Speaker 1: Oh hey, it's that classroom desk chair that cracks your
Speaker 1: back perfectly. This is ali word, This is ologies. This
Speaker 1: is a show in which we cover one ology every episode.
Speaker 1: And friends, I know that you love donkeys already because
Speaker 1: we truly got like a tidal wave of questions for
Speaker 1: this one and happened to chat with the loveliest donkey
Speaker 1: expert we could find. This is such a chill conversation
Speaker 1: and cuddly and calming and informative. It was like sitting
Speaker 1: on a covered porch with a tea and a plate
Speaker 1: of cookies. You just keep eating while they talked about
Speaker 1: interesting donkey facts. And this ologist is the director of
Speaker 1: research and operational support at the nonprofit the Donkey Sanctuary,
Speaker 1: and it's been there for over two decades, researching, caring for,
Speaker 1: and advocating for donkeys. They're an author on dozens of
Speaker 1: donkey and mule research papers, as well as having a
Speaker 1: micro biological background, which we talk about. They were just
Speaker 1: made for this work and they love it. So we'll
Speaker 1: meet them in a minute. But thank you first to
Speaker 1: patrons of the show who make it possible. You two
Speaker 1: can join for as little as a dollar a month,
Speaker 1: and for free We also have shorter kid friends the
Speaker 1: episodes of ologies in their own feed. They're called Somologies
Speaker 1: sm l O g I S found wherever you get
Speaker 1: your podcasts Ologies Merch is available for your body at
Speaker 1: ologiesmerch dot com. And you can always support ologies by
Speaker 1: just leaving us a review, which helps so much it
Speaker 1: gets to show up in the charts and gets it
Speaker 1: seen each week. I kick this off by reading a
Speaker 1: recent one such as this from Lori two four seven four,
Speaker 1: who callologies charming, educational, and highly addictive. Treat yourself to
Speaker 1: an engaging conversation with experts at a level that doesn't
Speaker 1: belittle you or leave you lost in jargon. Also right
Speaker 1: amount of swearing. I appreciate that, and that is affirming. Okay.
Speaker 1: Asinology it comes from the Latin word asinus. It means ass,
Speaker 1: which means donkey. Donkey itself may come from an old
Speaker 1: word meaning dull brown, but that's been debated. But ass,
Speaker 1: as in your ass is gonna love. This episode came
Speaker 1: much later, and that was derived from the British arse,
Speaker 1: which came from a word for tail, a rump. We
Speaker 1: do also discuss rumps in this episode. I think you'll
Speaker 1: appreciate it, So take a long drink of water, saddle
Speaker 1: up for big ears, milky baths, Emperor gossip, squats for
Speaker 1: donkey kicks. How much weight can a beast of burden bear? Mule? Genetics,
Speaker 1: zoos sexism, How to care for a donkey? Where to
Speaker 1: pet a donkey? What their noises mean? And heads up,
Speaker 1: we do have donkey noises in here, so do not
Speaker 1: be startled. They're happy donkeys as well as what a
Speaker 1: donkey eats? What's up with those teeth? Donkeys on film?
Speaker 1: And busting so much flimflam with researcher director of research
Speaker 1: and operational support and nonprofit The Donkey Sanctuary, Friend to
Speaker 1: Donkeys Worldwide and acidologist doctor Faith Burden.
Speaker 2: Faith button and she, huh.
Speaker 1: You are are the way in the UK?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 1: Indeed, where exactly are donkeys? Do you know where are
Speaker 1: they from from?
Speaker 2: Yeah? So the donkey's ancestor is actually from East Africa,
Speaker 2: So the mountains and deserts of Ethiopia, Eritrea, Sudan, So
Speaker 2: a long long way away from the UK or the US.
Speaker 1: How long have they been kind of all over the world?
Speaker 1: At what point did people start saying donkeys I can
Speaker 1: get some donkeys over here.
Speaker 2: So donkeys were first domesticated about seven thousand years ago
Speaker 2: we think in East Africa, and they then slowly made
Speaker 2: their way up to Egypt, where they were a really
Speaker 2: important part of Egyptian ancient society. And from there they
Speaker 2: gradually spread across the world, particularly helped both by the
Speaker 2: Romans but also various explorers. So donkeys made their way
Speaker 2: to the America's in about the fifteenth century. So actually
Speaker 2: their history with us is quite recent, but it all
Speaker 2: began in the deserts and mountains of East Africa.
Speaker 1: So, yes, Equus asinus was domesticated from the wild African
Speaker 1: ass and it's a stunning creature with this strong jaw,
Speaker 1: it's got a stout frame, and this really beautiful pewter
Speaker 1: colored velveteen looking coat. And yes, donkeys have been our
Speaker 1: friends and tools for millennia. According to researchers of the
Speaker 1: twenty twenty two paper the Genomic History and Global Expansion
Speaker 1: of Domestic Donkeys in the Journal Science, domesticated in Africa
Speaker 1: went all around, came back to Africa. But before donkeys
Speaker 1: made that world tour genetically, in.
Speaker 2: Ancient Egypt, donkeys were originally used for meat and milk. Oh,
Speaker 2: and then they started to become a working animal, but
Speaker 2: very much a well respected ceremonial animal.
Speaker 1: Oh.
Speaker 2: So you actually can find a number of donkey skeletons
Speaker 2: that were buried along very high ranking noble people. So
Speaker 2: it was a real surprise when they opened up a
Speaker 2: tomb not long ago that was dedicated I believe to
Speaker 2: a cyrus, and in one of the king's tombs next
Speaker 2: door were donkey skeletons. So in Egypt, the donkey was
Speaker 2: very much associated with wealth and nobility and was a
Speaker 2: really respected and rivid animal.
Speaker 1: Okay, so there's at least all of you who want
Speaker 1: more in fine this, so please see the twenty twenty
Speaker 1: four paper Donkey's Genies and Demons Fantastical Creatures in Ancient
Speaker 1: Egyptian ritual Texts and Funery Assemblages, which notes that the
Speaker 1: donkey was depicted in ancient tomb scenes since the Old Kingdom,
Speaker 1: which was roughly five thousand years ago, and it represented
Speaker 1: an ambivalent creature that could either assist in the nately
Speaker 1: journey of the ancient sun god or it could be
Speaker 1: a malevolent force. It could go either way, like a
Speaker 1: cat or something that loves you and then tries to
Speaker 1: kill you. You mentioned that from the deserts. Is that
Speaker 1: why they have such big years like athena farct kind.
Speaker 2: Of yeah, really absolutely, So the donkey is adapted. Its
Speaker 2: ancestor is a desert dwelling animal, so it has lots
Speaker 2: and lots of adaptations, particularly the years, that's what we
Speaker 2: all notice. So they help not only to dissipate heat,
Speaker 2: but they're also fantastic for communication over really large expanses
Speaker 2: because in the ancestors natural environment, donkeys don't live in
Speaker 2: hurtz so unlike horses, where we all know that horses
Speaker 2: like to gather in hurts, the donkey's' ancestors live either
Speaker 2: alone or in very very small groups, so they need
Speaker 2: to communicate. And that's why the donkey's bray is so amazing.
Speaker 2: Travels for kilometers, but the years really important to.
Speaker 1: We're going to communicate to you more about their communication
Speaker 1: in a bit, but first let's crunch some numbers. You
Speaker 1: now have a donkey sanctuary. You are the mother to donkeys,
Speaker 1: if you will.
Speaker 3: I'm a mom, mama, sida.
Speaker 1: How many donkeys are in your care?
Speaker 2: So in the Donkey Sanctuary's care, we have six thousand
Speaker 2: two hundred donkeys that are in our ownership. About four
Speaker 2: thousand of those are in our direct care, and then
Speaker 2: we've got two thousand that live out in wonderful guardian
Speaker 2: homes that look after them in private homes. So we
Speaker 2: have thousands of donkeys. They're all amazing and it's such
Speaker 2: a privilege to work with them and care for them.
Speaker 1: So where are their origins? Typically, do you take in
Speaker 1: a lot of working donkeys that are retired or maybe
Speaker 1: that had been mistreated. I know that donkey welfare is
Speaker 1: like the cornerstone of your life, that's right, and so
Speaker 1: are a lot of your donkeys.
Speaker 2: From a complete mix. So, sadly, we still see lots
Speaker 2: of cases of neglect. So we still take in animals
Speaker 2: that have been abandoned or have been treated very badly.
Speaker 2: We also taking animals that have got significant behavioral issues
Speaker 2: that need rehabilitation, medical issues, and sadly we do see
Speaker 2: the issue of donkeys outliving their owners. So donkeys live
Speaker 2: a very long time, really, they can live into their thirties,
Speaker 2: and unfortunately sometimes their human careers can't look after them
Speaker 2: for their life. So we're trying to help people to
Speaker 2: understand that a donkey's lifetime is long and it's a
Speaker 2: big commitment, so we sometimes step in in those circumstances.
Speaker 2: But certainly in Europe there are not that many working
Speaker 2: donkeys anymore, sometimes in tourism, sometimes in small scale agriculture,
Speaker 2: but most of the donkeys that come into our sanctuaries
Speaker 2: at least will have been companions and pets. But it's
Speaker 2: very different to the work that we do internationally with
Speaker 2: working donkeys.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what is the difference. There are there a lot
Speaker 1: of working donkeys that it may be not treated fairly
Speaker 1: or not well kept.
