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Join today and play 42 00:01:52.760 --> 00:01:55.560 for free for your chance to redeem some serious prices. 43 00:01:56.200 --> 00:02:02.239 Jump chumpacasino dot com. Nob's necessarily We're comitted. Plus the conditions. 44 00:02:11.919 --> 00:02:15.319 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 45 00:02:15.439 --> 00:02:18.439 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 46 00:02:18.520 --> 00:02:25.759 written about them. Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every 47 00:02:25.879 --> 00:02:29.479 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 48 00:02:29.639 --> 00:02:33.800 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 49 00:02:33.840 --> 00:02:37.039 host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 50 00:02:47.439 --> 00:02:52.240 Evening. A legend in the biker community, Peter Big Pete 51 00:02:52.360 --> 00:02:55.680 James was the most revered gangster in the Outlaw Nation. 52 00:02:56.879 --> 00:03:00.080 He first perfected his skills with the Hell's Angels, the 53 00:03:00.120 --> 00:03:04.560 Outlaw's chief rival, before persuading thousands of disgruntled members from 54 00:03:04.599 --> 00:03:09.319 splintered Outlaws chapters to unite. Together. They formed a powerful 55 00:03:09.439 --> 00:03:15.199 criminal syndicate involved in extortion, contract murders, drugs and arms, trafficking, 56 00:03:15.400 --> 00:03:20.719 money laundering, and assassinations. Then a shocking medical diagnosis knocked 57 00:03:20.840 --> 00:03:24.439 James sideways, forcing him to face a new life on 58 00:03:24.560 --> 00:03:29.120 the outside of the organization he built, dodging snitches, federal 59 00:03:29.199 --> 00:03:34.680 law enforcement, and contract hits. In the Last Chicago Boss, 60 00:03:35.400 --> 00:03:39.520 James provides a startling and unprecedented expose into the inner 61 00:03:39.560 --> 00:03:42.919 workings of the Outlaw Nation from the unique perspective of 62 00:03:43.039 --> 00:03:46.400 its renowned leader, all brought to life through never before 63 00:03:46.479 --> 00:03:52.400 revealed interviews, police files, wire taps, recordings, and trial transcripts. 64 00:03:53.800 --> 00:03:57.840 Bookd featuring this evening is The Last Chicago Boss. My 65 00:03:58.039 --> 00:04:02.639 Life with the Chicago Outlaws was my special guest journalist, 66 00:04:02.800 --> 00:04:07.039 author and attorney Carrie Drobin. Welcome to the program, and 67 00:04:07.159 --> 00:04:11.400 thank you very much for agreeing to this interview. Carrie Drobin, thank. 68 00:04:11.240 --> 00:04:13.039 You so much for having me my pleasure. 69 00:04:14.199 --> 00:04:20.079 Thank you very much. Wonderful book again, incredible information, just 70 00:04:20.199 --> 00:04:23.360 when you think you've read it all. Tell us a 71 00:04:23.399 --> 00:04:28.519 little bit how you came to and please explain your background. 72 00:04:28.680 --> 00:04:33.160 I know that you're the co author of Vegos, Mongols 73 00:04:33.199 --> 00:04:37.839 and Outlaws, and Prodigal Father, Pagan's Son, and Running with 74 00:04:37.920 --> 00:04:44.759 the Devil you Want, a Best memoir autobiography, and a 75 00:04:44.800 --> 00:04:49.040 two time winner for True Crime Award for the True 76 00:04:49.079 --> 00:04:52.439 Crime Award. Tell us a little bit about your background, 77 00:04:53.079 --> 00:04:55.360 some of the books you've written, and why you say 78 00:04:56.600 --> 00:04:59.360 very early in the book that this is almost perhaps 79 00:05:01.040 --> 00:05:03.879 the culmination of your life's work. Tell us a little 80 00:05:03.879 --> 00:05:08.480 bit about what this book means to you and how 81 00:05:08.600 --> 00:05:11.800 you came to want to write this book. Tell us 82 00:05:11.800 --> 00:05:13.199 a little bit about that background. 