Speaker 1: For the importance events of today, very important events.
Speaker 2: One big bill.
Speaker 1: Check you in deportations of illegal sucea spot throughout the
Speaker 1: day on fifty five KARC, the talk station.
Speaker 2: TATO five here fifty five KRC, the Talk Station. It's
Speaker 2: been a very happy Friday to you. Good to have
Speaker 2: in studio detective retired detective Jim Grindle, who's written a
Speaker 2: book comic Side Investigation in the interview, Jim, good to
Speaker 2: have you in studio and bible to see you face
Speaker 2: to face and talk with you. And let me start
Speaker 2: by thanking you for your storied career in law enforcement.
Speaker 3: Well, I definitely appreciate that. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2: Happy to do it man, And I told you before
Speaker 2: when the mix came on. It's been my experience in
Speaker 2: my coming up on sixty years that if you're sitting
Speaker 2: across the table with a retired police officer or an
Speaker 2: active police officer and enjoying a beer, they're the best
Speaker 2: people to talk with because they have the most outlangious
Speaker 2: and crazy stories, real things that happened that never happened
Speaker 2: anybody else because of, you know, being involved with the
Speaker 2: criminal element. It's just it's crazy what you have to
Speaker 2: deal with over the years, and we have a lot
Speaker 2: of fun with the stories, for sure. Oh I bet
Speaker 2: now you are not really retired right now, as I understand.
Speaker 3: No, Actually, my career started back in nineteen seventy nine.
Speaker 3: Actively retired in twenty thirteen, following twenty one years in investigations.
Speaker 3: The spray Dew Police Department has a program which allows
Speaker 3: officers to come back and work in an auxiliary position.
Speaker 3: We don't do any active enforcement, but we do a
Speaker 3: lot of the paper pushing and things like that.
Speaker 2: Well, fair enough, but you got it assaulted by a
Speaker 2: fourteen year old the other day.
Speaker 3: Well, he was autistic, and is this in the line
Speaker 3: of duty?
Speaker 2: This happened?
Speaker 3: This was an off duty detail, okay. And he was
Speaker 3: a regular at the church that we go to and
Speaker 3: he was just having an episode.
Speaker 2: I understand. Look, you were an out serving award or
Speaker 2: something like that.
Speaker 3: No, no, no, okay. And it wasn't intentional on his part.
Speaker 3: I don't believe either.
Speaker 2: All right, Well, that's good. Well, let's pivot over to
Speaker 2: the homicide investigation. The interview. Explain to my listeners what
Speaker 2: this book consists of. Jim.
Speaker 3: Well, the book starts, well, basically, the reason for the
Speaker 3: book was is during the interview, the individual portrayed a
Speaker 3: lot of body language that was beyond just your normal interviews.
Speaker 3: Pretty much displayed everything that you can actually display during
Speaker 3: an interview. And I always thought, man, i'd be great
Speaker 3: for a book.
Speaker 2: So, so body language is indicating a guilt, right, Well.
Speaker 3: It's basically a nonverbal communication, you know, through body posturing,
Speaker 3: facial expressions, movements, things of that nature. And you know
Speaker 3: that it's a lot about signs of deception or that
Speaker 3: they're not being truthful.
Speaker 2: And during the interview, So I imagine a young detective or
Speaker 2: someone in law enforcement who's going to be interviewing suspects
Speaker 2: could learn a lot from this, Well, I would hope.
Speaker 2: So I asks maybe one of the points you of
Speaker 2: your or put his book together.
Speaker 3: Well, the book's got a lot of clips in there
Speaker 3: showing when I talk about the different kind of language
Speaker 3: that he's portraying. It's there in the book, and there's
Speaker 3: also a two hour interview and it's entirety that could
Speaker 3: be watched as well.
Speaker 2: All right, how how many years experience did you have
Speaker 2: at the time you interviewed this suspect.
Speaker 3: Maybe as a police officer about thirteen years, fourteen years.
Speaker 2: Because as I understand it, and here you can be
Speaker 2: correct me if I'm wrong. I mean, there's a real
Speaker 2: skill in an art form to getting information out of witnesses.
Speaker 3: I would agree with that. Basically, you pretty much got
Speaker 3: to sit down as if we know each other, and
Speaker 3: once they get a little trust in you, they're more
Speaker 3: apt to talk to you and tell you things that
Speaker 3: you need to know.
Speaker 2: All right, So being a bad cops not a good
Speaker 2: idea under these circumstances.
Speaker 3: It works for the good cops.
