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Speaker 2: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 2: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 2: written about them. Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK every
Speaker 2: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 2: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 2: journalist and author.
Speaker 5: Dan Zufanski, Good Evening. In nineteen sixty eight, young girls
Speaker 5: went missing in California and New York. Massive searches started
Speaker 5: and soon bodies began to turn up. This is a
Speaker 5: story of Rodney Alcala, the charming, good looking photographer that
Speaker 5: was in New York University studying under Roman Polanski and
Speaker 5: even once had won on the popular TV game show
Speaker 5: Dating Game, but now wanted for rape, torture and murder
Speaker 5: of several young girls. He would make the girl suffer
Speaker 5: until they passed out, then rape them, and when they
Speaker 5: came to, he would beat them again before killing them.
Speaker 7: Alan R.
Speaker 5: Warren, best selling true crime author and co host of
Speaker 5: House of Mystery, takes you through each step of the
Speaker 5: story in shocking detail, including details from the trials and
Speaker 5: the appeals that have been going on for over twenty years.
Speaker 5: While Alkala sits on Death Row, the book to a
Speaker 5: feature in the seating is The Killing Game, The True
Speaker 5: story of Rodney Alcala the game show Serial Killer, with
Speaker 5: my special guest Alan R. Warren, journalist and author and
Speaker 5: podcaster Alan o'warren. Welcome to the program, and thank you
Speaker 5: very much for agreeing in this interview.
Speaker 7: Ah it's my pleasure. It's always good to be here
Speaker 7: and good to talk to you again.
Speaker 5: Thank you very much for this interview. Gratulations on the
Speaker 5: Killing Game, a very very interesting, fascinating killer and an amazing,
Speaker 5: very very interesting case. Let's get right to a little
Speaker 5: bit about Rodney Alcola Alcala and tell us a little
Speaker 5: bit about his life. People know about him being born
Speaker 5: in the US and having go to Mexico. So tell
Speaker 5: us a little bit about how his early life and
Speaker 5: then what was characterized about his family life and what
Speaker 5: people knew about his early life.
Speaker 7: Well, it seems like he had a pretty normal upbringing,
Speaker 7: the middle class sort of upbringing, and he was in
Speaker 7: San Antonio, Texas, and he was one of four children,
Speaker 7: I believe, and they were from Mexico and had a
Speaker 7: pretty good life. He was a good student, no problems.
Speaker 7: In nineteen fifty one, his grandmother, who lived with him,
Speaker 7: became kind of sick. She became ill and it wasn't
Speaker 7: going to be a good outcome. So they decided that
Speaker 7: they would move back to Mexico so that she could
Speaker 7: be with her family and live out her days there.
Speaker 7: So the family up and went and moved back to
Speaker 7: Mexico and lived there for a while. The strange thing
Speaker 7: that happened there was after about a year, his father
Speaker 7: left and moved back to the States, to California, and
Speaker 7: left the family behind, you know, the kids and the
Speaker 7: mother and grandmother. And it wasn't until the grandmother died
Speaker 7: before the mother and kids moved back to the States
Speaker 7: as well. But when they did move back, they did
Speaker 7: not move back with the father, right.
Speaker 5: You say that. In nineteen sixty talk about a normal,
Speaker 5: fairly normal upbringing, regardless of the split. Back in Los Angeles,
Speaker 5: He's graduated top of his class and he was very popular,
Speaker 5: especially with the ladies, and always had a lot of dates.
Speaker 5: In nineteen sixty one, he joined the army and he
Speaker 5: worked as a clerk, and his brother was an inspiration
Speaker 5: was he was at at West Point. But one year in,
Speaker 5: you say that something happened that really seemed to affect him,
Speaker 5: especially when they looked at this incident later on what
Speaker 5: happened while he was in the army and then what
Speaker 5: did he do as a result.
Speaker 7: Well, when he was working there, he was working as
Speaker 7: a clerk. Wanted to be a paratrooper. About a year
Speaker 7: in his father died, and his father died suddenly. It
Speaker 7: was a shock, and so he had to come back
Speaker 7: for the funeral. So he went back for the service.
Speaker 7: He attended the service, and the whole family did, including
Speaker 7: the new wife, and everything seemed to be fine, like
Speaker 7: there were you know, there was the death. Of course
Speaker 7: it was sad, but everyone got along and there wasn't
Speaker 7: an issue. After the service, he went back to North
Speaker 7: Carolina and returned to his job. And it was a
Speaker 7: little bit later, it was really only about three four months.
Speaker 7: His mother was at home. She was cooking dinner for
Speaker 7: one night, and all of a sudden showed up at
Speaker 7: the door and she was like, well, what are you
Speaker 7: doing here here in the army in North Carolina, And
Speaker 7: he said, no, I've had it. I left, and she goes, well,
Speaker 7: did you get permission, liked, how did you leave? And
Speaker 7: he said, no, I just I just left. So she
Speaker 7: got really upset. She knew that would be considered a
Speaker 7: wall and they would be wanting him right, you can't
Speaker 7: just do that, so she talked him into turning himself in.
Speaker 7: So it was a few days later he turned himself in,
Speaker 7: and so then they decided that they would give him
Speaker 7: an analysis and just and check him out in the
Speaker 7: hospital and see how he was or see what was
Speaker 7: going on. His last person that was in charge of
Speaker 7: him said that he wasn't really doing his job since
Speaker 7: he came back from the funeral. He was distant, he
Speaker 7: wasn't paying attention, He just wasn't doing He used to
Speaker 7: be so efficient and such a good worker, and now
Speaker 7: all of a sudden he was just kind of just
Speaker 7: being there but not doing any of his job. So
Speaker 7: they actually determined that he had a type of a
Speaker 7: nervous breakdown, and back then they diagnosed him with anti
Speaker 7: social personality disorder and they give him a discharge on
Speaker 7: medical grounds. So that's kind of was the first big change,
Speaker 7: or you might say bump in the road.
Speaker 5: M you talk about too. This is five years later,
Speaker 5: and there's no incidents, but you say the first and
Speaker 5: we're talking about a doozy of an incident here. This
Speaker 5: is September twenty fifth, nineteen sixty eight, and the case
Speaker 5: of Tally Shapiro. And with this incredible story begins to
Speaker 5: unfold about a motorist that spots a man with a
Speaker 5: young girl. And this man's name is Donald Haynes. What
Speaker 5: does he see and why does he become suspicious and
Speaker 5: what does he do as a result.
Speaker 7: That's just well, you know that, yeah, and that was
Speaker 7: quite unique because you know, in nineteen sixty eight people
Speaker 7: were much more trusting, you know. But he noticed in
Speaker 7: what it was in West Hollywood, and the girl was
Speaker 7: walking down the boulevard and a man in a car
Speaker 7: pulled up and was talking to her and following her
Speaker 7: for her ways, and then eventually she got into the
Speaker 7: car and then they drove away, and they drove to
Speaker 7: his apartment. And he thought that was a weird He
Speaker 7: thought it was a really weird set up. So something
Speaker 7: told him to follow them, so he did. He followed them,
Speaker 7: and he saw them going to the endto the apartment,
Speaker 7: and so he got a little bit nervous and he
Speaker 7: went to a payphone, which we had them back then,
Speaker 7: and he actually picked it up and called the cops
Speaker 7: and said, this is really suspicious. I don't feel right
Speaker 7: about this. So the cops decided to follow up, and
Speaker 7: they came out to Rodney's apartment, and that was kind
Speaker 7: of the first incident that really happened. That was kind
Speaker 7: of weird, you know. So the cops came up and
Speaker 7: knocked on the door and knocked on the door, and
Speaker 7: eventually he answered just through the door, saying what who
Speaker 7: is it? What do you want? And and the cop said, well,
Speaker 7: we're doing a check up. You know, would have heard
Speaker 7: something and we're doing a safety check here, and so
Speaker 7: eventually he opened the door and that's when it all
Speaker 7: sort of They saw right away, they saw the girl
Speaker 7: laying on between the kitchen and the front room, right
Speaker 7: in the middle part, laying on the floor, and she
Speaker 7: was all covered in blood, and she wasn't moving. She
Speaker 7: wasn't there was no no motion coming from her. So
Speaker 7: they initially pushed him in the front door and started talking,
Speaker 7: and all of a sudden, the girl coughed and choked
Speaker 7: kind of, she started coughing. So the two car ran
Speaker 7: right away to her and started attending to her and
Speaker 7: to her she was still alive, so he grabbed a
Speaker 7: towel and you know, it was just all taking care
Speaker 7: of her. But at the same time what had happened
Speaker 7: was then Rodney ran out the back and disappeared.
Speaker 5: You say too that it was miraculous. And they took
Speaker 5: young Tally to the hospital and she stayed in thea
Speaker 5: coma for quite a while. So it was touch and go.
