WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:02.799 Oh hey, it's that classroom desk chair that cracks your 2 00:00:02.799 --> 00:00:05.719 back perfectly. This is ali word, This is ologies. This 3 00:00:05.759 --> 00:00:07.879 is a show in which we cover one ology every episode. 4 00:00:07.879 --> 00:00:10.839 And friends, I know that you love donkeys already because 5 00:00:10.880 --> 00:00:13.160 we truly got like a tidal wave of questions for 6 00:00:13.199 --> 00:00:16.399 this one and happened to chat with the loveliest donkey 7 00:00:16.440 --> 00:00:19.480 expert we could find. This is such a chill conversation 8 00:00:20.079 --> 00:00:23.960 and cuddly and calming and informative. It was like sitting 9 00:00:24.039 --> 00:00:27.120 on a covered porch with a tea and a plate 10 00:00:27.120 --> 00:00:29.679 of cookies. You just keep eating while they talked about 11 00:00:29.679 --> 00:00:32.840 interesting donkey facts. And this ologist is the director of 12 00:00:32.920 --> 00:00:36.399 research and operational support at the nonprofit the Donkey Sanctuary, 13 00:00:36.640 --> 00:00:40.039 and it's been there for over two decades, researching, caring for, 14 00:00:40.159 --> 00:00:43.679 and advocating for donkeys. They're an author on dozens of 15 00:00:43.719 --> 00:00:46.840 donkey and mule research papers, as well as having a 16 00:00:46.840 --> 00:00:50.200 micro biological background, which we talk about. They were just 17 00:00:50.320 --> 00:00:52.119 made for this work and they love it. So we'll 18 00:00:52.119 --> 00:00:53.640 meet them in a minute. But thank you first to 19 00:00:53.679 --> 00:00:55.799 patrons of the show who make it possible. You two 20 00:00:55.840 --> 00:00:57.799 can join for as little as a dollar a month, 21 00:00:58.079 --> 00:01:00.039 and for free We also have shorter kid friends the 22 00:01:00.119 --> 00:01:03.000 episodes of ologies in their own feed. They're called Somologies 23 00:01:03.240 --> 00:01:06.040 sm l O g I S found wherever you get 24 00:01:06.079 --> 00:01:09.519 your podcasts Ologies Merch is available for your body at 25 00:01:09.560 --> 00:01:12.719 ologiesmerch dot com. And you can always support ologies by 26 00:01:12.760 --> 00:01:15.319 just leaving us a review, which helps so much it 27 00:01:15.319 --> 00:01:16.840 gets to show up in the charts and gets it 28 00:01:16.879 --> 00:01:19.599 seen each week. I kick this off by reading a 29 00:01:19.640 --> 00:01:22.719 recent one such as this from Lori two four seven four, 30 00:01:22.760 --> 00:01:27.079 who callologies charming, educational, and highly addictive. Treat yourself to 31 00:01:27.079 --> 00:01:29.920 an engaging conversation with experts at a level that doesn't 32 00:01:29.920 --> 00:01:32.680 belittle you or leave you lost in jargon. Also right 33 00:01:32.719 --> 00:01:36.159 amount of swearing. I appreciate that, and that is affirming. Okay. 34 00:01:36.239 --> 00:01:40.079 Asinology it comes from the Latin word asinus. It means ass, 35 00:01:40.280 --> 00:01:43.799 which means donkey. Donkey itself may come from an old 36 00:01:43.840 --> 00:01:48.280 word meaning dull brown, but that's been debated. But ass, 37 00:01:48.560 --> 00:01:51.319 as in your ass is gonna love. This episode came 38 00:01:51.439 --> 00:01:54.920 much later, and that was derived from the British arse, 39 00:01:55.079 --> 00:01:57.719 which came from a word for tail, a rump. We 40 00:01:57.799 --> 00:02:00.480 do also discuss rumps in this episode. I think you'll 41 00:02:00.480 --> 00:02:03.480 appreciate it, So take a long drink of water, saddle 42 00:02:03.560 --> 00:02:08.000 up for big ears, milky baths, Emperor gossip, squats for 43 00:02:08.240 --> 00:02:13.039 donkey kicks. How much weight can a beast of burden bear? Mule? Genetics, 44 00:02:13.199 --> 00:02:15.919 zoos sexism, How to care for a donkey? Where to 45 00:02:15.960 --> 00:02:19.159 pet a donkey? What their noises mean? And heads up, 46 00:02:19.159 --> 00:02:21.039 we do have donkey noises in here, so do not 47 00:02:21.120 --> 00:02:24.439 be startled. They're happy donkeys as well as what a 48 00:02:24.520 --> 00:02:27.599 donkey eats? What's up with those teeth? Donkeys on film? 49 00:02:27.960 --> 00:02:32.240 And busting so much flimflam with researcher director of research 50 00:02:32.240 --> 00:02:36.120 and operational support and nonprofit The Donkey Sanctuary, Friend to 51 00:02:36.199 --> 00:02:40.599 Donkeys Worldwide and acidologist doctor Faith Burden. 