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Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekanana Show,

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returning Radical Liberation. How are you doing, sir?

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Speaker 2: Very good?

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Speaker 1: All right. This is this is a result of myself

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and Charlie doing the episode on the article from nineteen

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eighty seven the gay rights activists talking about the plan

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to go forward, which I don't know. Some people are like, well,

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this is just a couple of people writing articles. It's like,

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it seems like a lot of it came true.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I mean the significance is not that like

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those two were the key figures, the ones who wrote

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that article, right, It's more that here's the plans just

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laid out for you, right, step by step, and what

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did they do what they said? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: And I think that once you realize is that this

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kind of stuff, when people start talking about this kind

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of stuff, people catch on a couple of people. Even

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if only a couple of people read it, they're going

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to talk to about other people. They're going to talk

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to other people about it. But not only that, it

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seems like it manages to make its way in the

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zeitgeist through media, the press, magazines, things. People build upon it.

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They read and they're like, okay, let's keep this going.

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We get this is the way we can do it.

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Even if we don't get all of it, we get

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some of it. And I think that led to you

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contacted me about a certain subject. But why don't you

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start off talking about how you would have even come

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upon something like.

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Speaker 2: This, Yeah, a long time ago. By the way, on

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your comments you were just making, I'd say the usual

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caveat that that way that those ideas slide out into

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the zeitgeist works for one side and not for the other, right,

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is a symmetrical idea of battle of ideas. But anyway,

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less than anyone had illusions. Yeah, So I remember, I

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think I was around fifteen, and I was thinking about

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mainstream media, and what bothered me about it was that

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it wasn't so much the thing of like I could

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blatantly see when they were biased sometimes, you know, because

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I was always in one way or another on the outside,

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was sort of in a dissonance space all my life,

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so I could kind of see their angle on some

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things pretty plainly. What bothered me was the frame game.

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I didn't have that term for it back then, right,

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I could tell that there were times where just what

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I was thinking about was being shaped by this ingest

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of constant ingest mainstream media. Right, just what even matters

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and what doesn't get talked about, what quietly goes down

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the memory hole? Right? That really bothered me. I felt manipulated,

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right Like, maybe I don't want to be thinking about

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the things that they want me to be thinking about.

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Maybe I want to think about other things that they

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don't want me to be thinking about. Right, So, at

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the tender age of fifteen, I decided to just stop.

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I didn't watch the news, I didn't read newspapers, even

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though I had sort of interests along those lines, and

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I never went back. What I did do, though, is

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I thought, well, I don't like this pretense to objectivity.

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I would like people who lay their cards on the

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table at bit more and say this is our ideological goal,

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this is what we're driving towards, this is how we're

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doing it. That seemed like a certain honesty in it,

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you might say. So I stopped reading the mainstream media,

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and I decided to read something on the right, don't

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laugh at me, pete National Review, and something on the left,

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which was The Humanist. I quickly got bored of the

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National Review, though it did introduce me to Eric fun

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Connult laden for which I'm grateful, who I later got

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to meet. But I stopped reading National Review eventually and

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sort of went down the rabbit hole, right, But The

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Humanist was quite interesting because they were pushing some of

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the things that I wouldn't hear about elsewhere for a

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long time to come, or wouldn't be big news, particularly

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big news. So I remember, and we couldn't find this article.

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But I remember, as I recall reading an article probably

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in the late eighties, where they said, Okay, it looks

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like you know, Roe v. Wade abortions in the bag,

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So what's next, and they said infanticide and euthanasia. I

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was like, holy crap, they have ambition, I guess you

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could say. And so I found that sort of shocking

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and it's stuck in my head. And then over time, well,

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here's what brought it back to mind is that my

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co host black Horse was sharing some stats on euthanasia

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in Canada. And you know the way that's framed, right,

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people in these very extreme, you know, very unusual, very

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rare edge case scenarios, you would understand that you'd want

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to do it. You know, I'm seeing the numbers and

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I'm like, oh, this is like a lot of the

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people dying in Canada are being euthanized. Like this is

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not trivial. This isn't like five people. These are bigger

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numbers than that, and we've got them Handy might get

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into them later. But so that kind of brought it

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back to mind that there were people who had been

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you know, the article we found is nineteen ninety three,

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so that's thirty years ago. Thirty years ago they were like,

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we need to push for euthanasia. Now. What I think

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is interesting to look back at an article like this

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is what why, Like what what was there?

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Speaker 1: Why?

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Speaker 2: Why were they pushing for it, and what did they

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think would persuade people to go in this direction, which

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I think back then when I was reading it, it

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seemed pretty edgy. It didn't seem like something that most

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people would go for, right, But we know the process

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of subversion and get the idea out there, put it

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into some TV shows, you know, and movies and stuff

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like that. That's you know, there's a whole chain of

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things they do to roll, slow roll it until suddenly

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everybody just thinks it's normal. Right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, And that's exactly what the article on how

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they were going to brainwash straight America into Yeah, and

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what's I think the most interesting thing about it is

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they they weren't concerned about turning straight America into activists

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for them, they wanted them. They wanted it to just

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be something that was just normal to them, just like

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I think they said, just another flavor of ice cream.

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It's like, oh, these people just they prefer chocolate instead

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of vanilla, or vanilla instead of chocolate. So you're the

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attitude is, well, you know, these are We're a free country,

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and these people have a right to do what they

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want as long as they're not hurting anyone else. And

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you can see how that, especially with the absence of faith,

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it just goes right over into euthanasia, and it goes

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right over into infenoside.

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Speaker 2: Right, yeah, and where does it stop? Right? That's well

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as it is, right, but how far can we do?

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You know what I haven't seen is the follow up

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to okay, abortion and fantaside euthanasia. What's next after that?

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I don't know what the next part the next step

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in the game is.

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Speaker 1: Right, yeah, so we have this, we have the articles,

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I guess, yeah, well, yeah, yeah, you want to pull

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up you want me to pull up the article and start,

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uh yeah, and start going through this a little bit.

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Speaker 2: Right, So this is from a US magazine. There, there's

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a British magazine that we stumbled onto called The New Humanist,

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I think where it's had various titles. But this is

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a magazine called The Humanist. And this is from January

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February issue of nineteen ninety three. And I think they

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noted that the author had actually he had, yes, died

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in August nineteen ninety two, so I guess they were

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sitting on the article for a while. I don't know. Yeah,

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but he's a sociology. He was a sociologist at City

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University of New York Kuney.

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Speaker 1: I think they call him Cooney yep, yeah, I remember

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so that that was the if you couldn't get into

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a good school in New York, like Manhattan College or something,

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you'd end up in Cooney. All right, So what we're

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gonna do here is the first paragraph is great. Then

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there he gives background. They talk about Caroen, Anne Quinland,

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they talk about doctor Klevorkian. We're gonna skip over that,

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and then we're just gonna jump right to like political

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action based upon the doctor Covorkian's name and what he's

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doing being out there, what voters in certain states start

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to do. So let me. I'll start rooting, and you

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stop me. And I know you're going to stop me

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after the first sentence, so I'll stop after the first sentence.

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All right. This is Death with Dignity by William McCord.

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Albert Camu wrote in The Myth of Sisyphice there is

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only one truly important philosophical problem, and that is suicide.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's a heavy statement, and it's in a way,

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I guess it's what I've been thinking about a lot

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these days. In two senses. One is people, Actually, you know,

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what's the what's the drug that everybody's using in the

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in the poor white communities? My mind's flatanyl sentinyl. Yeah, yeah,

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people slowly killing themselves with fentanyl. Fentanyl, various other deaths

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that I might call a sort of a death of

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despair or something death of isolation and despair. But also

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I was really struck by what I think a shared

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it where where a lady was talking about how she

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decided to get herself fixed or whatever you call it broken,

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so that she could not reproduce in her early twenties,

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and that that I from, I'm a sort of traditionalist

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or Burkian point of view. I kind of think about

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as sort of a form of suicide, if you follow me,

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there's killing yourself and ending your line that way, and

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there's also just not continuing, not wanting to continue, not

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wanting to continue what came down to you from your ancestors,

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and continuing it through your children. You're going to be

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the stopping point, right. You can do it by killing

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yourself or you can do it by not reproducing. Either way,

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but in both senses. I think as you see more

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and more of that, and I think we are seeing

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more of both, it's a form of broad you know,

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civilizational suicide. Right. We are not interested in continuing this

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thing anymore, which is sad and concerning.

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Speaker 1: All right, Continuing the significance of that sentiment forcing each

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of us to a heightened awareness of the elements of

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human dignity, the sanctity of life, and the very meaning

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of existence perhaps never been more explicit than it is today.

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For the first time in history, Americans have been asked

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to decide the crucial question, is it morally permissible or

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even admirable for a human being to end his or

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her own life or to assist another in shedding this

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mortal coil.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a little strange that he says that for

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the first time in history, because he goes on to

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try to pull on precedents from like realm and stuff.

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If I remember correctly, he tries to pull up some

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historical precedents and say, hey, you know, people have done

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this before.

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Speaker 1: Well, the interesting thing about this is, and it's not

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really interesting, it's the significance of the sentiment forcing each

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of us to heightened awareness of the elements of human dignity,

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the sanctity of life, and the remania has perhaps never

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been more explicit than it is today. For the first

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time in history, Americans have been asked, well, who's asking them?

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I mean, this.

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Speaker 2: Is just.

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Speaker 1: It's just academics asking this question. The average ninety nine

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point nine percent of the people don't care about this.

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They you know, it's just them pushing it, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this is this is the the moral equivalent or

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the rhetorical equivalent to saying, have you really asked yourself

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whether five year olds can consent to sex voluntarily? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I hadn't.

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Speaker 2: I hadn't been asking myself that should I be right? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Well, I mean it's basically like saying, well, a lot

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of people Americans are faced with the you know, let's

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just change it. For the first time in history, Americans

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have been asked to decide the crucial question. A crucial question,

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is it morally permissible to have sex with a five

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year old? Well? Nobody is who's asking that question?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, And it's stated as if this is all

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around you. You're not in the conversation yet, what's your opinion?

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I mean, we all have opinions. You don't have your

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opinion yet?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, all right, So this.

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Speaker 2: Is why I stopped reading the mainstream media. Now, you know,

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I didn't want that. It gets in you, right, You

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don't even realize there's.

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Speaker 1: So many tricks, right, oh yeah, yeah. So it talks

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about a couple cas here, Yeah, I got a background,

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and then it jumps into okay, So voters in the

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state of Washington decided to put the matter on a

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democratic ballot in nineteen ninety one. Citizens of Washington considered

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a legislative proposition unlike any other ever debated by Americans

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Initiative one nineteen asked shall adult patients who are in

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medically terminal condition be permitted to request and receive from

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a physician aid in dying. The proposition provided that adults

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could execute a medical directive requesting aid in dying only

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after two physicians certified that they were mentally competent, terminal

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ill and had less than six months to live. Two

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independent witnesses had to certify the patient's decision.

