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Start having the 24 00:00:51.399 --> 00:00:54.520 most fun ever at Chumbuck casino dot com. No, We're 25 00:00:54.520 --> 00:00:56.399 not necessary, dally void over if I lost the terms 26 00:00:56.439 --> 00:00:59.240 conditions eighteen plus o Radium. 27 00:01:08.359 --> 00:01:11.799 You are now listening to True Murder, The most Shocking 28 00:01:11.879 --> 00:01:14.920 Killers in True crime History and the authors that have 29 00:01:14.959 --> 00:01:22.239 written about them Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK. Every 30 00:01:22.280 --> 00:01:25.959 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 31 00:01:26.079 --> 00:01:30.599 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 32 00:01:31.000 --> 00:01:33.480 journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 33 00:01:43.799 --> 00:01:46.239 Good Evening. This is the program True Murder, The most 34 00:01:46.280 --> 00:01:48.840 shocking Killers in true crime History and the authors that 35 00:01:48.840 --> 00:01:52.760 have written about them with your host stan Zepansky. The 36 00:01:52.799 --> 00:01:56.359 affluent suburb of Chesshire, Connecticut, seemed like the perfect place 37 00:01:56.400 --> 00:01:59.480 for doctor William Pettitt and his wife, Jennifer Hawk Pettitt, 38 00:01:59.519 --> 00:02:03.120 to raise their two lovely daughters until July twenty third, 39 00:02:03.159 --> 00:02:05.680 two thousand and seven, when, according to the police, two 40 00:02:05.719 --> 00:02:08.639 ex cons invaded the Pettitt home, hoping to embark on 41 00:02:08.680 --> 00:02:13.039 a routine robbery, one that would ultimately prove deadly. One 42 00:02:13.080 --> 00:02:16.599 unfolded at three hundred Sorghum Mill Drive was a tragic 43 00:02:16.639 --> 00:02:19.639 and horrifying sequence of events that shocked the community and 44 00:02:19.680 --> 00:02:23.759 made headlines across the nation. Before the morning was over, 45 00:02:23.879 --> 00:02:26.520 missus Hawk Pettit and one of the daughters would be 46 00:02:26.560 --> 00:02:29.520 sexually assaulted and the entire house would go up in flames, 47 00:02:29.919 --> 00:02:33.360 and only doctor Pettitt, his head bloodied, his legs bound, 48 00:02:33.520 --> 00:02:36.120 would manage to escape with his life with the help 49 00:02:36.120 --> 00:02:39.800 of neighbors and local police. The two success two suspects 50 00:02:39.840 --> 00:02:46.560 were soon found captured. Now Joshua Commisarjeski and Stephen Hayes 51 00:02:46.599 --> 00:02:49.199 away trial for murder. The book this evening that we 52 00:02:49.240 --> 00:02:51.560 are featuring is in the Middle of the Night with 53 00:02:51.639 --> 00:02:55.479 my host, journalist and author Brian McDonald. Thank you for 54 00:02:55.560 --> 00:02:58.800 intervening to this agreeing to this interview, Brian, and welcome 55 00:02:58.840 --> 00:03:00.520 to the programme Brian Donald. 56 00:03:01.240 --> 00:03:02.520 Hey Dan, how are you Tony? 57 00:03:03.520 --> 00:03:05.800 Very well and thank you for agreeing to this interview. 58 00:03:05.960 --> 00:03:08.080 A great book, by the way, no problem. 59 00:03:08.080 --> 00:03:08.439 Thank you. 60 00:03:08.680 --> 00:03:12.759 Now, first off, let me ask the question I usually 61 00:03:12.800 --> 00:03:15.719 asked the guest because I'm always interested in it. Usually 62 00:03:15.719 --> 00:03:20.159 it's to an interesting answer. What made you decide to 63 00:03:20.240 --> 00:03:22.400 write a book about this particular case? 64 00:03:23.400 --> 00:03:26.960 Well, I mean, I mean, first of all, because of 65 00:03:27.000 --> 00:03:29.080 how shocking it was. I'll give you, I'll give you 66 00:03:29.120 --> 00:03:30.960 a little bit of the background. I didn't. I didn't 67 00:03:31.240 --> 00:03:33.479 open the paper. Now this was front page news. I 68 00:03:33.520 --> 00:03:35.919 live in New York City. This was front plate page 69 00:03:36.000 --> 