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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to Redefining Energy.

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<v Speaker 2>You're co hosts from Berlin Gerard Read and from London

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<v Speaker 2>Laurent Saga.

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<v Speaker 3>But y'all mayor Christmas, you too, my friend. Last episode

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<v Speaker 3>of the year, So we're gonna wrap up everything we've seen,

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<v Speaker 3>everything we were right about, everything was wrong about.

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<v Speaker 2>The Crazier, my friend, it was a crazier.

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<v Speaker 3>Now when you come to the podcast for twenty four

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<v Speaker 3>we're gonna have six hundred thousand downloads, which is up

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<v Speaker 3>twenty seven percent. You're on your We won the Leading

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<v Speaker 3>Voice Award in energyent Communities by City Tech not no

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<v Speaker 3>City Tech, but you know, was great to have an.

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<v Speaker 2>Award, Absolutely brilliant.

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<v Speaker 3>What was the most downloaded episode of the year, Child Gates, Yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>Bill Gates already episode three and then the on PPA

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<v Speaker 3>always very popular.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean such a technical topic as well, it's interesting.

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<v Speaker 3>Right, okay, Yeah, so we do another one in February

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<v Speaker 3>and then Google so anything around AI that aren't a

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<v Speaker 3>lot of interest.

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<v Speaker 2>The top the real big topics of the year, right.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, batteries. All the batteries episode also were very popular.

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<v Speaker 3>The most commented was the one we did the last

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<v Speaker 3>months on Nossholt, which went crazy. We can see what

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<v Speaker 3>the wind blows, whereas everything around any division Z or

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<v Speaker 3>climate nobody's interested anymore.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's funny. It's one of the conclusions I get

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<v Speaker 2>out of twenty twenty four is this transition now is

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<v Speaker 2>all about economics, now politics. It's not about climate change anymore,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, totally.

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<v Speaker 3>We used to talk about the famous traffecta security, affordability

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<v Speaker 3>and clean This is not the case anymore. Now it's okay,

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<v Speaker 3>security first, but then there's growth and for the first

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<v Speaker 3>time there is growth in the US, not in Europe.

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<v Speaker 3>And I have a quote from a very brilliant girl

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<v Speaker 3>called Chris Seiple, is the head of power at the

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<v Speaker 3>Woodmark and he said, this year a seventiear trend of

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<v Speaker 3>declining share of electricity to GDP has been reversed.

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<v Speaker 2>And let me add to that as well, it's also

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<v Speaker 2>the first year really in over a decade where maybe

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<v Speaker 2>even fifteen years, we're in the Western world we're actually

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<v Speaker 2>saying electricity demand beginning to go up as opposed to down,

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<v Speaker 2>and actually that's going to continue to go forward. Right.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, we talk about data centers. There are about five

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<v Speaker 3>thousand data centers in the US, and if you take

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<v Speaker 3>Germany pers UK Press, they are not even two thousand.

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<v Speaker 3>America is on fire and Europe is on zenas.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not going to disagree with you, by Fred, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>not going to disagree with you because my sort of

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<v Speaker 2>reflections on the air is just I just think Europe

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<v Speaker 2>as sleeping. That's in every way just sleeping.

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<v Speaker 3>You need a ted ex Bolin which was really brilliant

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<v Speaker 3>because I am totally incapable of talking in front of

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<v Speaker 3>a live audience.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I had a lot of fun, I must have met.

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<v Speaker 2>It was the first time I've ever done it, and

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<v Speaker 2>it's amazing. Really, You when you do something like that,

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<v Speaker 2>you just reach a different target audience important, right, we

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<v Speaker 2>need to This transition that we're going through is not easy,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's part of what we're doing is educating people, right,

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<v Speaker 2>and so we want to educate as many people as

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<v Speaker 2>we can.

