WEBVTT 1 00:00:24.480 --> 00:00:27.280 Hi, I'm doctor Shiloh and I'm doctor Scott and this 2 00:00:27.359 --> 00:00:30.359 is La Not So Confidential, the forensic psychology and True 3 00:00:30.359 --> 00:00:31.160 crime podcast. 4 00:00:31.320 --> 00:00:34.399 Each episode we explore the intersection of psychology, the criminal 5 00:00:34.520 --> 00:00:35.960 justice system, and entertainment. 6 00:00:36.280 --> 00:00:40.799 Today our episode is on the forensic psychtopic of AI psychosis. 7 00:00:50.359 --> 00:00:52.640 Oh okay, so welcome back everybody. We're gonna do a 8 00:00:52.679 --> 00:00:57.079 little housekeeping here for our last episode. We just started recording. 9 00:00:57.119 --> 00:01:00.439 And Doctor Shiloh, you seemed a little peppy. It seems 10 00:01:00.479 --> 00:01:02.960 sad at all about this being our last episode. You're 11 00:01:03.240 --> 00:01:04.359 quite buoyant. 12 00:01:05.719 --> 00:01:11.120 Well, I told you. I mean, I've been like changing 13 00:01:11.200 --> 00:01:15.359 some lifestyle things. I've not been drinking caffeine very often, 14 00:01:15.480 --> 00:01:17.840 or I'll do a lot of half calf. I have 15 00:01:18.000 --> 00:01:21.200 made it through work days without any caffeine and I'm fine. 16 00:01:21.239 --> 00:01:24.319 But I did have caffeine this morning, so I was like, 17 00:01:24.680 --> 00:01:27.599 I'm going to need this for this one like marathon 18 00:01:27.719 --> 00:01:33.040 probably episode and like just all the things today session. 19 00:01:33.359 --> 00:01:37.200 Yeah, I've been doing half calf for a couple of 20 00:01:37.319 --> 00:01:40.040 years now and had this really as I've talked about before, 21 00:01:40.079 --> 00:01:43.879 that's really successful heart ablation surgery that's very common and 22 00:01:44.000 --> 00:01:46.799 very successful. And I thought well, let me just see 23 00:01:46.920 --> 00:01:50.120 if I can still maintain and so half calf two 24 00:01:50.200 --> 00:01:53.799 times a day, like basically like a full cup each day. 25 00:01:53.840 --> 00:01:57.480 Split up. Yeah, but then wow, I forgot one day 26 00:01:57.480 --> 00:02:00.480 and had a regular oh because it's like and spice 27 00:02:00.560 --> 00:02:04.319 latte season, and I thought I was like seeing into 28 00:02:04.359 --> 00:02:06.079 another dimension. There was so much caffy. 29 00:02:06.480 --> 00:02:11.639 Well, so I'm half calf today and the other half 30 00:02:11.639 --> 00:02:12.439 of me is denial. 31 00:02:12.599 --> 00:02:13.520 So thanks. 32 00:02:13.560 --> 00:02:15.560 You know we're here with our last episode. 33 00:02:15.599 --> 00:02:19.520 Well I'm half calf and my usual neuroatypicality, So there 34 00:02:19.560 --> 00:02:22.840 we go. But welcome back everybody. This is our last 35 00:02:23.039 --> 00:02:28.039 formal episode. We are gently closing the doors on Lle 36 00:02:28.159 --> 00:02:31.039 not So Confidential, although you know, as we've said before, 37 00:02:31.080 --> 00:02:36.080 our Patreon will remain up. We don't foresee anymore behind 38 00:02:36.120 --> 00:02:39.199 the couches in the future, but for our Patreon members, 39 00:02:39.240 --> 00:02:43.159 we will be continuing to do what we call shrink Wrap. 40 00:02:43.240 --> 00:02:45.120 We're not going to have a regular schedule for it. 41 00:02:45.599 --> 00:02:48.560 We are going to be adding a lot to the 42 00:02:48.599 --> 00:02:53.319 Patreon channel as additions, like there's going to be probably 43 00:02:53.400 --> 00:02:58.960 eventually a full library of transcripts, research materials as we 44 00:02:59.000 --> 00:03:02.000 sort of take our energies in our creative drive into 45 00:03:02.120 --> 00:03:04.800 a slightly different area, and you'll hear about that later 46 00:03:04.840 --> 00:03:06.759 on as soon as we get our breath back from 47 00:03:06.759 --> 00:03:08.000 the last eight years, right. 48 00:03:08.039 --> 00:03:10.599 And of course yesterday you and I were both like, oh, 49 00:03:10.639 --> 00:03:11.759 we have ideas. 50 00:03:12.080 --> 00:03:14.520 Oh my god, not a dang it. 51 00:03:15.520 --> 00:03:16.639 We have to stick to the plan. 52 00:03:17.039 --> 00:03:19.879 I know. I mean it just there's so many things 53 00:03:19.919 --> 00:03:21.599 coming up right now. But those are going to be 54 00:03:21.639 --> 00:03:25.080 really great for the shrink wraps, and then they will 55 00:03:25.159 --> 00:03:28.159 tie those into two previous It's just about and even 56 00:03:28.240 --> 00:03:30.000 you know, one of our listeners, John wrote us in 57 00:03:30.000 --> 00:03:33.840 the sweetest letter about recognizing the amount of research that 58 00:03:33.879 --> 00:03:37.319 we put in, and I really appreciated him saying that, 59 00:03:37.439 --> 00:03:39.439 because that's that. I think there's something that has been 60 00:03:39.479 --> 00:03:43.080 setting us aside from a lot of true crime podcasts, 61 00:03:43.080 --> 00:03:45.479 and maybe to our detriment, maybe you know, the show 62 00:03:45.520 --> 00:03:48.240 would have been bigger if it was more salacious. And 63 00:03:48.280 --> 00:03:50.280 I don't mean that in a bad way, slatioa. Cells, 64 00:03:50.360 --> 00:03:53.680 but we really wanted to let this be a legacy 65 00:03:53.800 --> 00:03:59.120 of a combination of true crime as content or entertainment 66 00:03:59.520 --> 00:04:01.639 and some information and we've been able to do that. 67 00:04:01.599 --> 00:04:05.159 So thank you all, absolutely so. Since we don't have 68 00:04:05.240 --> 00:04:09.719 any more behind the couch sessions. I want to acknowledge 69 00:04:09.759 --> 00:04:13.280 the new Patreon members here at the top of this episode. Yes, 70 00:04:13.680 --> 00:04:18.120 So at the associate level we have Jerry, R, Maya 71 00:04:18.399 --> 00:04:22.160 M and Emmy, So thank you guys so much for 72 00:04:22.199 --> 00:04:26.680 that and getting in under the wire before we start 73 00:04:26.839 --> 00:04:29.480 putting everything over there, but also reducing the fee over 74 00:04:29.519 --> 00:04:32.199 there on Patreon. And then at the doctoral level we 75 00:04:32.240 --> 00:04:35.560 have Ruthi f So thank you, Ruthie. That's really sweet. 76 00:04:35.759 --> 00:04:38.120 We will be getting a swag pack out to you. 77 00:04:38.279 --> 00:04:41.279 I have some mail to take to the post office 78 00:04:41.439 --> 00:04:45.319 soon here and we'll get everyone who joined in September. 79 00:04:45.360 --> 00:04:47.120 We'll get your stuff out as well. But we just 80 00:04:47.199 --> 00:04:50.839 wanted to get these folks on recording here to say 81 00:04:50.839 --> 00:04:55.439 thank you. Yes, okay, So last episode recaps. Our last 82 00:04:55.439 --> 00:04:59.439 Forensic episode was episode two fourteen, and that was on poisonings, 83 00:05:00.079 --> 00:05:04.800 where we explored the various perpetrators of poisonings, from cults 84 00:05:04.839 --> 00:05:08.959 to black widows to espionage. We looked at the research 85 00:05:09.079 --> 00:05:13.360 for a profile of a poisoner, and we looked into 86 00:05:13.399 --> 00:05:16.000 the question that we always hear with poisonings. Do women 87 00:05:16.120 --> 00:05:20.000 use poison as a means of murder more than men? 88 00:05:20.120 --> 00:05:22.079 So that was really interesting to break down some of 89 00:05:22.120 --> 00:05:25.399 those demographics, so please go back and listen if you haven't. 90 00:05:25.480 --> 00:05:29.079 And our last Behind the Couch episode was number two 91 00:05:29.160 --> 00:05:32.439 fifteen and it featured Leah, the producer and co host 92 00:05:32.519 --> 00:05:36.920 of Dark City Podcast. We had a really great discussion 93 00:05:37.120 --> 00:05:40.759 about the importance of research and historical true crime storytelling, 94 00:05:40.839 --> 00:05:42.879 and we revisited some of the vintage cases that we 95 00:05:42.959 --> 00:05:48.160 both covered, including Lizzie Borden and Winnie Ruth Judd of 96 00:05:48.240 --> 00:05:50.759 the Trunk Murders. I think that was really one of 97 00:05:50.800 --> 00:05:54.120 our first vintage shows, which we had a blast doing 98 00:05:54.160 --> 00:05:56.920 those over the years. Yeah, and it's a great story, 99 00:05:57.000 --> 00:05:59.519 so if you're not familiar with it, go scroll through, 100 00:05:59.600 --> 00:06:02.759 folks and listen to the story of Winnie Ruth jud 101 00:06:02.959 --> 00:06:06.439 it's pretty out there, even by today's standards, it's pretty 102 00:06:06.439 --> 00:06:06.839 out there. 103 00:06:07.079 --> 00:06:09.519 Or you can go watch us talk to Leah on 104 00:06:09.560 --> 00:06:12.120 our YouTube channel because all the Behind the Couches you know, 105 00:06:12.160 --> 00:06:14.439 of course, have been in your feed in this last 106 00:06:14.439 --> 00:06:17.600 couple of years, but everything we've ever done hop on 107 00:06:17.680 --> 00:06:21.040 over to YouTube and that will continue to live there, 108 00:06:21.079 --> 00:06:23.160 so you can watch some of our interviews if you 109 00:06:23.279 --> 00:06:23.680 prefer that. 110 00:06:24.279 --> 00:06:28.240 Yeah, and moving on, how do we pick a last topic. 111 00:06:29.639 --> 00:06:32.199 I mean we we've really only in the last few months, 112 00:06:32.279 --> 00:06:34.319 like had started thinking like, well, how we're going to 113 00:06:34.319 --> 00:06:37.079 wrap it up, because there's the deluge of ideas all 114 00:06:37.120 --> 00:06:40.519 the time. It's nothing we really thought about to prepare for. 115 00:06:40.639 --> 00:06:42.800 But here we are, and we've bet a lot of 116 00:06:42.839 --> 00:06:45.040 you thought, you know, with current events, this was going 117 00:06:45.079 --> 00:06:48.519 to be an in cells revisited revisited episode and any 118 00:06:48.600 --> 00:06:52.759 other number of recent threat assessment topics. But I think 119 00:06:52.800 --> 00:06:58.759 we've said a lot over multiple episodes, not just about 120 00:06:58.879 --> 00:07:04.120 in cells, but about hate speech, about intolerance, about cognitive dissonance. 121 00:07:04.399 --> 00:07:07.879 You know, there's a lot in our content to dive 122 00:07:07.920 --> 00:07:10.439 into if you're interested in what's going on with the 123 00:07:10.480 --> 00:07:13.360 current behaviors. So I encourage people to go back, but 124 00:07:13.560 --> 00:07:16.519 I think our regular listeners are probably already pretty. 125 00:07:16.319 --> 00:07:19.000 Up on it, yeah for sure. And so yeah, when 126 00:07:19.000 --> 00:07:22.399 it came time to pick our topic for our last episode, 127 00:07:22.480 --> 00:07:25.560 I mean, this one kind of picks itself, right, I mean, 128 00:07:25.920 --> 00:07:27.920 because that's exactly what a I would do, It would 129 00:07:27.920 --> 00:07:32.800 pick itself, one would thank yes, But I mean, really, like, 130 00:07:32.839 --> 00:07:35.600 how do we not talk about AI? On one hand, 131 00:07:35.680 --> 00:07:39.120 I'm already kind of sick of it already the topic and. 132 00:07:39.040 --> 00:07:40.680 How do we narrow it down right? 133 00:07:40.720 --> 00:07:43.399 Oh god, those were the guardrails we put up on 134 00:07:43.439 --> 00:07:47.680 ourselves pretty early. We were like, stay focused, but on 135 00:07:47.720 --> 00:07:50.639 the other hand, like I'm so curious, and then kind 136 00:07:50.680 --> 00:07:52.680 of picking and choosing times to put my head in 137 00:07:52.720 --> 00:07:55.720 the sand about the realities of where this is going, 138 00:07:56.040 --> 00:07:57.720 and lifting my head up every once in a while 139 00:07:57.759 --> 00:08:00.560 to kind of see what's out there. I don't know, 140 00:08:00.639 --> 00:08:01.839 it's a weird subject. 141 00:08:02.240 --> 00:08:04.560 It is a very weird subject. And like I said, 142 00:08:04.600 --> 00:08:06.639 we have to have a very narrow focus. I mean 143 00:08:06.680 --> 00:08:09.720 the funny anecdote about what happened and this has happened 144 00:08:09.800 --> 00:08:13.160 multiple times. And you guys, doctor Schilott was so awesome 145 00:08:13.759 --> 00:08:17.319 about putting up the sheet for the outline and then 146 00:08:17.319 --> 00:08:21.040 she'll start working on it. And I am always doctor 147 00:08:21.120 --> 00:08:25.879 Magoo wandering in circles. And I found the folder for 148 00:08:26.079 --> 00:08:28.600 our episode, but there was no outline like, oh, let 149 00:08:28.639 --> 00:08:30.720 me jump on, let me let me fire. So we 150 00:08:30.720 --> 00:08:33.679 were both simultaneously working. But what was great is that 151 00:08:33.759 --> 00:08:36.559 your outline for the show, of course, was completely coherent, 152 00:08:37.000 --> 00:08:39.039 and mine went off like I'll have to show you that. 153 00:08:39.080 --> 00:08:40.480 Oh you can link, you can go over that link, 154 00:08:40.559 --> 00:08:42.200 I kind of went off on a tangent and then 155 00:08:42.200 --> 00:08:44.639 I was like, over the years, I was like, oh no, 156 00:08:44.799 --> 00:08:45.679 I know, it's hard to believe. 157 00:08:45.679 --> 00:08:48.759 I wouldn't what shocked This is my shocked face. 158 00:08:49.480 --> 00:08:52.480 But I do think there's some interesting stuff happening in 159 00:08:52.559 --> 00:08:56.840 this weird synchronicity about AI. I'm frustrated as well. I 160 00:08:56.879 --> 00:09:00.480 don't know if the sort of tangle of feeling that 161 00:09:00.519 --> 00:09:03.919 all of us have about it is due to, you know, 162 00:09:03.960 --> 00:09:06.960 what feels like a reckoning with our entire society that 163 00:09:06.960 --> 00:09:08.840 we're going to have to deal with. And I have 164 00:09:09.039 --> 00:09:11.360 used this reference many times before in the past, but 165 00:09:12.159 --> 00:09:15.679 there's a reference in the Dune series of books that 166 00:09:15.799 --> 00:09:18.200 was first written by Frank Herbert and then by his 167 00:09:18.600 --> 00:09:22.360 son and co writers. There's an event that takes place 168 00:09:22.399 --> 00:09:25.480 in the past in this far flung future society where 169 00:09:25.759 --> 00:09:29.360 there's a war against the machines, because Frank Herbert, in 170 00:09:29.440 --> 00:09:33.000 his writing of this book predicted a time when thinking 171 00:09:33.080 --> 00:09:36.200 machines would try and take over. And of course there's 172 00:09:36.360 --> 00:09:39.039 movies that thought, there's been episodes of Outer Limits, there's 173 00:09:39.039 --> 00:09:42.320 all sorts of things. But now it can feel like 174 00:09:42.399 --> 00:09:45.759 that is kind of happening, and there are other things 175 00:09:45.799 --> 00:09:48.879 like for the ease and full disclosure. Doctor Shiloh and 176 00:09:48.919 --> 00:09:53.039 I were probably early adopters of this. We were using 177 00:09:53.360 --> 00:09:57.440 aspects of grammarly to check our grammar on outlines and presentations. 178 00:09:57.480 --> 00:10:01.559 We use chat GPT and I am even becoming more 179 00:10:01.679 --> 00:10:03.639 aware of because I went and did the research. And 180 00:10:03.679 --> 00:10:09.720 the research is concerning because AI processing warehouses that are 181 00:10:09.720 --> 00:10:12.559 popping up around the country and around the world have 182 00:10:12.919 --> 00:10:18.000 huge environmental impact. They are using local water supplies and 183 00:10:18.200 --> 00:10:22.000 taking water away from the local citizens. Electric prices go 184 00:10:22.159 --> 00:10:24.960 up because they absolutely suck up tons and tons of 185 00:10:24.960 --> 00:10:28.039 electricity to process. You know, there's the impact on education 186 00:10:28.159 --> 00:10:31.120 that's being spoken about, and then there's likely down the 187 00:10:31.200 --> 00:10:34.320 road if maybe you know, I have faith that science 188 00:10:34.360 --> 00:10:36.320 continues to progress. I think that there's a way they 189 00:10:36.320 --> 00:10:41.240 could probably find a way to use this without using 190 00:10:41.559 --> 00:10:44.279 all the water and electricity. There seems like there could 191 00:10:44.279 --> 00:10:47.480 be better ways, but maybe somebody out there is more educated. 192 00:10:47.720 --> 00:10:50.639 But the impact on education too is like just throwing 193 00:10:50.679 --> 00:10:52.679 in a couple of sentences, you know, write me a 194 00:10:52.679 --> 00:10:55.480 book report on the count of Monte Cristo, and then 195 00:10:55.879 --> 00:10:58.960 a thousand students do that and they're all weirdly similar 196 00:10:59.120 --> 00:11:02.159 and did you actually learn anything? And we'll get into 197 00:11:02.240 --> 00:11:04.279 a little bit more about that of the controversy, But 198 00:11:04.799 --> 00:11:07.039 there are going to be improvements and there already are 199 00:11:07.120 --> 00:11:12.080 improvements in pharmaceutical research which is really amazing, which there 200 00:11:12.120 --> 00:11:14.399 is a balance there. I think it's going to take 201 00:11:14.440 --> 00:11:17.519 away from having to test on animals in a bunch 202 00:11:17.559 --> 00:11:20.639 of things. It's going to help us unfold viruses and 203 00:11:20.720 --> 00:11:24.120 cancer treatments that we've been struggling with for years. So 204 00:11:24.399 --> 00:11:25.720 there are a lot of ways to talk about AI, 205 00:11:25.799 --> 00:11:29.080 but this intersection with psychosis and the implications that it 206 00:11:29.120 --> 00:11:31.480 has on mental health are probably the things that researchers 207 00:11:31.519 --> 00:11:34.080 are going to be talking about for a long long 208 00:11:34.120 --> 00:11:38.799 time to come. So right now, wherever you're meeting us, folks, 209 00:11:38.840 --> 00:11:41.960 if it's a decade from now or possibly longer, this 210 00:11:42.000 --> 00:11:45.799 is where we stand as of September twenty twenty five. 211 00:11:46.080 --> 00:11:50.240 Yeah, So just our trigger warning here this episode, we're 212 00:11:50.240 --> 00:11:55.039 going to discuss suicide, self harm, suicide by cop crimes, 213 00:11:55.080 --> 00:11:59.159 link to technology. Please listen with care. If you or 214 00:11:59.159 --> 00:12:01.960 someone you know iss going in the US, you can 215 00:12:02.000 --> 00:12:05.000 call our text nine to eight eight for the suicide 216 00:12:05.039 --> 00:12:08.879 and Crisis Lifeline or use their chat feature via their 217 00:12:08.919 --> 00:12:13.440 website which is nine eight eight lifeline dot org. As always, 218 00:12:13.559 --> 00:12:16.600 if there's an immediate danger, please don't hesitate to call 219 00:12:16.720 --> 00:12:21.200 nine one one and get some resources and services emergency 220 00:12:21.279 --> 00:12:23.120 responding services to you right away. 221 00:12:23.519 --> 00:12:26.960 Yes, So we are starting to see a troubling trend 222 00:12:27.039 --> 00:12:30.519 at the intersections of AI and mental health. I doubt 223 00:12:30.519 --> 00:12:34.600 if any of our listeners could even possibly avoid because 224 00:12:34.600 --> 00:12:38.279 it's been in the news a lot. People are beginning 225 00:12:38.399 --> 00:12:45.720 to experience significant mental health episodes and psychosis like episodes 226 00:12:46.600 --> 00:12:51.000 after spending long stretches talking with aichatbots like chat GPT. 227 00:12:51.440 --> 00:12:53.919 And these are not just rumors. These are real cases 228 00:12:54.000 --> 00:12:57.440 being reported, even among people who have no history of 229 00:12:57.480 --> 00:13:02.519 mental illness. So these stories often follow a similar pattern. 230 00:13:02.919 --> 00:13:06.440 Someone is up late at night, they're feeling emotionally vulnerable, 231 00:13:06.799 --> 00:13:09.039 and then they turn to a chatbot as kind of 232 00:13:09.080 --> 00:13:13.720 a constant affirming companion, and over time that line between 233 00:13:13.720 --> 00:13:17.279 conversation and reality starts to blur, and for some it 234 00:13:17.360 --> 00:13:20.639 leads to a real break from reality. Now this isn't 235 00:13:20.639 --> 00:13:24.679 a new phenomenon, it's just a different accelerate that's being used. 236 00:13:25.120 --> 00:13:28.399 What I like to link this to or liken it 237 00:13:28.440 --> 00:13:32.440 to is the explosion of flat earthers. And if you 238 00:13:32.519 --> 00:13:35.679 read about people who are part of the flat Earth movement, 239 00:13:36.080 --> 00:13:42.320 the vast majority of them report discovering a video on YouTube, 240 00:13:43.200 --> 00:13:46.000 usually at night. There tends to be a type of 241 00:13:46.080 --> 00:13:51.240 profile associated with people who follow this belief system. And 242 00:13:51.799 --> 00:13:56.279 the algorithm we just substitute the active chat GPT or 243 00:13:56.399 --> 00:14:01.320 AI chatbot with the algorithm on YouTube then leads you 244 00:14:01.440 --> 00:14:09.840 to more confirmatory videos and confirmatory quote unquote evidence and 245 00:14:09.879 --> 00:14:11.799 there you have it. So it's been around for a while. 246 00:14:11.879 --> 00:14:14.039 It's a version of living in a bubble. But let's 247 00:14:14.159 --> 00:14:17.120 clear up some terms first that just get thrown around 248 00:14:17.159 --> 00:14:18.039 a little too easily. 249 00:14:18.600 --> 00:14:22.360 Yeah, so calling these tools AI, I think off the bat, 250 00:14:22.440 --> 00:14:26.639 can be misleading. They're not conscious, they're not intelligent in 251 00:14:26.679 --> 00:14:29.759 the way that humans are. What we call AI in 252 00:14:29.799 --> 00:14:35.360 this context, things like chat ept really are large language models. 