WEBVTT

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<v Speaker 1>I can never forgive Thompson and Venables for the horrendous, calculated,

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<v Speaker 1>cold blooded murder of James. That's a quote from James

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<v Speaker 1>Bulger's mother, Denise Fergus. Today's case is one of the

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<v Speaker 1>most horrific cases we have covered to date. It deals

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<v Speaker 1>with death, assault, and children. A young two year old

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<v Speaker 1>boy was lured away from his mother and his life

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<v Speaker 1>was tragically and maliciously taken. This is the story of

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<v Speaker 1>James Bulker.

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<v Speaker 2>My name's Ben and I'm Nicole, and you're listening to

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<v Speaker 2>Wicked and.

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<v Speaker 1>Grim, a true crime podcast. The following podcasts and material

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<v Speaker 1>intended for a mature audience. Listener discretion advised. Happy birthday, Ben,

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you big old thirty six years old. Around the

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<v Speaker 1>sun today? Mm hmm, celebrating it right, you're feeling it? Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>I woke up with a release sore back this morning,

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<v Speaker 1>had to stretch it out, had a good hot shower

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<v Speaker 1>to help relax those muscles, got moving, felt a little

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<v Speaker 1>better as the day went on, and it's probably going

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<v Speaker 1>to repeat itself tomorrow because that's just what happens as

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<v Speaker 1>you age.

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<v Speaker 2>Well. Yeah, I mean, we're also on a road trip

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<v Speaker 2>and I feel like my body just can't do road

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<v Speaker 2>trips anymore. My back is just ft.

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<v Speaker 1>Fair enough, We've been sitting in the car for at

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<v Speaker 1>least six hours a day.

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<v Speaker 2>At least, But I mean, I feel like, I don't know,

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<v Speaker 2>there's got to be tip tips and tricks of how

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<v Speaker 2>to deal.

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<v Speaker 1>With that better. Oh, I think so, I'm pretty sure

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<v Speaker 1>the answer is just yoga. And then the bed that

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<v Speaker 1>we're sleeping on tonight in this hotel, Like, this hotel

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<v Speaker 1>is phenomenal. It's basically just an apartment, but it's a

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<v Speaker 1>bit of a firm mattress and I am a side sleeper,

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<v Speaker 1>so I need a little bit more softer to kind

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<v Speaker 1>of like conform to my curves of my body.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, how are you going with that? So?

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<v Speaker 1>Boy, Yeah, the firmer mattresses don't do so well for me.

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<v Speaker 1>And yeah, as a result, my back was fucking this morning.

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<v Speaker 2>I actually had the best sleep I think in this

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<v Speaker 2>bed last night, really, out of all the beds that

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<v Speaker 2>we've slept in. Yeah, yeah, well on this.

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<v Speaker 1>Trip, not our own, gotcha.

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<v Speaker 2>There's nothing like your own bed, nothing like.

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<v Speaker 1>Your own bed. It's there's there's no place like home.

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<v Speaker 1>As Dorothy said for the Wizard.

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<v Speaker 2>Of OZ right exactly.

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<v Speaker 1>We have some patrons to thank for signing up and

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<v Speaker 1>supporting us behind the scenes getting that exclusive content. They

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<v Speaker 1>had a exclusive episode drop for the end of the month,

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<v Speaker 1>and this week we have one who signed up, and

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<v Speaker 1>that one amazing individual is Mackenzie.

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<v Speaker 2>Awesome.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you so much Mackenzie. For McKenzie and supporting us

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<v Speaker 1>means a lot.

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<v Speaker 2>It sure does.

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<v Speaker 1>Now the murder of James Bulger. This is a rough,

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<v Speaker 1>rough case and I'm warning everyone now this deals with children,

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<v Speaker 1>various forms of assaults. It is heavy. It has been

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<v Speaker 1>on our case for a long time to cover.

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<v Speaker 2>On our list. Yeah what did I say on our case? Oh?

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<v Speaker 1>Sorry, on our list. It has been a case on

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<v Speaker 1>our list to cover for a long time, and now

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<v Speaker 1>is the time. So here we are.

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<v Speaker 2>It's been on there a long time. But when we've

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<v Speaker 2>been putting off because it's it's going to be a

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<v Speaker 2>doozy and I don't even know much about it.

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<v Speaker 1>It's one that it's up there with some of the

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<v Speaker 1>worst cases we have ever covered. So you're going to

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<v Speaker 1>walk away with a fairly heavy heart after this one.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh boy, what a good way to end the vacation.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you, Ben.

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<v Speaker 1>Sorry, well, are you are you ready to dive in? Oh,

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<v Speaker 1>we should say actually, since we are in a road

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<v Speaker 1>trip right now before we do dive in our audio on,

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<v Speaker 1>this may sound a bit different because we are, like

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<v Speaker 1>we already said, in a hotel room right now, we

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<v Speaker 1>have our road trip podcasting here with us. It's a

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<v Speaker 1>different microphone, different setup to try and muffle some of

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<v Speaker 1>the echoes. We have the pillows from our bed built

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<v Speaker 1>up around us at the moment to try and give

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<v Speaker 1>us somewhat of a studio sound. So it might sound different,

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<v Speaker 1>but we'll be right back to our regular sounding episodes

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<v Speaker 1>next next week.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>So with that said, now, are you ready to give

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<v Speaker 1>into this episode? Okay?

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<v Speaker 2>Now? Or never? So let's do it?

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<v Speaker 1>Okay? Well. On the sixteenth of March in nineteen ninety

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<v Speaker 1>in Kirby, England, a baby boy named James Patrick Bulger

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<v Speaker 1>entered the world, bringing immense joy to his parents, Ralph

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<v Speaker 1>and Denise. The new parents had previously experienced the heartache

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<v Speaker 1>of losing a previous daughter who was still born. Now

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<v Speaker 1>James was a beacon of hope and happiness for the

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<v Speaker 1>growing family. James was a happy little boy who was

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<v Speaker 1>blessed with bright blue eyes and a mop of light

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<v Speaker 1>brown hair. He exuded a very cheerful demeanor, constantly bringing

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<v Speaker 1>smiles and laughter to his parents face. At twenty five

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<v Speaker 1>years old, Denise showered her son with constant affection, and

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<v Speaker 1>she watched over him with extremely watchful eyes like a hawk.

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<v Speaker 1>She had, unfortunately with a stillborn birth before, lost one

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<v Speaker 1>Chad at one point, and was not prepared to be

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<v Speaker 1>losing another.

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<v Speaker 2>That's really hard.

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<v Speaker 1>However, tragedy would lurk around the corner. On what would

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<v Speaker 1>seem like a routine trip to some shops just before

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<v Speaker 1>James's third birthday.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh gosh.

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<v Speaker 1>On the Friday afternoon on the twelfth of February in

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen ninety three, Denise took her son James for a

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<v Speaker 1>shopping excursion at Bootle Strand shopping Center. As the day

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<v Speaker 1>went on, Denise stepped into ar Tim's butcher's shop for

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<v Speaker 1>her final errand of the day, and it was here

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<v Speaker 1>that her attention was momentarily diverted away from her son, James,

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<v Speaker 1>who was at her side. Tragically, in this fleeting moment

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<v Speaker 1>of distraction, it proved to be long enough for James

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<v Speaker 1>to vanish into thin air panic quickly ensued as Denise

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<v Speaker 1>realized that her son was no longer there, no longer

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<v Speaker 1>by her side, she couldn't find him. She quickly quickly

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<v Speaker 1>rushed outside the shop, frantically scanning the surroundings, hoping that

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<v Speaker 1>she would see her son and the nightmare would end

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<v Speaker 1>in a simple rush of panic and nothing more. Unfortunately,

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<v Speaker 1>as the seconds ticked by, and no matter how hard

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<v Speaker 1>she looked, she still could not find James anywhere.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh gosh, that is just brutal, that feeling. I couldn't imagine.

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<v Speaker 1>I can't imagine either, And for her reality began to

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<v Speaker 1>sink in. It was her worst nightmare that was unfolding

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<v Speaker 1>right before her eyes. Her son was gone.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and he was not even three years old.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, just about to turn three. Gosh, with no sign

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<v Speaker 1>of James. The authorities who were summoned to the scene

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<v Speaker 1>after the they were after the shopping center security team

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<v Speaker 1>as well. They were like, can you guys get out

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<v Speaker 1>here help us. You know the layout of the land,

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<v Speaker 1>let's band together see if we can find him.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, yeah, you would think, because you would think he

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<v Speaker 2>wouldn't be far right.

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<v Speaker 1>Like he's one would think.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, probably within the shopping center.

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<v Speaker 1>So that's what they did. They focused on looking through

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<v Speaker 1>the shopping center right away, and unfortunately, neither the authorities

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<v Speaker 1>or the security team were able to locate them locate James.

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<v Speaker 1>With the investigation now beginning, Denise provided a detailed description

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<v Speaker 1>of her son's attire at the time of the disappearance.

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<v Speaker 1>He was wearing a blue jacket with a hood, silver

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<v Speaker 1>tracksuit pants, and white trainer shoes. The description was immediately

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<v Speaker 1>passed along to everyone, anyone who would listen, anyone in

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<v Speaker 1>the surrounding area, be it authorities or be at public civilians,

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<v Speaker 1>be it shop owners, anyone who would listen, who's around.

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<v Speaker 1>The description was past. The seconds Denise first felt in

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<v Speaker 1>the moment of James's disappearance began turning into hours, and

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<v Speaker 1>by four PM, an officer involved in the search began

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<v Speaker 1>consoling the absolutely distraught mother while the others continued the search. Finally,

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<v Speaker 1>the first break in the investigation came when the authorities

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<v Speaker 1>and security personnel tirelessly poured all through the collected CCTV

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<v Speaker 1>footage from the shopping center. While going through the different

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<v Speaker 1>angles from different cameras covering several different shops or hallways,

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<v Speaker 1>whatever it be, they eventually spotted James. He was seen

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<v Speaker 1>leaving the butcher shop, in fact, only moments before Denise

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<v Speaker 1>was seen exiting the butcher shop frantically looking for him,

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<v Speaker 1>and the footage captured a very heart wrenching moment when Denise,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, is exactly doing that, panicked looking around hoping

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<v Speaker 1>to find her son.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, it's a complete nightmare for.

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<v Speaker 1>Her exactly, and she is oblivion to where he is.

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<v Speaker 1>And in the cameras it shows that he's venturing to

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<v Speaker 1>the upper floor, trailing behind two older preteen boys, with

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<v Speaker 1>her standing there on the floor none the wiser.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh okay, so was like heading back into the mall

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<v Speaker 2>with these boys.

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<v Speaker 1>In the mall, but heading up to the second floor. Okay.

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<v Speaker 1>The grainy images from the CCTV revealed the last moment

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<v Speaker 1>of James before disappearing with the two older boys. One

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<v Speaker 1>of the boys was holding James's hand, leading him towards

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<v Speaker 1>the exit, their path directed towards Leeds Liverpool Canal.

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<v Speaker 2>Huh Okay.

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<v Speaker 1>It would be Sunday, February fourteenth, nineteen ninety three, Valentine's Day.

