Speaker 1: All right, welcome everybody. We're back with my good buddy
David Patrick Harry, who is now doctor David Patrick Harry.
Don't you dare fail to leave out that PhD. He's
got the ability to write dissertations, he can do surgeries.
He's a doctor now he can do it all. Just kidding. Congratulations,
doctor d Thanks brother.
Speaker 2: I appreciate that. You know, it's been in a long
time in the making, and I remember talking to you
back in like twenty twenty one twenty two about and
I changed my dissertation topic so I had to basically
restart after doing all the research to start on one
which is actually going to tie with today's stream because
the initially I was going to do one on the
history of psychedelic mysticism, which then got changed to transhumanism.
So finally glad to be done with that and pretty
anxious to finally get that published and have an actual
physical book to sell and go along with some of
my research and work. So I appreciate the congratulations and
thanks for having me on to it. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I caught the debate that you guys had as
your sort of panel debate with your Gnostic dude, And
I was just realizing how like it seems like gnostics
and cult leaders like they all kind of drift in
the domain of looking more and more like Manson. They
all kind of like take they do a Manson vibe
and aesthetic.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he was convince it's that, you know, the whole
Rigman role that Jesus was a mushroom, which comes out
of John Marco Allegro's book. It's like the Sacred Mushrooms.
Speaker 1: When you said that, I was going to ask you
about Allegro. But we'll get to that here in a
little bit.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, Yeah, well I'll save it from when we
get to it then.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well before we get to before we get to
all that. So, uh, you know, you've had a pretty wild,
uh exciting journey. I mean you had, you know, time
that you spent overseas. You were in China for a
long time. Did you get into a lot of like
did you study kind of Eastern Eastern philosophy during that
period in your life?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Uh, during my undergrad so I grew up kind
of like conservative Methodist, and I remember I took a
Bible course at my university during undergrad and it was
by a critical scholar who wasn't Christian, and so I
was introduced like the multiple multiple authorship theory of the
Gospels and the syncretism between the Epic of Gilgamesh and
just totally annihilated this naive methodist Christianity I grew up with.
And so I took another course on intro to world
religions and became really interested in Daoism, Buddhism specifically, but
also also Hinduism and just Eastern mysticism generally speaking. And
so I did to study abroad trips to southern China
at Sunyat, sin junk Shandashue and Guangzhou, and that was
really eye opening because Chinese culture is not the antiquated
Confucian Dallas blend that most people think. I mean, they're
very pragmatic, like capitalist oriented people, so they are not
very much interested in some of that ancient history that
I liked. But yeah, I spent two summers there and
was really interested in the Eastern mysts. At that time.
I was like getting into Alan Watts and that type
of stuff and thinking that this perennial spirituality somehow led
to like ultimate universal truth. So yeah, that was a
go ahead, No.
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I was just trying to refrain, rushed
myself on. I know you spent time over there, and
I remember you saying that when you came back, you know,
you realized, like this wasn't really the the mysticism that
I expected it to be. The Chinese people weren't really
that into it that you said. They were very pragmatic
and basically kind of a pretty much just capitalist for
the most part, I guess, but uh, how and then
you and then you kind of got more into focusing
academically on writing originally on shrooms or you said you
changed the original thesis. What did it change from?
Speaker 2: So? Uh that was during undergrad and I finished the
capstone project was on theories of magic. So I was
interested in the ways in which some of the founders
of the field of religious studies began to categor categorize
the difference between magic and religion and science. That was
a you know, uh, Frasier and Taylor and those types
of guys, those early sociologists Durkheim. And during my master's degree,
which was at the University of Illinois, I was deeply
embedded into the psychoonot psychedelic mysticism worldview, Terence McKinnon, Timothy Leary,
Robert Anton Wilson, you know, all those same characters. And
during the master's program, I worked with an early Christian
scholar and focused on really gnosticism and hermeticism during the
time of the kind of the first three hundred years
of Christianity and looking at that cultural malu And then
there was a Native American scholar doctor treat at the
University of Illinois, and with him I did a research
project on like psychedelic shamanism, and at that time I
was completely convinced of this sort of perennial, hermetic, magical,
psychedelic worldview. But that my time there, especially working with
the early Christian scholar, is that he told me one
time he spent like a whole year, year and a
half writing an article, and I was asking him about
it during office hours. He's like, yeah, I essentially write this.
There's one other scholar in Europe then they study the
exact same thing, and he spends all this time to
write articles, and essentially it's just a handful of other
academics around the world that are even engaging in that conversation.
And I realized damn that your whole career is just
doing research for like three or four other people to
actually interpret and understand. I thought, Man, I don't want
to do any historical scholarship. It seems kind of boring.
And so when I applied for the PhD program, initially
I got accepted to study people who are spiritual but
not religious and why they appropriate certain symbols. So anybody
who's familiar with the rise of the nuns inne that's
not in u n Those are people that when they
fill out a Pew Research Center like religious demographic in
the United States, they fill out the very bottom selection,
which is none of the above, and that incorporates atheists, agnostics,
but mostly people who are spiritual not religious, which is
like eighty five percent of that cohort. So the majority
of the people who are nuns people who identify as
I'm spiritual but I'm not religious. And I think it
was twenty eighteen that that non category became the and
they differentiate Protestant from Catholicism, but it became the like
thirty eight percent, like the biggest single demographic in the
Pew Research Center, And so it was a kind of
a hot topic that's why I got accepted for it.
And during that period I actually read this book right
here of the Psychedelic Gospels, which is going to come
up in our conversation. And actually doctor Jerry Brown was
on my PhD committee. So the people that were on
my PhD committee had to a you know, very different
They weren't Orthodox Christians, they had different interpretations of stuff.
But what his research did was basically show that these
frescoes that arrive really from the late nine hundreds and
into the very early thirteen hundreds depicted like this weird
mushroom relationship with Christ and people during that time really
began to argue, based on John Marco Legro and tying
all this stuff, well, look, this is evidence that Christianity
used magic mushrooms. And at that time I had a
previous YouTube channel promoting psychedelics and so I thought, oh,
that's great. Well, even as a psychoanod when I read
the book and then did a research paper on that topic,
I came to the conclusion that this really wasn't connected
with historical Christianity. I wasn't even a Christian at the time.
What it was tied to was the resurgence of a
gnostic heresy that came from the East and entered into
southern France, the Cathars, the Albagensians, and so where they
were finding a lot of this evidence, be it in
Germany and France, northern Italy and even places in Turkey.
There were always around these sort of gnostic heresies. So
I wrote a paper not arguing that it was the
historical Eucharist, but actually there were Gnostic practices, and that
led to another research paper I wrote trying to look
at gnostic sects like the Carpocrations and the Borbarites, who
were actually engaging in explicit psychedelic and deberating use for
these magical gnostic initiation purposes. So from there I thought, man,
I bet because I was familiar with at least Eastern
Orthodoxy having icons. I thought, man with all those icons,
because when you look at some of the evidence here
it is sort of iconographic if you will, Like this
is in this right here is the depiction of Adam
and Eve at the bottom of the Jesse tree in Hildesheim, Germany,
and clearly they're pulling these little white balls off and
eating them, which again was insinuated by the author and
other people have looked at it at some type of
psychedelic aminitemiscaria use. So I thought, man, I wonder if
Eastern Orthodoxy he's gonna have all this stuff. So I
took a PhD Course on the history and theology of
the Orthodox Church, and that didn't and so I was
ingratiated to Orthodoxy from that. Definitely didn't find any of
the mushrooms I found in these cathar frescoes, but became
aware of the worldview in the paradigm.
Speaker 1: I thought, wow, that let me ask you a question.
Hold on, say, let me ask your question. So, just
for my own interest in research, I remember encountering this idea,
probably probably around twenty ten eleven twelve was the first
time I heard this idea, maybe a little bit early,
maybe two thousand and seven or eight, And I think
it was like the early early phases of like the
Joe Rogan remember when Joe Rogan started out and he
was doing podcasts on his couch and and I remember
them discussing this, you know, el John Lagro's book, And
so first question is is a Legro the first one
to pause of this theory or this other book that
you're talking about and second question, are they actually looking
at frescoes that actually have mushrooms or are they interpreting
the frescoes to be mushrooms? And they and but they're
actually you said they're fresco So how much of this,
how much of is bullshit? How much of it's reels
want to try to say.
Speaker 2: Sure so John marcro Alegro's book, The Sacred Mushroom of
the Cross is first he worked on the Dead Sea Scrolls.
He was one of the scholars, and he was an
expert in Semitic languages and Samrian and stuff like that. Well,
apparently there was some type of problem he had with
some of the other scholars because they weren't presenting all
the translations and stuff they had found. So he wrote
this book arguing, based on linguistics and etymology, that Christianity
emerges from a mushroom fertility cold, that Jesus Christ was
not a historical person, that the name Jesus actually came
from a Samerian word for semen dripping mushroom, and that
this was the sort of origins, and that because of
the dogmatization of Christianity and the institutional forming of it,
that they cleansed the inebriating Eucharist and made it essentially
a sober symbol as opposed to what the or the
early Christians or some of the ancient period that they
are engaging with. So that has been totally debunked at
this point. That book is only regurgitated by the psychedelic
psychle Nott culture. There. I double checked today just looking
at like Academia, I cannot find a single linguist, a
single classicist, and these are atheist scholars, these aren't Christians
or a single religious studies scholar that that still argues
that John Marco Alegro's book has any validity to it.
Speaker 1: I did, and I knew he was actually eventually sort
of kicked out of academia because he had some other
weird theories that he tried to push beyond just the
mushroom thing. But that guy that you guys had on
the stream, he was saying, Christ is the the mushroom
is the flesh of Christ, or Christ is the flesh
of God. Is that an allegro idea?
Speaker 2: That is an allegro idea. Yeah, and that and and
and it's not I mean gnostics were doing that. So
we know for the fact that carp Create and the
Barbarites and some of these other groups they were claiming
the same thing. Now, gnosticism is kind of a dubious
term because there's totally there's so many different schools in
the ancient period, and they're competing with each other. So
the Valentinians and the o Fights or the Barbarites, these
they're not friendly per se. They're actually competing for a
sort of dominance on the Gnostic interpretation. So those things
were occurring. They were using aneebriating substances and claiming this
was like the flesh of the gods, which is actually
the title of one of McKinnon's books, The Food of
the Gods, which is getting back to psilocyphin much that.
Speaker 1: One I've read. Now, when you were showing those pictures,
were you saying those were like frescoes and reliefs that
were Catharai reliefs that had mushrooms or they're.
Speaker 2: All in the area, yeah, where the cathars were, and
so like some of the so this like this one
right here, this is the famous one in Plane Crault, France.
This is the depiction of Adam and Eve and it
clearly looks like some type of a mushroom fresco. Now,
the Plaine Krault Chapel, if you look into it, was
actually created by the Knights Hospitallers, which according to at
least my theory, is that many of these crusading groups,
including the Knights Templars, kind of rediscovered these ancient gnostic
heresies when they got to the Holy Land and they
brought them back. So this like Plane Coral Chapel was
built by the hospitalers and it has this really weird fresco. Now, no,
it's not used anymore, but this fresco you can actually
still go visit. Now, another church in France depicts like
this is the entrance of Christ, like his entry into Jerusalem,
and you can see all these guys holding what appeared
to be these red mushrooms and like once extending one
out to Christ. And then if you follow that chapel around,
you'll see here is this one is the purification of
Isaiah's lips, where it looks like God's handing out a
sort of mushroom cap. And then if you follow the
chapel around at the top, then it gets to the
towers of Jerusalem and these guys look like they're cutting
down mushrooms. And then at the very last depiction in
the chapel is the Last Supper, and of course you
see these same mushrooms then cut up and placed on
the table here. So regarding how much of it is
fake or how much of it is just pure interpretation,
and how much is their actual evidence, I would argue
for some of these churches, I mean, it's hard to
come to a different conclusion. Now, some of this other stuff,
you know, like the Great Canterbury Salter is used to
argue like the creation of plants right here is fun guy.
Now I've actually looked into that and the way that
they're presented as fun guy is actually used in different iconography,
and it's not trying to depict mushrooms. It's just a
sort of esthetic. But the Hildesheim Chapel, as I was
talking to you about this one, right here on the
front doors Bishop Bernard who was head of that parish
in Germany, hild his Heim, Germany, the metal doors going
into the church actually have anatomically correct psilocybin mushrooms of
that area in Germany. So I think some of it
is legitimate that something was going on in the historical period.
Of all this evidence, some of it I think is
dubious interpretation, claiming, oh, that's a mushroom right there, but
it's all within, you know, we can't I can't find
any evidence before like the late nine hundreds, which is
right around the time where these nostic groups. You know,
during the Byzantine period they hated gnostics and so if
you were in like say Anatolia proper, you were either
forced to recant your heresy and convert or you had
to get kicked out of the empire. And so tons
of these nostic groups actually begin to move towards Armenia,
and so you get like the tone Drachians and the Polisians,
and then from there eventually they they moved to Bulgaria,
where you get the Bogomills, and it's believed that the
Cathars are a form of the Boga mills that moved
in further into Western Europe. So the way I look
at as the historical progression is, you know, around the
Mediterranean area northern Africa ancient period, and then it moves
eastward and then eventually, through more persecution, it moves westward
and ends in south southern France, southern Germany and northern
Italy that type of area. And then during the Pope
Innocent the Third you have the beginning of the Inquisition
and the killing of the Albergensians for these heresies, and
also the leaders of the Knights Templars, which eventually then
go up to Scotland where Robert the Bruce accepts all
these Knights Templars and according to their own legends, they
are the founders of the Scottish Freemasonry, and that they
then institute these ancient gnostic rituals into Scottish Freemasonry. And
that's also echoed by Albert Pike. So that's not me
just making a theory. That's what these people actually claim.
And I have this Book of Chemically Stone, which is
by PD Newman, who is a Freemason and is claiming
the exact same thing that freemakes Newery is actually based
off these ancient gnostic and nebriating rituals.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for those that are interested in the medieval heresies,
there's a really well known scholarly text by Malcolm Lambert
that some years back I read, and I took a
whole bunch of notes on it. If you want a
full sort of three hour walk through of that. You
can find that on my channel. It's called Medieval Heresies.
And then we go through the Boggle Mails. We go
through the history of the Cathariye all the way up
to the Waldensians, and how that Gnostic trend actually ends
up influencing a lot of Protestantism. But let's rewind a
little bit, go back to the time of those many,
many Gnostic sects that we were talking about. I remember
reading some years ago Aaronaeus is against Heresies, and in
the first few hundred pages he details dozens and dozens
and dozens of varying Gnostic sects, all kind of competing,
like you noted, and he does mention several of them,
at least a few that can recall. I remember one
of them is a guy named Marcus, and Marcus had
his own cult, and he was a ritual magician, and
he was utilizing some form of consciousness altering, inebriating substance,
and Internets talks about this, and when Jamie, now we're
on a journey to Las Vegas last year, on our
own little esoteric journey to Vegas. We read on the
way there, on the way back the Cambridge Companion to
Western mysticism and esoterism. And this isn't I'm not trying
to like stump you or quiz you or anything. I
just want to get your take on something that I
had not really seen before, which kind of seems like
it would be obvious and it's right up your alley.