00:03:41.000 New York Times news. This murder in Connecticut. For for 70 00:03:41.039 --> 00:03:44.199 a while after it happened. And it wasn't like I 71 00:03:44.319 --> 00:03:46.479 opened the paper and said, Jesse, I want to write 72 00:03:46.479 --> 00:03:50.439 about this. And it didn't unfold that way at all. 73 00:03:50.879 --> 00:03:54.159 I had written a book from my publisher, a true 74 00:03:54.199 --> 00:03:56.960 crime book called Safe Farber. It was about a woman 75 00:03:57.000 --> 00:03:59.960 that was murdered on Nantucket. And so I have a 76 00:04:00.120 --> 00:04:02.919 little bit of a track record with Saint Martin's True 77 00:04:02.919 --> 00:04:07.199 Crime and my agent and my editor from the first 78 00:04:07.560 --> 00:04:11.759 true crime book I did, conspired and called me and 79 00:04:11.879 --> 00:04:15.520 asked me if I would be interested in in writing 80 00:04:15.560 --> 00:04:19.439 about the Cheshire murders. So I didn't jump into it 81 00:04:19.560 --> 00:04:23.399 right away. It was such a heinous crime. It was, 82 00:04:24.040 --> 00:04:27.279 you know, I mean, it involved children's sexual abuse all 83 00:04:27.399 --> 00:04:30.120 you know, things that can keep you up at night, 84 00:04:30.199 --> 00:04:35.199 you know, And so I but after after reading about 85 00:04:35.240 --> 00:04:39.519 it and doing some initial you know, investigating into it, 86 00:04:39.959 --> 00:04:42.399 I decided that it was a story and it was 87 00:04:42.439 --> 00:04:49.040 a story that resonated so so clearly with in cold blood, 88 00:04:49.639 --> 00:04:51.720 you know, the granddaddy of all true crimes. That it 89 00:04:51.800 --> 00:04:54.240 was an opportunity that I thought I couldn't I couldn't 90 00:04:54.240 --> 00:04:57.040 pass up, So so I did it. 91 00:04:58.120 --> 00:05:01.000 Now, let's go back and set the he's seen for 92 00:05:01.160 --> 00:05:05.120 where this crime takes place. The community to doctor William 93 00:05:05.160 --> 00:05:09.000 Pettitt and his wife and the daughter lived. Give us 94 00:05:09.040 --> 00:05:11.879 that background, give us to what the life of doctor 95 00:05:11.920 --> 00:05:14.680 Pettitt would be and his family. What were they like typically, 96 00:05:14.720 --> 00:05:16.879 what was the community like? How big is the community 97 00:05:16.879 --> 00:05:20.040 and where is it geographically to a bigger city where 98 00:05:20.040 --> 00:05:21.319 we might recognize. 99 00:05:21.680 --> 00:05:25.360 Okay, it's a it's a bedroom community Cheshire, Connecticut. It's 100 00:05:25.360 --> 00:05:30.480 a beautiful, bucolic New England town. It's like the towns 101 00:05:30.519 --> 00:05:34.480 you see in UH in movies about about New England. 102 00:05:34.560 --> 00:05:39.399 That's uh. There's some farming elements still there, but it's 103 00:05:39.480 --> 00:05:43.920 been built up through uh, you know, several waves of 104 00:05:44.040 --> 00:05:48.319 affluence and uh. It's a bedroom community to Hartford, not 105 00:05:48.360 --> 00:05:53.879 only Hartford where the insurance companies, uh, you know, the 106 00:05:53.879 --> 00:05:58.399 big insurance companies UH have their headquarters, but also to 107 00:05:58.519 --> 00:06:01.079 Yale Yale University and a lot of people that work 108 00:06:01.120 --> 00:06:06.720 at four the university live in Cheshire. Connecticut. Now. Doctor 109 00:06:06.720 --> 00:06:12.680 Pettitt was the endochronologist. His wife was a nurse worked 110 00:06:12.680 --> 00:06:16.720 in a local private school, Cheshire Academy, a very well 111 00:06:16.759 --> 00:06:20.439 known in the area of private school and she was 112 00:06:20.480 --> 00:06:25.439 the school nurse. Doctor Pettitt had a private practice and 113 00:06:25.480 --> 00:06:27.879 also worked out of a hospital up there. He was 114 00:06:28.040 --> 00:06:31.279 very well known in the community, very well respected in 115 00:06:31.319 --> 00:06:37.199 the community. They had had