52 00:02:59.120 --> 00:03:02.159 Faith button and she, huh. 53 00:03:01.560 --> 00:03:04.719 You are are the way in the UK? 54 00:03:05.319 --> 00:03:05.560 Yes? 55 00:03:05.680 --> 00:03:08.479 Indeed, where exactly are donkeys? Do you know where are 56 00:03:08.520 --> 00:03:09.520 they from from? 57 00:03:09.759 --> 00:03:14.360 Yeah? So the donkey's ancestor is actually from East Africa, 58 00:03:14.919 --> 00:03:20.120 So the mountains and deserts of Ethiopia, Eritrea, Sudan, So 59 00:03:20.439 --> 00:03:23.919 a long long way away from the UK or the US. 60 00:03:24.199 --> 00:03:27.280 How long have they been kind of all over the world? 61 00:03:27.280 --> 00:03:30.080 At what point did people start saying donkeys I can 62 00:03:30.199 --> 00:03:31.319 get some donkeys over here. 63 00:03:32.400 --> 00:03:36.400 So donkeys were first domesticated about seven thousand years ago 64 00:03:36.439 --> 00:03:40.560 we think in East Africa, and they then slowly made 65 00:03:40.599 --> 00:03:43.879 their way up to Egypt, where they were a really 66 00:03:43.919 --> 00:03:49.560 important part of Egyptian ancient society. And from there they 67 00:03:49.840 --> 00:03:54.000 gradually spread across the world, particularly helped both by the 68 00:03:54.080 --> 00:04:00.159 Romans but also various explorers. So donkeys made their way 69 00:04:00.240 --> 00:04:05.879 to the America's in about the fifteenth century. So actually 70 00:04:05.919 --> 00:04:09.960 their history with us is quite recent, but it all 71 00:04:10.000 --> 00:04:13.199 began in the deserts and mountains of East Africa. 72 00:04:13.479 --> 00:04:18.720 So, yes, Equus asinus was domesticated from the wild African 73 00:04:18.800 --> 00:04:22.879 ass and it's a stunning creature with this strong jaw, 74 00:04:22.920 --> 00:04:26.439 it's got a stout frame, and this really beautiful pewter 75 00:04:26.680 --> 00:04:30.439 colored velveteen looking coat. And yes, donkeys have been our 76 00:04:30.480 --> 00:04:34.040 friends and tools for millennia. According to researchers of the 77 00:04:34.120 --> 00:04:37.800 twenty twenty two paper the Genomic History and Global Expansion 78 00:04:37.839 --> 00:04:41.439 of Domestic Donkeys in the Journal Science, domesticated in Africa 79 00:04:41.600 --> 00:04:45.120 went all around, came back to Africa. But before donkeys 80 00:04:45.120 --> 00:04:47.279 made that world tour genetically, in. 81 00:04:47.360 --> 00:04:52.879 Ancient Egypt, donkeys were originally used for meat and milk. Oh, 82 00:04:53.079 --> 00:04:57.360 and then they started to become a working animal, but 83 00:04:57.639 --> 00:05:01.160 very much a well respected ceremonial animal. 84 00:05:01.399 --> 00:05:01.800 Oh. 85 00:05:01.839 --> 00:05:05.240 So you actually can find a number of donkey skeletons 86 00:05:05.800 --> 00:05:10.519 that were buried along very high ranking noble people. So 87 00:05:10.800 --> 00:05:14.319 it was a real surprise when they opened up a 88 00:05:14.360 --> 00:05:17.319 tomb not long ago that was dedicated I believe to 89 00:05:17.360 --> 00:05:21.160 a cyrus, and in one of the king's tombs next 90 00:05:21.160 --> 00:05:26.639 door were donkey skeletons. So in Egypt, the donkey was 91 00:05:27.199 --> 00:05:32.120 very much associated with wealth and nobility and was a 92 00:05:32.279 --> 00:05:34.680 really respected and rivid animal. 93 00:05:35.240 --> 00:05:37.399 Okay, so there's at least all of you who want 94 00:05:37.439 --> 00:05:40.000 more in fine this, so please see the twenty twenty 95 00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:44.360 four paper Donkey's Genies and Demons Fantastical Creatures in Ancient 96 00:05:44.399 --> 00:05:48.959 Egyptian ritual Texts and Funery Assemblages, which notes that the 97 00:05:49.120 --> 00:05:53.439 donkey was depicted in ancient tomb scenes since the Old Kingdom, 98 00:05:53.439 --> 00:05:56.399 which was roughly five thousand years ago, and it represented 99 00:05:56.519 --> 00:06:00.399 an ambivalent creature that could either assist in the nately 100 00:06:00.519 --> 00:06:03.519 journey of the ancient sun god or it could be 101 00:06:03.600 --> 00:06:06.319 a malevolent force. It could go