Speaker 2: It works for the good cops. Now, But is this
Speaker 2: a learned skill? Like do you sit in a class,
Speaker 2: a cadet training class or some other follow up, you know,
Speaker 2: a continuing police education class to learn what you needed
Speaker 2: to do and how you need to conduct yourself the
Speaker 2: best interview witnesses and get information out of them.
Speaker 3: There are classes. I tell a lot of people that
Speaker 3: are in this kind of job to watch everybody's interviews
Speaker 3: and learn what you like about their approach, what works
Speaker 3: for them, and then kind of develop that into your own.
Speaker 3: The big thing with interviews you got to have a
Speaker 3: lot of patience. You got to you know, get a
Speaker 3: report with the individuals, And I feel that once people
Speaker 3: feel trusted with you, they people want to brag about themselves,
Speaker 3: So it's not hard to get a confession. Once you
Speaker 3: get that response, you know through them.
Speaker 2: Hey, is there have you learned over the years? I mean,
Speaker 2: is there certain certain psychological profile that kind of fits
Speaker 2: people who would commit very dangerous acts? I mean there
Speaker 2: is no one size fits all? Or do they sort
Speaker 2: of fall into a pattern? If I if I can
Speaker 2: call it that, I.
Speaker 3: Don't know if I agree with that. I mean I've
Speaker 3: sat down with people who you think absolutely could not
Speaker 3: have done something like this and find out they did.
Speaker 3: My philosophy is always, you know, I assume everybody's guilty
Speaker 3: until I prove am innocent. So that way I'm not
Speaker 3: lazy about what I do.
Speaker 2: Fair enough, Now, how much advanced work do you have
Speaker 2: to do before you're interviewing someone? Evidence gathering, you know,
Speaker 2: by the crime scene information photographs? Do you use all
Speaker 2: that incorporated in your interview or you just kind of
Speaker 2: hit the ground running with it.
Speaker 3: Well, in this case here, I kind of spent about
Speaker 3: two days to getting prepared because there was a lot
Speaker 3: of paperwork involved in it. And when I do the
Speaker 3: interview that that stuff is on my table. I use
Speaker 3: a lot of that as props. There's actually there's times
Speaker 3: where I'll take out photographs of the victim or of
Speaker 3: things that are uncomfortable source be sure, and I will
Speaker 3: leave them out there and during the interview just kind
Speaker 3: of watch his response and how he reacts to the
Speaker 3: photographs and stuff that are sitting in front of him.
Speaker 2: All right, let's turn specifically to the subject matter of
Speaker 2: the interview in your book, off side Investigation the interview,
Speaker 2: What was he what was he suspected of when you
Speaker 2: were interviewing.
Speaker 3: Well, there was a robbery that occurred involving three Hispanic
Speaker 3: males in an apartment complex there in Springdale. After that
Speaker 3: robbery occurred and the fleeing of that vehicle, an individual shot.
Speaker 3: He's actually one of the people that was, you know,
Speaker 3: involved in the actual robbery. Right, So basically it's an
Speaker 3: accidental shooting. Bad guy in Ohio. Though that would only
Speaker 3: basically be, you know, an accidental accident shooting. But the
Speaker 3: fact they're leaving a homicide or a robbery, I should say, uh,
Speaker 3: it would make a felony. And therefore, you know, a homicide.
Speaker 2: And anybody involved in the crime where the homicide happens,
Speaker 2: is himself or herself also going to be charged with
Speaker 2: that homicide?
Speaker 3: That's correct, And the purpose of the interview was one
Speaker 3: to establish they were involved in the actual robbery and
Speaker 3: who actually fired the round that killed Lamore.
Speaker 2: And I presume at the outset of the interview the
Speaker 2: guy denied even being there.
Speaker 3: This was a two hour, tenmidte interview, and it wasn't
Speaker 3: until about an hour and a half in to it
Speaker 3: that we actually got something out of him that put
Speaker 3: him there.
Speaker 2: Okay, well, what was your first indication that you had
Speaker 2: the right guy?
Speaker 3: What do he sat down down? Well, the reason I
Speaker 3: say that is the work had already been done. The
Speaker 3: search works were done. We had text messaging, and we
Speaker 3: had phone records, so when we sat down, we pretty
Speaker 3: much knew everything we were going to be asking him.
Speaker 2: Then, Okay, well, when confronted with hard evidence like well,
Speaker 2: here's your cell phone and here's the text information back
Speaker 2: and forth, and this is why it's relevant to this
Speaker 2: particular case, how does someone just deny that? All right?