two daughters, Hayley who was 116 00:06:37.360 --> 00:06:41.680 about to enter Dartmouth. She was going to follow her 117 00:06:41.680 --> 00:06:44.839 father's footsteps. He had graduated from Dartmouth. She was going 118 00:06:44.879 --> 00:06:50.839 to study pre law and michaela who was eleven at 119 00:06:50.879 --> 00:06:54.519 the time. And michaela precocious young lady who was a 120 00:06:55.319 --> 00:06:58.959 fan of Rachel Ray and wanted to be a foodie, 121 00:06:58.959 --> 00:07:02.920 a chef, celebrity chef and what have you. So they 122 00:07:02.920 --> 00:07:05.199 were really the idyllic family. I mean, it was a 123 00:07:05.240 --> 00:07:08.399 perfect little block. They lived on. Sorgham Mill Drive is 124 00:07:08.439 --> 00:07:13.360 a you know as a block replicated thousands of times 125 00:07:13.399 --> 00:07:16.040 throughout North America. It's the kind of block you want 126 00:07:16.079 --> 00:07:18.079 to live on, you want to raise a family on. 127 00:07:18.240 --> 00:07:21.959 It's something like this happening on a street like that 128 00:07:22.240 --> 00:07:27.399 is so incongruous. It's uh it's it's absolutely shocking. So 129 00:07:27.480 --> 00:07:30.399 it was like the perfect setting for a family, for 130 00:07:30.519 --> 00:07:33.759 a for the doctor Pettitt's family. 131 00:07:35.800 --> 00:07:41.480 Now, let's go to the main characters in this tragic tale. 132 00:07:42.240 --> 00:07:44.600 Joshua Comas a Cooma's art. 133 00:07:45.199 --> 00:07:50.319 It's commis ar Jefski. Yeah, it's a mouthful, it's yeah Jefski. Okay, 134 00:07:50.319 --> 00:07:52.800 we got it. That name. First of all, Dan, let 135 00:07:52.800 --> 00:07:54.279 me just give you a little background. I mean, the 136 00:07:54.360 --> 00:07:58.160 name itself is was you know, it's a famous Russian name. 137 00:07:58.240 --> 00:08:02.079 His Joshua was a adopted into the family. But I mean, 138 00:08:02.120 --> 00:08:05.279 you're not alone tripping over that name. Everybody trips over 139 00:08:06.360 --> 00:08:09.959 all the journalists do, all the law enforcement people throughout 140 00:08:10.000 --> 00:08:14.079 his life, everybody associated can't get this name out. But 141 00:08:14.120 --> 00:08:17.160 the name, you know, it's Russian. That's that's snow shock. 142 00:08:17.439 --> 00:08:22.360 But it's a very famous His grandfather, his adoptive grandfather, 143 00:08:22.480 --> 00:08:28.800 Joshua was adopted, was a Russian uh director, a very 144 00:08:28.800 --> 00:08:32.600 well known director, Russian director in the in the Bolshoi Theater, 145 00:08:32.840 --> 00:08:37.600 the famous Bolshoi Ballet, the Bolshoi Theater, moved to emigrated 146 00:08:37.639 --> 00:08:42.000 to the United States, and uh you know, uh, well, 147 00:08:42.039 --> 00:08:44.919 I'll tell you a little bit about how how Joshua's 148 00:08:45.320 --> 00:08:47.279 family came out. But go ahead, I'm sorry to throw 149 00:08:47.360 --> 00:08:48.240 up what was your question? 150 00:08:49.120 --> 00:08:52.080 No, no, I just uh, it's Joshua's life. 151 00:08:52.559 --> 00:08:52.879 You met. 152 00:08:52.919 --> 00:08:55.480 You've already alluded to that he's adopted, So tell us, uh, 153 00:08:55.759 --> 00:08:58.519 go just back a little bit to how he came 154 00:08:58.559 --> 00:09:01.559 to be adopted into this a wealthy, affluent family. 155 00:09:01.879 --> 00:09:04.600 Okay, he was, you know, he was adopted at birth. 156 00:09:04.639 --> 00:09:10.799 He didn't know his birth parents. His he found a 157 00:09:10.840 --> 00:09:14.360 little bit out about them later on. And his mother 158 00:09:14.480 --> 00:09:17.559 was only sixteen. His biological mother was only sixteen. His 159 00:09:17.559 --> 00:09:21.039 father was just a little bit older, maybe nineteen twenty. 