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<v Speaker 1>I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekanana show.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm here with Thomas and building off of the episode

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<v Speaker 1>that we the Deviation episode from thirty the Thirty Years War,

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<v Speaker 1>in the same in the same subject matter, Thomas is

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<v Speaker 1>gonna jump in, so take it away, Thomas.

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<v Speaker 2>I wanted to talk about the relationship of the Third

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<v Speaker 2>Right to the Islamic World, specifically Palestine, and Palestine was

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<v Speaker 2>absolutely affiliated with the access powers in direct capacities, and

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<v Speaker 2>there is very good offices between the Fear and the

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<v Speaker 2>Grand Mufti ol Hussini, who, despite what propaganda and mainstream

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<v Speaker 2>history suggests he was a he came from a lineage

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<v Speaker 2>that very much had a claim to the manual of

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<v Speaker 2>leadership in Palestine and from a very proud lineage that

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<v Speaker 2>was and remains very respected among Palestinians across the sectarian divide,

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<v Speaker 2>Christian and Mauslim. In order to understand that relationship, though,

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<v Speaker 2>it's important to deal with the relations between the German

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<v Speaker 2>Reich in the Islamic World generally, and early on, the

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<v Speaker 2>Third Reich viewed the Islamic World not in reductionist terms,

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<v Speaker 2>but as very much a political force that had momentum

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<v Speaker 2>in the historical process. But that also was an important

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<v Speaker 2>ally to the cultivated in the war against Bullshevism and

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<v Speaker 2>Jewry as they viewed it. And this wasn't just pragmatic.

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<v Speaker 2>There was a basic affinity there with some qualifications, and

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<v Speaker 2>this is important. And it's impossible to talk about this

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<v Speaker 2>with people in interrational manner because they just go berserk

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<v Speaker 2>if you mentioned Islam. They've been that brainwashed. Some of

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<v Speaker 2>these people are just incredibly stupid, but you know, the

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<v Speaker 2>majority continues to take their cues from legacy media and

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<v Speaker 2>from regime ideologies. The only thing comparable to it is

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<v Speaker 2>people go utterly berserk if I attack the president. I

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<v Speaker 2>don't know what they think the president is doing for

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<v Speaker 2>them lately, or why they think he's in some incredible personage.

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<v Speaker 2>But you know, I'm not here to make friends or

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<v Speaker 2>to try and convert stupid people to make them intelligent

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<v Speaker 2>or reasonable. It's just you know, one of the reasons

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<v Speaker 2>I disdained social media is because it's impossible they have

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<v Speaker 2>serious conversations there because aside from the paid agitators and disruptors,

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<v Speaker 2>there's just this whole peanut gallery of idiots. You think

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<v Speaker 2>it's like a video game or something, and they've decided,

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<v Speaker 2>they've convinced themselves they have some take on everything, and

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<v Speaker 2>even though they spend their days like exclusively in their

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<v Speaker 2>own house or Walmart, they decided they have some take

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<v Speaker 2>on Islam where they have no understanding of it whatsoever.

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<v Speaker 2>So not just I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>very blessed there's anybody who spends time with capital t

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<v Speaker 2>traditionalists authors, you know Mercia Eliotti renegan on particularly because

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, obviously he was a Sufi Maslim, Julius evil.

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<v Speaker 2>They all rode extensive way on a dar al Islam

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<v Speaker 2>and Muhammad and his role in the historical process and

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<v Speaker 2>things like that, and obviously I've got a fair amount

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<v Speaker 2>of Mauslim comrades on the ground. Well, she and Sunny,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, we're both good friends and reliable partisans. But

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<v Speaker 2>who I can seek out to discuss compared to theology

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<v Speaker 2>within things. So I'm not suggesting I'm isolating in that regard.

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<v Speaker 2>It just it reaffirms why I am a vanguardist, because

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<v Speaker 2>most people aren't built for this in all kinds of ways,

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<v Speaker 2>and they don't even have their own prejudices. Their prejudices

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<v Speaker 2>are Jewish prejudices, or they're ones that you know they

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<v Speaker 2>gleaned from from legacy media apparatus, or or a fucking

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<v Speaker 2>around on the internet with the people who are probably

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<v Speaker 2>paid agitators, or like random guys in India or something

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<v Speaker 2>just saying things. It's it's like it's staggering to re

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<v Speaker 2>of ignorance. But anyway, I'll stop ranting at the subs.

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<v Speaker 2>The general disposition of the Reich towards Islam, the Islamic world,

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<v Speaker 2>Like I said, they viewed it as a global force

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<v Speaker 2>that was playing an essential role in the unfolding historical process.

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<v Speaker 2>They also predicted that although there wouldn't there wasn't going

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<v Speaker 2>to be the imminent orders of a new caliphate to

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<v Speaker 2>replace the Sea of Daryl Islam that obviously was vacated

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<v Speaker 2>by the collapse of the Ottomans. And to be clear

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<v Speaker 2>that the Kaiser Reich and the Ottoman Empire were very

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<v Speaker 2>close allies. So the Germans had a particularly the German

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<v Speaker 2>academ which had a very strong Orientalist bent, and the

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<v Speaker 2>Foreign service, many of whom remained into the Third Reich.

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<v Speaker 2>They had a fairly highly developed understanding of Islam and

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<v Speaker 2>of the several cultures that constituted. And obviously, as the

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<v Speaker 2>war went on, the non European territories that were directly

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<v Speaker 2>occupied by Wehrmacht were largely Islamic countries, and Sarajevo, which

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<v Speaker 2>is the seed of European Islam, was occupied by by

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<v Speaker 2>the Reich. So that's that's important. All these all these

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<v Speaker 2>variables were intertwined. And as I've written about in my manuscript,

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<v Speaker 2>and I believe I've discussed here with Pete previously, the massacres.

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<v Speaker 2>They it's the annihilation therapy that was perpetuated against minority

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<v Speaker 2>elements in the nascent Turkish state. The world came to

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<v Speaker 2>know about that owing to a maximum shooting a Richter

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<v Speaker 2>who was deployed there, and he alerted both the Red

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<v Speaker 2>Cross and the and and you know, the Berlin Foreign Office,

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<v Speaker 2>and he was told and on certain terms, to stop

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<v Speaker 2>agitating for some sort of localized intervention or relief for

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<v Speaker 2>these people, because relations with Ankara are very important, especially

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<v Speaker 2>in these times of uncertainty. And I make the point

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<v Speaker 2>that well, you know, and on shooting the rictor he

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<v Speaker 2>fell at the at the Munich pouch in November nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>twenty three, and Hitler what on record is saying that

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<v Speaker 2>he was the one. He said the party never recovered

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<v Speaker 2>from the death of shooting a rictor. He was an

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<v Speaker 2>essential personage to the National Socialist Party and the revolution.

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<v Speaker 2>And so I make the point in a manuscript. So

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<v Speaker 2>if if from inception the NSDAP was this hyper racialized,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, murderous conspiratorial cadre that simply hated all non

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<v Speaker 2>Rian races, why was Richter the only man who was

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<v Speaker 2>raising alarm about what was happening in an Asia minor?

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<v Speaker 2>Nobody seems to be able to answer that question for me.

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<v Speaker 2>They simply ignore it, or sam lying, or move on

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<v Speaker 2>without addressing it. But be as it may. The Third Reich,

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<v Speaker 2>although arguably there's the deepest sort of diplomatic rapport and

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<v Speaker 2>cultural rapport enjoyed with Daryl Islam, the other major Access

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<v Speaker 2>nations made similar efforts to curate and mobilize Islamic support.

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<v Speaker 2>Mussolini he famously, I mean, this was very performative and

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<v Speaker 2>very stage managed. But in nineteen thirty seven he arranged

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<v Speaker 2>for this ceremony where he was presented with a quote

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<v Speaker 2>sort of Islam at a public ceremony in Tripoli, symbolically

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<v Speaker 2>holding himself and the Kingdom of Italy out as a

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<v Speaker 2>as a as a protector of the Maslim world against

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<v Speaker 2>against communism, and he went on to declare that the

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<v Speaker 2>quote laws of the prophet would would be honored. Gebels

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<v Speaker 2>actually made a note of this, and his diaries prolific

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<v Speaker 2>as he was as a diary, it was one of

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<v Speaker 2>the reasons there's such a valuable artifact. He had kind

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<v Speaker 2>of a cynical take on this. He said, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the duche never never passes up an opportunity to glorify

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<v Speaker 2>himself as the protector of other people's you know, which

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<v Speaker 2>was which was true? And I don't I don't think

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<v Speaker 2>Duce had some deep affinity for his lom or spent

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<v Speaker 2>much time learning about its theological precepts. But it was imperative,

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<v Speaker 2>particularly considering the primary battle space that Italy was committed

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<v Speaker 2>to with that juncture, to try and curate the support

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<v Speaker 2>these people, or at least mitigate any hostility that might

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<v Speaker 2>be emergent otherwise. Similarly, the the Shintoist Japan, they established

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<v Speaker 2>the Greater Japan Islamic League and simultaneously the Tokyo Mosque

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<v Speaker 2>was established at nineteen thirty eight, and they very much

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<v Speaker 2>dedicated a lot of effort and resources, both military and

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<v Speaker 2>capital to encouraging in Islamic uprising against the Dutch, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>and radicalizing people in the in the Dutch Indies against them,

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<v Speaker 2>both the British and and the Midlanders. And like I

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<v Speaker 2>said this in the case of the right, this long

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<v Speaker 2>predated the national socialist revolution. The central powers, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>particularly the Kaiser right. The Ottoman Empire was an essential

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<v Speaker 2>ally theirs, and until they got knocked out of the war,

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<v Speaker 2>they played an essential role in allowing Germany to sustain

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<v Speaker 2>a two front conflict. There's so much emphasis on the

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<v Speaker 2>Western Front and the Maelstrom and slaughter that that represented.

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<v Speaker 2>There's not enough inc dedicated to the US Front of

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<v Speaker 2>World War One, where it wasn't the stalemate that it

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<v Speaker 2>came to pass in the West because the open step

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<v Speaker 2>precluded it and facilitated maneuver. Poison gas was used a

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<v Speaker 2>greater effect in in the East as well. And obviously

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<v Speaker 2>you know until the when when when the after the

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<v Speaker 2>Rustian Revolution, the the Reichs fail was victorious. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>that was one of the big soar points of the

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<v Speaker 2>of the military in the wake of Versailles is they

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<v Speaker 2>were forced to give up these territories that they won

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<v Speaker 2>on the battlefield. But you know, before an entire army

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<v Speaker 2>deployed to the east was freed up, you know, by

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<v Speaker 2>the Red Revolution and the Treaty of Breast the Tusk.

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<v Speaker 2>The Ottomans were playing an essential role in the Kaiser

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<v Speaker 2>rach Jews strategic flank. And Wilhelm, who was not any

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<v Speaker 2>kind of great diplomat or strategic thinker, he went out

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<v Speaker 2>of his way to sustain good offices with the Ottomans.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, whole Vegg was very much the political mind

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<v Speaker 2>behind the kaiser Reich. But the Kaiser himself, particularly in

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<v Speaker 2>dealing with you know, fellow monarchs, and uh make the mistake,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, the even in its waiting days, an Ottoman sultan,

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<v Speaker 2>that great authority, it was essential for it. Dictates and

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<v Speaker 2>declarations and as well as insinuations both subtle and flagrant,

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<v Speaker 2>come from the Kaiser himself. But you know, so Germanotoman authorities,

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<v Speaker 2>they collaborated and trying to cultivate Pan Islamic consciousness in

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<v Speaker 2>North Africa and the Near East and Russia and India.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, this was this was a long standing effort.

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<v Speaker 2>It's not just a question that emerged in nineteen thirty

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<v Speaker 2>nine and in in World War Two as the himnachs SS.

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<v Speaker 2>Even early on, as they found themselves deployed to Islamic lands,

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<v Speaker 2>German authorities were explicit that Islam was of political importance

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<v Speaker 2>and sold out and were instructed to respect religious customs

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<v Speaker 2>and show respect for Islam when dealing with Moslems, and

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<v Speaker 2>and to treat them as friendlies unless they you know,

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<v Speaker 2>he exhibited disrespect for the Reich. It's it's heraldry or

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<v Speaker 2>or for you know, the the personal honor a soldiers

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<v Speaker 2>and officers on the USC front. The uh, the Reich

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<v Speaker 2>one as far as they were, the re establishment of

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<v Speaker 2>mosques and madrasses, and they set aside pious endowments for

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<v Speaker 2>the re establishment of Islamic religious life. I mean they did.

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<v Speaker 2>They did the same thing with with Orthodox churches. But

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<v Speaker 2>I mean that goes up saying if you know the

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<v Speaker 2>history of the conflict and the political side of things,

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<v Speaker 2>but uh, you know, they this went a long way

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<v Speaker 2>to undermining the Soviet rule because Moslims were targeted with

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<v Speaker 2>as much hostility as as the Orthodox were, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>and Gurbles themselves made the point that the early Soviet

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<v Speaker 2>cadres in KVD and the Czech They they hated the

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<v Speaker 2>Moslems rethno sectarian reasons as much as they did the Christians,

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<v Speaker 2>and viewed them as their repressors and did incredibly brutal

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<v Speaker 2>things and tried to tried it, tried to extricate relateous

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<v Speaker 2>sensibility from Islamic communities. Vermunt authorities. Also, they're very much cultivated,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, the Ulama in Eastern territories and the Balkans especially,

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<v Speaker 2>That's how headway was made. And as Uh the Balkan

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<v Speaker 2>theater became this counterinsurgency quagmire that became very important. And

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<v Speaker 2>Ante Pavolch Poglovnik of the Independent State of Croatia, he

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<v Speaker 2>was raised in a town early in his life that

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<v Speaker 2>had a very large Maslim population. And Uh Pavolos himself,

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<v Speaker 2>he knew a lot about Islam and their rituals. There's

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<v Speaker 2>a photographs of him wearing a fez when he's meeting

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<v Speaker 2>with Bosniaks. It's very interesting and he he famously he

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<v Speaker 2>viewed Bosniaks as quote racial Croatians and Sunni Islam. Uh

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<v Speaker 2>was viewed as a state relied religion alongside Roman Catholicism,

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<v Speaker 2>albeit secondary secondarily to it. But that that that that

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<v Speaker 2>that sort of expedited this these efforts in the Balden Theater,

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<v Speaker 2>which would have been a lot more difficult if the

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<v Speaker 2>used to show was openly hostile to UH Bosnia populations

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<v Speaker 2>and UH the UH the vermackd and UH the buff

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<v Speaker 2>and SS they they granted a lot of religious freedom

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<v Speaker 2>to Moslim recruits and UH Moslim formations. The religious calendar

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<v Speaker 2>was taken into uh account dietary laws with respect to

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<v Speaker 2>you know, the mess hall and things. Both of Vermacht

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<v Speaker 2>and of off On SSS had emms service chaplains, and

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<v Speaker 2>they launched h ideological education programs to explicate how you know,

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<v Speaker 2>a Moslim should live as a national socialist, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>and what the meaning was of national socialism to non

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<v Speaker 2>Germanic yet Allied races. This was very, very detailed, whatever

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<v Speaker 2>if any whether anybody agrees with this or not, you know.

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<v Speaker 2>And these education programs were almost unfailingly delivered by by

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<v Speaker 2>military emams. The only times they weren't is when an

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<v Speaker 2>imam wasn't available, and Bosniak imams in particular played an

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<v Speaker 2>outsized role. Again, Sarah Jevo only about two million Moslims

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<v Speaker 2>lived in Sarajevo, but that's the European seed of Islam,

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<v Speaker 2>and UH. The way Moslims viewed it throughout the Moslim

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<v Speaker 2>diaspora was, you know, being being sort of the seed

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<v Speaker 2>of Islamic culture in Europe and also being very directly

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<v Speaker 2>threatened by by Communism. There was a peculiar interest in

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<v Speaker 2>the fortunes of the Bosniaks of Sarajevo and reciprocally pious Sunnis,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, pious UH, the Bosniak Sunnis. They they had

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<v Speaker 2>a strong interest in the fortunes of their coreligion is

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<v Speaker 2>you know, behind the they were still behind the verbial

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<v Speaker 2>wire in the Soviet Union and in UH in Palestine.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, the UH military formal military policy towards Islamic peoples,

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<v Speaker 2>and UH brought strategic terms. Really that policy paradigm first

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<v Speaker 2>originated on July twenty fifth, nineteen forty, just after the

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<v Speaker 2>fall of France, you know, and as the Battle of

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<v Speaker 2>Britain was getting underway, a man named Max van Oppenheim.

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<v Speaker 2>He was a retired diplomat and an Orientalist scholar. He

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<v Speaker 2>spontaneously sent a memorandum, a seven page memorandum to the

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<v Speaker 2>Foreign Office suggesting that it was both imperative to cultivate

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<v Speaker 2>the populations and the enemies Islamic territories and do everything

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<v Speaker 2>possible to incite a rebellion against the British authorities there,

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<v Speaker 2>and moving forward to give whatever military material, aid and

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<v Speaker 2>diplomatic encouragement as was reasonable and feasible, you know, And

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<v Speaker 2>he said if he said, the time is nigh for

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<v Speaker 2>a comprehensive strategy to mobilize the Islamic world against the

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<v Speaker 2>British Empire. But he said, also if the British have

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<v Speaker 2>time to consolidate forces and suppress a nascent rebellion, and

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<v Speaker 2>well meanwhile holding you know, German forces at bay in theater,

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<v Speaker 2>the opportunity will not repeat. He's also Oppenheim who'd spent

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<v Speaker 2>most of his adult life traveling, and he is traveling

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<v Speaker 2>and living in the Islamic world. He'd reached out directly

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<v Speaker 2>as a private person since his retirement. He was in

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<v Speaker 2>his early eighties. I believe to pan Islamic religious figures

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<v Speaker 2>like Shakib Arslan and more most significantly to the Grand

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<v Speaker 2>Mufti aminel Hussini, and they became very close and largely

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<v Speaker 2>at Oppenneim's be hast. Hitler, who had a somewhat tempestuous

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<v Speaker 2>relationship with the Foreign Office, he took this seriously and

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<v Speaker 2>German officers were deployed to the entire Moslim corridor where

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<v Speaker 2>there was a British imperial presence from Egypt to India.

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<v Speaker 2>And of course subsequently the Grand moved Yea Lucenia was

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<v Speaker 2>able to gain a personal audience of the Hitler, and

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<v Speaker 2>we'll get to that, but this was the this was

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<v Speaker 2>the origin of what became a a strategic imperative in

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<v Speaker 2>political and military terms. I mean, that's important for its

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<v Speaker 2>own sake, but also the Ribbontrop's other cast is some

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<v Speaker 2>sort of fool or an incompetant, or the foreign officers

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<v Speaker 2>cast is in the same sort of terms as the

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<v Speaker 2>app there as this sort of a positive a fifth columnists.

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<v Speaker 2>And Hitler's cast is this provincial nationalist who didn't understand

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<v Speaker 2>the felt politique. I mean, all that is ridiculous. And

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<v Speaker 2>this the relationship of the Reich to the Islamic world

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<v Speaker 2>in particulars stands in a rebuttal to that inference. And

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<v Speaker 2>so this is an important subject matter for that reason.

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<v Speaker 2>And Oppenheim he he'd served in the kaiser Reich for

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<v Speaker 2>decades and there's few people then living who knew as

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<v Speaker 2>much about Islam and Islamic societies as he did, and

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<v Speaker 2>more than any one man, he was responsible for shaping

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<v Speaker 2>the Kaiser's disposition towards Islam generally. He was trained as

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<v Speaker 2>a lawyer. By education, he'd become fluent in several Middle

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<v Speaker 2>Eastern languages, including you know, various Arab dialects, as well

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<v Speaker 2>as Turkish. He traveled for years through Africa and the

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<v Speaker 2>Middle East, and in eighteen ninety six when he was

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<v Speaker 2>officially recruited by the Foreign Office, he subsequently posted for

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<v Speaker 2>twelve years in Cairo, where he directly monitored political developments

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<v Speaker 2>and cultivated and enduring relationships with Arab in Islamic leadership.

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<v Speaker 2>In Sudan during the Mahdi rebellion, he'd been on the

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<v Speaker 2>ground there and what he attested to in subsequent years

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<v Speaker 2>was that's when he first encountered is Lam as a

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<v Speaker 2>political force. He always understood the deeply integral structure of

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<v Speaker 2>Islam and conceptual terms, but this had all been at

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<v Speaker 2>stress act or academic until this point. In Sudan, he

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<v Speaker 2>came to realize that Islam had a strong role to

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<v Speaker 2>play in the Burgening political process, that it had an

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<v Speaker 2>ability to animate pious elements towards direct military action, and

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<v Speaker 2>therein it was a force multiplier, And that there is

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<v Speaker 2>a peculiar interplay of deep theology and political and military

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<v Speaker 2>imperatives in the Islamic world, and the Western power that

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<v Speaker 2>could integrate that into its own political soldiery would carry

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<v Speaker 2>the day in theater, and he he'd been able to

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<v Speaker 2>gain Oppenheim, had he'd been able to gain audiences with

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<v Speaker 2>the Ottoman Sultan, with a number of other luminaries, both

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00:30:18.079 --> 00:30:21.640
<v Speaker 2>reactionaries and reformers. What they were hold in common was

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<v Speaker 2>a belief and advocacy of the pan Islamic cause in

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<v Speaker 2>lieu of this sort of narrow ethno nationalism that was

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<v Speaker 2>still characteristic in the colonized world in substantial measure. And

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<v Speaker 2>Oppenheim's dispatches were delivered personally to the Kaiser, who basically

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<v Speaker 2>viewed them as gospel in terms of how to proceed

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<v Speaker 2>in the Near East and North Africa. And the Kaiser Wilhelm,

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<v Speaker 2>for all of his shortcomings, was for myriad and he

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<v Speaker 2>was in many respects. The Reich was unfortunately saddled with him,

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<v Speaker 2>he did delegate to experts. The other reason Halvegg subsequently

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<v Speaker 2>had the sort of power he did, and on matters

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<v Speaker 2>relating to h Veldt politique, the Kaiser tended to defer

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<v Speaker 2>to people he viewed as the experts. And that's very Prussian.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's why, despite Germany not having a global profile

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<v Speaker 2>in terms of directly colonies in the way that the

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<v Speaker 2>United Kingdom or France, or the Spanish or the Portuguese did,

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00:32:09.000 --> 00:32:18.359
<v Speaker 2>they tend to do do very well at at cultivating

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<v Speaker 2>allies in the developing world. And this went some of

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<v Speaker 2>this was and we'll get into this in our Thirty

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<v Speaker 2>Years War series. Isn't a side I want to cover

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<v Speaker 2>this one I'm about to discuss as well as the

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<v Speaker 2>sort of proxy war that was going on in Japan

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<v Speaker 2>during the Thirty Years War between the Catholics and specifically

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<v Speaker 2>Dutch Reformed elements. But the the Ottomans had granted asylum

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<v Speaker 2>to Protestants, both Lutheran and Reformed, who were either refugees

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<v Speaker 2>of hostilities in the thirties War or were wanted by

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<v Speaker 2>the Inquisition, and a sort of cultural rapport developed between

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<v Speaker 2>Protestant Germany and Sunni Islam, and I think that that's

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<v Speaker 2>something that's understated and a lot of these otherwise very

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00:33:29.160 --> 00:33:39.559
<v Speaker 2>complete accounts of the subject matter, but even limited as

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00:33:39.599 --> 00:33:47.039
<v Speaker 2>the Kaiser rex colonial profile was, the Kaiser right did

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<v Speaker 2>in the colonies that did have rule over did rule

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<v Speaker 2>over Islamic populations in Togo and Cameroon, in Germany east

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<v Speaker 2>to Africa now and maybe a you know, and obviously

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00:34:06.279 --> 00:34:10.480
<v Speaker 2>it was far easier. I mean, I mean, Africans are

340
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<v Speaker 2>subterre and Africans are are just challenges to managing those

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00:34:16.199 --> 00:34:22.039
<v Speaker 2>populations just because of profound alienage. It's it's obviously, but

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<v Speaker 2>the colonial authorities obviously found it easier to deal with

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<v Speaker 2>Islamic elements than pagan ones who ascribed to some sort

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00:34:34.239 --> 00:34:42.599
<v Speaker 2>of folk animism or something, and from the outset curated

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00:34:44.159 --> 00:34:49.480
<v Speaker 2>good offices with Islamic elements in these territories, and local

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00:34:49.559 --> 00:34:55.079
<v Speaker 2>Islamic structures weren't disturbed so long as Muslim leaders accepted

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<v Speaker 2>the colonial presence. In German Africa, sharia kor it's recognized

348
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<v Speaker 2>Islamic endowments were we weren't touched or text madrasas were

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<v Speaker 2>left open, religious holidays were acknowledged, and the Germans. Uh. Wisely,

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00:35:18.599 --> 00:35:23.960
<v Speaker 2>they ruled through Maslim intermediaries and Islamic dignitaries. You weren't

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<v Speaker 2>generally going to be visited in your township by some

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<v Speaker 2>by by by a white man or a German colonial administrator,

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00:35:33.400 --> 00:35:40.639
<v Speaker 2>and it'd be an African Maslim intermediary or a respected

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<v Speaker 2>man in in in the local mosque who you deal with,

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00:35:45.679 --> 00:35:51.519
<v Speaker 2>and he in turn to deal with the Germans. And

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00:35:51.599 --> 00:35:59.280
<v Speaker 2>on the one hand this left colonial governor somewhat isolated.