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<v Speaker 1>The day dawned with James now missing for two heart

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<v Speaker 1>wrenching days. Both police and James's family had exhausted every

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<v Speaker 1>avenue of their desperate search efforts. Patrol cars had cruised

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<v Speaker 1>the streets, their loud speakers pleading for end in Press

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<v Speaker 1>conferences had been held urging the two boys spotted in

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<v Speaker 1>the Straw shopping center to come forward, and a relentless

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<v Speaker 1>man hunt had scoured the nearby canals, which was where

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<v Speaker 1>they were rass headed, and the wastelands. However, any flicker

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<v Speaker 1>of hope for a joyful reunion was about to be extinguished.

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<v Speaker 1>A breathless young boy burst through the doors in Walton

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<v Speaker 1>Lane Police station with grim news A body had been

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<v Speaker 1>discovered on the railway tracks a mere one hundred and

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<v Speaker 1>fifty yards from the station's rear entrance. One unfolded necks

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<v Speaker 1>was a horror that put a pit in the stomach

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<v Speaker 1>of the entire nation. The police were confronted with the

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<v Speaker 1>grim reality of a murder investigation, faced with a daunting

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<v Speaker 1>task of tracking down two young boys involved in the

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<v Speaker 1>chilling events, because right now they stood over the gruesome

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<v Speaker 1>remains of the dis east two year old James Bulger.

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<v Speaker 2>No, why, why.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I can't just spill it all right now? We

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<v Speaker 1>got a story to tell here.

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<v Speaker 2>I am aware of that, but what the actual fuck?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, his remains were in rough shape as well, which

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<v Speaker 1>we will get into later. But being on the train tracks,

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<v Speaker 1>he was run over by a train and his body

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<v Speaker 1>was severed.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh shit, yes, okay, brutal.

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<v Speaker 1>So Following the horrible and tragic news of James's murder,

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<v Speaker 1>emotions within the Liverpool community reached a boiling point along

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<v Speaker 1>the bank near where his body was discovered. An outpouring

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<v Speaker 1>of grief took form in it took the form of

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<v Speaker 1>hundreds of flowers being laid in tribute to the young

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<v Speaker 1>life that was lost. Among them, chillingly was a bouquet

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<v Speaker 1>placed by someone who was actually who would actually later

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<v Speaker 1>be idea as one of James's own murderers. Oh yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>kind of almost disgusting, almost soiling the entire tribute itself,

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<v Speaker 1>really right, But still, regardless of this dark piece finding

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<v Speaker 1>its way in the memorial, the sea of flowers stood

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<v Speaker 1>in James's name, which is kind of We just covered

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<v Speaker 1>a case on Patreon where an individual offered condolences to

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<v Speaker 1>a family when he in fact was the one who

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<v Speaker 1>did the killing, so it's very similar in this instant

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<v Speaker 1>that the perpetrator is the one doing this act of

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<v Speaker 1>quote kindness if you will, to the family who's lost

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<v Speaker 1>a loved one.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean, I think like it's not uncommon for

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<v Speaker 2>at funerals for investigators to go if the person who

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<v Speaker 2>died was murdered, right, because chances are they maybe knew

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<v Speaker 2>their murderer or the murderer is there in attendance at

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<v Speaker 2>the funeral exactly, So beyond disturbing.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so they're there for not only of course paying respect,

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<v Speaker 1>but investigative purposes as well. Yeah, they could even be

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<v Speaker 1>watching people's faces and their reaction to the memorial, like

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<v Speaker 1>why is that person not crying? Why is that person

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<v Speaker 1>crying as much as they're crying, like things like that, looking.

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<v Speaker 2>For those cues or who's here and why would they

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<v Speaker 2>be here kind of thing.

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<v Speaker 1>And yeah, yet one hundred percent. Now, as the community grieved,

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<v Speaker 1>the authorities were hard working at the case, trying to

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<v Speaker 1>make any lead that they could to figure anything out.

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<v Speaker 1>With only the grainy images from the CCTV cameras capturing

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<v Speaker 1>James's subduction, the police were left with very little to do.

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<v Speaker 1>Determined though, to track down the two older boys seen

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<v Speaker 1>leading him away from the shopping center, though, they began

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<v Speaker 1>attempting to enhance the footage to hopefully, in any way,

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<v Speaker 1>shape or form, discern the two and come up with

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<v Speaker 1>an identity. Thankfully, the community rally behind the authorities and

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<v Speaker 1>gave anything they could as far as information, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>what they had seen or heard on you know, anything,

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<v Speaker 1>basically whatever they could do to help make an arrest. Unfortunately,

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<v Speaker 1>this turned out one instance, on Tuesday, February sixteenth, due

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<v Speaker 1>to information that was passed on to police, they made

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<v Speaker 1>an arrest. But unfortunately, like I said, this turned out

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<v Speaker 1>to be a false lead, and it was an innocent boy,

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<v Speaker 1>someone who had given some information, be it false or

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<v Speaker 1>whether they mistook identity, whatever the situation, it was unfortunately

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<v Speaker 1>an innocent individual. He was not one of the individuals

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<v Speaker 1>seen on the footage. However, with the community so wound

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<v Speaker 1>tight over this incident, and I mean understandably so, and

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<v Speaker 1>the witness and there was witnesses who saw the arrest,

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<v Speaker 1>people began to talk and draw on conclusions. So this

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<v Speaker 1>is actually an innocent boy who is not involved whatsoever.

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<v Speaker 1>But the community now ceases kid as someone who was

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<v Speaker 1>arrested and he must be the one who who did

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<v Speaker 1>something was responsible just.

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<v Speaker 2>Being like spread like wild wildfire, and then.

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<v Speaker 1>It became a witch hunt of sort, with an angry

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<v Speaker 1>public wanting to seek retribution for James and the innocent boy,

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<v Speaker 1>who is now set free from the police after being

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<v Speaker 1>found innocent, had to leave his home with his family

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<v Speaker 1>for fear of their own safety.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh okay, that is not okay though, no.

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<v Speaker 1>No, need, it's not. It's an unfortunate situation and it's

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<v Speaker 1>not something super important to the story, but I did

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<v Speaker 1>want to keep it in here to drive home the

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<v Speaker 1>importance of like the moral of this. Yeah, it's a

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<v Speaker 1>classic two rights don't make a wrong if they if

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<v Speaker 1>they stayed in their home, they very well could have

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<v Speaker 1>turned out to be two innocent young boys who could

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<v Speaker 1>have lost their life in this story. But they fled

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<v Speaker 1>for their own safety and thankfully they remained safe. But

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<v Speaker 1>it's unreasonab that it's unreasonable.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, it makes it does make sense, but it

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't make sense. And I'm almost kind of thinking to

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<v Speaker 2>the police, maybe, you know, I should have communicated something

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<v Speaker 2>in a better way of sorts because that But what

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<v Speaker 2>do they do?

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<v Speaker 1>I guess, well, I mean, yeah, you can only hold

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<v Speaker 1>someone for so long, Right, they have no evidence to

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<v Speaker 1>hold this kid, so he they let him free, Then

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<v Speaker 1>what do you do?

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<v Speaker 2>And people just took took the rumor and ran kind

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<v Speaker 2>of exactly.

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<v Speaker 1>Even if you do a press conference, you can't have

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<v Speaker 1>a press conference with cameras and news sources, like as

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<v Speaker 1>someone is walking out the door. You've got to get

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<v Speaker 1>fact straight. You got to set stuff up like it

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<v Speaker 1>takes time.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's too bad though.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So anyways, I wanted to drive that moral home

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<v Speaker 1>that the two wrongs thing don't make a right, so

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<v Speaker 1>it don't take like, don't take these things into your

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<v Speaker 1>own hands. You know, the law generally speaking, anyways, not

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<v Speaker 1>always as we know in this show, generally speaking, will

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<v Speaker 1>at least do its best to try and make those rights.

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<v Speaker 1>But anyways, I digress. So while this was all going on,

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<v Speaker 1>a woman seemed to recognize the grainy figures from the

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<v Speaker 1>footage that was released, and she recognized them as Robert

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<v Speaker 1>Thompson and John Venables, known as two young troublemakers in

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<v Speaker 1>the area. Now, quick check of the school registry would

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00:17:24.240 --> 00:17:27.599
<v Speaker 1>actually provide a very solid alibi for the two, right,

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00:17:27.720 --> 00:17:31.440
<v Speaker 1>Like if they're in school, their attendance is there, then

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00:17:31.480 --> 00:17:33.559
<v Speaker 1>how could they have been the ones at the mall right?

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<v Speaker 1>Unfortunately this confirmed their absence from class that very same

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<v Speaker 1>day when James had vanished.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh boy, they.

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<v Speaker 1>Were not at school. So it was on Thursday, February eighteenth.

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<v Speaker 1>The police decided they needed to act quickly on this

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<v Speaker 1>new information. Undercover officers in playing clothes and unmarked cars

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00:17:55.839 --> 00:17:58.839
<v Speaker 1>were dispatched to arrest both the boys. Because they learned

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<v Speaker 1>from that first incident, they wanted to keep this as

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<v Speaker 1>quiet as point.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, they learned from that. That's good. Yes, that's something

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<v Speaker 2>you can only ever hope for.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so they wanted to keep it quieter than last time.

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<v Speaker 1>What if it's a mistake, even if it's not, you

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<v Speaker 1>want to make sure that you you deal with this

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<v Speaker 1>properly and that it doesn't explode into something more.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, yeah, what's the saying innocent until proven guilty?

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<v Speaker 1>Exactly? So. Robert Thompson was a ten year old boy.

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<v Speaker 1>He was with his mom and two or sorry, he

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00:18:26.480 --> 00:18:29.440
<v Speaker 1>lives lived with his mom and two younger brothers. Now

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<v Speaker 1>interestingly enough, which I and me play some insight into

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<v Speaker 1>Robert's upbringing and behavior. His four older brothers had all

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<v Speaker 1>been taken into foster care. So he had lived with

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<v Speaker 1>you know, his two younger brothers, but he had four

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<v Speaker 1>older ones. They don't live with him anymore. Foster care

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00:18:44.559 --> 00:18:48.119
<v Speaker 1>sort of situation, right, So might provide some insight. And

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00:18:48.119 --> 00:18:50.480
<v Speaker 1>there's a lot of psychology stuff behind this case that

337
00:18:50.519 --> 00:18:52.640
<v Speaker 1>people talk about, but we're not diving into that, but

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<v Speaker 1>just a little tidbit for food for thought. So upon

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<v Speaker 1>arrival for Robert Thompson's arrest, the police quickly noted the

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<v Speaker 1>proximity of his house and just how close it was

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<v Speaker 1>to the scene where James's body was found. Rather close. Now,

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00:19:10.519 --> 00:19:13.759
<v Speaker 1>John Venables was also ten years old, and he came

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<v Speaker 1>from a family with divorced parents since he was only

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<v Speaker 1>three years old when his parents would ultimately that from

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00:19:19.359 --> 00:19:22.440
<v Speaker 1>then on share joint custody of him and his two siblings.

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<v Speaker 1>When police arrived to arrest him, he had appeared at

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<v Speaker 1>the top of the staircase before the officers. They were

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00:19:30.160 --> 00:19:35.440
<v Speaker 1>immediately taken aback. Here he stood staring down, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>to the officers as they looked up to him, a

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<v Speaker 1>possible killer. He was only ten years old and was

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00:19:43.480 --> 00:19:47.480
<v Speaker 1>very unusually small and timid looking for his age. The

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<v Speaker 1>police are making eye contact with what could be a murderer, Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Which would not be what they normally are expecting. Definitely,

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<v Speaker 2>not someone who did something like that.

