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Speaker 3: Remaining a live man like this man you letting butterfly
flapping his wing.
Speaker 4: Dig down in a forest, Man, it gonna.
Speaker 3: Cause the tree fall, letting five thousand miles away.
Speaker 4: Man, nobody see, nobody.
Speaker 3: See.
Speaker 4: You don't need to know. Man, you don't the pluck.
Speaker 1: You followed at a little story and.
Speaker 4: You got like like that. Man, Man, don't black a
dang on the panel. Man, Man, you don't matter.
Speaker 3: Man, I know. All right, Arthur, welcome to the Jay
Burton Show. How you doing that?
Speaker 4: Doing good? Thanks for inviting me on.
Speaker 3: Yeah, man, I'm glad to get you on.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 3: You and I have been you know, kind of at
a distance conversing for years now, right. You have a
good substack. Highly recommend it. But it's the uh, you know,
first time we've we've spoken face to face, I guess.
And so you know, if you could, could you show
my audience who you are and what you do.
Speaker 4: Yeah. So I'm a writer based out of California. I'm
originally from Texas and retired military. Still working out here,
as we said earlier, kind of behind enemy lines, and yeah,
just trying to put out you know, good material, good content.
I write on a number of things, not just politics,
you know, things within the culture and what not just
kind of what comes to mind from a right wing perspective.
Of course.
Speaker 3: Well look, I mean you wouldn't be on this show otherwise, right, Yeah, man,
we were we were talking about just before we started
rolling that you know, you're not you're not a native
of California. And I'll be one hundred percent honest, I
very rarely go out to California, and almost always when
I do, I'm in La which I think is a godless,
godless city for any number of reasons. But I'm curious, right,
what sort of the benefits of you know, coming You're
coming in as an outsider, right, imagine that lends you
sort of a unique perspective on the state.
Speaker 4: Yeah, because you know, you see things over here that
are happening within you know, bureaucracy, policy and whatnot. And
before we started, as I told you, been here for
almost twenty years and coming from Texas from the south,
from from a very red area, conservative area, and seeing
these policies, and you ask kind of a native California,
not even somebody who would consider themselves say progressive liberal,
but just somebody you know, living day to day here
and say why is that like that? And I still
get kind of the stock response, even almost two decades later,
of you know, welcome to California. It's almost a bit
of a Stockholm syndrome for many that they've kind of
gotten into this mindset of accepting things as they are.
You know, they see that there's only like five republic
in the state that can hold an office, which you know,
of course Knewsom and the rest of the Democrats are
trying hard to extinguish as much as possible, but for
many others, you almost have this mentality of getting ready
to leave because for the most part, a lot of
people like minded are making their plans pretty much saying
we're moving out of here in the next few years,
or we're going to move out after you know, the
last kid graduates. And for a lot of people, you know,
your producers are just leaving the state. So it's going
to be an interesting dichotomy in the next you know,
ten to fifteen years because people are already leaving. Of course,
you know, we've all seen the memes and the jokes
of U haul having to charge more for people leaving
California because of you know, the high volume of U
hauls being rented, and it's it's sad in a way too,
because when you talk to you know, older Native Californias,
your people within you know, the kind of even within
that boomer era of remembering how the state was, how
when it was the Golden State, and talk about how
they could get a job, you know, on one side
of the street and they didn't like that, they could
just quit that and moved across the street to another job,
and how it was affordable and it was the American
dream and now it's it's just a lot of cope.
I mean, you see it within the videos online of people,
you know, almost mocking the high prices, saying, well I
pay for this, but look at that view and they
show these these images of you know, as you said,
you went to La I don't know if you went
close to the beach, and yes, there are beautiful beaches,
but that is just a tiny subset of the people
who live in California who can just go to the
beach every single day just to walk away or whatnot.
And the ones who do. I mean, it's exorbitant prices,
it's insane. And you still have this imaginary idea of
California as a cultural equality. And I wrote about this
on an essay a while back about how hilarious it was.
It was. It was a roundtable at the New York
Times with I think Jim o'bowie, David French, our favorite
Connie and writer, and I think Tressy Cottam, and Bowie
was explaining how people moved to California so that, you know,
if anything, maybe the prices are a little bit higher,
but you have the cultural equality, people are treated equally.
And I was laughing as I was reading this, And
because California itself is such a balkanized state of cultural
enclaves all over the place, you know, it's so it's
so stratified that there is no there's not equality. You know,
this this imaginary myth of California being this liberal kumbay
a utopia. That's not the case at all, not at all.
The last time I was there was.
Speaker 3: Two years ago, we'll say a year and a half,
and what really struck me is one of the things
that I didn't particularly like about it. There were several
is I didn't really love the feeling of It's sort
of reminded me of like, have you ever been to
like a you know, resort in the Caribbean or something
like that, or it's like you have, you know, the
rich people, and then it just kind of servant class underneath.
