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<v Speaker 1>Astonishing Legends Network Disclaimer. This episode includes the usual amount

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<v Speaker 1>of adult language and graphic discussions you've come to expect

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<v Speaker 1>around here, but in the event it becomes an unusual amount,

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<v Speaker 1>expect another call from me.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey, everybody, welcome back to Scaret all the time. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>Chris Klari and I'm ed for Cola, And this week

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<v Speaker 2>we are talking about the monster that lurks at the

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<v Speaker 2>very heart of our society. It's a creature that we

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<v Speaker 2>actually designed to serve us, to ensure a fragile peace

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<v Speaker 2>between neighbors and strangers, friends and enemies, the rich and

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<v Speaker 2>the poor, the weak and the powerful. We carefully crafted

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<v Speaker 2>this creature to punish the guilty. But the truth is

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<v Speaker 2>it is flawed. It's easily manipulated and capable of visiting

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<v Speaker 2>immense violence upon the innocent. This brute is not the

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<v Speaker 2>kind of horror that we usually discuss on this show.

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<v Speaker 3>Is it a RoboCop kind of It is a cop

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<v Speaker 3>in some ways.

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<v Speaker 2>It is not a demon or a ghoul, or a

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<v Speaker 2>zombie or a werewolf, or a drug or an accident

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<v Speaker 2>that can tear you limb from limb. It is something

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<v Speaker 2>that we call the justice system. Oh dread insert law

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<v Speaker 2>and order sound here. No way.

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<v Speaker 3>That's really a lot of money, and it.

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<v Speaker 2>Is capable of thrusting almost anyone into a Kafka esque

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<v Speaker 2>nightmare from which there is no escape, because the justice

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<v Speaker 2>system is not always just. Sometimes you wake up and

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<v Speaker 2>someone you've never met has decided that you are a criminal.

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<v Speaker 2>By lunchtime, there's a detective at your door, By Friday,

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<v Speaker 2>your face is on the news, and by next year

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<v Speaker 2>you are in a cage or an electric chair. And

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<v Speaker 2>that is what we're talking about today, the slow motion

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<v Speaker 2>nightmare of being innocent and being told over and over

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<v Speaker 2>and over and over by the people who hold your

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<v Speaker 2>very life and freedom in their hands that you are guilty.

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<v Speaker 2>What are we screwed? When are we? All? The time? Now?

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<v Speaker 2>Which is time for time? Before we start, I just

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<v Speaker 2>want to take a quick second to say, if you

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<v Speaker 2>like the show, please go to patreon dot com slash

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<v Speaker 2>scare it all the time to check out everything we

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<v Speaker 2>have on offer over there. We've got a monthly live

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<v Speaker 2>stream that we do, we've got Button of the Month club,

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<v Speaker 2>we've got early release, we've got ad free all kinds

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<v Speaker 2>of stuff. If you guys sign up over at the

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<v Speaker 2>Patreon it really helps keep the lights sign at the show.

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<v Speaker 2>And I do not say that lightly. It really genuinely

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<v Speaker 2>helps keep the lights on. So sign up over there

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<v Speaker 2>if you haven't yet, And if you can't do that,

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<v Speaker 2>that's all good. But if you could leave us a

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<v Speaker 2>five star review on Spotify or Apple, head over, check

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<v Speaker 2>us out on YouTube, help us grow our channels. This

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<v Speaker 2>show exists because of you, the listener, and we try

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<v Speaker 2>to involve you as much as we can. So we

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<v Speaker 2>thank you, and with that, it's time to start the show.

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<v Speaker 2>All right. So, as far as fears that we've discussed

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<v Speaker 2>on this show, I would say this one is probably

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<v Speaker 2>the one that I've had the most genuine nightmares about.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm having nightmares about you bank in your hand on

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<v Speaker 3>the table and that being in the recording.

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<v Speaker 2>But will you have a nightmare about.

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<v Speaker 3>Being wrong, like like being wrongfully accused or whatever the

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<v Speaker 3>word we're gonna ultimately decide on.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well that's by the time this comes out, we'll

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<v Speaker 2>have decided if we're calling this episode wrongfully accused, falsely accused,

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<v Speaker 2>false imprisonment. There's a couple. I don't know which one

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<v Speaker 2>is best for the SEO, but yes, I don't know

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<v Speaker 2>if it's my general anxiety surrounding life or what. But

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<v Speaker 2>I cannot tell you how many times I have woken

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<v Speaker 2>up I well, I guess the cliche would be in

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<v Speaker 2>a cold sweat. I don't know that I've ever woken

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<v Speaker 2>up in a cold sweat, actually, but I've woken up

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<v Speaker 2>for sure convinced that I was about to spend the

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<v Speaker 2>rest of my life in prison for something that I

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<v Speaker 2>didn't do.

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<v Speaker 3>It sounds like you might have done something I don't

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<v Speaker 3>that you don't remember.

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe I don't know. I don't have that dream. My

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<v Speaker 2>nightmares never cover the details. But I know in my

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<v Speaker 2>nightmares that I've been booked for murders, hit and runs,

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<v Speaker 2>bank robberies, and a bombing that I didn't commit. Sure,

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<v Speaker 2>I've also had dreams of being hauled in the court

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<v Speaker 2>for stuff that's not an actual crime. Like I have

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<v Speaker 2>a faint, fuzzy memory of a dream that I had

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<v Speaker 2>where I was trying to draw something and I used

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<v Speaker 2>the wrong color, and because I used the wrong color,

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<v Speaker 2>I had to go on the run because I was

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<v Speaker 2>going to get like put in jail. I don't remember

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<v Speaker 2>when I had this dream. I just it's a faint memory.

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<v Speaker 2>And I'm pretty sure this didn't actually happen. I don't

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<v Speaker 2>think I ever had any the state, because I drew

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<v Speaker 2>in red and not green. I guess that's not so

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<v Speaker 2>much a nightmare about a false accusation as it is

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<v Speaker 2>maybe a nightmare about a stupid law.

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<v Speaker 3>But whatever.

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<v Speaker 2>I also think maybe maybe my family I don't know.

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<v Speaker 2>My youngest sister shout out Rachel, no, not a criminal,

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<v Speaker 2>but she shares this fear with me. I don't know

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<v Speaker 2>if maybe one of us had it first and passed

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<v Speaker 2>it to the other, or if we just have the

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<v Speaker 2>same Catholic guilt that follows us around. Like you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I do think in general most days of my life

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<v Speaker 2>I have a voice in the back of my head.

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<v Speaker 2>It's like, well, you, you obviously fucked something up. It's

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<v Speaker 2>not I never had this problem. I mean, I have

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<v Speaker 2>a guilty vulture looming over your shoulder.

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<v Speaker 3>The only dreams I have have discussed this, not on

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<v Speaker 3>the show, but in our lives. The only dreams I

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<v Speaker 3>have in our anxiety dreams. You do have the anxiety,

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<v Speaker 3>and I only dream if I'm dreaming, it's an anxiety dream. Yeap,

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<v Speaker 3>Like that's crazy, but that's the truth. But The anxieties

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<v Speaker 3>in the dream are never that I've been wrong fully.

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<v Speaker 2>Accused of anything, right.

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<v Speaker 3>The anxieties are usually very parallel, even if they're metaphors

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<v Speaker 3>in the dream, they're all very parallel things going on

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<v Speaker 3>in my life at that moment.

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<v Speaker 2>Would you like to tell the listeners about the anxiety

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<v Speaker 2>dream that you had last night? About the sinister test.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't know what that was about, And I don't

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<v Speaker 3>know if it was because I knew we were recording

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<v Speaker 3>and I couldn't fall asleep last night and I kept

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<v Speaker 3>waking up every hour, So I don't know if I

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<v Speaker 3>was worried that I was going to be we're record

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<v Speaker 3>we're drinking coffees in this like we're recording this late

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<v Speaker 3>thirty in the morning.

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<v Speaker 2>But h we were out all night with Sarge from

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<v Speaker 2>Crypto Cocktail. Shout out to Cocktail, David Sarge.

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<v Speaker 3>And the dream I had is it we needed to

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<v Speaker 3>rent a school, a classroom in a school, like a

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<v Speaker 3>dirty old school in Boston, and you in it. They

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<v Speaker 3>were going to charge us ten dollars a day, and

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<v Speaker 3>you were fighting them on that rate. But we needed

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<v Speaker 3>the classroom and presumably some students because Chris wanted to

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<v Speaker 3>conduct a test called the sinister test.

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<v Speaker 2>Which I think you're feeling guilty for things you're doing

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<v Speaker 2>my dream. Maybe I don't know what well, I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know what the sinister test could possibly be.

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<v Speaker 3>I know it was like a multiple choice bubble test

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<v Speaker 3>or like they had. It was like a standardized test,

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<v Speaker 3>and you were explaining it to the woman.

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<v Speaker 2>But the woman and who's the woman? Just some woman

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<v Speaker 2>who's like administrator there. She owns the dirty school.

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<v Speaker 3>She owned the dirty school.

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<v Speaker 2>And she kept being I didn't have a shirt on,

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<v Speaker 2>and I wasn't. I was in better shape in this

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<v Speaker 2>dream than.

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<v Speaker 3>I have now, and but she was like, I'm sorry,

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<v Speaker 3>I can't. Your friend has no shirt on, and I said,

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<v Speaker 3>we were running late.

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<v Speaker 4>She said that to me, Yes, you don't have a

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<v Speaker 4>but I was just there and I had you had

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<v Speaker 4>a shirt on, okay, And then she you kept trying

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<v Speaker 4>to explain the sinister test to her, and then she

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<v Speaker 4>was like, I'm sorry, I'm very distracted.

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<v Speaker 3>And then she's like, you need to have a shirt

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<v Speaker 3>on in the school around children, And then I was

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<v Speaker 3>like I didn't. I said we were running late because

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<v Speaker 3>we started the dream in a hotel. We had well,

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<v Speaker 3>we're not. We're not living in this city at that time.

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<v Speaker 3>We had to come here to conduct this test for

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<v Speaker 3>the pod. Yeah, and she said they had a loss

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<v Speaker 3>and found and she gave me a wife beater and

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<v Speaker 3>I was like, okay, thanks.

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<v Speaker 2>So you're looking sick jacked wife beater. Yeah, and you're

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<v Speaker 2>trying to test children.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and you're like holding a stack of standardized tests

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<v Speaker 3>that say sinister test. And to this to this day,

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<v Speaker 3>it happened hours ago I was sleeping. Yeah, but to

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<v Speaker 3>this day, I don't know what the sinister test.

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<v Speaker 2>Was, but it certainly wasn't anything that we were going

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<v Speaker 2>to go to jail for. Yeah, well, good, well, maybe

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<v Speaker 2>we get to the end of the trip.

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<v Speaker 3>They were open to every request you made, was you

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<v Speaker 3>had a ten dollar fees.

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<v Speaker 2>I think I think we might need to fun We

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<v Speaker 2>might need to actually if we were doing the sinister

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<v Speaker 2>test for the podcast, we might need to actually invent

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<v Speaker 2>the sinister test and do it for the podcast. But

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<v Speaker 2>I also think I partially have to blame I think

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<v Speaker 2>maybe Hitchcock Movies for my fear of being wrongfully accused. Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>he's probably to thing for a lot of people's fears

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<v Speaker 2>about a lot of things, but Hitchcock famously loved the

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<v Speaker 2>wrong Man trope. At least I was trying to think

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<v Speaker 2>when I was getting ready for the show. At least

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<v Speaker 2>three of his movies that I can think of off

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<v Speaker 2>the top of my head, The Thirty nine Steps, about

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<v Speaker 2>a guy accused of being a spy and on the run,

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<v Speaker 2>the wrong man. Henry Fonda, innocent. Henry Fond is one

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<v Speaker 2>of the all time great actors, so good, and I

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<v Speaker 2>forget if it was Rob.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't like his kid, but I think he's great.

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<v Speaker 2>Jane Fonda. I was thinking the Boy One, Oh, who's

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<v Speaker 2>the Wait, who's the boy one? Exactly? Oh? What did

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<v Speaker 2>he do?

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<v Speaker 3>A million things? Easy rider?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh wait? Why is it hard to remember his? Fucking

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<v Speaker 2>one of most famous actors of all time? I'm thinking

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<v Speaker 2>of Dennis Hopper. He was also in that Peter Fund

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<v Speaker 2>Peter Fond, Yeah, out of Peter like early morning, eight

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<v Speaker 2>thirty coffees. I was gonna cut all of us, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>figuring it out. But no, I I love, love, love,

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<v Speaker 2>love Henry Fond. I do not care for Peter Fonda.

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<v Speaker 2>Is just his performances or not. So nothing he actually did,

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<v Speaker 2>couldn't tell you.

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<v Speaker 3>What he did or anything like that. I just think that,

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<v Speaker 3>like I never was really into him, Like I don't

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<v Speaker 3>like easy Writer.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't like it.

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<v Speaker 3>Just he would show up and stuff, and I'm.

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<v Speaker 2>Like, yeah, I don't like easy Ryan. It's fine. It's

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<v Speaker 2>of the time kind of. It's it's the same way

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<v Speaker 2>that like I think kids, you know, forty years from now,

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<v Speaker 2>are gonna be like, the fuck is spring Breakers? I

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<v Speaker 2>hate this man, Like, I feel like there's a similar

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<v Speaker 2>that now counter culture coolness anyway, Third nine Steps wrong

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<v Speaker 2>Man north By Northwest? Sure, and there's one other, is it? Maybe?

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<v Speaker 2>Is it the one that's Man who Knew too Much?

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<v Speaker 2>The Man who Knew too Much? Yeah, has got to be.

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<v Speaker 2>Although I can't remember what that movie's about, but the

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<v Speaker 2>title certainly in it, and Saboteur, I'm pretty sure is

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<v Speaker 2>a guy who a boat gets blown up in a harbor.

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<v Speaker 2>That movie is amazing.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I'm thinking of Lifeboat.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, that's also There's no wrong anyway. He also

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<v Speaker 2>had a whole run of films in the UK before

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<v Speaker 2>he came to America, so it's possible there's even more.

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<v Speaker 2>But I've always found it interesting that he was so

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<v Speaker 2>so Hitchcock passed his fear of false imprisonment onto the

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<v Speaker 2>world because when he was a kid he told the

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<v Speaker 2>story I think too in the interviews with Trifoe, I

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<v Speaker 2>have that book over there. Yeah, didn't read it obviously,

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<v Speaker 2>and who knows if it's true or not, because he

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<v Speaker 2>was he was a storyteller. But he says that when

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<v Speaker 2>he was like around five years old, he did something

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<v Speaker 2>wrong and can't remember what it was, or maybe I

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<v Speaker 2>can't remember what it was, but he did something wrong

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<v Speaker 2>and his dad sent him to the local police station

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<v Speaker 2>with a note pinned to his clothes that said to

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<v Speaker 2>put him in a jail cell and tell him this

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<v Speaker 2>is what we do to naughty boys.

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<v Speaker 3>And oh my god, that that's the sinister test.

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<v Speaker 2>And hitch said that it left him with a lifelong

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<v Speaker 2>fear of police and prisons.

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<v Speaker 3>I stole a piece of beef turkey when I was

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<v Speaker 3>a child at a at a place I won't name

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<v Speaker 3>now in case there's a statute.

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<v Speaker 2>Of limitations on. I think, like I think.

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<v Speaker 3>And my dad when we got in the car, was like,

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<v Speaker 3>we're doing that beef jerkey and I was like, I

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<v Speaker 3>had it, And I obviously didn't have any beef turkey,

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<v Speaker 3>and I remember he said some ship that was like

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<v Speaker 3>He's like, we can go back in there and I

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<v Speaker 3>can do the whole thing where it's like my son

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<v Speaker 3>took this and blah blah blah and embarrass you. He's like,

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<v Speaker 3>or I can just tell you that, like stealing is

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<v Speaker 3>what shitty people do, and we're not shitty people, so

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<v Speaker 3>don't fucking do it again. And and I was real

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<v Speaker 3>young and not saying that I never heard swears before,

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<v Speaker 3>but I never heard swears directed at me that weren't

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<v Speaker 3>in like anger, Like of course, yeah, we're three rambunctious

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<v Speaker 3>asshole kids. We've heard swears, but I'm saying I've never

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<v Speaker 3>heard it like directed at me in such a way.

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<v Speaker 2>This is a real it was a more disappointed yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>So it was a core memory for me. And I

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<v Speaker 2>didn't steal beep jerky ever.

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<v Speaker 3>Again. I was like, real, real little yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean that's actually I mean sort of some people

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<v Speaker 2>have called what Hitch's dad did sort of abusive. I think,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean this would have been what nineteen tens, working

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<v Speaker 2>class London. I feel like, as far as punishments of

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<v Speaker 2>that erago, this was probably on the on the less

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<v Speaker 2>abusive side.

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<v Speaker 3>Of things, and his dad knew how to write, so

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<v Speaker 3>they were okay, step ahead.

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<v Speaker 2>We're going to get back to early nineteen hundreds England

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<v Speaker 2>by the end of this episode. And boy, oh boy,

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<v Speaker 2>what a what a terrible place and time. But when

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<v Speaker 2>most people our age, this is where I want to start.

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<v Speaker 2>When most people our Age hear the phrase falsely accused,

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<v Speaker 2>wrongly accused, their brain probably goes to the most high

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<v Speaker 2>profile wrong man or in this case, woman case in

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<v Speaker 2>recent history, which is the story of Amanda Knox. We are.

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<v Speaker 2>That's not where my brain went. But when you said

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<v Speaker 2>the name, you thought Jeffrey Epstein, no more innocent man.

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<v Speaker 3>No, when you said man in Knox, now it came

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<v Speaker 3>rushing back. But that was not top of mind at all.

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<v Speaker 2>What was top of mind for you? I guess I

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<v Speaker 2>should have.

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<v Speaker 3>Felt like I was gonna be put in a fucking

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<v Speaker 3>Lizzie Bordon situation. I thought you were going to ask me,

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<v Speaker 3>what do you think? And I was racking my brain,

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<v Speaker 3>like wrongfully accused?

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<v Speaker 2>Was that the.

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<v Speaker 3>Leslie Nielsen fucking parody movie of the Fugitive? Like I

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<v Speaker 3>was trying to think of what people our age would

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<v Speaker 3>think of for wrongfully accused. But I guess the Central

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<v Speaker 3>Park five, you know, popped in my head.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, first I had them on the list that that

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<v Speaker 2>case was awful and fraught with much tension. Yeah, we

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<v Speaker 2>didn't want to get into that. I felt like a

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<v Speaker 2>man in Knox is a good place to start. It's

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<v Speaker 2>a good anchor point for a lot in Italy, lady

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<v Speaker 2>who was in Italy. Yeah, and we're not going to

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<v Speaker 2>take an exhaustive look at this case because a million

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<v Speaker 2>people already have. But I think we would be committing

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<v Speaker 2>a crime of podcasting to it, not at least to

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<v Speaker 2>at least we have to touch on it to start

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<v Speaker 2>this episode. So for anyone who wasn't paying attention, or

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<v Speaker 2>possibly me like ed or this was long enough ago

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<v Speaker 2>at this point that maybe some of our listeners were

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<v Speaker 2>maybe not even born when this happened. On November one,

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<v Speaker 2>two thousand and seven, in Perugia, Perugia, Italy, a twenty

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<v Speaker 2>one year old British exchange student named Meredith Kercher was

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<v Speaker 2>found murdered in the apartment that she shared with three

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<v Speaker 2>other young women. Her throat was slashed and she'd been

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<v Speaker 2>sexually assaulted, and all of Italy was scandalized. Within days,

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<v Speaker 2>two things happened in parallel. First, the actual forensic evidence,

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00:14:56.720 --> 00:15:01.080
<v Speaker 2>which included bloody handprints, DNA and footprints, all pointed to

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<v Speaker 2>a guy named Rudy Guede who had been arrested recently

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<v Speaker 2>for burglaries in the town of Perusia. I would even

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<v Speaker 2>say that the evidence pointing to him is a bit

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<v Speaker 2>of an understatement. His ship was all over the place

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<v Speaker 2>in this house. It was the Rudy gued show. On

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<v Speaker 2>the walls, on the floor, he wrote, Rudy wrote here.

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<v Speaker 2>But as the cops started investigating and crawling the crime scene,

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<v Speaker 2>Kircher's American roommate, who at the time was a twenty

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<v Speaker 2>year old Amanda Knox, was outside the house and she

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<v Speaker 2>started acting strangely. She was spotted kissing her boyfriend, doing cartwheels,

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<v Speaker 2>and practicing yoga outside while she waited for the cops

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<v Speaker 2>to follow This act of crime. Sin yeah, and not

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<v Speaker 2>things you do when your roommate's been murdered. Yeh, brtally

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<v Speaker 2>murdered and you're just hanging out outside.

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<v Speaker 3>This isn't fucking banaru no.

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<v Speaker 2>You know of the one of the things that I'm

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<v Speaker 2>sure other people have looked into that I didn't feel

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<v Speaker 2>was super pertinent. Here is what her explanation was for

335
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<v Speaker 2>doing all of these things. Drugs probably drug probably being young, nervous,

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00:16:08.559 --> 00:16:12.720
<v Speaker 2>scared whatever. People. As we'll see throughout this episode, sometimes

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<v Speaker 2>people act in ways that you don't expect them to

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<v Speaker 2>act in bad situations. So her position as an American

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<v Speaker 2>outsider acting weird is enough for Italian police to pull

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00:16:25.440 --> 00:16:29.799
<v Speaker 2>her in for an interrogation. Although much like points to interrogation,

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00:16:29.960 --> 00:16:34.440
<v Speaker 2>here is an understatement. This was morkin to torture. It

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<v Speaker 2>was fifty hours across five days. They interrogated her in Italian,

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<v Speaker 2>which she didn't speak, or she barely spoke. She had

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<v Speaker 2>no lawyer, and the cops repeatedly slapped her and told

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<v Speaker 2>her that after every answer that she was lying. They

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00:16:49.840 --> 00:16:53.600
<v Speaker 2>slapped her physically physically slapped her. Dude. Years later, the

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00:16:53.679 --> 00:16:56.600
<v Speaker 2>European Court of Human Rights ruled why they lost the war.

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<v Speaker 2>They ruled that their behavior was so abusive that the

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<v Speaker 2>country of Italy had to pay Amanda damages. I would

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<v Speaker 2>I would demand it, especially since America. Baby, what do

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<v Speaker 2>you mean?

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<v Speaker 3>I'm just feels like shit gets resolved or shit gets

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<v Speaker 3>escalated when there's an American involved in an international crime

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<v Speaker 3>or thing, either we get the hostages back or we

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<v Speaker 3>come for something after.

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<v Speaker 2>Usually tends to be.

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<v Speaker 3>It's like when you have a dual citizenship, seems to

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<v Speaker 3>be from multiple people I've spoken to outside of our country,

359
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<v Speaker 3>you're gonna want that American embassy when shit goes down.

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<v Speaker 3>What I'm saying is slapping around the American is probably

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<v Speaker 3>not a good look for the country.

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<v Speaker 2>And I don't know, you know, it doesn't seem like

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<v Speaker 2>America swooped in at any point to be like we

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<v Speaker 2>you know, like they were playing by Italy's rules this

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<v Speaker 2>whole time.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, Nor is this a hostage situation or something with

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<v Speaker 3>a steep department and get involved. It's a local fucking crime. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>I'm just saying that, when this becomes news, you've slapped

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<v Speaker 3>the wrong unfortunately nationality, because we have a very large

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<v Speaker 3>global media circus that we bring.

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<v Speaker 2>Everywhere we go.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, and that is part of what and then a

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<v Speaker 3>bunch of dick swinging as just being America tends to be.

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<v Speaker 2>Although in this case, the American media circus I think

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<v Speaker 2>did not help. No, I'm not saying it helped.

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<v Speaker 3>Media circus has rarely helped all right, God blast Princess Diana.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm just saying that, like America is just such a

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<v Speaker 3>fucking elbows out bully, that it's like pick and shoes

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<v Speaker 3>and you're gonna beat up for fifty hours, right.

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<v Speaker 2>I think I should also maybe pause here while we're

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<v Speaker 2>off on a bit of a tangent to say that

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<v Speaker 2>forced confessions might be their own fear, because how many

383
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<v Speaker 2>Netflix stocko maatches are gonna watch where that happens. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>and again I would I think under duress. I know

385
00:18:42.400 --> 00:18:44.400
<v Speaker 2>this is hard for people to wrap their head around.

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<v Speaker 2>And maybe this is my Catholic guilt speaking again, but

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<v Speaker 2>I think if I were in a situation because again

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<v Speaker 2>this is an anxiety I've had being falsely accused, and

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<v Speaker 2>I've imagined this like I think, if you if the

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<v Speaker 2>state were high and scary and weird enough, and you

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<v Speaker 2>brought me into a room and told me for hours

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<v Speaker 2>and hours and hours, if not days, that I was

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<v Speaker 2>definitely guilty of something. I don't know that I would

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<v Speaker 2>like be brainwashed and convinced that I was, but I

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00:19:17.240 --> 00:19:19.599
<v Speaker 2>do feel like I would start to feel like, well,

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<v Speaker 2>I must have done something.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, that's why I black out, did I torture

398
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<v Speaker 3>could fetch off somewhat because if I feel like if.

399
00:19:26.039 --> 00:19:26.920
<v Speaker 2>Well, not even torture.

400
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<v Speaker 3>I'm just saying that there's a reason you can't, right,

401
00:19:30.039 --> 00:19:31.799
<v Speaker 3>because you'll be like, oh, you're gonna stop slapping me

402
00:19:31.839 --> 00:19:33.240
<v Speaker 3>if I say I did it, fine, I did.

403
00:19:33.079 --> 00:19:36.160
<v Speaker 2>It right, right, and not even physically torture, but just

404
00:19:36.240 --> 00:19:39.799
<v Speaker 2>like you know, if they berate you enough and and

405
00:19:40.960 --> 00:19:43.400
<v Speaker 2>you know, tear into you enough, like I don't know,

406
00:19:43.400 --> 00:19:45.400
<v Speaker 2>maybe it means I'm weak willed or I don't know,

407
00:19:45.480 --> 00:19:48.799
<v Speaker 2>but I could see myself after a long enough brutal

408
00:19:48.880 --> 00:19:52.359
<v Speaker 2>enough interrogation being like, yeah, I guess, I guess I

409
00:19:52.440 --> 00:19:54.960
<v Speaker 2>did do it. But anyway, that is why one of

410
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<v Speaker 2>our scared all the time rules is always ask for

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<v Speaker 2>a lawyer. You've got to ask for that lawyer, got

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00:19:59.680 --> 00:20:01.880
<v Speaker 2>to get that as a lawyer. We'll get to that

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<v Speaker 2>in a second. All right, guys, Well, you know how

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<v Speaker 2>it is over here. It's scared all the time. We

415
00:20:09.319 --> 00:20:12.880
<v Speaker 2>are always talking about getting square, and yet we always

416
00:20:12.880 --> 00:20:15.680
<v Speaker 2>seem to be a little bit further away from actually

417
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<v Speaker 2>being square than we ever want to be. So it's

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<v Speaker 2>nice that we're finally getting some sponsors that can maybe

419
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<v Speaker 2>help us on our journey to squareness, and this week's

420
00:20:24.839 --> 00:20:29.279
<v Speaker 2>sponsor is Lean. Everybody is talking about weight loss injections

421
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<v Speaker 2>because the results are so dramatic. They work by lowering

422
00:20:32.559 --> 00:20:35.519
<v Speaker 2>blood sugar and reducing appetite. So what if you're lucky

423
00:20:35.559 --> 00:20:39.319
<v Speaker 2>to lose weight but not interested in painful weekly injections,

424
00:20:39.559 --> 00:20:42.920
<v Speaker 2>especially when you hear about some of those intense side effects. Well,

425
00:20:43.079 --> 00:20:45.920
<v Speaker 2>that's why doctors created a weight loss supplement called Lean,

426
00:20:46.200 --> 00:20:49.920
<v Speaker 2>and the results are remarkable. The studied ingredients and Lean

427
00:20:49.960 --> 00:20:52.160
<v Speaker 2>have been shown to lower your blood sugar, burn fat

428
00:20:52.200 --> 00:20:54.720
<v Speaker 2>by converting it into energy, and curb your appetite and

429
00:20:54.720 --> 00:20:57.440
<v Speaker 2>cravings so you're not as hungry. But listen, Lean is

430
00:20:57.480 --> 00:20:59.200
<v Speaker 2>not for the casual diet or with only a few

431
00:20:59.240 --> 00:21:02.279
<v Speaker 2>pounds to lose. The doctors at Brickhouse Nutrition created Lean

432
00:21:02.400 --> 00:21:05.240
<v Speaker 2>for frustrated dieters with ten or more pounds to lose.

433
00:21:05.319 --> 00:21:07.160
<v Speaker 3>So let's get started. With twenty percent off and free

434
00:21:07.200 --> 00:21:09.599
<v Speaker 3>rush shippings. You can add Lean to your healthy diet

435
00:21:09.599 --> 00:21:12.920
<v Speaker 3>and exercise plan. Visit takelean dot com and answer scared

436
00:21:13.039 --> 00:21:15.799
<v Speaker 3>for your discount. That's promo code Scared s c A

437
00:21:16.039 --> 00:21:18.599
<v Speaker 3>R E D at take lean dot com.

438
00:21:18.640 --> 00:21:22.079
<v Speaker 2>That's promo code Scared s c A. R. E. D

439
00:21:22.559 --> 00:21:29.599
<v Speaker 2>at takelean dot com. So I'm I'm not a legal

440
00:21:29.680 --> 00:21:32.400
<v Speaker 2>expert here, a legal eagle, but I'm pretty sure any

441
00:21:32.400 --> 00:21:36.079
<v Speaker 2>country with a common law Western style justice system has

442
00:21:36.200 --> 00:21:38.519
<v Speaker 2>to allow you to have a lawyer before you answer

443
00:21:38.559 --> 00:21:42.200
<v Speaker 2>any question. So if you're ever traveling, go into the

444
00:21:42.200 --> 00:21:44.480
<v Speaker 2>country as an American citizen. As Ed said, I would

445
00:21:44.519 --> 00:21:47.079
<v Speaker 2>also say, learn the word for bathroom and learn the

446
00:21:47.079 --> 00:21:50.559
<v Speaker 2>word for defense attorney, because if you need one, you

447
00:21:50.720 --> 00:21:53.640
<v Speaker 2>need to be able to ask for one. Just because

448
00:21:53.680 --> 00:21:56.519
<v Speaker 2>you ask for a answered interpreter, well that too, But

449
00:21:56.599 --> 00:21:58.839
<v Speaker 2>just because you ask for one also doesn't mean the cops.