But the person that wrote the first chapter on the
Ancient Mysteries goes into great detail discussing the the Elusinian
mysteries and the Greek esoteric cults maybe a little bit
prior to Gnostic era, the Mythra cult, and what the
conclusion that this person came to was that most likely
in the Elusinian mysteries, and you might take you may
have a different view. I'm not sure, but that's what
I want to ask you about it. They argue. This
person argues that it's a death and resurrection journey of
the soul sort of ritual that goes on when you're
given the Kaikion, which is a hallucinogenic drink, and then
you sort of go through the demeter persephone underworld resurrection
sort of rituals. And I think there's even like a
crazy dance involved, just wanted to know if you if
you came across anything like that, or what do you
think of the kaikion.
Speaker 2: No, I actually think that there is some legitimacy to
the kekion theory. And so what you're referring to, the
book that founded this is called The Road to eleusis
unveiling the secret of the mysteries, and so our Gordon Wawson,
who will probably come up, he's famous for actually re
if you want to say, rediscovering, but at least popularizing
psilocybin mushrooms. In nineteen fifty seven he wrote an article
in Life magazine. He did this shamanistic retreat with Maria
Sabina and he wrote about it. And this was kind
of the first time, at least in the modern period
in the West where there's explicit discussion about these psychedelic mushrooms.
He sends those mushrooms then to Albert Hoffman, who is
the synthesizer of LSD in nineteen thirty eight, has his
famous bicycle day April was it nineteenth? Nineteen forty three,
where he accidentally consumes it and then rides his bicycle home.
And then Karl A. P Ruck, who's a classicist who
all of his work is trying to validate even Christianity.
His thing is trying to validate the legitimacy of psychedelic
use in all this ancient period. He uses his skills
as a classics collar to do so. So this book
argues that based on pottery that they found that the
kikkion is some type of ergot fungus. So ergot is
a fungus that grows on barley and ryegrain, and it's
common in again across Greece and where the Alasinian mysteries
took place. And as you said, it's that's where they
talk about persephones. Quest it's about persephones, death and rebirth,
going to Haitiites and coming back. It's believed that anybody
who is a who's who in the ancient period participated
in these mysteries and they were taken into some type
of enclosed almost like a theater space yah they would
consume the beverage, they would be revealed the mysteries, and
then hours later they would leave and then they would
be initiated into this ancient mystery. I actually think that
there's something legitimate about about that. And ergot in ergamine,
which is found in some of those potteries is a
precursor to LSD. So Albert Hoffman, who synthesizes the psilocybin
mushrooms from Maria sabina by way of our Gordon Wawson
and discovered LSD about twenty over twenty years previously, they
start synthesizing various forms of ergamine and come to the
conclusion that in a lab at least they could construct
an LSD like beverage through this. And so it's believed
that they don't know the exact process, but somehow they
would allow this ergot and they would mix it with
probably wine, and then some measure that we don't exactly know,
they're able to take out the toxins because there's actually
quite a few toxins in the fungus, and then you
could consume this beverage and get, you know, initiate inebriated
through this and get initiated into the mystery. So I
actually think that there's something there. Now I don't support
some of the larger conclusions that these scholars have made,
but I think it's the best explanation for what was
going on in eleusis because it was some type of beverage,
and I think that at least through some of the
chemistry that they've done, that's that's probably most likely of
what they actually well.
Speaker 1: Probably you're tripping balls. They take you sort of underneath
the temple or something, and then it's that the book
describes it as like then they bring you out. The
climax of the ritual is sort of like a light
comes on and then you see like the goddess you
see isis or something, Yeah, or persephone. But it's funny
you say that, because yeah, I just looked in the
footnote of disguised paper and first footnote is R. Gordon
Wasson Albert Hoffman, the very book that you cited at
the bottom is right, So yeah, you're absolutely right that
that's where they're pulling from. Did you a little side
note did you know or did you come across anything
pointing out that according to John Marx and his book
on the history of mk Ultra, that it was Gordon
Wasson was funded by the Macy Foundation, and then that
was kind of a original sort of m k ultraca project.
Speaker 2: There are some I've looked into the R. Gordon Watson connection.
He was clearly funded by some of the major moguls
at the time, and of course he was working for JP. Yeah,
which makes it very again, very strange that this high
level banker working for JP Morgan just so got contacted
and told to go to this place and meet this
shamanis in Mexico and then him and his wife Valentina
go and participate and then kind of make it now
known to the first time in the Western world about
these ancient psychedelic mysteries through through shamanic practices. I do
think that there's something something behind the funding, and they
traveled all over the world. I mean, his big thing
was trying to solve the Soma mystery, which is one
of the gods in the rig Veda, and Soma is
mentioned over a hundred times. It is a god that
you consume. It strengthens you, it illuminates you, it gives
you courage. Again potentially a connection even back with the
berserkers in Europe who took mushrooms because they felt like
they were strengthened, they had courage and they could go
fight in battle. But our Gordon Wawson, along with Timothy Leary,
I mean Timothy Leary also made a comment that he
was you know, you got to pick teams like the
Yankees or the or the Dodgers, and he chose the
CIA and so so there is some real interesting, potentially
nefarious connections with an mk ultra. By the way, this
is the interesting thing to your point. His article, our
Gordon Wawson's article about Maria Sabinez in nineteen fifty seven,
and we know that the mk ultra project began in
nineteen fifty six. So hmm, interesting little timeline there that
mk Ultra begins a year before our Gordon Wawson goes
to Mexico and makes all this stuff famous.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. Do we know if there are any other
if we go further back, is there any evidence of
you know, if we go back to like Babylon or Egypt,
is there evidence in those ancient cultures of something like
a consciousness altering initiation?
Speaker 2: Certainly their scholarship arguing for that. There's different different plants,
you know, cannabis, hayoma, progomenharmla iminio, mascaria, psilocybin, mushrooms, There's
all these different plants that people have speculated. I've seen
multiple scholars argue that ancient Egypt was participating in some
of these inebriating rituals. I would assume Babylon is noted.
They're occult and magical orientation and ritualistic framework for those practices.
I would absolutely imagine they were the earliest historical evidence
that we have really comes out of the Indian subcontinent,
as I said, through the rig Veda, and this whole
Soma thing, and so soma which in Persian is known
as hayoma, which hayome is also another inebriating substance. After
you know, hundreds of years pass by and Soma it
develops and in my estimation, my argument is it then
is incorporated into these Mithraic rights. And so Mithra is
not a huge he's in the rig Veda, but he's
not a huge figure. And we really don't get these
devotional cults until later. But Haoma wine drinking, like these
these inebriating wine beverages, we know that that was being
taken place during these Mythraic rituals. I've looked at evidence
from some scholars arguing that also orgiastic activity, which is
typically associated with like collective groups anebriating experiences, they participate
and this was true for the Manicheans. So we have
descriptions from China that the Manicheans went all the way
to China and they said they're constantly consuming mushrooms, they're debatrous,
filthy people, they don't shower enough, and that they participate
in these weird sexual practices. This is according to Chinese sources.
Speaker 1: So there was Chinese. There was hippies back then.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the Chinese where yeah, they're like these Manichaeans are.
Speaker 1: Filthy, Manichey and Hippi trying to get the ancient Chinese
to go to Grateful Dead concerts.
Speaker 2: Pretty much pretty much. And so there's an article that
I found, and this is the is the only scholar
that I've seen make this connection. His name's Robert Bedrosian.
He's an Armenian scholar, and he actually has a paper
where he argues that Armenia is the key to solving
the Soma mystery. And I have not seen anybody but him,
and I haven't even seen other scholars pick up this article.
But he argues that Armenia, being in that Caucus region
before it converted to Christianity, was actually the mountains in
Armenia were a fertile place for growing these amineomuscarita, these
red and white mushrooms that could be used ritualistically. He
claims that the mithraic rituals and some of the ancient mythology,
the pre Christian pagan mythology of Armenia was deeply embedded
within these psychedelic cults, these mythic these mythraic cults and rituals,
and he claims he's got evidence, and he writes about
this in his article that the Persian elite, the Zoroastrians,
were actually purchasing massive amounts of these mushrooms from Armenia
to have for these ritualistic purposes, and that you know,
some of the elites of the Zoroastrian Persian society would
could consume these in a ritualistic manner every year, and
that they were purchasing these from Armenia. And then he
claims in his article that he's found the continuation of
the preservation of these mushrooms all the way up to
towards the end of the twentieth century in Armenia. We
already just mentioned that Armenia is an interesting place because
that becomes a hotbed for some of these gnostic heresies
during the Byzantine period because the Buzinest teams weren't having it,
so you either had a converter you're getting kicked out.
And a lot of them went there. And it's that
cultural malu that then goes and infuses it within the
Bogomils in Bulgaria. So I think there's actually something really
there that Armenia is the sort of historical key that
unlocks the Soma mystery that so many people have been
trying to say what it is. Terence McKinnon believed it
was like the psilocybin mushrooms. Our Gordon Watson argued that
it was the aminy to mascaria mushroom. Others have argued
it's actually cannabis. Others argue it's pugamen harmla or hayoma.
So we really don't know what it is. But according
to Robert Bedrosian, he he claims that it is psilocybin
eminy myscari mushrooms and that when the Mithraic cult was
at its height in Armenia, that this infused their culture
and that they were actually providing these mushrooms and these
rituals for the Persian elite.
Speaker 1: Yeah, one thing, just a little bit of a shift
of focus I noticed as I read through this text
from the Cambridge Companion on all the esotery stuff, whether
it's the ancient inebriating ritual cults, or whether it's the Gnostics,
or whether it's even Greek philosophy at times. And then
if you fast forward all the way up to modern
resicrution mysteries, or if you go all the way up
into Gerjeff and Blovatsky, there was a commonality in this
book that I didn't expect, which was that the tendency
in Western Hermeticism, even the Middle Ages, with some of
the weirdos like Jacob Boem and Gertrude the Great, some
of these so called mystics in the Historyonic, crazy Roman
Catholic sphere, they end up in the same revelation, which
is that the meaning and the answer of all the
mysteries is you are your own God.
Speaker 2: Bro.
Speaker 1: And I'm not joking. That's like common throughout this book.
It wasn't something I don't think that the author's planned.
I just think that as they worked through these different traditions,
there's this underlying tendency to basically come to the revelation
that you're your own God. You determine your own reality.
Even when we get into krawl, Young Kraljung just basically
thinks as a gnostic sort of platonic figure, projecting your
subconscious is projecting your external reality. You're creating your own reality.
Is that a feature that you see as well? Did
you come across this kind of stuff and does that
maybe lead us into the transhumanist side of things?
Speaker 2: I would certainly say what you picked up on that
thread is absolutely the case. After the ancient period, I
would argue, at least from my reading of some of
the Ancients, I mean even some of these gnostic groups,
they were on a path of deification. From their perspective,
I think they would be submissive to say that they're
not God or equate themselves in nature to God. But
especially after the Renaissance, so much of everything that you
mentioned once we get Renaissance humanism and the Zohar, the
capitalistic text of Judaism that gets written in the thirteenth
century in Spain, and that's during the me A Caliphate
where they allowed the Jewish mystics, the Cabalistic mystics, the Sufis,
and then these Christian mystics to actually form what I
would argue becomes the Zohar, and that's where you get
Giovanni Piccadella Marendola and what they call Christian Kabbalah, and
it sort of re reinterprets man and his relationship to God,
and that then becomes I would say, the foundation for
the Rosicrucians vice shop in the Illuminati, eventually the speculative
freemasonry that emerges. So the worship of oneself, I think,
is tied with this sort of general tendency as we
move closer to modernity and especially post the Enlightenment. Yeah,
that's exactly. Every single psychedelic teacher or author that I've
read believes that you're on a process to realize of
your unity with collective consciousness or collective divinity, something abstract
like that. That's the case with everyone that I've come across.
So I would say that's sort of this residue of
Renaissance humanism mixing, mixing with the Hermeticism and the Cabbalism
and all these occult theories that emerge. So you got Paracelsus,
you know, he was this very famous alchemist. He's the
inventor of Laudanum, and so getting high on opium was
part of his part of his magical process. We know
Henry Cornelius Agrippa, like a lot of these major magicians.
Speaker 1: I've got up empress also that are on the shelf.
I was gonna get those out. But what would you say,
sort of the the the underlying feature of the Renaissance
era magicians in Italy and other places in Europe, and
then the rise of Rosicritianism is this focus inward towards
a man himself. Is that what you're saying.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's tied with a millinery and expectation. I
think Yakima Fiore's dispensational tripartite understanding of history. I mean
that's going to connect with actually my research on transhumanism.
But that millenarian ethos that somehow were like moving towards
collective utopia. I mean, that's what the ro Secrutions were.
And you can't fully understand that Malu without understanding the
impact of the Protestant Reformation and that these Protestants in
the North were seeking some sort of legitimacy against the
Catholic Church. And that's why I always say the sixteenth
century is like one of the most magical centuries in
European history. And it's during this period where you get
these rosicrution confessios and the Vishop and the Illuminati, John
d all these different figures, Paracelsus, Grippa, all these different
people are during the sixteenth century, and so Protestantism when
you look at somebody like Frederick the elector Palatine, he
was trying to incorporate cabalistic hermeticism and the re secrution
ethos with a form of Protestantism. I mean, this is
what is ended at the first Battle of the Thirty
Years War when he's defeated at the Battle of White Mountain.
So that whole Ethos was tied with like this Protestant Christianity,
which is less sacramental, combining with like the sacramentality of
ritualistic magic. We're going to create this brotherhood, this utopian king.
Speaker 1: Well, a lot of the early first generation Rosicrucians were Lutherans,
and they were in the spheres of the Lutheran Church.
I think Johann Andre who is believed to be one
of the compilers of the you know, Rosicrucian Manifesto or
whatever was a famous Lutheran. Other famous Lutherans were also
in that sphere. Sometimes people sort of make the assumption
that Luther's Cross, you know, the famous Luther Rose, just
happens to also be a Rosicritian, simple right. I don't
know that Luther himself was into Rosism. I think you
predated that a little bit. However, there is evidence that
Luther was influenced by the Theologia Germanica, which is another
one of these mystical texts that tends to focus on
sort of what you get in some of these medieval Latin,
Roman Catholic mystical texts is basically, the union with God
is so intense, and it's almost because of absolute divine
simplicity and other kind of weird esoteric ideas well. If
I become one with God truly, then I am God.
And so in other words, because there's no essence interdistinction,
there's an uncreated grace. They don't maintain the creator creature distinction.
Absolute divine simplicity if you don't believe in creative grace,
requires that you become the essence of God. So you
become God. And you actually see that in the chapter
in this text, for example, on Jacob Boheme and on
Gertrude Bell, both of whom tended to say that basically,
in the mystical Union, you actually become God. So they're
they're throwing out sort of you know, needed theological nuances
here and basically just sort of falling into a kind
of apotheosis, which I know you've talked a lot about
on your channel and probably in your thesis, where man
just becomes his own God, not by grace but by
his own will, knowledge, gnosis, tech, etc. All these are
different pathways to become your own God. One book, I
I'm curious if you've got a chance to look at
or ever heard about what's Michael Hoffman has a book
called a Cult Renaissance Church of Rome. Have you heard
of that?
Speaker 2: I have not.