Speaker 5: And if he would have made the wrong decision to say,
Speaker 5: chase after Rodney Alcala, then she would have died. So
Speaker 5: that's was the prognosis. Now from this, what do police
Speaker 5: do in terms of they find the ID for Rodney Alcola,
Speaker 5: So what do they do as a result, and what
Speaker 5: does Rodney do as a result.
Speaker 7: Well, you know, so they knew they were dealing, they
Speaker 7: found the ID, they knew who the person was, so
Speaker 7: they started a search of course, and chatting with the parents,
Speaker 7: the neighbors, and at the time there were all sorts
Speaker 7: of rumors that he had probably ran back to Mexico,
Speaker 7: and somebody even said he probably went to Canada, which
Speaker 7: was kind of our Europe, which was kind of not
Speaker 7: really really the thing. I think the biggest worry was
Speaker 7: that he would go back to you know, Mexico where
Speaker 7: he could kind of hide out any new people. So
Speaker 7: they led to the FBI, and the FBI started doing
Speaker 7: a search as well, and he ended up on the
Speaker 7: FBI Most Wanted list in nineteen sixty nine, and he
Speaker 7: was all missing for a couple of years before anybody
Speaker 7: found him. Now, just so you know what he had
Speaker 7: done is he went to New Hampshire under a different name,
Speaker 7: John Berger, and he got a job at an all
Speaker 7: girls summer camp. Yeah, so you got this child a
Speaker 7: rapist because Kelly was eight, So you got this rapist.
Speaker 7: He's the at the all girls summer camp teaching now
Speaker 7: being at he was a counselor, so he was knighting
Speaker 7: them like unbelievable. And that school was dealing with from
Speaker 7: ages eight to fifteen, you know, and he got away
Speaker 7: with that for two years he was there. And how
Speaker 7: he got caught with Yeah, oh sorry, I was just
Speaker 7: going to say. Two girls that were at the camp
Speaker 7: walked to the post office just to mail a letter.
Speaker 7: And in the post office back then, they used to
Speaker 7: have the most wanted fixtures up and they saw him
Speaker 7: when they were waiting and they said, that just looks
Speaker 7: like counselor John Berger. So they told the dean, and
Speaker 7: the dean came and looked, and then he called the FBI,
Speaker 7: and the FBI came out to question mister Alcala, and
Speaker 7: of course they found out it was so they extra
Speaker 7: got him back to California.
Speaker 5: You also say that right away there presents a problem
Speaker 5: because they were looking for Rodney Alcola with Tally, and
Speaker 5: with that her parents had moved her. They were so traumatized,
Speaker 5: and of course she was as well that they moved
Speaker 5: her to Mexico, and there was indication to the prosecutor
Speaker 5: that they wouldn't be coming back for that prosecution. So
Speaker 5: in nineteen seventy one, when they got this incredible break
Speaker 5: with the two girls recognizing them off that post office,
Speaker 5: FBI wanted list. It created a problem right away, didn't
Speaker 5: it for that process?
Speaker 7: Yeah, you know, because they knew right away they had
Speaker 7: no witnesses, They didn't have the victim, they had no
Speaker 7: witnesses to testify, so just they had nothing. We all
Speaker 7: knew he did it. He knew he did it, everybody did.
Speaker 7: It was just one of those situations. Well, what in
Speaker 7: court we can't do anything here. We have very little
Speaker 7: to go on. We have the witness that saw him
Speaker 7: taking her in there, we saw that, we have the
Speaker 7: cops witnessing that she was raped and attacked in the hospital.
Speaker 7: So but it was all that's all secondary, it's not
Speaker 7: they had no primary anything, anybody there that could say,
Speaker 7: you know, anything. So eventually all they did was they
Speaker 7: give him and he settled for a something like giving
Speaker 7: giving to minors, you know, giving a bad influence. I
Speaker 7: think it was that had a special name for it.
Speaker 7: And so he got I think three years, and he
Speaker 7: spent one year in jail, then went out in probation
Speaker 7: contributing to miners.
Speaker 5: I got it correct, you hear. What he did get
Speaker 5: was one year to life with an indeterminate sentence. But
Speaker 5: he was paroled amazingly, as you write, thirty four months
Speaker 5: he was paroled out of that one year to life sentence,
Speaker 5: and you write that that's all. The detectives involved were
Speaker 5: again distraught that given the circumstances of Tally her attack,
Speaker 5: her rape, her kidnapping, and that she almost died, that
Speaker 5: he would get the one year to life, but also
Speaker 5: that the parole board would ignore that and give him
Speaker 5: parole in less than the three years.
Speaker 7: Yeah, the whole thing was pretty pretty soft. He really
Speaker 7: got nothing for it. He got a slap on the wrist.
Speaker 5: Yeah, certainly now you write that. Once he's free, he's
Speaker 5: again living with his mom. Who you know, he's living
Speaker 5: with his mother. He gets a job on the very
Speaker 5: first day as a photographer, you know, for a first
Speaker 5: day out of prison.
Speaker 7: Here.
Speaker 5: So and then you talk about October thirteenth, Huntington Beach
Speaker 5: and another incident where he comes into contact with police
Speaker 5: Julie Johnson and again, amazingly a testament to how well
Speaker 5: and charming and respectable, incredible this guy is. Tell us
Speaker 5: a little bit about this, just this incident with Julie
Speaker 5: Johnson as thirteen years old and this marijuana and the
Speaker 5: police officer.
Speaker 7: Yeah, you know that was a real strange one. He
Speaker 7: seemed to Yeah, he got he was real charming because
Speaker 7: to get a job first day out of prison, you
Speaker 7: know what I mean? He was just had this way
Speaker 7: about him. People liked him and they didn't even check
Speaker 7: on the references. But he was at a shopping mall,
Speaker 7: hunting and Beach, and that's when he pulled up on
Speaker 7: Julie Johnson and started talking to her, basically enticed her
Speaker 7: into going for a ride with him. You know, that
Speaker 7: talked about school, and then he started saying, well, you know,
Speaker 7: I have some great things at home I could show you.
Speaker 7: I have posters and I had some you know, really
Speaker 7: cool things, and he takes pictures and he does all
Speaker 7: this stuff. So, you know, she got in. They had
Speaker 7: a conversation and he told her too. It's one thing
Speaker 7: that's kind of unique. He came up with the name
Speaker 7: John Ronald, So he had a totally different name again
Speaker 7: at this part, which I'm not exactly sure. So he
Speaker 7: that to me shows that he was sort of planning
Speaker 7: this right away. He already had a name. He sort
Speaker 7: of had an idea, and so, you know, so he
Speaker 7: thinks her to the apartment and they're talking. He takes
Speaker 7: some of her pictures, and then she sort of got
Speaker 7: a little bit frightened with him, and and so but
Speaker 7: he basically later we found out it was kind of
Speaker 7: a mix up. Later we found out that he was
Speaker 7: in there and he told her to shut up, and
Speaker 7: he got really forceful with her, and that's sort of
Speaker 7: that how that happened. They went up to the to
Speaker 7: a beach a bluff, the bluffs they call it. It's
Speaker 7: kind of a high up outside of the main part
Speaker 7: of Huntington Beach. And and they he took out a
Speaker 7: joint and smoked some marijuana, and apparently she did too,
Speaker 7: and he was taking pictures and he was kind of
Speaker 7: and he started to get sexual with her and French
Speaker 7: guesser and assault her and all that. But who caught
Speaker 7: them actually at that time was a park ranger who
Speaker 7: was down on the beach saw them up there, and
Speaker 7: I guess there was a lot of kids the issues,
Speaker 7: you know, going on up there. So the park ranger
Speaker 7: decided he would go up there and check out and
Speaker 7: see what they were doing. And he could smell pot
Speaker 7: as he got up there too, and so he so
Speaker 7: he went right up to them and and surprised them.
Speaker 7: And the worst part about this is Julie was actually
Speaker 7: saying right from the beginning that he was trying to
Speaker 7: to attack her and rape her and do all this stuff.
Speaker 7: And al Keala turned around and said that no, that
Speaker 7: she was she was being friendly and she offered the pot,
Speaker 7: and there the ranger cuffed al Kala and took them
Speaker 7: both back to the to the office their their main station.