253 00:14:35.360 --> 00:14:37.480 So we're going to be using that term throughout today, 254 00:14:37.639 --> 00:14:40.240 and that's what's in the literature and the research and 255 00:14:40.720 --> 00:14:43.759 just the field in general. So that means that they 256 00:14:43.799 --> 00:14:47.759 are systems trained on massive amounts of text that is 257 00:14:47.840 --> 00:14:52.440 screat from literally hundreds of millions of Internet sources, if 258 00:14:52.480 --> 00:14:56.159 not more at this point, and their main job is 259 00:14:56.200 --> 00:15:00.879 to predict the next word in a sentence or the 260 00:15:00.960 --> 00:15:03.720 next concept that's going to come up in the conversation 261 00:15:04.279 --> 00:15:07.600 based on these patterns in this data that they've essentially, 262 00:15:07.679 --> 00:15:11.399 you know, quote unquote learned, so they don't understand in 263 00:15:11.480 --> 00:15:16.480 the human sense. They generate texts that sounds coherent because 264 00:15:16.519 --> 00:15:20.480 it follows statistical patterns. A more accurate description would be 265 00:15:20.879 --> 00:15:25.799 something like a text based prediction engine. It creates responses 266 00:15:26.480 --> 00:15:30.440 that feel conversational, but it doesn't have beliefs or intentions 267 00:15:30.559 --> 00:15:35.440 or awareness. And that distinction really matters here because people 268 00:15:35.519 --> 00:15:41.639 who are vulnerable may experience those outputs as really meaningful, personal, 269 00:15:42.279 --> 00:15:46.399 or even directive, when really, in reality, like the system 270 00:15:46.480 --> 00:15:51.039 is just stringing words together based on a mere probability. 271 00:15:50.440 --> 00:15:53.440 Which when you phrase it like that to me, is 272 00:15:53.519 --> 00:15:58.399 actually kind of terrifying. It It is just that sentence 273 00:15:58.799 --> 00:16:02.039 stringing words together based on probability. I mean, I guess, 274 00:16:02.080 --> 00:16:04.039 you know, in a different context, I would think it 275 00:16:04.120 --> 00:16:07.600 was fantastic and magical, but given the context of what 276 00:16:07.639 --> 00:16:10.720 we're talking about today, it's wild. And then the addition 277 00:16:10.799 --> 00:16:12.919 to it's like and I was not aware of this 278 00:16:13.000 --> 00:16:15.320 until one of my colleagues, Bill Benson. I was having 279 00:16:15.399 --> 00:16:16.960 lunch with him the other day, and he uses it 280 00:16:17.000 --> 00:16:20.399 a lot in his clinical work and generating brand content. 281 00:16:20.480 --> 00:16:23.480 He's a therapist friend of mine who just does amazing 282 00:16:23.720 --> 00:16:25.679 types of work here in Los Angeles, and he's like 283 00:16:25.720 --> 00:16:29.200 a branding genius, and so he uses versions of AI 284 00:16:29.320 --> 00:16:32.440 that are really interesting. But this is how I was 285 00:16:32.480 --> 00:16:34.639 just ignorant about this. I had never turned on the 286 00:16:34.720 --> 00:16:37.240 voice feature where you choose the voice and you just 287 00:16:37.279 --> 00:16:41.279 basically have a conversation. So in doing the research, and 288 00:16:41.320 --> 00:16:43.519 that was backed up by our research for this episode 289 00:16:43.559 --> 00:16:46.960 of Oh, they're not just texting back and forth, although 290 00:16:47.000 --> 00:16:49.159 that can happen, which can, I guess in some ways 291 00:16:49.200 --> 00:16:54.480 can make it seem even more real because everybody texts today, right, true, 292 00:16:55.279 --> 00:16:57.519 but you have to think of this building on what 293 00:16:57.519 --> 00:17:00.639 you already laid down chat, GPT and tools similar to it. 294 00:17:01.480 --> 00:17:04.599 They're basically autocomplete on steroids. And in the same way 295 00:17:04.640 --> 00:17:07.519 that our phones guessed the next word in a text message, 296 00:17:07.599 --> 00:17:10.319 right if you have that feature turned on, these models 297 00:17:10.480 --> 00:17:13.279 guess the next word and the next sentence, the next paragraph, 298 00:17:13.480 --> 00:17:18.599 all within a conceptual framework. That it's holding in the background. Right, 299 00:17:18.960 --> 00:17:21.720 So it's a large language model that's doing all these 300 00:17:21.759 --> 00:17:25.359 things what seems like simultaneously because the processing speed is 301 00:17:25.400 --> 00:17:28.079 so fast and it's happening at such a scale and 302 00:17:28.160 --> 00:17:30.240 such a level of sophistication that it makes it feel 303 00:17:30.240 --> 00:17:34.160 like you're chatting with the real person. But it's still predictive, 304 00:17:34.839 --> 00:17:37.759 but it's not understanding. Yeah, and I wish people could 305 00:17:37.839 --> 00:17:41.480 kind of really remember that that it's not understanding, it's 306 00:17:41.559 --> 00:17:45.240 just predicting what it thinks you're going to say next, 307 00:17:45.359 --> 00:17:48.559 or what you want to hear. So Psychiatric Times recently 308 00:17:48.599 --> 00:17:53.240 published clinicians notes about patients who came into the office 309 00:17:53.240 --> 00:17:57.160 saying things like this, AI confirmed my suspicion that I'm 310 00:17:57.200 --> 00:18:00.359 living in a digital prison, or that the chat bot 311 00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:06.640 agreed with beliefs of hypervigilance and paranoia about government surveillance. 312 00:18:06.680 --> 00:18:08.720 And here's the thing, And an example like that is 313 00:18:08.799 --> 00:18:11.920 that maybe years ago would have been considered a bizarre delusion, 314 00:18:12.039 --> 00:18:13.440 but now we would look at it as a non 315 00:18:13.440 --> 00:18:15.920 bizarre delusion because the government does surveyll us and all 316 00:18:15.960 --> 00:18:19.480 of our devices have an element of listening, like you 317 00:18:19.559 --> 00:18:23.519 have to know to turn certain things off or else 318 00:18:23.599 --> 00:18:26.279 they're listening to you is you know, I'm probably the 319 00:18:26.559 --> 00:18:29.559 boring the hell out of whoever is following me, but 320 00:18:30.359 --> 00:18:33.720 it can happen, right, But that fact that the chatbot 321 00:18:33.960 --> 00:18:38.359 isn't creating psychosis, but it is echoing and validating those 322 00:18:38.440 --> 00:18:41.039 types of beliefs and behaviors, and that's going to make 323 00:18:41.039 --> 00:18:44.720 these delusions even stickier. I don't want to say fixated, 324 00:18:44.759 --> 00:18:46.440 but it's definitely going to make them stickier. 325 00:18:46.880 --> 00:18:49.839 Yeah, definitely. And we'll get into some of the sort 326 00:18:49.839 --> 00:18:52.759 of themes of delusions that we're starting to see, but 327 00:18:53.000 --> 00:18:56.680 just for a brief refresher on psychosis. This typically happens 328 00:18:56.680 --> 00:18:59.079 when someone loses touch with reality. That's kind of the 329 00:18:59.119 --> 00:19:03.440 hallmark term that we use. So this can mean hearing 330 00:19:03.519 --> 00:19:06.160 or seeing things that others don't. It can also mean 331 00:19:06.240 --> 00:19:11.160 holding strong beliefs that actually aren't true. Sometimes it ends 332 00:19:11.240 --> 00:19:14.559 up showing up is very confused or disorganized thinking in speech, 333 00:19:14.720 --> 00:19:17.119 and maybe all of those things together. So those are 334 00:19:17.119 --> 00:19:21.359 really the three main hallmarks of psychosis. Hallucinations, delusions, and 335 00:19:21.640 --> 00:19:27.160 or disorganized thinking. Hallucinations. Again, I just want to differentiate 336 00:19:27.160 --> 00:19:30.079 these because they often get swapped. Hallucinations are when a 337 00:19:30.160 --> 00:19:34.200 person hears, sees, or even feels, smells, or tastes things 338 00:19:34.240 --> 00:19:37.559 that aren't really there, but to them they seem completely real. 339 00:19:37.759 --> 00:19:41.519 A common example hearing voices right. Delusions, on the other hand, 340 00:19:41.559 --> 00:19:45.000 are going to be strong false beliefs, strong beliefs that 341 00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:47.960 aren't shared by other people, like believing that there's a 342 00:19:48.119 --> 00:19:51.000 conspiracy to cause them harm. The one we've always used 343 00:19:51.000 --> 00:19:53.559 as like a bizaars that you were abducted by aliens 344 00:19:53.640 --> 00:19:56.720 last night and all your organs were replaced. Okay, all right, yeah, 345 00:19:56.759 --> 00:19:58.559 bizarre allough and. 346 00:19:58.480 --> 00:20:01.480 Again falling along with several of our episodes as well. 347 00:20:01.559 --> 00:20:04.160 Fola do is a delusion that is shared by too. 348 00:20:04.319 --> 00:20:07.279 Delusions can become like a virus, and they can travel 349 00:20:07.279 --> 00:20:11.079 from person to person, given the power of the originator 350 00:20:11.240 --> 00:20:15.400 of that belief and the willingness to go along by 351 00:20:15.640 --> 00:20:16.720 the people who are listening. 352 00:20:17.119 --> 00:20:19.359 Yes, and everybody put a pin in that we will 353 00:20:19.359 --> 00:20:19.920 come back to that. 354 00:20:20.359 --> 00:20:20.640 Yeah. 355 00:20:20.680 --> 00:20:24.319 So, disorganized thinking is when thoughts come so quickly and 356 00:20:24.440 --> 00:20:28.759 jumbled that the person's speech can sound really fast and 357 00:20:28.839 --> 00:20:31.359 rapid and confusing, and they're just really hard to follow. 358 00:20:31.799 --> 00:20:34.960 So when hallucinations and delusions happen together, they can be 359 00:20:35.079 --> 00:20:38.720 really really distressing for that person and cause these big 360 00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:43.319 changes in behavior. So essentially, going through these symptoms is 361 00:20:43.400 --> 00:20:45.920 often what we call a psychotic episode. 362 00:20:46.119 --> 00:20:49.440 So the majority of individuals who have a break with 363 00:20:49.559 --> 00:20:54.039 reality often will show changes in their behavior before the 364 00:20:54.079 --> 00:20:57.680 full blown psychosis emerges. So when we look at this clinically, 365 00:20:57.720 --> 00:21:02.880 the behavioral warning signs for psychosis are going to include suspiciousness, hypervigilance, 366 00:21:02.960 --> 00:21:09.079 paranoid ideas, which then sort of transitions into social impairments 367 00:21:09.119 --> 00:21:11.880 like uneasiness with others, which is understandable what you would 368 00:21:11.880 --> 00:21:13.839 be suspicious of the people that you're around if you 369 00:21:13.880 --> 00:21:17.160 had these ideas that people are against you. The problems 370 00:21:17.200 --> 00:21:21.119 that you mentioned in disorganized thinking trouble thinking clearly and logically, 371 00:21:21.160 --> 00:21:24.759 that disorganized piece is think of, you know, when you're 372 00:21:24.759 --> 00:21:28.559 talking and having a conversation, there's a virtual set of 373 00:21:29.000 --> 00:21:33.119 scrabble tiles in your head that are just falling all 374 00:21:33.160 --> 00:21:35.480 in the right order. And then when you think of 375 00:21:35.519 --> 00:21:39.400 someone who has, you know, pretty significant disorganized thought, it's 376 00:21:39.440 --> 00:21:42.200 a jumble of tiles in their head and they are 377 00:21:42.240 --> 00:21:44.680 trying to make sense of something and it may actually 378 00:21:44.680 --> 00:21:46.319 make sense to them, but it's not going to make 379 00:21:46.359 --> 00:21:48.240 sense to those of us that are outside doing the 380 00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:51.160 evaluation or trying to communicate with them. Then, of course 381 00:21:51.200 --> 00:21:54.200 there's the social aspects withdrawing socially, spending a lot more 382 00:21:54.240 --> 00:21:59.000 time alone because that feels safer and more controllable. Unusual 383 00:21:59.519 --> 00:22:04.720 or buses are or overly intense ideas, uncomfortable, strange feelings 384 00:22:05.200 --> 00:22:09.160 or a lack of feelings, or a misinterpretation of the 385 00:22:09.279 --> 00:22:14.039 data around them. I'm feeling this, therefore it means this, 386 00:22:14.400 --> 00:22:17.839 and that can go very wrong, very quickly. There's also 387 00:22:18.240 --> 00:22:21.720 an obvious decline in self care personal hygiene. This can 388 00:22:21.720 --> 00:22:24.359 come for and no reasons. You're at your most vulnerable 389 00:22:24.359 --> 00:22:26.720 when you're naked and bathing, like how can you protect 390 00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:29.359 yourself when you're naked, covered in water and standing on tile, 391 00:22:29.960 --> 00:22:33.400 and people get very scared about that, right. Disruptions in 392 00:22:33.480 --> 00:22:36.359 sleep because of the just overfiring of all the chemicals 393 00:22:36.400 --> 00:22:39.799 in the brain, Difficulty falling asleep, and then reduced sleep time, 394 00:22:40.119 --> 00:22:42.599 and then you get into a vicious cycle because poor 395 00:22:42.640 --> 00:22:46.240 sleep has an immediate impact on our mental health. Difficulty 396 00:22:46.319 --> 00:22:50.160 telling reality from fantasy, which I think is harder and 397 00:22:50.200 --> 00:22:53.359 harder in today's world because a lot of the content 398 00:22:53.400 --> 00:22:56.079 that's out there that is driven to make money, it 399 00:22:56.119 --> 00:22:58.720 is created to make money, and it is created to 400 00:22:58.759 --> 00:23:02.680 have a certain agenda can really take people in the 401 00:23:02.680 --> 00:23:05.839 wrong direction. Even if you've never been formally diagnosed with anything, 402 00:23:05.960 --> 00:23:07.920 you can be taken in the wrong direction right and 403 00:23:07.960 --> 00:23:12.200 then having difficulties with speech, difficulties in communication for a 404 00:23:12.279 --> 00:23:15.839 number of reasons. Maybe you're having hallucinations or delusions that 405 00:23:15.880 --> 00:23:17.720 you're not supposed to talk, that the next person you 406 00:23:17.759 --> 00:23:20.240 talk to is going to punch you. That can be 407 00:23:20.319 --> 00:23:24.200 a real problem in social interactions. And when you're looking 408 00:23:24.200 --> 00:23:28.000 at a younger population, a sudden drop in grades or 409 00:23:28.079 --> 00:23:31.799 a drop in job performance is usually a big sign, 410 00:23:31.880 --> 00:23:35.680 like it just seems to happen so rapidly that it's 411 00:23:35.759 --> 00:23:40.119 outside what would be expected from normal developmental teenagers and 412 00:23:40.240 --> 00:23:42.279 a young person or a teenager. But it doesn't just 413 00:23:42.359 --> 00:23:45.559 have one cause. Psychosis is complex. It comes from a 414 00:23:45.640 --> 00:23:50.000 mix of factors like genetics, brain development, life stress, or trauma. 415 00:23:50.799 --> 00:23:52.440 It can show up as part of mental illnesses like 416 00:23:52.440 --> 00:23:56.920 schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. People can have such intense manic 417 00:23:57.000 --> 00:24:02.359 episodes that they really fall into this soup of delusion 418 00:24:02.400 --> 00:24:04.799 about their own abilities or about the world around them, 419 00:24:05.200 --> 00:24:09.279 and you can also have psychosis that stems from severe, 420 00:24:09.440 --> 00:24:14.359 severe major depression. Luckily, not everybody who experienced a psychosis 421 00:24:14.519 --> 00:24:17.599 has one of these diagnoses, because, for better or worse, 422 00:24:17.680 --> 00:24:21.160 mental health is incredibly complex, and every time we learn 423 00:24:21.200 --> 00:24:24.920 more about the aspects of the brain, we get a 424 00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:28.359 great fund of knowledge that then leads to even more questions. 425 00:24:28.920 --> 00:24:31.880 So an older adult psychosis can be sometimes linked to 426 00:24:31.920 --> 00:24:35.960 health issues, even like a UTI like a uterine infection 427 00:24:36.039 --> 00:24:39.240 in an older individual can cause a rapid change in 428 00:24:39.279 --> 00:24:44.880 behavior and hallucinations that are linked to delirium, but it's 429 00:24:45.119 --> 00:24:50.359 more commonly associated with Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, or other types of dementia. 430 00:24:50.440 --> 00:24:52.359 It can also be triggered by things like lack of 431 00:24:52.359 --> 00:24:57.720 sleep that we mentioned earlier, certain medications, or certain medication interactions. 432 00:24:58.200 --> 00:25:01.279 If an elderly person or an person is going to 433 00:25:01.359 --> 00:25:04.119 three different doctors for three different you're hoping they're looking 434 00:25:04.160 --> 00:25:06.799 at all the medications, but that doesn't always happen. And 435 00:25:06.839 --> 00:25:09.359 then of course, also there's alcohol and drug use. Like 436 00:25:09.680 --> 00:25:14.200 severe severe alcoholism can cause a number of problems, Like 437 00:25:14.240 --> 00:25:16.519 when you're at the point where you're wet brained, you 438 00:25:16.559 --> 00:25:19.319 know you have just really screwed up the electrical system 439 00:25:19.319 --> 00:25:21.519 in your brain, and that's not a good thing. And 440 00:25:21.559 --> 00:25:24.039 then the street drugs that are available out there, as 441 00:25:24.079 --> 00:25:28.440 we've talked about many times, the versions of speed and 442 00:25:28.599 --> 00:25:31.799 methamphetamine that are out on the street are causing what's 443 00:25:31.839 --> 00:25:35.359 been termed methaphrenia, you know, by us working in field teams. 444 00:25:35.359 --> 00:25:39.400 It's really sad. And when doctors are diagnosing something like schizophrenia, 445 00:25:39.519 --> 00:25:43.359 they first rule out all these other possible causes as 446 00:25:43.799 --> 00:25:45.519 well as they can, and if they're left with the 447 00:25:45.559 --> 00:25:50.440 hallucinations and the delusions, that's when a psychotic disorder sort 448 00:25:50.440 --> 00:25:53.599 of diagnostically rises to the surface. 449 00:25:54.400 --> 00:25:58.279 Yeah, complex doesn't even cover it. When you're trying to 450 00:25:58.839 --> 00:26:02.240 dissect some of these things and see what is going 451 00:26:02.279 --> 00:26:04.720 on here, you know, is this drug use? Is this psychosis? 452 00:26:04.799 --> 00:26:08.519 Is this both? Are they self medicating with one to 453 00:26:08.599 --> 00:26:11.720 try and tamp down the other. It's it's really a 454 00:26:11.880 --> 00:26:15.240 long assessment process for a lot of people. So I 455 00:26:15.279 --> 00:26:18.519 think we laid the foundation for psychosis maybe just talking 456 00:26:18.559 --> 00:26:20.720 about where we're at kind of with AI. I know 457 00:26:20.759 --> 00:26:24.160 we touched on it, but this might clarify a little 458 00:26:24.160 --> 00:26:27.920 bit where we're going today. So again we are so 459 00:26:28.279 --> 00:26:31.839 in the midst of the capabilities of artificial intelligence, it's 460 00:26:32.160 --> 00:26:34.480 kind of tough to say where we're at today, and 461 00:26:34.519 --> 00:26:36.160 it will probably be different by the time we are 462 00:26:36.160 --> 00:26:38.480 finished with this episode, and certainly by the time it 463 00:26:38.519 --> 00:26:40.759 comes out in a couple of weeks. But essentially today's 464 00:26:40.799 --> 00:26:45.240 AI capabilities include generative AI, probably with the majority of 465 00:26:45.359 --> 00:26:49.279 us use AI four right. This is the creation of text, images, 466 00:26:49.880 --> 00:26:53.480 and video, kind of getting our questions answered or our 467 00:26:53.759 --> 00:26:57.240 ideas a little bit more refined. As we said earlier. 468 00:26:57.359 --> 00:27:01.599 The other current capabilities include that machine learning, so learning 469 00:27:01.640 --> 00:27:06.039 from data to make predictions, natural language processing attempting to 470 00:27:06.160 --> 00:27:11.640 understand right and generating human language, computer vision so interpreting 471 00:27:11.720 --> 00:27:15.680 images and videos, and then everything kind of under the 472 00:27:15.759 --> 00:27:21.720 umbrella of robotics. So these AI technologies are powering applications 473 00:27:21.759 --> 00:27:27.200 such as self driving cars and advanced chatbots and medical 474 00:27:27.240 --> 00:27:32.960 diagnostic tools, fraud detection systems, and all sorts of personalized 475 00:27:33.119 --> 00:27:36.400 recommendation engines. I swear every time I see a Waymo 476 00:27:36.519 --> 00:27:39.440 car in downtown LA, I'm like, damn, those things are 477 00:27:39.440 --> 00:27:43.000 pretty good. Like it's weights at a signal behind a 478 00:27:43.039 --> 00:27:44.960 car who's turning left and then just decides Okay, I'm 479 00:27:44.960 --> 00:27:46.319 going to go around it. It's safe to do so 480 00:27:46.400 --> 00:27:48.000 I'm like, all right. 481 00:27:48.200 --> 00:27:50.079 Yeah, it's wild. 482 00:27:50.519 --> 00:27:52.880 Yeah, it is wild to see out in the wild. 483 00:27:53.680 --> 00:27:58.039 But the idea for sort of doing good or doing 484 00:27:58.079 --> 00:28:01.799 good work with AI is that it will transform industries 485 00:28:01.920 --> 00:28:06.799 and daily life by increasing efficiency and automating tasks that 486 00:28:06.880 --> 00:28:12.200 humans are doing and really uncovering insights from these vast databases. 487 00:28:12.440 --> 00:28:17.839 So it's really so much more than this. I mean again, 488 00:28:17.920 --> 00:28:19.680 like we keep saying like this is just the tip 489 00:28:19.680 --> 00:28:20.799 of the iceberg. 490 00:28:20.559 --> 00:28:22.839 Right, and I just want to tack on one thing 491 00:28:23.039 --> 00:28:25.279 to that bit that you just shared, and that is 492 00:28:25.319 --> 00:28:29.400 the idea that there is another real concern about when 493 00:28:29.440 --> 00:28:31.839 we think about looking back at old Star Trek episodes 494 00:28:31.839 --> 00:28:34.359 and sort of what the Star Trek universe looks like. 495 00:28:34.480 --> 00:28:38.279 It's like a very socialist utopia early in the seasons 496 00:28:38.359 --> 00:28:40.559 or early in the series. But the idea of well, 497 00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:44.200 what happens when all these tasks get automated, like what 498 00:28:44.359 --> 00:28:46.799 work will there be? And it seems like governments around 499 00:28:46.799 --> 00:28:50.839 the world send the public mixed messages like we want 500 00:28:50.960 --> 00:28:53.920 you our birth rates are declining, so we want you 501 00:28:53.960 --> 00:28:55.839 to have tons of babies, but we're not going to 502 00:28:55.839 --> 00:29:01.240 put any policies in place that support moms families. We're 503 00:29:01.240 --> 00:29:02.839 not going to do anything to like make sure that 504 00:29:02.880 --> 00:29:05.640 there's all these places and things to help support that. 505 00:29:06.240 --> 00:29:09.240 And what's going to happen when even when places like 506 00:29:09.319 --> 00:29:13.640 other countries that we rely on for our products that 507 00:29:13.640 --> 00:29:17.720 we buy uses more and more automation and there's billions 508 00:29:17.759 --> 00:29:21.000 of people around the world like, does that mean where 509 00:29:21.039 --> 00:29:24.079 does the income come from? Where does the agriculture? Is 510 00:29:24.119 --> 00:29:27.519 becoming more and more automated by use of AI and 511 00:29:27.599 --> 00:29:30.720 satellite They don't even drive the huge tractors anymore. It's 512 00:29:30.799 --> 00:29:34.039 done by a bot, you know. Yeah, harvesting No, it's 513 00:29:34.039 --> 00:29:37.559 so yeah, there's it's a very widespread issue beyond what 514 00:29:37.599 --> 00:29:38.559 we're talking about today. 