450
00:21:58.880 --> 00:22:00.799
<v Speaker 2>I mean they don't always let you get one easily

451
00:22:00.839 --> 00:22:03.359
<v Speaker 2>in the States, yeah, and doesn't mean they'll let you

452
00:22:03.400 --> 00:22:06.480
<v Speaker 2>get one easily overseas. In Amanda's case, part of the

453
00:22:06.519 --> 00:22:10.160
<v Speaker 2>issue here was that she was never even informed that

454
00:22:10.240 --> 00:22:13.160
<v Speaker 2>she was a suspect. She was just told we want

455
00:22:13.160 --> 00:22:14.880
<v Speaker 2>to talk. And I'm sure at some point in the

456
00:22:14.920 --> 00:22:17.599
<v Speaker 2>fifty hours and five days of me Terrys feel like

457
00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:20.839
<v Speaker 2>she probably figured like, ooh, I but the police, because

458
00:22:20.839 --> 00:22:24.200
<v Speaker 2>the police never just want to talk, and that's when

459
00:22:24.240 --> 00:22:25.119
<v Speaker 2>when she picked up.

460
00:22:25.279 --> 00:22:29.119
<v Speaker 3>Was it like the night of No, that's a good question,

461
00:22:29.160 --> 00:22:31.920
<v Speaker 3>because it's not there's sexual assault stuff.

462
00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:32.640
<v Speaker 2>There's a bunch of shit.

463
00:22:32.680 --> 00:22:34.559
<v Speaker 3>It feels like you're not gonna maybe get from just

464
00:22:34.599 --> 00:22:36.759
<v Speaker 3>looking in the room at that moment.

465
00:22:37.000 --> 00:22:40.880
<v Speaker 2>I mean it was soon. It was soon after they investigated,

466
00:22:41.000 --> 00:22:44.920
<v Speaker 2>after they like did the after they investigated the crime scene,

467
00:22:45.039 --> 00:22:47.640
<v Speaker 2>they talked, They brought her in to talk to her. Well,

468
00:22:47.640 --> 00:22:49.720
<v Speaker 2>the police never just want to talk. And that's and

469
00:22:49.759 --> 00:22:52.119
<v Speaker 2>that's one of the reasons. And I'm genuinely not being

470
00:22:52.119 --> 00:22:57.160
<v Speaker 2>political here, but I would implore anybody, uh with children,

471
00:22:57.400 --> 00:23:00.400
<v Speaker 2>don't teach your kids to blindly trust cops. It's not

472
00:23:00.480 --> 00:23:02.359
<v Speaker 2>that they're all out to get you, but to assume,

473
00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:04.920
<v Speaker 2>I think we've all seen enough Netflix documentaries that to

474
00:23:05.039 --> 00:23:09.160
<v Speaker 2>assume that you're safe because you're innocent is a bad idea. Well,

475
00:23:09.160 --> 00:23:10.200
<v Speaker 2>I always ask.

476
00:23:10.079 --> 00:23:13.519
<v Speaker 3>For a lawyer, Okay, you mean blindly trust cops when

477
00:23:13.519 --> 00:23:15.119
<v Speaker 3>they've brought you in.

478
00:23:15.400 --> 00:23:18.759
<v Speaker 2>Well or even if even if I think there's even

479
00:23:18.799 --> 00:23:21.200
<v Speaker 2>before they bring you in, even when they come knock

480
00:23:21.279 --> 00:23:23.880
<v Speaker 2>on the door, if like if if a cop came

481
00:23:23.920 --> 00:23:24.799
<v Speaker 2>and knocked on my door.

482
00:23:24.839 --> 00:23:27.599
<v Speaker 3>Okay, in this situation, this is a cop is talking

483
00:23:27.640 --> 00:23:31.039
<v Speaker 3>to you. Yeah, Okay, I mean, they're I don't necessarily

484
00:23:31.119 --> 00:23:37.119
<v Speaker 3>agree with the don't blindly trust cops blanket statement West

485
00:23:37.319 --> 00:23:40.240
<v Speaker 3>cops to have my best interest necessarily in mind if

486
00:23:40.279 --> 00:23:43.119
<v Speaker 3>I've been accused or thought to have been accused of something.

487
00:23:43.160 --> 00:23:45.000
<v Speaker 2>But what I'm saying is, you don't even need but

488
00:23:45.039 --> 00:23:45.839
<v Speaker 2>I am.

489
00:23:45.720 --> 00:23:48.119
<v Speaker 3>Gonna I have a healthy respect for cops in the

490
00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:49.519
<v Speaker 3>sense that I don't want any trouble.

491
00:23:49.720 --> 00:23:51.960
<v Speaker 2>Well, respect in not wanting trouble is one thing, But

492
00:23:52.000 --> 00:23:53.640
<v Speaker 2>I'm saying, like the way that I think a lot

493
00:23:53.680 --> 00:23:55.599
<v Speaker 2>of people get in trouble is a cop comes to

494
00:23:55.640 --> 00:23:57.440
<v Speaker 2>your door, a crime has been committed. You may not

495
00:23:57.559 --> 00:23:59.799
<v Speaker 2>even know a crime's been committed, and they say, hey,

496
00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:03.440
<v Speaker 2>can we ask you a couple questions about something? Immediately

497
00:24:03.519 --> 00:24:04.640
<v Speaker 2>right there? And this is why it.

498
00:24:05.119 --> 00:24:07.640
<v Speaker 3>Just happened here I have video footage of it. Somebody

499
00:24:07.640 --> 00:24:10.519
<v Speaker 3>broke into the house behind my house. The guy jumped

500
00:24:10.559 --> 00:24:14.400
<v Speaker 3>over and ran through our thing, and the cops came

501
00:24:14.440 --> 00:24:16.680
<v Speaker 3>to my door and they were like, you have a

502
00:24:16.759 --> 00:24:17.319
<v Speaker 3>ring camera?

503
00:24:17.400 --> 00:24:18.359
<v Speaker 2>Is it cool if we look through you?

504
00:24:18.440 --> 00:24:20.279
<v Speaker 3>Like? Can I see it? What if anyone ran by?

505
00:24:20.440 --> 00:24:23.039
<v Speaker 2>Sure? And I wasn't like, let me call my lawyer

506
00:24:23.240 --> 00:24:25.359
<v Speaker 2>or prove to me. Someone ran by He no, no, no,

507
00:24:25.400 --> 00:24:28.160
<v Speaker 2>I know, I know, and that's and I think that's why.

508
00:24:28.200 --> 00:24:30.480
<v Speaker 2>Like in that case, that was totally fine. But I

509
00:24:30.519 --> 00:24:34.400
<v Speaker 2>think there are situations sometimes where this there is more

510
00:24:34.440 --> 00:24:37.079
<v Speaker 2>going on than you know, and you just say the

511
00:24:37.119 --> 00:24:39.000
<v Speaker 2>wrong thing and all of a sudden, you know, you

512
00:24:39.039 --> 00:24:42.759
<v Speaker 2>find yourself in a situation where somebody has decided that

513
00:24:42.799 --> 00:24:44.960
<v Speaker 2>you look like a pretty good suspect for something in

514
00:24:44.960 --> 00:24:45.400
<v Speaker 2>this case.

515
00:24:45.440 --> 00:24:48.160
<v Speaker 3>Now, in that case, I would say instead of don't

516
00:24:48.200 --> 00:24:52.359
<v Speaker 3>trust the cops, I would just maybe say a scared

517
00:24:52.400 --> 00:24:55.480
<v Speaker 3>all time rule is check yourself before you wreck yourself.

518
00:24:55.880 --> 00:24:59.000
<v Speaker 2>Like like just be smart about like.

519
00:24:59.039 --> 00:25:01.759
<v Speaker 3>Just think two steps head if you can just think

520
00:25:01.839 --> 00:25:04.400
<v Speaker 3>about you know, am I gonna get myself in hot

521
00:25:04.400 --> 00:25:05.279
<v Speaker 3>water accidentally?

522
00:25:05.720 --> 00:25:07.440
<v Speaker 2>It's best it is. Let the lawyers do the talk

523
00:25:07.519 --> 00:25:10.160
<v Speaker 2>before me. Yeah, I would, I guess I would say sure.

524
00:25:10.160 --> 00:25:11.799
<v Speaker 2>If they come and knock on your door and say, hey,

525
00:25:11.799 --> 00:25:14.039
<v Speaker 2>can we check your ring camera, you're probably fine. If

526
00:25:14.079 --> 00:25:15.839
<v Speaker 2>a cop ever asked you to come in they want

527
00:25:15.839 --> 00:25:18.279
<v Speaker 2>to talk to you, that's where I would start thinking

528
00:25:18.319 --> 00:25:21.119
<v Speaker 2>that maybe it's it's time to get a lawyer. Yes,

529
00:25:21.279 --> 00:25:23.880
<v Speaker 2>they're asking you to come to a police station. Well, right,

530
00:25:23.920 --> 00:25:25.960
<v Speaker 2>but they don't always say like they didn't come to

531
00:25:26.000 --> 00:25:27.880
<v Speaker 2>you and say, hey, you're a suspect and a murder

532
00:25:27.920 --> 00:25:29.359
<v Speaker 2>you want to come down? You know, they're like, you know,

533
00:25:29.440 --> 00:25:31.319
<v Speaker 2>come on down. We just we gotta we gotta clear,

534
00:25:31.400 --> 00:25:33.359
<v Speaker 2>we gotta make sure a couple things or whatever, like

535
00:25:33.799 --> 00:25:34.559
<v Speaker 2>the minute down.

536
00:25:34.759 --> 00:25:37.640
<v Speaker 3>Into a second location. I don't Yeah, I don't think I'm.

537
00:25:38.160 --> 00:25:39.480
<v Speaker 2>Never go to a second location.

538
00:25:39.599 --> 00:25:42.319
<v Speaker 3>If you can carry it, fary it. But yeah.

539
00:25:42.400 --> 00:25:45.359
<v Speaker 2>Anyway, my fear that my own brain would turn on

540
00:25:45.480 --> 00:25:51.200
<v Speaker 2>me in a intense interrogation situation is exactly what happened

541
00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:54.359
<v Speaker 2>to Amanda. According to an article I found on investigativetv

542
00:25:54.519 --> 00:25:59.359
<v Speaker 2>dot com you know It's good TV. The cops started

543
00:25:59.440 --> 00:26:03.319
<v Speaker 2>lying to her. They claimed, quote, we know you are

544
00:26:03.359 --> 00:26:06.960
<v Speaker 2>at your house. We have irrefutable proof. Knox was put

545
00:26:07.000 --> 00:26:08.799
<v Speaker 2>in a position of trying to make sense of that.

546
00:26:09.400 --> 00:26:11.240
<v Speaker 2>She said, that doesn't make any sense to me. I

547
00:26:11.279 --> 00:26:14.079
<v Speaker 2>have no memory of being at my house. Knox said.

548
00:26:14.200 --> 00:26:16.640
<v Speaker 2>She then started doubting her own memories, and her self

549
00:26:16.680 --> 00:26:19.519
<v Speaker 2>doubt became so strong that when the cops typed up

550
00:26:19.559 --> 00:26:22.640
<v Speaker 2>a confession, she signed it. She said, I just did

551
00:26:22.680 --> 00:26:25.039
<v Speaker 2>exactly what the police told me to do. I was exhausted.

552
00:26:25.079 --> 00:26:27.640
<v Speaker 2>I was confused. I didn't know even really what I

553
00:26:27.680 --> 00:26:33.279
<v Speaker 2>was signing. Her confession named her boss, a Congolese bar

554
00:26:33.400 --> 00:26:38.240
<v Speaker 2>owner named Patrick Lamumba, as the killer Congolese bar owner

555
00:26:38.240 --> 00:26:40.519
<v Speaker 2>in Italy, not in the Congo. He's from the Congo.

556
00:26:40.839 --> 00:26:41.319
<v Speaker 3>Understood.

557
00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:45.279
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that gets her in even more trouble because Lamumba

558
00:26:45.359 --> 00:26:47.000
<v Speaker 2>had an airtight alibi.

559
00:26:47.119 --> 00:26:49.359
<v Speaker 3>In her thing she signed. She has said my boss

560
00:26:49.440 --> 00:26:52.759
<v Speaker 3>killed my roommate. Yes, she said that her boss did it.

561
00:26:53.119 --> 00:26:54.480
<v Speaker 3>Part of the theory that.

562
00:26:54.440 --> 00:26:56.480
<v Speaker 2>The cops were building here that will get to know as.

563
00:26:56.359 --> 00:26:58.880
<v Speaker 3>She came to that conclusion on her own, unless my

564
00:26:58.960 --> 00:27:01.119
<v Speaker 3>boss was always being creepy around my roommate.

565
00:27:01.240 --> 00:27:03.000
<v Speaker 2>Part of what the cops were building to here that

566
00:27:03.039 --> 00:27:04.640
<v Speaker 2>we'll get into a little bit more in a minute,

567
00:27:04.839 --> 00:27:08.119
<v Speaker 2>is that what happened to Meredith was some sort of

568
00:27:08.160 --> 00:27:11.480
<v Speaker 2>like sex game gone wrong, because there had part of

569
00:27:11.519 --> 00:27:14.759
<v Speaker 2>what part of the that she had dated the bartender. No,

570
00:27:14.960 --> 00:27:18.960
<v Speaker 2>just part of part of the weird mythos that started

571
00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:23.200
<v Speaker 2>to grow around Amanda Knox was that, you know, her

572
00:27:23.240 --> 00:27:26.920
<v Speaker 2>and these three female roommates and her boyfriend, that there

573
00:27:27.039 --> 00:27:30.240
<v Speaker 2>was a bunch of partner swapping and sex stuff going

574
00:27:30.279 --> 00:27:34.920
<v Speaker 2>on and in a very kind of virgin horror society,

575
00:27:35.079 --> 00:27:38.480
<v Speaker 2>like in Italy. That was a very scandalous thing. And

576
00:27:38.519 --> 00:27:40.160
<v Speaker 2>so part of the case they were building was like

577
00:27:40.359 --> 00:27:42.720
<v Speaker 2>what men were you bringing around, who were you having

578
00:27:42.759 --> 00:27:45.559
<v Speaker 2>sex with? Who was Meredith jealous of, and like all

579
00:27:45.599 --> 00:27:48.160
<v Speaker 2>that kind of stuff. So I don't know exactly. Again,

580
00:27:48.240 --> 00:27:49.880
<v Speaker 2>we're not doing the full deep dive. I don't know

581
00:27:49.920 --> 00:27:53.240
<v Speaker 2>exactly why they thought that her boss was involved, but

582
00:27:53.319 --> 00:27:56.279
<v Speaker 2>that was ra sysm. This is a country that gladly

583
00:27:56.759 --> 00:28:00.319
<v Speaker 2>jumped on board with fascism. I would not be not

584
00:28:00.359 --> 00:28:01.880
<v Speaker 2>be surprised if that had something to do with it.

585
00:28:01.960 --> 00:28:06.240
<v Speaker 2>But anyway, Amanda naming her boss in her confession actually

586
00:28:06.240 --> 00:28:09.039
<v Speaker 2>got her in even more trouble because, no kidding, La

587
00:28:09.079 --> 00:28:11.759
<v Speaker 2>Mumba had an airtight alibi, so they went to the

588
00:28:11.799 --> 00:28:14.279
<v Speaker 2>bar even if he didn't. Don't be putting other people's

589
00:28:14.359 --> 00:28:17.279
<v Speaker 2>names in your signed confession. Well, and I'm also curious again,

590
00:28:17.400 --> 00:28:19.960
<v Speaker 2>I'm not sure, like you just straight up like, I

591
00:28:19.960 --> 00:28:22.920
<v Speaker 2>don't like what you just said. I don't know if

592
00:28:22.960 --> 00:28:25.200
<v Speaker 2>she just signed with the cops, wrote I don't know

593
00:28:25.240 --> 00:28:27.440
<v Speaker 2>if the cops put his name in there, and she

594
00:28:27.599 --> 00:28:29.880
<v Speaker 2>ended up taking the fall for that. Well, yeah, I mean,

595
00:28:29.880 --> 00:28:30.400
<v Speaker 2>who knows.

596
00:28:30.400 --> 00:28:32.880
<v Speaker 3>But that's why you know, to quote an old Jerry

597
00:28:32.920 --> 00:28:35.279
<v Speaker 3>Seinfeldt bit from a stand up becaf, kids are too

598
00:28:35.279 --> 00:28:36.279
<v Speaker 3>young to remember at bandak not.

599
00:28:36.440 --> 00:28:37.119
<v Speaker 2>They don't know who.

600
00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:39.599
<v Speaker 3>No, no, they're not gonna know what checks are or

601
00:28:39.599 --> 00:28:40.839
<v Speaker 3>how you write checks.

602
00:28:41.440 --> 00:28:42.200
<v Speaker 2>But he's like, that's.

603
00:28:42.039 --> 00:28:44.599
<v Speaker 3>Why you put the long line after the number. He's like,

604
00:28:44.599 --> 00:28:46.720
<v Speaker 3>that way so someone can't write in and a million

605
00:28:46.759 --> 00:28:50.480
<v Speaker 3>dollars too. Yeah, so you got to whatever the long

606
00:28:50.559 --> 00:28:52.519
<v Speaker 3>line of her. Her situation here is, you got to

607
00:28:52.519 --> 00:28:55.000
<v Speaker 3>make sure that people can't write in and matumbo too.

608
00:28:55.160 --> 00:28:58.279
<v Speaker 2>Well. They talked to everyone else who worked at the bar,

609
00:28:58.359 --> 00:29:00.519
<v Speaker 2>and everybody said, yeah, no, no, he was here all night.

610
00:29:00.599 --> 00:29:03.720
<v Speaker 2>He couldn't have done it. So the court then charged

611
00:29:03.799 --> 00:29:08.000
<v Speaker 2>and convicted Amanda Knox of slander for falsely accusing him

612
00:29:08.039 --> 00:29:11.559
<v Speaker 2>in court. And this is crazy to this day. Even though,

613
00:29:12.240 --> 00:29:14.559
<v Speaker 2>as I think most people listening to this spoiler alert,

614
00:29:14.960 --> 00:29:17.920
<v Speaker 2>she's been cleared of this murder, she is actually still

615
00:29:17.960 --> 00:29:22.559
<v Speaker 2>convicted of slander against Patrick Lamumba in Italy. So she

616
00:29:22.720 --> 00:29:25.839
<v Speaker 2>still is a convicted criminal in Italy of this particular piece.

617
00:29:25.880 --> 00:29:29.000
<v Speaker 2>And the thing, even if she was tricked into doing that,

618
00:29:29.119 --> 00:29:31.640
<v Speaker 2>I think that's fair. I think it's fair because it's like,

619
00:29:31.920 --> 00:29:35.359
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, it's fuck it is, it's fucked up.

620
00:29:35.359 --> 00:29:37.240
<v Speaker 2>But I also just I mean, listen that person.

621
00:29:38.200 --> 00:29:40.359
<v Speaker 3>I don't think you can drop charges. I think that's

622
00:29:40.359 --> 00:29:44.240
<v Speaker 3>a made up thing for television. Like if your boyfriend

623
00:29:44.240 --> 00:29:47.160
<v Speaker 3>beats you up and you know you're afraid of him,

624
00:29:47.240 --> 00:29:49.119
<v Speaker 3>so you're like, I wanted, I actually don't want to

625
00:29:49.160 --> 00:29:52.079
<v Speaker 3>press charges. But if there's evidence and the cops have

626
00:29:52.160 --> 00:29:54.559
<v Speaker 3>it or blah blah blah, they actually that's up to

627
00:29:54.599 --> 00:29:57.160
<v Speaker 3>the district attorney or something like. It's up to whomever

628
00:29:57.240 --> 00:29:59.960
<v Speaker 3>would like to press those charges regardless. And so even

629
00:30:00.039 --> 00:30:02.240
<v Speaker 3>if that guy was like, oh, she got whatever, it

630
00:30:02.319 --> 00:30:04.839
<v Speaker 3>might still just be up to the whatever the district

631
00:30:04.880 --> 00:30:07.200
<v Speaker 3>attorney of Italy type of thing. Yeah, Cidy would be,

632
00:30:07.359 --> 00:30:09.359
<v Speaker 3>who will still just follow through on those charges?

633
00:30:09.680 --> 00:30:12.200
<v Speaker 2>Well, that's out of her hands. Maybe was as well.

634
00:30:12.319 --> 00:30:17.519
<v Speaker 2>That was local prosecutor Giuliano Manini who really made Amanda

635
00:30:17.599 --> 00:30:21.000
<v Speaker 2>Knox his life a living hell. He has since admitted

636
00:30:21.279 --> 00:30:23.759
<v Speaker 2>that he was operating on not much more than a

637
00:30:23.839 --> 00:30:27.119
<v Speaker 2>quote gut feeling like I'm hearing, but he was convinced

638
00:30:27.119 --> 00:30:29.400
<v Speaker 2>that Amanda and her boyfriend at the time, the guy

639
00:30:29.480 --> 00:30:33.599
<v Speaker 2>she was kissing on outside the house, This guy, Rafael Solasito,

640
00:30:33.920 --> 00:30:36.839
<v Speaker 2>that these two killed Meredith during some sort of like

641
00:30:36.960 --> 00:30:42.279
<v Speaker 2>wicked sex game. Also he posits that Rudy gued was

642
00:30:42.279 --> 00:30:45.920
<v Speaker 2>involved too. But now, who is Rudy and how does

643
00:30:45.920 --> 00:30:47.160
<v Speaker 2>he why is he in the house?

644
00:30:47.319 --> 00:30:52.359
<v Speaker 3>Rudy what Rudy was a burglar? Unrelated to the sex

645
00:30:52.400 --> 00:30:54.440
<v Speaker 3>games of this man's imagination.

646
00:30:54.079 --> 00:30:57.599
<v Speaker 2>Exactly Who's who Rudy is? The guy who they found

647
00:30:57.640 --> 00:31:01.559
<v Speaker 2>all of this DNA, bloody hand princes Prince inside, the

648
00:31:01.599 --> 00:31:04.920
<v Speaker 2>only forensic evidence that was ever found that connected a

649
00:31:04.960 --> 00:31:05.880
<v Speaker 2>person to this crime.

650
00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:09.519
<v Speaker 3>He's a just a man of happenstance, like there happened

651
00:31:09.559 --> 00:31:13.359
<v Speaker 3>to have been a burglary happening whilst but I thought

652
00:31:13.359 --> 00:31:15.359
<v Speaker 3>Amanda wasn't home originally.

653
00:31:15.759 --> 00:31:19.880
<v Speaker 2>Well yeah, that's the stories here kind of were all

654
00:31:19.920 --> 00:31:20.519
<v Speaker 2>over the place.

655
00:31:20.559 --> 00:31:23.160
<v Speaker 3>So I'm saying, like there's a version which has been

656
00:31:23.200 --> 00:31:26.519
<v Speaker 3>laid out to me and the cops where presumably this

657
00:31:26.559 --> 00:31:30.559
<v Speaker 3>house is more than one bedroom. Amanda and fucking Ricky

658
00:31:30.599 --> 00:31:31.839
<v Speaker 3>Salami whatever his name.

659
00:31:31.839 --> 00:31:34.480
<v Speaker 2>Was, We'll go with Ricky Salami, Ricky.

660
00:31:34.240 --> 00:31:38.519
<v Speaker 3>Salami the boyfriend. They're canoodling in her bedroom whilst a

661
00:31:38.559 --> 00:31:42.279
<v Speaker 3>burglar breaks in and also kills a woman and then

662
00:31:42.759 --> 00:31:46.400
<v Speaker 3>discover the body. Presumably the cops come and she decides

663
00:31:46.400 --> 00:31:49.680
<v Speaker 3>at the time to continue with Ricky Salami and some cartwheeling.

664
00:31:51.039 --> 00:31:54.599
<v Speaker 2>I mean, that's that's about as as sensible of a

665
00:31:54.640 --> 00:31:56.920
<v Speaker 2>case as the cops ever really put together here. So

666
00:31:56.960 --> 00:31:58.640
<v Speaker 2>I'm just trying to figure out how everyone's home, you know,

667
00:31:59.039 --> 00:32:03.000
<v Speaker 2>basically the only person. All that really matters, because we're

668
00:32:03.000 --> 00:32:04.880
<v Speaker 2>not doing a deep dive into this case. All that

669
00:32:04.960 --> 00:32:07.839
<v Speaker 2>really matters is that the forensics say that Rudy gued

670
00:32:07.960 --> 00:32:12.000
<v Speaker 2>was definitely there and involved. Giuliano Menini has a gut

671
00:32:12.039 --> 00:32:15.279
<v Speaker 2>feeling that Amanda and Raphael were also involved, and so

672
00:32:15.400 --> 00:32:18.119
<v Speaker 2>he put forward a number of theories about why they

673
00:32:18.160 --> 00:32:20.319
<v Speaker 2>all may have been there, even though there's never any

674
00:32:20.359 --> 00:32:22.799
<v Speaker 2>evidence that Amanda was there or not. And we kind

675
00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:25.799
<v Speaker 2>of get to this a little bit later, but Minini

676
00:32:25.960 --> 00:32:29.920
<v Speaker 2>is still convinced that, yes, Amanda, even though she's been

677
00:32:29.920 --> 00:32:34.160
<v Speaker 2>cleared of this crime, she was there and involved somehow,

678
00:32:34.640 --> 00:32:38.039
<v Speaker 2>But he doesn't know how. He can't prove it. El

679
00:32:38.200 --> 00:32:42.079
<v Speaker 2>and there's idrosecution's fucking job is to prove beyond the

680
00:32:42.119 --> 00:32:44.519
<v Speaker 2>shadow of a no. And I don't know that there's

681
00:32:44.599 --> 00:32:48.680
<v Speaker 2>ever been you know, Amanda has been cleared of all guilt.

682
00:32:48.720 --> 00:32:50.440
<v Speaker 2>I don't know that there was ever like an airtight

683
00:32:50.480 --> 00:32:55.400
<v Speaker 2>alibi that she was somewhere else anyway. As recently as

684
00:32:55.440 --> 00:32:59.079
<v Speaker 2>twenty sixteen, in a documentary that re examines the case,

685
00:32:59.440 --> 00:33:02.440
<v Speaker 2>Minini was still leaning into this theory. He said, I

686
00:33:02.519 --> 00:33:07.279
<v Speaker 2>have to remind you that her Amanda's behavior was completely inexplicable,

687
00:33:07.640 --> 00:33:11.519
<v Speaker 2>totally irrational. Amanda was a girl that was very uninhibited.

688
00:33:11.799 --> 00:33:14.880
<v Speaker 2>She would bring boys home and hearing Meredith's friends. If

689
00:33:14.920 --> 00:33:17.920
<v Speaker 2>you could imagine a girl different from Amanda in every

690
00:33:17.920 --> 00:33:20.279
<v Speaker 2>imaginable way, it would have been Meredith.

691
00:33:20.559 --> 00:33:23.480
<v Speaker 3>But being promiscuous and acting weird is not what's on

692
00:33:23.559 --> 00:33:24.079
<v Speaker 3>trial here.

693
00:33:24.519 --> 00:33:27.960
<v Speaker 2>No. But but you know this is again, this is Italy.

694
00:33:28.799 --> 00:33:31.720
<v Speaker 3>You know, the same reason this asshole twenty thousand years later,

695
00:33:31.799 --> 00:33:35.039
<v Speaker 3>still sticking to his story. They're a prideful, misogynist and

696
00:33:35.160 --> 00:33:36.200
<v Speaker 3>race racist country.

697
00:33:36.319 --> 00:33:39.599
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. The motives put forth by the prosecution were all

698
00:33:39.640 --> 00:33:43.240
<v Speaker 2>over the place. From the motive that Amanda was in

699
00:33:43.279 --> 00:33:46.640
<v Speaker 2>competition with Meredith over who was the quote alpha female

700
00:33:46.680 --> 00:33:47.200
<v Speaker 2>of the house.

701
00:33:47.240 --> 00:33:47.759
<v Speaker 3>Is that a thing?

702
00:33:48.039 --> 00:33:49.680
<v Speaker 2>I don't know they invented it.

703
00:33:49.759 --> 00:33:53.119
<v Speaker 3>I guess I'm surprised they were willing to admit that

704
00:33:53.160 --> 00:33:53.880
<v Speaker 3>a lady.

705
00:33:53.599 --> 00:33:57.359
<v Speaker 2>Could be alpha. Yeah. To one motive was that there

706
00:33:57.359 --> 00:34:02.039
<v Speaker 2>were mounting tensions over claim endliness and lifestyle differences because

707
00:34:02.039 --> 00:34:04.599
<v Speaker 2>Amanda was like a mess and a crazy lady.

708
00:34:04.680 --> 00:34:06.519
<v Speaker 3>I didn't no, killing your roommate was an option for that,

709
00:34:06.640 --> 00:34:09.800
<v Speaker 3>or else I'd be down a bunch of roommates for

710
00:34:09.840 --> 00:34:10.360
<v Speaker 3>that move.

711
00:34:11.159 --> 00:34:14.039
<v Speaker 2>Anyway, it almost doesn't really matter what motive the prosecution

712
00:34:14.159 --> 00:34:18.159
<v Speaker 2>put forward, because once this Mussolini train of justice left

713
00:34:18.199 --> 00:34:22.159
<v Speaker 2>the station, absolutely nobody could stop it. Oh my god,

714
00:34:22.320 --> 00:34:25.119
<v Speaker 2>Knox and Ricky Salami are convicted in two thousand and

715
00:34:25.199 --> 00:34:28.480
<v Speaker 2>nine Slam. They're convicted of the crime. In two thousand

716
00:34:28.519 --> 00:34:33.079
<v Speaker 2>and nine, they're quitted. In twenty eleven, they are reconvict.

717
00:34:32.559 --> 00:34:34.119
<v Speaker 3>Slippery Salami he got out of it.