83 00:05:14.120 --> 00:05:19.720 Okay, sure, well, I kind of fell into writing about 84 00:05:20.120 --> 00:05:23.399 motorcycle gangs. It was not something that I ever in 85 00:05:23.480 --> 00:05:26.399 a million years thought that I would pursue or write about. 86 00:05:26.639 --> 00:05:29.680 I started out as a novelist and I had written 87 00:05:31.519 --> 00:05:35.439 to fiction books before I was approached by the undercover 88 00:05:35.560 --> 00:05:40.160 operative who was working for the ATF in Operation Black Biscuit, 89 00:05:40.240 --> 00:05:42.279 and that was the subject of my first book, Running 90 00:05:42.319 --> 00:05:45.920 with a Double It later became a landmark criminal investigation. 91 00:05:46.079 --> 00:05:48.279 It was the first ever infiltration of the Hell's Angels 92 00:05:48.319 --> 00:05:51.480 by law enforcement. And it was a book or a 93 00:05:51.560 --> 00:05:56.160 project that I turned down three times. I had no experience, 94 00:05:56.279 --> 00:05:58.759 I had no agent, I had never written true crime before. 95 00:05:59.639 --> 00:06:03.519 I had no background even in journalism. As I said, 96 00:06:03.560 --> 00:06:06.000 I was a novelist and a lawyer. So I didn't 97 00:06:06.000 --> 00:06:08.759 really have a concept of how big a deal this 98 00:06:09.480 --> 00:06:12.040 original book was and how tremendous a project it was 99 00:06:12.079 --> 00:06:14.560 going to be, and so I approached it sort of 100 00:06:14.600 --> 00:06:18.120 as ignorance as Bliss at the time, and I began 101 00:06:18.319 --> 00:06:19.839 just sort of I hit the ground running, and I 102 00:06:19.920 --> 00:06:25.639 started doing interviews with the operatives involved, and ironically I 103 00:06:25.800 --> 00:06:28.120 realized halfway through that even though I had turned down 104 00:06:28.199 --> 00:06:31.480 this project, I really was probably exactly the right person 105 00:06:31.759 --> 00:06:36.639 to write that book. And I was primed for writing 106 00:06:37.839 --> 00:06:42.600 other outlaw motorcycle books because I grew up living in 107 00:06:43.120 --> 00:06:47.639 an undercover world. My parents both were covert, and so 108 00:06:47.839 --> 00:06:51.160 I was already living an undercover life, and at the 109 00:06:51.240 --> 00:06:55.600 time I was married to a detective homicide detective who 110 00:06:55.920 --> 00:06:58.680 worked largely undercover, and so my whole life at the 111 00:06:58.759 --> 00:07:02.360 time was very much living a double life. So I 112 00:07:02.519 --> 00:07:07.079 could relate very well to the operatives in Operation Black Biscuit, 113 00:07:07.160 --> 00:07:10.040 and so I was actually, I mean, that book sort 114 00:07:10.040 --> 00:07:13.360 of set that the framework for my later work. And 115 00:07:13.519 --> 00:07:17.759 so when I finished Running with the Devil and the 116 00:07:17.839 --> 00:07:21.240 odyssey that that created, I had somebody say to me, 117 00:07:21.279 --> 00:07:24.439 you know, don't be surprised if you get approached by 118 00:07:25.040 --> 00:07:27.360 someone from a rival gang who wants you to write 119 00:07:27.480 --> 00:07:30.439 their story from the inside. And at the time I 120 00:07:30.519 --> 00:07:33.439 thought that was hilarious, and in fact, that is exactly 121 00:07:33.519 --> 00:07:36.720 what happened. And I was approached by Anthony Mangini, who 122 00:07:37.600 --> 00:07:40.800 is lt in the book Prodigal Father Pagan's son, and 123 00:07:41.040 --> 00:07:44.560 he was born into what he called it he describes 124 00:07:44.600 --> 00:07:47.160 as born into madness, and so he was born into 125 00:07:48.000 --> 00:07:50.879 the organized crime family where his father was the founder 126 00:07:51.040 --> 00:07:54.279 of the Pagans