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<v Speaker 1>This small child could potentially be responsible for this, yeight.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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00:20:03.519 --> 00:20:06.480
<v Speaker 1>And the officer's mind though, it immediately became because of

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00:20:06.519 --> 00:20:09.839
<v Speaker 1>this seeing this, this individual, they're looking at this, like

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<v Speaker 1>I said, already child, Yeah, they became it became increasingly

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<v Speaker 1>evident to them basically at this little ten year old

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<v Speaker 1>boy that they were staring at, I mean now in

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<v Speaker 1>handcuffs and in their custody, couldn't possibly be the one

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<v Speaker 1>responsible for what had happened to James. These two boys

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<v Speaker 1>that they have in custody, how could they be responsible? Right?

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<v Speaker 2>Well? Ten? Yeah, ten years old is very young.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. So even when they had these two in custody,

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<v Speaker 1>they were actually still pressing for answers from the public

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<v Speaker 1>and trying to get more information. They were certain that

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<v Speaker 1>there must be two older boys out there that they've

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<v Speaker 1>mistaken these two for, and that they're actually looking for

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<v Speaker 1>other individuals. But still they're doing their due diligence and

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<v Speaker 1>they're looking into these two and where they were, and

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<v Speaker 1>you know, of course what people had said or the tips.

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<v Speaker 2>Or whatever, right, So, yeah, because you think, just off

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<v Speaker 2>the top of my head that you would be thinking

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<v Speaker 2>the they would be at least fourteen, like fifteen or

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<v Speaker 2>sixteen or something and all, not ten.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. No, these aren't even teenagers. Yeah, they're not even thirteen.

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<v Speaker 1>They're not even twelve, they're not eleven, they're ten. They've

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<v Speaker 1>just entered enter double digit numbers.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's like a preteen.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, barely barely a preteen really. So, while dismissing the

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<v Speaker 1>boys as potential murderers, Superintended and Intendered Intendant Albert Kirby

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<v Speaker 1>was still ear to question both of them. He and

385
00:21:31.279 --> 00:21:34.079
<v Speaker 1>every other single officer involved was convinced that they were looking,

386
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<v Speaker 1>as I mentioned, for older teens, but still they pressed forward.

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<v Speaker 1>On Thursday, February eighteenth, the interview with the two boys

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<v Speaker 1>began the same day of their arrest. Thompson found himself

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<v Speaker 1>at Walton Lane Police Station, while Venables was taken to

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<v Speaker 1>Liverpool's Lower Lane Police station. Both boys underwent the process

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00:21:51.200 --> 00:21:56.000
<v Speaker 1>at providing blood, hair and fingernail samples. With this process,

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00:21:56.119 --> 00:22:01.519
<v Speaker 1>the police ventured into uncharted territory regarding both questions and investigations,

393
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<v Speaker 1>since no one had ever interviewed potential child murder suspects before.

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<v Speaker 1>Many of their tactics are tailored to adults and how

395
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<v Speaker 1>their psychology works, but with children, everything is different, and

396
00:22:15.680 --> 00:22:18.319
<v Speaker 1>it left investigators stumped as to how they should really

397
00:22:18.400 --> 00:22:19.759
<v Speaker 1>approach the situation.

398
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<v Speaker 2>Well, yeah, because you're almost thinking too, you probably have

399
00:22:22.519 --> 00:22:27.400
<v Speaker 2>to have like parents consent on so much too. I

400
00:22:27.440 --> 00:22:28.720
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't even know how that would work.

401
00:22:28.720 --> 00:22:31.480
<v Speaker 1>Actually, well, I mean there's certain things like that. I

402
00:22:31.480 --> 00:22:35.200
<v Speaker 1>don't think consent really matters, because I mean, this is

403
00:22:35.240 --> 00:22:39.720
<v Speaker 1>an investigation potential murder. Like rights only go so far

404
00:22:40.160 --> 00:22:42.720
<v Speaker 1>no matter what your age is, right, Like, if if

405
00:22:42.720 --> 00:22:44.960
<v Speaker 1>you're a murder suspect, it's not like, well, you can't

406
00:22:44.960 --> 00:22:47.359
<v Speaker 1>talk to my child. It's my child, I'll discipline as

407
00:22:47.440 --> 00:22:48.640
<v Speaker 1>what I mean, that's not how it's going to go

408
00:22:48.680 --> 00:22:50.880
<v Speaker 1>on a murder investigation, right I guess.

409
00:22:50.960 --> 00:22:54.119
<v Speaker 2>So, yeah, just the thought of them taking your kid though, you.

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00:22:54.079 --> 00:22:57.160
<v Speaker 1>Know, yeah, no fair enough, But I mean that goes

411
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<v Speaker 1>with adults. Hey that's my that's my twenty year old,

412
00:22:59.599 --> 00:23:02.640
<v Speaker 1>eight years old boy, Like you can't do he's innocent? Yeah,

413
00:23:02.680 --> 00:23:06.559
<v Speaker 1>sure he is, Grandma, So it's the same sort of situation.

414
00:23:06.799 --> 00:23:08.759
<v Speaker 1>Rights only go so far when you commit a crime,

415
00:23:09.240 --> 00:23:12.680
<v Speaker 1>so true. But one thing that they really needed to

416
00:23:12.680 --> 00:23:14.640
<v Speaker 1>do though, and this was the biggest part of it.

417
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<v Speaker 1>Whatever they did, they needed to ensure that it was

418
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<v Speaker 1>clear that the boys comprehended the gravity of their statements

419
00:23:20.400 --> 00:23:24.920
<v Speaker 1>to police, and they understood the distinctions between truth and falsehood,

420
00:23:24.960 --> 00:23:27.519
<v Speaker 1>you know, right or wrong. That was the biggest thing,

421
00:23:27.599 --> 00:23:31.240
<v Speaker 1>ensuring that they understand this, Like adults understand this concept

422
00:23:31.440 --> 00:23:34.599
<v Speaker 1>rather easily, of course, aside from like someone struggling with

423
00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:38.599
<v Speaker 1>mental health or other issues that prevent certain cognitive understandings.

424
00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:41.759
<v Speaker 1>But children, on the other hand, don't necessarily know this

425
00:23:41.839 --> 00:23:42.319
<v Speaker 1>so much.

426
00:23:42.599 --> 00:23:43.839
<v Speaker 2>Right, They're still learning it.

427
00:23:43.960 --> 00:23:47.039
<v Speaker 1>They're still learning it, their brains are still developing, right.

428
00:23:47.319 --> 00:23:50.599
<v Speaker 1>So this was the first and foremost thing that officers

429
00:23:50.599 --> 00:23:54.759
<v Speaker 1>needed to ensure that occurred. They began by administering very

430
00:23:54.799 --> 00:23:58.279
<v Speaker 1>specific questions that were designed to ascertain if these boys

431
00:23:58.319 --> 00:24:01.640
<v Speaker 1>did in fact understand the important piece of the puzzle,

432
00:24:02.279 --> 00:24:05.920
<v Speaker 1>like do you understand how significant this is? Do you

433
00:24:06.039 --> 00:24:09.599
<v Speaker 1>understand right? Wrong? All of that now. Both boys passed

434
00:24:09.599 --> 00:24:12.079
<v Speaker 1>this questioning, and it paved the way for the interrogation

435
00:24:12.160 --> 00:24:16.680
<v Speaker 1>to finally begin. Accompanied by their mothers and legal representation,

436
00:24:17.279 --> 00:24:21.079
<v Speaker 1>both boys faced the police questioning with varying degrees of composure,

437
00:24:22.000 --> 00:24:28.200
<v Speaker 1>Venables displayed his youth with hysterical and was gripped quite

438
00:24:28.240 --> 00:24:32.240
<v Speaker 1>a bit by fear. Understandably, you're being interrogated by officers

439
00:24:32.240 --> 00:24:35.759
<v Speaker 1>for potential murder, right, and he was expressing like a

440
00:24:35.839 --> 00:24:38.799
<v Speaker 1>lot of fear about the prospect of going to jail.

441
00:24:39.480 --> 00:24:43.200
<v Speaker 2>So, I mean I understand that, like at these ten well, yeah,

442
00:24:43.200 --> 00:24:45.759
<v Speaker 2>because I'm just thinking, if they did do something bad,

443
00:24:46.200 --> 00:24:48.720
<v Speaker 2>would a ten year old really be able to keep

444
00:24:48.759 --> 00:24:51.200
<v Speaker 2>would they really you know, hide it or hold it in?

445
00:24:51.559 --> 00:24:56.079
<v Speaker 1>Well. In contrast, Thompson remained controlled and composed through the

446
00:24:56.079 --> 00:25:00.440
<v Speaker 1>whole ordeal. Oh shit, yes, oh, which is very surprising

447
00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:04.599
<v Speaker 1>and almost scary for someone of that age. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

448
00:25:04.599 --> 00:25:07.279
<v Speaker 1>I mean many adults struggle through this sort of stuff.

449
00:25:07.279 --> 00:25:10.240
<v Speaker 1>I've seen many adults in in interrogation videos lose their

450
00:25:10.240 --> 00:25:14.079
<v Speaker 1>composure and lose it rather fast too. Where in this situation, no,

451
00:25:14.200 --> 00:25:15.160
<v Speaker 1>he held himself together.

452
00:25:15.759 --> 00:25:17.799
<v Speaker 2>Okay, that is a bit alarming to me.

453
00:25:17.920 --> 00:25:18.720
<v Speaker 1>He's terrifying.

454
00:25:18.960 --> 00:25:20.039
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

455
00:25:20.119 --> 00:25:23.440
<v Speaker 1>So during the interviews, Venables admitted to being in the

456
00:25:23.480 --> 00:25:27.200
<v Speaker 1>Vicinity on the day that James disappeared, but omitted any

457
00:25:27.279 --> 00:25:30.559
<v Speaker 1>mention of the stround shopping center, which is where he

458
00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:34.480
<v Speaker 1>went missing and the footage was taken from. Eventually, though,

459
00:25:34.759 --> 00:25:39.039
<v Speaker 1>Thompson disclosed their presence at that shopping mall and provided

460
00:25:39.039 --> 00:25:45.160
<v Speaker 1>authorities with detailed descriptions of James's attire. So there was

461
00:25:45.160 --> 00:25:48.079
<v Speaker 1>a detailed description that was released by James's mother trying,

462
00:25:48.119 --> 00:25:49.960
<v Speaker 1>you know, like missing child, Here's what he's wearing.

463
00:25:50.079 --> 00:25:50.799
<v Speaker 2>Right. Yeah.

464
00:25:50.839 --> 00:25:54.279
<v Speaker 1>However, police were very taken aback by his intimate knowledge

465
00:25:54.319 --> 00:25:58.599
<v Speaker 1>of James's clothing, Like, I don't know to what details

466
00:25:58.599 --> 00:26:01.079
<v Speaker 1>he was able to give, but mutt more than what

467
00:26:01.160 --> 00:26:02.160
<v Speaker 1>was released to the public.

468
00:26:02.240 --> 00:26:03.759
<v Speaker 2>Oh okay, Yeah.