Speaker 2: I mean, the vast majority of donkeys in the world
Speaker 2: are working animals that live in the global South. So
Speaker 2: those donkeys are essential to the livelihoods of the people
Speaker 2: that rely on them, so very commonly found in Sub
Speaker 2: Saharan Africa, South Asia, parts of Central and southern America,
Speaker 2: and those donkeys will be engaged in all kinds of
Speaker 2: household activities and sometimes, sadly, we do see donkeys that
Speaker 2: need help. That's often because of a lack of information
Speaker 2: or very often that the owner and the family are
Speaker 2: struggling for income themselves. They're living tough lives as well
Speaker 2: as their donkeys. So it's often about helping provide support
Speaker 2: and education, helping with basic things like footcare and making
Speaker 2: sure a cart works well for a donkey, But those
Speaker 2: animals are an absolute lifeline for those families.
Speaker 1: Okay, just a little recap. Donkeys have been domesticated for
Speaker 1: around seven thousand years. They are not big party herd animals,
Speaker 1: and they are a huge part of economies around the world.
Speaker 1: But right now, donkey theft is an issue, and up
Speaker 1: to four point eight million donkeys a year die from
Speaker 1: harvesting hides. To make this surprized herbal medicine out of
Speaker 1: donkey gelatin, and Faith and the Donkey Sanctuary have been
Speaker 1: working on researching that and supporting legislation to protect these animals.
Speaker 1: But on a brighter note, you shall also know that
Speaker 1: in some alpine regions, when baby lambs can't make it
Speaker 1: down a mountain into the lowland pastures, the shepherds have
Speaker 1: donkey nannies or mule nannies, and a mule or a
Speaker 1: donkey will wear like a pocketed smock and they'll carry
Speaker 1: the lambs down the mountain like if you had cargo
Speaker 1: pants stuffed with baby bunnies to get them to safety.
Speaker 1: It's a beautiful thing. How did you intersect your life
Speaker 1: with donkeys? Did you have a pet donkey? And then
Speaker 1: you're like, I'm in love with the donkeys because they're
Speaker 1: so lovable.
Speaker 2: They are lovable, and I've always loved animals from the
Speaker 2: moment I was big enough to understand what they were.
Speaker 2: But I visited the Donkey Sanctuary when I was seven, oh,
Speaker 2: and I fell in love with the Donkey Sanctuary and
Speaker 2: their donkeys. But my life then took on a different path,
Speaker 2: and I never dreamed i'd worked with donkeys, but many
Speaker 2: years past, and I ended up then spending some time
Speaker 2: in America, in Tennessee, of all places, working with mules
Speaker 2: and fell in love with them as well. And then
Speaker 2: in my early mid twenties, I saw a job and
Speaker 2: the rest is history. So that's well over twenty years
Speaker 2: ago now, so it's been a lifelong addiction to donkeys.
Speaker 1: I just realized your last name is Burden and they
Speaker 1: are called Visa Burden. Did that must people must talk
Speaker 1: to you about that all the time they do.
Speaker 2: It was obviously a complete coincidence, But yeah, isn't it funny?
Speaker 2: Vista Burden? And I think it's called nominative determinism, And
Speaker 2: of course donkeys are really linked with religion as well.
Speaker 2: So my first name faith is somewhat linked to But
Speaker 2: I just think it was destined to be from being
Speaker 2: that seven year old that fell in love with some
Speaker 2: long ears and you know a place of wonder, and yeah,
Speaker 2: I could never change my name, No, keep it forever.
Speaker 1: So yes, Egwards and donkeys have been the animals that
Speaker 1: humans he al for heavy work for thousands of years.
Speaker 1: And do remember when some folks cite the Bible as fact,
Speaker 1: like in a political context, that the Bible does contain
Speaker 1: a passage about a talking donkey. So setting aside the
Speaker 1: fact that a donkey started talking from a narrative standpoint, though,
Speaker 1: this biblical passage is about the abuse and exploitation of
Speaker 1: those less fortunate, and God saying to this donkey's owner,
Speaker 1: who's flogging it, like, you'll be nicer to that donkey.
Speaker 1: You're being a dick. So yeah, just a casual talking
Speaker 1: donkey reference, but also defending the downtrodden who knew that
Speaker 1: was in there? And so did you ever dream that
Speaker 1: you would be kind of you know, the head of
Speaker 1: the donkeys?
Speaker 2: No, no, never, never, But what a wonderful place to
Speaker 2: find yourself. I'm a scientist by training. I've always been
Speaker 2: interested in the natural world and how it all works,
Speaker 2: So the science part of what I do is really important,
Speaker 2: and certainly that was always my main name, was to
Speaker 2: help people to understand donkeys and what they need from us.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what kind of science were you studying or what's
Speaker 1: your science background.
Speaker 2: I was a microbiologist and a virologist, So originally my
Speaker 2: PhD was looking at infectious diseases that were transferred between
Speaker 2: people and animals. But I got a little bit tired
Speaker 2: of lab work and white coats and centrifuges became a
Speaker 2: bit tiresome, so I decided to take some time out
Speaker 2: and go and see what donkeys had to offer.
Speaker 1: And she has a lot to offer Donkeys clearly, with
Speaker 1: over fifty published papers, including hits such as Objective Assessment
Speaker 1: of Chronic Pain and Donkeys using the Donkey Chronic Pain
Speaker 1: Scale and belief in animal sentience and effective owner attitudes
Speaker 1: are linked to positive working ECUAD welfare across six countries
Speaker 1: and the welfare and access to veterinary health services of
Speaker 1: mules working in the mountain trails of Nepal. Also, she's
Speaker 1: got papers about the donkey skin trade. She knows her
Speaker 1: donkey stuff on a global level and on a micro level.
Speaker 2: And a lot of my early work with the Donkey
Speaker 2: Sanctuary was looking at infectious diseases, parasitology, nutrition, so it
Speaker 2: drew on much of my background. But then really this
Speaker 2: sort of behavior and welfare science overtook and as they say,
Speaker 2: the rest is history.
Speaker 1: Well, you mentioned how misunderstood donkeys are, and babe, that's
Speaker 1: why we got you here.
Speaker 2: Amazing.
Speaker 1: Let's talk donkey myths because so many people are like,
Speaker 1: I know you're or a Shrek, but no idea what
Speaker 1: they're really like, or they just know them as Beisa burden.
Speaker 1: So what's like some big flimplam that you have to
Speaker 1: bust as a doctor.
Speaker 2: Donkey donkeys are stubborn or stupid. We've all heard those
Speaker 2: kicks like a mule or stubborn as a donkey. Donkeys
Speaker 2: are not stupid, and anyone that thinks donkey stupid has
Speaker 2: simply been outwitted by them. That's what normally happens. So
Speaker 2: we always judge donkeys by what we know about horses.
Speaker 2: We're all brought up with Western films and horses in battle,
Speaker 2: and they're fast and incredibly expressive animals, aren't they. And
Speaker 2: then we think the donkey is like a small horse
Speaker 2: with big ears, and we can't understand why it doesn't
Speaker 2: go when we ask it to. We can't understand why
Speaker 2: it says no. And actually donkeys don't run away from problems.
Speaker 2: That's part of their evolutionary background. Donkeys will stand and
Speaker 2: they will consider what's in front of them, so they
Speaker 2: will think, is it in my best interest to run away?
Speaker 2: And I might do that, But more often what happens
Speaker 2: is they're either freeze or they fight, which again is
Speaker 2: that whole kind of misconception that donkeys can be quite feisty.
Speaker 2: They can kick, you know, it's absolutely natural behavior for
Speaker 2: the species that they are. They're calm, they're thoughtful, and
Speaker 2: if you wanted to put your most precious cargo on
Speaker 2: the back of any animal, put it on a donkey
Speaker 2: or a mule, really, because it will be safe because
Speaker 2: they're really, really calm and think about what they're going
Speaker 2: to do before they do it, whereas a horse is,
Speaker 2: you know, it's long up the dusty road before it's realized.
Speaker 2: There's nothing worse running away from when are you're running
Speaker 2: from nothing? So you know, donkeys have just been judged
Speaker 2: by the wrong standards. Really, and I'm afraid what we see.
Speaker 2: You mentioned it, you're and you mentioned we've got Donkey
Speaker 2: and Shrek, and there are lots and lots of other
Speaker 2: depictions that probably start with Esop's fables way back when.
Speaker 4: You might have seen a house flat, maybe even a
Speaker 4: super flat, but I bet you ain't never seen a
Speaker 4: donkey flat.
Speaker 2: And they portrayed donkeys in that stubborn, slow, stupid way
Speaker 2: or pessimistic, at least in the case of Eviel.
Speaker 4: Not much of a house.
Speaker 1: Just right for not much of a donkey.
Speaker 2: And we've all grown up with that, haven't we. Yeah,
Speaker 2: we've had that since the cartoon books. I'm sure some
Speaker 2: of your listeners will know the wonkey donkey he.
Speaker 1: Was he wonkey donkey, wanky donkey, wangy donkey.
Speaker 2: Okay, And it's just all of those terrible stereotypes about
Speaker 2: an ugly donkey that braze and is stupid. And you know,
Speaker 2: we just set the wrong standards. The Egyptians knew far
Speaker 2: better the value of donkeys and the Romans, but sadly
Speaker 2: we've somehow lost that in our culture.