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<v Speaker 2>But on the other hand, it also meant that these

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00:36:02.800 --> 00:36:06.840
<v Speaker 2>intermediaries they had the might of you know, the Kaiser

359
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<v Speaker 2>right behind them an event of an uprising, So indirect

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00:36:11.599 --> 00:36:18.679
<v Speaker 2>rule was highly effective. And that it's not discussed enough

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<v Speaker 2>that again, in comparative terms, limited as the German colonial

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<v Speaker 2>profile and experience was, it very much was a school

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<v Speaker 2>of a political rule, you know, and a high political intrigue,

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<v Speaker 2>and they were very good at it. And I think

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<v Speaker 2>that's uh. I think I think that's not often enough acknowledged,

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<v Speaker 2>other than in very perfunctory terms. And this also led

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<v Speaker 2>to as these kinds of colonial as more and more

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<v Speaker 2>business was done in the colonies and as a geostrategic

369
00:37:07.599 --> 00:37:12.599
<v Speaker 2>imperative developed around the German presence therapy. There was more

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<v Speaker 2>and more of these sort of colonial congresses formal and

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<v Speaker 2>informal between military and political and business authorities within the

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<v Speaker 2>Kaiser Reich. This led to the development of a a

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<v Speaker 2>cadre of experts in Islamic studies in German academ and

374
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<v Speaker 2>there was always a streak of Orientalism in modern German

375
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<v Speaker 2>academ anyway, but these guys who previously really only were

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<v Speaker 2>focused on classical Islam and you know, the their relations

377
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<v Speaker 2>with the Greeks and things, they shifted their conceptual focus

378
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<v Speaker 2>very much, I think the contemporary Moslim world and what

379
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<v Speaker 2>a proper imperial policy should be towards Islam qua Islam,

380
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<v Speaker 2>and there really wasn't something comparable in the UK or France.

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<v Speaker 2>There was philology type stuff, and you know, obviously a

382
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<v Speaker 2>very advanced cultural anthropology, but a kind of political science

383
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<v Speaker 2>of how European Christiandom should index with Islam and power

384
00:38:57.679 --> 00:39:03.559
<v Speaker 2>political capacities that was pretty much exclusive to the Reich.

385
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<v Speaker 2>There was a German Colonial Institute formally established. One of

386
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<v Speaker 2>their big luminaries was a guy named Karl Heinrich Becker,

387
00:39:26.719 --> 00:39:31.159
<v Speaker 2>and a couple of his colleagues Martin Hartman and D. D. Vestermann.

388
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<v Speaker 2>Becker was was centered in Hamburg, Hartman and Vestman in Berlin.

389
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<v Speaker 2>They placed themselves in their faculty at the full disposal

390
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<v Speaker 2>of the German Empire, and the entirety of their labors

391
00:39:58.079 --> 00:40:06.280
<v Speaker 2>and their endowment was put in the service of investigating

392
00:40:06.960 --> 00:40:10.280
<v Speaker 2>and studying Islam, and the colony is accumulating knowledge on

393
00:40:12.360 --> 00:40:22.679
<v Speaker 2>its spread, historical, contemporary, its impact on power political affairs.

394
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<v Speaker 2>There was these massive surveys undertaken by Becker, Hartman Investorman

395
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<v Speaker 2>in ninety six, ninety eleven, in ninety thirteen respectively, which

396
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<v Speaker 2>were then submitted to the Kaiser, through the Colonial Institute,

397
00:40:44.159 --> 00:40:50.480
<v Speaker 2>to the Foreign Office onward to the Kaiser, and this

398
00:40:50.599 --> 00:40:57.119
<v Speaker 2>became a you know, viewed as power political dogma in

399
00:40:57.199 --> 00:41:01.480
<v Speaker 2>terms of how to proceed in in policy terms, both

400
00:41:02.639 --> 00:41:10.800
<v Speaker 2>formally and you know, the Low Board, the German Society

401
00:41:10.840 --> 00:41:16.039
<v Speaker 2>for the Study of Islam, it published a periodical Defelt

402
00:41:16.119 --> 00:41:25.519
<v Speaker 2>the Islams the World of Islam, and that became regarded

403
00:41:26.320 --> 00:41:34.760
<v Speaker 2>as the seminal European academic journal on on contemporary Islamic

404
00:41:35.440 --> 00:41:43.400
<v Speaker 2>faith and practice and politics. And you know, most people too,

405
00:41:47.480 --> 00:41:52.320
<v Speaker 2>even in the UK, which opposedly is full of these

406
00:41:52.360 --> 00:41:56.800
<v Speaker 2>you know, progressives and people who have a saying progressives

407
00:41:56.800 --> 00:42:00.239
<v Speaker 2>and know what they're talking aboutbviously don't. But it'saracter i

408
00:42:00.360 --> 00:42:04.039
<v Speaker 2>supposedly by this this sort of progressive sensibility an academ

409
00:42:04.079 --> 00:42:08.000
<v Speaker 2>and then on the other hand, these sort of Machiavelian

410
00:42:08.079 --> 00:42:14.400
<v Speaker 2>types of a deep understanding of alien cultures and how

411
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<v Speaker 2>to establish and maintain power. They're in most of the

412
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<v Speaker 2>most of these German experts, their counterparts, they they just

413
00:42:25.239 --> 00:42:29.679
<v Speaker 2>looked at, uh, you know, indigenous religions, whether they actually

414
00:42:29.760 --> 00:42:33.800
<v Speaker 2>were savage, you know, forms of animism or paganism, and

415
00:42:33.880 --> 00:42:37.039
<v Speaker 2>is Lam is just so much you know, so much

416
00:42:37.119 --> 00:42:44.400
<v Speaker 2>nonsense or something you know, primitive. It was, Uh, it

417
00:42:44.519 --> 00:42:51.840
<v Speaker 2>was these German philologists and cultural studies types and orientalists

418
00:42:53.679 --> 00:43:00.360
<v Speaker 2>who you know, emphasize with the Kaiser and demonstrated within

419
00:43:01.519 --> 00:43:05.559
<v Speaker 2>and without of their own cuts or to academ you know. Look,

420
00:43:05.679 --> 00:43:14.760
<v Speaker 2>this is Islam is a a formative civilizing element. The

421
00:43:14.960 --> 00:43:20.840
<v Speaker 2>uh higher races within Daryl Islam, if you'll allow the

422
00:43:20.840 --> 00:43:30.360
<v Speaker 2>descriptor produce extraordinarily high culture. And Islam is brought millions

423
00:43:30.440 --> 00:43:34.880
<v Speaker 2>by millions of people out of ignorance and savagery and

424
00:43:34.960 --> 00:43:40.639
<v Speaker 2>even if one doesn't accept that it's a singular power,

425
00:43:40.639 --> 00:43:46.079
<v Speaker 2>political force that is playing an essential role in the

426
00:43:46.119 --> 00:43:50.800
<v Speaker 2>political process underway in the then nast in twentieth century.

427
00:43:51.079 --> 00:43:57.679
<v Speaker 2>And to be clear, you know, this is when Christianity

428
00:43:57.760 --> 00:44:03.480
<v Speaker 2>was under full assault by the Communists, and it was

429
00:44:03.679 --> 00:44:08.719
<v Speaker 2>uh when this, however, can try to me have been

430
00:44:09.280 --> 00:44:15.199
<v Speaker 2>this enforced secularism reigned throughout the Western world. That's one

431
00:44:15.199 --> 00:44:19.639
<v Speaker 2>of the things that set the stage for the Bolshevik Revolution.

432
00:44:20.719 --> 00:44:29.440
<v Speaker 2>You know. So Islam is this catalyzing element really stood

433
00:44:29.480 --> 00:44:33.119
<v Speaker 2>alone among world religions. I mean, don't get me wrong,

434
00:44:33.280 --> 00:44:39.440
<v Speaker 2>I there was, there was pious Christians who are quite

435
00:44:39.440 --> 00:44:45.920
<v Speaker 2>literally waging a holy war against the Communists. And I yes,

436
00:44:46.039 --> 00:44:50.280
<v Speaker 2>I believe in in symbolic psychological terms and anthropological terms

437
00:44:51.239 --> 00:44:56.760
<v Speaker 2>that all politics is essentially theological. But I'm talking in

438
00:44:56.840 --> 00:45:08.559
<v Speaker 2>terms of conscious religious practice and the ability of religious

439
00:45:08.559 --> 00:45:15.679
<v Speaker 2>imperatives to anime political affairs. In the early twentieth century,

440
00:45:15.880 --> 00:45:19.719
<v Speaker 2>Islam really stood alone in that capacity at global scale.

441
00:45:20.320 --> 00:45:24.760
<v Speaker 2>That's what I'm talking about. For clarity, and that this

442
00:45:24.960 --> 00:45:33.960
<v Speaker 2>was not lost obviously on these these people that were

443
00:45:33.960 --> 00:45:48.559
<v Speaker 2>talking about probably the best known political theorists who devised

444
00:45:48.559 --> 00:45:53.039
<v Speaker 2>a practice of imperial rules of the Islam was Karl

445
00:45:53.079 --> 00:46:01.079
<v Speaker 2>Heinrich Becker. He emphasized again and again he said Islam wasn't,

446
00:46:01.239 --> 00:46:05.400
<v Speaker 2>as the British claim, a threat to colonial government. He said,

447
00:46:05.400 --> 00:46:08.239
<v Speaker 2>not only is it not a threat, but that it

448
00:46:08.400 --> 00:46:12.760
<v Speaker 2>should and can be used to bolster imperial rule and

449
00:46:12.840 --> 00:46:20.519
<v Speaker 2>to guarantee peace stability in public order. He said that

450
00:46:21.679 --> 00:46:28.760
<v Speaker 2>the main reason why the white Western powers were coming

451
00:46:28.760 --> 00:46:34.320
<v Speaker 2>into hostile contact with Islamic cultures was because they were

452
00:46:34.320 --> 00:46:39.920
<v Speaker 2>either treating Moslim populations like they were animatester pagan savages,

453
00:46:41.039 --> 00:46:48.559
<v Speaker 2>or they were viewing observance of Islamic practice as somehow

454
00:46:48.599 --> 00:47:00.760
<v Speaker 2>inherently subversive, you know, And that integral aspect of Islam

455
00:47:00.840 --> 00:47:06.320
<v Speaker 2>not only did it render it an essential, essentially political

456
00:47:07.519 --> 00:47:14.559
<v Speaker 2>confession in a way that other face or not, but

457
00:47:14.880 --> 00:47:23.280
<v Speaker 2>it also meant that to attack any aspect of its

458
00:47:23.320 --> 00:47:32.400
<v Speaker 2>observance was to attack every aspect of the reigning way

459
00:47:32.440 --> 00:47:42.119
<v Speaker 2>of life in theater. And this wasn't a minority opinion

460
00:47:43.000 --> 00:47:49.559
<v Speaker 2>among the German colonial authorities, both political, diplomatic and military.

461
00:47:50.320 --> 00:47:56.960
<v Speaker 2>German colonial officers didn't have a hostile disposition towards Islam,

462
00:47:58.000 --> 00:48:04.719
<v Speaker 2>and they correctly viewed the anti imperialist elements and the

463
00:48:04.760 --> 00:48:09.480
<v Speaker 2>pro communist elements in theater that claimed to be Pan Islamic.

464
00:48:10.920 --> 00:48:17.599
<v Speaker 2>They weren't really because the two. It was an irreconcilable Veltisham.

465
00:48:19.000 --> 00:48:28.400
<v Speaker 2>There was superficially Islamist language in Moscow's propaganda as well

466
00:48:28.440 --> 00:48:39.639
<v Speaker 2>as within some of these anti colonial ideological subcultures, but

467
00:48:40.000 --> 00:48:46.840
<v Speaker 2>there was no depth to it. Johann von Leers, and

468
00:48:46.840 --> 00:48:54.519
<v Speaker 2>we'll get into him next episode. He's a lesser known

469
00:48:56.039 --> 00:48:59.679
<v Speaker 2>personage within the Third Reich, and it was an essential

470
00:49:01.159 --> 00:49:05.360
<v Speaker 2>personator to the to the to the national Insulti's resistance

471
00:49:05.360 --> 00:49:07.360
<v Speaker 2>of the dead defeat. I hold him in great esteem.

472
00:49:07.440 --> 00:49:13.760
<v Speaker 2>But he correctly recognized Islam's not reactionary. In fact, it

473
00:49:15.079 --> 00:49:21.119
<v Speaker 2>tends towards a revolutionary paradigm, but it is socially conservative

474
00:49:22.199 --> 00:49:35.400
<v Speaker 2>in in terms of its view of authority. And a

475
00:49:35.400 --> 00:49:43.320
<v Speaker 2>assaultant or a king, or a colonial governor or a

476
00:49:43.320 --> 00:49:47.599
<v Speaker 2>procurator or or an occupying in general, even if he

477
00:49:47.679 --> 00:49:51.280
<v Speaker 2>himself is not of the faith and not of your people,

478
00:49:52.000 --> 00:49:58.320
<v Speaker 2>if he protects Islam from its enemies and allows the

479
00:49:58.320 --> 00:50:03.039
<v Speaker 2>free observance of Islam, you were obligated as a good

480
00:50:03.119 --> 00:50:21.440
<v Speaker 2>Moslem to not revolt against him. For example, Wilhelm went

481
00:50:21.480 --> 00:50:26.159
<v Speaker 2>as far as he in the autumn eighteen ninety eight,

482
00:50:28.679 --> 00:50:35.599
<v Speaker 2>he the Kaiser went on a tour of the German

483
00:50:35.679 --> 00:50:38.960
<v Speaker 2>colonies and of the Holy Land and the Middle East generally,

484
00:50:39.960 --> 00:50:49.320
<v Speaker 2>and he visited Damascus specifically to visit the tomb of Salhadeen,

485
00:50:50.599 --> 00:50:56.360
<v Speaker 2>and he gave a speech to all these you know,

486
00:50:56.800 --> 00:51:01.840
<v Speaker 2>assembled masses of people where he declared himself to be

487
00:51:01.880 --> 00:51:05.280
<v Speaker 2>a friend of his lab and the German Empire, to

488
00:51:05.320 --> 00:51:10.719
<v Speaker 2>be a friend of Islam and of quote the world's

489
00:51:10.719 --> 00:51:18.960
<v Speaker 2>three hundred million Mohammedians, you know, to give you an

490
00:51:19.000 --> 00:51:27.239
<v Speaker 2>idea of the priority that Berlin put on the cultivation

491
00:51:27.320 --> 00:51:36.119
<v Speaker 2>of this relationship. It wasn't just a minor consideration emergent

492
00:51:36.280 --> 00:51:40.519
<v Speaker 2>in the Foreign Office or or something that Colonial Office

493
00:51:40.679 --> 00:51:47.000
<v Speaker 2>officers posted in theater. You know, we're we're we're trying

494
00:51:47.000 --> 00:51:53.440
<v Speaker 2>to force the Kaiser and the government to take notice

495
00:51:53.480 --> 00:52:02.239
<v Speaker 2>of you know, and uh, this paid uh, this, this,

496
00:52:02.239 --> 00:52:05.719
<v Speaker 2>this paid dividends. I mean not you know again, not

497
00:52:05.760 --> 00:52:11.760
<v Speaker 2>only uh did it maintain good offices with the Ottomans,

498
00:52:11.800 --> 00:52:14.199
<v Speaker 2>who were in real trouble then, but who were an

499
00:52:14.239 --> 00:52:19.760
<v Speaker 2>essentral ally you know, within the boundar rationality of the

500
00:52:19.760 --> 00:52:29.440
<v Speaker 2>power political paradigm that you know, reached critical Zenas in

501
00:52:29.519 --> 00:52:37.679
<v Speaker 2>ninety fourteen. But there there was an enduring affinity between

502
00:52:38.960 --> 00:52:42.800
<v Speaker 2>the Reich, the German people, and Dar Al Islam that

503
00:52:42.880 --> 00:52:45.400
<v Speaker 2>endured through the Cold War. In my opinion, you know,

504
00:52:45.440 --> 00:52:49.559
<v Speaker 2>it was uh, this is a bit of a tangent,

505
00:52:49.719 --> 00:52:55.280
<v Speaker 2>but you know, the only the only Marxist Leninist Arab

506
00:52:55.440 --> 00:53:01.119
<v Speaker 2>state was South Yemen, and it was a cadre of

507
00:53:01.199 --> 00:53:09.960
<v Speaker 2>East Germans who really were the intermediary between the Warsaw Pact,

508
00:53:10.079 --> 00:53:17.719
<v Speaker 2>the East Bloc and and and the uh, the indigenous

509
00:53:17.760 --> 00:53:29.360
<v Speaker 2>Arabs there that uh the book uh John Kuhler is

510
00:53:29.400 --> 00:53:35.639
<v Speaker 2>this uh cold war State department guy. He wrote a

511
00:53:35.639 --> 00:53:38.000
<v Speaker 2>really interesting book on the Stazi. I mean, he's very

512
00:53:38.079 --> 00:53:44.440
<v Speaker 2>much a a pro regime kind of guy, cold warrior type.

513
00:53:44.480 --> 00:53:46.559
<v Speaker 2>But he and I believe he was probably like a

514
00:53:46.599 --> 00:53:49.559
<v Speaker 2>lot of State Department people. I think he was probably

515
00:53:50.239 --> 00:53:57.719
<v Speaker 2>an intelligence guy under diplomatic cover. But he, uh, he

516
00:53:57.760 --> 00:54:03.039
<v Speaker 2>wrote about the the Stazi, the National Folks Armies presence

517
00:54:03.119 --> 00:54:07.079
<v Speaker 2>in Yemen. You know, he tried to cast as Pejoritaly

518
00:54:07.119 --> 00:54:10.559
<v Speaker 2>as possible, you know, suggesting that you know, all these

519
00:54:11.079 --> 00:54:14.440
<v Speaker 2>these these Germans swearing around like colonial overlords. It's like, well,

520
00:54:14.480 --> 00:54:18.480
<v Speaker 2>any they're doing something right that the yemen the Yemenis

521
00:54:18.519 --> 00:54:21.440
<v Speaker 2>didn't didn't open fire on him instead of packing. I mean,

522
00:54:21.480 --> 00:54:27.840
<v Speaker 2>I and the Yemen's aren't exactly the people who who

523
00:54:27.960 --> 00:54:32.360
<v Speaker 2>take a knee for others, just because you know, if anything,

524
00:54:32.400 --> 00:54:38.119
<v Speaker 2>there as uh impossible to govern as the past tunes

525
00:54:38.119 --> 00:54:41.119
<v Speaker 2>and they it was it was the DDR that really

526
00:54:41.119 --> 00:54:45.280
<v Speaker 2>sold him on the idea of a Stalinism. I mean,

527
00:54:45.639 --> 00:54:53.360
<v Speaker 2>there's South South Yemen. There there's a confusing pastiche of

528
00:54:53.360 --> 00:54:58.039
<v Speaker 2>of of of political intrigues in Yemen. But I mean, obviously,

529
00:54:58.119 --> 00:55:01.559
<v Speaker 2>and I'm not suggesting that the soul or even the

530
00:55:01.559 --> 00:55:05.159
<v Speaker 2>primary approximate cause of them aligned with the East Block

531
00:55:05.320 --> 00:55:11.599
<v Speaker 2>was East German persuasiveness or intrigues. But interestingly they're one

532
00:55:11.639 --> 00:55:16.519
<v Speaker 2>of the one of the Yemeny militias today in the

533
00:55:16.559 --> 00:55:19.960
<v Speaker 2>south of the country. They ride under the flag of

534
00:55:20.039 --> 00:55:26.920
<v Speaker 2>South Yemen, you know, uh and they claim uh at

535
00:55:27.119 --> 00:55:33.400
<v Speaker 2>Drake lineage to that polity, you know. So it's that

536
00:55:33.480 --> 00:55:40.719
<v Speaker 2>there's something there, but yeah, that I think that should

537
00:55:40.719 --> 00:55:43.239
<v Speaker 2>be adequate foundation. Man, there's still there's a couple other

538
00:55:44.760 --> 00:55:52.280
<v Speaker 2>authors I want to get into relating to the Orientalists

539
00:55:52.360 --> 00:55:55.320
<v Speaker 2>academic culture and in the Kaiser reag and then later

540
00:55:55.400 --> 00:56:03.840
<v Speaker 2>the Third Reich and the impact that had on conceptual matters.

541
00:56:04.159 --> 00:56:07.880
<v Speaker 2>But I want to get into the Grand Moftiel Hussini

542
00:56:07.920 --> 00:56:15.000
<v Speaker 2>and Palestine and it's status as an access element and things,

543
00:56:15.039 --> 00:56:17.199
<v Speaker 2>and then I promise after that we'll get back to

544
00:56:17.239 --> 00:56:19.559
<v Speaker 2>the Thirty Years War. But this is important then, it's

545
00:56:19.599 --> 00:56:21.400
<v Speaker 2>it's particularly timely in my opinion.

546
00:56:22.719 --> 00:56:25.880
<v Speaker 1>Okay, do you think you're gonna be able to talk

547
00:56:25.880 --> 00:56:29.559
<v Speaker 1>about the ground Moftie and Ben von Leers in one episode?

548
00:56:29.719 --> 00:56:31.840
<v Speaker 1>Or is this possibly going to be three?