Speaker 1: It's really good. It's right up your alley. I mean,
even though Hoffman ended up, I think he's still a
trad cat or something. But as Orthodox we would actually
pretty much agree with his critique of the Renaissance era
papacy because he's basically just arguing that as a trad cat,
he's trying to make sense of Rome and what happened,
and he basically ends up reading all the way back
into the Renaissance papacy and saying here's where things take
a noticeable change. Even though Hoffmann doesn't know a whole
lot about the first thousand years of Christianity, he's accurate,
I think in pinpointing the turn towards the esoteric in
the Medici Renaissance era papacy, which is definitely what happened,
and hence why they promoted and love they love the
idea of magic, Christian cabalah, etcetera. That was all super
popular at that time, and I think that's part of
the influence and trek of Western civilization, at least Europe
in the second millennium, the papal Europe.
Speaker 2: Right, And to your point about this the absolute divine
simplicity being a type of presuppositional framework for this form
of mysticism. It, I mean, all of this magical stuff
is tied with neoplatonism, and so this privileging of monism
is essential. And then once you incorporate inebriating substances, now
people can go from a rational articulation of neo platonic
values and monism to in a phenomenological experiential union with
like divinity or something. And I think though both those
together are a huge catalyst. I mean, Terrence McKinnon is
famous for saying, you know, psychedelics dissolved boundaries. Yeah, I
would agree with him. That's exactly what they do. That's
not necessarily a great thing for him. This is how
we dissolve the the you know, the deleterious framework of history,
so we can return back to the archaic goddess. Uh
and I we can talk about the archaic revival. I
think actually, given the trends in culture with the LGBTQ
and and the whole Skittles community and what they're doing,
it kind of does feel like we're returning back to
a pre Christian period and that you know, Marshall mccluban's
theories about the the you know, the global village and
how digital technology was going to actually take us from
the literate man back to a primitive style culture. It's like, Wow,
I think there's some validity there because it feels like
that's where we're going, is that people are becoming less literate,
more impulsive, and since becoming more iconic.
Speaker 1: To savages people on the savages.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I think all those things are working together.
Speaker 1: So here's a question. I have something I've wondered about.
I had several brad classes where we talked about Elizabethan
Renaissance era alchemy. We focus on you know, John Don,
Ben Johnson, Edmund Spencer, a lot of these you know,
Shakespearean era writers and poets, and a lot of them
were obsessed with Esotero's and a lot of people don't
know that. But what I've never really heard about. We
know about this possibility of maybe something going on in
terms of the Renaissance Middle Ages era with Templars and
Pico della Mirandola and these characters, and maybe they experienced
something to do with shrooms and drugs. Is there any
evidence after this period? We don't hear about drugs or
substances for so many centuries until more recently. So I'm
just curious, like, do we have evidence of like experimentation
in British Empire. I mean, we know about opium being
you know, used as war against you know, China, and
British Empire uses opium war to syops and whatnot. What
about are any of these is Elzabethan poets experimenting? You know?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so what during the Elizabethian era, Opium was certainly
one that was going around and potentially cannabis and hashish.
We know for a fact, multiple scholars have documented that
hashish used for quote unquote mystical purposes was already present
in Spain by the thirteenth century, by the time the
Zohar was written, and that all these practices, all these
practices actually moved from Syria, Egypt, across northern Africa and
then entered into Spain. So we know for a fact
that before the re conquista of Spain people were using
hashish and ritualistic practices due to Islamic Sufis. Actually either
is this.
Speaker 1: From the Hashimites, the Hashashen the assassins.
Speaker 2: It's tied with that, and obviously it's people question whether
the Nazari Ismaili's were they really high on hashish when
they committed these assassinations. It's a debated topic. But what
is a fact is that cultural that the culture Malu
that the Hashashins come from were actually using these practices,
and that you can literally trace the Sufi use of
hashish and then certain communities actually saying okay, no more
of that, and then it just continues to move eventually
across northern Africa, where in Morocco we have cases in
the twelfth century where we people go and are saying, yeah,
the Muslims are literally consuming hashish before they enter in
the mosque and getting high and then going to the
mosque for various ceremonies. When the rika Quista happens, they
try to stamp all this hashishi use out, but be
it with geodonno Bruno, for example, it speculated that he
was actually high on hashish when he came up with
his the belief that all the stars were actually sons.
And so by the time that in France in particular
was very infatuated with the Oriental and so by the
time the English, I forget the englishman's name that wrote
One thousand and one Nights, but by the time that
was written, and especially into the Victorian era, people were
absolutely experimenting with cannabis and hishish and it was very popular,
specifically in France, and that's where you get people, you know,
poets and stuff in the English period going down to Paris.
Speaker 1: I like some of the Irish and you know, famous
British poets were you know taken opium and stuff like that.
But that was the only thing I really ever.
Speaker 2: Heard, and it came from this belief that from again,
the book the One thousand and one Nights was actually
incredibly influential in Europe for the normalization and consumption of
Haiesh in the belief that it actually elevated you to
these ancient spiritual beliefs and truth to some sort. And
that's what people, famous poets were actually traveling to France
during that period to engage in these pract these practices
believing that the Oriental was able to preserve something that
Christianity tried to stomp out. Again, we just talked about
the Rican Quista, and they were not in favor of
these practices. So by the time just before the Victorian era,
they were like, oh, well, now we have these practices back,
just like the Orientals had, and now we're not tainted
by you know, the Catholic Church can't control everything we
do anymore. And so then you start getting into the
eighteen hundreds and the experimentation with nitrous oxide and anesthetics
becomes a huge thing for people to engage for mystical
spiritual purposes. I mean, this is you know, by the
time of William James. So this is late eighteen hundreds,
early nineteen hundreds William James. That's his first experiment. So
the whole book on his belief on definition of religion,
it has to do with his nitrous oxide experiences and
arguing that the getting inebriated actually again for them, allows
you to bypass the rational mind so that you can
then engage or interact with the sort of spiritual I
guess you could say super rational or irrational entities. So
you can literally trace even though our Gordon Wawson in
nineteen fifty seven really makes psilocybin mushrooms come onto the
stage for the first time, all before that Western Europe
was engaging in opium use, laudanum, drinking various form of anesthetics,
nitrous oxide and then hashish. So those things were absolutely
being used from the Renaissance forward. You can find evidence
of that throughout Western Europe.
Speaker 1: And of course, you know, we know that Afghanistan is
a region cashmere region, very important going back to ancient
times for poppies for opium, so that and that's an
ancient thing too, And there's a whole there's a whole
book on this called a visible Empire. That's really good
from Golden Fitztrail, where you know they kind of theorized
that for a long time, empires and kingdoms have sought
to really try to control that region, not just because
it's the gateway to Eurasia, but also because of this
you know magical poppy that grows there that you know
can be used for these for these rituals and whatnot.
We got we're gonna super push ahead.
Speaker 2: Push comes from from that Central Asian area where all
that stuff grows, and it's believed by scholars that's actually
how the Indians got it. So you know, spoking ganja
in the Indian context, like that whole tradition comes from
their proximity too to cat Cush in that Central Asian area.
And then they've incorporated into their Hindu practice, so now
you can find various practices and spiritual men that that's
literally all that they do is they get high and
then do these meditations or perform yoga all day. So, yeah,
that region is incredibly important in regards to opium and
marijuana or cannabis used. That's where that stuff really comes from.
Speaker 1: Jarhead Orthodox ten dollars says this is a great topic.
Can people like Joe Rogan and his guests stop trying
to convince everybody the early Christians were on shrooms and
then icons are all shrooms because there's a cow in
the icon. Yeah, it's kind of funny. I didn't even
realize until that guy was on with you guys that
I heard the cows somehow. Oh, because cow's poop, that
that means that there's That was the dumbest argument I've
ever heard. But I mean, that is that just a
I mean, are they just like making up stuff? Like
where does this idea that because there's a cow it
means I mean, are there even hallucinogenic mushrooms that grow
in the Middle East? Maybe they are, And I just
don't know, but it seems like a climate maybe that
wouldn't foster this. I don't know.
Speaker 2: I I mean, I'm not sure I would. I wouldn't
be surprised, given again, my understanding of Hinduism. If you know,
some people think it's an astrological thing of why they
don't eat.
Speaker 1: Not Hinduism. I'm talking about the the like Middle East, Israel, Palestine,
like that region that area is is there a growth
of a mushroom or hallucinogenic. I mean, I know there's
not a pot.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they don't have payout. I am not sure. I
know they have like the Acacia bush. Like, that's the
argument from actually Rick Strassman. He's the he's the the
d MT researcher that really was behind the Spirit Molecule
documentary of Joe Rogan. It's all based on this book.
And in this book they put them on IV drips
of d MT. And in this book he claims that
the Acacia bush has d MT and if you could
distill it in the proper way, that these people could
be inebriated. He makes the argument which I've never ever
seen another scholar actually try to validate that the burning bush,
what he calls the myth of the burning bush with Moses,
was actually in Acacia bush and that he was getting
high on d MT in front of that burning bush.
And that's where this whole thing comes from.
Speaker 1: Okay, So I was gonna say, I mean, the rest
of these things, it seems like they have to be imported.
You know, maybe they were. I remember some druggy Gnosticish
person at one time trying to argue that, you know,
when the Israelites are in the desert and they wake
up and the the mana is there. Oh, the mana
must be you know, shrooms or something. And I'm like,
I'm pretty sure that there wouldn't be mushrooms in the desert.
That doesn't seem like a thing that would grow in
the desert.
Speaker 2: Yeah, in the desert, I doubt there's I Again, according
to some of the these guys find the most minuscule
amounts of anything that's psychoactive and then and then create
a theory of how this could be ritualistically used in
some manner in regards to psilocybin, Obviously it grows out
of cow dung, so I could see potentially. But again
with the Alasinian mysteries, that's in the Mediterranean, and that
just has to do with a fungus. And so if
the Alasinian mystery in the Kokon is some sort of
ergoamine fungus, well maybe there's something going on around that
period or those areas. I wouldn't be surprised. But I
do not know of any specific psychoactive substance that is
indicative or exclusive to that region.
Speaker 1: What about this has kind of changed the focus a
little bit because of something that pops in my head.
A lot is a lot of the Russo Finnish Nordic
stories and tales have this sort of father mushroom father.
It's not Father Christmas, but he's like, I don't know,
like ice Claus, like snow Claus version of Santa. There's actually,
I forget the Russian name for like father snow time
whatever he is. But there's like an older pagan version
of like you know what I'm talking about, Like yeah,
and then sometimes in the Russo Finish sort of pagan traditions,
this is linked to mushrooms at times.
Speaker 2: Have you heard this, yeah, the uh it's kind of
it's kind of like the John Marco Legro where this
is it's blown out of proportion where people argue that
Christian Christmas is rooted within this pagan amitito muscaria mushroom ritual.
But at least from what we actually do know regarding
that argument is that these these Eskimo people that lived
closer towards the North Pole and the Siberia, that they
do practice a form of shamanism, and that they do
ingest amity and muscaria mushrooms, and that they do pluck
these things and that they drink the urine of reindeer
because it filters. So the amity muscary mushroom is actually toxic,
has muskemol in it, and so you have to let
it sit and dry for an extensive period of time
before it can be consumed or you'll get really sick.
This's why they say it's a toxic mushroom. You can
kill you. Well, if you just eat it when it's wet,
it can kill you. And so they have to let
this thing dry or another mechanism is allow the reindeers,
which we do know that reindeers do eat this particular mushroom,
and then you drink their urine, which we know that
they did. And so there's an argument that the mythology
of Santa Claus flying around on a sleigh behind reindeer
dressed in red and white is tied with this sort
of ritualistic use of the aminimscaria mushroom. They claim that
the reasons we put presents under the Christmas tree is
because these mushrooms grow under coniferous trees, and that they're
like the gifts that the gods have given the people.
And then they take the presence and they set them
on the tree so that they can dry in the sun,
and that the reindeers consume them, and because the reindeers
can get high along with the people, that they fly
the world together, and that Santa Claus is like shaman
Clause or something like that. Certainly those practices do exist.
But once you then try to say that's the origin
of Christmas, like, that's just an an achronistic ahistorical argument.
It just doesn't hold up to then then argue, which
they do, is that the entirety of Christian Christmas is
a solar ritual that's tied with these pagan practices that
is reincorporated into the birth of God, which is really
due to the death and rebirth of the people that
ate the Aminymuscary mushrooms. So regards to the grand narrative,
there's no historical evidence for that. In regards to the
specific use of the Siberian Eskimo native peoples, yes, but
then to take what those people did and then say,
look at Christmas, it's all that. No, that's not a
strong argument at all.
Speaker 1: What I was trying to remember the name I couldn't
think of is he's called dead Moreause, and that's that's
the Russian pagan name for Father Frost or Grandfather Frost.
And if you look at him, it's funny because he
looks kind of like the way he's drawn and the
way they make him up, he kind of looks like
a pagan version of like Bishop Nicholas. He's like, he's
an interesting character, but it reminds me too of there's
a really funny kind of classic episode of Mystery Science
Theater called Jack Frost and then riff tracks the more
recent instantiation. They redid the old Mystery Science Theater version.
It's a nineteen sixty four movie that they kind of
riff on and make fun of. It's really right up
this alley because they basically take a bunch of the
Russo Finnish pagan myths and tales and they put it
into this really weird, trippy movie with Father Frost and
with Father Mushroom, all these weird sort of pagan characters.
Everybody should watch it because it ties in perfectly what
we're talking about. I'm gonna put in the checks. I
actually found it on YouTube, but every time we talk
about this, I think of Father Frost, and it makes
me think of this movie because in the movie, before
Father Frost arrives, you have to have this encounter with
with Father Mushroom, who's this little weird, sort of trippy
dude out in the He's a little trickster deity who
exists as a gnome in the forest. And this is
again a combination of a bunch of the mythology from
that region. But Thomas trezier Be can remember what's up? Man.
Guys want to support the stream, you can do so
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Speaker 2: Doctor, I appreciate you have me on. You don't need
to what's that You don't need to split it, man,
Just I appreciate you having me on.
Speaker 1: Well, you guys, if you want to also, I've got
in the in the show description. We'll begin into this
here in a second, but doctor Patrick Garry has also
set up Logos Academy, so I'll go ahead and give
you guys that link right there. It's also in the
show description. And this is going to be kind of
his sort of private tutoring approach to what the way
he's going to do education. I think this is the
future of education. As you guys know, I offer a
course on philosophy through Richard Grosse's outlet as well autonomy
or a marketplace. That's in the show description too. You
can get my philosophy course. We'll talk about that in
a minute. But a Panini says for five pounds, ritual
abuse and mind control The Manipulation of Attachment is a
book by ort Epstein, Joseph Schwartz, and Rachel Schwartz. Okay,
we'll have to check out that book. This kind of Actually,
I think this is the book that Jamie, my wife has,
I think she has that book. Me and Eugene five dollars.
Let's go fellas. Rachel Wilson sends twenty bucks. Thank you
so much. Rachel Wilson, appreciate that. She says, Number one,
c K, what's up to one of our growing black
audience members, as you guys know, identify as a black man,
and that's bringing more and more.
Speaker 2: You're huge in that community.
Speaker 1: I am growing. I'm gonna be like the I'm gonna
be basically the next Tyler Perry when I do some
stand up for the black people in the black community.
Thank you, c K appreciate that Harvest five dollars. Somehow
I came across this channel in the last week or two.
I'm still trying to figure out what it is, but
I'm here. Well, we do all kinds of stuff, so
that might be what's throwing you for a loop. So
sometimes I do comedic streams. Sometimes I do very focused
geopolitical streams. Sometimes we do interviews, like with the great
doctor David Patrick Harry. Sometimes we just you know, joke around.