Speaker 1: You know, what about their emotion? Are they very affectionate
Speaker 1: animals or can you read the emotions of a donkey
Speaker 1: and kind of know what they're feeling.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so donkeys are really emotional if you know what
Speaker 2: you're looking for. So we always say that donkeys are
Speaker 2: very subtle in their behavior. Very often, and a really
Speaker 2: good example is that donkey's pair bond very strongly. So
Speaker 2: a donkey will often have one special companion for its
Speaker 2: whole life, and unfortunately, if one half of the pair goes,
Speaker 2: they will grieve about their lost friend. But similarly, they
Speaker 2: can also recognize donkeys that they might have met, you know,
Speaker 2: years decades ago, and they can express the joy of
Speaker 2: being reunited. And there is nothing more wonderful than a
Speaker 2: joyful donkey brain, you know, really loudly, but also just
Speaker 2: showing that excitement. But very often in day to day
Speaker 2: normal times, donkeys are quiet, they're you know, patient, and
Speaker 2: they don't move fast, and they don't waste energy. And
Speaker 2: again it goes back to their evolutionary background that these
Speaker 2: are animals living in deserts where the temperatures are you know,
Speaker 2: in the forties. You don't waste energy. You don't waste water,
Speaker 2: and you don't draw attention to yourself because otherwise you're
Speaker 2: going to be somebody's next meal. You know, it's important
Speaker 2: that we understand they do express themselves, but at the
Speaker 2: right time and in the way that suits them.
Speaker 1: Is that bray that you mentioned. You know how for me,
Speaker 1: I don't have children, so when I hear a baby
Speaker 1: making noise, I think it's in distress, and then I'll
Speaker 1: look and I'll be like, oh, it's playing, you know what,
Speaker 1: Like yeah, or if it's your own kid, I'm sure
Speaker 1: some people are like, I know exactly what that means.
Speaker 1: Can you kind of tell different emotions through the brain.
Speaker 2: Definitely, So they have a huge spectrum of noises. So
Speaker 2: bray is the one that we know most, but there's
Speaker 2: also snorts and whiffles, and they can mean different things.
Speaker 2: So friends greeting each other, you can tell when two
Speaker 2: males that don't particularly like each other meet each other,
Speaker 2: but also when they're trying to seek affection or food
Speaker 2: very often, and you can often tell which bray belongs
Speaker 2: to which member of the herd. So they're quite individual
Speaker 2: as well, and certainly our donkey careers that get to
Speaker 2: know their animals really really well. You know, they could
Speaker 2: probably say that's Alfred waiting for his dinner at five
Speaker 2: o'clock and we're two minutes late. So they are all individuals,
Speaker 2: but some of them are very noisy and they know
Speaker 2: how to express themselves.
Speaker 1: I've seen those videos where I think there's one in
Speaker 1: particular where a girl comes back to the farm she's
Speaker 1: been gone for a bit, and a donkey just freaks
Speaker 1: out the so happy to see her. Is that kind
Speaker 1: of common when you feel like you greet donkeys or
Speaker 1: when you've been away.
Speaker 2: Donkeys know their primary care as really well, and mules
Speaker 2: to get very attached to certain people, and they will
Speaker 2: greet an individual and they will get incredibly excited about
Speaker 2: seeing that individual. It's not every donkey, it's not every relationship,
Speaker 2: but you do see it. And you will also see
Speaker 2: if an animal has had to be given up by
Speaker 2: caring owners that then come and visit that animal. You can,
Speaker 2: in certain circumstances see just such emotion on both sides
Speaker 2: to be back together again. And of course that's all
Speaker 2: to do with you know, donkeys are masters of social
Speaker 2: bonding and behavior, and they are really good at communicating,
Speaker 2: not just with each other, but with us, if we listen.
Speaker 1: I've heard that some of them have good senses of humor.
Speaker 1: Do you ever get tricked by a donkey and you're like,
Speaker 1: that's a very good one.
Speaker 5: Ah.
Speaker 2: Humors are very sort of human trait, isn't it, And
Speaker 2: we do try not to answerpomorphosize. But there are occasions
Speaker 2: where I think donkey at least enjoys getting a reaction.
Speaker 2: So I can remember when I first started to really
Speaker 2: work with donkeys. I used to have a big, heavy
Speaker 2: jacket for the winter, and it had elasticated toggles on
Speaker 2: the side, and donkeys would really enjoy pulling on the toggle.
Speaker 2: And of course they all got an out because those
Speaker 2: things really hurt when you get stuck with them multiple
Speaker 2: times in a day. So I think, you know, there
Speaker 2: are examples of that, and the donkey that opens the
Speaker 2: gate to let everybody else out. Obviously there's an advantage
Speaker 2: to them, but sometimes you do wonder they certainly enjoy
Speaker 2: the reaction that they're getting from us, setting.
Speaker 1: I think that counts as humor. I feel like when
Speaker 1: someone's funny, you know they're smart and clever, so it's
Speaker 1: just cleverness. Yeah, reality, I'm actually very fun, relaxed and
Speaker 1: easy going. You mentioned mules, and let us disambiguate, because
Speaker 1: a mule, from what I understand it is a hybrid
Speaker 1: of a horse and a donkey, but it can't reproduce.
Speaker 1: So does that mean every mule is just a one
Speaker 1: off collaboration?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Why do some people have mules instead of donkeys?
Speaker 2: Great questions? So mules are the cross of a horse
Speaker 2: or pony mother and a donkey father. There is another
Speaker 2: one which people know much less about, which is the hinnie,
Speaker 2: where the mother is a donkey and the father is
Speaker 2: a horse pony. Much less known about much of them,
Speaker 2: but still happens. So there is an uneven number of
Speaker 2: chromosomes between horses and donkeys. So horses have got sixty four,
Speaker 2: donkeys have got sixty two, which means that you get
Speaker 2: an uneven number, which means the resulting offspring is sterile.
Speaker 2: So that ninety nine point nine to nine percent means
Speaker 2: that a mule or a hinney cannot reproduce. So it's
Speaker 2: a really good question. Why do people have them. Mules
Speaker 2: possess hybrid vigor both physically and mentally, so they have
Speaker 2: often increased size and speed as compared to a donkey,
Speaker 2: but they have the calmness and the toughness of the donkey.
Speaker 2: So in a mule, you've got an animal that can
Speaker 2: go longer distances, is normally very disease resistant, tends to
Speaker 2: carry more in weight than either a donkey or a horse,
Speaker 2: and has a speed between the two. They are also
Speaker 2: wonderfully intelligent, which is both an amazing trait for human
Speaker 2: beings but has also caused some confusion and concern. I
Speaker 2: think it's best to say and.
Speaker 1: Mules remember that is the breeding of a male donkey
Speaker 1: which is smaller, and a female horse, which is bigger.
Speaker 1: Mules have been around for at least four thousand years.
Speaker 1: In a hinnie, yes, that's a big, old male horse
Speaker 1: impregnating a female, smaller donkey. So just like you would
Speaker 1: want a Yorky dad and a Great Dane mom, and
Speaker 1: not the other way around. That's why we've got a
Speaker 1: lot of mules and very few hinnies. But the mix
Speaker 1: of genes and a mule tends to result in a
Speaker 1: really strong and a trainable animal.
Speaker 2: So mules definitely need kind and consistent training and handling,
Speaker 2: otherwise they can be tricky to deal with. But certainly.
Speaker 2: You know, the West of America was settled on the
Speaker 2: back of a mule, or at least behind it, because
Speaker 2: mules drew the wagons that took settlers across. But you
Speaker 2: also have mules working in probably some of the toughest
Speaker 2: environments around the world, so the Nepalese Mountains, so much
Speaker 2: of Everest base camp, the supplies that go up to
Speaker 2: the near mountains, they will be carried on mules because
Speaker 2: they're sure footed, they're tough, they're strong, and they bring
Speaker 2: that best of both wells. But you have to treat
Speaker 2: them fairly, and you have to be really consistent with
Speaker 2: mules because they don't tend to forgive them forget they
Speaker 2: are clever animals.
Speaker 1: So when you say treat them fairly, good care and
Speaker 1: good food and all of that, and just respect for the.
Speaker 2: Mule, exactly respectful that they will work well and hard
Speaker 2: for their owners. But they need to be properly treated
Speaker 2: and cared for. And a poorly handled mule is not
Speaker 2: something for the faint hearted, that's for sure.
Speaker 1: And if you're wondering what happens if you are rude
Speaker 1: or mean to a donkey, just know that they can
Speaker 1: kick with forces over two thousand pounds and it speeds
Speaker 1: over fifty miles an hour or eighty kilometers an hour. Also,
Speaker 1: I was looking up donkey kick trivia and research and
Speaker 1: most of the search results were fitness related and I
Speaker 1: was like, oh, donkey kicks okay. It led me down
Speaker 1: this steep and treacherous path to A twenty twenty study
Speaker 1: in the International Journal of Medicine and Health Development titled
Speaker 1: quote effects of six weeks donkey kick and squat resistant
Speaker 1: exercises on gluteal adipacity, muscle strength, and muscle bulk of
Speaker 1: young Nigerian female adults a randomized controlled trial and it
Speaker 1: was authored by doctors from the Department of Medical Rehabilitation
Speaker 1: at the University of Nigeria. But this paper begins. Rounded
Speaker 1: protruding gluteus have been asserted to be an important feature
Speaker 1: of feminine beauty and self image. Currently there is a
Speaker 1: large influx of gymnasiums to achieve this end, as claimed
Speaker 1: by gym operators, amid the dearth of literature to support
Speaker 1: their claims. Now, the authors they did feel that the
Speaker 1: setup needed further context, adding quote the round protruding gluteus
Speaker 1: signifies beauty, power, poise and physical strength, especially among young women.