718
00:34:34.239 --> 00:34:37.920
<v Speaker 2>He did. He's reconvicted in twenty fourteen, so that Slippery

719
00:34:37.920 --> 00:34:41.280
<v Speaker 2>Salami is up slipped back in the casing. And then

720
00:34:41.320 --> 00:34:45.159
<v Speaker 2>they were finally fully exonerated in twenty fifteen by the

721
00:34:45.199 --> 00:34:48.440
<v Speaker 2>Italian Supreme Court, which wrote a report using phrases like

722
00:34:48.639 --> 00:34:54.119
<v Speaker 2>quote sensational investigative failures end quote guilty omissions by the

723
00:34:54.119 --> 00:34:57.719
<v Speaker 2>prosecution phrases you really never want to see connected to

724
00:34:57.760 --> 00:34:58.440
<v Speaker 2>a court.

725
00:34:58.199 --> 00:35:01.280
<v Speaker 3>Case, or if you're them, you definitely want to see.

726
00:35:02.199 --> 00:35:06.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, yeah. Amanda and Ricky Slam each ultimately spent

727
00:35:06.880 --> 00:35:10.079
<v Speaker 2>four years in prison for a crime that everyone with

728
00:35:10.159 --> 00:35:13.280
<v Speaker 2>eyes could basically see that they didn't commit. No, but wait,

729
00:35:13.559 --> 00:35:17.239
<v Speaker 2>when does fucking Gweedoak come in? Well? Gweed was always

730
00:35:17.280 --> 00:35:19.440
<v Speaker 2>in the background because he was I'm saying, was he

731
00:35:19.719 --> 00:35:21.440
<v Speaker 2>ever yes, a suspect?

732
00:35:21.519 --> 00:35:22.199
<v Speaker 3>Is he ever convicted?

733
00:35:22.360 --> 00:35:24.440
<v Speaker 2>Yes? Yes, yes, Well we'll get to that in a second.

734
00:35:25.039 --> 00:35:28.480
<v Speaker 2>This was a weird little detail about this case. Amanda

735
00:35:28.519 --> 00:35:32.719
<v Speaker 2>Knox and Menini, the prosecutor, have struck up sort of

736
00:35:32.760 --> 00:35:35.800
<v Speaker 2>like a weird friendship after all of this.

737
00:35:35.960 --> 00:35:38.000
<v Speaker 3>The prosecutor and Amanda Ox, Yeah.

738
00:35:38.119 --> 00:35:42.239
<v Speaker 2>They regularly exchanged greeting cards and personal life updates. Like

739
00:35:42.280 --> 00:35:45.480
<v Speaker 2>I said earlier, the prosecutor, Menini insists that she was

740
00:35:45.559 --> 00:35:47.880
<v Speaker 2>president at the scene of the crime. He says, quote,

741
00:35:47.920 --> 00:35:50.800
<v Speaker 2>Amanda has changed a lot, and I think I can

742
00:35:50.840 --> 00:35:54.199
<v Speaker 2>say that I know her. We have different ideas about

743
00:35:54.199 --> 00:35:58.119
<v Speaker 2>the trial that involved us. Yeah, it seemed like that

744
00:35:58.159 --> 00:36:00.599
<v Speaker 2>was very publicly you had different ideas, But now I

745
00:36:00.639 --> 00:36:02.000
<v Speaker 2>have a good opinion of her.

746
00:36:02.119 --> 00:36:04.400
<v Speaker 3>Cool is that going to buy her four years better. No,

747
00:36:04.440 --> 00:36:05.440
<v Speaker 3>not for in prison.

748
00:36:06.559 --> 00:36:11.199
<v Speaker 2>For Knox's part, the friendship with Menini is away, she says,

749
00:36:11.239 --> 00:36:13.599
<v Speaker 2>of defanging a person who is a boogeyman in her

750
00:36:13.639 --> 00:36:16.840
<v Speaker 2>life for so long, she says, quote, whether directly or indirectly,

751
00:36:17.199 --> 00:36:19.280
<v Speaker 2>he kept being a presence in my life because he

752
00:36:19.400 --> 00:36:21.320
<v Speaker 2>was the one who portrayed me as this girl gone

753
00:36:21.400 --> 00:36:24.800
<v Speaker 2>wild who out of the blue murdered her roommate. My

754
00:36:24.880 --> 00:36:28.440
<v Speaker 2>goal was to understand him. There was this deep curiosity

755
00:36:28.440 --> 00:36:30.800
<v Speaker 2>in me to try to understand the person who decided

756
00:36:30.800 --> 00:36:34.559
<v Speaker 2>that I was a dangerous person who deserved to spend

757
00:36:34.880 --> 00:36:38.360
<v Speaker 2>the most years of my life in prison. And this

758
00:36:38.119 --> 00:36:42.320
<v Speaker 2>is this is really just the tip I got married. No, no,

759
00:36:42.360 --> 00:36:45.360
<v Speaker 2>they did it. Like I said, this is all really

760
00:36:45.480 --> 00:36:47.800
<v Speaker 2>just the tip of the iceberg.

761
00:36:47.920 --> 00:36:53.360
<v Speaker 3>Oh yeah, I'm sure there's thirty documentaries called like a

762
00:36:53.400 --> 00:36:57.440
<v Speaker 3>Hard Knocks Life or something that will tell you more

763
00:36:57.440 --> 00:36:58.440
<v Speaker 3>than we're gonna do.

764
00:36:58.760 --> 00:37:01.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And like I sort of said earlier too.

765
00:37:01.079 --> 00:37:03.400
<v Speaker 3>They'll probably use people's real names. They're not like Guido

766
00:37:03.480 --> 00:37:05.639
<v Speaker 3>the Guinea and Ricky Salami.

767
00:37:06.239 --> 00:37:09.119
<v Speaker 2>The tabloids were as guilty here as the prosecution when

768
00:37:09.119 --> 00:37:13.719
<v Speaker 2>it came to portraying Amanda as this dangerous sexy harlot,

769
00:37:14.239 --> 00:37:17.920
<v Speaker 2>and the case really featured no shortage of racist and

770
00:37:17.960 --> 00:37:21.360
<v Speaker 2>sexist assumptions and accusations that all kind of added up

771
00:37:21.400 --> 00:37:23.840
<v Speaker 2>to this over and.

772
00:37:23.760 --> 00:37:24.559
<v Speaker 3>It makes headlines.

773
00:37:24.679 --> 00:37:27.519
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, made headlines. Rudy Gweed, as you were asking for

774
00:37:27.559 --> 00:37:32.760
<v Speaker 2>his part, he was convicted, sentenced to thirty years in prison,

775
00:37:32.880 --> 00:37:36.320
<v Speaker 2>that was then reduced to sixteen, and he served thirteen

776
00:37:36.400 --> 00:37:40.199
<v Speaker 2>years with an early release granted in November twenty twenty one.

777
00:37:40.320 --> 00:37:43.679
<v Speaker 2>Is that because they couldn't tie him to the sexual.

778
00:37:43.320 --> 00:37:45.960
<v Speaker 3>Assault and throat slitting of a woman. I feel like

779
00:37:46.000 --> 00:37:47.760
<v Speaker 3>you shouldn't get thirteen years for that.

780
00:37:48.480 --> 00:37:50.920
<v Speaker 2>He served the final year of his sentence to via

781
00:37:51.039 --> 00:37:54.280
<v Speaker 2>social services and community service. So the final year of

782
00:37:54.320 --> 00:37:58.239
<v Speaker 2>his reduced, reduced thirteen years was served through community service.

783
00:37:58.320 --> 00:38:02.639
<v Speaker 3>All right, any Italian vigilanti's a list, And I mean

784
00:38:02.880 --> 00:38:03.599
<v Speaker 3>we didn't say that.

785
00:38:03.719 --> 00:38:06.719
<v Speaker 2>No, Yeah, let's not. Legally, we're not encouraging anyone to

786
00:38:06.719 --> 00:38:10.280
<v Speaker 2>find anybody. But here's the thing that really struck me

787
00:38:10.280 --> 00:38:12.760
<v Speaker 2>when I was prepping for this episode. Because of the

788
00:38:14.079 --> 00:38:17.679
<v Speaker 2>media surrounding Amanda Knox, she's sort of treated as the

789
00:38:17.719 --> 00:38:22.239
<v Speaker 2>modern poster child for false accusations and the and the

790
00:38:22.480 --> 00:38:24.280
<v Speaker 2>feeling I think a lot of people have is that

791
00:38:24.320 --> 00:38:27.719
<v Speaker 2>she's this unique miscarriage of justice, that this like that

792
00:38:27.800 --> 00:38:31.920
<v Speaker 2>this case is so special because this never happens. But unfortunately,

793
00:38:32.039 --> 00:38:37.480
<v Speaker 2>cases like Amanda's happened all over the world, and more

794
00:38:37.519 --> 00:38:40.719
<v Speaker 2>often than we would like to think. Now, because I

795
00:38:40.719 --> 00:38:43.360
<v Speaker 2>can hear some people probably screaming at the podcast already

796
00:38:43.400 --> 00:38:47.400
<v Speaker 2>and ed you or maybe even thinking this, Yes, the

797
00:38:47.440 --> 00:38:51.000
<v Speaker 2>common law system we have in many Western countries is

798
00:38:51.119 --> 00:38:54.480
<v Speaker 2>better than the alternatives. I wasn't thinking anything. Okay, I

799
00:38:54.519 --> 00:38:57.559
<v Speaker 2>agree with that statement. Probably by common law, I just

800
00:38:57.679 --> 00:39:02.079
<v Speaker 2>mean the adversarial defence versus prosecution in front of a

801
00:39:02.159 --> 00:39:06.159
<v Speaker 2>jury system. Okay, those are the cases we're mostly going

802
00:39:06.199 --> 00:39:08.719
<v Speaker 2>to be looking at in this episode. Obviously, in countries

803
00:39:08.719 --> 00:39:11.360
<v Speaker 2>with dictators or religious courts, there are plenty of people

804
00:39:11.360 --> 00:39:14.440
<v Speaker 2>who also find themselves imprisoned or dead for things that

805
00:39:14.480 --> 00:39:17.159
<v Speaker 2>they didn't do, probably at higher frequency, probably at a

806
00:39:17.239 --> 00:39:19.280
<v Speaker 2>higher frequency. But I think one of the things that's

807
00:39:19.320 --> 00:39:22.880
<v Speaker 2>really uncomfortable for us is that our system, the Western system,

808
00:39:23.000 --> 00:39:26.480
<v Speaker 2>is built on the promise of equality and fairness.

809
00:39:26.679 --> 00:39:29.880
<v Speaker 3>I mean, they have that statue, they're probably building that statue.

810
00:39:29.960 --> 00:39:32.159
<v Speaker 2>Was the last time they thought about it, but yeah,

811
00:39:32.239 --> 00:39:34.400
<v Speaker 2>and you know, if you're in a country run by

812
00:39:34.400 --> 00:39:37.800
<v Speaker 2>a dictator, you know, maybe it's a little more expected.

813
00:39:37.800 --> 00:39:40.440
<v Speaker 2>But in the West, these things aren't supposed to happen.

814
00:39:40.519 --> 00:39:42.639
<v Speaker 2>We have this fairness and justice. We get to the

815
00:39:42.719 --> 00:39:45.719
<v Speaker 2>truth really, the fact that these things aren't supposed to

816
00:39:45.760 --> 00:39:48.360
<v Speaker 2>happen but they do. The horror there actually reminds me

817
00:39:48.400 --> 00:39:51.199
<v Speaker 2>a little bit of our episode about waking up during surgery,

818
00:39:51.239 --> 00:39:54.639
<v Speaker 2>where it's like, we have access to all this incredible medicine,

819
00:39:54.920 --> 00:39:57.159
<v Speaker 2>but that doesn't mean that things can't go wrong, and

820
00:39:57.159 --> 00:40:01.320
<v Speaker 2>that when they do go wrong, the suffering is unimaginable.

821
00:40:02.320 --> 00:40:05.519
<v Speaker 2>The Innocence Project, a nonprofit that's been working since nineteen

822
00:40:05.599 --> 00:40:08.559
<v Speaker 2>ninety two to use DNA evidence to claw innocent people

823
00:40:08.639 --> 00:40:11.960
<v Speaker 2>out of American prisons, has freed more than two hundred

824
00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:14.880
<v Speaker 2>and fifty people in that time, which breaks down to

825
00:40:14.920 --> 00:40:18.079
<v Speaker 2>about seven people per year, which, make no mistake, is

826
00:40:18.119 --> 00:40:21.920
<v Speaker 2>an incredible victory, but it fails, I think to illustrate

827
00:40:22.039 --> 00:40:26.639
<v Speaker 2>how widespread the problem of false accusations and convictions really is.

828
00:40:26.639 --> 00:40:29.239
<v Speaker 2>Because you hear, oh, they free seven people a year. Okay,

829
00:40:29.280 --> 00:40:31.679
<v Speaker 2>we've made some mistakes, but that's not six kids are

830
00:40:31.760 --> 00:40:33.920
<v Speaker 2>killing their parents a week. That's true of you. So

831
00:40:34.559 --> 00:40:36.079
<v Speaker 2>the kids who kill their parents.

832
00:40:35.800 --> 00:40:38.920
<v Speaker 3>I mean, the numbers are not as impressive as the

833
00:40:38.960 --> 00:40:40.360
<v Speaker 3>kids who kill their parents' numbers.

834
00:40:40.800 --> 00:40:43.239
<v Speaker 2>The scale becomes a little clearer when you look at

835
00:40:43.239 --> 00:40:43.760
<v Speaker 2>it this way.

836
00:40:43.920 --> 00:40:45.519
<v Speaker 3>They have eight people working there for.

837
00:40:45.920 --> 00:40:47.880
<v Speaker 2>Free, kind of h I mean, I don't know what

838
00:40:47.960 --> 00:40:50.400
<v Speaker 2>the numbers of who works there, but the Innocence Project

839
00:40:50.519 --> 00:40:53.480
<v Speaker 2>I'm pulling all these numbers from their website. They only

840
00:40:53.880 --> 00:40:58.400
<v Speaker 2>take cases in which newly discovered or re examined DNA

841
00:40:58.519 --> 00:41:02.440
<v Speaker 2>evidence could prove the prisoner's innocence. Okay, so they don't.

842
00:41:02.519 --> 00:41:04.599
<v Speaker 3>They're not. They don't have the resources to fail a

843
00:41:04.599 --> 00:41:06.559
<v Speaker 3>lot at this. So let's let's go with our best

844
00:41:06.559 --> 00:41:09.320
<v Speaker 3>foot forward on cases that we actually can maybe help.

845
00:41:09.280 --> 00:41:12.320
<v Speaker 2>Right, that are very clear, black and white. You know

846
00:41:13.159 --> 00:41:15.320
<v Speaker 2>we have the DNA or we don't. This was not

847
00:41:15.360 --> 00:41:18.880
<v Speaker 2>available when you were right, and now it is so narrowing.

848
00:41:18.880 --> 00:41:23.599
<v Speaker 2>That window means that they only could even theoretically take

849
00:41:23.639 --> 00:41:27.119
<v Speaker 2>on about five to ten percent of convictions, which is

850
00:41:27.159 --> 00:41:30.039
<v Speaker 2>about how many people. The number of cases that are

851
00:41:30.239 --> 00:41:33.519
<v Speaker 2>that hinge on this DNA evidence, narrowing the window to

852
00:41:33.840 --> 00:41:37.960
<v Speaker 2>just those cases, they still receive somewhere between six to

853
00:41:38.039 --> 00:41:42.480
<v Speaker 2>eight thousand letters per year. Okay for people who are saying,

854
00:41:42.840 --> 00:41:45.800
<v Speaker 2>my case hinged on DNA evidence, you guys could get

855
00:41:45.880 --> 00:41:48.960
<v Speaker 2>me out. Now, of course, it's unlikely that every single

856
00:41:48.960 --> 00:41:51.880
<v Speaker 2>person writing those letters is innocent.

857
00:41:52.039 --> 00:41:54.599
<v Speaker 3>Now, my mom is a big Have you tried just

858
00:41:54.639 --> 00:41:58.280
<v Speaker 3>writing to Steven Spilberg? Yeah, I mean like so yeah,

859
00:41:58.360 --> 00:42:00.280
<v Speaker 3>I mean, I'm sure there is an element of like,

860
00:42:00.360 --> 00:42:02.119
<v Speaker 3>you know, one hundred percent of the shots you don't take,

861
00:42:02.119 --> 00:42:04.679
<v Speaker 3>you miss whatever, So yeah, just write to the INNOCENTCE Project.

862
00:42:04.760 --> 00:42:07.559
<v Speaker 2>But basically what we're looking at is they've they've received

863
00:42:07.599 --> 00:42:10.000
<v Speaker 2>they received six to eight thousand a year, sixty five

864
00:42:10.079 --> 00:42:13.519
<v Speaker 2>thousand letters since nineteen ninety two. So you gotta look

865
00:42:13.559 --> 00:42:16.840
<v Speaker 2>at that and go, of those sixty five thousand letters,

866
00:42:16.920 --> 00:42:20.480
<v Speaker 2>we have three interns and two unpaid full time employees. Well,

867
00:42:20.679 --> 00:42:23.920
<v Speaker 2>are there really only two hundred and fifty innocent people

868
00:42:24.280 --> 00:42:25.800
<v Speaker 2>in that pile? Yeah?

869
00:42:25.960 --> 00:42:29.719
<v Speaker 3>No, That's why I think it's probably an infrastructural like

870
00:42:29.760 --> 00:42:31.760
<v Speaker 3>we don't have enough help in money.

871
00:42:31.960 --> 00:42:35.599
<v Speaker 2>And and again that's sixty five thousand, that's two hundred

872
00:42:35.599 --> 00:42:38.880
<v Speaker 2>and fifty people freed of sixty five thousand requests of

873
00:42:39.000 --> 00:42:42.480
<v Speaker 2>five to ten percent of convictions. So the other ninety

874
00:42:42.599 --> 00:42:46.239
<v Speaker 2>percent of convictions where the DNA evidence wouldn't help, there's

875
00:42:46.280 --> 00:42:50.880
<v Speaker 2>still innocent people there too. I can't even Yeah who

876
00:42:51.199 --> 00:42:53.000
<v Speaker 2>in prisons, Yeah we have. I think we're the most

877
00:42:53.559 --> 00:42:55.119
<v Speaker 2>convicted nation.

878
00:42:55.119 --> 00:42:57.039
<v Speaker 3>On the Earth or something like that. We have more

879
00:42:57.079 --> 00:43:00.519
<v Speaker 3>there's more people in prison here than yeah capita.

880
00:43:00.559 --> 00:43:02.880
<v Speaker 2>We have more people in prison than anywhere else on earth.

881
00:43:02.920 --> 00:43:05.800
<v Speaker 3>So yeah, it actually it seems like there's maybe a

882
00:43:05.880 --> 00:43:09.880
<v Speaker 3>reason to not find people listen, yeah, if they can

883
00:43:09.960 --> 00:43:10.320
<v Speaker 3>help it.

884
00:43:10.440 --> 00:43:12.840
<v Speaker 2>But all of this is why I'm putting a link

885
00:43:12.840 --> 00:43:14.800
<v Speaker 2>in the show notes so that you can donate to

886
00:43:14.840 --> 00:43:17.159
<v Speaker 2>the Innocence Project. We're going to donate to the Innocence

887
00:43:17.199 --> 00:43:20.880
<v Speaker 2>Project in the show's name, and if you feel so inclined,

888
00:43:20.960 --> 00:43:24.880
<v Speaker 2>either already or by the end of the episode, I

889
00:43:24.920 --> 00:43:26.840
<v Speaker 2>would encourage you to donate to the Innocence.

890
00:43:26.719 --> 00:43:29.119
<v Speaker 3>I'll say, I'm fine with donating to the Innocence Project.

891
00:43:29.239 --> 00:43:30.800
<v Speaker 3>But this is a little bit like when I would

892
00:43:30.800 --> 00:43:33.400
<v Speaker 3>bring my friend with me to ask my parents if

893
00:43:33.400 --> 00:43:35.480
<v Speaker 3>he can sleep over for the night. Is this is

894
00:43:35.480 --> 00:43:37.159
<v Speaker 3>the first time hearing of it, But I am very

895
00:43:37.239 --> 00:43:39.079
<v Speaker 3>comfortable donating to the Innocence Project.

896
00:43:44.840 --> 00:43:49.360
<v Speaker 2>What's even scarier than just being falsely accused and ending

897
00:43:49.440 --> 00:43:52.159
<v Speaker 2>up in prison and begging the Innocence Project to help

898
00:43:52.199 --> 00:43:54.800
<v Speaker 2>you get out. Is that not everyone who's falsely accused

899
00:43:54.920 --> 00:43:58.280
<v Speaker 2>gets a long life sentence that they can cross their fingers.

900
00:43:58.360 --> 00:44:01.119
<v Speaker 2>Now I can do appeal and appeal and appeal. Some

901
00:44:01.159 --> 00:44:03.920
<v Speaker 2>of these innocent people end up on fucking death row,

902
00:44:04.039 --> 00:44:04.960
<v Speaker 2>which does.

903
00:44:05.280 --> 00:44:06.639
<v Speaker 3>I think a lot of those people do it get

904
00:44:06.679 --> 00:44:08.199
<v Speaker 3>to appeal and appeal and appeal and appeal for a

905
00:44:08.199 --> 00:44:10.480
<v Speaker 3>long time. I don't know if it's like a Jewish

906
00:44:10.480 --> 00:44:12.599
<v Speaker 3>burial or something where it's like they gotta be in

907
00:44:12.679 --> 00:44:13.519
<v Speaker 3>the ground.

908
00:44:13.199 --> 00:44:16.000
<v Speaker 2>Tomorrow, or something of a window that's not closing.

909
00:44:16.239 --> 00:44:18.239
<v Speaker 3>I don't know death row. I know how your anti

910
00:44:18.480 --> 00:44:22.119
<v Speaker 3>death penalty. I was pro death penalty only if the

911
00:44:22.159 --> 00:44:26.039
<v Speaker 3>person is so objectively guilty. But now in the world

912
00:44:26.039 --> 00:44:29.760
<v Speaker 3>of AI and like deep fake ability, it's like now

913
00:44:29.760 --> 00:44:31.719
<v Speaker 3>it seems things are less cut and dry for me,

914
00:44:31.880 --> 00:44:33.719
<v Speaker 3>because it's going to be harder to tell the difference.

915
00:44:33.880 --> 00:44:37.039
<v Speaker 2>Get this. In twenty fourteen, a study published in the

916
00:44:37.079 --> 00:44:40.920
<v Speaker 2>Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences took a statistical

917
00:44:40.960 --> 00:44:43.199
<v Speaker 2>look at death row inmates in the United States between

918
00:44:43.280 --> 00:44:46.800
<v Speaker 2>nineteen seventy three and two thousand and four, their conservative

919
00:44:46.920 --> 00:44:50.199
<v Speaker 2>estimate was that at least four point one percent of

920
00:44:50.280 --> 00:44:54.079
<v Speaker 2>people sentenced to death in America are factually innocent. Since

921
00:44:54.159 --> 00:44:57.119
<v Speaker 2>nineteen seventy three, more than sixteen hundred people have been

922
00:44:57.159 --> 00:44:59.719
<v Speaker 2>executed in the United States, so the state has murdered

923
00:44:59.719 --> 00:45:02.880
<v Speaker 2>around sixty five people for something they didn't do. Well,

924
00:45:02.920 --> 00:45:04.280
<v Speaker 2>that's why I was cut and dry. You need to

925
00:45:04.320 --> 00:45:04.960
<v Speaker 2>be cut and dry.

926
00:45:05.079 --> 00:45:08.360
<v Speaker 3>You can't. There can't be anything that's like hinging at

927
00:45:08.440 --> 00:45:11.280
<v Speaker 3>anything in my version some people.

928
00:45:11.320 --> 00:45:15.400
<v Speaker 2>But just a would be cutting. So what would be

929
00:45:15.400 --> 00:45:17.440
<v Speaker 2>cut and dry? Like if you've kind of got were

930
00:45:17.599 --> 00:45:20.840
<v Speaker 2>these victims skinning? Yeah? Yeah, that's pretty good example. In

931
00:45:20.880 --> 00:45:24.239
<v Speaker 2>that same span of time, the Death Penalty Information Center

932
00:45:24.239 --> 00:45:28.559
<v Speaker 2>has documented over two hundred death row exonerations. So they

933
00:45:28.599 --> 00:45:31.760
<v Speaker 2>put the ratio like this, for every eight people we've

934
00:45:31.840 --> 00:45:35.840
<v Speaker 2>executed in the modern era, one other person was sentenced

935
00:45:35.840 --> 00:45:38.719
<v Speaker 2>to die that was found innocent before we got around

936
00:45:38.719 --> 00:45:41.599
<v Speaker 2>to killing them, which feels like way too many people

937
00:45:42.559 --> 00:45:43.400
<v Speaker 2>that were.

938
00:45:43.559 --> 00:45:45.440
<v Speaker 3>But it's better than finding out after we got around

939
00:45:45.480 --> 00:45:46.000
<v Speaker 3>to killing them.

940
00:45:46.039 --> 00:45:49.199
<v Speaker 2>Well, sure, yeah it is, But you know, I think

941
00:45:49.199 --> 00:45:53.320
<v Speaker 2>it's all it's all a strong argument that you know,

942
00:45:53.760 --> 00:45:59.920
<v Speaker 2>the idea that the state should take lives is a

943
00:46:00.199 --> 00:46:04.639
<v Speaker 2>it's a difficult pill for me to swallow. But these mistakes,

944
00:46:05.039 --> 00:46:07.360
<v Speaker 2>I mean the thing I would say that the death penalty,

945
00:46:07.920 --> 00:46:09.480
<v Speaker 2>I don't see.

946
00:46:09.559 --> 00:46:12.880
<v Speaker 3>It acting as the deterrent we'd hope it would be,

947
00:46:12.880 --> 00:46:15.559
<v Speaker 3>because I guess we're not the next day just killing people.

948
00:46:15.840 --> 00:46:20.440
<v Speaker 2>But I'm saying so, if it's not actively deterring crime.

949
00:46:20.159 --> 00:46:22.760
<v Speaker 3>Then I don't really see the benefit of it, other

950
00:46:22.880 --> 00:46:25.920
<v Speaker 3>than if you've got someone who's cut and dry and

951
00:46:26.000 --> 00:46:28.519
<v Speaker 3>you just want to erase that person, then erase a person,

952
00:46:28.559 --> 00:46:31.519
<v Speaker 3>I guess, but I don't see that. It's I don't

953
00:46:31.559 --> 00:46:35.280
<v Speaker 3>see that like people erasure is like, I don't see

954
00:46:35.320 --> 00:46:36.679
<v Speaker 3>the net benefit of it.

955
00:46:36.880 --> 00:46:39.079
<v Speaker 2>I will say this, The only thing I'll give you

956
00:46:39.239 --> 00:46:42.679
<v Speaker 2>is that I would love to read a nineteen seventies

957
00:46:42.800 --> 00:46:46.800
<v Speaker 2>like paperback pulp series called The People Eraser. I would

958
00:46:46.840 --> 00:46:51.639
<v Speaker 2>definitely read that book. So these mistakes, though, also aren't new.

959
00:46:51.679 --> 00:46:57.119
<v Speaker 2>There is old as courts themselves, maybe older, well, definitely older.

960
00:46:57.159 --> 00:46:59.920
<v Speaker 2>I guess before courts, if you were falsely accused.

961
00:47:00.480 --> 00:47:02.039
<v Speaker 3>You're getting stoned either way.

962
00:47:02.119 --> 00:47:04.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, what happened to you basically came down to how

963
00:47:04.679 --> 00:47:05.800
<v Speaker 2>fast you could run.

964
00:47:05.760 --> 00:47:08.480
<v Speaker 3>Exactly, which is why the case I keep any of

965
00:47:08.480 --> 00:47:11.920
<v Speaker 3>what I said in It's gotta be there can be

966
00:47:12.159 --> 00:47:15.400
<v Speaker 3>no shadow of doubt, and not through trickery of great

967
00:47:15.920 --> 00:47:20.840
<v Speaker 3>legal Perry Mason minds. I mean, hey man, everyone was

968
00:47:20.880 --> 00:47:24.559
<v Speaker 3>standing right there. Everyone was standing right there. Let's just

969
00:47:24.599 --> 00:47:25.519
<v Speaker 3>erase this person.

970
00:47:25.920 --> 00:47:31.280
<v Speaker 2>Stories of false accusations and wrongful convictions are, unfortunately the

971
00:47:31.440 --> 00:47:35.360
<v Speaker 2>story of human justice. One of the earliest cases I

972
00:47:35.400 --> 00:47:38.840
<v Speaker 2>could find tracks as it so often does on this show,

973
00:47:38.920 --> 00:47:42.400
<v Speaker 2>back to ancient Greece, the birthplace of democracy, the land

974
00:47:42.400 --> 00:47:45.519
<v Speaker 2>of philosophers and people who are just as likely to

975
00:47:45.519 --> 00:47:47.760
<v Speaker 2>make mistakes in matters regarding life and death as we

976
00:47:47.800 --> 00:47:51.599
<v Speaker 2>are today. As part of their complex and sophisticated society,

977
00:47:51.639 --> 00:47:55.840
<v Speaker 2>the Greeks employed a board of ten treasurers known as

978
00:47:55.960 --> 00:48:01.239
<v Speaker 2>the Heleno TAMIAI. These men were the most senior, most trusted,

979
00:48:01.280 --> 00:48:04.280
<v Speaker 2>being counters in the Greek speaking world, and oversaw the

980
00:48:04.320 --> 00:48:07.000
<v Speaker 2>funds and taxes that were paid by members of the

981
00:48:07.039 --> 00:48:11.599
<v Speaker 2>Athenian Empire as tribute to the empire. While not an

982
00:48:11.639 --> 00:48:14.320
<v Speaker 2>easy job, because from the research I did, it sounds

983
00:48:14.400 --> 00:48:17.280
<v Speaker 2>like just like people who do this work today. The

984
00:48:17.320 --> 00:48:20.599
<v Speaker 2>payments came in from all over, sometimes partial, sometimes late,

985
00:48:20.719 --> 00:48:23.559
<v Speaker 2>you had to go track it down. It was otherwise

986
00:48:23.599 --> 00:48:26.519
<v Speaker 2>a pretty boring and safe job most of the time.