And obviously, you know, being in California it's it's largely Hispanic,
but it felt extremely stratified. And look, there's always that
dynamic as at play anywhere, but you know, coming from
the South, the gap is a little narrower, and you
will meet people who do real jobs who are like you,
you know, and they and they maybe you know, there's
a little bit of a class dynamic there, but it
feels as if you know, you know someone, you know
you're within sort of reach of that. You know, maybe
you know your house is a little nicer, your car's
a little nicer, or vice versa. But there isn't this
huge gap. And when I was in California, it's sort of,
you know, it felt like, you know, what you see
out of a place like Brazil. Okay, not quite as extreme,
but very much this kind of is are you know,
walled garden effect where there are you know, nice things
for nice people, and then the kind of servants you know,
skidter around the edge. And that was a dynamic I
didn't particularly enjoy it. You know, maybe this is my
kind of you know, liberal priors, but I don't think
I enjoy servants all that much. And you know, you
see that, of course, and you know these are anecdotals,
anecdotal statements, but you see them nonetheless of you every
time the conversation turns to immigration and you have you know, rich,
you know, liberal women from you know, the Bay Area
or you know, these kind of you know, extremely expensive
cities talking about, well, who will tend to my garden?
You know, who will raise my children without our servants?
And that was something I wasn't quite I guess ready
for the first time. I went, if you see what
I'm getting at there, Arthur.
Speaker 4: Now, I think you put it perfectly when saying different worlds,
because you know, in the South, yes, there's people who
are doing very well, but it's people that you would
still possibly see, you know, at a church function or
you know, public events, and there's a bit more mingling there.
I mean, we talk a lot about you know, the
aristocratic class and whatnot, but there's still they're still mingling
there and within California that that kind of hits it
right on the nose. The different worlds you know, the
people of say del Mar, which is a very very
rich area in southern California, are going to have nothing
to do with whatsoever with someone from say Fred'sno or Stockton.
That's just not going to be in their wheelhouse whatsoever.
And I do have to say that, you know, even
though we're saying a lot of mean things about California,
there's a lot of good here too. There are a
lot of nice, kind of rural areas, polite, friendly areas.
It's a huge state, and so I do kind of
not so much going to the defense for it and
defend it fervently, but I do also point out, you know,
especially to friends and family at home when they ask,
you know, how can you still be out there? And
I said, we all got to understand, you know, La
is La San Fran is San fran And there are
areas that just you know, they live up to their
stereotypes almost to the tea. But then there's other really
nice areas. There's just friendly, polite people here. You know,
it's so big that that is kind of another way
of how people can cope with being here, because it's like, well,
my little bubble here is pretty nice so far. But
there is no there is no cutting to the truth
that the reality is. You know, for regular people, you're
making it or you're not. There's not a happy medium
within there. And it's as you put, kind of you know,
the servant class versus the elite class. And I am
by no means as z Men used to say, you know,
cloud people versus dirt people, by no means up in
the cloud. But I you know, I do have a
little bit of a bird's eye view, but that's only
because of you know, the career and the life choices
I made within you know, going into the military and whatnot.
And so I mean full disclosure, I'm pretty much living
here on about three to four incomes of what you know,
besides what other pe can do, and that is solely
due to my background and choices and whatnot. So if
you're doing well here, then yeah, you can kind of
have this truncated viewpoint of things are fine, things are good.
But you know, if you're just starting out, you know,
that's what I really hammer on, especially about you know,
zoomers in below, the lower generations, the younger generations of
there's not really an opportunity here. The best example, first home,
I bought was back in two thousand and nine, and
I bought it for about one hundred and sixty thousand,
four bedroom, two bath, and I live kind of in
the central part of the state, in rural parts. And
that's still you know, even when I bought that, I
was telling, you know, friends at home and family, and
they're going, that's an insane price. Well, I sold that
home not a while back, and now on Zillo, allegedly
a little four and two starter home that there was
one sixty back in nine is now worth three hundred
and fifty thousand dollars. It is not next to the beach,
it's out of you know, a mountain retreat. It's it
didn't have you know, twenty five to thirty five acres
with it. How are you supposed to expect younger generations
to get starter homes? How are they supposed to get
you know, foreign families. And the rent's just as bad.
Everything's gone up as well. And it's sad to see
a state that was considered a golden state, you know,
just a few decades ago, turning into this. I mean,
right now, forty million people, but the estimates are twenty
five to twenty seven percent are foreign born. So you
have ten million people with no connection whatsoever to this state.
Yet they think it's just going to keep just rolling
along as normal into the future.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there are a couple of interesting things there, you know.
I think of a you know, a friend of mine
who's very, very smart and get a full ride through
law school and got you know, one of those law
jobs in LA right, you know, making what would be
you know, a princely salary, especially straight out of school
anywhere else in the nation. But you know, in order
to be close enough to earn that he's paying I
mean double my mortgage in rent for a studio apartment.
And look, you know, obviously there are always places that
are more expensive to live than others. But you know,
I live in a very normal kind of median you know,
American town, and it's one of those things as well,
where you know, there was sort of a slow trade
off where you know, as as the state got more expensive,
well you could earn more, you know, and so it
was sort of this balancing act. But I think the
problem is is that for many people that's completely and
totally out of whack. Now, you know, the additional compensation
no longer you know, keeps up with the cost of living.
And obviously, you know, this is not a conversation about affordability.
This is not a conversation about you know, you know,
young men trying to advance up the social ladder. But
I do see it as a big problem because, you know,
especially in a state with a massive, you know, massive
welfare system with high taxes, right, you need ideally, you know,
more producers than consumers. Obviously, you know, as we've seen
with the homelessness and other things that, you know, math
has been sort of shifted. But at a certain point,
like if you're both making it very very difficult to
impossible for someone to you know, enter into the economy,
to become a pain contributing member, and also chasing away
you know, your old older excuse me, you know, wealthy people.