Speaker 1: The size and shape of the buttocks are important attributes
Speaker 1: of feminine beauty. Some celebrities, especially in the movie and
Speaker 1: music industries, have risen to fame owing to their body image. So,
Speaker 1: I mean good questions. So this group, they recruited one
Speaker 1: hundred and eleven females aged eighteen to thirty. They measured
Speaker 1: their butts, and then they assigned them randomly to a
Speaker 1: control group, a squats group, and a donkey kick exercise group.
Speaker 1: And you're like, tell us everything. I'm going to tell
Speaker 1: you everything, Okay. So they found that significant gain in
Speaker 1: gluteal muscle was recorded in both the squat and the
Speaker 1: donkey kick group, clearly not in the control group. However,
Speaker 1: the squat group found significantly more muscle gains than the
Speaker 1: DKG or donkey kit group. So more muscle, but also
Speaker 1: one paragraph, shockingly, ny I write a lot of this
Speaker 1: seem to contradict so much fitness advice. I've heard that
Speaker 1: you can't spot reduce in terms of at a post tissue,
Speaker 1: but this twenty twenty study asserts that both squats and
Speaker 1: donkey kicks significantly reduced at a post tissue fat tissue
Speaker 1: on the buttocks and quote this may be attributed to
Speaker 1: the exercise specific induction of fatty acid oxidation at the
Speaker 1: gluteal region, which is required to be the energy demand
Speaker 1: of the exercise. They say this result corroborates with other
Speaker 1: studies involving high intensity resistance training. Okay, so there's information
Speaker 1: on your butts. It's your butt. You do whatever works
Speaker 1: for you. You have that butt look and feel exactly
Speaker 1: as you want it. Either way, it's a great butt.
Speaker 1: But just know scientists are out there unraveling all kinds
Speaker 1: of mysteries. You know, given your cell biology background too,
Speaker 1: do you ever see news reports that come in like
Speaker 1: trying to crisper a mule that can breed.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's often the thing that's brought up or cloned mules,
Speaker 2: or you know, can we design this ultimate equid? But
Speaker 2: actually nature itself is really clever, isn't it. And I
Speaker 2: think you know, mules have to be bred because they're
Speaker 2: wanted and they have a purpose. And I think people
Speaker 2: that really value mules understand that they can't have an offspring,
Speaker 2: but they're worth it just for what they have in
Speaker 2: that hybrid figure.
Speaker 1: Any major updates on this, you ask other than all
Speaker 1: the cloning they did on racing mules a few decades ago. Well,
Speaker 1: there was a twenty twenty five paper in the Journal
Speaker 1: Animals and it was titled Current in Emerging Advanced Techniques
Speaker 1: for Breeding Donkeys and Mules, and it kind of reported
Speaker 1: with a bit of a side that despite significant progress
Speaker 1: in the last decade, standardization of protocols for gammy conservation
Speaker 1: and embryo transfer are still required in long ear equits,
Speaker 1: meaning I don't think anyone's out there doing crisperon mules.
Speaker 1: I'll let you know though. Also, yeah, we got mules,
Speaker 1: and we got ligers. And a liger is a tiger
Speaker 1: lion hybrid, but the offspring of a male lion and
Speaker 1: a female tiger also called a tigris, which seems unnecessary.
Speaker 1: But there are hybrids from a female lion and a
Speaker 1: male tiger, and those are called tigons. Oh so there's
Speaker 1: another new word. And the way to remember those is
Speaker 1: that the male animal comes first in both of those portmanteaus,
Speaker 1: even though the female grows the thing and it does
Speaker 1: the birthing. Also, female ligers and tigons can sometimes reproduce,
Speaker 1: but the males are always sterile. But it's asinine. Back
Speaker 1: to Asinas. And when I think of a donkey, I
Speaker 1: also I can't help but think of mini donkeys because
Speaker 1: I've seen them in their tiny and adorable But when
Speaker 1: it comes to the size of a donkey, what's going
Speaker 1: on with mini donkeys? Where do those come from? Are
Speaker 1: they doing okay? What's the deal?
Speaker 2: They're doing great. They're very popular. They are very very
Speaker 2: popular at the moment as pets. They are believed to
Speaker 2: have originally been bred in Sicily and Sardinia in Italy,
Speaker 2: and particularly for the tiny, tiny little tracks that you
Speaker 2: find in those rather arid environments. Since then, they've become
Speaker 2: exceptionally popular pets, and they are wonderful, but they do
Speaker 2: if they're not bread carefully and properly. They can suffer
Speaker 2: from issues associated with trying to breed too small, so
Speaker 2: they can get dental issues, they can get foot problems,
Speaker 2: they can have issues giving bursts because of the size.
Speaker 2: But they are cute, and you can get mini mules.
Speaker 2: So my personal equid is a minute to mule and
Speaker 2: he is about the same size as a mini donkey,
Speaker 2: but cause we can get donkeys and mules, you know,
Speaker 2: sixteen hands, seventeen hands. They come in all shapes and sizes.
Speaker 1: I don't know this, but one hand is four inches
Speaker 1: or just over ten centimeters and the height of a
Speaker 1: horse or a donkey. It starts at the ground and
Speaker 1: it goes up to the withers, which is right between
Speaker 1: its shoulder blades. And yeah, hands is a unit based
Speaker 1: on thousands of years of using your hand or a
Speaker 1: man's hand really as a ruler, and that's called anthropic measurement.
Speaker 1: And it just it strikes me as so weird that
Speaker 1: we just use a body part as a measuring tool.
Speaker 1: But then I remembered I'm five foot five five foot
Speaker 1: feet or sixteen point two five hands, So yeah, we
Speaker 1: should all be using the metric system. But America has
Speaker 1: a lot of problems, so that's low on the list.
Speaker 2: The mini ones are really fun and loving animal.
Speaker 1: It's very adorable when you say you're a personal like, well,
Speaker 1: do you have one that's like a pet or do
Speaker 1: you have like fifty that's a pet? How do you do?
Speaker 1: How do you do it?
Speaker 2: So I have two of my very own. One is
Speaker 2: a pony and one is my minute to meal Monty.
Speaker 2: So he's been with us for nearly twenty years. Now.
Speaker 2: And he was a little bit of a behavioral challenge,
Speaker 2: shall we say, when we first got him. But yes,
Speaker 2: he's taught me a lot, that's for sure.
Speaker 1: Has he kind of calmed and settled in as he's
Speaker 1: felt more secure.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's amazing. He's a great example of mules love
Speaker 2: one person, and once they trust one person, he'll he'll
Speaker 2: let me do anything for him. But my husband is
Speaker 2: a whole different situation. But it is his that lifelong
Speaker 2: connection with donkeys and mules that they become part of
Speaker 2: a family. And I think that's what's so important when
Speaker 2: we see how donkeys and mules serve communities, but particularly
Speaker 2: families all over the world. They are a really important
Speaker 2: part of that family set up. You know, they might
Speaker 2: bring the drinking water, they might take the kids to school,
Speaker 2: they'll help harvest the crops, and they are just such
Speaker 2: a valued family member. And that works well for the
Speaker 2: donkey and for the family, right.
Speaker 1: I mean everyone you have a dog or a cat,
Speaker 1: and they're a family member. My dog doesn't even do
Speaker 1: anything other than speA cute and that's fine. That's all
Speaker 1: she needs to.
Speaker 2: And that's fine, isn't it y?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Absolutely, And if she were to come back with groceries,
Speaker 1: I'd be like, Wow, that doesn't even matter, you know.
Speaker 1: Can I ask you some listener questions?
Speaker 2: Please? Yeah, love to Oh my god.
Speaker 1: Okay, they had one million, but before we ask just
Speaker 1: a fraction of those one and let's donate to a
Speaker 1: charity of faith's choice. And this week it's of course,
Speaker 1: the Donkey Sanctuary, which seeks to create a world where
Speaker 1: every donkey has a good quality of life and they
Speaker 1: use world leading expertise and donkey welfare. They design targeted
Speaker 1: solution to meet the needs of these animals, and they
Speaker 1: bring together over four hundred welfare experts for rescuing donkeys,
Speaker 1: shaping their behavior, and collaborating with individual owners and communities.
Speaker 1: They also perform life saving surgical techniques and training of
Speaker 1: vets globally. And the Donkey Sanctuary improves the lives of
Speaker 1: over four million donkeys worldwide every year. So a donation
Speaker 1: will be going to them, and thank you to sponsors
Speaker 1: of the show for making that donation possible. Okay, So
Speaker 1: patrons can sign up via patreon dot com slash ologies
Speaker 1: and submit questions before we record. You can join for
Speaker 1: as little as a dollar a month and it supports
Speaker 1: the show. So let's hear some questions, starting with Oh,
Speaker 1: Fernando Lopez Horo says.
Speaker 3: Hi, first, some question, ask Fernando Lopez Oro from Mexico,
Speaker 3: big fan of donkeys. I was wondering when in revolutionary
Speaker 3: history did donkeys develop the ability to sweat? And how
Speaker 3: different does their sweat to do ours?
Speaker 1: Do you know anything about donkey sweat?