160 00:09:21.840 --> 00:09:25.759 There was the indications that there was, you know, that 161 00:09:26.120 --> 00:09:29.399 there might have been drugs involved in the biological parents, 162 00:09:29.399 --> 00:09:33.120 and that's why they put Joshua up for adoption. But 163 00:09:33.399 --> 00:09:37.720 that didn't do anything to give him a bad life, 164 00:09:37.759 --> 00:09:41.519 because he traded He traded up by being adopted. He 165 00:09:41.600 --> 00:09:46.120 was adopted the Commissar Jeski's. His parents, his adoptive parents, 166 00:09:46.559 --> 00:09:52.440 Ben and Jude Commercer Jessky, were by all indications, a lovely, lovely, 167 00:09:52.600 --> 00:09:59.519 lovely couple. There were Christians, they were fervent Christians. Joshua 168 00:09:59.519 --> 00:10:02.840 had blown to a series of of I want, I 169 00:10:02.840 --> 00:10:06.360 don't want to say fundamentalist churches, but in that vein, 170 00:10:06.480 --> 00:10:14.399 you know, very very religious people and and they were also, uh, 171 00:10:13.679 --> 00:10:18.879 the surroundings were just amazing. His his grandfather, not the 172 00:10:18.960 --> 00:10:22.360 Russian grandfather, because his grandmother married. It gets a little 173 00:10:22.360 --> 00:10:25.919 convoluted here, but his grandmother married the Russian grandfather died 174 00:10:26.039 --> 00:10:29.919 as grandmothers married a man by the name of Chamberlain 175 00:10:30.600 --> 00:10:35.759 who was a actually a pretty well known writer. He 176 00:10:35.919 --> 00:10:41.960 was columnist for several big magazines and also a book 177 00:10:42.039 --> 00:10:46.159 reviewer for the New York Times. And he owned a 178 00:10:46.240 --> 00:10:49.679 sixty five acre estate in Cheshire, and it was surrounded 179 00:10:49.720 --> 00:10:53.639 by horse farms. It was it's beautiful. It's a wooded streams, 180 00:10:53.720 --> 00:10:56.200 babbling brooks, you name it. It was just a beautiful place. 181 00:10:56.200 --> 00:10:59.759 And that's where Joshua grew up. His his parents had 182 00:10:59.759 --> 00:11:02.360 a small house. They called it the homestead. It makes 183 00:11:02.399 --> 00:11:05.039 it sound like it's a bigger place than it actually was, 184 00:11:05.200 --> 00:11:07.480 you know. And it was kind of ramshackled when when 185 00:11:07.519 --> 00:11:11.320 I went up and start But the I mean, he 186 00:11:11.399 --> 00:11:15.720 had he had every every advantage. Now, early on he 187 00:11:15.840 --> 00:11:20.480 started to show some he started to show some behavioral 188 00:11:20.519 --> 00:11:22.879 problems and and and they had to take him out 189 00:11:22.879 --> 00:11:27.720 of uh public schools, and his mom homeschooled him. But 190 00:11:27.919 --> 00:11:32.559 that that didn't inhibit any any education at all. I 191 00:11:32.600 --> 00:11:36.559 mean he he his mother was a librarian. His a 192 00:11:36.639 --> 00:11:39.159 grandfather who lived on the estate with this, was a writer. 193 00:11:39.440 --> 00:11:42.159 His grandmother was a ballet dancer. I mean, they had 194 00:11:42.240 --> 00:11:45.600 all of this influence of arts and and and and 195 00:11:45.759 --> 00:11:50.559 letters and and uh. His father was Ben Commercer Jeesky. 196 00:11:50.600 --> 00:11:53.399 He was a carpenter and an electrician, so we had 197 00:11:53.759 --> 00:11:58.039 you know, tutelage in in uh, you know, working with 198 00:11:58.080 --> 00:12:02.200 his hands and everything. I mean, had a wonderfull childhood. 199 00:12:02.200 --> 00:12:05.440 It was just it was just great. But around the 200 00:12:05.480 --> 00:12:09.559 age of twelve he started to get he had this 201 00:12:10.600 --> 00:12:12.440 and you know, I'll tell you a little bit. I 202 00:12:12.759 --> 00:12:16.279 actually spoke to him on a number of occasions and 203 00:12:16.799 --> 00:12:23.519 had a correspondence with him via letter letters for many 204 00:12:23.600 --> 00:12:26.480 months leading up to the trial. But I'll tell you 205 00:12:26.519 --> 00:12:29.000 that later. So that's how I have all that This 206 00:12:29.120 --> 00:12:33.519 information comes firsthand. It comes from him. You