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<v Speaker 1>Meaning a man like this man letting butterfly, flapping his wing,

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<v Speaker 1>big down in a forest. Man, it gonna cause a

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<v Speaker 1>tree fall, letting five thousand miles away.

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<v Speaker 2>Many nobody see, nobody else see you don't need no man.

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<v Speaker 1>They've like you followed another story and.

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<v Speaker 2>You got backed like that. That's the win. Man got

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<v Speaker 2>back to dag on Panela Man, Man, you don't don't

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<v Speaker 2>better man. Clearly there is a crisis of masculinity. Everyone

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<v Speaker 2>agrees on exactly this. You can look at media going

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<v Speaker 2>back to Fight Club, if not earlier than that, dealing

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<v Speaker 2>with this problem of what do we make of man

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<v Speaker 2>in a post industrial world. Our grandfathers took their meaning

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<v Speaker 2>from work, providing from their families. But in an era

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<v Speaker 2>where more and more women are entering the workfloors, men

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<v Speaker 2>feel unindividuated. We are simply another gear in the machine,

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<v Speaker 2>and not even a unique one. Everyone is doing everything,

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<v Speaker 2>and so what is the purpose of a man? This

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<v Speaker 2>isn't just coming from the political right, particularly after the

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<v Speaker 2>twenty twenty four election, but let's be honest, for decades

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<v Speaker 2>before that, the progressives have been asking what do we

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<v Speaker 2>do with men? What is the role for men? And

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<v Speaker 2>they do not have a good answer. One of the

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<v Speaker 2>most interesting recurring articles of the last four or five

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<v Speaker 2>years is something along the lines of is Hassan Piker

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<v Speaker 2>the lefts Joe Rogan. Now, look, it's a stupid article,

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<v Speaker 2>sort of wish casting, desirous of a authoruthenticity, it's almost

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<v Speaker 2>impossible to create as a man on the progressive left.

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<v Speaker 2>But a big part of it is asking the question, well,

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<v Speaker 2>how can a man be part of our coalition? What

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<v Speaker 2>role can he embody? A few years ago he could

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<v Speaker 2>be vouch, he could be a debate bro, but for

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<v Speaker 2>fairly obvious reasons, he fell out of fashion, and so

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<v Speaker 2>some sort of bizarre himbo moron socialist streamer seems to

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<v Speaker 2>be the best answer they've got. And if you're not that, well,

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<v Speaker 2>I guess you can be Harry Sisson, an effeminate pillowbier.

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<v Speaker 2>But on our side of things, this is a question

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<v Speaker 2>up for debate as well. Figures like Matt Walsh the Turfs,

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<v Speaker 2>they tend to define sex in exclusively biological definitions. A

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<v Speaker 2>man is an adult human male, a woman an adult

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<v Speaker 2>human female. I understand why that definition is one that's

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<v Speaker 2>put forth. We're dealing with the transgender movement. So it

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<v Speaker 2>makes sense, of course, to focus on the biology of it.

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<v Speaker 2>But there's more than that. There are many people who

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<v Speaker 2>meet at criteria have the right chromosomes and they've reached

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<v Speaker 2>the age of majority, but they aren't a man by

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<v Speaker 2>any meaningful metric. Even within the religious world, this has

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<v Speaker 2>become a live issue. I had on Benjamin Michael orthodox

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<v Speaker 2>Luigi not too long ago to talk about the ongoing

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<v Speaker 2>problem with masculinity in the church, and my guest today

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<v Speaker 2>JJ S. Davis has written a very good book on it.

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<v Speaker 2>It is religious, he's Protestant from a similar faith tradition

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<v Speaker 2>to mine. But this book is important to people period

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<v Speaker 2>to men. Sure, you know there's some Bible verses in it,

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<v Speaker 2>but if those offend you, and maybe give him a

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<v Speaker 2>shot and two, you should still read it anyway. He

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<v Speaker 2>lays out a very compelling argument that men have a role,

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<v Speaker 2>they have a purpose, and they need to embody that purpose,

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<v Speaker 2>not simply by virtue of their biology. But there is

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<v Speaker 2>a goal to aim for, there's something to aspire to,

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<v Speaker 2>and that lack of aspirational goal is why I think

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<v Speaker 2>men are retreating from so many institutions. There's no way

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<v Speaker 2>I can see myself succeeding there, there's no path for me.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's a big reason that young men are

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<v Speaker 2>returning to traditional groups of any stripe, a desire for

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<v Speaker 2>a role, a desire for a reason. The reason I

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<v Speaker 2>said post industrial is because in a previous era, this

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<v Speaker 2>question would be almost ridiculous. It would be obviously apparent

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<v Speaker 2>what the purpose of a man and a woman was.

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<v Speaker 2>We were low enough down on Mouthus's pyramid to understand

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<v Speaker 2>well what we needed to do. No one's gaze again

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<v Speaker 2>to their naval wondering about the purpose of life when

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<v Speaker 2>there's a saber tooth tiger at the door. But as

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<v Speaker 2>we have become more specialized, as we have become more industrialized,

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<v Speaker 2>and as we have become wealthier, well, these questions have arisen.

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<v Speaker 2>And even within the evangelical world, right the nominal conservative Christians,

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<v Speaker 2>they're completely and totally unprepared for it. They are very

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<v Speaker 2>comfortable speaking to women because for the vast majority of

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<v Speaker 2>time religion was female, those were the majority of people

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<v Speaker 2>in the pews. That is no longer the case, and

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<v Speaker 2>so we're seeing a sort of mismatch between well intentioned

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<v Speaker 2>but ultimately foolish ideas. Additionally, many older concerns, and I

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<v Speaker 2>mean that in the widest possible sense of that term,

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<v Speaker 2>are extremely hesitant to bear any sort of social cost whatsoever.

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<v Speaker 2>So when these accusations of toxic masculinity, bigotry, sexism, racism,

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<v Speaker 2>they melt under it because they have been conditioned to

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<v Speaker 2>do so. They don't understand that is tactical, that the

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<v Speaker 2>desire to push young men out of an organization is tactical.

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<v Speaker 2>It is a way to hobble this institution. And it's

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<v Speaker 2>why books like Chases are important because there are many people,

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<v Speaker 2>No doubt, if you're listening to this, you're one of them,

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<v Speaker 2>for whom everything I've said is accepted. With we grew

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<v Speaker 2>up in it, we understand exactly how the game works,

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<v Speaker 2>the fact that this is a conflict one between mutually

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<v Speaker 2>incompatible views of the world. But for those who grew

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<v Speaker 2>up in a time where that was maybe still but

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<v Speaker 2>at least a more hidden truth, books like this are

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<v Speaker 2>absolutely vital. They provide that ramp, that way to go

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<v Speaker 2>from common received wisdom, the things that they have been

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<v Speaker 2>told on network television, to a true understanding of the world.

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<v Speaker 2>And again, if we are going to win, and I

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<v Speaker 2>view that as an existential question whether we win or not.

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<v Speaker 2>For a variety of reasons. Well, we've got to have

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<v Speaker 2>young men. And also, if you are a young man,

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<v Speaker 2>this book is for you. I think many of us

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<v Speaker 2>have felt that feeling of being cast adrift, no idea

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<v Speaker 2>what to do or where to go. And while we

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<v Speaker 2>don't talk about it a lot, in this discussion, we

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<v Speaker 2>get sidetracked. We talk a lot about the fun stuff,

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<v Speaker 2>right kind of bashing the most limbristed quote unquote conservative elite.

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<v Speaker 2>The whole back half of this is a checklist of

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<v Speaker 2>things to do, how to get out of the trap,

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<v Speaker 2>how to reclaim masculinity, and not in the goofy way.

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<v Speaker 2>The masculinity influencer, the guy with the perfectly manicured beard,

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<v Speaker 2>artistically selected tattoos and a TRT prescription that would kill

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<v Speaker 2>a race horse, the Andrew Tates, the Jack Murphy's that

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<v Speaker 2>sort of thing. The other false answer to that question,

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<v Speaker 2>where you transition from a man to an alpha male,

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<v Speaker 2>you become this sort of bizarre, hyper real agglomeration of

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<v Speaker 2>secondary sex characteristics masquerading as a man. And look, don't

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<v Speaker 2>get me wrong, I'm obviously not opposed to physical fitness

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<v Speaker 2>or taking good care of yourself. That's not my point

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<v Speaker 2>at all, But that is not all there is to it.

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<v Speaker 2>It is the same mistake expressed differently as the adult

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<v Speaker 2>human male. Now, obviously there are other traps as well,

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<v Speaker 2>the kind of what Chase calls sex gnosticism, the idea

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<v Speaker 2>that your body and your soul your consciousness are separated,

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<v Speaker 2>that you have a male body, but the spirit is

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<v Speaker 2>completely and totally up to you. You can be in

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<v Speaker 2>the wrong body. But you see that same idea, albeit

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<v Speaker 2>expressed differently in conservative circles, the idea that men and

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<v Speaker 2>women are inherently the same, they think the same, The

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<v Speaker 2>only difference is at best their bench press, or you know,

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<v Speaker 2>their their predilection to acl injury. That also is a mistake,

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<v Speaker 2>one that ultimately seedes ground to the progressives arguing from

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<v Speaker 2>the same logic on a slightly out moded patch. Clearly,

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<v Speaker 2>it's not going anywhere. And this question of masculinity is

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<v Speaker 2>interesting to me because obviously I am, albeit much less

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<v Speaker 2>than I used to be, but a young man. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>less young, hopefully not less of a man than I

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<v Speaker 2>used to be, And I see myself and my peers

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<v Speaker 2>wrestling with that. We feel as if we are out

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<v Speaker 2>of time, the system that is not designed for us,

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<v Speaker 2>not designed for us to succeed, and yet here we are,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's why we must have a confident affirmative. One

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<v Speaker 2>might even say offensive answer to that question. So I'll

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<v Speaker 2>turn it over to the interview with Chase. I think

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<v Speaker 2>it was a good interview book in the description, if

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<v Speaker 2>you're interested, it's well bound. It's a pretty book to

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<v Speaker 2>look at. So if you're one of those people who

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<v Speaker 2>buys books and never reads them, you'll certainly get your

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<v Speaker 2>money's worth out of it. But if you're inclined, i'd

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<v Speaker 2>recommend reading it. I'd recommend buying it maybe for the

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<v Speaker 2>men in your life who were pointed in the right direction,

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<v Speaker 2>whether young or old, but not there yet. As far

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<v Speaker 2>as my stuff, you guys know where to find me. Apple, Spotify, YouTube,

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<v Speaker 2>anywhere you listen to podcasts. If you want to support

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<v Speaker 2>me a few bucks a month on Patreon, Substack or

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<v Speaker 2>gum road, get the episodes early in ad free. The

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<v Speaker 2>ads are irritating, I get it, but I gotta pay

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<v Speaker 2>a mortgage somehow, and that helps me out. Also gets

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<v Speaker 2>you away from Chumba Casino and the other reprobates who

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<v Speaker 2>decide to give me a check in the mail every month. Also,

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<v Speaker 2>if you are interested in the physical fitness side of that,

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<v Speaker 2>something that the author and I discuss, you can head

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<v Speaker 2>over to my sponsor, Axios Remote Fitness Coaching. Actually, I

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<v Speaker 2>think Chase is a member. I see him in the

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<v Speaker 2>group chat every once in a while, so you can

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<v Speaker 2>talk to him there, can talk to me there. And

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<v Speaker 2>JD the guy who runs it, understands these ideas well.

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<v Speaker 2>He is an absolute unit, very good at what he does,

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of expertise, so be sure to take advantage

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<v Speaker 2>of that resource. I think if you follow my link

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<v Speaker 2>you get like two weeks free. I think I should

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<v Speaker 2>know that Axios has been sponsoring me for years now,

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<v Speaker 2>a fairly large portion of my life. And I mean, honestly,

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<v Speaker 2>you should even just feel bad for him because I'm

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<v Speaker 2>I mean me as your advertising. It's not high quality.

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<v Speaker 2>I've been rambling for like two minutes about this and

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<v Speaker 2>I still don't know important details about this scheme. Now

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<v Speaker 2>that said, anyway, here's the interview. All right, Chase Davis,

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome to the Jay Burdens Show. How are you doing?

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<v Speaker 1>Man doing great? Man? Happy to be here.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm glad to have you on. You released a

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<v Speaker 2>book Offensive Christianity. I've read it, and you and I

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<v Speaker 2>have some friends in common. Been wanting to get you

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<v Speaker 2>on the show for a long time, and look, this

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<v Speaker 2>was a great excuse. So before we get into it

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<v Speaker 2>in the book, just a little bit of background. Who

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<v Speaker 2>are you and what do you do?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah? Pastor by vocation, So that's my training is in

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<v Speaker 1>pastoral ministry. I've been a pastor for fifteen years in

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<v Speaker 1>the Great State of Colorado, originally from Texas. Me and

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<v Speaker 1>my wife down in Texas. We moved up to Colorado

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<v Speaker 1>in two thousand and nine and entered into ministry. Got

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<v Speaker 1>a couple of seminary degrees. This is my second book.

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<v Speaker 1>My first book Trinity Information, much much more subdued and

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<v Speaker 1>nuanced that nobody knows about. It was just my thesis

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<v Speaker 1>for my THHM that got published. And then I was

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<v Speaker 1>doing doctoral studies for a while over at the Free

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<v Speaker 1>University of Amsterdam. Recently exited that program once I kind

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<v Speaker 1>of saw AI coming this way and also got the

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<v Speaker 1>opportunity to write this book, which was kind of in

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<v Speaker 1>my research area already, theological anthropology. Besides that, I'm active

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<v Speaker 1>on Substack, have my own podcasts Full Proof Theology. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>who doesn't. You got to have your own podcast and

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<v Speaker 1>have had a great time over there. I mean it's

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<v Speaker 1>been It's mainly a learning experience for me. I just

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<v Speaker 1>get to meet a bunch of people who I think

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<v Speaker 1>I want to learn more from or I want to

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<v Speaker 1>challenge a little bit or kick around their ideas, and

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<v Speaker 1>so that's been wonderful. But yeah, I'm mainly at the

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<v Speaker 1>Well Church in Boulder, Colorado.

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<v Speaker 2>So primarily this book deals with masculinity. So before we

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<v Speaker 2>get into it, before we get into your thesis, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>curious what led you to this area of research. Why

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<v Speaker 2>is it something that you were interested in learning more about.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it was always something in evangelical church, which is

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<v Speaker 1>what I grew up in. I grew up in a

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<v Speaker 1>Southern Baptist church. There was always men's ministry. I went

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<v Speaker 1>to a Christian school. There was always an emphasis on

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<v Speaker 1>being a good man, being a strong man, lots of

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<v Speaker 1>literature when I was coming of age. I guess more

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<v Speaker 1>of my dad now that I think about it was

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<v Speaker 1>coming of age. It was like promise Keepers. That was

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<v Speaker 1>a big movement which was actually started out a boulder,

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<v Speaker 1>come to find out when we moved here. But Promise

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<v Speaker 1>Keepers was big in the nineties and two thousands, and

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<v Speaker 1>there's just been a lot of literature. This isn't the

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<v Speaker 1>first book that's ever been written on the crisis of

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<v Speaker 1>manhood in the Christian West and the late twentieth and

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<v Speaker 1>early twentieth first century, and it probably won't be the

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<v Speaker 1>last either. I think my book is unique and what

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<v Speaker 1>it's proposing as opposed to the others. But this was

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<v Speaker 1>noticed by many many authors. There's been many attempts to

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<v Speaker 1>figure out what's been going on with men, especially in

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<v Speaker 1>the late half of the twentieth century. But for me personally,

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<v Speaker 1>it was more around you know, growing up with a

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<v Speaker 1>good dad who provided for me, who put me in sports,

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<v Speaker 1>put me to Christian school. I there were all these

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<v Speaker 1>kind of tropes about what it meant to be a man,

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<v Speaker 1>what it looked like, and it kind of goes back

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<v Speaker 1>to the word you mentioned, masculinity. For a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>young people today and even older men today, masculinity is

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<v Speaker 1>simply a construct. It's a presentation to the world. It

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<v Speaker 1>is a game of making sure you appear a certain way.