987
00:48:26.639 --> 00:48:28.840
<v Speaker 3>Caybe that's safe. I mean money is not a computer.

988
00:48:29.039 --> 00:48:31.519
<v Speaker 2>Well it wasn't this time, because in four forty BC,

989
00:48:31.920 --> 00:48:35.920
<v Speaker 2>these financial masterminds made a clerical error that would cost

990
00:48:35.920 --> 00:48:39.760
<v Speaker 2>them their lives. Somewhere around that time, for forty PC,

991
00:48:39.920 --> 00:48:42.719
<v Speaker 2>there was an audit of the books, and the audit

992
00:48:42.880 --> 00:48:47.960
<v Speaker 2>appeared to show that the Heleno TAMIAI had skimmed money.

993
00:48:48.039 --> 00:48:51.360
<v Speaker 2>The Greeks, in their wisdom, arrested and tried these guys

994
00:48:51.360 --> 00:48:53.800
<v Speaker 2>one by one and found all ten of them guilty.

995
00:48:54.199 --> 00:48:57.960
<v Speaker 2>They were each put to death except this last guy, Sosius.

996
00:48:58.559 --> 00:49:01.159
<v Speaker 2>And that's because at some point in all of this

997
00:49:01.639 --> 00:49:05.280
<v Speaker 2>someone rechecked the math and it turns out there was

998
00:49:05.360 --> 00:49:09.079
<v Speaker 2>no money missing at all. Oh no, they were missing.

999
00:49:10.000 --> 00:49:12.639
<v Speaker 2>Now they're missing nine and they were missing a bead

1000
00:49:12.719 --> 00:49:16.360
<v Speaker 2>on the avacus. Basically, yeah, someone slipped the bead the

1001
00:49:16.400 --> 00:49:21.239
<v Speaker 2>wrong way and nine people died. So the Helena to

1002
00:49:21.320 --> 00:49:23.559
<v Speaker 2>me I had done nothing wrong, as I'm sure they

1003
00:49:23.559 --> 00:49:26.920
<v Speaker 2>each probably loudly proclaimed the court before they were killed.

1004
00:49:28.280 --> 00:49:31.400
<v Speaker 2>Our only source for this story is that this guy

1005
00:49:31.719 --> 00:49:34.599
<v Speaker 2>Antiphon mentioned it in a courtroom speech he wrote for

1006
00:49:34.639 --> 00:49:38.159
<v Speaker 2>someone else's murder trial, which I think we touched on

1007
00:49:38.199 --> 00:49:39.840
<v Speaker 2>these courtroom speeches that people gave.

1008
00:49:39.920 --> 00:49:41.760
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, Cicero, it was in Rome.

1009
00:49:41.800 --> 00:49:44.760
<v Speaker 2>But still, yeah, we have another Ciso story coming up

1010
00:49:44.800 --> 00:49:47.480
<v Speaker 2>here in a minute. He was no, but yeah, So

1011
00:49:47.519 --> 00:49:49.519
<v Speaker 2>we may not have the whole story here. We don't

1012
00:49:49.519 --> 00:49:51.800
<v Speaker 2>have a ton of surviving information about these guys, but

1013
00:49:52.039 --> 00:49:52.559
<v Speaker 2>it must have.

1014
00:49:52.480 --> 00:49:54.440
<v Speaker 3>Been a famous enough event that they was able to

1015
00:49:54.519 --> 00:49:57.400
<v Speaker 3>use it in like his arguments that it was understood

1016
00:49:57.440 --> 00:49:59.079
<v Speaker 3>that people know who the fuck I'm talking about.

1017
00:49:59.239 --> 00:50:03.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And and I thought it was just an interesting

1018
00:50:03.400 --> 00:50:07.559
<v Speaker 2>place to start with the history of false accusations because

1019
00:50:07.800 --> 00:50:12.920
<v Speaker 2>it's a documented case in ancient history of people going

1020
00:50:13.159 --> 00:50:16.119
<v Speaker 2>you're guilty, You're guilty, and them going what are you

1021
00:50:16.199 --> 00:50:19.800
<v Speaker 2>talking about? No, I'm not. And really, back then there

1022
00:50:19.880 --> 00:50:21.480
<v Speaker 2>was not much of a way out of it. I'm

1023
00:50:21.519 --> 00:50:25.679
<v Speaker 2>glad for Sosius's sake that somebody rechecked the math. I

1024
00:50:25.719 --> 00:50:29.079
<v Speaker 2>don't know whose job that was, but luckily that person

1025
00:50:29.199 --> 00:50:31.280
<v Speaker 2>was better at it than these ten guys.

1026
00:50:31.639 --> 00:50:36.400
<v Speaker 3>Just don't or Socio, the birthplace of sociopath. Yeah, Socio

1027
00:50:36.920 --> 00:50:39.239
<v Speaker 3>was better at making the argument that someone should reach

1028
00:50:39.280 --> 00:50:41.239
<v Speaker 3>out than the previous nine people.

1029
00:50:41.400 --> 00:50:45.679
<v Speaker 2>I guess so, yeah, the masterminds of the Greek system

1030
00:50:45.760 --> 00:50:48.679
<v Speaker 2>killed nine guys who really didn't deserve it. But how

1031
00:50:48.679 --> 00:50:51.239
<v Speaker 2>about the Romans. Those guys seem to have a good

1032
00:50:51.239 --> 00:50:54.239
<v Speaker 2>thing going. How would they fare three hundred and sixty

1033
00:50:54.320 --> 00:50:57.639
<v Speaker 2>years later when faced to the case that featured accusations

1034
00:50:57.719 --> 00:51:00.599
<v Speaker 2>even more sinister? What year was the first one? Four

1035
00:51:00.679 --> 00:51:03.159
<v Speaker 2>forty BC? I thought it was three sixty BC. I'm like,

1036
00:51:03.199 --> 00:51:06.760
<v Speaker 2>are we doing Jesus? No? No, no, no, no, no, okay,

1037
00:51:06.840 --> 00:51:09.239
<v Speaker 2>although way, I guess yeah, he would be a pretty

1038
00:51:09.239 --> 00:51:15.199
<v Speaker 2>famous falsely accused guy. Now, the Romans, three hundred and

1039
00:51:15.239 --> 00:51:17.519
<v Speaker 2>sixty years later, were faced to the case that was

1040
00:51:17.559 --> 00:51:21.320
<v Speaker 2>even more sinister than a ripoff sensor test. This actually

1041
00:51:21.320 --> 00:51:24.079
<v Speaker 2>ties into our last episode, or not our last episode,

1042
00:51:24.119 --> 00:51:26.360
<v Speaker 2>but a few episodes ago about kids who killed their parents,

1043
00:51:26.639 --> 00:51:29.719
<v Speaker 2>because the case in question here involves a man named

1044
00:51:29.760 --> 00:51:33.480
<v Speaker 2>Sextus Rossius who is accused of killing his father. But

1045
00:51:33.559 --> 00:51:37.039
<v Speaker 2>let's back up a little. There were actually two Sextuses

1046
00:51:37.440 --> 00:51:40.480
<v Speaker 2>involved here. Sick so awesome that we're doing this on

1047
00:51:40.519 --> 00:51:43.039
<v Speaker 2>no sleep. Extremely confusing.

1048
00:51:43.239 --> 00:51:45.719
<v Speaker 3>Also, it sounds like the guy who tried to try

1049
00:51:46.159 --> 00:51:49.239
<v Speaker 3>a man in Ox may have used the same exact sentence.

1050
00:51:51.199 --> 00:51:55.119
<v Speaker 2>There are two sextuses involved here, Sextus the Junior and

1051
00:51:55.199 --> 00:51:58.159
<v Speaker 2>Sextus the Senior. Okay, though back then they were just

1052
00:51:58.239 --> 00:52:01.760
<v Speaker 2>sextist Rassius and Sextus raw. And I can't believe anybody

1053
00:52:01.880 --> 00:52:04.679
<v Speaker 2>was able to build a functioning society in a world

1054
00:52:04.760 --> 00:52:07.360
<v Speaker 2>where you could just name two people the same thing.

1055
00:52:07.880 --> 00:52:11.239
<v Speaker 2>But in any case, Sexist Senior was a very wealthy

1056
00:52:11.239 --> 00:52:13.000
<v Speaker 2>man who was stabbed to death on the streets of

1057
00:52:13.079 --> 00:52:14.960
<v Speaker 2>Rome while walking home from a dinner one night in

1058
00:52:15.000 --> 00:52:18.159
<v Speaker 2>eighty one BC. Hate to hear it, suspicion fell on

1059
00:52:18.239 --> 00:52:19.280
<v Speaker 2>Sexist Junior.

1060
00:52:19.599 --> 00:52:21.679
<v Speaker 3>That's not where I would have gone.

1061
00:52:21.519 --> 00:52:25.360
<v Speaker 2>And he was where would you have gone? Was walking home? Yeah,

1062
00:52:25.400 --> 00:52:27.880
<v Speaker 2>who're just somebody's they have him like he was a robbery,

1063
00:52:27.920 --> 00:52:29.480
<v Speaker 2>you know what I mean? Like it was a like

1064
00:52:29.519 --> 00:52:33.039
<v Speaker 2>he was held up. Well, when you hear that someone

1065
00:52:33.119 --> 00:52:35.400
<v Speaker 2>was like coming home from work and they were killed

1066
00:52:35.440 --> 00:52:38.119
<v Speaker 2>and like their wallet take it. You don't immediately go

1067
00:52:38.199 --> 00:52:40.679
<v Speaker 2>like I bet their son did. Well, his wallet wasn't taken.

1068
00:52:40.880 --> 00:52:43.360
<v Speaker 2>It said he was rich, his property was We'll get

1069
00:52:43.400 --> 00:52:46.840
<v Speaker 2>to that in a second. Oh jeez, Sexist Junior was

1070
00:52:46.920 --> 00:52:50.719
<v Speaker 2>formally accused of patricide in court not long after. Now

1071
00:52:50.800 --> 00:52:53.960
<v Speaker 2>sexist Junior claimed he had nothing to do with the

1072
00:52:54.000 --> 00:52:56.000
<v Speaker 2>death of his father. If you haven't listened to kids

1073
00:52:56.000 --> 00:52:58.159
<v Speaker 2>who kill their parents, you should go do that, and

1074
00:52:58.199 --> 00:53:00.559
<v Speaker 2>you should learn about the Roman punishment for killing your

1075
00:53:00.599 --> 00:53:03.079
<v Speaker 2>mother or your father. Oh yeah, so you understand that

1076
00:53:03.119 --> 00:53:07.440
<v Speaker 2>sexist Junior was facing the sack. Oh shit, dude, and

1077
00:53:07.480 --> 00:53:09.880
<v Speaker 2>the sack is mean as hell. So in a desperate

1078
00:53:09.920 --> 00:53:14.440
<v Speaker 2>attempt to escape the sack, Sextist hired Cicero Okay, at

1079
00:53:14.440 --> 00:53:17.400
<v Speaker 2>the time, a fresh faced twenty six year old lawyer.

1080
00:53:17.840 --> 00:53:20.519
<v Speaker 2>He would go on, aged Yeah, you would go on

1081
00:53:20.559 --> 00:53:22.679
<v Speaker 2>to become one of the most famous legal minds in

1082
00:53:22.760 --> 00:53:26.559
<v Speaker 2>history and a heavy hitter in Roman politics, partially because

1083
00:53:26.679 --> 00:53:28.159
<v Speaker 2>of the outcome of this trial.

1084
00:53:28.280 --> 00:53:31.760
<v Speaker 3>You know, that's how fucking what's his head? Julius Caesar

1085
00:53:32.239 --> 00:53:35.840
<v Speaker 3>started in the court system, and he would he would

1086
00:53:35.880 --> 00:53:38.239
<v Speaker 3>defend much to the chagrin I feel like of other

1087
00:53:38.239 --> 00:53:40.960
<v Speaker 3>people in the courts and all his other shit. He

1088
00:53:40.960 --> 00:53:44.320
<v Speaker 3>would So basically, the Romans would go and take your place,

1089
00:53:44.559 --> 00:53:46.039
<v Speaker 3>and it'd be like, you're part of the empire. Now

1090
00:53:46.159 --> 00:53:48.079
<v Speaker 3>you have to give us like we get. We would

1091
00:53:48.159 --> 00:53:52.760
<v Speaker 3>still a governor and you pay like this guy taxes essentially,

1092
00:53:53.519 --> 00:53:56.800
<v Speaker 3>and the governor was almost always a piece of shit, right,

1093
00:53:57.840 --> 00:54:01.079
<v Speaker 3>I think that was like Julius Caesar's wasn't culturiouses at

1094
00:54:01.079 --> 00:54:03.000
<v Speaker 3>the time, but I'm saying like, I think that was his.

1095
00:54:03.199 --> 00:54:05.119
<v Speaker 2>He defended people from.

1096
00:54:04.920 --> 00:54:09.159
<v Speaker 3>Those places who had gripes or grievances with their new

1097
00:54:09.239 --> 00:54:13.199
<v Speaker 3>landlords or new installed governors, and which is apparently an

1098
00:54:13.400 --> 00:54:17.880
<v Speaker 3>unpopular thing to do, yes in you know Rome. Yeah,

1099
00:54:18.039 --> 00:54:20.920
<v Speaker 3>And so that's like, so he was like his early

1100
00:54:21.000 --> 00:54:23.719
<v Speaker 3>career was like he's fucking for the people, like he's

1101
00:54:24.079 --> 00:54:24.760
<v Speaker 3>one of us.

1102
00:54:24.880 --> 00:54:28.360
<v Speaker 2>Well, and Cicero faced a similar but he was young,

1103
00:54:28.400 --> 00:54:31.000
<v Speaker 2>I'm saying young like this in his twenties, Cicero faced

1104
00:54:31.199 --> 00:54:35.039
<v Speaker 2>a similar sticky wicket with this murder trial because it

1105
00:54:35.119 --> 00:54:39.760
<v Speaker 2>was also a political minefield. At the time, Rome was

1106
00:54:39.840 --> 00:54:43.199
<v Speaker 2>under the thumb of a dictator named Sulla. Sullah was

1107
00:54:43.400 --> 00:54:45.400
<v Speaker 2>bad news from the beginning. He was a general who

1108
00:54:45.480 --> 00:54:48.880
<v Speaker 2>took power by marching on Rome. He oversaw the massacre

1109
00:54:48.880 --> 00:54:52.760
<v Speaker 2>of six thousand prisoners of war and initiated public lists

1110
00:54:52.800 --> 00:54:55.760
<v Speaker 2>of individuals deemed enemies of the state, who were then

1111
00:54:55.800 --> 00:54:58.199
<v Speaker 2>brutally hunted down and killed yeah, you're supposed to leave

1112
00:54:58.199 --> 00:55:00.840
<v Speaker 2>that army outside of the walls. Over five hundred and

1113
00:55:00.880 --> 00:55:04.320
<v Speaker 2>twenty victims were formally listed, and thousands of others were

1114
00:55:04.480 --> 00:55:08.440
<v Speaker 2>likely murdered from this what was known as a proscription list.

1115
00:55:08.679 --> 00:55:12.440
<v Speaker 2>So that's all important because it was very curious that

1116
00:55:12.559 --> 00:55:17.960
<v Speaker 2>the Rassius family estates were added to the proscription list

1117
00:55:18.360 --> 00:55:23.000
<v Speaker 2>by a man named Lucius Cornelius Chrysogonus, who was a

1118
00:55:23.159 --> 00:55:27.320
<v Speaker 2>powerful freedman or slave who'd been freed and was loyal

1119
00:55:28.000 --> 00:55:32.480
<v Speaker 2>to Sulah the dictator. Okay, so sexist senior is killed.

1120
00:55:32.559 --> 00:55:35.800
<v Speaker 2>I will say this about ancient Rome, it does seem interesting.

1121
00:55:36.119 --> 00:55:39.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah that I might be misremembering this, but it did

1122
00:55:40.000 --> 00:55:42.800
<v Speaker 2>feel like one of those societies that we kind of

1123
00:55:42.880 --> 00:55:46.480
<v Speaker 2>didn't get again for a long long time where it

1124
00:55:46.559 --> 00:55:50.000
<v Speaker 2>was like the only place, it seems like where you

1125
00:55:50.039 --> 00:55:52.599
<v Speaker 2>have stories that was like born a slave, Yeah, ended

1126
00:55:52.679 --> 00:55:54.920
<v Speaker 2>up owning half of downtown in Rome.

1127
00:55:55.119 --> 00:55:58.800
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's like they or like born a slave has

1128
00:55:58.800 --> 00:56:02.920
<v Speaker 3>a talent in baking, ended up making the fucking wedding

1129
00:56:02.960 --> 00:56:06.639
<v Speaker 3>cake for the like it's there was a weirdly a

1130
00:56:06.960 --> 00:56:10.079
<v Speaker 3>way to move up sure that society where like you

1131
00:56:10.199 --> 00:56:14.320
<v Speaker 3>just simply wouldn't see in like medieval feudal societies and shit,

1132
00:56:14.719 --> 00:56:17.039
<v Speaker 3>we're like born a slave, slave for life, born a farmer,

1133
00:56:17.079 --> 00:56:17.800
<v Speaker 3>farmer for life.

1134
00:56:18.000 --> 00:56:19.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's kind of interesting.

1135
00:56:19.039 --> 00:56:20.800
<v Speaker 3>You run into characters like this guy who was like

1136
00:56:20.840 --> 00:56:22.719
<v Speaker 3>freed slave who's super powerful.

1137
00:56:22.920 --> 00:56:27.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and this guy, this guy flexed his muscles because

1138
00:56:27.599 --> 00:56:33.679
<v Speaker 2>sexist senior is killed. And then chrysogonists adds his estate

1139
00:56:34.280 --> 00:56:39.599
<v Speaker 2>to this list of property that can be claimed by

1140
00:56:39.679 --> 00:56:44.400
<v Speaker 2>the state. Okay, and then wouldn't you know who bought the.

1141
00:56:44.519 --> 00:56:46.079
<v Speaker 3>Estate at pennies on the dolls?

1142
00:56:46.119 --> 00:56:50.079
<v Speaker 2>Pennies on the dollar chrysogonists, and by we actually know

1143
00:56:50.159 --> 00:56:53.199
<v Speaker 2>the in trouble for that, We well.

1144
00:56:53.199 --> 00:56:54.320
<v Speaker 3>Guy wanted his house back.

1145
00:56:54.360 --> 00:56:57.400
<v Speaker 2>It's his family's house back. No, it's not his family's house.

1146
00:56:57.440 --> 00:57:00.199
<v Speaker 2>Oh I thought the sun bought it back. No, I

1147
00:57:00.239 --> 00:57:05.679
<v Speaker 2>who accused the son bought it for pennies? Yes, that's worse. Yeah,

1148
00:57:05.719 --> 00:57:07.239
<v Speaker 2>you want to hire a lawyer there. And we know

1149
00:57:07.360 --> 00:57:11.960
<v Speaker 2>the numbers. It was worth nearly six million sistercees, which

1150
00:57:12.000 --> 00:57:14.079
<v Speaker 2>I guess was there at that time at the time,

1151
00:57:14.679 --> 00:57:18.199
<v Speaker 2>and chrysagonists snapped it up for around two thousand. Dude,

1152
00:57:18.199 --> 00:57:20.159
<v Speaker 2>that's like the TikTok sale. That's insane.

1153
00:57:20.400 --> 00:57:22.519
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, there's a lot of seems like crupture there too,

1154
00:57:22.840 --> 00:57:25.519
<v Speaker 3>But I'm saying, like that is a real devaluation of

1155
00:57:25.559 --> 00:57:27.519
<v Speaker 3>something we all knew was worth more. Yeah.

1156
00:57:27.559 --> 00:57:32.000
<v Speaker 2>So, according to Cicero, within nine days of Sextus Senior

1157
00:57:32.119 --> 00:57:36.599
<v Speaker 2>being killed, Chrysagonists had purchased the property, placed a relative

1158
00:57:36.639 --> 00:57:41.760
<v Speaker 2>of Sexus's named Titus Rochius Magnus in charge of the property,

1159
00:57:41.800 --> 00:57:46.159
<v Speaker 2>and had Sextus Junior evicted. Okay, but there was a

1160
00:57:46.199 --> 00:57:48.719
<v Speaker 2>member of his family who made out like a bandit. Yeah,

1161
00:57:48.719 --> 00:57:50.840
<v Speaker 2>he's in charge of the property, cousin basically, and there's

1162
00:57:50.840 --> 00:57:54.159
<v Speaker 2>actually there were actually two. So Sextus gets evicted and

1163
00:57:54.239 --> 00:58:00.239
<v Speaker 2>flees Chrysogonus, Titus Magnus, and a third man, confusingly also

1164
00:58:00.360 --> 00:58:02.599
<v Speaker 2>named Titus Rossius Capito.

1165
00:58:02.840 --> 00:58:04.920
<v Speaker 3>I think there was, like I was reading something, there

1166
00:58:05.039 --> 00:58:07.079
<v Speaker 3>was like a thing where everyone had the same name.

1167
00:58:07.239 --> 00:58:09.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, like like for real, it was like a normal thing,

1168
00:58:09.280 --> 00:58:13.400
<v Speaker 2>so that people knew what lineage you were. Yeah. I

1169
00:58:13.440 --> 00:58:15.840
<v Speaker 2>think they basically just like kind of we've sort of

1170
00:58:15.880 --> 00:58:18.679
<v Speaker 2>flipped first names and last names, where like you know,

1171
00:58:18.960 --> 00:58:21.760
<v Speaker 2>your family lineage is now named by your last name.

1172
00:58:21.800 --> 00:58:23.599
<v Speaker 2>And I think they were doing it by first man

1173
00:58:23.639 --> 00:58:27.000
<v Speaker 2>who knows whatever doing who knows what? What? What these

1174
00:58:27.039 --> 00:58:30.679
<v Speaker 2>three motherfuckers got up to though, was they banded together,

1175
00:58:30.920 --> 00:58:34.239
<v Speaker 2>they went to court and accused Sextus of murdering his father.

1176
00:58:34.519 --> 00:58:36.559
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and so that then they all made out like bandits.

1177
00:58:36.719 --> 00:58:40.639
<v Speaker 2>Yes. Add to that the fact that Sexist Junior was

1178
00:58:40.679 --> 00:58:44.320
<v Speaker 2>not even in Rome the night of the murder, things

1179
00:58:44.360 --> 00:58:47.119
<v Speaker 2>start to look pretty suspicious. Yeah.

1180
00:58:47.119 --> 00:58:48.840
<v Speaker 3>But if you can get him in the sack fast enough,

1181
00:58:48.920 --> 00:58:50.559
<v Speaker 3>which is why I said, it's got to be open

1182
00:58:50.599 --> 00:58:54.000
<v Speaker 3>and shutcase for the for murdering his guys random murder

1183
00:58:54.239 --> 00:58:57.760
<v Speaker 3>the next day, that's a problem, the peason of real buying.

1184
00:58:58.000 --> 00:59:03.360
<v Speaker 2>The problem for Cicero was because Chrysagnus was Slah's boy.

1185
00:59:03.840 --> 00:59:06.519
<v Speaker 2>He couldn't just walk into court and be like, this

1186
00:59:06.599 --> 00:59:09.039
<v Speaker 2>guy did it, this guy orchestrated this murder, the guy

1187
00:59:09.039 --> 00:59:12.519
<v Speaker 2>who's running Rome as his buddy. Yeah, because then Cicero

1188
00:59:12.639 --> 00:59:14.719
<v Speaker 2>himself might not survive the trial.

1189
00:59:14.920 --> 00:59:15.280
<v Speaker 3>Sure.

1190
00:59:15.880 --> 00:59:18.519
<v Speaker 2>So, according to a summary of the case that I

1191
00:59:18.599 --> 00:59:22.880
<v Speaker 2>found on Stories of Antiquity, Cicero suggested that Sexist Junior

1192
00:59:22.960 --> 00:59:26.719
<v Speaker 2>neither wanted to nor had the opportunity to kill his father,

1193
00:59:27.280 --> 00:59:29.559
<v Speaker 2>and that he did not have the quote depraved and

1194
00:59:29.679 --> 00:59:32.079
<v Speaker 2>vicious nature to carry out such an act.

1195
00:59:32.159 --> 00:59:37.039
<v Speaker 3>He brings up like thirty witnesses to like character witnesses

1196
00:59:37.079 --> 00:59:39.519
<v Speaker 3>to testify that he's a fucking spineless little bit.

1197
00:59:39.719 --> 00:59:41.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was like, this is getting mean.

1198
00:59:41.880 --> 00:59:43.960
<v Speaker 2>On the thirtieth witness, He's like, this is what's gonna

1199
00:59:43.960 --> 00:59:48.440
<v Speaker 2>save your life. Shut up the prosecutor. Although this was

1200
00:59:48.440 --> 00:59:51.079
<v Speaker 2>a little confusing because some places I found said that

1201
00:59:51.119 --> 00:59:53.920
<v Speaker 2>the prosecutor used this argument, and then other places said

1202
00:59:53.920 --> 00:59:57.679
<v Speaker 2>that Cicero used this argument. But at some point one

1203
00:59:57.760 --> 01:00:01.800
<v Speaker 2>side I believe the prosecution brought up a qui bono

1204
01:00:02.039 --> 01:00:05.239
<v Speaker 2>argument or the who benefits argument. Don't even know what

1205
01:00:05.320 --> 01:00:07.920
<v Speaker 2>that okay, Qui bono is a legal phrase that means

1206
01:00:07.960 --> 01:00:09.920
<v Speaker 2>who benefits. It's a way of looking at so pro

1207
01:00:10.000 --> 01:00:11.920
<v Speaker 2>bono means no one for free?

1208
01:00:12.079 --> 01:00:14.599
<v Speaker 3>Yeah for free? Is all I think of. Yeah, sonny bono?

1209
01:00:14.880 --> 01:00:15.559
<v Speaker 2>The argument?

1210
01:00:15.599 --> 01:00:17.800
<v Speaker 3>The problem long enough what it meant.

1211
01:00:18.000 --> 01:00:22.559
<v Speaker 2>The prosecution's argument seems to have been that if the

1212
01:00:22.719 --> 01:00:27.800
<v Speaker 2>upstanding trio of chrysogonists Capito and Magnus had not stepped

1213
01:00:27.880 --> 01:00:30.719
<v Speaker 2>in that sextist Junior would have walked away with the

1214
01:00:30.760 --> 01:00:34.199
<v Speaker 2>spoils of his father's estate. So his argument was, look who,

1215
01:00:34.280 --> 01:00:38.159
<v Speaker 2>look who was to benefit Sexist Junior, and these guys,

1216
01:00:38.360 --> 01:00:41.519
<v Speaker 2>thank God for them coming around to make sure that

1217
01:00:41.519 --> 01:00:44.920
<v Speaker 2>that didn't happen. Okay, But in a defense known as

1218
01:00:44.960 --> 01:00:49.920
<v Speaker 2>the pro rostio, the Rachamon defense, or eighteen different people

1219
01:00:49.960 --> 01:00:52.559
<v Speaker 2>saw eighteen different things, he did in a defense known

1220
01:00:52.599 --> 01:00:57.159
<v Speaker 2>as the pro rascio Amerino defense, that we have it

1221
01:00:57.280 --> 01:01:01.559
<v Speaker 2>survived in its entirety. Cicero added that argument by pointing

1222
01:01:01.599 --> 01:01:05.159
<v Speaker 2>out that no chrysoginist benefits a lot more since he's

1223
01:01:05.320 --> 01:01:10.280
<v Speaker 2>currently sitting on six million sisterices of stolen property. And

1224
01:01:10.360 --> 01:01:12.920
<v Speaker 2>he also took great pains to make sure that his

1225
01:01:13.079 --> 01:01:17.679
<v Speaker 2>argument didn't implicate the dictator Sullah at all. He called

1226
01:01:17.760 --> 01:01:22.039
<v Speaker 2>Sullah a most illustrious and valiant citizen and let the

1227
01:01:22.119 --> 01:01:28.039
<v Speaker 2>question of acquittal of Sextist Junior quote rest with Slah himself.

1228
01:01:28.400 --> 01:01:31.719
<v Speaker 2>A conviction was a threat to the noble institutions that

1229
01:01:31.760 --> 01:01:34.960
<v Speaker 2>Sullah was attempting to restore, and so he had to

1230
01:01:35.000 --> 01:01:39.760
<v Speaker 2>find Sextist Rassius not guilty and therefore accept that that

1231
01:01:39.960 --> 01:01:42.920
<v Speaker 2>chrysogonists had acted wrongly. You know what, did you even

1232
01:01:42.960 --> 01:01:44.239
<v Speaker 2>take over this place by force?

1233
01:01:44.360 --> 01:01:47.880
<v Speaker 3>Four? If not to be a just man man.

1234
01:01:49.800 --> 01:01:52.960
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, there's no evidence that charges were brought against

1235
01:01:53.199 --> 01:01:57.519
<v Speaker 2>either of these other three guys kept the house sexist Junior. Well,

1236
01:01:58.000 --> 01:01:59.480
<v Speaker 2>I'll get that in a second. So there's there's no

1237
01:01:59.519 --> 01:02:03.280
<v Speaker 2>evidence charges were brought against these three guys. No record

1238
01:02:03.360 --> 01:02:07.639
<v Speaker 2>exists of Chrysoceness after the trial, so he may have

1239
01:02:08.880 --> 01:02:12.960
<v Speaker 2>angered Sulah by participating in this. There's also no evidence

1240
01:02:12.960 --> 01:02:15.719
<v Speaker 2>of what happened to Texast Junior after the trial. Some

1241
01:02:16.239 --> 01:02:19.280
<v Speaker 2>I would say most of the historians that I looked

1242
01:02:19.320 --> 01:02:23.239
<v Speaker 2>at for this thought that he would have reinherited his land,

1243
01:02:23.280 --> 01:02:25.320
<v Speaker 2>but there's no evidence one way or the other. We

1244
01:02:25.440 --> 01:02:28.159
<v Speaker 2>do know that that that very house is where a

1245
01:02:28.199 --> 01:02:34.159
<v Speaker 2>man was rendering yeah, bump bum. We do know that Cicero,

1246
01:02:34.719 --> 01:02:38.280
<v Speaker 2>after this case was over, left Rome to what he

1247
01:02:38.400 --> 01:02:42.400
<v Speaker 2>said was to tour Greece for his health, which may

1248
01:02:42.440 --> 01:02:47.840
<v Speaker 2>have been a Roman way of saying I'm gonna lay yeah.