It's like, I don't understand how that book balances out.
It seemingly is already not. But at a certain point, right,
that system must give way to entropy.
Speaker 4: Well exactly, And for California itself, how they talk about
the hilarity of saying, well, we could be our own country.
You know, I remember growing up in Texas, we were very,
very proud, you know, It's kind of the old joke,
how do you know if someone is from Texas, they
tell you you don't even have to ask, And growing
up there, there's a big sense of pride of course,
is saying well, Texas could be its own country. Again,
it's it's in our constitution, we have our own power grids.
And I even remember being, you know, as a young man,
teenager asking that question of okay, and then what and
then what happens because of the inter dependency of you know,
economics and just how fragile Western you know, civilization in
itself is, how is that exactly supposed to work? So
it was kind of hilarious how they're they're bringing up
talk again of California, could you know we could just
break away and be our own thing? And I'm thinking, well,
just recently, Newsom wouldn't is not even attending the governor's
meeting with the Secretary of Interior to talk about the
Colorado water crisis, Like he just entirely said I'm not
going and California, I mean, just what's not said is
how fragile things actually are, where they get their power from,
where they get their water from. And it's I just
don't see it as a viable thing, of course, but
it's just troubling at times to hear so many voices
within the public sphere. I mean Tim Waltz himself in Minnesota, Minneapolis,
for example, saying, you know, we're about to have our
Fort Sumter moment, and you're thinking, are you serious, really
you're bringing on the federal power versus state power. It's
and it's very humorous, you know, to a Southerner to
hear these northern states say these things. But at the
same time, it's it's like words do matter, and you
are putting out some a troubling message.
Speaker 3: There, oh one hundred percent, And I think that and
this is I guess what we were supposed to be
talking about. And look we're fifteen minutes in and barely
mentioned it. But talking about, you know, bolkanization, because you know,
oftentimes the sort of the medic version of it is,
you know, the American Civil War two. You know, this
is kind of popular in the two A space, talking
about the boog the boogaloo, right, the joke being, you know,
American Civil War two electric bogloo, a reference to I
think kicking it. I'm not entirely sure on that, but
point is right, it was sort of a joke. But nonetheless,
you know, you hear this come out quite a bit, uh,
people like you know, Tim Poole is constantly talking about
a national civil war. But also you know, in the
UK you've got Mike Bett's I always get it wrong,
it's that's not his name, but it's somewhat like it,
you know, talking about a kind of similar you know,
Balkanization in England, And in my mind I sort of
get where people are coming from. Right, it seems as
if the social fabric is is praying. You have, on
both the right and the left more and more disdain
for federal power. You know, you can look at you know,
Rohn de Santis for any of our criticisms of him
as sort of an uh, sort of an innovator in
that sense. Right during the you know, the Biden years.
You know, Greg Abbott certainly is you know, done similar things.
But also now obviously you know, the whole birth of
the sanctuary state, sanctuary cities, and also this kind of
whole debacle with you know, Ice and you know, these
anti immigration riots. But so I grant that, but at
the same time, that question of well, now what and
also you know what happens between now and then? I
think is a good one. And you wrote, you know,
a short piece, you know, connected to a podcast about
exactly this topic, and so I'd be curious to get
your thoughts Arthur on you know, Balkanization.
Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely, I wrote the piece, you know, pondering the
idea of American Balkanization, because, as you pointed out Tim
Poole as an example, you do have some big, big figures,
big names, not only on on on kind of the
right shere, but the left spear as well. That treated
as if okay, we just split up, we'll just split
it up, make this two to three different nations, and
that'll be kind of as the meme show that that
meme that has the you know, fix everything button, as
if it's some silver bullet solution, and they just stop
right there and no one ever really ponders up, well,
what happens next. I mean, it's just as I said piece,
it's much easier for those who yarn for a breakup
the US to skip the inconvenient details that get in
the way to their idea of based world or on
the other end, of that, you know, opposite version of
some imagined socialist utopia. And in the pod that I
went on with the Wandering Panda, we we kind of
delved into a lot of just the inconvenient oh by
the ways, like hey, what about this, what about the
interdependence of h once again economics? And one thing for
me is how I think the reason that it's become
more and more salient for people to want to just say, okay,
throw your hands up, we can just we'll just split
all this up, because it does sound easy. It does
sound like we'll just go our own way. We'll just
do what we want to do. Let you know, live
our live in our areas, with our traditions, our customs,
and this this will this will work out, just just
easy pasy. And that is just not the case. I mean,
you know, as I pointed out earlier when we were speaking,
California itself forty million people, with over ten million being
foreign born. There is not a California identity here. There
is not there is not something that is kind of
interconnecting everyone here on kind of a single goal or focus.
And you could even look back to I mean the
best example, of course, you know, the American Civil War,
the demographics were different. Virginians were Virginians, Texans were Texans.
Georgian by and large, I'm being very generalized here, but
it was more, there was more more lines there of
this is who we are and in the twenty first
century America, especially since you know the nineteen sixty five
Heart Cellar Act, the Reagan Amnesties. You could go on
and on about the legislation that has made this our
multicultural paradise. Sarcasm, but how is that actually supposed to work?
I mean, you just look at what was that movie?
Civil War came out what twenty twenty four, and I
thought it comical as the way they had split it up.
