.600 didn't pick up on the hal Ashby aspect, the titles, 2653 02:28:11.760 --> 02:28:14.280 everything about it shows that it is trying to be 2654 02:28:14.319 --> 02:28:17.879 a seventies style film. But there's the use of music 2655 02:28:18.840 --> 02:28:23.000 in the film, the folky music. Thinking, Oh, this is 2656 02:28:23.719 --> 02:28:28.360 definitely trying to bring the use of Cat Stevens slash 2657 02:28:28.479 --> 02:28:32.239 use of Islam into this film. There's I can't remember 2658 02:28:32.239 --> 02:28:34.879 who who composes the songs for this film, but I 2659 02:28:34.879 --> 02:28:37.799 think actually at one point I didn't remember this, but 2660 02:28:37.920 --> 02:28:40.639 I was watching the film again this week with Joanne 2661 02:28:41.120 --> 02:28:43.159 and she said, oh, that song that's out of Harold 2662 02:28:43.200 --> 02:28:45.840 and mood. So there was a Cat Stevens song in 2663 02:28:46.040 --> 02:28:48.600 the soundtrack of that. Did have either of you watched 2664 02:28:48.680 --> 02:28:49.639 The Holdovers? 2665 02:28:50.000 --> 02:28:52.239 Yeah, i'd seen it. It was was that two years ago? 2666 02:28:52.360 --> 02:28:53.200 Am I crazy? 2667 02:28:53.440 --> 02:28:53.520 No? 2668 02:28:53.559 --> 02:28:56.319 I came out. Well, in Australia, we always get things. 2669 02:28:56.639 --> 02:28:58.559 Yeah, I feel like it's been a really long time. 2670 02:28:58.639 --> 02:28:59.040 It's a bit. 2671 02:28:59.120 --> 02:29:05.440 Yeah, came out here at maybe fevery March of this year. 2672 02:29:05.479 --> 02:29:08.840 Maybe it had a twenty twenty three season in the 2673 02:29:08.840 --> 02:29:09.319 the US. 2674 02:29:09.479 --> 02:29:11.440 No, you could be right. It just feels really long 2675 02:29:11.559 --> 02:29:11.799 for me. 2676 02:29:11.920 --> 02:29:15.079 But yeah, I'm very selective now with my Blu Ray 2677 02:29:15.479 --> 02:29:21.280 purchases running out of space. But The Holdovers was one 2678 02:29:21.360 --> 02:29:23.200 film I thought, no, I have to own a copy 2679 02:29:23.200 --> 02:29:26.799 of this one and watched it because what else am 2680 02:29:26.799 --> 02:29:28.840 I going to do on Christmas Eve? Watched it this 2681 02:29:28.920 --> 02:29:32.520 week and I'm decided I'm going to watch it. That's 2682 02:29:32.559 --> 02:29:35.760 going to be a Christmas Eve movie for me every year. 2683 02:29:35.959 --> 02:29:40.360 Just absolutely beautiful, but very hal ashby and its approach 2684 02:29:40.520 --> 02:29:44.520 and once again very subtle use of music and even 2685 02:29:44.600 --> 02:29:49.079 trying to pay tribute through the style of Kat Stevens, 2686 02:29:49.280 --> 02:29:53.520 slash use of Islam slash whatever. His birth name was, 2687 02:29:53.879 --> 02:29:54.879 Stephen Georgio. 2688 02:29:54.959 --> 02:29:57.239 I think just as a final fight on there. It's 2689 02:29:57.360 --> 02:29:59.239 just taking us all the way back to the opening, 2690 02:29:59.280 --> 02:30:03.040 opening opening. Maybe it's one of my favorite movie openings ever. 2691 02:30:03.239 --> 02:30:06.159 And I'm really serious. It starts silent. You almost feel like, 2692 02:30:06.159 --> 02:30:08.200 oh is my audio on? You know when you rewatch it, 2693 02:30:08.399 --> 02:30:11.120 But then the TV clicks on. He has an alarm TV. 2694 02:30:11.159 --> 02:30:13.600 It clicks on at six am or whatever, and that 2695 02:30:14.120 --> 02:30:17.600 orchestra comes in and it is again. So this is 2696 02:30:17.680 --> 02:30:20.120 just exactly what we're just talking about, like how he's 2697 02:30:20.200 --> 02:30:22.760 a genius. That's hal Ashby. I mean, that's totally hawl 2698 02:30:22.760 --> 02:30:26.440 Ashby came up with that. It's just gorgeous. I just 2699 02:30:26.479 --> 02:30:29.639 love the opening to this movie. So anyway, that's taking 2700 02:30:29.719 --> 02:30:31.479 us back to the beginning, and then the ending is 2701 02:30:31.520 --> 02:30:34.000 perfect muscle. It's got a perfect first few minutes, perfect 2702 02:30:34.079 --> 02:30:36.680 last few minutes, and everything in between's pretty good too. 2703 02:30:37.319 --> 02:30:39.079 All Right, we're going to take another break and play 2704 02:30:39.120 --> 02:30:42.520 PREV for next week's show right after these brief messages. 2705 02:30:44.120 --> 02:30:48.120 Without getting emotional, to declaim loud and clear the cold 2706 02:30:48.120 --> 02:30:51.159 and serious strophy you were about to hear, pay attention 2707 02:30:51.239 --> 02:30:54.520 to its message and defend yourselves, or it will certainly 2708 02:30:54.520 --> 02:30:58.399 be painfully seared like our brand on your troubled imagination? 2709 02:31:40.319 --> 02:31:52.959 Eth does that feel? Does that feel? Let it fem 2710 02:31:53.000 --> 02:31:53.360 out there? 2711 02:31:58.399 --> 02:32:04.280 Sorday m hm. The one really what I did a 2712 02:32:04.440 --> 02:32:05.840 nou su Johnson. 