either way, like a 102 00:06:06.360 --> 00:06:08.560 cat or something that loves you and then tries to 103 00:06:08.639 --> 00:06:11.399 kill you. You mentioned that from the deserts. Is that 104 00:06:11.399 --> 00:06:14.040 why they have such big years like athena farct kind. 105 00:06:13.920 --> 00:06:18.279 Of yeah, really absolutely, So the donkey is adapted. Its 106 00:06:18.319 --> 00:06:21.759 ancestor is a desert dwelling animal, so it has lots 107 00:06:21.800 --> 00:06:25.040 and lots of adaptations, particularly the years, that's what we 108 00:06:25.079 --> 00:06:28.920 all notice. So they help not only to dissipate heat, 109 00:06:29.480 --> 00:06:34.600 but they're also fantastic for communication over really large expanses 110 00:06:35.240 --> 00:06:39.879 because in the ancestors natural environment, donkeys don't live in 111 00:06:40.040 --> 00:06:44.879 hurtz so unlike horses, where we all know that horses 112 00:06:44.959 --> 00:06:49.560 like to gather in hurts, the donkey's' ancestors live either 113 00:06:49.639 --> 00:06:53.240 alone or in very very small groups, so they need 114 00:06:53.240 --> 00:06:57.000 to communicate. And that's why the donkey's bray is so amazing. 115 00:06:57.920 --> 00:07:01.079 Travels for kilometers, but the years really important to. 116 00:07:01.399 --> 00:07:04.000 We're going to communicate to you more about their communication 117 00:07:04.079 --> 00:07:06.839 in a bit, but first let's crunch some numbers. You 118 00:07:07.240 --> 00:07:11.319 now have a donkey sanctuary. You are the mother to donkeys, 119 00:07:11.680 --> 00:07:12.360 if you will. 120 00:07:12.480 --> 00:07:14.639 I'm a mom, mama, sida. 121 00:07:15.040 --> 00:07:17.480 How many donkeys are in your care? 122 00:07:18.199 --> 00:07:22.439 So in the Donkey Sanctuary's care, we have six thousand 123 00:07:22.519 --> 00:07:26.839 two hundred donkeys that are in our ownership. About four 124 00:07:26.879 --> 00:07:29.519 thousand of those are in our direct care, and then 125 00:07:29.560 --> 00:07:33.959 we've got two thousand that live out in wonderful guardian 126 00:07:34.040 --> 00:07:37.000 homes that look after them in private homes. So we 127 00:07:37.199 --> 00:07:41.600 have thousands of donkeys. They're all amazing and it's such 128 00:07:41.639 --> 00:07:44.519 a privilege to work with them and care for them. 129 00:07:44.839 --> 00:07:48.120 So where are their origins? Typically, do you take in 130 00:07:48.160 --> 00:07:52.800 a lot of working donkeys that are retired or maybe 131 00:07:52.800 --> 00:07:56.040 that had been mistreated. I know that donkey welfare is 132 00:07:56.720 --> 00:07:59.720 like the cornerstone of your life, that's right, and so 133 00:08:00.360 --> 00:08:02.079 are a lot of your donkeys. 134 00:08:01.600 --> 00:08:06.600 From a complete mix. So, sadly, we still see lots 135 00:08:06.639 --> 00:08:09.600 of cases of neglect. So we still take in animals 136 00:08:09.639 --> 00:08:12.720 that have been abandoned or have been treated very badly. 137 00:08:13.639 --> 00:08:18.160 We also taking animals that have got significant behavioral issues 138 00:08:18.199 --> 00:08:24.360 that need rehabilitation, medical issues, and sadly we do see 139 00:08:24.399 --> 00:08:28.680 the issue of donkeys outliving their owners. So donkeys live 140 00:08:28.759 --> 00:08:32.399 a very long time, really, they can live into their thirties, 141 00:08:32.639 --> 00:08:37.799 and unfortunately sometimes their human careers can't look after them 142 00:08:37.879 --> 00:08:41.039 for their life. So we're trying to help people to 143 00:08:41.120 --> 00:08:44.639 understand that a donkey's lifetime is long and it's a 144 00:08:44.720 --> 00:08:49.480 big commitment, so we sometimes step in in those circumstances. 145 00:08:49.519 --> 00:08:54.440 But certainly in Europe there are not that many working 146 00:08:54.480 --> 00:08:59.799 donkeys anymore, sometimes in tourism, sometimes in small scale agriculture, 147 00:09:00.440 --> 00:09:03.360 but most of the donkeys that come into our sanctuaries 148 00:09:03.399 --> 00:09:07.200 at least will have been companions and pets. But it's 149 00:09:07.279 --> 00:09:09.919 very different to the work that we do internationally with 150 00:09:09.960 --> 00:09:10.879 working donkeys. 