You know, you had the you had the Western Forces
Texas and California connect together there with each other, the
Florida Alliance was kind of the most of the Deep South.
And then you had the New People's Army, which was
all kind of Pacific Northwest, Montana and whatnot. But at
the same time, when you start delving in and thinking about,
you know, thinking it through the logic of it, I
mean West Coast to Stans sounds great to your average
probably liberal or whatnot, Like, yeah, we can just do
the things we want. But do they They almost seem
to think that, yeah, things will just keep on going
as they go. We can still if we have to
have a little bit of trouble, we can pause Netflix,
go outside for a bit, you know, do some more protests.
Somebody else will do the fighting or any of the
the bad stuff. You know, we won't have to worry
about that. Oh and by the way, that door Dash
will be here in thirty minutes from you know, san deep,
so we got to wait for him. And I just
don't think it's a logical way to look at how
things would actually play out. And we also do Oh sorry.
Speaker 3: Oh no, sorry, just a brief interjection. You ever read
Nick Land?
Speaker 4: Not as much as I should. I know him. I've
read a few of the highlights.
Speaker 3: So Dark Enlightenment. Uh, there's a great chapter in it
called the Cracker Factory. I think it's just hilarious. But
you know, as with a lot of Land, right, it's
equally you know, funny and insightful. And he he makes
this point about the kind of Anglo conflict resolution, which
is basically, you know, you fight it out and then
the loser just moves somewhere else and starts their own thing.
Right once you've lost, it's like all right, well, fair enough,
we'll do we'll do our own. And so that that
idea of you know, secession is sort of deep deep
inside of us, you know, And I mean you see it,
even with the idea of you know, moving from a
blue state to a red state, right like, all right, fine,
you know we lost California, so we're moving to Austin.
You know where we lost Massachusetts, so you know, we're
moving to South Carolina.
Speaker 4: Whatever.
Speaker 3: And there's a couple of problems with that, which is one,
it really depends on there being an entire open frontier,
you know. It depends on there being a new world,
a place where you actually can go out. And look,
let's be honest, it started way earlier than that, right
look at you know, Rhode Island, or you know, a
couple of other early colonies. But I think that one
that depends on, as I've said, a frontier and also
a common cultural understanding that you know, I fine, you know,
if you guys are over there, we'll leave you to
your own. But I think that your conservatives radically misunderstand
the kind of the mind of the progressive because they
would probably be okay with you know, liberalist stand on
the coast and you know it will just leave you
and you can do whatever you do, you know, drag
time brunch and all their drag queen brunch and you know,
all that sort of stuff. But the converse is not true, right,
this is an imperial project for the progressives, like they
want their religion to be, you know, enacted everywhere. It
was part of the reason why you know, you have
these sort of activists, you know, working as you know,
librarians and small town Alabama right putting out you know,
the sort of books that you know parents are rightly
angered by in you know, some tiny little community center
and in the middle of nowhere that no one will
ever look at. And that line that's often kind of
you know, thrown around our circles that you know, the
man who wants to win will always beat the man
who wants to be let alone, I think is entirely correct.
And if you look at different areas in the country
where there's been talk of secession, you know, half of
your state. But also you know this idea of Jefferson
and the Pacific Northwest to kind of break off from
the liberal areas. The progred establishment does not want that
to happen, right, They will not allow it to happen,
because they like ruling over you. They like sort of
rubbing your face in it. And I think that that
sort of reward mechanism is very, very strong and very
much encoded. And for the same reason that you know,
you saw this with the desecration of the Lea statue, right,
kind of ritually scarring its face. I think that's a
large motivator for that sort of politics. Is not only
the you know, being on the winning side, you know,
getting all the patronage, getting all the benefits of being
on the right side of history, but also I want
to ruin your thing.
Speaker 4: It's part of it.
Speaker 3: And I think that it's something that conservatives get wrong,
particularly when discussing Balkanization, because sure it might be like
from a game theory perspective and optimal choice, right, everyone
gets to do what they want on one level. But
part of the motivation for progressive politics is I want
to rub your nose in it, right, I want you
to have to sit through it. And I feel like
that will you know, disallow that as a solution.
Speaker 4: Exactly, and what you just said kind of gets to
the heart of it, because, especially for California, all the
talk of what we could be our own country, and
when that comes up, you have these politicians and activists
that pipe up in the public sphere and act all
proud about how we could do this and do that,
forgetting that. Just a few years ago, believe probably pre COVID,
they got enough signatures on the books to vote to
split the state into three states, and there was a
lot of energy behind it. I signed the petition because
the state is it's too big and you have too
much control, of course, coming from Sacramento and even La
and whatnot. And it got right to the end of
it where magically, you know, the Supreme Court of the
States said no, no, unconstitutional, you can't you can't vote
on this at all. Sorry. So for them to come
back now and talk all this big ideas of we
can just go our own way and we can do
our own thing, it just it's laughable to me, because,
as you exactly point out, no, the progressive mind they
want to rule everything. That's why you see those those
counties and organ that want to join Idaho that's not allowed.
I mean, you've even seen it all throughout our history
that you know, kind of a soft Balkanization or at
least a self separating has been going on throughout American history,
and it gets pushed down pretty much every single time,
and they just they just want to rule it all.