Speaker 7: But eventually they believed him more than her. And I
Speaker 7: think that was, as some of the park rangers said,
Speaker 7: was because what was going on up there a lot
Speaker 7: was a lot of cross institution. There's a lot of
Speaker 7: young girls up there, and they were offering to do
Speaker 7: things with older guys for money and different things, bought
Speaker 7: stuff like that. So that was kind of a that
Speaker 7: was a bizarre thing that happened, even though they were
Speaker 7: caught up there, Like, I don't know if that would
Speaker 7: happen today.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yes, you write that it was seen as a
Speaker 5: parole violation nonetheless, and he was returned for another two
Speaker 5: and a half years to prison. In nineteen seventy seven,
Speaker 5: he was paroled again immediately got a job as a
Speaker 5: typesetter at the La Times. And at this time, he write,
Speaker 5: he was taking photos at weddings and he was a
Speaker 5: sex offender. Nobody he was a registered sex offender. Nobody
Speaker 5: ever checked exactly and this one and you write too
Speaker 5: that he was trusted enough from his parole officer at
Speaker 5: that time to take a trip to New York July thirteenth,
Speaker 5: seventy seven. July seventy seven, and there was a woman
Speaker 5: named Ellen Jane Hover, twenty three years old, that went
Speaker 5: missing during that trip. And we'll talk about that as
Speaker 5: time goes on. And in Ellen Jane Hoover, which was
Speaker 5: interesting too, is that police found a date book. And
Speaker 5: in that date book what did they find in terms
Speaker 5: of incriminating evidence against Rodney Alkala? What was written in
Speaker 5: that date book that gave them pause for concern?
Speaker 7: Well, one thing, one thing to also notice about Ellen
Speaker 7: Hover was she was the goddaughter of Dean Martin and
Speaker 7: she was also her father owned at Cyril's nightclub in Hollywood,
Speaker 7: and there ended up being one hundred thousand dollars rewards,
Speaker 7: So she was closely tied to to everyone. And and
Speaker 7: and I also want to go back. You know when
Speaker 7: you say la times as a typesetter, do you realize
Speaker 7: that how quick he was able to get jobs with
Speaker 7: these these places and not have any references or checks bade? Yeah,
Speaker 7: you know, like I think that's that's that's a really
Speaker 7: pivotal thing because he got away with so many things
Speaker 7: because of his personality. So yeah, And and in the
Speaker 7: in the book, I believe the biggest thing was that
Speaker 7: she had set up a date with a photographer named
Speaker 7: John Burder, and and it was listed I think it
Speaker 7: was for July fifteenth, and so, so she had an
Speaker 7: appointment with John Burder, the photographer, who was Rodney L. Kellis,
Speaker 7: you know, one of his names that he used when
Speaker 7: he was a New Hampshires. So that kind of gave
Speaker 7: a way right away who they were going to go
Speaker 7: after or who who likely had the interaction with her.
Speaker 5: You talk about too that eleven months after this, after
Speaker 5: who she disappears, her bodies has found and Ellen's bodies
Speaker 5: found and at the same time police are getting a
Speaker 5: call from a woman that says, look at I was
Speaker 5: posing for a photos from a guy named Rodney Alcala
Speaker 5: in the same spot you found this woman.
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, you know. And it's kind of one of
Speaker 7: those things that later they found out, do you know
Speaker 7: that they you know, his parole officer let him go
Speaker 7: to New York the first time within a month of
Speaker 7: getting out on a parole. So looking back at it,
Speaker 7: we realized he was taking several trips to New York.
Speaker 7: And when he went to New York, he didn't attack
Speaker 7: the same types of girl that he attacked in California. California,
Speaker 7: they were all eight thirteen, fifteen young girls. These ones
Speaker 7: in New York were twenty three thirty five. They were
Speaker 7: all much older, and there might be a reason for
Speaker 7: that in his mind, but we can't say for sure.
Speaker 5: Now we have other victims, Jill Barcom eighteen years old,
Speaker 5: and again interestingly, the lead detective on that is Philip
Speaker 5: Van Natter of OJ Simpson's fame. So just very interesting
Speaker 5: all the names, famous names dropped into this story. Then
Speaker 5: you talk about a Georgia Wexted she was, and tell
Speaker 5: us and tell our audience what kind of characterized what
Speaker 5: was the signature the thing that he didn't have to
Speaker 5: do that he did do with these victims. What was
Speaker 5: the thing that police found and were horror even more
Speaker 5: than typically with the crime scenes. What was his signature?
Speaker 7: Well, it seemed for some reason as it got on,
Speaker 7: he was he would torture them, So you know, he's
Speaker 7: not only kidnapped someone and forcibly rape them. He beats
Speaker 7: them and portures them and chokes them until they pass out,
Speaker 7: and then they come too, and he does it again.
Speaker 7: And he would do this as many times as it
Speaker 7: took until they died. So that's why I included the
Speaker 7: medical reports at the ends of each girls, because I
Speaker 7: wanted people to realize that in the medical reports they
Speaker 7: actually mentioned how she was still alive while all this
Speaker 7: went on. And he would burn them, he would cut them,
Speaker 7: he would beat them, he would do all of these
Speaker 7: things while they were because he wanted them to feel
Speaker 7: the pain. And this would go on and on. Then
Speaker 7: then once they did die, he started getting really rather brazen.
Speaker 7: He started putting the bodies in positions and in places
Speaker 7: that would get a lot of attention, like it crossed
Speaker 7: from Marlon Brando's house and that little bush, and you know,
Speaker 7: he would place the body in a position so that
Speaker 7: usually the private parts would be facing whoever would find them,
Speaker 7: and quite often he would have their hands and fingers
Speaker 7: pointing at their private parts, so that that would be
Speaker 7: the first thing you would find, the first thing you
Speaker 7: would see. You could open your door, then that's what
Speaker 7: you would see. So he had a display in mind,
Speaker 7: he had something he wanted to show people, and it
Speaker 7: got more and more aggressive, and more and more, how
Speaker 7: you put it, he just got more elaborate and detailed
Speaker 7: on how he wanted to make them suffer and to
Speaker 7: let make sure that everybody saw it.
Speaker 5: Now you talk about with the break that comes in
Speaker 5: this case here, uh, and and again it's a very
Speaker 5: complicated case because there is a sighting by somebody that's
Speaker 5: reluctant to come forward, this forestry worker, Dana Krappa, But
Speaker 5: tell us about this what she again to just kind
Speaker 5: of fast forward and sort of summarize, But what what
Speaker 5: she does do? What does she see one night with
Speaker 5: the dats and a young girl? What does what does
Speaker 5: she see? And unfortunately what does she do in reaction?
Speaker 7: Yeah, this was this was a little bit later, I
Speaker 7: think it was around seventy nine by then. Yeah, this
Speaker 7: Dana Crappa was a you know, a you know, one
Speaker 7: of the guards, you know, what do you call them? Fire?
Speaker 7: Fire agents, forestry agents. And she was on her way
Speaker 7: up up to work to the station, and on the
Speaker 7: gravel road that you take to get up there, she
Speaker 7: noticed the same type of vehicle as she owned, parked
Speaker 7: on the side of the road. And she noticed it
Speaker 7: because the road was only so wide, so you'd have
Speaker 7: to slow down to go around the car because there
Speaker 7: wasn't much room. And as she slowed down to go around,
Speaker 7: she noticed Rodney Alkella. She didn't know who he was,
Speaker 7: but she noticed the guy and with a young girl,
Speaker 7: you know, maybe a ten or twelve year old girl.
Speaker 7: In her eyes, it was a young girl, and they
Speaker 7: were standing on the side of the vehicle. And as
Speaker 7: she drove by, she looked in her rear view marriage
Speaker 7: and she noticed that Alkella the man was staring at her,
Speaker 7: and she said, it give her the creeps, give her
Speaker 7: a shiver down her spine. So that's that was the
Speaker 7: first encounter, and she went to the forest sage station
Speaker 7: and went about her job and her life and didn't
Speaker 7: say a word. And then I believe it was two
Speaker 7: days later or she was doing the same trip again,
Speaker 7: and this time she'd seen the same vehicle, but only Rodney,
Speaker 7: and this time she saw mud and dirt all over
Speaker 7: him and what looked like could be blood, but you know,
Speaker 7: even that she couldn't be sure about. So she saw
Speaker 7: him the second time that way, and again went on
Speaker 7: about her work in life, and again didn't report it.
Speaker 7: So then later we find out that she privately went
Speaker 7: back to the area and to check out the trail
Speaker 7: kind of what they were they were going on off
Speaker 7: the side of the road, and it's there that she
Speaker 7: said she saw some remains scared her, She got back
Speaker 7: into her truck and went back to work again, said nothing.
Speaker 7: And then she was out there another time with another
Speaker 7: forestry ranger doing some work, and this forest ranger actually
Speaker 7: took some old bone and threw it at her and
Speaker 7: freaked her out, and she screamed, and the other ranger
Speaker 7: said he thought it was just a dead animal and
Speaker 7: it was a joke. And then she went again like
Speaker 7: this is it's kind of crazy when you're when you
Speaker 7: asked me why, I have no idea. She went several
Speaker 7: times and confirmed there was remains or body parts there,
Speaker 7: and she saw them there and saw him there alone,
Speaker 7: and she did nothing.