know, when 207 00:12:33.559 --> 00:12:36.200 he was around twelve, he broke into a house he 208 00:12:36.320 --> 00:12:42.039 was coming home. He used to he used to leave 209 00:12:42.080 --> 00:12:45.000 the house like he'd wait till his parents went to sleep, 210 00:12:45.039 --> 00:12:47.679 and about twelve o'clock at night one o'clock in the morning, 211 00:12:48.000 --> 00:12:49.559 he'd get out of the house. He'd go out his 212 00:12:49.639 --> 00:12:52.360 bedroom window and jump on the garage and then go 213 00:12:52.440 --> 00:12:55.000 into the woods, you know, and spend the night in 214 00:12:55.039 --> 00:12:57.279 the woods. And they'd always make it back in time 215 00:12:58.159 --> 00:13:00.440 before six o'clock and when his father would wake up, 216 00:13:00.480 --> 00:13:04.039 So his father never knew he was out of the house, 217 00:13:04.159 --> 00:13:09.519 but he was. He was doing these night night voyages 218 00:13:09.639 --> 00:13:12.320 or whatever through the woods by himself, you know. And 219 00:13:12.679 --> 00:13:17.240 one day he got he ventured father than he thought, 220 00:13:17.320 --> 00:13:18.799 and the son was coming up, and he knew he 221 00:13:18.840 --> 00:13:21.360 was going to get caught, so he broke into a house. 222 00:13:21.399 --> 00:13:24.320 He's twelve years old. He broke into a house, stole 223 00:13:24.480 --> 00:13:27.039 a set of keys for a car, and took the 224 00:13:27.080 --> 00:13:29.240 car out of the driveway and drove it home so 225 00:13:29.279 --> 00:13:31.480 he could beat his father getting up so he wouldn't 226 00:13:31.519 --> 00:13:34.600 get caught. And that's how his life of crime started. 227 00:13:34.679 --> 00:13:37.399 And it was pretty big was for a twelve year old. 228 00:13:37.440 --> 00:13:39.559 There was a pretty big entrance to the last year 229 00:13:39.639 --> 00:13:44.279 rhyme stealing a car. But something he realized how and 230 00:13:44.320 --> 00:13:46.279 this is according to him, and you know how much 231 00:13:46.320 --> 00:13:50.480 of it is. You know, Joshua has a tendency to 232 00:13:50.840 --> 00:13:54.919 exaggerate a little bit. I think it doesn't his but his. 233 00:13:55.879 --> 00:13:58.120 I mean, the crimes that he would commit over the 234 00:13:58.159 --> 00:14:05.120 next fourteen years leading up to the murders in Cheshire 235 00:14:05.159 --> 00:14:08.279 were just enormous. I mean, even if only fifty percent 236 00:14:08.279 --> 00:14:10.960 of them were true, it was an enormous life of crime, 237 00:14:11.000 --> 00:14:15.919 and an amazing life of crime. He he found out, 238 00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:17.759 he said to me how easy it was to break 239 00:14:17.759 --> 00:14:20.559 into the house. So he started breaking into the houses 240 00:14:20.600 --> 00:14:23.039 when he was twelve. He'd get on his bicycle he'd 241 00:14:23.120 --> 00:14:26.000 have he'd go out the window of his bedroom, like 242 00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:28.559 like I said, he'd get on get on his bicycle. 243 00:14:28.600 --> 00:14:31.399 He had a camouflage outfit that he sent away for 244 00:14:31.679 --> 00:14:35.360 you know, like a male mail order camouflage outfit. He 245 00:14:35.399 --> 00:14:38.240 had a dark skull cap. Later on he bought night 246 00:14:38.320 --> 00:14:41.039 vision goggles, you know, from the back of a magazine 247 00:14:41.240 --> 00:14:44.919 something like that. Yeah, I mean, I mean, I'm laughing, 248 00:14:44.960 --> 00:14:46.960 but I'm not. It's not It's not funny at all. 249 00:14:47.080 --> 00:14:49.240 I don't I don't mean, I don't mean to diminish 250 00:14:49.320 --> 00:14:52.440 what what would happened. But you can imagine this kid 251 00:14:52.480 --> 00:14:56.240 at twelve, thinking that he was, you know, the burglar, 252 00:14:57.679 --> 00:15:00.879 you know, par excellence, and and and he was. He 253 00:15:00.919 --> 00:15:04.960 started breaking into houses by the dozens when he was twelve. 