It's all over the place. We do it all here.
But thank you for being with us Harvest chairs for
twenty sex, which is some shitty currency that ends up
being about thirty cents, But thank you for that. Dph
are you let me preface this with I don't know
if he is, but I am familiar. Of course, we
had a bad interaction with this individual some years back,
and I think this person has ended up in Mormonism.
But Kotail, are you familiar with Jan Irvin and gnostic
media claims? And he was one of the characters that
was on those early Joe Rogan podcasts when Joe was
first talking about alegro and all.
Speaker 2: That I am familiar with. Jan I've never interacted or
engaged with him. From my understanding, he was big into
the psychedelic stuff, and then he was like big into
calling out the intelligence agencies behind mckinna and Leary. And
then last I was aware he like changed all of
his stuff to like logos media and was Christian.
Speaker 1: He's Mormon.
Speaker 2: He's Mormon now, okay, so yeah, I really don't follow
that guy. He was. He actually wrote a book that's
mentioned in this one, The Psychedelic Gospels, where he tried
to argue for this eucharistic mushroom theory within Christianity. So unfortunately,
his book for him, unfortunately was never touted in no
academic actually used it or cited. Even Jerry Brown says
that the research and it's very dubious, and that is
him literally interpreting anything that he could pull in regards
to mushroom or psychedelics, trying to argue that this is
the origin of Christianity.
Speaker 1: Hush Tone says, for five dollars, we all know that
you're honorary black because you always show up later than
your life. Trams are set for well The explanation for
that is that Jay Dier time just also happened to
coincide with Black people time, and so we actually linked
up on being late, and we decided that we're all
one people. Bro jet for five bucks, we need David
Patrick carry on Sam Tripoli's tenfoil hat. That would be
an interesting conversation. I know Sam likes to go out
there in the weeds in terms of the psychedelic speculations,
So maybe I don't know if Cotel would you be
interesting going on some of the comedian streams. Yeah, absolutely,
help me to suggest.
Speaker 2: Yeah, please, Okay, I'll.
Speaker 1: See if Tripley is interested. Seamus twenty dollars says, have
you ever thought about consulting for Orthodox or Roman Catholics
on the issue related to converting pagans and occultis? Both
churches have seen their exorcism ministries grow, and they say
that the growth of occultism is an issue. I'll answer
this and then I'll let Cotail answer. I don't really
know that the priests need consultation from myself. I wouldn't
call myself an expert on the occult. I've read a
lot about the occult, written some books on it in
terms of Hollywood and symbolism. But I don't really think
typically for catechisis anything like that's really necessary. Maybe just
more so, perhaps awareness that occult traditions are growing and
becoming more popular. We probably will need more and more
exorcisms as time goes by. But in the Orthodox Church,
exorcisms are typically just part of baptism. They're not. It's
not like this special ritual like in the Roman Catholic world,
the Latin rite of exorcism and all this kind of stuff.
It's a little more hollywoodized. Cotel, what do you think
about consulting Roman Catholics on occultism.
Speaker 2: I think that's a dubious idea. And really, for catechisis
the only thing that an Orthodox priest needs to make
aware of to a Catechuman is that occultism and the
effectiveness of actual occult rituals is real. And I get
people that are Catechumans and they ask me that quite well,
what do you think about magic? And it's like, well,
our paradigm said that this stuff is actually real. You
don't need to learn about it. And especially I wouldn't
recommend anybody until you're brought into the church and really
understand and gain a fronom of Orthodoxy, because I've talked
with a handful of guys that had like one foot
still in this occult match spiritual world and then one
foot in the Orthodoxy, and Orthodoxy for them is very
like a rational argumentation. And then I talk with them
and lo and behold. You know, six months goes by
and the asceticism and the spirituality of Orthodoxy isn't as
appealing as being able to still take drugs and do
all this other stuff. So I think for anybody getting
in the church, just focus on Orthodoxy and once you're in,
if you want to, then go back and look at
the history of this stuff. Feel free.
Speaker 1: John of San Francisco since twenty five dollars says, thank
you for this all this help. You've helped me learn
a lot and sent me kept me sane at my work.
God bless Yeah, a lot of people listen at work,
and I'm glad that it helps keep you guys sane.
That's good to know. Ellie's W's became a member for
three months. Welcome Ellie. Guys. Be sure and check the
member section over here, and of course also have the
member section at the website, it's largely the same material,
but of course I haven't been able to move everything
from the website over here on YouTube because we've only
been remonetized for a few months now on YouTube. But
anything new, of course goes into the members section on
YouTube as well. And yes, overall it is pretty much
the same material, but the full archive is available at
the website. Feels for days five pounds, we evolve from monkeys.
They was eating magic poopoo peepe mushrooms. Also, Father Frost
is a Communist version of Santa I think Father Frost
is way pre communism. He's an older pagan version. But
perhaps the Soviets did utilize Father Frost as some sort
of way to kind of war against the Saint Nicholas
or something in the church. But communists, interestingly, they tended
to socialists, and communists have tended, at least in the
terms of the party, to be anti drugs. Isn't that
what you find to be the case?
Speaker 2: Yeah, hardcore communists tend to be kind of anti drugs
because that could give you some pernicious ideas that are
anti communists. They can't control that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it seems like, you know, I'm pretty
sure the Soviet Party didn't want, you know, drugs going
on on a larger scale, but maybe early Bolsheviks were
super party oriented, and then you know, I don't know.
I don't know the whole history of exactly how they
viewed drugs, but I would think that my guess would
be there.
Speaker 2: I think alcohol, alcohol was definitely warmly welcome, but I
don't know if any at least me personally. I don't
know of anything regarding inebriate substances and communism. Typically, from
my understanding, the Bolsheviks were not interested in allowing people
to get anebriated. You could drink as much alcohol as
you want, they didn't care about that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Dance Commodore two hundred and fifty rons. I love
David Patrick carry Also, thank you for your comedy Jay
the only place where I laugh and get educated at
the same time.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think that's kind of what we've always wanted to do, was,
you know, synthesize both of those both of those things.
Have it be edutainment infotainment, and have it be you know,
funny and fun at the same time. Let's see, we've
got some more super chats. Cholo Mechicano ten dollars. When
are we gonna slaughter some of those sacred cows and
make hamburgers? Yeah, I mean I've always wondered. I can't
prove this, but I've always wondered if India's worship of
the cow was somehow related to like the ancient you know,
you know an erin when Moses goes up on the
mountain and they're worshiping the calf the god of Egypt,
Like maybe Egypt bequeathed this you know, deity in some
some way to India. Maybe India was reverencing the deity
earlier and it somehow got into Egypt. Do you know
much about that? Any theories on that?
Speaker 2: Uh No, there, I mean the theories regarding the veneration
of the calf. Some believe it has to do with
an after the zodiac, that these practices originated in that
it may have been a veneration of was it aries
which one's the ball no Taurus during some like the
Taurus period. Again, this is kind of in the wheelhouse
of the Graham Hancock like looking at the maderial time
and the zodiacs and trying to figure out mythology and stuff.
Like that. Some people argue that's where this stuff comes from.
Others have argued, like the gnostic guy that was on
my open panel, that this has to do with psilocybin, mushrooms,
with cow dung. Potentially, it's kind of an unsolved mystery
as what is the actual reason why cows are so
highly venerated within Hinduism Because at least historically, at least
like in the rig Veda period, that wasn't the case.
Speaker 1: Let's see, we got jets and five bucks and says, no,
we wade those. Excuse me, bust down, Jubilee. Okay, Joe
one dollar. Let's give doctor Dph some flowers. How much
do you guys love and watch dph? Jay? I watched
pretty much. I would say ninety percent of dph's streams
I end up watching. Let's see John Jason Cassell. Wow,
he sends a hundred bucks. Thanks man. I appreciate that.
He says, hello, gentlemen, I'm a new Orthodox, But I
am wrong? Am I wrong to assume that people that
claim to have spiritual awakenings and finding God are suffering
from pre list? Well, we don't know. I think time
usually tells you know whether that person was having a
real experience. I think it's possible that even a bad
drug trip could spur a person on to go to
church or to seek God. I mean, that's possible. I
just think that time is the ultimate sort of determiner,
because if a person isn't really serious or interested in it,
and they have some sort of ecstatic drug experience, that
tends to fade and then people move on to other things.
But will ask doctor David Patrick Carrey, to what degree
in your life did hallucin engens indirectly maybe point you
in the direction of Christianity in God, or maybe it didn't,
And do you think these things can potentially be ways
where people accidentally wake up to real Christianity or something.
Speaker 2: So Obviously, because of my background, I've dealt with a
lot of Orthodox converts that come from the sort of
psychoonot area, and there are a handful of cases in
which people had some type of mystical encounter that changed
their direction and orientation. I had something similar. I would
never say that taking psychedelics like brings you closer to God,
because I also had a lot of weird things that
I thought were going to come true that never did.
I mean Terence McKinnon his time wave zero theory. He
thought that like time machines were going to be invented,
or the apocalypse of some sort of the end of
history was in the year two thousand and I think
this is consistent with like these weird fabrications you get
when you go into altered psychoanatic space and then you're
totally convinced because of the phenomenological experience that something is
getting ready to occur, and then it never does. For
me personally, it was actually after I did that PhD
course on Orthodoxy, history and theology, and I began watching
some Josiah Trenham videos that summer, and Jay actually told
you that it was the first video I watched of yours.
Now I'm blanking on the title, but it was on
logos and theories of numbers or something of that. I
forget exactly what the title was, but I clicked on
your video and you were talking about sort of the
paradigm and really doing a kind of presuppositional approach to
philosophy and theology. And I was still psychedelic, but I
really liked this paradigm of Orthodoxy. But again, I'm a
non believer. I'm not interested in joining a man made institution,
and that just kind of wore on me. Towards that
last semester that I took, I did a high dose
LS the trip in my apartment in Berkeley, California, and
at the end of it, I had this quote unquote
epiphany that all these things I liked about psychedelic spirituality
or the New Age, be it fractal mathematics, sacred geometry, psymatics,
the unity of peoples, that actually all this stuff is
reinterpreted and properly expressed within Christianity regarding logos metaphysics, and
that's where your video on numbers like actually influenced this
realization later. But loving your neighbor as yourself as opposed
that we're all one, like this sylopsism of psychedelics is
properly interpreted. Is that, no, you love your neighbor as yourself,
but actually you're just think peoples. And so I had
this quote unquote epiphany. And it was that night in
twenty eighteen that I began to pray for the first
time since again that I lost my naive Methodist faith.
And then I was convinced that I was John Cyril
for those who don't know. He's a famous analytic philosopher,
arguably the most famous still living. And he was fired
from Berkeley, California when I was there, and I and
as as he was fired. That next semester, I did
a chorus on person in Neuroscience where he presented his
Chinese room thought experiment, which kind of debunks the functionalist
definition of AI Syndian intelligence and stuff like that. But
he talked a little bit about being fired and how
he again he asked like some woman who was like
almost fifty years old out to dinner and he was
in his seventies, and yeah, he's probably the biggest, one
of the biggest figures at Berkeley. Well they fired him
for that, for sexual harassment. And so I'm sitting there
in Berkeley with him also being an instructor now at
the Dominican School because he can't teach at Berkeley.
Speaker 1: You're also a straight white male who's going to get
fired for as you know exactly. I mean, that's what
they do. Like I think, I mean, you know this,
but like when I decided that I didn't want to
be in academia, I wanted to get a PhD. And
all that you know, I was in grad school, and
I was like, okay, I realize it's very much a click.
And you know, these feminists, these radical liberals, like they
don't want anyone like us in the in that sphere.
Speaker 2: No, no, and I and that was very palpable being
in the Bay Area. And so after that experience, I decided,
holy shit, I got to do something because I cannot
depend on working for a university. And that's actually what
eventually led to me creating Church of the Eternal Logos
Is I thought. And I had this pro psychedelic channel,
but my whole again as that journey from Orthodoxy and
then you and Josiah, Father Josiah, and then eventually now
in my heart feeling like Christianity is the truth. I
didn't want to keep making all that content promoting Terrence
McKinnon and Timothy Leary. So I thought, man, the only
option for me is to create a new YouTube channel.
And so I my my mom got diagnosed with an
illness at that time, and I was kind of going
through a crisis. I needed to decide if I was
going to stay in Berkeley to finish my dissertation and
use their resources or just do it remotely, and so
I went. The last time I took quote unquote psychedelics,
I did an ayahuasca ceremony and Joshua tree. And this
is before becoming Orthodox. But during this whole transitional phase
and during that experience, I had done a lot of psychedelics,
but I never had the experience I had during this
ayahuasca ceremony, where I consumed the eyewasking why who's done
these things? Again, don't do it. I'm not advising any
of this stuff. I'm just sharing you what my journey
and my experience was consumed it. I got people around
me at this ceremony, this female shaman, the shaman is is,
She's singing songs and doing her ekeros and all this stuff.
I got people crawling around the floor acting like jaguars,
and I'm not feeling anything. So I asked for another cup,
and I asked for another cup. I do three cups
of ayahuasca. The trip comes on, and the realization I
had was if we're going to be judged, which almost
every religious mythology has some type of judgment after death,
well it only makes sense of God took on human form,
and so I became fully convinced in my heart that
Jesus Christ was a historical person and it was God incarnate.
And then the second realization was, if I want to
be like Christ, it's time for me to build something
and stop consuming consuming drugs, consuming the ideas of McKenna,
consuming culture. And I felt compelled to create Church with
Eternal Logos. So that was in July of two thousand nineteen,
and then in August of twenty nineteen, I launched Church
of Eternal Logos, and in September twenty nineteen, I move
home from Berkeley and try to begin finishing all my
PhD stuff while starting the new YouTube channel where I'm
no longer doing what I'm doing. I'm producing my own
content and I'm trying to present it from the lens
of Orthodoxy. And so once I moved back to Indiana
in September twenty nineteen, that's when I got became a
catechumen in the Orthodox Church and never done that since.
So did psychedelics lead me to Christ? Not really? If anything,
I almost felt convicted when I got into those spaces
the last two times I did it, one reaffirming Christianity
is actually fulfilling the things that I believe to be true.
And then the second one, it was time for me
to start my own business and actually become a man.
And if Christ was you know, if he built things,
if he was a carpenter, it was time for me
to begin to build something. And the iron the irony
of that experience is that the ayahuasca stopped and this,
you know, and people said, oh, that's because you were
doing too much drugs. Man, your serotonin levels were no
we this had been a long long period before I'd
done psychedelics before this. I'm very aware of how all
that stuff worked. We even did like the spiritual fasting
before the ceremony, but it shut down like there was
no trip at all. I was completely sober. The shaman
was surprised. She couldn't believe it because I was telling her, look,
I'm not feeling it anymore, and she's like, you just
had three cups, like I can't. I'm not going to
give you any more. And then there's a second night.
There's in the second night, it just didn't work. And
so to me that was God telling me, look, you
got to stop doing this stuff. And to me, it
was almost like a mystical experience in the sense that
the drugs didn't work, because that had never ever happened before.
So did Christ meet me in that state? Potentially? I
think he can meet people anywhere. Do psychedelics take you
towards Christ? Absolutely not.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would say it reminds me of you know,
you and I both have been on your Mate Tooms's
channel and podcasts, and you know, we did some pretty
in depth interviews with him, and you know, there was
a period where he was really interested in Orthodoxy and
Christianity and it was because he says he had had
this really dark sort of demonic trip and he was
seeing you know, demonic entities and stuff like that, and
you know, and then he ended up for whatever reason.