That's that's kind of that is the mindset there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that for you know a lot of
people as well. You know, civil war is sort of
a cope. You hear like my buddy Endeavor talk about it,
but honestly, also funny enough, Elon Muss, because you know,
there's this idea that you know, society will collapse and
my particular you know, pet ideology will rise from the ashes.
Weirdly enough, you see this a lot in kind of
the extreme end of the two A space, right, people
you know, preparing in their minds are actually for some
sort of armed conflict. I'm not saying that, you know,
preparation is bad, obviously, but I think that it functions
as a sort of cope where it's like the idea
that oh, well, things can't get so bad because you know,
people will stand up, they'll realize this is unacceptable and
you know, overthrow it, right, we'll blow up the Death
Star and we can go back to whatever we're going
back to or whatever we're going forward to. And I
think that it in right wing spaces can take up
the same it can take up the same kind of
psychological position that the revolution does, you know, when you
talk to socialists or tankies. And I think that that
sort of clouds a lot of conversation about it because
it sort of becomes it's not a real discussion anymore.
It sort of becomes wish casting, if you see what
I'm getting at.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it turns into we're going to tell stories, now,
this is how this will go, and they don't seem
to kind of once again, and then what like what
happens you declare you're doing this and believing that it's
going to kind of follow the lines of our only
real historical example of the American Civil War of this
state will be this against this state, instead of looking
at it as no, this isn't going to be even
close to how clean you think it would be. This
is we're looking more at a you know, kind of
a Yugoslavian scenario or East to More and that for me,
I think, just on a personal level, it's a retired
military I have traveled the world and was involved in
a number of you know, kind of global hotspots here
and there, not even not even the Middle East stuff,
just the you know stuff like East to more and
within Africa, and how things when it breaks down, it
breaks down. It is it is not clean. Is it's messy.
We're talking you know, urban conflicts, guerrilla war, it's it's
it would be horrific. And that's not to say that
one day we might have to get to that point,
but just the kind of cheering on about how you
can't wait for it, the boogloo, et cetera. I just
find it not not quite troubling, but just a little
inaccurate to to present it as well. If it gets
down to this, as you said, we'll just do this
and uh, you know, hit that easy button fix it all,
And that's not It brings up just a whole other,
a whole other list of problems and things that you
have to solve and things that will be bad for
everyone for who knows how long. I mean, one thing
I talked about on the on that other pod was
let's say the Southwest does their breakup. You know, we
have liberal stand over there? But who's to say that, uh,
you know certain foreign actors. I mean, you have you
already have a movement of the Loraza and everyone saying,
you know, ri on stolen land and this belongs to Mexico. Well,
who's to say in this hypothetical of the breakup that
they don't try to grab it for themselves there? If
you don't have a whole new foreign conflict going on
with that, I mean, not even just to point out,
what is China do? Does Russia take back Alaska because
they have that opportunity there because of discompopulation? Who keeps
running the power plants? What happens with the military bases
all across the US? You know which I think one
movie back in the late nineties Second Civil War, it
was played off as a dark comedy, but it started
off because there was a huge influx of refugees and
Idaho didn't like that. So Idaho, of course, fictionally in
the movie, they nuked part of the US over it.
I don't see that happening exactly, but you just you
have so many unknown unknowns and veritables there that just
would spin out of control before you even had a
chance to get a hold of anything there.
Speaker 3: Well, I think the other the other feature and you
know this is true in both in the conversation in
the UK and here is who would lead such a
conflict because you look at the American Civil War and
it's like, well, really that's just sort of the government
splitting in half. In almost everyone involved a confederacy was
you know, a general or a government official, right, And
you know, I certainly have my critiques of you know,
both you know, Greg Gabbott and Ron De Santis for example,
as well as Gavin Newsom and Tim Walls for fairly
obvious reasons. But I mean, okay, sure you've got Walls
kind of rattling his saber about potentially, you know, calling
in the National Guard to fight off Ice, but like
it didn't happen. And especially, as you've said, in a
country that really doesn't have a unified culture anymore, not
even regionally, but also within those states, it's like, okay,
like California is one quarter foreign boorn. You know, Texas
is becoming more and more that way. Many other states
are as well, and it's like, well, what does that
look like because it's not like you have you know,
a solid culture of people you know who have similar
values or you feel aggrieved in a certain way with
a sort of existing leadership apparatus, And in my mind,
I just without that, I don't see it happening at all. Now,
that's not to say that there won't be increased political violence,
right kind of. I think that low level political violence,
and let's be honest, less and less low level is
in the cards. You know, if if you look at
the kind of trantephotypes, but also just the you know,
the reaction to you know, ice and others like that
is most certainly you know, going to become more and
more of a feature of American life. But you know,
the idea of some kind of you know, rank and
file in a military conflict in that way, I see
as just completely and totally unrealistic.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, in my opinion, I just continue to
see kind of a semi soft balkanization against the laws.
And that'll continue on. I mean we're already there. You
have the quote unquote sanctuary cities not only in California
but Colorado of Minneapolis, where they practically disregard you know,
the federal laws entirely in the state I'm in now,
I believe the last estimate, we were going to spend
twelve to fourteen billion dollars this year on healthcare for
documented immigrants illegals. That is entirely against the law, Yet
it happens the driver's license, and it's almost Someone pointed
out how the issue of immigration legal and illegal is
kind of our twenty first century issue of slavery. You know,
there is no there's no compromise to it anymore. There's
been so many compromises historically throughout the years, you know,
the joke of well, they just need to pass the legislation.