469
00:26:03.559 --> 00:26:08.000
<v Speaker 1>This was an extremely significant piece and it suggested prolonged

470
00:26:08.039 --> 00:26:14.119
<v Speaker 1>contact with James. So before long, Thompson would ultimately confess

471
00:26:14.519 --> 00:26:19.039
<v Speaker 1>that he and Venables had indeed taken James Bulger away

472
00:26:19.160 --> 00:26:23.319
<v Speaker 1>from the shopping center. They were the two individuals seen

473
00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:26.759
<v Speaker 1>on that CCTV footage leading him away.

474
00:26:26.960 --> 00:26:30.119
<v Speaker 2>And Thompson was the one that was hysterical too, right,

475
00:26:30.359 --> 00:26:31.200
<v Speaker 2>you said.

476
00:26:32.000 --> 00:26:36.000
<v Speaker 1>Hold on, I got a double check. No Venables was

477
00:26:36.039 --> 00:26:38.680
<v Speaker 1>Thompson was the one who means i'mcom coal collective.

478
00:26:38.839 --> 00:26:41.640
<v Speaker 2>Oh okay, okay.

479
00:26:42.200 --> 00:26:45.599
<v Speaker 1>So the truth, basically though, was now beginning to come out.

480
00:26:45.640 --> 00:26:47.359
<v Speaker 1>And it didn't take long for the two boys to

481
00:26:47.400 --> 00:26:49.640
<v Speaker 1>begin to actually turn on each other and start playing

482
00:26:49.680 --> 00:26:53.359
<v Speaker 1>the blame game a bit. They were each shifting responsibility

483
00:26:53.359 --> 00:26:55.839
<v Speaker 1>onto the other and obscuring the facts and what their

484
00:26:55.839 --> 00:27:02.279
<v Speaker 1>involvement really was. Now. Thompson's testimony underwent five distinct alterations

485
00:27:02.319 --> 00:27:05.759
<v Speaker 1>over the course of two days of relentless questioning. However,

486
00:27:05.839 --> 00:27:11.200
<v Speaker 1>it was a seemingly innocuous question from Venables about if

487
00:27:11.240 --> 00:27:14.759
<v Speaker 1>you can recover fingerprints off skin that set a very

488
00:27:14.799 --> 00:27:17.440
<v Speaker 1>significant alarm bell for investigators.

489
00:27:17.880 --> 00:27:21.599
<v Speaker 2>That is a question and a half. Hey, yeah, oh

490
00:27:21.720 --> 00:27:24.480
<v Speaker 2>my gosh, that would make it I feel like if

491
00:27:24.519 --> 00:27:27.759
<v Speaker 2>you were in this scenario and you were the kid

492
00:27:27.839 --> 00:27:29.640
<v Speaker 2>asked that like, that would just make the like hairs

493
00:27:29.640 --> 00:27:30.359
<v Speaker 2>on the back of your neck.

494
00:27:30.480 --> 00:27:35.839
<v Speaker 1>Right one, Why is he asking exactly like he's asked,

495
00:27:35.839 --> 00:27:39.400
<v Speaker 1>like he knows something, He's hiding something. There's crucial information

496
00:27:39.519 --> 00:27:42.279
<v Speaker 1>that's going on here. Why is he gonna ask, can

497
00:27:42.319 --> 00:27:45.279
<v Speaker 1>you recover fingerprints off someone's skin?

498
00:27:45.519 --> 00:27:47.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Because you may not know that. He could have

499
00:27:47.319 --> 00:27:48.359
<v Speaker 2>just googled that at home.

500
00:27:48.640 --> 00:27:50.160
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, just kidding, I'm kidding.

501
00:27:50.160 --> 00:27:52.680
<v Speaker 2>That's a terrible joke. That is very alarming.

502
00:27:53.400 --> 00:27:56.880
<v Speaker 1>Your joke or what he said the question, how about

503
00:27:56.920 --> 00:27:57.880
<v Speaker 1>both kidding?

504
00:27:58.000 --> 00:27:58.200
<v Speaker 2>Yes?

505
00:27:59.160 --> 00:28:01.680
<v Speaker 1>Anyways, So as the interrogation went on, the police began

506
00:28:01.720 --> 00:28:05.559
<v Speaker 1>to notice a troubling pattern in Thompson's behavior. Whenever James

507
00:28:05.599 --> 00:28:09.400
<v Speaker 1>was mentioned, his anxiety seemed to manifest in subtle physical cues,

508
00:28:09.720 --> 00:28:12.960
<v Speaker 1>such as shuffling his legs a bit. More so, it seemed,

509
00:28:13.279 --> 00:28:15.400
<v Speaker 1>you know, just the mention of James's name it made

510
00:28:15.480 --> 00:28:18.960
<v Speaker 1>him very uncomfortable or nervous, almost as if bringing up

511
00:28:19.000 --> 00:28:22.400
<v Speaker 1>some vivid memories or potentially even PTSD.

512
00:28:22.920 --> 00:28:24.160
<v Speaker 2>So that's what I was thinking.

513
00:28:24.240 --> 00:28:27.319
<v Speaker 1>So there's some alarming red flags going off with both

514
00:28:27.559 --> 00:28:33.240
<v Speaker 1>these boys. By lunchtime on February nineteenth, Thompson finally confessed

515
00:28:33.240 --> 00:28:34.920
<v Speaker 1>that the two of them indeed made their way to

516
00:28:34.960 --> 00:28:39.000
<v Speaker 1>the railway tracks with James. It was a moment that

517
00:28:39.079 --> 00:28:42.960
<v Speaker 1>I am sure investigators will never forget because in this instance,

518
00:28:43.200 --> 00:28:47.640
<v Speaker 1>Thompson even impersonated James pleading and crying for his mother

519
00:28:48.119 --> 00:28:50.000
<v Speaker 1>as they brought him to the tracks.

520
00:28:51.920 --> 00:28:58.359
<v Speaker 3>Gosh, okay, I cannot imagine being in the room watching

521
00:28:58.440 --> 00:29:04.359
<v Speaker 3>this ten year old imitate a two year old.

522
00:29:04.279 --> 00:29:10.119
<v Speaker 1>Child who's terrified, screaming for his mom. And you know

523
00:29:11.039 --> 00:29:12.960
<v Speaker 1>that some bloody shit.

524
00:29:12.880 --> 00:29:17.799
<v Speaker 2>Happened next, it would just be it would be so

525
00:29:17.960 --> 00:29:20.240
<v Speaker 2>mind blowing. It would be a case that just once

526
00:29:20.319 --> 00:29:23.559
<v Speaker 2>in a you know, blue like it would never happen again.

527
00:29:23.680 --> 00:29:27.880
<v Speaker 1>I really hope it fucking won't, that's for sure. So yeah,

528
00:29:27.920 --> 00:29:30.759
<v Speaker 1>it was an impersonation that was so disturbing authorities. It

529
00:29:30.839 --> 00:29:33.000
<v Speaker 1>sends shivers down their spines, and it's like doing the

530
00:29:33.039 --> 00:29:36.680
<v Speaker 1>same for me. So I totally understand. And meanwhile, nearing

531
00:29:36.720 --> 00:29:40.119
<v Speaker 1>one pm, Venables found himself alone with his parents in

532
00:29:40.240 --> 00:29:43.799
<v Speaker 1>the interrogation room and reaching a breaking point under the

533
00:29:43.799 --> 00:29:48.240
<v Speaker 1>weight of guilt, he actually tearfully confessed to his involvement

534
00:29:48.319 --> 00:29:54.039
<v Speaker 1>in James's murder. They were unaware that police were tentatively

535
00:29:54.079 --> 00:29:57.319
<v Speaker 1>listening to every word. You're an interrogation room. When will

536
00:29:57.359 --> 00:29:59.519
<v Speaker 1>people understand you're not alone?

537
00:30:00.200 --> 00:30:03.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, I mean I get that the boy wouldn't understand, yeah,

538
00:30:03.480 --> 00:30:06.720
<v Speaker 2>for sure, but the parents, hey, yeah.

539
00:30:06.079 --> 00:30:10.640
<v Speaker 1>So he admitted fully to his involvement in James's murder.

540
00:30:10.680 --> 00:30:16.079
<v Speaker 2>But maybe the parents would have, you know. Later confessed that, yeah, I.

541
00:30:16.039 --> 00:30:18.480
<v Speaker 1>Know, I'm not saying I'm not saying they wouldn't, but

542
00:30:18.519 --> 00:30:21.240
<v Speaker 1>it's just there's so many cases out there when it's

543
00:30:21.240 --> 00:30:24.279
<v Speaker 1>like people are like acting different or talking different when

544
00:30:24.279 --> 00:30:25.839
<v Speaker 1>the police are not in the room. It's just like

545
00:30:26.119 --> 00:30:29.480
<v Speaker 1>you are in a station. You are being monitored. Yeah,

546
00:30:29.519 --> 00:30:31.799
<v Speaker 1>I don't care if you cannot see the equipment it

547
00:30:31.880 --> 00:30:32.319
<v Speaker 1>is there.

548
00:30:32.839 --> 00:30:34.759
<v Speaker 2>Just there's just that thing about being in a closed

549
00:30:34.839 --> 00:30:37.319
<v Speaker 2>room and a closed door. You know, you just think

550
00:30:37.319 --> 00:30:39.480
<v Speaker 2>you're safe in a way, and.

551
00:30:39.440 --> 00:30:43.519
<v Speaker 1>Police use that to their advantage. Guaranteed, guaranteed. So it was

552
00:30:43.559 --> 00:30:46.519
<v Speaker 1>with this revelation that the authorities were able to confront

553
00:30:46.559 --> 00:30:49.279
<v Speaker 1>Thompson because it was Venables, who you know, was the

554
00:30:49.279 --> 00:30:51.160
<v Speaker 1>one who said this week. They go over to Thompson

555
00:30:51.599 --> 00:30:54.559
<v Speaker 1>and despite his steadfast denial of guilt in James's death,

556
00:30:54.599 --> 00:30:58.440
<v Speaker 1>the police believed they now had a mass submission sufficient

557
00:30:58.519 --> 00:31:00.920
<v Speaker 1>evidence against both of them. So even though they brought

558
00:31:00.920 --> 00:31:02.680
<v Speaker 1>this to Thompson, he's like, yeah, I don't know, you know,

559
00:31:02.720 --> 00:31:03.880
<v Speaker 1>well I didn't do it. I don't know what he's

560
00:31:03.880 --> 00:31:06.680
<v Speaker 1>talking about. They're like, yeah, okay, sure, we still have

561
00:31:06.799 --> 00:31:08.920
<v Speaker 1>enough evidence. We're going for this.

562
00:31:09.200 --> 00:31:10.799
<v Speaker 2>Still just hold and strong.

563
00:31:11.119 --> 00:31:11.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

564
00:31:11.480 --> 00:31:11.920
<v Speaker 2>Wow.

565
00:31:12.759 --> 00:31:14.880
<v Speaker 1>So the two boys they initially thought could have not

566
00:31:15.160 --> 00:31:17.599
<v Speaker 1>been the ones to do this horrific crime, now they

567
00:31:17.640 --> 00:31:21.640
<v Speaker 1>had enough evidence to indeed confirm they were responsible. And

568
00:31:21.680 --> 00:31:24.640
<v Speaker 1>on Saturday, February twentieth, nineteen ninety three, the boys were

569
00:31:24.640 --> 00:31:30.640
<v Speaker 1>officially informally charged with the abduction and murder of James Bulger, who,

570
00:31:30.759 --> 00:31:34.880
<v Speaker 1>let me once again repeat it, he was two and

571
00:31:35.319 --> 00:31:37.240
<v Speaker 1>Thompson and Venables were ten.