I'm not knocking the dude, it's just you know, he
ended up just not continuing in the direction of Christianity.
So you know, even when you have these sort of
bad trips or intense experiences and you think you're seeing
spiritual realities or you're experiencing demons, I'm not saying or not.
I'm just saying, like, these trips kind of I would
take them with a grain of salt, as I guess
what I'm trying to say in terms of drug trips.
I've had bad trips. My first trip was a really
bad trip. It didn't immediately make me, you know, go
to church or seek out Christianity maybe a year or
two later because of a bad trip and sort of
I guess I would say in my situation, it did
kind of wake me up to spiritual realities, but I
wasn't moving the direction of Christianity after it. Maybe it
did make me start asking some questions that I maybe
wouldn't have asked before doing LSD, but I definitely wouldn't
attribute conversion to drugs. Panos, what's up? Panosis? For five dollars?
Congratulations on the PhD. Cotel, you guys should consider a
collaboration with doctor Nathan Jacobs. Know he's buddies with FDA.
I'm just not yet. I haven't met him, we haven't spoken.
I'm sure he's a cool dude. I think the conversations
that you guys would have would be beefy. What are
your recommendations for people outside of academia in terms of
something to look into to say, sharp informed and constantly learning.
I'm sure Kotel would recommend his course which is linked
Logos Academy, which is linked in the show description. Why
don't you go ahead and tell us a little bit
about that, because I do want to get back into
some more of the topics. I want to talk about
Esslin Institute. You know, you've recommended a lot of books
over the years, uh, and one of those that I
got was this history of Esselin that you recommended. Most
of the books that you mentioned on these topics, I
do end up buying this one. Maybe is not for
people trying to stay up on top of things. Just
just a book that I that I heard you mentioned
that I wanted to get, but.
Speaker 2: I would argue it's the it's the bet now. It's
written by doctor Jeffrey Kripele who runs a gnostic Esoteria
mystical institute out of Rice. It's kind of one of
the only programs in the US like it. There's a
few in Europe where you can get like a PhD.
And Eric Davis, who's a famous author. He was like
the last one to interview Terence McKenna. He just got
a PhD from Rice under doctor Kreipel. Jeffrey Kriipel was
asked by Michael Murphy, the founder of the Esslin Institute,
to write the sort of ultimate historical overview. And so
if you're an academic like Jay or myself, it's a
useful book. Not that you agree with like how the
author is presenting it, but it's really useful in seeing
the historical trajectory and narrative of that institute.
Speaker 1: Are you going to take your thesis and put it
into something readable or like, what's what is there a book?
Maybe there was a different book that you would recommend
that's like the best overview of like hallucinogens and spirituality
and what do you think?
Speaker 2: I have not found a great overview of Most of
the work that gets into psychedelics is almost always written
by somebody who so it's very biased most of the stuff,
and even amongst the scholars, because in academia most people
don't engage with this stuff unless they're like closely associated
with the practices of it. Almost every PhD that's involved
with psychedelic studies is themselves a psychoonot. So my plan
is to eventually write some type of book, be it
about one hundred and fifty to one hundred pages, it's
for an average reader on a literal historical overview of
these substances and their relationship to mysticism and how it
then emerges in the twentieth century and kind of take
you up to the twenty first century. It's really just
a historical overview. I do plan on doing that. I
have a paper titled Technologies of Transcendence that I wrote
during the PhD program that I want to rework and
expand on for that, and it's basically arguing that drugs
are form of technology for mystical transcendence. I'm not arguing
in favor of them. I'm just and then I just
document from the ancient period. The paper only goes up
to Alistair Crowley, but adding a whole another chapter, a
whole couple sections on the twentieth century. Yeah, that's something
that I want to do, and I'll probably make that
turn that into a course for the Logos Academy. Eventually
you're muted. I can't hear you.
Speaker 1: Tell us about Logos Academy. I'm looking at it over
here the link long form lectures Private Breakdown's Philosophical Training.
What are you envisioning here? Is there a course already up?
I see you've got already eighty six Members's the what's
the overall plan? Here?
Speaker 2: So the idea is this is a men's community. So
I'm sorry women out there, this is for men and
it's a male only space. And the idea of the
Logos Academy obviously I've you know, I don't run a church,
but my YouTube channels called Church of the Eternal Logos.
It's just a theological perspective from Logo on various topics,
and Logos Academy is trying to basically build an environment
for men, young men, but most of the people in
there already like established men where we can talk about
and discuss anything, and I can then utilize my academic
or educational skills for that community specifically. So the first
thing that we're going to do, I mean right now,
what we have is I have all my exclusive members
content and part two streams that I actually have to
think Jay for because he's the one that gave me
the idea, and then we actually need to think Jamie
because she's the one that gave him the idea. But
all those streams that I've done, those are over on
the Logos Academy now much more accessible and easily to access.
The goal is for to take the dissertation, which is
very very academic. This is not a mass reader. This
is like three hundred pages of DNSE academic intellectual history
on the relationship of technology from really the medieval period,
and it's tied with millenarianism and how transhumanism. I make
the argument actually emerges out of a Christian ethos beginning
with John Scoto's Irregina. He was one of the court
philosophers for the Carolingian Empire right in the middle of
the eight hundreds, and he was a neil Platonist. He
was an Irish Neil Platonist, and he developed this idea
that the mechanical arts because during the Carolingian era there
was referred to as the Carolingian Renaissance, where like the
plow and the watermill and these things emerge as technologies
that allowed labor to be easier. And of course during
that period you have the rise of the Benedictines of
the Ara at Lebora, tying a sort of spirituality with work.
And I argue that John Scott's Iregina then presented that
technology was going to redeem all the lost attributes of Adam.
So Adam was a perfect spiritual person and what everything
he lost to become the rupted man. Technology was going
to redeem in us. And then I trace that concept
and the dispositions towards technology through people like you of
Saint Victor Roger Bacon. And this gets tied with Yakima
Fiore's Millenarianism, where he believed this Third Age, the Age
of the Holy Spirit. Sacraments were no longer important, the
priesthood was no longer Essentially, it's a form of Protestantism
because it was the Age of Holy Men. As long
as you were virtuous and spiritual, the Holy Spirit would
inform you. And this was going to be a utopian age.
It was kind of a millinery and disposition. Well that
literally informs somebody like Francis Bacon when he writes The
New Atlantis where he develops a new understanding of science
and he does away with the Aristotilian understanding of categories
and logic. Not that he's against that stuff, but he
presents a new utilitarian form of science, that science and
knowledge is all about practical utility. And I traced that
into then the founding of the Royal Society, the founding
of speculative Freemasonry, and the rise of the engineer. You
get people like Henry Saint Simone and Augusta Kompt where
now you have this positivist scientific philosophy which is still millenarian.
And then I tie that with America being the city
on the Hill, and that many people theologians, whether it
be John Edwards moving forward, believe that America was going
to be the millenary and kingdom. And so that dissertation
traces that idea into then contemporary transhumanism as a form
of post secular deification Orthodox theosis. And then I demonstrate
how both of these are basically two competing narratives coming
out of the Christian world regarding deification. One is pre
modern the Orthodox theosis, which maintains the old metaphysical order
and essentially Aristotelian categories and all this stuff. Where the
new one is coming out of this historical thread where
technology and existential pursuits are going to lead us towards
you topia, and that orthodox he views transhumanism in its
own eschological terms related to the Antichrist.
Speaker 1: Yes, well, we both you and I both covered in
our videos the Peter Teal interview, where Teal seems to
seems to sort of take Christianity as this allegory for
technological transhumanism and immortality. That's kind of my reading of
that weird interview, and he mentioned what was a Renee
Garard I've not read. I have the book, somebody recommended it,
but I have never gotten to it yet. So I'm
assuming that he just sort of takes the Christianity in
this sort of a symbolic way, kind of a Jordan
Peterson style.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, yeah. And so to wrap up that
whole dissertation, that is basically an orthodox Christian critique of
transhumanism utilizing the methodology of intellectual history. That's what that is,
and my goal is to have that published by the
end of August. So the Logos Academy that is a
separate project obviously tied related to it, and that may
turn into courses. But the first thing we're going to
do in the Logos Academy we have bi monthly meetings
where we have free form conversations and then we just
had one last night, and the members want to do
like topic themed two hour conversation, So maybe I post
an article or something and then if people want to
read it, you don't have to read it, but you
can then join the meeting and we can talk about
things like a classroom setting. And then we have a
fitness group that kind of holds people accountable for fitness, diet,
spiritual life, and then career or life goals. And so
those are the three meetings we do every month, and
my goal is to create The first course will be
a history on the logos, beginning with the pre Socratics,
people like Heraclitis and this idea of logos, moving into
eventually the Gospel of John and the ending of the
Neoplatonic academies, and that will be tied with My goal
is to create an ebook related to that, and then
another course on the history of metaphysics essentially from the
Midia Evil period to the postmodern turn in the twentieth century,
and that is the kind of continuation of the same conversation.
And then I want to build out a course that
is going to go into deeper to regards to that ebook.
So those are kind of the two big projects that
we talked about last night in the group that I
want to try to get done by the end of
this year. So by the end of twenty twenty five,
there should be two full courses on the history of
logos the history of metaphysics, tied with ebooks that are
kind of introductions to those topics, and then Part two
streams exclusive videos all my show notes or study guides
are available for the group, and then of course our
three meetings each month, plus sometimes Q and a's. So
that's kind of what we do at the group, and
it's kind of themed like an ancient academy. I mean
we want I mean last night, some of the guys
are like professional powerlifters, and it's an interesting amalgamation of
different guys and it's just a place for us to
come to get other as you know, adults, as men,
and be able to learn and discuss things that you
really can't with other people.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's good to reclaim men's spaces. That's such a
neglected thing given you know, the dominance of feminism in
our era. I want to remind you guys that I
will be speaking to the third annual Ludwell Orthodox Fellowship
Conference in Stafford, Virginia. This is outside of d C,
so if you're in the DC region, this is September sixth,
twenty twenty five. I will be speaking there along with
Metropolitan Jonah Jim Jatras, our good buddy, Buck Johnson, our
good friend Proto Decon, doctor Patrick, Father Turbo, and some
other priests and people I'm not familiar with. I'm sure
they're all great people I'm just not familiar with, and
of course Rebecca that runs Dissident Media. It's going to
be a great conference Saturday, September sixth, twenty twenty five, Stafford, Virginia,
and you can get the tickets in the link in
the show description in the link right there. We'll also
be having a upcoming conference here in Florida. Again. This
will be our second conference at my church here in Florida.
The first conference that we did on Iconography with Father
Deacon and Father Vladimir was a big hit. We had
a lot of a lot of fun. We had a
nice crowd. So we're going to have an even bigger conference,
bigger crowd this year. This year's focus, I don't have
the ticket page up. It will be in November, just
let you guys know. So we do have plenty of time.
But the theme this year will be Athens in Jerusalem.
So we're going to be contrasting these two approaches to
reality to society civilization. One of course focusing on human
reasoning and philosophy, and of course Jerusalem focusing on the
person of Christ, the Messiah and divine revelations. So what
is the relationship. Is it an antipropy, is it an
antithesis as Tratolian said, What have Athens to do with Jerusalem?
Or is there a possibility of overlap or or what
that will be? The focus will also be getting into aesthetics.
Of course, by the Vladimir lectures on art history. He's
an art history teacher. He focuses on the techniques and
styles of the Renaissance masters and how they put certain
structures and geometric patterns and forms into their works, and
that also of course influences later Russian art styles. Dance commodore,
no way we did that one textas became a member
shout out to textas Jonathan Britton two dollars. This is
a kind of a complicated question. Basically, he asks what
is the Orthodox Church's idea on THC, CBD, silo, cybin,
et cetera. In short, I will answer it as saying
that I think that anything can be medicinal, because every
thing that exists God created and created it good. But
any of those things could also be conceivably abused. This
is a great question though, that I'm gonna ask a Cotel.
I'll ask doctor dph is it are there any potential
medicinal usages for mushrooms and these kinds of things. I
know we have this maps thing going, which is I
think Soros funded. And I'm not talking about minor attracted persons.
I'm talking about a different things. The thing that has
to do with like studying hallucinogens. I would say, like
I knew a guy who was a severe alcoholic. He
was a good friend of mine from high school. He
ended up dying a couple of years ago, one of
my good friends, and I would say, like, in his case,
he's at such an advanced state of extreme alcohol addiction
that I don't think some extreme measure, like perhaps some
program that might have utilized this to to help him
break free of extreme alcoholic addiction. Maybe in some of
these extreme cases, something like that could work. But doctor
David Patrick Harry, what do you think?
Speaker 2: I agree with you? It's that that's the always the
response whenever I do a stream on psychedelics, people in
the chat go, well, what about the John Hopkins research
and the point is that these things are nuanced, and
so has psilocybin or MBMA shown signs of effectiveness regarding
PTSD or severe forms of addiction even I begain, Yeah,
they have. Well I thought you just told me that
these things are spiritually you know, problematic. Why Well, clearly
it's helping people. Well, as I would argue, is that
they do dissolve boundaries. And if you have a boundary
due to post traumatic stress disorder that you're constantly reliving,
you're constantly moving through every single time, every time a
firework goes off. That Yeah, it has shown that if
you get into these altered states and you sort of
kind of dissolve these boundaries and have a phenomenological experience
where you're able to sort of move beyond them when
you become sober, you're not as throttled with that same
stress and that trauma. So are they beneficial in that way? Yeah?
I could see how somebody who's in extreme mental anguish
due to trauma that this might be beneficial. Same thing
with potential CBD use. I mean, obviously that's not anee
grating THHC. You know, everybody points to glaucoma or appetite
suppression for people that are cancer patients. Yeah, I could
see how that could be beneficial. At the same time,
every time you alter your consciousness, you open yourself up
to spiritual warfare. I mean, as orthodox, we're being inundated
with thoughts that aren't entirely are all the time. When
you dissolve the ability of self awareness and even recognize
things that are infiltrating your mind, you are way more
susceptible to believing and falling victim to prelast than ever before.
So they are spiritually dangerous, even if there are potential
medical applications in certain circumstances. But just because there are
potential benefits doesn't mean that that should be a free
pass for your own consumption or use because you're self medicating.
If you have a really strong tide to these things
and you find it hard to give them up, well
there's probably a deeper problem there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's see. Pano says again five dollars. Thank you guys.
Listening to you guys talk about this. I'm reminded about
the horrors of narcissistic abuse, where the victims are made
to doubt their perceptions of reality. Would you say that
these substances destroy the gnomic will. I would say that
any addiction or any mind altering substance could conceivably maybe
not destroy the will, but enslave the will. M what
do you think?
Speaker 2: No, I totally agree. I mean anybody who smoked weed.
I had a bad habit through my twenties, smoked every
single day. Once you get sober, despite what a pothead
will tell you that, well, it helps me be creative,
it help it helps me come up with ideas. If
you're sober, you have a stronger drive for work, to
accomplish things, to achieve goals. That yeah, absolutely, it makes
you apathetic to some degree. And so if you're sober
and living a healthy life, I promise you the quality
of your work and the desire to actually accomplish something,
and your testosterone is going to go up. Marijuana is
a female plant. It lowers It's been shown to lower
your testosterone.
Speaker 1: I might have missed this super chat. A couple of
days ago. Jeff cast five dollars. American Eagle releases an
ad that isn't super gay, and people complain neat.