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<v Speaker 1>And I want to get more down to the bare bones,

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<v Speaker 1>into the basics and the design of men biologically, because

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of it becomes very tropy, a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>it becomes very predictable. So I think, as a young man,

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<v Speaker 1>you want to you want to grow up and to

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<v Speaker 1>be a mature, godly man. A lot of times what's

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<v Speaker 1>held out to you or are you know certain hobbies

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<v Speaker 1>you can have, hunting, fishing, these kind of things. You

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<v Speaker 1>go into the military. And then for a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>young sensitive men will say, you know, they don't know

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<v Speaker 1>what to do with a lot of these masculine categories.

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<v Speaker 1>So you know, they're into the arts, poetry, music, stuff

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<v Speaker 1>like this, and they don't really fit the category of that.

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<v Speaker 1>I didn't fit cleanly in either of those council though

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<v Speaker 1>I was interested in music and in athletics. And so

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<v Speaker 1>through the course of twenty eleven twenty twenty, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I have two sons finding out what it means to

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<v Speaker 1>be a father, wonderful growing experience here, love my sons,

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<v Speaker 1>and then twenty twenty hits and really the problem is

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<v Speaker 1>right open in my mind with transgenderism and a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of the answers that the world is providing both left

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<v Speaker 1>and right felt insufficient and not deep enough in terms

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<v Speaker 1>of answering the question. Like I love Matt Walsh. I

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<v Speaker 1>think he's a really phenomenal communicator. His documentary is great,

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<v Speaker 1>everyone should go watch it on what is a woman?

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<v Speaker 1>But at the end it's like a woman is an

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<v Speaker 1>adult biological female? Good enough, right, But there's got to

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<v Speaker 1>be more to what does it mean to be a

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<v Speaker 1>woman than an adult biological female. And I would say the

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<v Speaker 1>same for men. There's got to be more than both

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<v Speaker 1>kind of a simple textbook definition of what does it

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<v Speaker 1>mean to be a man. It's also got to be

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<v Speaker 1>more than just kind of a trophy. You know, you

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<v Speaker 1>drink beer, you watch football, this kind of stuff, all

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<v Speaker 1>of which I'm not necessarily opposed to in itself. But

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<v Speaker 1>if that's all we're attaching to what our manhood is

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<v Speaker 1>and who we are as men, what we're designed for,

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<v Speaker 1>I think that's insufficient and demonstrably so, I think it's

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<v Speaker 1>been proven to be insufficient to really gird up our

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<v Speaker 1>civilization and the forces of ever increasing darkness that are

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<v Speaker 1>pushing against men, that are suppressing the nature of men.

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<v Speaker 1>And this has bled its way into the church. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>kind of getting thesis a little bit there. But that's

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<v Speaker 1>kind of the background of how I came to this is,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, I just had all these books as a

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<v Speaker 1>young man in the church, like Wild at Heart, which

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<v Speaker 1>I critique in the book, or a famous one was

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<v Speaker 1>Man in the Mirror, and so a lot of these

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<v Speaker 1>conceptions of manhood were very much like Wild a Heart,

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<v Speaker 1>for example, was like a therapeutic man. You know, you

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<v Speaker 1>go and you cry out your daddy wounds, your father

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<v Speaker 1>wounds on a men's retreat, and that's the apotheosis, the

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<v Speaker 1>spiritual climax of what it means to be a man

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<v Speaker 1>is grappling with your father wounds. And I find that

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<v Speaker 1>not only to be kind of a feminine but actually

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<v Speaker 1>counterproductive for a lot of men. They you know, they

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<v Speaker 1>don't understand what that does to them, and how that

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<v Speaker 1>lays up expectations that are kind of unreasonable for men.

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<v Speaker 1>And so that's kind of some of the literature I

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<v Speaker 1>was surrounded by growing up in the church.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so there are a couple things there. There's a

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<v Speaker 2>part of the book I am not going to focus on,

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<v Speaker 2>not because it's there's anything wrong with it, but just

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<v Speaker 2>because I talk about the problems facing young men so

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<v Speaker 2>often that look, you guys, don't need to hear me

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<v Speaker 2>do it again? You know, at a certain point, right,

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<v Speaker 2>how many more times can I tell you things aren't

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<v Speaker 2>good for young men? But on the question of masculinity,

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<v Speaker 2>there are two two broad camps. Which is one masculinity

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<v Speaker 2>is in itself something abusive and horrible that must be expunged.

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<v Speaker 2>You see this in the kind of performative new males,

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<v Speaker 2>the you know, boys who cry phenomenon, the sort of

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<v Speaker 2>leaning into feminization, oftentimes as a sort of sneaky dating strategy,

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<v Speaker 2>but sort of flaunting that. That is one view. The

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<v Speaker 2>other one is the what I call the sort of

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<v Speaker 2>uh transgender males, right, they've transitioned from being males to

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<v Speaker 2>alpha males, where much like the guy in the dress,

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<v Speaker 2>they're so focused on these sort of secondary sex characteristics,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, the like immaculately groomed beard, big muscles, tattoos, chains,

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<v Speaker 2>the bizarre obsession with posture, you know, the green line

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<v Speaker 2>stuff that we all enjoy joking about. But understand, of course,

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<v Speaker 2>there is a real version of that, And okay, maybe

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<v Speaker 2>one is preferable to the other to a degree, but

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<v Speaker 2>clearly these are neither one of these is a functional solution.

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<v Speaker 2>Neither one of these is a sustainable way to live

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<v Speaker 2>or to embody, if I can use that term, what

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<v Speaker 2>it means to be a man. So I'm gonna throw

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<v Speaker 2>some of your own works back at you. Figure he

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<v Speaker 2>might as well start with the central thesis. Christian men,

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<v Speaker 2>stripped of their God given power by a culture that

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<v Speaker 2>reduces manhood to ideas and demands endless empathy, must embrace

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<v Speaker 2>offensive Christianity that boldly asserts authority and action over passive reflection.

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<v Speaker 2>So a couple things there. One, we have that idea

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<v Speaker 2>of God given power, and this is very clearly a

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<v Speaker 2>hot topic in American Christianity. Now, Chase, you and I

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<v Speaker 2>come from a similar faith background. I'm not going to

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<v Speaker 2>get too much into the kind of inter Protestant minutia

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<v Speaker 2>because I think this applies to Christianity writ large. But

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<v Speaker 2>suffice it to say that is a contentious statement, the

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<v Speaker 2>idea that one there is a God given order where

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<v Speaker 2>men have a different role than women. So what's your

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<v Speaker 2>support for that claim?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think it's baked into nature. I mean, it's

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<v Speaker 1>not this. What's funny about the book is I keep

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<v Speaker 1>coming across other authors who have spoken on these things.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm like, oh, I've never heard of that person. Not

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<v Speaker 1>because I wanted to ignore outside literature or secondary sources

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<v Speaker 1>or primary sources even, but as like this stuff is

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<v Speaker 1>just apparent on its face. Everyone knew this until like

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<v Speaker 1>five minutes ago. That basically, like men have a power

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<v Speaker 1>about them should assert themselves. This is normal in sports,

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<v Speaker 1>for example. I bring this up all the time, not

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<v Speaker 1>to be redundant, but because it's just a great example

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<v Speaker 1>that when men enter a competitive field, whether it's a

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<v Speaker 1>hockey match, soccer, football, tennis, golf, whatever it is, they're

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<v Speaker 1>gonna want to win. They want to They have a

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<v Speaker 1>competitive drive about them. Women also have a competitive drive.

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<v Speaker 1>This isn't to say that, you know, they don't compete

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<v Speaker 1>as well in their own ways. Men distinctly, though, their

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<v Speaker 1>competitive drive is driven by their biology, by what they're

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<v Speaker 1>by their aspirations, all this cod of stuff. And so

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<v Speaker 1>this idea with power, particularly, it's been kind of beat Evangelicals,

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<v Speaker 1>particularly Protestants, have been beat over the head with either

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<v Speaker 1>a worship of power they just want power, or look

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<v Speaker 1>how bad they are because they have power. Power is

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<v Speaker 1>seen as this like really negative attribute of just human existence.

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<v Speaker 1>Which if you just kind of turn the cube a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit, you're like, this is actually nonsense on its face,

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<v Speaker 1>Like everybody wants power, agency, the ability to change things.

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<v Speaker 1>Power is not inherently bad. It can be misused, of course,

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<v Speaker 1>but like men today often have been so beat over

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<v Speaker 1>the head and beat down with this kind of narrative,

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<v Speaker 1>especially in the church, a lot of churches will trot

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<v Speaker 1>out this idea that having power in and of itself,

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<v Speaker 1>like just having any powers, is inherently problematic or oppressive,

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<v Speaker 1>right because you're kind of over someone else or in

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<v Speaker 1>charge of someone else, responsible for someone else. At the worst,

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<v Speaker 1>of course, it would double into things. We would all

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<v Speaker 1>disavow abuse or anything like this. But power itself is bad.

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<v Speaker 1>It's an idol, and you have to divest yourself of

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<v Speaker 1>your idol of power. And this is reallyhelpful and unproductive language.

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<v Speaker 1>It's sneaky language too, because it diminishes the natural capacities

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<v Speaker 1>of men to assert themselves. And instead, what we want

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<v Speaker 1>to do is have an appropriate use of power. Know

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<v Speaker 1>that we have power, know that we can influence things,

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<v Speaker 1>and then use that productively towards God's glory. It's not complicated,

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<v Speaker 1>but we've made it so complicated because one, the left

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<v Speaker 1>has been attacking evangelical power in America for so long now,

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<v Speaker 1>and two the Church has kind of adopted that talking

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<v Speaker 1>point and said, yeah, it's right, They're right. We are

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<v Speaker 1>ashamed of power, you know, we don't want power. We

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<v Speaker 1>just are here to serve. Of course, the use Bible

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<v Speaker 1>versus justify all this, taking them out of context and

399
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<v Speaker 1>importing them into the left. It's narrative, but it's not

400
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<v Speaker 1>only unhelpful, it's harmful to the Church's witness to men,

401
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<v Speaker 1>particularly because when men do have power, they don't know

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<v Speaker 1>what to do with it. You know, they have no

403
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<v Speaker 1>concept of like, I'm going to accrue power and wield

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<v Speaker 1>power for God's glory in my lifetime, which is a

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<v Speaker 1>very normal like throughout human civilization, throughout history, this has

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<v Speaker 1>been normal aspiration of men. This is what men do,

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<v Speaker 1>This is how they were made. They have responsibilities and duties.

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<v Speaker 1>There is kind of a natural hierarchy. This is not

409
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<v Speaker 1>a problem, but we've just bought this kind of weird

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<v Speaker 1>narrative around power that we're either not allowed to have

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<v Speaker 1>it or it's kind of like what you mentioned with

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<v Speaker 1>masculinity is just a problem in and of itself that

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<v Speaker 1>needs to be eradicated.

414
00:24:25.400 --> 00:24:29.200
<v Speaker 2>So I recently, actually my wife sent me this article

415
00:24:30.119 --> 00:24:33.079
<v Speaker 2>from the Gospel Coalition, which, Okay, I should have known

416
00:24:33.119 --> 00:24:37.200
<v Speaker 2>what I was getting into by a guy justin Poithrus,

417
00:24:37.240 --> 00:24:38.720
<v Speaker 2>I think is how I'm going to say his name

418
00:24:40.240 --> 00:24:42.720
<v Speaker 2>the title. Again, I knew what I was getting into.

419
00:24:42.720 --> 00:24:44.440
<v Speaker 2>I knew this was going to make me mad when

420
00:24:44.480 --> 00:24:48.400
<v Speaker 2>I read it. How evangelicals lose will make all the difference.

421
00:24:48.799 --> 00:24:52.720
<v Speaker 2>So this article from about three years back is specifically

422
00:24:52.799 --> 00:24:57.440
<v Speaker 2>critiquing the seven Mountain mandate, which I'll be honest, I've

423
00:24:57.480 --> 00:25:01.160
<v Speaker 2>never heard of. And does it seem to actually be

424
00:25:01.240 --> 00:25:04.079
<v Speaker 2>what the article is about. What the article is functionally

425
00:25:04.200 --> 00:25:09.200
<v Speaker 2>about is it is illegitimate for you, as a conservative

426
00:25:09.319 --> 00:25:14.039
<v Speaker 2>religious person in America to take any power at all.

427
00:25:14.119 --> 00:25:17.240
<v Speaker 2>What you should focus on is on losing with grace.

428
00:25:17.720 --> 00:25:20.000
<v Speaker 2>And it's a great article because that is a through

429
00:25:20.039 --> 00:25:23.680
<v Speaker 2>line you see and a lot of regime approved conservative

430
00:25:23.839 --> 00:25:28.519
<v Speaker 2>evangelical thought. But this guy's not smart enough to hide it.

431
00:25:28.599 --> 00:25:31.359
<v Speaker 2>He just come out and says it. And so much

432
00:25:31.400 --> 00:25:38.119
<v Speaker 2>of that argumentation is it is being deployed in a

433
00:25:38.240 --> 00:25:41.759
<v Speaker 2>specific context, right, they're churching it up literally as well.

434
00:25:41.799 --> 00:25:46.039
<v Speaker 2>As figuratively, but functionally it is power is bad when

435
00:25:46.039 --> 00:25:48.920
<v Speaker 2>you use it because you are bad, and good when

436
00:25:48.960 --> 00:25:51.880
<v Speaker 2>me or my friends use it because we're good. So,

437
00:25:51.960 --> 00:25:54.960
<v Speaker 2>for instance, in this instance, it's saying it's completely illegitimate

438
00:25:55.000 --> 00:25:58.759
<v Speaker 2>for people to pursue their own self interest. It is

439
00:25:58.839 --> 00:26:01.960
<v Speaker 2>completely legitimate for for others. Particularly this was during you know,

440
00:26:02.039 --> 00:26:04.519
<v Speaker 2>kind of one of the big BLM flare ups for

441
00:26:04.599 --> 00:26:07.799
<v Speaker 2>them to do it. So so much of this attitude

442
00:26:07.799 --> 00:26:11.799
<v Speaker 2>towards power is, in my mind, it's just a deliberate strategy.

443
00:26:12.039 --> 00:26:14.519
<v Speaker 2>It's I know you're going to disagree with me, so

444
00:26:14.599 --> 00:26:17.119
<v Speaker 2>I'd rather you just not even try to begin with.

445
00:26:17.680 --> 00:26:20.720
<v Speaker 2>And again, this is not to say that there isn't

446
00:26:20.720 --> 00:26:23.759
<v Speaker 2>an actual discussion to be had about the relationship between

447
00:26:23.759 --> 00:26:27.240
<v Speaker 2>faith and power, or the relationship between masculinity and femininity,

448
00:26:27.839 --> 00:26:29.720
<v Speaker 2>but we have to acknowledge a lot of this is

449
00:26:29.759 --> 00:26:32.200
<v Speaker 2>basically go away and shut up. I don't want you

450
00:26:32.279 --> 00:26:35.559
<v Speaker 2>to say anything like that, is what so much of

451
00:26:35.559 --> 00:26:37.680
<v Speaker 2>this discussion is. If you see what I'm saying, Chase.

452
00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:41.279
<v Speaker 1>No, absolutely, it's very And this is why I have

453
00:26:41.319 --> 00:26:44.200
<v Speaker 1>no problem saying it's very hypocritical, because often these people

454
00:26:44.599 --> 00:26:46.920
<v Speaker 1>that are writing these articles or suggesting these ideas do

455
00:26:47.000 --> 00:26:50.319
<v Speaker 1>have power, right, they do have influence. They are using

456
00:26:50.440 --> 00:26:53.079
<v Speaker 1>a platform to influence the thoughts of others. That's a

457
00:26:53.119 --> 00:26:55.880
<v Speaker 1>power move, and that's a choice, and they can do that.