549
00:56:32.440 --> 00:56:34.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? They might go three, but I'll see what I

550
00:56:34.360 --> 00:56:36.920
<v Speaker 2>can do. I'll try and expedite it.

551
00:56:37.480 --> 00:56:40.840
<v Speaker 1>Well, don't yeah, don't leave anything out just to uh,

552
00:56:41.159 --> 00:56:43.719
<v Speaker 1>you know, we can do three episodes. That'll be perfectly fun.

553
00:56:44.239 --> 00:56:47.679
<v Speaker 2>Okay, Yeah, thanks for hosting me.

554
00:56:48.199 --> 00:56:51.639
<v Speaker 1>Of course, always head on over at Thomas A substack

555
00:56:51.960 --> 00:56:55.320
<v Speaker 1>real Thomas seven to seven seven dot substack dot com

556
00:56:55.960 --> 00:57:01.159
<v Speaker 1>and his website is Thomas tom seven to seven seven

557
00:57:01.239 --> 00:57:04.920
<v Speaker 1>dot com. The t is a seven and you can

558
00:57:04.920 --> 00:57:07.920
<v Speaker 1>connect to everything from either one of those places. And

559
00:57:07.960 --> 00:57:09.559
<v Speaker 1>if you want to try and find him on X

560
00:57:09.599 --> 00:57:14.719
<v Speaker 1>where where you know, his account could be gone one

561
00:57:14.800 --> 00:57:18.960
<v Speaker 1>day and back the next constantly.

562
00:57:19.360 --> 00:57:20.960
<v Speaker 2>I mean X is an ex as a total pile

563
00:57:21.000 --> 00:57:24.000
<v Speaker 2>of ship like it, like it really is. I I

564
00:57:24.000 --> 00:57:26.639
<v Speaker 2>I'm not trying to play murder, but I only maintain

565
00:57:26.679 --> 00:57:30.320
<v Speaker 2>an account there because people for some reason can't move

566
00:57:30.400 --> 00:57:33.239
<v Speaker 2>on from it. And it's it's kind of the one

567
00:57:33.280 --> 00:57:37.480
<v Speaker 2>stuff place, the index of people and stuff.

568
00:57:39.039 --> 00:57:42.280
<v Speaker 1>As a kid say, as a kid say, or used

569
00:57:42.320 --> 00:57:45.599
<v Speaker 1>to say this, this phrase is probably uh played out

570
00:57:45.599 --> 00:57:47.559
<v Speaker 1>by now. It's really fake and gay.

571
00:57:48.199 --> 00:57:51.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah it's garbage. It's garbage, and yeah it's fake and

572
00:57:52.000 --> 00:57:52.639
<v Speaker 2>gay as well.

573
00:57:53.800 --> 00:57:55.400
<v Speaker 1>All right, Thomas taking a couple of days.

574
00:57:55.440 --> 00:57:55.760
<v Speaker 2>Thank you.

575
00:57:57.719 --> 00:58:00.000
<v Speaker 1>I want to welcome everyone back to the Peakingiana Show.

576
00:58:00.480 --> 00:58:05.679
<v Speaker 1>Thomas is back for part two, talking about the relationship

577
00:58:05.760 --> 00:58:11.599
<v Speaker 1>between Islam and not only the Third Reich, but you

578
00:58:11.639 --> 00:58:14.199
<v Speaker 1>know you talked about the Kaiser years in the first part,

579
00:58:14.280 --> 00:58:15.559
<v Speaker 1>so jump right in.

580
00:58:17.039 --> 00:58:22.199
<v Speaker 2>Thanks. Yeah. And subsequently, I at least want to dedicate

581
00:58:22.199 --> 00:58:29.519
<v Speaker 2>a brief addendum to discussing the post war resistance in

582
00:58:29.559 --> 00:58:37.559
<v Speaker 2>exile and how that dovetailed with the cause of Palestinian

583
00:58:37.599 --> 00:58:42.320
<v Speaker 2>liberation and Pan Islamic consciousness generally. I think we got

584
00:58:42.360 --> 00:58:49.679
<v Speaker 2>into some of that. When we were talking about the

585
00:58:49.679 --> 00:58:54.519
<v Speaker 2>post war diaster of National Socialists in exile, we were

586
00:58:54.559 --> 00:59:00.320
<v Speaker 2>talking about how der Veg with Johann von Weir's as

587
00:59:00.320 --> 00:59:04.719
<v Speaker 2>well as Otto Rimer and Hans Rudel, was a major

588
00:59:06.079 --> 00:59:08.880
<v Speaker 2>contributor to both in terms of his work product and

589
00:59:09.840 --> 00:59:15.880
<v Speaker 2>capital investment. And when Argentina was no longer a friendly

590
00:59:16.239 --> 00:59:19.880
<v Speaker 2>environment for that sort of partisan activity owing to Perone

591
00:59:19.880 --> 00:59:26.000
<v Speaker 2>being forced out of office, Von Leers made his way

592
00:59:26.039 --> 00:59:31.840
<v Speaker 2>to the Court of Nasser, and Egypt and Syria in

593
00:59:31.880 --> 00:59:37.880
<v Speaker 2>particular were very much the loci of that kind of

594
00:59:37.920 --> 00:59:46.599
<v Speaker 2>partisan activity, and that's significant because that plays into the

595
00:59:47.199 --> 00:59:53.320
<v Speaker 2>not just the military culture of the region on the

596
00:59:53.559 --> 01:00:00.159
<v Speaker 2>Arab side, many of whom were trained by for or

597
01:00:00.480 --> 01:00:08.039
<v Speaker 2>National Socialists and Behrmax veterans, but also it impacted the

598
01:00:08.079 --> 01:00:12.920
<v Speaker 2>culture of resistance in profound ways, and that's something that's overlooked.

599
01:00:13.199 --> 01:00:18.920
<v Speaker 2>And we talked a bit about the odd dialectics of

600
01:00:20.760 --> 01:00:27.159
<v Speaker 2>the DDR and the Rote Army fraction and Horse de Mahler. Obviously,

601
01:00:28.960 --> 01:00:31.000
<v Speaker 2>the element he was representing when he was on the

602
01:00:31.000 --> 01:00:35.519
<v Speaker 2>ground in the levant was there of the DDR and

603
01:00:35.559 --> 01:00:41.000
<v Speaker 2>the Rote Army fraction, but he did a lot to

604
01:00:41.039 --> 01:00:49.239
<v Speaker 2>facilitate deep contact and operational interdependence with the Popular Front

605
01:00:49.280 --> 01:00:55.039
<v Speaker 2>for the Liberation at Palestine and the PLO and things,

606
01:00:55.559 --> 01:01:01.280
<v Speaker 2>and this all ties together, not just conceptually, but in

607
01:01:01.360 --> 01:01:05.920
<v Speaker 2>terms of a common nucleus of operative fact. If that

608
01:01:06.000 --> 01:01:12.280
<v Speaker 2>makes sense. I let me see. I try. I always

609
01:01:12.280 --> 01:01:17.280
<v Speaker 2>try to indicate in my outlines where I leave off.

610
01:01:17.360 --> 01:01:21.599
<v Speaker 2>So if I'm repeating myself, please let me know. I

611
01:01:21.599 --> 01:01:25.679
<v Speaker 2>think speaking of I raised mind lyrics. If memory serves,

612
01:01:25.960 --> 01:01:29.840
<v Speaker 2>we left off talking about vvon Lears and some of

613
01:01:29.880 --> 01:01:33.400
<v Speaker 2>his work early on and after the National Socialist Revolution.

614
01:01:33.840 --> 01:01:37.920
<v Speaker 2>As early as ninety thirty four to thirty five, he

615
01:01:38.119 --> 01:01:48.760
<v Speaker 2>was attempting to create good offices with you know, European

616
01:01:48.840 --> 01:01:55.760
<v Speaker 2>Moslims in the Balkans as well as with the elements

617
01:01:55.760 --> 01:02:01.800
<v Speaker 2>in Palestine and behind the the verbial wire in the

618
01:02:01.800 --> 01:02:06.760
<v Speaker 2>Soviet Union, and von Lears very much had the ear

619
01:02:06.840 --> 01:02:13.119
<v Speaker 2>of the Gebels as time went on. Gebels actually, through

620
01:02:13.159 --> 01:02:19.320
<v Speaker 2>the Propaganda Ministry, he instructed the press to paint a

621
01:02:19.360 --> 01:02:22.920
<v Speaker 2>positive image of Islam, or at least not a negative one.

622
01:02:23.800 --> 01:02:31.280
<v Speaker 2>This long preceded the war, and he urged journalists under

623
01:02:31.320 --> 01:02:39.519
<v Speaker 2>the number of the Propaganda Ministry to give credit to

624
01:02:40.599 --> 01:02:47.519
<v Speaker 2>the Islamic world as a cultural factor that plays a

625
01:02:47.639 --> 01:02:59.960
<v Speaker 2>historically significant role in the historical process, and that alliance

626
01:03:00.119 --> 01:03:10.800
<v Speaker 2>between the national socialist cause and Pan Islamism and the

627
01:03:10.840 --> 01:03:20.840
<v Speaker 2>liberation of the Holy Land is you know, completely commensurate

628
01:03:20.960 --> 01:03:28.760
<v Speaker 2>with and a component of a national socialist of health polity,

629
01:03:29.519 --> 01:03:31.960
<v Speaker 2>you know. And this is important for a few reasons.

630
01:03:34.280 --> 01:03:38.119
<v Speaker 2>It says light not just on the deep ideological culture

631
01:03:38.159 --> 01:03:43.760
<v Speaker 2>and philosophical disposition of national socialism its standard bears, but

632
01:03:43.920 --> 01:03:48.199
<v Speaker 2>also it's yet another rebuttal of the claim that the

633
01:03:48.199 --> 01:03:54.039
<v Speaker 2>Third Reich was this provincial state that didn't understand the

634
01:03:54.079 --> 01:04:00.599
<v Speaker 2>cultural and strategic situation outside of immediate battle theaters. And

635
01:04:00.599 --> 01:04:05.920
<v Speaker 2>that's preposterous for a lot of reasons, many of which

636
01:04:05.960 --> 01:04:14.920
<v Speaker 2>are obvious. Germany was a very cosmopolitan country, not in

637
01:04:14.920 --> 01:04:22.360
<v Speaker 2>the modern pejorative sense, I mean in the the nineteenth

638
01:04:22.400 --> 01:04:27.920
<v Speaker 2>and early twentieth century European sense. Van Leers, of course,

639
01:04:27.960 --> 01:04:35.199
<v Speaker 2>to he was a linguist. He was fluent in something

640
01:04:35.239 --> 01:04:41.239
<v Speaker 2>like thirteen different dialects. He was a cultural anthropologist, I

641
01:04:41.239 --> 01:04:44.920
<v Speaker 2>mean what we consider a cultural anthropologist. He was a philologist.

642
01:04:47.719 --> 01:04:53.199
<v Speaker 2>He was an expert on Islam and Oriental societies, and

643
01:04:53.320 --> 01:04:58.480
<v Speaker 2>he was very much a right Hegelian and he wrote

644
01:04:58.599 --> 01:05:04.679
<v Speaker 2>an essay, probably his most famous essay, and it's fairly

645
01:05:04.719 --> 01:05:08.119
<v Speaker 2>accessible online. I don't know if you can find a

646
01:05:08.239 --> 01:05:17.239
<v Speaker 2>translation that's not corrupted by Ai slap, but it was

647
01:05:17.280 --> 01:05:27.599
<v Speaker 2>titled Judaism and Islam Is Opposites, and in Hegelian terms,

648
01:05:29.000 --> 01:05:33.760
<v Speaker 2>Von Leers viewed Islam as the dialectical antithesis and Judaism

649
01:05:34.320 --> 01:05:45.800
<v Speaker 2>and a splendid repudiation of it. And he said that

650
01:05:45.800 --> 01:05:51.000
<v Speaker 2>that's one of the reasons why the Caliphate wasn't subverted

651
01:05:51.800 --> 01:05:58.079
<v Speaker 2>by a hostile Jewish element within, because these were calcit

652
01:05:58.119 --> 01:06:06.039
<v Speaker 2>truant people were locked behind ghetto walls, and every aspect

653
01:06:06.119 --> 01:06:16.320
<v Speaker 2>of the Islamic cultural, social and legal code precluded them

654
01:06:16.360 --> 01:06:23.599
<v Speaker 2>mobilizing in a possi opacity to wage war from within

655
01:06:24.960 --> 01:06:30.760
<v Speaker 2>by subject huge or any other way. And whether anybody

656
01:06:31.920 --> 01:06:40.480
<v Speaker 2>accepts that perspective or not, or think that it is

657
01:06:40.599 --> 01:06:48.880
<v Speaker 2>merit within the Hegelian paradigm or without, it's a fascinating theory.

658
01:06:49.440 --> 01:06:54.840
<v Speaker 2>And I highly recommend any of von Lear's essays that

659
01:06:55.079 --> 01:06:58.760
<v Speaker 2>you can run down. I mean, admittedly have got a

660
01:06:58.880 --> 01:07:04.320
<v Speaker 2>discrete interest in the subject matter and it's relevant to

661
01:07:04.360 --> 01:07:10.280
<v Speaker 2>my own research, But I aside from that, I believe

662
01:07:10.320 --> 01:07:16.679
<v Speaker 2>it's essentially having a complete understanding and conceptual terms of

663
01:07:16.719 --> 01:07:22.320
<v Speaker 2>the Third Reich and the national socialist ideological culture. And

664
01:07:22.440 --> 01:07:29.840
<v Speaker 2>von Leers wasn't alone in his overall perspectives. Ferdinand Klaus

665
01:07:33.199 --> 01:07:42.800
<v Speaker 2>he was a well regarded racial theorist, and he was

666
01:07:42.800 --> 01:07:51.000
<v Speaker 2>an associate of Hans Gunther Hans of Kate Gunther, who

667
01:07:51.039 --> 01:07:56.599
<v Speaker 2>was another well known racialist. Both these guys in a

668
01:07:56.639 --> 01:08:03.719
<v Speaker 2>profile comparable to Houston, Stewart Chamberlain or Authrop Startard. For comparison,

669
01:08:07.199 --> 01:08:13.639
<v Speaker 2>Klaus's book Ross until Ross und Seal, Race and Soul

670
01:08:15.599 --> 01:08:20.960
<v Speaker 2>was for all practical purpose is a best seller if

671
01:08:22.119 --> 01:08:36.119
<v Speaker 2>memory serves, and for different reasons the Dad that he cited,

672
01:08:37.239 --> 01:08:41.760
<v Speaker 2>because again he Klaus and going through both had very

673
01:08:41.840 --> 01:08:50.479
<v Speaker 2>much of a materialist view of race. But they were

674
01:08:50.479 --> 01:08:55.640
<v Speaker 2>in substantial agreement with Julius Evil and Renee gain On

675
01:08:57.199 --> 01:09:05.640
<v Speaker 2>and suggesting a basic effec the between the master cast

676
01:09:05.680 --> 01:09:11.119
<v Speaker 2>stratum of the Nordic race and that of you know,

677
01:09:11.159 --> 01:09:18.680
<v Speaker 2>the Caliphate. In other words, Islam was emergent and curated

678
01:09:20.199 --> 01:09:31.159
<v Speaker 2>by the natural racial overcast within Daryl Islam. And that's

679
01:09:31.199 --> 01:09:39.159
<v Speaker 2>one of the reasons it's so splendidly tailored to this

680
01:09:39.560 --> 01:09:47.359
<v Speaker 2>integral concept of sovereignty where every man is in his

681
01:09:47.640 --> 01:10:00.159
<v Speaker 2>place and the cast system remains undisturbed because it it

682
01:10:00.319 --> 01:10:11.359
<v Speaker 2>emerges from the natural hierarchy within, you know, the oriental

683
01:10:11.439 --> 01:10:22.399
<v Speaker 2>paradigm from where it was emergent. Klaus wrote reports for

684
01:10:22.479 --> 01:10:30.399
<v Speaker 2>the SS Head Office on political affairs and strategic matters

685
01:10:30.439 --> 01:10:46.239
<v Speaker 2>relating the anthropological considerations, and he wrote, he wrote a

686
01:10:46.279 --> 01:10:54.319
<v Speaker 2>paper that was submitted titled Preparation of an Operation for

687
01:10:54.399 --> 01:10:59.079
<v Speaker 2>winning over the Islamic Peoples, you know, and within it

688
01:10:59.119 --> 01:11:03.439
<v Speaker 2>he reflected on and the good offices between the kaiser

689
01:11:03.479 --> 01:11:09.880
<v Speaker 2>Reich and the Ottoman Empire. He talked about the warrior

690
01:11:09.920 --> 01:11:13.640
<v Speaker 2>heritage of many of the STEP people who were you know,

691
01:11:13.800 --> 01:11:22.560
<v Speaker 2>very very much culturally Muslim, and he said it's important

692
01:11:22.560 --> 01:11:32.119
<v Speaker 2>to emphasize similarities and feltenscham between national socialists doctor and

693
01:11:32.119 --> 01:11:42.880
<v Speaker 2>ethics and the Quran, you know, and that's very interesting.

694
01:11:45.359 --> 01:11:56.119
<v Speaker 2>And to be clear, Klaus wasn't suggesting that national socialism

695
01:11:56.279 --> 01:11:59.560
<v Speaker 2>was intended as some sort of aristots religion. I know

696
01:11:59.640 --> 01:12:03.520
<v Speaker 2>that that's something a lot of anti fascists like to claim,

697
01:12:03.920 --> 01:12:11.640
<v Speaker 2>and Bandy, he was acknowledging that the Islamic faith structure

698
01:12:11.760 --> 01:12:17.960
<v Speaker 2>is very, very different than religion in the occident. It's

699
01:12:17.960 --> 01:12:23.399
<v Speaker 2>the integral aspects of it that are significance, because Islam

700
01:12:23.479 --> 01:12:29.399
<v Speaker 2>is a political doctrine and an ethical disposition as well

701
01:12:29.439 --> 01:12:40.439
<v Speaker 2>as the theological system, and that's what's key. And if

702
01:12:40.520 --> 01:12:48.079
<v Speaker 2>you're a Hegelian, which essentially every everybody associated with the

703
01:12:48.079 --> 01:12:55.359
<v Speaker 2>Third Reich was to some degree or another, you view

704
01:12:57.239 --> 01:13:01.399
<v Speaker 2>the development of religiosity as being very much bound up

705
01:13:01.439 --> 01:13:09.960
<v Speaker 2>with the dialectical process within the relevant culture and the

706
01:13:10.079 --> 01:13:21.000
<v Speaker 2>variables that the historical variables that created Islam were very

707
01:13:22.319 --> 01:13:31.119
<v Speaker 2>congress with those that gave rise to national socialism, particularly

708
01:13:31.239 --> 01:13:42.439
<v Speaker 2>the perennial existential ross and Kreeg against the Jew. So

709
01:13:42.520 --> 01:13:46.560
<v Speaker 2>it's not really a stretch, you know. And again you've

710
01:13:47.960 --> 01:13:53.920
<v Speaker 2>you've got to understand the conceptual parameters of the time

711
01:13:53.960 --> 01:14:02.159
<v Speaker 2>and place that these ideas are being postulated. There was

712
01:14:02.239 --> 01:14:12.000
<v Speaker 2>a unique receptivity actual potential, you know, and a lot

713
01:14:12.039 --> 01:14:17.439
<v Speaker 2>of people who otherwise know the subject matter are overly

714
01:14:17.760 --> 01:14:28.159
<v Speaker 2>dismissive of of that. Interestingly, Klaus after the war he

715
01:14:28.279 --> 01:14:35.840
<v Speaker 2>abandoned biological racialism. He remained an orientalist academic, and he

716
01:14:35.920 --> 01:14:41.239
<v Speaker 2>ultimately converted to his lamb. That was the case with

717
01:14:43.800 --> 01:14:54.199
<v Speaker 2>Carl Wolff, the SS adjutants to the permanent SS adjutant

718
01:14:54.199 --> 01:15:00.920
<v Speaker 2>to the Fear. Later he he commanded troops the field

719
01:15:01.359 --> 01:15:04.359
<v Speaker 2>and he was highly decorated. He wasn't just a parade

720
01:15:04.399 --> 01:15:10.560
<v Speaker 2>ground soldier. But he's a fascinating guy. In David Irving's

721
01:15:11.520 --> 01:15:17.239
<v Speaker 2>True Himmler, which is a great book, I understand some

722
01:15:17.319 --> 01:15:23.840
<v Speaker 2>people's lament that you can tell that it was intended

723
01:15:23.880 --> 01:15:27.640
<v Speaker 2>to be two volumes, and Irv you know the infirmity

724
01:15:27.640 --> 01:15:35.000
<v Speaker 2>of old age that strikes us all down, struck Irving

725
01:15:35.439 --> 01:15:38.319
<v Speaker 2>before you complete it. But what there is of it

726
01:15:38.359 --> 01:15:48.600
<v Speaker 2>is just fantastic. But anyway, Carl Wolf's testimony is cited extensively. Anyway,

727
01:15:48.800 --> 01:15:59.079
<v Speaker 2>Carlo Wolf's daughter, Fatima Grimm, she married that check Bosniak

728
01:15:59.479 --> 01:16:05.279
<v Speaker 2>Moslem guy, and she converted to Islam, and she became

729
01:16:05.319 --> 01:16:07.800
<v Speaker 2>an islam at the Theologian, and then she wrote extensively

730
01:16:07.880 --> 01:16:23.720
<v Speaker 2>on jihad is a concept. And I realized Klaus and

731
01:16:25.439 --> 01:16:28.159
<v Speaker 2>Fatima Griham and people like I'm at Hubert, who's it

732
01:16:28.239 --> 01:16:33.760
<v Speaker 2>was a fascinating personage. I believe Hubert would have been

733
01:16:33.760 --> 01:16:38.399
<v Speaker 2>indicted after nine to eleven had he not died, but

734
01:16:38.520 --> 01:16:43.960
<v Speaker 2>that's a subject or a discussion for another day. I

735
01:16:44.239 --> 01:16:47.560
<v Speaker 2>realized these people are outliers. I'm not suggesting that it's

736
01:16:48.920 --> 01:16:56.920
<v Speaker 2>normative or some sort of natural progression within German cultural

737
01:16:57.600 --> 01:17:00.960
<v Speaker 2>dialectics to convert to Islam. I've got too much respect

738
01:17:01.000 --> 01:17:05.840
<v Speaker 2>for Islam, but I could never imagine converting to Islam.

739
01:17:06.119 --> 01:17:10.159
<v Speaker 2>But the exception of somebody like Renet Denon who truly

740
01:17:10.199 --> 01:17:17.279
<v Speaker 2>went native, I mean that, you know, living among Moslims

741
01:17:17.279 --> 01:17:21.600
<v Speaker 2>and living in the Orient for essentially his whole life,

742
01:17:21.640 --> 01:17:31.079
<v Speaker 2>that's a different phenomenon. However, with those qualifiers, I there

743
01:17:31.159 --> 01:17:35.520
<v Speaker 2>is some sort of internal logic, especially considered the catastrophe

744
01:17:35.560 --> 01:17:40.439
<v Speaker 2>of the day of Defeat and the subsequent occupation. There

745
01:17:40.479 --> 01:17:46.359
<v Speaker 2>is some sort of internal logic to the peculiar spiritual

746
01:17:48.479 --> 01:17:54.079
<v Speaker 2>journey of von Leers, of Fatima, Graham of Klaus. I believe,

747
01:17:56.079 --> 01:18:01.319
<v Speaker 2>but I'm sure the buddle of that is that that's

748
01:18:02.439 --> 01:18:15.600
<v Speaker 2>speculation the U and there was others too. There was

749
01:18:15.680 --> 01:18:24.319
<v Speaker 2>other academic writers Schmidtz, Lindemann, Reichhardt who posited not just

750
01:18:25.439 --> 01:18:29.760
<v Speaker 2>an alliance at geo strategic convenience, but an ideological affinity

751
01:18:30.359 --> 01:18:38.119
<v Speaker 2>for between Islam and the national social state on Hegelian grounds.