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Speaker 2: Well, one thing that strikes me here, Pete. Right, and

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this is just my big theme of banging on the progressives.

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I mean the progressives from you know, one hundred years ago,

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like late nineteenth early twentieth century. This is the experts,

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not the family. First of all, right, you're gonna have

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your experts do this. I'm sorry, what am I saying?

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Not just the family. The church is out of the picture.

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The family's out of the picture, society's out of the picture.

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The experts signed off on this. Hey, we're good, right.

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Once the experts sign off, you can do it whatever

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you want.

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Speaker 1: Yep. Yeah, I mean we see, I mean we see

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how the expert class in the last three years has

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just i mean jumped right to the front forefront of everything.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not subtle anymore.

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Speaker 1: You don't trust the science.

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Speaker 2: Steven, Yeah, exactly, trust doctors.

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Speaker 1: Although public opinion polls indicated that sixty one percent of

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Washingtonians favored the initiative, a majority of voters fifty four

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percent opposed the measure when it actually came before them.

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Some motivated by religious arguments, feared it would undermine the

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sanctity of life. Others favored euthanasia, but question whether this

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proposal had too many loopholes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and by the way, this is part of the

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reason I liked this article is that, you know, he

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does play some tricks, which we're calling out, but he

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also says, hey, some people were concerned about sanctity of life.

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He doesn't just completely. He does a little bit of

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reporting that is, you know fair enough. Right. Yeah, he's

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bringing up the concerns. That's why I say I like

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this article because this is sort of Steelman. You know,

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if you're going to be if you're going to face

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somebody arguing for youth in Asia, I think this guy

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the best that can be done given his assumptions.

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Speaker 1: Among the issues that disturb the opponents of the proposition,

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where these can physicians really no patients which wishes? Can

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they accurately diagnose and predict how much time is left?

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Might not patients mistakenly label this terminal choose to die needlessly?

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Would the elderly choose suicide or even be pushed into

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death simply to spare their family's energies, emotions, and pocket books.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you're already making the point. You've already

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made the point, Pete. But this is where they call

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it in sales. It's talking past the sale. Yeah. Yeah,

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we're already past the point of should this even be

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on the table, and we're getting into the details, right,

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you know, how do how do we how do we

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put this into practice? What's what's the prudent way to

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kill people?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he's he's begging the question here. He's already got

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the he already knows where he's going. The wash Srington

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vote hardly ended Americans anguish over the process of dying.

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A Boston Globe pole showed that sixty four percent of

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the public favors letting doctors give lethal injections to the

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terminally ill. Derek Humphrey's Final Exit, a handbook on how

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to commit suicide, achieved bestseller status, and other states had

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prepared new and improved versions of initiative when nineteen the

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first such measure was voted down by Californians in the

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nineteen ninety two elections.

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Speaker 2: And maybe there's a good time. It seemed like you

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knew a little bit about this. What I didn't do

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is dig into where has this gone since legislatively, And

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you said, it's mostly Oregon where we've seen any kind

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of attempts to kind of keep going in this direction strongly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Oregon has the Oh I can't remember what it's called.

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Let me look at my history real quick. It's right

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to die, as you said something like that. Yeah, it's

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the Death with Dignity Act.

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Speaker 2: Dignity yes, yeah, and so in theory we're holding the

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wine in the United States, but in other countries.

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Speaker 1: That's very interesting that it's the Death with Dignity Act,

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considering that's the name of the title of this this essay.

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Speaker 2: Oh I miss that. Yeah, wow, this guy, I introduced

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some important rhetoric here right into the name of the bill.

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Thank you. I miss that.

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Speaker 1: The fact is that the euthanasia issue, the euthanasia issue,

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especially when linked to the controversy controversy over abortion has

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emerged as one of the great debates in turn of

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the century America. The public must choose between the various

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rights of life and pro choice arguments as they applied

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to death as well as to birth right.

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Speaker 2: And remember he's writing in ninety three row versus way.

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It is going on twenty years at the point that

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battle is done and dusted and they're moving on the

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next thing. So in a way, you could read that

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paragraph as a bit of a flex like, you know,

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this is like abortion, and we already won that one,

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So we kind of know where this one's going to,

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don't we.

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Speaker 1: Right, Because some Western nations, notably the Netherlands, have long

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tolerated euthanasia, people on both sides of the issue look

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to them for enlightenment. How many people do you think

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that is?

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Speaker 2: I mean, I knew about it because I have an

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interest in this issue, But I would say that's trivia

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question in the end of the for an American.

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Speaker 1: You know, the Dutch experience is particularly relevant since the

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practice of euthanasia is more open and extensive there than

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any other place in the world. Although Dutch law formally

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forbids assisted suicide, authorities and doctors have long chosen to

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ignore the prohibition. According to a government twenty five three

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hundred cases of euthanasia, active or passive occur each year

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in the Netherlands. This represents nineteen point four percent of

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all deaths.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Now I fact checked that and I could not

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back that up. I don't know why he would do this,

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but from a quick googling, I could not see anybody

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making such a claim of such high numbers. They did

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have numbers for euthanasia and Holland, but it wasn't like that. Canada,

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on the other hand, where's that? There we go Canada

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twenty sixteen that they have a medical assistant. Sorry, what's

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the thing called made? Is the medical assistance in dying? Okay,

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that's the thing they call it in Canada. And I'm

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looking at the numbers here. Twenty sixteen it gout rolling oney,

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eighteen people were euthanized. By twenty twenty one, it's ten

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thousand and sixty four. With my Canadian co host black

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Horse saying he expects that sort of you know, exponential

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growth to spike up once we get the two twenty

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twenty two to twenty twenty three numbers. Everything he's seeing everything.

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All his indications are this is just getting bigger and bigger.

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So it's starting to become not negligible, you know, like

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I said, not like yeah, okay, there's a few very

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hard cases, you know, and there's five people that this

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happened to now, I mean ten thousand people in a year.

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This is starting to become a part of how people die, right,

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is through this process, right right? All?

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Speaker 1: Right. Of that total, there were thirteen six hundred and

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ninety one cases in which an overdose of morphine or

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the withdrawal of life sustaining treatment brought about death, and

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approximately thirty nine percent of those deaths, the physicians and

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families reached the decision to practice euthanasia after the patient's

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deteriorating state had rendered him or her uncons unconscious and

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there was no prospect.

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Speaker 2: Of improvement, right, meaning that they unilaterally decided because remember

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he was talking about making your own choice. But in

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that case, it's the person is not making the choice.

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Speaker 1: Right right. In the other case is the patients themselves

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reached their decision after rational and prolonged consideration. One study

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regulating death by Carlos S. Gomez indicates that there are

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no rigid rules governing the Dutch system. Contrary to American

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opponents of euthanasia, the Dutch approach has met with wide

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public approval and has not led to devaluation of human

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life per se.

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Speaker 2: Well, we don't know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe should America follow? Should America follow the Dutch example?

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In the great debate over this issue, which is not

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a great debate. It's a couple of people, a controversy,

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controversy which is to inflame the nineteen nineties. Not really, No,

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two issues require careful separation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, real quick, real quick. What's your memory? I remember

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the Kavorkian stuff.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I do too.

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Speaker 2: That was kind of in the news and everything, and

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then Karen Anne quinnlin I just the name is about

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all I remember. I don't remember the details of the case,

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but I don't remember a lot of talk about it

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after Kavorkian. Frankly do you. But then, of course I

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watched the mainstream media.

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Speaker 1: There was in the two thousands, there was Terry Schaibo Okay, yep, yeah, yeah,

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that would have that was that was the husband trying

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to pull the get the plug pulled, So it would

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have been family seeking to do that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Okay to two things. Two issues go ahead.

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Speaker 1: Okay, First, does the individual human being have the right

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to end his or her existence? Second, should society remain

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aloof from this decision? Or should policy establish the ground

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rules governing the individual, his or her family, and the

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medical profession. That seems that's there's more questions that they

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can be included in this. Yeah, these aren't the only

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two questions.

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Speaker 2: Right, right, right, And just that second one, what he's

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talking about is establishing a whole bureaucratic apparatus around killing people,

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just to just to you know, not make too fine

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a point on it here, right, I mean, when have

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we ever had a problem establishing a big bureaucratic apparatus

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of like this, right? What could go wrong?

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Speaker 1: People run to that? I mean, I mean the politicians

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love that. Oh oh you want to love Okay, you're

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going to give us more power? Okay, thank you? All right?

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: On the level of the individual, a classic lineage of thinkers,

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from Socrates to Shakespeare to Arthur Kessler, have affirmed that

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humans should have the privilege of selecting their own death,

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a voluntary, rational, conscious, conscious ending chosen not by accident

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but by lucid free choice.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I would like to fact check with academic agent

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on Shakespeare endorsing uh suicide exactly. Sure, that's what he

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was up to.

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Speaker 1: But scholar, you know, all he has to do is

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pick like, oh, Shakespeare had somebody commit suicide in one

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of his plays, and he could be leaning on that.

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Speaker 2: Right, which does not definitely does not. Because he portrays

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it does not mean he endorses it.

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Speaker 1: Correct. The Great Stoic tradition particularly emphasizes that persons have

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the prerogative of rational suicide, a humane and dignified termination

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of life, chosen courageously and with deliberate self control. I mean,

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their hero their heroes for doing it.

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Speaker 2: I know, bureaucratic apparatu us experts deciding whether you ever die,

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heroism and courage, I don't know. Somehow it's not all

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meshing for me, you know.

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Speaker 1: Following up Epithetus, the Stoics sought to rid themselves of

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the fetters of the wretched body, and to assert their

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will against kings or thieves who, by controlling men's bodies,

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try to dictate their faith. The Stoics and the Epicureans

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chose light, treasured life. Sorry, they were not in any

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sense naysayers who wished to escape into a realm of nothingness.

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As Epicurus wrote, he is a little man in all

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respects who has many good reasons for quitting life. And

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as Epictetus advised his disciples, weigh upon God. When he

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gives the signal and releases you from this service, then

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you shall depart to him. Nonetheless, the Stoics and the

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Epicureans believe that the final choice was properly their own,

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not that of fate or attributable to a supernatural being.

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Rational person should make the choice with dignity and fortitude. Remember,

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Epictetus wrote, the door is open to part instead of

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staying to moan.

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Speaker 2: So basically, real chads kill themselves. Pete, I don't know

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if you missed that in your training, about how masculine.

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Speaker 1: And you're irrational if you don't agree with that, because

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rational persons should make the choice right.