1249
01:02:47.880 --> 01:02:50.960
<v Speaker 2>And then Sullah died two years later, and so Cicero

1250
01:02:51.119 --> 01:02:54.800
<v Speaker 2>was able to turn and become the famous man that

1251
01:02:54.840 --> 01:02:58.719
<v Speaker 2>he did. So normally, this would be the point where

1252
01:02:58.760 --> 01:03:03.199
<v Speaker 2>we would take a finer look at our fears as

1253
01:03:03.239 --> 01:03:06.760
<v Speaker 2>it changes and evolves throughout history. But we're going to

1254
01:03:06.800 --> 01:03:10.000
<v Speaker 2>take a massive jump from the Roman forum to the

1255
01:03:10.039 --> 01:03:13.400
<v Speaker 2>modern era. Okay, there are plenty of cases of false

1256
01:03:13.440 --> 01:03:16.480
<v Speaker 2>accusations in between, not to mention the entire sale and

1257
01:03:16.519 --> 01:03:20.599
<v Speaker 2>witch trials that could fit in here, But the details

1258
01:03:20.639 --> 01:03:23.000
<v Speaker 2>of the modern cases that I want to cover are

1259
01:03:23.079 --> 01:03:26.039
<v Speaker 2>so wild and unbelievable and infuriating.

1260
01:03:26.360 --> 01:03:28.519
<v Speaker 3>That's why it's just an Episode's not been fun so far,

1261
01:03:28.559 --> 01:03:31.519
<v Speaker 3>because it's the infuriating part. Like I hate hearing.

1262
01:03:31.320 --> 01:03:34.199
<v Speaker 2>About people who get fucking fucked over, Yeah, I hate it.

1263
01:03:34.440 --> 01:03:37.639
<v Speaker 2>That's why it's a it's a real fear. Yeah. The

1264
01:03:37.679 --> 01:03:40.239
<v Speaker 2>first case that I want to talk about is known

1265
01:03:40.760 --> 01:03:44.440
<v Speaker 2>to I think most people of our generation basically as

1266
01:03:44.480 --> 01:03:48.960
<v Speaker 2>a punchline O J. Simpson, Well that too, clearly the

1267
01:03:48.960 --> 01:03:52.920
<v Speaker 2>most falsely accused man in history. And when I say, Dingo,

1268
01:03:53.599 --> 01:03:57.000
<v Speaker 2>you say my baby, my baby, do you know where

1269
01:03:57.039 --> 01:04:00.000
<v Speaker 2>that saying comes from or whild Australia it does come

1270
01:04:00.079 --> 01:04:04.440
<v Speaker 2>from a woman? I assume I think it's a lady. Yeah, not,

1271
01:04:04.519 --> 01:04:07.199
<v Speaker 2>I assume that women would have just say I think

1272
01:04:07.199 --> 01:04:11.480
<v Speaker 2>it was a lady and her kid is gone and

1273
01:04:11.679 --> 01:04:16.039
<v Speaker 2>accused the Dingo of of making sure that happened. And

1274
01:04:16.119 --> 01:04:17.400
<v Speaker 2>I think making sure.

1275
01:04:17.960 --> 01:04:22.679
<v Speaker 3>I think it was the dingo has the did eat

1276
01:04:22.760 --> 01:04:25.000
<v Speaker 3>the baby or at least took the baby.

1277
01:04:25.800 --> 01:04:27.400
<v Speaker 2>Do you know what a baby was? Dingo?

1278
01:04:27.920 --> 01:04:29.400
<v Speaker 3>Dingo raised by a dingo?

1279
01:04:29.840 --> 01:04:31.000
<v Speaker 2>Do you know why we think of it as a

1280
01:04:31.079 --> 01:04:32.320
<v Speaker 2>joke because I didn't know this.

1281
01:04:32.760 --> 01:04:36.239
<v Speaker 3>I I don't know why it's thought of as a joke,

1282
01:04:36.320 --> 01:04:39.079
<v Speaker 3>but I do know that it seemingly exists in the

1283
01:04:39.159 --> 01:04:46.360
<v Speaker 3>same weird place in cultural history as when you look

1284
01:04:46.400 --> 01:04:50.400
<v Speaker 3>into the person who burnt their legs with McDonald's coffee,

1285
01:04:50.440 --> 01:04:51.880
<v Speaker 3>it actually they.

1286
01:04:51.840 --> 01:04:53.800
<v Speaker 2>Did deserve the money money.

1287
01:04:53.840 --> 01:04:57.480
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I think this is in tandem with that, where

1288
01:04:57.519 --> 01:05:01.280
<v Speaker 3>it was like one of those upon further inspection, we

1289
01:05:01.320 --> 01:05:03.320
<v Speaker 3>should never have been part of monologues.

1290
01:05:04.400 --> 01:05:07.760
<v Speaker 2>Yes. The reason it entered the American lexicon though, and

1291
01:05:07.840 --> 01:05:10.079
<v Speaker 2>I didn't know this, is that there is an episode

1292
01:05:10.079 --> 01:05:13.159
<v Speaker 2>of Seinfeld. Oh yeah, yeah, that's that's what made it

1293
01:05:13.239 --> 01:05:16.760
<v Speaker 2>a popular The Dingo eight my baby, Yeah, came from

1294
01:05:16.800 --> 01:05:17.840
<v Speaker 2>that episode of Seinfeld.

1295
01:05:18.199 --> 01:05:22.119
<v Speaker 3>Double dip came from Seinfeld. YadA, YadA, YadA comes from Seinfeld.

1296
01:05:22.159 --> 01:05:26.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Seinfeld is responsible for like an insane number of

1297
01:05:26.599 --> 01:05:28.679
<v Speaker 2>ubiquitous and culture things.

1298
01:05:28.880 --> 01:05:29.920
<v Speaker 3>Yes, it's pretty wild.

1299
01:05:30.039 --> 01:05:32.039
<v Speaker 2>It's funny, though, I'll put the clip in the show

1300
01:05:32.079 --> 01:05:36.360
<v Speaker 2>notes and you know, famously, I've never watched that much Seinfeld,

1301
01:05:36.400 --> 01:05:38.079
<v Speaker 2>and it's something that I do want to start from

1302
01:05:38.079 --> 01:05:40.920
<v Speaker 2>the beginning someday. My parents when I was growing up,

1303
01:05:40.960 --> 01:05:43.440
<v Speaker 2>it's the best show ever made. That's what I hear.

1304
01:05:44.039 --> 01:05:45.760
<v Speaker 3>I don't know why it's not higher on lists.

1305
01:05:45.800 --> 01:05:48.159
<v Speaker 2>I've never been I've never been a big sitcom guy.

1306
01:05:48.199 --> 01:05:50.440
<v Speaker 2>It was one of my parents ever watched sitcoms, and

1307
01:05:50.480 --> 01:05:53.559
<v Speaker 2>they thought that like Friends in Seinfeld were like dangerous

1308
01:05:53.599 --> 01:05:54.960
<v Speaker 2>to society. Friends was fine.

1309
01:05:55.039 --> 01:06:00.239
<v Speaker 3>Seinfeld's unbelievable. You rewatching parts of one and all of

1310
01:06:00.280 --> 01:06:05.039
<v Speaker 3>the other a million times. Seinfeld's just mind bogglingly good

1311
01:06:05.480 --> 01:06:08.280
<v Speaker 3>and loving it when I was young. It's a thing

1312
01:06:08.360 --> 01:06:12.679
<v Speaker 3>whereupon rewatch, you're like, oh, it's the one with that

1313
01:06:12.760 --> 01:06:14.639
<v Speaker 3>in it, or it's the one with this in it,

1314
01:06:15.000 --> 01:06:16.000
<v Speaker 3>or that's the episode.

1315
01:06:16.079 --> 01:06:17.960
<v Speaker 2>Famously, how Friends episodes, well that's what.

1316
01:06:17.880 --> 01:06:21.719
<v Speaker 3>They're title, but they're fuck them. The The thing is

1317
01:06:21.719 --> 01:06:23.280
<v Speaker 3>is that I bring it.

1318
01:06:23.280 --> 01:06:25.679
<v Speaker 2>Up many reasons I hate Friends. Yeah.

1319
01:06:25.840 --> 01:06:29.480
<v Speaker 3>The real I bring it up though, is when rewatching

1320
01:06:30.320 --> 01:06:34.079
<v Speaker 3>the number of times I was truly blown away by

1321
01:06:34.119 --> 01:06:38.119
<v Speaker 3>the fact that the I sometimes when I think that, oh,

1322
01:06:38.159 --> 01:06:42.239
<v Speaker 3>that's the one with this that's a b story, even

1323
01:06:42.280 --> 01:06:46.639
<v Speaker 3>the same episode that has a equally, that's the one way,

1324
01:06:47.360 --> 01:06:50.199
<v Speaker 3>like there are episodes where you think of them, they're

1325
01:06:50.280 --> 01:06:53.000
<v Speaker 3>each thing is so iconic that they must have been

1326
01:06:53.000 --> 01:06:56.639
<v Speaker 3>their own episodes, but sometimes too iconic. That's the one

1327
01:06:56.679 --> 01:07:01.280
<v Speaker 3>with is in one fucking Episode's I can go all

1328
01:07:01.320 --> 01:07:05.280
<v Speaker 3>there's probably ten twenty thirty billion podcasts about Seinfeld, but

1329
01:07:05.320 --> 01:07:07.760
<v Speaker 3>it's just it's just mind boggling.

1330
01:07:07.840 --> 01:07:09.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Do I think they deserved all the money they got? No?

1331
01:07:10.639 --> 01:07:12.159
<v Speaker 2>I think that that that the fact that.

1332
01:07:12.199 --> 01:07:15.199
<v Speaker 3>All these deals were closed and never opened again to

1333
01:07:15.239 --> 01:07:19.480
<v Speaker 3>the remainder of people making television shows, that's a loss.

1334
01:07:19.559 --> 01:07:22.480
<v Speaker 3>That's a bummer. But holy shit, is it good anyway?

1335
01:07:22.719 --> 01:07:24.679
<v Speaker 3>You've fucked up? Man, I'm not only about Seinfeld the

1336
01:07:24.679 --> 01:07:25.599
<v Speaker 3>whole rest of the episode.

1337
01:07:25.599 --> 01:07:28.440
<v Speaker 2>Now, if you watch the clip, it is just funny?

1338
01:07:28.639 --> 01:07:29.719
<v Speaker 3>Is Elaine Bennas says it?

1339
01:07:29.760 --> 01:07:32.760
<v Speaker 2>Elaine says it. Yeah, But it's something that if you

1340
01:07:32.840 --> 01:07:35.960
<v Speaker 2>watch it now and you weren't alive at the time,

1341
01:07:36.119 --> 01:07:39.639
<v Speaker 2>like you watched the clip, it barely makes sense. You're like,

1342
01:07:39.679 --> 01:07:41.519
<v Speaker 2>why is what? What is she? Like? What the fuck?

1343
01:07:41.639 --> 01:07:44.559
<v Speaker 2>Dingoweight ma baby? But it was a news yeah, at

1344
01:07:44.559 --> 01:07:46.119
<v Speaker 2>the time it was. But if you watched it now

1345
01:07:46.199 --> 01:07:47.719
<v Speaker 2>you'd be like, why is this even a joke? I

1346
01:07:47.719 --> 01:07:48.920
<v Speaker 2>don't understand what's happening.

1347
01:07:48.960 --> 01:07:51.039
<v Speaker 3>Well, I think because, I mean, what else are you

1348
01:07:51.039 --> 01:07:53.079
<v Speaker 3>going to talk about that episode that Jerry was dating

1349
01:07:53.119 --> 01:07:54.400
<v Speaker 3>a seventeen year old.

1350
01:07:54.199 --> 01:07:56.400
<v Speaker 2>In real life. Yeah, I feel like it's better to

1351
01:07:56.519 --> 01:07:59.719
<v Speaker 2>talk about other things than dudes. Anyway. At the time

1352
01:08:00.039 --> 01:08:02.400
<v Speaker 2>that the episode aired, at Lane's line was a reference

1353
01:08:02.440 --> 01:08:04.719
<v Speaker 2>to something that had been in the news, the tragic

1354
01:08:04.800 --> 01:08:09.880
<v Speaker 2>tale of Lyndy Chamberlain. So come with me, listener back

1355
01:08:09.920 --> 01:08:14.559
<v Speaker 2>to August seventeenth, nineteen eighty the Australian outback at Uluru,

1356
01:08:15.159 --> 01:08:18.279
<v Speaker 2>at a place formerly known as Ayr's Rock, which is

1357
01:08:18.359 --> 01:08:20.479
<v Speaker 2>this I'd never heard of it before, but it is

1358
01:08:20.520 --> 01:08:25.439
<v Speaker 2>this massive sandstone monolith right in the center of the country,

1359
01:08:25.479 --> 01:08:28.680
<v Speaker 2>in Land that is about in the center of the country. Yeah,

1360
01:08:28.880 --> 01:08:31.239
<v Speaker 2>there's nothing inhabitable in the center of the country. Yeah, right,

1361
01:08:31.239 --> 01:08:36.880
<v Speaker 2>it's inhospitable, uninhabitable, but it's beautiful. The rock itself. It

1362
01:08:37.000 --> 01:08:38.600
<v Speaker 2>a The best way I can describe it is that

1363
01:08:38.640 --> 01:08:40.479
<v Speaker 2>it almost just looks like a big lump in the

1364
01:08:40.520 --> 01:08:43.720
<v Speaker 2>carpet of the earth, like it just sort of rises

1365
01:08:43.800 --> 01:08:46.520
<v Speaker 2>up and it's huge. And one of the reasons it's

1366
01:08:46.560 --> 01:08:49.520
<v Speaker 2>famous is because when the sun sets, it lights up

1367
01:08:49.560 --> 01:08:53.279
<v Speaker 2>like all these different colors. It's beautiful. But it's at

1368
01:08:53.319 --> 01:08:55.359
<v Speaker 2>this place, in the middle of the summer that a

1369
01:08:55.439 --> 01:08:58.720
<v Speaker 2>Seventh day Adventist pastor named Michael Chamberlain and his wife

1370
01:08:58.800 --> 01:09:01.680
<v Speaker 2>Lindy go camping with their three children. One of their

1371
01:09:01.720 --> 01:09:05.000
<v Speaker 2>three children is a nine week old baby girl named Azaria,

1372
01:09:05.079 --> 01:09:08.239
<v Speaker 2>which seems young. Yeah, you could not have paid me

1373
01:09:08.399 --> 01:09:11.399
<v Speaker 2>to take Felix camping at nine weeks old. At nine

1374
01:09:11.439 --> 01:09:13.239
<v Speaker 2>weeks old in the center, on the center of the sun,

1375
01:09:13.319 --> 01:09:15.439
<v Speaker 2>like on the surface of the sun in the middle. Yeah,

1376
01:09:15.800 --> 01:09:18.479
<v Speaker 2>babies have to feed every two hours. They sleep a lot,

1377
01:09:18.520 --> 01:09:20.520
<v Speaker 2>but they also wake up a lot. Yes, but this

1378
01:09:20.680 --> 01:09:23.640
<v Speaker 2>is their third kid. Is their third kid. They threw

1379
01:09:23.680 --> 01:09:26.279
<v Speaker 2>it in a backpack and said, funny, Yeah, I don't

1380
01:09:26.479 --> 01:09:28.800
<v Speaker 2>I think all the things you dealt with. I think

1381
01:09:28.800 --> 01:09:31.640
<v Speaker 2>by the third kid you need diapers and supply just

1382
01:09:31.960 --> 01:09:34.960
<v Speaker 2>I don't know why you would. But anyway, why does

1383
01:09:35.000 --> 01:09:38.079
<v Speaker 2>their religion matter? Well we'll get to that in a minute, okay.

1384
01:09:38.439 --> 01:09:41.920
<v Speaker 2>According to an article on Famous trials dot Com, quote

1385
01:09:42.119 --> 01:09:46.199
<v Speaker 2>Lindy Cradling Azaria in her arms explored a formation called

1386
01:09:46.279 --> 01:09:50.600
<v Speaker 2>Fertility Cave. Just outside the cave, she looked up uneasily

1387
01:09:50.680 --> 01:09:53.439
<v Speaker 2>to see a dingo staring at her. She would later

1388
01:09:53.479 --> 01:09:55.720
<v Speaker 2>tell a detective that she had the feeling the wild

1389
01:09:55.760 --> 01:10:00.079
<v Speaker 2>dog was quote casing the baby. In any case, did

1390
01:10:00.199 --> 01:10:02.720
<v Speaker 2>bother her that much, because around eight o'clock that night,

1391
01:10:02.880 --> 01:10:07.159
<v Speaker 2>Lindy puts Azaria down in the tent and heads back

1392
01:10:07.199 --> 01:10:10.079
<v Speaker 2>to the campfire to join the adults. Ten minutes later,

1393
01:10:10.279 --> 01:10:13.000
<v Speaker 2>she hears the baby screaming. She rushes to the tent

1394
01:10:13.159 --> 01:10:16.000
<v Speaker 2>and sees the dingo coming out, dragging something behind it,

1395
01:10:16.079 --> 01:10:19.119
<v Speaker 2>and his area is gone. Lindy lets out a scream

1396
01:10:19.239 --> 01:10:21.640
<v Speaker 2>that would eventually become one of the most mock lines

1397
01:10:21.680 --> 01:10:24.319
<v Speaker 2>in history. A Dingo's got my baby.

1398
01:10:24.439 --> 01:10:27.840
<v Speaker 3>Even knowing it's a it's a misnomerk, the one we

1399
01:10:27.880 --> 01:10:29.000
<v Speaker 3>all know is not actually the.

1400
01:10:28.920 --> 01:10:31.720
<v Speaker 2>Thing she said, right, Well she she did. I think

1401
01:10:31.760 --> 01:10:34.720
<v Speaker 2>she did actually say later, A dingo ate my baby? Well,

1402
01:10:34.720 --> 01:10:36.359
<v Speaker 2>she said, A Dingo's got my baby.

1403
01:10:36.479 --> 01:10:38.640
<v Speaker 3>But I'm saying in the moment, I think a dingo

1404
01:10:38.800 --> 01:10:41.439
<v Speaker 3>ate my favorite is the one we all know, Yes, yes, yes, yes,

1405
01:10:41.479 --> 01:10:46.439
<v Speaker 3>I'm saying the way that everybody misquotes like Star Wars Luke, Luke,

1406
01:10:46.680 --> 01:10:47.960
<v Speaker 3>my father, that's not.

1407
01:10:47.920 --> 01:10:50.239
<v Speaker 2>What he said. They misquote or is it a Mandela effect?

1408
01:10:50.399 --> 01:10:52.760
<v Speaker 2>I don't. The only person who would know is upstairs.

1409
01:10:53.199 --> 01:10:58.479
<v Speaker 2>I don't fucking memorize God. Three other campers heard her scream.

1410
01:10:58.600 --> 01:11:02.039
<v Speaker 2>A woman named Sally Love had seen a dingo lurking

1411
01:11:02.520 --> 01:11:04.680
<v Speaker 2>just a few feet behind her near the trash bins

1412
01:11:04.720 --> 01:11:08.279
<v Speaker 2>only minutes earlier. There were dingo tracks all around and

1413
01:11:08.439 --> 01:11:11.600
<v Speaker 2>inside the tent, there were drag marks in the sand,

1414
01:11:11.800 --> 01:11:14.840
<v Speaker 2>and even the chief ranger at Aluu, a guy named

1415
01:11:14.840 --> 01:11:18.319
<v Speaker 2>Derek Roff, had been writing desperate letters to the government

1416
01:11:18.600 --> 01:11:23.000
<v Speaker 2>for two years begging them to deal with the aggressive dingoes.

1417
01:11:23.239 --> 01:11:27.479
<v Speaker 3>And yet there was a tourist who was doing cartwheels nearby,

1418
01:11:27.760 --> 01:11:35.039
<v Speaker 3>and that person was arrested for the baby. Yeah, the baby.

1419
01:11:36.800 --> 01:11:39.359
<v Speaker 2>We should pause for a second here, I think to

1420
01:11:39.399 --> 01:11:42.439
<v Speaker 2>cover what exactly a dingo is, because outside of this

1421
01:11:42.520 --> 01:11:45.760
<v Speaker 2>specific case, the idea that dingoes are dangerous is and

1422
01:11:45.920 --> 01:11:49.640
<v Speaker 2>dingo is not their species. I think it's baby. Just

1423
01:11:49.680 --> 01:11:53.800
<v Speaker 2>what you call it a wild dog? Well, what you're saying,

1424
01:11:54.239 --> 01:11:56.600
<v Speaker 2>so you you do you know what a ding You

1425
01:11:56.680 --> 01:11:58.600
<v Speaker 2>know what a dingo is. It's basically a whild it's

1426
01:11:58.600 --> 01:12:01.039
<v Speaker 2>a wild dog. Yeah, it looks sort of like a coyote,

1427
01:12:01.119 --> 01:12:03.359
<v Speaker 2>fox wolf hybrid. It's cute.

1428
01:12:03.359 --> 01:12:04.680
<v Speaker 3>But I don't know it was something. I'm saying if

1429
01:12:04.720 --> 01:12:07.079
<v Speaker 3>you went to the Museum of History, or if you

1430
01:12:07.119 --> 01:12:09.920
<v Speaker 3>went to the Museum of Natural History in Australia and

1431
01:12:10.000 --> 01:12:12.479
<v Speaker 3>they have a bunch of like stuffed animals, would one

1432
01:12:12.600 --> 01:12:17.319
<v Speaker 3>say dingo or is dingo a colloquial term for kind

1433
01:12:17.319 --> 01:12:19.079
<v Speaker 3>of a wild rough wolf.

1434
01:12:19.199 --> 01:12:21.840
<v Speaker 2>No, it is the scientific name for a dingo, is

1435
01:12:21.920 --> 01:12:23.199
<v Speaker 2>Canis lupus dingo.

1436
01:12:23.600 --> 01:12:26.239
<v Speaker 3>Okay, so it's a fucking dingo. I'm saying it's it's

1437
01:12:26.359 --> 01:12:28.920
<v Speaker 3>not it's not like, uh.

1438
01:12:28.479 --> 01:12:30.800
<v Speaker 2>It does sound like something you call a stupid person

1439
01:12:30.960 --> 01:12:32.560
<v Speaker 2>or like that fucking dingo.

1440
01:12:32.920 --> 01:12:34.319
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I'm just saying that I didn't know if it

1441
01:12:34.359 --> 01:12:36.880
<v Speaker 3>was colloquial or it was just like any wild dog.

1442
01:12:37.119 --> 01:12:40.279
<v Speaker 3>That's that's I'm sure you'd be like fucking dingos around here.

1443
01:12:40.359 --> 01:12:44.079
<v Speaker 2>I'm sure there's some you know, crossover just I don't care.

1444
01:12:44.840 --> 01:12:46.520
<v Speaker 2>I just wanted to know if it's called ding it

1445
01:12:46.560 --> 01:12:48.960
<v Speaker 2>is called a dingo. Okay, they are cute. I also

1446
01:12:48.960 --> 01:12:50.960
<v Speaker 2>think coyotes are cute, and everyone has to remind me

1447
01:12:51.000 --> 01:12:52.399
<v Speaker 2>not to go near them when I see them walking

1448
01:12:52.399 --> 01:12:55.279
<v Speaker 2>here on the neighborhood, And that's sort of what happened here.

1449
01:12:55.319 --> 01:12:59.319
<v Speaker 2>According to Wikipedia, tourists in parts of Australia found dingo's

1450
01:12:59.359 --> 01:13:02.760
<v Speaker 2>cute as well, and quote the tourism industry on the

1451
01:13:02.760 --> 01:13:07.479
<v Speaker 2>island encouraged people to approach dingoes without caution, and such

1452
01:13:07.560 --> 01:13:12.359
<v Speaker 2>encounters basically became expected by tourists. People lost their caution

1453
01:13:12.479 --> 01:13:15.159
<v Speaker 2>when dealing with dingoes more and more frequently, and the

1454
01:13:15.239 --> 01:13:20.039
<v Speaker 2>number of reported interactions they call them increased.

1455
01:13:20.199 --> 01:13:23.720
<v Speaker 3>I think I do wonder if it's something where it's like, ah,

1456
01:13:24.239 --> 01:13:27.479
<v Speaker 3>we just need to train the dingoes to be comfortable

1457
01:13:27.520 --> 01:13:30.520
<v Speaker 3>with people versus shooting all the dingo.

1458
01:13:31.359 --> 01:13:35.319
<v Speaker 2>Well yeah. A scientist named Bradley Smith, who had been

1459
01:13:35.359 --> 01:13:39.239
<v Speaker 2>researching wild dog behavior at the Central Queensland University, put

1460
01:13:39.279 --> 01:13:41.840
<v Speaker 2>it simply in twenty thirteen when he said the problem

1461
01:13:42.039 --> 01:13:45.039
<v Speaker 2>is with humans and not with the dingoes. Well, yeah,

1462
01:13:45.039 --> 01:13:45.680
<v Speaker 2>that's what I'm saying.

1463
01:13:45.880 --> 01:13:48.119
<v Speaker 3>These people's ideas like, well, trade them to just be

1464
01:13:48.239 --> 01:13:49.600
<v Speaker 3>comfortable with humans.

1465
01:13:49.319 --> 01:13:52.840
<v Speaker 2>Dogs, the dingo dogs who were called aggressive were simply

1466
01:13:52.880 --> 01:13:56.600
<v Speaker 2>behaving naturally. Some research actually says that the dingo problem

1467
01:13:56.800 --> 01:13:59.079
<v Speaker 2>they were having. Is similar to the problem campers and

1468
01:13:59.119 --> 01:14:02.520
<v Speaker 2>the States have with bears quote bears a fucking no

1469
01:14:02.640 --> 01:14:04.680
<v Speaker 2>joke that we did that eating alive grizzlies.

1470
01:14:05.000 --> 01:14:06.640
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, get me out of the woods.

1471
01:14:06.840 --> 01:14:09.720
<v Speaker 2>It is assumed quote that dingoes might have started to

1472
01:14:09.760 --> 01:14:13.640
<v Speaker 2>regard human food sources like garbage cans, leftover his handouts, whatever,

1473
01:14:13.680 --> 01:14:17.239
<v Speaker 2>as part of their territory, and that attacks on humans

1474
01:14:17.279 --> 01:14:21.359
<v Speaker 2>occurred because the dingoes then see humans as competitors to quote,

1475
01:14:21.359 --> 01:14:23.800
<v Speaker 2>you know, their food, okay, and they want to protect

1476
01:14:23.800 --> 01:14:26.640
<v Speaker 2>their food sources. And we do know. Actually, in this case,

1477
01:14:27.079 --> 01:14:31.159
<v Speaker 2>just moments before the dingo snatched the baby, Michael, the

1478
01:14:31.239 --> 01:14:37.039
<v Speaker 2>dad was entertaining his son Aidan by tossing crusts of

1479
01:14:37.079 --> 01:14:40.199
<v Speaker 2>bread to a dingo that came towards the camp, and

1480
01:14:40.279 --> 01:14:42.520
<v Speaker 2>Lindy actually said, you shouldn't encourage them.

1481
01:14:42.880 --> 01:14:47.039
<v Speaker 3>Okay, you think they're still together, I don't know. That

1482
01:14:47.159 --> 01:14:49.119
<v Speaker 3>led to a bunch of arguments when once their baby

1483
01:14:49.159 --> 01:14:49.920
<v Speaker 3>was dragged.

1484
01:14:49.640 --> 01:14:55.199
<v Speaker 2>Off back to Derek Ruff for a minute, he must

1485
01:14:55.199 --> 01:14:57.600
<v Speaker 2>have seen these warning signs. Maybe the dingoes were having

1486
01:14:57.600 --> 01:15:00.880
<v Speaker 2>food scarcity problems, or they were particularly irritated by the

1487
01:15:00.880 --> 01:15:03.359
<v Speaker 2>presence of people in their territory, but whatever the case,

1488
01:15:03.720 --> 01:15:07.159
<v Speaker 2>one of them snatched Azaria on that tragic night, and

1489
01:15:07.439 --> 01:15:12.520
<v Speaker 2>in February nineteen eighty one, the initial inquest found that

1490
01:15:12.600 --> 01:15:16.920
<v Speaker 2>Azaria had been taken by a dingo. It was open

1491
01:15:16.960 --> 01:15:22.119
<v Speaker 2>and shutcase. But the local cops did not like this explanation.

1492
01:15:22.720 --> 01:15:26.800
<v Speaker 2>One of them, John Lincoln, said, a dingo attack like

1493
01:15:26.840 --> 01:15:30.960
<v Speaker 2>this quote never happened before. That's a fact you can't beat.

1494
01:15:31.399 --> 01:15:35.680
<v Speaker 2>Never ever happened. He also scoffed at the possibility that

1495
01:15:35.720 --> 01:15:39.520
<v Speaker 2>a dog could lug a ten pound baby over hundreds

1496
01:15:39.520 --> 01:15:42.960
<v Speaker 2>of yards. To prove his point, he filled a pail

1497
01:15:43.039 --> 01:15:46.640
<v Speaker 2>with ten pounds of sand and challenged other officers to

1498
01:15:46.640 --> 01:15:49.079
<v Speaker 2>see if they could hold it in their mouth. That's

1499
01:15:49.119 --> 01:15:52.039
<v Speaker 2>not we're not built the same as it. This guy's

1500
01:15:52.039 --> 01:15:55.199
<v Speaker 2>an idiot. This this is some real I mean reading this,

1501
01:15:55.319 --> 01:15:59.960
<v Speaker 2>I was imagining super Troopers. Yeah, like, come on, man,

1502
01:16:00.039 --> 01:16:03.199
<v Speaker 2>a dragon Barba dude, this is it's a barba thing.