151 00:09:11.200 --> 00:09:13.120 Yeah, what is the difference. There are there a lot 152 00:09:13.120 --> 00:09:16.200 of working donkeys that it may be not treated fairly 153 00:09:16.279 --> 00:09:17.080 or not well kept. 154 00:09:17.759 --> 00:09:20.519 I mean, the vast majority of donkeys in the world 155 00:09:20.759 --> 00:09:25.120 are working animals that live in the global South. So 156 00:09:25.720 --> 00:09:29.399 those donkeys are essential to the livelihoods of the people 157 00:09:29.399 --> 00:09:32.639 that rely on them, so very commonly found in Sub 158 00:09:32.639 --> 00:09:37.480 Saharan Africa, South Asia, parts of Central and southern America, 159 00:09:38.320 --> 00:09:41.000 and those donkeys will be engaged in all kinds of 160 00:09:41.039 --> 00:09:45.720 household activities and sometimes, sadly, we do see donkeys that 161 00:09:45.799 --> 00:09:50.039 need help. That's often because of a lack of information 162 00:09:50.799 --> 00:09:54.279 or very often that the owner and the family are 163 00:09:54.320 --> 00:09:58.600 struggling for income themselves. They're living tough lives as well 164 00:09:58.639 --> 00:10:04.200 as their donkeys. So it's often about helping provide support 165 00:10:04.399 --> 00:10:10.360 and education, helping with basic things like footcare and making 166 00:10:10.399 --> 00:10:13.840 sure a cart works well for a donkey, But those 167 00:10:14.000 --> 00:10:16.879 animals are an absolute lifeline for those families. 168 00:10:17.159 --> 00:10:19.639 Okay, just a little recap. Donkeys have been domesticated for 169 00:10:19.639 --> 00:10:23.600 around seven thousand years. They are not big party herd animals, 170 00:10:23.840 --> 00:10:26.080 and they are a huge part of economies around the world. 171 00:10:26.240 --> 00:10:29.360 But right now, donkey theft is an issue, and up 172 00:10:29.360 --> 00:10:32.360 to four point eight million donkeys a year die from 173 00:10:32.440 --> 00:10:36.399 harvesting hides. To make this surprized herbal medicine out of 174 00:10:36.480 --> 00:10:39.720 donkey gelatin, and Faith and the Donkey Sanctuary have been 175 00:10:39.759 --> 00:10:43.799 working on researching that and supporting legislation to protect these animals. 176 00:10:43.879 --> 00:10:45.879 But on a brighter note, you shall also know that 177 00:10:46.159 --> 00:10:50.159 in some alpine regions, when baby lambs can't make it 178 00:10:50.240 --> 00:10:53.519 down a mountain into the lowland pastures, the shepherds have 179 00:10:53.600 --> 00:10:57.200 donkey nannies or mule nannies, and a mule or a 180 00:10:57.240 --> 00:11:00.480 donkey will wear like a pocketed smock and they'll carry 181 00:11:00.480 --> 00:11:03.720 the lambs down the mountain like if you had cargo 182 00:11:03.840 --> 00:11:07.399 pants stuffed with baby bunnies to get them to safety. 183 00:11:07.679 --> 00:11:11.320 It's a beautiful thing. How did you intersect your life 184 00:11:11.320 --> 00:11:14.440 with donkeys? Did you have a pet donkey? And then 185 00:11:14.480 --> 00:11:17.600 you're like, I'm in love with the donkeys because they're 186 00:11:17.600 --> 00:11:18.360 so lovable. 187 00:11:18.879 --> 00:11:22.519 They are lovable, and I've always loved animals from the 188 00:11:22.559 --> 00:11:25.960 moment I was big enough to understand what they were. 189 00:11:26.039 --> 00:11:30.960 But I visited the Donkey Sanctuary when I was seven, oh, 190 00:11:31.000 --> 00:11:35.639 and I fell in love with the Donkey Sanctuary and 191 00:11:35.840 --> 00:11:41.159 their donkeys. But my life then took on a different path, 192 00:11:41.320 --> 00:11:46.039 and I never dreamed i'd worked with donkeys, but many 193 00:11:46.159 --> 00:11:51.120 years past, and I ended up then spending some time 194 00:11:51.159 --> 00:11:54.519 in America, in Tennessee, of all places, working with mules 195 00:11:54.960 --> 00:11:57.919 and fell in love with them as well. And then 196 00:11:58.279 --> 00:12:02.120 in my early mid twenties, I saw a job and 197 00:12:02.200 --> 00:12:05.279 the rest is history. So that's well over twenty years 198 00:12:05.320 --> 00:12:10.240 ago now, so it's been a lifelong addiction to donkeys. 199 00:12:10.639 --> 00:12:12.600 I just realized your last name is Burden and they 200 00:12:12.600 --> 00:12:15.559 are called Visa Burden. Did that must people must talk 201 00:12:15.600 --> 00:12:17.679 to you about that all the time they do. 202 00:12:18.240 --> 00:12:24.879 It was obviously a complete coincidence, But yeah, isn't it funny? 