572
00:31:38.279 --> 00:31:42.720
<v Speaker 2>Wow, I mean, you feel sick about all of it,

573
00:31:43.279 --> 00:31:46.519
<v Speaker 2>but like I don't want I almost feel them being

574
00:31:46.599 --> 00:31:51.039
<v Speaker 2>ten takes away from James's death, you know, but really

575
00:31:51.079 --> 00:31:55.759
<v Speaker 2>that is like the main thing, the main it's all sad,

576
00:31:55.799 --> 00:31:58.960
<v Speaker 2>but that's the main brutal outcome of.

577
00:31:58.920 --> 00:32:03.200
<v Speaker 1>This one percent is Yeah, if anything, I honestly think

578
00:32:03.200 --> 00:32:07.359
<v Speaker 1>the fact that they are ten makes it worse to me,

579
00:32:07.640 --> 00:32:09.920
<v Speaker 1>because it's like, how can these two ten year.

580
00:32:09.759 --> 00:32:12.400
<v Speaker 2>Olds even think of doing something like that?

581
00:32:12.519 --> 00:32:14.400
<v Speaker 1>Yes, yeah, so, don't get me wrong, Like, my heart

582
00:32:14.480 --> 00:32:17.599
<v Speaker 1>is fucking broken for James, but it breaks even more

583
00:32:17.599 --> 00:32:20.839
<v Speaker 1>to think that his life was taken by two ten

584
00:32:20.920 --> 00:32:24.920
<v Speaker 1>year olds, because at that age, you're supposed to be innocent.

585
00:32:25.400 --> 00:32:28.079
<v Speaker 1>You're supposed to be happy, you're supposed to like, you know.

586
00:32:28.799 --> 00:32:31.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you're supposed to be like playing, you know, making

587
00:32:31.440 --> 00:32:32.759
<v Speaker 2>forts in the woods and shit.

588
00:32:32.920 --> 00:32:37.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and so one innocent life was taken by two

589
00:32:37.319 --> 00:32:41.240
<v Speaker 1>other supposedly innocent lives, which makes it all the worse.

590
00:32:41.480 --> 00:32:44.240
<v Speaker 2>It does. Yeah, but I'm just what I'm trying to

591
00:32:44.240 --> 00:32:45.960
<v Speaker 2>say is like, just because they're ten, I don't want

592
00:32:46.000 --> 00:32:48.039
<v Speaker 2>to It almost seems like it takes away from what

593
00:32:48.119 --> 00:32:49.480
<v Speaker 2>happened to poor little James.

594
00:32:49.480 --> 00:32:52.279
<v Speaker 1>And yeah, or we haven't even really got into what

595
00:32:52.519 --> 00:32:54.039
<v Speaker 1>actually happened to James or are.

596
00:32:54.039 --> 00:32:55.880
<v Speaker 2>We going to get into that a bit?

597
00:32:56.000 --> 00:32:59.880
<v Speaker 1>Yes, okay, well bear with me here, We're we're getting

598
00:33:00.079 --> 00:33:03.720
<v Speaker 1>to the trial. So during their initial appearance, around five

599
00:33:03.920 --> 00:33:07.559
<v Speaker 1>hundred protesters formed as an angry mob and gathered outside

600
00:33:07.559 --> 00:33:12.359
<v Speaker 1>the courtroom. I mean, underscoring the immense controversy and high tempers,

601
00:33:12.400 --> 00:33:15.640
<v Speaker 1>you know, surrounding this whole case and the intensity of

602
00:33:15.680 --> 00:33:18.839
<v Speaker 1>public outrage even targeted the parents of the accused, and

603
00:33:18.880 --> 00:33:21.880
<v Speaker 1>as a result, they had to relocate to different parts

604
00:33:21.880 --> 00:33:25.200
<v Speaker 1>of the country and were provided with new identities under

605
00:33:25.200 --> 00:33:28.599
<v Speaker 1>the Witness Protection Program due to death threats from vigilantes.

606
00:33:28.720 --> 00:33:31.039
<v Speaker 2>Oh man, well, I mean it's not unexpected from what

607
00:33:31.079 --> 00:33:33.359
<v Speaker 2>they did to that other boy, right, Yeah.

608
00:33:33.400 --> 00:33:35.920
<v Speaker 1>So basically, yeah, they're like they're blaming the parents, right

609
00:33:35.960 --> 00:33:38.880
<v Speaker 1>because they're ten. They're ten, Yeah, like you raised this,

610
00:33:39.160 --> 00:33:42.759
<v Speaker 1>you did this, Like what the fuck. So yeah. Now.

611
00:33:42.759 --> 00:33:45.839
<v Speaker 1>The trial commenced on November one, nineteen ninety three, and

612
00:33:46.000 --> 00:33:50.039
<v Speaker 1>was conducted as an adult trial, despite the boy's young

613
00:33:50.160 --> 00:33:53.319
<v Speaker 1>age of ok now at the time, being eleven years old.

614
00:33:53.319 --> 00:33:53.880
<v Speaker 1>As they walked to.

615
00:33:53.839 --> 00:33:56.039
<v Speaker 2>The courtroom, I was wondering how they're going to deal

616
00:33:56.079 --> 00:33:56.319
<v Speaker 2>with this.

617
00:33:56.720 --> 00:34:01.160
<v Speaker 1>Yes, they conducted it as an adult trial. Both Thompson

618
00:34:01.279 --> 00:34:06.559
<v Speaker 1>and Venables denied the charges of murder, abduction and attempted abduction.

619
00:34:07.480 --> 00:34:10.639
<v Speaker 1>So the attempted abduction charge came from a related incident

620
00:34:10.960 --> 00:34:13.599
<v Speaker 1>excuse me that very same day at the very same

621
00:34:13.719 --> 00:34:18.000
<v Speaker 1>shopping center, because Thompson Invenables had attempted to lead away

622
00:34:18.039 --> 00:34:20.440
<v Speaker 1>another two year old boy but were thwarted by the

623
00:34:20.440 --> 00:34:21.039
<v Speaker 1>boy's mother.

624
00:34:22.159 --> 00:34:24.480
<v Speaker 2>Seriously, Yes, so.

625
00:34:24.400 --> 00:34:28.639
<v Speaker 1>They tried once, were unsuccessful, and tried again, and god.

626
00:34:28.559 --> 00:34:32.800
<v Speaker 2>James, oh gosh.

627
00:34:31.360 --> 00:34:33.519
<v Speaker 1>And who knows they potentially could have tried with others

628
00:34:33.519 --> 00:34:37.639
<v Speaker 1>but were not caught or successful as well. Wow, yes,

629
00:34:37.960 --> 00:34:41.000
<v Speaker 1>so this was very clearly premeditated.

630
00:34:41.760 --> 00:34:42.039
<v Speaker 2>Yep.

631
00:34:42.719 --> 00:34:45.639
<v Speaker 1>Seated in full view of the court on raised chairs

632
00:34:45.639 --> 00:34:49.119
<v Speaker 1>of wo which both boys could actually see, You're kidding.

633
00:34:49.440 --> 00:34:52.800
<v Speaker 1>They were accompanied by two social workers and guards as

634
00:34:52.840 --> 00:34:57.159
<v Speaker 1>the story unfolded. As it went Thompson invenables had set

635
00:34:57.159 --> 00:35:00.760
<v Speaker 1>out with the intention of abducting a young boy, ultimately

636
00:35:00.960 --> 00:35:04.280
<v Speaker 1>targeting James. They led him to the nearby train tracks,

637
00:35:04.599 --> 00:35:07.519
<v Speaker 1>where they callously beat him and laid him down on

638
00:35:07.599 --> 00:35:10.800
<v Speaker 1>the tracks before weighing his head down with rubble, hoping

639
00:35:10.840 --> 00:35:15.679
<v Speaker 1>to stage his death as an accident on the train tracks. Tragically,

640
00:35:15.760 --> 00:35:19.480
<v Speaker 1>James's body was severed by a passing train after they

641
00:35:19.719 --> 00:35:24.119
<v Speaker 1>left the scene. His dismembered remains were eventually discovered by

642
00:35:24.119 --> 00:35:28.159
<v Speaker 1>a group of children two days later. During the trial,

643
00:35:28.280 --> 00:35:32.679
<v Speaker 1>a forensic pathologist provided crucial testimony affirming that James had

644
00:35:32.719 --> 00:35:37.679
<v Speaker 1>died before being struck by the train. This revelation added

645
00:35:37.719 --> 00:35:40.639
<v Speaker 1>a very chilling layer of what could have transpired before

646
00:35:40.719 --> 00:35:45.039
<v Speaker 1>the train even arrived, and the you know, already horrifying.

647
00:35:45.440 --> 00:35:48.039
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean I was going to ask that, but

648
00:35:48.119 --> 00:35:54.519
<v Speaker 2>I was like, do I also want to know? Huh? Not?

649
00:35:54.599 --> 00:35:58.320
<v Speaker 1>Really? Yeah, if I'm being fair, I kind of omitted

650
00:35:58.480 --> 00:36:02.800
<v Speaker 1>searching up Much of the details known, but even still

651
00:36:02.960 --> 00:36:05.679
<v Speaker 1>not many of the details are.

652
00:36:05.679 --> 00:36:09.079
<v Speaker 2>Known, which is probably a good thing. Yes, I mean,

653
00:36:09.199 --> 00:36:11.679
<v Speaker 2>for like James and James's family.

654
00:36:11.440 --> 00:36:15.239
<v Speaker 1>Right, yes, definitely. However, I do have some more details

655
00:36:15.280 --> 00:36:19.440
<v Speaker 1>regarding it to share with you. Police had also suspected

656
00:36:20.519 --> 00:36:23.800
<v Speaker 1>or they had suspicions of a sexual assault aspect to this,

657
00:36:24.480 --> 00:36:27.679
<v Speaker 1>and it was fueled by the fact that James's shoes, socks, pants,

658
00:36:27.719 --> 00:36:33.039
<v Speaker 1>and underwear had been removed. The pathologist's report was read

659
00:36:33.039 --> 00:36:37.159
<v Speaker 1>out in court and it revealed an additional, very disturbing detail.

660
00:36:38.519 --> 00:36:42.320
<v Speaker 1>James's foreskin had also been forcibly being pulled back, which

661
00:36:42.400 --> 00:36:44.519
<v Speaker 1>for some young boys may not be a natural thing

662
00:36:44.559 --> 00:36:46.239
<v Speaker 1>to occur at such a young age.

663
00:36:47.119 --> 00:36:53.000
<v Speaker 2>Holy shit, you're an oh okay really.

664
00:36:53.199 --> 00:36:56.079
<v Speaker 1>When questioned about this aspect of the attack by detectives

665
00:36:57.079 --> 00:37:00.840
<v Speaker 1>and a child psychiatrist named Eileen Wizard, Tom and Inventibles

666
00:37:00.880 --> 00:37:02.599
<v Speaker 1>did not provide any details.

667
00:37:03.719 --> 00:37:09.159
<v Speaker 2>What the actual fuck? Huh okay?