You know, there's just not been comprehensive immigration reform. And
as a student of history, especially being kind of you
know the political junk, yeah, been for forever. You look
through just from nineteen twenty four till now, there's pretty
much been some form of immigration legislation done every single year.
There's over one hundred plus bills that have gone through,
you know, just not even just the high the big
ones that we know of, like you know, Reagan Amnesty
of eighty six. There was you know, the Immigration Law
of nineteen ninety. There was immigration laws passed in the
two thousands all to continue bringing more and more people
in to make this the you know, multicultural utopia that
we see now, and I don't know, I mean, just
as you point out specifically with there's not that true
American identity. I've written on this before several times on
how you go in you know, say you go into
your gas station, you buy your monster, you buy some zen,
and the bluetooth American behind the counter talking to his homeland.
He has no connections to the community whatsoever. He's here
because it's better. That's pretty much it. It's a better situation.
And so this idea of a full on American Balkanization,
different separate states and nations, that that brings up wild
cards all over the place. Because of course we're not
going to have the federal large s of e b T.
You're not going to be you're not going to have
people getting their their their their money for Section eight.
All those things would have to stop, they would not
continue rolling along, and you know, that just brings up
even more scenarios of you know, potential violence. People aren't
just going to politely protest in front of their city
hall because their money card doesn't work anymore and they
can't get groceries, and so it just it brings you
into all these other avenue areas of how bad it
would truly be. Now, many, of course, I believe, would
would just go home because a lot of it is
simply because it's here and it's available. But many others
would would have such a feel of feeling of entitlement
to it that no, you owe this to us, that
it just it would spiral into more of violence.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think that that really is it the
core of you know, many of our questions, which is
quite simply like what is America?
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 3: Like what what are we doing here? Because you know,
if it simply is this kind of like global strip
mall where you know, you you go to, you know,
apply your goods and services, you know, leave, you know,
with kind of a net contribution you know, to your family,
to you know, your bank account or whatever's that's a
very different thing than actually, you know, being a country.
And again I think one of the problems of this
whole Civil War narrative is that like even the nominal
right in America, like sure, they may disagree with certain
aspects of you know, mass migration, although you know, as
we've seen in Texas, Uh, maybe not to the degree
we'd hope the problem is ultimately, right, like they they
share the same grain grand vision as the progressive left.
You know, you see this every time they who holler
about the democrats of the real racists or any number
of these things. Like, ultimately they have the same vision.
They simply view their role as you know, Buckley said
to you know, stand destride the train of progress and
y'll stop. And not only is that wrong, right, that
that's not a correct view of things, but is that
really enough to motivate people to fight, right, to motivate
people to put their life on the line for what?
And look, man, you know you have more experience in
this than I do. And I'm not going to pretend
that you know, every guy who's you know, sitting in
Iraq and five is there for you know, some great
patriotic reason or you know, having this kind of grand
view of politics. But I think we already see, you know,
how cowardly in the conservatives are, right, how unwilling they
are to do things that would result even in a
financial or social hit. Right, just look at how much
they freak out about being called you know, any one
of the you know, the kind of great progressive slurs,
and so I don't see those people as being willing
to put their life on the line, right, because you've
shown me in the little things. I think about this
a lot. And I've told this anecdote before about kind
of growing up during the you know, global War on
Terror in you know, kind of a conservative evangelical setting
where you know, Islam was the big, big bad and
you know, people telling kind of horror stories about you know,
Muslims coming in and you know, gunning down people in
church or a second nine to eleven, and there were
you know, there's a lot of bravado around like, oh,
you know, you may be forced to be martyred for
your faith, right, they might cut your head off with
a you know, rusty machete, and sure, that may happen.
But when someone and many of the same people say that,
you know like, oh, I would go to my death
rather than you know, compromise my morals, and then ten
years later, you know they're they're absolutely terrified of you know,
violating COVID restrictions or doing something you know, relatively minor,
right like no one got their head chopped off, or
refusing to wear a mask but it is an indication like, Okay,
you actually don't believe that that much, right, you think
that you are making an idol boast. You don't think
you're ever going to be called on it. And so
when you see that sort of behavior, it's like, okay, well,
like where's the Civil War guys going to come from? Right?
Like where are the guys who get you know, turned
into you know, chef boyardy, you know, like because I
don't see those guys and I'm sure they exist, right,
you know, I'm not trying to, you know, insult America.
It's the country I love, but like many of the
people talking about the Civil War to me seem to
be very that to be blunt beat, very soft.
Speaker 4: Well, it's like what you said earlier about let's say
in hypothetical that this is going to kick off who leads.
I mean, dude, it's not going to be a Newsome
or Tim Waltz. It's going to be leading the progressive charge.
I mean, I made a postal all back about after
Waltz did is Fort Sunder thing like people going, all right,
we're fighting, where's General Waltz? What do you mean he's
in China? I mean you would have people fleeing away
from this stuff, and the same thing on the right,
we're not going to have, you know, for all, for
all the things about Donald Trump and what's going on. Now,
my viewpoint is when he does things I like, I'm happy.
When he does things I don't like, I'm not happy.
But I'm under no illusions that Trump is you know,
we won. Everything is winning now, this this, this is,
this is generational. This is going to take a while
to fix to get to where we want to be.