Speaker 2: I presume it's some measure of the guy denied it.
Speaker 3: No, he denied, strong, strong denials with his non involvement
Speaker 3: of it. But and actually it's kind of interesting that
Speaker 3: the photograph is sitting in front of him. He actually
Speaker 3: turns around and actually points out and says she did it,
Speaker 3: and starts actually pointing on the photograph.
Speaker 2: I said, that's rather damning under the circumstances that he
Speaker 2: can't say you weren't there and then identified someone who
Speaker 2: was involved with it. If you weren't there, it don't
Speaker 2: work very well. It doesn't work well. So what's a
Speaker 2: guy's reaction like that when he pointed out to him?
Speaker 2: He's denied it, denied it, and then he points to
Speaker 2: the photograph, said she did it. I mean, did you
Speaker 2: see Well, wait a second, you said you weren't there.
Speaker 2: How is it you know she did it?
Speaker 3: Well, the other problem was who was driving the car,
Speaker 3: who actually fired around? So at this point he claims
Speaker 3: now that he's the driver of the car and had
Speaker 3: nothing to do with actually firing around.
Speaker 2: That killed him. But truly that doesn't really matter under
Speaker 2: the circumstances because again he was involved in the crime.
Speaker 2: That's correct, all right, Well, what is one of the
Speaker 2: more interesting sort of developments during this interview that you
Speaker 2: knew you had the right guy, I guess because I'm
Speaker 2: just kind of wondering how this all unfolds.
Speaker 3: Well, when he first sits down and everything, you know,
Speaker 3: the two of them were best friends. They grew up
Speaker 3: in school together at Princeton. The person was actually killed
Speaker 3: was an up and coming football sensation. They thought he'd
Speaker 3: make it actually to the NFL, and he played off
Speaker 3: of the fact that they were great, you know, great
Speaker 3: friends and everything. And when the shooting took place. Lamar
Speaker 3: didn't actually pass the night of the shooting. It was
Speaker 3: a couple of days thereafter. And this individual would actually
Speaker 3: stay with the family, you know, as a friend and
Speaker 3: everything else, and he had no idea that he was
Speaker 3: actually part of the homicide while he was living with
Speaker 3: an asshold.
Speaker 2: All right, well, we'll bring Jim Grendel back again, storied
Speaker 2: law enforcement crever with the Springdale Police Department. He's been
Speaker 2: involved in a lot of different cases, some fascinating ones
Speaker 2: to me. We can touch base on a few more
Speaker 2: of those and talk about his career in law enforcement.
Speaker 2: God bless those in law enforcement. Jim Grinnell will continue.
Speaker 2: It's eighty fifteen right now, fifty five K see the
Speaker 2: talk station. Be right back fifty five car the talk
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Speaker 2: pm tomorrow. The little chance in the morning. Tomorrow's high
Speaker 2: eighty six seventy two. Over night they'll be very humid
Speaker 2: and also a chance of some rain. Finally, for Sunday,
Speaker 2: very humid again and another chance of some rain eighty
Speaker 2: seven for the high day. Right now, it's seventy three degrees.
Speaker 2: Time for a traffic update.
Speaker 1: Chuck from the UCL Traffic Center. The UC Health Brain
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Speaker 1: the Lawrence Burn ramp and the Carroll Cropper Bridge Chuck
Speaker 1: Ingram on fifty five krc DE talk station.
Speaker 2: Eight eighteen Here fifty five KRCD talk station. Jim Grindle
Speaker 2: retired from the Springdal Police Department and he did a
Speaker 2: whole bunch of years as a police officer but also
Speaker 2: an investigator. I'm talking about one of the cases he
Speaker 2: did in interview on and ultimately the suspect was incarcerated
Speaker 2: homicide investigation. In the interview, it's a very interesting work
Speaker 2: of you know, how you get information out of a
Speaker 2: guy who's an absolute, outright denial and lying to you
Speaker 2: through his teeth. I thought it was a rather funny exchange, Jim,
Speaker 2: you're He says, I wasn't there, I wasn't in the car.
Speaker 2: I wasn't in the car. And you say, wait a second,
Speaker 2: I got your phone records. Man, we know you were there.
Speaker 2: And he denied even knowing the woman that was involved
Speaker 2: in the crime, although he had like twenty two different
Speaker 2: phone calls to her. I mean, this guy was just
Speaker 2: an exercise of futility of his in his denials.
Speaker 3: Well, he only claimed to know her for a short
Speaker 3: period of time. But because of those records, we know
Speaker 3: that the actual robbery has been playing like four days
Speaker 3: in prior to that, and that they'd actually known each
Speaker 3: other for over a week.