Speaker 2: Me and Eugene.
Speaker 1: I think we read that one. Let's see here here
we go storm the cat ten dollars. My dad's friend
and other friends have encountered witches in the woods. They
were standing in a circle, and there they had drawn
in the mud a circle, and there was a Ouiji board,
and they were moving in unnatural ways, and supposedly one
of them levitated, well, I would just stay away from
the witches. J Mal thirty dollars. Why would Kraljung think
Christianity rose out of a mythri cult? Do you think
Jordan Peterson believes that? Well? Um, I mean probably in
the case of kral Young, who I've read a decent
amount of kral Young, I think he probably was just
looking for alternative explanations and why he's settled on this
one or that one. Who knows? I think probably out
of just pride and academic, you know, arrogance. And I
would say maybe in Jordan Peterson's case, I don't know
if he thinks Christianity is mithra or not, but he
just still, you know, can't he can't bite the bullet
on Christianity in Toto. So what do you think.
Speaker 2: The phenomenon first launched off? I think there's a video
on my old YouTube channel before I became christian I
posted a video from Jordan Peterson essentially spouting the you
know this mushroom type theory related to Christianity, So I
can find it on my old YouTube channel. I can
find it download.
Speaker 1: So you're saying Peterson has in the past endorsed this
type of an allegro theory.
Speaker 2: Yeah, some type. I mean, it's been a while since
I watched it, but it was tied with the connection
between mushrooms and Christianity and essentially was promoting the benefits
of this sort of inebriating spirituality to enlighten oneself. And
he refers to the John Hopkins research and stuff like that,
but pulls basically from everybody that we've already discussed presently
about this sort of general theme of how Christianity may
be tied with inebriating substances. But maybe his opinion has changed.
I just remember downloading that and posting it like twenty seventeen,
and it was when he became popular. He had like
tons of videos already on his YouTube channel, and it
was an old video that I found on there. At
the time, I was into psychedelics and I thought, oh, wow, Peterson,
he knows what's going on. But now it makes you
think his gnostisism and his unwillingness actually identify as Christian.
It's like, Okay, maybe he's actually still in that camp.
Speaker 1: Santo's Bnacci is an insane person. I don't know what
people in the chat like, I don't know. You put
this topic in and and it just attracts like the
most ridiculous people in the jet. No, we don't deal
with insane people over here.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I remember.
Speaker 1: We went through on my channels quite a bit of
Jordan Peterson's Personality lectures, and in those there's a significant,
maybe an entire lecture on Christianity and the Trinity and
the person of Christ. And basically it was just Zeitgeist
level stuff that like Isis and Horace and Mary's Isis
and Jesus is the Son of Raw. It was like
Zeitgeist level stuff. So maybe he's still sort of hung
up in that mindset. I remember the when you debate
a z Zec in twenty nineteen or twenty twenty. You know,
Jesus isn't divine, but he's like this, he's like a
symbol for suffering and overcoming or something.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he's like the the Adam Kadman of the
astrological cycle. So I remember Santos stuff. It's all tied
with this astrology. It's a mixture of like Jordan Maxwell
and you know a lot of this like New age spirituality.
So I haven't I haven't seen or heard of Santos
in a while. I'm not sure what what he what
he does, but his spirituality is a gnostic illuministic framework
where Christ is an archetype for who you're supposed to become,
and all the religions are pointing towards this perennial truth,
and that the zodiac is the the sort of ultimate
rubric to understand medicine and healing and and the passing
of seasons, time history, all these different things. So it is.
Speaker 1: We get I appreciate you guys being so supportive. It's
a good sign when we can't move along because there's
so many super chats. Appreciate that you guys are being
the beloved pay piggies that we appreciate. Involving double monkey
twenty dollars, I spoke to Charismatic. He said that God
sent him a dream about his knee surgery. He looked
for a doctor who agreed that he needed knee surgery. However,
the surgery didn't work. I asked him how he knew
the dream wasn't from the devil, and he didn't say anything. Yeah,
it's I mean, that's why in the Orthodox Church we
just don't focus and pay attention to this kind of
stuff because everybody in the charismatic world, and the Roman Tholicism,
by the way, has accepted charismaticism holds from the papacy down.
It just leads to everybody being diluted, and they follow
their dreams and their visions, which, as Jeremiah says, are
from their hearts and not from God. So exactly, any
thoughts on dreams and visions, And I mean, I think
psychedelics are a big part of prelest too, Like they
give you this like you think you're seeing these great insights,
and it's like, nah, dude, like the seven ten year
old staring at a candy wrapper realizing that reality is
all one is not some great mystical insight.
Speaker 2: Right, No, I agree. I think you know, just be
cautious at dreams. I've seen too many people, even Orthodox Christians,
try to make like ultimate conclusions from a dream. Obviously,
we know the prophet Daniel was able to interpret dreams,
so dreams do have some significance. But who are you.
You're not the prophet Daniel. You know your ability to
interpret the you know, the walking dog headed entity that
you encountered in your you don't know what that means,
so just stop.
Speaker 1: I think also, like probably Deacon says, like if if
if you were given dreams from God, from the spirit
or something like that, like you would be interpreting this
in the context of your spiritual father kind of helping
you in guiding you, and He's gonna not let you
be diluted or fall into some you know, prelust, So
it would be in the context of the church. It
wouldn't be you know, I don't know, like I mean,
for example, Sam Schamun, Sam Chomun's whole ethos is a
bunch of dreams and visions and nonsense and orbs flying
around his room. All that's pre last No. One five dollars.
You should investigate all the people who claim to see
visions of Christ and angels during the time of Joseph Smith.
This is a very odd part of history. I think.
In the in the case of Joseph Smith at number one.
He's just a con man. I mean it's impossible. It's
possible that he saw some sort of angelic entity claiming
to be Moron I or he just understood the power
of uh you know, of the con and just claiming
to have seen visions. Any comments on Joseph.
Speaker 2: Smith, I totally agree. I mean Joseph Smith, Yeah, I mean,
that's a mixture. His dad was deeply interested in the occult.
I mean, I would argue Mormonism is the mixture of
Western Asotericism, Protestant Christianity, and Freemasonry. It's kind of the formation,
the foundation of what Mormonism is. So you know, yeah,
anybody who believes are that, or believes in the revelations
of Joseph Smith has problems with their critical reasoning skills exactly.
Speaker 1: Maximus Pike seven pounds, Thank you, gentlemen, Thank you, Maximus.
Appreciate that. A panini two pounds. Jay, they're euros, not pounds.
Excuse me, that's a euro nine a pound whatever. That
to me, it's all fake. They're all fake, unless it's bitcoin.
It might be spirit led. Paul, ten dollars. Do you
have any thoughts on Zoroastrianism and the claims that it
influenced Christianity, or any videos about Orthodoxy debunking this. Well,
I'll say that that's something that was very popular in
like older one hundred year old scholarship, like late eighteen hundreds,
early nineteen hundreds. I don't know that that's that popular
anymore in academian scholarship, and you'll learn, I think, if
you get deep into academic stuff, that a lot of
these things are fads, right, So academia has fads, and
they'll say things like, oh, early Christianity is influenced from Zoroastrianism,
and this is really popular in that you're nineteen hundred,
and then by nineteen seventy nobody believes this anymore. So
I don't think that's really happening in academia anymore. But
I don't keep up with academia because it's a bunch
of nonsense anyway. So any thoughts on Zoroastrianism, doctor David
Patrick here.
Speaker 2: I mean outside of it being an early monotheistic faith. No,
I've seen the arguments on Zorastrianism influencing Christianity, but the
very different paradigms the presuppositions are different. You know, people,
I think the word concept fallacy is problematic because maybe
there are similar things that are meant, but they're interpreted
by those traditions very differently. So outside of Zoroastrianism being
an early form of monotheism at a period in which
it wasn't prevalent, I think it's historically significant for that
it allowed for more literate culture in Persia, allowed for
a little bit more cultural cohesion compared to the myth
rhythm of previous times. But no, there's not a there's
not a huge correlation between the same thing, like as
you said with the Zeitgeist, I mean, the whole thing
with Christ being another form of Mithra or Apollo or
sole invictus. I mean, yeah, that was cool in the
early two thousands, but that's just not taken seriously anymore.
Speaker 1: Let's see the last super chet here that I see,
and then we'll get back to the some of the
books and the text here. Yeah, Kubi and Yapper type
one dollar Doctor David Patrick Curry, you should do a
drama stream after this? What's love? I love the drama streams.
By the way, what's the next drama stream?
Speaker 2: I don't know. Whenever something I think I get enough
interesting news that comes up, But I mean, right now,
I don't know what the big drama is to do,
but yeah, those are fun. I just kind of go with.
Speaker 1: Well, apparently the only big drama is that Sydney Sweeney
wore blue jeans and reference genetics and that's somehow, you know,
the third Reich or something.
Speaker 2: So that's the Well, then Arby's just did a commercial
and some US company just did a commercial, both kind
of playing off the same theme. So that is a
little cultural drama because we're seeing even major corporations like RB's,
American Eagle and whatever that smoothie place was that the
white guy did, that's all kind of saying the same thing.
So it feels like there's kind of a cultural shift
in some way that's going on.
Speaker 1: Jeff coasts five dollars. Yes, I've answered this question many times,
not being a douchebag. It's come up a lot. Have
you seen the people that claim that Yahweh was a
storm god then he became the god of the Bible. Yeah,
so basically there's a great I don't usually recommend this person,
but Weemland Craig does have one good book that's called
Creation x Nilo, where he shows that the way that
God has presented in just the Torah shows that he
is not at all like the surrounding ancient Near Eastern
deities that encompassed the nation of Israel, and he lists
I think about ten different distinctives that set that God off. Furthermore,
within the text itself, Baal is a storm god, and
that is not Yahweh. One reason that very low IQ
low tier people think this is because the word by
all can mean something generic, like just a lord. And
so you might call you know, Jesus lord, you might
call Satan lord, you might call something you know, Elohem
is another one of these terms that can just be
a generic word for a deity. And so very stupid
people who don't know about language and how word concept
felacies work, they will think that that word always refers
to the same thing. So if you have an Old
Testament statement of Lord in one sense section referring to
you know, Yahweh in another section where the Lord of
the Canaanites right byal or whatever, they'll think it's the
same reference. It's just a generic term like lord. Lord
can be You could call Satan lord. You could call
Jesus lord. It's a very very simple grammar mistake. Harvest
two dollars. Is this a Christian YouTube channel? We're both
Orthodox Christians. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think the icons kind of give it away.
Speaker 1: Unbound. Five dollars, Jay, I thank you for everything. Can
you explain the jays Analysis membership and what a subscriber gets.
It's very simp simple, very boomer friendly. You just when
you subscribe, you just go to the one single tab
called member tab, and everything is under the members tab.
There's no going all around. You just have one tab
where there's the part one of the part two. Very
boomer friendly. That's it. You get access to all of
the interviews and talks that I've done for the last
i'd say ten years. I think Jay's Analysis is about
ten years in terms of the archives. Okay, so let's
we'll get another super red Fox. Ten dollars Jay, Doctor dph.
What is the subtle way that spiritual warfare manifests in
our cult culture and how does orthodox practices like prayer
and fasting equip you to counter the influences? Well, I
would just say that, you know, really fasting and that
kind of stuff is only a useful tool in terms
of helping us to maintain and keep self control. Fasting
itself doesn't do like we don't pay God with fasting.
God doesn't benefit from us not eating. It's really just
a way for us to discipline ourselves, to attain to
and maintain self control and the means of grace, like
prayer and especially you know, the Eucharist. That's the way
in which we obtain the actual ontological power to not
fall prey to the cultural influences, the demonic influences. And
that's because we're participating in the uncreated grace and life
and love of God through the sacraments and prayer and
so forth. That's what I would say, Cotel, Do you
have anything to add to that.
Speaker 2: I mean, basically what you said, I would add that prayer, fasting,
the Eucharist, participating in the sacraments. This helps give you
spiritual discernment, allows the Holy Spirit to be present within you.
If you have more discernment, you're going to be able
to navigate, whether it be propaganda, internal thoughts people you
encounter much easier. So basically, what Jay said, the practice
is the spiritual practice of Orthodoxy allow you to be
a carrier of the Holy Spirit and have more discernment
regarding the things that are happening. That's how you navigate
and offend yourself against it.
Speaker 1: Jacob Kaba ten dollars. I was watching doctor David Patrick
Carey's talks on Saint Paizios and the prophecies. What are
your opinions on in times and the prophecies and could
they be used by elites or are they more guided
by God's will? Well, I mean, this is an area
that I don't really delve into. I don't know a
whole lot about it, so I don't have a positive
or negative opinion. I know that Cotail spend a lot
more time in this domain than I have, so I
would say that when the end times come, will know.
I don't think we have to worry too much about it.
I'm not saying that people can't study, you know, the prophecies,
the elders and whatnot. They absolutely can. That's up to
you and what you know, what you get into, what
you find interesting. It's possible that elites could fake prophecies,
there could be forgeries, or any of these things are possible.
I don't have any evidence necessarily of that, but it
is definitely within the realm of possibility. Are they more
guided by God's will? I think holy men absolutely are
are more guided by God's will, But I would I would.
My take on this would just be that I think
that divine revelation as a public binding thing ceased. That
doesn't mean that there aren't and clairvoyant people in the church,
but I don't think you can like bind everybody to
these private revelations. That's my understanding.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would. I would agree, and also say that
I've done a lot of streams regarding looking at some
of the eschological visions of various saints and elders, and
if this stuff gives you anxiety, like, that's not the point.
And really these aren't these aren't timelines for history. And
as that Jay said, these are private revelations among some
holy men. Some of them are very insightful, and it
appear based on a third party, that they've been fulfilled,
that they've come true. But really, if you read this stuff,
uh in St. Piecios included was that these are just
signs to be aware of. Uh. Saint Piacio's was big
on the encroachment of technocracy and ecumenism, and that these
are signs that every orthodox Christian needs to be aware
of because they are going to move towards uh the
new Babylonian kingdom, you know, the kingdom of the Antichrist.
Does that mean I mean that you know something he
said in the nineteen eighties. You need to be like
searching the news every day and concerned and trying to
pinpoint like no spiritual discernment, participating in the sacraments of
the church, and then just hearing what the saints and
elders have to say and looking for signs when they emerge.
That's the point of it.
Speaker 1: Let me ask you this because I overlooked this question.
Red Fox originally said. The first line in his super
chat was doctor or David Patrick Harriet, what are the
subtle ways that spiritual warfare manifests and culture that we
don't notice?
Speaker 2: I would say, obviously your imagination. That's the one that
I talk with guys the most about is they get
weird thoughts, and everybody's had the experience. You know, maybe
you're on a tall building and you kind of walk
towards the edge and all of a sudden you get
a thought like to jump like to just kill yourself.