752
01:18:42.319 --> 01:18:45.760
<v Speaker 2>Linderman went as far as to say that and some

753
01:18:45.840 --> 01:18:51.600
<v Speaker 2>of the propaganda that he drafted intended for Islamic societies.

754
01:18:53.319 --> 01:19:00.159
<v Speaker 2>He said, the fuer prinsip is the occidental variant of,

755
01:19:02.319 --> 01:19:04.600
<v Speaker 2>you know, the same the principle that animates the caliphate,

756
01:19:06.399 --> 01:19:14.640
<v Speaker 2>you know. And Raichar knew the Quran very well, so

757
01:19:14.720 --> 01:19:19.880
<v Speaker 2>he was able to cite passages that conveyed the notion

758
01:19:20.039 --> 01:19:25.840
<v Speaker 2>that Muhammad was the fear of the believers and subsequently

759
01:19:25.840 --> 01:19:34.279
<v Speaker 2>the caliph represented that role, you know. And but he

760
01:19:34.359 --> 01:19:36.680
<v Speaker 2>made it clear that the fear is comparable to the Mahdi.

761
01:19:36.920 --> 01:19:40.239
<v Speaker 2>You know. He's not suggesting the fear as a prophet.

762
01:19:40.399 --> 01:19:45.000
<v Speaker 2>You know. It was very intelligently tailored before its purpose,

763
01:19:48.880 --> 01:19:54.960
<v Speaker 2>you know. And of course Moslims were under tremendous pressure

764
01:19:55.119 --> 01:19:59.039
<v Speaker 2>by the by the communists, you know, they were they

765
01:19:59.039 --> 01:20:02.319
<v Speaker 2>were targeted as some early as as Orthodox Christians were,

766
01:20:07.880 --> 01:20:16.560
<v Speaker 2>you know, in that also provided in avenue of ingress

767
01:20:17.279 --> 01:20:29.920
<v Speaker 2>for this kind of discoursive affinity. And after as early

768
01:20:29.920 --> 01:20:36.680
<v Speaker 2>as nineteen thirty six, the major transmitter of German propaganda

769
01:20:36.920 --> 01:20:40.840
<v Speaker 2>to the Mediterranean and North Africa and the Middle East

770
01:20:41.800 --> 01:20:47.239
<v Speaker 2>was in Zessen. Go to the small town south of Berlin,

771
01:20:48.520 --> 01:20:52.079
<v Speaker 2>and it housed at the time one of the most

772
01:20:52.119 --> 01:20:57.039
<v Speaker 2>powerful shortwave transmitters in the world. It had been built

773
01:20:57.239 --> 01:21:01.319
<v Speaker 2>for the transmit for the ninety thirty six Olympics and

774
01:21:03.279 --> 01:21:07.439
<v Speaker 2>after nineteenth. As of nineteen thirty nine the broadcast station

775
01:21:07.520 --> 01:21:11.920
<v Speaker 2>ISS Zessen it brought it had an Arabic broadcast every day,

776
01:21:14.720 --> 01:21:22.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, intended for Turk's, Iranians Maslims who were then

777
01:21:24.359 --> 01:21:35.359
<v Speaker 2>within uh the British Raj. There was a journalist, Gustav Buffinger,

778
01:21:38.720 --> 01:21:41.000
<v Speaker 2>who headed up what was called the orient office of

779
01:21:41.079 --> 01:21:48.079
<v Speaker 2>the radio station. They had They had seventy or eighty

780
01:21:49.439 --> 01:21:55.560
<v Speaker 2>permanent staff members a type as translators, announcers, and as

781
01:21:55.600 --> 01:22:01.359
<v Speaker 2>the war went on, it broadcasts in standard Arabic, but

782
01:22:01.640 --> 01:22:08.600
<v Speaker 2>in berber and in some of these could Cassius languages too.

783
01:22:09.760 --> 01:22:15.520
<v Speaker 2>There was an Egyptian Emigray named a Eunice Bari who

784
01:22:15.640 --> 01:22:20.760
<v Speaker 2>was a big national socialist and he was a permanent

785
01:22:20.840 --> 01:22:28.840
<v Speaker 2>fixture at the Zessen radio station. He's he's a shadowy guy.

786
01:22:29.359 --> 01:22:34.279
<v Speaker 2>He disappeared at some point and it's pretty it's pretty

787
01:22:34.279 --> 01:22:41.359
<v Speaker 2>clear if he wasn't murdered. He disappeared into the into

788
01:22:41.359 --> 01:22:43.800
<v Speaker 2>the Middle East, and and and probably took it a

789
01:22:43.800 --> 01:22:47.039
<v Speaker 2>new identity and ended up similarly in the court of

790
01:22:47.159 --> 01:22:53.319
<v Speaker 2>Nasser or or in Syria. But you know this in

791
01:22:54.399 --> 01:23:01.199
<v Speaker 2>the Zessen uh the Oriental broadcast from Zessen they continued

792
01:23:01.279 --> 01:23:05.840
<v Speaker 2>until just a month before the day of defeat, you know,

793
01:23:05.840 --> 01:23:09.199
<v Speaker 2>in April ninety forty five. So it was it was

794
01:23:09.239 --> 01:23:17.560
<v Speaker 2>a major thing. We've got to get into the life

795
01:23:17.560 --> 01:23:21.680
<v Speaker 2>and times in Muhammad Amino Husseini for this to be

796
01:23:22.399 --> 01:23:27.119
<v Speaker 2>anything approaching complete discussions. So forgive me for changing gears

797
01:23:27.279 --> 01:23:32.319
<v Speaker 2>to you know, like a biographical discussion. You know, of

798
01:23:32.359 --> 01:23:36.359
<v Speaker 2>course Hussein he was the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, and

799
01:23:36.880 --> 01:23:40.399
<v Speaker 2>he's a man who's very much light about and which

800
01:23:40.439 --> 01:23:44.279
<v Speaker 2>comes with no surprise. Not only was he a Palestinian

801
01:23:45.560 --> 01:23:51.640
<v Speaker 2>and a significant man in Sunni Islam, but you know,

802
01:23:51.680 --> 01:23:56.319
<v Speaker 2>he also was allied to the Axis cause. So that's

803
01:23:56.359 --> 01:24:00.800
<v Speaker 2>sort of a sort of a perfect storm carearacteristics that

804
01:24:01.199 --> 01:24:07.399
<v Speaker 2>you know, make on a target for slanders of the

805
01:24:07.399 --> 01:24:17.560
<v Speaker 2>most hostile sort. He was pretty pretty much indisputably the

806
01:24:17.600 --> 01:24:25.560
<v Speaker 2>most powerful leader of the Palestinian national movement during British

807
01:24:25.640 --> 01:24:28.520
<v Speaker 2>rule over you know what, before it had been an

808
01:24:28.560 --> 01:24:32.000
<v Speaker 2>Ottoman fief them for those that don't know it, from

809
01:24:32.479 --> 01:24:38.479
<v Speaker 2>night approximately nineteen seventeen until ninety forty eight, that was

810
01:24:38.520 --> 01:24:45.560
<v Speaker 2>the period of British rule over Palestine, and the mouftie

811
01:24:45.960 --> 01:24:50.760
<v Speaker 2>was he reminds me very much a Sayid Kuta in

812
01:24:51.199 --> 01:25:00.960
<v Speaker 2>his disposition. You know, people suggest he talked about both

813
01:25:01.000 --> 01:25:05.039
<v Speaker 2>sides of his mouth and the issue of violent partisan activity.

814
01:25:06.000 --> 01:25:10.199
<v Speaker 2>You've got to understand the role of the mufti, like

815
01:25:10.319 --> 01:25:14.359
<v Speaker 2>a mofie is a learned man in Islamic jurisprudence, and

816
01:25:16.720 --> 01:25:21.159
<v Speaker 2>soon he's put a premium on interpretation and application of

817
01:25:21.199 --> 01:25:27.199
<v Speaker 2>the law. So a moftie he's not a governor as

818
01:25:27.199 --> 01:25:29.960
<v Speaker 2>we think of it, and he's not a priest either.

819
01:25:31.840 --> 01:25:38.039
<v Speaker 2>He's he's one part sort of a learned wise man

820
01:25:38.319 --> 01:25:47.439
<v Speaker 2>within the tribe and one part intermediary between the congregation

821
01:25:47.520 --> 01:25:52.479
<v Speaker 2>of the faithful and the outsider or secular authority. You know,

822
01:25:54.239 --> 01:25:57.079
<v Speaker 2>and a lot of both Zionists and a lot of

823
01:25:57.119 --> 01:26:01.159
<v Speaker 2>court historians, either out of ignorance or because they're how

824
01:26:01.279 --> 01:26:06.760
<v Speaker 2>telling the the presudice of the former, they claim, Oh,

825
01:26:06.880 --> 01:26:10.319
<v Speaker 2>the the British invented the office of the Grand Mufti

826
01:26:10.479 --> 01:26:15.760
<v Speaker 2>to have some sort of figurehead on the ground, you know,

827
01:26:15.840 --> 01:26:24.800
<v Speaker 2>to to mitigate the difficulties of directly ruling over a

828
01:26:24.840 --> 01:26:31.520
<v Speaker 2>Maslim population. That's not true, that's ridiculous. They British recognized

829
01:26:31.600 --> 01:26:36.279
<v Speaker 2>him as the Grand Moutie of Jerusalem and seeded authority

830
01:26:36.359 --> 01:26:40.600
<v Speaker 2>over Islamic holy sites to him. But you're you're talking

831
01:26:40.640 --> 01:26:43.800
<v Speaker 2>about a role and a title and a function of

832
01:26:44.000 --> 01:26:50.680
<v Speaker 2>mufti that that spans a thousand years, okay. But to

833
01:26:50.680 --> 01:26:55.359
<v Speaker 2>bring it back to some of the similarities in him

834
01:26:55.399 --> 01:27:05.119
<v Speaker 2>and Kutev and another Islamic juris types. You know, it's

835
01:27:05.279 --> 01:27:10.560
<v Speaker 2>there's a complex interplay between how a good Moslem relates

836
01:27:10.600 --> 01:27:17.840
<v Speaker 2>to secular authority and how he manages a situation and

837
01:27:18.520 --> 01:27:22.319
<v Speaker 2>is such as that that you know, the Palestinians were

838
01:27:22.359 --> 01:27:25.880
<v Speaker 2>in vis a vis the occupation. They knew that some

839
01:27:25.960 --> 01:27:29.520
<v Speaker 2>sort of race war was coming and that the Desionists

840
01:27:29.520 --> 01:27:32.840
<v Speaker 2>wanted to ethnically cleanse them. They knew that British would

841
01:27:32.840 --> 01:27:36.840
<v Speaker 2>be leaving at some point, and they knew that if

842
01:27:37.439 --> 01:27:43.279
<v Speaker 2>a national state was going to be realized, they would

843
01:27:43.399 --> 01:27:49.399
<v Speaker 2>have to make that divorce from British rule amicable, you know.

844
01:27:49.439 --> 01:27:54.760
<v Speaker 2>And finally, a moved he's not a general and he's

845
01:27:54.760 --> 01:28:00.199
<v Speaker 2>not a guerrilla fighter or a soldier. I mean his

846
01:28:01.319 --> 01:28:04.119
<v Speaker 2>if he if he's called it, laid on his life

847
01:28:05.319 --> 01:28:08.239
<v Speaker 2>for Jahad. That's what he must do, and he will

848
01:28:08.279 --> 01:28:12.479
<v Speaker 2>do if he's worthy of the of the title. But

849
01:28:14.199 --> 01:28:18.279
<v Speaker 2>you know, he's it's not his role to devise military

850
01:28:18.319 --> 01:28:22.560
<v Speaker 2>solutions under conditions of occupation or it's his job to

851
01:28:22.680 --> 01:28:30.239
<v Speaker 2>keep the people safe, you know, and to interpret the

852
01:28:30.359 --> 01:28:33.920
<v Speaker 2>law is laid down by the governing structure in a

853
01:28:33.960 --> 01:28:37.439
<v Speaker 2>way that allows from Islamic life to be realized, you know.

854
01:28:37.479 --> 01:28:40.640
<v Speaker 2>And beyond that too that I'm not a Quran scholar,

855
01:28:40.960 --> 01:28:44.640
<v Speaker 2>but so you know, I just want to get that

856
01:28:44.680 --> 01:28:52.359
<v Speaker 2>out there. But when our revolt is permissible under the Quran,

857
01:28:52.840 --> 01:28:57.039
<v Speaker 2>there's very discreete conditions for that, you know, even in

858
01:28:57.119 --> 01:29:04.079
<v Speaker 2>apostate occupier or or Kelly. If he protects Islam and

859
01:29:05.159 --> 01:29:09.720
<v Speaker 2>allows Moslims to freely worship, it's not it's it's not

860
01:29:10.279 --> 01:29:14.279
<v Speaker 2>just or righteous to overthrow him or to disobey him,

861
01:29:15.439 --> 01:29:22.720
<v Speaker 2>you know. And so there's that obviously, you know, he's

862
01:29:22.720 --> 01:29:27.119
<v Speaker 2>a he's a hate target of mainstream historians in the

863
01:29:27.119 --> 01:29:30.760
<v Speaker 2>Anglo sphere, but even a lot of Maslims. Some people

864
01:29:30.800 --> 01:29:33.479
<v Speaker 2>try and paint him as some sort of extremist quasi

865
01:29:33.560 --> 01:29:37.560
<v Speaker 2>national socialist. On the other hand, you you know, you

866
01:29:37.720 --> 01:29:43.239
<v Speaker 2>a lot of passionate people behind the Palestinian cause. You know,

867
01:29:43.239 --> 01:29:50.000
<v Speaker 2>they view him as some as some sort of machiavellian intriguer,

868
01:29:50.279 --> 01:29:54.720
<v Speaker 2>you know, who didn't do enough to to protect Palestine.

869
01:29:54.960 --> 01:30:01.239
<v Speaker 2>That's misguided in my opinion. You know, he was as

870
01:30:01.279 --> 01:30:07.640
<v Speaker 2>part as in as he as was appropriate to the circumstances.

871
01:30:08.319 --> 01:30:12.479
<v Speaker 2>And the fact that he the fact that he got

872
01:30:12.479 --> 01:30:15.159
<v Speaker 2>a personal audience that off Hitler is pretty remarkable and

873
01:30:15.199 --> 01:30:18.079
<v Speaker 2>the way that came about is fascinating too, And I'll

874
01:30:18.079 --> 01:30:26.840
<v Speaker 2>get into that. But you know, the on the one hand, uh,

875
01:30:27.359 --> 01:30:34.439
<v Speaker 2>Hitler was cunning in who he would curate good offices with.

876
01:30:35.640 --> 01:30:39.640
<v Speaker 2>But it's it wasn't some foregone conclusion Hitler would meet

877
01:30:39.760 --> 01:30:43.159
<v Speaker 2>whoever the Grand Moftia Palestine was. Why would he? I mean,

878
01:30:43.199 --> 01:30:50.239
<v Speaker 2>basically the force of personality and the post persuasiveness of

879
01:30:50.279 --> 01:30:54.239
<v Speaker 2>his polemic and his own sort of cunning and intriguing

880
01:30:55.039 --> 01:30:58.039
<v Speaker 2>because he was something of an intriguer that's not a slander,

881
01:30:58.479 --> 01:31:01.680
<v Speaker 2>is what brought him into a face to face meeting

882
01:31:01.760 --> 01:31:05.960
<v Speaker 2>with the fear. And that's pretty extraordinary, you know, whatever's

883
01:31:06.039 --> 01:31:14.880
<v Speaker 2>flaws that have to be acknowledged, you know, and it's

884
01:31:14.920 --> 01:31:21.640
<v Speaker 2>also to the circumstances on the ground in Palestine. I

885
01:31:21.680 --> 01:31:27.359
<v Speaker 2>mean to say nothing in the warriors, but from the conclusion,

886
01:31:27.520 --> 01:31:33.520
<v Speaker 2>from the fall of the Ottoman Empire until you know,

887
01:31:33.640 --> 01:31:38.840
<v Speaker 2>the the declaration of design is state and the ethnic

888
01:31:38.880 --> 01:31:44.199
<v Speaker 2>cleansing of Palestine, there's an incredibly unstable and not just

889
01:31:44.279 --> 01:31:47.159
<v Speaker 2>fluid but atinkly chaotic situation on the ground and the

890
01:31:47.239 --> 01:31:52.840
<v Speaker 2>levant you know, the the move. These views changed in

891
01:31:52.880 --> 01:32:02.199
<v Speaker 2>accordance with the security situation and the historical situation. You know,

892
01:32:02.279 --> 01:32:09.399
<v Speaker 2>there was basically at least two distinct phases, you know,

893
01:32:10.840 --> 01:32:17.479
<v Speaker 2>from nineteen seventeen when the British arrived, until about nineteen

894
01:32:17.479 --> 01:32:22.800
<v Speaker 2>thirty six, where he was, like say Kute, a kind

895
01:32:22.800 --> 01:32:31.199
<v Speaker 2>of cautious, pragmatic traditional leader in the mofty role, you know,

896
01:32:31.279 --> 01:32:38.319
<v Speaker 2>cooperating with British officials will uncompromisingly opposing Zionism. And then

897
01:32:40.000 --> 01:32:43.399
<v Speaker 2>there was the exile phase. The moved. He was exiled

898
01:32:43.399 --> 01:32:50.479
<v Speaker 2>after the Arab revolt, which was catastrophic, not his exile,

899
01:32:50.560 --> 01:32:54.239
<v Speaker 2>I mean the outcome of the Arab revolt, but rightly

900
01:32:54.399 --> 01:33:02.720
<v Speaker 2>or wrongly, he was swept up in the reaction of

901
01:33:02.079 --> 01:33:08.479
<v Speaker 2>the crown to the revolutionary situation on the ground, and

902
01:33:08.880 --> 01:33:14.159
<v Speaker 2>you know, he was identified as a partisan actor, if

903
01:33:14.399 --> 01:33:25.119
<v Speaker 2>not an architect of the rebellion. But after he was

904
01:33:25.199 --> 01:33:33.079
<v Speaker 2>understandably bitter being exiled from his home, you know. And

905
01:33:33.159 --> 01:33:41.520
<v Speaker 2>again the Hussini family has a powerful and distinct heritage

906
01:33:41.600 --> 01:33:48.319
<v Speaker 2>to this day. They remained important people in theater. But

907
01:33:48.439 --> 01:33:56.000
<v Speaker 2>he became he became increasingly radical, and he gravitated ultimately

908
01:33:56.800 --> 01:34:01.720
<v Speaker 2>to the axis, and he did become a partisan. You know,

909
01:34:01.880 --> 01:34:13.119
<v Speaker 2>he ultimately he became essentially got loab Burger's right hand

910
01:34:13.159 --> 01:34:19.520
<v Speaker 2>man and recruiting and mobilizing Masm populations to the vafinesss

911
01:34:24.760 --> 01:34:36.520
<v Speaker 2>now again too, you know, Husseining he had been he'd

912
01:34:36.520 --> 01:34:42.199
<v Speaker 2>come up through the Ottoman system. You know, those Sainy family,

913
01:34:44.399 --> 01:34:52.640
<v Speaker 2>They were the most prominent political Palestinian family who were

914
01:34:52.680 --> 01:34:58.880
<v Speaker 2>the direct intermediary for generations between the Palestinians and the

915
01:34:58.920 --> 01:35:06.119
<v Speaker 2>Ottoman overlords. You know. So I mean exiling him was

916
01:35:05.880 --> 01:35:12.920
<v Speaker 2>it was no small thing. And he wasn't He wasn't

917
01:35:12.960 --> 01:35:19.920
<v Speaker 2>some upstart careerist or some random emam you know, who

918
01:35:21.439 --> 01:35:28.159
<v Speaker 2>insinuated himself into a clerical and partisan role, going to

919
01:35:28.279 --> 01:35:35.640
<v Speaker 2>a nascent and then fully realized crisis situation. You know.

920
01:35:35.840 --> 01:35:42.399
<v Speaker 2>So that's all these things are, all these things are

921
01:35:42.439 --> 01:35:50.279
<v Speaker 2>important to consider. What uh oh, I want to give

922
01:35:50.319 --> 01:35:56.600
<v Speaker 2>me one second just to find my citation here. I'm sorry,

923
01:35:58.600 --> 01:36:07.359
<v Speaker 2>I wanted to I wanted to get into how how

924
01:36:07.399 --> 01:36:14.079
<v Speaker 2>the Grand moved. He got an audience with Hitler. Another

925
01:36:14.119 --> 01:36:17.920
<v Speaker 2>personage who was essential to the development of the Third

926
01:36:17.960 --> 01:36:26.119
<v Speaker 2>Reich's relationship with the Grand Muftie but Islamic populations generally,

927
01:36:29.279 --> 01:36:36.239
<v Speaker 2>was a German officer named Veilhelm Hintersatz, also known as

928
01:36:36.680 --> 01:36:44.720
<v Speaker 2>Harun al Rashid bay He was an SS standard and feure.

929
01:36:45.920 --> 01:36:50.000
<v Speaker 2>He was born in Brandenburg and during World War Two

930
01:36:52.720 --> 01:37:02.239
<v Speaker 2>he commanded the Eastern Moslem Division OS turkisher Waffenveband Division,

931
01:37:03.760 --> 01:37:14.439
<v Speaker 2>which was this sort of cosmopolitan pastiche of Kazakhs, Turkmen

932
01:37:15.199 --> 01:37:26.239
<v Speaker 2>as aeris you name it, but el Rashid. During the

933
01:37:26.239 --> 01:37:34.479
<v Speaker 2>First World War he served on the General staff of

934
01:37:34.520 --> 01:37:38.439
<v Speaker 2>the Ottoman Empire with Enver Pasha, who was one of

935
01:37:38.439 --> 01:37:42.479
<v Speaker 2>the young Turks. For those in know the history, and

936
01:37:43.159 --> 01:37:47.479
<v Speaker 2>during his time there, two things happened. He developed a

937
01:37:47.560 --> 01:37:52.840
<v Speaker 2>strong admiration for Otto Lehman von Sanders who he met.