Speaker 2: Wow, how did the person get shot because it was
Speaker 2: an accidental shooting?
Speaker 3: He set Well, Well, one of them was driving the car.
Speaker 3: And I really don't want to throw the actual shooter
Speaker 3: out yet here because it's in the book and I
Speaker 3: think it'd be interesting for people to kind of it's
Speaker 3: a good type thing. Sure, But in the getaway leaving
Speaker 3: the crime scene of the robbery, he shot. The individual
Speaker 3: gets shot is in the front seat of the car.
Speaker 2: It was an accident.
Speaker 3: The shot came from the back seat. So you ever
Speaker 3: see pulp fiction? I did not see that.
Speaker 2: Oh well, there's a scene in pulp fiction the one
Speaker 2: of the gangsters in the front of the car and
Speaker 2: he's got his forty five automatic, but he has his
Speaker 2: finger on the trigger and he's talking to a kid
Speaker 2: that's in the back seat asking him a question, and
Speaker 2: the gun goes off and it blows the kid's head off.
Speaker 2: As a total accident, but that sounds analogous to what happens.
Speaker 3: That's pretty much what happened.
Speaker 2: Okay, keep your finger off the trigger unless you are
Speaker 2: intending to shoot the firearm. A little lesson there. So
Speaker 2: it's called the Homicide Investigation. The interview, real fascinating stuff
Speaker 2: with Jim. Jim, I understand you have another book in
Speaker 2: the works. What's that one about?
Speaker 3: That's actually a homicide from nineteen ninety nine Walker, It's
Speaker 3: gonna be the Walker Files. It's the sixty seven year
Speaker 3: old man that was beaten to death in his home.
Speaker 3: We know that the people response before the death or
Speaker 3: out of the Indianapolis, Indiana area, two people were actually
Speaker 3: apprehended for using the credit cards after about a thirty
Speaker 3: day surveillance of some gas stations, and then from there
Speaker 3: some other suspects were they're really strong, strong, you know,
Speaker 3: people of Ventuest. Because of some of the things that
Speaker 3: occurred in Indianapolis and also here in Cincinnati, we could
Speaker 3: put them in the locations here.
Speaker 2: All right, So another sort of who'd done it? And
Speaker 2: a crime book in the works. We're here from Jim
Speaker 2: on that one. After it's out and done, make sure
Speaker 2: you give me a copy of it.
Speaker 3: Absolutely.
Speaker 2: Let me just get your comments and thoughts about we.
Speaker 2: I'm a huge supporter of law enforcement. You know that
Speaker 2: we've already talked about it, and I think you were
Speaker 2: aware from listening to the show. My sister retired from
Speaker 2: the CINCINNT Police Department after twenty five years of career
Speaker 2: law enforcement. Perception of what's going on now, we have
Speaker 2: a difficult time recruiting police officers. Now, the defund the police,
Speaker 2: the police are a bunch of racists. You know that
Speaker 2: that kind of narrative has permeated through the society. Are
Speaker 2: since a police departments down one hundred and fifty officers.
Speaker 2: They're losing more and more every day. I know, they
Speaker 2: got some classes lined up and they're trying to do
Speaker 2: it some loatderal hires. What's your take on law enforcement
Speaker 2: right now? You know, for someone out there that maybe
Speaker 2: considered for a career, and do you think things have
Speaker 2: kind of, you know, run off the rails as we
Speaker 2: exist in a society here relative to our perceptional law enforcement.
Speaker 3: Well, from when I started in nineteen eighty, things have
Speaker 3: come a long way. And I say that not in
Speaker 3: a good way. When you got law enforcement back then,
Speaker 3: it was a brotherhood. It was something you really wanted
Speaker 3: to do. Now it's a job for just money. I mean,
Speaker 3: people come and get to work. You know, I see
Speaker 3: people turning down details pay fifty five sixty dollars an hour.
Speaker 3: There's not a strong brotherhood like there used to be.
Speaker 3: And it's like you said that with the courts and
Speaker 3: what they're doing now with the people that are you know,
Speaker 3: I think what they do is they protect mostly the
Speaker 3: bad people and the people that are good people. It
Speaker 3: just it's just don't work for them.
Speaker 2: Well, in your motivation to go into law enforcement, I
Speaker 2: suppose comes out of your sense of community. You want
Speaker 2: to help the community. You want to you know, get
Speaker 2: the bad guys and see the justices served well.