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Speaker 2: And oh and just in case it wasn't clear, the

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humanist was a you know, secular atheist kind of that

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was that was their whole mission was to sort of

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be a religiously secular atheist yep.

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Speaker 1: Similarly, in recent times, Friedrich Nietzsche deplored the unfree Coward's death,

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that most people trapped into contemptible conditions, trapped in contemptible

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conditions at the wrong time, and deceived by a slave's morality,

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must in door. Instead, he celebrated free death the love

472
00:29:04,839 --> 00:29:08,240
of life. Nietzsch argued, one should deserve a different depth,

473
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:12,799
free conscious, without accident, without ambush.

474
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, So here's the thing that jumps out to me.

475
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:17,640
And this is something I've thought about a lot, just

476
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,240
thinking about what I think of as the planners, the

477
00:29:21,279 --> 00:29:24,920
social planners in the twentieth century. And C. S. Lewis

478
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,599
hits it really well in the Abolition of Man. It's

479
00:29:27,599 --> 00:29:33,640
this whole emphasis on taking control. You know, in the past,

480
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:38,000
the evolution of man just happened to man. But now

481
00:29:38,079 --> 00:29:43,319
mankind will mold itself. Right in the past, we just died.

482
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:47,680
Now we're going to take control of death. Right in

483
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,519
the past, you just had babies. Now we're going to

484
00:29:50,559 --> 00:29:52,119
take control of that. And if we don't want to

485
00:29:52,119 --> 00:29:53,039
have a baby, we'll kill it.

486
00:29:53,119 --> 00:29:53,319
Speaker 1: Right.

487
00:29:53,759 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 2: So to me, this is sort of a regular theme

488
00:29:56,599 --> 00:30:00,319
conscious control. And they'll use words like that, the word

489
00:30:00,359 --> 00:30:05,519
conscious right, conscious control. And of course the Christian and

490
00:30:05,559 --> 00:30:10,079
I don't think it's just Christians view is that uh,

491
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:15,079
you know, uh, there's a there's a form of trying

492
00:30:15,119 --> 00:30:21,720
to control everything that is really really toxic. I'm thinking

493
00:30:21,759 --> 00:30:27,319
of like twelve step type stuff. You know. Uh. The

494
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:30,960
attempt to control things that ultimately really aren't under your

495
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:35,759
control or ought not to be is to make yourself

496
00:30:35,799 --> 00:30:40,920
a little god. And that way lies very very dangerous things. Right.

497
00:30:41,039 --> 00:30:43,720
So anyway, that's that's what this this passage makes me

498
00:30:43,759 --> 00:30:44,119
think of.

499
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 1: Today. Those who contemplate asserting control over suffering and dying

500
00:30:50,359 --> 00:30:54,759
contend that the possibility of rational suicide preserves human kinds

501
00:30:54,839 --> 00:30:59,519
for fragile dignity in the face of brutal circumstances, ironically

502
00:30:59,559 --> 00:31:03,359
prolog by the most modern of medical technology designed to

503
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:08,400
sustain or preserve life. Indeed, they point out that one

504
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:13,160
of humankind's unique in defining attributes is the ability to foresee,

505
00:31:13,359 --> 00:31:17,880
to contemplate, and potentially control our own death. It is

506
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:22,200
this noble quality which sets us apart from all other animals.

507
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 2: There you go, Aristotle, that's what he really meant when

508
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:29,000
he talked about what man is a rational as the

509
00:31:29,079 --> 00:31:32,759
rational animal or whatever. He meant that you can commit suicide.

510
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:34,400
There you go boom.

511
00:31:36,119 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 1: Rather than degenerating helpless helplessly, the ill person can choose

512
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:44,440
the timing, the setting, and circumstances of death. He or

513
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:47,200
she may prepare friends and family for the end, make

514
00:31:47,279 --> 00:31:52,400
reasonable visions for the welfare of others, complete worldly duties,

515
00:31:52,519 --> 00:31:55,880
and take leave of loved ones in a dignified manner.

516
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is just making me think of the whole

517
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:05,640
thing of you know, rather than just sort of submitting

518
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:08,799
to the reality that you know, death comes for us

519
00:32:08,839 --> 00:32:12,920
all and you know, then it comes, your time comes

520
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:15,559
when it comes, and all that stuff. We're gonna We're

521
00:32:15,599 --> 00:32:19,680
going to be the master of reality, right, makes me

522
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:23,559
think a little bit of the trans thing, you know. Yeah,

523
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:26,160
reality dealt me this deck of cards in terms of

524
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:30,440
my biology. But I'm master over that, right, and so

525
00:32:30,599 --> 00:32:33,079
likewise I will be master over my own end.

526
00:32:35,759 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 1: By affirming this uniquely human capacity to mediate and mold death,

527
00:32:40,039 --> 00:32:42,920
we enhance our threatened autonomy in the face of a

528
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:47,160
remorseless fate. What what is I say as the state

529
00:32:47,319 --> 00:32:51,359
is Are they saying, as the state is growing? Suicide

530
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:53,960
is one way to fight against it? But what the

531
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,480
hell is going on here? What does that sentence even mean.

532
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:02,480
Speaker 2: Uh, medium, well, death, we enhance our threatened autonomy in

533
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,319
the face of a remorseless faith. Well, remorseless faith just

534
00:33:05,359 --> 00:33:11,039
means yeah death, and and he's saying we we Our

535
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:15,480
autonomy is threatened. Our autonomy is threatened by the fact

536
00:33:15,519 --> 00:33:16,799
that we die eventually.

537
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 3: Hugh, Well, hold the word let's keep going.

538
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 2: Let's hold that word autonomy, and in our minds, that's

539
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:29,079
going to be very key.

540
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:32,960
Speaker 1: To take the opposite path, as most people do in

541
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:37,799
a mindless submission to the dictates of fate, betrays our

542
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:43,519
highest quality, our capacity for freedom. A death with dignity

543
00:33:43,599 --> 00:33:46,160
is a final proof that we are not merely pawns

544
00:33:46,279 --> 00:33:49,240
to be swept from the board by an unknown hand.

545
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,519
Speaker 2: Okay, well, I know that's striking. Yeah, that's that's like,

546
00:33:54,039 --> 00:33:56,319
that's shaking your fist a god, so to speak.

547
00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:00,519
Speaker 1: Yes, as a courageous assertion of in the pendence and

548
00:34:00,559 --> 00:34:04,160
self control, suicide can serve as an affirmation of our

549
00:34:04,279 --> 00:34:09,280
ultimate liberty, our last infusion of meaning into a formless reality.

550
00:34:10,159 --> 00:34:13,519
Speaker 2: Right. So, this strikes right at the heart of one

551
00:34:13,559 --> 00:34:19,760
of the reactionary critiques of the modern understanding of liberty

552
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:24,199
or freedom. Right, what does it mean to be free.

553
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:30,320
What he argues is to be free is to have

554
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:36,960
autonomy and to have control over as I argued, reality, Yeah, yeah,

555
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:39,480
I'm sorry I missed it. He actually uses the word reality,

556
00:34:40,639 --> 00:34:44,880
our last infusion of meaning into a formless reality. Reality

557
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:48,840
has no meaning, it's random. Right. Remember these are people

558
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:53,599
coming from a materialist perspective, you know, extreme materialist perspective.

559
00:34:54,199 --> 00:34:58,239
Reality has no meaning. We're going to impose meaning on

560
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:03,559
it by taking control, right and expressing our autonomy and

561
00:35:03,599 --> 00:35:06,800
our freedom, which is what we mean by freedom is

562
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:09,000
our autonomy.

563
00:35:10,079 --> 00:35:16,280
Speaker 1: And it's courageous to do so, right? Yeah, all right?

564
00:35:18,159 --> 00:35:21,800
If rational suicide can serve the cause of human dignity,

565
00:35:22,679 --> 00:35:29,280
and I mean, come on, come on, you can't. This

566
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:34,880
is what every materialist does. Yeah, they argue, they argue

567
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:38,119
against God and then they use terms like dignity, which

568
00:35:38,119 --> 00:35:40,440
your supportent. Well what does that mean?

569
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:46,239
Speaker 2: Yeah? Right? Why is? Why is? Why is you committing suicide? Less?

570
00:35:47,159 --> 00:35:49,719
Speaker 1: Formless? We just said formless reality?

571
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:53,599
Speaker 2: Right right? Why is your autonomy, your courageous act of

572
00:35:53,639 --> 00:35:59,679
autonomy less meaningless and formless and pointless then dying naturally?

573
00:36:00,519 --> 00:36:03,920
I don't know why it would be with materialist friars,

574
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:04,679
you know.

575
00:36:05,079 --> 00:36:11,239
Speaker 1: I mean, I can atheists are just so many of

576
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:16,519
them are just so insufferable with this. It's just a

577
00:36:16,599 --> 00:36:21,920
kind of it's like, what was that guy, Yarron Brook? Yeah,

578
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:25,320
I mean he he God doesn't exist, and then he

579
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:29,559
just he jumps right into materialist language, I mean into

580
00:36:29,599 --> 00:36:33,960
he jumps right into metaphysical language, right, and he started

581
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:34,719
It's like.

582
00:36:34,679 --> 00:36:36,960
Speaker 2: Come on, yeah, And by the way, this is part

583
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:40,360
of the reason why. Uh. Perhaps controversially, I don't know,

584
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:43,960
I'm a big fan of Sworn Krekerguard, who really gave

585
00:36:44,039 --> 00:36:48,239
birth to the atheist existentialists, because really, if you read

586
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:50,599
Krekergard and you really get what he's saying, you have

587
00:36:50,639 --> 00:36:55,159
two options. You either embrace Christ basically, you embrace meaning,

588
00:36:55,199 --> 00:36:58,960
you embrace God uh and and are are able to

589
00:36:59,039 --> 00:37:01,719
use words like dignant and have it mean something, have

590
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:06,320
it grounded in something metaphysically, or you stop taking half

591
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:10,440
measures and you realize that, okay, life is just absurd

592
00:37:10,519 --> 00:37:12,559
and I'm not going to pretend anymore that it isn't.

593
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:16,440
And the famous ones are the ones that took that path.

594
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:19,280
But there's actually a lot of Christian existentialists who were

595
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:23,239
influenced by Krekeregarden took the other path of embracing meaning

596
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:30,039
right and completely rejecting the materialism of our age.

597
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:35,280
Speaker 1: I'm going to start that again. If rational suicide can

598
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:39,199
serve the cause of human dignity and autonomy, it should

599
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:43,039
also be recognized that such a death may often represent

600
00:37:43,119 --> 00:37:47,000
a compassionate act of shielding the person's family, children, and

601
00:37:47,079 --> 00:37:53,559
comrades from suffering needless toll, psychological torture, and even economic catastrophe.