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<v Speaker 3>Your thesis, which we've been talking NonStop on this podcast

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<v Speaker 3>is the four driver of the energy revolution no transition,

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<v Speaker 3>solar batteries, semiconductors, and China.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I've changed the word semiconductors to energy

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<v Speaker 2>intelligence at this point. More than that. Yeah, sorry, and

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<v Speaker 2>the other thing I think you've just said. What you

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<v Speaker 2>just said was China. I mean, this is two thousand

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<v Speaker 2>and twenty fours the year of China. When it comes

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<v Speaker 2>to energy, they dominate the production of all these energy

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<v Speaker 2>technologies we talk about, but also they're installing them, not

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<v Speaker 2>just exporting them. They're going and install them in their

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<v Speaker 2>own country. Right. The biggest market ev is, biggest market

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<v Speaker 2>for solder, biggest mark of for wind. They're shown the way.

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<v Speaker 3>Forward and you start seeing it in the numbers because

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<v Speaker 3>following an expert, respectator John Kemp, he says that China

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<v Speaker 3>will import less oil in two twenty four than tour

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<v Speaker 3>twenty three.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, oh yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>And that's not debatable, you know, it's not a percentage

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<v Speaker 3>of the growth of this all that, it's simply they're

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<v Speaker 3>going to import less oil.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>Other interesting figures a lot coming from that. India consumes

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<v Speaker 3>more cold than the US plus the EU.

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<v Speaker 2>Well there's the biggest country in the world in terms

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<v Speaker 2>of population, so there's no surprise, you know, the they

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<v Speaker 2>all want to be at the same living standards that

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<v Speaker 2>we do. So yeah, they're going to consume energy energy energy.

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<v Speaker 3>For the next years, US electric fleet consumes more power

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<v Speaker 3>than US electric trains. Okay, interesting, huh interesting. Okay, So

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<v Speaker 3>now I've got a list of influencers, so I just

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<v Speaker 3>want to name them because these are the people I follow,

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<v Speaker 3>and whether it's on LinkedIn, whether it's on X or

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<v Speaker 3>now you've got blue Sky, which I think is a

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<v Speaker 3>is a bit of a subper version of X. But

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<v Speaker 3>did you open your account on Blue Sky or not?

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<v Speaker 2>No? I didn't know.

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<v Speaker 3>Well whatever, Okay, So for EV's James Scouter, Tom Zug Malcot,

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<v Speaker 3>June Kyle Chan, Roger at King Sky, Kent Felix Summer.

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<v Speaker 3>If you just follow those guys, you know everything that's

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<v Speaker 3>happening in EV's Solar. It's always gingy chase, but I

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<v Speaker 3>mean Solar. I mean, you wonder if you need to

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<v Speaker 3>follow it. It's crazy.

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<v Speaker 2>We just keeps growing, of course, keep falling. Yeah, it's simple.

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<v Speaker 3>The growth of the batteries. But we supply chain. We

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<v Speaker 3>have some very good guys we're following. Aaron Wait, Carma Cole,

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<v Speaker 3>Chris Berry, Matt Firmley, Simon Moore's Jeloy. When it comes

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<v Speaker 3>to Litia Press of lithium this year ten thousand a ton.

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<v Speaker 3>It's flat production going up, a lot of discussion around

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<v Speaker 3>Palmer market, around capture prices, great source and burne er

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<v Speaker 3>g Dave Jones, Stephen Woodhouse on Earth, Vigan, everything that's

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<v Speaker 3>around PPAs picks up Park, everything that's around batteries is model.

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<v Speaker 2>Great people out there that actually we can follow. And

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<v Speaker 2>obviously listen, Well we haven't talked about Lauren. I like

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<v Speaker 2>to talk about is hydrogen and hydrogen. Listen, We've got

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<v Speaker 2>Paul Martin, Tom Baxter, people like that that we that

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<v Speaker 2>we follow very closely. Yeah, But anyway, and he comments

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<v Speaker 2>on twenty twenty four and hydrogen.