203 00:12:25.120 --> 00:12:32.279 Vista Burden? And I think it's called nominative determinism, And 204 00:12:32.679 --> 00:12:35.759 of course donkeys are really linked with religion as well. 205 00:12:35.879 --> 00:12:40.799 So my first name faith is somewhat linked to But 206 00:12:40.960 --> 00:12:44.120 I just think it was destined to be from being 207 00:12:44.120 --> 00:12:46.240 that seven year old that fell in love with some 208 00:12:46.559 --> 00:12:51.039 long ears and you know a place of wonder, and yeah, 209 00:12:51.080 --> 00:12:54.120 I could never change my name, No, keep it forever. 210 00:12:55.399 --> 00:12:59.000 So yes, Egwards and donkeys have been the animals that 211 00:12:59.120 --> 00:13:02.639 humans he al for heavy work for thousands of years. 212 00:13:02.960 --> 00:13:07.600 And do remember when some folks cite the Bible as fact, 213 00:13:07.720 --> 00:13:10.919 like in a political context, that the Bible does contain 214 00:13:10.960 --> 00:13:14.240 a passage about a talking donkey. So setting aside the 215 00:13:14.279 --> 00:13:18.759 fact that a donkey started talking from a narrative standpoint, though, 216 00:13:18.759 --> 00:13:22.320 this biblical passage is about the abuse and exploitation of 217 00:13:22.360 --> 00:13:25.759 those less fortunate, and God saying to this donkey's owner, 218 00:13:25.960 --> 00:13:28.759 who's flogging it, like, you'll be nicer to that donkey. 219 00:13:28.799 --> 00:13:31.480 You're being a dick. So yeah, just a casual talking 220 00:13:31.519 --> 00:13:34.559 donkey reference, but also defending the downtrodden who knew that 221 00:13:34.679 --> 00:13:36.960 was in there? And so did you ever dream that 222 00:13:36.960 --> 00:13:39.799 you would be kind of you know, the head of 223 00:13:39.879 --> 00:13:40.559 the donkeys? 224 00:13:40.919 --> 00:13:46.960 No, no, never, never, But what a wonderful place to 225 00:13:47.039 --> 00:13:51.720 find yourself. I'm a scientist by training. I've always been 226 00:13:51.759 --> 00:13:54.320 interested in the natural world and how it all works, 227 00:13:55.159 --> 00:13:58.559 So the science part of what I do is really important, 228 00:13:58.840 --> 00:14:01.679 and certainly that was always my main name, was to 229 00:14:02.240 --> 00:14:05.440 help people to understand donkeys and what they need from us. 230 00:14:05.639 --> 00:14:08.320 Yeah, what kind of science were you studying or what's 231 00:14:08.360 --> 00:14:09.399 your science background. 232 00:14:09.639 --> 00:14:14.440 I was a microbiologist and a virologist, So originally my 233 00:14:14.799 --> 00:14:18.840 PhD was looking at infectious diseases that were transferred between 234 00:14:18.879 --> 00:14:22.000 people and animals. But I got a little bit tired 235 00:14:22.039 --> 00:14:27.480 of lab work and white coats and centrifuges became a 236 00:14:27.519 --> 00:14:30.399 bit tiresome, so I decided to take some time out 237 00:14:30.600 --> 00:14:33.120 and go and see what donkeys had to offer. 238 00:14:33.720 --> 00:14:36.279 And she has a lot to offer Donkeys clearly, with 239 00:14:36.399 --> 00:14:41.039 over fifty published papers, including hits such as Objective Assessment 240 00:14:41.080 --> 00:14:43.720 of Chronic Pain and Donkeys using the Donkey Chronic Pain 241 00:14:43.759 --> 00:14:48.320 Scale and belief in animal sentience and effective owner attitudes 242 00:14:48.360 --> 00:14:51.919 are linked to positive working ECUAD welfare across six countries 243 00:14:52.480 --> 00:14:55.399 and the welfare and access to veterinary health services of 244 00:14:55.480 --> 00:14:59.159 mules working in the mountain trails of Nepal. Also, she's 245 00:14:59.159 --> 00:15:02.399 got papers about the donkey skin trade. She knows her 246 00:15:02.399 --> 00:15:06.320 donkey stuff on a global level and on a micro level. 247 00:15:06.559 --> 00:15:09.120 And a lot of my early work with the Donkey 248 00:15:09.159 --> 00:15:14.679 Sanctuary was looking at infectious diseases, parasitology, nutrition, so it 249 00:15:14.799 --> 00:15:19.799 drew on much of my background. But then really this 250 00:15:19.960 --> 00:15:24.679 sort of behavior and welfare science overtook and as they say, 251 00:15:24.679 --> 00:15:25.720 the rest is history. 