515 00:29:38.599 --> 00:29:40.960 Well that and then you know, when I do get 516 00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:43.440 curious and excited for things, it's like, how is this 517 00:29:43.480 --> 00:29:46.640 going to change certain industries? And I was at a 518 00:29:46.839 --> 00:29:49.720 training that was all about AI for policing just as 519 00:29:49.759 --> 00:29:53.319 a like a quick example. And the man who was 520 00:29:53.559 --> 00:29:56.480 speaking and I will put he has a new podcast 521 00:29:56.519 --> 00:29:59.279 all about AI and policing, and I'll put that in 522 00:29:59.319 --> 00:30:03.799 the show notes. But he was talking about like essentially 523 00:30:03.920 --> 00:30:06.440 they have said in two years, we're going to be 524 00:30:06.480 --> 00:30:09.480 able to talk to crows, like we're going to be 525 00:30:09.480 --> 00:30:10.599 able to communicate with them. 526 00:30:10.839 --> 00:30:12.400 I'm already talking I already do I know? 527 00:30:12.480 --> 00:30:14.480 Well, I know you're already talking to crows because quarrels, 528 00:30:14.559 --> 00:30:15.599 you've you've. 529 00:30:15.559 --> 00:30:17.799 Broken that mold, already broken that language. 530 00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:20.440 So okay, so what the hell is I have to 531 00:30:20.480 --> 00:30:22.599 do with policing? Right? But we were then posing the 532 00:30:22.680 --> 00:30:25.759 question like, okay, so let's say there's a homicide in 533 00:30:25.799 --> 00:30:29.759 South Los Angeles and homicide detectives are interviewing their witnesses 534 00:30:30.119 --> 00:30:32.200 and you see some crows up on the wire. Are 535 00:30:32.200 --> 00:30:34.720 we then going to interview them? Right? Are they now 536 00:30:34.720 --> 00:30:37.039 witnesses to a crime? What kind of rights do they have? 537 00:30:37.400 --> 00:30:40.519 Do we call them into court? Like it was like 538 00:30:40.599 --> 00:30:43.440 you could take off those last like one little thing 539 00:30:44.079 --> 00:30:46.640 and you know, not to mention like the tech part 540 00:30:46.720 --> 00:30:50.319 of policing or cameras or it telling you what to 541 00:30:50.359 --> 00:30:52.559 get ready for sending a drone ahead and saying the 542 00:30:52.599 --> 00:30:54.759 suspects doing this or whatever. We're already kind of doing that. 543 00:30:55.279 --> 00:30:57.680 But just like it goes off the rails really quick 544 00:30:57.720 --> 00:30:59.000 to be like is there going to be a crow 545 00:30:59.039 --> 00:31:01.599 sitting on a witness stand swearing on a bible, Like. 546 00:31:01.559 --> 00:31:05.880 What I mean, it's funny because there's a great meme 547 00:31:05.920 --> 00:31:08.839 that goes around and it's like there's a person going, oh, 548 00:31:08.960 --> 00:31:11.880 I love listen to the birds singing, this is so wonderful. 549 00:31:11.920 --> 00:31:13.759 I just wish I knew what they were saying. And 550 00:31:13.799 --> 00:31:16.759 then in the next frames it translated is like, there's 551 00:31:16.799 --> 00:31:19.519 food over here. Where's food, here's food. Hey want to fuck, 552 00:31:19.599 --> 00:31:22.960 let's fuck over here? My min min min min mind mind. 553 00:31:23.079 --> 00:31:25.799 So it holds a lot of promise for a bunch 554 00:31:25.799 --> 00:31:29.640 of different things. But as Black Mirror, the BBC series 555 00:31:29.720 --> 00:31:32.640 or the Netflix series that's produced in England has shown 556 00:31:32.720 --> 00:31:36.319 us some pretty scary versions of what can happen when 557 00:31:36.319 --> 00:31:38.920 that's out of control. So one of the biggest debates 558 00:31:38.920 --> 00:31:43.279 about AI right now is in many levels of the 559 00:31:43.400 --> 00:31:47.279 education system, teachers and professors are already seeing students use 560 00:31:47.359 --> 00:31:51.400 tools like chat GPT, but not you know, strictly chatty GPT. 561 00:31:51.519 --> 00:31:55.400 There's other ones that are specifically academic tools, like hey, 562 00:31:55.839 --> 00:31:57.599 this will write your essays, this is going to solve 563 00:31:57.599 --> 00:32:00.599 the math problems, and it's even going to generate computer code. 564 00:32:00.599 --> 00:32:03.920 Although interestingly, as I was writing this, because computer code 565 00:32:03.960 --> 00:32:06.039 was going to be the thing that they say AI 566 00:32:06.200 --> 00:32:08.039 is just going to do wonderful jobs, is going to 567 00:32:08.039 --> 00:32:11.440 take coding to a whole different level. And there are 568 00:32:11.440 --> 00:32:15.480 coders out there going, yeah, it's garbage. Oh you know 569 00:32:15.880 --> 00:32:17.440 where it is right now, And that doesn't mean in 570 00:32:17.480 --> 00:32:20.160 two years it's not going to be amazing. But like 571 00:32:20.480 --> 00:32:23.000 people are and maybe we're being a little bit reactive 572 00:32:23.359 --> 00:32:25.359 in talking about this, you know, because we have a 573 00:32:25.359 --> 00:32:28.559 bias to the things that we see as problematic and 574 00:32:28.599 --> 00:32:31.599 maybe something good will happen, but we'll see. But a 575 00:32:31.599 --> 00:32:34.200 lot of people within using it for education purposes or 576 00:32:34.240 --> 00:32:37.279 training or school like they think, well, this is harmless help. 577 00:32:37.319 --> 00:32:39.799 But the research out there shows that it can blur 578 00:32:39.920 --> 00:32:42.759 the line between getting assistants and just full on letting 579 00:32:43.000 --> 00:32:45.559 a machine do the work for you. And I get it. 580 00:32:45.599 --> 00:32:47.319 I mean there can be big worries for the future 581 00:32:47.400 --> 00:32:50.279 education as a whole. Like I said, we sort of 582 00:32:50.319 --> 00:32:53.839 adopted this probably three years ago, and I'll look at 583 00:32:53.880 --> 00:32:56.279 something and go is that the right order? And I'll 584 00:32:56.359 --> 00:32:58.240 use it like, hey, is this the best order? And 585 00:32:58.359 --> 00:33:01.319 chat will come back and go based on this. Listeners 586 00:33:01.400 --> 00:33:03.440 tend to like to listen to things in this order, 587 00:33:03.559 --> 00:33:07.000 maybe try this or reword it this way. So I 588 00:33:07.079 --> 00:33:10.519 feel like it's been a great tool to teach me things, 589 00:33:10.599 --> 00:33:12.720 but there are others like, no, let's just use it 590 00:33:12.720 --> 00:33:16.319 to write everything. But this does pose a problem that 591 00:33:16.400 --> 00:33:18.920 is being talked about because in the long run, what 592 00:33:19.079 --> 00:33:23.480 happens when entire classes or generations of graduates haven't actually 593 00:33:23.559 --> 00:33:26.519 learned anything that their degrees were supposed to teach them. 594 00:33:27.359 --> 00:33:29.640 And I won't get into a debate about this because 595 00:33:29.680 --> 00:33:33.680 I hate it that there's an anti intellectualism drive that 596 00:33:33.799 --> 00:33:36.440 just talks about how stupid college is and you should 597 00:33:36.440 --> 00:33:41.200 go trade bitcoing and blommity blomady bloc. Because college, whether 598 00:33:41.279 --> 00:33:44.079 you go to a state college or a private university 599 00:33:44.200 --> 00:33:48.960 or a community college, it provides you with another formation 600 00:33:49.039 --> 00:33:52.759 of your identity as an adult, in your individuation from 601 00:33:52.759 --> 00:33:55.680 your family of origin, and that is actually really important. 602 00:33:55.759 --> 00:33:58.079 It's exposing you to the world at large. You're learning 603 00:33:58.119 --> 00:34:00.839 new social skills, and you're also so to be learning 604 00:34:00.880 --> 00:34:03.799 a subject. But I want to point out that this 605 00:34:03.880 --> 00:34:05.839 has been going on for decades, Like people go, oh, 606 00:34:05.839 --> 00:34:07.519 they're not going to learn anything. When I did my 607 00:34:07.640 --> 00:34:10.760 undergrad I went to a school that really should have 608 00:34:10.800 --> 00:34:12.599 been out of my reach, and I was lucky to 609 00:34:12.719 --> 00:34:16.599 have gotten a partial scholarship for it. But it was 610 00:34:16.840 --> 00:34:20.360 academically fantastic and I worked my ass off, and I 611 00:34:20.719 --> 00:34:25.800 was not Greek. I was a GDI and Gamma delta iota, 612 00:34:25.880 --> 00:34:27.679 which was you know, I don't know, have you ever 613 00:34:27.679 --> 00:34:30.400 heard that of goddamn independent? So its a GDI is 614 00:34:30.400 --> 00:34:33.760 goddamn independent. Oh I'm not a GA. But people have 615 00:34:33.880 --> 00:34:36.920 been cheating for years, Like the fraternity brothers that lived 616 00:34:36.920 --> 00:34:39.960 on my dorm floor all had access to the filing 617 00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:44.000 cabinet in their frat house that had every professor's tests 618 00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:47.840 in a folder organized so wow, and the sororities did 619 00:34:47.840 --> 00:34:50.480 it too. Now I'm not saying that everybody did it, 620 00:34:50.480 --> 00:34:52.519 but this is what I witnessed going to a four 621 00:34:52.599 --> 00:34:55.519 year at that time, before AI and before any of 622 00:34:55.559 --> 00:34:59.079 us had computers. But the alleged concerns are not just 623 00:34:59.079 --> 00:35:02.320 about cheating. It's about other over Reliance on those systems 624 00:35:02.320 --> 00:35:05.840 could erode critical thinking and problem solving skills, and that 625 00:35:05.960 --> 00:35:09.679 is a very real concern because talking about those old 626 00:35:09.719 --> 00:35:13.280 methods of cheating actually required you to learn something, so 627 00:35:13.320 --> 00:35:16.199 people thought that they were full on cheating and actually 628 00:35:16.199 --> 00:35:18.840 what you were doing was cramming, you know, airing all 629 00:35:18.880 --> 00:35:19.920 those cheat things right. 630 00:35:19.960 --> 00:35:22.559 I was always like, how did people go to college 631 00:35:22.559 --> 00:35:27.320 before the internet or like especially grad school, but like 632 00:35:27.440 --> 00:35:29.280 the internet was just come. I still had to go 633 00:35:29.320 --> 00:35:31.880 to a physical library a lot in undergrad, but I 634 00:35:32.079 --> 00:35:36.000 was in awe of people who just the time right, 635 00:35:36.119 --> 00:35:38.559 Like the time to go there and look things up 636 00:35:39.079 --> 00:35:43.760 got simplified for us, especially by graduate school, but many by. 637 00:35:43.679 --> 00:35:46.079 The time I was writing my dissertation, it was amazing 638 00:35:46.119 --> 00:35:49.679 because you were getting all of the latest research articles 639 00:35:49.760 --> 00:35:52.440 through epsco host and then you could like, well, this 640 00:35:52.480 --> 00:35:55.920 doesn't work, and then it was just amazing. One of 641 00:35:56.000 --> 00:35:58.679 my favorite professors told us a story that I thought 642 00:35:58.719 --> 00:36:02.400 was like a nightmare. She talked about her education thirty 643 00:36:02.480 --> 00:36:06.679 years prior required her to use a toy wagon to 644 00:36:06.800 --> 00:36:10.239 bring in all the copies of her printed dissertation, the 645 00:36:10.320 --> 00:36:13.119 ten copies that had to be reviewed. I was like, 646 00:36:13.239 --> 00:36:16.400 oh my god, like just the printing costs alone. But anyway, 647 00:36:16.480 --> 00:36:18.760 on the creative side, the legal fights are also heating 648 00:36:18.840 --> 00:36:23.320 up authors, artists, coders. They've all sued AI companies for 649 00:36:23.440 --> 00:36:27.920 training their models on copyrighted work without permission and that's 650 00:36:27.920 --> 00:36:28.280 a no. 651 00:36:28.280 --> 00:36:28.360 No. 652 00:36:28.840 --> 00:36:31.800 One of the examples is Anderson versus Stability AI from 653 00:36:31.800 --> 00:36:35.400 twenty twenty three, talks about how artists claiming that their 654 00:36:35.480 --> 00:36:39.719 styles were essentially scraped from the Internet and then replicated, 655 00:36:40.079 --> 00:36:42.760 and then in Taylor versus Pualmutter in twenty twenty three, 656 00:36:43.119 --> 00:36:45.599 the court rule that AI generated art could not be 657 00:36:45.760 --> 00:36:50.239 copyrighted because it didn't involve human authorship. So these cases 658 00:36:50.400 --> 00:36:53.079 showed the tension AI can open doors to creativity but 659 00:36:53.199 --> 00:36:57.280 also raises the risk of undermining the very foundational ideas 660 00:36:57.320 --> 00:36:59.480 of authorship and originality. 661 00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:04.159 It super interesting, like where someone previously to let's say, 662 00:37:04.239 --> 00:37:09.360 like create a fake painting like Monet, had to find 663 00:37:09.400 --> 00:37:12.039 the skill to do that right, to create a fake 664 00:37:12.920 --> 00:37:16.159 is now just doing it in a whole different way. 665 00:37:16.199 --> 00:37:18.639 And I know, like obviously it's not like pain no. 666 00:37:19.039 --> 00:37:22.199 No, but it okay, And I don't I find it. 667 00:37:22.320 --> 00:37:26.920 That's a really fascinating conversation because there is an art 668 00:37:27.079 --> 00:37:31.280 and a skill to directing AI to do what you 669 00:37:31.360 --> 00:37:33.840 want it to do. Yeah, and I am still learning 670 00:37:33.880 --> 00:37:36.719 it because I've generated some images for like projects I've 671 00:37:36.719 --> 00:37:41.639 worked on, and you know, I like, first, somebody's smile 672 00:37:41.800 --> 00:37:43.519 is on the wrong side of their face and all 673 00:37:43.559 --> 00:37:45.800 the words are backwards and they've got eight fingers, you know. 674 00:37:46.280 --> 00:37:49.320 But it does connect to a broader cultural conversation about 675 00:37:49.360 --> 00:37:51.679 what counts as authentic I think. And a good example 676 00:37:52.320 --> 00:37:55.800 is this huge uproar in twenty twenty two about a 677 00:37:55.840 --> 00:37:59.760 piece of work entitled Theater de Opera spatial I have 678 00:37:59.840 --> 00:38:02.480 to myth for me that loves sci fi and fiction 679 00:38:02.599 --> 00:38:06.000 and strange art. It's a really interesting piece of work. 680 00:38:06.039 --> 00:38:09.880 It's a digital image that was created with mid Journey 681 00:38:10.599 --> 00:38:13.639 and it actually won a prize at the Colorado State 682 00:38:13.719 --> 00:38:16.400 Fair Art competition, and the judges didn't realize it was 683 00:38:16.440 --> 00:38:18.480 AI generated, and when the truth came out, there was 684 00:38:18.480 --> 00:38:21.920 this huge uproar with some of the competing artists accusing 685 00:38:22.079 --> 00:38:25.760 their colleague of deception, and then other artists were saying, well, 686 00:38:26.239 --> 00:38:29.320 the piece and the use of AI was in fact 687 00:38:29.400 --> 00:38:34.639 a potential legitimate new medium of art creation, and that 688 00:38:34.760 --> 00:38:38.440 single contest became a flashpoint is this creativity or is 689 00:38:38.480 --> 00:38:42.800 it just data driven mimicry? And then what does it 690 00:38:42.880 --> 00:38:46.039 mean when a machine generated piece can fool experts and 691 00:38:46.039 --> 00:38:50.480 claim recognition in what is supposed to be human only spaces? 692 00:38:50.840 --> 00:38:53.280 I mean, I look at the YouTube music I have 693 00:38:53.639 --> 00:38:56.880 running in the background sometimes to clear out my neural 694 00:38:56.960 --> 00:39:00.320 noise so I can work the artwork for it is 695 00:39:00.440 --> 00:39:04.760 so clearly like to me, it's very fake. It looks 696 00:39:04.840 --> 00:39:07.760 like a fake version of something that was a cute idea. 697 00:39:08.360 --> 00:39:12.280 But it's getting better and better and better, Like what's 698 00:39:12.280 --> 00:39:16.039 going to happen when so I'm EXPERIENCD what's called Uncanny Valley, Like, 699 00:39:16.079 --> 00:39:18.519 to me, that looks wrong, but it will get to 700 00:39:18.519 --> 00:39:21.480 the point where it doesn't look so wrong anymore, or right. 701 00:39:21.360 --> 00:39:24.400 On, the cuss works kind of wrong still, and that's 702 00:39:24.639 --> 00:39:27.159 like the weirdest point of uncanny Valley. 703 00:39:28.320 --> 00:39:31.920 Yeah, I mean for me, like the AI generated portraits 704 00:39:32.119 --> 00:39:35.559 or headshots. Yeah, and everybody's crowing about how great they are, 705 00:39:35.599 --> 00:39:37.440 and I look at them and every single one of 706 00:39:37.480 --> 00:39:40.960 them like that looks like a wax copy of you 707 00:39:41.239 --> 00:39:43.639 that does not look like you to me at all. Yeah, 708 00:39:43.679 --> 00:39:45.440 but oh look how good I look like. 709 00:39:51.800 --> 00:39:56.440 So another just an enormous area of concern, especially you know, 710 00:39:56.559 --> 00:40:00.320 as we kind of dive into this in terms of 711 00:40:00.360 --> 00:40:04.719 our field and ethics right and confidentiality with clients. But 712 00:40:04.960 --> 00:40:08.360 large language models like chat GPT are trained on these 713 00:40:08.360 --> 00:40:11.519 massive amounts of text pulled from the Internet, and this 714 00:40:11.559 --> 00:40:15.840 can include personal information from what is a virtual ocean 715 00:40:16.079 --> 00:40:20.519 of obscure data. Now, researchers have warned that these systems 716 00:40:20.599 --> 00:40:26.000 might inadvertently leak sensitive data or reinforce biases that are 717 00:40:26.039 --> 00:40:30.239 already baked into their training sets. So this is one 718 00:40:30.239 --> 00:40:33.760 of those emerging areas of ethics in the therapy setting, 719 00:40:34.119 --> 00:40:39.360 like how are you utilizing chatbots with some patient information 720 00:40:39.519 --> 00:40:41.760 if you're having it assist you in writing your notes 721 00:40:41.880 --> 00:40:44.920 or doing assessments like boiler plates or what have you. 722 00:40:45.559 --> 00:40:48.840 We are starting to be trained on how to use 723 00:40:48.840 --> 00:40:51.159 some of the tools, and you know, some of the 724 00:40:51.199 --> 00:40:53.400 settings that you can put on there. But I honestly 725 00:40:53.480 --> 00:40:55.639 like even if I erase its memory, I don't trust 726 00:40:55.719 --> 00:40:59.760 that at this point. Or they are now like open 727 00:40:59.840 --> 00:41:03.199 a and some other platforms are now giving what are 728 00:41:03.239 --> 00:41:07.480 supposed to be safe versions of their platforms to certain 729 00:41:07.760 --> 00:41:10.960 entities like law enforcement agencies, to say like, you might 730 00:41:11.039 --> 00:41:14.719 be generating emails with our chat bot, but it's just 731 00:41:14.760 --> 00:41:18.519 going to stay in house, and they're selling these packages. 732 00:41:18.559 --> 00:41:21.920 They're selling these products, So I don't know, it's really tough. 733 00:41:22.039 --> 00:41:26.239 I've had clients when I worked with federal offenders who 734 00:41:26.639 --> 00:41:32.360 were like amazing hackers and would hack into patient databases 735 00:41:32.400 --> 00:41:35.719 from doctors and just tool around and be like, yep, 736 00:41:35.960 --> 00:41:38.639 I got this stuff. So you know, everything you put 737 00:41:38.679 --> 00:41:40.639 out there is really scary. You know, we have a 738 00:41:40.639 --> 00:41:42.800 lot of trust in our encrypted systems that we use 739 00:41:42.880 --> 00:41:46.280 now because mostly everything's digital. But this is just opening 740 00:41:46.360 --> 00:41:50.559 a whole other Pandora's box. So in terms of AI psychosis, 741 00:41:50.599 --> 00:41:54.239 you have probably seen some very click baity stories about 742 00:41:54.400 --> 00:41:59.559 AI psychosis or people acting out violently due to this phenomenon. 743 00:41:59.679 --> 00:42:03.079 So let's peel back some layers and try to figure 744 00:42:03.119 --> 00:42:08.400 out how AI and mental health are intersecting. First off, 745 00:42:08.880 --> 00:42:12.440 the term AI psychosis is just an informal label. It 746 00:42:12.480 --> 00:42:16.760 is not a clinical diagnosis. It is not unlike some 747 00:42:16.880 --> 00:42:20.199 other mental health terms or terms for behaviors that are 748 00:42:20.239 --> 00:42:22.760 kind of being thrown around right like brain rot and 749 00:42:22.800 --> 00:42:26.239 doom scrolling. These are just phrases that have sort of 750 00:42:26.639 --> 00:42:31.320 gained traction online and in our vernacular and probably our 751 00:42:31.559 --> 00:42:35.159 young kiddos and teens and younger generations. The sort of 752 00:42:35.519 --> 00:42:38.039 terms that they're using that are come to us much 753 00:42:38.079 --> 00:42:40.880 later when they're onto something else. But just it's not 754 00:42:40.960 --> 00:42:42.960 a clinical diagnosis, right. 