motorcycle gang, and they are one of 127 00:07:54.279 --> 00:07:56.600 the chief rivals. They're one of the Big five. And 128 00:07:56.759 --> 00:07:59.439 so he asked me to write his story, and then 129 00:07:59.600 --> 00:08:02.600 I wrote enough. After that book came out, Charles Falco, 130 00:08:02.639 --> 00:08:05.879 who is the subject of Vogo's Mongols and Outlaws, read 131 00:08:06.199 --> 00:08:08.480 Running with the Devil and came to me and asked 132 00:08:08.480 --> 00:08:10.480 me to write his story. So they sort of really 133 00:08:10.560 --> 00:08:15.319 sort of piggybacked on each other. And Big Pete, ironically enough, 134 00:08:15.439 --> 00:08:20.160 his clubhouse, his North Side clubhouse, was prominently featured in 135 00:08:20.319 --> 00:08:24.720 Vogo's Mongols and Outlaws, and Charles Falco, who was an infiltrator, 136 00:08:25.199 --> 00:08:29.120 had actually been in attended parties at Big Pete's clubhouse. 137 00:08:29.759 --> 00:08:34.120 So when Peter James aka Big Pete read Voggo's Mongols 138 00:08:34.159 --> 00:08:37.200 and Outlaws, he identified that and he called me up 139 00:08:37.240 --> 00:08:39.240 and he said, you know, I have a story. I am. 140 00:08:39.879 --> 00:08:42.960 I was the boss of the Chicago Outlaws, and I'd 141 00:08:43.000 --> 00:08:45.600 like you to write my story. So everything sort of, 142 00:08:45.919 --> 00:08:48.639 you know, piggybacked from Running with the Devil, and I 143 00:08:49.600 --> 00:08:52.519 developed a niche and an expertise in this area, and 144 00:08:52.639 --> 00:08:57.279 that's how I came to write these books. And so 145 00:08:57.480 --> 00:08:59.399 to answer your question, how is this the culmination of 146 00:08:59.440 --> 00:09:03.159 my life's work, Well, Big Pete's book, in his story, 147 00:09:03.279 --> 00:09:07.200 it took about two years to interview him, research it, 148 00:09:07.360 --> 00:09:09.559 and write the book, and it took a lot out 149 00:09:09.600 --> 00:09:12.639 of me, and I realized, you know, in working with 150 00:09:13.120 --> 00:09:19.639 Peter James, he was a phenomenal character, just a master storyteller, 151 00:09:20.000 --> 00:09:24.679 very funny person. And through the course of my interviews 152 00:09:24.759 --> 00:09:28.559 with him, I learned not only so much about the 153 00:09:28.720 --> 00:09:33.120 Chicago outlaws, the gang lifestyle, motorcycle gangs, one percenter gangs, 154 00:09:33.159 --> 00:09:37.320 but I also learned an awful lot about myself, and 155 00:09:37.840 --> 00:09:41.480 you know what compelled me to write in this kind 156 00:09:41.480 --> 00:09:44.519 of underworld that I was very familiar with. So it 157 00:09:44.759 --> 00:09:46.159 was a really fascinating. 158 00:09:45.759 --> 00:09:48.759 Journey, certainly. 159 00:09:48.960 --> 00:09:49.320 Certainly. 160 00:09:50.080 --> 00:09:53.360 Now you start off by talking about Big Pete, and 161 00:09:54.720 --> 00:09:56.559 he grew up with a couple siblings in a small 162 00:09:56.639 --> 00:10:00.759 town outside on the outskirts with a sky. So tell 163 00:10:00.840 --> 00:10:03.200 us a little bit about his early life and his 164 00:10:03.480 --> 00:10:04.639 early influences. 165 00:10:06.639 --> 00:10:11.639 Yeah, So what's particularly extraordinary about Big p is that 166 00:10:11.960 --> 00:10:16.200 he knew from probably the age of seven, maybe even 167 00:10:16.240 --> 00:10:19.159 before that, that he wanted to be the boss of Chicago. 168 00:10:20.000 --> 00:10:23.120 Not necessarily the boss of the Chicago Outlaws, but the 169 00:10:23.200 --> 00:10:25.840 boss of the city of Chicago. And this is a 170 00:10:25.879 --> 00:10:29.519 pretty extraordinary statement for somebody that grew up in a suburb. 