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<v Speaker 3>But hydrogen beats the record of a project announcer never

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<v Speaker 3>delivered because it's just too expensive. The current state of

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<v Speaker 3>hydrogen affairs look like this. Electoralizers that do not exist

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<v Speaker 3>are supposed to use excess electricity that does not exist

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<v Speaker 3>to feed hydrogen into a greed that does not exist

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<v Speaker 3>in order to power plants that do not exist. Alternatively,

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<v Speaker 3>hydrogen is supposed to be transported via ships and port

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<v Speaker 3>that do not exist for suppliers country that you guess

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<v Speaker 3>it also do not exist, you know Zeidler. Oh my god.

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<v Speaker 3>And despite that, and I want to pass the clip

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<v Speaker 3>there is a guy in Germany, the CEO of BMW,

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<v Speaker 3>who still thinks hydrogen at the future. Let's listen to

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<v Speaker 3>the clip.

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<v Speaker 1>In our industry, timing is crucial. Pioneered the technology together

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<v Speaker 1>with the right partness, and we have brought it to

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<v Speaker 1>the road. Now it's time to unleash the full potential

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<v Speaker 1>of hydrogen. A mildestone in automotive history. We are announcing

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<v Speaker 1>the first ever serious production fuel cell electric vehicle to

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<v Speaker 1>be offered by a global Bremium manufacturer, powered by hydrogen.

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<v Speaker 1>It will underscore how technological brokess is shaping future mobility.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh God, but I don't want to give any comments

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<v Speaker 3>on hydrogen. Let's listen to a ne expert. You're gonna

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<v Speaker 3>find out very quickly who he is.

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<v Speaker 4>We're gonna have hybrids, We're gonna have gasoline propelled cars,

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<v Speaker 4>We're not gonna have hydrogen cars. You know, hydrogen cars

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<v Speaker 4>is the new thing, right you know about that? Hydrogen

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<v Speaker 4>is the new car. They say it's great. Has one problem.

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<v Speaker 4>If it explodes, you dead. If it explodes, they actually say,

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<v Speaker 4>if it is you're unrecognizable. You call your wife over.

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<v Speaker 2>They call up the wife.

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<v Speaker 4>Would you please come here and take a look and

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<v Speaker 4>see whether or not this is your husband, because we

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<v Speaker 4>cannot see. And she goes to the nearest tree, which

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<v Speaker 4>is about one hundred yards away, and she says, it's

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<v Speaker 4>only blood. There's nothing there since I can't tell. So

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<v Speaker 4>hydrogen has one problem. It's extraordinarily dangerous. Other than that,

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<v Speaker 4>the car works quite well.

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<v Speaker 5>Actually, well, let's return to good news, because one thing

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<v Speaker 5>I think is very important laur On is the entrepreneurs

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<v Speaker 5>in this space.

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<v Speaker 2>And actually, if I look back in our podcast, we've

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<v Speaker 2>had We've had a few really successful ones and some

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<v Speaker 2>that haven't been so successful. But it's really important to

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<v Speaker 2>have this innovation in there. So if you were looking

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<v Speaker 2>at the entrepreneurs in our space, you would just say

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<v Speaker 2>you look up.

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<v Speaker 3>To well, look the one who came on the show,

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<v Speaker 3>and that the most narration for Greg Jackson, David Sky's book,

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<v Speaker 3>Sheldon Kimber, all of them have developed a huge, huge

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<v Speaker 3>capacity innovation, created billion dollar company. I'm really privileged to

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<v Speaker 3>be able to do this podcast so we can interact

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<v Speaker 3>with those people.

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<v Speaker 2>And just see people you know. Greg Jackson is the

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<v Speaker 2>CEO founder of Octopus Energy. David Squay's Brook is the

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<v Speaker 2>CEO founder of Quinn book, which is very interesting asset management.

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<v Speaker 2>And then Sheldon Camber is the CEO of really really

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<v Speaker 2>interesting ask developer, you know.

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<v Speaker 3>Your intersect power. He just signed a gigantic deal with Google.

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<v Speaker 2>Can I ask you, what have you read this year

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<v Speaker 2>that you've enjoyed?