458
00:26:56.960 --> 00:26:59.640
<v Speaker 1>I have no you know, I discree with their ideas,

459
00:26:59.640 --> 00:27:01.920
<v Speaker 1>and I I too wish they would not have power

460
00:27:01.960 --> 00:27:04.640
<v Speaker 1>anymore and suggest their ideas. But such as the nature

461
00:27:04.680 --> 00:27:06.759
<v Speaker 1>of the world. I see this all the time in

462
00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:10.119
<v Speaker 1>church world, especially as a pastor. You all pastors who

463
00:27:10.119 --> 00:27:12.960
<v Speaker 1>are you know, famous, have a large platform or anything

464
00:27:13.000 --> 00:27:15.319
<v Speaker 1>like that, much larger than me, and they'll get up

465
00:27:15.319 --> 00:27:17.599
<v Speaker 1>on the stage and lecture you about how you shouldn't

466
00:27:17.599 --> 00:27:20.799
<v Speaker 1>aspire to have influence, you should aspire a power. You know,

467
00:27:20.960 --> 00:27:22.799
<v Speaker 1>how dare you want to be a big name or

468
00:27:22.799 --> 00:27:24.960
<v Speaker 1>anything like this, all while they get like book tours

469
00:27:24.960 --> 00:27:28.559
<v Speaker 1>and they want evangelical cruises to lecture everybody about how

470
00:27:28.599 --> 00:27:31.920
<v Speaker 1>they you know, they're not worthy of accruing such influence.

471
00:27:32.720 --> 00:27:36.720
<v Speaker 1>It's just hypocrisy, and it grosses me out, it should

472
00:27:36.720 --> 00:27:40.079
<v Speaker 1>grows anyone out. Again, I don't necessarily fault these guys.

473
00:27:40.079 --> 00:27:43.200
<v Speaker 1>I don't think they're necessarily being nefarious. This guy over

474
00:27:43.200 --> 00:27:45.920
<v Speaker 1>the Gospel Coalition that you mentioned could be you know,

475
00:27:46.000 --> 00:27:49.920
<v Speaker 1>a paid well not anymore US eight actor, but he

476
00:27:49.960 --> 00:27:52.839
<v Speaker 1>could be kind of like a Patsy. But this is

477
00:27:52.920 --> 00:27:55.799
<v Speaker 1>a known communist strategy, marks a strategy they called the

478
00:27:55.839 --> 00:28:00.799
<v Speaker 1>clergy the easiest to manipulate. So yeah, when they write

479
00:28:00.839 --> 00:28:03.440
<v Speaker 1>these articles, and again I haven't delved much into the

480
00:28:03.480 --> 00:28:06.240
<v Speaker 1>Seven Mountain mandate, I've heard of this trotted out by

481
00:28:06.480 --> 00:28:08.920
<v Speaker 1>even l or not even jocal outlets left this outlets

482
00:28:08.960 --> 00:28:11.960
<v Speaker 1>like The New York Times to really like highlight, they're

483
00:28:11.960 --> 00:28:15.400
<v Speaker 1>always going to find like a bad example, right, Oh,

484
00:28:15.440 --> 00:28:18.279
<v Speaker 1>this is a prime example of what we're trying to

485
00:28:18.519 --> 00:28:21.880
<v Speaker 1>get rid of. So let's use the most either egregious

486
00:28:22.079 --> 00:28:24.680
<v Speaker 1>or kind of warped version of it in order to

487
00:28:24.720 --> 00:28:27.480
<v Speaker 1>show you how ugly it is in order to suppress

488
00:28:27.480 --> 00:28:31.039
<v Speaker 1>your instincts for self preservation. And once you kind of

489
00:28:31.039 --> 00:28:34.759
<v Speaker 1>see the game, it becomes very frustrating because you're trying

490
00:28:34.759 --> 00:28:36.519
<v Speaker 1>to explain the game to other people, but they're they're

491
00:28:36.559 --> 00:28:39.559
<v Speaker 1>still very concerned. They give you the concern. Bro. Yeah,

492
00:28:39.599 --> 00:28:41.480
<v Speaker 1>but like that's a bad movement. I'm like, I'm not

493
00:28:41.519 --> 00:28:43.880
<v Speaker 1>here to talk about that movement. I don't I know

494
00:28:44.039 --> 00:28:46.599
<v Speaker 1>very little to nothing about that movement. But it's a

495
00:28:46.599 --> 00:28:49.119
<v Speaker 1>game that's being played on you. And what they want

496
00:28:49.160 --> 00:28:51.039
<v Speaker 1>you to do is just be what conservatives have been,

497
00:28:51.079 --> 00:28:52.119
<v Speaker 1>which is beautiful losers.

498
00:28:52.200 --> 00:28:52.319
<v Speaker 2>Right.

499
00:28:52.359 --> 00:28:56.799
<v Speaker 1>They want you to just accept leftist dominance. Accept you're

500
00:28:56.799 --> 00:28:58.359
<v Speaker 1>going to live in a box and eat the bugs

501
00:28:58.880 --> 00:29:01.480
<v Speaker 1>like they will. And they want you they want to

502
00:29:01.480 --> 00:29:03.920
<v Speaker 1>provide you with a message on Sunday that's basically going

503
00:29:03.960 --> 00:29:07.079
<v Speaker 1>to placate you into subservience. Right to worry, be a

504
00:29:07.079 --> 00:29:09.440
<v Speaker 1>stranger in your own land. And this kind of behavior

505
00:29:09.480 --> 00:29:12.400
<v Speaker 1>from a pastor, from preachers, from evangelical leaders is absolutely

506
00:29:12.400 --> 00:29:17.240
<v Speaker 1>despicable to me. It's shameful behavior. Again, I don't count

507
00:29:17.279 --> 00:29:22.200
<v Speaker 1>them as enemies necessarily, but I think they're definitely you know,

508
00:29:22.279 --> 00:29:24.839
<v Speaker 1>co belligerence with the left when they trot out these ideas.

509
00:29:25.039 --> 00:29:26.480
<v Speaker 1>And what I want, for the reason I wrote the

510
00:29:26.480 --> 00:29:29.279
<v Speaker 1>book is not just to critique that, but to give

511
00:29:29.319 --> 00:29:31.160
<v Speaker 1>a more positive vision. What would it look like to

512
00:29:31.200 --> 00:29:34.720
<v Speaker 1>actually encourage men and families and women to stand strong

513
00:29:34.720 --> 00:29:37.200
<v Speaker 1>in the face of cultural forces that are ever encroaching

514
00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:40.720
<v Speaker 1>upon them that setro wrote their way of life in

515
00:29:40.759 --> 00:29:43.720
<v Speaker 1>any given nation, whether it's America, England, France, whatever it

516
00:29:43.759 --> 00:29:46.079
<v Speaker 1>may be, you know, how do we fight this stuff? Well,

517
00:29:46.119 --> 00:29:48.079
<v Speaker 1>I think for me it comes down to men. We

518
00:29:48.119 --> 00:29:52.279
<v Speaker 1>need strong, courageous men rooted in Christ using power agency

519
00:29:52.400 --> 00:29:56.359
<v Speaker 1>influence their propensity to pursue their creation, mandate the domini,

520
00:29:56.400 --> 00:30:00.799
<v Speaker 1>mandate for God's glory, and to pre tech their families,

521
00:30:00.799 --> 00:30:03.839
<v Speaker 1>to protect their civilization from forces of darkness, whether that's

522
00:30:03.880 --> 00:30:05.559
<v Speaker 1>outside forces or forces of Then.

523
00:30:06.279 --> 00:30:12.039
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's that tactic, right of Oh, I've found someone

524
00:30:12.079 --> 00:30:15.200
<v Speaker 2>who nominally agrees with you, who's ikey and gross, therefore

525
00:30:15.279 --> 00:30:18.559
<v Speaker 2>you are ikey and gross. Again. It's middle school stuff,

526
00:30:18.799 --> 00:30:22.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, It's not particularly sophisticated, but it works, particularly

527
00:30:23.440 --> 00:30:27.200
<v Speaker 2>because the evangelical world, whether they want to believe it

528
00:30:27.319 --> 00:30:30.440
<v Speaker 2>or not, are desperate for approval. You see the same

529
00:30:30.440 --> 00:30:33.640
<v Speaker 2>thing with like the LDS guys, which don't want to

530
00:30:33.680 --> 00:30:37.359
<v Speaker 2>start a fight with the Mormons, but they exist in

531
00:30:37.359 --> 00:30:41.160
<v Speaker 2>this bizarre position of being an outsider and of being

532
00:30:41.559 --> 00:30:44.680
<v Speaker 2>the butt of every joke for so long that they

533
00:30:44.720 --> 00:30:47.960
<v Speaker 2>start to act very, very desperate for approval, and so

534
00:30:48.039 --> 00:30:51.000
<v Speaker 2>they will tie themselves into not trying to form this

535
00:30:51.039 --> 00:30:55.839
<v Speaker 2>sort of bizarre syncratic mix of general culture and their

536
00:30:55.880 --> 00:31:00.000
<v Speaker 2>specific faith tradition. Conversation for another time. So the next

537
00:31:00.079 --> 00:31:04.440
<v Speaker 2>part of your thesis statement talking about obviously the power

538
00:31:04.440 --> 00:31:08.000
<v Speaker 2>that men have being stripped by a culture that reduces

539
00:31:08.240 --> 00:31:12.440
<v Speaker 2>manhood to ideas. So this might be my favorite part

540
00:31:12.440 --> 00:31:14.839
<v Speaker 2>of the book. At least. The thing that really grabbed

541
00:31:14.880 --> 00:31:17.880
<v Speaker 2>my attention was the way you talk about the link

542
00:31:18.039 --> 00:31:23.400
<v Speaker 2>between manhood and embodiment. So you mentioned earlier, of course,

543
00:31:23.440 --> 00:31:27.599
<v Speaker 2>the Matt Walsh documentary reducing a woman to adult human female.

544
00:31:27.880 --> 00:31:32.720
<v Speaker 2>Obviously tactically when you were talking to it insane troon

545
00:31:33.319 --> 00:31:38.240
<v Speaker 2>that that argument works, but as a totalizing definition, it

546
00:31:38.319 --> 00:31:41.920
<v Speaker 2>leaves a lot out there. So I'm curious what is

547
00:31:42.279 --> 00:31:46.279
<v Speaker 2>your view. I imagine it contrasts with the simply biological,

548
00:31:46.359 --> 00:31:51.319
<v Speaker 2>the simply sort of Oxford Dictionary description, and why does

549
00:31:51.319 --> 00:31:51.799
<v Speaker 2>that matter?

550
00:31:52.279 --> 00:31:55.039
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, men were made for glory. They were meant in

551
00:31:55.079 --> 00:31:58.440
<v Speaker 1>design to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. This comes

552
00:31:58.440 --> 00:32:02.039
<v Speaker 1>from the Westminster Catechism, of course, But men are designed

553
00:32:02.559 --> 00:32:04.640
<v Speaker 1>And this is where you know, you get these and

554
00:32:04.720 --> 00:32:06.680
<v Speaker 1>I love this kind of stuff, don't. I used to

555
00:32:06.759 --> 00:32:09.839
<v Speaker 1>kind of cringe at it. But you'll get evangelicals who

556
00:32:09.920 --> 00:32:12.079
<v Speaker 1>talk about kind of the God shaped hole in your

557
00:32:12.079 --> 00:32:16.400
<v Speaker 1>heart right or these kind of evangelistic strategies, and it's

558
00:32:16.440 --> 00:32:18.759
<v Speaker 1>easy to pick on that stuff. But there's actually some

559
00:32:18.839 --> 00:32:21.240
<v Speaker 1>biblical truth in there. Right, we see in Ecclesiastes in

560
00:32:21.279 --> 00:32:23.599
<v Speaker 1>many other places that God has set eternity in the

561
00:32:23.680 --> 00:32:28.839
<v Speaker 1>hearts of men. Men have a desire for this eternal glory, right,

562
00:32:29.160 --> 00:32:31.359
<v Speaker 1>we watch movies that celebrate it. We want to be

563
00:32:32.039 --> 00:32:35.680
<v Speaker 1>like Maximus and Gladiator. We want to be the hero

564
00:32:35.920 --> 00:32:40.039
<v Speaker 1>of the story. Obviously, Christ is the hero of the story.

565
00:32:40.079 --> 00:32:43.440
<v Speaker 1>And yet we all have our own journey. We all

566
00:32:43.480 --> 00:32:46.039
<v Speaker 1>have control and agency our own life and where we're

567
00:32:46.039 --> 00:32:48.839
<v Speaker 1>going to end up to under God's providence and sovereignty.

568
00:32:49.240 --> 00:32:51.240
<v Speaker 1>And we should turn to Christ so that we can

569
00:32:51.359 --> 00:32:54.319
<v Speaker 1>enjoy that glory forever and ultimately relish in His beauty

570
00:32:54.359 --> 00:32:57.960
<v Speaker 1>and majesty. But that itself is the destination men. That

571
00:32:58.039 --> 00:33:00.119
<v Speaker 1>is what men were built for, and by a log

572
00:33:00.359 --> 00:33:03.519
<v Speaker 1>they were fit for the task of not just being

573
00:33:03.599 --> 00:33:07.160
<v Speaker 1>hungry for glory, but being vice regents in the world,

574
00:33:07.359 --> 00:33:10.880
<v Speaker 1>and so their very bodies cry out for dominion. There's

575
00:33:10.920 --> 00:33:14.039
<v Speaker 1>a there's a sense of expansiveness to men where they

576
00:33:14.039 --> 00:33:17.039
<v Speaker 1>want to take over. They want to like have, whether

577
00:33:17.039 --> 00:33:19.480
<v Speaker 1>it's your you're a sales rep and you want to

578
00:33:19.960 --> 00:33:23.039
<v Speaker 1>you know, crush the competitors, or you're a political figure

579
00:33:23.119 --> 00:33:26.920
<v Speaker 1>and you want to ascertain national sovereignty. This is natural

580
00:33:26.960 --> 00:33:29.839
<v Speaker 1>biologically to men. This of course gets corrupted by the

581
00:33:29.839 --> 00:33:36.119
<v Speaker 1>fall biologically, but those biological propensities don't go away, they

582
00:33:36.160 --> 00:33:38.440
<v Speaker 1>just get warped. They get corrupted, so that men now

583
00:33:38.519 --> 00:33:44.079
<v Speaker 1>sin and very great capacities because of their power and authority.

584
00:33:44.119 --> 00:33:47.200
<v Speaker 1>This is why the majority and not to get on

585
00:33:47.480 --> 00:33:49.640
<v Speaker 1>prisons or anything like this, but the majority of crime

586
00:33:49.720 --> 00:33:53.039
<v Speaker 1>is committed by men, right, The majority of dangerous jobs

587
00:33:53.079 --> 00:33:57.720
<v Speaker 1>men do, the majority of murder, and the prison population

588
00:33:57.880 --> 00:34:02.680
<v Speaker 1>is men. It because men have naturally been imbued with

589
00:34:02.799 --> 00:34:05.799
<v Speaker 1>a sense of dominion and agency and power where they

590
00:34:05.839 --> 00:34:09.239
<v Speaker 1>want to influence, They want to change things. They see

591
00:34:09.400 --> 00:34:12.360
<v Speaker 1>something that is unmade and they want to make it

592
00:34:12.400 --> 00:34:15.360
<v Speaker 1>better or in the negative way, and sometimes it's necessary

593
00:34:15.400 --> 00:34:17.440
<v Speaker 1>to kind of burn the ship, so to speak. But

594
00:34:18.519 --> 00:34:21.119
<v Speaker 1>you also want to change things. You want to make

595
00:34:21.159 --> 00:34:23.440
<v Speaker 1>the system different or make your life different, and you

596
00:34:23.519 --> 00:34:28.440
<v Speaker 1>can do those things. But men were fit biologically for

597
00:34:28.559 --> 00:34:31.760
<v Speaker 1>glory and ultimately to find glory in God.