254 00:15:05.200 --> 00:15:08.440 He broke into houses all over this town of Cheshire 255 00:15:08.440 --> 00:15:13.080 and middle in central Connecticut. He broke into houses around 256 00:15:13.399 --> 00:15:18.200 the Pettit neighborhood where the you know, the murders would happen. 257 00:15:18.639 --> 00:15:23.240 Many years later, he by his own account, broke into 258 00:15:23.639 --> 00:15:27.480 at least two hundred houses during his teens. Sometimes he 259 00:15:27.519 --> 00:15:30.960 wouldn't take anything. He would sit in the house. He said, 260 00:15:31.039 --> 00:15:34.200 he wrote this whole letter of explaining how it was 261 00:15:34.320 --> 00:15:37.039 being in a house with the people sleeping upstairs and 262 00:15:37.080 --> 00:15:40.120 them not knowing he was there, and the feelings that 263 00:15:40.200 --> 00:15:42.879 he had. He'd listened to the sounds of the house, 264 00:15:42.960 --> 00:15:46.879 the pipes, the house settling, the wind in the eaves. 265 00:15:47.240 --> 00:15:49.480 I mean, it was really really creepy. He had this, 266 00:15:50.519 --> 00:15:54.440 you know, long, long explanation. Sometimes he wouldn't, like I said, 267 00:15:54.480 --> 00:15:57.080 he wouldn't take anything. Sometimes he'd just take a picture 268 00:15:57.159 --> 00:16:00.519 off the wall, just to like screw with the people's 269 00:16:00.600 --> 00:16:03.279 minds a little bit, you know. I mean there was something. 270 00:16:03.960 --> 00:16:09.240 I mean, obviously there was a something was something was 271 00:16:09.799 --> 00:16:13.039 a miss he or something was wrong with his you know, 272 00:16:13.279 --> 00:16:16.240 with his psyche early on, but he didn't get caught. 273 00:16:16.279 --> 00:16:22.679 He wouldn't get caught. He finally, when he was about 274 00:16:22.919 --> 00:16:27.960 I want to say, sixteen years old, he started a 275 00:16:28.039 --> 00:16:32.440 fire in an abandoned car dealership in Cheshire and he 276 00:16:32.480 --> 00:16:36.200 got caught for that. And because he got caught for that, 277 00:16:37.200 --> 00:16:40.720 some of the prior crimes came out. Either he gave 278 00:16:40.759 --> 00:16:43.639 it up himself or I'm not really sure how it happened, 279 00:16:44.080 --> 00:16:48.639 but he faced the first of a series of judges 280 00:16:49.120 --> 00:16:56.559 in his late teens that would he had like a 281 00:16:57.360 --> 00:16:59.840 he had this he has this way about him now 282 00:17:00.080 --> 00:17:02.240 when I interviewed him, I sort a lot. You know. 283 00:17:02.480 --> 00:17:08.000 It's that he comes across so likable, so polite, so 284 00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:13.200 soft spoken. So you know that people wanted to believe 285 00:17:13.559 --> 00:17:17.000 throughout his life that there was something in there worth saving, 286 00:17:17.240 --> 00:17:21.359 you know, there was something He has these uh, a 287 00:17:21.519 --> 00:17:24.519 way of looking at you that that that has an 288 00:17:24.559 --> 00:17:28.359 innocence about it, you know, and uh and and and 289 00:17:28.440 --> 00:17:31.160 he started to get breaks. You know, one judge after 290 00:17:31.240 --> 00:17:35.480 or another gave him you know, uh, you know, put 291 00:17:35.559 --> 00:17:39.000 him in like the parents. The first time, the first arrest, 292 00:17:39.079 --> 00:17:42.519 the parents talked the judge into letting them put him 293 00:17:42.519 --> 00:17:45.519 in a Christian Christian camp, and and he went into 294 00:17:45.599 --> 00:17:48.160 a Christian camp and up up in New Hampshire, and 295 00:17:48.200 --> 00:17:51.119 he spent some time up there, and then he got 296 00:17:51.119 --> 00:17:55.359 caught for something else, and the judge said to him, uh, 297 00:17:56.079 --> 00:18:00.559 you know, uh, you need some psychological help. So they 298 00:18:00.559 --> 00:18:04.920 put him in this cycle this it