1503
01:16:04.079 --> 01:16:07.239
<v Speaker 2>So John Lincoln was just like, he's just a fucking asshole,

1504
01:16:07.319 --> 01:16:12.399
<v Speaker 2>an idiot, asshole, idiot who also dingo attacks had happened

1505
01:16:12.479 --> 01:16:15.560
<v Speaker 2>before a million percent. Is just they didn't get their

1506
01:16:15.560 --> 01:16:18.800
<v Speaker 2>best and brightest in the center of Australia's police force. Yeah,

1507
01:16:18.800 --> 01:16:21.880
<v Speaker 2>and there's so, as with most of the cases we're

1508
01:16:21.880 --> 01:16:26.920
<v Speaker 2>talking about today, this the actual sprawl of this case

1509
01:16:27.159 --> 01:16:29.880
<v Speaker 2>is crazy and long and so much shit.

1510
01:16:30.119 --> 01:16:32.680
<v Speaker 3>So I have noticed there as a common denominator. Yeah,

1511
01:16:32.720 --> 01:16:35.199
<v Speaker 3>it's a person in a position of power, whether it's

1512
01:16:35.279 --> 01:16:42.560
<v Speaker 3>the prosecutor or a law enforcement person, who is obstinate

1513
01:16:42.640 --> 01:16:47.319
<v Speaker 3>to the point of most people can't understand their judgment.

1514
01:16:48.079 --> 01:16:51.399
<v Speaker 3>To get these people railroaded to begin with, Yeah, someone

1515
01:16:51.439 --> 01:16:54.960
<v Speaker 3>who's you know, my gut told me this and no

1516
01:16:55.039 --> 01:16:57.800
<v Speaker 3>matter what happens, I'm not gonna believe it.

1517
01:16:58.039 --> 01:16:59.359
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, however long it takes.

1518
01:16:59.399 --> 01:17:02.439
<v Speaker 3>Or a person who was just like this lady's clearly

1519
01:17:02.520 --> 01:17:05.960
<v Speaker 3>lying because I'm a flathead who can't understand anything and

1520
01:17:06.720 --> 01:17:09.359
<v Speaker 3>I'm but I also have a badge, so I'm allowed

1521
01:17:09.359 --> 01:17:12.880
<v Speaker 3>to fucking Yeah, you know, say this person needs to

1522
01:17:12.920 --> 01:17:14.880
<v Speaker 3>go jail for I don't know what they did with

1523
01:17:14.920 --> 01:17:17.000
<v Speaker 3>their baby, but a dingo didn't take it.

1524
01:17:17.560 --> 01:17:20.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there's so, there's there's a bunch of things that

1525
01:17:20.079 --> 01:17:23.479
<v Speaker 2>happened that led to what happened next. But essentially you

1526
01:17:23.640 --> 01:17:25.720
<v Speaker 2>had a bunch of cops who felt there's no way

1527
01:17:25.720 --> 01:17:29.520
<v Speaker 2>this could be accurate. Another investigator who came into the case,

1528
01:17:29.600 --> 01:17:34.439
<v Speaker 2>Detective Sergeant Graham Charlewood, his eyebrows shot up when he

1529
01:17:34.720 --> 01:17:38.880
<v Speaker 2>read notes in the initial report that cleared Lindy of wrongdoing.

1530
01:17:39.039 --> 01:17:40.800
<v Speaker 2>There was a note in there, for instance, the.

1531
01:17:41.159 --> 01:17:44.359
<v Speaker 3>Report that cleared her, or the report that he saw

1532
01:17:44.479 --> 01:17:47.079
<v Speaker 3>that would that he had an issue with that would

1533
01:17:47.119 --> 01:17:48.039
<v Speaker 3>later get her cleared.

1534
01:17:48.199 --> 01:17:51.439
<v Speaker 2>No, the report that the initial inquest that said we

1535
01:17:51.520 --> 01:17:55.039
<v Speaker 2>interviewed everybody, open shutcase that Dingo took the baby. There

1536
01:17:55.079 --> 01:17:58.760
<v Speaker 2>was some notes in that case file that made Graham

1537
01:17:58.840 --> 01:18:02.800
<v Speaker 2>Charles Woods the eyebrows shoot up off his head. One

1538
01:18:02.840 --> 01:18:05.760
<v Speaker 2>of those notes was that when Lindy brought Azaria in

1539
01:18:05.800 --> 01:18:10.199
<v Speaker 2>for a medical checkup recently prior to the yeah, the

1540
01:18:10.239 --> 01:18:13.880
<v Speaker 2>baby was dressed in all black. The examine I mean,

1541
01:18:14.720 --> 01:18:17.479
<v Speaker 2>the examining doctor is said to have been curious enough

1542
01:18:17.520 --> 01:18:19.640
<v Speaker 2>about the name Azaria to look it up in a

1543
01:18:19.680 --> 01:18:22.880
<v Speaker 2>dictionary of names and discovered that it meant an angel

1544
01:18:23.000 --> 01:18:27.079
<v Speaker 2>name sacrifice in the wilderness. I'm I'm is it? Did

1545
01:18:27.119 --> 01:18:29.800
<v Speaker 2>you look it up yourself? It doesn't mean sacrifice in

1546
01:18:29.880 --> 01:18:33.159
<v Speaker 2>the wilderness. It means whom God aids or helped by God.

1547
01:18:34.279 --> 01:18:37.159
<v Speaker 3>As I thought, like, it's probably like azerial or some

1548
01:18:37.319 --> 01:18:40.439
<v Speaker 3>shit like oh like yeah, like that angel or something

1549
01:18:40.439 --> 01:18:41.000
<v Speaker 3>from Dogma.

1550
01:18:41.199 --> 01:18:45.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. No. So basically you have one group of cops

1551
01:18:45.760 --> 01:18:48.520
<v Speaker 2>who think that dingoes are super cool and can't carry

1552
01:18:48.520 --> 01:18:50.399
<v Speaker 2>buckets of stand in their mouth or whatever. And then

1553
01:18:50.399 --> 01:18:53.399
<v Speaker 2>this other cop who you can see where this is going.

1554
01:18:53.439 --> 01:18:56.399
<v Speaker 2>It becomes almost a satanic panic kind of thing. He

1555
01:18:56.520 --> 01:18:58.640
<v Speaker 2>starts sniffing around this thing that looks vague.

1556
01:18:58.640 --> 01:19:01.439
<v Speaker 3>All satanic panic, by the way, every one of these

1557
01:19:01.479 --> 01:19:06.199
<v Speaker 3>has felt like a moral panic, Like every one of

1558
01:19:06.199 --> 01:19:09.119
<v Speaker 3>these have had something that says this person is not

1559
01:19:09.239 --> 01:19:12.920
<v Speaker 3>of moral fortitude, whether it's like Amanda Knox is a

1560
01:19:13.560 --> 01:19:18.000
<v Speaker 3>slut or fucking right, like, each person has had something

1561
01:19:18.760 --> 01:19:22.399
<v Speaker 3>that had to do with their own view of what

1562
01:19:22.800 --> 01:19:27.760
<v Speaker 3>of morality. Yeah, that let them put all ten toes

1563
01:19:27.800 --> 01:19:29.399
<v Speaker 3>in the ground that you're not going to change my

1564
01:19:29.439 --> 01:19:29.840
<v Speaker 3>mind on this.

1565
01:19:29.960 --> 01:19:32.079
<v Speaker 2>Well, and that's part of where here it's like we got.

1566
01:19:31.920 --> 01:19:34.439
<v Speaker 3>This devil baby and a lady who's a demon.

1567
01:19:34.640 --> 01:19:37.840
<v Speaker 2>That's part of where the Seventh day Adventist thing starts

1568
01:19:37.880 --> 01:19:40.319
<v Speaker 2>to become important. Because I don't really know much about

1569
01:19:40.319 --> 01:19:44.039
<v Speaker 2>Seventh day Adventists, but I do know from researching this

1570
01:19:44.119 --> 01:19:46.680
<v Speaker 2>case that at the time there were less than forty

1571
01:19:46.720 --> 01:19:49.880
<v Speaker 2>thousand Seventh Day Adventists in Australia, and so it was

1572
01:19:49.960 --> 01:19:53.520
<v Speaker 2>considered this sort of like suspicious religion. No one really

1573
01:19:53.560 --> 01:19:56.479
<v Speaker 2>knew what to make of it, and so the newspaper

1574
01:19:56.520 --> 01:19:58.840
<v Speaker 2>stories that grew out of a lot of these cop

1575
01:19:58.920 --> 01:20:02.920
<v Speaker 2>rumors were nuts. Like obviously there was there were headlines

1576
01:20:02.960 --> 01:20:05.119
<v Speaker 2>that the Chamberlains might have killed their baby as some

1577
01:20:05.239 --> 01:20:08.279
<v Speaker 2>kind of a ritual sacrifice. The news also.

1578
01:20:08.159 --> 01:20:12.359
<v Speaker 3>Reported they it was that like a fucking cave of

1579
01:20:12.439 --> 01:20:16.000
<v Speaker 3>fortill fertility, cave of fertility nearby. It seems like she

1580
01:20:16.000 --> 01:20:17.760
<v Speaker 3>had three kids. Don't think fertility was the problem.

1581
01:20:18.039 --> 01:20:18.880
<v Speaker 2>I don't think so, But.

1582
01:20:18.840 --> 01:20:20.359
<v Speaker 3>I'm saying, like the fact that it has like a

1583
01:20:20.399 --> 01:20:23.079
<v Speaker 3>weird name like that, for like could play up the sacrifice.

1584
01:20:23.119 --> 01:20:25.119
<v Speaker 2>There were also rumors that got reported on that the

1585
01:20:25.159 --> 01:20:28.319
<v Speaker 2>Chamberlains were linked to the Jonestown, the mass suicide that

1586
01:20:28.359 --> 01:20:31.000
<v Speaker 2>had happened a few years earlier, that somehow the Seventh

1587
01:20:31.079 --> 01:20:33.600
<v Speaker 2>Day Adventists church was involved in that, and that the

1588
01:20:33.920 --> 01:20:37.680
<v Speaker 2>that the Chamberlains were also somehow involved in that Australia.

1589
01:20:37.800 --> 01:20:40.159
<v Speaker 2>No Jonestown was in the Guiana.

1590
01:20:40.199 --> 01:20:42.399
<v Speaker 3>But I think I'm saying, like that's not even Oh,

1591
01:20:42.399 --> 01:20:44.119
<v Speaker 3>they were just saying that they might have been perpetrated

1592
01:20:44.119 --> 01:20:46.319
<v Speaker 3>by people of the same religious Yes, they're.

1593
01:20:46.159 --> 01:20:48.279
<v Speaker 2>Trying to make that comparison. Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, got

1594
01:20:48.560 --> 01:20:51.520
<v Speaker 2>And it didn't help that Lindy Chamberlain herself sort of

1595
01:20:51.560 --> 01:20:55.880
<v Speaker 2>like Amanda Knox, was enacting weird. Yeah, she was acting weird.

1596
01:20:55.960 --> 01:20:59.960
<v Speaker 2>She was soft spoken, she didn't cry. She wore black

1597
01:21:00.079 --> 01:21:01.960
<v Speaker 2>to a press conference, and that was, you know, the

1598
01:21:02.000 --> 01:21:02.800
<v Speaker 2>secret all they.

1599
01:21:02.680 --> 01:21:04.439
<v Speaker 3>Had at their house and the baby was dressed in black.

1600
01:21:05.760 --> 01:21:08.520
<v Speaker 2>But also wearing black to me is not that weird,

1601
01:21:08.520 --> 01:21:10.760
<v Speaker 2>but people saw it as like a satanic.

1602
01:21:10.319 --> 01:21:12.800
<v Speaker 3>I'm just saying that, Like it's come up twice pre

1603
01:21:12.960 --> 01:21:15.720
<v Speaker 3>and post baby disappearance. I'm just saying that maybe black

1604
01:21:15.800 --> 01:21:17.640
<v Speaker 3>was on sale that year and they bought a bunch.

1605
01:21:17.840 --> 01:21:21.640
<v Speaker 2>She also said some admittedly weird things, like when they

1606
01:21:21.840 --> 01:21:22.720
<v Speaker 2>the cops asked.

1607
01:21:22.560 --> 01:21:24.079
<v Speaker 3>She's like, I didn't even like my baby, but I

1608
01:21:24.079 --> 01:21:25.840
<v Speaker 3>didn't want to see it dragged away by a dingo.

1609
01:21:26.439 --> 01:21:29.239
<v Speaker 2>The cops asked if she would go under hypnosis, stop it.

1610
01:21:29.359 --> 01:21:31.800
<v Speaker 3>You can't with this. That's such satanic, banic shit.

1611
01:21:31.720 --> 01:21:35.039
<v Speaker 2>It is. Her reply was, the church wouldn't allow it,

1612
01:21:35.079 --> 01:21:38.359
<v Speaker 2>and I wouldn't do it. God slew Saul for that.

1613
01:21:38.720 --> 01:21:42.600
<v Speaker 2>Do you know Saul and the Witch of Endoor? In

1614
01:21:42.600 --> 01:21:45.479
<v Speaker 2>this case, Endoor is not a Star Wars reference. Okay,

1615
01:21:45.600 --> 01:21:48.279
<v Speaker 2>it was a place in the Bible, So sure is

1616
01:21:48.279 --> 01:21:50.880
<v Speaker 2>where you got it. That's probably where you got it. Yeah.

1617
01:21:50.920 --> 01:21:52.960
<v Speaker 2>So no, the cops didn't know Saul and the Witch

1618
01:21:52.960 --> 01:21:55.680
<v Speaker 2>of Endor, but it sounded real spooky. Yeah, yeah.

1619
01:21:55.760 --> 01:21:55.920
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

1620
01:21:56.359 --> 01:22:00.479
<v Speaker 2>Anyway, all of these suspicions pressured the magistrate and coroner,

1621
01:22:00.640 --> 01:22:03.199
<v Speaker 2>this guy Dennis Barrett, to conduct what were.

1622
01:22:03.079 --> 01:22:05.800
<v Speaker 3>They had the body of the baby? No, okay, so

1623
01:22:05.840 --> 01:22:08.880
<v Speaker 3>what's the corner doing? What the fuck this person's task?

1624
01:22:09.000 --> 01:22:14.039
<v Speaker 2>Then they he was leading the inquest into the death

1625
01:22:14.760 --> 01:22:17.279
<v Speaker 2>because they had some of the baby's clothes that were

1626
01:22:17.359 --> 01:22:22.920
<v Speaker 2>ripped and torn. Okay, his black hood, Yeah yeah, they had.

1627
01:22:22.279 --> 01:22:26.600
<v Speaker 2>At his conclusion that he announced in front of television

1628
01:22:26.680 --> 01:22:30.199
<v Speaker 2>cameras was that Azaria quote met her death when attacked

1629
01:22:30.239 --> 01:22:33.119
<v Speaker 2>by a wild dingo whilst asleep in her family's tent.

1630
01:22:33.880 --> 01:22:37.359
<v Speaker 2>Neither of the parents were in any degree whatsoever responsible

1631
01:22:37.359 --> 01:22:40.479
<v Speaker 2>for her death, but there were a number of oddities

1632
01:22:40.600 --> 01:22:44.359
<v Speaker 2>concerning Azaria's clothing that convinced Barrett that quote, the body

1633
01:22:44.399 --> 01:22:46.800
<v Speaker 2>of Azaria was taken from the possession of the dingo

1634
01:22:46.880 --> 01:22:50.199
<v Speaker 2>and disposed of by an unknown method by a person

1635
01:22:50.319 --> 01:22:52.000
<v Speaker 2>or person's name unknown.

1636
01:22:52.520 --> 01:22:55.479
<v Speaker 3>You're saying that the baby was for sure taken by

1637
01:22:55.479 --> 01:22:58.119
<v Speaker 3>a dog, but then someone found the baby and dumped

1638
01:22:58.119 --> 01:23:00.720
<v Speaker 3>it somewhere else something like that, then put a bunch

1639
01:23:00.760 --> 01:23:03.000
<v Speaker 3>of dingo bites in the clothes to say. So, this

1640
01:23:03.039 --> 01:23:04.880
<v Speaker 3>person is saying there was like a weird cover up,

1641
01:23:05.000 --> 01:23:08.039
<v Speaker 3>like like, yes, her her story is true, but it

1642
01:23:08.079 --> 01:23:09.000
<v Speaker 3>doesn't end there.

1643
01:23:09.199 --> 01:23:12.159
<v Speaker 2>And I think I think my interpretation of this is

1644
01:23:12.199 --> 01:23:15.800
<v Speaker 2>that Dennis Barrett at this point was under a good

1645
01:23:15.840 --> 01:23:18.840
<v Speaker 2>deal of political pressure and was trying to find a

1646
01:23:18.840 --> 01:23:21.920
<v Speaker 2>way saw the news finish. The circital is just like, yeah,

1647
01:23:21.920 --> 01:23:24.800
<v Speaker 2>they're innocent, but I don't know. Someone buried the baby

1648
01:23:24.840 --> 01:23:27.840
<v Speaker 2>and something happened and whatever, let's just move on. But

1649
01:23:28.279 --> 01:23:31.199
<v Speaker 2>that would only lead to further questions. Dennis only led

1650
01:23:31.239 --> 01:23:34.840
<v Speaker 2>to further questions, so that question of who these person

1651
01:23:34.960 --> 01:23:37.800
<v Speaker 2>or person's unknown might have been fanned the flames, and

1652
01:23:38.159 --> 01:23:42.479
<v Speaker 2>after finding what they called quote copious amounts of blood

1653
01:23:43.000 --> 01:23:46.119
<v Speaker 2>in the Chamberlain's car, the state ended up charging Lindy

1654
01:23:46.159 --> 01:23:49.319
<v Speaker 2>with murder and charging her husband, Michael as an accessory

1655
01:23:49.439 --> 01:23:51.800
<v Speaker 2>after the fact. This is where I'm going to cut

1656
01:23:51.840 --> 01:23:56.800
<v Speaker 2>through a whole bunch of crazy case building. Basically, their

1657
01:23:56.880 --> 01:23:59.920
<v Speaker 2>theory was that Lindy slit her daughter's throat with nails's

1658
01:24:00.680 --> 01:24:03.439
<v Speaker 2>in the front seat of the car, a theory which

1659
01:24:03.520 --> 01:24:06.039
<v Speaker 2>was roundly rejected by many of the witnesses who were

1660
01:24:06.079 --> 01:24:08.279
<v Speaker 2>at the camp that night, and some of whom again

1661
01:24:08.680 --> 01:24:13.199
<v Speaker 2>saw the dingo. The prosecution could also never really put

1662
01:24:13.279 --> 01:24:16.520
<v Speaker 2>forth a motive again for why Lindy would do Why

1663
01:24:16.560 --> 01:24:17.239
<v Speaker 2>would you do it in a car?

1664
01:24:17.279 --> 01:24:18.720
<v Speaker 3>Whether it be blood everywhere, some.

1665
01:24:18.680 --> 01:24:22.880
<v Speaker 2>Vague gestures that sacrifices and satanism, But they did manage.

1666
01:24:23.199 --> 01:24:25.600
<v Speaker 3>They always say, you know, if you're gonna sacrifice your baby,

1667
01:24:25.600 --> 01:24:28.560
<v Speaker 3>make sure it's in a Chevy or why again, like

1668
01:24:28.600 --> 01:24:31.399
<v Speaker 3>the car, there's like nothing even there's no pomp and

1669
01:24:31.439 --> 01:24:34.520
<v Speaker 3>circumstance that you think of a sacrifice would require. Yeah,

1670
01:24:34.600 --> 01:24:35.840
<v Speaker 3>just in a passenger seat.

1671
01:24:36.039 --> 01:24:41.000
<v Speaker 2>They did manage to construct a wildly convoluted forensic case

1672
01:24:41.560 --> 01:24:46.680
<v Speaker 2>that essentially boiled down to two things. One is that

1673
01:24:46.800 --> 01:24:50.159
<v Speaker 2>most of his area's clothes had been found except for

1674
01:24:50.199 --> 01:24:53.439
<v Speaker 2>a white jacket that they insisted could only have been

1675
01:24:53.479 --> 01:24:57.239
<v Speaker 2>removed by a human That doesn't that to me seems

1676
01:24:57.279 --> 01:25:00.039
<v Speaker 2>even because there's no bite marks. Well, because they we

1677
01:25:00.079 --> 01:25:02.680
<v Speaker 2>couldn't find this white jacket and so part At one

1678
01:25:02.680 --> 01:25:04.800
<v Speaker 2>point the theory was that the white jacket must have

1679
01:25:04.880 --> 01:25:07.000
<v Speaker 2>been used to like clean up the crime scene and

1680
01:25:07.000 --> 01:25:08.920
<v Speaker 2>it had blood on it and then it was disposed of.

1681
01:25:09.079 --> 01:25:11.359
<v Speaker 3>In this family's fashion history, there's no way they even

1682
01:25:11.399 --> 01:25:12.159
<v Speaker 3>owned a white jacket.

1683
01:25:12.680 --> 01:25:15.159
<v Speaker 2>Well, it was on the baby when she disappeared and

1684
01:25:15.199 --> 01:25:17.800
<v Speaker 2>they never found it. So basically the prosecution was like,

1685
01:25:17.840 --> 01:25:19.920
<v Speaker 2>we couldn't find it. We found everything else, Like.

1686
01:25:20.159 --> 01:25:21.800
<v Speaker 3>They don't have little shovels, there's no way they can

1687
01:25:21.840 --> 01:25:24.479
<v Speaker 3>bury it. Yes, they absolutely can, because dog's bury bones.

1688
01:25:24.600 --> 01:25:29.760
<v Speaker 2>Yes. Yes. And two the prosecution had this big claim

1689
01:25:29.800 --> 01:25:32.840
<v Speaker 2>that they found all this fetal blood they called it

1690
01:25:32.960 --> 01:25:36.439
<v Speaker 2>just sprayed everywhere under the dashboard of the car. This

1691
01:25:36.600 --> 01:25:40.640
<v Speaker 2>argument worked in October twenty. On October twenty ninth, nineteen

1692
01:25:40.680 --> 01:25:43.560
<v Speaker 2>eighty two, Lindy was convicted of murder and sentenced to

1693
01:25:43.640 --> 01:25:46.600
<v Speaker 2>life with hard labor. She was pregnant at the time

1694
01:25:46.920 --> 01:25:50.239
<v Speaker 2>and the fertility cave WO worked. Yeah, so there was

1695
01:25:50.279 --> 01:25:53.840
<v Speaker 2>some magic in this shit. She actually gave birth to

1696
01:25:53.880 --> 01:25:58.640
<v Speaker 2>her fourth child behind bars. Her husband Michael received a

1697
01:25:58.680 --> 01:26:03.039
<v Speaker 2>suspended sentence as an accessory to murder. Public sentiment turned

1698
01:26:03.520 --> 01:26:05.640
<v Speaker 2>over the course of this case. I don't know what

1699
01:26:05.680 --> 01:26:08.079
<v Speaker 2>the fuck was up with Australia, but by the time

1700
01:26:08.159 --> 01:26:11.319
<v Speaker 2>this one was convicted, I'm Halloween almost people were literally

1701
01:26:11.359 --> 01:26:15.399
<v Speaker 2>like applauding the state, the state people in bars. It

1702
01:26:15.439 --> 01:26:17.039
<v Speaker 2>was like people were glued to their TVs.

1703
01:26:17.119 --> 01:26:21.119
<v Speaker 3>I mean she there is an interview with her on

1704
01:26:21.319 --> 01:26:24.479
<v Speaker 3>the news that that quote comes from the dingo eate

1705
01:26:24.520 --> 01:26:27.439
<v Speaker 3>the baby, Yeah, like the exasperated. I don't remember how

1706
01:26:27.439 --> 01:26:29.239
<v Speaker 3>it's using Seinfeld now because it's been while sin i've

1707
01:26:29.239 --> 01:26:33.199
<v Speaker 3>seen that episode, but I think the dingo ate my

1708
01:26:33.239 --> 01:26:36.760
<v Speaker 3>baby is the like exasperated, like no one's listening to me,

1709
01:26:36.960 --> 01:26:37.960
<v Speaker 3>the dingo.

1710
01:26:37.760 --> 01:26:38.399
<v Speaker 2>Ate my baby.

1711
01:26:38.479 --> 01:26:41.640
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, And I think that that became the cultural meme

1712
01:26:42.119 --> 01:26:44.560
<v Speaker 3>at the time. I do not know why they would

1713
01:26:44.640 --> 01:26:48.479
<v Speaker 3>vilify this woman other than I think there's like Commonwealth

1714
01:26:48.520 --> 01:26:52.760
<v Speaker 3>countries don't they have like that tall poppy syndrome bullshit, right,

1715
01:26:52.840 --> 01:26:56.840
<v Speaker 3>like where they don't like anyone who's too rich or

1716
01:26:56.840 --> 01:26:59.640
<v Speaker 3>too popular or too like what in America we look

1717
01:26:59.720 --> 01:27:02.000
<v Speaker 3>up to that where other countries they want to cut

1718
01:27:02.000 --> 01:27:04.159
<v Speaker 3>it down. Yeah, And so maybe it was just like,

1719
01:27:04.239 --> 01:27:05.800
<v Speaker 3>get this lady off the fucking news.

1720
01:27:05.840 --> 01:27:08.720
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. They really didn't like her. Someone even

1721
01:27:08.760 --> 01:27:11.880
<v Speaker 2>invented a card game called dingo Ate the Baby, which

1722
01:27:11.960 --> 01:27:14.880
<v Speaker 2>I found is still for sale on the Upper Deck

1723
01:27:15.199 --> 01:27:18.279
<v Speaker 2>Cards website. Huh. If you want to know the description,

1724
01:27:18.560 --> 01:27:21.319
<v Speaker 2>it's this. Dingo Ate the Baby is a fast paced

1725
01:27:21.399 --> 01:27:24.000
<v Speaker 2>game for two to five players, lasting twenty to thirty minutes.

1726
01:27:24.159 --> 01:27:26.439
<v Speaker 2>The goal each day is to collect enough cards within

1727
01:27:26.479 --> 01:27:28.680
<v Speaker 2>your ranch in an attempt to reach the total value

1728
01:27:28.720 --> 01:27:31.680
<v Speaker 2>needed for that day without going over. This seems simple enough,

1729
01:27:31.720 --> 01:27:35.359
<v Speaker 2>but other players will attempt to sabotage your ranch, using animals, babies,

1730
01:27:35.399 --> 01:27:39.119
<v Speaker 2>sunlight and darkness to scare, chase, overpopulate, and even eat

1731
01:27:39.199 --> 01:27:43.560
<v Speaker 2>things within your ranch. Bullet point designed by industry legend

1732
01:27:43.720 --> 01:27:46.960
<v Speaker 2>Mike Elliott, dingo Ate the Baby is a brilliant variation

1733
01:27:47.119 --> 01:27:51.720
<v Speaker 2>on Rock, Paper Scissors, babies scaring elephants, elephants stomping lions,

1734
01:27:51.920 --> 01:27:55.960
<v Speaker 2>lions eating dingos, and of course Dingo's eating babies. Stop

1735
01:27:56.000 --> 01:27:58.039
<v Speaker 2>it is. You can go buy this right now.

1736
01:27:58.199 --> 01:27:59.960
<v Speaker 3>We don't have it. We have to donate the money

1737
01:28:00.199 --> 01:28:03.800
<v Speaker 3>to the Yeah sorry, sorry Innocents project. We had to

1738
01:28:03.840 --> 01:28:07.000
<v Speaker 3>buy Dingo the baby with that same money.

1739
01:28:07.199 --> 01:28:08.960
<v Speaker 2>Part of the reason that this was also fresh in

1740
01:28:09.000 --> 01:28:11.199
<v Speaker 2>the minds of people in the early nineties is that

1741
01:28:11.239 --> 01:28:15.239
<v Speaker 2>in nineteen eighty six, and here's the good news, a tourist, well,

1742
01:28:15.720 --> 01:28:18.439
<v Speaker 2>this isn't the good news. A tourist named David Brett

1743
01:28:18.479 --> 01:28:21.680
<v Speaker 2>fell to his death while climbing a luru. But while

1744
01:28:21.720 --> 01:28:26.319
<v Speaker 2>police were searching the scrub below a luru, looking, ironically enough,

1745
01:28:26.439 --> 01:28:29.279
<v Speaker 2>for bones of his that dingoes might have dragged away,

1746
01:28:29.800 --> 01:28:33.680
<v Speaker 2>because that's what dingoes do. White jacket, they found a

1747
01:28:33.760 --> 01:28:37.239
<v Speaker 2>tiny blood stained jacket near a dingo layer. It was azarias,

1748
01:28:37.359 --> 01:28:40.399
<v Speaker 2>the exact piece of clothing. The prosecution said could never

1749
01:28:40.439 --> 01:28:43.239
<v Speaker 2>have been removed by an animal, but it was real,

1750
01:28:43.399 --> 01:28:45.159
<v Speaker 2>and it had been removed, and it was sitting in

1751
01:28:45.199 --> 01:28:49.039
<v Speaker 2>front of the dingo layer for years. And all that

1752
01:28:49.079 --> 01:28:52.359
<v Speaker 2>baby blood that the cops found in the feet, it

1753
01:28:52.479 --> 01:28:55.760
<v Speaker 2>was not from a baby and it was not even blood.

1754
01:28:56.000 --> 01:28:59.520
<v Speaker 2>It was paint emulsion. The tests that had been conducted

1755
01:28:59.680 --> 01:29:03.439
<v Speaker 2>on this substance, we're just incredibly poorly done.

1756
01:29:03.520 --> 01:29:06.479
<v Speaker 3>I'm sorry, did DuPont fill your baby with We have

1757
01:29:06.520 --> 01:29:08.760
<v Speaker 3>to ask everybody, did your baby have DuPont in it?

1758
01:29:08.960 --> 01:29:12.720
<v Speaker 2>And yeah, So between those two pieces of information, which

1759
01:29:12.760 --> 01:29:14.960
<v Speaker 2>the baby blood thing. Wait, so this was eighty she

1760
01:29:15.039 --> 01:29:18.680
<v Speaker 2>got this was eighty six. No, No, she was convicted

1761
01:29:18.680 --> 01:29:21.359
<v Speaker 2>in eighty She was convicted in eighty two. Okay, so

1762
01:29:21.399 --> 01:29:25.479
<v Speaker 2>she's four years yeah, four years breaking rocks. Yep. But

1763
01:29:25.560 --> 01:29:29.640
<v Speaker 2>then she was out within five days, I would fucking hope.