598
00:34:31.840 --> 00:34:37.320
<v Speaker 2>First of all, and by extension. Sorry, my book was

599
00:34:37.480 --> 00:34:41.360
<v Speaker 2>resting on the mute button, so that's probably scuffed. But

600
00:34:41.800 --> 00:34:45.320
<v Speaker 2>both the conservative and the evangelical world are very quick

601
00:34:45.480 --> 00:34:53.119
<v Speaker 2>to assert that women are not defective men, which is true. However,

602
00:34:53.880 --> 00:34:58.920
<v Speaker 2>they are very quick to, whether implicitly or explicitly, assume

603
00:34:58.960 --> 00:35:02.840
<v Speaker 2>that men are dysfunctional women. We see this in education,

604
00:35:03.079 --> 00:35:06.679
<v Speaker 2>for example, even at Christian schools, and you know what,

605
00:35:06.760 --> 00:35:08.199
<v Speaker 2>I'm the product of that. I feel like I had

606
00:35:08.199 --> 00:35:12.400
<v Speaker 2>a very good education there. But they are similarly biased

607
00:35:12.440 --> 00:35:16.280
<v Speaker 2>against young men in the way that the day is scheduled,

608
00:35:16.440 --> 00:35:21.119
<v Speaker 2>the kind of punishment of certain infractions. But we see

609
00:35:21.159 --> 00:35:24.760
<v Speaker 2>the same thing sort of echoed throughout the conservative and

610
00:35:24.800 --> 00:35:30.639
<v Speaker 2>evangelical world. So you see this expectation that to be godly,

611
00:35:30.960 --> 00:35:36.679
<v Speaker 2>or to be particularly devout, you have to effectively act

612
00:35:36.800 --> 00:35:40.239
<v Speaker 2>like your in therapy at all times, right, that is

613
00:35:40.280 --> 00:35:43.599
<v Speaker 2>the appropriate way to interact one to another. And it

614
00:35:43.679 --> 00:35:46.960
<v Speaker 2>kind of very sort of I guess you would say,

615
00:35:47.199 --> 00:35:51.840
<v Speaker 2>overly emotional, hyper sort of confessing way, not in the

616
00:35:51.880 --> 00:35:53.800
<v Speaker 2>Christian sense of that word, and sort of a more

617
00:35:54.239 --> 00:35:57.000
<v Speaker 2>kind of talk therapy, sitting down on the couch sense.

618
00:35:57.760 --> 00:36:01.320
<v Speaker 2>And I find that dissonance really irritating. It's like, okay, yeah,

619
00:36:01.400 --> 00:36:03.519
<v Speaker 2>I agree with you on that premise. Women are not

620
00:36:03.599 --> 00:36:07.119
<v Speaker 2>faulty men. Seemingly the converse should be true as well.

621
00:36:07.239 --> 00:36:10.119
<v Speaker 2>Right if these are two distinct categories, each with its

622
00:36:10.159 --> 00:36:12.679
<v Speaker 2>own sort of I guess you could say God given

623
00:36:12.760 --> 00:36:15.639
<v Speaker 2>roles and gifts, then it stands to reason both of

624
00:36:15.679 --> 00:36:19.159
<v Speaker 2>those things are important. And in this book you use

625
00:36:19.199 --> 00:36:23.599
<v Speaker 2>a term that I particularly like, called sex gnosticism. I

626
00:36:23.639 --> 00:36:26.239
<v Speaker 2>appreciate the brief aside where you talk about how gnosticism

627
00:36:26.360 --> 00:36:30.480
<v Speaker 2>might be one of the most myths and overused terms

628
00:36:30.519 --> 00:36:33.920
<v Speaker 2>because it equally gets on my nerves. So just a

629
00:36:33.960 --> 00:36:36.719
<v Speaker 2>brief aside there, But what do you mean when you

630
00:36:36.760 --> 00:36:39.880
<v Speaker 2>talk about sex gnosticism? Because it was a great term,

631
00:36:39.920 --> 00:36:41.320
<v Speaker 2>and as soon as I read it, I was like, oh,

632
00:36:41.519 --> 00:36:44.480
<v Speaker 2>that's exactly what you were describing so manyay, I'll kick

633
00:36:44.519 --> 00:36:45.239
<v Speaker 2>it back to you jays.

634
00:36:45.880 --> 00:36:48.239
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's kind of this acting like one on the

635
00:36:48.280 --> 00:36:51.239
<v Speaker 1>one hand, we can't know the differences on the soul

636
00:36:51.360 --> 00:36:56.199
<v Speaker 1>level between men and women. It's kind of like not colorblind,

637
00:36:56.239 --> 00:36:59.079
<v Speaker 1>but sex blind. And on the other hand, yet the

638
00:36:59.480 --> 00:37:04.800
<v Speaker 1>sex determines truth, and so you'll get, you know, lived

639
00:37:04.840 --> 00:37:09.239
<v Speaker 1>experience type language that kind of trumps any kind of

640
00:37:09.880 --> 00:37:13.760
<v Speaker 1>outside knowledge or base reality about what it means to

641
00:37:13.800 --> 00:37:16.760
<v Speaker 1>be a man. So like this is the typical kind

642
00:37:16.800 --> 00:37:20.159
<v Speaker 1>of female way of reasoning. You'll say a general statement

643
00:37:20.199 --> 00:37:21.840
<v Speaker 1>about a population and they'd be like, well, that's not

644
00:37:21.880 --> 00:37:23.920
<v Speaker 1>true for everyone, right, So it's just kind of a

645
00:37:24.920 --> 00:37:28.719
<v Speaker 1>defense mechanism where we can't know anything, and yet we

646
00:37:28.760 --> 00:37:30.840
<v Speaker 1>can also have full authority to speak to everything at

647
00:37:30.840 --> 00:37:33.000
<v Speaker 1>the same time. So there's this kind of willing blindness

648
00:37:33.519 --> 00:37:39.119
<v Speaker 1>about the differences, where we're blind to differences between the sexes,

649
00:37:39.639 --> 00:37:41.960
<v Speaker 1>and yet we assert kind of these general things, like

650
00:37:42.000 --> 00:37:46.199
<v Speaker 1>you mentioned that men are somehow defunct women, and this

651
00:37:46.239 --> 00:37:48.960
<v Speaker 1>has been trotted out since the Victorian era. Specifically, I

652
00:37:49.000 --> 00:37:51.000
<v Speaker 1>know some I was listening to something the other day

653
00:37:51.480 --> 00:37:55.119
<v Speaker 1>where somebody connects it to Bernard of Clairvaux, where I

654
00:37:55.119 --> 00:37:58.719
<v Speaker 1>think it was Albert Mohler, maybe I don't remember, But basically,

655
00:37:58.800 --> 00:38:04.400
<v Speaker 1>the turn from spirit virtuality being an outward kind of obedience, conformity,

656
00:38:04.920 --> 00:38:09.320
<v Speaker 1>religious behavior with duties attendant duties fitting to your station

657
00:38:09.480 --> 00:38:13.159
<v Speaker 1>and your sex, to an inward personal experience. And I

658
00:38:13.159 --> 00:38:14.880
<v Speaker 1>go into this in great detail on the book. I

659
00:38:15.119 --> 00:38:17.639
<v Speaker 1>of course am tying it back to kind of Enlightenment

660
00:38:17.679 --> 00:38:20.679
<v Speaker 1>reasoning and rationalism and romanticism and Pietism, all this kind

661
00:38:20.679 --> 00:38:24.000
<v Speaker 1>of stuff. But there's this kind of a willing blindness

662
00:38:24.159 --> 00:38:26.119
<v Speaker 1>where we can't talk about the differences, and if we do,

663
00:38:26.719 --> 00:38:28.840
<v Speaker 1>we're somehow like bigots or something like this. This is

664
00:38:28.920 --> 00:38:32.119
<v Speaker 1>just nonsense. Those are just magic words that people try

665
00:38:32.119 --> 00:38:34.320
<v Speaker 1>out to try to get you to be quiet. And

666
00:38:34.400 --> 00:38:36.119
<v Speaker 1>so instead what we should do is just honor the

667
00:38:36.199 --> 00:38:40.320
<v Speaker 1>distinct nature of men and women, you know. And a

668
00:38:40.360 --> 00:38:42.840
<v Speaker 1>lot of people, even by talking about this, they're like, well,

669
00:38:42.840 --> 00:38:45.519
<v Speaker 1>that's demeaning to women. I'm like, I literally have said

670
00:38:45.519 --> 00:38:48.320
<v Speaker 1>no thing I have in the book. I thoroughly say

671
00:38:48.360 --> 00:38:51.000
<v Speaker 1>that women themselves are valuable to the Lord. They have

672
00:38:51.039 --> 00:38:55.440
<v Speaker 1>a place in this great civilizational test, this great kingdom work,

673
00:38:55.920 --> 00:39:00.239
<v Speaker 1>you could say, to expand God's kingdom. They're fundamental and

674
00:39:00.440 --> 00:39:04.880
<v Speaker 1>essential to the propagation of the human race for first

675
00:39:04.960 --> 00:39:07.920
<v Speaker 1>of all with them being able to bear children, but

676
00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:15.800
<v Speaker 1>also but they're also you know, uniquely designed. That's why

677
00:39:15.920 --> 00:39:18.400
<v Speaker 1>Eve was creative for Adam to be. Has helped me

678
00:39:18.519 --> 00:39:22.599
<v Speaker 1>to come alongside him and accomplish things. And uh, I

679
00:39:22.599 --> 00:39:25.199
<v Speaker 1>don't go into a lot of detail on women in

680
00:39:25.239 --> 00:39:28.039
<v Speaker 1>the book, not because I wish to ignore them. I'm

681
00:39:28.079 --> 00:39:32.519
<v Speaker 1>speaking to men. I want men to remember who they are,

682
00:39:32.840 --> 00:39:36.880
<v Speaker 1>remember why they as a young boy, had these instincts,

683
00:39:36.920 --> 00:39:39.920
<v Speaker 1>and to know that like, yes, your education, yes, your

684
00:39:39.960 --> 00:39:44.119
<v Speaker 1>college and university, yes, culture and movies and propaganda, and yes,

685
00:39:44.199 --> 00:39:47.559
<v Speaker 1>even sometimes your church has told you those basic instincts

686
00:39:47.599 --> 00:39:51.280
<v Speaker 1>to protect, to provide, to win, to achieve that desire

687
00:39:51.320 --> 00:39:53.880
<v Speaker 1>for glory you have. Those are not necessarily wrong instincts.

688
00:39:54.000 --> 00:39:57.280
<v Speaker 1>They may be directed towards bad ends, but we want

689
00:39:57.360 --> 00:40:00.719
<v Speaker 1>men to be creatures that God made them to be,

690
00:40:01.119 --> 00:40:03.239
<v Speaker 1>to pursue glory, To go out and try to take

691
00:40:03.280 --> 00:40:07.519
<v Speaker 1>a risk, make something of yourself, stand up and you know,

692
00:40:07.599 --> 00:40:11.480
<v Speaker 1>stand for your own family, your own religion, and not

693
00:40:11.639 --> 00:40:15.280
<v Speaker 1>bow in the faces of these cultural pressures. We're recording

694
00:40:15.440 --> 00:40:18.559
<v Speaker 1>as of now during the you know, this secular high

695
00:40:18.559 --> 00:40:23.159
<v Speaker 1>Holy month, the secular Ramadan, the Pride month, where they

696
00:40:23.559 --> 00:40:27.199
<v Speaker 1>trod out this perversion out there, and many Christians just

697
00:40:27.239 --> 00:40:29.320
<v Speaker 1>kind of go like, oh, you know, I'm not going

698
00:40:29.360 --> 00:40:30.880
<v Speaker 1>to speak about it. I don't want to offend. And

699
00:40:30.920 --> 00:40:33.440
<v Speaker 1>I'm like, oh, my goodness, we're so far gone. We're

700
00:40:33.480 --> 00:40:35.679
<v Speaker 1>so far gone. I don't believe all is lost. But

701
00:40:36.079 --> 00:40:38.679
<v Speaker 1>this kind of attitude is really shameful in terms of

702
00:40:38.719 --> 00:40:40.079
<v Speaker 1>when we look at our history and what we're made

703
00:40:40.119 --> 00:40:42.719
<v Speaker 1>for men should be the front lines speaking up about

704
00:40:42.719 --> 00:40:44.960
<v Speaker 1>the truth of marriage, about the beauty of women and

705
00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:46.719
<v Speaker 1>what they were made for, about what men were made for,

706
00:40:46.800 --> 00:40:51.119
<v Speaker 1>and assuming leadership roles and asserting themselves and really not

707
00:40:51.239 --> 00:40:54.320
<v Speaker 1>bothering themselves with all the naysayers and the narratives that

708
00:40:54.360 --> 00:40:56.480
<v Speaker 1>are kind of foisted upon them by the world which

709
00:40:56.559 --> 00:40:57.960
<v Speaker 1>seeks to suppress their nature.

710
00:40:58.599 --> 00:41:02.360
<v Speaker 2>So the next section of your thesis statement strikes at

711
00:41:02.440 --> 00:41:09.440
<v Speaker 2>something absolutely pivotal, which is the role of quote unquote empathy.

712
00:41:10.079 --> 00:41:14.320
<v Speaker 2>And we mentioned earlier the sort of double standard around power.

713
00:41:14.360 --> 00:41:18.480
<v Speaker 2>We see something very similar with empathy. So, for instance,

714
00:41:18.559 --> 00:41:25.280
<v Speaker 2>there's limitless empathy for certain crimes, for instance, you know

715
00:41:26.440 --> 00:41:31.760
<v Speaker 2>less than optimal past sexual behavior, a whole number of

716
00:41:31.800 --> 00:41:37.599
<v Speaker 2>different left wing policies where if you are, let's be honest, rude,

717
00:41:38.159 --> 00:41:40.519
<v Speaker 2>if you say something you're not supposed to in sort

718
00:41:40.519 --> 00:41:43.320
<v Speaker 2>of a right word direction, you were cast into a

719
00:41:43.320 --> 00:41:47.519
<v Speaker 2>proverbial lake of fire. You become a shudra, an untouchable

720
00:41:47.639 --> 00:41:51.360
<v Speaker 2>if you will. So that being said, why is empathy

721
00:41:51.360 --> 00:41:55.559
<v Speaker 2>important in this discussion? Why is it something that bears

722
00:41:55.679 --> 00:41:59.559
<v Speaker 2>mentioned Because at least right off rip, you'd assume, well,

723
00:42:00.199 --> 00:42:02.400
<v Speaker 2>other than passing mention, why is it important to talk

724
00:42:02.440 --> 00:42:05.119
<v Speaker 2>about empathy in a book about men? Right, it's not

725
00:42:05.239 --> 00:42:07.119
<v Speaker 2>normally a trade associated.

726
00:42:06.559 --> 00:42:10.280
<v Speaker 1>With Yeah, it really is not a trade associated with them.

727
00:42:10.480 --> 00:42:16.039
<v Speaker 1>And even biologically, most men find it rather distasteful kind

728
00:42:16.039 --> 00:42:19.599
<v Speaker 1>of to engage in kind of these empathy games. And

729
00:42:19.920 --> 00:42:24.000
<v Speaker 1>there's good instincts that men have to not look at

730
00:42:24.239 --> 00:42:30.000
<v Speaker 1>perversion in society and think I should have compassion on that. Right. Unfortunately,

731
00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:33.239
<v Speaker 1>a lot of even jocals using concepts again kind of

732
00:42:33.239 --> 00:42:36.480
<v Speaker 1>trophy phrases like well, we want to love the sin,

733
00:42:37.000 --> 00:42:39.000
<v Speaker 1>or love the sin or hate the sin. This is

734
00:42:39.239 --> 00:42:42.760
<v Speaker 1>common refrain, and it muddles the brain. It gets in

735
00:42:42.760 --> 00:42:45.920
<v Speaker 1>there like a mind virus and makes them incapable of

736
00:42:46.000 --> 00:42:48.840
<v Speaker 1>reasoning through things. And all of a sudden, now we

737
00:42:48.880 --> 00:42:52.599
<v Speaker 1>can't punish sin, or even punish crime for that matter.

738
00:42:52.920 --> 00:42:56.119
<v Speaker 1>We have to be endlessly empathetic. We have to listen

739
00:42:56.199 --> 00:43:00.719
<v Speaker 1>to others and listen and learn endlessly about other people's experience.