Speaker 2: Interesting? Donkeys tend to sweat less than other equis. It
Speaker 2: is something that you see now in certain environments you'll
Speaker 2: have horses, mules, and donkeys all together, and donkeys don't
Speaker 2: tend to sweat anywhere near as much they will, but
Speaker 2: it tends to be at much higher temperatures and that
Speaker 2: is because of their desert evolution, so they don't tend
Speaker 2: to trigger that response until much later than most other species,
Speaker 2: so they preserve their water.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes tons of sense. Luke Spady asked if
Speaker 1: you find a lot of donkeys in ancient texts, and
Speaker 1: it sounds like yes you do.
Speaker 4: Susan said, Hi, my name is Susan and I live
Speaker 4: in Seattle and I love your show. My question is
Speaker 4: that I read donkeys communicate by blowing in each other's noses.
Speaker 1: Is that true?
Speaker 4: And if it is true, what kind of information do
Speaker 4: they communicate?
Speaker 1: Do you ever see donkeys moll on each other's noses?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so they will definitely blow gently on each other's
Speaker 2: noses or on a hand that's offered to them. And
Speaker 2: they also have a reaction that's called the fleming reaction,
Speaker 2: which is where they curl up their toplip and very
Speaker 2: often you'll see people posting it as something cute or funny.
Speaker 2: That's the donkey getting smells into its old factory system,
Speaker 2: and it's just something that they do to make sure
Speaker 2: they draw in as much smell as they possibly can.
Speaker 2: So the sense of smell is really important to donkeys,
Speaker 2: not least because they're territorial, so they leave markers, sent
Speaker 2: markers to let others know who they are and what
Speaker 2: they're up to.
Speaker 1: And so this fleming reaction looks like a donkey is
Speaker 1: bearing its upper teeth, and that word flemen means to
Speaker 1: burrow the upper teeth or to look spiteful. But it
Speaker 1: helps the donkey push sense into the ramar nasal organ
Speaker 1: or Jacobsen organ to figure out what it is they're
Speaker 1: smelling and what it all means. And I've mentioned this
Speaker 1: organ before like in the Ethnosynology episode and Gustatology episodes
Speaker 1: about domesticating dogs and the sense of taste. Those are
Speaker 1: two different episodes. And how I have a thirteen year
Speaker 1: old daughter, Gremlin, who is a dog, and she will
Speaker 1: chatter her teeth concentrating whatever she tastes, something new she's
Speaker 1: trying to figure out. So it's the same things. Sometimes
Speaker 1: the taste she's trying to figure out is a pee,
Speaker 1: her pee or another dog's pee. And yeah, I let
Speaker 1: her sleep in my bed next to my face, and
Speaker 1: I try not to think about it. Speaking of their mouths,
Speaker 1: Olivia Lester wanted to know why do they wiggle lips
Speaker 1: side to side and Peter Shai said that they watched
Speaker 1: a burrow in Death Valley take a big bite out
Speaker 1: of a pie n apple cactus, chew it up and
Speaker 1: definitely spit the spines out intact. Are their mouths especially
Speaker 1: tough or are they just that talented?
Speaker 3: Both?
Speaker 2: They are tough and talented, really is the answer. So again,
Speaker 2: they are a desert adapted animal that feeds normally on
Speaker 2: scrubby thorny Acacia trees, which are really woody full of thorns.
Speaker 2: Their noses. As your other listener asked, why do they
Speaker 2: move around. They've got really mobile muzzles, which is actually
Speaker 2: there to try and avoid the thorns and the nasty bits.
Speaker 2: But they are really good at getting rid of what
Speaker 2: is not good for them because in the desert they
Speaker 2: don't have rich pickings, so it's not like horses on
Speaker 2: wide open planes with lots of grass. Donkeys might have
Speaker 2: one shrub that they've got to get everything from for
Speaker 2: that day. So they do have these lovely mobile muzzles
Speaker 2: which do a great job of sorting out sorns and
Speaker 2: nasty bits of things like those catti.
Speaker 1: And they don't get cut inside their mouth very rarely.
Speaker 2: They're really really clever at finding out the bits, and
Speaker 2: they have an incredibly powerful jaw. If you think about
Speaker 2: the head of a donkey, it's much bigger in proportion
Speaker 2: than the head of a horse to the body, and
Speaker 2: that's because they have a really muscled and heavy jaw
Speaker 2: to be able to eat woody plants and shrubs, not
Speaker 2: just grass. So they love grass, don't get me wrong,
Speaker 2: But a tree or a shrub that's fine as well
Speaker 2: for a donkey.
Speaker 1: That's so cool, Patrons, Lizzie Martinez and Kelsey had donkey
Speaker 1: mouths on the brain. Speaking of teeth, Emily Schrader wanted
Speaker 1: to know what was the evolutionary need for such predominant
Speaker 1: front teeth. And then they want to preface no judgment,
Speaker 1: they are cute, elice bastic. Their child Gi wanted to
Speaker 1: know what do they have teeth like humans? So yeah,
Speaker 1: they are front little chappers.
Speaker 2: So they've got those front choppers, those incizes, and they're
Speaker 2: there to pinch at the grass or the tree or
Speaker 2: the bush. But also further back, they've got the most
Speaker 2: amazing molars that grow constantly throughout their lives, and those
Speaker 2: molars are there to grind up that wood and that grass.
Speaker 2: So what you can see at the front is only
Speaker 2: the tip of the iceberg. These guys have got the
Speaker 2: most amazing dentition at the back and it does a
Speaker 2: fabulous job of grinding up those are really quite tough plants.
Speaker 2: So you see the nice smiley bit at the front,
Speaker 2: but I promise you there's far more going in behind there.
Speaker 1: Do you ever have to brush donkey teeth?
Speaker 2: Very rarely, so they do need dental care. So domesticated
Speaker 2: donkeys should have their teeth looked at at least once
Speaker 2: a year by a vet or another professional, and because
Speaker 2: they're domestic hated, sometimes they need some help with sharp
Speaker 2: points that come just through normal grinding, and very very
Speaker 2: occasionally they might have a medical reason that they need
Speaker 2: their teeth brushing. But let me tell you it is
Speaker 2: not an easy job. Even with mint flavored cheese paste,
Speaker 2: Brushing a donkey's teeth is not something that I would
Speaker 2: wish on anyone, quite honestly, so that they're perfectly fine normally.
Speaker 1: Otherwise I imagine having to get one of those scrubber brushes
Speaker 1: that you use for like pots and pans, just a
Speaker 1: long handle, best not to, best not to, Yeah, speaking
Speaker 1: of teeth. A lot of people had a question about
Speaker 1: an internet video they saw or first hand experience. Pam
Speaker 1: wanted to know. They said, my neighbor had to sell
Speaker 1: her donkeys because they were picking up her newborn calves
Speaker 1: in their mouth and carrying them. Is this normal? Heather
Speaker 1: Cream and Alley Words wanted to know about the internet
Speaker 1: donkey that bites little goats on the back and carryrries
Speaker 1: them around when they get into his pen. What is
Speaker 1: that normal in nature?
Speaker 2: This is unfortunately a normal donkey trait and one that
Speaker 2: is not funny. It's actually really serious when you see
Speaker 2: those videos. So donkeys are cute and lovable, and we
Speaker 2: all think that they are gentle, but as I've said,
Speaker 2: donkeys have quite an adapted fight response, and if something
Speaker 2: is in their territory that they don't perceive as belonging
Speaker 2: in their territory, they will try to get rid of
Speaker 2: that animal. And unfortunately the donkey carrying around the small
Speaker 2: goat or the lamb or the dog, that isn't funny.
Speaker 2: That's a donkey actually displaying quite aggressive behavior, normal behavior,
Speaker 2: I have to say, and that's why my experience would
Speaker 2: always say, do not put smaller animals with donkeys unless
Speaker 2: you have introduced those animals incredibly carefully. You do see
Speaker 2: circumstances where donkeys live alongside goats cheap, but it's often
Speaker 2: a baby is born, so you get a kid goat,
Speaker 2: or you might get a lamb. Donkey doesn't know where
Speaker 2: that's come from, and it may attack the animal. So yeah,
Speaker 2: what looks cute is actually not. I'm afraid that's not
Speaker 2: just play behavior, not at all. No, that's the donkey's
Speaker 2: evolutionary fight response. Because we have to remember that wolves
Speaker 2: in their environment or you know, other animals are a
Speaker 2: threat and are cute. Domesticated donkey has only had seven
Speaker 2: thousand years to overcome that, and of course they haven't.
Speaker 2: So we do recommend people are really careful with donkeys
Speaker 2: and other livestock and pets.
Speaker 1: Is there a way to introduce another pet or animal,
Speaker 1: like on the other side of a fence and let
Speaker 1: them get to know each other.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can, And that's what we would always advise,
Speaker 2: is somebody lets the donkeys see the animal frequently and
Speaker 2: get used to it. Sometimes donkeys will decide that that
Speaker 2: animal is one of them, and that's fine. I would
Speaker 2: always be careful. I have to say, I think if
Speaker 2: a companion starts to show that they're not quite right,
Speaker 2: maybe they're poorly, maybe they've had a you know, a
Speaker 2: funny reaction something, I think you've just got to be
Speaker 2: careful because the donkey isn't doing anything wrong. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: we get lots of calls about donkeys that people don't
Speaker 2: want anymore because they work, eat and cuddley, and then
Speaker 2: they attacked the neighbor's dog or the new lamps. But
Speaker 2: the donkeys just doing what nature intended it to do.
Speaker 1: So donkeys are going to donkeys.