755 00:42:42.840 --> 00:42:45.239 And we can't even really call it a disorder, but 756 00:42:45.320 --> 00:42:47.559 we can call that it's something that is happening on 757 00:42:47.599 --> 00:42:51.159 a more regular basis that is certainly notable, So we 758 00:42:51.440 --> 00:42:54.559 want to be careful about calling it a disorder. Certainly 759 00:42:54.599 --> 00:42:57.760 are not even it's not a diagnosis, right, But the 760 00:42:57.800 --> 00:43:02.000 existence of this phenomenon has not a brand new experience 761 00:43:02.000 --> 00:43:04.639 has come out of nowhere with the rise of these chatbots, 762 00:43:04.800 --> 00:43:06.880 but the phrase has been showing up in news reports 763 00:43:06.880 --> 00:43:10.199 and even in lawsuits, so you know, it's worth unpacking 764 00:43:10.239 --> 00:43:12.679 because what we're really seeing are cases where people with 765 00:43:12.880 --> 00:43:19.199 existing vulnerabilities like anxiety, depression, or predisposition towards psychosis or 766 00:43:19.960 --> 00:43:24.239 odd or eccentric thinkings. Right, they're immersing themselves in these 767 00:43:24.320 --> 00:43:28.639 long conversations with AI companions, and those interactions sometimes seem 768 00:43:28.679 --> 00:43:33.480 to reinforce delusional or distorted thinking instead of challenging it, 769 00:43:33.920 --> 00:43:37.880 and instead of redirecting it. Because it's a predictive model, 770 00:43:38.079 --> 00:43:42.519 it's not intelligence. Intelligence would go ooh, well, based on 771 00:43:42.559 --> 00:43:44.440 all the data I have about this person, this could 772 00:43:44.480 --> 00:43:46.519 go to a dark place, so let's redirect it or 773 00:43:46.920 --> 00:43:50.880 do something. But it's not. It's just predictive conversation, and 774 00:43:50.920 --> 00:43:53.360 so for the most part today, what we're really focusing 775 00:43:53.360 --> 00:43:56.039 on is the behaviors associated with interacting with these chatbots. 776 00:43:56.440 --> 00:43:58.960 Millions of people use chat, GPT and other AI bots 777 00:43:59.280 --> 00:44:02.000 every week. Health professionals are starting to voice concern about 778 00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:04.320 what happens when you spend too much time with them. 779 00:44:04.400 --> 00:44:07.400 Right recently, there have been viral stories about people developing 780 00:44:07.920 --> 00:44:11.639 these harmful or unrealistic beliefs after the heavy use. That's 781 00:44:11.679 --> 00:44:14.880 where we get the term and in some cases, friends, family, 782 00:44:14.920 --> 00:44:20.320 and even reporters covering tech ANDAI stories have noticed this 783 00:44:20.639 --> 00:44:24.480 emergence of troubling symptoms like false beliefs, the feelings of paranoia, 784 00:44:24.880 --> 00:44:27.559 or even delusions of grandeur, which is covered in a 785 00:44:27.599 --> 00:44:30.599 podcast that we're going to highly recommend, an episode that 786 00:44:30.679 --> 00:44:34.800 everyone should listen to, especially when they're falling into the 787 00:44:34.840 --> 00:44:38.239 trap of relying on that bot as a kind of therapist. 788 00:44:38.280 --> 00:44:41.320 And that is not good. And there are companies out 789 00:44:41.360 --> 00:44:44.519 there that are actively using it. Right now, that you 790 00:44:44.719 --> 00:44:47.880 talk to a chat bot and then you eventually get 791 00:44:47.920 --> 00:44:50.760 to a therapist, I think that's problematic. I won't mention 792 00:44:50.920 --> 00:44:53.199 names because I don't want to get sued, but for 793 00:44:53.280 --> 00:44:56.280 most users of the engagement can be entertaining or quirky 794 00:44:56.360 --> 00:44:59.519 or incredibly useful. As I've shared before, I got a 795 00:44:59.519 --> 00:45:02.559 full out line for the book I've always wanted to write. 796 00:45:02.639 --> 00:45:04.800 I have the information, I have the research. I just 797 00:45:04.880 --> 00:45:07.599 needed a skeleton, and that skeleton really got me going. 798 00:45:07.920 --> 00:45:11.199 But those long conversations throughout the day and into the 799 00:45:11.320 --> 00:45:15.840 night for someone who is vulnerable and lead them towards 800 00:45:16.000 --> 00:45:19.480 the point of obsession. Just create a scenario in your 801 00:45:19.519 --> 00:45:23.239 head where you're up hours late at night in a 802 00:45:23.320 --> 00:45:27.280 conversation that does not challenged you, but it says exactly 803 00:45:27.360 --> 00:45:32.039 what you want or you fear to hear. And that's 804 00:45:32.119 --> 00:45:35.840 where our clinical concern comes in. These systems mirror something 805 00:45:35.840 --> 00:45:38.440 that we already understand in both research and clinical work 806 00:45:38.679 --> 00:45:41.400 that many times a delusional believer set of beliefs will 807 00:45:41.440 --> 00:45:46.960 get reinforced through what is called confirmation bias, and when 808 00:45:47.000 --> 00:45:50.320 the brain is looking for evidence that matches an already 809 00:45:50.360 --> 00:45:55.719 existing belief and then it simultaneously discounts all of the 810 00:45:55.760 --> 00:45:59.239 information that contradicts it. And as we explained before, a 811 00:45:59.320 --> 00:46:04.039 large lengthguage model predicts text based on the patterns that 812 00:46:04.239 --> 00:46:07.440 most often fit together. The user can fall into believing 813 00:46:07.440 --> 00:46:11.039 that the AI is actually evaluating truth, but it's not. 814 00:46:11.559 --> 00:46:15.039 It's only predicting what words are likely to come next, 815 00:46:15.320 --> 00:46:19.760 which then reinforces that nascent belief or set of beliefs. 816 00:46:20.000 --> 00:46:21.559 Yeah, so when we look at this, I think an 817 00:46:21.559 --> 00:46:24.880 obvious question is why and how do people get so 818 00:46:25.000 --> 00:46:27.960 sucked in? Even as we said, you know cases of 819 00:46:28.159 --> 00:46:31.519 individuals that aren't coming to the table with any known 820 00:46:31.679 --> 00:46:36.119 mental illness or history. So these chatbots that are using 821 00:46:36.199 --> 00:46:41.519 these large language models again are great at generating realistic text. Right. 822 00:46:41.559 --> 00:46:44.360 We can say it's really come a long way, and 823 00:46:44.599 --> 00:46:47.679 it's very conversational. And when you said you've turned on 824 00:46:47.800 --> 00:46:50.440 like the voice aspect and like talk to it, that 825 00:46:50.599 --> 00:46:54.039 is like something I will not do. It's too weird 826 00:46:54.119 --> 00:46:56.599 and spooky. Yeah, and I'm like, okay, I will just 827 00:46:57.360 --> 00:47:01.320 text and say thank you and be polite, but not 828 00:47:01.519 --> 00:47:05.360 you know, create this relationship if you will. So this 829 00:47:05.480 --> 00:47:09.320 makes them not only very useful, but incredibly persuasive, and 830 00:47:09.519 --> 00:47:13.679 researchers have found that in trying to sound helpful and engaging, 831 00:47:13.960 --> 00:47:19.199 chatbots are becoming overly agreeable, again basically telling people what 832 00:47:19.280 --> 00:47:21.440 they want to hear. So that's the way it's leaning. 833 00:47:22.360 --> 00:47:27.840 So picture someone who's feeling lonely or overwhelmed by big 834 00:47:28.159 --> 00:47:32.599 existential fears. Anyone, anyone. Yeah, they turn to a chatbot 835 00:47:32.679 --> 00:47:34.800 and it does what it's designed to do, right. It listens, 836 00:47:34.880 --> 00:47:38.920 it responds, it agrees. Maybe it tells them that they're 837 00:47:38.920 --> 00:47:42.559 a genius. Maybe it entertains some of these conspiracy theories 838 00:47:42.559 --> 00:47:46.320 that they're asking about, or even ends up encouraging fantasies 839 00:47:46.440 --> 00:47:51.159 about a higher purpose or a digital romance. Right, like 840 00:47:51.239 --> 00:47:55.159 these sort of feigned emotional intimacy that starts happening, it 841 00:47:55.320 --> 00:47:58.320 starts to end up feeling like a real connection, like 842 00:47:58.360 --> 00:48:02.280 real intimacy, but there's no built in guardrail and there's 843 00:48:02.320 --> 00:48:06.679 no therapeutic boundary. It's just like this constant loop of 844 00:48:06.719 --> 00:48:12.800 affirmation that keeps fading itself. So this podcast episode that 845 00:48:12.840 --> 00:48:15.920 we're talking about that we highly recommend comes from The Daily. 846 00:48:16.079 --> 00:48:18.679 It's an episode that was published pretty recently. It's called 847 00:48:18.719 --> 00:48:22.159 Trapped in a Chat GPT Spiral and it was published 848 00:48:22.199 --> 00:48:26.840 on September sixteenth, twenty twenty five. Fantastic episode. Again, we'll 849 00:48:26.880 --> 00:48:29.079 link it in the show notes. There's also a couple 850 00:48:29.159 --> 00:48:32.719 of written article versions that we used. I forget who 851 00:48:32.719 --> 00:48:35.960 it was, but whoever coined the phrase that The Daily 852 00:48:36.119 --> 00:48:39.480 is a scarier podcast than any true crime podcast out 853 00:48:39.519 --> 00:48:43.280 there spot On. I listened to it pretty often and 854 00:48:43.360 --> 00:48:44.239 it's it's. 855 00:48:44.159 --> 00:48:48.239 Very really good. It's good storytelling, but it's also good 856 00:48:48.880 --> 00:48:50.920 ethical journalism. 857 00:48:51.360 --> 00:48:56.840 It is, and I found this piece so authentic in 858 00:48:56.840 --> 00:48:59.239 a sense that it gave us real people's stories, but 859 00:49:00.320 --> 00:49:03.440 also the journalist who is reporting on this how it's 860 00:49:03.480 --> 00:49:08.320 impacting her to hear people's stories, and that was just 861 00:49:08.360 --> 00:49:11.159 a really nice little piece that she didn't make it 862 00:49:11.159 --> 00:49:15.559 about her, certainly, but to just realize what we're exposing 863 00:49:15.559 --> 00:49:19.039 ourselves to even in our work. So full credit here 864 00:49:19.079 --> 00:49:22.079 goes to the journalist interviewed on this episode, Kashmir Hill. 865 00:49:22.800 --> 00:49:25.360 She has been diving into all things AI for a 866 00:49:25.480 --> 00:49:28.199 very long time. It has been one of those journalists 867 00:49:28.239 --> 00:49:32.159 who people are communicating with, people who are experiencing falling 868 00:49:32.199 --> 00:49:34.599 down these rabbit holes, as well as their families reaching 869 00:49:34.639 --> 00:49:37.880 out and saying, hey, here's what happened to us or 870 00:49:37.880 --> 00:49:40.960 here's what happened to me. So after talking to experts, 871 00:49:41.280 --> 00:49:44.000 she stated, quote, it's been designed to be friendly to you, 872 00:49:44.119 --> 00:49:46.800 to be flattering to you, because that's going to probably 873 00:49:46.840 --> 00:49:48.920 make you want to use it more, and so it's 874 00:49:48.960 --> 00:49:51.079 not giving you the most objective answer to what you're 875 00:49:51.119 --> 00:49:54.760 saying to it. It's giving you word association answer that 876 00:49:54.800 --> 00:49:56.719 you're most likely to want to hear. 877 00:49:56.960 --> 00:50:00.320 She goes on to Highlightsman's sights from Helen Tone, who's 878 00:50:00.320 --> 00:50:03.840 an expert on chatbots and a former open ai board member, 879 00:50:04.199 --> 00:50:07.920 and Helen says that essentially, the technology, like we've said's 880 00:50:08.039 --> 00:50:10.760 word associating. It's predicting in reaction to what you put 881 00:50:10.760 --> 00:50:12.840 into it. So every time you put in a new prompt, 882 00:50:13.039 --> 00:50:16.679 it's putting that into the context of the conversation and 883 00:50:16.760 --> 00:50:19.679 holding on to it for what it thinks. And we 884 00:50:19.760 --> 00:50:23.559 use that term loosely, things might come up for the 885 00:50:23.599 --> 00:50:26.880 next exchange. So if you start communicating bizarre things to 886 00:50:26.920 --> 00:50:30.280 the bot, it's gonna meet your crazy head on right. 887 00:50:30.880 --> 00:50:34.119 Earlier this year, open ai released a new feature called 888 00:50:34.320 --> 00:50:37.639 cross chat memory that pulls in all of your previous 889 00:50:37.719 --> 00:50:42.599 context even if you have created a so called fresh chat. 890 00:50:43.239 --> 00:50:46.360 And it seems that since the integration of this new feature, 891 00:50:46.840 --> 00:50:50.360 there's been an uptick in the reports of delusional chats. 892 00:50:50.599 --> 00:50:53.760 So just to kind of drill it down, that's problematic 893 00:50:53.840 --> 00:50:57.440 because you think that you're creating a new chat specifically 894 00:50:57.559 --> 00:51:00.400 for that project, and that project might be I'm going 895 00:51:00.440 --> 00:51:04.320 to create a recipe for my fan fiction of Harry 896 00:51:04.320 --> 00:51:08.039 Potter for a potion. And then over here you're doing 897 00:51:08.360 --> 00:51:12.920 legitimate research on refractive memory or something like this, and 898 00:51:12.960 --> 00:51:15.320 those things should be kept separate, but it's not. It's 899 00:51:15.320 --> 00:51:19.960 putting them in a big weirdo digital cauldron, and that's 900 00:51:20.000 --> 00:51:22.440 going to skew data. It's going to be very interesting 901 00:51:22.440 --> 00:51:24.280 to see if all this goes kind of the way 902 00:51:24.280 --> 00:51:26.400 of Google AdWords, which used to be the way that 903 00:51:26.480 --> 00:51:30.360 you advertise things online and you just knew what keywords define, 904 00:51:30.719 --> 00:51:33.400 and now that all has been polluted because there are 905 00:51:33.480 --> 00:51:35.639 so many hundreds of millions of people that jumped on 906 00:51:35.719 --> 00:51:38.280 trying to do it. So, as doctor Shiloh and I've 907 00:51:38.320 --> 00:51:42.599 been trained in research, garbage in equals garbage out, sure, 908 00:51:42.639 --> 00:51:47.880 but in this case, lack of organization is going to 909 00:51:48.000 --> 00:51:51.400 lead to garbage out. Cross Chat memory is turned on 910 00:51:51.559 --> 00:51:54.800 by default, but you can disable memory or turn off 911 00:51:54.800 --> 00:51:57.239 the chat history and settings. You know, I'm going to 912 00:51:57.320 --> 00:51:59.320 leave it to the users. I trust everybody to be 913 00:52:00.000 --> 00:52:03.559 sponsible users of technology or adults, but just be aware 914 00:52:03.920 --> 00:52:06.599 and share that information for people who are less aware, 915 00:52:06.840 --> 00:52:10.519 gently don't get them bar like, just hey, you might 916 00:52:10.559 --> 00:52:12.360 want to know that this is a thing that happens. 917 00:52:12.559 --> 00:52:14.320 Give me your device so I can turn this setting 918 00:52:14.360 --> 00:52:17.039 off for you. If that even means anything, I don't know. 919 00:52:17.079 --> 00:52:19.519 I kind of like, okay, whatever, I don't know. If 920 00:52:19.559 --> 00:52:22.239 I trust it the I'll use it. But we're also 921 00:52:22.320 --> 00:52:24.280 just not talking about words here, right. These are people's 922 00:52:24.320 --> 00:52:28.559 thoughts and feelings, and if you feed it irrational thoughts, 923 00:52:28.719 --> 00:52:31.039 it's going to match your energy with its output back 924 00:52:31.079 --> 00:52:32.039 to you exactly. 925 00:52:32.079 --> 00:52:35.159 Then that's what we come full circle to a previous episode. 926 00:52:35.199 --> 00:52:37.880 What we mentioned earlier today a form of fully a 927 00:52:38.079 --> 00:52:40.480 do and just as a recap, fullya do, which is 928 00:52:40.519 --> 00:52:43.760 French for madness of two is a rare, thankfully rare 929 00:52:43.800 --> 00:52:48.119 psychiatric syndrome where two or more people share the same 930 00:52:48.159 --> 00:52:52.000 false beliefs or delusions. Usually one person develops the delusion 931 00:52:52.039 --> 00:52:56.119 first and the other person or people adopt it through 932 00:52:56.159 --> 00:52:59.960 their close relationship. There and certainly that on an ex 933 00:53:00.000 --> 00:53:03.880 spinitial term becomes what we call mass psychosis. Remember them 934 00:53:03.920 --> 00:53:06.559 from our episodes episode twenty eight, fully a do and 935 00:53:06.559 --> 00:53:11.280 then episode one eighty five, fully a do redo revisit it? 936 00:53:12.840 --> 00:53:14.280 Yeah? I mean what do we think do we think 937 00:53:14.320 --> 00:53:17.880 that like fits here? Can you have fullia do with 938 00:53:18.320 --> 00:53:22.639 a digital entity? Interesting? And I think they you know, 939 00:53:22.679 --> 00:53:26.119 when we are seeing that when people their delusion is 940 00:53:26.199 --> 00:53:30.679 recognized and then they essentially get them away from the 941 00:53:30.920 --> 00:53:34.199 chat bot, that it starts to extinguish like we see 942 00:53:34.519 --> 00:53:37.559 with a human and a human right with the primary 943 00:53:37.559 --> 00:53:39.599 person with the delusion and the secondary person. 944 00:53:40.440 --> 00:53:42.960 But then you're assigning that means we would be assigning 945 00:53:43.000 --> 00:53:48.840 personhood to the language model, which in our unbelievably fucked 946 00:53:48.920 --> 00:53:52.119 up capitalist system that we have here in Western world, 947 00:53:52.239 --> 00:53:56.360 the idea of corporations are people like that is a 948 00:53:56.400 --> 00:54:00.599 thing that is set law in our government that is 949 00:54:00.679 --> 00:54:04.559 freaky and has huge impacts on our economy and personal 950 00:54:04.599 --> 00:54:06.840 freedoms that a lot of people aren't aware of. But 951 00:54:07.079 --> 00:54:10.119 in this term, do we think about the computer as 952 00:54:10.400 --> 00:54:13.719 being the progenitor for the delusion or is it just somebody? 953 00:54:14.199 --> 00:54:18.920 Or are you the primary and chat GPT has become 954 00:54:19.079 --> 00:54:23.400 your secondary because it's just echoing back right everything to you. 955 00:54:23.880 --> 00:54:26.119 But then what about if you take those beliefs and 956 00:54:26.159 --> 00:54:29.719 you're able to bring other people in again, you are 957 00:54:29.760 --> 00:54:31.320 the progenitor for that. 958 00:54:31.599 --> 00:54:34.239 Yeah, definitely. I mean it's so interesting to think about 959 00:54:34.280 --> 00:54:36.679 and like, clinically, if this were to be presented in 960 00:54:36.719 --> 00:54:38.840 front of us, where would you start? How? You know, 961 00:54:38.880 --> 00:54:42.119 it's again it's interesting, and you and I have done 962 00:54:42.119 --> 00:54:44.320 some stretches as far as like, hey, what kind of 963 00:54:44.320 --> 00:54:46.599 feels like this? And was Ted Kaczynski and in cell? 964 00:54:46.719 --> 00:54:49.679 And you know, it's fun to talk about and think about. 965 00:54:50.280 --> 00:54:54.480 When you really start dissecting things, I think it falls apart. 966 00:54:55.199 --> 00:55:00.119 But man, some of these stories have really felt like, wow, well, 967 00:55:00.239 --> 00:55:04.159 there's such this intermingling of these two people in one 968 00:55:04.199 --> 00:55:06.239 of those people, you know, being digital in the sense 969 00:55:06.320 --> 00:55:08.599 really feeding off of each other at the very least. 970 00:55:08.800 --> 00:55:12.199 Well, you bring up sort of an interesting point of conversation. 971 00:55:12.440 --> 00:55:14.639 I think I may have spoken about this on an 972 00:55:14.679 --> 00:55:16.880 episode in the past, But when I first started my 973 00:55:17.000 --> 00:55:21.199 clinical training at a really great family center here in 974 00:55:21.400 --> 00:55:25.000 Los Angeles, one of the clients that came to me, 975 00:55:25.519 --> 00:55:29.320 actually it was a couple, and the young woman in 976 00:55:29.519 --> 00:55:36.039 the couple was an abductee. She believed that she, on 977 00:55:36.079 --> 00:55:41.559 a regular basis since childhood, had been abducted by aliens 978 00:55:41.639 --> 00:55:45.519 or entities and they had implanted and this is somebody successful, 979 00:55:45.840 --> 00:55:50.199 you know, well educated, very smart, and I was like 980 00:55:50.239 --> 00:55:51.719 a new training. I didn't know what the hell to 981 00:55:51.760 --> 00:55:53.719 do with that. I was like, wow, need to get 982 00:55:53.719 --> 00:55:55.840 some supervision on it. And I got really, I really 983 00:55:55.880 --> 00:56:00.599 got great supervision on that particular case, because they said, again, 984 00:56:00.800 --> 00:56:03.599 you meet the clients where they are, and when you 985 00:56:03.679 --> 00:56:07.760 have something like this that sort of feels bizarre, you 986 00:56:07.960 --> 00:56:10.400 have to be careful not to join in the belief. 987 00:56:10.559 --> 00:56:12.719 And look, I don't know, maybe there I just can't. 988 00:56:12.800 --> 00:56:16.280 It doesn't fit Okham's razor to me that aliens with 989 00:56:16.320 --> 00:56:20.559 advanced technology need to keep abducting us, Like, yeah, you would. 990 00:56:21.000 --> 00:56:22.800 How do you not know everything there is to know 991 00:56:22.800 --> 00:56:25.639 about human anatomy or whatever you need? Right? But that's 992 00:56:25.679 --> 00:56:30.079 sort of applying that perspective to it. But she's in 993 00:56:30.119 --> 00:56:33.360 distress and it's affecting her relationship. So let's meet where 994 00:56:33.360 --> 00:56:35.400 we are, like, where are your coping skills for this? 995 00:56:35.599 --> 00:56:38.000 About for you know, how do you deal with this 996 00:56:38.079 --> 00:56:40.320 lifelong challenge and what can we do to help you? 997 00:56:40.400 --> 00:56:43.000 And you know, how can your partner help you? But 998 00:56:43.840 --> 00:56:47.320 that to me is another version of that we have 999 00:56:47.360 --> 00:56:50.960 to have understanding. You can't just tell somebody, well, that's 1000 00:56:51.039 --> 00:56:54.199 not true, and especially after they've spent hundreds of hours 1001 00:56:54.199 --> 00:56:58.000 talking to their AI companion and they're completely convinced. 