740
00:43:01.760 --> 00:43:03.960
<v Speaker 1>And this is just the common narrative. It gets also

741
00:43:03.960 --> 00:43:07.079
<v Speaker 1>into my section on niceness, how basically the end all

742
00:43:07.079 --> 00:43:08.679
<v Speaker 1>be all for a man is to just be nice.

743
00:43:08.800 --> 00:43:12.559
<v Speaker 1>Be nice. Seriously, the leftist kind of redditor will say,

744
00:43:12.920 --> 00:43:15.119
<v Speaker 1>be a decent human being, you know, this kind of

745
00:43:15.719 --> 00:43:17.480
<v Speaker 1>this kind of stuff. And so the idea there is

746
00:43:17.519 --> 00:43:20.000
<v Speaker 1>like we're going to be empathetic. It's incredibly hypocritical. They're

747
00:43:20.039 --> 00:43:22.559
<v Speaker 1>never empathetic to the right. You know, they constantly are

748
00:43:22.599 --> 00:43:28.400
<v Speaker 1>are unpersoning people who are threatening people with heinous crimes.

749
00:43:28.719 --> 00:43:33.199
<v Speaker 1>If you mentioned anything about natural order or hierarchy or

750
00:43:33.199 --> 00:43:35.519
<v Speaker 1>any kind of these things, or speak up at a

751
00:43:35.519 --> 00:43:38.360
<v Speaker 1>pulpit about these matters, you know, they're going to try

752
00:43:38.400 --> 00:43:40.400
<v Speaker 1>to come after you. But no, we have to be

753
00:43:40.440 --> 00:43:44.239
<v Speaker 1>empathetic to any kind of crime, perversion in society, or

754
00:43:44.280 --> 00:43:47.239
<v Speaker 1>people who practice false religion publicly. We have to be empathetic,

755
00:43:47.559 --> 00:43:50.199
<v Speaker 1>don't you understand. You know, that's just their culture. That's

756
00:43:50.199 --> 00:43:53.360
<v Speaker 1>how they were raised. These people that come over and

757
00:43:53.800 --> 00:43:58.079
<v Speaker 1>you know, play play music on their iPhones on speakerphone,

758
00:43:58.079 --> 00:44:00.960
<v Speaker 1>on public transportation or in public at Walgreens, they're just

759
00:44:00.960 --> 00:44:03.400
<v Speaker 1>walking around and this is just their culture. That's how

760
00:44:03.480 --> 00:44:05.880
<v Speaker 1>they're raised. And it's like, no, it's like we can

761
00:44:06.000 --> 00:44:07.800
<v Speaker 1>just not like that, Like we don't have to just

762
00:44:07.880 --> 00:44:12.079
<v Speaker 1>like empathize with Well, that's just their lived experience which

763
00:44:12.119 --> 00:44:15.239
<v Speaker 1>is trotted out so often, and so for me, it

764
00:44:15.239 --> 00:44:18.320
<v Speaker 1>comes down a lot to authenticity, which I also critique

765
00:44:18.320 --> 00:44:20.880
<v Speaker 1>in the book, kind of the paradigm of living your

766
00:44:20.880 --> 00:44:23.840
<v Speaker 1>true self, kind of the disneyfication of evangelicalism, where like

767
00:44:23.880 --> 00:44:27.639
<v Speaker 1>the gold standard of spiritual maturity is being authentic, but

768
00:44:27.800 --> 00:44:31.239
<v Speaker 1>you can be authentically good, authentically evil. Authenticity is a

769
00:44:31.280 --> 00:44:34.840
<v Speaker 1>negligible term that has really no attachment to virtue. You

770
00:44:34.880 --> 00:44:38.800
<v Speaker 1>want to be sincere, but even sincerity is again, you

771
00:44:38.840 --> 00:44:42.440
<v Speaker 1>could be heinously evil and very sincere about it. So

772
00:44:42.639 --> 00:44:45.199
<v Speaker 1>it's not necessarily a virtue that we're supposed to embody.

773
00:44:45.880 --> 00:44:49.119
<v Speaker 1>But because of this kind of empathy game, most people

774
00:44:49.159 --> 00:44:52.280
<v Speaker 1>just hear sincerity or earnestness in someone and they're like, well,

775
00:44:52.280 --> 00:44:53.920
<v Speaker 1>I should listen to them. We should listen and learn

776
00:44:54.000 --> 00:44:54.559
<v Speaker 1>from everyone.

777
00:44:55.159 --> 00:44:58.880
<v Speaker 2>I mean, say what you will chase. At least Genghis

778
00:44:58.920 --> 00:45:01.840
<v Speaker 2>Khan was living his true you know, there's no self delusion.

779
00:45:01.960 --> 00:45:06.199
<v Speaker 1>There was very sincere and earnest warlord.

780
00:45:07.440 --> 00:45:10.280
<v Speaker 2>Sincerely want to remove your head from your body and

781
00:45:10.280 --> 00:45:13.400
<v Speaker 2>turn it into a pyramid of skull. I mean lying

782
00:45:13.480 --> 00:45:18.599
<v Speaker 2>to you well again, right, that is something that to

783
00:45:18.639 --> 00:45:23.440
<v Speaker 2>your point, has really crippled a lot of Christian institutions

784
00:45:23.440 --> 00:45:28.039
<v Speaker 2>because it and these people, whoever you, whoever they are

785
00:45:28.079 --> 00:45:30.960
<v Speaker 2>in your brain, are very adept at this, which is

786
00:45:31.039 --> 00:45:35.559
<v Speaker 2>taking a charitable inclination, right, a desire to do the

787
00:45:35.639 --> 00:45:40.880
<v Speaker 2>right thing, and weaponizing it against fundamentally good people, A

788
00:45:41.000 --> 00:45:43.320
<v Speaker 2>term I don't particularly like due to the fact that

789
00:45:43.400 --> 00:45:45.960
<v Speaker 2>John Calvin's been beaten into my brain, but functionally will

790
00:45:45.960 --> 00:45:50.480
<v Speaker 2>go with it. Right, But in all seriousness, evangelicals need

791
00:45:50.480 --> 00:45:54.920
<v Speaker 2>to wrestle with the fact that effectively, what a state

792
00:45:55.000 --> 00:45:59.559
<v Speaker 2>does not punish, it condones that simply by refusing to

793
00:45:59.679 --> 00:46:03.599
<v Speaker 2>speak out, by sort of looking the other way, by

794
00:46:03.800 --> 00:46:07.800
<v Speaker 2>sort of obsessing with bringing in more people, but you know,

795
00:46:07.920 --> 00:46:13.079
<v Speaker 2>widening the gate, sort of decreasing the barrier to entry. You're,

796
00:46:13.119 --> 00:46:17.800
<v Speaker 2>by extension, putting your stamp of approval on those bad behaviors.

797
00:46:18.559 --> 00:46:22.400
<v Speaker 2>One of the most interesting demographic trends, and albeit this

798
00:46:22.519 --> 00:46:26.000
<v Speaker 2>is still small numbers, but it is sharply departing from

799
00:46:26.039 --> 00:46:29.519
<v Speaker 2>a long term trend, is that more young men are

800
00:46:29.519 --> 00:46:34.480
<v Speaker 2>going to churches, particularly very traditional churches. Obviously the Orthodox

801
00:46:34.480 --> 00:46:38.199
<v Speaker 2>are exploding, the TLM guys are growing. My own church

802
00:46:38.199 --> 00:46:42.079
<v Speaker 2>and others like it are also seeing dramatic increases in

803
00:46:42.159 --> 00:46:45.880
<v Speaker 2>predominantly young men, and I think at least. A big

804
00:46:45.920 --> 00:46:49.039
<v Speaker 2>part of that is that guys are looking for something

805
00:46:49.400 --> 00:46:52.559
<v Speaker 2>that requires something of them, that is hard, that is difficult.

806
00:46:53.000 --> 00:46:56.679
<v Speaker 2>So many of these institutions are focused on being welcoming,

807
00:46:57.079 --> 00:47:01.280
<v Speaker 2>letting anyone in the gate. And if something is for everyone,

808
00:47:01.599 --> 00:47:05.360
<v Speaker 2>it's sort of for no one. And this endless mass

809
00:47:05.360 --> 00:47:08.400
<v Speaker 2>market appeal, like we've seen with entertainment, like we've seen

810
00:47:08.440 --> 00:47:12.119
<v Speaker 2>with every other aspect of culture, has produced just sort

811
00:47:12.159 --> 00:47:18.840
<v Speaker 2>of gray, unindividuated slop, just absolute nothing. And look, is

812
00:47:18.880 --> 00:47:23.679
<v Speaker 2>there a time and place for empathy, Sure, but be

813
00:47:24.199 --> 00:47:28.559
<v Speaker 2>very cautious when someone brings that up. There's a section

814
00:47:28.639 --> 00:47:32.360
<v Speaker 2>in this book that made me very, very angry. It's

815
00:47:33.199 --> 00:47:38.079
<v Speaker 2>a quote you pulled from John Piper talking about how

816
00:47:38.719 --> 00:47:41.280
<v Speaker 2>if a man in a ski mask broke into his

817
00:47:41.360 --> 00:47:45.880
<v Speaker 2>house and was intent on violating his wife, he wouldn't

818
00:47:45.920 --> 00:47:48.719
<v Speaker 2>do anything. It's like, I wouldn't want to be mean,

819
00:47:48.760 --> 00:47:52.039
<v Speaker 2>I wouldn't want to be rude. I'm empathizing with that person,

820
00:47:52.079 --> 00:47:55.440
<v Speaker 2>you know, I wouldn't want to cause them harm. And Okay,

821
00:47:55.440 --> 00:47:58.840
<v Speaker 2>that's a ridiculous example, ridiculous enough that he deleted it

822
00:47:58.840 --> 00:48:03.840
<v Speaker 2>at the very least. But oftentimes empathy is an excuse

823
00:48:04.840 --> 00:48:08.079
<v Speaker 2>it is an excuse to externalize problems away from me

824
00:48:08.599 --> 00:48:11.320
<v Speaker 2>to other people. So I don't want to feel icky

825
00:48:11.440 --> 00:48:14.400
<v Speaker 2>or gross or like the bad guy. So I'll just

826
00:48:14.599 --> 00:48:18.719
<v Speaker 2>keep letting this problem exist because it doesn't directly affect

827
00:48:18.719 --> 00:48:22.440
<v Speaker 2>me all while these people have the ability to cast

828
00:48:22.559 --> 00:48:27.000
<v Speaker 2>themselves as morally superior. Far from it. This is just

829
00:48:27.320 --> 00:48:32.280
<v Speaker 2>a deferral. Right. You were externalizing the consequences to someone else,

830
00:48:32.760 --> 00:48:36.239
<v Speaker 2>a behavior we see all too often. So props to

831
00:48:36.280 --> 00:48:38.400
<v Speaker 2>you for putting that example. And it did exactly what

832
00:48:38.440 --> 00:48:40.199
<v Speaker 2>it was supposed to do, which is one convinced me

833
00:48:40.280 --> 00:48:43.199
<v Speaker 2>you were right, and two made me very angry at

834
00:48:43.480 --> 00:48:45.360
<v Speaker 2>the guy who put forth that original article.

835
00:48:45.880 --> 00:48:46.639
<v Speaker 1>Yeah you're welcome.

836
00:48:46.719 --> 00:48:46.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

837
00:48:47.000 --> 00:48:49.159
<v Speaker 1>No, Piper is somebody I have his books on my

838
00:48:49.199 --> 00:48:53.119
<v Speaker 1>shelf I've learned a great deal from. But his attitude

839
00:48:53.159 --> 00:48:56.119
<v Speaker 1>on this topic I find to be pervasive, And I

840
00:48:56.159 --> 00:48:58.800
<v Speaker 1>find it to not just be pervasive, but emblematic of

841
00:48:58.800 --> 00:49:02.119
<v Speaker 1>the evangelical mood for many kind of striver churches like

842
00:49:02.159 --> 00:49:05.480
<v Speaker 1>you mentioned that are kind of obsessive over being welcoming

843
00:49:05.519 --> 00:49:08.599
<v Speaker 1>at nauseum to where they have no self respect. They're

844
00:49:08.639 --> 00:49:12.159
<v Speaker 1>kind of the pigmy church. They're the desperate for approval church.

845
00:49:12.239 --> 00:49:15.400
<v Speaker 1>I remember a few years ago our church got kicked

846
00:49:15.400 --> 00:49:18.199
<v Speaker 1>out of a location we're renting because we stood on

847
00:49:18.519 --> 00:49:22.280
<v Speaker 1>the Bible on marriage and sexuality. It's in our statement

848
00:49:22.280 --> 00:49:24.199
<v Speaker 1>of faith. You can find it boulderwell dot org find

849
00:49:24.199 --> 00:49:26.760
<v Speaker 1>our statement of faith. And simply because some redditors and

850
00:49:26.840 --> 00:49:29.400
<v Speaker 1>leftists had found it, they put pressure on the business.

851
00:49:29.440 --> 00:49:33.519
<v Speaker 1>The business canceled our lease. I talked with a bigger

852
00:49:33.639 --> 00:49:36.599
<v Speaker 1>name evangelical leader in our context and he was like,

853
00:49:36.920 --> 00:49:39.360
<v Speaker 1>you know, we're getting op eds written negatively about our church.

854
00:49:39.400 --> 00:49:41.760
<v Speaker 1>They were calling us things like, you know, we're trying

855
00:49:41.760 --> 00:49:44.360
<v Speaker 1>to be the Christian Taliban or something like this. And

856
00:49:44.400 --> 00:49:46.880
<v Speaker 1>I was like, this is not ideal. This is not

857
00:49:47.000 --> 00:49:49.559
<v Speaker 1>what people want, you know, and my church members aren't

858
00:49:49.559 --> 00:49:52.000
<v Speaker 1>going to enjoy if they have to go to work.

859
00:49:52.559 --> 00:49:55.320
<v Speaker 2>Does the Christian Taliban like, is there a tryout process

860
00:49:55.480 --> 00:49:56.960
<v Speaker 2>or is here?

861
00:49:57.519 --> 00:50:01.360
<v Speaker 1>I have no idea, No message me on Twitter and

862
00:50:01.360 --> 00:50:01.960
<v Speaker 1>ask about it.

863
00:50:03.440 --> 00:50:04.199
<v Speaker 2>Sorry.

864
00:50:03.760 --> 00:50:07.559
<v Speaker 1>So you know, I'm thinking, as a pastor, we've got

865
00:50:07.760 --> 00:50:10.360
<v Speaker 1>a congregation we're trying to shepherd. These kind of spurious

866
00:50:10.400 --> 00:50:13.199
<v Speaker 1>and slanderous accusations are being launched at a church they're

867
00:50:13.199 --> 00:50:15.480
<v Speaker 1>associated with. You know, what do we need to do

868
00:50:15.800 --> 00:50:18.760
<v Speaker 1>local evangelical thought leader Big Leader. He's like, you need

869
00:50:18.800 --> 00:50:21.639
<v Speaker 1>to launch an initiative. I'm like, okay, tell me more.