938
01:37:53.000 --> 01:37:59.159
<v Speaker 2>Sanders was this Prussian aristocrat who was a non observant

939
01:38:00.439 --> 01:38:07.119
<v Speaker 2>Jew who became this hero of the Ottoman Empire after

940
01:38:07.159 --> 01:38:10.760
<v Speaker 2>spending his life there and and and and training their

941
01:38:10.800 --> 01:38:17.479
<v Speaker 2>people and waging war when the Ottoman Empire went to

942
01:38:17.560 --> 01:38:22.520
<v Speaker 2>war in command the Turkish troops. L Rashid wrote a

943
01:38:22.560 --> 01:38:25.840
<v Speaker 2>biography of Sanders later that got published in Berlin in

944
01:38:25.880 --> 01:38:29.319
<v Speaker 2>the thirties that got a lot of fan fear. Anyway,

945
01:38:30.279 --> 01:38:33.199
<v Speaker 2>during the war, during the Great War, he converted to

946
01:38:33.239 --> 01:38:35.439
<v Speaker 2>his lamb and then he as when he became Haruin

947
01:38:35.479 --> 01:38:49.439
<v Speaker 2>o rashid Bait. After his conversion, he Uh he met

948
01:38:49.560 --> 01:38:55.600
<v Speaker 2>up with As the Great War was ending, there was

949
01:38:56.319 --> 01:39:00.760
<v Speaker 2>a whole glut of POW's from the Russian Empire at

950
01:39:00.840 --> 01:39:05.439
<v Speaker 2>Wunsdorff camp and he met he met a bunch of

951
01:39:05.479 --> 01:39:11.119
<v Speaker 2>Maslim POWs who had been drafted into the Tsarist army,

952
01:39:12.119 --> 01:39:20.880
<v Speaker 2>and they further schooled him in Islam, and he developed

953
01:39:20.880 --> 01:39:25.119
<v Speaker 2>an interest also in the Russian way of war because

954
01:39:25.319 --> 01:39:31.119
<v Speaker 2>looking forward it was clear that you know, the Soviet

955
01:39:31.279 --> 01:39:36.439
<v Speaker 2>Union was going to be the the prime geostrategic actor,

956
01:39:37.359 --> 01:39:40.680
<v Speaker 2>not just in Europe and not just contra Germany, but

957
01:39:41.520 --> 01:39:51.479
<v Speaker 2>you know, across his entire planet, because he was a

958
01:39:51.479 --> 01:39:57.760
<v Speaker 2>an Aryan Maslim and an experienced combat officer, and he

959
01:39:57.800 --> 01:40:05.199
<v Speaker 2>was multi lingual, and he had the implicit trust of

960
01:40:05.279 --> 01:40:10.680
<v Speaker 2>other Moslems. He was recruited by Italian intelligence when they

961
01:40:10.720 --> 01:40:14.880
<v Speaker 2>went to war in Ethiopia, you know, so he served

962
01:40:15.920 --> 01:40:27.359
<v Speaker 2>il Duce and further augmented his credentials and guys who

963
01:40:27.439 --> 01:40:30.760
<v Speaker 2>served under him, like Italians and Germans, you know, who

964
01:40:33.000 --> 01:40:37.800
<v Speaker 2>said it was uncanny that they said he quote prayed

965
01:40:37.800 --> 01:40:41.840
<v Speaker 2>without timidity in a mosque and quote he had the

966
01:40:41.880 --> 01:40:45.079
<v Speaker 2>implicit trust of the native Mohammedians who saw him as

967
01:40:45.079 --> 01:40:53.800
<v Speaker 2>a fellow believer. He also viewed the United Kingdom as

968
01:40:53.880 --> 01:41:01.279
<v Speaker 2>potentially Germany's Achilles. Heel and he said, and this was

969
01:41:01.359 --> 01:41:05.479
<v Speaker 2>even long before the ascendency of the War Party, but

970
01:41:07.000 --> 01:41:09.359
<v Speaker 2>he said that the British Empire is gonna have to

971
01:41:09.359 --> 01:41:11.800
<v Speaker 2>be neutralized because they're going to make war on the Reich.

972
01:41:12.840 --> 01:41:21.560
<v Speaker 2>And he said the key instrumentality of the Reich prevailing

973
01:41:21.560 --> 01:41:27.239
<v Speaker 2>in that conflict is an alliance with with with with

974
01:41:27.359 --> 01:41:34.520
<v Speaker 2>Moslims on you know, currently under hostile occupation by by

975
01:41:34.560 --> 01:41:41.600
<v Speaker 2>the United Kingdom. He uh, during opera when our when

976
01:41:41.600 --> 01:41:45.840
<v Speaker 2>operations Barbara Rosa kicked off or she he was a

977
01:41:45.880 --> 01:41:54.319
<v Speaker 2>liaison officer with the Reich Main Security Office and the

978
01:41:54.479 --> 01:42:01.600
<v Speaker 2>UH Eastern populations, you know, the UH, the Moslim nations

979
01:42:01.720 --> 01:42:06.600
<v Speaker 2>within Maslim nationalities within the Soviet Union, and in that

980
01:42:06.840 --> 01:42:10.479
<v Speaker 2>role with the Right Security Main Office of the s S,

981
01:42:11.640 --> 01:42:15.520
<v Speaker 2>he made contact with the Grand Moufty hodj I mean

982
01:42:15.840 --> 01:42:23.840
<v Speaker 2>hodj I mean al Hussini and this became a a

983
01:42:23.880 --> 01:42:26.600
<v Speaker 2>close friendship between the two men, and it developed into

984
01:42:26.600 --> 01:42:33.039
<v Speaker 2>a deep alliance. And El Rashid and the Grand Mufti

985
01:42:33.199 --> 01:42:37.840
<v Speaker 2>they began drawing up a plan. They believed that there

986
01:42:38.239 --> 01:42:40.880
<v Speaker 2>there was two things happening here. This is one of

987
01:42:40.880 --> 01:42:48.399
<v Speaker 2>the Quagmire and the Balkans was emerging in earnest you know,

988
01:42:48.520 --> 01:43:00.840
<v Speaker 2>which which was remained UH unmanageable for a substantial portion

989
01:43:00.920 --> 01:43:05.319
<v Speaker 2>of the war. So she and the Grand Mufti they

990
01:43:05.359 --> 01:43:13.039
<v Speaker 2>believe that the ideal place to deploy a Moslim division

991
01:43:13.640 --> 01:43:21.520
<v Speaker 2>would be in the Balkans, you know. And thus hand

992
01:43:21.640 --> 01:43:34.920
<v Speaker 2>Jar came about thirteenth SS. But additionally, Bosnia was the

993
01:43:35.039 --> 01:43:39.279
<v Speaker 2>Moslem heartland within Europe. And again, like we talked about

994
01:43:39.359 --> 01:43:42.439
<v Speaker 2>in the first episode, there's a prestige that attended that,

995
01:43:44.079 --> 01:43:52.039
<v Speaker 2>and plus the ecumenical clout of the Grand Mofie of Jerusalem,

996
01:43:52.079 --> 01:43:59.920
<v Speaker 2>who's a very respected man, going to Sarajevo and addressed

997
01:44:01.119 --> 01:44:08.680
<v Speaker 2>not just Bosniaks but all Moslims and particularly those behind

998
01:44:08.720 --> 01:44:16.680
<v Speaker 2>the wire fighting communism. This uh, this, this, this was

999
01:44:16.920 --> 01:44:27.279
<v Speaker 2>very politically savy a relative of the King of Egypt,

1000
01:44:27.399 --> 01:44:35.760
<v Speaker 2>King Farouk, a Prince Mansour dow El Rashid met him

1001
01:44:35.840 --> 01:44:42.479
<v Speaker 2>through the Mufti, and Mansour then began aiding in these

1002
01:44:42.520 --> 01:44:49.319
<v Speaker 2>recruitment efforts and that that bolstered these propaganda efforts, and

1003
01:44:49.520 --> 01:44:56.000
<v Speaker 2>uh the resulting formation. Ultimately Hanjar was the first, and

1004
01:44:56.039 --> 01:45:01.399
<v Speaker 2>it was also Skanderberg, which was Albanian, Moslem and Kamma.

1005
01:45:03.520 --> 01:45:09.720
<v Speaker 2>But the true Pan Islamic division sized element was uh

1006
01:45:11.159 --> 01:45:18.880
<v Speaker 2>the Aus Turk Waffens Turkish Vafen SS Eastern Turkic SS cores.

1007
01:45:22.119 --> 01:45:24.800
<v Speaker 2>And again it was a it was turk Man, it

1008
01:45:24.840 --> 01:45:29.439
<v Speaker 2>was Kazakhs, it was a series. It was you know,

1009
01:45:32.560 --> 01:45:41.600
<v Speaker 2>all the nationalities of the Soviet Union who were of

1010
01:45:41.640 --> 01:45:48.920
<v Speaker 2>the Mauslim faith were represented. I'm gonna till we got

1011
01:45:49.119 --> 01:45:59.479
<v Speaker 2>okay it. Uh. Now, what's really interesting here is that, Yeah,

1012
01:46:00.680 --> 01:46:08.560
<v Speaker 2>the other side, Ty personage ins with got Lot Burger.

1013
01:46:15.520 --> 01:46:22.000
<v Speaker 2>He was a SS general as UH well as a

1014
01:46:22.079 --> 01:46:28.680
<v Speaker 2>higher SS and police leader, and he was responsible for

1015
01:46:28.760 --> 01:46:39.039
<v Speaker 2>the recruitment of non German nationalities into the and he

1016
01:46:39.159 --> 01:46:42.439
<v Speaker 2>was impressed with what he saw from l. Rashid in

1017
01:46:42.560 --> 01:46:52.880
<v Speaker 2>the Mufti and berger Uh decided that there had to

1018
01:46:52.920 --> 01:47:00.439
<v Speaker 2>be an effort to insinuate chaplains with a an national

1019
01:47:00.479 --> 01:47:11.159
<v Speaker 2>socialist ideological education into Islamic formations. So the position of

1020
01:47:11.239 --> 01:47:15.199
<v Speaker 2>military imam was first introduced in ninety forty two. And

1021
01:47:15.239 --> 01:47:20.239
<v Speaker 2>this again is that that Behastont got Lobed Burger the

1022
01:47:20.319 --> 01:47:38.680
<v Speaker 2>command headquarters of the SS Eastern Turkish Division. They set

1023
01:47:38.760 --> 01:47:45.880
<v Speaker 2>up what amount to do an imam training school and

1024
01:47:47.439 --> 01:47:53.800
<v Speaker 2>it oversaw religious practices and the four Mauslim legions as

1025
01:47:53.800 --> 01:48:04.279
<v Speaker 2>they were designated find uh a mola at division level

1026
01:48:06.119 --> 01:48:14.239
<v Speaker 2>and emms and clerics down to platoon level. The overall

1027
01:48:15.079 --> 01:48:21.199
<v Speaker 2>UH legion mola was a for the Isazabaijani legion. For example,

1028
01:48:21.279 --> 01:48:29.039
<v Speaker 2>it was Iman Pasha IV, the Turkestan legion. It was

1029
01:48:29.119 --> 01:48:35.359
<v Speaker 2>a molla you know you to have and so on

1030
01:48:35.399 --> 01:48:41.520
<v Speaker 2>down the line and legion and division molas. They were

1031
01:48:41.520 --> 01:48:46.640
<v Speaker 2>the equivalent of company commander, and these were fighting men.

1032
01:48:49.279 --> 01:48:52.520
<v Speaker 2>One of the most famous of the imams, he was

1033
01:48:52.520 --> 01:48:57.680
<v Speaker 2>a bosmik named Haleem Malich. He held the Iron Cross

1034
01:48:58.560 --> 01:49:04.399
<v Speaker 2>and slew of other awards. You know, So these these

1035
01:49:04.399 --> 01:49:15.399
<v Speaker 2>guys weren't just actors or stand in propaganda elements. And

1036
01:49:15.439 --> 01:49:21.960
<v Speaker 2>it also this was a level of religious formalized religious

1037
01:49:22.239 --> 01:49:30.680
<v Speaker 2>hierarchy and institutionalization, which basically it was there's there's just

1038
01:49:30.720 --> 01:49:34.479
<v Speaker 2>there's something brilliant about it. That's not how Maslim armies

1039
01:49:34.479 --> 01:49:42.520
<v Speaker 2>were organized. It was really assimilating Islamic cultural coding into

1040
01:49:42.520 --> 01:49:48.680
<v Speaker 2>a Wehrmacht model, and a lot of the recruits really

1041
01:49:48.720 --> 01:49:53.159
<v Speaker 2>took to that. There were some malim legions that were terrible,

1042
01:49:53.359 --> 01:50:00.439
<v Speaker 2>and there were some that were absolutely savage, but this

1043
01:50:00.640 --> 01:50:12.399
<v Speaker 2>almost ecclesiastical structure that one would have found in the

1044
01:50:12.520 --> 01:50:16.319
<v Speaker 2>company in the Thirty Years War, for example, you know,

1045
01:50:16.479 --> 01:50:21.079
<v Speaker 2>transposed to an Islamic cultural paradigm, like when it worked

1046
01:50:21.159 --> 01:50:27.760
<v Speaker 2>when the mentioned material constituting the company, platoon or division

1047
01:50:27.760 --> 01:50:31.319
<v Speaker 2>in question, when it was game fighters, and when it

1048
01:50:31.359 --> 01:50:37.880
<v Speaker 2>was mentioned material suitable for soldiery, it was a it

1049
01:50:37.920 --> 01:50:46.319
<v Speaker 2>was it was a fantastic formula. And it also it

1050
01:50:50.239 --> 01:50:55.439
<v Speaker 2>that's did wonders for discipline and morale. It was just

1051
01:50:55.479 --> 01:51:01.600
<v Speaker 2>a question of spiritual council. There was a way of

1052
01:51:01.600 --> 01:51:06.279
<v Speaker 2>conveying to these recruits that you know, this is a

1053
01:51:06.640 --> 01:51:10.960
<v Speaker 2>this is a jihad against Bolshevism and Jewry and being

1054
01:51:11.000 --> 01:51:14.399
<v Speaker 2>a good national socialist and being a good Maslam or synonymous.

1055
01:51:15.199 --> 01:51:21.800
<v Speaker 2>And where those tendencies converge, it's in the person of

1056
01:51:22.279 --> 01:51:26.960
<v Speaker 2>the Islamic national socialist political soldier, exemplified by the Imam

1057
01:51:27.600 --> 01:51:29.640
<v Speaker 2>you know, who was both a cleric and a warrior,

1058
01:51:30.399 --> 01:51:33.920
<v Speaker 2>you know, and who you know and and in and

1059
01:51:35.279 --> 01:51:42.279
<v Speaker 2>not just a commander in in the path of Jahad

1060
01:51:42.359 --> 01:51:50.119
<v Speaker 2>that we are on, but you know, also a spiritual guide.

1061
01:51:50.840 --> 01:51:58.000
<v Speaker 2>The uh Ralph von Hagendorff, who was a career uh

1062
01:51:59.279 --> 01:52:07.640
<v Speaker 2>vermacht Off and an expert in military jurisprudence. In May

1063
01:52:07.760 --> 01:52:17.039
<v Speaker 2>nineteen forty three he issued a formal recommendation that in

1064
01:52:17.159 --> 01:52:27.680
<v Speaker 2>Moslem formations, before of course martial as sigence punishment to

1065
01:52:27.880 --> 01:52:33.239
<v Speaker 2>a defendant, there's to be a consultation with the divisional

1066
01:52:33.359 --> 01:52:40.960
<v Speaker 2>Mulla on the scope and severity of punishment to legitimize

1067
01:52:41.039 --> 01:52:47.520
<v Speaker 2>the military justice system. And this was huge too. Hagendorff

1068
01:52:47.760 --> 01:52:52.279
<v Speaker 2>recalled also that he said often these emams. What they'd

1069
01:52:52.319 --> 01:52:59.239
<v Speaker 2>recommend was usually substantially more severe than what the secular

1070
01:53:00.000 --> 01:53:03.600
<v Speaker 2>go to German military justice and the vermach and Sys

1071
01:53:04.640 --> 01:53:14.279
<v Speaker 2>otherwise demanded. You know, so in practice, these emails acted

1072
01:53:14.319 --> 01:53:23.239
<v Speaker 2>as intermediaries with a European and Christian military justice system

1073
01:53:23.800 --> 01:53:33.039
<v Speaker 2>that nevertheless, you know, abided Islamic principles and its punitive aspect.

1074
01:53:33.439 --> 01:53:39.760
<v Speaker 2>And this this insinuated legitimacy into it that otherwise would

1075
01:53:39.800 --> 01:53:49.479
<v Speaker 2>be lacking. Around the same time May ninety forty three,

1076
01:53:50.199 --> 01:53:58.039
<v Speaker 2>gottlab Burger he issued a formal decree from the main Office.

1077
01:53:58.800 --> 01:54:03.920
<v Speaker 2>It was on the quote ideological spiritual education of them

1078
01:54:04.079 --> 01:54:10.239
<v Speaker 2>of the Maslim ss divisions, and it formally identified emovs

1079
01:54:10.279 --> 01:54:17.760
<v Speaker 2>as the most important transmitters of political and religious education

1080
01:54:19.000 --> 01:54:26.439
<v Speaker 2>within Moslim formations. It made clear that the emphasis was

1081
01:54:26.439 --> 01:54:30.520
<v Speaker 2>to be on the common enemies of Germans and Moslims,

1082
01:54:31.800 --> 01:54:44.439
<v Speaker 2>you know, Judaism, quote Anglo Americanism, communism, freemasonry, secularism, you know,

1083
01:54:44.479 --> 01:54:53.279
<v Speaker 2>and that these shared ideals, including militancy and the marshal ethos,

1084
01:54:53.520 --> 01:54:59.039
<v Speaker 2>the role of morality, of tradition, of upright manliness, and

1085
01:54:59.119 --> 01:55:03.439
<v Speaker 2>you know, like all this is what brought together National

1086
01:55:03.520 --> 01:55:06.880
<v Speaker 2>Socialists of of of different faiths, you know, whether they

1087
01:55:06.960 --> 01:55:15.439
<v Speaker 2>be the Protestant, Catholic or Moslem. And you know, again Burger,

1088
01:55:17.279 --> 01:55:20.359
<v Speaker 2>the more I dive into I was I was researching

1089
01:55:20.439 --> 01:55:27.079
<v Speaker 2>his battle record and his career in the ss ohing

1090
01:55:27.199 --> 01:55:32.119
<v Speaker 2>to like a different, a related but distinguishable subject matter,

1091
01:55:32.159 --> 01:55:35.439
<v Speaker 2>and I he he was just an amazing guy. You

1092
01:55:35.520 --> 01:55:39.319
<v Speaker 2>really only find footnotes about him as oh he was

1093
01:55:39.319 --> 01:55:42.960
<v Speaker 2>this big war criminal in this brute or he's described,

1094
01:55:43.640 --> 01:55:47.119
<v Speaker 2>you know, kind of similar terms to Martin Borman. It's just, oh,

1095
01:55:47.159 --> 01:55:48.960
<v Speaker 2>he was just a sort of creet and this function here,

1096
01:55:49.279 --> 01:55:57.359
<v Speaker 2>not not at all. And for a military man he

1097
01:55:57.359 --> 01:56:02.920
<v Speaker 2>he had, he had a lot of deep esoteric interests.

1098
01:56:02.920 --> 01:56:09.079
<v Speaker 2>And I I think that Boa has attracted those types frankly,

1099
01:56:09.560 --> 01:56:12.840
<v Speaker 2>you know, not not just romantics and dreamers, but there

1100
01:56:12.920 --> 01:56:16.479
<v Speaker 2>was Orientalism was literally coded into it, you know. I mean,

1101
01:56:16.520 --> 01:56:22.640
<v Speaker 2>that's why the Proud and Book on Genghis Khan was

1102
01:56:22.640 --> 01:56:30.159
<v Speaker 2>required reading at SSH Younger school, and of course Yaka

1103
01:56:30.159 --> 01:56:33.359
<v Speaker 2>and Piper wrote his senior thesis on the Proud and

1104
01:56:33.399 --> 01:56:38.800
<v Speaker 2>Book and Genghis Khan. But I mean, I think it's

1105
01:56:39.079 --> 01:56:43.800
<v Speaker 2>I Schopenhower was an Orientalist and I you know, Chopenhower

1106
01:56:43.880 --> 01:56:50.279
<v Speaker 2>more than Nietzsche, was the patron philosopher of the of

1107
01:56:50.359 --> 01:56:54.079
<v Speaker 2>the German, right I think. But yeah, we're coming up

1108
01:56:54.079 --> 01:56:59.880
<v Speaker 2>on the hour, man. I I uh, I hope he

1109
01:57:00.079 --> 01:57:04.159
<v Speaker 2>are finding this educational and interesting and we'll we'll wrap

1110
01:57:04.159 --> 01:57:07.159
<v Speaker 2>it up the next episode, I promise. Awesome.

1111
01:57:07.319 --> 01:57:09.359
<v Speaker 1>Awesome, That's what I was gonna ask if we if

1112
01:57:09.399 --> 01:57:12.560
<v Speaker 1>you have another episode in this and is is that

1113
01:57:12.640 --> 01:57:16.079
<v Speaker 1>the app are you going to be getting into post war?

1114
01:57:16.840 --> 01:57:19.760
<v Speaker 2>I'd like to do war? Okay, yeah, I mean, I

1115
01:57:19.760 --> 01:57:22.439
<v Speaker 2>mean it's your show literally, like I mean, if you're

1116
01:57:22.439 --> 01:57:25.399
<v Speaker 2>a minimal of that of the subs. The main thing

1117
01:57:25.439 --> 01:57:28.359
<v Speaker 2>is that you're happy and the subs are finding this interesting,

1118
01:57:28.640 --> 01:57:30.399
<v Speaker 2>and then I promise we'll get back to the thirty

1119
01:57:30.479 --> 01:57:31.039
<v Speaker 2>years War.

1120
01:57:31.840 --> 01:57:36.880
<v Speaker 1>No problem at all. Remind everybody go over to real

1121
01:57:36.960 --> 01:57:41.680
<v Speaker 1>Thomas seven seven seven dot substack dot com. It's probably

1122
01:57:41.680 --> 01:57:43.920
<v Speaker 1>the best way to connect to Thomas, and can go

1123
01:57:43.960 --> 01:57:49.840
<v Speaker 1>to his website Thomas seven seven seven dot com. The

1124
01:57:49.920 --> 01:57:53.119
<v Speaker 1>T and Thomas is a seven and basically you can

1125
01:57:53.159 --> 01:57:57.239
<v Speaker 1>connect to him everywhere from there. From those places, it's

1126
01:57:57.239 --> 01:57:59.600
<v Speaker 1>a firm Thank you, Thomas.

1127
01:57:59.600 --> 01:58:01.199
<v Speaker 2>Appreciate than Youddy.

1128
01:58:02.880 --> 01:58:05.399
<v Speaker 1>I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekiniana show.

1129
01:58:06.119 --> 01:58:10.079
<v Speaker 1>Thomas is here and a little meeting series doing on

1130
01:58:10.319 --> 01:58:15.800
<v Speaker 1>Islam and the Third Reich and Germany in general. We're

1131
01:58:15.800 --> 01:58:19.600
<v Speaker 1>going to close that out today. So you know, what

1132
01:58:19.640 --> 01:58:22.119
<v Speaker 1>we've heard from the subs is they're really enjoying this.

1133
01:58:22.640 --> 01:58:27.319
<v Speaker 1>So thank you for the recommendation on this great subject.

1134
01:58:27.479 --> 01:58:30.960
<v Speaker 1>I've learned a lot and you know, take it away.

1135
01:58:31.479 --> 01:58:34.560
<v Speaker 2>Thank you. That makes me very happy, and I appreciate

1136
01:58:34.560 --> 01:58:39.680
<v Speaker 2>the subs and their kind words and feedback. That's essential.

1137
01:58:40.920 --> 01:58:43.439
<v Speaker 2>This is an important subject matter for a lot of reasons.