Speaker 2: And you know people do use that trait for human benefits,
Speaker 2: so you will see guys donkeys so god donkeys are
Speaker 2: often used in America, also in Australia and other parts
Speaker 2: of the world where they're kept with flocks of sheep
Speaker 2: or goats and they protect them against wolves and coyotes
Speaker 2: and predators, and that trait then becomes valuable to humans.
Speaker 1: I feel like people underestimate how smart and fierce a
Speaker 1: donkey could be, so I could see that being very advantageous,
Speaker 1: almost like a sleeper donkey that you're like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: I had a good message. What about play? So we
Speaker 1: know that picking up another animal is not play, but
Speaker 1: do they like to play games? Ashley Mars said it
Speaker 1: seems like donkeys have a greater need for play than horses.
Speaker 1: What are their favorite enrichment items? And Heather Livingston, Canadian
Speaker 1: gal eating dog hair for a living Lily, and bat
Speaker 1: Raichi both wanted to know about this.
Speaker 2: Ah a great question. Donkeys love to play big dog
Speaker 2: toys can often be quite popular. They also really love
Speaker 2: rubber items, so things like a bucket made out of
Speaker 2: old tire rubber that's designed to be you know, have
Speaker 2: feed in it for the donkeys. Very often that's their
Speaker 2: favorite toy. Tug of war is a very common game
Speaker 2: with particularly boy donkeys. Two boy donkeys. They like balls,
Speaker 2: so old footballs can be very popular. They really like grabbing,
Speaker 2: you know, good solid, safe items, throwing them around. They
Speaker 2: also will very often steal grooming brushes to play with,
Speaker 2: and ropes and things like that. So basically anything that's
Speaker 2: big enough to get in their mouth but safe. And
Speaker 2: they can also enjoy enrichment. So we might provide our
Speaker 2: donkeys with safe branches from trees or you know, items
Speaker 2: that we've smeared, something that smells really good. So they
Speaker 2: like quite strong tasting and strong smelling things. So actually
Speaker 2: a lot of the items that you've got around your
Speaker 2: barn or your yard are pretty good play items. Just
Speaker 2: got to change them. Donkeys like novelty. Leave the same
Speaker 2: toy in with them for the whole year, they won't
Speaker 2: play with it after a day or two. Really swap
Speaker 2: it in and out and you'll have very happy donkeys.
Speaker 1: Two donkeys playing tag of work. I'm sure that you
Speaker 1: have seen it, Alata.
Speaker 2: It never gets old. I love it and I don't
Speaker 2: know what they're called in America, but we call them wellies.
Speaker 2: Wellington boots and rubber Wellington boots with no metal pieces
Speaker 2: the ultimate donkey toys. So when your boots have got
Speaker 2: holes in them, you can pass them safely onto your
Speaker 2: donkeys and enjoy watching them.
Speaker 1: What about baby donkeys? Are they the cutest things in
Speaker 1: the world? Melissaquin wanted to ask what the flip is
Speaker 1: up with their weirdly variable gestation period. Is it a
Speaker 1: feature or a bug?
Speaker 2: Your listener is absolutely right. It can be anything from
Speaker 2: eleven months to thirteen and sometimes longer. So donkey Jenny's
Speaker 2: just seem to have this ability to hold on to
Speaker 2: their foles until they're ready and they feel safe. So
Speaker 2: it is widely variable, and they give much subtler signs
Speaker 2: of being ready to have their foals than horses. And
Speaker 2: it's again an evolutionary adaptation, so they probably would just
Speaker 2: hold back until food was more plentiful or until they
Speaker 2: felt they were safe away from predators. But we will
Speaker 2: often see it when neglected and uncared for donkeys come
Speaker 2: into our care that are already pregnant, that they'll wait
Speaker 2: until they feel safe and secure, often longer than we expect.
Speaker 2: You know, they've got to feel ready, and then in
Speaker 2: the dead of night the foles born. And there is
Speaker 2: nothing cute than a donkey fole. They are gorgeous, they're
Speaker 2: kind of gangly, right, They're tall, they're gangly, They're very fluffy.
Speaker 2: That's always the surprise of donkey foles is how deep
Speaker 2: their fur is and how lively they are as well.
Speaker 2: So donkey foles are just full of stuff and nonsense
Speaker 2: and love careering around. Donkey moms tend to be quite
Speaker 2: calm and patient, but yeah, donkey foles are just a delight.
Speaker 2: Can't get anything better.
Speaker 1: We had a few people, Joe Burnham, William Russell, Hannah
Speaker 1: Katzeriano Hudson, and Charlie w. First time question asker. Charlie asked,
Speaker 1: I've heard that donkey milk is similar to human milk
Speaker 1: and might be good for lactose intolerant people. A lot
Speaker 1: of people wanted to know why is their milk like humans?
Speaker 1: And we did a cheese episode recently where we talked
Speaker 1: a little bit about donkey cheese. Have you ever had
Speaker 1: donkey milk is what's going on there.
Speaker 2: I haven't had a donkey milk for some good reasons.
Speaker 2: So donkey milk is biochemical profile is similar to human milk,
Speaker 2: and probably more similar to human milk than other mammals.
Speaker 2: There's been a long history of people believing that donkey
Speaker 2: milk was both good to drink but also to bathe in.
Speaker 2: So Cleopatra bathed in assi is milk.
Speaker 1: Just to heads up, the history does get cloudy here,
Speaker 1: but it's fun. It's horrifying, and it's fun. So yeah,
Speaker 1: Cleopatra was said to have bathed in donkey milk and
Speaker 1: washed her face with it. But other history nerds assert
Speaker 1: that a later royal, Nero's wife, Papea, was the one
Speaker 1: who was known for this milk ritual. Honestly, this woman
Speaker 1: a dunken ass. Milk was like the least salacious thing
Speaker 1: about her life. Because this wife of Nero, she reportedly
Speaker 1: cheated on one husband with the Roman emperor Nero, who
Speaker 1: had killed his mother for the throne and who executed
Speaker 1: his former wife who was also his stepsister, and then
Speaker 1: later killed his son with Pipea while they were on
Speaker 1: a fishing trip. And Popea herself may have died at
Speaker 1: her own husband's hand and by that I mean foot,
Speaker 1: because he allegedly kicked her in the stomach to death.
Speaker 1: So I was like just trying to look up donkey
Speaker 1: milk baths and being like, what the fuck is happening here?
Speaker 1: People like horrifying emperors, but still why the donkey milk,
Speaker 1: And turns out the reason why people with money smeared
Speaker 1: donkey butter on themselves is kind of simple drug store chemistry.
Speaker 1: So let's have a look at the twenty fifteen paper
Speaker 1: Epidermal Permeability Barrier in the Treatment of Keratosis polaris, which
Speaker 1: notes that the efficacy for lactic acid in helping exfoliate
Speaker 1: and replenish skin is known. So like, if you've ever
Speaker 1: gotten like little bumps on the back of your arms
Speaker 1: or just in general on your body, lactic acid can
Speaker 1: help that. And we learned that lactic acid in our
Speaker 1: recent microbiome episode is formed when milk sours or ferments.
Speaker 1: The lacdose turns into lactic acid. But if you don't
Speaker 1: have a donkey in an empire, you just go get
Speaker 1: yourself some moisturizer with lactic acid in it to make
Speaker 1: sure that your skin bumps go away and you keep
Speaker 1: things fresh.
Speaker 2: So we're you know, we've got long history of donkey milk,
Speaker 2: but many of the donkeys that produce donkey milk don't
Speaker 2: have the best life, so donkey mothers tend to only
Speaker 2: produce a very small amount of milk. And you know
Speaker 2: that milk is very, very highly prized and very expensive.
Speaker 2: But donkey milk production systems, not all of them, but
Speaker 2: some of them are not welfare minded. And donkey cheese, again,
Speaker 2: it is quite a sort of popular thing, but it
Speaker 2: takes so many liters of donkey milk to make a
Speaker 2: tiny amount of cheese, so that's a lot of foles
Speaker 2: that are not getting to suckle from their mum to
Speaker 2: make that cheese. You know, it has scientific basis, and
Speaker 2: we know that the Infant's hospital in Paris in the
Speaker 2: eighteen hundreds used to have donkey jenny's alongside to feed
Speaker 2: small babies that couldn't feed from their mum. So there's
Speaker 2: a long history. There's good science, but welfare is not
Speaker 2: always at the heart of the industry. There are some
Speaker 2: good small producers that we've worked with to try and
Speaker 2: improve their practices, but where there's a profit to be made,
Speaker 2: often animal welfare isn't the primary importance.
Speaker 1: I didn't necessarily want to eat donkey cheese. But now
Speaker 1: I actively don't want to eat donkey cheese, so that
Speaker 1: works out well for me. I think good. You've mentioned newborns,
Speaker 1: and I've seen this thing where they have fairy feet.
Speaker 1: They have what looks like blubbery fingers on the ends
Speaker 1: of their feet in it is cute and grulish, But
Speaker 1: can you tell me a little bit about that, a
Speaker 1: little bit about their hooks.
Speaker 2: It does look something like Halloween, doesn't it. So the
Speaker 2: fairy feet are they're at birth, they very quickly go
Speaker 2: but that's an adaptation to make sure that the jenny
Speaker 2: isn't hurt during birth, So it's a soft covering of
Speaker 2: the donkey foles. Otherwise quite solid feet that could do
Speaker 2: a lot of damage, but they do look quite gaulish.