870
00:50:21.920 --> 00:50:25.719
<v Speaker 1>You need to launch an initiative called Love Boulder, and

871
00:50:25.800 --> 00:50:28.239
<v Speaker 1>it needs to be, you know, a very positive vision

872
00:50:28.280 --> 00:50:31.000
<v Speaker 1>for the city. How you're welcoming to people, how you're

873
00:50:31.039 --> 00:50:32.840
<v Speaker 1>not what they say you are. And I was like, yeah,

874
00:50:32.880 --> 00:50:35.400
<v Speaker 1>I don't think that's our speed. Man, Like that's the

875
00:50:35.480 --> 00:50:39.280
<v Speaker 1>typical evangelical response, though, is you know, we we have

876
00:50:39.360 --> 00:50:44.599
<v Speaker 1>to kind of placate and put up with whatever they

877
00:50:44.599 --> 00:50:47.000
<v Speaker 1>say about us and then prove to them, based on

878
00:50:47.039 --> 00:50:52.639
<v Speaker 1>spurious allegations and spurious slanders and implications of what we believe,

879
00:50:52.719 --> 00:50:54.960
<v Speaker 1>all of this, we have to prove to them are

880
00:50:55.440 --> 00:50:59.119
<v Speaker 1>our morality. And I'm like, we're done. That's over. I'm

881
00:50:59.119 --> 00:51:03.199
<v Speaker 1>not here to prove to people who are sinners that

882
00:51:03.280 --> 00:51:06.199
<v Speaker 1>I myself am not a sinner. Like that's not that's

883
00:51:06.239 --> 00:51:09.000
<v Speaker 1>not a game that's winnable. I'm here to preach the

884
00:51:09.000 --> 00:51:11.800
<v Speaker 1>Gospel to raise up families in Christ and I'm not

885
00:51:12.199 --> 00:51:15.840
<v Speaker 1>playing to lose and to see my children and here

886
00:51:15.840 --> 00:51:18.920
<v Speaker 1>a future where it's worse for them than it is

887
00:51:18.920 --> 00:51:22.360
<v Speaker 1>for me. And so the Piper example is very useful

888
00:51:22.360 --> 00:51:25.320
<v Speaker 1>because it's very, like I said, emblematic of a passivity

889
00:51:25.400 --> 00:51:29.079
<v Speaker 1>that is rampant in evangelicals where they don't want to

890
00:51:29.079 --> 00:51:31.960
<v Speaker 1>assert themselves. They if you talk to an evangelical and

891
00:51:32.000 --> 00:51:35.159
<v Speaker 1>mention something like we're going to impose our will on

892
00:51:35.239 --> 00:51:37.639
<v Speaker 1>our opponents, they would be like, oh, my goodness, that

893
00:51:37.719 --> 00:51:39.280
<v Speaker 1>is so on Christ, Like, you know, that's just their

894
00:51:39.400 --> 00:51:42.039
<v Speaker 1>natural way of thinking. And I'm trying to get them

895
00:51:42.079 --> 00:51:45.360
<v Speaker 1>back to the Bible. And God's designed for men to say,

896
00:51:45.760 --> 00:51:50.039
<v Speaker 1>not only is it normal that you want to win,

897
00:51:50.719 --> 00:51:55.159
<v Speaker 1>but it's also like good because you know Christ, that

898
00:51:55.280 --> 00:51:58.400
<v Speaker 1>you should want evil to be stopped. These are like

899
00:51:59.079 --> 00:52:03.400
<v Speaker 1>it's it's almost laughable that that would be controversial at

900
00:52:03.440 --> 00:52:06.719
<v Speaker 1>all in our day, but that that's like normal human experiences,

901
00:52:06.760 --> 00:52:09.639
<v Speaker 1>normal for Christians. And they'll use all sorts of Bible

902
00:52:09.719 --> 00:52:13.000
<v Speaker 1>verses to justify kind of this subservience. They want this dimitude,

903
00:52:13.039 --> 00:52:19.199
<v Speaker 1>this cultural dimitude, this kind of endless like martyrdom, and

904
00:52:19.239 --> 00:52:21.559
<v Speaker 1>that that to them is like the chief end of

905
00:52:21.599 --> 00:52:24.199
<v Speaker 1>man is to be martyred, is to live in dimitude,

906
00:52:24.639 --> 00:52:26.599
<v Speaker 1>because then at least we're pure. And I'm like, this

907
00:52:26.719 --> 00:52:31.159
<v Speaker 1>is despicable behavior. Martyrdom may come. Okay, martyrdom can happen.

908
00:52:31.199 --> 00:52:34.280
<v Speaker 1>Persecution it happened. That's not something we should pursue as

909
00:52:34.320 --> 00:52:38.000
<v Speaker 1>a policy. That's that's asinine.

910
00:52:38.320 --> 00:52:41.880
<v Speaker 2>Well, and let's let's be honest here, Well, what type

911
00:52:41.880 --> 00:52:45.719
<v Speaker 2>of martyred. It's a really easy, comfortable form, you know,

912
00:52:45.960 --> 00:52:50.159
<v Speaker 2>it's not sort of being fed toliance. It's well, I've

913
00:52:50.199 --> 00:52:52.320
<v Speaker 2>just contorted myself so that I can still go to

914
00:52:52.360 --> 00:52:55.679
<v Speaker 2>a country club without getting dirty looks. You know, it's

915
00:52:55.719 --> 00:52:58.679
<v Speaker 2>not exactly, you know, allowing yourself to be flayed to death,

916
00:52:59.079 --> 00:53:02.440
<v Speaker 2>you know, something quite that dramatic, and it reminds me

917
00:53:02.559 --> 00:53:04.880
<v Speaker 2>very much of the you know, the kind of like

918
00:53:04.960 --> 00:53:08.440
<v Speaker 2>old you know, moral quandary. You know, should you should

919
00:53:08.480 --> 00:53:11.320
<v Speaker 2>you sell your children into slavery to feed the poor,

920
00:53:11.920 --> 00:53:14.159
<v Speaker 2>which is, you know, on its face, sort of ridiculous example,

921
00:53:14.199 --> 00:53:16.719
<v Speaker 2>but it's the same thing, right, It's like, should I

922
00:53:16.760 --> 00:53:22.360
<v Speaker 2>sacrifice someone else to increase the net amount of utility

923
00:53:22.559 --> 00:53:25.239
<v Speaker 2>in the world? You know, there more people are more

924
00:53:25.280 --> 00:53:29.440
<v Speaker 2>happy because I did this. And obviously the counter is no,

925
00:53:30.039 --> 00:53:32.719
<v Speaker 2>because that's not real charity. That's not your decision to

926
00:53:32.800 --> 00:53:35.920
<v Speaker 2>make right. You were ruining someone else's life. And yet

927
00:53:36.360 --> 00:53:38.880
<v Speaker 2>this is exactly what is happening, Like, Okay, sure it's

928
00:53:38.920 --> 00:53:42.119
<v Speaker 2>not literal slavery, although you know, look at advances in

929
00:53:42.159 --> 00:53:45.519
<v Speaker 2>the modern economy, it's at least close enough. But to

930
00:53:45.639 --> 00:53:49.079
<v Speaker 2>then cast that decision, it's the morally correct, the only

931
00:53:49.119 --> 00:53:53.480
<v Speaker 2>acceptable way to act. It's absolutely totally infuriating. And if

932
00:53:53.519 --> 00:53:57.639
<v Speaker 2>there's one idea I could get across two conservatives, it's this,

933
00:53:58.639 --> 00:54:03.400
<v Speaker 2>if you are a threat to the progressives, they will

934
00:54:03.440 --> 00:54:08.159
<v Speaker 2>never stop attacking you, no matter what. Whatever thing they

935
00:54:08.239 --> 00:54:11.280
<v Speaker 2>yell at you probably won't even be true, but they

936
00:54:11.320 --> 00:54:15.119
<v Speaker 2>will keep attacking you until you are no longer a threat.

937
00:54:15.119 --> 00:54:17.000
<v Speaker 2>And let's be honest a little bit after that. That

938
00:54:17.079 --> 00:54:18.960
<v Speaker 2>is the one way to get them to go away,

939
00:54:19.199 --> 00:54:22.360
<v Speaker 2>which is to show them your belt right, to become

940
00:54:22.400 --> 00:54:27.920
<v Speaker 2>completely totally subservient and non threat. And if you accept that, hey,

941
00:54:28.679 --> 00:54:31.239
<v Speaker 2>we are enemies, we have a different view on things.

942
00:54:31.760 --> 00:54:34.199
<v Speaker 2>They're not gonna like you. It's sort of core to

943
00:54:34.280 --> 00:54:38.159
<v Speaker 2>the conception of enmity. They are going to want you

944
00:54:38.199 --> 00:54:41.039
<v Speaker 2>to go away. You sort of have to steel yourself

945
00:54:41.039 --> 00:54:43.199
<v Speaker 2>to that. There's really no way to get out of

946
00:54:43.199 --> 00:54:48.039
<v Speaker 2>that without becoming a demi, a vassal. They're ruder words

947
00:54:48.039 --> 00:54:50.760
<v Speaker 2>for that, but we'll leave it there. Those are your

948
00:54:50.760 --> 00:54:53.480
<v Speaker 2>two options. Either you're going to get called mean names

949
00:54:54.000 --> 00:54:56.159
<v Speaker 2>or you're going to get absorbed by the blob. There's

950
00:54:56.199 --> 00:55:00.360
<v Speaker 2>really nothing else. And particularly with older people, I think

951
00:55:00.400 --> 00:55:03.039
<v Speaker 2>there is a desire to return to an era in

952
00:55:03.119 --> 00:55:07.440
<v Speaker 2>which they could hold their small orthodox beliefs and not

953
00:55:07.519 --> 00:55:10.280
<v Speaker 2>face any consequences for it. And I get it. I

954
00:55:10.320 --> 00:55:12.280
<v Speaker 2>would like to live in a world where that was

955
00:55:12.320 --> 00:55:15.679
<v Speaker 2>the case, but fundamentally we don't live there. And in

956
00:55:15.800 --> 00:55:18.599
<v Speaker 2>order to get back to that, you might have to

957
00:55:18.599 --> 00:55:22.199
<v Speaker 2>be just the tiniest bit meat. You might have to

958
00:55:22.239 --> 00:55:25.760
<v Speaker 2>be a little bit intransigent, you might have to say

959
00:55:25.800 --> 00:55:28.039
<v Speaker 2>no to someone, and a lot of people are really

960
00:55:28.119 --> 00:55:32.400
<v Speaker 2>uncomfortable with that. Fundamentally, don't shoot the messenger. Okay, I'm

961
00:55:32.400 --> 00:55:34.440
<v Speaker 2>twenty seven. I didn't make this world. I was born

962
00:55:34.519 --> 00:55:39.079
<v Speaker 2>into it. So our two options are either I was

963
00:55:39.079 --> 00:55:40.559
<v Speaker 2>gonna use a rude word, We're gonna say, be a

964
00:55:40.599 --> 00:55:45.000
<v Speaker 2>demi to the regime, or get called me names. And

965
00:55:45.039 --> 00:55:47.159
<v Speaker 2>that's pretty much what it comes down to. Jase.

966
00:55:47.920 --> 00:55:49.639
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and I mean that goes back to the top

967
00:55:49.679 --> 00:55:51.519
<v Speaker 1>of my book, be willing to be an offensive Christian,

968
00:55:51.800 --> 00:55:54.440
<v Speaker 1>And again I try to nuance it on every podcast,

969
00:55:54.639 --> 00:55:58.239
<v Speaker 1>just to be exceptionally clear, like I'm not calling for

970
00:55:58.280 --> 00:56:00.719
<v Speaker 1>you to go out and just pick fights for the

971
00:56:00.760 --> 00:56:03.159
<v Speaker 1>sake of picking a fight, or to offend where we

972
00:56:03.199 --> 00:56:05.199
<v Speaker 1>shouldn't offend or anything like that. We don't want to,

973
00:56:06.400 --> 00:56:11.239
<v Speaker 1>you know, become uncivil. But the deal is with liberalism

974
00:56:11.880 --> 00:56:14.159
<v Speaker 1>is that one of the chief kind of if you

975
00:56:14.199 --> 00:56:16.800
<v Speaker 1>want to need these the word idols or ideals of

976
00:56:16.880 --> 00:56:18.960
<v Speaker 1>liberalism is this civility. We want to live in a

977
00:56:19.000 --> 00:56:22.599
<v Speaker 1>civil society. We want, you know, ideally you're talking about

978
00:56:22.599 --> 00:56:25.480
<v Speaker 1>these older people, they want less crime, They want everybody

979
00:56:25.519 --> 00:56:27.519
<v Speaker 1>to get along. You know, I think about I'm a parent,

980
00:56:27.559 --> 00:56:29.360
<v Speaker 1>I have kids. I would like for them to get along.

981
00:56:29.440 --> 00:56:31.360
<v Speaker 1>That would be nice, you know. But my son's are

982
00:56:31.440 --> 00:56:34.960
<v Speaker 1>rivals in some ways. They have a competition in them

983
00:56:35.360 --> 00:56:37.079
<v Speaker 1>and they want to be better than each other, and

984
00:56:37.119 --> 00:56:39.239
<v Speaker 1>they love each other. But that's just natural to how

985
00:56:39.239 --> 00:56:44.239
<v Speaker 1>they are. And so this worship of civility really tamps

986
00:56:44.360 --> 00:56:47.400
<v Speaker 1>a lot of male suppression to get out there and

987
00:56:47.400 --> 00:56:49.920
<v Speaker 1>speak their mind, to be honest with what they believe. Again,

988
00:56:50.159 --> 00:56:52.719
<v Speaker 1>we need to encourage young men and Christian men particularly

989
00:56:52.760 --> 00:56:57.239
<v Speaker 1>be shrewd and cunning and wise and mature. These are

990
00:56:57.360 --> 00:57:00.480
<v Speaker 1>Christian teachings that I'm teaching right now through overbs at

991
00:57:00.480 --> 00:57:02.800
<v Speaker 1>my church. We want people to be wise and know

992
00:57:02.880 --> 00:57:05.280
<v Speaker 1>the times. Part of that wisdom means, like you said,

993
00:57:05.679 --> 00:57:08.599
<v Speaker 1>soberly assessing the times we live in. And like you said,

994
00:57:08.599 --> 00:57:11.480
<v Speaker 1>if we if we live in a time where the

995
00:57:11.559 --> 00:57:14.519
<v Speaker 1>left is going, if they, you know, catch you as

996
00:57:14.559 --> 00:57:20.039
<v Speaker 1>an actor publicly or even in private that stands especially

997
00:57:20.079 --> 00:57:23.280
<v Speaker 1>on God's word that is unbending on those things, they're

998
00:57:23.280 --> 00:57:26.360
<v Speaker 1>going to do everything they can to harm you. And

999
00:57:26.400 --> 00:57:27.960
<v Speaker 1>like you said, it's it may not be martyred them

1000
00:57:27.960 --> 00:57:29.440
<v Speaker 1>and it may not be beheading, but they're going to

1001
00:57:29.559 --> 00:57:32.320
<v Speaker 1>just slander your name such that when somebody looks up

1002
00:57:32.320 --> 00:57:34.599
<v Speaker 1>your name or looks up your repetition, they're gonna they're

1003
00:57:34.599 --> 00:57:38.280
<v Speaker 1>going to essentially try to make you unemployable. And so

1004
00:57:38.840 --> 00:57:42.360
<v Speaker 1>I think it's really interesting because a lot of Christians

1005
00:57:42.360 --> 00:57:44.920
<v Speaker 1>they have in their mind kind of like I'm willing

1006
00:57:44.960 --> 00:57:46.800
<v Speaker 1>to die for Christ. We should be willing to die

1007
00:57:46.800 --> 00:57:50.039
<v Speaker 1>for Christ. Martyrdom is you know, they're okay, yeah, I'm

1008
00:57:50.039 --> 00:57:54.079
<v Speaker 1>gonna face the lions for Christ. But when it comes

1009
00:57:54.119 --> 00:57:56.800
<v Speaker 1>to lesser forms of persecution, they're like, yeah, but that's

1010
00:57:56.880 --> 00:58:00.519
<v Speaker 1>too that would cost me, you know, convenience is or

1011
00:58:00.559 --> 00:58:03.320
<v Speaker 1>comfort or you know, worst case I could get debanked

1012
00:58:04.440 --> 00:58:06.679
<v Speaker 1>or something like this, and they're not willing to do that,

1013
00:58:06.760 --> 00:58:08.159
<v Speaker 1>And it's like, what makes you think you're going to

1014
00:58:08.199 --> 00:58:10.679
<v Speaker 1>go to further forms of persecution if you're not willing

1015
00:58:10.679 --> 00:58:13.079
<v Speaker 1>to do that. And it's often done under the name

1016
00:58:13.119 --> 00:58:16.159
<v Speaker 1>of just trying to like play a game or like survive,

1017
00:58:16.400 --> 00:58:20.519
<v Speaker 1>and it typically doesn't go well. It just doesn't go well.