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, so we have our books of the years. There

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<v Speaker 3>are six that caught my eyes so well. Richard Black,

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<v Speaker 3>The Future of Energy, Our Vulnerable Energy Future by Dougarrant,

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<v Speaker 3>hash cut Ratti, The Climate Capitalism Super Great Super Solutions

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<v Speaker 3>that's from Idioconostic and Edition, The Coming Wave from Mustafa Suleiman,

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<v Speaker 3>and finally Jimmy Chase Solar Finance without the jargon. All

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<v Speaker 3>these books are of course around the energy, about the

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<v Speaker 3>energy revolution, except the Coming Wave. You want to say

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<v Speaker 3>something about it, I'm.

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<v Speaker 2>Gonna say my favorite one was The Coming Wave from

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<v Speaker 2>Mustafa Sulimon. And this is on AI and what AI

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<v Speaker 2>is going to have in terms.

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<v Speaker 3>Of impact on the world.

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<v Speaker 2>And I say that also because AI is going to

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<v Speaker 2>have a huge impact on the energy space as well.

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<v Speaker 2>Obviously we need data centers, etcetera, etcetera. And I think

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<v Speaker 2>it's really critical that whether they are Google, Microsoft or

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<v Speaker 2>whoever it is you need to be part of the solution,

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<v Speaker 2>and we need to get them really involved, much more

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<v Speaker 2>involved in the energy transition than they have been up

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<v Speaker 2>to now. So anyway, I thought that book was great

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<v Speaker 2>for those of you who don't know who he is.

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<v Speaker 2>He is a very interesting London born entrepreneur who ended up,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, his business being bought. It was booked by Google,

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't it, deep minds. Yeah, so very interesting, very interesting.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, So to kind of finish off my echo of

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<v Speaker 3>the years, Kiril Buddhadov. Why but you know he is.

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<v Speaker 3>He's the head of the Ukrainian g u R and

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<v Speaker 3>he's the guy who blew up all the Russian refineries,

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<v Speaker 3>doing more for fighting Clemagin than anybody else.

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<v Speaker 2>Under On one other topic that sort of came, I've

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<v Speaker 2>changed my view in and around environmentalists, and don't forget

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<v Speaker 2>I am actually an environmentalist deep down, but I think

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<v Speaker 2>the approach of many environmentalists is too extreme at this

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<v Speaker 2>point in time. What I mean by that is the

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<v Speaker 2>world is not black and white, it's gray, and we

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<v Speaker 2>need to move forward quickly. But a lot of environmental

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<v Speaker 2>movement is actually stopping change happening. Right, And I was

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<v Speaker 2>looking recently at just the whole area of data centers,

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<v Speaker 2>and you've had, sorry, Friends of the Earth come out

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<v Speaker 2>and I'm talking about a report they did in Ireland

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<v Speaker 2>where they come out and basically say, hey, listen, forget

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<v Speaker 2>about this AI data center stuff because the end of

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<v Speaker 2>the day, we won't be able to hit our climate goals.

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<v Speaker 2>The world is not black and white. AI is so

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<v Speaker 2>important that I think you have to rethink. So you know,

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<v Speaker 2>give loads of examples, but one, for example is let's

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<v Speaker 2>say the Tesla factory outside Berlin, which has been You've

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<v Speaker 2>had people basically living in the forest there preventing the

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<v Speaker 2>cutting down of trees there, and they've been doing this

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<v Speaker 2>for the last two and a half years. And I

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<v Speaker 2>sort of look at that and got I'm sorry. You've

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<v Speaker 2>got a company here that is actually, in terms of

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<v Speaker 2>impact on carbon emissions worldwide, they will have a greater

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<v Speaker 2>impact for the positive world than anything else than any

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<v Speaker 2>other company across the world because they pushed the electrification

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<v Speaker 2>of the automobile, etcetera, etcetera. And so that's me the

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<v Speaker 2>bigger picture, and it's the world is not black and white.

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<v Speaker 2>And as I said, i'd I don't believe that black

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<v Speaker 2>and white is really helpless, and I think perfectly in

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<v Speaker 2>the European perspective, but also in the US, this black

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<v Speaker 2>white approach means that a lot of people they just

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<v Speaker 2>become anti climate change really, which is not helpful for

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<v Speaker 2>any pot The.