Speaker 5: Now, this story can't get any more interesting and frustrating
Speaker 5: and irritating for those that might be listening. On June
Speaker 5: twenty sixth, detective Art draws, and this is the guy
Speaker 5: that he got a call from Donald Haynes. And if
Speaker 5: we remember Donald Haynes, he's the guy that had the
Speaker 5: good instinct to be able to follow Alcala and then
Speaker 5: have that police officer Camacho bang on the door and
Speaker 5: order him to open that door, likely saving that well,
Speaker 5: most likely saving that young girl's life, Tory's life. Now
Speaker 5: what happens here is that this Donald Haynes, he was
Speaker 5: looking at the composite sketch that was created and he
Speaker 5: thought it looked like Alkala. Now, so he calls detective
Speaker 5: Art Draws, and so draws looks at some mugshots and
Speaker 5: it's a really very dramatic scene in this book. What
Speaker 5: exactly does this detective draws? What happens to him after
Speaker 5: he looks at this smugshot and has a conversation with
Speaker 5: Donald Haynes. What incredibly happens?
Speaker 7: You know? If that is that crazy? You know? So
Speaker 7: he's long day, tired, it gets home and just talks
Speaker 7: talking to Donald Haynes, and he's looking at the mugshots,
Speaker 7: and so he flips on his TV and what comes
Speaker 7: on is in the background is the dating game and
Speaker 7: who's on it but an al Calla. I mean, I
Speaker 7: don't know, is that just a coincidence? You know, I
Speaker 7: can't I can't even say, you know, he here's the
Speaker 7: name al Calla, you know, looks up at the TV
Speaker 7: and there he is. You know, you couldn't ask for more.
Speaker 7: So that drove him. Of course. The next day he
Speaker 7: went right to Chuck Barris's studio, which is the was
Speaker 7: the maker of the of the Dating Game and quite
Speaker 7: a few shows back then, and he got a copy
Speaker 7: of the episode from them, and it actually had been
Speaker 7: a rebeat. He was live in September seventy eight and
Speaker 7: this was in seventy nine, so he got a repeat
Speaker 7: of the show. So you couldn't ask for a better,
Speaker 7: better better accidents.
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Speaker 5: Yeah, now that incredible against the odds. Coincidence, as you say,
Speaker 5: that gets him to go look and look at the
Speaker 5: performance and you provide the dialogue in the book as
Speaker 5: well from the dating game conversation that he has and
Speaker 5: he wins a date and is very odd behavior. And
Speaker 5: you have one of the actors that also talks about
Speaker 5: meeting him and finding him very unnerving. We'll say on
Speaker 5: July fifth, nineteen seventy nine, Robin Someumso's bodies found. This
Speaker 5: is a character that will play a more important role
Speaker 5: and in a very heartbreaking role in this book. Her mother,
Speaker 5: mary Anne. It's been twelve days since Robin has been
Speaker 5: has disappeared, they find her. You have another dramatic conversation
Speaker 5: in here with Mary Anne wanting to see her daughter,
Speaker 5: wanting to take a look. Why is that not permitted?
Speaker 7: Well, you know you have to realize that, you know,
Speaker 7: the advance to Kay of the cop and the uh,
Speaker 7: the way she had been sexually assaulted and left. This
Speaker 7: is you know, I don't like to get too graphic,
Speaker 7: but you know, because it's so bad, there's you can't allow.
Speaker 7: I mean, how do you how do you let someone
Speaker 7: see something like that of your of your little girl,
Speaker 7: right especially in such such a bad place. And you know,
Speaker 7: so it's kind of one of those things where there's
Speaker 7: there's nothing you can do about that. I mean, I
Speaker 7: I I, you know, I don't. I don't get into
Speaker 7: the the you know, like the the the jaw and
Speaker 7: being broken the way that the eye is and the
Speaker 7: rib cage. She was so tore up, right, you can't,
Speaker 7: you know, and and the plus she was out there
Speaker 7: for Mamma fied and with animals, and I just there's
Speaker 7: just there's just no way you can you can do that, right,
Speaker 7: mm hmmm mm hmm.
Speaker 5: Now what precipitates? Finally you talk about that the FBI
Speaker 5: gets a call, l A. P d Gets a call
Speaker 5: from the FBI about Rodney alcohola. What is that conversation
Speaker 5: and tell us how it comes to be that the
Speaker 5: police finally catch up with him.
Speaker 7: Well, I think the biggest thing, the biggest key was
Speaker 7: when they were investigating and they were talking to them,
Speaker 7: and when they go to girlfriends and they were doing
Speaker 7: all of that stuff. But what what what? What was
Speaker 7: kind of a key thing was one of the detectives
Speaker 7: saw a storage locker receipt from Seattle in his house
Speaker 7: in l Palace. Now, of course their search weren't wouldn't
Speaker 7: allow them to take that. The type of search warrant
Speaker 7: they had. They were not allowed to pick take items
Speaker 7: like that. So what he did was he wrote down
Speaker 7: the phone number of the Storagelocker and then what he
Speaker 7: did then was he called them later find out if
Speaker 7: he did have a storagelocker, which they did so the
Speaker 7: next day after that they drove from Ala up to
Speaker 7: California and then they went through the storagelocker. They got
Speaker 7: a search warrant and in that storagelocker is when they
Speaker 7: found all the pictures he had taken from girls and boys.
Speaker 7: Now this is interesting, yeah, because there were there were
Speaker 7: thousands of pictures and it wasn't just girls so and
Speaker 7: most of them were in unclosed they were not dressed,
Speaker 7: and they were in some sort of provocative position. So
Speaker 7: that was kind of a giveaway as well.
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Speaker 5: slash true for fifteen percent off today. Now, Alan, we
Speaker 5: were talking about what led to the arrest, because this
Speaker 5: is just the beginning of the story. Once they have
Speaker 5: arrested Rodney Alcala and charged them for the murder of
Speaker 5: Robin Samso. Tell us about this trial before we talk
Speaker 5: about the problems with that trial that resulted in an appeal.
Speaker 7: Well, the trials started out for Robin SAMSO's and I
Speaker 7: believe it was August fourteenth, was the area. A trial
Speaker 7: was straightforward. He had a signed a defense attorney, and
Speaker 7: you know, they did the preliminity erics. They had a
Speaker 7: lot of the evidence. It was creating a lot of
Speaker 7: interest in the community and people and the media, and
Speaker 7: the prelimitary hearing started in September of seventy nine. It
Speaker 7: has to be noted about Dana Crapper because that was
Speaker 7: the forestry worker and she had so many different versions
Speaker 7: she told by then, but they were still going to
Speaker 7: go ahead and use her for the prosecution. And that's
Speaker 7: kind of where we lead into a problem down the road.
Speaker 5: Now we've seen this in other cases, and especially the
Speaker 5: two murder audience knows this that there seems to be
Speaker 5: problems presented that the district attorney prosecutor didn't anticipate in
Speaker 5: that bringing in prior crimes. Introducing those prior crimes can
Speaker 5: be seen as prejudicial to the case at hand. But
Speaker 5: this was introduced because of those prior crimes, at least,
Speaker 5: as the prosecutor thought that they had so many similarities
Speaker 5: that they were allowable because of that similarity to be
Speaker 5: introduced as prior crimes. Despite this trial, and again I
Speaker 5: hate to fast forward through this, but this trial with
Speaker 5: again Dana Crappa telling so many different variations of the
Speaker 5: story and being such a reluctant witness that also that
Speaker 5: these prior crimes were deemed in an appeal necessitating another trial,
Speaker 5: isn't that correct?
Speaker 7: Yeah, it was continuous in a sense, as ended up
Speaker 7: being three trials in all, and this was long process,
Speaker 7: right going through each step. And and they even said
Speaker 7: that Dana Crapper was in one of the appeals that
Speaker 7: they won, had been hypnotized by the police and the
Speaker 7: prosecution and actually won that appeal, which I'm still shocked
Speaker 7: over that. But this is just how the system works,
Speaker 7: and I don't think it's right, and it puts people
Speaker 7: through the whole process so many times, like the family,
Speaker 7: the victims that survived, the people related to it have
Speaker 7: to relive this over and over and over year after
Speaker 7: year after year, and go through the same testimonies and
Speaker 7: the same you know. The thing is, the bottom line
Speaker 7: is we know what he did and that he did
Speaker 7: do these crimes. It's just about getting them convicted and
Speaker 7: put away. But it's become such a complicated, over complicated
Speaker 7: process that you're not really serving justice for not only
Speaker 7: the victim, but the victims' families who are still alive,
Speaker 7: which has got to be the most painful of everything,
Speaker 7: because how can you do that? I mean, justice is
Speaker 7: supposed to be about, you know, justice, reward, making people
Speaker 7: feel better and the person being caught and punished and
Speaker 7: taken off the streets in this case, and the family
Speaker 7: can kind of grieve and move on with life. But
Speaker 7: when something like this goes on for you know, upwards
Speaker 7: of twenty years, everyone's still back in their original time
Speaker 7: and when the crime happened and when the girl was
Speaker 7: murdered and or raped, so you know, they've all lost
Speaker 7: all of that time in their life. It's the way
Speaker 7: I look at it, because it hasn't ended. In fact,
Speaker 7: it still hasn't end.