But Trump winning. I was happy that he won, you know,
Trump two point zero, but really it really just kind
of put us at halftime in this game. You know,
you got time to go to the concession stand, you
have time, you have time to prepare for more, and
it doesn't put us into the fourth quarter scenario. But
I think too many thought like, okay, well we went
to the ballot box, we voted, and now we just
sit back and wait for the wins. Yet at the
same time, when things start getting done that our side wants,
all it takes is a couple of unfortunate incidents to happen,
and it seems many just just lose lose all of
their well lose all their their their fortitude for it.
You know, it really feels more of a platitude versus convictions,
Like did you really think that things such as you know,
mass deportations, it was going to be pretty Did you
think the New York Times was going to be writing
nice little ride ups and diet tribes about you know,
the will of the voters is happening. No, it's it's
going to be ugly. And we're still utilizing the processes
and systems of democracy that we have, that the institutions,
And if you can't stand for that, I really find
it doubtful when they start talking about, well, we'll just
we'll just fight for our own little spot here and
live how we want it, Like, well, you can't even
stand up for what's going on now to try to
fix things, but you think the extreme fix is what
you're going to do, Like, how does that work out?
I've never kind of you can't really understand what then
they can't explain how you think the maximum option will
work versus all of these things are aready being done
now that you're queasy about.
Speaker 3: Now, I will say one of the things that I
will be kind of interested to watch is what we were
talking about earlier, which is the kind of soft secession. Right,
so for instance, you know we've talked about you know,
sanctuary cities where they just decide, you know, their rules
do not apply to us. I mean, it is technically
possible for that situation to be rectified. Island will it.
I'm skeptical we will see that anytime soon. But also
right like you know, during the Biden had men, there
were certain moves made by you know, aspiring Republican governors.
And look again, like I don't love the Republican Party,
I'm just using that as a stand in. But one
of the things that I have genuinely thought about before,
which is that that same sort of you know, financial
entropy we were talking about in California, it ect the
nation as a whole. And you know, effectively, if you're
you know, you're on the periphery. You know, you're you're
part of America, you're a governor, you're someone powerful. What
does the calculus look like for you if the government
goons aren't getting paid, they're not getting paid regularly, so like, yeah,
sure you're still part of America, but you're there's a
possibility to be a de facto sovereign in a way
you can't currently be in the in the system. And
so I almost wonder if we're going to get this
sort of you know, like de facto federalism where you know,
as this thing sort of starts to fray more and
more at the edges, you know, you will have people saying, oh,
of course, you know, I'm I'm you know, an American governor,
I'm a you know, a leader of x y Z.
But if the enforcement isn't there to make it, to
make it actual, to to really enforce to you know,
bring people into line, it seems that the incentives will
lead one way, and especially as and I've been kind
of disappointed by this. So this may be, you know,
a faulty premise, but as it becomes more as politics
becomes more and more existential, right where you know, if
you are you know, the leader of x y Z state,
you know, if if you comply with the demands of
the federal government, you won't get to be you know,
a rich, powerful, corrupt politician anymore. But if you you know,
set yourself up in such a way that you can
basically tell them to go pound sand or say, of course,
I'm doing whatever you want and just not do it.
I'm interested to see how that develops as sort of
the empire comes into decline. A little bit vague there, Arthur,
But do you think there's anything to that?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think at the end of the day, for
buying and large, for the most part, politicians are just politicians.
You know, they're playing their roles. One thing that always
strikes me as kind of funny is after, you know,
Kamala Harris, Peace be upon her, after she after she
lost this last time around, there was a group call
at kind of one of the main campaign centers, like
kind of the the brains of the operation there, and
there was a ton of interns and really you know,
young women there and a lot of people that worked
on the campaign, and they were ready to listen to her,
and she said, how you know, too bad. I mean,
we'll get them next time. Better luck next time. And
these people they were crushed because they're going, well, wait
a minute, wait a minute, we were fighting against fascism.
We just lost. Fascism is going to take over America.
The curtain has fallen. And they couldn't understand, at least
in my opinion, that she's a politician. She was propped
up there, and a lot of these things that were
set up on the on the pedestals, within the debates.
This is all political, k Fae, you really took this seriously.
You thought that you were, you know, fighting this almost
you know, Star Wars version of politics. You were fighting
against the evil empire. This is politics. This is what's
going on. And so what I see is that, you know,
you have a lot of these and rising stars that
they don't seem to realize at times that their words
are taken seriously by a lot of people. I mean,
look at Minneapolis right now, Los Angeles for the most part.
You know Karen Bass, you know, in an empty suit there,
but you know, she say two things and people take
it as gospel, when in actuality, they're all just trying
to you know, protect their little fifdoms, their little political fiftoms,
their their schemes and whatnot. And not to go in
a tangent on Minneapolis, but I really think the reason
we're seeing such a response there to just immigration enforcement
is due to the democratic money machine there, the grift
going on. Because I'm under no illusions that Somalians were
the masterminds behind a lot of these schemes, you know,
the quality leering centers and whatnot. Now that that money
is getting funneled back to Act Blue and other democratic
organizations and financial instruments. So that's why there's a push
back there because to the Democratic Party this you know,
it's this whole thing of immigration. It does come down
to their political lives. So the rhetoric I think will
continue to be upped, It'll continue to be over the
top a bit, but you know, at the end of
the day, it's it's politics and power. I don't see
them as really wanting to lead the charge to say, okay,
now we're making the new as you said earlier, the
you know, liberals stand here. It's it's a lot of
dangerous rhetoric, but still rhetoric.