1018
00:58:20.599 --> 00:58:23.719
<v Speaker 1>Christians need to embrace an offensive Christianity, one that's forthright

1019
00:58:23.840 --> 00:58:27.039
<v Speaker 1>about what we believe, unflinching in the face of opposition,

1020
00:58:27.440 --> 00:58:30.639
<v Speaker 1>and also links together and networks together with other resources,

1021
00:58:30.639 --> 00:58:33.800
<v Speaker 1>because it can be very lonely if you are a Christian,

1022
00:58:33.880 --> 00:58:37.719
<v Speaker 1>especially in a more democrat context a bluer context, it

1023
00:58:37.760 --> 00:58:40.360
<v Speaker 1>can feel very lonely for many people, where it's like,

1024
00:58:40.400 --> 00:58:42.320
<v Speaker 1>am I going crazy? Am I the only one in

1025
00:58:42.320 --> 00:58:44.519
<v Speaker 1>the world who feels this way? I might find people online,

1026
00:58:44.559 --> 00:58:46.159
<v Speaker 1>but it sure would be nice to have people in

1027
00:58:46.199 --> 00:58:48.599
<v Speaker 1>real life who if I lost my job or if

1028
00:58:48.639 --> 00:58:50.960
<v Speaker 1>I needed help, I could count on them and I

1029
00:58:51.000 --> 00:58:53.199
<v Speaker 1>know they wouldn't try to corrupt my children or my

1030
00:58:53.280 --> 00:58:55.400
<v Speaker 1>family if I needed them to come into my life

1031
00:58:55.400 --> 00:59:00.480
<v Speaker 1>in a significant way, and so ultimately conservatives, but particularly Christians,

1032
00:59:00.519 --> 00:59:03.519
<v Speaker 1>need to link arms together to encourage one another, to

1033
00:59:03.559 --> 00:59:06.679
<v Speaker 1>provide resources to one another, to to form what I

1034
00:59:06.679 --> 00:59:11.000
<v Speaker 1>call in the Book of Phalanx of Christians who can withstand,

1035
00:59:11.280 --> 00:59:13.519
<v Speaker 1>because many of us are tempted in a variety of

1036
00:59:13.519 --> 00:59:17.320
<v Speaker 1>ways to either bow or capitulate, or give in or

1037
00:59:17.400 --> 00:59:20.000
<v Speaker 1>just not speak when we should speak. And I'm like, no,

1038
00:59:20.039 --> 00:59:23.039
<v Speaker 1>we should. We should be speaking more. That takes training.

1039
00:59:23.159 --> 00:59:25.360
<v Speaker 1>You're gonna have to use your voice. You're gonna fail sometimes.

1040
00:59:25.360 --> 00:59:28.039
<v Speaker 1>But we need to trust Christ and we need to

1041
00:59:28.079 --> 00:59:31.039
<v Speaker 1>carry forward his truth into the world rather than shirking back.

1042
00:59:31.559 --> 00:59:34.199
<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean at the risk of, you know, kicking

1043
00:59:34.199 --> 00:59:37.719
<v Speaker 2>a dead horse. Look, I don't know if I believe

1044
00:59:37.800 --> 00:59:40.400
<v Speaker 2>you that you're willing to be you know, sawn in

1045
00:59:40.480 --> 00:59:44.159
<v Speaker 2>half when you sort of falter when someone calls you

1046
00:59:44.199 --> 00:59:47.679
<v Speaker 2>a mean name, or I don't know, you seem to

1047
00:59:47.719 --> 00:59:50.960
<v Speaker 2>falter it like I don't know, the like Bob Evan's

1048
00:59:51.000 --> 00:59:54.800
<v Speaker 2>buffet line, you know, like sorry, I don't necessarily believe

1049
00:59:54.840 --> 00:59:59.079
<v Speaker 2>you have the will to make that call. So a

1050
00:59:59.119 --> 01:00:02.320
<v Speaker 2>couple things I want to get on to. The proscriptive,

1051
01:00:02.360 --> 01:00:05.639
<v Speaker 2>the sort of positive vision realised We've spent roughly fifteen

1052
01:00:05.639 --> 01:00:09.960
<v Speaker 2>minutes complaining about American evangelicals, which you know is a

1053
01:00:09.960 --> 01:00:12.679
<v Speaker 2>pass off of mine. That are my people. I love them,

1054
01:00:12.760 --> 01:00:15.480
<v Speaker 2>but also boys, sometimes you don't make it easy to

1055
01:00:15.519 --> 01:00:19.000
<v Speaker 2>love you. So you lay out a couple of different

1056
01:00:19.360 --> 01:00:23.719
<v Speaker 2>sort of active decisions that can be made. There. One

1057
01:00:23.760 --> 01:00:26.599
<v Speaker 2>of them you mentioned to sort of form a FAILAX FAILANX, right,

1058
01:00:26.719 --> 01:00:30.000
<v Speaker 2>get a group together. What are other ways that men

1059
01:00:30.039 --> 01:00:33.559
<v Speaker 2>who've been convinced by your thesis can solve that issue?

1060
01:00:33.840 --> 01:00:36.239
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think a big one for young Krishiaan men

1061
01:00:36.320 --> 01:00:38.119
<v Speaker 1>today is going to be figuring out what to do

1062
01:00:38.159 --> 01:00:41.800
<v Speaker 1>with their resentment and bitterness. Resentment and bitterness is almost

1063
01:00:42.039 --> 01:00:46.000
<v Speaker 1>always left coded. It's especially Marxist coded. It's rooted in covetousness.

1064
01:00:46.480 --> 01:00:50.960
<v Speaker 1>And for the audience member who's listening, I go on

1065
01:00:51.239 --> 01:00:53.679
<v Speaker 1>to great detail in the book of how I'm sympathetic

1066
01:00:53.719 --> 01:00:58.800
<v Speaker 1>with legitimate reasons you could face that temptation. Right, there's

1067
01:00:58.840 --> 01:01:02.199
<v Speaker 1>all sorts of pressures again to you. But bitterness never

1068
01:01:02.320 --> 01:01:04.639
<v Speaker 1>produces the virtue that we aspire, the glory that we

1069
01:01:04.880 --> 01:01:09.480
<v Speaker 1>aspire to achieve, and so bitterness is going to corrode

1070
01:01:09.559 --> 01:01:12.280
<v Speaker 1>your soul. It's going to eat you alive, and that resentment,

1071
01:01:12.360 --> 01:01:16.800
<v Speaker 1>that kind of boiling energy where you're looking around you know,

1072
01:01:17.599 --> 01:01:21.360
<v Speaker 1>it's it's almost never productive towards God's and said, we

1073
01:01:21.440 --> 01:01:23.920
<v Speaker 1>need to be productive, and we need to figure out

1074
01:01:23.960 --> 01:01:26.280
<v Speaker 1>how to deal with what we've got to deal with now.

1075
01:01:26.639 --> 01:01:28.480
<v Speaker 1>The other thing I get into at great length is

1076
01:01:28.519 --> 01:01:32.679
<v Speaker 1>biology and getting fit. There's a lot of talk online

1077
01:01:32.960 --> 01:01:35.840
<v Speaker 1>and other places about kind of the fitness industry, particularly

1078
01:01:36.000 --> 01:01:41.039
<v Speaker 1>in male spaces, about you know, whether it's peptides or

1079
01:01:41.119 --> 01:01:44.679
<v Speaker 1>bench press or you know, running, whatever it is. But

1080
01:01:44.760 --> 01:01:47.960
<v Speaker 1>I think a big problem in our world is not

1081
01:01:48.239 --> 01:01:51.800
<v Speaker 1>merely that people don't know the Lord, although of course,

1082
01:01:51.800 --> 01:01:54.159
<v Speaker 1>as a minister and acres a Christian, I think that

1083
01:01:54.360 --> 01:01:59.440
<v Speaker 1>is the pre imminent problem. The other problems are a

1084
01:01:59.440 --> 01:02:01.599
<v Speaker 1>lot of them are iological. So a lot of the

1085
01:02:01.639 --> 01:02:06.239
<v Speaker 1>things that we get diagnosed with today, whether it's anxiety

1086
01:02:06.360 --> 01:02:09.199
<v Speaker 1>or depression or ADHD, a lot of them we know

1087
01:02:09.320 --> 01:02:15.280
<v Speaker 1>now may simply be hormonal imbalances, dietary issues, the fact

1088
01:02:15.320 --> 01:02:19.079
<v Speaker 1>that you're seedentary, the fact that you are overweight, and

1089
01:02:19.199 --> 01:02:21.440
<v Speaker 1>a lot of your life can be improved and your

1090
01:02:21.480 --> 01:02:24.239
<v Speaker 1>agency will be improved as you, for example, get your

1091
01:02:24.280 --> 01:02:28.199
<v Speaker 1>testosterone levels improved, So if we if we have a

1092
01:02:28.280 --> 01:02:32.360
<v Speaker 1>mass decline of testosterone among men in America, and this

1093
01:02:32.480 --> 01:02:36.559
<v Speaker 1>is evangelicals are men in America evan jocalmen, you know,

1094
01:02:36.719 --> 01:02:38.320
<v Speaker 1>then it wouldn't be surprising that you're going to find

1095
01:02:38.320 --> 01:02:40.199
<v Speaker 1>low T men. You're going to find low T men

1096
01:02:40.239 --> 01:02:42.159
<v Speaker 1>in the pulpit. You're going to find men who are

1097
01:02:42.280 --> 01:02:45.880
<v Speaker 1>kind of acting more feminine and their dispositions and outlook.

1098
01:02:45.880 --> 01:02:48.639
<v Speaker 1>They're going to shape institutions, They're going to shape seminaries,

1099
01:02:48.639 --> 01:02:50.800
<v Speaker 1>they're going to shape the gospel coalition, They're going to

1100
01:02:50.840 --> 01:02:53.679
<v Speaker 1>shape you know, worship whatever it may be, and the

1101
01:02:53.679 --> 01:02:56.199
<v Speaker 1>sermons and all that. One of the key ways that

1102
01:02:56.239 --> 01:02:59.440
<v Speaker 1>I think we can recover kind of this agenic kinetic

1103
01:02:59.599 --> 01:03:05.519
<v Speaker 1>fuma for men is by getting men to not get ontoesosterone,

1104
01:03:05.559 --> 01:03:07.199
<v Speaker 1>but to at least get their T levels. Check to

1105
01:03:07.239 --> 01:03:10.679
<v Speaker 1>see if that's an issue for them, because my suspicion

1106
01:03:10.719 --> 01:03:16.639
<v Speaker 1>as it is that they need to investigate ways to

1107
01:03:16.880 --> 01:03:20.760
<v Speaker 1>just help themselves both spiritually materially to live into their

1108
01:03:20.840 --> 01:03:24.119
<v Speaker 1>nature as men. I suggest very simple remedies in the book,

1109
01:03:24.239 --> 01:03:27.280
<v Speaker 1>like doing pull up, some push ups, or having seminaries

1110
01:03:27.440 --> 01:03:30.880
<v Speaker 1>require competitive sports or something like this, just anything to

1111
01:03:30.920 --> 01:03:33.360
<v Speaker 1>get men active. We live in such a sedentary age

1112
01:03:33.800 --> 01:03:37.800
<v Speaker 1>and the Industrial Revolution has really there's many blessings that

1113
01:03:37.840 --> 01:03:40.000
<v Speaker 1>we have because of the Industrial Revolution, like being on

1114
01:03:40.000 --> 01:03:44.320
<v Speaker 1>this podcast, but it's also a lot of implications in

1115
01:03:44.360 --> 01:03:48.320
<v Speaker 1>our life where we're just very sedentary, often staring at

1116
01:03:48.320 --> 01:03:51.159
<v Speaker 1>a blue screen, and the best you can hope for

1117
01:03:51.280 --> 01:03:53.639
<v Speaker 1>is kind of the next either addictive game or show

1118
01:03:53.960 --> 01:03:56.079
<v Speaker 1>that can entertain you to sleep. And this is no

1119
01:03:56.159 --> 01:03:59.440
<v Speaker 1>way to live. This is I don't think anybody when

1120
01:03:59.480 --> 01:04:02.920
<v Speaker 1>they if they were to be authentic and sincere would admit,

1121
01:04:03.679 --> 01:04:06.480
<v Speaker 1>at least on the right, would admit like, yeah, I'm

1122
01:04:06.519 --> 01:04:10.800
<v Speaker 1>not proud of doom scrolling. I'm not. I don't like

1123
01:04:10.920 --> 01:04:14.000
<v Speaker 1>that behavior. But I also like it's a nice dopamine head.

1124
01:04:14.000 --> 01:04:15.599
<v Speaker 1>And this is also something I try to teach, like

1125
01:04:15.639 --> 01:04:19.039
<v Speaker 1>God designed dopamine, and he designed dopamine to be one

1126
01:04:19.119 --> 01:04:21.800
<v Speaker 1>attached to your wife if you're a man, and he

1127
01:04:21.840 --> 01:04:23.719
<v Speaker 1>attached it. He designed it to be attached to your

1128
01:04:23.719 --> 01:04:27.519
<v Speaker 1>productivity in life, so that your kind of chemical hardwiring

1129
01:04:27.599 --> 01:04:29.719
<v Speaker 1>is for like, as you achieve things, you kind of

1130
01:04:29.760 --> 01:04:31.880
<v Speaker 1>like you get into a flow state and you achieve

1131
01:04:31.920 --> 01:04:35.039
<v Speaker 1>more things. This is all natural, this is what God designed,

1132
01:04:35.280 --> 01:04:36.840
<v Speaker 1>but a lot of Christians just don't talk about it

1133
01:04:36.840 --> 01:04:39.320
<v Speaker 1>because they want to obsess over ideas, and they want

1134
01:04:39.320 --> 01:04:42.079
<v Speaker 1>to obsess over kind of like simp the material the

1135
01:04:42.199 --> 01:04:49.320
<v Speaker 1>spiritual concerns, which, of course, again, your soul is more important.

1136
01:04:49.440 --> 01:04:51.599
<v Speaker 1>I think I say this in the book the soul

1137
01:04:52.000 --> 01:04:55.239
<v Speaker 1>has a greater pre eminence. Why because our eternal destination.

1138
01:04:55.360 --> 01:04:58.039
<v Speaker 1>While it is embody and in soul, there will be

1139
01:04:58.079 --> 01:05:00.320
<v Speaker 1>a time where the body is separated from the soul,

1140
01:05:00.559 --> 01:05:03.239
<v Speaker 1>and so that soul persists throughout any kind of an

1141
01:05:03.239 --> 01:05:05.719
<v Speaker 1>intermediate state when it's detached from the body, when the

1142
01:05:05.719 --> 01:05:09.039
<v Speaker 1>body goes into the ground, and then it is reunited

1143
01:05:09.480 --> 01:05:13.639
<v Speaker 1>either to eternal bliss in heaven or eternal damnation and hell.

1144
01:05:14.199 --> 01:05:17.199
<v Speaker 1>And so our bodies do matter greatly. I'm not trying

1145
01:05:17.239 --> 01:05:21.559
<v Speaker 1>to diminish the importance of prayer or activities that like

1146
01:05:21.679 --> 01:05:24.639
<v Speaker 1>worship or anything like that, but we just totally ignore

1147
01:05:24.719 --> 01:05:26.960
<v Speaker 1>many times the material aspects of men. And that's one

1148
01:05:27.000 --> 01:05:28.360
<v Speaker 1>of the most I think it's one of the chief

1149
01:05:28.400 --> 01:05:31.199
<v Speaker 1>battlegrounds that we're facing today, especially in the church, is

1150
01:05:31.239 --> 01:05:33.519
<v Speaker 1>we just don't even talk about these things. We don't

1151
01:05:33.519 --> 01:05:36.360
<v Speaker 1>talk about how you dress, how you look, and we're

1152
01:05:36.360 --> 01:05:39.079
<v Speaker 1>not getting into looks maxim or anything like that. But

1153
01:05:39.119 --> 01:05:42.400
<v Speaker 1>we do want men to be shaped like men in

1154
01:05:42.440 --> 01:05:46.679
<v Speaker 1>their very body, to dress well as fitting as is

1155
01:05:46.719 --> 01:05:49.719
<v Speaker 1>fitting for men. All these things are actually really important

1156
01:05:49.840 --> 01:05:52.800
<v Speaker 1>and not dishonoring to God. It's not it's not vanity

1157
01:05:53.360 --> 01:05:55.280
<v Speaker 1>to be concerned with one the way you look, how

1158
01:05:55.320 --> 01:05:58.400
<v Speaker 1>fit you are, because that's going to shape your apprehension

1159
01:05:58.440 --> 01:05:59.039
<v Speaker 1>of the divine.