602
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:56,400
Speaker 2: Right now, I don't know how this feels here and

603
00:37:56,440 --> 00:38:02,480
what peaches read, but understand what this means. We went

604
00:38:02,599 --> 00:38:06,840
from you are expressing your autonomy as an individual with

605
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,760
control of your life too. You need to do this

606
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:12,599
for the people around you. You need to set an example.

607
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:15,559
You need to let them off the hook in terms

608
00:38:15,599 --> 00:38:18,599
of providing care for you and so on and so forth.

609
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:23,840
What psychological torture. Look, they're going to have to watch

610
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:26,840
you be uncomfortable, and they might feel uncomfortable with that,

611
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:28,920
And boy, that would be tough for them, wouldn't it.

612
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,079
We don't want that. So so what does this mean? Well,

613
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:39,599
it's a pretty short move from that setup to someone

614
00:38:39,599 --> 00:38:43,000
who's not feeling very well getting pressured to sign off

615
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:49,679
on killing themselves right by by doctors, by family, by whoever. Hey,

616
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:53,280
you're you're you've become an inconvenience. You know, you're making

617
00:38:53,519 --> 00:38:56,920
I'm I'm having uncomfortable feelings because you are having pain.

618
00:38:58,079 --> 00:39:01,000
Could you just, you know, sign up for the medically

619
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:05,599
assisted death thing please? Because it's bugging me. You know.

620
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:08,559
So you're in a weakened state because you're sick or whatever,

621
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:12,159
and now you people got people coming at you emotionally

622
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:17,039
manipulating you to sign off on your own death. I

623
00:39:17,039 --> 00:39:19,559
don't know if that's ever happened, but I don't know,

624
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:21,599
it seems like a plausible scenario, you know.

625
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:29,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm gonna go on, okay. By these considerations, dignity, autonomy,

626
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:36,360
and compassion all metaphysical concepts, a rational suicide may be

627
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:40,199
a noble alternative to enduring the excruciating torment of a

628
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:46,320
final illness. After contemplation, mature persons may choose a death

629
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:50,639
with dignity that affirms their ultimate autonomy, and it consequently

630
00:39:50,679 --> 00:39:56,599
softens to blow that fall upon those they leave behind. Thus,

631
00:39:56,639 --> 00:40:00,480
for defenders of rational suicide, as for the ancient stone,

632
00:40:00,679 --> 00:40:04,840
the image of perfect nobility is the rational person lovingly

633
00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:08,360
doing his or her duty to others and meeting death

634
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:11,239
with pride and freedom and courage.

635
00:40:12,119 --> 00:40:15,639
Speaker 2: Wow. I mean they're practically saying, what what did Jesus say?

636
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:20,239
There's no greater love than someone who lays down his

637
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:24,559
life for his friends. Right? This is this is the

638
00:40:24,599 --> 00:40:28,239
teachings of Jesus twisted and coming out through the human

639
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:29,000
humanist here.

640
00:40:29,119 --> 00:40:31,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just a it's a complete inversion of it,

641
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:37,239
right right. Opponents of the that was good, opponents of

642
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:40,320
the whole concept of a right to death, appeal to

643
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:45,360
a wide range of Orthodox, Jewish and Christian dogmas. They

644
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:48,920
draw too, on the organizational strength of the right to

645
00:40:49,039 --> 00:40:53,239
life movement, which portrays euthanasia as one more step towards

646
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:58,960
justifying the elimination of the helpless and the unfit for them.

647
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:02,360
The biblical command outshot not kill applies to oneself as

648
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:06,400
well as others, thus precluding suicide as well as any

649
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:11,519
assistance in suicide. The absolute sanctity of life takes precedence

650
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:16,320
over all other considerations. Life must be prolonged, regardless of

651
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:18,840
the cost and suffering or debasement.

652
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:23,119
Speaker 2: And by the way, notice the arguments here, it's not

653
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:28,320
that hard to slide from what he's saying here. You know,

654
00:41:28,559 --> 00:41:31,199
portraying euthanas is one more step for adjutifying the elimination

655
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:33,880
to help us the unfit. It's not too hard to

656
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:41,679
slide from his arguments to euthanizing people who are mentally handicapped,

657
00:41:42,079 --> 00:41:46,239
down syndrome children things like that, right, because what does

658
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:49,480
suffering mean? Does it mean that you're in pain or

659
00:41:49,519 --> 00:41:51,440
does it mean that you're not able to live a

660
00:41:51,519 --> 00:41:53,159
fully autonomous life.

661
00:41:54,199 --> 00:42:01,440
Speaker 1: Well, he already makes the argument for possible fanticide of

662
00:42:01,679 --> 00:42:08,880
any any sick children by bringing up bringing up economics,

663
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:14,079
by bringing up cost that could be saved. That's just

664
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:16,199
you can slide right into that. It's like, oh, well,

665
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:18,320
I mean, think how much it's going to cost you

666
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:20,519
to raise this sick kid.

667
00:42:21,159 --> 00:42:23,920
Speaker 2: Yep, yeah, all right.

668
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:27,400
Speaker 1: The sanctity of human life does not depend upon its costs,

669
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:31,400
Cardinal O'Connor of New York argues, and since humans are

670
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:34,159
made in the image of God, the act of suicide

671
00:42:34,559 --> 00:42:40,760
necessarily involves the side to usurp God's gift of life

672
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:44,599
would be an act of the gravest hubris. The duty

673
00:42:44,639 --> 00:42:47,119
of a community of faith is to extend its care

674
00:42:47,199 --> 00:42:51,840
to the weakest, sickliest members, not to destroy them. Christians

675
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:54,760
invoke the example of Jesus, our Lord, healed the sick,

676
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:58,480
raised Lazarus from the dead, gave back sanity to the deranged.

677
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:02,880
Malcolm Muggridge has pointed out, but never did he practice

678
00:43:03,079 --> 00:43:06,599
or envisage killing as part of the mercy that held

679
00:43:06,639 --> 00:43:08,039
possession of his heart.

680
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:11,159
Speaker 2: Well, fair play to the author for including that great

681
00:43:11,199 --> 00:43:13,239
Muntgage quote.

682
00:43:14,639 --> 00:43:18,519
Speaker 1: However, the fact is that the Orthodox religious traditions have

683
00:43:18,679 --> 00:43:22,639
often sanctioned killing or even suicide in the service of

684
00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:27,039
some higher goal. For Jews, the mass suicide of that

685
00:43:27,079 --> 00:43:29,880
I can't believe he's going to do this. I can't

686
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:33,280
believe he's going to do this. For Jews, the mass

687
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:37,159
suicide of the Maccabees in defiance of Roman oppression is

688
00:43:37,199 --> 00:43:39,199
now celebrated as a glorious event.

689
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:41,039
Speaker 2: This is a Masada.

690
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:47,039
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, there's a real big difference of being in

691
00:43:47,079 --> 00:43:48,920
battle and knowing you're going to die.

692
00:43:49,559 --> 00:43:52,880
Speaker 2: Then that's just actually, I'm sorry, I might be wrong.

693
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:54,480
The Maccabees, so I think that would be.

694
00:43:54,519 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, right, yeah, the Maccabees would be pre christ.

695
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:03,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, sorry, there's oh wow, there's multiple mass suicides

696
00:44:03,639 --> 00:44:06,760
that have been celebrated in tradition. I didn't know that.

697
00:44:08,039 --> 00:44:12,480
I knew about Masada. I watched the movie, you know. Yeah, anyway,

698
00:44:12,519 --> 00:44:12,679
go on.

699
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:17,559
Speaker 1: For Christians, the other worldliness of the Pauline tradition sometimes

700
00:44:17,599 --> 00:44:22,480
led early converts into an epidemic of suicide. Did it

701
00:44:22,519 --> 00:44:26,039
is he? Is he calling martyrdom suicide?

702
00:44:26,599 --> 00:44:29,840
Speaker 2: Oh? I was thinking he was talking about some sect

703
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:35,000
or something. But yeah, maybe from his point, well keep going, yeah.

704
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:39,400
Speaker 1: Tertillian describes how entire populations of Christian villages would flock

705
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:42,639
to the Roman proconsul, imploring him to grant them the

706
00:44:42,679 --> 00:44:47,599
privilege of martyrdom. Lucian regarded these Christians with scorn. They

707
00:44:47,679 --> 00:44:50,199
desired death and gave themselves up to be slain, an

708
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:55,840
eager anticipation of eternal salvation. Like she Eite martyrs today,

709
00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:58,840
some early Christians sought to be slaughtered by their enemies

710
00:44:59,039 --> 00:45:01,639
as a sure mean of gaining immortality.

711
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:05,280
Speaker 2: You may never have thought of the parallel between the

712
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:10,360
early Church and suicide bombers, but this author is here

713
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:10,679
for you.

714
00:45:15,639 --> 00:45:20,880
Speaker 1: Oh man, all right. Contemporary Christians can dismiss these early

715
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:25,519
tendencies as aberrations and argue that dogmatic justification of some

716
00:45:25,599 --> 00:45:29,440
forms of killing, capital punishment, and just wars, for example,

717
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:35,760
are misinterpretations of Jesus's commands. Jesus certainly did not describe

718
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:39,199
martyrdom or suicide as a path to salvation, but just

719
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:42,639
as surely he never told humankind to cling to life

720
00:45:42,679 --> 00:45:44,320
at all possible costs.

721
00:45:46,079 --> 00:45:46,360
Speaker 2: So that.

722
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:49,199
Speaker 1: Now we're appealing.

723
00:45:51,559 --> 00:45:55,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Jesus didn't talk about hot dogs, so

724
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:57,239
let me give you my opinion on hot dogs.

725
00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:03,079
Speaker 1: Right he probably he was probably kosher, So yeah, there

726
00:46:03,079 --> 00:46:07,000
you go. His two fundamental commandments to love God and

727
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:10,599
to love one neighbor one's neighbor as one's self, do

728
00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:16,639
not in themselves logically condemned suicide. In fact, a death

729
00:46:16,679 --> 00:46:20,199
with dignity, if undertaken in a spirit of compassion for others,

730
00:46:20,519 --> 00:46:24,519
could be considered as an ultimate fulfillment of these injunctions.

731
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:30,480
Jesus's poignant acceptance of a crucifixion he could have easily

732
00:46:30,599 --> 00:46:36,320
escaped terrify testifies to his conscious willingness to sacrifice his

733
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:38,239
own life for a higher goal.

734
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:42,599
Speaker 2: This is this is the meme, right, the guy saying, uh, yeah,

735
00:46:42,639 --> 00:46:44,800
I don't believe in the Bible, but maybe the arguments

736
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:49,000
will work on you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's gonna give

737
00:46:49,039 --> 00:46:50,280
us a little theology here.