Speaker 3: Nonetheless, Well and also it's like why would they They're winning,
you know, like that they're winning the game, so why
would they feel the need to you know, take that
that path of the defeat, right to go start their
own Like they are in charge of the most powerful
empire in the world. Why not you know, there's no
incentive for them to do that. And you know, you
hear the kind of federalism invoked by the left any
time a Republican is in office, and that's very cynical
and very tactical, you know. Obviously, I don't believe it
in much the same way that you know, every libtard
in the world was a big fan of the Second Amendment,
uh the moment that that Alex pretty guy got shot,
and then you know, four days later, every single one
of those people is you know, celebrating you know, gun
control bills in you know, state like Virginia, And I
think that that's you know, important as well when we
talk about this that so much of this is just
pure you know, rhetoric and posturing. But on that point
of you know, politicians not necessarily realizing you know, how
people you know take their words, I think there's some
of it. I think also there's another part where they
entirely realize how people are going to take their words,
you know, and want that to happen.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: I think all that this is very much I think
it's Mahler's point that or maybe it's Woes I can't
remember which. You know, that the dosing is effectively like
a violation of the fifth comment fifth Commandment because you
were you know, incentivizing someone to you know, or this guy.
But I think that you know, and this is what
we've seen with a lot of like the anti ice violence,
you know, as well as the kind of you know,
failed Trump assassins, the you know, the guy who who
shot Charlie Kirk, And just by saying that, I know
I've sent one particular guy in particular into a sputtering,
apopleptic rage, but I will keep doing it. The guy
who shot Charlie Kirk exactly as CNN said it happened.
But in all seriousness, right, in each one of those instances,
you see someone who has basically sort of od eat
on the internet. You know, they're they're you know, maybe
naturally little unstable. There's drugs, their social isolation, weird you know,
sex stuff, and then also this like insane pressure cooker
and you know, you you tell your liberal at like, oh,
democracy is in danger, and she you know might get
a little you know, worried about it, but you know
she's unlikely to you know, pick up you know, Papa's
hunting rifle and you know, decide to make a statement,
but like like some benzo addicted loser, you know, gooning
to you know fur reporn on the internet, you know,
with this trans girlfriend who's you know, in some kind
of small micro internet community where that's all he does
all day, you know, is listen to people say like, oh,
they're going to genocide us, they're going to put us
in train cars, they're going to you know, do all
of that stuff, especially when it's coming from you know,
large politicians, right, you know, Joe Biden, Barack Obama saying
things about you know, get out in the streets, protest, protest, protest.
It's like, well, where do you think that's going to go.
And I think that that is a solution, not a
problem from any of these politicians, because again, you know,
they are in charge, and so in these sort of
extra judicial violences is useful for them in a way
that you know, what happened on January sixth, or you know,
you know ranchest like Bundy whatever, are not And I
think that's a relevant relevant factors well in this analysis, Arthur.
Speaker 4: Yeah, were in clarification. I'm not saying that every politician,
but when they're talking that, they're just like the innocent
babes in the wilderness, not understanding their words. So there's
definitely you know, stochastic political rhetoric being put out there
because they know that as you want out that one
guy in his basement is gonna sit, you know, sit
there and say he's talking to me, he wants me
to do something. I mean then, but they know that
people are listening to that, they're fully understood on that.
That's h and we have plenty of ins and it's
showing how things are going because even though just the
ones that make it into the news, there's others that
don't make it into the news. You know, the guy
picked up with this that and the other booked in
a jail, but he doesn't make it onto If it
doesn't make it onto the magical TV for you know,
ABC News, well then it doesn't happen, you know, kind
of that that boomer vision of well I didn't see
this on NBC tonight, so it didn't happen. And you're like, well, no,
maybe you didn't see it, but you're kind of forgetting
the cardinal rule that the greatest power of the media
is the power to ignore. There are things going on
that you do not see or they don't want you
to see. At the same time, but I don't you know,
I don't have the crystal ball. I don't exactly see
where this goes. I can only follow it way too
closely as many of us do, and kind of see
the calculations on what could happen here or there. But it's, uh,
it's it's going to get worse before it gets better.
I mean, that's that's an easy thing to say, for sure.
Speaker 3: So Arthur, we're fast coming up on time. This is
a fun discussion. But where can people find you and
where can they read your work?
Speaker 4: Ah? Yes, I have a substack account's Arthur and Kelly's thoughts.
I write on a number of things, mostly politics, but
also I do some reviews and introspection on movies and
culture and everything else. I try to keep it varied.
And then I'm also on x at Arthur Returns with
two s's where I post way too much on this stuff.
Speaker 3: But thank you again for invite me on. It's a
great conversation, a ton of fun. We'll have you back
on some time. Your your steps Stack is criminally underread.
I don't spend a ton of time on the platform,
highly addictive, but I try to catch your articles when
they come out. I think they're worth everyone's time, so
I'll be sure to link that. As far as my stuff,
The Jay Burdon Show, Apple, Spotify, YouTube, anywhere you listen
to podcasts. If you want to support me, you will
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Speaker 3: It's probably the best I got again. Arthur is a
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keep your head up. I can't last forever.
Speaker 4: Good night, Hm,