1160
01:06:00.119 --> 01:06:02.480
<v Speaker 2>That point, Chase, I think that this is a trap

1161
01:06:03.000 --> 01:06:07.960
<v Speaker 2>that a lot of to be honest, smart kids fall into.

1162
01:06:08.639 --> 01:06:11.800
<v Speaker 2>Right if you are academically inclined, if you are particularly

1163
01:06:11.840 --> 01:06:15.519
<v Speaker 2>with sort of a humanities bent, there is this idea that, oh,

1164
01:06:15.599 --> 01:06:18.239
<v Speaker 2>I'm better than that you know. I am simply a mind.

1165
01:06:18.320 --> 01:06:22.000
<v Speaker 2>I do not need to embody my physical form. I'm

1166
01:06:22.039 --> 01:06:26.159
<v Speaker 2>better than you know, those idiots. And I say this

1167
01:06:26.239 --> 01:06:30.360
<v Speaker 2>as someone who came into physicality relatively late in life.

1168
01:06:30.519 --> 01:06:34.519
<v Speaker 2>I was a fat kid. That change from one just

1169
01:06:34.599 --> 01:06:39.760
<v Speaker 2>even losing weight, but two, being physically active is impossible

1170
01:06:39.800 --> 01:06:44.880
<v Speaker 2>to overstate, even down to the confidence you display in

1171
01:06:44.960 --> 01:06:49.000
<v Speaker 2>social settings like then, we have this sort of background

1172
01:06:49.039 --> 01:06:52.639
<v Speaker 2>calculation running in any interaction, which is could I win

1173
01:06:52.679 --> 01:06:55.760
<v Speaker 2>this fight? And it's like very deep, it's like lizard

1174
01:06:55.840 --> 01:06:58.079
<v Speaker 2>brain stuff. You know, I'm not saying you should actually

1175
01:06:58.159 --> 01:07:00.079
<v Speaker 2>swing on your boss, you know, when you ask to

1176
01:07:00.159 --> 01:07:02.800
<v Speaker 2>do something at the office. I'm not saying you shouldn't

1177
01:07:02.840 --> 01:07:06.800
<v Speaker 2>do it. But in all seriousness, right, that part of

1178
01:07:06.840 --> 01:07:11.360
<v Speaker 2>you that is sort of weighing, that physicality, it's always there,

1179
01:07:11.679 --> 01:07:15.079
<v Speaker 2>can't really get rid of it, that sort of hierarchy

1180
01:07:15.159 --> 01:07:20.920
<v Speaker 2>seeking part of the male brain, that social dynamic. You

1181
01:07:20.960 --> 01:07:24.039
<v Speaker 2>were handicapping yourself. You were putting yourself in this sort

1182
01:07:24.039 --> 01:07:26.639
<v Speaker 2>of resentful state of mind. And that may sound like

1183
01:07:26.760 --> 01:07:30.440
<v Speaker 2>woo woo nonsense, it's genuinely not. I mean, look at

1184
01:07:30.960 --> 01:07:33.199
<v Speaker 2>like all the ground Jordan Peterson was able to cover

1185
01:07:33.280 --> 01:07:37.039
<v Speaker 2>with basically like clean your room, you know, wash yourself

1186
01:07:37.079 --> 01:07:39.320
<v Speaker 2>and stand up straight. And it's like, okay, well, I

1187
01:07:39.320 --> 01:07:42.760
<v Speaker 2>mean that's certainly start. It's better than nothing. But that

1188
01:07:41.480 --> 01:07:46.440
<v Speaker 2>same trend he's identifying, it's like that applies much more

1189
01:07:46.519 --> 01:07:49.880
<v Speaker 2>so to being a male shaped mail, which is a

1190
01:07:49.920 --> 01:07:51.400
<v Speaker 2>pretty low bar to clear.

1191
01:07:51.639 --> 01:07:51.800
<v Speaker 1>Right.

1192
01:07:51.960 --> 01:07:54.199
<v Speaker 2>I'm not saying you have to like blast a gram

1193
01:07:54.199 --> 01:07:58.519
<v Speaker 2>of trend or whatever, but just like, please don't do that.

1194
01:07:58.519 --> 01:08:02.039
<v Speaker 2>That would be funny, especially in this podcast Tad made

1195
01:08:02.079 --> 01:08:05.679
<v Speaker 2>I guess, but it all seriousness right, simply looking like

1196
01:08:05.760 --> 01:08:09.840
<v Speaker 2>you are, you know, roughly correctly shaped. You know, it's

1197
01:08:09.840 --> 01:08:13.599
<v Speaker 2>not like seeing your toes. And I say that laughingly,

1198
01:08:13.880 --> 01:08:16.279
<v Speaker 2>but like as someone who has been through that process,

1199
01:08:16.319 --> 01:08:23.479
<v Speaker 2>like that is just about the most unalloyed positive I

1200
01:08:23.520 --> 01:08:26.000
<v Speaker 2>can think of in my life. Like there's really no

1201
01:08:26.159 --> 01:08:28.000
<v Speaker 2>morning I wake up and I'm like, wish I was

1202
01:08:28.039 --> 01:08:30.399
<v Speaker 2>still fat anyway, sorted out to get too much into

1203
01:08:30.399 --> 01:08:32.439
<v Speaker 2>the self help stuff. Just wanted to sort of add

1204
01:08:32.439 --> 01:08:33.159
<v Speaker 2>an addition, Oh.

1205
01:08:33.119 --> 01:08:37.319
<v Speaker 1>That's that's a great topic. Because if a young man

1206
01:08:37.560 --> 01:08:42.399
<v Speaker 1>is dealing with you know, he's overweight, he feels lethargic,

1207
01:08:42.720 --> 01:08:46.680
<v Speaker 1>biologically seating donuts and pizza and soft drinks and all

1208
01:08:46.680 --> 01:08:49.079
<v Speaker 1>this kind of stuff, and he comes to a Christian

1209
01:08:49.560 --> 01:08:52.800
<v Speaker 1>leader in his church or denomination or school whatever, maybe

1210
01:08:53.239 --> 01:08:56.640
<v Speaker 1>I just feel depressed. I just feel sad. What he

1211
01:08:56.800 --> 01:09:02.039
<v Speaker 1>rarely encounters is you should lose weight. Typically en is

1212
01:09:02.239 --> 01:09:05.840
<v Speaker 1>you should pray more, you know, And these aren't opposed again,

1213
01:09:05.880 --> 01:09:07.960
<v Speaker 1>these are not opposed to one another. You should pray more,

1214
01:09:08.399 --> 01:09:10.359
<v Speaker 1>I should pray more. Everyone should pray more to the Lord,

1215
01:09:10.840 --> 01:09:14.800
<v Speaker 1>but they're not being given. And this way you go

1216
01:09:14.840 --> 01:09:17.520
<v Speaker 1>back to what you brought up earlier, the rigor kind

1217
01:09:17.520 --> 01:09:20.319
<v Speaker 1>of the basic instruction on what it looks like to

1218
01:09:20.359 --> 01:09:23.319
<v Speaker 1>follow God in this life as a man. Instead, they're

1219
01:09:23.359 --> 01:09:27.079
<v Speaker 1>given kind of platitudes and even oftentimes discouraged from focusing

1220
01:09:27.119 --> 01:09:29.479
<v Speaker 1>on the body because they've been taught that the body

1221
01:09:29.479 --> 01:09:31.319
<v Speaker 1>doesn't matter, that it's going to burn up in the end,

1222
01:09:31.680 --> 01:09:34.479
<v Speaker 1>that it's simply an empty shell. And because of gnosticism,

1223
01:09:34.479 --> 01:09:36.800
<v Speaker 1>we want to be free of this body, and we

1224
01:09:36.840 --> 01:09:40.520
<v Speaker 1>want to you know, the material is bad inherently. We

1225
01:09:40.560 --> 01:09:44.000
<v Speaker 1>read words in English like flesh and world and don't

1226
01:09:44.039 --> 01:09:46.560
<v Speaker 1>know the grief behind them and simply read those as

1227
01:09:46.640 --> 01:09:51.000
<v Speaker 1>material existence itself is corrupt and bad and not just

1228
01:09:51.079 --> 01:09:54.279
<v Speaker 1>unredeemable but a problem. And we just don't have a

1229
01:09:54.319 --> 01:09:56.560
<v Speaker 1>comprehensive view of these things, such that we don't encourage

1230
01:09:56.600 --> 01:10:00.840
<v Speaker 1>young men, especially in even chocal spaces, with basic things

1231
01:10:00.920 --> 01:10:05.279
<v Speaker 1>like hygiene, fitness, dressing well, all in the name of

1232
01:10:05.359 --> 01:10:09.319
<v Speaker 1>not offending them or being inclusive and being a nice

1233
01:10:09.359 --> 01:10:13.640
<v Speaker 1>person to them. And it seems more nice to avoid

1234
01:10:13.880 --> 01:10:16.960
<v Speaker 1>telling people, hey, like, if you're feeling this way, maybe

1235
01:10:16.960 --> 01:10:19.800
<v Speaker 1>you should lose weight. That's going to be perceived as

1236
01:10:19.800 --> 01:10:24.000
<v Speaker 1>offensive sometimes and I'm like, yeah, it will be and

1237
01:10:24.079 --> 01:10:25.960
<v Speaker 1>you don't have to be like cruel. I mean, guys

1238
01:10:26.000 --> 01:10:27.520
<v Speaker 1>like to be cruel about it. We like to joke

1239
01:10:27.920 --> 01:10:30.399
<v Speaker 1>in kind of cruel ways to each other. But like,

1240
01:10:31.439 --> 01:10:33.760
<v Speaker 1>these are just basic things that a lot of Christians ignore,

1241
01:10:33.800 --> 01:10:35.199
<v Speaker 1>which is part of the reason I wrote the book.

1242
01:10:35.640 --> 01:10:39.560
<v Speaker 2>Well, and I think everyone is probably seen to snippet

1243
01:10:39.560 --> 01:10:44.000
<v Speaker 2>from a British tabloid from ten years ago where it says,

1244
01:10:44.119 --> 01:10:46.800
<v Speaker 2>you know, man loses I don't know how to convert

1245
01:10:46.800 --> 01:10:48.920
<v Speaker 2>stone to pounds, but it's something absurd like two hundred

1246
01:10:48.920 --> 01:10:51.880
<v Speaker 2>and fifty pounds because one of his friends texted him,

1247
01:10:52.239 --> 01:10:56.399
<v Speaker 2>you're a fat expletive every morning for a year, and

1248
01:10:56.520 --> 01:10:58.600
<v Speaker 2>like that's a joke, right, Like, okay, that happened. That

1249
01:10:58.640 --> 01:11:02.960
<v Speaker 2>worked for him, but that's not exactly what happened to me,

1250
01:11:03.039 --> 01:11:06.520
<v Speaker 2>but it's pretty close. And okay, you know, as in

1251
01:11:06.560 --> 01:11:08.760
<v Speaker 2>the moment that that sort of rankled Pride one hundred percent,

1252
01:11:09.359 --> 01:11:12.800
<v Speaker 2>but also like that's sort of how we self police,

1253
01:11:13.199 --> 01:11:18.359
<v Speaker 2>and sometimes that self policing is necessary. Anyway, Chase, this

1254
01:11:18.399 --> 01:11:20.640
<v Speaker 2>has been a ton of fun. Man. I enjoyed your

1255
01:11:20.680 --> 01:11:23.119
<v Speaker 2>book quite a bit. Obviously, there's a link down in

1256
01:11:23.119 --> 01:11:25.920
<v Speaker 2>the description if you're interested in addition to the content,

1257
01:11:26.239 --> 01:11:29.640
<v Speaker 2>it's really nicely bound, which is not often the case

1258
01:11:29.800 --> 01:11:34.359
<v Speaker 2>with kind of dissident literature. So I appreciate that, you know,

1259
01:11:34.359 --> 01:11:35.600
<v Speaker 2>as someone who has quite a lot of it on

1260
01:11:35.640 --> 01:11:39.199
<v Speaker 2>their shelf. But other than I guess your your book,

1261
01:11:39.399 --> 01:11:42.479
<v Speaker 2>Offensive Christianity, your Twitter, and your substack. Is there anywhere

1262
01:11:42.520 --> 01:11:43.439
<v Speaker 2>else people can find you?

1263
01:11:44.079 --> 01:11:47.199
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, if you go to Full Proof Theology. That's my podcast.

1264
01:11:47.279 --> 01:11:51.119
<v Speaker 1>I'm also on YouTube. I interview thinkers like Curtis Jarvin

1265
01:11:51.359 --> 01:11:54.319
<v Speaker 1>oz Ginnis and others on my podcast, any kind of

1266
01:11:54.359 --> 01:11:57.479
<v Speaker 1>right wing thinker. It's very audience driven, so people will

1267
01:11:57.600 --> 01:11:59.600
<v Speaker 1>in my church out so my church will text me, hey,

1268
01:11:59.600 --> 01:12:01.359
<v Speaker 1>I read this article, you should talk to this guy,

1269
01:12:01.399 --> 01:12:03.920
<v Speaker 1>and I'm like, great, well, so feel free to send

1270
01:12:03.960 --> 01:12:06.960
<v Speaker 1>me suggestions. But yeah, Offensive Christianity Book dot com is

1271
01:12:07.000 --> 01:12:09.079
<v Speaker 1>the place to go find the book. You can follow

1272
01:12:09.079 --> 01:12:13.920
<v Speaker 1>me on Twitter at Jjsdavis substack jjsdavis dot com. Lots

1273
01:12:13.960 --> 01:12:17.039
<v Speaker 1>going on. I've also got kind of I know we're

1274
01:12:17.039 --> 01:12:19.439
<v Speaker 1>wrapping up here, but just as a brief aside, I

1275
01:12:19.479 --> 01:12:22.560
<v Speaker 1>started a cool project on the side because a lot

1276
01:12:22.560 --> 01:12:25.960
<v Speaker 1>of the stuff I'm attacking in the book is modern

1277
01:12:26.319 --> 01:12:29.760
<v Speaker 1>kind of rationalism and a lot of the literature that

1278
01:12:29.840 --> 01:12:33.399
<v Speaker 1>Christians read today is based in that scheme, that frame

1279
01:12:33.439 --> 01:12:36.199
<v Speaker 1>of mind. I started a website called Commonplace dot Study

1280
01:12:36.199 --> 01:12:38.640
<v Speaker 1>where you can read premodern sources and you can actually

1281
01:12:38.760 --> 01:12:42.239
<v Speaker 1>use kind of an AI search engine on that thing

1282
01:12:42.319 --> 01:12:44.840
<v Speaker 1>to go find sources that are better than what you're

1283
01:12:44.840 --> 01:12:47.439
<v Speaker 1>going to get at your local Christian bookstore. And if

1284
01:12:47.439 --> 01:12:49.960
<v Speaker 1>you're a pastor or scholar Christian thinker is serious about

1285
01:12:50.239 --> 01:12:54.319
<v Speaker 1>especially Protestantism, I have tons of one of resources, many

1286
01:12:54.359 --> 01:12:57.039
<v Speaker 1>of which have never been published or translated at Commonplace

1287
01:12:57.039 --> 01:12:59.960
<v Speaker 1>dot Study, So I'd highly recommend for an intellectual audio

1288
01:13:00.119 --> 01:13:02.279
<v Speaker 1>such as yours. Go check out that website.

1289
01:13:02.720 --> 01:13:04.880
<v Speaker 2>Well again, man, thanks, this was a ton of fun.

1290
01:13:05.399 --> 01:13:07.600
<v Speaker 2>Get everyone at home, keep your head up. I can't

1291
01:13:07.680 --> 01:13:07.920
<v Speaker 2>last

1292
01:13:37.560 --> 01:13:37.600
<v Speaker 1>M