738
00:46:50,519 --> 00:46:54,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're gonna let's let's see how deep he gets

739
00:46:54,039 --> 00:46:59,920
into materiology here, you know, let's I mean, this is

740
00:47:00,039 --> 00:47:05,239
some steriological frigging gymnastics here.

741
00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:11,000
Speaker 2: This thing about it can be compassionate, he says, undertaking

742
00:47:11,039 --> 00:47:13,599
a spirit of compassion for others. What was the flip

743
00:47:13,639 --> 00:47:16,480
side of that, right, Uh, it's that maybe if you

744
00:47:16,639 --> 00:47:19,679
don't do it, if you don't kill yourself when you're

745
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:22,920
a burden on your family or whatever, maybe you're being selfish,

746
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:27,360
you know, and you're not being compassionate. That's just saying

747
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:28,880
what he said the other way, right.

748
00:47:30,599 --> 00:47:34,079
Speaker 1: Regardless of religion, some philosophers, such as Emmanuel Kant and

749
00:47:34,119 --> 00:47:38,519
Albert Schweitzer, have been firm opponents of suicide. Kant knew

750
00:47:38,519 --> 00:47:40,800
of the stoic concern that a noble death for a

751
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:44,000
wise man was to walk out of this life with

752
00:47:44,079 --> 00:47:48,199
an undisturbed mind whenever he liked, as out of a

753
00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:53,079
smoke filled room. Nonetheless, Kant argued, man cannot deprive himself

754
00:47:53,119 --> 00:47:56,599
of his personhood so long as one speaks of duties. Thus,

755
00:47:56,599 --> 00:48:00,880
so long as he lives on grounds that are far

756
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:06,440
from clear. Kant thought suicide obliterates morality and degrades humanity

757
00:48:06,559 --> 00:48:09,840
since it eliminates the subject and morality.

758
00:48:11,159 --> 00:48:13,280
Speaker 2: I don't know Kunt well enough to comment on that one.

759
00:48:13,519 --> 00:48:18,280
Speaker 1: Yeah. Albert schw Albert Schweitzer, the great proponent of reverence

760
00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:22,559
for life as a supreme ethical principle, believe that suicide

761
00:48:22,599 --> 00:48:25,320
ignores the melody of the will to live, which compels

762
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:28,519
us to face the mystery the value the high trust

763
00:48:28,599 --> 00:48:32,519
committed to us in life. Schweitzer did not condemn those

764
00:48:32,519 --> 00:48:35,360
who relinquished their lives, but felt that we do pity

765
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:38,159
them for having ceased to be in possession of themselves.

766
00:48:39,519 --> 00:48:42,719
In truth, Schweitzer did not apply his principle of reverence

767
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:45,920
for life very strictly and under all circumstances, since he

768
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:48,920
did not hesitate to eat animal flesh and believe that

769
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:53,840
some wars were justified. Oh my god, does anybody no

770
00:48:54,039 --> 00:48:57,639
familiar with Schweitzer's life? I mean, this was a man

771
00:48:57,679 --> 00:49:03,239
who sacrifice was probably the words to describe his life.

772
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:07,760
Speaker 2: Hmm. Yeah, Well maybe he didn't know the meat is

773
00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:11,519
murder by the smiths, and then he would be more consistent,

774
00:49:11,639 --> 00:49:11,840
you know.

775
00:49:14,159 --> 00:49:20,119
Speaker 1: Oh, man, current Opponents of Death with Dignity believe that

776
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:24,400
society must maintain the taboo against suicide because the right

777
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:27,360
to choose one's own death can quickly become mixed up

778
00:49:27,559 --> 00:49:32,320
with the right to choose someone else's, or suicides be legalized.

779
00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:35,920
These people foresee a quick descent into other forms of

780
00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:40,239
euthanasia and unreasonable expansion of powers of physicians and an

781
00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:44,400
increase in state control over life. Gee, I wonder why

782
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:54,079
they would think that slippery slope is undefeated. Yes, absolutely Indeed,

783
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:59,360
during the debate over Initiative one, nineteen Washingtonians made clear

784
00:49:59,559 --> 00:50:03,719
their concern over these possibilities. Many Americans approve of death

785
00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:06,599
with Dignity for themselves, but fear taking the grave step

786
00:50:06,639 --> 00:50:10,159
of giving physicians or the state lethal power over others.

787
00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:13,360
Speaker 2: So this paragraph made me again think of Abolition of

788
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:19,079
Man by C. S. Lewis, where he says that first

789
00:50:19,199 --> 00:50:24,079
we have power over nature, the power of man over nature,

790
00:50:24,119 --> 00:50:27,000
and then we have the power of man over man. Right,

791
00:50:28,519 --> 00:50:30,960
And that's what I'm hearing is he talks about this,

792
00:50:31,639 --> 00:50:38,960
that the power of taking my own life becomes or

793
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:41,079
the you know, that autonomous choice to take my own

794
00:50:41,119 --> 00:50:43,679
life becomes a choice to have maybe somebody help me

795
00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:47,800
take my life right and then soon enough, slippery slope, right,

796
00:50:48,679 --> 00:50:52,280
soon enough, other people are just experts, are deciding that

797
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:55,599
you should be killed because the socialized medical system doesn't

798
00:50:55,599 --> 00:50:57,920
want to pay for your end of life costs.

799
00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:06,599
Speaker 1: Right, oh, all right. When we consider euthanasia as a

800
00:51:06,599 --> 00:51:10,760
public policy, we must directly confront these issues. In California

801
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:13,480
and the other states to follow. The clash over current

802
00:51:13,519 --> 00:51:16,880
medical and legal arrangements for death will undoubtedly raise such

803
00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:22,119
stark problems as these should the right to die extend

804
00:51:22,119 --> 00:51:24,960
to those who have already lost the mental capacity to

805
00:51:25,039 --> 00:51:30,599
choose for themselves. Opponents of rational suicide believe that allowing

806
00:51:30,679 --> 00:51:34,079
such an option would open the door to eliminating everyone

807
00:51:34,559 --> 00:51:40,360
deemed unfit. To avoid reviving the nightmare of Nazism, proponents

808
00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:46,199
of euthanasia must clearly affirm the principle of autonomy. The conscience, free,

809
00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:51,800
and consenting person must make the original choice of terminating life.

810
00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:55,159
Living wills, and the protections afforded by Initiative one to

811
00:51:55,239 --> 00:51:59,920
nineteen must guarantee that the patient voluntarily and intentionally requested

812
00:52:00,079 --> 00:52:04,920
assistance and death before an incapacitating illness or occurred. Such

813
00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:10,000
a provision would bar the door to experiments. Such a

814
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:13,039
provision would bar the door to experiments in eugenics, and

815
00:52:13,119 --> 00:52:16,559
would in fact impost stricter restrictions on the right to

816
00:52:16,679 --> 00:52:19,719
die that now exist in many states.

817
00:52:20,559 --> 00:52:25,400
Speaker 2: Right, and so the reference to Nazism, I'm shoot I

818
00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:28,440
kmon and Jerusalem. Who wrote that? Hannah Errant? Yeah? So

819
00:52:28,599 --> 00:52:37,119
Hannah Errant writes that the staff that were used to

820
00:52:37,159 --> 00:52:41,559
euthanize people who were viewed as not having a life

821
00:52:41,599 --> 00:52:47,360
forth living, which included I guess very elderly sick people,

822
00:52:48,559 --> 00:52:53,199
mentally handicapped people and so forth, were then used in

823
00:52:53,239 --> 00:52:55,480
the Holocaust. That was her claim. I don't know the

824
00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:58,039
truth of it, but that's the that's the background for

825
00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:01,039
what he's talking about here, is saying, well, we can

826
00:53:01,079 --> 00:53:03,760
protect against that because you're going to sign off on it,

827
00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:06,880
and we're not going to just do this to you. Right,

828
00:53:07,119 --> 00:53:12,280
It's going to be an exercise of your autonomy, all right.

829
00:53:12,599 --> 00:53:16,760
Speaker 1: Next point, Should persons afflicted with serious conditions but who

830
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:19,519
are not near death be allowed to end their lives?

831
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:23,719
Proponents contend that people who are still able to choose,

832
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:27,639
but who are physically helpless, such as paraplegics and those

833
00:53:27,679 --> 00:53:30,639
who are diagnosed on being on the brink of an

834
00:53:30,679 --> 00:53:35,440
inexorable decline, such as Alzheimer patients, should be allowed to

835
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:39,719
consider suicide as a viable option. Opponents contend that such

836
00:53:39,719 --> 00:53:42,440
a concession would open the door for the mentally unstable,

837
00:53:42,639 --> 00:53:46,360
the temporarily depressed, or the immature to end their lives prematurely.

838
00:53:47,280 --> 00:53:49,320
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, so that's the big problem with this, right,

839
00:53:49,719 --> 00:53:55,199
Charles Haywood talks about there's this fight against anything that's

840
00:53:55,239 --> 00:53:59,320
not a constantly chosen bond. Right, So, if you don't

841
00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:01,280
feel like being married today, you ought to be able

842
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:03,119
to just walk away from the marriage, even though you

843
00:54:03,159 --> 00:54:06,079
might regret it tomorrow. Right. Well, the big problem with

844
00:54:06,119 --> 00:54:10,079
this particular issue is that if you feel like killing

845
00:54:10,119 --> 00:54:12,719
yourself today and then you change your mind tomorrow, if

846
00:54:12,760 --> 00:54:16,239
you actually killed yourself, it's too late, right, There's no

847
00:54:16,519 --> 00:54:20,239
tape backsies once you are euthanized.

848
00:54:21,039 --> 00:54:24,000
Speaker 1: Well. I read this sentence and I think of some

849
00:54:24,079 --> 00:54:28,599
of the reports I've read coming out of Canada. There

850
00:54:28,679 --> 00:54:36,039
was one person who chose assisted suicide because they believe

851
00:54:36,159 --> 00:54:39,320
that after their illness they were going to be homeless.

852
00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:46,559
Mm So, I mean, what do how far is this

853
00:54:46,679 --> 00:54:48,719
going to go, yes.

854
00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:55,039
Speaker 2: This was not an immigrant. Otherwise, otherwise they probably wouldn't

855
00:54:55,039 --> 00:54:58,400
have been concerned about being Yeah well, sorry, dark joke.

856
00:54:58,840 --> 00:55:02,119
Speaker 1: Yeah well, probably be putting up in a five star

857
00:55:02,199 --> 00:55:04,239
or four star hotel. What is it? How they do?

858
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:05,280
Speaker 2: Ye?