171 00:10:31.200 --> 00:10:34.679 He grew up in a pretty modest family, didn't have 172 00:10:34.759 --> 00:10:39.000 a lot of money. He was the first of his 173 00:10:39.240 --> 00:10:43.879 siblings who attended college. He joined fraternity, he played football, 174 00:10:44.039 --> 00:10:46.679 He had aspirations that once upon a time, to be 175 00:10:46.759 --> 00:10:52.159 in politics. He was a very smart, kind of cutting person. 176 00:10:53.360 --> 00:10:57.080 But what really influenced him was he had read The 177 00:10:57.200 --> 00:11:00.279 Godfather from a very early age. The Godfather was like 178 00:11:00.360 --> 00:11:02.840 his Bible, and he had read it at least seven 179 00:11:02.919 --> 00:11:05.879 times before he was twenty one, and he had highlighted 180 00:11:05.919 --> 00:11:08.799 various passages and could quote from it. And that was 181 00:11:08.960 --> 00:11:13.240 really a huge influence for him. He also was very 182 00:11:13.320 --> 00:11:19.200 influenced by his uncle, who went to Marquette, and he 183 00:11:19.440 --> 00:11:23.679 was a very well educated man. He was a businessman originally, 184 00:11:23.759 --> 00:11:27.360 and he went to school to become a CPA. But 185 00:11:27.559 --> 00:11:30.000 what happened with his uncle was his uncle sort of 186 00:11:30.039 --> 00:11:33.080 introduced him to the glamorous lifestyle of Chicago. He would 187 00:11:33.480 --> 00:11:37.039 show up periodically and take him into the city, and 188 00:11:37.639 --> 00:11:40.720 Pete just fell in love with Chicago. In fact, in 189 00:11:40.759 --> 00:11:44.720 the book, I kind of equate Chicago, who is almost 190 00:11:44.799 --> 00:11:48.000 a metaphorical mistress for him. It was somewhat of a 191 00:11:49.759 --> 00:11:54.679 just a magical, fantastical place, and his uncle really personified 192 00:11:54.720 --> 00:11:56.759 that for him and showed him that this was the 193 00:11:56.840 --> 00:11:59.320 life he could have. So his uncle eventually winds up 194 00:11:59.519 --> 00:12:03.960 finding him his life in the course races, and so 195 00:12:04.600 --> 00:12:07.919 he kind of qua I introduces him to that underworld, 196 00:12:08.080 --> 00:12:11.519 and Pete is measmerized by it, So he's influenced by that. 197 00:12:11.600 --> 00:12:14.799 He's also influenced that. One of the really interesting things 198 00:12:15.240 --> 00:12:17.600 I found in this book is here's this family who's 199 00:12:17.759 --> 00:12:22.840 very very close to They play board games as as children, 200 00:12:22.960 --> 00:12:25.120 and that's that's their form of or their major form 201 00:12:25.120 --> 00:12:29.080 of entertainment. So they played Risk and the Chinese game Go, 202 00:12:29.399 --> 00:12:32.759 they played Monopoly, and so through the board games and 203 00:12:32.840 --> 00:12:36.360 this is really how I framed his memoir, he learned 204 00:12:36.799 --> 00:12:41.759 how to, you know, use pawns to move across the 205 00:12:41.799 --> 00:12:45.960 board and put people in checkmate. He learned how to 206 00:12:46.240 --> 00:12:49.799 take over territories by playing the game Risk. He learned 207 00:12:49.799 --> 00:12:56.360 about properties and boundaries from playing Monopoly, and so these 208 00:12:56.440 --> 00:13:00.840 were all huge influences in his life and really sort 209 00:13:00.879 --> 00:13:03.840 of led him every He says in the book that 210 00:13:04.000 --> 00:13:07.159 everything he did in his life led him one step 211 00:13:07.240 --> 00:13:11.200 closer to his goal of becoming boss, and he saw 212 00:13:11.360 --> 00:13:16.200 the Outlaws as a vehicle to become the Boss. So 213 00:13:16.360 --> 00:13:19.159 it wasn't necessarily that he wanted to join a biker gang, 214 00:13:19.240 --> 00:13:24.200 because as his story progresses, you can see how he's 215 00:13:24.360 --> 00:13:28.960 become the leader of almost every