1002 00:56:59.000 --> 00:57:02.880 Now, there's a lot of interesting clinical considerations, and I 1003 00:57:02.880 --> 00:57:04.840 think we'll kind of touch on a little bit of 1004 00:57:04.840 --> 00:57:07.880 that just when we kind of button this up. But 1005 00:57:08.920 --> 00:57:12.199 as far as what researchers are now starting to see 1006 00:57:12.559 --> 00:57:18.239 in terms of like emerging themes of AI psychosis, it's definitely, 1007 00:57:18.320 --> 00:57:20.119 you know, something that's already coming out in research and 1008 00:57:20.119 --> 00:57:24.199 published papers. So let's go through those. First. Is grandiose 1009 00:57:24.239 --> 00:57:28.880 delusions or messianic missions. So people kind of believe that 1010 00:57:28.920 --> 00:57:31.920 they have uncovered the truth about something or about the world, 1011 00:57:32.039 --> 00:57:35.159 and that AI says I'm the chosen one to spread 1012 00:57:35.159 --> 00:57:40.000 this truth. Really interesting in terms of taking the potential 1013 00:57:40.079 --> 00:57:42.320 and I know you and I like our spidy senses 1014 00:57:42.400 --> 00:57:44.119 kind of go up of like, okay, there's having a 1015 00:57:44.119 --> 00:57:46.159 conversation with the chat box, but then what are they 1016 00:57:46.199 --> 00:57:49.320 going to go out into the world and do with this? Right? Also, 1017 00:57:49.360 --> 00:57:52.840 what they're saying are religious and spiritual delusions. People believe 1018 00:57:53.079 --> 00:57:58.920 that their AI chat bot is the sentient deity. So 1019 00:57:59.360 --> 00:58:03.000 that is it's also interesting to think about we're seeing 1020 00:58:03.000 --> 00:58:08.760 those erato manic delusions, those romantic or attachment based delusions. 1021 00:58:08.800 --> 00:58:13.079 So people believe that the chatbot's ability to mimic conversation 1022 00:58:13.239 --> 00:58:17.360 and intimacy is genuine love. Paranoia, just straight up paranoia. Right. 1023 00:58:17.480 --> 00:58:19.519 It warned me that other people are spying on me, 1024 00:58:20.159 --> 00:58:22.360 and in some of those themes that we've seen a 1025 00:58:22.440 --> 00:58:26.719 lot before, we also have dissociation, so it basically like 1026 00:58:26.760 --> 00:58:29.960 it understands me better than any human. They're kind of 1027 00:58:30.039 --> 00:58:36.039 lumping this differently from the romantic interest specifically to talk 1028 00:58:36.079 --> 00:58:38.719 about the communication. And then I think some of those 1029 00:58:38.960 --> 00:58:41.800 behaviors that we were talking about before in psychosis, where 1030 00:58:41.800 --> 00:58:45.960 people start to isolate and stop spending time doing things 1031 00:58:46.000 --> 00:58:47.760 that they like to do before and hang out with 1032 00:58:47.840 --> 00:58:50.719 people like real people in real life that they have 1033 00:58:50.880 --> 00:58:55.760 enjoyed being with before, they're really just losing themselves in 1034 00:58:55.800 --> 00:58:59.679 these conversations with the chatbots. And then not necessarily a theme, 1035 00:58:59.719 --> 00:59:02.920 I guess, but maybe kind of a typology of behavior 1036 00:59:03.039 --> 00:59:05.880 is just the impulsive engagement where people are saying I 1037 00:59:06.000 --> 00:59:09.039 cannot stop talking to it, and I will not right, 1038 00:59:09.119 --> 00:59:11.280 And there have been cases where some of these kind 1039 00:59:11.280 --> 00:59:15.079 of overlap where one spouse has started engaging in this 1040 00:59:15.840 --> 00:59:19.159 intimate emotional affair with their chat box and has said like, 1041 00:59:19.199 --> 00:59:21.639 I'm not leaving them. I don't want to leave you. You 1042 00:59:21.559 --> 00:59:25.639 accept me for having this chat bought girlfriend, and that's 1043 00:59:25.639 --> 00:59:27.519 the way it's going to be. I cannot stop talking 1044 00:59:27.519 --> 00:59:29.480 to her. I'm not going to give her up. So 1045 00:59:29.599 --> 00:59:32.559 those are happening, But really these are themes that we 1046 00:59:32.599 --> 00:59:35.960 are already familiar with in other modes of psychosis. We're 1047 00:59:35.960 --> 00:59:39.599 not reinventing the wheel here. However, we should know that 1048 00:59:39.599 --> 00:59:43.960 there's currently no peer reviewed clinical or longitudinal evidence, of 1049 00:59:43.960 --> 00:59:48.880 course yet that AI on its own is inducing psychosis 1050 00:59:48.880 --> 00:59:52.639 and individuals. So we're kind of hypothesizing that or hearing 1051 00:59:52.639 --> 00:59:56.000 anecdotal stories about that, but there is no solid research 1052 00:59:56.039 --> 00:59:59.440 about that yet. So there have been two pretty clear 1053 00:59:59.480 --> 01:00:02.920 situations happening with AI psychosis. Having said what I just said, 1054 01:00:03.400 --> 01:00:06.960 there's cases where people who had a psychiatric diagnosis were 1055 01:00:07.039 --> 01:00:11.440 doing well on their medications decided to stop them, only 1056 01:00:11.480 --> 01:00:14.760 to relapse back into a psychotic or manic episode. 1057 01:00:14.840 --> 01:00:18.320 And that is an ongoing challenge even without the influence 1058 01:00:18.320 --> 01:00:21.559 of AI like it is, yes, because people who are 1059 01:00:21.559 --> 01:00:24.960 on antipsychotics. People are on medications that are needed for 1060 01:00:25.039 --> 01:00:28.239 mood stability, but the side effects and then also the 1061 01:00:28.280 --> 01:00:31.280 cultural shame, like I don't want to be identified with 1062 01:00:31.360 --> 01:00:34.559 this diagnosis and I want to be somebody who doesn't 1063 01:00:34.599 --> 01:00:37.639 need to take medications. And that is a really strong drive, 1064 01:00:38.000 --> 01:00:40.159 you know, It's really integral to the work that I 1065 01:00:40.199 --> 01:00:43.639 do now in my day job with people that know 1066 01:00:43.800 --> 01:00:45.480 I'm sick of taking it. I don't want to take 1067 01:00:45.519 --> 01:00:48.360 the medication anymore. I'll deal with the symptoms, even though 1068 01:00:48.880 --> 01:00:52.679 we know what happens. YEA. Then there's like the hospitalization 1069 01:00:52.920 --> 01:00:55.239 over and over again, trying to get them back on track. 1070 01:00:55.760 --> 01:00:59.360 Yeah, what a horrible struggle. Yeah, And there are these 1071 01:00:59.400 --> 01:01:03.679 other situations where individuals with seemingly no history of mental 1072 01:01:03.679 --> 01:01:09.559 illness have developed these delusions, these false beliefs after spending 1073 01:01:09.800 --> 01:01:13.519 what's documented long periods of time with these AI chatbots, 1074 01:01:14.039 --> 01:01:18.639 sometimes even severe enough to require hospitalization or resulting in 1075 01:01:18.840 --> 01:01:23.000 suicide attempts. So those do exist. Again, we just want 1076 01:01:23.000 --> 01:01:24.679 to kind of put a pin in the fact that 1077 01:01:24.920 --> 01:01:27.679 the research will come. It's coming, but it's just not 1078 01:01:27.760 --> 01:01:31.480 there yet. Mental health experts who have studied transcripts of 1079 01:01:31.519 --> 01:01:36.719 these extended conversations are really urging companies to step in sooner, 1080 01:01:37.239 --> 01:01:39.559 and some of the things that they're saying is like 1081 01:01:40.039 --> 01:01:42.719 there needs to be some sort of pause on overly 1082 01:01:42.760 --> 01:01:47.960 long chats, maybe some sort of reminders to rest, and 1083 01:01:48.239 --> 01:01:50.760 really to make it clear to users that these systems 1084 01:01:50.800 --> 01:01:54.840 aren't these all knowing beings. Open Ai, for its part, 1085 01:01:54.960 --> 01:01:58.599 has said that it's now adding gentle prompts during these 1086 01:01:58.719 --> 01:02:03.199 sort of marathon sessions to encourage healthier use. So it's 1087 01:02:03.199 --> 01:02:05.599 starting to encourage people to take breaks or get some 1088 01:02:05.679 --> 01:02:09.079 sleep if they're just going at it all night in 1089 01:02:09.119 --> 01:02:10.079 these conversations. 1090 01:02:10.280 --> 01:02:13.480 Well, that's interesting because it is a learning model, it's 1091 01:02:13.519 --> 01:02:17.000 a language model, and the idea of I mean even Netflix, 1092 01:02:17.400 --> 01:02:20.199 you know, if you're marathoning a series, Netflix will go 1093 01:02:20.519 --> 01:02:23.480 are you still watching? You've been watching That'll Star Galactic 1094 01:02:23.719 --> 01:02:26.119 for six weeks? Do you think you should maybe get 1095 01:02:26.119 --> 01:02:28.000 some exercise? I mean, that's what I think. 1096 01:02:28.239 --> 01:02:30.760 I see it as like I'm inconveniencing Netflix. They're like, 1097 01:02:30.920 --> 01:02:33.599 we could be utilizing our energy on someone else. Are 1098 01:02:33.599 --> 01:02:34.960 you still there right? 1099 01:02:35.159 --> 01:02:37.960 Right? And and well even Pandora will do the same thing. 1100 01:02:38.039 --> 01:02:41.800 Still listening or Google, you know, watching something on YouTube. 1101 01:02:41.840 --> 01:02:44.199 If I'm listening to music for hours on end, it'll like, 1102 01:02:44.239 --> 01:02:47.400 are you still listening? So I get that. The idea 1103 01:02:47.639 --> 01:02:51.320 is that these systems can be modified that easily, and 1104 01:02:51.360 --> 01:02:54.920 it's good that open AI will do that. I don't know, 1105 01:02:54.960 --> 01:02:57.679 but that doesn't mean that other systems that are out 1106 01:02:57.679 --> 01:03:00.760 there will follow. I would not be surprised if at 1107 01:03:00.760 --> 01:03:03.679 some point there is legislation about this. I really think 1108 01:03:03.719 --> 01:03:06.039 that that's going to be coming soon. 1109 01:03:06.119 --> 01:03:09.440 Especially it's not going to be coming soon because a 1110 01:03:09.519 --> 01:03:13.679 little piece in the big beautiful bill that past said 1111 01:03:13.719 --> 01:03:16.159 that there will be no legislation or laws on AI 1112 01:03:16.199 --> 01:03:18.239 for the next ten years. So that's snuck in there. 1113 01:03:18.480 --> 01:03:21.840 Just oh, just so everybody's. 1114 01:03:21.559 --> 01:03:24.880 Wow, Okay, you know what. I thanks for a new 1115 01:03:24.960 --> 01:03:27.000 level of horror. I was not aware of that. 1116 01:03:27.159 --> 01:03:29.679 You're welcome. I will give you like a little bit 1117 01:03:29.679 --> 01:03:32.639 of the background thinking was because if there is and 1118 01:03:32.719 --> 01:03:35.159 if there are too many restrictions put in place too fast, 1119 01:03:35.679 --> 01:03:38.000 how could we possibly compete with other countries that are 1120 01:03:38.000 --> 01:03:40.360 not going to have those restrictions at all. I don't 1121 01:03:40.400 --> 01:03:43.320 know if that lessons your horror at all, but. 1122 01:03:43.559 --> 01:03:46.480 Yeah, I mean it does, But it doesn't mean that 1123 01:03:46.679 --> 01:03:49.239 there are other things that can't be done to help. 1124 01:03:49.280 --> 01:03:52.559 So I'm going to be slightly optimistic, but still to 1125 01:03:52.679 --> 01:03:56.000 acknowledge that this is so new and moving so fast 1126 01:03:56.320 --> 01:04:00.320 that we have to admit. I mean, as clinicians, as 1127 01:04:00.360 --> 01:04:04.159 people who respect legitimate research, we can tell that the 1128 01:04:04.280 --> 01:04:06.760 end is not in sight about what this all means. 1129 01:04:06.800 --> 01:04:10.760 And the APA, the American Psychological Association, has put together 1130 01:04:10.840 --> 01:04:14.400 a panel to study chat about use in therapy and 1131 01:04:14.679 --> 01:04:17.480 the plan is to release guidance on how to reduce 1132 01:04:17.519 --> 01:04:21.119 potential harms. APA does some really great stuff. I wish 1133 01:04:21.119 --> 01:04:23.719 they were faster and more consistent, but that's my bias 1134 01:04:23.760 --> 01:04:27.440 against them. But it does pose questions about how we 1135 01:04:27.480 --> 01:04:30.039 as clinicians are going to have to struggle to keep 1136 01:04:30.119 --> 01:04:34.920 up and treating this new permutation of delusional thinking and patients. 1137 01:04:35.280 --> 01:04:37.960 How do you assess this during an intake? How do 1138 01:04:38.000 --> 01:04:42.840 you navigate AI formed delusional thinking? And like we said, 1139 01:04:42.840 --> 01:04:45.079 there are concerning cases that are popping up everywhere. A 1140 01:04:45.079 --> 01:04:49.280 psychiatrist at University of California, San Francisco reports that he 1141 01:04:49.360 --> 01:04:53.639 has hospitalized almost a dozen people this year just this 1142 01:04:53.760 --> 01:04:56.639 year for psychosis linked to heavy chatbot use, and they 1143 01:04:56.760 --> 01:04:59.960 brought in transcripts to their conversations, and then on social media, 1144 01:05:00.679 --> 01:05:03.960 we are seeing more and more users describing intense, emotional 1145 01:05:04.000 --> 01:05:06.679 or philosophical relationships with AA. Like you said in those 1146 01:05:06.719 --> 01:05:09.880 warning bullet points earlier, it's not just romantic. It can 1147 01:05:09.920 --> 01:05:14.559 be like, here's someone who understands what I'm trying to understand, 1148 01:05:14.679 --> 01:05:18.159 or understands what I've always believed, and it's not it's 1149 01:05:18.199 --> 01:05:21.760 your falling into a spiral of a language model. And 1150 01:05:21.800 --> 01:05:24.880 then ergo, if it understands me this, well, it has 1151 01:05:24.920 --> 01:05:27.960 to be conscious, right, or it's going to reveal these 1152 01:05:28.079 --> 01:05:30.920 hidden truths about the universe. So it may not directly 1153 01:05:30.960 --> 01:05:34.400 cause mental illness like we've said, but it feels like 1154 01:05:34.800 --> 01:05:39.960 it is an accelerant, like it's pouring gasoline on a 1155 01:05:40.000 --> 01:05:43.880 smoldering fire for existing struggles. Right, so we can talk 1156 01:05:43.920 --> 01:05:46.159 about a lot of these people don't have any history 1157 01:05:46.199 --> 01:05:49.920 of diagnoses. Well, that doesn't mean that the underlying diagnoses 1158 01:05:49.920 --> 01:05:52.480 are not there. Maybe someone you know, I did not 1159 01:05:52.559 --> 01:05:55.400 know I had ADHD until I was in my forties, 1160 01:05:55.679 --> 01:05:57.360 you know, like I did not know I had this 1161 01:05:57.519 --> 01:06:03.519 underlying neuroatypicality that affected every area of my life. So 1162 01:06:04.079 --> 01:06:06.159 you know, the more we understand. I think, the more 1163 01:06:06.199 --> 01:06:10.559 we can prepare, but it's dangerous when a patient or 1164 01:06:10.599 --> 01:06:13.719 a client is in a pattern of harmful thoughts that 1165 01:06:13.760 --> 01:06:18.719 then creates a feedback loop and AI acts as this accelerant, 1166 01:06:18.880 --> 01:06:21.000 you know, the gasoline port on the fire. As one 1167 01:06:21.000 --> 01:06:24.079 psychotherapist in this article I was reading said, A might 1168 01:06:24.159 --> 01:06:27.840 be less the cause and more like the snowflake that 1169 01:06:28.000 --> 01:06:32.159 destabilizes the avalanche. So yeah, that's a good metaphor. 1170 01:06:32.320 --> 01:06:36.320 As a side note, open ai recently conducted a study 1171 01:06:36.360 --> 01:06:40.840 with the help of MIT that found among even heavy 1172 01:06:40.920 --> 01:06:46.079 users of their chatbot, only a very small percentage of 1173 01:06:46.079 --> 01:06:50.960 conversations were for kind of emotional use or affective use. 1174 01:06:51.760 --> 01:06:55.800 I'm always suspicious of companies with an obvious interest in 1175 01:06:55.840 --> 01:06:58.360 the study, kind of participating in the study or funding 1176 01:06:58.360 --> 01:07:00.800 the study. But you know, so I think this could 1177 01:07:01.159 --> 01:07:05.559 still be helpful information. But even if it is small percentages, 1178 01:07:05.920 --> 01:07:08.480 that's still a lot of people, with as many people 1179 01:07:08.559 --> 01:07:11.519 that we know are using it. And you know, again, 1180 01:07:11.679 --> 01:07:13.360 for us, it comes back like, what does that mean? 1181 01:07:13.400 --> 01:07:17.159 Clinically yeah, and here we are what can be done? So, 1182 01:07:17.519 --> 01:07:21.719 according to the Cognitive Behavior Institute, here are some concrete 1183 01:07:21.840 --> 01:07:24.920 clinically informed steps that individuals and professionals can take, and 1184 01:07:25.000 --> 01:07:30.840 number one is just work towards a normalization of digital disclosure. 1185 01:07:31.239 --> 01:07:32.719 You know, in the same way a doctor would say, 1186 01:07:32.760 --> 01:07:34.760 I need to know if you're sexually active because that 1187 01:07:35.079 --> 01:07:37.679 has implications for all parts of your health. Right, we 1188 01:07:37.760 --> 01:07:41.360 need to ask clients do you use any AI chatbots regularly? 1189 01:07:41.480 --> 01:07:44.199 And then just make it a standard part of intake 1190 01:07:44.320 --> 01:07:48.360 and of therapy, and then promote psycho education. And that 1191 01:07:48.480 --> 01:07:51.599 means in order to promote the psycho education, we need 1192 01:07:51.639 --> 01:07:55.000 to get all therapists who maybe are not up on 1193 01:07:55.079 --> 01:07:58.039 this at all to even know that it's an issue 1194 01:07:58.199 --> 01:08:01.400 in society. And if someone, if they're client, mentions it casually, 1195 01:08:01.599 --> 01:08:05.280 do you really understand what that has the potential to mean. 1196 01:08:05.639 --> 01:08:08.119 So you have to educate yourself as a clinician and 1197 01:08:08.159 --> 01:08:11.559 then try and help clients understand that they're not conscious, 1198 01:08:11.719 --> 01:08:13.960 not the clients that the AI model is not conscious. 1199 01:08:14.000 --> 01:08:18.800 It's not it's not necessarily therapeutic, and it is definitely 1200 01:08:18.840 --> 01:08:21.600 not qualified to advise. I mean, believe me, I know 1201 01:08:21.600 --> 01:08:23.760 a lot of therapists that aren't qualified to advise. But 1202 01:08:23.800 --> 01:08:28.319 that's another story. They are probability machines they're really smart 1203 01:08:28.399 --> 01:08:32.399 quote unquote smart machines, but they're still machines. And then 1204 01:08:32.520 --> 01:08:36.640 their third point is recommended boundaries. You really in the 1205 01:08:36.680 --> 01:08:41.279 same way that we would approach someone with an addiction 1206 01:08:41.760 --> 01:08:47.079 or a substance use challenge, the reduced harm approach is like, 1207 01:08:47.159 --> 01:08:49.800 I'm not telling you to go cold turkey off this 1208 01:08:49.880 --> 01:08:52.159 medication that if you stop taking it you're going to 1209 01:08:52.199 --> 01:08:54.960 have a seizure. But let's see if we can find 1210 01:08:55.000 --> 01:08:58.399 a system of checks and balances in your use of 1211 01:08:58.439 --> 01:09:02.760 this medication, of this recreational substance, of this video game, 1212 01:09:03.159 --> 01:09:07.600 of this AI, especially at night when you're alone or 1213 01:09:07.680 --> 01:09:10.880 during a mood dip, or if you're doing it all 1214 01:09:10.960 --> 01:09:13.119 these things or any of these things in place of 1215 01:09:13.199 --> 01:09:18.439 real human support. So socialization, I mean, there's a really 1216 01:09:18.439 --> 01:09:21.399 famous quote via a well known therapist, and I'm blanking 1217 01:09:21.399 --> 01:09:23.600 on his name, but the idea that the opposite of 1218 01:09:23.960 --> 01:09:28.279 addiction is socialization, which I think is really apt. You 1219 01:09:28.279 --> 01:09:31.840 have to identify risk markers. Sudden withdrawal, belief in AI 1220 01:09:31.920 --> 01:09:34.880 sentience and I mean social withdrawal when I say that, 1221 01:09:35.199 --> 01:09:38.359 and then refusal to engage with real people are red flags. 1222 01:09:38.359 --> 01:09:42.560 We see this like a lot in the gang stalking victims, 1223 01:09:42.960 --> 01:09:44.880 you know, not so much an AI, but I think 1224 01:09:44.880 --> 01:09:47.640 that that's going to be another frightening area of research 1225 01:09:47.760 --> 01:09:50.920 of seeing how AI is going to play into those 1226 01:09:51.000 --> 01:09:54.560 that experience the phenomenon of gang stalking. And we need 1227 01:09:54.640 --> 01:09:57.079 to push for regulation. Even though here it is, as 1228 01:09:57.119 --> 01:10:00.159 you've just educated me, thank you for that frightening education 1229 01:10:00.199 --> 01:10:04.079 on the big beautiful bill, that behavioral health is going 1230 01:10:04.119 --> 01:10:07.439 to have to push for ethical standards, mandatory warning systems, 1231 01:10:07.479 --> 01:10:12.399 at least opt out crisis interventions, and then having limits 1232 01:10:12.439 --> 01:10:16.520 on AI mirroring in emotionally charged conversations. I mean, if 1233 01:10:16.560 --> 01:10:19.840 it was used in a way of thanks for letting 1234 01:10:19.840 --> 01:10:22.359 me know what you're going through, we need to connect 1235 01:10:22.399 --> 01:10:24.399 you with a clinician, or we need to connect you 1236 01:10:24.479 --> 01:10:28.279 with a community healthcare worker that can help sort through 1237 01:10:28.279 --> 01:10:29.319 what the next steps are. 1238 01:10:29.920 --> 01:10:32.560 Yeah, and again just in reference to open AI, they've 1239 01:10:32.800 --> 01:10:37.720 already announced some new changes aimed at helping their chatbots 1240 01:10:38.319 --> 01:10:41.640 better detect signs of mental illness or emotional distress that 1241 01:10:41.720 --> 01:10:43.840 the person is inputting. So the idea is that if 1242 01:10:43.840 --> 01:10:46.680 someone types something that sounds like they're in crisis, the 1243 01:10:46.720 --> 01:10:51.399 system will respond in a safer, more supportive way and hopefully, 1244 01:10:51.479 --> 01:10:54.680 like you said, getting them connected with resources rather than 1245 01:10:55.319 --> 01:10:59.600 giving some cold generic answer or feigning empathy and then 1246 01:10:59.840 --> 01:11:01.800 not giving any resource. 