Speaker 2: Donkey feet, apart from those first few hours after birth,
Speaker 2: are amazing. So they again are highly adapted to the
Speaker 2: environment that they come from, so very tough, very rarely
Speaker 2: need shoes putting on, unlike courses. But they are adapted
Speaker 2: to dry conditions. So when we see donkeys kept in
Speaker 2: temperate climates and where you know it's damp underfoot, they
Speaker 2: get lots and lots of medical problems. From being in
Speaker 2: that environment. So that's one of the the biggest issues
Speaker 2: that we've faced with donkeys around the world is weather
Speaker 2: and underfoot issues that cause lameness and major hoof problems.
Speaker 1: Do they tend to get infected or are their hoofs
Speaker 1: wetter then they kind would be otherwise, and so they're
Speaker 1: they're more porous or.
Speaker 2: Something they most certainly are. So we always describe donkey
Speaker 2: feet like sponges. So if you look under a microscope
Speaker 2: at a horse's hoof material versus the donkey's, the donkeys
Speaker 2: is much more open. We'll soak up much more water,
Speaker 2: which is great when you're in the desert because you
Speaker 2: need to soak up whatever droplets of water are available.
Speaker 2: But if you're a donkey living in the southwest of
Speaker 2: England where I am, we have lots of rain. If
Speaker 2: you're not careful, those feet can get water logged and
Speaker 2: that leads to infections, so you get soft, crumbly feet,
Speaker 2: you get nasty, bacterial and fungal infections. Top tip for
Speaker 2: donkey owners is please please make sure your donkeys get
Speaker 2: some dry standing somewhere every day. Areas that have got
Speaker 2: low rainfall are brilliant for donkeys. But anywhere that gets
Speaker 2: lots of rainfall, particularly if it's warm as well, that's
Speaker 2: donkey for nightmare time. I'm afraid.
Speaker 1: A few people asked about that. Keith and Newman wanted
Speaker 1: to know do donkeys or mules ever benefit from horseshoes?
Speaker 1: This question was a foot among patrons Mini, Mini, Katie,
Speaker 1: Seegert and Stephanie. They all wanted to know, have stuff?
Speaker 1: Can you put a welly on their foot? Does that
Speaker 1: ever happen?
Speaker 2: So some donkeys and mules are shot and they can
Speaker 2: benefit from it in certain conditions. I would say most
Speaker 2: donkeys do not need shoes, and it's just going to
Speaker 2: cause more problems than it solves. Some mules that are
Speaker 2: working in particularly tough environments or that are going on
Speaker 2: roads a lot can really benefit from shoes. But again,
Speaker 2: most mules will do just fine without putting a man
Speaker 2: made metal shoe on their foot that they don't really need.
Speaker 2: But us humans are great at thinking we can improve
Speaker 2: on nature, aren't we?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 2: And actually they're pretty good well.
Speaker 1: Chavanni Rahan Hetchel said they were a horse girl growing
Speaker 1: up and always wondered why mules seem to have very
Speaker 1: upright feet compared to horses, and Stephanie asked, is it
Speaker 1: true that donkeys can see all four of their hoofs
Speaker 1: at the same time and horses can't. And many me
Speaker 1: also want to know, is that why they're so sure footed?
Speaker 1: Katie Seeger also volunteers at a sanctuary where there are
Speaker 1: mules and donkeys amazing right, and asked about her flee
Speaker 1: shoes too. But do they have a really different structure?
Speaker 1: Is that why they're more shore footed?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: So what brilliant questions from your listeners. So the donkey,
Speaker 2: and by virtue, the mule has a much more upright hoof.
Speaker 2: So as your listener said that they're much more boxy,
Speaker 2: we often say, and they're smaller, much more compact. Again,
Speaker 2: we go back to the evolution. The donkey has adapted
Speaker 2: to live in mountainous terrains with tiny little tracks, so
Speaker 2: big feet like you might find on a Clyde's Dale
Speaker 2: or on a thoroughbread and not going to help you.
Speaker 2: You're going to go over the side of the cliff
Speaker 2: if you're not careful. So donkeys have a very narrow chest.
Speaker 2: You'll notice that they don't have big muscles like horses,
Speaker 2: and they have very close front feet. And back feet,
Speaker 2: and that means that they can pick their way very
Speaker 2: carefully along really steep, treacherous mountain tracks with their tiny,
Speaker 2: upright feet.
Speaker 1: So this means they're as opposed to horses. Donkeys have
Speaker 1: kind of toller hoofs with less of an angle at
Speaker 1: the bottom than a horse does. So imagine like a
Speaker 1: horse's hoof is a wedge heel and a donkey's is
Speaker 1: like a point shiel. If you like exaggerated analogies. That's
Speaker 1: as good as I've got for you.
Speaker 2: And they're not going to to themselves by going over
Speaker 2: the side. That does mean that they're not as fast
Speaker 2: as their horse cousins because they're different, but they're perfectly
Speaker 2: adapted for the place that they are. When you think
Speaker 2: about the Grand Canyon, why do we think most of
Speaker 2: the equids working in the Grand Canyon are mules. It's
Speaker 2: because they're sure footed. So that ability to adapt and
Speaker 2: cope with really quite dangerous environments is innate to donkeys
Speaker 2: and by virtue mules. So those little boxy feet are
Speaker 2: just designed for where they are supposed to live.
Speaker 1: And if you're wondering how much burden these beautiful beasts
Speaker 1: can handle, I was also wondering that and it depends
Speaker 1: on how big they are and also who you ask.
Speaker 1: And according to a twenty twenty two paper the Welfare
Speaker 1: Concerns for mounted load carrying by working Donkeys in Pakistan
Speaker 1: in the journal Frontiers of Veterinary Science, there's little research,
Speaker 1: they say, regarding mounted load carrying limitations of working donkeys,
Speaker 1: but larger donkeys can carry what handlers tend to say
Speaker 1: is about twenty eight percent of their body weight, or
Speaker 1: around one hundred pounds, but some research out of India
Speaker 1: says that they can carry up to fifty percent of
Speaker 1: their body weight, and in some heavy labor conditions like
Speaker 1: in masonry, donkeys have been noted to carry nearly one
Speaker 1: hundred and twenty percent of their body weight. But the
Speaker 1: study notes that donkeys loaded at more than fifty percent
Speaker 1: body weight were more likely to splay out when they
Speaker 1: lie down, which is a sign of back issues, which
Speaker 1: is not shocking considering that they're carrying more than their
Speaker 1: body weight and like bricks. But horses, on the other hand,
Speaker 1: which are larger, obviously they can safely carry fifteen to
Speaker 1: twenty five percent of their body weight, so much less
Speaker 1: and mules. Remember the offspring of a male donkey and
Speaker 1: a female horse can carry up to thirty percent of
Speaker 1: their body weight, so they are stronger than horses. So
Speaker 1: patron to Patenko, Joe asked, are donkeys happy to carry
Speaker 1: our stuff for us on a hike? And if so,
Speaker 1: how much is too much? And Honeybee also asked about
Speaker 1: donkey rides, and Karsa May said, under what conditions should
Speaker 1: peck donkeys be freed from traversing trails like the Grand Canyon?
Speaker 1: Is that humane work? Or should humans hoof that trail uneeded?
Speaker 1: How do you feel about donkey or mule tours? Riding
Speaker 1: a donkey for some reason? I see that and I
Speaker 1: think I don't know how well they're treated. I don't
Speaker 1: think I could do it. Is it kind of a
Speaker 1: bit of a racket.
Speaker 2: There can be some good ones, Okay. I think we
Speaker 2: have to be really clear that there are some operators,
Speaker 2: and particularly small operators, that do a great job. We
Speaker 2: have to think that a donkey or a horse actually
Speaker 2: is adapted to travel maybe twenty kilometers a day in
Speaker 2: their natural environment. They would be exercising, there would be
Speaker 2: seeing novel situations, and they would be, you know, experiencing
Speaker 2: lots of changes of environment. When we domesticate them, we
Speaker 2: take that away from the most of the time, and
Speaker 2: good work where the animal's welfare is absolutely critical, can
Speaker 2: be at least neutral, not bad for the animal. It
Speaker 2: can imitate some of what they would have in their
Speaker 2: natural environment. However, but again, when profit becomes the primary focus,
Speaker 2: sometimes animal welfare is forgotten. But if you are thinking
Speaker 2: about going on these tools or these rides, have a
Speaker 2: look at the animal yourself. Are their signs of infection?
Speaker 2: Are their saws or rubs? How does the person running
Speaker 2: those rides interact with their animals? Are they kind? Are
Speaker 2: they gentle? How do they talk about them? Do they
Speaker 2: have a name? Is it an it? Or is it
Speaker 2: Jerry or Romeo or whoever? Ask those simple questions, and
Speaker 2: if you're not sure, don't do it.
Speaker 1: So yes, you're actual mileage may vary depending on the outfitter.
Speaker 1: But for the love of donkeys, do some research now.
Speaker 1: If a mule or donkey has been neglected or retired,
Speaker 1: do you think it could be up for the job
Speaker 1: of your best friend?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 1: Last listener question a lot of folks Dave Dwlly wanted
Speaker 1: to know if someone's daughter was able to have a
Speaker 1: rescue donkey, what environment would be most comfortable for that donkey?