i want to say, 216 00:13:29.039 --> 00:13:33.480 prototype of what ultimately he would become. So he becomes 217 00:13:34.000 --> 00:13:36.480 a frat leader, for example, and he learns how to 218 00:13:37.840 --> 00:13:40.600 you know, manipulate the frat brothers that he has. He 219 00:13:40.720 --> 00:13:46.080 becomes an Order of the Moose when he joins the 220 00:13:46.759 --> 00:13:50.200 you know, the Moose Lodge. So everything that he does, 221 00:13:50.320 --> 00:13:53.320 even you know, forms his own clubs, he's every every 222 00:13:53.440 --> 00:13:57.919 step he takes is a step toward becoming that basically, 223 00:13:58.000 --> 00:14:00.480 the CEO of a criminal organization and become the Boss 224 00:14:00.720 --> 00:14:01.360 of Chicago. 225 00:14:03.519 --> 00:14:06.480 Yeah, it's very interesting, it's almost comedic, but it isn't. 226 00:14:06.720 --> 00:14:09.120 In that he goes to this what you would think 227 00:14:09.320 --> 00:14:14.639 Moose Lodge, a pretty innocent place, and he, as you right, 228 00:14:14.759 --> 00:14:18.080 he brings in thirty five of his friends and in 229 00:14:18.200 --> 00:14:20.919 Docne doctrinates him into the Loyal Order of Moose. So 230 00:14:21.000 --> 00:14:24.000 he gets thirty five votes, and later Pete is the 231 00:14:24.399 --> 00:14:27.559 governor of the Loyal Order of his Moose. So he 232 00:14:27.679 --> 00:14:30.919 starts in humble beginnings, but he has the same plan 233 00:14:31.080 --> 00:14:36.840 always and it's conquer and get what he wants and 234 00:14:37.639 --> 00:14:42.639 be the boss. You also talk about that he realizes 235 00:14:42.720 --> 00:14:45.879 that education is a key, and so it's not incongruous 236 00:14:45.960 --> 00:14:48.639 to be a tough guy but also be educated. And 237 00:14:48.799 --> 00:14:52.440 also he talks about his love of football, or at 238 00:14:52.559 --> 00:14:56.960 least his skill in football. So what does his athletic ability, 239 00:14:56.960 --> 00:15:00.600 at least at that time, and his idea that education 240 00:15:00.720 --> 00:15:03.039 is important, how does that what does he do with that? 241 00:15:04.679 --> 00:15:08.399 Well, I think he realizes early on, and I think 242 00:15:08.440 --> 00:15:10.480 he really he really could have been anything that he 243 00:15:10.559 --> 00:15:12.279 wanted to be. He could have been a lawyer, he 244 00:15:12.360 --> 00:15:15.559 could have been he jokes. I don't know that he's joking. 245 00:15:15.600 --> 00:15:18.480 Actually he's half serious that if he had not been 246 00:15:18.559 --> 00:15:20.360 the boss of the Chicago Outlaws, he might have been 247 00:15:20.360 --> 00:15:23.919 a televangelist. Because what he realizes early on is that 248 00:15:24.240 --> 00:15:29.960 with education, knowledge is power, and he can manipulate you 249 00:15:30.039 --> 00:15:32.679 know what, he perceives as underlings people that are not 250 00:15:32.799 --> 00:15:35.080 as smart as he is or not as cunning as 251 00:15:35.120 --> 00:15:38.399 he is. And so, you know, as he rises in 252 00:15:38.480 --> 00:15:44.519 the ranks, he finds vehicles aka the Chicago Outlaws, to 253 00:15:45.519 --> 00:15:47.720 elevate him and to give him some kind of clout 254 00:15:48.039 --> 00:15:52.120 in the world of the mob, you know, the outfit, 255 00:15:53.279 --> 00:15:57.320 and in the world of basically being able to corral 256 00:15:57.600 --> 00:16:01.759 thirty eight other clubs to under his umbrella. So he 257 00:16:01.919 --> 00:16:04.600 sees education as a way to get power and a 258 00:16:04.679 --> 00:16:10.240 way to really manipulate. I guess is a better way 259 00:16:10.279 --> 00:16:12.480 to say it. But he's basically manipulating people that are 260 00:16:12.559 --> 00:16:15.080 not as smart as he is or as cunning as 261 