859
00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:10,840
Speaker 1: Clearly, people who pass through a period of clinical depression

860
00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:13,920
often entertain the idea of suicide, but reject it when

861
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:17,760
they are properly treated. Similarly, a large number of American

862
00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:21,480
teenagers roughly one in twelve high school students grades nine

863
00:55:21,519 --> 00:55:24,559
to twelve, say that they have tried to commit suicide

864
00:55:24,599 --> 00:55:28,320
at least once. In fact, the rate of actual suicide

865
00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:31,360
is much lower than for the elderly and those with

866
00:55:31,519 --> 00:55:37,119
degenerative diseases. Nonetheless, the fact remains that temporarily dejected people,

867
00:55:37,239 --> 00:55:40,440
for example, teenagers who have separated from someone they love,

868
00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:46,519
or even revengeful persons, do commit suicide, which it will

869
00:55:46,559 --> 00:55:48,880
be impossible to prevent all of the While it will

870
00:55:48,880 --> 00:55:51,800
be impossible to prevent all of these deaths, and argument

871
00:55:51,840 --> 00:55:53,880
for the rights to die with dignity does not mean

872
00:55:53,920 --> 00:55:57,280
the society would make it easy for the deranged, irrational

873
00:55:57,320 --> 00:56:01,159
person to end life capriciously. No, it may not make

874
00:56:01,199 --> 00:56:04,079
it easier in their mind, it would make it more

875
00:56:04,480 --> 00:56:05,800
That makes it more acceptable.

876
00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:10,719
Speaker 2: Ah, that's a really good point. It changes the framing. Yes, right, yeah,

877
00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:12,920
you feel like you're a you know, you're you're an

878
00:56:13,639 --> 00:56:15,960
angsty teenager. You feel like you're just a burden on

879
00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:20,159
everyone around you. And we have people who are it's

880
00:56:20,199 --> 00:56:24,000
all legal and fine and everything and compassionate to relieve

881
00:56:24,119 --> 00:56:27,679
the burden on the people around you, right by by

882
00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:28,719
making this choice.

883
00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:34,840
Speaker 1: Yeah and ye, well this famous person shows to commit suicide.

884
00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:38,480
Speaker 2: And right, yeah, yeah, and everyone celebrated it, right, and

885
00:56:38,519 --> 00:56:40,480
you know the usual circus right.

886
00:56:41,559 --> 00:56:44,599
Speaker 1: To guard against this. Public policy should provide the only

887
00:56:44,679 --> 00:56:49,119
mature mentally should provide that only mature mentally competent adults

888
00:56:49,119 --> 00:56:52,159
with acceptable reasons are allowed to make the decision, and

889
00:56:52,199 --> 00:56:55,760
then only after a certain waiting period. Before a person's

890
00:56:55,760 --> 00:56:58,880
request for assistance and dying is approved by a public body,

891
00:56:59,159 --> 00:57:02,280
it would be wise to have psychologists or psychiatrists consult

892
00:57:02,360 --> 00:57:04,960
with the patient and explore all the options open to

893
00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:11,280
that person. While such an approach would screen out some disturbed, impetuous, harassed,

894
00:57:11,400 --> 00:57:15,360
or temporarily dejected dejected patients, it would allow people who

895
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:19,880
rationally anticipate a life of misery to choose death with dignity.

896
00:57:20,280 --> 00:57:22,400
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, what I can't help thinking up, Pete is

897
00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:27,239
the stories I've been hearing from like D transitioners, who

898
00:57:27,559 --> 00:57:29,679
you know, there's all there's all this, Oh yeah, we

899
00:57:29,760 --> 00:57:33,679
really before we do make any permanent changes, we really

900
00:57:33,719 --> 00:57:36,000
make sure that this is what they really want. And

901
00:57:36,039 --> 00:57:38,880
then the D transitioners say, oh yeah, they talk to

902
00:57:38,920 --> 00:57:41,239
me like twice and then they signed off on it. Right,

903
00:57:41,760 --> 00:57:44,639
So that's real, that's the reality. This is a this

904
00:57:44,719 --> 00:57:46,320
is a pipe dream here.

905
00:57:46,840 --> 00:57:51,559
Speaker 1: Well, I mean to let it to allow someone to

906
00:57:51,639 --> 00:57:57,719
transition sex, especially young person is just basically another form

907
00:57:57,880 --> 00:58:01,920
of population control. And that's what this is. It's just

908
00:58:02,159 --> 00:58:08,800
popular because they're generally they're whatever drugs are taking or

909
00:58:08,840 --> 00:58:12,119
whatever surgery they have is going to take away their

910
00:58:12,159 --> 00:58:13,199
ability to appropreate.

911
00:58:15,800 --> 00:58:18,320
Speaker 2: And then also in that first sentence there it talks

912
00:58:18,320 --> 00:58:24,440
about acceptable reasons only adults with acceptable reasons. Well, who

913
00:58:24,480 --> 00:58:27,920
decides what the acceptable reasons are without some kind of

914
00:58:27,960 --> 00:58:35,519
metaphysical grounding, right right? Acceptable reasons? Because it's become very

915
00:58:35,559 --> 00:58:39,960
expensive because of the screwed up medical system, the state's

916
00:58:40,000 --> 00:58:44,400
screwed up medical system. It's become very expensive to keep living,

917
00:58:44,840 --> 00:58:47,440
and so it's an acceptable reason to say, well, it's

918
00:58:47,480 --> 00:58:50,599
just too expensive. Is that an acceptable reason that it

919
00:58:50,599 --> 00:58:52,480
will be acceptable reason to the welfare state?

920
00:58:53,199 --> 00:58:57,719
Speaker 1: Yes, right, especially in Canada, which is a huge welfare state.

921
00:58:58,199 --> 00:58:58,519
Speaker 2: Right.

922
00:59:00,039 --> 00:59:03,840
Speaker 1: Other issues to consider. Should physicians be in charge of

923
00:59:03,880 --> 00:59:07,440
the actual death. Their oath requires them to prolong life.

924
00:59:07,480 --> 00:59:10,440
If they shorten it, this sends an ambiguous message to

925
00:59:10,480 --> 00:59:14,360
the society. Thus, in general, physicians should not be directly

926
00:59:14,360 --> 00:59:17,840
involved in ending life, certainly less so than they are

927
00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:22,599
now in the termination of feeding or indeed in capital punishment.

928
00:59:22,960 --> 00:59:27,920
Kavorkian has suggested that doctors should not use his suicide machine. Instead,

929
00:59:28,360 --> 00:59:31,920
consistent with the principles of autonomy and dignity, the patients

930
00:59:31,960 --> 00:59:38,400
themselves or trusted relatives must take the final action. Kavorkian

931
00:59:38,559 --> 00:59:42,800
envisioned suicide clinics administered by paramedical workers who would be

932
00:59:42,920 --> 00:59:45,159
salaried so that they would be there would be no

933
00:59:45,239 --> 00:59:46,679
profit motive involved.

934
00:59:47,840 --> 00:59:50,920
Speaker 2: So we already are familiar with the idea of abortion clinics,

935
00:59:50,920 --> 00:59:53,960
but just seeing the phrase suicide clinics gave me a shell.

936
00:59:54,639 --> 00:59:57,800
Looking on this article. Down the corner, you know, next

937
00:59:57,800 --> 01:00:00,920
to the quickie shop or whatever you can walk in

938
01:00:01,000 --> 01:00:06,400
and have someone set you out for a suicide. Huh

939
01:00:07,760 --> 01:00:10,400
what a vision? What a vision of our future? What

940
01:00:10,480 --> 01:00:13,920
an inspiring vision of where our civilization could go here?

941
01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:18,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, more more protesters to be called, you know, Jesus

942
01:00:18,679 --> 01:00:25,800
freaks and right, what if doctors make a mistake? Inevitably,

943
01:00:26,079 --> 01:00:29,559
doctors may miscalculate their diagnosis, or a miracle makes than

944
01:00:29,639 --> 01:00:33,960
the life of a hopeful patient. Miracles and quotes there Conceivably,

945
01:00:34,079 --> 01:00:37,679
a new treatment could result in unexpected cures. Although the

946
01:00:37,760 --> 01:00:40,440
lag between the discovery of a beneficial therapy and its

947
01:00:40,480 --> 01:00:44,840
application is seldom less than a year, This is unquestionably

948
01:00:44,880 --> 01:00:47,039
one of the great risks of medical practice, and it

949
01:00:47,159 --> 01:00:50,719
suggests again that the role of the physician should be minimized.

950
01:00:51,000 --> 01:00:53,599
The doctor should be an expert counselor, but not the

951
01:00:53,599 --> 01:00:58,280
person who controls or executes the decision. Now, it's I

952
01:00:58,440 --> 01:01:01,480
love that it's a decision. The burden of the choice

953
01:01:01,559 --> 01:01:04,480
must be borne by the patient. The exercise of an

954
01:01:04,519 --> 01:01:08,519
individual's autonomy should be that person's sole responsibility.

955
01:01:09,679 --> 01:01:15,480
Speaker 2: Yeah. So I was asking Dave, the distributist at the conference,

956
01:01:16,159 --> 01:01:20,679
what does he think is the core issue subverting the church?

957
01:01:20,760 --> 01:01:23,800
You know, and I suggested to galitarianism. He brought up autonomy,

958
01:01:25,440 --> 01:01:29,880
holding up autonomy is sort of an ultimate moral value. Uh,

959
01:01:30,480 --> 01:01:32,920
turns out to it seems to seems like there's some

960
01:01:32,960 --> 01:01:36,079
problems with that. It's it sounds pretty nice from a

961
01:01:36,079 --> 01:01:38,079
certain point of view. Well, I you know, I like

962
01:01:38,159 --> 01:01:39,480
to be able to do what I want to do

963
01:01:39,559 --> 01:01:42,519
and stuff, you know. But somehow when we take autonomy

964
01:01:42,559 --> 01:01:44,960
and really run with it, we end up with some

965
01:01:45,039 --> 01:01:48,159
frightening results, some of which we're seeing in some of

966
01:01:48,159 --> 01:01:50,400
which this article is suggesting we could take further.

967
01:01:50,960 --> 01:01:57,880
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, yeah, I was, I was going to go

968
01:01:57,920 --> 01:02:02,039
off on a rabbit trail. But okay, for another episode.