1138
01:58:43.600 --> 01:58:48.840
<v Speaker 2>I generally agree with Aarm's and Lolty. Islamic dialectics are

1139
01:58:49.000 --> 01:58:57.359
<v Speaker 2>very important to the post Cold War historical process in

1140
01:58:57.439 --> 01:59:01.840
<v Speaker 2>conceptual terms. I don't think that needs to be said additionally,

1141
01:59:02.920 --> 01:59:06.279
<v Speaker 2>and I'm including this as sort of an addendum to

1142
01:59:06.319 --> 01:59:10.000
<v Speaker 2>my manuscript. That's one of the reasons I haven't submitted

1143
01:59:10.039 --> 01:59:14.359
<v Speaker 2>it for formal editing to a publisher. Yet. There's this myth,

1144
01:59:14.479 --> 01:59:19.439
<v Speaker 2>some of which derives from the testimony of Albert Spear,

1145
01:59:19.479 --> 01:59:23.960
<v Speaker 2>which I consider it to be not remotely credible. Obviously,

1146
01:59:25.359 --> 01:59:32.720
<v Speaker 2>he described the final months of the German Reich as

1147
01:59:34.800 --> 01:59:41.600
<v Speaker 2>Hitler developing this sort of nihilistic apathy punctuated by fits

1148
01:59:41.640 --> 01:59:45.560
<v Speaker 2>of rage and an impulse to sort of burn everything down.

1149
01:59:47.079 --> 01:59:52.039
<v Speaker 2>Hitler's actions don't indicate that. And I've emphasized I'm bringing

1150
01:59:52.039 --> 01:59:53.720
<v Speaker 2>this back to the subject matter. I'm not on a

1151
01:59:53.760 --> 01:59:59.960
<v Speaker 2>CENL tangent. I promise I emphasize the fact of don

1152
02:00:00.000 --> 02:00:06.760
<v Speaker 2>and it's being designated as successor not just because Hitler

1153
02:00:07.319 --> 02:00:09.840
<v Speaker 2>thought that he was a man the Allies would find

1154
02:00:09.840 --> 02:00:13.640
<v Speaker 2>acceptable and they did. Other than the Yodel, he was

1155
02:00:13.680 --> 02:00:17.680
<v Speaker 2>really the only number of defendant that people in the

1156
02:00:17.800 --> 02:00:21.960
<v Speaker 2>United Kingdom, not just the Admiralty, but a lot of

1157
02:00:21.960 --> 02:00:30.920
<v Speaker 2>the aristocracy and even people in the war cabinet came

1158
02:00:30.960 --> 02:00:37.159
<v Speaker 2>to the defense of. But also there was an understanding

1159
02:00:37.600 --> 02:00:44.159
<v Speaker 2>that the post war world would need some sort of

1160
02:00:44.199 --> 02:00:49.920
<v Speaker 2>resistance legacy if Europe was going to survive, and if

1161
02:00:49.920 --> 02:00:53.479
<v Speaker 2>the national socialist cause was going to survive, albeit in

1162
02:00:53.560 --> 02:01:05.640
<v Speaker 2>a historically contingent configure. A And that's a subject for

1163
02:01:05.680 --> 02:01:07.399
<v Speaker 2>a whole wet a whole series on that, And like

1164
02:01:07.439 --> 02:01:12.920
<v Speaker 2>I said, I'm dedicating the final third approximately of my

1165
02:01:13.119 --> 02:01:17.479
<v Speaker 2>manuscript to the subject matter. One of the only authors

1166
02:01:17.520 --> 02:01:22.000
<v Speaker 2>who I think truly understands that and who really understands

1167
02:01:22.000 --> 02:01:25.319
<v Speaker 2>that there was a fascist international of a sort during

1168
02:01:25.319 --> 02:01:30.000
<v Speaker 2>the Cold War, and beyond is Kevin Coogan. He was

1169
02:01:30.000 --> 02:01:33.600
<v Speaker 2>an unusual guy. He wrote a biography of Francis Yaki

1170
02:01:33.680 --> 02:01:36.279
<v Speaker 2>he called Dreamer of the Day Francis perkerct Yaki in

1171
02:01:36.319 --> 02:01:40.640
<v Speaker 2>the Post were Fascist International. This was released in nineteen

1172
02:01:40.720 --> 02:01:45.399
<v Speaker 2>ninety nine. It's actually a fantastic book. H Ke Thompson

1173
02:01:47.119 --> 02:01:51.479
<v Speaker 2>contributed to it and allowed his testimony to be included.

1174
02:01:52.119 --> 02:01:57.680
<v Speaker 2>Elsa Davitt, who was a longtime mistress of Francis Yaki.

1175
02:01:59.399 --> 02:02:05.800
<v Speaker 2>She participated in and proffered a lot of her testimony,

1176
02:02:06.680 --> 02:02:10.359
<v Speaker 2>as well as personal effects and papers that belonged to

1177
02:02:10.439 --> 02:02:15.880
<v Speaker 2>Yachi into things. You know, Coogan's definitely a left winger,

1178
02:02:15.920 --> 02:02:22.000
<v Speaker 2>but of a more serious type. And I mean the

1179
02:02:22.039 --> 02:02:26.159
<v Speaker 2>fact that some of these personages we're willing to participate

1180
02:02:26.159 --> 02:02:29.479
<v Speaker 2>in the book project speaks for itself. It's not a

1181
02:02:29.479 --> 02:02:34.520
<v Speaker 2>purely punitive treatment, but the real value of it, especially

1182
02:02:35.960 --> 02:02:42.039
<v Speaker 2>if you're reading it as a researcher. There's a couple

1183
02:02:42.079 --> 02:02:46.760
<v Speaker 2>of hundred pages of footnotes and endnotes that are really incredible,

1184
02:02:47.680 --> 02:02:55.199
<v Speaker 2>including a substantial amount of material about Johann van Leer's

1185
02:02:55.239 --> 02:03:01.960
<v Speaker 2>about They're vague and the National Socialists distance in Argentina

1186
02:03:02.079 --> 02:03:08.399
<v Speaker 2>and then in the Near East, and I highly recommend

1187
02:03:08.399 --> 02:03:12.840
<v Speaker 2>that book to students of the subject matter as well

1188
02:03:12.880 --> 02:03:19.399
<v Speaker 2>as people who are just curious students of history want

1189
02:03:19.399 --> 02:03:21.800
<v Speaker 2>to get a better understanding of the subject matter. But

1190
02:03:21.960 --> 02:03:24.079
<v Speaker 2>I raised Coogan not just because I like that book,

1191
02:03:24.359 --> 02:03:30.479
<v Speaker 2>but you know, again, he's one of the only authors

1192
02:03:30.520 --> 02:03:33.600
<v Speaker 2>I know of who has a deep understanding of this

1193
02:03:33.640 --> 02:03:42.720
<v Speaker 2>phenomenon and the efforts, particularly of the SS and the

1194
02:03:42.920 --> 02:03:50.319
<v Speaker 2>SD to curate a national socialist sensibility among Maslim populations.

1195
02:03:51.439 --> 02:03:56.880
<v Speaker 2>This ramped up in earnest in the final year and

1196
02:03:56.920 --> 02:04:00.399
<v Speaker 2>a half of the war, when it became clear that

1197
02:04:02.920 --> 02:04:06.640
<v Speaker 2>en zeg was no longer possible. And it's not because

1198
02:04:06.680 --> 02:04:17.000
<v Speaker 2>everybody was delusional. It's not owing to some desperation born

1199
02:04:17.079 --> 02:04:26.399
<v Speaker 2>of manpower shortages or any of those confabulations. It was

1200
02:04:26.920 --> 02:04:36.239
<v Speaker 2>because at base and particularly in the s S, the

1201
02:04:36.359 --> 02:04:48.960
<v Speaker 2>truly diehard National socialists who were ideologically committed. They had

1202
02:04:49.000 --> 02:04:57.479
<v Speaker 2>a profoundly Hegelian view of the war and of the

1203
02:04:57.600 --> 02:05:03.800
<v Speaker 2>historical process generally. And of course Germany was not a

1204
02:05:03.880 --> 02:05:09.079
<v Speaker 2>stranger to these sorts of apocalyptic conditions. We're talking about

1205
02:05:09.119 --> 02:05:11.560
<v Speaker 2>our thirty years War series. I think in the first

1206
02:05:11.560 --> 02:05:15.760
<v Speaker 2>episode we were talking about a Hitler himself and Spear,

1207
02:05:15.800 --> 02:05:22.840
<v Speaker 2>speaking of Spear as well as many personages within the

1208
02:05:22.920 --> 02:05:26.439
<v Speaker 2>traditional military establishment as well as the National Socialist cadre

1209
02:05:26.600 --> 02:05:33.119
<v Speaker 2>that took over the government. The historical polestar of these

1210
02:05:33.159 --> 02:05:36.560
<v Speaker 2>people was the Thirty Years War and the destruction of Germany,

1211
02:05:36.640 --> 02:05:39.880
<v Speaker 2>the destruction of the First Reich and the scattering of

1212
02:05:40.920 --> 02:05:47.840
<v Speaker 2>the German racial organism to the proverbial four wins. And

1213
02:05:47.880 --> 02:05:53.800
<v Speaker 2>in their mind, it had taken centuries to reconstitute the

1214
02:05:53.880 --> 02:06:06.560
<v Speaker 2>German nation and to bring years into a organizational modality

1215
02:06:07.159 --> 02:06:13.720
<v Speaker 2>whereby it could fulfill its historical mission, and in their estimation,

1216
02:06:13.880 --> 02:06:21.760
<v Speaker 2>this had taken close to three centuries. So there was

1217
02:06:22.039 --> 02:06:28.840
<v Speaker 2>an understanding that a similar process was emergent in nineteen

1218
02:06:28.840 --> 02:06:34.399
<v Speaker 2>forty four forty five, and there was the added challenge

1219
02:06:34.439 --> 02:06:41.199
<v Speaker 2>of a world dominated by the Communists and by the

1220
02:06:41.239 --> 02:06:47.560
<v Speaker 2>American Zionist occupation that was looming. Both of these challenges

1221
02:06:47.600 --> 02:06:56.119
<v Speaker 2>were related. That's why these ideological schema were quite literally allied,

1222
02:06:59.720 --> 02:07:02.920
<v Speaker 2>but they were also very distinguishable in terms of what

1223
02:07:02.960 --> 02:07:06.600
<v Speaker 2>they represented and what they were trying to accomplish, and

1224
02:07:06.640 --> 02:07:15.600
<v Speaker 2>in terms of creating a global political regime and the

1225
02:07:15.720 --> 02:07:26.079
<v Speaker 2>tactics required to counteract those efforts to break people up.

1226
02:07:26.119 --> 02:07:34.079
<v Speaker 2>Their identitarian characteristics and historical memory were somewhat different depending

1227
02:07:34.119 --> 02:07:39.279
<v Speaker 2>on whether the populations in question were those situated in

1228
02:07:39.319 --> 02:07:44.279
<v Speaker 2>the East or in the West, and Maslim populations were

1229
02:07:44.319 --> 02:07:48.399
<v Speaker 2>under unique pressure from the communists, and that this endured

1230
02:07:48.399 --> 02:07:54.479
<v Speaker 2>throughout the existence of the Soviet Union. The Islamic revolt

1231
02:07:55.159 --> 02:08:05.119
<v Speaker 2>was one of many proximate causes that ultimately brought brought

1232
02:08:05.159 --> 02:08:14.079
<v Speaker 2>the Soviet Union down. I think that's irrebutable. So that's

1233
02:08:14.079 --> 02:08:18.840
<v Speaker 2>something that is important to understand here, and that's one

1234
02:08:18.840 --> 02:08:22.720
<v Speaker 2>of the reasons why this remains a relevant, irrelevant subject matter.

1235
02:08:22.920 --> 02:08:30.880
<v Speaker 2>It's not just some sort of trivial curiosity related to

1236
02:08:33.000 --> 02:08:41.279
<v Speaker 2>aspects of the war that are sort of not commonly emphasized,

1237
02:08:43.319 --> 02:08:48.960
<v Speaker 2>but the role of the grand movety to to change

1238
02:08:49.319 --> 02:08:54.760
<v Speaker 2>focused just a little bit. The way that he's cast

1239
02:08:55.039 --> 02:09:00.720
<v Speaker 2>in the historical record is somewhat incorrect. There's people with

1240
02:09:00.800 --> 02:09:05.119
<v Speaker 2>a superficial understanding of national socialism, and there's some Palestinian

1241
02:09:05.199 --> 02:09:11.479
<v Speaker 2>liberation is to mean well, but they they're somewhat conceptually

1242
02:09:11.520 --> 02:09:15.880
<v Speaker 2>impoverished in their understanding of the historical record. They cast

1243
02:09:15.920 --> 02:09:22.439
<v Speaker 2>the moved he as almost like a Palestinian Naser. That's

1244
02:09:22.600 --> 02:09:27.920
<v Speaker 2>not really accurate. I mean the point that I believe

1245
02:09:28.159 --> 02:09:34.359
<v Speaker 2>if he can be analogized to any contemporary it'd be

1246
02:09:34.439 --> 02:09:40.279
<v Speaker 2>said Kutu. And if you know anything about Islam, and

1247
02:09:40.359 --> 02:09:46.600
<v Speaker 2>particularly highest Sunni Islam, the role of a mofti is

1248
02:09:46.680 --> 02:09:54.000
<v Speaker 2>not that of a political soldier. It's different. There's definitely

1249
02:09:54.000 --> 02:09:59.920
<v Speaker 2>a partisan aspect that goes up saying but the move

1250
02:10:00.119 --> 02:10:04.199
<v Speaker 2>He also he didn't have a sense of pan Arabism.

1251
02:10:04.760 --> 02:10:08.000
<v Speaker 2>What became sort of the rallying cry of the of

1252
02:10:08.039 --> 02:10:12.279
<v Speaker 2>the resistance in the Near East, which was a combination

1253
02:10:12.479 --> 02:10:24.159
<v Speaker 2>of pan Arabism and a an East block aligned but

1254
02:10:24.279 --> 02:10:35.000
<v Speaker 2>this but discernibly non communist uh sort of militant socialism.

1255
02:10:35.199 --> 02:10:37.680
<v Speaker 2>That was not what he viewed as the way forward

1256
02:10:37.680 --> 02:10:41.279
<v Speaker 2>for Palestinians. And he was absolutely a pan Islamist, but

1257
02:10:41.319 --> 02:10:47.880
<v Speaker 2>he didn't he didn't view pan Arabisms as a meaningful concept. Then, frankly,

1258
02:10:47.880 --> 02:10:57.479
<v Speaker 2>it's not. On the other side, Zionists then and now

1259
02:10:59.600 --> 02:11:02.239
<v Speaker 2>have tried cast the move he as sort of a

1260
02:11:02.279 --> 02:11:12.520
<v Speaker 2>Palestinian Kodriano or some sort of or some sort of

1261
02:11:12.920 --> 02:11:17.199
<v Speaker 2>ethnosectarian national wist who's a mirror of themselves, of themselves

1262
02:11:18.960 --> 02:11:27.560
<v Speaker 2>who wanted to annihilate Jewelry owing to some sort of

1263
02:11:27.640 --> 02:11:36.279
<v Speaker 2>highly binary, zero sum concept of racial and sectarian struggle

1264
02:11:36.279 --> 02:11:43.960
<v Speaker 2>in the region. That's naked propaganda. And interestingly, when people

1265
02:11:44.000 --> 02:11:50.319
<v Speaker 2>in the Churchill government, who are particularly sympathetic to designs perspective,

1266
02:11:50.640 --> 02:11:54.039
<v Speaker 2>tried to convince the Home Office of these things and

1267
02:11:54.239 --> 02:11:57.319
<v Speaker 2>as far as trying to push the British authorities is

1268
02:11:57.399 --> 02:12:02.000
<v Speaker 2>trying to capture the Al Husseini. This was quickly quashed

1269
02:12:02.840 --> 02:12:11.520
<v Speaker 2>and British intelligence simply refused to pursue it. And there

1270
02:12:11.560 --> 02:12:20.600
<v Speaker 2>was an internal memo that indicated that this was a

1271
02:12:20.640 --> 02:12:27.920
<v Speaker 2>propaganda effort devised by Zionus on the ground, who were

1272
02:12:28.000 --> 02:12:35.840
<v Speaker 2>concerned about a leadership cadre reconstituting among their enemies, which

1273
02:12:35.880 --> 02:12:45.239
<v Speaker 2>they pretty successfully decapitated by this juncture. And to be

1274
02:12:45.319 --> 02:12:48.800
<v Speaker 2>clear that mof he was in exile from nineteen thirty

1275
02:12:48.800 --> 02:12:55.359
<v Speaker 2>six one. Going to the Arab revolt, the Arab revolt

1276
02:12:55.439 --> 02:12:59.800
<v Speaker 2>is complicated. I don't want to deep dive into that

1277
02:13:00.039 --> 02:13:05.399
<v Speaker 2>right now. Briefly, it was a general strike. It was

1278
02:13:05.439 --> 02:13:11.600
<v Speaker 2>it uprising as more and more European Jews streamed into Palestine.

1279
02:13:12.159 --> 02:13:14.840
<v Speaker 2>It became clear that the Palestinians were going to be

1280
02:13:14.880 --> 02:13:20.920
<v Speaker 2>ethnically cleansed, okay, And we talked about how the the

1281
02:13:21.000 --> 02:13:28.359
<v Speaker 2>British were inconsistent and how they responded to ethnosectarian violence

1282
02:13:28.399 --> 02:13:39.079
<v Speaker 2>and you know, categorical attacks upon Palestinians to realize annihilation

1283
02:13:40.439 --> 02:13:46.680
<v Speaker 2>oriented goals by the Desions. So this represented an existential fear.

1284
02:13:47.119 --> 02:13:53.359
<v Speaker 2>It wasn't just a question of resistance to Palestine being

1285
02:13:53.359 --> 02:14:03.640
<v Speaker 2>dominated by a hostile Jewish majority. On the ground, there

1286
02:14:03.720 --> 02:14:10.840
<v Speaker 2>was an element among the Palestinians under Arms two that

1287
02:14:11.039 --> 02:14:14.840
<v Speaker 2>had always favored an armed struggle, and their reasoning was,

1288
02:14:16.439 --> 02:14:22.960
<v Speaker 2>we've got to pull the trigger now before the situation

1289
02:14:23.119 --> 02:14:28.239
<v Speaker 2>deteriorate the point that it's no longer possible. There was

1290
02:14:28.279 --> 02:14:40.199
<v Speaker 2>a a pious Islamist organization that was also highly militant,

1291
02:14:40.840 --> 02:14:46.840
<v Speaker 2>led by eas Alden al Cassam. He was a shakh

1292
02:14:48.760 --> 02:14:52.520
<v Speaker 2>and something of a lesser aristocrat, but it was also

1293
02:14:52.560 --> 02:14:56.439
<v Speaker 2>a dedicated revolutionary and as early as the mid nineties

1294
02:14:56.479 --> 02:15:02.600
<v Speaker 2>twenties he was demanding that money that was coming into

1295
02:15:04.920 --> 02:15:09.279
<v Speaker 2>mosques the equivalent of alms, be spent on arms and

1296
02:15:10.479 --> 02:15:17.199
<v Speaker 2>military needs rather than on you know, proselytizing and and

1297
02:15:17.359 --> 02:15:24.039
<v Speaker 2>traditional ecclesiastical to activities and things of that nature, you know,

1298
02:15:24.079 --> 02:15:29.199
<v Speaker 2>the equivalent they're in. This caused tension between him and

1299
02:15:29.239 --> 02:15:36.840
<v Speaker 2>al Husseini. He'd approached al Husseini and and tried to

1300
02:15:36.880 --> 02:15:41.000
<v Speaker 2>cultivate his friendship and asked to be brought on to

1301
02:15:41.079 --> 02:15:46.039
<v Speaker 2>the Supreme Moslem Council as an itinerant preacher of sorts,

1302
02:15:47.239 --> 02:15:53.199
<v Speaker 2>and Husseini turned him away, but did help him find

1303
02:15:54.640 --> 02:15:59.239
<v Speaker 2>a permanent place and a mosque that would be more

1304
02:15:59.279 --> 02:16:06.319
<v Speaker 2>receptive to his revolutionary concepts. This is due to some

1305
02:16:06.439 --> 02:16:10.680
<v Speaker 2>people too, including again some Palestinian liberationists who mean well

1306
02:16:10.800 --> 02:16:16.720
<v Speaker 2>today as being perfidest and Alossini being political. I don't

1307
02:16:16.720 --> 02:16:19.760
<v Speaker 2>think that's fair. And Alssini also knew that his people

1308
02:16:20.039 --> 02:16:25.520
<v Speaker 2>weren't in a position to win at that moment. He

1309
02:16:25.640 --> 02:16:28.840
<v Speaker 2>was continuing to try and curate a relationship with the

1310
02:16:28.880 --> 02:16:38.559
<v Speaker 2>British too, out of necessity, owing to again the hopelessness

1311
02:16:38.559 --> 02:16:43.319
<v Speaker 2>of the military situation at that juncture. But as it

1312
02:16:43.440 --> 02:16:48.799
<v Speaker 2>happened in nineteen thirty six, a general strike did kick off,

1313
02:16:49.079 --> 02:16:52.840
<v Speaker 2>and once the uprising began, the move he stowed with Palestine.