Speaker 5: It you talk about this second trial, which you say
Speaker 5: was almost identical to the first, except they didn't include
Speaker 5: the prior record and they still got the death penalty.
Speaker 5: And this is nineteen eighty six, So talking about crimes
Speaker 5: from the seventies, then it was the eighties that death
Speaker 5: penalty was overturned. Now this is nineteen eighty six. And
Speaker 5: then as a result of this automatic appeal because you
Speaker 5: have the death penalty now resulting in again another appeal
Speaker 5: based on, as you say, Dana Krappa's problematic, problematic testimony
Speaker 5: because there was so many differences in what she did,
Speaker 5: and also that they try to imply is that through
Speaker 5: hypnosis that there was a lot of suggestions to lead
Speaker 5: her around to her eventual story that you reluctantly testified
Speaker 5: at court. Isn't it right?
Speaker 7: Yeah? Yeah, I mean, it's just it's crazy how this
Speaker 7: went on and then would get appealed and would win
Speaker 7: on these crazy things hypnotized. I just you know, after
Speaker 7: a while, you start to shake your head and kind
Speaker 7: of go, well, where's this coming? From you know, I'm
Speaker 7: just I'm disappointed in the system. And actually one of
Speaker 7: the reasons I wrote this book and followed up on
Speaker 7: this was because of the way the system works. What's
Speaker 7: happening to the people. It's not just you know, a
Speaker 7: guy kills girl, gets arrested, goes to jail, dies of
Speaker 7: a death penalty or just life in prison, and family griefs,
Speaker 7: buries the child and moves on. It's not that straightforward anymore.
Speaker 7: It's so it's just so much going on that how
Speaker 7: does one deal with it?
Speaker 5: You take us to the incredible third trial, and now
Speaker 5: Rodney Alkala is sixty five years old and this is
Speaker 5: January eleven, twenty ten. And what we did skip over
Speaker 5: is the DNA advances in the turn of the century,
Speaker 5: as we all know began in the eighties, but really
Speaker 5: by the early two thousands that were making some real
Speaker 5: strides with DNA advances and then resultant investigations that were
Speaker 5: come to fruition because of it. And you talk about
Speaker 5: the DNA with these advances, he was a sample was
Speaker 5: taken because of a state law, and as a result,
Speaker 5: finally the DNA catches up and he gets hits for
Speaker 5: five murders, and so we have a trial in twenty ten.
Speaker 5: It's completely different because we're looking at much more evidence,
Speaker 5: not dependent on circumstantial evidence. This is DNA evidence, much
Speaker 5: more convincing. And with this third trial, Rodney alcala, as
Speaker 5: you write, he has fought hard and long to try
Speaker 5: to represent himself and he has just an investigator there
Speaker 5: that's done some interviews for him on behalf of him.
Speaker 5: So now with this third trial, Rodney alcala is representing himself.
Speaker 5: This sets the stage for one of the most bizarre
Speaker 5: trials and some of the most bizarre trial events in
Speaker 5: true crime history. Tell us a little bit about.
Speaker 7: This, Yeah, what you know, complete craziness. They allow him
Speaker 7: to be his own, his own guy. So he shows
Speaker 7: up at court, he's got long curly hair, sunglasses, sports jacket,
Speaker 7: jeans on, and he's there for a good time. And
Speaker 7: that's exactly how he acted throughout the whole trial. He
Speaker 7: was smiling and laughing and happy and entertaining. He was
Speaker 7: entertaining to himself. And you see, and this is kind
Speaker 7: of you know, I come back to that again in
Speaker 7: the sense that so you're allowing this guy to put
Speaker 7: his victims and victims families on the stand and ask
Speaker 7: them questions. It's just complete craziness. The whole thing went
Speaker 7: when bizarre, and like you said, they had found those
Speaker 7: other hits, so he was being They combined those murder
Speaker 7: chargers all in one. So the trial wasn't just the
Speaker 7: Robin Samsung murder. It was the whole gamut. But I
Speaker 7: will say he only defends himself on the samsu case.
Speaker 7: He didn't seem to focus on any of the other cases.
Speaker 7: And it had almost no questions to ask and no
Speaker 7: just nothing. It was almost like he wasn't focused on those,
Speaker 7: didn't care about those. He was just focused on Robin
Speaker 7: Samso and it was you know, he showed them movies,
Speaker 7: he showed them his performance on the dating game. He
Speaker 7: asked them the most bizarre questions really focused on jewelry.
Speaker 7: He always asked them about if they were wearing ear
Speaker 7: rings or if the victim was sold with ear rings,
Speaker 7: if they had ear rings, what kind that was his?
Speaker 7: That seemed to be right through the whole trial on
Speaker 7: all of the witnesses.
Speaker 5: When you talk about the ear rings, what we forgot
Speaker 5: to mention was that there was one of the victim's
Speaker 5: ear rings found in the home, and so it is
Speaker 5: curious how he keeps focusing, not really cross examining witnesses
Speaker 5: when he has an opportunity, but he is focusing almost
Speaker 5: all of his questions about ear rings. So some of
Speaker 5: those earrings were found and the DNA was linked to
Speaker 5: those ear rings. And what he tried to say with
Speaker 5: the movie, why he said he presented the movie and
Speaker 5: said he to you have to watch very carefully, is
Speaker 5: that he tried to introduce witnesses to say he always
Speaker 5: wore those kinds of ear rings. Yet there was testimony
Speaker 5: from the mother of the victim to say those ear
Speaker 5: rings were hers. So bizarre part of this trial is
Speaker 5: the cross examination of that mother, Mary Anne, to say
Speaker 5: those were my ear rings. And this incredible cross examination.
Speaker 5: He is put in his place on the stand too,
Speaker 5: which is very very interesting because one person just looks
Speaker 5: them right in the eye and tells them and I
Speaker 5: believe that's Marie Anne, and that puts him in his place,
Speaker 5: and he ends up resting without asking any more questions.
Speaker 5: The rightfully does not cross examine her anymore, but he
Speaker 5: cross examines himself for five hours and asks himself ridiculous
Speaker 5: questions about what he did for the entire month of June,
Speaker 5: just excluding June twentieth, so the court had to endure
Speaker 5: five hours of him doing this. And as you write
Speaker 5: in your book too, another again interesting star that just
Speaker 5: happens to be in the courtroom is Charlie's Theren who
Speaker 5: is there as you write. She's researching her role as
Speaker 5: Aileen Warnos for her upcoming movie Monster. So she's at
Speaker 5: the penalty phase of this. And we've jumped a little
Speaker 5: bit ahead with this trial into the penalty phase. But
Speaker 5: in the penalty phase there's some interesting witnesses that the
Speaker 5: prosecution saves, and there's a very dramatic scenes in court
Speaker 5: as well. Who it comes to the penalty phase of
Speaker 5: this case.
Speaker 7: For me, I found that Telly Shapiro was probably the
Speaker 7: most influential. I don't know if that's the word, but
Speaker 7: that was definitely the most dramatic. And she was the
Speaker 7: original when she was eight years old, sixty eight, and
Speaker 7: she was, as we call it, the first known victim,
Speaker 7: you know, and that was the most dramatic I think
Speaker 7: throughout the whole the whole trial, because you know, could
Speaker 7: you imagine being in that physician and now and I
Speaker 7: believe she was much she was like closer to fifty
Speaker 7: at the time. I didn't, I can't remember, but you know,
Speaker 7: it's just it's got to be the most dramatic just
Speaker 7: having her stand or sit before him and and testify
Speaker 7: and actually answer questions.
Speaker 5: You know, what was this? Yeah? What was fortuitous for
Speaker 5: the courts was that because of his narcissism and ego,
Speaker 5: wanting to be a witness at his own trial, helped
Speaker 5: the prosecutor be able to introduce all those prior crimes.
Speaker 5: So he was able to ask about all of those
Speaker 5: things that basically ruined the first two trials, and so
Speaker 5: that really was fortuitous, wasn't it for be able to
Speaker 5: bring in all that information, bring in in these other
Speaker 5: witnesses in the penalty phase, to be able to show
Speaker 5: the jury exactly who this person was. And we have,
Speaker 5: I guess save the audience from some of it, but
Speaker 5: they did get into horrific detail of the abuse. You know,
Speaker 5: I won't get into it, but just the physical violation
Speaker 5: that each of one of these victims endured, and then
Speaker 5: very many of these victims were posed for further humiliation
Speaker 5: and shock value when police would find them. Isn't that correct.