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<v Speaker 3>Problem of enviamentalist is they surfer from what I call

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<v Speaker 3>the niavana fallaci, which is, if it's not one hundred

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<v Speaker 3>percent perfect, let's not do it. So they talk about

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<v Speaker 3>the mining impact and stuff like that. They don't see

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<v Speaker 3>that if you take green Bush, which is the biggest

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<v Speaker 3>mine for lithium in the world. So they talk about

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<v Speaker 3>the abomination of green Bush in Australia, but from a

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<v Speaker 3>surface perspective, it's only one third of one coal mine

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<v Speaker 3>for one power plant. Get very emotional. They have no

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<v Speaker 3>idea of the orders of magnitude. We're talking about too

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<v Speaker 3>much emotion.

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<v Speaker 2>That's a good way problem. Too much emotion, and actually

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<v Speaker 2>we need to get practical. That's what we need to do, right, Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>else you'd say about two thousand.

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<v Speaker 3>Dolly, Well, look twenty twenty four. If you want to

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<v Speaker 3>summarize up what has been going up, relentless grows of

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<v Speaker 3>solar explosion of batteries, eves, despite it in the media

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<v Speaker 3>as the EV is going down now the even's still

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<v Speaker 3>going up, but has been also the extraordinary rise of

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<v Speaker 3>gas turbines everywhere. I mean, if you look at the

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<v Speaker 3>shares of GVA and over Simon's Energy, it's fantastic. Every

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<v Speaker 3>time I meet young people, I see their enthusiasm, their innovation,

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<v Speaker 3>the new take digital This is fantastic. Now I am begging, begging,

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<v Speaker 3>begging Europe to deregulate, I mean too creatures the bonfire

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<v Speaker 3>of all those regulations that are just hampering the progress,

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<v Speaker 3>because that's what's happening in the US, and I'm not

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<v Speaker 3>even talking about China. These are my ups.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh god. Actually, that's a very, very, very good point.

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<v Speaker 2>I agree with your Tolkien. Europe is totally over regulated,

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<v Speaker 2>and really we set it up around because at the

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<v Speaker 2>end of the day, we've set up a European Commission

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<v Speaker 2>that has one job and that as the regular right,

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<v Speaker 2>and they have the more the more they regulate, the

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<v Speaker 2>more power they have. So this is a pretty crazy situation.

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<v Speaker 2>We put ourselves into it, and it's not helpful because

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<v Speaker 2>what ends up happening is we're just stifling innovation. And

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<v Speaker 2>I'm trolling a bureaucracy.

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<v Speaker 3>Maybe before we leave, just one word to say, as

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<v Speaker 3>the Biden administration is going to depart, I want to

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<v Speaker 3>setute the work done by at the US LOOM program

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<v Speaker 3>the past four years. It's an extraordinary achievement what they've

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<v Speaker 3>managed to do. Not everything is going to be successful,

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<v Speaker 3>but they gave their golden letter back to the world

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<v Speaker 3>industrialth policy and the US is going to benefit for

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<v Speaker 3>decades of the work done by Jigasha and the Biden administration.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I wish Tigger all the best.

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<v Speaker 3>Or don't worry for him. I'm sure yes. De proposal

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<v Speaker 3>on his desk right now. Oh yeah, and he deserves them.

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<v Speaker 3>That's the job. I wish you merry Christmas. And our

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<v Speaker 3>first episode of the year is as usual our predictions

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<v Speaker 3>where you are always right and I'm always wrong because

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<v Speaker 3>I'm specific and you're vague.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm going to be I promise next year I'm gonna

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<v Speaker 2>be specific. Okay, cheers, good by friend Joy. Thank you

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<v Speaker 2>for listening to Redefining Energy. Don't forget to rate the

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<v Speaker 2>show and subscribe on Apple podcast Spotify for the platform

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<v Speaker 2>of your choice.