Speaker 3: With everything said like that, here I am forty four
Speaker 3: years later and I still enjoy it like it was
Speaker 3: the day one for me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, one sense of community doesn't disappear with age.
Speaker 2: I mean, you can become jaded and cynical, but it's
Speaker 2: the reason you entered into law enforcement. And it's kind
Speaker 2: of a shame that it's it's it's it's it's gotten
Speaker 2: the way it has. And you're right, I said, the
Speaker 2: the the core to the justice system, the key, you know,
Speaker 2: leg on the stool of the justice system is holding
Speaker 2: people accountable and and and and you know, punishing them
Speaker 2: for their crimes. It acts as a deterrent so that
Speaker 2: others do not do it. He's that person's held out
Speaker 2: as an example. Look, what's going to happen to you
Speaker 2: if you do the same damn thing, So you're not
Speaker 2: inclined to do it. I wouldn't want to go to jail,
Speaker 2: for God's sake. It's enough of a deterurn for me
Speaker 2: just keep my nose clean my entire life. But if
Speaker 2: you take that away, things run amuck.
Speaker 3: Well, And with that said, I mean I've worked with
Speaker 3: a lot of great people. My career wouldn't be like
Speaker 3: it is without the people I worked side by side with.
Speaker 3: And I mean there's a lot of good people out there,
Speaker 3: and then a lot of them have the same feelings
Speaker 3: I do that this is a great career. I still
Speaker 3: recommend it to people. Good for you, I'm glad so.
Speaker 3: And that's what you put into it. I mean, if
Speaker 3: you go into it with a you know, where you
Speaker 3: get along with people, you like to work with people,
Speaker 3: it'll work for.
Speaker 2: You, right, And no one's going to tell meybody, it's
Speaker 2: an easy job, that's for sure, but it can be
Speaker 2: very rewarding.
Speaker 3: It is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, Jim, it's been a real pleasure having you
Speaker 2: in the studio talking. Joe's gonna put your book up
Speaker 2: on my blog page forty five krsy dot com. Do
Speaker 2: you look you publish this yourself or do you have
Speaker 2: luckily published because you didn't go to Chili Dog Press?
Speaker 2: Did you?
Speaker 3: I did not, now that you. That's one I don't remember.
Speaker 3: I know exactly what it is. I just can't say
Speaker 3: the name of it now.
Speaker 2: That's all right.
Speaker 3: It's a local right there off of Fairfax.
Speaker 2: Joe put it on the blog page if you five
Speaker 2: carecy dot com. I noted one more thing I gotta
Speaker 2: ask you before we part company today, and I wish
Speaker 2: you best of the weekend. The Russia White Plastic investigations
Speaker 2: one of the high profile cases you mentioned in the
Speaker 2: liner notes on the back of the book. Real quick,
Speaker 2: what's that all about?
Speaker 3: Well, well, at what they were doing is they were
Speaker 3: coming in and this was going all over the country.
Speaker 3: But they were taking you know, credit cards. Are they
Speaker 3: got the little strip on the backside of them. What
Speaker 3: they were doing is they were they were encoding them
Speaker 3: with you know stuff that they stole information off other cards.
Speaker 3: Then they would go to ATM machines and start withdrawing money.
Speaker 3: And they were doing this all over the country, and
Speaker 3: they were out of Turkey and some people out of Russia,
Speaker 3: and Secrett Service did the majority of that, but it
Speaker 3: started a lot. Actually in Springdale, they went to a
Speaker 3: what was that a travel They were taking the cards
Speaker 3: and putting nine thousand, nine hundred and ninety nine dollars
Speaker 3: on them, and that started the investigation with us.
Speaker 2: Well, Iuess, you also work with the FBI, got secret
Speaker 2: service there, and you're involved in a multitude of cases
Speaker 2: over your entire career. Jim, it's been a real pleasure
Speaker 2: talking with you. Thanks for putting it down on paper
Speaker 2: and letting us enjoy and learn from your experience as
Speaker 2: a law enforcement officer.
Speaker 3: Well, I appreciate you for having me.
Speaker 2: It's been a real pleasure. Have a wonderful weekend, sir.
Speaker 2: Eight twenty six. Right now, local stories coming up. Alternatively,
Speaker 2: Jo's got the phone lines open. You can call. Maybe
Speaker 2: there's something you want to talk about. Five one, three, seven,
Speaker 2: four nine, fifty five hundred, eight hundred and eighty two
Speaker 2: to three talk pound five fifty on AT and T phones.
Speaker 2: I'll be right back.
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