969
01:02:02,840 --> 01:02:06,039
Speaker 1: If rational suicide were freely and broadly allowed, would the

970
01:02:06,119 --> 01:02:09,719
term well, would the elderly, terminally ill, or even seriously

971
01:02:09,760 --> 01:02:13,480
ill choose to it's simply to spare their families, lives

972
01:02:13,480 --> 01:02:18,199
and pocketbooks. Possibly like the terminally ill and pre modern

973
01:02:18,280 --> 01:02:21,519
Eskimo society, patients might well act out of consideration and

974
01:02:21,559 --> 01:02:25,559
compassion for their families. Such self sacrifice should not be

975
01:02:25,639 --> 01:02:30,360
condemned as necessarily evil, but it must not be undertaken

976
01:02:30,480 --> 01:02:34,800
lightly as in other cases. A frank, open and loving

977
01:02:34,840 --> 01:02:38,719
consultation between patient and family should precede any action. I

978
01:02:38,880 --> 01:02:42,400
like how the such it's first of all, it's a

979
01:02:42,440 --> 01:02:48,039
self sacrifice for their for the family, and it should

980
01:02:48,079 --> 01:02:52,639
not be called evil, right, under no circumstances should it

981
01:02:52,679 --> 01:02:55,559
be called evil. But we're not going to take it lightly.

982
01:02:56,079 --> 01:02:58,039
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah? I mean, how many times does it use

983
01:02:58,079 --> 01:03:00,800
the word compassion in this article? Blues the count?

984
01:03:03,920 --> 01:03:10,239
Speaker 1: It's or well's, uh yeah, or well's what is that?

985
01:03:10,280 --> 01:03:13,039
The tyranny of language or the tyranny of l I

986
01:03:13,039 --> 01:03:15,559
can't remember what it was? Actually did an episode on

987
01:03:15,679 --> 01:03:19,320
I can't remember. I'm doing great maybe maybe maybe I'm

988
01:03:19,400 --> 01:03:19,800
up for this?

989
01:03:20,400 --> 01:03:21,480
Speaker 2: All right?

990
01:03:22,880 --> 01:03:26,119
Speaker 1: Is there a grisly possibility that someone, even a person's

991
01:03:26,199 --> 01:03:29,599
own family, could push that person into suicide against his

992
01:03:29,760 --> 01:03:33,760
or her own will? Is it possible that a murder

993
01:03:33,800 --> 01:03:37,119
could be hidden a suicide? This could occur as indeed

994
01:03:37,119 --> 01:03:41,599
it already does. Oh, there's a libertarian argument when you say, well,

995
01:03:41,639 --> 01:03:45,840
what would you do in Anne Capistan about this? Well,

996
01:03:45,880 --> 01:03:49,639
that already happens now, Well, yeah, it already happens. Now

997
01:03:49,800 --> 01:03:52,599
it's probably gonna be a bigger friggin issue if there's

998
01:03:53,280 --> 01:03:57,000
if there's no authority around or you know, seeming authority.

999
01:03:58,480 --> 01:04:01,559
But I and off on a tangent there. I'm sorry,

1000
01:04:03,320 --> 01:04:05,360
is it possible that murder could be in as this could?

1001
01:04:05,559 --> 01:04:09,159
As indeed it already does. The Dutch experience, however, indicates

1002
01:04:09,159 --> 01:04:14,840
that the legitimation of rational suicide does not increase this possibility.

1003
01:04:15,320 --> 01:04:18,840
With the safeguards proposed, even an initiative when nineteen, it

1004
01:04:18,880 --> 01:04:22,360
seems reasonable to suppose that the chances of murder masters

1005
01:04:22,360 --> 01:04:24,960
suicide would actually be decreased.

1006
01:04:25,719 --> 01:04:28,320
Speaker 2: So I want to speak to his first point here

1007
01:04:28,320 --> 01:04:34,159
in this paragraph, where he says, could someone, even a

1008
01:04:34,159 --> 01:04:36,880
person's own family, push a person into suicide against his

1009
01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:39,679
or her will? I think it's safe to share this

1010
01:04:39,920 --> 01:04:44,239
my father's past now, and he never named anyone, but

1011
01:04:44,360 --> 01:04:48,159
he did share with me as a pastor that in

1012
01:04:48,199 --> 01:04:51,639
his pastoral work he had learned that women were very

1013
01:04:51,679 --> 01:05:00,440
often pressured into abortions by boyfriends, by family, et cetera. Later,

1014
01:05:01,119 --> 01:05:04,119
as should be none more widely, but it's not maybe

1015
01:05:04,320 --> 01:05:09,599
very well known. Very often, after an abortion, it turns

1016
01:05:09,639 --> 01:05:12,639
out that the woman realizes she has had a traumatic experience,

1017
01:05:13,400 --> 01:05:20,239
she's having nightmares, et cetera. Right, and then she starts

1018
01:05:20,280 --> 01:05:24,480
remembering that she had a lot of pressure on her

1019
01:05:25,119 --> 01:05:30,280
to make that autonomous decision. Right, So to me, it

1020
01:05:30,440 --> 01:05:34,079
seems quite obvious that in the kind of regime being

1021
01:05:34,079 --> 01:05:39,960
proposed here, people would be pressured again in a weakened state, right,

1022
01:05:41,039 --> 01:05:44,719
be pressured to sign off on their own They're on

1023
01:05:44,800 --> 01:05:48,800
their own death under pressure from people who can't wait

1024
01:05:48,840 --> 01:05:54,719
to inherit the money after they die, et cetera. Many reasons, right.

1025
01:05:55,519 --> 01:06:00,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you could see that. It's ill. I

1026
01:06:00,239 --> 01:06:04,320
lived in South Florida for a very long time, and

1027
01:06:04,360 --> 01:06:07,719
I'm sure people are familiar with the level of wealth

1028
01:06:08,079 --> 01:06:11,440
there is in South Florida, and I knew forty and

1029
01:06:11,559 --> 01:06:16,039
forty five year old men even approaching fifty who were

1030
01:06:16,039 --> 01:06:21,360
basically living doing menial labor, just waiting for their waiting

1031
01:06:21,360 --> 01:06:25,320
for their parents to die so they can inherit the money. Yeah,

1032
01:06:25,760 --> 01:06:26,519
So it's.

1033
01:06:26,639 --> 01:06:28,840
Speaker 2: They weren't doing anything with their lives, that's weird.

1034
01:06:29,039 --> 01:06:32,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're just waiting for the They're waiting for the

1035
01:06:32,360 --> 01:06:33,320
inheritance to come.

1036
01:06:35,239 --> 01:06:37,480
Speaker 2: Yeah. Boy, wouldn't it be nice to the chemical sooner? Right?

1037
01:06:40,440 --> 01:06:44,639
Speaker 1: Doesn't the hospice movement offer a better alternative than rational suicide?

1038
01:06:45,199 --> 01:06:48,440
It certainly provides an important alternative and a human mode

1039
01:06:48,440 --> 01:06:53,000
of coping with death under circumstances of relatively little pain. However,

1040
01:06:53,239 --> 01:06:55,960
whether it is better to perish slowly but nune by

1041
01:06:56,000 --> 01:07:00,400
morphine morphine cocktails, or to be allowed to choose the mode, manner,

1042
01:07:00,400 --> 01:07:03,239
and timing of one's death, is, in the opinion of

1043
01:07:03,280 --> 01:07:06,559
this author, a matter best left to individual discretion.

1044
01:07:07,920 --> 01:07:11,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, just just to drive the point home here, it's

1045
01:07:11,920 --> 01:07:14,239
I feel like there's a bait and switch right. On

1046
01:07:14,280 --> 01:07:16,880
the one hand, Hey, it's all about individual autonomy, it's

1047
01:07:16,880 --> 01:07:20,679
all about your free, conscious choice. On the other hand, yeah,

1048
01:07:20,679 --> 01:07:24,800
you're probably gonna get pressured by family, by a bureaucratic structure,

1049
01:07:25,519 --> 01:07:29,800
by people at a suicide clinic, by a socialized health

1050
01:07:29,840 --> 01:07:33,239
system that views you as a cost that it can't afford,

1051
01:07:33,320 --> 01:07:36,480
because of course it's it's always perpetually out of money.

1052
01:07:38,440 --> 01:07:41,159
So you know, what is really the nature of this

1053
01:07:41,239 --> 01:07:45,360
individual autonomous choice in real life, in reality, not in

1054
01:07:45,440 --> 01:07:52,039
some imaginary way. Things that you know that imagine imaginary

1055
01:07:52,039 --> 01:07:54,719
world that isn't the way the world really is.

1056
01:07:55,719 --> 01:08:02,719
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, all right, let's close this out last paragraph.

1057
01:08:02,760 --> 01:08:07,000
The obstacles to a public policy of euthanasia are admittedly formidable,

1058
01:08:07,440 --> 01:08:10,679
but they are not insurmountable. A failure to decide these

1059
01:08:10,679 --> 01:08:14,519
issues because of personal or social anguish over contemplating the

1060
01:08:14,599 --> 01:08:19,640
unthinkable will continue to condemn many people to humiliating debility,

1061
01:08:20,039 --> 01:08:25,039
pointless suffering, and perhaps meaningless final exits. If I thought,

1062
01:08:25,840 --> 01:08:31,600
didn't he say up here that life is it's a

1063
01:08:31,640 --> 01:08:32,600
formless reality.

1064
01:08:33,000 --> 01:08:34,159
Speaker 2: Formless reality.

1065
01:08:34,119 --> 01:08:41,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, they always want to have it both ways. In contrast,

1066
01:08:41,399 --> 01:08:46,479
sensible provisions for rational suicide, governed by the principles of autonomy, dignity,

1067
01:08:46,680 --> 01:08:51,920
and compassion, offer humankind the possibility of ending a life

1068
01:08:52,159 --> 01:08:56,279
that was so acceptable that it required no further deeds

1069
01:08:56,560 --> 01:08:57,159
or days.

1070
01:08:58,960 --> 01:09:03,079
Speaker 2: Right, So what's the problem is? So I think this

1071
01:09:03,119 --> 01:09:06,399
brings it squarely to this issue of autonomy, because that

1072
01:09:06,600 --> 01:09:10,640
is the I think the driver through all of this, Right,

1073
01:09:11,319 --> 01:09:15,680
And what is the problem with autonomy? I mean, there's

1074
01:09:15,680 --> 01:09:17,159
a lot of ways to come with this, but but

1075
01:09:17,399 --> 01:09:20,039
just speaking from sort of a right wing traditionalist point

1076
01:09:20,079 --> 01:09:23,119
of view for a moment, I think the problem is

1077
01:09:23,159 --> 01:09:31,039
that it is picturing a disconnected individual who's not in

1078
01:09:31,079 --> 01:09:34,439
connection with other people, not bonded with other people. They

1079
01:09:34,520 --> 01:09:36,920
just have this choice they need they make. You know,

1080
01:09:38,720 --> 01:09:44,560
it also does not situate someone's life and the value

1081
01:09:44,560 --> 01:09:49,119
of their life in a larger order. Right, Whereas what

1082
01:09:49,159 --> 01:09:51,279
we what we see in Burke, what we see in

1083
01:09:51,319 --> 01:09:53,960
the scriptures, what we see in all tradition, is that

1084
01:09:54,760 --> 01:10:01,319
you're not this atom, atomistic individual. You are part of

1085
01:10:01,319 --> 01:10:05,960
a chain connecting your ancestors to your children. You're part

1086
01:10:06,000 --> 01:10:09,199
of a chain of being in terms of there are

1087
01:10:09,239 --> 01:10:11,680
people who are looking to you as an authority, and

1088
01:10:11,680 --> 01:10:15,000
there are people that you are looking to as an authority. Right. So,

1089
01:10:15,840 --> 01:10:19,520
rather than picturing people as this isolated atom, autonomous atom

1090
01:10:19,600 --> 01:10:23,600
making their decisions, we should see ourselves as what we are,

1091
01:10:23,720 --> 01:10:26,399
what we know emotionally we are, which is in a

1092
01:10:26,399 --> 01:10:32,199
web of connections, of connections to other people, meaningful connections, right.