668
00:37:10.199 --> 00:37:15.880
<v Speaker 1>So leading him to the tracks, they assaulted him in

669
00:37:16.039 --> 00:37:19.800
<v Speaker 1>many manners, beat him, tortured him, held him down with

670
00:37:19.960 --> 00:37:23.159
<v Speaker 1>rubble on the tracks in hopes of staging an accident.

671
00:37:23.599 --> 00:37:27.039
<v Speaker 1>After they left, he had died of the result of

672
00:37:27.039 --> 00:37:30.239
<v Speaker 1>what they did to him, and then his remains were

673
00:37:30.320 --> 00:37:32.960
<v Speaker 1>run over by a train and he was found two

674
00:37:33.039 --> 00:37:33.559
<v Speaker 1>days later.

675
00:37:33.679 --> 00:37:37.079
<v Speaker 2>And I'm sure that they went back after that to see,

676
00:37:37.079 --> 00:37:40.199
<v Speaker 2>like what the potentially because I'm trying to figure out,

677
00:37:40.199 --> 00:37:41.840
<v Speaker 2>like my brain just going a mile minute, Like what

678
00:37:41.880 --> 00:37:44.079
<v Speaker 2>the fuck they're like why, Like, why the hell are

679
00:37:44.079 --> 00:37:45.960
<v Speaker 2>they doing this? I don't know, but it has to

680
00:37:46.280 --> 00:37:47.800
<v Speaker 2>I feel like it has to be some sort of

681
00:37:47.800 --> 00:37:53.400
<v Speaker 2>like curiosity thing which is beyond disturbing. So I bet

682
00:37:53.400 --> 00:37:55.559
<v Speaker 2>you anything that they went back after to like.

683
00:37:55.559 --> 00:37:59.039
<v Speaker 1>See they could have There is one thing I have

684
00:37:59.199 --> 00:38:02.159
<v Speaker 1>in here that may provide some insight to that. But

685
00:38:02.239 --> 00:38:03.800
<v Speaker 1>we'll touch on it here in a little.

686
00:38:03.599 --> 00:38:04.320
<v Speaker 2>Bit, Okay.

687
00:38:06.280 --> 00:38:08.960
<v Speaker 1>So, Thompson and Venables were considered by the court to

688
00:38:08.960 --> 00:38:13.559
<v Speaker 1>be capable of quote mischievous discretion, meaning an ability to

689
00:38:13.639 --> 00:38:17.480
<v Speaker 1>act with criminal intent, as they were mature enough to

690
00:38:17.719 --> 00:38:21.800
<v Speaker 1>understand that they were doing something seriously wrong, hence, you know,

691
00:38:21.920 --> 00:38:25.760
<v Speaker 1>being tried as adults. Thompson was considered to have taken

692
00:38:25.760 --> 00:38:28.119
<v Speaker 1>the leading role in the abduction process, though it was

693
00:38:28.199 --> 00:38:31.519
<v Speaker 1>Venables who had apparently initiated the idea of taking James

694
00:38:31.559 --> 00:38:35.920
<v Speaker 1>to the railway track. Venables later described the heartbreaking part

695
00:38:35.920 --> 00:38:38.079
<v Speaker 1>of the story on how James seemed to like him

696
00:38:38.119 --> 00:38:41.159
<v Speaker 1>and trust him, holding his hand and allowing him to

697
00:38:41.199 --> 00:38:44.800
<v Speaker 1>even pick him up on the wandering journey to the tracks,

698
00:38:45.000 --> 00:38:47.480
<v Speaker 1>which would ultimately become his own murderer scene.

699
00:38:47.760 --> 00:38:50.519
<v Speaker 2>Oh my gosh, okay, I just can't get rid of

700
00:38:50.519 --> 00:38:52.400
<v Speaker 2>these fucking visuals in my mind.

701
00:38:52.360 --> 00:38:55.639
<v Speaker 1>Out I know, I can like literally fucking see James

702
00:38:55.800 --> 00:38:57.320
<v Speaker 1>reaching up for his hand.

703
00:38:57.320 --> 00:39:00.000
<v Speaker 2>Like a little two year old baby. Really. Yeah.

704
00:39:00.440 --> 00:39:04.079
<v Speaker 1>Oh so, the pathologist spent thirty three minutes in the

705
00:39:04.079 --> 00:39:07.840
<v Speaker 1>courtroom outlying the injury sustained by James, including extensive brain

706
00:39:07.920 --> 00:39:11.440
<v Speaker 1>damage and hemorrhaging. There were also many injuries to his legs,

707
00:39:11.440 --> 00:39:13.880
<v Speaker 1>which had been inflicted after he was stripped from the

708
00:39:13.880 --> 00:39:17.320
<v Speaker 1>waist down. It seems as though before the two boys

709
00:39:17.320 --> 00:39:19.280
<v Speaker 1>had pinned him down to be run out by the train.

710
00:39:19.440 --> 00:39:23.320
<v Speaker 1>That's when, you know, of course, we had already mentioned beating, abuse,

711
00:39:23.440 --> 00:39:26.880
<v Speaker 1>torture had occurred. There was also a lot of evidence

712
00:39:26.920 --> 00:39:31.119
<v Speaker 1>to suggest that much of this, you know, we just

713
00:39:31.159 --> 00:39:33.840
<v Speaker 1>don't know the true extend. We really don't.

714
00:39:34.119 --> 00:39:34.280
<v Speaker 2>Well.

715
00:39:34.360 --> 00:39:36.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So, as a results of the trial, the two

716
00:39:36.840 --> 00:39:39.840
<v Speaker 1>boys were found guilty of James Bulger's murder at the

717
00:39:39.880 --> 00:39:42.519
<v Speaker 1>Preston Court on the twenty fourth of November in nineteen

718
00:39:42.719 --> 00:39:47.800
<v Speaker 1>ninety three, becoming the youngest convicted murderers of the twentieth century.

719
00:39:48.119 --> 00:39:51.679
<v Speaker 2>Oh you know, and the mom was probably sitting in

720
00:39:51.719 --> 00:39:55.880
<v Speaker 2>there right, Yes, yes she was. Is I mean, like

721
00:39:56.440 --> 00:40:01.119
<v Speaker 2>we're here listening about this, and like, you know, it's

722
00:40:01.159 --> 00:40:04.400
<v Speaker 2>so disturbing, but I just can't even imagine being that

723
00:40:04.559 --> 00:40:05.239
<v Speaker 2>boy's mom.

724
00:40:05.400 --> 00:40:08.000
<v Speaker 1>Can you imagine learning the stuff that that child went through?

725
00:40:08.559 --> 00:40:12.639
<v Speaker 1>Your child, your little toy. Yeah, and it is one

726
00:40:12.760 --> 00:40:16.599
<v Speaker 1>hundred percent not her fault because you can hold on

727
00:40:16.679 --> 00:40:20.360
<v Speaker 1>here because you can never never have one hundred percent

728
00:40:20.400 --> 00:40:25.199
<v Speaker 1>attention on your child. Never. And I know someone in

729
00:40:25.239 --> 00:40:28.679
<v Speaker 1>her situation would have these tendencies to blame themselves. I

730
00:40:28.800 --> 00:40:31.440
<v Speaker 1>know because it's a natural instinct. Well, if only I

731
00:40:31.599 --> 00:40:36.760
<v Speaker 1>watched one percent, not her fault, definitely not. These two

732
00:40:36.800 --> 00:40:41.599
<v Speaker 1>fucking douche canoes of children were watching for the moment, Yeah,

733
00:40:41.639 --> 00:40:42.440
<v Speaker 1>fucking looked away.

734
00:40:42.559 --> 00:40:45.239
<v Speaker 2>They were there on a mission, they were.

735
00:40:45.320 --> 00:40:47.960
<v Speaker 1>And she could have watched in that moment. They would

736
00:40:48.000 --> 00:40:48.920
<v Speaker 1>have struck it another.

737
00:40:48.719 --> 00:40:50.599
<v Speaker 2>Moment well, And the thing is too, they would have

738
00:40:50.639 --> 00:40:53.199
<v Speaker 2>gotten away kind of with it a little bit easier

739
00:40:53.239 --> 00:40:57.360
<v Speaker 2>because I don't even think anyone would would see this

740
00:40:57.400 --> 00:40:59.639
<v Speaker 2>little boy with these two ten year olds and any

741
00:40:59.679 --> 00:41:02.039
<v Speaker 2>alarm would go off because they're probably thinking, like, oh,

742
00:41:02.119 --> 00:41:05.000
<v Speaker 2>it's their siblings or something, right exactly, because if it

743
00:41:05.039 --> 00:41:07.639
<v Speaker 2>was reversed, and it was adults with this little boy.

744
00:41:08.400 --> 00:41:11.679
<v Speaker 2>You know, some people might notice or like see that

745
00:41:11.719 --> 00:41:13.559
<v Speaker 2>they were upset a little bit more, but not with

746
00:41:13.639 --> 00:41:14.519
<v Speaker 2>two ten year olds.

747
00:41:14.760 --> 00:41:16.960
<v Speaker 1>Well, there was even a situation. I kind of omitted

748
00:41:16.960 --> 00:41:18.880
<v Speaker 1>this one, but I told you they were kind of

749
00:41:19.159 --> 00:41:21.519
<v Speaker 1>headed out of them all to the canal sort of situation.

750
00:41:22.800 --> 00:41:28.519
<v Speaker 1>There was apparently a woman who had witnessed the two

751
00:41:28.559 --> 00:41:32.079
<v Speaker 1>boys with James, and James had tripped or fallen or

752
00:41:32.079 --> 00:41:35.400
<v Speaker 1>they pushed him or something and he was crying and

753
00:41:35.880 --> 00:41:39.880
<v Speaker 1>she didn't report this. Who's gonna think to fucking Yeah,

754
00:41:39.880 --> 00:41:41.760
<v Speaker 1>that's probably their little brother right.

755
00:41:41.719 --> 00:41:43.280
<v Speaker 2>Now or cousin or something.

756
00:41:43.440 --> 00:41:45.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, the mom will take care of that. Like they're

757
00:41:45.800 --> 00:41:46.960
<v Speaker 1>right there, they're fine.

758
00:41:47.239 --> 00:41:50.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So your mind would never ever.

759
00:41:50.360 --> 00:41:53.400
<v Speaker 1>Go to not in a million motherfucking years, No, never, No.

760
00:41:54.400 --> 00:41:58.559
<v Speaker 1>So Judge, mister Justice Morland, love the fucking name for

761
00:41:58.599 --> 00:42:03.480
<v Speaker 1>a judge, Mister just Morland, told Thompson and Venables that

762
00:42:03.519 --> 00:42:08.639
<v Speaker 1>they had committed a crime of quote unparalleled evil and barbarity.

763
00:42:09.239 --> 00:42:13.679
<v Speaker 1>In my judgment, your conduct was both cunning and very wicked.