1314
02:16:54.360 --> 02:16:58.600
<v Speaker 2>He was very much accused though, of fermenting this and

1315
02:16:58.639 --> 02:17:06.079
<v Speaker 2>being a leader of it. The British commanders on the ground,

1316
02:17:06.600 --> 02:17:11.079
<v Speaker 2>who he curated a relationship with, I believe they talked

1317
02:17:11.120 --> 02:17:16.680
<v Speaker 2>to the Foreign Office and British intelligence and that's why

1318
02:17:16.719 --> 02:17:21.399
<v Speaker 2>the move he wasn't harmed. He was allowed to live

1319
02:17:21.440 --> 02:17:30.200
<v Speaker 2>in exile relatively undisturbed at that juncture, because you know,

1320
02:17:30.280 --> 02:17:36.120
<v Speaker 2>it was it was clear that he wasn't devising a

1321
02:17:38.200 --> 02:17:50.799
<v Speaker 2>revolutionary resistance movement, He wasn't trying to force a kinetic

1322
02:17:51.600 --> 02:18:04.280
<v Speaker 2>outcome to then extend conditions. But this was when al

1323
02:18:04.440 --> 02:18:09.600
<v Speaker 2>was saying he began approaching representatives of the Third Reich,

1324
02:18:09.959 --> 02:18:12.879
<v Speaker 2>and they began approaching him, and we talked about gottlab

1325
02:18:12.879 --> 02:18:22.440
<v Speaker 2>Burger and elements within the both the algass and in

1326
02:18:25.319 --> 02:18:34.559
<v Speaker 2>various party offices who viewed this as imperative, and Aloix

1327
02:18:34.559 --> 02:18:37.799
<v Speaker 2>saying he only met with Hitler face to face once

1328
02:18:38.040 --> 02:18:40.440
<v Speaker 2>in November nineteen forty one. But the fact that he

1329
02:18:40.479 --> 02:18:43.440
<v Speaker 2>met him at all is remarkable because it was not

1330
02:18:43.799 --> 02:18:46.959
<v Speaker 2>easy to get access to Hitler. What he was able

1331
02:18:47.040 --> 02:18:56.000
<v Speaker 2>to procure Hitler guaranteed and he convinced al Duce to

1332
02:18:56.399 --> 02:19:05.600
<v Speaker 2>co sign this guarantee that after the defeat of the

1333
02:19:05.639 --> 02:19:10.440
<v Speaker 2>British Empire, Palestine would become an Arab state and it

1334
02:19:10.479 --> 02:19:15.239
<v Speaker 2>would be ethnically cleansed of Jews. Whether the Mufti would

1335
02:19:15.239 --> 02:19:26.319
<v Speaker 2>become the ruler of that state, I find that unlikely. Again,

1336
02:19:26.440 --> 02:19:35.319
<v Speaker 2>there's it's complicated how traditional Islamic authority is organized. You

1337
02:19:35.360 --> 02:19:37.000
<v Speaker 2>need to be clear. People get the people have this

1338
02:19:37.040 --> 02:19:39.799
<v Speaker 2>misconception because first of all, the look at the place

1339
02:19:39.840 --> 02:19:42.239
<v Speaker 2>like Iran, and of course there's a there's a sectarian

1340
02:19:42.239 --> 02:19:46.280
<v Speaker 2>divide there because She and Sunni are very different, and

1341
02:19:46.360 --> 02:19:53.479
<v Speaker 2>even within those broad sects, there's there's there's there's differences

1342
02:19:53.479 --> 02:19:59.040
<v Speaker 2>within Sunni Islam and She Islam that are profound. The

1343
02:19:59.079 --> 02:20:02.799
<v Speaker 2>Iranian government and called itself the revolutionary government because it's

1344
02:20:02.840 --> 02:20:07.280
<v Speaker 2>not this reactionary regime. The FUCO one of the few

1345
02:20:07.440 --> 02:20:17.000
<v Speaker 2>essays he wrote that oriented towards ideological practice, that that's

1346
02:20:17.520 --> 02:20:22.159
<v Speaker 2>a in a you know, direct capacity. He went to

1347
02:20:22.200 --> 02:20:29.959
<v Speaker 2>Tehran as the revolution was underway, and he made the

1348
02:20:30.000 --> 02:20:34.280
<v Speaker 2>point that this was something people hadn't seen before. It

1349
02:20:34.360 --> 02:20:40.120
<v Speaker 2>wasn't some reactionary regime of clerics. It was very much

1350
02:20:40.200 --> 02:20:46.719
<v Speaker 2>an Islamic movement, but it was a hybrid ideology that

1351
02:20:48.399 --> 02:20:53.719
<v Speaker 2>was a truly third position as tendency in the true sense.

1352
02:20:54.680 --> 02:21:03.360
<v Speaker 2>Okay Al Hussini didn't represent some Sunni of that. And

1353
02:21:03.559 --> 02:21:12.120
<v Speaker 2>also once what became the Palestinian Liberation movement, it's proverbial

1354
02:21:12.239 --> 02:21:16.879
<v Speaker 2>dna is in the Arab revolt and in the men

1355
02:21:17.040 --> 02:21:25.360
<v Speaker 2>who they took inspiration from and the move He wasn't

1356
02:21:25.440 --> 02:21:30.280
<v Speaker 2>really part of that. You know, he definitely was a partisan,

1357
02:21:30.680 --> 02:21:33.840
<v Speaker 2>and he took on the function of a political soldier

1358
02:21:34.559 --> 02:21:44.120
<v Speaker 2>as he became insinuated into the SS organization. But military

1359
02:21:44.200 --> 02:21:50.959
<v Speaker 2>command and political credibility became inextricably bound up in theater,

1360
02:21:52.520 --> 02:21:57.520
<v Speaker 2>and that some of that duras to this day. But

1361
02:21:59.760 --> 02:22:03.399
<v Speaker 2>you know, it's not this idea that the move He

1362
02:22:03.440 --> 02:22:12.319
<v Speaker 2>simply approached Hitler because he had ambitions to become Emperor

1363
02:22:12.399 --> 02:22:22.040
<v Speaker 2>of Palestine or the the boss of the Arab Committee

1364
02:22:22.120 --> 02:22:28.959
<v Speaker 2>or something, and wanted to parlay that into authority over

1365
02:22:29.680 --> 02:22:32.920
<v Speaker 2>a Palestinian ethno state that was going to emerge at

1366
02:22:33.360 --> 02:22:38.239
<v Speaker 2>NC guy that I don't think that's credible. What was

1367
02:22:38.280 --> 02:22:42.360
<v Speaker 2>important was that he got a guarantee from Hitler. He

1368
02:22:42.399 --> 02:22:48.000
<v Speaker 2>had the patronage of the Axis, and it guaranteed that

1369
02:22:48.079 --> 02:22:50.760
<v Speaker 2>forces would be brought to bear and Hitler made clear

1370
02:22:50.799 --> 02:22:54.319
<v Speaker 2>to him. Hitler said he believed in the Arab people,

1371
02:22:54.360 --> 02:22:56.600
<v Speaker 2>and he believed in the in the Santy's cause, which

1372
02:22:57.000 --> 02:23:00.159
<v Speaker 2>I think was true. But he also said that the

1373
02:23:00.200 --> 02:23:05.319
<v Speaker 2>German Reich had essential interests in the region and they

1374
02:23:05.360 --> 02:23:11.879
<v Speaker 2>expected the Palestinians to help those things be realized. So

1375
02:23:13.120 --> 02:23:16.280
<v Speaker 2>obviously it was a real politic aspect of this too.

1376
02:23:17.040 --> 02:23:25.200
<v Speaker 2>But both men came to realize also that this had

1377
02:23:25.239 --> 02:23:32.079
<v Speaker 2>become a planetary struggle, you know, And by November nineteen

1378
02:23:32.079 --> 02:23:37.600
<v Speaker 2>forty one, America wasn't as a I mean America the

1379
02:23:37.639 --> 02:23:39.959
<v Speaker 2>fact it was at war with Germany from September ninety

1380
02:23:40.000 --> 02:23:50.040
<v Speaker 2>forty one onwards, the Reich was the Wehrmacht was closing

1381
02:23:50.079 --> 02:24:01.760
<v Speaker 2>in on Moscow, and it became clear that the struggle

1382
02:24:01.879 --> 02:24:07.239
<v Speaker 2>was global in character, and even after final victory was realized,

1383
02:24:09.239 --> 02:24:13.719
<v Speaker 2>which appeared to be eminent as a November nineteen forty one,

1384
02:24:14.120 --> 02:24:28.479
<v Speaker 2>no Germany needed allies in newly liberated, formally colonial spaces.

1385
02:24:30.159 --> 02:24:39.120
<v Speaker 2>But there was also a basic affinity and that's coded

1386
02:24:39.159 --> 02:24:45.799
<v Speaker 2>into national socialism through influences like Schopenhauer and things, and

1387
02:24:45.879 --> 02:24:50.079
<v Speaker 2>the German character generally. Hitler wasn't some orientalists like von Weiers,

1388
02:24:50.159 --> 02:24:53.879
<v Speaker 2>but I think it's clear to all but the most

1389
02:24:54.280 --> 02:25:00.959
<v Speaker 2>literal and binary minds when I'm getting it. And towards

1390
02:25:00.959 --> 02:25:06.399
<v Speaker 2>that I mentioned before about Oprah group and Feler and

1391
02:25:06.559 --> 02:25:11.360
<v Speaker 2>Genaha devafansis got lab Burger, who I think was a

1392
02:25:11.360 --> 02:25:23.319
<v Speaker 2>fascinating individual, and he was a key personage in forcing

1393
02:25:23.360 --> 02:25:31.200
<v Speaker 2>the through policies within the SS relating to the alliance

1394
02:25:31.280 --> 02:25:37.319
<v Speaker 2>with not just the Palestinians and al Hussini, but with

1395
02:25:37.639 --> 02:25:46.000
<v Speaker 2>the Islamic nationalities in the East. He clarified. Berger said,

1396
02:25:46.680 --> 02:25:54.920
<v Speaker 2>and I'm paraphrasing the relationship between Islam and national socialism.

1397
02:25:54.959 --> 02:26:04.639
<v Speaker 2>There's a vocush imperative, but what is not intended is

1398
02:26:04.680 --> 02:26:08.639
<v Speaker 2>a synthesis. He said. Quote it is not intended to

1399
02:26:08.680 --> 02:26:11.479
<v Speaker 2>find a synthesis of Islam and national socialism or to

1400
02:26:11.520 --> 02:26:18.440
<v Speaker 2>impose national socialism in the Maslims. Rather, national socialism is

1401
02:26:18.479 --> 02:26:22.319
<v Speaker 2>to be seen as the genuine, focused German worldview, while

1402
02:26:22.399 --> 02:26:27.040
<v Speaker 2>Islam is to be seen as the genuine, focused Arabic worldview.

1403
02:26:28.440 --> 02:26:32.680
<v Speaker 2>He was using Arabic as a stand in for I mean,

1404
02:26:32.719 --> 02:26:36.000
<v Speaker 2>obviously the land of the prophet and the Arabic language

1405
02:26:37.159 --> 02:26:44.559
<v Speaker 2>and Muhammad himself means that Arab cultural forms have an

1406
02:26:44.559 --> 02:26:51.280
<v Speaker 2>outsized significance in Islam. He was using Arabic in the

1407
02:26:51.360 --> 02:26:56.040
<v Speaker 2>Arabic world view in a Shpangalarrian sense to include, you know,

1408
02:26:56.079 --> 02:27:05.040
<v Speaker 2>in most of the Islamic element under the Reich authority,

1409
02:27:05.120 --> 02:27:09.639
<v Speaker 2>where we're not Arab. And again there was this emphasis

1410
02:27:09.680 --> 02:27:20.440
<v Speaker 2>on Sarajevo in specifically in Bosnia as the as the

1411
02:27:20.520 --> 02:27:27.799
<v Speaker 2>heartland of European Islam, and thus they were to be

1412
02:27:27.799 --> 02:27:32.559
<v Speaker 2>given priority. And Berger emphasized that. And mind you, Berger

1413
02:27:32.719 --> 02:27:38.120
<v Speaker 2>was h he was second only to the Reich's fear

1414
02:27:38.319 --> 02:27:42.200
<v Speaker 2>ss Himmler in his rank. He had a rank equivalent

1415
02:27:42.239 --> 02:27:49.280
<v Speaker 2>to Paul Hauser and scept Dietrich, so he his word

1416
02:27:49.440 --> 02:27:58.319
<v Speaker 2>was a law within the organization. Then he clarified that

1417
02:27:58.360 --> 02:28:04.479
<v Speaker 2>the Moslems, the Balkans were racially part of the Germanic

1418
02:28:04.520 --> 02:28:09.520
<v Speaker 2>world well ideologically and spiritually part of the Arab world.

1419
02:28:10.719 --> 02:28:15.680
<v Speaker 2>So he said, among other things, these Balkan Moslem peoples,

1420
02:28:17.120 --> 02:28:23.280
<v Speaker 2>they represent, you know what the complimentary aspects are of

1421
02:28:23.319 --> 02:28:33.840
<v Speaker 2>this alliance and this unity of veldenstrong against communism and jewelry.

1422
02:28:37.239 --> 02:28:42.319
<v Speaker 2>And he continued by saying, through the deployment of a

1423
02:28:42.360 --> 02:28:46.440
<v Speaker 2>Maslim SS division speaking of the Bosniacs here they're made

1424
02:28:46.479 --> 02:28:49.319
<v Speaker 2>hereby for the first time the established a connection between

1425
02:28:49.399 --> 02:28:53.120
<v Speaker 2>Islam and national socialism, or rather between the Arab and

1426
02:28:53.159 --> 02:28:56.440
<v Speaker 2>the Germanic world, and an open, honest basis as this

1427
02:28:56.520 --> 02:28:59.719
<v Speaker 2>division in terms of blood and race is influenced by

1428
02:28:59.760 --> 02:29:03.079
<v Speaker 2>the North in terms of ideology and contrast by the

1429
02:29:03.120 --> 02:29:10.159
<v Speaker 2>orient I think I got into in the last episode.

1430
02:29:10.319 --> 02:29:15.239
<v Speaker 2>I tried to clarify by reference to my outlines what

1431
02:29:15.360 --> 02:29:19.360
<v Speaker 2>I covered, So stop me if I'm being redundant. But

1432
02:29:21.479 --> 02:29:28.959
<v Speaker 2>in nineteen forty four the SS head office at behest

1433
02:29:29.000 --> 02:29:33.319
<v Speaker 2>the Burger, they established two Islamic centers for religious education.

1434
02:29:33.920 --> 02:29:36.120
<v Speaker 2>The first one, which I think I got into a bit,

1435
02:29:37.200 --> 02:29:41.920
<v Speaker 2>was open in April nineteen forty four. It was in

1436
02:29:41.959 --> 02:29:48.719
<v Speaker 2>a small town called Kuben in Brandenburg. This was this

1437
02:29:48.879 --> 02:29:52.479
<v Speaker 2>was the e Mom Institute, and we talked about emoms

1438
02:29:52.479 --> 02:29:58.719
<v Speaker 2>in NAVAF and SS and the important role they played

1439
02:29:58.719 --> 02:30:01.399
<v Speaker 2>at not just division level of a company and even

1440
02:30:01.399 --> 02:30:11.559
<v Speaker 2>platoon level. And this El Hussini himself attended a ceremony

1441
02:30:12.879 --> 02:30:19.360
<v Speaker 2>with the gott Love Burger and an email nam Hussein Disozo,

1442
02:30:19.959 --> 02:30:29.479
<v Speaker 2>who was a Bosniac. More significant, particularly to the subject

1443
02:30:29.520 --> 02:30:35.079
<v Speaker 2>matter that I started this discussion with with what was

1444
02:30:35.120 --> 02:30:47.600
<v Speaker 2>colloquially called the ss Mullus school. It was, it didn't

1445
02:30:48.959 --> 02:31:00.040
<v Speaker 2>formally it wasn't formally established until November forty four, and

1446
02:31:00.079 --> 02:31:07.319
<v Speaker 2>once again there was an inauguration ceremony tailored to celebrate

1447
02:31:07.440 --> 02:31:14.600
<v Speaker 2>enough to size a Germanic Masliam alliance. The opening speech

1448
02:31:14.799 --> 02:31:20.920
<v Speaker 2>was proffered by Walter Schellenberg, and the end of the

1449
02:31:20.920 --> 02:31:28.159
<v Speaker 2>Soviet was interesting because again it it seemed very much

1450
02:31:28.280 --> 02:31:33.159
<v Speaker 2>codd Swards of post war world and proceeding under hostile

1451
02:31:33.159 --> 02:31:46.600
<v Speaker 2>occupation without without resulting the language that suggested what in

1452
02:31:46.639 --> 02:31:52.239
<v Speaker 2>the national social ideological culture would be looked upon pejoratively

1453
02:31:52.280 --> 02:31:58.719
<v Speaker 2>as defeatism. But the crux of Schellensberg's speech was the

1454
02:31:58.799 --> 02:32:05.200
<v Speaker 2>historical associations, the traditional bonds between the kaiser Reich and

1455
02:32:05.399 --> 02:32:15.879
<v Speaker 2>Daryl Islam, the longstanding support for Moslim peoples who were

1456
02:32:16.399 --> 02:32:37.799
<v Speaker 2>besieged by Jewish tyranny. And it emphasized too that the

1457
02:32:37.879 --> 02:32:42.799
<v Speaker 2>Soviet Union, by its very existence it represented a slow

1458
02:32:44.719 --> 02:32:53.280
<v Speaker 2>not just on focused ways of life, but on all

1459
02:32:53.280 --> 02:33:02.680
<v Speaker 2>confessional practices and cultural spread Usians first among them Islam,

1460
02:33:03.760 --> 02:33:13.399
<v Speaker 2>and Schellenberg specifically said that the focused core of Russia

1461
02:33:14.440 --> 02:33:21.719
<v Speaker 2>had been destroyed for all practical purposes and totally deracinated,

1462
02:33:23.719 --> 02:33:28.120
<v Speaker 2>and that the non Russian people under occupation and on

1463
02:33:28.200 --> 02:33:33.520
<v Speaker 2>the periphery of the Soviet Empire were similarly being targeted

1464
02:33:33.520 --> 02:33:41.079
<v Speaker 2>for destruction and their fate would be the same as

1465
02:33:44.200 --> 02:33:53.840
<v Speaker 2>that of the Russians if an effective resistance wasn't cultivated

1466
02:33:54.280 --> 02:33:59.079
<v Speaker 2>and the only way that that could be realized is

1467
02:33:59.120 --> 02:34:03.440
<v Speaker 2>by the dual commits meant of to racial hygiene and

1468
02:34:04.680 --> 02:34:13.639
<v Speaker 2>confessional piousness. And in this respect, Schellenberg said Islam was

1469
02:34:13.719 --> 02:34:17.520
<v Speaker 2>the quote custodian of the Eastern people and their biological

1470
02:34:17.600 --> 02:34:24.079
<v Speaker 2>substance as well as their confessional heritage in linear terms

1471
02:34:24.120 --> 02:34:31.399
<v Speaker 2>back to the time of the Prophet, and he concluded

1472
02:34:31.479 --> 02:34:36.760
<v Speaker 2>by saying that because the Bolsheviks lack traditions in the past,

1473
02:34:38.360 --> 02:34:41.000
<v Speaker 2>they're not long for this earth, but that Moslims are

1474
02:34:41.040 --> 02:34:44.040
<v Speaker 2>able to cope with the future no matter what hardships emerge,

1475
02:34:45.520 --> 02:34:50.959
<v Speaker 2>because not just to the racial purity of the several

1476
02:34:51.000 --> 02:34:56.559
<v Speaker 2>populations who are very tribally randed who constituted the Eastern Mauslims,

1477
02:34:57.360 --> 02:35:00.680
<v Speaker 2>but that basically their faith would carry them through the

1478
02:35:00.799 --> 02:35:05.319
<v Speaker 2>historical destruction of Bolshevism and the and the racially impure,

1479
02:35:06.000 --> 02:35:13.200
<v Speaker 2>uh interventioned, who are the standard bearers of the Bolshevik ideology,

1480
02:35:13.440 --> 02:35:18.479
<v Speaker 2>who are really just the vestigial remnants of the Russian

1481
02:35:18.920 --> 02:35:24.159
<v Speaker 2>racial corps that died in the Soviet death camps. Very

1482
02:35:24.319 --> 02:35:31.399
<v Speaker 2>very heady stuff, not not not typical, just sort of

1483
02:35:32.079 --> 02:35:40.719
<v Speaker 2>grab bag propaganda, you know, And this is important. And

1484
02:35:40.760 --> 02:35:44.559
<v Speaker 2>the Moullas School it was, it was far larger than

1485
02:35:44.600 --> 02:35:49.399
<v Speaker 2>the Email School. It was based at this villa in UH,

1486
02:35:50.440 --> 02:36:01.879
<v Speaker 2>this affluent neighborhood outside of Dresden. There was this Victor Klemper.

1487
02:36:03.559 --> 02:36:09.440
<v Speaker 2>He was this Jewish writer who curiously, you know, didn't

1488
02:36:09.840 --> 02:36:13.600
<v Speaker 2>get like shot shot into space or something by the

1489
02:36:13.680 --> 02:36:18.920
<v Speaker 2>Nazi Holocaust. But he was a lot of people, I think,

1490
02:36:18.959 --> 02:36:23.719
<v Speaker 2>including Shier, William Shier, who wrote a very silly book

1491
02:36:23.920 --> 02:36:26.799
<v Speaker 2>that a lot of quote historians hold out as some

1492
02:36:26.959 --> 02:36:30.600
<v Speaker 2>great treatment of the Third Reich. Of course Shira pulled it.

1493
02:36:31.079 --> 02:36:32.399
<v Speaker 2>There was a rise and fall of the Third Roag

1494
02:36:32.440 --> 02:36:34.879
<v Speaker 2>and then there was the Nightmare Years. That's a that's

1495
02:36:34.879 --> 02:36:37.399
<v Speaker 2>an objective and not at all a sterical title for

1496
02:36:37.440 --> 02:36:44.680
<v Speaker 2>a history book. But Victor Klemfery he kept diaries and

1497
02:36:44.719 --> 02:36:48.000
<v Speaker 2>he documented his observations on various things.

1498
02:36:49.440 --> 02:36:52.680
<v Speaker 1>They really like to keep diaries, don't they.

1499
02:36:53.000 --> 02:36:54.799
<v Speaker 2>Well, to be fair, that was something people did in

1500
02:36:54.799 --> 02:36:57.520
<v Speaker 2>those days. I mean I'm talking actual people, not fictitious

1501
02:36:57.600 --> 02:37:01.840
<v Speaker 2>diaries of you know, girls who wrote like Judy Bloom

1502
02:37:01.879 --> 02:37:06.840
<v Speaker 2>books that were marketed for like nineteen seventies junior high students.

1503
02:37:07.239 --> 02:37:11.200
<v Speaker 2>You know most I mean, Goebels was especially prolific. But

1504
02:37:13.159 --> 02:37:17.200
<v Speaker 2>Yodel kept a diary. So did Kitle, so did Rosenberg,

1505
02:37:17.360 --> 02:37:23.120
<v Speaker 2>Alfred Rosenberg, so did Erhard Milch. But no, I take

1506
02:37:23.159 --> 02:37:29.799
<v Speaker 2>your point. But Klemper's diary I believe was real. And

1507
02:37:31.280 --> 02:37:38.319
<v Speaker 2>he noted he was observing obviously from without the you know,

1508
02:37:38.360 --> 02:37:43.319
<v Speaker 2>what was going on in this old but rather stately property,

1509
02:37:43.879 --> 02:37:48.680
<v Speaker 2>which I believe is a repurpose to hotel in blasphets

1510
02:37:49.079 --> 02:37:52.760
<v Speaker 2>this this neighborhood of Dresden, and he said there was

1511
02:37:52.799 --> 02:38:00.520
<v Speaker 2>a quote mysterious Moslem study group there this if you

1512
02:38:00.600 --> 02:38:05.440
<v Speaker 2>want to relate. But I uh, when I read that,

1513
02:38:06.000 --> 02:38:09.040
<v Speaker 2>I just I had this funny image of this like

1514
02:38:09.200 --> 02:38:13.120
<v Speaker 2>little neverish dude like kicking out at uh at things

1515
02:38:13.120 --> 02:38:19.360
<v Speaker 2>like ss going out of this coughing building and say,

1516
02:38:20.079 --> 02:38:26.600
<v Speaker 2>what's what does going on? I don't know, Maybe I

1517
02:38:26.959 --> 02:38:30.159
<v Speaker 2>am from the silly, silly kind of ship like that.

1518
02:38:30.399 --> 02:38:42.319
<v Speaker 2>But uh moving on it. Uh, it can't uh something

1519
02:38:42.319 --> 02:38:43.879
<v Speaker 2>that something you can't you can't. You can't chug this

1520
02:38:44.040 --> 02:38:54.680
<v Speaker 2>up to some sort of you know, effort to corral

1521
02:38:56.200 --> 02:39:00.399
<v Speaker 2>halfless pow using the frontline service or something the flesh

1522
02:39:00.440 --> 02:39:09.159
<v Speaker 2>out the ranks of of devastated divisions and battalions. You know.