252 00:15:26.399 --> 00:15:31.279 Well, you mentioned how misunderstood donkeys are, and babe, that's 253 00:15:31.320 --> 00:15:32.519 why we got you here. 254 00:15:32.759 --> 00:15:33.279 Amazing. 255 00:15:33.480 --> 00:15:36.320 Let's talk donkey myths because so many people are like, 256 00:15:36.399 --> 00:15:41.080 I know you're or a Shrek, but no idea what 257 00:15:41.120 --> 00:15:44.600 they're really like, or they just know them as Beisa burden. 258 00:15:45.039 --> 00:15:48.200 So what's like some big flimplam that you have to 259 00:15:48.279 --> 00:15:50.000 bust as a doctor. 260 00:15:50.039 --> 00:15:56.759 Donkey donkeys are stubborn or stupid. We've all heard those 261 00:15:56.879 --> 00:16:00.919 kicks like a mule or stubborn as a donkey. Donkeys 262 00:16:00.960 --> 00:16:05.120 are not stupid, and anyone that thinks donkey stupid has 263 00:16:05.200 --> 00:16:10.559 simply been outwitted by them. That's what normally happens. So 264 00:16:11.840 --> 00:16:17.320 we always judge donkeys by what we know about horses. 265 00:16:17.840 --> 00:16:22.000 We're all brought up with Western films and horses in battle, 266 00:16:22.200 --> 00:16:26.679 and they're fast and incredibly expressive animals, aren't they. And 267 00:16:26.720 --> 00:16:29.200 then we think the donkey is like a small horse 268 00:16:29.200 --> 00:16:33.039 with big ears, and we can't understand why it doesn't 269 00:16:33.080 --> 00:16:35.960 go when we ask it to. We can't understand why 270 00:16:36.120 --> 00:16:42.080 it says no. And actually donkeys don't run away from problems. 271 00:16:42.519 --> 00:16:47.879 That's part of their evolutionary background. Donkeys will stand and 272 00:16:47.919 --> 00:16:50.279 they will consider what's in front of them, so they 273 00:16:50.320 --> 00:16:53.320 will think, is it in my best interest to run away? 274 00:16:53.360 --> 00:16:56.840 And I might do that, But more often what happens 275 00:16:56.919 --> 00:17:01.000 is they're either freeze or they fight, which again is 276 00:17:01.080 --> 00:17:06.119 that whole kind of misconception that donkeys can be quite feisty. 277 00:17:06.359 --> 00:17:11.279 They can kick, you know, it's absolutely natural behavior for 278 00:17:11.319 --> 00:17:15.839 the species that they are. They're calm, they're thoughtful, and 279 00:17:16.400 --> 00:17:20.200 if you wanted to put your most precious cargo on 280 00:17:20.279 --> 00:17:22.839 the back of any animal, put it on a donkey 281 00:17:22.920 --> 00:17:25.519 or a mule, really, because it will be safe because 282 00:17:25.559 --> 00:17:30.200 they're really, really calm and think about what they're going 283 00:17:30.240 --> 00:17:32.839 to do before they do it, whereas a horse is, 284 00:17:33.039 --> 00:17:37.119 you know, it's long up the dusty road before it's realized. 285 00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:39.880 There's nothing worse running away from when are you're running 286 00:17:39.880 --> 00:17:43.920 from nothing? So you know, donkeys have just been judged 287 00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:48.759 by the wrong standards. Really, and I'm afraid what we see. 288 00:17:48.839 --> 00:17:52.720 You mentioned it, you're and you mentioned we've got Donkey 289 00:17:52.839 --> 00:17:54.880 and Shrek, and there are lots and lots of other 290 00:17:54.960 --> 00:17:59.960 depictions that probably start with Esop's fables way back when. 291 00:18:00.160 --> 00:18:02.200 You might have seen a house flat, maybe even a 292 00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:04.920 super flat, but I bet you ain't never seen a 293 00:18:05.119 --> 00:18:05.880 donkey flat. 294 00:18:07.359 --> 00:18:12.039 And they portrayed donkeys in that stubborn, slow, stupid way 295 00:18:12.720 --> 00:18:15.079 or pessimistic, at least in the case of Eviel. 296 00:18:16.400 --> 00:18:18.240 Not much of a house. 297 00:18:19.640 --> 00:18:22.240 Just right for not much of a donkey. 298 00:18:22.720 --> 00:18:25.319 And we've all grown up with that, haven't we. Yeah, 299 00:18:25.319 --> 00:18:29.079 we've had that since the cartoon books. I'm sure some 300 00:18:29.160 --> 00:18:32.039 of your listeners will know the wonkey donkey he. 301 00:18:32.359 --> 00:18:38.759 Was he wonkey donkey, wanky donkey, wangy donkey. 