2713 02:32:08.559 --> 02:32:18.360 And is a pacis a female O care the murder. 2714 02:32:41.360 --> 02:32:42.000 Look at you. 2715 02:32:47.120 --> 02:32:50.440 Man passes from an upper stage of savagery to a 2716 02:32:50.440 --> 02:33:20.239 lower stage of barbarism. 2717 02:33:20.520 --> 02:33:25.360 Weekend cheerly justifies the passion and fortune in young America. 2718 02:33:26.760 --> 02:33:27.200 See it. 2719 02:33:28.760 --> 02:33:31.360 That's right, everybody's working for the weekend. We'll be back 2720 02:33:31.399 --> 02:33:34.840 next week with a discussion of the Jean Luke Godard film. 2721 02:33:34.920 --> 02:33:37.280 Until then, I want to thank my co hosts, Susan 2722 02:33:37.319 --> 02:33:39.760 and Morris. Morris, what is the latest with. 2723 02:33:39.760 --> 02:33:43.000 You, sir? Well, At the time of recording this, I've 2724 02:33:43.079 --> 02:33:46.000 just released the latest episode of Love That Album. I 2725 02:33:46.159 --> 02:33:49.559 get together with a fellow from the Love That Album 2726 02:33:49.719 --> 02:33:54.319 Facebook group community, ed Ross, a fellow jazz fanatic, and 2727 02:33:54.879 --> 02:33:58.760 we decided to pick four albums from the ECM Record label, 2728 02:33:58.799 --> 02:34:02.600 great label that was started up in Germany in nineteen 2729 02:34:02.680 --> 02:34:06.040 sixty nine a run by follow called Manfred Eicher, who 2730 02:34:06.159 --> 02:34:08.280 I believe is still very hands on with a company 2731 02:34:08.280 --> 02:34:11.280 all these years later, and of so many great artists 2732 02:34:11.319 --> 02:34:17.159 on that label, Pat Metheny, Keith Jarrett, John Abercrombie, Gary Burton, 2733 02:34:17.920 --> 02:34:20.879 Ralph Towner, tons and tons and tons of others. So 2734 02:34:20.920 --> 02:34:23.719 we pick four albums that we want to discuss and 2735 02:34:23.840 --> 02:34:26.719 as love that album's way, as we also drift in 2736 02:34:26.760 --> 02:34:31.079 and out of other topics and other albums from great 2737 02:34:31.159 --> 02:34:36.559 musicians on the label. In See Here World. We actually 2738 02:34:36.639 --> 02:34:39.360 took a break this month, but we'll be back in January. 2739 02:34:39.879 --> 02:34:43.760 Tim's picked the next film, which is strictly speaking not 2740 02:34:44.000 --> 02:34:49.280 really a music film, but music plays a strong art 2741 02:34:49.559 --> 02:34:52.399 in the presentation, and that's nineteen eighty one's heavy Metal, 2742 02:34:52.840 --> 02:34:57.399 So that'll be a next month's pick. But yeah, another 2743 02:34:57.920 --> 02:35:01.520 good year, we hope ahead of us for both and Susan, 2744 02:35:01.520 --> 02:35:02.239 how about yourself. 2745 02:35:02.959 --> 02:35:05.520 Well, I've been taking a very big break because I've 2746 02:35:05.600 --> 02:35:08.200 ended up going back to school. So just as inspiration 2747 02:35:08.239 --> 02:35:10.360 for anybody else, I'm in my fifties and I'm getting 2748 02:35:10.399 --> 02:35:14.280 a PhD. Man, I'm getting a PhD in developmental psychology. Yeah, 2749 02:35:14.319 --> 02:35:16.159 because the kids are not all right and I'm gonna 2750 02:35:16.360 --> 02:35:18.840 try to pitch it and hopefully get them back on track. 2751 02:35:19.000 --> 02:35:21.159 But anyway, yeah, it's a fascinating area, and so that's 2752 02:35:21.200 --> 02:35:23.120 what I'm doing. But yeah, just so people know, that's 2753 02:35:23.120 --> 02:35:25.280 why I haven't been doing too much. Might do an 2754 02:35:25.280 --> 02:35:27.760 occasional Kevin Geeks out here in New York City around there, 2755 02:35:27.799 --> 02:35:31.360 but in Austin, Texas. Get a degree at a very 2756 02:35:31.399 --> 02:35:33.799 late age. But everybody should give that a try if 2757 02:35:33.840 --> 02:35:36.760 they can, because it's it's pretty it's pretty amazing actually 2758 02:35:36.760 --> 02:35:39.120 to do this at this age, and I'm really really 2759 02:35:39.200 --> 02:35:40.479 enjoying it, to tell you the truth. 2760 02:35:41.079 --> 02:35:43.000 Well, thank you so much folks for being on the show. 2761 02:35:43.079 --> 02:35:44.879 Thanks to everybody for listening. If you want to hear 2762 02:35:44.879 --> 02:35:46.600 more of me shooting off my mouth, check out some 2763 02:35:46.600 --> 02:35:48.399 of the other shows that I work on. They are 2764 02:35:48.440 --> 02:35:51.760 all available at Waitingwaymedia dot com. Thanks especially to our 2765 02:35:51.840 --> 02:35:54.399 Patreon community. If you want to join the community, visit 2766 02:35:54.440 --> 02:35:57.639 patreon dot com slash Projection Booth. Every donation we get 2767 02:35:57.680 --> 02:35:59.680 helps some Projection Booth take over the. 2768 02:35:59.600 --> 02:38:55.920 World things, boost recordings at the. 2769 02:38:57.879 --> 02:38:59.440 Listening to. 2770 02:41:04.600 --> 02:42:58.000 At times best Stu