wasn't a mental hospital, 299 00:18:04.960 --> 00:18:09.039 but it was a hospital for trouble teens, a place 300 00:18:09.119 --> 00:18:12.440 for trouble teens, but it wasn't jail. And then the 301 00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:15.160 third judge, he got caught for something. The third judge 302 00:18:15.200 --> 00:18:17.519 said to him, you know, either go in the army 303 00:18:17.839 --> 00:18:20.680 or now he's nineteen, either go in the army or 304 00:18:20.720 --> 00:18:22.799 we'll put you in jail. So he joined the army. 305 00:18:22.799 --> 00:18:25.759 He would ultimately go a well from the army Army 306 00:18:25.839 --> 00:18:29.119 reserves about a year later, or less than a year later. 307 00:18:29.240 --> 00:18:33.640 But you know, there was so many missed opportunities early 308 00:18:33.720 --> 00:18:38.000 on where and in the meantime he amassed this like 309 00:18:38.559 --> 00:18:44.039 enormous number of burglaries, and you know, people were looking 310 00:18:44.039 --> 00:18:46.640 the other way. People kept thinking that there's something about 311 00:18:46.680 --> 00:18:52.359 this guy that's that's not you know, that's you know, 312 00:18:52.400 --> 00:18:55.599 he's too nice of a boy to be worried about, 313 00:18:55.720 --> 00:18:59.160 you know, But he wasn't, you know, he had already 314 00:18:59.200 --> 00:19:04.559 started to formulate a personality that wasn't a nice boy 315 00:19:04.599 --> 00:19:06.559 at all. It wasn't a nice boy at all. 316 00:19:06.839 --> 00:19:10.680 So one of the things that you didn't talk about 317 00:19:10.759 --> 00:19:12.119 we could talk about a little bit later. But I 318 00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:15.079 think it's fair that at least fair to his character. 319 00:19:15.680 --> 00:19:19.359 Not that I put that much weight on it, but 320 00:19:19.359 --> 00:19:22.359 but the fact is that, again, a lot of this 321 00:19:22.359 --> 00:19:25.640 stuff is coming from his perspective. He's telling you this, 322 00:19:25.799 --> 00:19:28.359 so you have no way to really verify. But in 323 00:19:28.400 --> 00:19:30.559 the same instance, to be fair, he says that at 324 00:19:30.599 --> 00:19:31.440 six years old. 325 00:19:31.240 --> 00:19:33.440 He is Ryan here, and I have a question for you. 326 00:19:33.680 --> 00:19:35.599 What do you do when you win? 327 00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:36.079 Like? 328 00:19:36.160 --> 00:19:39.240 Are you a fist pumper, a woo or a handclapper 329 00:19:39.279 --> 00:19:41.079 a high fiver? I kind of like the high five. 330 00:19:41.119 --> 00:19:42.880 But if you want to hone in on those winning moves, 331 00:19:43.079 --> 00:19:46.240 check out Chumbuck Casino at chumbacasino dot com. Choose from 332 00:19:46.319 --> 00:19:48.880 hundreds of social casino style games for your chance to 333 00:19:48.920 --> 00:19:52.720 redeem serious cash prize. 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Are you 346 00:20:24.160 --> 00:20:27.519 feeling lucky? No, we're just necessary void. We're prohibited by 347 00:20:27.599 --> 00:20:31.799 law eighteen plus. Terms and conditions apply. See website for details. 348 00:20:31.960 --> 00:20:35.799 It's old that there was two more adopted children and 349 00:20:36.119 --> 00:20:37.119 there was an older boy. 350 00:20:37.599 --> 00:20:38.880 Yeah yeah, Chares. 351 00:20:39.559 --> 00:20:42.640 Yeah, he characterizes not as moles station, So anybody's gonna 352 00:20:42.839 --> 00:20:47.160 He said it was outright flat out rape and was 353 00:20:48.079 --> 00:20:51.359 torturous for him for I don't know how much time. 354 00:20:51.400 --> 00:20:53.440 Maybe you can tell us a little bit about that, yeah, yeah, 355 00:20:53.440 --> 00:20:56.160 because I mean there's anything, if there's anything about his 356 00:20:56.279 --> 00:21:01.559 background that seems amiss. This is really this, really is it, 357 00:21:01.279 --> 00:21:06.559 and it can be considered fairly well, very serious bite 358 00:21:06.599 --> 00:21:07.559 his idyllic. 