302 00:18:39.039 --> 00:18:42.960 Okay, And it's just all of those terrible stereotypes about 303 00:18:43.000 --> 00:18:47.599 an ugly donkey that braze and is stupid. And you know, 304 00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:52.119 we just set the wrong standards. The Egyptians knew far 305 00:18:52.200 --> 00:18:55.759 better the value of donkeys and the Romans, but sadly 306 00:18:55.839 --> 00:18:58.160 we've somehow lost that in our culture. 307 00:18:58.359 --> 00:19:01.880 You know, what about their emotion? Are they very affectionate 308 00:19:02.279 --> 00:19:05.319 animals or can you read the emotions of a donkey 309 00:19:05.359 --> 00:19:07.720 and kind of know what they're feeling. 310 00:19:08.440 --> 00:19:11.519 Yeah, so donkeys are really emotional if you know what 311 00:19:11.559 --> 00:19:15.240 you're looking for. So we always say that donkeys are 312 00:19:15.319 --> 00:19:19.279 very subtle in their behavior. Very often, and a really 313 00:19:19.279 --> 00:19:24.240 good example is that donkey's pair bond very strongly. So 314 00:19:25.160 --> 00:19:29.400 a donkey will often have one special companion for its 315 00:19:29.440 --> 00:19:34.920 whole life, and unfortunately, if one half of the pair goes, 316 00:19:35.039 --> 00:19:39.400 they will grieve about their lost friend. But similarly, they 317 00:19:39.440 --> 00:19:42.640 can also recognize donkeys that they might have met, you know, 318 00:19:43.279 --> 00:19:47.559 years decades ago, and they can express the joy of 319 00:19:47.599 --> 00:19:52.920 being reunited. And there is nothing more wonderful than a 320 00:19:53.000 --> 00:19:59.279 joyful donkey brain, you know, really loudly, but also just 321 00:19:59.480 --> 00:20:04.599 showing that excitement. But very often in day to day 322 00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:08.720 normal times, donkeys are quiet, they're you know, patient, and 323 00:20:08.759 --> 00:20:12.759 they don't move fast, and they don't waste energy. And 324 00:20:12.799 --> 00:20:17.240 again it goes back to their evolutionary background that these 325 00:20:17.279 --> 00:20:21.000 are animals living in deserts where the temperatures are you know, 326 00:20:21.039 --> 00:20:24.680 in the forties. You don't waste energy. You don't waste water, 327 00:20:25.400 --> 00:20:28.880 and you don't draw attention to yourself because otherwise you're 328 00:20:28.880 --> 00:20:32.119 going to be somebody's next meal. You know, it's important 329 00:20:32.160 --> 00:20:35.279 that we understand they do express themselves, but at the 330 00:20:35.400 --> 00:20:38.160 right time and in the way that suits them. 331 00:20:38.720 --> 00:20:42.079 Is that bray that you mentioned. You know how for me, 332 00:20:42.160 --> 00:20:44.640 I don't have children, so when I hear a baby 333 00:20:44.839 --> 00:20:47.000 making noise, I think it's in distress, and then I'll 334 00:20:47.039 --> 00:20:48.559 look and I'll be like, oh, it's playing, you know what, 335 00:20:49.000 --> 00:20:51.319 Like yeah, or if it's your own kid, I'm sure 336 00:20:51.359 --> 00:20:53.119 some people are like, I know exactly what that means. 337 00:20:53.519 --> 00:20:57.640 Can you kind of tell different emotions through the brain. 338 00:20:58.079 --> 00:21:02.559 Definitely, So they have a huge spectrum of noises. So 339 00:21:02.920 --> 00:21:04.960 bray is the one that we know most, but there's 340 00:21:05.039 --> 00:21:13.880 also snorts and whiffles, and they can mean different things. 341 00:21:13.960 --> 00:21:17.640 So friends greeting each other, you can tell when two 342 00:21:17.720 --> 00:21:20.880 males that don't particularly like each other meet each other, 343 00:21:21.400 --> 00:21:24.839 but also when they're trying to seek affection or food 344 00:21:25.240 --> 00:21:29.559 very often, and you can often tell which bray belongs 345 00:21:29.599 --> 00:21:33.240 to which member of the herd. So they're quite individual 346 00:21:33.319 --> 00:21:37.799 as well, and certainly our donkey careers that get to 347 00:21:37.839 --> 00:21:41.000 know their animals really really well. You know, they could 348 00:21:41.039 --> 00:21:45.839 probably say that's Alfred waiting for his dinner at five 349 00:21:45.880 --> 00:21:51.799 o'clock and we're two minutes late. So they are all individuals, 350 00:21:52.640 --> 00:21:55.319 but some of them are very noisy and they know 351 00:21:55.359 --> 00:21:56.960 how to express themselves. 