764
00:42:15.760 --> 00:42:19.760
<v Speaker 1>So Judge Morland sentenced them to be determined by Her

765
00:42:19.800 --> 00:42:22.960
<v Speaker 1>Majesty's pleasure, I'm not exactly certain what that means. I'm

766
00:42:23.000 --> 00:42:26.320
<v Speaker 1>pretty sure that's going to like the Queen because they're

767
00:42:26.320 --> 00:42:29.480
<v Speaker 1>in England, right, so it's probably going to you know,

768
00:42:29.519 --> 00:42:33.360
<v Speaker 1>the monarch of some sort with a recommendation that they

769
00:42:33.360 --> 00:42:36.760
<v Speaker 1>should be kept in her in custody for quote very

770
00:42:37.039 --> 00:42:41.280
<v Speaker 1>very many years to come, recommending a minimum term of

771
00:42:41.400 --> 00:42:42.280
<v Speaker 1>eight years.

772
00:42:42.679 --> 00:42:45.480
<v Speaker 2>Oh gosh, because oh, I hadn't even thought about that.

773
00:42:45.519 --> 00:42:47.000
<v Speaker 2>They're so fucking young.

774
00:42:47.280 --> 00:42:50.880
<v Speaker 1>Yes, they're being tried, they're being tried as adults in

775
00:42:50.920 --> 00:42:53.639
<v Speaker 1>an adult courtroom, but they are still children. You cannot

776
00:42:53.639 --> 00:42:55.960
<v Speaker 1>sentence them like an adult. You cannot.

777
00:42:56.599 --> 00:42:58.880
<v Speaker 2>Oh my gosh, they're probably already out.

778
00:42:59.199 --> 00:43:04.639
<v Speaker 1>Well, there was some discrepancies and how to actually come

779
00:43:04.679 --> 00:43:08.440
<v Speaker 1>down with justice on a serving term, and there it

780
00:43:08.559 --> 00:43:11.039
<v Speaker 1>went up I think, to one point with the recommendation

781
00:43:11.119 --> 00:43:14.079
<v Speaker 1>of being minimum of twelve years, but eventually, like through

782
00:43:14.360 --> 00:43:17.000
<v Speaker 1>like controversies and debates and stuff, it came back down

783
00:43:17.039 --> 00:43:19.679
<v Speaker 1>to the original eight. But of course there was a

784
00:43:19.719 --> 00:43:22.679
<v Speaker 1>lot of controversy surrounding this case because of the young

785
00:43:22.719 --> 00:43:27.000
<v Speaker 1>age of these kids and how this court presiding played out.

786
00:43:27.239 --> 00:43:31.320
<v Speaker 2>Well, they did a very adult task, really though, they did.

787
00:43:32.400 --> 00:43:35.440
<v Speaker 2>I mean, they should be tried that way, if they're

788
00:43:35.440 --> 00:43:36.800
<v Speaker 2>going to do something that bad.

789
00:43:36.679 --> 00:43:38.679
<v Speaker 1>Well, I mean, honestly, not even a fucking adult should

790
00:43:38.679 --> 00:43:40.039
<v Speaker 1>do that. But yeah, I know what you mean, one

791
00:43:40.119 --> 00:43:43.639
<v Speaker 1>hundred percent. But at the closing of this trial, the

792
00:43:43.760 --> 00:43:47.159
<v Speaker 1>judge lifted reporting restrictions and allowed the names of the

793
00:43:47.239 --> 00:43:51.199
<v Speaker 1>killers to be released, saying, and this goes along the

794
00:43:51.199 --> 00:43:53.199
<v Speaker 1>whole lines of the controversy thing. But I won one

795
00:43:53.239 --> 00:43:56.480
<v Speaker 1>hundred percent agree with the judge saying this quote. I

796
00:43:56.559 --> 00:43:59.599
<v Speaker 1>did this because the public interest overrode the interest of

797
00:43:59.599 --> 00:44:02.639
<v Speaker 1>the defense. There was a need for an informed public

798
00:44:02.679 --> 00:44:06.639
<v Speaker 1>debate on crimes committed by young children. So he's using

799
00:44:06.679 --> 00:44:11.199
<v Speaker 1>this as an educational platform for not only the judicial system,

800
00:44:11.239 --> 00:44:15.159
<v Speaker 1>but also the public as well, which phenomenal. I love that.

801
00:44:15.440 --> 00:44:16.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, No, that's really good.

802
00:44:17.039 --> 00:44:21.639
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and yeah, he was right though for years this

803
00:44:21.679 --> 00:44:23.880
<v Speaker 1>case has been a very hot topic of debate regarding

804
00:44:23.920 --> 00:44:27.239
<v Speaker 1>how everything unfolded. And yeah, I kind of already said that.

805
00:44:27.440 --> 00:44:32.519
<v Speaker 1>So now, on June twenty second of two thousand and one,

806
00:44:32.920 --> 00:44:37.480
<v Speaker 1>having served their eight years, both Thompson and Venables were released.

807
00:44:38.039 --> 00:44:40.800
<v Speaker 1>Both were given new identities and moved to different parts

808
00:44:40.800 --> 00:44:43.960
<v Speaker 1>of the country to maintain their own safety. Holy fuck,

809
00:44:44.119 --> 00:44:47.400
<v Speaker 1>An injunction prevents the press from publishing any details about

810
00:44:47.440 --> 00:44:50.280
<v Speaker 1>the two killers New lives. On the twenty third of

811
00:44:50.360 --> 00:44:55.440
<v Speaker 1>July twenty ten, Venables, aged twenty seven, was jailed once

812
00:44:55.480 --> 00:45:00.639
<v Speaker 1>again after admitting his guilt to downloading and distributing indecent

813
00:45:00.760 --> 00:45:06.519
<v Speaker 1>images of children, so child pornography. And I said, there's

814
00:45:06.519 --> 00:45:09.840
<v Speaker 1>a piece that may paint some insight onto why there

815
00:45:09.880 --> 00:45:10.199
<v Speaker 1>it is?

816
00:45:11.880 --> 00:45:20.320
<v Speaker 2>Oh what the fuck? Yeah, holy shit, And they're just

817
00:45:20.400 --> 00:45:24.320
<v Speaker 2>fucking out of jail now, Well they're gonna oh so.

818
00:45:24.559 --> 00:45:27.960
<v Speaker 1>Ha, are you good? No, I told you this is

819
00:45:28.000 --> 00:45:29.320
<v Speaker 1>a fucking rough case.

820
00:45:30.400 --> 00:45:32.960
<v Speaker 2>Because that's the problem. They're so young, so they're going

821
00:45:33.000 --> 00:45:36.000
<v Speaker 2>to get out and they're clearly especially I don't know

822
00:45:36.000 --> 00:45:38.960
<v Speaker 2>about the other boy, but he definitely did not get rehabilitated.

823
00:45:39.480 --> 00:45:40.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and they're just.

824
00:45:40.840 --> 00:45:44.079
<v Speaker 2>Going to complete being like a complete garbage bag of

825
00:45:44.119 --> 00:45:44.599
<v Speaker 2>a human.

826
00:45:45.000 --> 00:45:46.199
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

827
00:45:46.239 --> 00:45:49.000
<v Speaker 2>Awesome. And we don't even get to know who the

828
00:45:49.000 --> 00:45:52.840
<v Speaker 2>fuck they are? Correct that that is just not okay.

829
00:45:53.679 --> 00:45:58.320
<v Speaker 1>I somewhat agree, but I somewhat don't agree. Like I

830
00:45:58.360 --> 00:46:00.480
<v Speaker 1>see it, but I don't know if I with it,

831
00:46:00.760 --> 00:46:04.360
<v Speaker 1>I understand, but fuck it's hard, Like I don't know,

832
00:46:04.559 --> 00:46:07.000
<v Speaker 1>I don't know. I see both sides of this coin,

833
00:46:07.440 --> 00:46:11.440
<v Speaker 1>I really fucking do. And it's so hard to discern

834
00:46:11.719 --> 00:46:15.599
<v Speaker 1>which would be the better side, because I mean, these

835
00:46:15.679 --> 00:46:18.800
<v Speaker 1>these two kids had a fucking horrible thing. Yes, they

836
00:46:18.880 --> 00:46:20.480
<v Speaker 1>did a very as you put it, like a very

837
00:46:20.519 --> 00:46:25.280
<v Speaker 1>adult act, right, Yeah, but they were kids. If anyone's

838
00:46:25.320 --> 00:46:28.199
<v Speaker 1>going to be rehabilitated, it's someone like this, that's true.

839
00:46:28.280 --> 00:46:30.639
<v Speaker 2>But clearly the one especially did not RISCT.

840
00:46:30.920 --> 00:46:33.199
<v Speaker 1>So how do you discern that you have to take

841
00:46:33.199 --> 00:46:37.119
<v Speaker 1>a risk at some point with letting them potentially, Like,

842
00:46:37.199 --> 00:46:38.960
<v Speaker 1>I don't know, and I don't know what that risk

843
00:46:39.000 --> 00:46:41.880
<v Speaker 1>would be. I'm not educated enough. I'm not someone in

844
00:46:41.920 --> 00:46:43.840
<v Speaker 1>the position in power to make that call.

845
00:46:44.440 --> 00:46:47.159
<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean you'd only hope, too, that there was

846
00:46:47.480 --> 00:46:52.239
<v Speaker 2>some sort of like something that followed their new names

847
00:46:52.679 --> 00:46:55.119
<v Speaker 2>that made it so they couldn't work with kids or something.

848
00:46:55.440 --> 00:46:57.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. No, there's definitely should be some fucking lines in

849
00:46:57.880 --> 00:47:00.760
<v Speaker 1>the sand. I agree. You don't just be like, yeah,

850
00:47:00.760 --> 00:47:03.559
<v Speaker 1>I enjoy your new fucking life, yeah, a new identity.

851
00:47:03.199 --> 00:47:05.039
<v Speaker 2>And may become like a teacher or something.

852
00:47:05.679 --> 00:47:08.079
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. No, No, you're going to be fucking working very

853
00:47:08.119 --> 00:47:09.880
<v Speaker 1>far away from kids. We're going to be checking up

854
00:47:09.880 --> 00:47:11.239
<v Speaker 1>on you every so often, and.

855
00:47:11.519 --> 00:47:14.280
<v Speaker 2>You would only hope, but I you don't know for sure.

856
00:47:14.320 --> 00:47:17.599
<v Speaker 1>But that means we could go fucking many episodes onto

857
00:47:17.800 --> 00:47:21.599
<v Speaker 1>how the fuck that could play out. I see why

858
00:47:22.159 --> 00:47:27.280
<v Speaker 1>they were charged, and I see why they served an

859
00:47:27.320 --> 00:47:31.079
<v Speaker 1>eight year sentence. I see why they were given new names.

860
00:47:31.119 --> 00:47:33.880
<v Speaker 1>I see why they were given out to live a

861
00:47:33.920 --> 00:47:36.199
<v Speaker 1>new life. But I see why people are very mad

862
00:47:36.239 --> 00:47:38.440
<v Speaker 1>about it. I see why they shouldn't. I see it

863
00:47:38.480 --> 00:47:42.719
<v Speaker 1>all I do, And you can't have the best of

864
00:47:42.760 --> 00:47:46.079
<v Speaker 1>both worlds. You just cannot, I do, Okay.