00:16:15.120 --> 00:16:18.440 he is. And the whole idea that he plays in 262 00:16:18.519 --> 00:16:22.080 football is again it's employing the whole metaphor of gamesmanship, 263 00:16:22.600 --> 00:16:27.000 because he is almost Some people refer to him in 264 00:16:27.039 --> 00:16:31.120 the book as the gentleman gangster because he's he's very fair, 265 00:16:31.639 --> 00:16:35.200 he's very smart, but in the end he always gets 266 00:16:35.240 --> 00:16:39.159 what he wants. And so in football everything is rules, 267 00:16:39.559 --> 00:16:42.240 and you have rules of engagement, and you play by 268 00:16:42.279 --> 00:16:46.279 the rules, and each person has their own position in 269 00:16:46.399 --> 00:16:49.639 the game. And you know, he would argue that it's 270 00:16:49.720 --> 00:16:53.519 positions of hierarchy, you know, so not you know each 271 00:16:53.639 --> 00:16:57.000 member of the team. You operate as an ensemble, but 272 00:16:57.240 --> 00:17:01.240 each team member has their specific do and role. And 273 00:17:01.399 --> 00:17:04.599 so that's very much akin to what it was like 274 00:17:04.720 --> 00:17:10.319 to run an outlaw motorcycle organization. There's rules and hierarchies 275 00:17:10.400 --> 00:17:14.200 and rank and file, and everyone operates as an ensemble, right, 276 00:17:14.720 --> 00:17:20.440 all for one, one for all, But everybody knows, you 277 00:17:20.519 --> 00:17:22.559 know where they are in the pecking order, and everyone 278 00:17:22.680 --> 00:17:23.759 knows the rules of the game. 279 00:17:26.960 --> 00:17:32.240 You talk about in this about the what adios means 280 00:17:32.400 --> 00:17:36.400 to outlaw nation. So tell us about the state of 281 00:17:37.400 --> 00:17:40.720 the rivalry that we talked about in the introduction when 282 00:17:40.720 --> 00:17:42.680 we talk about the Hell's Angels, tell us what the 283 00:17:43.039 --> 00:17:47.440 that that time, What did Big Pete? What was the 284 00:17:47.559 --> 00:17:50.359 reality of the situation between Outlaws and the Hell's Angels 285 00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:51.799 at that time in Chicago. 286 00:17:53.319 --> 00:17:56.079 So Adios means angels die in outlaw states. 287 00:17:56.319 --> 00:17:56.599 And so. 288 00:17:58.319 --> 00:18:01.799 The war that was going on in the early nineties 289 00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:05.480 and was sort of trying to be perpetuated in during 290 00:18:05.519 --> 00:18:11.200 Pete's reign, is that Angels did not have territory in Chicago. 291 00:18:11.720 --> 00:18:16.440 That was a that was an outlaw nation and so 292 00:18:17.240 --> 00:18:21.000 the whole war and the whole battle that continues to 293 00:18:21.079 --> 00:18:23.799 be fought between these outlaw motorcycle gangs is a battle 294 00:18:23.880 --> 00:18:28.200 for turf. And turf of course, gives you prowess and 295 00:18:28.279 --> 00:18:30.240 the drug trade and the arms trade, and in all 296 00:18:30.279 --> 00:18:36.160 of these these other you know, under the radar enterprises. 297 00:18:36.759 --> 00:18:41.039 So it's very important for the outlaws to maintain that 298 00:18:41.240 --> 00:18:44.640 control and that territory, and then that's the whole objective 299 00:18:44.759 --> 00:18:50.240 of the game. So you have when the Outlaws changed 300 00:18:50.279 --> 00:18:54.519 considerably since the early nineties, and Peete's rerain went from 301 00:18:55.400 --> 00:18:59.079 the nineties to about twenty fifteen. The core values remained 302 00:18:59.119 --> 00:19:00.799 the same, but during the early nineties there was a 303 00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:03.759 movement to defend turf against the Hell's Angels, and so 304 00:19:04.039 --> 00:19:07.920 Chicago was there was like a warlike frenzy going on. 305 00:19:08.039 --> 00:19:11.559 It was a hunter prey mentality, and there was even 306 00:19:11.559 --> 00:19:15.319 the sort of mantra cripple or kill, cripple or kill 307 00:19:15.359 --> 00:19:15.799 the enemy. 