Speaker 1: Would two or three rescue donkeys be happier together? And
Speaker 1: Kelsey Fant wanted to know what are some financial obligations
Speaker 1: to donkey ownership? Lauren Robinson, Peyton Hill, mendel Vescussi and
Speaker 1: Rosa wanted to know give us some tips on donkey care.
Speaker 1: I know you could write like an actual encyclopedia and
Speaker 1: this is what you do. But if someone were to
Speaker 1: rescue a donkey, or has a donkey, or is getting
Speaker 1: one for a homestead, what do you want them to know?
Speaker 2: Okay, most important thing is do not have a donkey
Speaker 2: on it sign so that one donkey, make sure it's
Speaker 2: got buddy, donkey's love the company of other donkeys, and
Speaker 2: under not drive unless they've got companionship. So that's number one.
Speaker 2: Number two is some kind of shelter so donkeys can't
Speaker 2: just be left out on a pasture and forgotten about.
Speaker 2: They need a barn, a simple shelter so that if
Speaker 2: it rains or it's really cold and windy, they can
Speaker 2: get out of those conditions. And they need dry under
Speaker 2: their feet, so they need somewhere that it's not going
Speaker 2: to be wet and muddy that they can get out
Speaker 2: of again. Poor weather donkeys do not need to eat
Speaker 2: rich feeds. So many of the problems that we see
Speaker 2: where donkeys are pets and companions, they're overfed. So they're
Speaker 2: given sweet feeds, they're given high energy feeds made for
Speaker 2: horses or cattle. Donkeys do very well on low quality
Speaker 2: fibers like straw. And get to know your donkey, so
Speaker 2: most importantly, after you've given them all of those things,
Speaker 2: the one thing that they will thank you for more
Speaker 2: than anything is spending time with them my heart. You know,
Speaker 2: get to know them, brush them, train them, take them
Speaker 2: out for walks. You see lots of people going out
Speaker 2: for walks of their donkeys and get to know their personality,
Speaker 2: because if they're not well or something is wrong, it's
Speaker 2: that knowledge of them as an individual that will let
Speaker 2: you know. And so often it's a tiny, tiny change
Speaker 2: in their behavior that will say I'm not very well
Speaker 2: or something's going on. So time, shelter, not too much
Speaker 2: of the sweet stuff, a good companion, and lots of love,
Speaker 2: and then hopefully you've got a happy and healthy donkey.
Speaker 2: But there's lots of resources out there, and the Donkey
Speaker 2: Sanctuary has tons on our website, so if people want
Speaker 2: to know more about how to look after donkeys, have
Speaker 2: a look and we can help you.
Speaker 1: So that's the Donkey Sanctuary dot org dot uk and
Speaker 1: it's linked in the show notes.
Speaker 2: Final thing, finances. Donkeys are not cheap, so you need
Speaker 2: to make sure you've got those yearly vaccines. You've got
Speaker 2: to do the yearly dentistry. Feet need trimming every eight weeks,
Speaker 2: they might get sick, they might need extra food, and
Speaker 2: they are probably going to live at least into their
Speaker 2: mid twenties, if not thirties, so it's a long term commitment.
Speaker 2: They're the most rewarding animals to have in your lives,
Speaker 2: but both a big commitment, so make sure you're ready
Speaker 2: and then have a fantastic time with them.
Speaker 1: A word of advice or is there something that is
Speaker 1: the hardest part about your job or working with donkeys.
Speaker 1: I imagine fundraising is going to be probably harder than
Speaker 1: actually going out and checking on the donkeys, right, but
Speaker 1: is there something about the world that is the hardest.
Speaker 2: It's getting people to say goodbye at the right time
Speaker 2: and the end of any animal's life is difficult for
Speaker 2: their human cares. But donkeys are part of the family
Speaker 2: and they're you know, they're they're tough, and often they
Speaker 2: are stoics, so they will continue on with terrible problems
Speaker 2: with their feet and their teeth or a working animal
Speaker 2: that's really valuable to its family and is part of
Speaker 2: that family. But there comes a time when we have
Speaker 2: to say goodbye sometimes, and with donkeys, because they live
Speaker 2: so long and we get so attached to them and
Speaker 2: they're so quiet about their suffering. I think that is
Speaker 2: the hardest thing that I have to deal with, is
Speaker 2: seeing animals that need to be let go, but then
Speaker 2: also seeing how devastated owners are. But we love our
Speaker 2: animals and it's the last great goodbye that we can
Speaker 2: give them, So that's the hardest part. Fundraising is always tough,
Speaker 2: you know, there are so many competing organizations, and donkeys
Speaker 2: are associated with, you know, very often either something funny
Speaker 2: or some of the poorest people in the world. But
Speaker 2: I always like to think, if we help donkeys, we're
Speaker 2: helping people too, which makes it just so fantastic.
Speaker 1: So and what about the best part of your day
Speaker 1: or like the best part of donkeys. Is there a
Speaker 1: part that you're just.
Speaker 5: Like, oh, I love this, Oh every day, Probably any
Speaker 5: time that I get to step away from budgets and
Speaker 5: you know, managing people and actually get to go and
Speaker 5: spend time with donkeys, whether it's here on one.
Speaker 2: Of our sanctuary sites in England or if it's in
Speaker 2: Ethiopia or India. Just getting that quiet moment with donkeys
Speaker 2: is such a privilege, and also seeing a when you
Speaker 2: make a difference to an animal, how it's life turns around.
Speaker 2: But also if you can help that donkey's family as well,
Speaker 2: it's just it's such such a wonderful feeding. But there's
Speaker 2: nothing better than a donkey blowing gently on the back
Speaker 2: of your hand saying I'm here, could you come and
Speaker 2: scratch my ear please? They're just so gentle And I
Speaker 2: think that's the best bit is working with just such
Speaker 2: charismatic animals.
Speaker 1: I think it's funny. People listening are probably like currently
Speaker 1: googling like a good closest donkey sanctuary to go visit
Speaker 1: to copeed a donkey.
Speaker 2: Go visit, go and support them, go and learn more,
Speaker 2: and then it will become a life long event.
Speaker 1: So ask astounding people, Yes, ask the nine questions because
Speaker 1: their brains are as big as their hearts. And thank
Speaker 1: you again to doctor faith Burden for all the work
Speaker 1: you do with the Donkey Sanctuary, and I hope this
Speaker 1: inspies you to your listener to visit an animal sanctuary
Speaker 1: near you, give a donkey a pet at least a wink.
Speaker 1: We will link to the Donkey Sanctuary social media handles
Speaker 1: in the show notes, and for more studies, you can
Speaker 1: look on our website at Aliward dot com slash Ologies
Speaker 1: slash Asinology. We also have shorter, kid friendly versions of
Speaker 1: Ologies every week for free. They're called Smologies smolog i
Speaker 1: e S and you could subscribe to them in their
Speaker 1: own feed where we get podcasts. Tell your friends we
Speaker 1: are at Ologies on Blue Sky and Instagram. I'm Ali
Speaker 1: Ward with one L on both. Ologies. Merch is available
Speaker 1: at ologiesmerch dot com and to support the show, you
Speaker 1: can also join our patreon at Patreon dot com slash
Speaker 1: ologies Huge, Huge, Happy birthday this past week to my
Speaker 1: forever friend and the admin of the Ologies podcast Facebook group.
Speaker 1: You know her, Aaron Talbert. Aveline makes our professional transcripts.
Speaker 1: Kelly ar Dwyer does the website, leading us down our
Speaker 1: rocky path is scheduling producer Noel Dilworth. Managing director is
Speaker 1: Susan Hale, who handles everything from mason Ry to baby
Speaker 1: Lambs and splitting the heavy load of editing each week
Speaker 1: are Jake Chafe and lead editor Mercedes Maitland of Maitland
Speaker 1: Audio Nick Thorburn Braid the theme music, and if you
Speaker 1: stick around to the very end of the show, you
Speaker 1: know I may burden you with a secret from my
Speaker 1: life in this week. It's that I started reading your
Speaker 1: pod mother Jared's favorite book, which is this fantasy action
Speaker 1: series called Heroes Die, because I wanted to be familiar
Speaker 1: with these characters and lore that he read a long
Speaker 1: time ago. They're in his brain and like the first
Speaker 1: few pages are brutal. I was like, what is this
Speaker 1: and then I was like, oh, okay, they're like setting
Speaker 1: up a character like this for a reason. Got it anyway,
Speaker 1: tour through the whole thing. Loved it. Very underrated fantasy
Speaker 1: sci fi book Heroes Die by Matthew Stover. And also
Speaker 1: it's just cute to know that these are characters that
Speaker 1: live in his brain. But also he started reading a
Speaker 1: favorite book of mine. I've always loved called My Side
Speaker 1: of the Mountain, which is about this little kid who
Speaker 1: runs off to the woods to live alone, and it's
Speaker 1: set in the sixties, which is I guess, like why
Speaker 1: his parents didn't get arrested for child neglect. But anyway,
Speaker 1: if you have friends or family members, maybe ask what
Speaker 1: their favorite book is, or start a little book club
Speaker 1: where you take turns reading each other's favorite comfort book.
Speaker 1: It's just kind of a nice thing to do, and
Speaker 1: it helps you get to know the people that you
Speaker 1: already know even better. Okay, organized locally, buck ice, stay strong,
Speaker 1: love each other, Byebye, pacadermatology, homeology or doo zoology, lithology
Speaker 1: and technology, meteorology, paratology, anthology, seriology, leology. Donkey, there's donky bad.
Speaker 1: How am I going to get this donkey,