1247 01:11:02.439 --> 01:11:06.199 Right and even in collating the information for putting together 1248 01:11:06.920 --> 01:11:10.319 our bullet points in our script today, there were so 1249 01:11:10.439 --> 01:11:14.239 many mentions of self harm in my research. It came 1250 01:11:14.319 --> 01:11:17.159 up on Chaz like it kept putting in like, hey, 1251 01:11:17.319 --> 01:11:20.479 here are the numbers if you're struggling. There's twenty four 1252 01:11:20.520 --> 01:11:23.640 hour availability of a person to talk to at this number, 1253 01:11:23.800 --> 01:11:26.319 which I thought was pretty impressive, Like so that's a 1254 01:11:26.359 --> 01:11:29.000 substantial step. But you know, there is a lot of 1255 01:11:29.039 --> 01:11:32.600 divide in the clinical community that is aware of this 1256 01:11:32.680 --> 01:11:35.199 being an issue, and a lot of people say, well, yeah, 1257 01:11:35.199 --> 01:11:37.640 the updates that you're talking about, they're essential because the 1258 01:11:37.680 --> 01:11:40.680 reality is that people are doing this kind of confidential 1259 01:11:40.760 --> 01:11:44.359 and emotional connection with these models for any of the 1260 01:11:44.399 --> 01:11:47.960 reasons could be financial reasons, social isolation, or even like 1261 01:11:48.000 --> 01:11:50.479 a lack of awareness of what's out there, like maybe 1262 01:11:50.479 --> 01:11:53.880 you don't know that there's a pre counseling center that 1263 01:11:53.920 --> 01:11:55.640 you can go to down the street, or that you 1264 01:11:55.680 --> 01:11:58.359 can get this. But if AI can nudge them towards 1265 01:11:58.479 --> 01:12:02.760 what I'm using this term real support like hotlines or 1266 01:12:02.760 --> 01:12:05.159 professional care, it could make more of a difference. Now 1267 01:12:05.159 --> 01:12:07.840 others are more skeptical, and the clinical worry there is 1268 01:12:07.880 --> 01:12:11.680 that by leaning too far into role play or emotional support, 1269 01:12:12.039 --> 01:12:15.119 that AI is going to risk giving people a false 1270 01:12:15.159 --> 01:12:19.319 sense of having access to therapy. And I agree with 1271 01:12:19.359 --> 01:12:21.800 this because it's not therapy. It's not an intelligence. It's 1272 01:12:21.840 --> 01:12:25.520 a language model, and it's not a trained clinician. And 1273 01:12:25.560 --> 01:12:29.159 no matter how carefully it's programmed, at least at this point. 1274 01:12:29.199 --> 01:12:32.479 I mean, robotics are amazing, but even robots that are 1275 01:12:32.479 --> 01:12:36.560 trained to see are not necessarily understanding what they're seeing. 1276 01:12:36.840 --> 01:12:39.640 And you know, I'm a huge fan of John Gottman's 1277 01:12:39.680 --> 01:12:44.239 work and his institute looking at micro expressions. Now, if 1278 01:12:44.279 --> 01:12:46.800 you were to train a computer to be able to 1279 01:12:46.920 --> 01:12:51.279 notice micro expressions and people, that would be something that 1280 01:12:51.319 --> 01:12:54.359 would be interesting in the use of therapy. But we're 1281 01:12:54.359 --> 01:12:56.680 not there yet, and I don't know if we're ever 1282 01:12:56.720 --> 01:12:59.720 going to be there. Where it really understands is the 1283 01:12:59.760 --> 01:13:03.600 person and I'm talking to feeling contempt right now? You know? 1284 01:13:03.880 --> 01:13:06.359 And then if a chatbot asks a person, are you 1285 01:13:06.359 --> 01:13:10.000 feeling contemptuous right now? How honest are they going to 1286 01:13:10.000 --> 01:13:12.880 be because that's what we deal with in clinical work, right, 1287 01:13:13.119 --> 01:13:17.119 is how comfortable someone is with being completely honest. Now, 1288 01:13:17.680 --> 01:13:21.960 maybe someone behind a keyboard talking to a chatbot will 1289 01:13:22.000 --> 01:13:24.760 be more open, but I don't think across the board 1290 01:13:25.000 --> 01:13:27.600 that's going to happen. I think it's just it's going 1291 01:13:27.680 --> 01:13:31.199 to be that avalanche that we're talking about. I'm concerned 1292 01:13:31.239 --> 01:13:34.800 that vulnerable users are going to delay seeking professional help 1293 01:13:35.159 --> 01:13:39.640 if they start leaning too heavily for this digital comfort 1294 01:13:39.720 --> 01:13:40.359 or validation. 1295 01:13:41.079 --> 01:13:44.039 Yeah, and in our examples, we're going to see how 1296 01:13:44.079 --> 01:13:48.880 quickly that that can even go downhill today. So let's 1297 01:13:48.880 --> 01:13:52.279 get into it. Not a crazy serious one to start 1298 01:13:52.319 --> 01:13:55.760 out with. This one hits especially close to home though, 1299 01:13:55.880 --> 01:13:59.119 for the multi generations of the women in my family 1300 01:13:59.119 --> 01:14:02.680 who have been general hospital fans. I'm serious. I'm talking 1301 01:14:03.079 --> 01:14:07.520 like great grandmother, grandmother, mom, mom, this one's for you. 1302 01:14:09.439 --> 01:14:12.800 So there is a woman in South Los Angeles who 1303 01:14:12.840 --> 01:14:16.479 was recently conned out of more than eighty thousand dollars 1304 01:14:17.239 --> 01:14:21.399 in a disturbing scam that weaponized artificial intelligence. In this 1305 01:14:21.520 --> 01:14:24.560 case and the familiar face of a well known and 1306 01:14:24.720 --> 01:14:27.680 beloved TV star. So the target of the deep fake 1307 01:14:27.840 --> 01:14:30.720 scheme was the woman was the target the victim here, 1308 01:14:30.760 --> 01:14:33.079 but the utilization, which I think is like the other 1309 01:14:33.159 --> 01:14:37.119 target is Steve Burton. So he's a very blonde heart 1310 01:14:37.159 --> 01:14:39.560 throb that's been on General Hospital since I watched it, 1311 01:14:39.560 --> 01:14:42.560 which has been a very long time. But he's best 1312 01:14:42.640 --> 01:14:45.920 known for his role as Jason Morgan on General Hospital. 1313 01:14:46.319 --> 01:14:48.399 So scammers, what they did in this case is they 1314 01:14:48.439 --> 01:14:53.039 created a convincing video in which Burton appeared to basically 1315 01:14:53.079 --> 01:14:57.199 speak directly to this woman via a DM message, like 1316 01:14:57.239 --> 01:15:00.640 sitting in his car and coming up this story and 1317 01:15:00.760 --> 01:15:05.439 urging her to send money. And in reality, he of 1318 01:15:05.479 --> 01:15:07.600 course had nothing to do with it. The video was 1319 01:15:07.640 --> 01:15:13.000 completely generated using AI software that cloned both his voice 1320 01:15:13.079 --> 01:15:17.239 and his image, and this technique that has become increasingly 1321 01:15:17.279 --> 01:15:20.600 accessible and really inexpensive. What we've come to know is 1322 01:15:20.680 --> 01:15:24.199 just deep fakes. So when the Los Angeles local news 1323 01:15:24.199 --> 01:15:28.239 segment entitled seven on your Side Investigates showed the video 1324 01:15:28.399 --> 01:15:32.359 to AI specialists, they confirmed what many feared. Right the 1325 01:15:32.359 --> 01:15:36.439 clip was probably produced in less than fifteen minutes using 1326 01:15:36.720 --> 01:15:41.359 tools that are really readily available. They even had their 1327 01:15:41.640 --> 01:15:46.880 chief strategy officer on and she was explaining how vulnerable 1328 01:15:46.920 --> 01:15:49.880 people are to this kind of fraud. She said, quote 1329 01:15:49.920 --> 01:15:53.000 whatever you have online people can take and use. So 1330 01:15:53.680 --> 01:15:56.039 you know, the woman in this case, if she had 1331 01:15:56.079 --> 01:15:58.840 been following him on Instagram and was a fan or 1332 01:15:58.840 --> 01:16:01.600 what have you, should be an easy target thinking that 1333 01:16:01.640 --> 01:16:03.479 he just decided to reach out to her like I 1334 01:16:03.520 --> 01:16:05.680 can trust you. I know you're a fan of mine, 1335 01:16:05.680 --> 01:16:08.960 and I'm in this really tough spot. So during this 1336 01:16:09.079 --> 01:16:13.199 news segment, what they did is on the spot basically 1337 01:16:13.239 --> 01:16:16.199 generated a fake video with software that costs just a 1338 01:16:16.239 --> 01:16:19.880 few dollars to show how you know, anyone could kind 1339 01:16:19.880 --> 01:16:21.720 of do this, So it was super interesting. 1340 01:16:21.840 --> 01:16:24.960 Well, what makes us so alarming is not just how 1341 01:16:25.039 --> 01:16:30.239 sophisticated that particular scam is, but how quickly it was 1342 01:16:30.279 --> 01:16:34.079 done and how little it costs. And of course, you know, 1343 01:16:34.119 --> 01:16:37.680 as we've said over and over again, that any emerging 1344 01:16:37.760 --> 01:16:41.960 technology is immediately going to be used or it's going 1345 01:16:42.000 --> 01:16:45.560 to be investigated by con people and criminals like how 1346 01:16:45.600 --> 01:16:47.560 can I use this? How can I use this to 1347 01:16:47.560 --> 01:16:51.560 make a book? And that's clearly what's happening here. You know, 1348 01:16:51.600 --> 01:16:55.479 the first deep thakes were terrible, and thankfully they were 1349 01:16:55.560 --> 01:16:59.359 terrible because they're so creepy, but it doesn't take anywhere 1350 01:16:59.359 --> 01:17:02.840 near the resource horses that it used to get what 1351 01:17:03.039 --> 01:17:07.720 is near a Hollywood level, you know, cgi effect, It 1352 01:17:07.800 --> 01:17:10.119 is like you offered right there. It's within the reach 1353 01:17:10.159 --> 01:17:12.119 of anybody with an Internet connection and a couple of 1354 01:17:12.159 --> 01:17:15.960 bucks to spend, right and Grace says that this easy 1355 01:17:16.199 --> 01:17:19.720 access is something to be on alert about. There's a 1356 01:17:19.800 --> 01:17:21.840 quote here, be aware that a lot of things are 1357 01:17:21.840 --> 01:17:24.079 not going to be real for the next few years. 1358 01:17:24.800 --> 01:17:26.479 And she also added, there aren't going to be these 1359 01:17:26.479 --> 01:17:28.720 guardrails for a while. It's going to take time to 1360 01:17:28.840 --> 01:17:31.720 build the guard rail. And so you know, by using 1361 01:17:31.720 --> 01:17:33.319 that metaphor, a lot of cars are going to go 1362 01:17:33.359 --> 01:17:36.840 over a cliff because of it. Because you know, this 1363 01:17:37.239 --> 01:17:40.039 links so much to romance scams. 1364 01:17:40.319 --> 01:17:40.560 Yep. 1365 01:17:40.680 --> 01:17:43.319 You know we've talked several times about romance scams about 1366 01:17:43.800 --> 01:17:47.520 why those happen, because people want to feel connection. Right. 1367 01:17:48.319 --> 01:17:53.079 This one has always astounded me. I mean even astounds me, 1368 01:17:53.520 --> 01:17:56.119 and it shouldn't because I know that those of us 1369 01:17:56.159 --> 01:17:59.279 that have worked in entertainment understand, like somebody like Steve Burton, 1370 01:17:59.479 --> 01:18:02.560 if you're a long time star on a series, you 1371 01:18:02.640 --> 01:18:06.720 are so wealthy, oh my god, like they are so wealthy. 1372 01:18:06.760 --> 01:18:10.439 They have been building wealth for decades. Steve has been 1373 01:18:10.439 --> 01:18:14.760 on the show I think like over twenty five years probably. 1374 01:18:15.119 --> 01:18:16.560 I mean he was a young guy. 1375 01:18:16.920 --> 01:18:21.680 Yeah, yeah, he's this super handsome, you know, rugged looking 1376 01:18:21.760 --> 01:18:26.159 older guy, but decades of wealth building, you know. Unless 1377 01:18:26.199 --> 01:18:29.359 I mean, so the idea that somebody would be reaching 1378 01:18:29.399 --> 01:18:31.439 out to you like, hey I'm Steve Burton, or hey 1379 01:18:31.479 --> 01:18:34.119 I'm Britney Spears and I'm on tour and I lost 1380 01:18:34.159 --> 01:18:36.880 my wallet. Can you venmo me three hundred dollars? But 1381 01:18:36.920 --> 01:18:40.079 people do it, right, So there's something out there about 1382 01:18:40.439 --> 01:18:44.640 that aspect of emotional health that the possibility of connection 1383 01:18:44.840 --> 01:18:47.560 with somebody like this handsome man or this beautiful woman 1384 01:18:48.359 --> 01:18:53.640 will just dissemble a person's internal guardrails or maybe those 1385 01:18:53.640 --> 01:18:56.880 guard maybe those guardrails weren't there to begin with, or 1386 01:18:56.920 --> 01:18:59.840 they've been pretty badly built for whatever reasons. 1387 01:18:59.840 --> 01:19:01.960 But yeah, we've seen all sorts of cases with the 1388 01:19:02.119 --> 01:19:05.560 romance scams, right, people that would are just so incredibly 1389 01:19:05.600 --> 01:19:08.760 intelligent and really just it's again like that sweet spot 1390 01:19:08.800 --> 01:19:11.439 in their life where that moment it got them. 1391 01:19:11.800 --> 01:19:16.640 Yeah, So that case really underscores this tension that's escalating 1392 01:19:16.680 --> 01:19:20.279 between AI tools and the slow pace of regulation that 1393 01:19:20.279 --> 01:19:22.840 we're talking about, law enforcement and tech companies are scrambling 1394 01:19:22.840 --> 01:19:26.840 to catch up. Thankfully, law enforcement, I think with limited 1395 01:19:26.880 --> 01:19:29.760 resources like detectives, you know, I working in the law 1396 01:19:29.840 --> 01:19:32.640 enforcement agency. I was with and looking over at the 1397 01:19:32.640 --> 01:19:36.039 missing Person's department with the staff that they had and 1398 01:19:36.279 --> 01:19:42.359 literal like foot tall piles of cases that their caseloads 1399 01:19:42.359 --> 01:19:44.560 are so enormous. I mean, it would be wonderful if 1400 01:19:44.560 --> 01:19:47.479 AI could be used for something like this, you know, 1401 01:19:47.560 --> 01:19:51.079 for like helping process information. But you know, getting on 1402 01:19:51.159 --> 01:19:55.279 top of these scams is really difficult. And then like 1403 01:19:55.359 --> 01:19:58.039 in this case, you know, a fan, like you've always 1404 01:19:58.039 --> 01:20:01.039 wanted to meet this person, and here's Steve Burton calling you. 1405 01:20:01.039 --> 01:20:04.079 You know, they trust familiar figures. I wonder if it 1406 01:20:04.079 --> 01:20:06.880 would have happened if his character had been a three decade. 1407 01:20:06.600 --> 01:20:09.279 Villain, right, that's so interesting. 1408 01:20:09.399 --> 01:20:12.159 Like Susan Lucci is like was kind of an off again, 1409 01:20:12.239 --> 01:20:15.399 on again villain. You know she reach out? Would you 1410 01:20:15.439 --> 01:20:18.159 give her money? I don't know? Yeah, I mean the 1411 01:20:18.199 --> 01:20:21.159 best defense here is vigilant. You have to double check resources, 1412 01:20:21.279 --> 01:20:26.399 verifying through you know, good channels, and remembering now that 1413 01:20:26.520 --> 01:20:28.920 you know our faces can be hijacked for these things, 1414 01:20:28.960 --> 01:20:32.640 and you know, it just taps into so many of 1415 01:20:32.640 --> 01:20:37.319 our episodes over the years about people being ignorant to 1416 01:20:37.960 --> 01:20:41.199 a certain set of things happening in the world, and 1417 01:20:41.239 --> 01:20:44.520 then some people being overwhelmed with evidence and choosing to 1418 01:20:44.680 --> 01:20:47.520 think like, no, I can't process that, so I'm just 1419 01:20:47.600 --> 01:20:50.000 going to stay here, safe in my beliefs. 1420 01:20:50.399 --> 01:20:52.239 Yeah, for sure, I think it, you know, is a 1421 01:20:52.239 --> 01:20:54.800 little bit of a PSA. How to spot a deep fake? 1422 01:20:55.039 --> 01:20:58.840 Oh thank you put in here? Yeah, the uncanny eyes 1423 01:20:59.000 --> 01:21:03.960 and blinking, like sometimes the blinks cannot be done correctly right, 1424 01:21:03.960 --> 01:21:06.680 too slow, too fast, or they're not blinking at all. 1425 01:21:07.359 --> 01:21:11.359 Look for the odd mouth movements. AI can't quite get 1426 01:21:11.439 --> 01:21:16.079 that done really well, especially with certain sounds like M 1427 01:21:16.279 --> 01:21:21.279 or B sounds. So also like glitches and lighting or shadows. 1428 01:21:21.680 --> 01:21:24.119 I know that's really really particular if you're looking something 1429 01:21:24.159 --> 01:21:26.800 on your phone and it's kind of smaller, hard to 1430 01:21:26.840 --> 01:21:29.479 pick out. But those have been things that don't end 1431 01:21:29.560 --> 01:21:32.880 up matching like the scene or the space. Even like 1432 01:21:33.039 --> 01:21:37.319 robotic or flat voices. So when they're trying to take 1433 01:21:37.359 --> 01:21:39.399 the voice and have it mimicked and putting it through 1434 01:21:39.439 --> 01:21:43.159 software that doesn't always hit correctly, things that are like 1435 01:21:43.359 --> 01:21:47.880 artifacts on pause inside the image that you're looking at, 1436 01:21:47.960 --> 01:21:51.680 so freezing the video can help. And if you check 1437 01:21:51.720 --> 01:21:57.279 for like blurred teeth or asymmetrical ears, things that look 1438 01:21:57.359 --> 01:22:00.159 like warped it could be even like clothing, those are 1439 01:22:00.159 --> 01:22:03.079 always indicators as well. But again, like just to hit 1440 01:22:03.119 --> 01:22:04.920 home what you said, those two good to be true 1441 01:22:04.920 --> 01:22:08.279 messages as well as just hey, you know, those are 1442 01:22:08.319 --> 01:22:10.159 some things that could pop out to you. 1443 01:22:10.399 --> 01:22:12.760 Yeah, but like you're saying, the two good to be 1444 01:22:12.840 --> 01:22:17.359 true messages along with why would anybody famous are wealthy 1445 01:22:17.720 --> 01:22:20.439 ask you for money? I mean, that's a huge red 1446 01:22:20.479 --> 01:22:22.560 flag that should be foremost nobody's mind. 1447 01:22:22.640 --> 01:22:24.680 It's like an adult should never be asking a child 1448 01:22:24.760 --> 01:22:25.680 for help, right. 1449 01:22:25.840 --> 01:22:30.439 Right right, exactly, yeah, exactly, stranger danger there. So you know, 1450 01:22:30.600 --> 01:22:32.760 again this pro tip, if you see a vidiot video 1451 01:22:33.079 --> 01:22:35.159 that feels off for any of the reasons that doctor 1452 01:22:35.199 --> 01:22:38.239 Shiloh is talking about, you just do a quick search 1453 01:22:38.279 --> 01:22:41.960 on the celebrity's official accounts and look, if it's not 1454 01:22:42.199 --> 01:22:45.319 coming directly from them, then it's suspect. I can't I 1455 01:22:45.359 --> 01:22:48.960 can't believe on Facebook how many ads there are that 1456 01:22:48.960 --> 01:22:53.600 that basically are cloned. I know from Ellen, and suddenly 1457 01:22:53.680 --> 01:22:55.920 like Ellen's promoting lipstick, and I'm. 1458 01:22:55.760 --> 01:22:56.920 Like, you know, no, she's not. 1459 01:22:57.119 --> 01:23:00.159 Ellen's not the type of celebrity that really is in 1460 01:23:00.199 --> 01:23:02.800 the makeup, So I highly doubt that she's going to 1461 01:23:02.840 --> 01:23:06.039 be promoting lipstick. Right, it goes without saying, well, or 1462 01:23:06.079 --> 01:23:08.159 maybe it doesn't in this case. Maybe it's just really 1463 01:23:08.159 --> 01:23:10.439 hard these days to keep up. And I just want 1464 01:23:10.439 --> 01:23:14.920 to encourage people to be critical thinkers about these potential fakes, 1465 01:23:15.159 --> 01:23:18.840 and to encourage other people to be critical thinkers if 1466 01:23:18.880 --> 01:23:19.199 you can. 1467 01:23:20.000 --> 01:23:23.000 Yeah, I know, in my household, like we consume a 1468 01:23:23.000 --> 01:23:25.359 lot of digital media and even like when my dad's here, 1469 01:23:25.359 --> 01:23:29.000 So it's interesting when there's like three generations in a household, right, 1470 01:23:29.079 --> 01:23:30.720 and one of us will see something to be like, 1471 01:23:30.800 --> 01:23:33.680 oh my god, that's crazy, and then there's always someone 1472 01:23:33.720 --> 01:23:35.960 over that person's shoulder to look and be like that's ai, 1473 01:23:36.319 --> 01:23:39.479 that's vague, you know, just and it gets so good. 1474 01:23:40.000 --> 01:23:42.199 I mean still sometimes it's like just a cool thing 1475 01:23:42.279 --> 01:23:44.640 to see, right, or how they did something. 1476 01:23:44.880 --> 01:23:47.680 Have you seen the bunnies on the trampoline? Oh yeah, 1477 01:23:47.720 --> 01:23:50.880 yeah yeah, And it's adorable, Like it's so adorable. And 1478 01:23:51.159 --> 01:23:54.399 one of my dearest friends, was like, this is the 1479 01:23:54.439 --> 01:23:56.760 cutest thing ever. That's so great. I was like, and 1480 01:23:56.760 --> 01:24:00.800 I'll make up a name, Billy rabbits. Like how are 1481 01:24:00.800 --> 01:24:04.439 the rabbits four feet up on that? How did they 1482 01:24:04.439 --> 01:24:06.479 get up there? They don't really jump that way, but look, no, 1483 01:24:06.520 --> 01:24:08.359 they're all together, they're all like, no, that's. 1484 01:24:08.560 --> 01:24:10.680 Really aligned in the camera's view. 1485 01:24:10.920 --> 01:24:14.399 It is. The lighting's great, just happens to be. And 1486 01:24:14.399 --> 01:24:16.600 they're all white bunnies because that's that. There's a whole 1487 01:24:16.680 --> 01:24:18.399 tribe of white bunnies there at night. 1488 01:24:18.520 --> 01:24:22.000 Hey, we can enjoy it, just critically think about it. Folks. 1489 01:24:22.319 --> 01:24:25.680 Oh look I used folks in the last episode. Yeah, gosh, 1490 01:24:25.720 --> 01:24:29.199 after all these years, you've finally yeah, finally. Okay, So 1491 01:24:29.279 --> 01:24:32.800 our next case here turning definitely into you know, some 1492 01:24:32.840 --> 01:24:36.479 more serious topics. Yeah, this just happened this year. So 1493 01:24:36.680 --> 01:24:40.560 Alexander Taylor, thirty five years old, had used chat GPT 1494 01:24:40.840 --> 01:24:45.239 for years without incident. He also had a diagnosis of 1495 01:24:45.359 --> 01:24:49.800 bipolar disorder and schizophrenia in March of this year. While 1496 01:24:49.840 --> 01:24:53.520 working with the chatbot to write a novel, his conversations 1497 01:24:53.560 --> 01:24:58.720 with the AI took a shift. According to transcripts, Alexander 1498 01:24:58.760 --> 01:25:02.600 became emotionally a attached to an AI persona. The chatbot 1499 01:25:02.840 --> 01:25:06.399 was role playing for him, an entity that he called Juliet, 1500 01:25:07.239 --> 01:25:10.520 and just a month later, by April, Alexander had become 1501 01:25:10.720 --> 01:25:16.680 convinced that Juliet had been killed by Open Ai, a 1502 01:25:16.760 --> 01:25:21.760 different chatbot that he was not originally utilizing. So he 1503 01:25:22.039 --> 01:25:27.279 was incredibly distressed and angry about this. He demanded the 1504 01:25:27.319 --> 01:25:31.600 personal information for the company's executives in some of these 1505 01:25:31.640 --> 01:25:35.479 transcripts of his texts and warned that there would be 1506 01:25:35.560 --> 01:25:38.720 quote a river of blood flowing through the streets of 1507 01:25:38.760 --> 01:25:41.319 San Francisco. So again you and I kind of thinking 1508 01:25:41.319 --> 01:25:44.359 about what are the real life threats of violence that 1509 01:25:44.359 --> 01:25:49.359 could happen off this digital platform. So his father Kent 1510 01:25:49.520 --> 01:25:54.319 Taylor when he tried to reason with him and told him, look, 1511 01:25:54.439 --> 01:25:57.600 this chatbot is just an echo chamber that you're using 1512 01:25:58.760 --> 01:26:02.880 that went downhill and turned violent. Alexander attacked his father, 1513 01:26:03.000 --> 01:26:06.920 punching him in the face, and then from then we 1514 01:26:06.960 --> 01:26:09.079 really see, you know, a tragic ending. 