Speaker 7: Yeah, Like I said, there was some sort of he
Speaker 7: was trying to display something to people, and he was
Speaker 7: trying to do things in a way to get a reaction.
Speaker 7: He wanted that and why, you know, there's there's just
Speaker 7: nothing I can explain about what he did why he
Speaker 7: did it. But it wasn't just a simple attack or
Speaker 7: there was so much more to it. The torture and
Speaker 7: the and the display and the burning and all the
Speaker 7: things that he did. There was a lot more going
Speaker 7: on here, and I don't know if we'll ever really know.
Speaker 7: You know, quite often too, if you noticed in the trial,
Speaker 7: just as when he was picked up by Hodell the
Speaker 7: very beginning, when Steve Hodell, the detective from LA asked him,
Speaker 7: you know about what he did or why he did it,
Speaker 7: and he turned around and said, well that was that's Broughney.
Speaker 7: A call. I don't want to talk about him. He
Speaker 7: put himself in the third person a lot, and even
Speaker 7: during the trial it was all a third person sort
Speaker 7: of way. So you have to wonder in his mind,
Speaker 7: does he think he's someone else or sometimes he's Robbney
Speaker 7: and sometimes he's someone else. It's one of those really
Speaker 7: bizarre things. And I don't think we'll ever resolve it
Speaker 7: because we quite often don't. And the unfortunate thing. Yes,
Speaker 7: you know, he'll never be put to death.
Speaker 5: M hmm, yeah, that's for sure. Certainly. In the third trial,
Speaker 5: it was a murder during the commission of kidnapping. He
Speaker 5: was a premeditated murder with torture during commission of burglary,
Speaker 5: robbery and rape for Charlotte Lamb, deliberate premeditation, premeditated murder
Speaker 5: with torture during commission of burglary, robbery and rape of
Speaker 5: Georgia Wexted number four, the deliberate premeditated murder with torture
Speaker 5: of Jill Parento, and you talk about this. It was
Speaker 5: a real feisty prosecutor to this, Gina Santriano. He had
Speaker 5: this judge Risseno, and the prosecutor again with Santriano, was
Speaker 5: this Matt Murphy that did some amazing again cross examination
Speaker 5: and very interesting across examination of Rodney Alcala in this
Speaker 5: and led to, of course the conviction. There were a
Speaker 5: couple results from those photos that were released into you
Speaker 5: say in two thousand and you write the twenty ten
Speaker 5: that the police felt that there was a good idea
Speaker 5: to release about one hundred and ten or so photos
Speaker 5: of mostly young women. Why did they think that was
Speaker 5: a good idea and did it get any results?
Speaker 7: Yeah? I think when they found all of those pictures,
Speaker 7: and because they were in such suggestive positions in the pictures,
Speaker 7: and a lot of them without clothing, they thought, well,
Speaker 7: who are all these people? Did they all suffered at
Speaker 7: the hands of the Kalla. Did they have a bad
Speaker 7: ending as well? We don't know. So. At first the
Speaker 7: FBI and then now the New York Police for some
Speaker 7: reason New York, but they had all posted it all
Speaker 7: over the website, and they want people to identify any
Speaker 7: of the victims the pictures, if they knew anybody in
Speaker 7: those pictures, you know, who they were and where they
Speaker 7: are now, or who their family is and stuff, because
Speaker 7: they want to actually find out who all these people were,
Speaker 7: you know. And they have found quite a few that
Speaker 7: had not had a bad ending or that did not
Speaker 7: get killed or attacked by him. So that's one good
Speaker 7: thing they're getting out of it. But another thing is
Speaker 7: that they are starting to find victims that did not
Speaker 7: come out of it well. And they came to their
Speaker 7: end when they met Rodney Okella. So I think it's
Speaker 7: going to be the way it's looking now, Between that
Speaker 7: and the DNA hits that they keep getting, I think
Speaker 7: you're going to see quite a few more of his
Speaker 7: victims come up, whether they actually try him or not.
Speaker 7: On these cases, I'm not sure. It's kind of an
Speaker 7: open book right now, you know, because it comes down
Speaker 7: to money and timing and trying to find witnesses, and unfortunate,
Speaker 7: a lot of these cases will never come to trial.
Speaker 7: You know.
Speaker 5: You talk about Christine Ruth Thornton and she was identified
Speaker 5: through those photos twenty eight years old, and he was
Speaker 5: supposed to go to Wyoming, but Alkala said he was
Speaker 5: too ill to travel, so that was canceled or postponed.
Speaker 5: Talk about as a result of this ongoing investigation that
Speaker 5: Joyce Gaunt and Antoinette Whittaker Joyce Scoutnt was seventeen years
Speaker 5: old and her friend was Antoinette Whitaker was thirteen when
Speaker 5: they weren't friends. Pardon me, separate victims in Washington State
Speaker 5: nineteen seventy seven, Pamela Jean Lamson in San Francisco, And
Speaker 5: I mentioned Christine Ruth Thornton and Wyoming, and of course
Speaker 5: the ones in New York State. So this has expanded
Speaker 5: to again at least seven murders and definitely suspicion of
Speaker 5: many more.
Speaker 7: Isn't that true, right, Yeah, Yeah, it's going it's gonna
Speaker 7: be he's going to be another Ted Bundy. He's going
Speaker 7: to have there's going to be an unknown amount and
Speaker 7: it's just going to keep coming up as they keep testing.
Speaker 7: And it seems like from what we can tell is
Speaker 7: he traveled to all of these places and he would
Speaker 7: look for victims that would fit who was being killed
Speaker 7: at the time, Like remember the Hillside Strangler and I
Speaker 7: included that in there about the victims and two that
Speaker 7: we know he did ended up being his, but originally
Speaker 7: they were considered Hillside stranglers victims, and I think that's
Speaker 7: the case in New York. That's why he was choosing
Speaker 7: the older ladies for the forty four caliber. He wasn't.
Speaker 7: I don't know if he was. He was that clever
Speaker 7: that that's what he was doing throughout all the states.
Speaker 7: Has been suggested that that's what he was doing, and
Speaker 7: that's why he chose totally different victims when he was
Speaker 7: in a different state, you know, different age, different shape,
Speaker 7: different way of killing, because you notice on a lot
Speaker 7: of the ones in other states he did not torture
Speaker 7: or display them like he did with a lot of
Speaker 7: these victims. So there was something going on in his mind.
Speaker 7: He chose to do these things in a particular way
Speaker 7: for a reason, and he chose not to do it
Speaker 7: on a lot of victims in other states for a
Speaker 7: different reason. So I don't think he was just kind
Speaker 7: of going, well, i'll get a thirty year old here
Speaker 7: and that they won't connect me. I don't think. I
Speaker 7: think there's more to it than that. And yeah, you know,
Speaker 7: it's kind of sad and scary at the same time.
Speaker 5: It is interesting too when some detectives have had to say, listen,
Speaker 5: you know, despite what a profiler might say that they
Speaker 5: don't change their remo or they don't change their signature,
Speaker 5: or they don't change their victim typology, we'll say and
Speaker 5: that would include age. And just recently they said, no, no,
Speaker 5: this is this is what a really clever killer would do,
Speaker 5: cast out on them, put to put the blame on
Speaker 5: someone else and lead police on a wild goose chase. Certainly,
Speaker 5: this killer of Rodney Alcala has a lot of narcissistic tendencies.
Speaker 5: But one of them wasn't contacting the police. One of
Speaker 5: them was eluding detection certainly, so that was at least
Speaker 5: different from some other people that need to contact authorities.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think also with a Kella. You you know,
Speaker 7: people are very complex. You know, even good people are
Speaker 7: people that don't kill everyone in your life. You know,
Speaker 7: there's complexities to these humans. And so when you get
Speaker 7: killers too, it's the same thing. You know, you can
Speaker 7: have general rules and generally they have the same memo.
Speaker 7: But there's a lot of killers like al Keller out
Speaker 7: there that they're realizing it's just not it's not so
Speaker 7: much about them or what they're kind of how they're
Speaker 7: doing it. It's it's there's more to the kill itself,
Speaker 7: and maybe they've got to get that fix how there
Speaker 7: they can. And you know, and you know yourself that
Speaker 7: there's just because they're a serial killer does not mean
Speaker 7: they're super intelligent. They're not Einstein's. A lot of them
Speaker 7: are just regular people that have regular jobs or lived
Speaker 7: a pretty regular life and they fit right in society
Speaker 7: and their average and yeah, they can be clever at times,
Speaker 7: but as is in a lot of people, so I
Speaker 7: just I, you know, I don't I don't know if
Speaker 7: we can. I think, if anything, al Keller shows us
Speaker 7: that you can be kind of a chameleon in what
Speaker 7: you're doing, even in murder. So I think people maybe
Speaker 7: will wake up to that and not just assume, Oh,
Speaker 7: that couldn't have been this girls, you know, like that's
Speaker 7: just kind of these thoughts.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was interesting too, and again pretty horrifying. I
Speaker 5: think for a younger audience to realize is that once
Speaker 5: upon a time, despite what people would say at face
Speaker 5: value is inherent creepiness, is a guy in the beach,
Speaker 5: dressed well with a big mullet haircut here with a
Speaker 5: camera around his neck. And that's all it took. Pretty well,
Speaker 5: Hey I'm I'm you know, good camera equipment and the
Speaker 5: idea that I'm in a contest, could I take your photos?