We would believe that that's not you thinking, that that
is a suggestion, that's low giz me, that's a suggestion
from a demon or the evil one, and that these
are the subtleties that are occurring every day. But also
those subtleties can emerge through the music you listen to,
through propaganda, through if you're believing news or mainstream news
like these are another ways in which subtle subversion can
take place. And you just have to believe a lie
to move in the wrong direction. And that's the whole
point of the sort of subtle spiritual warfare. I want
to say one last thing on the eschatology thing is
this stuff isn't for everybody. I know people love to
hear about in time for the apocalypse, But the whole
point is just to get this stuff available with what
I work with with the Escaton Vigil in English. A
lot of this stuff. Almost everything we've translated has been
either in Russian, Serbian, Romanian or Greek, and they've never
been in English. So our goal is just to try
to get this stuff in English. And if you're wanting
to participate in a community of men that are aware
of these things and can interpret them in a way
that doesn't cause anxiety and stress, which is absolutely not
the purpose of any of it. Then you can join
the Logos Academy because the Escaton Vigil, the founder of that,
he's in our group. And if you sign up today tomorrow,
the price is going to go up. I told for
the first week it was a founding members price, So
right now if you join, your price will be locked
in for twenty five dollars a month. Again, that includes
three meetings a month, all the exclusive content, and then
the courses that I'm going to build out. So my
estimation it's a great value compared to what other people
are doing with the amount of time that I'm putting
in with actual Zoom meetings, because as Jay knows, those
are actually very time intensive and it takes you away
from doing other work. So but if that's the kind
of community you want to be in, where if you
have a question Jacob on stuff like this, like we
actually have guys that are reading this stuff and are
not consumed by anxiety about it and can talk to
you in a very rational and well tempered way.
Speaker 1: Spirit led Palfi dollars, do you have blessings to debate
so that I can send crazy people to Please do
not send crazy people to me. I mean, I don't
think that you need a blessing to do a debate.
I mean I think that the more that you move
into trying to teach people, uh you know, spiritual life
stuff and to try to be like a spiritual father
or something like that, you need that that blessing. But
I think everything that we do, you know, people know
who our priests are, we know they know, you know
where we go, what we're up to. You don't have
to get your priests or your bishop's blessing for everything
that you do. It really and also kind of depends
on the context of what you're doing it, Like you know, uh,
you know doctor Cotel, you calling you doctor doctor David Patrick,
Harry and I we both went on whatever and debated
kind of crazy feminist.
Speaker 2: Chicks that'll either we don't need we don't have to call.
Speaker 1: The bishop that you know, see if we can debate
some crazy chick on whatever podcast. But but no, please
don't send crazy people my way. Please don't tennis racket
eleven dollars and forty one cents. That guys, thank you.
For the stream. Bless God, bless you both. David. I'm sorry, brother,
I wanted to say something hurtful in your stream. You
are great well. I think we're both men here. I
don't think your word. Your words are not going to
hurt us. We're rubber, you're glue. Whatever you say bounces
off of us and sticks to you, so our feelings
are not hurt. We're big boys. Let me see him.
Make sure I'm not missing a super chat here. Okay,
let me ask you about the Esslin Institute because you
recommended this book. I have read some of it by
Jeffrey Krippall. It is a very enlightening and I think
the thing that really first stuck out to me that
made me want to get it as I was sort
of flipping through it was the chapter Sex with Angels,
the Non Local Mind UFOs, and the end to Ordinary History,
where we talk about this figure of Russell targ the
Cia psychic spy who became a mystic. Once I see that,
I'm enthralled. Esalin seems to me to be the sort
of the boomer think tank that births almost It's sort
of the the brains behind the sixties counterculture revolution and
it even gets into this out there sort of alien
and CIA stuff. What about Essline? What about this book?
And how does Esslin play into your thesis when it
comes to hallucinogens and transhumanism?
Speaker 2: So, I mean Eslin is the foundation of what's called
the human potential movement, and whether you're talking about transhumanism
or psychedelic mysticism, the human potential movement is essential to
both of those. And the belief is that we're capable
of way more than we're actually presenting now, and that
these are sort of spiritually latent abilities and stuff.
Speaker 1: By the way, By the way, I'm sorry, let me
just at one point, I don't I don't forget this
human potential thing, because Jamie asked me about this last night.
She said, who's Norman Vincent Peel? People don't know that
Norman Vincent Peel is the father of positive thinking, and
I'm assuming that also is going to tie into what
you're saying with Esslin, And don't forget that positive thinking
is also what influenced people like Robert Schuler the first
big megachurch Crystal Cathedral stuff, to take Christianity and turned
it into a positive thinking with a cult with a
Christian Veneer.
Speaker 2: And that's the official Christianity according to the White House
right now? The was it Paula White?
Speaker 1: Oh? Is she part of that?
Speaker 2: Yeah? So, And that's how I know that Trump is
because Trump was a big Peel fan, and he's all
into positive thinking. That's part of his rhetoric is that
he always wants to rhetorically display something in the way
in which he wants it to be. He's very convinced
that this positive thinking and the law of affirmation and
the way you the words, Hey.
Speaker 1: Dude, I manifest that stuff. I just manifested. I want
it and I'm manifested.
Speaker 2: Bro. Yeah. Well, and that's why Paula White was his
personal pastor. I mean, she's one of these prosperity Gospels,
but she's all positive thinking. And that's why Trump latched
onto hers, because she basically validated his secular law of
attraction into a form of Protestant Zionis Christianity. So regarding
the Human Potential movement in Eslin, though, Esslin is a
fascinating little piece of history that most people, as the
average person, has never even heard of. But this was
really the think tank, I mean, in nineteen sixty three,
so just you know, everybody knows the nineteen sixties counterculture,
but it's nineteen sixty three that Leary gets fired from
Harvard because ram Das was having a gay relationship with
an undergraduate student. Rams, yeah, exactly, So they get fired
from Harvard. So from sixty to sixty three is the
early Harvard research on psilocybin. Sixty three is also then
when the Esslin Institute begins to have people like Aldus
Huxley come and present his sort of perennial philosophy, and
so you know, sixty seven is the Summer of Love,
sixty nine is Woodstock, and so that gives you a
little bit of a timeframe. And so through the sixties,
the Esslin Institute is where the people of the counterculture,
you know, essentially, and Krypel talks about that, it's a
it's a who's who. I mean, everybody who goes there
basically as a PhD. So this isn't like the average,
you know, run of the mill kind of person. This
is an institute dedicated to advancing humanity to its like
ultimate endpoint and its capabilities. So they're using gestalt therapy,
they're using psychedelics, they're using tantric forms of yoga, anything
in regards to the elevation you know, of personal consciousness
is being used there. There's a famous story that you
probably read of Hunter Thompson actually being pissed because they
have there's like a natural spa there at Esslin, and
even in the early six these gay men would go
there and Hunter s Thompson, who was not fan of
homosexual he was part of the counterculture, and he was
actually hired by Michael Murphy to be the sort of
security guard for the premises and allowed him to stay
there while he worked on some of the different stuff.
He actually went out there to confront four gay men
who were frolicking with each other in the bath and
actually got beat up by them, and he never returned
to Eslin again.
Speaker 1: No, I did not know that we have. Jamie and
I took a road trip some years back when we
were first dating, and we did drive up Big Sir,
and we drove past it, but we didn't go to it.
Speaker 2: It's beautiful the area, I mean.
Speaker 1: It is gory, Yeah, Big Sir is awesome.
Speaker 2: I mean you literally look out there's whales, dolphins. I
mean it is like an ideal scenic Yeah, it's perfect,
yeah place, and it's built on the ruins of a
Native American.
Speaker 1: I don't know, well, this becomes I mean, it becomes
a hub right of the counter culture. You've got Deepak Chopra,
You've got like all of these sort of big counterculture
figures at some point have gone and done lectures and
seminars at Esslin.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Abraham Maslow, I mean for his his hierarchy of
values again, that's all that was tied with the Human
Potential Movement because they're trying to get the you know,
what do people need, which then kinds ties with socialist ideas.
While they need they need food and shelter, they need education,
we need to provide all these things so that each individual.
Speaker 1: That was also part of M culture too. Maslow was
part of M cultra. The Human Potential Movement was studied
in mcultra too. In fact, they even put that into
military studies where they were experimenting on certain troops and
certain special operations divisions where they tried to inculcate them
with like extreme forms of positive thinking to see if
it could like alter how well they performed in battle.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so the Esslin Institute, to your point, I
mean we're talking like a skinner and his behaviorism, like
he went there to give lectures. This this whole thing
was about advancing and acquiring like supernatural abilities. And this
gets tied with quantum physics. You know, Russell Targ he's
like a remote viewer and they have this research. So
one of the interest things about Esslin is that during
the Cold War, somehow they had permission by the CIA
to be involved with other mystics in Russia. Now we
were told, you know, there was no communication between Russian
and America.
Speaker 1: Wearing a sky spies. Mark Hackert is a good essay
on Russian psychic spies called sy Spies.
Speaker 2: And there's a whole section in that book talking about
how somehow, you know, they were they were able to
take trips government sanctioned to Russia, Russians coming to Esslin,
and that they performed some remote viewing experiment where one
of the mystics in Russia was able to hold some object,
it was like a toy elephant or something, and that
one of the remote viewers at Esslin could then tap
into his awareness and they accurately described the thing that
they were holding. And so Russell Target is one of
these individuals that really big and promoting remote viewing and
access to these supernatural abilities.
Speaker 1: Well, this is like verging on like X Men levels,
you know, stranger things, you know, super kid type stuff
that they were evolving these like latent powers.
Speaker 2: Right, yes, Well Krepel has a famous article talking about
superheroes and comics and how this was actually the again
that forties, fifties, sixties culture of science fiction was absolutely
influencing what they thought they were doing at the Eslin Institute,
and it was literally to create these supernatural humans through
psychological process against stalt therapy, different things like that to
raise conscious.
Speaker 1: Oh, if you've seen that Brian De Palmer movie called
The Fury, you should watch that. We did a SIOP cinema,
the SYP cinema guys and I we did an analysis
of We called it MK Kids, which was the idea
of like movies that dealt with gifted children evolving to
have these sort of X men abilities. Three come to mind,
one of which is from nineteen seventy eight, and it's
like Brian De Palmer's version of the Exorcist. But it's
actually worth watching because I mean it's there's some crazy
like Cia intelligence type stuff in there, Like it begins
with Michael Douglass in Israel faking a T E R
R O R attack on like an Israeli beach from Palestinians.
It's it's very bizarre, and then it turns into this
whole big intelligence drama where they're experimenting on his son
because his son has these sort of latent telekinesis abilities,
so it turns into it like a total sort of
MP Ultra style thing. There's also The Stephen King Fire
started with Drew Barrymore, which is about children developing these
things being studied by secret government projects telekinesis and whatnot.
And then there is The New Mutants with Anya Taylor Joy,
where uh, it's a backstory to The X Men, where
it's like they're putting these children in this like secret school,
which is kind of what Professor Ax is doing, but
in that case it's more explicitly that trauma based mind
control is believed to spur on and cause these psychic abilities,
which is something that does come up in this literature.
So I'm not trying to get off into the weeds,
but there's actually quite a few movies that touch on
this theme, right I.
Speaker 2: Mean we did a whole stream on Project Stargate. Oh ye,
good point, exactly well documented CIA funding project on again
really research we talked about. This research coming out of
Eslin is what influences in the CIA in the eighties
developing Project Stargate, which is ironically the same name of
the new AI project that Trump just oh right, right,
So yeah, there a lot of interesting connections in Eslin
was essentially the intellectual catalyst for all this stuff. This
isn't I mean, you can go as a regular person's
very expensive, but as Crypel talks about in that book,
I mean almost if you go in, you know, on
a regular day, almost everybody there's an academic or some
type of professional. This is kind of an elite place
for elite people that are interested in these projects. And eventually,
you know, by the eighties you get somebody like Terence
McKinnon who becomes a resident lecturer there, and so you know,
by the eighties and into the nineties, psychedelics and psychedelics
being something that can liberate you from the historical constraints
of man is part and parcel of the Esslin Institute,
and where it connects with transhumanism is by the nineties,
Leary is kind of given up on being the psychedelic
LSD guru. He writes a book like Your Brain Is God,
where he's arguing that computers are the new LSD and
that transhumanism is the future, and that everything that happened
in the sixties and seventies that he was a part of,
he's saying is going to be fulfilled through through technology
and computer and AI.
Speaker 1: Did you ever there's a great documentary that's pretty famous.
It's called The Unibomber, the Net and mk Ultra or
something like that. Have you seen that?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 1: You got to see that because they actually go and
interview people at Esslin Institute, and they they even get
into stuff like the Vienna the positivists of the Vienna
Circle and how it all ties into LSD and the
It's it's a really good documentary. I'll try to dig
that up and find that you should definitely watch. Everybody
audius to watch that too, And everybody should watch the
movies that we just mentioned, including The Fury. They're they're
all very relevant to what we're talking about and demonstrate
I think that this is this is all real, This
is not conspiracy stuff. This's actually very legitimately, Like I'm
not saying the Telekinese's powers are real. I'm just saying
that they really do study and are interested in this,
and it's infected the society so far as to like
literally be the origins indirectly of as he pointed out,
the Prospect Gospel all coming out of positive thinking. New thought,
I think is one of this too, is a new
thought part of that.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 1: Okay, So anything else you want to tell us about this,
and then maybe we can tie it into you know,
transhumanism and anything else you want to say about your
your thesis here, because this is all this is how
we got in the modern world.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is this is how we got to the
modern world. And I mean, I don't have much more
to say about Eslam. We kind of hit it. I mean,
unless you want to get into minutia that maybe some
of the people would be interested in. But generally speaking,
I mean, Eslin's just an important spot. I mean, when
you start talking about like Alan Watts and his Asian studies,
I forget exactly what it was, the American study of
Asian culture or something in San Francisco. All this stuff
is spawned out of the Esslin Institute, which was closely
tied with Stanford University, which Stanford University is, and it's
closely tied. And this is the conduit of how all
this stuff is connected. And when you read the history
of Eslin, you see that the government was not interested
in shutting all this stuff down, you know, the way
that it's present as the counter culture, right, they're fighting
against the man. But even in Kreipel's book, which is
celebrated by the founder of the Eslin Institute, it clearly
shows that the government was retarded.
Speaker 1: I hate that narrative so much. Just like the CIA,
the Foundations, the Thing tanks, the military, the Pentagon bankers,
they're all putting zillions of dollars into those exactly exactly.
Speaker 2: And just like you you pointed out about maps, Maps
is now the academically respected study of like psychedelics. So
if you are an academic, you're going to be affiliated
with this group and publish your research and association with them.
And again that is all tied back to the Eslin Institute,
which as you said, is tied with Soros funding and
globaliss initiatives and all that different stuff. Because it's fundamentally perennialus.
So the thing about Eslin that they don't accept is
if you to say one religion is absolutely.
Speaker 1: True, the way the truth life John fourteen six. Right,
that's the only thing that you can't see kick out.
Speaker 2: But if you're interested in perennialism, which is the basis
of that entire project, you're warmly welcomed and they don't
care where you come from or what you're into.
Speaker 1: I would add too, people overlook that Crowley is also
the father of the modern drug counterculture, right because Croley
wrote his drug Diary way before even Huxley was doing stuff,
and Huxley would go and do that. They would go
to orgies and drug parties together, him and Crowley, and
so doctor Richard Spence theorizes that Huxley got the idea
for drug experimentation, which is what would become in k Ultra,
through reading Croley's drug Diary. And remember that Crowley was
of course an asset for British intelligence, so these things
always overlap, and this is decades before the existence of Esslin.
Speaker 2: And even tied with that general history is Jack Parsons,
who was a member of the Hermitic Golden Downs with
Alis Da Crowley. They have of falling out because Parsons
was more radical than Crowley was here according to Crowley.