865
00:47:46.400 --> 00:47:48.719
<v Speaker 2>I think if they were given given a little bit

866
00:47:48.760 --> 00:47:52.960
<v Speaker 2>more time than eight years, it would be easier to swallow,

867
00:47:53.360 --> 00:47:55.440
<v Speaker 2>Like it would be easier for that for knowing that

868
00:47:55.480 --> 00:47:58.599
<v Speaker 2>they get a new name, because eight years isn't really

869
00:47:58.639 --> 00:48:01.079
<v Speaker 2>that much wrong. It's not for someone to you know,

870
00:48:01.400 --> 00:48:04.360
<v Speaker 2>like get rehabilitated. So I feel like if they would

871
00:48:04.400 --> 00:48:08.519
<v Speaker 2>have gotten you know, a normal kind of sentence, like

872
00:48:08.559 --> 00:48:10.679
<v Speaker 2>even twenty five years, say, right, like kind of the

873
00:48:10.760 --> 00:48:14.400
<v Speaker 2>normal fair enough that after that amount of time, you know,

874
00:48:14.960 --> 00:48:18.159
<v Speaker 2>maybe they could be changed. But eight years, I just

875
00:48:18.239 --> 00:48:19.360
<v Speaker 2>I can't really see it.

876
00:48:19.480 --> 00:48:22.679
<v Speaker 1>There's so many factors to consider in this. But anyways,

877
00:48:23.039 --> 00:48:25.519
<v Speaker 1>onto Thompson. Though since his release in two thousand and one.

878
00:48:25.559 --> 00:48:27.599
<v Speaker 1>He has kept a very low profile and has done

879
00:48:27.599 --> 00:48:31.559
<v Speaker 1>his best to maintain his anonymity. There we go. He

880
00:48:31.639 --> 00:48:35.639
<v Speaker 1>came close to one incident, actually meeting James's mother, Denise

881
00:48:35.840 --> 00:48:39.079
<v Speaker 1>in two thousand and four. She sought him out and

882
00:48:39.119 --> 00:48:45.280
<v Speaker 1>she managed to track him down. However, she was paralyzed

883
00:48:45.280 --> 00:48:49.400
<v Speaker 1>with anger and hatred and was unable to confront him.

884
00:48:49.800 --> 00:48:53.519
<v Speaker 1>Unable to confront one of the men who murdered her

885
00:48:53.559 --> 00:48:56.039
<v Speaker 1>two year old child, James Bulker.

886
00:48:56.480 --> 00:48:59.880
<v Speaker 2>Oh, that's really sad because that just sort of shows

887
00:49:00.000 --> 00:49:03.599
<v Speaker 2>it's like her life going forward, you know, like it

888
00:49:03.639 --> 00:49:09.519
<v Speaker 2>doesn't seem like it's good. How would it really be? Though? Yeah, Oh,

889
00:49:09.519 --> 00:49:10.599
<v Speaker 2>that is so sad.

890
00:49:11.000 --> 00:49:15.599
<v Speaker 1>So the sheer brutality of the sadistic killing perpetrated by

891
00:49:15.639 --> 00:49:19.599
<v Speaker 1>Thompson and Venables has surpassed any expectations of what two

892
00:49:19.719 --> 00:49:23.559
<v Speaker 1>primary school children, except what they were, could ever be

893
00:49:23.679 --> 00:49:28.280
<v Speaker 1>capable of. The word evil has since become synonymous with

894
00:49:28.320 --> 00:49:33.400
<v Speaker 1>their actions and their names. That is the story of

895
00:49:33.440 --> 00:49:35.480
<v Speaker 1>the murder of James Bulger.

896
00:49:36.880 --> 00:49:39.159
<v Speaker 2>Well, that is a brutal story.

897
00:49:39.559 --> 00:49:42.079
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, not one that I enjoyed researching.

898
00:49:42.239 --> 00:49:44.800
<v Speaker 2>No, gosh, I don't. I don't even know if I

899
00:49:44.800 --> 00:49:47.920
<v Speaker 2>would have been able to research that one. Gosh, that

900
00:49:48.079 --> 00:49:52.039
<v Speaker 2>is horrible, horrible, and I'm still I'm still literally on

901
00:49:52.079 --> 00:49:54.039
<v Speaker 2>the fact that they are only eighteen when they go out.

902
00:49:54.119 --> 00:49:56.199
<v Speaker 2>That is still kind of a child in a sense.

903
00:49:57.079 --> 00:50:01.079
<v Speaker 2>They still so much learning stuff. They needed to be

904
00:50:01.599 --> 00:50:03.519
<v Speaker 2>in way longer than that, in my opinion.

905
00:50:03.599 --> 00:50:06.480
<v Speaker 1>Well, technically they probably would have been nineteenth they were eleven,

906
00:50:06.880 --> 00:50:08.840
<v Speaker 1>but I don't know. It all depends on like when

907
00:50:08.840 --> 00:50:12.639
<v Speaker 1>the months fell and you know, but so, yeah, there

908
00:50:13.079 --> 00:50:15.559
<v Speaker 1>could have been time served from being in custody. Who

909
00:50:15.559 --> 00:50:15.920
<v Speaker 1>knows what?

910
00:50:16.119 --> 00:50:21.079
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, gosh, and there's, like you said, so much that

911
00:50:21.119 --> 00:50:24.159
<v Speaker 2>we probably don't even know or never will know. I

912
00:50:24.199 --> 00:50:27.639
<v Speaker 2>actually am surprised. How would they even go on? Like

913
00:50:27.800 --> 00:50:31.679
<v Speaker 2>just knowing what they did is just no, I really don't.

914
00:50:32.199 --> 00:50:36.119
<v Speaker 1>One of them clearly has some very disturbing tendencies to

915
00:50:36.199 --> 00:50:43.840
<v Speaker 1>then come out of prison and have child pornography. Wow. Yeah,

916
00:50:44.239 --> 00:50:47.400
<v Speaker 1>I yeah, no, I don't want to have that conversation.

917
00:50:47.480 --> 00:50:50.440
<v Speaker 1>Never mind, how are you doing?

918
00:50:53.400 --> 00:50:55.559
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. I mean, I knew a little bit

919
00:50:55.599 --> 00:50:58.360
<v Speaker 2>about this case. I didn't know a lot of the details.

920
00:50:59.360 --> 00:51:03.159
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, it is just so it's so devastating. It's

921
00:51:03.199 --> 00:51:06.320
<v Speaker 2>just such a it's just so unnecessary and such a waste.

922
00:51:06.360 --> 00:51:11.239
<v Speaker 1>And yeah, yeah, well I will end it on one

923
00:51:11.280 --> 00:51:18.000
<v Speaker 1>little note. Uh, James's parents, after James was killed, they

924
00:51:18.000 --> 00:51:21.599
<v Speaker 1>had another child together and they I believe it was

925
00:51:21.639 --> 00:51:24.760
<v Speaker 1>his middle name was was James. They did name their

926
00:51:24.880 --> 00:51:27.360
<v Speaker 1>their other son after their older brother.

927
00:51:27.519 --> 00:51:32.360
<v Speaker 2>I was wondering that. I almost asked, but you almost think, like, gosh,

928
00:51:32.440 --> 00:51:35.679
<v Speaker 2>the anxiety they must have, you know, towards this other

929
00:51:36.440 --> 00:51:39.880
<v Speaker 2>this other kid too, right, Yeah, for sure, gosh, because

930
00:51:39.880 --> 00:51:41.559
<v Speaker 2>how do you even go Florida after you've kind of

931
00:51:42.639 --> 00:51:45.840
<v Speaker 2>lost to like it would just be you would be worried, sick.

932
00:51:46.039 --> 00:51:48.000
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I'm sure you already are, but even to

933
00:51:48.079 --> 00:51:49.360
<v Speaker 2>more more of an extent.

934
00:51:49.920 --> 00:51:56.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, no, you you're one percent. Right. Well, we're it's late.

935
00:51:56.480 --> 00:51:58.840
<v Speaker 1>We're probably gonna go go to bed now, and definitely not.

936
00:51:59.079 --> 00:52:01.719
<v Speaker 1>If not, I'm not any sleep. That's most likely our night.

937
00:52:01.840 --> 00:52:06.000
<v Speaker 1>So hopefully you somewhat enjoyed this episode. It was a

938
00:52:06.079 --> 00:52:09.239
<v Speaker 1>very heavy one. It was one of those ones that

939
00:52:09.800 --> 00:52:13.760
<v Speaker 1>we had to do. We had to tell James's story. Yeah,

940
00:52:14.400 --> 00:52:17.480
<v Speaker 1>and it sat on our shelf for a long time

941
00:52:17.880 --> 00:52:20.679
<v Speaker 1>with that daunting task of covering it.

942
00:52:20.679 --> 00:52:22.639
<v Speaker 2>It does get recommended a lot this one.

943
00:52:22.719 --> 00:52:23.119
<v Speaker 1>It does.

944
00:52:24.320 --> 00:52:26.119
<v Speaker 2>And then I just wanted to say too, just because

945
00:52:26.119 --> 00:52:30.519
<v Speaker 2>we are on the road, we aren't videoing this one.

946
00:52:30.599 --> 00:52:32.599
<v Speaker 1>Oh right, yeah, so this this one will not be

947
00:52:32.679 --> 00:52:35.440
<v Speaker 1>on YouTube. This is a strictly audio one. Yeah, and

948
00:52:35.480 --> 00:52:38.159
<v Speaker 1>we're a little bit behind with posting some video podcasting,

949
00:52:38.239 --> 00:52:40.679
<v Speaker 1>so those will be going up here in the coming

950
00:52:40.679 --> 00:52:42.559
<v Speaker 1>week or so, so just watch out for those. Go

951
00:52:42.880 --> 00:52:44.800
<v Speaker 1>down to the description. You can find YouTube, you can

952
00:52:44.800 --> 00:52:46.960
<v Speaker 1>find Instagram. You can find we have two YouTube channels,

953
00:52:47.280 --> 00:52:49.400
<v Speaker 1>one where you can watch the podcast in video form

954
00:52:49.400 --> 00:52:52.280
<v Speaker 1>except like Nicole said, not this one, and another where

955
00:52:52.280 --> 00:52:55.239
<v Speaker 1>we dov logs and stuff about our lifestyle. There's also Patreon.

956
00:52:55.360 --> 00:52:57.719
<v Speaker 1>We have a website. It's all there if you want

957
00:52:57.760 --> 00:52:59.639
<v Speaker 1>to sign up check any of it out. All the

958
00:52:59.639 --> 00:53:01.199
<v Speaker 1>descripts are down below.

959
00:53:02.079 --> 00:53:05.360
<v Speaker 2>Awesome. Yeah yeah, you need you need to have something

960
00:53:05.480 --> 00:53:10.440
<v Speaker 2>like a ice cream or something, some sort of a

961
00:53:10.480 --> 00:53:13.280
<v Speaker 2>little something to make your night a little better.

962
00:53:13.360 --> 00:53:14.960
<v Speaker 1>I think I just need to like walk out into

963
00:53:14.960 --> 00:53:17.199
<v Speaker 1>the middle of a field somewhere and just scream, just

964
00:53:17.320 --> 00:53:22.559
<v Speaker 1>screw the top, scream at nothing and everything all at

965
00:53:22.599 --> 00:53:23.679
<v Speaker 1>once at this world.

966
00:53:24.039 --> 00:53:26.760
<v Speaker 2>Yes, yeah, well well done.

967
00:53:26.840 --> 00:53:28.239
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Okay, Well I'm going to go do that.

968
00:53:29.960 --> 00:53:31.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, thanks so much for listening everyone.

969
00:53:31.840 --> 00:53:35.239
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, until next time, stay wicked.