352 00:21:57.480 --> 00:22:00.480 I've seen those videos where I think there's one in 353 00:22:00.519 --> 00:22:03.319 particular where a girl comes back to the farm she's 354 00:22:03.319 --> 00:22:06.279 been gone for a bit, and a donkey just freaks 355 00:22:06.319 --> 00:22:10.720 out the so happy to see her. Is that kind 356 00:22:10.759 --> 00:22:12.759 of common when you feel like you greet donkeys or 357 00:22:12.759 --> 00:22:13.720 when you've been away. 358 00:22:14.920 --> 00:22:19.279 Donkeys know their primary care as really well, and mules 359 00:22:19.400 --> 00:22:23.039 to get very attached to certain people, and they will 360 00:22:23.200 --> 00:22:27.160 greet an individual and they will get incredibly excited about 361 00:22:27.240 --> 00:22:31.839 seeing that individual. It's not every donkey, it's not every relationship, 362 00:22:32.279 --> 00:22:35.319 but you do see it. And you will also see 363 00:22:35.680 --> 00:22:39.400 if an animal has had to be given up by 364 00:22:39.559 --> 00:22:43.640 caring owners that then come and visit that animal. You can, 365 00:22:43.720 --> 00:22:48.319 in certain circumstances see just such emotion on both sides 366 00:22:48.359 --> 00:22:52.079 to be back together again. And of course that's all 367 00:22:52.119 --> 00:22:55.920 to do with you know, donkeys are masters of social 368 00:22:56.799 --> 00:23:00.799 bonding and behavior, and they are really good at communicating, 369 00:23:00.839 --> 00:23:03.440 not just with each other, but with us, if we listen. 370 00:23:04.119 --> 00:23:06.559 I've heard that some of them have good senses of humor. 371 00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:08.680 Do you ever get tricked by a donkey and you're like, 372 00:23:08.720 --> 00:23:09.799 that's a very good one. 373 00:23:10.720 --> 00:23:10.920 Ah. 374 00:23:11.160 --> 00:23:14.720 Humors are very sort of human trait, isn't it, And 375 00:23:14.759 --> 00:23:19.559 we do try not to answerpomorphosize. But there are occasions 376 00:23:19.799 --> 00:23:23.960 where I think donkey at least enjoys getting a reaction. 377 00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:29.720 So I can remember when I first started to really 378 00:23:29.720 --> 00:23:32.839 work with donkeys. I used to have a big, heavy 379 00:23:32.960 --> 00:23:37.160 jacket for the winter, and it had elasticated toggles on 380 00:23:37.279 --> 00:23:42.880 the side, and donkeys would really enjoy pulling on the toggle. 381 00:23:43.480 --> 00:23:45.920 And of course they all got an out because those 382 00:23:45.960 --> 00:23:49.559 things really hurt when you get stuck with them multiple 383 00:23:49.599 --> 00:23:52.680 times in a day. So I think, you know, there 384 00:23:52.680 --> 00:23:55.519 are examples of that, and the donkey that opens the 385 00:23:55.559 --> 00:23:58.960 gate to let everybody else out. Obviously there's an advantage 386 00:23:59.000 --> 00:24:04.519 to them, but sometimes you do wonder they certainly enjoy 387 00:24:05.200 --> 00:24:07.720 the reaction that they're getting from us, setting. 388 00:24:07.720 --> 00:24:10.720 I think that counts as humor. I feel like when 389 00:24:10.759 --> 00:24:13.519 someone's funny, you know they're smart and clever, so it's 390 00:24:13.599 --> 00:24:18.960 just cleverness. Yeah, reality, I'm actually very fun, relaxed and 391 00:24:19.079 --> 00:24:24.039 easy going. You mentioned mules, and let us disambiguate, because 392 00:24:24.079 --> 00:24:27.319 a mule, from what I understand it is a hybrid 393 00:24:27.319 --> 00:24:30.440 of a horse and a donkey, but it can't reproduce. 394 00:24:30.720 --> 00:24:33.240 So does that mean every mule is just a one 395 00:24:33.279 --> 00:24:34.640 off collaboration? 396 00:24:35.200 --> 00:24:35.559 Yeah? 397 00:24:35.720 --> 00:24:38.359 Why do some people have mules instead of donkeys? 398 00:24:38.839 --> 00:24:43.799 Great questions? So mules are the cross of a horse 399 00:24:43.880 --> 00:24:48.240 or pony mother and a donkey father. There is another 400 00:24:48.279 --> 00:24:51.279 one which people know much less about, which is the hinnie, 401 00:24:51.839 --> 00:24:55.880