359 00:21:07.240 --> 00:21:11.400 Background, considering considering what would happen on Sorgum Mill Drive, 360 00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:13.839 which we'll talk about, you know, in a little bit, 361 00:21:13.960 --> 00:21:18.200 but considering what happened in the house that night. Yeah, 362 00:21:18.319 --> 00:21:21.440 you're absolutely right. I mean, it has a huge, huge, 363 00:21:21.519 --> 00:21:25.400 and no doubt Joshua goes to trial next next year, 364 00:21:25.559 --> 00:21:28.559 early next year, and no doubt that's going to play 365 00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:32.960 a large part in the defense of of of him 366 00:21:33.440 --> 00:21:37.279 and what you're talking about his mother. It wasn't an 367 00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:40.920 adopted it was a She brought in two foster children 368 00:21:41.079 --> 00:21:45.720 and one of them was Joshua was six or seven 369 00:21:45.799 --> 00:21:48.680 at the time, maybe even younger. I don't I can't remember. 370 00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:51.799 Six yeah, six years old at the time. And this 371 00:21:52.519 --> 00:21:55.200 there was a boy and a girl of the foster children, 372 00:21:55.359 --> 00:21:59.640 and the boy was sixteen and according to Joshua, and 373 00:21:59.680 --> 00:22:03.480 it's and it's the court records, because Joshua would would 374 00:22:03.519 --> 00:22:06.440 be arrested when he was twenty two and and in 375 00:22:06.480 --> 00:22:12.079 those records, in testimony from that from that trial, he 376 00:22:12.319 --> 00:22:15.480 uh it came out that he had in fact been 377 00:22:16.599 --> 00:22:22.680 uh sexually assaulted by by this this forster Forster boy, 378 00:22:22.880 --> 00:22:26.359 you know, And Joshua, you're right, Joshua says, and I 379 00:22:26.359 --> 00:22:29.839 think the quote is merciless rape that he was and 380 00:22:29.880 --> 00:22:36.279 that it went on for months. You know, there's no way, 381 00:22:36.440 --> 00:22:38.920 I mean, even though it's court records, doesn't it I 382 00:22:38.920 --> 00:22:44.519 guess there's no way short of putting his parents on 383 00:22:44.559 --> 00:22:47.119 the stand. And I you know, I don't really know 384 00:22:47.160 --> 00:22:50.559 whether they were completely because it went on for so 385 00:22:50.680 --> 00:22:55.960 long to substantiate it completely. But there's you know, there's 386 00:22:56.680 --> 00:23:01.720 I think there's there's also court records from psychiatrist, psychologists 387 00:23:01.759 --> 00:23:04.720 and what have you that interviewed Joshua. So it's pretty 388 00:23:05.240 --> 00:23:07.960 there's a there's a pretty good chance that it actually 389 00:23:08.359 --> 00:23:10.920 occurred that he was raped when he was five or 390 00:23:10.960 --> 00:23:13.920 six by the by the older foster boy. So you're right. 391 00:23:14.039 --> 00:23:17.559 And and like I said, what what would transpire on 392 00:23:17.880 --> 00:23:21.960 sorgum Mill Drive would would certainly uh, you know that 393 00:23:21.960 --> 00:23:26.960 that is certainly a huge, huge part of his formative uh, 394 00:23:27.039 --> 00:23:29.519 his formation as a as a as a as a 395 00:23:29.559 --> 00:23:31.839 human being, but also as a as a criminal and 396 00:23:31.920 --> 00:23:34.079 as a you know, a criminal that committed one of 397 00:23:34.079 --> 00:23:39.000 the most heinous crimes in Connecticut state history. So you're right, yep. 398 00:23:40.440 --> 00:23:44.079 Now, the other perpetrator here, the other character in this 399 00:23:44.720 --> 00:23:47.960 is a man named Stephen Hayes, a lot more, a 400 00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:51.640 lot less interesting, but still for for the official record, 401 00:23:51.920 --> 00:23:52.880