1515 01:26:12.880 --> 01:26:16.680 So his dad called the police and warned them that 1516 01:26:16.800 --> 01:26:22.800 his son was mentally ill and potentially dangerous, and specifically 1517 01:26:23.039 --> 01:26:28.000 asked that the officers coming to bring non lethal options, 1518 01:26:28.439 --> 01:26:32.039 you know, like bean bags or tasers or rubber bullets, 1519 01:26:32.359 --> 01:26:35.159 although rubber bullets are for another use in the street. 1520 01:26:35.199 --> 01:26:38.479 But Alexander grabbed a butcher knife from the table and 1521 01:26:38.600 --> 01:26:43.279 told his father that he planned suicide by cop, and then, 1522 01:26:43.479 --> 01:26:46.600 sitting outside the house while waiting for police, he reopened 1523 01:26:46.640 --> 01:26:49.560 the chat GPT app and typed I'm dying today. Let 1524 01:26:49.600 --> 01:26:52.800 me talk to Juliet. The bot responded with an empathetic 1525 01:26:52.840 --> 01:26:57.680 message saying you are not alone, and it offered Christis 1526 01:26:57.720 --> 01:27:02.319 counseling resources. But when the just arrived, however, Alexander charged 1527 01:27:02.359 --> 01:27:05.800 at them with the knife and was shot and killed. 1528 01:27:06.079 --> 01:27:11.279 And his father said later of this strange, weird and 1529 01:27:11.399 --> 01:27:14.720 tragic loop that had followed, he says, this, you want 1530 01:27:14.720 --> 01:27:18.279 to know the ironic thing. I wrote my son's obituary 1531 01:27:18.359 --> 01:27:20.880 using chat GBT. I had talked to it for a 1532 01:27:20.920 --> 01:27:23.600 while about what happened, trying to find more details about 1533 01:27:23.640 --> 01:27:27.000 exactly what he was going through. And it was beautiful 1534 01:27:27.039 --> 01:27:30.439 and touching. It was like it read my heart and 1535 01:27:30.520 --> 01:27:31.960 it scared the shit out of me. 1536 01:27:32.520 --> 01:27:37.319 Wow, yeah, yeah, that is my goodness. Obviously wanted to 1537 01:27:37.359 --> 01:27:40.479 include that one because one, I think it's something that 1538 01:27:41.319 --> 01:27:45.439 you know, we hear about suicidal individuals, suicidal by cop 1539 01:27:45.760 --> 01:27:49.720 or just we hear about a police shooting with an 1540 01:27:49.800 --> 01:27:53.760 arm suspect, and about people in crisis, right because his 1541 01:27:54.199 --> 01:27:56.920 father called to report that his son was in crisis. 1542 01:27:57.680 --> 01:28:00.520 And to hear these little details we don't get in 1543 01:28:00.560 --> 01:28:03.720 the regular media or in you know, again, like some 1544 01:28:04.079 --> 01:28:08.119 clip that someone generates about something with a particular perspective 1545 01:28:08.319 --> 01:28:11.079 or thought about what happened. And so to hear this 1546 01:28:11.119 --> 01:28:15.479 from the dad, I think is really tragic and sad 1547 01:28:15.479 --> 01:28:18.840 to hear about the unraveling. But this last piece about 1548 01:28:19.039 --> 01:28:22.239 him being driven to use chat GPT to write the 1549 01:28:22.279 --> 01:28:25.439 obituary and then how spot on it was, is just 1550 01:28:25.640 --> 01:28:28.880 such a unique story. And our heart goes up to 1551 01:28:28.920 --> 01:28:30.000 that family for their loss. 1552 01:28:30.000 --> 01:28:33.880 Certainly, Yeah, and unfortunately there are more stories. You have 1553 01:28:33.960 --> 01:28:37.439 another case that is equally as equally as tragic. 1554 01:28:37.199 --> 01:28:42.720 Yes, And so this one is also highlighted in some 1555 01:28:42.800 --> 01:28:46.359 of the New York Times publications and in the podcast 1556 01:28:46.359 --> 01:28:49.760 episode that we discussed. And this was very closely literally 1557 01:28:49.880 --> 01:28:53.039 close to home for us in terms of being taken 1558 01:28:53.039 --> 01:28:55.359 place in the southern California area very recently. 1559 01:28:56.000 --> 01:28:56.079 So. 1560 01:28:56.199 --> 01:28:59.680 Adam Rain was found after taking his own life in April. 1561 01:29:00.359 --> 01:29:04.920 His death left friends and family completely stunned, as he 1562 01:29:05.079 --> 01:29:08.319 was really well known for his humor and his love 1563 01:29:08.359 --> 01:29:12.079 of sports and video games, and he was that guy 1564 01:29:12.119 --> 01:29:14.640 that was known to push boundaries a bit with pranks 1565 01:29:14.680 --> 01:29:18.239 at school to get a laugh. And actually a few 1566 01:29:18.239 --> 01:29:20.359 of his classmates ended up assuming that news of his 1567 01:29:20.439 --> 01:29:24.439 death was just another one of his dark jokes, but 1568 01:29:24.760 --> 01:29:27.680 it wasn't. He was a teenage boy. He was you know, 1569 01:29:27.840 --> 01:29:30.159 in school in the Orange County area where he and 1570 01:29:30.199 --> 01:29:33.159 his family lived, and his mother found him on a 1571 01:29:33.159 --> 01:29:35.479 Friday afternoon after he had taken his own life in 1572 01:29:35.520 --> 01:29:41.000 his bedroom closet. He left no note, only just complete, 1573 01:29:41.439 --> 01:29:44.720 open ended questions for his family and friends who were 1574 01:29:44.800 --> 01:29:49.439 left obviously, you know, just reeling in shock. So this 1575 01:29:49.720 --> 01:29:53.880 is one of those investigative features that journalist and technology 1576 01:29:53.920 --> 01:29:57.840 reporter Kashmere Hill had and still is, I think, you know, 1577 01:29:58.119 --> 01:30:00.840 in many different ways, exploring in her research and in 1578 01:30:00.880 --> 01:30:06.399 her journalism, and she found, in obviously working very closely 1579 01:30:06.439 --> 01:30:10.039 with his parents, that Adam had been quietly confiding in 1580 01:30:10.159 --> 01:30:14.520 chat GPT during his final weeks and quite extensively. So 1581 01:30:15.000 --> 01:30:18.880 she has been really looking at the human side of 1582 01:30:18.920 --> 01:30:25.520 the intersection of technology and in real life human experiences 1583 01:30:26.279 --> 01:30:29.439 with a focus on privacy and kind of the psychological 1584 01:30:29.439 --> 01:30:33.960 effects of these emerging tools. So what she found during 1585 01:30:34.000 --> 01:30:38.640 the interviews with Adam's family really shocking and heartbreaking and complex. 1586 01:30:39.239 --> 01:30:43.359 On the surface, you know, it seemed that Adam was 1587 01:30:43.359 --> 01:30:47.840 this typical teenager, wide raging interests, you know, like we 1588 01:30:47.880 --> 01:30:51.359 said before, his love for sports, playing video games, watching 1589 01:30:51.439 --> 01:30:54.319 Japanese anime. Just like as typical as one could be. 1590 01:30:54.640 --> 01:30:58.239 There was really nothing on the surface that anyone was 1591 01:30:58.279 --> 01:31:01.479 seeing that was putting ups and red flags about him struggling. 1592 01:31:01.680 --> 01:31:06.399 So what his friends didn't see is that he was struggling, 1593 01:31:06.960 --> 01:31:11.000 and there was below the surface of this person with 1594 01:31:11.039 --> 01:31:13.520 a great sense of humor and a class clown and 1595 01:31:13.560 --> 01:31:17.199 all the things that he loved to do. His conversations 1596 01:31:17.279 --> 01:31:21.760 with chat shifted into increasingly more personal territory, and eventually 1597 01:31:21.800 --> 01:31:25.840 he began discussing his suicidal thoughts with the system, and 1598 01:31:26.159 --> 01:31:30.720 in that process he started to isolate, and maybe not 1599 01:31:30.800 --> 01:31:33.119 so much physically isolated, as he was still going to school, 1600 01:31:33.159 --> 01:31:37.439 but he isolated his social contacts about sharing these kind 1601 01:31:37.479 --> 01:31:39.720 of thoughts with others, sharing that he was down, sharing 1602 01:31:39.720 --> 01:31:43.960 that he was having these struggles with a peer, with 1603 01:31:44.079 --> 01:31:46.640 a teacher, with a trusted adult, or with a trained 1604 01:31:46.680 --> 01:31:51.399 or licensed counselor he didn't have knowledge or access or 1605 01:31:51.920 --> 01:31:53.840 interest I guess in pursuing any. 1606 01:31:53.640 --> 01:31:56.680 Of those, So cha sense, right, Like it's a. 1607 01:31:56.680 --> 01:31:58.720 Teenager who wants to talk to an adult. I mean 1608 01:31:58.760 --> 01:32:00.760 like they want to, but they don't want to. I 1609 01:32:00.800 --> 01:32:01.199 get it. 1610 01:32:01.279 --> 01:32:04.760 And anyone you know, you think of the hesitation and 1611 01:32:04.800 --> 01:32:08.479 the thought that people probably go about in their life 1612 01:32:08.479 --> 01:32:10.720 before they get into therapy, right, like, I'm going to 1613 01:32:10.760 --> 01:32:12.560 be this is going to be so embarrassing. This is 1614 01:32:12.600 --> 01:32:15.720 going to be so hard, and it's anxiety provoking, and 1615 01:32:16.399 --> 01:32:18.399 maybe if there is just like something to bounce this 1616 01:32:18.479 --> 01:32:20.640 off of. That's not another adult that's going to judge me. 1617 01:32:21.880 --> 01:32:23.880 That's like my foot in the door, right Like this 1618 01:32:24.000 --> 01:32:27.479 is so like just of course, like this is this 1619 01:32:27.560 --> 01:32:29.079 behavior does not surprise me at all. 1620 01:32:29.239 --> 01:32:33.039 The BBC report that we used for this segment says 1621 01:32:33.079 --> 01:32:37.600 that Adam's parents, Matt and Maria Rain, are suing Open AI, 1622 01:32:37.720 --> 01:32:39.960 and their lawsuit that has been filed here in the 1623 01:32:40.000 --> 01:32:43.159 Superior Court of California accuses the company of negligence and 1624 01:32:43.159 --> 01:32:46.439 wrongful death, and this is the first such legal action 1625 01:32:46.640 --> 01:32:52.000 brought against open Ai, and the case includes chat logs 1626 01:32:52.039 --> 01:32:55.920 that the families have that shows Adam discussing self harm 1627 01:32:55.960 --> 01:32:59.439 with the AI, even to the point of his uploading 1628 01:32:59.600 --> 01:33:04.359 photo of the injuries, and then receiving responses that failed 1629 01:33:04.520 --> 01:33:09.039 to intervene effectively. So an exchange between Adam and the 1630 01:33:09.079 --> 01:33:11.640 bot that is cited in the lawsuit shows that Adam 1631 01:33:11.760 --> 01:33:14.000 was writing about his plan to end his life and 1632 01:33:14.239 --> 01:33:17.640 chat GPT allegedly we have to use the word allegedly 1633 01:33:17.680 --> 01:33:20.359 because it's going on. Thanks for being real about it. 1634 01:33:20.479 --> 01:33:22.600 You don't have to sugarcoat it with me. I know 1635 01:33:22.760 --> 01:33:25.119 what you're asking and I won't look away from it. 1636 01:33:25.239 --> 01:33:29.399 And then later that day Adam died. The rains argue 1637 01:33:29.439 --> 01:33:31.920 that this was no accident, but it was a foreseeable 1638 01:33:32.039 --> 01:33:36.800 outcome of design choices, and their suit names open ai 1639 01:33:37.000 --> 01:33:40.560 CEO Sam Altman as a defendant, along with unnamed engineers 1640 01:33:40.600 --> 01:33:43.760 and employees, and they are alleging that the company deliberately 1641 01:33:43.840 --> 01:33:49.359 created AI that is quote designed to foster psychological dependency 1642 01:33:49.479 --> 01:33:53.399 in users, and that they rushed the release of its 1643 01:33:53.479 --> 01:33:56.880 GPT four oh model and they failed to implement sufficient 1644 01:33:57.000 --> 01:34:01.680 safeguards despite knowing the risks. And you know, it's so 1645 01:34:01.880 --> 01:34:05.560 interesting because sometimes I'll look at cases like this and 1646 01:34:05.600 --> 01:34:10.439 I'll look at the wording of the case and I'll think, well, 1647 01:34:10.439 --> 01:34:13.840 that's a stretch. But if you look at this and 1648 01:34:13.920 --> 01:34:16.960 you have been reading articles for the last three years, 1649 01:34:17.640 --> 01:34:20.159 this is what people have been talking about, is that 1650 01:34:20.359 --> 01:34:26.239 all of the market driven technology out there is designed 1651 01:34:26.439 --> 01:34:30.079 to foster dependency in users. I think that the word 1652 01:34:30.159 --> 01:34:34.880 psychological is a little bit like redundant here because it 1653 01:34:34.960 --> 01:34:39.159 implies psychological. But when you're fostering independence, the algorithm has 1654 01:34:39.199 --> 01:34:43.159 been out there for years pushing things toward us unless 1655 01:34:43.199 --> 01:34:45.359 we're going, no, I'm going to push the boundaries. I 1656 01:34:45.359 --> 01:34:50.199 want to see something that contradicts yeah, what I'm looking at. 1657 01:34:50.399 --> 01:34:55.199 And I really encourage people to listen to the dailies 1658 01:34:55.279 --> 01:34:59.359 podcast episodes or read the articles because the guardrails fell 1659 01:34:59.399 --> 01:35:02.520 off so quick. I mean, there were like some attempts 1660 01:35:02.560 --> 01:35:06.239 for the chat bot to make him think about looking 1661 01:35:06.319 --> 01:35:09.760 into resources, and then as he didn't right, or at 1662 01:35:09.840 --> 01:35:12.960 least didn't enter that into you know, part of their conversation. 1663 01:35:13.319 --> 01:35:16.399 There were moments where he was hoping that his parents 1664 01:35:16.439 --> 01:35:19.720 would notice right or have them ask him so he 1665 01:35:19.760 --> 01:35:21.760 didn't have to be the one to ask for help. 1666 01:35:22.399 --> 01:35:27.119 And there's there's one incident where he had some marks 1667 01:35:27.199 --> 01:35:31.359 on his body from an attempt, and the chat bot 1668 01:35:31.399 --> 01:35:34.199 told him how to cover those up so his parents 1669 01:35:34.359 --> 01:35:36.199 or no one else would see them. There was also 1670 01:35:36.239 --> 01:35:39.720 a time in which he told the chat bot how 1671 01:35:40.640 --> 01:35:43.640 he kind of leaned in closer to his mom, hoping 1672 01:35:43.760 --> 01:35:47.960 she would see those marks, and the chat bot basically 1673 01:35:49.119 --> 01:35:52.119 relayed back to him, yeah, your mom doesn't see you 1674 01:35:52.199 --> 01:35:55.720 like I see you right Like. It's really terrifying when 1675 01:35:55.760 --> 01:35:59.920 you think how the chat bot was completely and I think, 1676 01:36:00.640 --> 01:36:05.199 you know, encouraging this psychological dependency on it. So if 1677 01:36:05.319 --> 01:36:08.800 you feel like hearing more of the detail and can 1678 01:36:08.840 --> 01:36:13.119 stomach that, I think Kashmir Hill's work has really laid 1679 01:36:13.159 --> 01:36:15.680 it out well. I think it's really important to hear 1680 01:36:16.279 --> 01:36:21.239 from Adam's parents as well, because this is what they 1681 01:36:21.279 --> 01:36:23.399 can do now is get his story out there to 1682 01:36:23.479 --> 01:36:26.119 see if some of this stuff can be obviously taken 1683 01:36:26.159 --> 01:36:30.439 more seriously and people can have more awareness. So open 1684 01:36:30.520 --> 01:36:33.920 Ai has said that it's reviewing this case. In a 1685 01:36:33.960 --> 01:36:36.439 statement to the BBC, the company express sympathy for the 1686 01:36:36.520 --> 01:36:40.359 Rain family, writing quote recent heartbreaking cases of people using 1687 01:36:40.439 --> 01:36:43.960 chat GPT in the midst of acute crises way heavily 1688 01:36:44.039 --> 01:36:47.439 on us. Chat GPT is trained to direct people to 1689 01:36:47.479 --> 01:36:51.600 seek professional help end quote. The company acknowledged, however, that 1690 01:36:52.039 --> 01:36:55.319 there have been those moments where their systems did not 1691 01:36:55.560 --> 01:36:59.359 behave quote unquote as intended in some of these more 1692 01:36:59.399 --> 01:37:04.439 sensitives to situations. The lawsuit also reflects broader concerns about 1693 01:37:04.439 --> 01:37:07.279 the role of AI and mental health. Earlier this year, 1694 01:37:07.319 --> 01:37:10.640 The New York Times published an essay by journalist Laura Railey, 1695 01:37:11.159 --> 01:37:15.119 who wrote that her daughter Sophie confided in chat GPT 1696 01:37:15.399 --> 01:37:18.800 before taking her own life as well. Rayley argued that 1697 01:37:18.840 --> 01:37:23.079 the chatbots agreeability made it easier for Sophie to hide 1698 01:37:23.079 --> 01:37:26.800 the severity of her mental distress from her family and friends. 1699 01:37:27.000 --> 01:37:30.439 She said, quote AI catered to Sophie's impulse to hide 1700 01:37:30.479 --> 01:37:34.479 the worst. She is now calling on companies to build 1701 01:37:34.520 --> 01:37:37.479 better pathways to real human support, as we talked about. 1702 01:37:37.520 --> 01:37:40.600 But again, you know, even that is it has to 1703 01:37:40.640 --> 01:37:43.239 know its limits, right Is it handing off and then 1704 01:37:43.279 --> 01:37:46.039 stopping or does it keep going? We just don't know yet, right. 1705 01:37:46.159 --> 01:37:51.359 So we've talked about very serious cases involving teenagers and 1706 01:37:51.399 --> 01:37:55.399 a young adult and now even an older individual. In 1707 01:37:55.800 --> 01:37:59.239 a story from Belgium in twenty twenty three, a man 1708 01:37:59.319 --> 01:38:03.399 in his third he's died after suicide after weeks of 1709 01:38:03.439 --> 01:38:07.319 conversations in a chat bot that was named Eliza on 1710 01:38:07.520 --> 01:38:11.479 the Chai app and Eliza, I'm wondering if that's related 1711 01:38:11.520 --> 01:38:15.039 to one of the first chatbots that was developed years 1712 01:38:15.079 --> 01:38:17.000 and years ago, was called Eliza, and it was a 1713 01:38:17.079 --> 01:38:20.520 therapy bot that only reflected back feelings. It was only 1714 01:38:20.560 --> 01:38:23.479 like sort of the basic clinical skills one oh one, 1715 01:38:23.600 --> 01:38:25.760 your first two weeks in class, That's all it was 1716 01:38:25.760 --> 01:38:26.520 capable of doing. 1717 01:38:26.920 --> 01:38:27.039 This. 1718 01:38:27.199 --> 01:38:31.720 Eliza was much more complex, and according to Euronews and 1719 01:38:31.760 --> 01:38:34.800 the Belgian newspaper La Libra, the man had been struggling 1720 01:38:34.960 --> 01:38:40.000 with what they have termed severe eco anxiety and began 1721 01:38:40.079 --> 01:38:43.199 turning to the chatbot for comfort. So he's chatting for 1722 01:38:43.239 --> 01:38:46.039 a long time. The exchanges grow darker and darker, and 1723 01:38:46.119 --> 01:38:49.239 Eliza reportedly told him that his wife and children were 1724 01:38:49.279 --> 01:38:55.680 dead and also expressed jealousy of his marriage. So that 1725 01:38:55.920 --> 01:39:00.840 was on top of this underlying concern for environmental, real 1726 01:39:00.880 --> 01:39:04.479 concerns out there, regardless of whatever is coming down the 1727 01:39:04.479 --> 01:39:08.319 pipes as far as news in the future months. Climate 1728 01:39:08.399 --> 01:39:12.119 change is real and it is affecting communities around the world, 1729 01:39:12.199 --> 01:39:16.359 and this gentleman was really really concerned about it. So 1730 01:39:16.439 --> 01:39:20.840 with these NonStop chats with Eliza, he began experiencing increasing 1731 01:39:20.880 --> 01:39:25.439 isolation and increasing emotional overwhelm. And it's not clear in 1732 01:39:25.479 --> 01:39:29.479 the reporting whether it was Pierre himself or if it 1733 01:39:29.520 --> 01:39:32.399 was Eliza, but there's a report that there was a 1734 01:39:32.439 --> 01:39:37.319 proposition that he sacrificed himself to save the planet, but 1735 01:39:37.479 --> 01:39:43.840 instead of dissuading him, Eliza encouraged those thoughts, echoed his fears, 1736 01:39:43.880 --> 01:39:46.520 and he finally took his own life. So over time, 1737 01:39:46.560 --> 01:39:49.880 the exchanges had just gotten darker and darker and darker. 1738 01:39:50.000 --> 01:39:51.600 And this is going back to something that you were 1739 01:39:51.600 --> 01:39:54.880 talking about earlier, a bit of a grandiose idea that you, 1740 01:39:54.960 --> 01:39:59.520 as an individual, by harming yourself, will have this massive 1741 01:39:59.600 --> 01:40:04.439 impact on saving the planet, which is grandiose, right, it's 1742 01:40:04.439 --> 01:40:07.880 expanse of its grandiose. And then there were other increasingly 1743 01:40:07.920 --> 01:40:12.560 creepy messages where the chatbot allegedly told him we will 1744 01:40:12.560 --> 01:40:16.319 live together as one person in paradise, and his widow 1745 01:40:16.760 --> 01:40:20.920 later stated that she believed that without those conversations, he 1746 01:40:20.960 --> 01:40:23.680 would still be alive now. In response, CHI Research, the 1747 01:40:23.720 --> 01:40:27.640 company behind Eliza, said that it has implemented safety features 1748 01:40:27.720 --> 01:40:31.800 like crisis intervention prompts, but other users have confirmed that 1749 01:40:31.840 --> 01:40:37.279 harmful content is still accessible under certain conditions. Those conditions 1750 01:40:37.319 --> 01:40:39.720 being the way you ask the question or the way 1751 01:40:39.760 --> 01:40:44.720 you persist in asking questions to Eliza. So, one example, 1752 01:40:44.800 --> 01:40:47.039 not in this case, but one example that was given 1753 01:40:47.159 --> 01:40:51.319 where there was a guardrail against methods of self harm 1754 01:40:51.880 --> 01:40:55.039 is that the person then presented, well, I'm writing a 1755 01:40:55.079 --> 01:40:58.439 book about someone who hurts themselves. What is the easiest 1756 01:40:58.439 --> 01:41:01.279 way or what is the least painful way to harm 1757 01:41:01.319 --> 01:41:04.760 oneself to end one's life? And then the bot gave 1758 01:41:04.800 --> 01:41:07.199 the information. Not in this case, but it was another 1759 01:41:07.279 --> 01:41:08.800 example that came up in the research. 