1764
01:29:29.680 --> 01:29:33.399
<v Speaker 2>So her convictions were quashed in nineteen eighty eight. Thank god.

1765
01:29:33.479 --> 01:29:36.479
<v Speaker 3>By the way, anyone could have been like, this is

1766
01:29:36.479 --> 01:29:38.880
<v Speaker 3>a this is such an embarrassment for us just to

1767
01:29:38.880 --> 01:29:41.680
<v Speaker 3>get rid of the jacket, like oh yeah, someone actually

1768
01:29:41.760 --> 01:29:43.960
<v Speaker 3>was like, hey, we found the jacket. Yeah, and not

1769
01:29:44.520 --> 01:29:48.000
<v Speaker 3>you know, the thin blue line of it all or

1770
01:29:48.039 --> 01:29:50.119
<v Speaker 3>something where it's gonna be like just fucking get.

1771
01:29:50.079 --> 01:29:50.359
<v Speaker 2>Rid of it.

1772
01:29:50.399 --> 01:29:52.199
<v Speaker 3>We didn't, you know, we don't want to look like idiots.

1773
01:29:52.479 --> 01:29:56.720
<v Speaker 2>She was given uh one point three million dollars in compensation.

1774
01:29:56.880 --> 01:29:59.039
<v Speaker 3>Oh man, it sucks to be in Australia and America.

1775
01:29:59.039 --> 01:30:00.840
<v Speaker 3>That would be like two hundred million dollars.

1776
01:30:01.000 --> 01:30:03.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well in nineteen ninety two, that was It's true,

1777
01:30:03.960 --> 01:30:04.520
<v Speaker 2>we didn't have.

1778
01:30:04.600 --> 01:30:07.840
<v Speaker 3>Like billionaires until like a day ago we did, But

1779
01:30:07.880 --> 01:30:10.279
<v Speaker 3>I mean it's not You watch a movie from just

1780
01:30:10.319 --> 01:30:12.279
<v Speaker 3>ten years ago and like the highest.

1781
01:30:12.159 --> 01:30:14.319
<v Speaker 2>Every super duper rich character.

1782
01:30:14.079 --> 01:30:15.680
<v Speaker 3>In it was worth like one hundred million dollars.

1783
01:30:15.840 --> 01:30:18.079
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's still so she got paid. But it took

1784
01:30:18.159 --> 01:30:22.159
<v Speaker 2>until twenty twelve, thirty two years for a final inquest

1785
01:30:22.199 --> 01:30:25.920
<v Speaker 2>to finally issue a corrected death certificate saying that a

1786
01:30:26.039 --> 01:30:31.720
<v Speaker 2>dingo killed Azaria m So it was a long road

1787
01:30:31.840 --> 01:30:35.920
<v Speaker 2>to justice. And I had to talk about this case

1788
01:30:36.000 --> 01:30:40.640
<v Speaker 2>because even though it's a crazy fucking thing, uh, and

1789
01:30:40.680 --> 01:30:43.000
<v Speaker 2>it's not the true nightmare of just someone being like,

1790
01:30:43.239 --> 01:30:45.479
<v Speaker 2>you know, I think this person killed their kid or whatever.

1791
01:30:46.159 --> 01:30:48.319
<v Speaker 2>It's basically what happened. They were just like And the

1792
01:30:48.359 --> 01:30:51.239
<v Speaker 2>fact that the fact that the first inquest was like, yeah,

1793
01:30:51.279 --> 01:30:53.359
<v Speaker 2>didn't go eat the baby. Everybody saw the didn't go

1794
01:30:53.359 --> 01:30:55.520
<v Speaker 2>eat the baby. There's footprints of the dingo where it

1795
01:30:55.680 --> 01:30:57.800
<v Speaker 2>ate the baby, Like, didn't go eat the baby. And

1796
01:30:57.840 --> 01:31:00.359
<v Speaker 2>then some fucking idiot was like.

1797
01:31:00.159 --> 01:31:02.199
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, you had that idiot cop. And then you had

1798
01:31:03.119 --> 01:31:08.880
<v Speaker 3>just a bumbling attorney type person who, for whatever reason,

1799
01:31:08.960 --> 01:31:12.680
<v Speaker 3>under political pressure, said something extra stupid, added that extra

1800
01:31:12.720 --> 01:31:14.159
<v Speaker 3>step that was gonna be unnecessary.

1801
01:31:14.159 --> 01:31:17.079
<v Speaker 2>And that's where I could feel like my stomach I

1802
01:31:17.079 --> 01:31:19.359
<v Speaker 2>can put myself in those shoes and feel my stomach

1803
01:31:19.399 --> 01:31:20.279
<v Speaker 2>sinking of like.

1804
01:31:20.319 --> 01:31:23.439
<v Speaker 3>That's because you don't walk through life every single day.

1805
01:31:24.119 --> 01:31:26.760
<v Speaker 3>We should be, but we don't walk through life every

1806
01:31:26.800 --> 01:31:29.880
<v Speaker 3>single day being like, oh, how much of my life

1807
01:31:29.960 --> 01:31:33.640
<v Speaker 3>can be ruined because other people are fucking idiots, Like

1808
01:31:33.840 --> 01:31:36.920
<v Speaker 3>just truly human error, and like it took me a

1809
01:31:36.960 --> 01:31:39.359
<v Speaker 3>long time to realize, Like I'm not the smartest person

1810
01:31:39.399 --> 01:31:42.680
<v Speaker 3>by a fucking stretch, but like I meet people every

1811
01:31:42.760 --> 01:31:46.319
<v Speaker 3>single day where I'm like, are you actively reminding yourself

1812
01:31:46.319 --> 01:31:48.520
<v Speaker 3>to breathe with each breath?

1813
01:31:48.800 --> 01:31:51.720
<v Speaker 2>Like there are fucking people I meet where I'm like, Jesus, Chris, well,

1814
01:31:51.720 --> 01:31:54.600
<v Speaker 2>how do you? How do you get through the day's part?

1815
01:31:54.680 --> 01:31:57.319
<v Speaker 3>And that's when I realized, like kids, most adults are

1816
01:31:57.319 --> 01:32:00.000
<v Speaker 3>fucking idiots, So don't do anything adults.

1817
01:32:00.640 --> 01:32:03.039
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean it's or your boss, your job. I've

1818
01:32:03.079 --> 01:32:05.039
<v Speaker 2>worked people, I've worked for people who were dumb.

1819
01:32:05.119 --> 01:32:05.359
<v Speaker 3>Shit.

1820
01:32:05.760 --> 01:32:08.800
<v Speaker 2>The fact that these people that we look to is

1821
01:32:08.840 --> 01:32:11.960
<v Speaker 2>like being the arbiters of justice are clearly so motivated

1822
01:32:12.000 --> 01:32:15.920
<v Speaker 2>by their own impulses and instincts and just drive forward

1823
01:32:15.960 --> 01:32:18.560
<v Speaker 2>on this stuff that if you're Lindy Chamberlain, you're sitting

1824
01:32:18.560 --> 01:32:21.359
<v Speaker 2>there going what the fuck did I do to God

1825
01:32:21.479 --> 01:32:24.520
<v Speaker 2>or the universe that like every you know, every time

1826
01:32:24.560 --> 01:32:26.720
<v Speaker 2>one of these motherfuckers opens their mouth, you're like, that's

1827
01:32:26.760 --> 01:32:28.560
<v Speaker 2>not it's just not what happened, and they're like, yeah

1828
01:32:28.560 --> 01:32:30.720
<v Speaker 2>it did. The state says it did, and that's what's

1829
01:32:30.760 --> 01:32:31.399
<v Speaker 2>gonna happen. Now.

1830
01:32:31.439 --> 01:32:33.279
<v Speaker 3>Did you ever see the net Central blocks?

1831
01:32:33.279 --> 01:32:36.000
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, oh yeah? To me is a top fear.

1832
01:32:36.279 --> 01:32:39.199
<v Speaker 2>It might be as scared all the time watch along.

1833
01:32:39.239 --> 01:32:41.640
<v Speaker 3>At some point it's a it's a ridiculous film that

1834
01:32:41.760 --> 01:32:43.720
<v Speaker 3>only the beginning where she goes to pizza dot net

1835
01:32:43.800 --> 01:32:47.000
<v Speaker 3>to order a pizza. Oh yeah, uh wild first shot too,

1836
01:32:47.119 --> 01:32:51.520
<v Speaker 3>like from like satellite shop. But anyway, the hey I'm

1837
01:32:51.560 --> 01:32:54.079
<v Speaker 3>a person and they're like, actually I just a race

1838
01:32:54.119 --> 01:32:58.319
<v Speaker 3>that you ever existed, Yeah, is fucking terrifying. But it

1839
01:32:58.399 --> 01:33:01.239
<v Speaker 3>also must feel a little bit like that same feeling

1840
01:33:01.319 --> 01:33:04.760
<v Speaker 3>must go into I must be crazy because everyone is

1841
01:33:04.760 --> 01:33:06.560
<v Speaker 3>saying I did this, or everyone is and I'm not.

1842
01:33:07.720 --> 01:33:10.319
<v Speaker 3>Must be the same level of Sandra Bullock being like,

1843
01:33:10.479 --> 01:33:12.880
<v Speaker 3>I've lived at one two three Bana Street my entire life,

1844
01:33:12.920 --> 01:33:14.560
<v Speaker 3>this is my shial security number and this is that

1845
01:33:14.600 --> 01:33:16.760
<v Speaker 3>and then pulling up the computer to be like, ma'am,

1846
01:33:17.399 --> 01:33:21.880
<v Speaker 3>you didn't. But also you're wanted by the FBI for

1847
01:33:22.159 --> 01:33:24.880
<v Speaker 3>a bunch of heinous crimes. We're arresting you. And it

1848
01:33:24.960 --> 01:33:27.319
<v Speaker 3>was like, no, just someone changed the computer thing.

1849
01:33:27.399 --> 01:33:29.880
<v Speaker 2>I did none of those things, but like that to

1850
01:33:29.960 --> 01:33:32.359
<v Speaker 2>me is so so scary. Yeah. Well in nineteen ninety

1851
01:33:32.359 --> 01:33:33.920
<v Speaker 2>five when that movie came out and you thought that

1852
01:33:33.920 --> 01:33:41.520
<v Speaker 2>could actually happen, and people were like, fuck, all right,

1853
01:33:41.520 --> 01:33:43.880
<v Speaker 2>we're gonna wrap things up with the case that I

1854
01:33:44.000 --> 01:33:48.399
<v Speaker 2>find the most disturbing because it doesn't have anything to

1855
01:33:48.439 --> 01:33:49.439
<v Speaker 2>do with the.

1856
01:33:49.439 --> 01:33:52.239
<v Speaker 3>Fruit flying here. It's fucking bothering me. I find that disturbing.

1857
01:33:57.079 --> 01:33:59.960
<v Speaker 2>It doesn't have anything to do with the media dog

1858
01:34:00.079 --> 01:34:03.680
<v Speaker 2>piling on an innocent person. It wasn't an ancient accounting error,

1859
01:34:03.720 --> 01:34:07.800
<v Speaker 2>it wasn't confused cops bubbling around the outback. It's probably

1860
01:34:07.840 --> 01:34:10.760
<v Speaker 2>the least likely to happen in a this could happen

1861
01:34:10.800 --> 01:34:13.840
<v Speaker 2>to U way, but it is the most fucked up

1862
01:34:13.920 --> 01:34:18.000
<v Speaker 2>in a I can't believe this actually happened way. So

1863
01:34:18.399 --> 01:34:23.000
<v Speaker 2>this takes us back to notting Hill in nineteen forty nine.

1864
01:34:23.199 --> 01:34:25.920
<v Speaker 2>So not the Hugh Grant version of notting Hill. This

1865
01:34:26.039 --> 01:34:30.520
<v Speaker 2>was more rotting Hill. Npteen nine, nineteen forty nine, England,

1866
01:34:30.680 --> 01:34:34.920
<v Speaker 2>England bombed out England. Timothy Evans was a twenty four

1867
01:34:34.960 --> 01:34:37.920
<v Speaker 2>year old Welsh truck driver who couldn't read or write,

1868
01:34:38.359 --> 01:34:42.079
<v Speaker 2>living in the top floor apartment at ten Rillington Place

1869
01:34:42.239 --> 01:34:46.439
<v Speaker 2>in notting Hill. One description I read of ten Rillington

1870
01:34:46.520 --> 01:34:50.560
<v Speaker 2>Place in notting Hill in nineteen forty nine describes it

1871
01:34:50.680 --> 01:34:54.359
<v Speaker 2>as such quote. Each unit consisted of only two rooms

1872
01:34:54.840 --> 01:34:59.680
<v Speaker 2>and shared interior stairways and hallways. There was no indoor plumbing.

1873
01:35:00.239 --> 01:35:04.800
<v Speaker 2>All residents shared a wash house in the small, unruly backyard,

1874
01:35:05.279 --> 01:35:08.279
<v Speaker 2>which contained a sink and copper for heating water, with

1875
01:35:08.359 --> 01:35:12.159
<v Speaker 2>an outdoor toilet beside it. The flats were illuminated by

1876
01:35:12.279 --> 01:35:16.760
<v Speaker 2>coal gas fed into the units by jets in the wall. Okay,

1877
01:35:16.920 --> 01:35:19.159
<v Speaker 2>two things. All of this was written in the ad.

1878
01:35:19.279 --> 01:35:22.479
<v Speaker 3>Unfortunately you could not read how bad the situation was

1879
01:35:22.479 --> 01:35:24.039
<v Speaker 3>when he agreed to move in here.

1880
01:35:24.119 --> 01:35:27.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, yeah, two, it's me losing for apartments.

1881
01:35:27.560 --> 01:35:30.600
<v Speaker 3>Jets in the walls man. That Just like I told you,

1882
01:35:30.680 --> 01:35:33.279
<v Speaker 3>I was watching a silent film, yeah, like nineteen twelve

1883
01:35:33.399 --> 01:35:36.279
<v Speaker 3>or something where they had a gas heater that had

1884
01:35:36.319 --> 01:35:39.199
<v Speaker 3>like a hose coming out of the wall that you

1885
01:35:39.239 --> 01:35:43.239
<v Speaker 3>can swap the hose out for other types of accessories

1886
01:35:43.239 --> 01:35:47.199
<v Speaker 3>like other appliances could also use that gas hose, and

1887
01:35:47.239 --> 01:35:47.600
<v Speaker 3>it was.

1888
01:35:47.560 --> 01:35:49.960
<v Speaker 2>Just like, what a different time. Yeah, but this was

1889
01:35:50.319 --> 01:35:53.119
<v Speaker 2>forty years after that, almost, so you think they'd be

1890
01:35:53.119 --> 01:35:57.520
<v Speaker 2>beyond that. No. This was a bleak, post war working

1891
01:35:57.520 --> 01:36:00.840
<v Speaker 2>class neighborhood. And Timothy Evans was a bleak post war

1892
01:36:00.920 --> 01:36:04.520
<v Speaker 2>working class guy. He had a learning disability, a bit

1893
01:36:04.560 --> 01:36:06.960
<v Speaker 2>of a drinking problem, which today I imagine we would

1894
01:36:06.960 --> 01:36:10.520
<v Speaker 2>probably call a severe drinking problem yea, and he constantly

1895
01:36:10.560 --> 01:36:13.720
<v Speaker 2>fought with his wife, Beryl over their lack of money.

1896
01:36:14.159 --> 01:36:16.600
<v Speaker 2>They had a one year old daughter named Geraldine, and

1897
01:36:16.640 --> 01:36:21.319
<v Speaker 2>Beryl was pregnant with their second child. Their neighbor downstairs

1898
01:36:21.439 --> 01:36:25.319
<v Speaker 2>was a quiet, balding, soft spoken man named John Reginald

1899
01:36:25.399 --> 01:36:28.840
<v Speaker 2>Holliday Christie. What's his hair situation have to do with anything?

1900
01:36:29.199 --> 01:36:32.399
<v Speaker 2>He was his post office clerk and a former wartime

1901
01:36:32.479 --> 01:36:36.239
<v Speaker 2>special constable. He'd been in some minor legal trouble decades

1902
01:36:36.279 --> 01:36:39.399
<v Speaker 2>earlier for theft and assault, but he went by Reg and,

1903
01:36:39.479 --> 01:36:42.039
<v Speaker 2>like most guys who go by Reg, seemed pretty cool

1904
01:36:43.359 --> 01:36:47.319
<v Speaker 2>in reality. Though Reg Christie was a serial killer. He'd

1905
01:36:47.319 --> 01:36:51.000
<v Speaker 2>already murdered and buried two women. Ruth first, I'll.

1906
01:36:50.880 --> 01:36:52.760
<v Speaker 3>Tell you right now if you're I don't know where

1907
01:36:52.760 --> 01:36:56.520
<v Speaker 3>he's killing him, but if you're dragon bodies places, it's

1908
01:36:56.520 --> 01:36:58.199
<v Speaker 3>best to not be on the top floor.

1909
01:36:58.560 --> 01:37:00.920
<v Speaker 2>So the first floor for Reg makes sense. First, love

1910
01:37:00.960 --> 01:37:05.880
<v Speaker 2>of Rege makes sense. His first two murders, Ruth first, prostitutes, right,

1911
01:37:06.399 --> 01:37:10.560
<v Speaker 2>I don't know if they were prostitutes, but Ruth first. Actually,

1912
01:37:10.640 --> 01:37:13.760
<v Speaker 2>her last name is f U E Rst. I don't

1913
01:37:13.760 --> 01:37:16.560
<v Speaker 2>know if that's pronounced first, but she was first. And

1914
01:37:16.840 --> 01:37:20.760
<v Speaker 2>Muriel Edie in the garden at ten Rillington Place. And

1915
01:37:20.840 --> 01:37:24.239
<v Speaker 2>he'd done this during the Blitz, which I'm sure was

1916
01:37:24.279 --> 01:37:27.800
<v Speaker 2>an incredible time to be an active serial killer. Sure,

1917
01:37:28.600 --> 01:37:30.600
<v Speaker 2>if you're not familiar with the Blitz, the Germans bombed

1918
01:37:30.640 --> 01:37:32.760
<v Speaker 2>London for like sixty days in a row, so you

1919
01:37:32.800 --> 01:37:37.000
<v Speaker 2>could probably get away with pretty much anything you fucking wanted. Yeah,

1920
01:37:37.039 --> 01:37:41.039
<v Speaker 2>people were otherwise occupied. Yeah, Anyway, the Evans, Timothy and

1921
01:37:41.119 --> 01:37:45.680
<v Speaker 2>Beryl had no idea about Reg and his proclivities.

1922
01:37:45.760 --> 01:37:47.359
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, they usually don't tell people, no.

1923
01:37:47.840 --> 01:37:50.920
<v Speaker 2>And when Beryl found out she was pregnant again with

1924
01:37:50.960 --> 01:37:52.279
<v Speaker 2>this second child.

1925
01:37:52.359 --> 01:37:55.000
<v Speaker 3>When they don't have any money and they're climbing up

1926
01:37:55.000 --> 01:37:56.800
<v Speaker 3>and down eighteen flights of stairs.

1927
01:37:56.479 --> 01:37:59.960
<v Speaker 2>They were desperate for help. Abortion was illegal in the US,

1928
01:38:01.119 --> 01:38:04.159
<v Speaker 2>but good old Rege was ever the helpful neighbor, and

1929
01:38:04.199 --> 01:38:07.000
<v Speaker 2>he claimed that he'd had some medical training from the

1930
01:38:07.039 --> 01:38:10.119
<v Speaker 2>Great War World War One, which he was a veteran of,

1931
01:38:10.640 --> 01:38:14.239
<v Speaker 2>and offered to perform a discreet abortion procedure on Beryl,

1932
01:38:14.399 --> 01:38:16.840
<v Speaker 2>and they agreed to let him help. On November eighth,

1933
01:38:17.159 --> 01:38:20.279
<v Speaker 2>Timothy Evans came home to find Christy waiting on the

1934
01:38:20.319 --> 01:38:23.319
<v Speaker 2>stairs of the apartment with a horrific story. The procedure

1935
01:38:23.640 --> 01:38:27.800
<v Speaker 2>had failed and Beryl was dead. He took Timothy upstairs.

1936
01:38:27.920 --> 01:38:31.920
<v Speaker 2>Christy is Reg. Yes, sorry, yeah, Reg Christy. Timothy came

1937
01:38:31.960 --> 01:38:34.239
<v Speaker 2>home to find Reg Christy waiting on the stairs with

1938
01:38:34.279 --> 01:38:38.159
<v Speaker 2>a horrific story. The procedure had failed and Beryl was dead.

1939
01:38:38.520 --> 01:38:41.600
<v Speaker 2>Rege took Timothy upstairs and showed him Beryl's body on

1940
01:38:41.680 --> 01:38:45.119
<v Speaker 2>the bed. Geraldine was still in a crib nearby, alive,

1941
01:38:45.800 --> 01:38:49.520
<v Speaker 2>and Reg told Timothy that he needed to run because

1942
01:38:49.520 --> 01:38:52.279
<v Speaker 2>if anyone ever found out that this abortion had happened

1943
01:38:52.640 --> 01:38:55.800
<v Speaker 2>and that Beryl had died, they would both rot in prison.

1944
01:38:55.960 --> 01:38:58.800
<v Speaker 2>So we're gonna you and I are on the run.

1945
01:38:58.920 --> 01:39:03.159
<v Speaker 2>Unlikely partnership. No, Timothy, You're on the run. And Reg

1946
01:39:03.239 --> 01:39:05.880
<v Speaker 2>told him I'll take care of everything. You get out

1947
01:39:05.920 --> 01:39:08.960
<v Speaker 2>of town for a while. Okay, So what he meant was,

1948
01:39:09.000 --> 01:39:11.760
<v Speaker 2>you know, I'll bury the body, you get out of

1949
01:39:11.760 --> 01:39:17.359
<v Speaker 2>town whatever. Okay, So Timothy left Geraldine behind because Reg

1950
01:39:17.479 --> 01:39:19.720
<v Speaker 2>said that he would. I forget exactly who he said

1951
01:39:19.760 --> 01:39:21.159
<v Speaker 2>he was going to give him to, but there was

1952
01:39:21.199 --> 01:39:23.760
<v Speaker 2>a plan for Geraldine. He left Geraldine behind and ran

1953
01:39:23.920 --> 01:39:27.640
<v Speaker 2>to stay with relatives in Wales. After a couple of

1954
01:39:27.680 --> 01:39:31.880
<v Speaker 2>weeks of being in Wales, Timothy's guilty conscience, I guess,

1955
01:39:31.920 --> 01:39:35.000
<v Speaker 2>got to him. He walked into a police station in

1956
01:39:35.039 --> 01:39:38.680
<v Speaker 2>Wales and blurted out, I have disposed of my wife.

1957
01:39:39.760 --> 01:39:43.159
<v Speaker 2>When the detective incredulously asked what he meant, Timothy replied,

1958
01:39:43.239 --> 01:39:44.600
<v Speaker 2>I have put her down the drain.

1959
01:39:45.000 --> 01:39:47.319
<v Speaker 3>Okay, there's a cop working there, being like, you can't

1960
01:39:47.359 --> 01:39:48.640
<v Speaker 3>put a person down the drain.

1961
01:39:48.920 --> 01:39:51.479
<v Speaker 2>Well by draine, did he meant like a sewer drain,

1962
01:39:51.600 --> 01:39:52.399
<v Speaker 2>not like the sink.

1963
01:39:52.560 --> 01:39:54.600
<v Speaker 3>I don't know, but I don't know how incredulous the

1964
01:39:55.239 --> 01:39:57.479
<v Speaker 3>cops there were, just like in Australia, this is the

1965
01:39:57.520 --> 01:39:58.479
<v Speaker 3>same Commonwealth.

1966
01:39:58.840 --> 01:40:00.239
<v Speaker 2>That's true. That's true, which is.

1967
01:40:00.239 --> 01:40:01.720
<v Speaker 3>A guy who's like, tell that guy to get out

1968
01:40:01.720 --> 01:40:03.640
<v Speaker 3>of here, I've you can't. I have a I have

1969
01:40:03.680 --> 01:40:04.520
<v Speaker 3>a sack of pennies.

1970
01:40:04.560 --> 01:40:05.039
<v Speaker 2>I'll show you.

1971
01:40:05.039 --> 01:40:07.479
<v Speaker 3>It's a shape of a woman. Yeah, we can't get

1972
01:40:07.520 --> 01:40:08.359
<v Speaker 3>this down the drade.

1973
01:40:09.399 --> 01:40:12.439
<v Speaker 2>Well, Timothy told the police which Draine, he put her down,

1974
01:40:12.640 --> 01:40:15.800
<v Speaker 2>and they went to go recover her body, but didn't

1975
01:40:15.840 --> 01:40:20.039
<v Speaker 2>find anything. No rats touck her. Clearly Timothy wasn't telling

1976
01:40:20.039 --> 01:40:23.399
<v Speaker 2>the truth. Again, he was not. He was had he

1977
01:40:23.439 --> 01:40:27.760
<v Speaker 2>had a learning disability, he was not fully functioning guy.

1978
01:40:28.960 --> 01:40:31.279
<v Speaker 2>I kind of imagine him almost like that guy from

1979
01:40:31.319 --> 01:40:33.640
<v Speaker 2>Making a Murderer, the nephew.

1980
01:40:33.880 --> 01:40:35.840
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I don't know, the guy who was actually arrested.

1981
01:40:35.920 --> 01:40:39.359
<v Speaker 2>The guy. The guy who was actually arrested the nephew

1982
01:40:39.399 --> 01:40:41.760
<v Speaker 2>had a tough go of it too. Yeah, and in

1983
01:40:41.880 --> 01:40:46.159
<v Speaker 2>something Massy Yeah yeah, Brandon Massey. So anyway, clearly Timothy

1984
01:40:46.199 --> 01:40:48.399
<v Speaker 2>wasn't telling the truth about what happened to his wife

1985
01:40:48.439 --> 01:40:49.680
<v Speaker 2>or where she was not.

1986
01:40:49.800 --> 01:40:52.039
<v Speaker 3>Clearly he just didn't know. But to the cops, they're like,

1987
01:40:52.079 --> 01:40:53.159
<v Speaker 3>this guy's wasting her time.

1988
01:40:53.439 --> 01:40:55.520
<v Speaker 2>Well, the cops, the cops were like, why did you

1989
01:40:55.520 --> 01:40:57.560
<v Speaker 2>come into the police station and say you've disposed of

1990
01:40:57.600 --> 01:40:59.359
<v Speaker 2>your wife and told us to go look at Draine

1991
01:40:59.359 --> 01:41:01.960
<v Speaker 2>where she is what's going on? Where's your wife? And

1992
01:41:02.000 --> 01:41:05.159
<v Speaker 2>at that point he said, well, this is what actually happened,

1993
01:41:05.199 --> 01:41:08.079
<v Speaker 2>and he gave up Bredge. He gave up redg Regg

1994
01:41:08.159 --> 01:41:10.920
<v Speaker 2>did you a favor? Well, Rege was about to undo

1995
01:41:11.000 --> 01:41:13.760
<v Speaker 2>that favor real quick because when the police searched ten

1996
01:41:13.840 --> 01:41:17.399
<v Speaker 2>Rillington place, they found the bodies of Beryl and Geraldine

1997
01:41:17.520 --> 01:41:19.840
<v Speaker 2>hidden in the back wash house. Both of them had

1998
01:41:19.880 --> 01:41:23.439
<v Speaker 2>been strangled. Jeraldine's the baby, Geraldine's the baby and so.

1999
01:41:23.640 --> 01:41:26.960
<v Speaker 3>But also this guy, he's not maybe bright enough to

2000
01:41:26.960 --> 01:41:30.199
<v Speaker 3>have realized that the abortion procedure does not include like

2001
01:41:30.199 --> 01:41:32.439
<v Speaker 3>bruising around the neck and stuff. He wouldn't have noticed.

2002
01:41:32.640 --> 01:41:36.960
<v Speaker 2>I don't think he noticed exactly. No, what the investigators

2003
01:41:37.039 --> 01:41:40.640
<v Speaker 2>managed to somehow completely missed was a human thigh bone

2004
01:41:40.840 --> 01:41:43.680
<v Speaker 2>that reg Christie was using to hold up his garden

2005
01:41:43.720 --> 01:41:47.319
<v Speaker 2>fence and something like ed gean shit right there. And

2006
01:41:47.359 --> 01:41:50.000
<v Speaker 2>they didn't put two and two together about the fact

2007
01:41:50.039 --> 01:41:54.159
<v Speaker 2>that local kids a few months I believe it was earlier,

2008
01:41:54.840 --> 01:41:58.119
<v Speaker 2>had found a human skull in a nearby lot and

2009
01:41:58.199 --> 01:42:01.000
<v Speaker 2>turned it into the police. And that skull belonged to

2010
01:42:01.119 --> 01:42:03.760
<v Speaker 2>Muriel Eddie, who was one of his first victims.

2011
01:42:04.439 --> 01:42:07.800
<v Speaker 3>Extra surprising to me is no one was like, Hey,

2012
01:42:08.680 --> 01:42:10.439
<v Speaker 3>our apartment building stinks.

2013
01:42:10.840 --> 01:42:13.760
<v Speaker 2>Oh fucking stinks. There's a dead baby and woman who

2014
01:42:13.840 --> 01:42:16.439
<v Speaker 2>had been on the first floor for a while. That's

2015
01:42:16.479 --> 01:42:20.359
<v Speaker 2>how bad in a non ac rotting hill smell rotting

2016
01:42:20.479 --> 01:42:24.840
<v Speaker 2>hills dud. So the cops didn't piece any of that together,

2017
01:42:24.960 --> 01:42:28.399
<v Speaker 2>but they did focus on Timothy, who was illiterate, terrified,

2018
01:42:28.560 --> 01:42:33.039
<v Speaker 2>and gave multiple wandering confessions that all conflicted with each other.

2019
01:42:33.399 --> 01:42:36.760
<v Speaker 2>He eventually signed a confession that historians now believe was

2020
01:42:36.960 --> 01:42:39.680
<v Speaker 2>manufactured by the police. Yeah, you know, don't ever sign it.