308 00:19:16.319 --> 00:19:16.599 And so. 309 00:19:18.240 --> 00:19:22.599 At the time in the nineties, there was this movement 310 00:19:22.960 --> 00:19:26.440 to convert the Hell's henchmen, who already had a foothold 311 00:19:26.720 --> 00:19:29.039 in Chicago. They were going to convert them to the 312 00:19:29.160 --> 00:19:32.440 hell of Angels. So the Outlaws were opposed to the 313 00:19:32.519 --> 00:19:35.920 Angels establishing a Midwest presence, and so they aggressively protected 314 00:19:35.920 --> 00:19:39.680 their territory. And in nineteen ninety four, Taco Bowman, who 315 00:19:39.799 --> 00:19:42.720 was the Outlaws international president and he's now serving life 316 00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:47.079 in prison, he led the charge when he ordered the 317 00:19:47.200 --> 00:19:50.279 Outlaw regional boss at that time to bomb the Health Henchmen. 318 00:19:51.319 --> 00:19:53.480 And so there were a number of fire bombings that 319 00:19:53.559 --> 00:19:56.240 went on, and it was, you know, the Outlaws had 320 00:19:56.319 --> 00:19:59.680 a presence in Chicago that you know, they were known 321 00:19:59.720 --> 00:20:05.480 as the this dangerous, reckless group of you know, Hellians 322 00:20:05.519 --> 00:20:08.440 that were that were firebombing things just to keep the 323 00:20:08.839 --> 00:20:12.599 Health Henchmen from encroaching on their territory and obviously the 324 00:20:13.119 --> 00:20:16.720 healths Angels. So what happened during Pete's reign was very 325 00:20:16.799 --> 00:20:20.880 interesting because Pete says often in his book that you know, 326 00:20:21.119 --> 00:20:23.799 if you don't have if you're building an army and 327 00:20:23.920 --> 00:20:27.000 there isn't a war, then your soldiers are going to 328 00:20:27.079 --> 00:20:30.480 become lax. And so, you know, what was happening was 329 00:20:30.720 --> 00:20:35.200 he was having meetings and runs. You know, runs were 330 00:20:35.319 --> 00:20:37.880 events that were organized by the Outlaws, and there would 331 00:20:37.880 --> 00:20:41.359 be Outlaws who would either be late to the meetings, 332 00:20:41.519 --> 00:20:44.000 not show up at all, or ask Pete, you know, 333 00:20:44.119 --> 00:20:46.599 could we skip this week because I have to take 334 00:20:46.680 --> 00:20:49.680 my old lady out for a Valentine's Day, you know event. 335 00:20:50.119 --> 00:20:53.240 So it was almost diluting the presence of the outlaws 336 00:20:53.319 --> 00:20:57.079 because there wasn't a real war. So what Pete had 337 00:20:57.119 --> 00:21:02.000 to do, which was cometic and also functional, was he 338 00:21:02.079 --> 00:21:05.279 had to invent a fake war. So he would corral 339 00:21:05.400 --> 00:21:08.559 the outlaws on a weekly basis and he would go hunting, 340 00:21:08.680 --> 00:21:11.039 and he would hunt for Hell's Angels. Hell's Angels that, 341 00:21:11.160 --> 00:21:14.039 by the way, did not exist in the places that 342 00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:17.480 he took this group of outlaws too. So he would 343 00:21:17.519 --> 00:21:21.039 convince the outlaws that he was training that Hell's Angels 344 00:21:21.039 --> 00:21:23.240 were everywhere they were encroaching in on their territory. They 345 00:21:23.279 --> 00:21:25.519 had to go to these various bars and scout them out, 346 00:21:25.880 --> 00:21:30.680 so they would wind up in brawls with mostly Polish 347 00:21:30.799 --> 00:21:34.000 community had nothing to do with Hell's Angels at all, 348 00:21:34.480 --> 00:21:37.079 but he had to keep that image going and that 349 00:21:37.160 --> 00:21:39.880 persona going. And so there are a number of very 350 00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:43.440 funny scenes I think in Last Chicago Boss that really 351 00:21:43.799 --> 00:21:49.359 highlight that, including this whole crazy excursion to Sturgis where 352 00:21:50.720 --> 00:21:53.599 they're surrounded by Hell's Angels. They think they're surrounded by 353 00:21:53.640 --> 00:21:55.240 Hell's angels and they're going to be bombed at any 354 00:21:55.319 --> 00:21:58.880 moment or sniped, and it's just not the reality. But 355 00:21:59.160 --> 00:22:01.559 they have to keep illusion up in order to keep 356 00:22:01.599 --> 00:22:04.720 the whole goal and objective. The whole reason for the 357 00:22:04.759 --> 00:22:08.160 Outlaws to exist is to defend their territory. 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We're prohibited by locks eight team 371 00:22:43.880 --> 00:22:47.279 plus terms and conditions the plague. See website for details. Chicago. 372 00:22:50.480 --> 00:22:56.680 What is different with Pete's philosophy in terms of rivals 373 00:22:56.839 --> 00:22:59.759 and in terms of recruiting and in terms of again 374 00:22:59.799 --> 00:23:03.000 what they call puppet clubs, support clubs. What is his 375 00:23:03.079 --> 00:23:08.960 philosophy and if it's different than past president's philosophies. 376 00:23:09.640 --> 00:23:15.039 Well, Pete has a brilliant idea actually that his philosophy is, 377 00:23:15.559 --> 00:23:18.559 you know, we want to be inclusive, not exclusive. And 378 00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:24.920 so traditionally the Outlaws and actually many biker gangs traditionally 379 00:23:25.039 --> 00:23:29.920 have been exclusive. They've been very you know, they've been 380 00:23:29.960 --> 00:23:33.960 accused of being white supremacist. They certainly don't allow women 381 00:23:34.119 --> 00:23:38.359 into their clubs, can't hold positions of power, positions of office. 382 00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:42.400 And so Pete saw this as a detriment. He believed 383 00:23:42.440 --> 00:23:44.920 that if you include every club, then you have some 384 00:23:45.359 --> 00:23:50.440 modicum of control over everyone. So he had women in positions. 385 00:23:51.079 --> 00:23:54.680 You know, he formed this Confederation of clubs. So women 386 00:23:54.759 --> 00:23:57.720 were not members of the Outlaws, but they were They 387 00:23:57.839 --> 00:24:02.640 held positions like secretary in the Confederation of Clubs, which 388 00:24:02.720 --> 00:24:05.559 was unheard of because Outlaws did not answer to women. 389 00:24:06.079 --> 00:24:09.440 And so that was one, you know, thing that he 390 00:24:09.559 --> 00:24:13.279 completely dissected and changed. The other thing he did was 391 00:24:13.359 --> 00:24:18.640 he corralled a host of African American clubs that were 392 00:24:18.759 --> 00:24:21.880 under his umbrella. And he had this this real ability to. 393 00:24:23.400 --> 00:24:26.039 He just had such charisma and charm that he was 394 00:24:26.119 --> 00:24:29.759 able to get these clubs to follow him and so, 395 00:24:30.079 --> 00:24:33.920 and that's it's really unprecedented in the biker culture to 396 00:24:34.039 --> 00:24:37.720 do that. So he had he wanted to dispel that 397 00:24:37.920 --> 00:24:40.880 myths that they that the Outlaws were a white supremacist organization. 398 00:24:41.799 --> 00:24:45.680 But mostly the reason he did it was he believed 399 00:24:45.720 --> 00:24:47.480 that if you didn't you know, clubs were going to 400 00:24:47.559 --> 00:24:50.640 form anyway. They and he had them approach him almost 401 00:24:50.640 --> 00:24:52.160