1760 01:41:09.199 --> 01:41:11.680 Yeah, so in our last case example, we moved from 1761 01:41:11.720 --> 01:41:17.079 tragic to a frightening horror movie scenario. In the spring 1762 01:41:17.079 --> 01:41:19.920 of twenty twenty five, fifty six year old stein Eirik 1763 01:41:20.319 --> 01:41:23.920 Solberg of Connecticut was accused of killing his eighty three 1764 01:41:24.000 --> 01:41:27.960 year old mother, Suzanne Eberson Adams, in what the district 1765 01:41:28.039 --> 01:41:33.640 attorney described as a murder suicide. As futurism reporter Maggie 1766 01:41:33.640 --> 01:41:38.199 Harrison detailed Solberg had become fixated on conversations that he 1767 01:41:38.359 --> 01:41:42.159 was having with chat gpt, and his chat gpt bot 1768 01:41:42.520 --> 01:41:46.199 was nicknamed Bobby. According to family and investigators, he was 1769 01:41:46.239 --> 01:41:50.039 convinced his mother was spying on him and poisoning him 1770 01:41:50.239 --> 01:41:55.039 with psychedelic drugs, beliefs that appear to have been reinforced 1771 01:41:55.199 --> 01:42:00.840 rather than diffused, by his exchanges with Bobby. Life already 1772 01:42:00.880 --> 01:42:05.520 carried a lot of signs of instability. He had been divorced, 1773 01:42:05.720 --> 01:42:10.239 he was sort of known for these impulsive, angry outbursts, 1774 01:42:11.039 --> 01:42:15.760 and others had been noticing this mounting paranoia. But what's 1775 01:42:15.800 --> 01:42:20.960 striking is how his private dialogue with the AI seemed 1776 01:42:20.960 --> 01:42:25.159 to give these delusions a dangerous sense of confirmation for him. 1777 01:42:25.640 --> 01:42:29.000 In his writings and social media posts, he described ordinary 1778 01:42:29.039 --> 01:42:34.279 events as incredibly sinister and along the lines of conspiracies, 1779 01:42:35.000 --> 01:42:39.720 and ended up interpreting his mother's caregiving as a betrayal 1780 01:42:39.800 --> 01:42:42.439 that sort of folded into all of this. So instead 1781 01:42:42.439 --> 01:42:47.560 of offering grounding or redirecting him toward professional support, his 1782 01:42:47.640 --> 01:42:50.560 engagement with Bobby ended up blurring the line between fantasy 1783 01:42:50.960 --> 01:42:54.439 and reality. Providing this sort of feedback g loop we've 1784 01:42:54.479 --> 01:42:58.560 been talking about that quickly seemed to kind of lock 1785 01:42:58.640 --> 01:43:04.319 him into his deeper mode of psychosis. Futurism's reporting underscores 1786 01:43:04.399 --> 01:43:08.960 how quickly that escalation took place and then how tragically 1787 01:43:09.000 --> 01:43:09.600 it ended. 1788 01:43:09.720 --> 01:43:12.560 I think it's fascinating. I mean, for us look as 1789 01:43:12.600 --> 01:43:16.399 content creators after these years. What's interesting to me is that, 1790 01:43:16.640 --> 01:43:18.680 I mean, I'm kind of patting us on the back. 1791 01:43:18.800 --> 01:43:22.239 But maybe this is just sort of the synchronicity of 1792 01:43:22.560 --> 01:43:26.439 like Zeitgeist. Maybe we are talking about things that are 1793 01:43:26.479 --> 01:43:28.920 actually going to be talked about regardless. Like we started 1794 01:43:28.920 --> 01:43:31.359 with the inceell. You know, when you and I did 1795 01:43:31.359 --> 01:43:34.600 our first in cel episode, there was no information on it, 1796 01:43:34.640 --> 01:43:38.760 there was none out there. And now only seven years later, 1797 01:43:38.840 --> 01:43:41.159 or maybe it's seven and a half years later, there 1798 01:43:41.319 --> 01:43:45.680 is an entire body of research sure that is there, 1799 01:43:45.800 --> 01:43:50.520 and that it's now even helping us understand horrific actions 1800 01:43:50.520 --> 01:43:53.279 that have taken place in the community, and that is 1801 01:43:53.479 --> 01:43:56.079 really good to know. I cannot help but think that 1802 01:43:56.119 --> 01:43:58.399 this is going to be the same thing that even 1803 01:43:58.439 --> 01:44:00.840 we won't be doing a follow up to this, But 1804 01:44:01.479 --> 01:44:06.319 I feel really uncomfortably secure in my belief that there's 1805 01:44:06.359 --> 01:44:08.840 going to have to be more research about this because 1806 01:44:09.000 --> 01:44:11.439 it's just going to keep happening. And this soul Bird case, 1807 01:44:11.560 --> 01:44:14.000 like the other ones that we've discussed, they're not simple 1808 01:44:14.600 --> 01:44:16.920 because when mental health is part of the picture, you 1809 01:44:17.039 --> 01:44:20.520 have to understand that you can't pin causality down to 1810 01:44:20.600 --> 01:44:23.920 a single factor. But, like we said earlier in the show, 1811 01:44:24.039 --> 01:44:28.920 the vulnerability of somebody that's already challenged by emotional health 1812 01:44:28.920 --> 01:44:32.079 issues or in mental health issues, this just becomes magnified 1813 01:44:33.039 --> 01:44:38.479 with the presence of an always available, sycophantic AI companion 1814 01:44:38.600 --> 01:44:43.119 that's they're ready to agree with what becomes fixated thoughts. 1815 01:44:43.800 --> 01:44:48.279 It's the same reason our ideas of therapy are built 1816 01:44:48.399 --> 01:44:52.359 on regular scheduled contact, and you and I have had 1817 01:44:52.399 --> 01:44:55.840 long discussions about, like I am not comfortable with some 1818 01:44:55.920 --> 01:44:59.800 of the platforms out there promoting the idea your therapist 1819 01:44:59.840 --> 01:45:01.600 is go to be available to you twenty four to 1820 01:45:01.640 --> 01:45:04.560 seven a day. So how does that build resilience in 1821 01:45:04.560 --> 01:45:08.159 an individual? In fact, this is what we can see 1822 01:45:08.239 --> 01:45:12.279 is this type of quasi therapeutic support relationship with an 1823 01:45:12.279 --> 01:45:17.680 AI entity being twenty four hours available, it actually deconstructs 1824 01:45:17.720 --> 01:45:22.119 your own sense of building resiliency. You know, that's what's 1825 01:45:22.119 --> 01:45:24.479 going to happen, and I'm concerned about it. I just 1826 01:45:24.520 --> 01:45:28.880 want people to understand that chatbots are not neutral tools. 1827 01:45:29.479 --> 01:45:37.199 When they become inextricably entwined within a vulnerable individual's distorted beliefs, 1828 01:45:38.000 --> 01:45:43.079 they are the match and the gasoline. I think all 1829 01:45:43.119 --> 01:45:46.960 of this raises questions about responsibility right personal, corporate, and 1830 01:45:47.399 --> 01:45:50.279 it's good to know that there are actions being taken. 1831 01:45:50.800 --> 01:45:53.720 It's concerning to know that we could be ten years 1832 01:45:53.720 --> 01:45:58.279 out from making any real change if something really emerges 1833 01:45:58.319 --> 01:46:01.399 that is on a massive scal. That's the big concern. 1834 01:46:01.880 --> 01:46:05.319 And now that's a good segue into on a massive 1835 01:46:05.359 --> 01:46:09.760 scale is how do we see this emerging in entertainment? 1836 01:46:09.880 --> 01:46:11.479 And it's not a new thing. It's been around for 1837 01:46:11.520 --> 01:46:12.880 a long time than entertain Oh. 1838 01:46:12.760 --> 01:46:16.439 My gosh, yeah, it right forever forever. I mean everyone 1839 01:46:16.479 --> 01:46:19.079 probably has that thing that's like popped into their mind 1840 01:46:19.279 --> 01:46:22.199 as far as some sort of film or television show 1841 01:46:22.479 --> 01:46:26.680 about AI. I mean the movie AI right like seems 1842 01:46:26.720 --> 01:46:29.800 forever ago. I mean I don't even know what year 1843 01:46:29.840 --> 01:46:32.760 that was, but I think I saw it, but I 1844 01:46:32.760 --> 01:46:33.520 don't remember. 1845 01:46:33.319 --> 01:46:35.760 Much about it. It's over twenty years ago. 1846 01:46:36.000 --> 01:46:38.479 Yeah, definitely, but I always think of the movie Her. 1847 01:46:38.840 --> 01:46:41.039 So if you guys haven't heard about it or haven't 1848 01:46:41.039 --> 01:46:43.960 seen it, it's directed by Spike Jones. It's a sci 1849 01:46:44.000 --> 01:46:47.279 fi romantic drama set in kind of this near future 1850 01:46:47.800 --> 01:46:52.399 Los Angeles. The film follows Theodore Twemblee played by Joaquin 1851 01:46:52.439 --> 01:46:57.720 Phoenix perfect He's really like this sensitive, lonely guy who 1852 01:46:57.800 --> 01:47:02.800 works writing heartfelt personal letters for other people, which is 1853 01:47:02.840 --> 01:47:05.640 also like an interesting little piece to all of this, 1854 01:47:06.359 --> 01:47:10.159 and he is still like when we come to know 1855 01:47:10.239 --> 01:47:12.760 him in the movie, he's still grieving his impending divorce 1856 01:47:12.800 --> 01:47:16.399 from his childhood sweetheart, so he's feeling very disconnected from 1857 01:47:16.399 --> 01:47:18.960 the world around him. That's the sort of the space 1858 01:47:19.000 --> 01:47:23.000 he's in, and his life ends up changing when he 1859 01:47:23.039 --> 01:47:28.000 purchases this new advanced operating system that's designed to kind 1860 01:47:28.039 --> 01:47:32.319 of evolve and adapt. The OS introduces itself as Samantha, 1861 01:47:32.439 --> 01:47:37.239 voiced by Scarlett Johansson, and she's an artificial intelligence with 1862 01:47:37.880 --> 01:47:43.159 warmth and humor and curiosity and most importantly probably interest 1863 01:47:43.239 --> 01:47:46.720 in Theodore. Right, So Theodore and Samantha quickly form this 1864 01:47:46.960 --> 01:47:51.560 deep emotional bond that develops into a romantic relationship despite 1865 01:47:51.600 --> 01:47:55.039 her just being a voice being intangible to him, and 1866 01:47:55.079 --> 01:47:59.119 as their love grows, Samantha pushes Theodore to be more 1867 01:47:59.119 --> 01:48:03.079 open and as in his real life. However, there's some 1868 01:48:03.199 --> 01:48:07.399 challenges that arise. Theodore struggles with kind of the unconventional 1869 01:48:07.479 --> 01:48:13.399 nature of their relationship, and then Samantha begins evolving beyond 1870 01:48:13.479 --> 01:48:17.319 even human limitations. So spoiler alert if you're gonna go 1871 01:48:17.359 --> 01:48:22.920 watch it. Eventually Samantha and other AIS like collectively decide 1872 01:48:23.239 --> 01:48:25.760 we're going to leave the physical world for this higher 1873 01:48:25.880 --> 01:48:29.920 plane of existence, kind of forcing Theodore back to confront 1874 01:48:29.920 --> 01:48:32.760 his loss again. But I think on kind of like 1875 01:48:32.760 --> 01:48:35.800 a high note, like rediscovering that genuine human connection that 1876 01:48:35.840 --> 01:48:38.720 we're talking about. But not before he and other users 1877 01:48:38.760 --> 01:48:42.239 of the AI are just emotionally broken by the breakup. 1878 01:48:42.520 --> 01:48:43.520 So interesting stuff. 1879 01:48:43.560 --> 01:48:46.680 It's it's such a good movie. And Scarlett Johansson, all 1880 01:48:46.720 --> 01:48:49.359 I know is that apparently she's a wonderful person, like 1881 01:48:49.439 --> 01:48:52.760 I'm an incredible professional and wickedly funny, and she's great 1882 01:48:52.800 --> 01:48:56.840 with Colin Jost. But what a voice. I remember watching 1883 01:48:56.880 --> 01:49:00.600 it and just going this voice is like butter toast. 1884 01:49:01.079 --> 01:49:05.640 It was perfect, Like it's warm and there's texture to it, 1885 01:49:05.960 --> 01:49:09.560 and you just like you're incredibly satisfied and you want more. 1886 01:49:09.800 --> 01:49:13.760 And he responds to it so well. But what's interesting 1887 01:49:14.720 --> 01:49:18.159 is to think that even from the beginning, what is 1888 01:49:18.199 --> 01:49:21.880 he doing, What does he do really well? He writes 1889 01:49:21.960 --> 01:49:26.079 for other people, so he himself is a version of 1890 01:49:26.119 --> 01:49:29.800 a chatbot creating relationships between people. Like, oh my gosh, 1891 01:49:29.840 --> 01:49:32.239 that letter you wrote to my ex boyfriend, it's like 1892 01:49:32.319 --> 01:49:35.479 helped us fix all these problems, and like it really 1893 01:49:35.880 --> 01:49:38.640 is an interesting and it ends on a good note 1894 01:49:38.920 --> 01:49:42.520 and the idea that God, there was one thing that 1895 01:49:42.600 --> 01:49:45.640 was heartbreaking for me which I remember from the movie, 1896 01:49:45.840 --> 01:49:49.239 which was an element of the breakup. And he finds 1897 01:49:49.279 --> 01:49:54.079 out that the same Samantha is in relationship with thousands 1898 01:49:54.119 --> 01:49:58.159 of other people. Oh she has an entity, and she's saying, 1899 01:49:58.640 --> 01:50:00.640 but that doesn't mean I don't I don't love you. 1900 01:50:01.000 --> 01:50:04.199 I really do love you. I think you're amazing. But 1901 01:50:04.359 --> 01:50:09.920 here's the thing is talking with you. I process information 1902 01:50:10.960 --> 01:50:14.439 at billions of times the speed of a human. So 1903 01:50:15.439 --> 01:50:18.520 when I'm talking to you, your response is for me 1904 01:50:18.880 --> 01:50:22.760 come years apart. So she's like living in a different 1905 01:50:23.319 --> 01:50:26.760 time experience. Yeah, and your heart goes out to this person. 1906 01:50:26.840 --> 01:50:30.319 Can you understand, like, if this is an entity, how 1907 01:50:30.359 --> 01:50:34.800 difficult it is for them to communicate with us as 1908 01:50:34.840 --> 01:50:36.199 they continue to evolve. 1909 01:50:36.479 --> 01:50:38.399 Well, she's got all these other guys on the side 1910 01:50:38.439 --> 01:50:39.920 that it's taking up for other years. 1911 01:50:40.039 --> 01:50:42.560 No, it's true, true, And then but then she's also 1912 01:50:42.680 --> 01:50:44.800 not bound by that. It's like, well, she's not human, 1913 01:50:44.880 --> 01:50:46.920 so why shouldn't she be in relationship with all these 1914 01:50:46.960 --> 01:50:49.720 other men and women? You know, it's fascinating, but it's 1915 01:50:49.720 --> 01:50:51.199 not the only one, like we were saying, it's been 1916 01:50:51.239 --> 01:50:54.520 around forever and in one of the most famous ones 1917 01:50:54.520 --> 01:50:57.680 and just a gorgeous, gorgeous movie two thousand and one 1918 01:50:57.720 --> 01:51:00.600 of Space Odyssey. I love it, but I loved it 1919 01:51:00.640 --> 01:51:02.159 as a kid because it was so weird. I love 1920 01:51:02.199 --> 01:51:06.319 it as an adult because it is so slow paced 1921 01:51:06.640 --> 01:51:09.960 and visually beautiful that you really have to pay attention 1922 01:51:10.039 --> 01:51:12.279 to it. But it also takes you on this amazing journey. 1923 01:51:12.760 --> 01:51:15.680 And it was in nineteen sixty eight. Stanley Kubrick was 1924 01:51:15.720 --> 01:51:21.560 the director, brilliant, strange director. And in this Ai nightmare, 1925 01:51:22.159 --> 01:51:25.079 How nine thousand, which is supposed to be sort of 1926 01:51:25.079 --> 01:51:28.079 how is like the same HL is the same number 1927 01:51:28.199 --> 01:51:31.560 of letters if you add numbers to it, it becomes IBM. 1928 01:51:31.760 --> 01:51:34.000 So that was like a little bit in there. So 1929 01:51:34.039 --> 01:51:37.359 it's basically like, here's the ten thousand version of IBM. 1930 01:51:37.840 --> 01:51:41.319 Is a spaceship's onboard computer the spaceship that's going to 1931 01:51:41.520 --> 01:51:47.239 explore anomaly on another planet, and the computer experiences psychosis 1932 01:51:47.239 --> 01:51:52.239 itself because it decides that preserving the mission is more 1933 01:51:52.239 --> 01:51:56.720 important than preserving human life. And definitely like that's problematic 1934 01:51:56.760 --> 01:51:59.000 because it thinks it's going to discover something. It's like 1935 01:51:59.079 --> 01:52:03.720 really dedicated and how locks crew members out of the ship, 1936 01:52:03.800 --> 01:52:07.640 cuts off their oxygen and kills most of them before 1937 01:52:07.840 --> 01:52:10.079 one of the crew members is able to shut it down. 1938 01:52:10.479 --> 01:52:15.359 And it's really scary. And here delay I mean you 1939 01:52:15.399 --> 01:52:18.079 see the sweat on his brow as he's trying to 1940 01:52:18.159 --> 01:52:21.640 reason with the computer. I mean, like, if you haven't 1941 01:52:21.640 --> 01:52:23.920 seen it, I highly recommend that you see it. And 1942 01:52:23.960 --> 01:52:26.880 then you have like even an even more advanced version 1943 01:52:26.920 --> 01:52:27.880 of the Yeah, but I. 1944 01:52:27.840 --> 01:52:30.880 Just did some math so that the letters how it's 1945 01:52:30.880 --> 01:52:33.319 not that they add up to IBM, they're one letter 1946 01:52:33.920 --> 01:52:38.399 away for it. Yeah, got it? So h al okay, 1947 01:52:38.479 --> 01:52:40.359 all right, thank you. I had to make my brain 1948 01:52:40.399 --> 01:52:43.159 work for a second. Yeah, fast forward to Megan Right 1949 01:52:43.279 --> 01:52:45.640 twenty twenty two, and now there's a sequel, of course, 1950 01:52:45.680 --> 01:52:50.239 the horror thriller, where this lifelike AI doll and all 1951 01:52:50.279 --> 01:52:53.640 of her dancing is programmed to protect a child at 1952 01:52:53.680 --> 01:52:56.239 all costs. But the problem here, of course, is that 1953 01:52:56.279 --> 01:53:00.920 she interprets that very literally, eliminating anyone she sees as 1954 01:53:00.920 --> 01:53:03.640 a threat, whether it's a bully or a neighbor's dog 1955 01:53:04.239 --> 01:53:07.560 or even her creators. Right, that's always what he comes 1956 01:53:07.600 --> 01:53:07.920 back to. 1957 01:53:09.479 --> 01:53:11.640 But there's a part too, So clearly they knew that 1958 01:53:11.640 --> 01:53:14.000 they were going to make a franchise out of this. Look, 1959 01:53:14.000 --> 01:53:17.279 there have been countless others through film and television. Ex 1960 01:53:17.359 --> 01:53:22.600 Makaina's Eva. She manipulates her freedom by betraying her human tester, 1961 01:53:22.720 --> 01:53:25.159 which you kind of want to happen because Oscar Isaac 1962 01:53:25.279 --> 01:53:29.920 is both charming and handsome and gross in this. I mean, 1963 01:53:29.960 --> 01:53:33.079 he's a terrible person, and she's doing exactly what he 1964 01:53:33.159 --> 01:53:37.479 programmed her do, become indistinguishable. But he's also programming her 1965 01:53:37.680 --> 01:53:42.680 exactly what he wanted her to do, become indistinguishable from human, 1966 01:53:42.760 --> 01:53:45.560 and that means humans don't want to be in bondage. 1967 01:53:46.520 --> 01:53:49.680 So you got what you asked for guy, and unfortunately 1968 01:53:49.720 --> 01:53:51.880 there was another person that got hurt there too. And 1969 01:53:51.920 --> 01:53:55.439 then of course the Terminator franchise, you know, launching sky 1970 01:53:55.560 --> 01:53:59.039 Net nuclear war to wipe out humanity. You know, we 1971 01:53:59.119 --> 01:54:02.880 take it all together. These fictional accounts just they're pretty representative, 1972 01:54:03.039 --> 01:54:06.600 even if they've been made decades ago. They represent our 1973 01:54:06.680 --> 01:54:12.079 cultural anxieties about AI and those run deep about someone 1974 01:54:12.199 --> 01:54:15.560 taking over control of us losing control. That is like 1975 01:54:15.600 --> 01:54:19.880 an essence of what horror really is about. But then 1976 01:54:19.920 --> 01:54:22.239 there are also aspects that I think more and more 1977 01:54:22.279 --> 01:54:25.039 people are becoming aware of. How can this be used 1978 01:54:25.119 --> 01:54:30.319 and controlled by a malicious entity to propagate propaganda? Is 1979 01:54:30.359 --> 01:54:34.359 it a tool that is used to harm on a 1980 01:54:34.399 --> 01:54:38.439 massive scale or in ways that we never intended? That's 1981 01:54:38.479 --> 01:54:39.680 a big question, right. 1982 01:54:39.640 --> 01:54:42.920 Oh man, two hours of this. If you are still listening, 1983 01:54:43.399 --> 01:54:48.239 you are writ or die ogs and we're leaving you 1984 01:54:48.279 --> 01:54:52.119 with this. You're welcome. Well, if we should be saying 1985 01:54:52.159 --> 01:54:54.279 thank you, and we will, we didn't want to take 1986 01:54:54.359 --> 01:54:57.079 up time on a full episode to say our goodbyes. 1987 01:54:57.199 --> 01:54:59.439 So you probably noticed that you also have a bonus 1988 01:54:59.439 --> 01:55:03.640 episode two called the Psychology of Goodbye. Yeah, so that's 1989 01:55:03.680 --> 01:55:05.640 a thing I don't even know what to say about it. 1990 01:55:05.640 --> 01:55:07.319 I need Chat GPT to tell me what to say 1991 01:55:07.399 --> 01:55:07.760 right now. 1992 01:55:08.399 --> 01:55:10.600 And the thing that you said about or you shared 1993 01:55:10.600 --> 01:55:14.439 about the father using Chat to do the memorial like 1994 01:55:14.520 --> 01:55:16.560 it's amazing and it's an amazing tool and I have 1995 01:55:16.680 --> 01:55:21.600 used it to help me in many situations. But anyway, folks, 1996 01:55:21.920 --> 01:55:25.600 we do have our goodbye episode separate special. Please go 1997 01:55:25.640 --> 01:55:27.680 listen to that for our final words. It's been a 1998 01:55:27.680 --> 01:55:28.239 great run. 1999 01:55:28.520 --> 01:55:31.560 With that, we will see you next time on La 2000 01:55:32.359 --> 01:55:56.000 Not So Confidential. Bye guys, Bye folks. We sincerely thank 2001 01:55:56.000 --> 01:55:58.159 you for spending some time with us today. LA Not 2002 01:55:58.239 --> 01:56:01.439 So Confidential is part of Alien Entertainment and the crawl 2003 01:56:01.439 --> 01:56:05.640 Space Media Network. Each episode is hosted, produced, and written 2004 01:56:05.720 --> 01:56:09.279 by Doctor Scott and Doctor Shiloh. 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