1523
02:39:09.680 --> 02:39:15.680
<v Speaker 2>The people suggest that sort of thing, don't know the

1524
02:39:17.200 --> 02:39:27.000
<v Speaker 2>the subject matter. And there was a a a guy

1525
02:39:27.079 --> 02:39:33.719
<v Speaker 2>named Rayner Shakcha Olshacha. He was assigned to set things

1526
02:39:33.799 --> 02:39:45.840
<v Speaker 2>up in the Moulla school and uh make it culturally

1527
02:39:45.920 --> 02:39:50.920
<v Speaker 2>compliant with the students who'd be attending it. So old

1528
02:39:50.959 --> 02:39:58.959
<v Speaker 2>Shaka ol Shatcha. He decked out the interior building in

1529
02:39:59.120 --> 02:40:04.280
<v Speaker 2>ways that reflect did Islamic architectural styles. The main entrance

1530
02:40:04.360 --> 02:40:10.719
<v Speaker 2>hall was decorated with a mosaic patterns specifically after mosques

1531
02:40:10.760 --> 02:40:15.719
<v Speaker 2>in Central Asia. There was a lot of you know,

1532
02:40:16.280 --> 02:40:24.799
<v Speaker 2>Islamic artifacts on loan from museums in the Greater German Reich.

1533
02:40:26.760 --> 02:40:31.799
<v Speaker 2>There was Kuranic verses and calligraphy painted into the walls.

1534
02:40:33.559 --> 02:40:39.360
<v Speaker 2>There was a prayer niche in one of the main

1535
02:40:39.719 --> 02:40:47.840
<v Speaker 2>assembly areas. There was an ornate prayer Hall, which was

1536
02:40:48.280 --> 02:40:53.879
<v Speaker 2>sort of the center of activity on the ground floor,

1537
02:40:55.840 --> 02:41:00.719
<v Speaker 2>you know, And so I mean the assessment out of

1538
02:41:00.760 --> 02:41:10.719
<v Speaker 2>their way to create an authentically Islamic environment, and they

1539
02:41:10.799 --> 02:41:21.120
<v Speaker 2>went as far as to hire Kurt Erdman. He was

1540
02:41:21.200 --> 02:41:26.879
<v Speaker 2>the foremost expert on Islamic culture and art history in

1541
02:41:27.120 --> 02:41:33.879
<v Speaker 2>the Oriental department of the Pergamon Museum in Berlin. And

1542
02:41:36.000 --> 02:41:42.680
<v Speaker 2>he consulted with architects from Berlin and Dresden to mock

1543
02:41:42.799 --> 02:41:47.239
<v Speaker 2>this up, and it took half a year. You know.

1544
02:41:47.840 --> 02:41:53.879
<v Speaker 2>There was a great library. It had Islamic, authentic Islamic

1545
02:41:54.000 --> 02:41:59.360
<v Speaker 2>texts from France, from Bosnia, from the Netherlands, including rare,

1546
02:41:59.600 --> 02:42:09.079
<v Speaker 2>ancient and texts that have been purchased. In Sarajevo. Around

1547
02:42:09.120 --> 02:42:14.959
<v Speaker 2>this time, anybody, no matter there, any uh, any folks,

1548
02:42:15.040 --> 02:42:20.680
<v Speaker 2>Deutsche or any any any non Jewish Auslander could obtain

1549
02:42:20.719 --> 02:42:24.120
<v Speaker 2>a free Koran from the Propaganda ministry just by asking

1550
02:42:24.280 --> 02:42:30.639
<v Speaker 2>for one. There weren't a lot of Qurans that have

1551
02:42:30.680 --> 02:42:36.879
<v Speaker 2>been properly translated into German, so an effort was made

1552
02:42:36.959 --> 02:42:46.159
<v Speaker 2>to remedy that by the Propaganda Ministry. And one of

1553
02:42:46.200 --> 02:42:51.959
<v Speaker 2>the reasons for these efforts was the s S wanted

1554
02:42:51.959 --> 02:43:02.440
<v Speaker 2>to attract top religious scholars and imams to teach at

1555
02:43:02.440 --> 02:43:08.879
<v Speaker 2>the school, but also to attend it for political education

1556
02:43:09.920 --> 02:43:19.680
<v Speaker 2>and military education within the SS model. And reading between

1557
02:43:19.719 --> 02:43:23.319
<v Speaker 2>the lines, you know, again this is the last year

1558
02:43:23.360 --> 02:43:27.399
<v Speaker 2>that wore under desperate conditions. They were looking to build cadres.

1559
02:43:28.559 --> 02:43:33.959
<v Speaker 2>They were looking to build dedicated national socialist cadres within

1560
02:43:34.040 --> 02:43:40.440
<v Speaker 2>these populations for a post war world. You know. I

1561
02:43:41.360 --> 02:43:50.000
<v Speaker 2>that should be clear to anybody who understands what they're

1562
02:43:51.079 --> 02:44:03.159
<v Speaker 2>looking at. Metaphorically speaking, I think Alan John Idris or Idris,

1563
02:44:04.600 --> 02:44:13.840
<v Speaker 2>he was coveted as director of the Mullus School, but

1564
02:44:14.120 --> 02:44:17.319
<v Speaker 2>he was still in the service of the Propaganda Ministry

1565
02:44:18.079 --> 02:44:21.399
<v Speaker 2>as well as the Foreign Office, and he was the

1566
02:44:21.479 --> 02:44:24.319
<v Speaker 2>top man in charge of propaganda in the Islamic world,

1567
02:44:25.559 --> 02:44:31.399
<v Speaker 2>and neither the Foreign Office nor the nor Goebels would

1568
02:44:31.520 --> 02:44:36.639
<v Speaker 2>let him go, you know. And again this they were

1569
02:44:36.719 --> 02:44:41.639
<v Speaker 2>emphasizing the propaganda aspect in the theater in Palestine as

1570
02:44:41.680 --> 02:44:46.399
<v Speaker 2>well as in among the nationalities and in the Soviet Union,

1571
02:44:46.959 --> 02:44:52.559
<v Speaker 2>and uh of course in in Bosnia. But the Bosniacs again,

1572
02:44:52.680 --> 02:44:58.680
<v Speaker 2>they they they were they were racial Europeans and most

1573
02:44:58.760 --> 02:45:03.159
<v Speaker 2>of them we're multi lingualed just because O where they lived,

1574
02:45:04.360 --> 02:45:10.680
<v Speaker 2>you know, and they had a privileged position within within

1575
02:45:10.799 --> 02:45:16.840
<v Speaker 2>the the Reich, so it was it would have been

1576
02:45:16.840 --> 02:45:23.959
<v Speaker 2>a redundant to make them the focus group of these efforts,

1577
02:45:24.239 --> 02:45:31.680
<v Speaker 2>if you follow me. But nevertheless, ultimately the propaganda ministry

1578
02:45:31.959 --> 02:45:38.440
<v Speaker 2>they let Idriss preside over the Moullas school three days

1579
02:45:38.479 --> 02:45:51.120
<v Speaker 2>a week. He was young, comparatively charismatic. He was very

1580
02:45:51.239 --> 02:45:57.680
<v Speaker 2>modern and had Western habits. He had a great admiration

1581
02:45:57.799 --> 02:46:00.360
<v Speaker 2>for the European culture, and he assimilated very well into

1582
02:46:00.440 --> 02:46:04.079
<v Speaker 2>Germany culturally. But he was also a very, very UH

1583
02:46:04.520 --> 02:46:08.079
<v Speaker 2>dedicated Moslim. He was kind of viewed as the model

1584
02:46:10.719 --> 02:46:22.360
<v Speaker 2>Maslim national socialist. He had a son who UH worked

1585
02:46:22.360 --> 02:46:26.920
<v Speaker 2>as an interpreter and then ultimately joined UH the Eastern

1586
02:46:27.000 --> 02:46:29.840
<v Speaker 2>Maslim SS Corps in the final year of the war.

1587
02:46:33.319 --> 02:46:39.280
<v Speaker 2>And that obviously was I mean, I anybody who joined

1588
02:46:39.280 --> 02:46:41.200
<v Speaker 2>that late in the game knew there's a good chance

1589
02:46:41.239 --> 02:46:44.799
<v Speaker 2>they weren't coming home. I mean, he was a dedicated

1590
02:46:48.319 --> 02:46:51.120
<v Speaker 2>he was coming to the jihad. But he this also

1591
02:46:51.239 --> 02:46:54.120
<v Speaker 2>was something of a propagandic coup. You know, look, this

1592
02:46:56.719 --> 02:47:01.879
<v Speaker 2>wealthy Malas offering up his son to fight for the Reich.

1593
02:47:02.360 --> 02:47:12.600
<v Speaker 2>It's no small thing. Obviously, you know, and the and

1594
02:47:12.840 --> 02:47:20.639
<v Speaker 2>the SS uh it says that I'm only employing Moslims

1595
02:47:20.680 --> 02:47:29.440
<v Speaker 2>as teachers in the mother school in contrast to the

1596
02:47:29.600 --> 02:47:38.799
<v Speaker 2>Wehrmacht and in contrast to other party institutions that dealt

1597
02:47:38.799 --> 02:47:44.280
<v Speaker 2>with the education and putical indoctrination of Moslim peoples. The

1598
02:47:44.440 --> 02:47:54.520
<v Speaker 2>ss took this very seriously, you know, and that that

1599
02:47:54.719 --> 02:48:04.959
<v Speaker 2>tracks with its overall orientation, you know, the it's a

1600
02:48:05.040 --> 02:48:15.159
<v Speaker 2>fascinating sort of aspect to the Reich's relationship to Romania.

1601
02:48:16.360 --> 02:48:20.440
<v Speaker 2>You know, Hitler uh Antonescu and Hitler we are very close.

1602
02:48:21.319 --> 02:48:26.479
<v Speaker 2>And Antonescua was probably the fears best ally, and I

1603
02:48:26.559 --> 02:48:33.639
<v Speaker 2>mean Romania sacrificed tremendously for the Axis cause and also

1604
02:48:35.559 --> 02:48:39.399
<v Speaker 2>the fact that they when Stalin began World War two

1605
02:48:39.559 --> 02:48:44.040
<v Speaker 2>with his War of Conquest, obviously, Romania was very much

1606
02:48:44.760 --> 02:48:49.760
<v Speaker 2>in the crosshairs of of Moscow. So there was an

1607
02:48:49.760 --> 02:48:57.000
<v Speaker 2>existential imperative as to why they'd welcome the Vermacht deploying

1608
02:48:57.079 --> 02:49:01.360
<v Speaker 2>its scale there. But also obviously Escu not only to

1609
02:49:01.440 --> 02:49:05.399
<v Speaker 2>commit close to a quarter million men the Barbarosa, but

1610
02:49:05.520 --> 02:49:10.760
<v Speaker 2>he availed Romania as a staging ground for a huge

1611
02:49:11.159 --> 02:49:21.680
<v Speaker 2>component of like forces and being in operational terms. But later,

1612
02:49:22.239 --> 02:49:30.200
<v Speaker 2>you know, anton Escu he presided over the brief national

1613
02:49:30.360 --> 02:49:35.879
<v Speaker 2>legionary state and then he banned the Iron Guard owing

1614
02:49:35.920 --> 02:49:41.200
<v Speaker 2>to what he viewed as their revolutionary subversion. This was

1615
02:49:41.239 --> 02:49:48.079
<v Speaker 2>in the aftermath of this is when Sema had succeeded Kodriano,

1616
02:49:48.159 --> 02:49:54.079
<v Speaker 2>who'd been murdered. But the SS famously they backed the

1617
02:49:54.159 --> 02:49:59.120
<v Speaker 2>Iron Guard against Kodrianuh, who the fear of himself, you know,

1618
02:49:59.360 --> 02:50:05.600
<v Speaker 2>unconditionally back Kadriyanu. That there was an SS ideology into

1619
02:50:05.680 --> 02:50:14.639
<v Speaker 2>itself which was very pan European, very revolutionary, very very different,

1620
02:50:15.920 --> 02:50:22.000
<v Speaker 2>not just from the Wehrmachten, traditional German society and even

1621
02:50:22.040 --> 02:50:25.319
<v Speaker 2>traditional German military culture, but distinguishable from the mainstream of

1622
02:50:25.319 --> 02:50:28.120
<v Speaker 2>the NSDAP as well. And I find it fascinating. But

1623
02:50:29.399 --> 02:50:33.319
<v Speaker 2>to bring it back to the subject at hand, one

1624
02:50:33.440 --> 02:50:40.600
<v Speaker 2>thing that the Mulla School emphasized, and this is another

1625
02:50:40.680 --> 02:50:48.879
<v Speaker 2>reason why they insisted on on Moslim teachers exclusively the

1626
02:50:49.000 --> 02:50:56.040
<v Speaker 2>theological program. It was very oriented towards overcoming sectarian hostilities,

1627
02:50:56.959 --> 02:51:02.719
<v Speaker 2>and in the SS tried to prioritize bridging the divide

1628
02:51:02.719 --> 02:51:16.360
<v Speaker 2>between scenes and sites. There's a constant emphasis against religious sectarianism.

1629
02:51:17.200 --> 02:51:28.200
<v Speaker 2>Among Moslems, you know, and traditionally in in Wehrmacht units

1630
02:51:31.280 --> 02:51:41.760
<v Speaker 2>where traditionally she and sounes we were segregated, and the

1631
02:51:41.959 --> 02:51:44.959
<v Speaker 2>ss were not only refused to do that, but they

1632
02:51:45.040 --> 02:51:54.559
<v Speaker 2>pursued an anti sectarian line. And the emphasis again was

1633
02:51:54.719 --> 02:52:03.239
<v Speaker 2>that this schism was contrived by men who coveted worldly

1634
02:52:03.399 --> 02:52:10.680
<v Speaker 2>power after the the center of the prophet of heaven,

1635
02:52:11.959 --> 02:52:22.559
<v Speaker 2>and that the current struggle where the the dual threat

1636
02:52:23.399 --> 02:52:29.799
<v Speaker 2>in existential terms to the Islamic faith and to the

1637
02:52:32.200 --> 02:52:41.440
<v Speaker 2>race of the nationalities and populations that constituted darl Islam.

1638
02:52:43.319 --> 02:52:50.399
<v Speaker 2>That calls for a healing of the schism, even were

1639
02:52:50.440 --> 02:53:03.319
<v Speaker 2>it not a contrivance promised on worldly and thus actually

1640
02:53:03.360 --> 02:53:16.840
<v Speaker 2>vertically corrupt the ambitions, you know. And again the implication,

1641
02:53:17.000 --> 02:53:23.280
<v Speaker 2>in my opinion is obvious. It's, you know, we a

1642
02:53:23.360 --> 02:53:27.600
<v Speaker 2>political soldier looking ahead circa nineteen forty four forty five

1643
02:53:30.319 --> 02:53:39.680
<v Speaker 2>needs to adopted as primary concern the racial survival of

1644
02:53:39.799 --> 02:53:48.920
<v Speaker 2>his people and the continuity of his faith on this planet,

1645
02:53:49.639 --> 02:53:55.040
<v Speaker 2>you know, in the face of the dual assault of

1646
02:53:55.200 --> 02:54:03.280
<v Speaker 2>Zionism and communism, and will will stop. It's there. I

1647
02:54:03.360 --> 02:54:07.000
<v Speaker 2>hope this wasn't. I hope people got something out of this.

1648
02:54:07.559 --> 02:54:09.760
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I I presume they did, because people have

1649
02:54:09.840 --> 02:54:12.399
<v Speaker 2>been very nice in their feedback.

1650
02:54:14.879 --> 02:54:21.000
<v Speaker 1>No, I mean, if anything, I would like to hear

1651
02:54:21.239 --> 02:54:26.079
<v Speaker 1>more people not talk about Islam like they're a boomer

1652
02:54:26.440 --> 02:54:28.120
<v Speaker 1>right after nine to eleven.

1653
02:54:28.879 --> 02:54:31.559
<v Speaker 2>Well, yeah, I mean they're they're they're idiots. That's one

1654
02:54:31.559 --> 02:54:35.360
<v Speaker 2>of the reasons. I mean, they're we we we've got

1655
02:54:35.440 --> 02:54:41.520
<v Speaker 2>Islamic comrades who are great. But beyond that, you know,

1656
02:54:41.600 --> 02:54:43.840
<v Speaker 2>I don't. But the same that people lip off at

1657
02:54:43.879 --> 02:54:46.600
<v Speaker 2>me about World War two or about the law. It's like, oh,

1658
02:54:46.639 --> 02:54:49.040
<v Speaker 2>you're the expert, you know how. I like, you watch

1659
02:54:49.079 --> 02:54:50.959
<v Speaker 2>a lot of you watch a lot of TV, you

1660
02:54:51.000 --> 02:54:53.959
<v Speaker 2>watch a lot of cable legacy media, so you're you're

1661
02:54:54.000 --> 02:55:00.479
<v Speaker 2>an Islam expert. I mean, I that's why. That's the

1662
02:55:00.600 --> 02:55:03.840
<v Speaker 2>reason I emphasize these topics, because even in supposedly dissit

1663
02:55:03.879 --> 02:55:09.319
<v Speaker 2>encoded spaces, these people are conceptual a literates by and large,

1664
02:55:10.360 --> 02:55:15.200
<v Speaker 2>but you can't. The finly reason I'm trying to get

1665
02:55:15.680 --> 02:55:22.639
<v Speaker 2>more more guys who have a theological expertise or their

1666
02:55:22.719 --> 02:55:28.520
<v Speaker 2>background is you know, in in a Bible, Christianity or

1667
02:55:28.799 --> 02:55:33.479
<v Speaker 2>Catholicism or Orthodoxy or Islam. Because that's I mean, at

1668
02:55:33.479 --> 02:55:37.079
<v Speaker 2>the end of the day, I mean, I like what

1669
02:55:37.239 --> 02:55:45.079
<v Speaker 2>we've talked about. It's I'm more a capital T radical

1670
02:55:45.159 --> 02:55:48.200
<v Speaker 2>traditionist than i am anything probably. I mean you're talking

1671
02:55:48.200 --> 02:55:51.120
<v Speaker 2>about like my political philosophy, you know, I mean, I

1672
02:55:51.200 --> 02:55:56.079
<v Speaker 2>identify as a yacky as national socialists. But what the

1673
02:55:56.280 --> 02:56:04.680
<v Speaker 2>uh it's reneeing on. It's Mercia Eliotti, Julius evil. That's

1674
02:56:04.680 --> 02:56:08.879
<v Speaker 2>a substantial part of my canon if you want all

1675
02:56:08.920 --> 02:56:14.760
<v Speaker 2>it like that, okay. And there's this kind of dummy

1676
02:56:15.120 --> 02:56:25.399
<v Speaker 2>anti intellectualism that's just hostile to theology and religion, you know,

1677
02:56:25.799 --> 02:56:32.280
<v Speaker 2>I mean that that's common to any epoch really, you know,

1678
02:56:33.440 --> 02:56:35.440
<v Speaker 2>even people I've verad that point with some of our

1679
02:56:35.559 --> 02:56:38.959
<v Speaker 2>Orthodox friends and some of our Catholic friends who view

1680
02:56:42.360 --> 02:56:44.959
<v Speaker 2>the Medieval era as a period of high culture that's

1681
02:56:45.040 --> 02:56:49.440
<v Speaker 2>unduly maligned, which is absolutely true. Casting the Middle Ages

1682
02:56:49.520 --> 02:56:54.360
<v Speaker 2>is a sort of hellish time of cultural poverty. I mean,

1683
02:56:54.399 --> 02:56:56.959
<v Speaker 2>that's ridiculous. I mean, I don't know how any I

1684
02:56:57.000 --> 02:56:59.079
<v Speaker 2>don't know how any Anglophone person can think that way anyway.

1685
02:56:59.120 --> 02:57:03.079
<v Speaker 2>I mean arthury and lore and the Ulster cycle. If

1686
02:57:03.120 --> 02:57:04.799
<v Speaker 2>you're somebody like me, that's second only to the King

1687
02:57:04.879 --> 02:57:08.760
<v Speaker 2>James Bible, you know, you know, like I and that

1688
02:57:08.879 --> 02:57:11.719
<v Speaker 2>that that comes out of the horrifying medieval era, you know,

1689
02:57:12.760 --> 02:57:17.040
<v Speaker 2>But beyond that, I think some people they kind of

1690
02:57:17.079 --> 02:57:19.479
<v Speaker 2>view with the orals colored glasses, they this idea, Oh well,

1691
02:57:19.559 --> 02:57:25.680
<v Speaker 2>then there's this, there's this integrated concept you know that

1692
02:57:26.319 --> 02:57:28.760
<v Speaker 2>they mean in terms of trifunctional hypothesis, but they mean

1693
02:57:28.879 --> 02:57:36.360
<v Speaker 2>that religious life informed everyday sensibilities. And that's somewhat true.

1694
02:57:36.479 --> 02:57:40.319
<v Speaker 2>But I think it was and I think most people

1695
02:57:40.600 --> 02:57:44.399
<v Speaker 2>and not about class. This this this doesn't know class

1696
02:57:45.479 --> 02:57:49.600
<v Speaker 2>in terms of where these sensibilities are concentrated. But I

1697
02:57:49.680 --> 02:57:52.799
<v Speaker 2>think most people even then it was a very kind

1698
02:57:52.840 --> 02:57:57.319
<v Speaker 2>of superficial thing. You know, people always gonna look at

1699
02:57:57.319 --> 02:58:02.120
<v Speaker 2>scance at you if you take religion seriously and you

1700
02:58:02.239 --> 02:58:08.959
<v Speaker 2>want to emphasize it as the subject matter that it is,

1701
02:58:09.120 --> 02:58:13.559
<v Speaker 2>is your sort of the topical focus.

1702
02:58:14.120 --> 02:58:14.319
<v Speaker 1>You know.

1703
02:58:15.319 --> 02:58:20.959
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, I people like that are I don't know,

1704
02:58:21.040 --> 02:58:26.399
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I I I've had to get eventuated in

1705
02:58:26.440 --> 02:58:30.440
<v Speaker 2>tuning out ignorant people because they're all around me and

1706
02:58:30.479 --> 02:58:36.280
<v Speaker 2>they're all really noisy. They're a I don't know, you know,

1707
02:58:37.239 --> 02:58:39.440
<v Speaker 2>I'm not I'm not here to educate morons and I'm not.

1708
02:58:39.600 --> 02:58:41.799
<v Speaker 2>I'm not here to like listen to assholes lip off

1709
02:58:41.840 --> 02:58:44.879
<v Speaker 2>on things they don't know about. So I just the

1710
02:58:45.000 --> 02:58:47.239
<v Speaker 2>minority of people who want to talk about serious stuff,

1711
02:58:47.239 --> 02:58:50.479
<v Speaker 2>and I think like little fucking kids. I mean, you know,

1712
02:58:50.760 --> 02:58:52.200
<v Speaker 2>of the people I want to interact with.

1713
02:58:53.879 --> 02:58:56.639
<v Speaker 1>All right, everybody, go over it to Thomas A substack

1714
02:58:57.000 --> 02:59:00.280
<v Speaker 1>real Thomas seven seven seven dot substack dot com and

1715
02:59:00.399 --> 02:59:04.000
<v Speaker 1>check out his website Thomas seven seven seven dot com.

1716
02:59:04.680 --> 02:59:07.920
<v Speaker 1>The t is a seven and you can hook up

1717
02:59:07.959 --> 02:59:12.319
<v Speaker 1>with him uh from there. Thank you, Thomas, I appreciate it.

1718
02:59:12.760 --> 02:59:13.239
<v Speaker 2>Thank you man,