1093
01:10:33,239 --> 01:10:35,640
And I think it's from that perspective, something like that

1094
01:10:35,680 --> 01:10:42,399
perspective that you push back against this huge emphasism individual autonomous,

1095
01:10:42,439 --> 01:10:47,560
conscious choice. It is that you're not on your own

1096
01:10:48,520 --> 01:10:55,319
and your life does matter, and those bonds with other

1097
01:10:55,359 --> 01:10:59,800
people are meaningful and real. You can feel them, and

1098
01:11:00,479 --> 01:11:02,279
you know, as a Christian, I would go a little

1099
01:11:02,319 --> 01:11:06,159
further and say that you have a bond to God,

1100
01:11:06,359 --> 01:11:11,000
who created you in his image, loves you and wants

1101
01:11:11,039 --> 01:11:18,560
you to treat yourself in the way that a person

1102
01:11:18,640 --> 01:11:21,079
made in the image of God should be treated. I'm

1103
01:11:21,079 --> 01:11:24,800
reminded of my dad's great line, who's a pastor. My

1104
01:11:24,880 --> 01:11:29,119
dad's great line that if some people love their neighbors

1105
01:11:29,119 --> 01:11:32,600
as themselves, their neighbors would be in mortal danger, you know,

1106
01:11:35,239 --> 01:11:38,840
So I think it is. It is. I think we

1107
01:11:38,880 --> 01:11:42,359
all recognize that we ought not to treat other people

1108
01:11:42,399 --> 01:11:46,720
as trash, but we also ought not to treat ourselves

1109
01:11:46,760 --> 01:11:50,079
as trash. It keeps on talking to the article about

1110
01:11:50,119 --> 01:11:52,520
the kind of message you're sending to the people around you,

1111
01:11:53,239 --> 01:11:56,439
right and having compassion stuff like that. Well, what kind

1112
01:11:56,479 --> 01:12:01,680
of message do you send to your depressed teenager or whatever,

1113
01:12:01,800 --> 01:12:04,479
your angsty teenager when you decide to do the youth

1114
01:12:04,960 --> 01:12:05,800
euthanasia option?

1115
01:12:06,600 --> 01:12:06,800
Speaker 1: Right?

1116
01:12:09,520 --> 01:12:11,760
Speaker 2: So those are some It.

1117
01:12:13,399 --> 01:12:16,680
Speaker 1: Like everything else, it becomes mimetic. And you know that's

1118
01:12:16,680 --> 01:12:20,479
what happened when it's how everything is always sold. You know,

1119
01:12:20,560 --> 01:12:23,840
abortion was sold as oh, you know this is for people,

1120
01:12:24,840 --> 01:12:28,119
great and it you know, incess things like that, and

1121
01:12:28,159 --> 01:12:31,079
then it's just it just becomes acceptable over time.

1122
01:12:31,319 --> 01:12:35,359
Speaker 2: That's birth control, right. Yeah, And as I keep arguing,

1123
01:12:35,399 --> 01:12:38,640
I think that the most inevitably obvious consequence, which I'm

1124
01:12:38,640 --> 01:12:41,720
sure is being played out in Canada right now of

1125
01:12:41,880 --> 01:12:46,239
putting this in place, is that in the face of

1126
01:12:46,359 --> 01:12:51,159
the bureaucratic machine, bureaucratic techno machine, right, we get viewed

1127
01:12:51,159 --> 01:12:55,880
as a cost. If we're not being productive, if we're

1128
01:12:55,920 --> 01:12:58,760
not contributing to the machine, we're a draw on the machine.

1129
01:12:59,479 --> 01:13:03,199
The ration whole thing to do is to cut costs. Right.

1130
01:13:04,039 --> 01:13:09,640
That's not how a moral human society deals with people

1131
01:13:09,720 --> 01:13:16,279
in need, right, that aren't a net contributor at the moment, right, Uh,

1132
01:13:16,840 --> 01:13:19,760
we honor the honor them as humans with dignity and

1133
01:13:19,760 --> 01:13:23,079
made in the image of God. That's that's normal and healthy.

1134
01:13:23,560 --> 01:13:26,960
But that's not how the modern bureaucratic machine views humans.

1135
01:13:28,119 --> 01:13:30,600
You're either you're either contributing to the machine or you're not.

1136
01:13:30,840 --> 01:13:34,279
If you're not, why are we keeping you around? You're

1137
01:13:34,279 --> 01:13:35,079
taking up space?

1138
01:13:36,279 --> 01:13:44,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, and it and they choose their their allies.

1139
01:13:45,920 --> 01:13:50,479
You know, there are people that are a net negative

1140
01:13:50,560 --> 01:13:55,520
on the system that are more valuable to them than

1141
01:13:55,600 --> 01:13:57,159
somebody who's actually contributing.

1142
01:13:57,880 --> 01:14:01,239
Speaker 2: Yeah. Who decides who's a net contributor and who's in

1143
01:14:01,279 --> 01:14:04,800
that drain? Right? Yeah, it may have a lot to

1144
01:14:04,840 --> 01:14:07,960
do with whether they consider you friend or enemy politically.

1145
01:14:08,000 --> 01:14:10,880
Speaker 1: Right, So once once it gets to that, I mean,

1146
01:14:10,960 --> 01:14:16,399
would honestly what people should ask you know is if

1147
01:14:16,439 --> 01:14:22,359
you are at all on the right or not on

1148
01:14:22,439 --> 01:14:28,239
board with what this regime it promotes and promotes as

1149
01:14:28,239 --> 01:14:31,439
a religion. At this point, would you want them to

1150
01:14:31,520 --> 01:14:37,319
have the power to know for their apparatics in the

1151
01:14:38,279 --> 01:14:40,840
you know, in the medical industry, to be able to

1152
01:14:40,920 --> 01:14:43,479
make decisions like this for you. Yeah.

1153
01:14:44,840 --> 01:14:49,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's it's truly frightening. Well, thanks, thanks P

1154
01:14:49,560 --> 01:14:50,960
for taking my suggestion.

1155
01:14:50,760 --> 01:14:55,600
Speaker 1: To this was great. At any time, you have an

1156
01:14:55,600 --> 01:14:58,039
open invitation to come on anytime and talk about anything.

1157
01:14:58,840 --> 01:15:04,159
May promote your channel anything you want, and we'll leave.

1158
01:15:04,600 --> 01:15:07,159
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, in light of what we discussed today, I

1159
01:15:07,199 --> 01:15:10,359
guess I'll promote I've sort of got three shows. I'll

1160
01:15:10,399 --> 01:15:14,119
promote one that we don't do as often, which is

1161
01:15:14,159 --> 01:15:18,279
the show I do with my wife. I'm called RADLB online,

1162
01:15:18,279 --> 01:15:21,760
and so my wife is called missus RADLB and on

1163
01:15:21,880 --> 01:15:27,840
our show, which is mostly her. She's someone who worked

1164
01:15:27,840 --> 01:15:33,600
as a Christian biblically based therapist up until two weeks

1165
01:15:33,640 --> 01:15:38,039
before our first child was born, and she's just generally

1166
01:15:38,439 --> 01:15:41,039
I don't know how to put it a wise person,

1167
01:15:41,439 --> 01:15:47,039
and so we discuss topics like courtship, sex, and society.

1168
01:15:48,800 --> 01:15:51,039
We just talked about honor thy mother and thy father,

1169
01:15:51,720 --> 01:15:57,840
especially when they're hard to respect. And I recommend it

1170
01:15:57,840 --> 01:16:00,239
to you. I've had a number of people who find,

1171
01:16:00,520 --> 01:16:03,359
you know, personal issues to be something they really want

1172
01:16:03,399 --> 01:16:08,600
to think about. They watch one of those Missus rad

1173
01:16:08,600 --> 01:16:11,439
Lib shows and then a week later they say, I

1174
01:16:11,560 --> 01:16:14,399
just binged it all. I just watched everything you guys

1175
01:16:14,399 --> 01:16:16,640
have talked about and it was so helpful, you know.

1176
01:16:17,159 --> 01:16:21,079
So I'd recommend that to you. And it's a show

1177
01:16:21,159 --> 01:16:23,640
that comes with something that you mostly don't get in

1178
01:16:23,680 --> 01:16:29,119
our parasocial world, which is that my wife hangs out

1179
01:16:29,119 --> 01:16:32,800
in a channel on Discord run by our friend Luke Lamba.

1180
01:16:33,920 --> 01:16:36,760
It's called the Missus Radlib Channel, and so we bring

1181
01:16:36,840 --> 01:16:40,079
up some really heavy issues and there's a great community

1182
01:16:40,119 --> 01:16:42,840
that we make sure stays nice and positive and constructive

1183
01:16:43,279 --> 01:16:45,119
where you can come and you can talk about the

1184
01:16:45,159 --> 01:16:48,479
stuff that we raise or whatever else. And my wife

1185
01:16:48,600 --> 01:16:51,920
is just available. So there's something you don't usually get

1186
01:16:51,920 --> 01:16:52,439
with the show.

1187
01:16:53,600 --> 01:16:56,600
Speaker 1: Awesome, Yeah, any other.

1188
01:16:57,319 --> 01:16:59,760
Speaker 2: No, No, I think that's that's the one to push

1189
01:17:00,039 --> 01:17:00,680
for this topic.

1190
01:17:01,039 --> 01:17:05,039
Speaker 1: This topic awesome. I really appreciate Steven. Every time I

1191
01:17:05,119 --> 01:17:08,000
talk to you and it feels like I'm talking to

1192
01:17:08,000 --> 01:17:08,600
an old friend.

1193
01:17:09,159 --> 01:17:10,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you, Pet.

1194
01:17:10,560 --> 01:17:10,880
Speaker 1: Thanks