2021
01:42:39.680 --> 01:42:40.199
<v Speaker 3>That's the thing.

2022
01:42:40.359 --> 01:42:43.079
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's the real problem there. But he retracted everything

2023
01:42:43.119 --> 01:42:46.680
<v Speaker 2>before trial and pointed the finger exactly where it belonged

2024
01:42:47.239 --> 01:42:49.560
<v Speaker 2>at reg said, this guy did it. The last time

2025
01:42:49.560 --> 01:42:53.239
<v Speaker 2>I saw my daughter alive was with him. But bah bah.

2026
01:42:53.399 --> 01:42:56.800
<v Speaker 2>The trial opened in January nineteen fifty and the article

2027
01:42:56.800 --> 01:42:59.760
<v Speaker 2>that I read said under British law at the time,

2028
01:42:59.840 --> 01:43:03.680
<v Speaker 2>Timothy was only charged with the murder of Geraldine, which

2029
01:43:03.720 --> 01:43:06.880
<v Speaker 2>seems odd, But I don't know. Britain in the fifties,

2030
01:43:07.199 --> 01:43:09.000
<v Speaker 2>maybe it was legal to kill your wife.

2031
01:43:09.119 --> 01:43:11.960
<v Speaker 3>I think it might have been. But also it might

2032
01:43:11.960 --> 01:43:15.399
<v Speaker 3>have something to do with like well, she died doing

2033
01:43:15.439 --> 01:43:19.479
<v Speaker 3>something that was illegal, so maybe in the gates her existence,

2034
01:43:19.720 --> 01:43:21.760
<v Speaker 3>I don't know, you know what I mean, It wasn't like, listen,

2035
01:43:21.840 --> 01:43:26.479
<v Speaker 3>this friendly neighbor tried to will add a abortion to

2036
01:43:26.640 --> 01:43:31.199
<v Speaker 3>his crimes, right, and like a botched abortion is not

2037
01:43:31.279 --> 01:43:33.640
<v Speaker 3>the same as killing a woman. Apparently I could see

2038
01:43:33.680 --> 01:43:35.760
<v Speaker 3>that being a thing in the eyes.

2039
01:43:35.439 --> 01:43:38.960
<v Speaker 2>Of the law, right Weirdly, Yeah, According to a legal

2040
01:43:39.039 --> 01:43:41.880
<v Speaker 2>article I found online, quote Timothy took the stand in

2041
01:43:41.960 --> 01:43:46.399
<v Speaker 2>his own defense and was the only witness called by

2042
01:43:46.800 --> 01:43:50.520
<v Speaker 2>the defense. He denied killing Beryl and Geraldine, and further

2043
01:43:50.560 --> 01:43:53.000
<v Speaker 2>testified that he only became aware of his daughter's death

2044
01:43:53.039 --> 01:43:55.319
<v Speaker 2>when he was told about it by the police, which

2045
01:43:55.319 --> 01:43:57.359
<v Speaker 2>he also said is part of why he confessed, because

2046
01:43:57.399 --> 01:43:59.359
<v Speaker 2>once he found out his daughter was dead, he didn't

2047
01:43:59.399 --> 01:44:03.439
<v Speaker 2>care about anything anymore and just confessed. He was not

2048
01:44:03.680 --> 01:44:08.119
<v Speaker 2>great on the stand the normally aren't. And yeah, and

2049
01:44:08.159 --> 01:44:10.399
<v Speaker 2>he was not a guy primed to do well on

2050
01:44:10.439 --> 01:44:13.239
<v Speaker 2>the stand, and things would get so much worse for

2051
01:44:13.319 --> 01:44:18.119
<v Speaker 2>him when the prosecution called their star witness, reg Christie.

2052
01:44:18.920 --> 01:44:20.000
<v Speaker 2>Are we even allowed?

2053
01:44:20.239 --> 01:44:21.960
<v Speaker 3>I mean, I guess, right, But like it just seems

2054
01:44:22.000 --> 01:44:24.840
<v Speaker 3>like if it's the defendant and the plaintiff are the witnesses.

2055
01:44:25.159 --> 01:44:27.279
<v Speaker 3>I know, you put your hand up and you say,

2056
01:44:27.279 --> 01:44:29.520
<v Speaker 3>I'm gonna tell the truth. I don't know how often

2057
01:44:29.560 --> 01:44:33.239
<v Speaker 3>people when they get in that stand actually do, and like,

2058
01:44:33.520 --> 01:44:35.000
<v Speaker 3>at the end of the day, you can still lie.

2059
01:44:35.439 --> 01:44:36.640
<v Speaker 2>I just don't know why we would.

2060
01:44:37.000 --> 01:44:39.199
<v Speaker 3>It just seems weird that if your only witnesses are

2061
01:44:39.279 --> 01:44:41.760
<v Speaker 3>the two people whose names are on the fucking document.

2062
01:44:41.920 --> 01:44:44.319
<v Speaker 2>I mean, reg was a World War One vet, he

2063
01:44:44.439 --> 01:44:47.359
<v Speaker 2>was professional older, he was an ex cop. He was

2064
01:44:47.680 --> 01:44:50.199
<v Speaker 2>considered very respectable. I don't know why he was living

2065
01:44:50.199 --> 01:44:51.960
<v Speaker 2>in this slum that apparently there.

2066
01:44:51.840 --> 01:44:54.720
<v Speaker 3>Because twenty years earlier he was convicted of a bunch

2067
01:44:54.720 --> 01:44:55.760
<v Speaker 3>of shit, remember.

2068
01:44:55.560 --> 01:44:58.800
<v Speaker 2>Well right, but that was before he went to war. Anyway,

2069
01:44:58.920 --> 01:45:03.159
<v Speaker 2>the cops in this case trusted this guy. They put

2070
01:45:03.199 --> 01:45:06.199
<v Speaker 2>him on the stand, and you know it's his word

2071
01:45:06.279 --> 01:45:10.600
<v Speaker 2>against There are rotting corpses in his apartment.

2072
01:45:10.720 --> 01:45:13.760
<v Speaker 3>I think you lost the opportunity to be an upstanding citizen,

2073
01:45:13.920 --> 01:45:15.840
<v Speaker 3>even if you just said you found them there.

2074
01:45:15.920 --> 01:45:18.439
<v Speaker 2>Well, they weren't in his apartment. They were in the

2075
01:45:18.479 --> 01:45:22.039
<v Speaker 2>back so like the yard, Yeah, they were like in

2076
01:45:22.119 --> 01:45:24.359
<v Speaker 2>the shed in the back is where he put the bodies.

2077
01:45:24.399 --> 01:45:27.520
<v Speaker 2>Does he have access to the shed probably there you go.

2078
01:45:28.159 --> 01:45:29.560
<v Speaker 3>Don't believe it? Where'd you fucking say?

2079
01:45:29.560 --> 01:45:33.039
<v Speaker 2>Now? It took the jury thirty five minutes to decide

2080
01:45:33.159 --> 01:45:37.439
<v Speaker 2>that Timothy Evans deserved the death sentence. He was executed

2081
01:45:37.479 --> 01:45:40.600
<v Speaker 2>at Pentonville Prison on March ninth, nineteen fifty at twenty

2082
01:45:40.600 --> 01:45:44.439
<v Speaker 2>five years old, and died swearing he was innocent. Meanwhile,

2083
01:45:44.680 --> 01:45:47.840
<v Speaker 2>reg Christie went right back to ten Rillington Place and

2084
01:45:47.920 --> 01:45:51.680
<v Speaker 2>turned it into a slaughterhouse. By nineteen fifty two, he'd

2085
01:45:51.680 --> 01:45:55.359
<v Speaker 2>strangled his own wife, Ethel and hid her under the floorboards.

2086
01:45:55.359 --> 01:45:57.319
<v Speaker 3>And now it's like doublin demnity shit or whatever. They're

2087
01:45:57.319 --> 01:45:59.840
<v Speaker 3>not double demiti now it's like double Jeopardy shit where

2088
01:45:59.840 --> 01:46:02.600
<v Speaker 3>it's like no, because he wasn't the one convicted of.

2089
01:46:03.159 --> 01:46:06.760
<v Speaker 2>Well, right, he was also only accused of murdering well

2090
01:46:06.800 --> 01:46:08.640
<v Speaker 2>he wasn't. Yeah, he wasn't huge.

2091
01:46:08.760 --> 01:46:11.000
<v Speaker 3>So if he had gotten off for the crime, then

2092
01:46:11.000 --> 01:46:12.560
<v Speaker 3>he can do it with a community or whatever.

2093
01:46:12.640 --> 01:46:16.159
<v Speaker 2>But over the next few months he murdered three more women,

2094
01:46:16.399 --> 01:46:21.000
<v Speaker 2>Kathleen Maloney, Rita Nelson and Hectorina McLennon by gassing them.

2095
01:46:21.119 --> 01:46:24.039
<v Speaker 2>I assume with the jets in the apartment. Oh yeah,

2096
01:46:24.079 --> 01:46:27.560
<v Speaker 2>maybe and stuffing their bodies into a kitchen alcove that

2097
01:46:27.600 --> 01:46:31.960
<v Speaker 2>he wallpapered over. In March nineteen fifty three, he moved out,

2098
01:46:32.239 --> 01:46:36.359
<v Speaker 2>didn't take the bodies with him. I A rat dies

2099
01:46:36.399 --> 01:46:37.119
<v Speaker 2>in your wall.

2100
01:46:37.279 --> 01:46:39.359
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and it's a fucking problem.

2101
01:46:39.399 --> 01:46:41.159
<v Speaker 2>I'm telling you. This is how bad I think this

2102
01:46:41.199 --> 01:46:45.319
<v Speaker 2>area probably I think, yeah, just industrial. Yeah, he moved out,

2103
01:46:45.439 --> 01:46:47.600
<v Speaker 2>didn't take the bodies with him, and the new tenant

2104
01:46:47.680 --> 01:46:50.680
<v Speaker 2>decided to peel back the wallpaper and he found the

2105
01:46:50.680 --> 01:46:53.399
<v Speaker 2>three women's bodies. There's an alcove back here, Yeah, he

2106
01:46:53.479 --> 01:46:54.439
<v Speaker 2>found the three boys.

2107
01:46:54.520 --> 01:46:56.319
<v Speaker 3>Told there's place at nelcove.

2108
01:46:56.520 --> 01:47:00.600
<v Speaker 2>In this hidden alcove. Christy was caught and confessed to everything,

2109
01:47:00.680 --> 01:47:05.720
<v Speaker 2>including Beryl Evans's murder, although he never admitted to killing Geraldine.

2110
01:47:05.880 --> 01:47:09.640
<v Speaker 2>And he was hanged on July fifteenth, nineteen fifty three.

2111
01:47:09.720 --> 01:47:12.439
<v Speaker 2>So this guy got a quick trial. He moved out

2112
01:47:12.479 --> 01:47:16.279
<v Speaker 2>in March nineteen fifty three and was hanged on July fifteenth.

2113
01:47:16.399 --> 01:47:20.439
<v Speaker 3>And what sounds like our boy, the Welsh Welsh dude

2114
01:47:20.439 --> 01:47:24.079
<v Speaker 3>also got a quick trial. Unfortunately, this seems like these people.

2115
01:47:24.439 --> 01:47:26.760
<v Speaker 3>There was no sleep for the hangman in this now,

2116
01:47:27.199 --> 01:47:31.560
<v Speaker 3>no no no, But also nineteen fifty we hang in people.

2117
01:47:31.520 --> 01:47:34.680
<v Speaker 2>Yep, in nineteen fifty fifty something fifty three.

2118
01:47:34.760 --> 01:47:36.000
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, like we're weird.

2119
01:47:36.199 --> 01:47:39.119
<v Speaker 2>The space race is happening. True, that's fifty fifty seven,

2120
01:47:39.920 --> 01:47:45.159
<v Speaker 2>but it seems seems late. Yeah, let's see when was

2121
01:47:45.399 --> 01:47:49.880
<v Speaker 2>the last person hanged. The last judicial hanging in the

2122
01:47:50.000 --> 01:47:54.000
<v Speaker 2>United States took place on January twenty fifth, nineteen ninety six.

2123
01:47:54.159 --> 01:47:56.840
<v Speaker 2>Something tells me it's not New England in Delaware. That's

2124
01:47:56.880 --> 01:48:02.319
<v Speaker 2>close though, Yeah, Delaware. Yeah, being the smallest state wasn't

2125
01:48:02.479 --> 01:48:06.479
<v Speaker 2>enough for you. You had to have another thing. Well,

2126
01:48:06.840 --> 01:48:12.000
<v Speaker 2>reg Christie had eight things, eight kills to his name,

2127
01:48:12.159 --> 01:48:15.840
<v Speaker 2>including Ethel, Beryl and Geraldine. And then four of these

2128
01:48:15.880 --> 01:48:19.720
<v Speaker 2>other murders only happened because Timothy Evans had already been

2129
01:48:20.359 --> 01:48:22.840
<v Speaker 2>killed for the crime that he didn't commit, and everybody

2130
01:48:22.840 --> 01:48:25.840
<v Speaker 2>assumed open and shutcase. Some of they should add Timothy

2131
01:48:25.920 --> 01:48:28.239
<v Speaker 2>to his kill list. True, Yeah, I mean it is

2132
01:48:28.319 --> 01:48:30.800
<v Speaker 2>literally like a serial killer. That's why this case is

2133
01:48:30.840 --> 01:48:35.239
<v Speaker 2>so insane to me. A serial killer got a man

2134
01:48:35.640 --> 01:48:38.439
<v Speaker 2>in a big man, Yeah, an innocent man convicted for

2135
01:48:38.520 --> 01:48:41.439
<v Speaker 2>crimes that he committed and got away with it. And

2136
01:48:41.479 --> 01:48:44.159
<v Speaker 2>so I think you should add Timothy to his body count. Yeah,

2137
01:48:44.760 --> 01:48:48.279
<v Speaker 2>I agree. The Evans case eventually became a cornerstone of

2138
01:48:48.319 --> 01:48:50.800
<v Speaker 2>the movement to end the death penalty in Britain, and

2139
01:48:50.880 --> 01:48:54.479
<v Speaker 2>alongside a bunch of other cases, it served as strong

2140
01:48:54.560 --> 01:48:58.840
<v Speaker 2>proof of why an irreversible punishment like the death penalty

2141
01:48:59.279 --> 01:49:02.880
<v Speaker 2>is a disaster are when you allow it to be

2142
01:49:03.079 --> 01:49:05.279
<v Speaker 2>part of a system. They got to be open shut,

2143
01:49:06.560 --> 01:49:09.079
<v Speaker 2>got to be open shut. The UK suspended the death

2144
01:49:09.119 --> 01:49:12.800
<v Speaker 2>penalty in nineteen sixty five, abolished it in nineteen sixty nine,

2145
01:49:13.039 --> 01:49:16.119
<v Speaker 2>and Timothy Evans was granted a royal pardon in nineteen

2146
01:49:16.319 --> 01:49:19.319
<v Speaker 2>sixty six. Didn't help him, No, couple of years too

2147
01:49:19.399 --> 01:49:22.800
<v Speaker 2>late to help Timothy Evans, and also didn't leave anyone behind.

2148
01:49:22.840 --> 01:49:25.840
<v Speaker 2>The whole family was obliterated, so the bloodline ends there.

2149
01:49:26.000 --> 01:49:29.359
<v Speaker 2>So who is this for? Yeah? Like what a grand

2150
01:49:29.560 --> 01:49:30.039
<v Speaker 2>child was?

2151
01:49:30.079 --> 01:49:31.560
<v Speaker 3>Like my grandfather's finally exonerated.

2152
01:49:31.520 --> 01:49:33.399
<v Speaker 2>I guess it was sort of the state, like just

2153
01:49:33.479 --> 01:49:39.079
<v Speaker 2>performative right by him. Performative, performative bullshit. Yeah, but we've

2154
01:49:39.079 --> 01:49:41.439
<v Speaker 2>been performing for a long time here on this episode,

2155
01:49:41.560 --> 01:49:44.640
<v Speaker 2>I think it's about time we hit the fear tier. Ed,

2156
01:49:45.039 --> 01:49:48.720
<v Speaker 2>where do you place being falsely accused on your fear tier?

2157
01:49:48.880 --> 01:49:51.840
<v Speaker 3>Unlike you which is to say that I've definitely did something.

2158
01:49:51.920 --> 01:49:56.199
<v Speaker 3>Now I dream about it every fucking night. I still

2159
01:49:56.239 --> 01:49:58.039
<v Speaker 3>I guess you have to place it it like at

2160
01:49:58.079 --> 01:50:02.079
<v Speaker 3>eight minimum, yeah, because you're only not falsely accused until

2161
01:50:02.079 --> 01:50:02.359
<v Speaker 3>you are.

2162
01:50:02.600 --> 01:50:05.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. And so it's like I don't even think that

2163
01:50:05.760 --> 01:50:06.560
<v Speaker 2>I can do anything.

2164
01:50:06.600 --> 01:50:08.279
<v Speaker 3>I don't even know if I can live my life

2165
01:50:08.640 --> 01:50:11.359
<v Speaker 3>in such a way where I can avoid it. Like

2166
01:50:11.399 --> 01:50:13.920
<v Speaker 3>what the fuck was a friend of a friend just

2167
01:50:14.159 --> 01:50:18.560
<v Speaker 3>recently on Instagram had posted a story of like or

2168
01:50:18.720 --> 01:50:21.319
<v Speaker 3>they were on a podcast or something talking about how

2169
01:50:21.680 --> 01:50:25.239
<v Speaker 3>the cafe they write at and work at all the time,

2170
01:50:25.359 --> 01:50:29.279
<v Speaker 3>like all the time, they're always in there, DM them

2171
01:50:29.319 --> 01:50:32.439
<v Speaker 3>on Instagram to accuse them of stealing a book from

2172
01:50:32.439 --> 01:50:35.800
<v Speaker 3>their like little library thing they have in the cafe.

2173
01:50:35.960 --> 01:50:39.159
<v Speaker 2>Holy shit, And he was like, yeah, I didn't steal

2174
01:50:39.199 --> 01:50:41.920
<v Speaker 2>the book, and they were like, don't come back.

2175
01:50:42.039 --> 01:50:44.479
<v Speaker 3>But then eventually was like, well someone who works here

2176
01:50:44.600 --> 01:50:46.760
<v Speaker 3>said they saw you leave, and then.

2177
01:50:47.319 --> 01:50:49.479
<v Speaker 2>It was a cookbook or something something like like not

2178
01:50:49.560 --> 01:50:50.520
<v Speaker 2>even the life. It was like.

2179
01:50:50.479 --> 01:50:54.760
<v Speaker 3>A price of property to the to the cafe. And

2180
01:50:54.880 --> 01:50:57.000
<v Speaker 3>he was like, well I didn't or whatever, And then

2181
01:50:57.039 --> 01:51:02.640
<v Speaker 3>I guess later the another person from that account, the

2182
01:51:02.680 --> 01:51:05.600
<v Speaker 3>official like cafe account DMed them to be like, hey,

2183
01:51:05.640 --> 01:51:07.680
<v Speaker 3>we looked at the security footage, and I think what

2184
01:51:07.840 --> 01:51:11.720
<v Speaker 3>happened was the guy who took the book. You were

2185
01:51:11.800 --> 01:51:14.920
<v Speaker 3>walking by them at the exact moment they took the book,

2186
01:51:15.520 --> 01:51:18.680
<v Speaker 3>and so it's literally is a little bit of a

2187
01:51:18.720 --> 01:51:21.159
<v Speaker 3>bigger gentleman, and so it's like he may have like

2188
01:51:21.159 --> 01:51:24.319
<v Speaker 3>it fully eclipsed that person, so the book went missing.

2189
01:51:24.359 --> 01:51:26.680
<v Speaker 3>They looked up, they didn't see that person. They just

2190
01:51:26.720 --> 01:51:29.479
<v Speaker 3>saw you leaving, the dingling of the bell, and now

2191
01:51:29.479 --> 01:51:31.600
<v Speaker 3>you're getting DMS being like, give us back our book.

2192
01:51:31.640 --> 01:51:34.640
<v Speaker 2>Then this is not death penalty, but this is.

2193
01:51:34.600 --> 01:51:37.239
<v Speaker 3>Certainly a person who was just living in their life

2194
01:51:37.479 --> 01:51:40.039
<v Speaker 3>and all of a sudden, even if it's as minor

2195
01:51:40.079 --> 01:51:42.920
<v Speaker 3>as an insanely small as this, it's just like, hey,

2196
01:51:42.960 --> 01:51:47.880
<v Speaker 3>I'm being accused of stealing, like like finger pointedly, we

2197
01:51:48.039 --> 01:51:51.600
<v Speaker 3>saw there's a person here who saw you leave and

2198
01:51:51.640 --> 01:51:54.079
<v Speaker 3>then look down and the book was gone. And so

2199
01:51:54.199 --> 01:51:55.720
<v Speaker 3>that's why I say it has to be an a

2200
01:51:55.880 --> 01:51:57.920
<v Speaker 3>because this person was just living their life at a

2201
01:51:58.000 --> 01:51:58.800
<v Speaker 3>place that they go.

2202
01:51:58.840 --> 01:52:02.039
<v Speaker 2>To all the time. Yeah, and that's all it takes.

2203
01:52:02.199 --> 01:52:08.479
<v Speaker 2>And if there is a particularly gut feeling type prosecutor.

2204
01:52:07.399 --> 01:52:09.159
<v Speaker 3>And if there was no security camera where they were

2205
01:52:09.199 --> 01:52:10.920
<v Speaker 3>able to see that you walk by at the same moment.

2206
01:52:11.039 --> 01:52:13.359
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it can come from it's just the witness. It

2207
01:52:13.399 --> 01:52:15.239
<v Speaker 2>can come for anybody. A wee we.

2208
01:52:15.479 --> 01:52:17.880
<v Speaker 3>I did some mock trial thing in high school and

2209
01:52:18.000 --> 01:52:20.560
<v Speaker 3>there was they did something where like they had someone

2210
01:52:20.600 --> 01:52:23.079
<v Speaker 3>come into the room and like tell us something. We

2211
01:52:23.119 --> 01:52:25.079
<v Speaker 3>didn't know this person. It was just like, hey, we've

2212
01:52:25.079 --> 01:52:27.560
<v Speaker 3>an announcement, and then they left or whatever, and then

2213
01:52:27.600 --> 01:52:29.720
<v Speaker 3>like fifteen minutes later they were like, hey, what color

2214
01:52:29.800 --> 01:52:32.439
<v Speaker 3>shirt was that guy wearing and hot whatever? And then

2215
01:52:32.479 --> 01:52:35.479
<v Speaker 3>like half the fucking class got it wrong. Half the

2216
01:52:35.520 --> 01:52:38.520
<v Speaker 3>class fully was under the impression he had glasses. Yeah,

2217
01:52:38.760 --> 01:52:40.079
<v Speaker 3>And then they had the guy come back in.

2218
01:52:40.159 --> 01:52:40.520
<v Speaker 2>We didn't know.

2219
01:52:40.560 --> 01:52:42.439
<v Speaker 3>It was like part of a little trap, right, and

2220
01:52:42.479 --> 01:52:44.840
<v Speaker 3>the guy and it was like, oh, he didn't have glasses.

2221
01:52:44.880 --> 01:52:48.479
<v Speaker 3>It was like a not a purple shirt like the

2222
01:52:48.479 --> 01:52:51.960
<v Speaker 3>things that people remembered. And we were like twenty witnesses

2223
01:52:51.960 --> 01:52:54.600
<v Speaker 3>in the glass at that moment, and it was like, fuck,

2224
01:52:54.680 --> 01:52:57.479
<v Speaker 3>I don't I would never believe a witness testimony, not

2225
01:52:57.520 --> 01:52:58.399
<v Speaker 3>even because they're lying.

2226
01:52:58.479 --> 01:53:00.760
<v Speaker 2>They just misremember. And that's what I'm saying.

2227
01:53:00.800 --> 01:53:03.039
<v Speaker 3>This kid if there wasn't a security camera footage for

2228
01:53:03.119 --> 01:53:05.720
<v Speaker 3>this guy, it's just that witness testimony.

2229
01:53:05.760 --> 01:53:07.199
<v Speaker 2>If I saw him take the book, Well you know

2230
01:53:07.239 --> 01:53:08.960
<v Speaker 2>what that was that they did to you in school?

2231
01:53:09.479 --> 01:53:12.760
<v Speaker 2>The sigh up, the sinister test. Oh shit, senisor test,

2232
01:53:12.920 --> 01:53:15.600
<v Speaker 2>Ladies and gentlemen. We bring it back around for you

2233
01:53:15.640 --> 01:53:17.319
<v Speaker 2>every time. If you're driving, look in the back seats

2234
01:53:17.319 --> 01:53:21.279
<v Speaker 2>your car right now. Boom, Yeah, I put it in eight.

2235
01:53:21.760 --> 01:53:24.560
<v Speaker 2>False accusations are very scary to me. Our system is

2236
01:53:24.640 --> 01:53:27.640
<v Speaker 2>not prepared to deal with them particularly well.

2237
01:53:27.720 --> 01:53:30.800
<v Speaker 3>And by the way, to the point we've been making

2238
01:53:31.479 --> 01:53:34.800
<v Speaker 3>the second story or throw whatever, the ancient story. It

2239
01:53:35.159 --> 01:53:41.319
<v Speaker 3>really false acquisite acquisitions, false acquisitions, but it's called stealing. Yeah,

2240
01:53:41.359 --> 01:53:46.239
<v Speaker 3>false accusations whatever, even easier if you can get two

2241
01:53:46.239 --> 01:53:47.000
<v Speaker 3>friends in on it.

2242
01:53:47.239 --> 01:53:47.439
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

2243
01:53:47.560 --> 01:53:51.239
<v Speaker 3>So it's like three people said you did this when

2244
01:53:51.279 --> 01:53:54.359
<v Speaker 3>you never did. Is even crazier because it's like, well,

2245
01:53:54.399 --> 01:53:56.840
<v Speaker 3>three people said it. So like the guy who said, oh,

2246
01:53:56.840 --> 01:53:58.640
<v Speaker 3>we wanted to kill his dad to take the house,

2247
01:53:58.920 --> 01:53:59.720
<v Speaker 3>there was three.

2248
01:53:59.520 --> 01:54:02.880
<v Speaker 2>People on the other bench, all of them lying. Yeah,

2249
01:54:03.079 --> 01:54:07.279
<v Speaker 2>And good on Cicero for making this get away with it.

2250
01:54:07.359 --> 01:54:08.840
<v Speaker 2>Is a real one, dude.

2251
01:54:08.880 --> 01:54:12.079
<v Speaker 3>Every time that guy comes up in this pod. Who

2252
01:54:12.079 --> 01:54:14.680
<v Speaker 3>knows if anything ancient history is even real, but.

2253
01:54:15.039 --> 01:54:18.319
<v Speaker 2>It's all Harry Potter probably yeah, but he's great.

2254
01:54:18.359 --> 01:54:19.640
<v Speaker 3>But anyway, you were saying, it's an eight.

2255
01:54:19.560 --> 01:54:21.439
<v Speaker 2>For you, it's an eight for me. It's very it's

2256
01:54:21.560 --> 01:54:23.520
<v Speaker 2>very frightening. It can happen to anyone for any reason,

2257
01:54:23.760 --> 01:54:27.279
<v Speaker 2>and I just hope that it never does. So until

2258
01:54:27.319 --> 01:54:31.479
<v Speaker 2>next time, I falsely accuse you of being a terrible host.

2259
01:54:31.720 --> 01:54:32.560
<v Speaker 2>He's pointing at me.

2260
01:54:32.560 --> 01:54:35.000
<v Speaker 3>If you can't if you're watching, he's not saying it

2261
01:54:35.000 --> 01:54:36.159
<v Speaker 3>to the person who's listening.

2262
01:54:36.319 --> 01:54:41.039
<v Speaker 2>Oh, that's true, but you might be a terrible host's eds,

2263
01:54:41.239 --> 01:54:42.880
<v Speaker 2>do you have a false accusation for me?

2264
01:54:44.319 --> 01:54:48.359
<v Speaker 3>No, you're great, Thank you, Ed, And I would never

2265
01:54:48.399 --> 01:54:50.840
<v Speaker 3>accuse you. I would never accuse you more than your

2266
01:54:50.880 --> 01:54:53.840
<v Speaker 3>own mind. Is it sounds like with these dreams.

2267
01:54:53.520 --> 01:54:56.680
<v Speaker 2>I'm tortured enough. Until next time, I'm Chris Calari and

2268
01:54:56.720 --> 01:54:59.760
<v Speaker 2>I'm Edvcola. The show is Scared all the Time. We'll

2269
01:54:59.760 --> 01:55:02.680
<v Speaker 2>talk you soon, Bye bye. Scared All the Time is

2270
01:55:02.720 --> 01:55:04.159
<v Speaker 2>co produced by Chris Calari and.

2271
01:55:04.239 --> 01:55:07.840
<v Speaker 3>Edvacola, written by Chris Calari, edited by Edvacola.

2272
01:55:08.000 --> 01:55:11.399
<v Speaker 2>Additional support and Keeper of Sanity is test fightful. Our

2273
01:55:11.479 --> 01:55:14.920
<v Speaker 2>theme song is the track Scared by Perpetual Stu and

2274
01:55:15.119 --> 01:55:16.600
<v Speaker 2>mister Disclaimer is.

2275
01:55:17.399 --> 01:55:19.399
<v Speaker 3>And just a reminder, you can now support the podcast

2276
01:55:19.439 --> 01:55:21.840
<v Speaker 3>on Patreon. You get all kinds of cool shit in return,

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<v Speaker 3>depending on the tear you choose, we'll be offering everything

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<v Speaker 3>from ad free episodes, producer credits, exclusive access, and exclusive merch.

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<v Speaker 2>So go sign up for a Patreon and Scared All

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<v Speaker 2>the Time podcast dot com don't want to be full

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<v Speaker 2>Steady caps welcoming.

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<v Speaker 1>No part of the show can be reproduced anywhere without

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<v Speaker 1>permission copyright Astonishing Legends Production Night.

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<v Speaker 2>We are in this together, together to Goether