Speaker 5: And he got women to undress, he got women to
Speaker 5: pose somewhat provocatively, He got people to cooperate with him
Speaker 5: based on a camera hanging around his neck and the
Speaker 5: assurance that he was a photographer.
Speaker 7: That was it exactly. You know, I didn't know him personally,
Speaker 7: so just watching the TV and the films and the
Speaker 7: and the trials and stuff. But I think that apparently
Speaker 7: he had an incredible amount of charm. And this is
Speaker 7: why he could get a job in one day. He
Speaker 7: could get its parole office and to send him to
Speaker 7: New York. Let him go to New York in the
Speaker 7: first month. You know, he could talk that one agent
Speaker 7: into believing that this thirteen or fifteen year old girl
Speaker 7: was trying to set him up and just use them
Speaker 7: for pot. And you know, he did a lot of
Speaker 7: things and got away with it. So people are not
Speaker 7: always on their guards. You don't always expect that the
Speaker 7: person you're talking to is a serial killer. You're thinking
Speaker 7: that it was just a normal guy. And if he
Speaker 7: could walk around and dress normal and act normal and
Speaker 7: look kind of normal, and he's a photographer and he's
Speaker 7: a good photographer. Obviously he got in NYU and he worked,
Speaker 7: he decides, you know, Polanski the filmmaker, and so you
Speaker 7: know he must have had some sort of ability to
Speaker 7: turn it on and be noticed and get his way.
Speaker 7: You know, something about him made it easier. And people unsuspected,
Speaker 7: you know that they weren't not It just wasn't going
Speaker 7: to happen, you know, they just let it go. Very few.
Speaker 7: In fact, when you think about him roaming the beaches
Speaker 7: and after the fact, they found very few witnesses after
Speaker 7: the fact that came forward that complained. So you have
Speaker 7: to wonder how many he actually got away with, you know.
Speaker 7: And that Samsoe case too in itself, when she was
Speaker 7: on the beach and he was approaching and doing that
Speaker 7: and the neighbor came up and he ran away from that,
Speaker 7: He still her later, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 7: It was because nobody was suspect. They didn't suspect. They
Speaker 7: just thought must have been a creep. Forget it. Yeah,
Speaker 7: they didn't. They didn't. They didn't follow up, And I'm
Speaker 7: not blaming them. It's not a blame. But you just
Speaker 7: don't think yet, I not think. You know, you're walking
Speaker 7: down the road and you see someone who's a little
Speaker 7: bit off. That's just kind of how you go and
Speaker 7: you just keep it out your day. But so you're
Speaker 7: not expecting him to be watching and following you and
Speaker 7: then attack you later. You know, it's not in our mind.
Speaker 7: So I'm not trying to make people paranoid now.
Speaker 4: Just yeah, but we didn't We didn't talk about another
Speaker 4: incredible incident too, where a mother goes into the courtroom
Speaker 4: and she has a secret in her purse in case
Speaker 4: things don't go the way.
Speaker 5: She thinks, what what what's her plan? And she admits
Speaker 5: to it later. What what happens and what does she
Speaker 5: have in her person?
Speaker 7: Yeah? That was that was kind of you know, I
Speaker 7: really kind of I keep shaking my head over that.
Speaker 7: She she came into the court and she watched the
Speaker 7: trial every single day, and inside of her perch she
Speaker 7: had a handgun and throughout most of the trial in
Speaker 7: her in her claimness that she had her hand in
Speaker 7: her purse on the with her hand on the gun
Speaker 7: almost the whole time, day after day. And what she
Speaker 7: was only about twenty feet away in the courtroom or
Speaker 7: so in her seat. Her plan was that if he
Speaker 7: wasn't convicted, how kala that is, she was just going
Speaker 7: to shoot him right there. She was going to stand up,
Speaker 7: shoot him, kill him because justice had to be served
Speaker 7: in her mind. And so he did get convicted. And
Speaker 7: when she came out of the courtroom, of course she
Speaker 7: pulled the gun out and showed everybody. But how did
Speaker 7: how did you get in? I'm still confused because we're
Speaker 7: talking in the two thousands. How can you walk into
Speaker 7: a courtroom with a gun without setting off the sector?
Speaker 7: I think you know there's yeah, well there's there's something
Speaker 7: more going on there. And I'm not trying to suggest
Speaker 7: a conspiracy, but there was some way that she was
Speaker 7: able to do this every single day and not get caught.
Speaker 5: Well, there's some lack of security, to say the least.
Speaker 5: To say the least, we didn't talk about another victim here,
Speaker 5: Monique Hooy, that was lucky to survive, but she was raped,
Speaker 5: unfortunately on Valentine's Day in nineteen seventy nine, and he
Speaker 5: bit her and did all kinds of things to her,
Speaker 5: and she showed up for the penalty phase, and of
Speaker 5: course Rodney Alcala cross examined her, and he said he
Speaker 5: asked her questions like didn't I apologize to you after
Speaker 5: I raped you? And she said, well, an apology is meaningless,
Speaker 5: and she wouldn't look at him, but he said, I
Speaker 5: did apologize. She said, well, it was fake, but I
Speaker 5: did apologize, and then she used it as an opportunity,
Speaker 5: said yeah, but you killed those other people. And then
Speaker 5: Matt Murphy that the prosecutor called Tory Shapiro and like
Speaker 5: we mentioned she was eight when she was kidnapped and
Speaker 5: raped and minutes from death. She was much different in
Speaker 5: that cross examination when he said that he apologized. You
Speaker 5: have this very dramatic scene in this book. I will
Speaker 5: just tell the audience when he said he apologized as
Speaker 5: opposed to Manique wit this woman Tory Shapiro said nothing
Speaker 5: but looked him in the eye. The other Monique Hoit
Speaker 5: could not look him in the eye. She looked him
Speaker 5: in the eye, in the eye, and then he said
Speaker 5: no for their questions, didn't.
Speaker 7: He Yeah, yeah, she was. She was not backing down.
Speaker 7: She was there. She was angry, she was knocked, backing down.
Speaker 7: She was not going to let him manipulate her anymore.
Speaker 7: It was over. That whole thing was behind her and
Speaker 7: she was very strong. Where Yeah, Monique Kite was very
Speaker 7: a timid. She was still scared. She was still living
Speaker 7: the trauma. Really it was, you know, she was not
Speaker 7: I don't think she was quite in the same place
Speaker 7: as Telly Shapiro was, you know, mentally.
Speaker 5: You also talk about the mother Mary Anne, and again
Speaker 5: it's agonizing. We mentioned it that the idea that the
Speaker 5: prosecutor I'm sure is not doing something that he knows
Speaker 5: that will be overturned. That appeal he's doing is whether
Speaker 5: it's a man or female, is doing an exemplary job
Speaker 5: and trying to prosecute this person. But especially especially in
Speaker 5: death penalty cases, they're afforded every available appeal and there
Speaker 5: is more scrutiny because of that death penalty conviction. In
Speaker 5: this what's heartbreaking is from again twenty years of this
Speaker 5: woman having to go to those separate trials. She agonized
Speaker 5: over and expressed her dismay over having to relive this
Speaker 5: over and over again, didn't she Yeah, yeah, this is.
Speaker 7: What I said. You know, it's something that it affects
Speaker 7: these the victims and the families. They just can't I mean,
Speaker 7: how do you think it's like you can't put an
Speaker 7: end to it. You just you've got this in the
Speaker 7: back of your mind every single day of your life.
Speaker 7: This does not go away. This is not something you
Speaker 7: can spend time and move on. Here you're stuck. You're
Speaker 7: back at that place in nineteen sixty eight in her case,
Speaker 7: or yeah, you know, but you're back in that place
Speaker 7: and it doesn't go away. You can't just you can't
Speaker 7: move on as honest as trials keep going and you
Speaker 7: know when you bring that up, you know, the death
Speaker 7: penalty cases get automatic appeals and quite often in California
Speaker 7: they get overturned.
Speaker 5: Yes, yes, it's beyond frustrating for that many years. And
Speaker 5: again this is not the only case where that has happened.