And a little tidbit about l Ron Hubbard, founder of
science uh Scientology is they he he documented an attempt
that Jack Parsons had to give birth to the Antichrist,
in which him Babylon Work committed, yeah, participate in a
sexual ritual with Jack Parson's girlfriend at the time, which
ended with l Ron Hubbard being ashamed of himself because
he's watching Jack Parson masturbade.
Speaker 1: Well. Also in Craig Heimbinger's book, he even alleges that
Parsons was sleeping with his mom because in one of
the Suckybius rituals he believed that you know, I n
c E. S. T. Was was required for that.
Speaker 2: They're into weird stuff.
Speaker 1: Red Fox ten dollars d. Do you remember what the
military study was called? If you're referring to the one
that I mentioned about, uh like black ops and positive Thinking,
It's it's from a one book that was published I
think by an Australian guy, and I did a podcast
on this because this is a really obscure, hard to
find book and if you go to my rock fin
I don't. I think it's it's probably for members too,
but it's like at Rocktin. It is something like MK
Ultra in Australia because people don't even know that M
culture wasn't just in America and Canada, it was actually
at universities all over the world. And uh, I mean
it's a lot. There needs to be like new research
done on this because I didn't even realize that like
Carl Jung and you and Cameron were they were at
they were at Bergoldsey in Switzerland doing experiments and people
don't even talk about or know this.
Speaker 2: Well, the Sandoz lab where Albert Hoffman created LSD was also.
Speaker 1: In Switchland, exactly exactly, and some guy wrote this book.
I'll have to I found it just randomly on like
a message board somewhere. I don't even remember the name
of it. I'll have to dig it up. But he
wrote a book about the history of M culture projects
in Australia basically, so there was all this research that
was done, even supposedly that serial killer who was doing
sleep studies and basically killed dozens of people at a
psychiatric and instead he's a famous He's most famous serial
killer in Australia. That was actually part of mkultr. He
was studying putting people to sleep to the point of
death and then bringing them back so like they're when
their heart rate would go all the way down to death,
and then bringing them back to see what he could
figure out. I mean, but he was actually just a
serial killer. He's getting off on doing it. I forget
that guy's named doctor Henry something. But that's all basically
all of it. Australia is a bunch of m kults
stuff is all it is. But I did not remember
the name of the book. I'd have to dig it up,
but it is in my archive under m Cultra stuff.
You could find it in there. And in that talk
I referenced the book random Name two dollars. Mister Mythos
did an excellent video on stargate. I don't mister Mythos,
but I will say that doctor David Patrick Harry and
I did a really good talk on stargates, so I
would say, check out ours. I don't know this other dude.
A penny two euros. What is your SBD? What does
that sound for? We don't know what that means? Death
culture ten dollars, what do you guys take on intentional communities?
What are your thoughts, if you have any, it would
be get to develop social capital for Orthodox You know,
this does exist to a degree amongst Orthodox there are
people who are almost experimenting but attempting to create Orthodox
only communities sort of outside of town. And I mean
I think that that's probably there a wise approach in
terms of this country sort of going downhill. I don't
think that would be a problem. But I think when
you talk about intentional communities with like yoga chicks and
you know, man bun dudes doing you know, meditation, that's
probably not going to work out too well. So what
do you think about intentional communities?
Speaker 2: I mean, I think long term it's it's probably a
good idea. We talk about this in some of our
group meetings about in an ideal world, it'd be nice
if there were hubs of Orthodox all across the United
States that theoretically Orthodox Christians could travel and stop from
community to community. Obviously, there's one kind of already growing
and exists outside Saint Anthony's in Arizona. I mean, they
basically have their own neighborhood. So I think if if
people were able to actually organize. That's the difficult part.
I think. First we need to begin with some type
of some type of document that can demonstrate all the
Orthodox business owners. So if you live in upstate New
York and there's an Orthodox guy that follows Jay and
he's a plumber, go hire him. We need to create
some type of economic incentive first of all, which we're
so disconnected, we're so small in the United States. It's
kind of hard. But you know, one of the ideas
I had a place like Mississippi. There's like old towns
that have like one hundred to two hundred people that
used to be thousands of people live there, and so
they have like an infrastructure old, kind of decrepit. But theoretically,
imagine like one hundred Orthodox families move into a town
that has infrastructure like that and begins to rejuvenate it,
and then we can elect our own mayor and we
could kind of build our own local government with something
that already exists. But again, making that happen logistically is
just pretty difficult. But if you know people that are
interested have the same values, yeah, absolutely, we need more
of community and we need places where people can actually
have reassurance with each other and their neighbor.
Speaker 1: Big iron Fi dollars Jay, Doctor David Patrick carry, there's
an arrative that early Christians use psychedelics. I doubt it
was ever accepted. Do you think this is credible? Well,
you must have missed the first hour, because we covered
all that in the first hour. And no, we don't
believe that. A Panini says SBD means squat, bench deadlift.
So doctor David, what is your SBD? Silent but deadly.
Speaker 2: I don't do any maxing right now, so everything I'm
doing is like eight to fifteen reps, so squats, a
couple forty five's on each side, same with bench, and
probably three plates and a twenty five on deadlift stuff
like that. But I'm not a powerlifter, so I really
don't do any maxing out and try to find the
max amount of weight.
Speaker 1: I can lift. Yeah, Also, I would say, I mean,
this is just my opinion, but there are some issues
like for example, ro Coorus had some issues with the
monasteries in Arizona, and when Laity go or confession or
they go to the monasteries, think they thinking that they're
being like super pious, and then they get advice that
monastics give to other monastics. There have been multiple problems
with this. Yes, so it may not be the best
idea to try if you're gonna set up an intentional
community to necessarily think that we have to move next
to a monastery. And I mean, I'm not saying you can't,
but I'm just saying that may not be like the
ideal situation. But that's because I'm in rocorps and there's
certain issues with that. Bon Jovi nineteen twelve, fifty dollars
and says nothing, Well, thank you so much. Appreciate that,
sir Jeff cost Us. I'm sorry about the Galway storm
gut question. You don't have to apologize. That's just a
question that you know. We have answered that. I appreciate
you answering it in different ways, detail ways. Keep up
the good word. Yeah, I would just say riad A
creation x Nilo by William Lane Craig, even though I
don't typically recommend William Lane Craig. But okay, so guys,
don't want to remind you to. I have a show sponsor,
which is chalk dot comchoq dot com, the best in supplementation.
You've got Oshawa Ganda for mental focus. You've got the
Tonkatilie for boosting testosterone, You've got the Chad mode for
pre workout. All those great products over at chalk dot
com choq dot com. Also to remind you guys that
next up, I'm halfway through Siphadin almost is excellent book,
the Bitcoin Standard. The first half of the book covers
the history of money. I didn't even realize that you're
basically getting an entire history lesson on money. Of course,
he is coming from the Austrian school of economics largely,
which is I would say about eighty to ninety percent correct.
I have some reservations about Austrian economics, but overall it's
definitely way better than socialist or Keynesian economics, of which
the first half is a great critique. The second half
then gets into the value proposition for bitcoin as a currency,
so we're gonna be covering that next maybe tomorrow. We'll
see when I'm ready to do a part one, So
be sure and come on over and listen to our
defense a bigcoin. I'm gonna be dealing with all the objections.
I've heard them all a million times for the last
nine years. I'm sure all of you and the audience
are going to have all the same thought objections, so
go ahead and bring it. I'm ready. Let's get into
Siphidine's book. And then of course we have a doctor
David Patrick. Harry's channel is linked to be sure and
follow him, and he is in the show description and
his logos academy. Do you have any other issues, any
other things on your mind you want to get? By
the way, who remind everybody? The last time that Cotel
and I did is stream. It was one of my
favorites because he brought me on to talk about British
intelligence and Islam. I love talking about espionage and spy stuff,
probably more than anything else. Well, I said that it's
equal up there with I mean, obviously I talk about theology,
but I'm saying like, other than the theological stuff, I
like to talk about the spy stuff and I like
to do the comedic stuff. So that's up there. So
be sure and check out our stream on British intelligence
and Islam. That was a fascinating topic. Kotol, What is
on your mind? What are you doing next? What should
we be looking for?
Speaker 2: I mean the big thing that I'm doing next is
as I mentioned earlier, is trying to get this dissertation published,
and so some of the stuff, as I kind of
gave an overview, I don't want to repeat myself, but
if you're interested in a detailed and then again, this
is very academic take on comparing Orthodox deification theosis and
how this has kind of been bastardized and how we
got to a point in which transhumanism is actually competing
with other Christian sentiments. And so there there is like
the Christian Transhumanist Association. It's actually I think headquartered in Tennessee,
maybe around Nashville.
Speaker 1: Even though so that's in our neighborhood.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's and it's not it's not really super influential,
but they are very outspoken and they try to they
try to corporate like Saint Maximus the Confessor and Orthodox
Saints as like oh look again, they're not Orthodox. It's
a very progressive form of Christianity. It's non denominational. But
they are constantly appealing to Orthodox theosis as being the
continuity and strand that transhumanists is emerging from. And so
the dissertation, like, if you're interested in theories of mine,
we're talking about functionalism and what is the metaphysics of
a transhumanist paradigm, and these various groups that are explicitly
religious in they're transhumanism. You know, there's the Alcore Life
Extension Center in Scottsdale, Arizona, this where they're doing cryonic
freezing and stuff like that. And the head philosopher of
transhumanism is Max Moore. He's an atheist guy who actually
has an article that I quote in the dissertation called
in Praise of the Devil where he appeals to Satan.
He argues, not an ontologically real figure, but a perfect
archetype to rebel against this constraining system of Christian morality,
and Christian it's almost like a Nietzschean thing, like the
Christian slave morality. So that transhumanism can actually elevate us
to the promise that Lucifer, the true inspiration of human liberation,
can move us towards. And so that dissertation, like I said,
it's going to be a book titled Return to Babylon
From Adam to Antichrist is the kind of working title
that I got. I'm trying to come up with a
book cover right now. And so we haven't fully landed
on one that's perfect. But the general theme I was thinking,
and anybody has advised, feel free to reach out to me,
was something like an apocalyptic dystopian wasteland where a Darwinian
evolution of man actually begins with like fallen atom and
leads to the transhumanist Antichrist, and behind them is like
an Orthodox Byzantine church or something, and it's not affected
by the detritus and all the debris of the dystopian
scene behind it, because there's not really again the academic
title so long and verbose that it it's not catchy.
So I came up with return to Babylon from Adam
to Antichrist, and I hope that's something of that theme. Again,
we haven't landed on something. I've been trying to use
AI and stuff to get a template, and then my
thumbnail guy who is going to help actually create the
actual book cover, so it's not just AI generated. But
I hope, as I said, to have that out by August.
And so I launched the Logos Academy. That was the
big one after the whatever podcast, is trying to launch
the community, get all the content up there again. If
you joined today, it's it's the last day. To get
the founding member price, which is just twenty five dollars,
and if you purchase for the full year, it's two fifty.
So you get two months free and you get a
free week. So if you sign up, you automatically get
a free week trial. So if you get on there
and you like.
Speaker 1: Get free weed, yeah, free weed, it sounds lot. Free week.
That was a joke.
Speaker 2: Free week. Yeah. So you get on there and you're like, yeah,
this deep h is full of shit, he doesn't you know? Okay,
you can leave and not spend any your money. I
would assume if you spend your time and you actually
engage with the guys in the community, you're going to
appreciate it and find it worth your value. I mean,
this is gonna My goal is once we have three
four courses, you know, the price to be a member
is going to continually to go up. So if that's
something you're interested in, and so, as I said, trying
to get some ebooks out. So by the end of
the year, my goal is to have one academic book,
which I know is not going to be a popular seller,
a couple general books for regular people, tied with courses
on the on the Academy. But then I was speaking
with and I mentioned, actually, Rachel thought this was a
great idea. Is I was thinking about writing a book
for an eighteen year old mail because you look at
like Relo Tomolo, he's got the rational mail or you know,
a lot of the people in the manosphere are these
online contents. I think Ruslan has his own book. They're
very general books for the average reader, yea. And so
everything that I've written is not for the average reader,
and it's not going to be popular. It's very academic.
So I thought for something more popular oriented, is I
was going to do it write a book called The
Crisis of Man, and I want to start on this
by the end of the year and basically bring an
eighteen year old male who knows nothing up to speed
on the state of the world, so central banking, federal reserve,
Fiat currency, the meaning crisis, the death of God, you know,
the history of philosophy, how we get to the post
modern turn, the death of masculinity, the destruction of a
nuclear families, all this different stuff that we're dealing with
in culture, and write it not so much for somebody
who has a background knowledge in this stuff, but assuming
an eighteen year old guy knows absolutely nothing to have
like a one hundred and fifty one hundred and seventy
five page book that kind of brings them up to speed.
And then the conclusion is orthodoxy. But it's not going
to be marketed as an orthodox book. It's just going
to demonstrate everything that we're dealing with again, the crisis
of man, why orthodoxy is the ultimate solution. So my
goal is that will be a general reader, a physical
copy book, and I hope to have that done by
like next summer. So that's kind of the big things
on the agenda. And of course creating streams so you know,
church eternal logos, that's always gonna kind of be the
same thing. And then I have an old YouTube channel
that we mentioned, the one on Psychedelics that I've kind
of rebranded as doctor David Patrick Harry, and I think
that's gonna be more of like whatever's the popular topic
people are talking about. Do like video reviews. I mean
you look at like the Daily Wires level of content.
It's really just commentary on things that the people are doing.
Speaker 1: I watched it one hour of Ben Shapiro, and I
was just sick because I've never watched it, and it's like,
basically he just watches a clip and then tells you
what was in the clip that you just watched, And
I'm like, well, why are people paying for this? I
don't understand, literally, what's the value in this is so lame?
Speaker 2: Basically the Daily Wire, Yeah, p.
Speaker 1: Man two dollars. Is there an Elamite Islamistan, Mason, Persian
caa connection? I don't know. It's a lot of things
strung together. I think the CIA definitely has an interest
in Shia Islam and Iran and in that sense Persia.
I don't know about all that other stuff though. V
Scott two dollars. Is the site something that women can
eventually join or only men?
Speaker 2: It's only for men right now. So last night we
had our first group meeting and it was overwhelmingly supported
by all the men that no women can join our meetings.
It's just an all male space. It's for male formation,
and we got guys that are very successful, like mature men,
and so the goal is to get young guys, established
men together and then talk about and learn about a
variety of different things. So no, no women are allowed. Unfortunately,
I'm sure there's women only spaces, but the logos against.
Speaker 1: It's a woman. It's a black woman only space over
here on my channel. So all of you ladies, especially
black ladies, You're all welcome over here on my channel,
even though co Tell doesn't want you. I do, right,
I'm like Lady Liberty over here. I got that torch.
Bring me all of your sullen masses and your black
ladies over here on my channel. I'm just kidding. You
look mad? Is that making you? You look like you're mad.
We've been making jokes on my channel for a while
now that like there's only like nine percent female audience
of my channel in terms of the demographics, but I
keep saying, like black people popping up in the comments.
So I'm thinking, like maybe I just have like nine
percent black girl audience. But I'm just joking. I'm just joking,
you know. I think we need more all male spaces.
It doesn't even exist anymore. And that like feminist will
like sue you if you try to create that kind
of stuff on a big scale, Like if you try
to create a business, you know, like a cigar bar
that's only for you know, guys, and then you'll get
feminists it'll sue you. It's it's just insane. V Scott
says to