Speaker 5: But you have to feel for these people that justice
Speaker 5: never really is ever served, and especially not through the courts,
Speaker 5: not with that kind of drawing out of a process,
Speaker 5: and especially when he's given again. I understand his ability
Speaker 5: to be able to defend himself, but to cross examine
Speaker 5: himself and then to cross examine victims, it's a high
Speaker 5: price to pay for. And it's amazing that the prosecutor
Speaker 5: can convince these people to come and relive this again.
Speaker 5: It's hard to believe that Torri Shapiro after all those years,
Speaker 5: would want to and be able to come forward after
Speaker 5: those many years. But I think it looked like you
Speaker 5: had to put this guy away. When you start getting
Speaker 5: two or three trials, it looks like it's urgent to
Speaker 5: be able to finally put this guy away for his crimes.
Speaker 5: And thank God for DNA. One thing before I let
Speaker 5: you go again, another dramatic, crazy scene that the trial
Speaker 5: was when the judge asked him if he wanted to
Speaker 5: make a statement, if al Kala wanted to make a statement,
Speaker 5: and he said, really no, but he wanted to play
Speaker 5: a song. What's the song he played for the judge
Speaker 5: in the courtroom.
Speaker 7: Well, you gotta you gotta realize that this uh, this
Speaker 7: this guy his mind was, you know, I I don't
Speaker 7: I don't know what to say about his mind. You know,
Speaker 7: he was you know, he made them watch the Alison's
Speaker 7: restaurants that I can go through all of that stuff,
Speaker 7: and you have to realize that he had something going
Speaker 7: on that, you see. That's what I mean. I don't
Speaker 7: know if he was trying to tell people something or
Speaker 7: try to you know, you know, I wish I could
Speaker 7: figure out his his mindset here and it just you know,
Speaker 7: I don't know, and you know.
Speaker 5: It doesn't it doesn't make much sense. But what he
Speaker 5: did say, you know, in this case, he referred to
Speaker 5: the lyrics of Alice's Restaurant and pointed to the lyrics
Speaker 5: in particular where the character says to an army psychiatrist,
Speaker 5: I want to kill I mean, I want to kill
Speaker 5: So I think he's referring to his army stint and
Speaker 5: maybe possibly that he had this nervous breakdown again. Everyone
Speaker 5: seems to attribute it to his father dying suddenly, but
Speaker 5: we don't really get in so much information in terms
Speaker 5: of what that relationship meant to him. Was there some
Speaker 5: something that wasn't said between him, wasn't was the relationship
Speaker 5: not on firm ground. We don't know what that meant,
Speaker 5: but it seems like if he has any seeming importance
Speaker 5: to what he did at this trial, and not to
Speaker 5: say that there is any evidence of that, but it
Speaker 5: just seems odd that the character is somebody talking to
Speaker 5: an army psychiatrist and they talked about I want to
Speaker 5: kill I mean I want to kill.
Speaker 7: Yeah, And in that statement itself, in the movie itself,
Speaker 7: that was Ala got through trying to, you know, anti
Speaker 7: Vietnam War, like you have to be a person that
Speaker 7: wants to kill and the army wants you if you
Speaker 7: want to kill like that, you know, he was kind
Speaker 7: of making a statement, So I don't I don't know
Speaker 7: if that was kind of it or not. I don't
Speaker 7: know if he was trying to make a statement that
Speaker 7: the arready wanted you to kill and that's why where
Speaker 7: he learned it where that's where he became that way,
Speaker 7: you know, it's it's you can't really, I don't know,
Speaker 7: you can't figure him out exactly, you know, and then
Speaker 7: he still talks about him in the third person. So
Speaker 7: they wanted Rodney to kill.
Speaker 5: I just it doesn't not for much explanation. I think
Speaker 5: it just seems like he had an opportunity. He forced
Speaker 5: the issue in terms of another trial. I think he
Speaker 5: felt emboldened that he had gone to that point, and
Speaker 5: I mean, he became a jailhouse lawyer, he had got
Speaker 5: the permission to be able to represent himself. And I
Speaker 5: think it looked like, especially when you see video and
Speaker 5: you see photos of him, he was really I've seen
Speaker 5: some people that look kind of nonchalant. He looked like
Speaker 5: he was really enjoying himself at that third trial, despite
Speaker 5: what he could face, despite what likely would happen, fite
Speaker 5: any kind of advice, he needed to have his day
Speaker 5: in the sun. And it seemed like regardless, he didn't
Speaker 5: really have as much planned as you might have thought,
Speaker 5: given that he was permissioned to defend himself, not much
Speaker 5: of a cross examination, and the things that he chose
Speaker 5: to pick as particular subjects weren't particularly legal savvy, so
Speaker 5: it looked like he just enjoyed the day, enjoyed the attention.
Speaker 5: And the only thing that seemed to really really rattle him,
Speaker 5: and even though the prosecutor was hammering him, was that
Speaker 5: appearance from Tally Shapiro that really seemed to just silence him.
Speaker 7: Yeah. Yeah, it's the only thing that affected him, and
Speaker 7: the rest of it was just all a good time
Speaker 7: and he was having a good time. It was a
Speaker 7: party for him. It was entertaining. He was in the public,
Speaker 7: he was being watched, he got to dress up, he
Speaker 7: got out of prison. He was having a good time.
Speaker 7: And that's what it was to him. You know, at
Speaker 7: the end of the day, he was going to get convicted,
Speaker 7: sentenced to death in all four or five cases. Anytime
Speaker 7: he's going to go up, he's going to get it.
Speaker 7: But the bottom line is it's going to be appealed.
Speaker 7: They won't put him to death, and then it'll he'll
Speaker 7: he'll just end up life in prison. And it's just
Speaker 7: the same. It's just a cycle. And everybody else that
Speaker 7: comes up, or anybody else that they decide to try
Speaker 7: to prosecute him on if the same thing's going to happen.
Speaker 7: He's he's going to have it's like a vacation. And
Speaker 7: that's where I think it's wrong. We're allowing people like
Speaker 7: that to manipulate. Hey, think of the money that we
Speaker 7: have to pay as taxpayers to allow him to do
Speaker 7: this over and over and over again. And it's never
Speaker 7: going to end, and he's never really going to get punished.
Speaker 7: He's going to die in prison.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's very interesting too. In the book, we didn't
Speaker 5: talk about some of the role of jailhouse informants. Again
Speaker 5: on many cases on true murder, so many missteps using
Speaker 5: jailhouse informants. It seems like a mini industry in some
Speaker 5: of these prisons. How many guys have testified and then
Speaker 5: been deemed unqualified to testify seems incredible. A lot of
Speaker 5: things that we didn't cover in this book. I want
Speaker 5: to thank you very much for coming on and talking
Speaker 5: about this. Rodney Alcala, the game show Serial Killer and
Speaker 5: your book The Killing Game. He sits in California State
Speaker 5: Prison right now, Corcoran, and like you say, most likely
Speaker 5: he will just live out his life. No death penalty
Speaker 5: will be enacted on him, ye will it?
Speaker 7: Yeah? No, California. At the moment, the Supreme Court in
Speaker 7: California is ruled against it and they will not allow
Speaker 7: any death penalty to go through now. I think when
Speaker 7: it was sixty five out of seventy three and then
Speaker 7: turned down. So it's not going to happen as it stands.
Speaker 7: It's just not and they all get tried in California,
Speaker 7: so he'll just end up going through more trials and
Speaker 7: just dying in prison, which you know. Now, the Oxygen
Speaker 7: Network made a show of the book. It's called Mark
Speaker 7: of the Killer, which will be out in December on
Speaker 7: Oxygen right gradually.
Speaker 5: So yes, thank you very much for coming on and
Speaker 5: talking about the killing game. For those that might I
Speaker 5: want to take a look at the rather work. This
Speaker 5: is a Wild Blue Press release. And also tell us
Speaker 5: a little bit about your podcast, House of Mystery.
Speaker 7: Oh hous a mystery we do. We're five days a week.
Speaker 7: We do crime history, some paranormal and forensics, and there's conspiracy,
Speaker 7: so each day has a different subject Monday to Friday.
Speaker 7: It's in LA and Seattle and you can tune in
Speaker 7: at the local station. If you go to something weird
Speaker 7: Media dot com you can get a schedule for where
Speaker 7: it's played and where you can get it on the podcast,
Speaker 7: and also all the books that any of us have done,
Speaker 7: any of the hosts.
Speaker 5: Sounds good. And this is, like you say, a Wild
Speaker 5: Blue Press, and you are also published under R. J.
Speaker 5: Parker as well, and I guess you just go to
Speaker 5: Amazon and see all the books that Alan Warren has
Speaker 5: published in the last few years. Well, thank you very much, Alan,
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, absolutely, thank you very much, Alan R. Warren
Speaker 5: for The Killing Game, The True Story of Rodney Alcohola.
Speaker 5: It's been a pleasure. Thank you very much. Hope to
Speaker 5: talk to you again real soon.
Speaker 7: Thank you, good night. Yeah,