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<v Speaker 6>You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking

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<v Speaker 6>killers in true crime history and the authors that have

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<v Speaker 6>written about them Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every

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<v Speaker 6>week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and

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<v Speaker 6>infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,

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<v Speaker 6>journalist and author Dan Zufanski.

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<v Speaker 4>Good evening with shocking insights into one of the most

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<v Speaker 4>talked about murder cases in American history. Abomination, Devil Worship

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<v Speaker 4>and Deception in the West Memphis Three Murders reveals the

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<v Speaker 4>truth about the death of three children in West Memphis, Arkansas,

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<v Speaker 4>in nineteen ninety three. My analyzing original police transcripts and

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<v Speaker 4>court documents William Ramsey conclusively proves that witchcraft and the

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<v Speaker 4>occult were involved in the heinous murders and that a

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<v Speaker 4>continuing wall of deception has prevented the public from realizing

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<v Speaker 4>the awful truth about the West Memphis three child killings.

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<v Speaker 4>The book that we're featuring this sevening is Abomination, Devil

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<v Speaker 4>Worship and Deception in the West Memphis Three Murders with

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<v Speaker 4>my special guest journalist and author and historian William Ramsey.

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<v Speaker 4>Welcome to the program, William Ramsey, Dan.

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<v Speaker 5>Thank you very much for having me on your show.

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<v Speaker 5>It's great to be here.

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<v Speaker 4>Thank you very much. This is one of the more

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<v Speaker 4>intriguing cases among all the intriguing cases that I this

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<v Speaker 4>program features. So let's get right to this. Why were

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<v Speaker 4>you compelled to about this book about this case? Parton

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<v Speaker 4>me was what was it about this case that interested

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<v Speaker 4>you so much and why?

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<v Speaker 5>Well, I was researching some information about Alistair Crowley. My

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<v Speaker 5>first book was called Profit of Evil. It was basically

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<v Speaker 5>a biography about Alistair Crowley. And as I was researching

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<v Speaker 5>my second book, I came across a clip on YouTube

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<v Speaker 5>of the West Memphis three case and it was about

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<v Speaker 5>Alistair Crowley. And I had seen this documentary Paradise Lost

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<v Speaker 5>about nineteen ninety six, but I hadn't really keyed into

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<v Speaker 5>that factor of the case. So when I saw that

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<v Speaker 5>Alistair Crowley was involved in the case and I had

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<v Speaker 5>an interest in him, I immediately kind of was curious

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<v Speaker 5>about why that was the case, and it kind of

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<v Speaker 5>led me to really research the West Memphis three case.

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<v Speaker 5>Had Like I had said, I'd seen the documentary, but

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<v Speaker 5>I really hadn't got into the details of the case,

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<v Speaker 5>and there was they had been released. The West Memphis

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<v Speaker 5>Three were released from prison in two thousand eve and

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<v Speaker 5>I was really just trying to figure out what happened.

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<v Speaker 5>So it led me to find all the case filels

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<v Speaker 5>which are available online at Callahans dot org. You can

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<v Speaker 5>find it there. So I really researched the case. In

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<v Speaker 5>my conclusions were a lot different than what the public

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<v Speaker 5>was saying about the West Memphis Three.

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<v Speaker 4>So this murder happened in nineteen ninety three, So tell

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<v Speaker 4>us in what year you began this investigation that you

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<v Speaker 4>became compelled to do this investigation, and at what point

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<v Speaker 4>in this entire case. Where were they in this case

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<v Speaker 4>at that time?

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<v Speaker 5>Well, they were released. I started really researching the West

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<v Speaker 5>Memphis Three in twenty twelve. I was relatively late compared

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<v Speaker 5>to a lot of other authors and researchers, but the

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<v Speaker 5>West Memphis Three were released on in August of twenty eleven.

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<v Speaker 5>They pled an Alfred ple, which is based upon the

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<v Speaker 5>Supreme Court case North Carolina Verse is Alfred, which allows

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<v Speaker 5>people to plead legally guilty while maintaining public innocence and

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<v Speaker 5>so they actually signed pleased that made them guilty for

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<v Speaker 5>first degree murder and they were released, And it really

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<v Speaker 5>kind of was I had seen it. I didn't really

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<v Speaker 5>think much of it when they were released, but once

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<v Speaker 5>I was researching the case, it really took a fascinating

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<v Speaker 5>art arch of the case. The actual murders took place

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<v Speaker 5>on May fifth of nineteen ninety three. Three young boys,

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<v Speaker 5>Christopher Byers, Michael Moore, and Stephen Branch went out for

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<v Speaker 5>a bike ride in West Memphis, Arkansas. It's right across

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<v Speaker 5>the river west of Memphis, Tennessee, and they left at

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<v Speaker 5>dusk and they were really never seen again. There was

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<v Speaker 5>a huge search that took place for the boys and

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<v Speaker 5>the next day they were found in a ditch close

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<v Speaker 5>to the freeway. They were horrifically. They were a really

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<v Speaker 5>bad shaped one of them it's rather graphic, but one

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<v Speaker 5>had his generals removed and two others were tied in

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<v Speaker 5>knots and later they found they were drowned in water.

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<v Speaker 5>So there was this horrific crime and the police really

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<v Speaker 5>were trying to figure out who did it. They they

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<v Speaker 5>brought a lot of people over from the Drug Task

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<v Speaker 5>Force of West Memphis to this murder case and really

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<v Speaker 5>ferreted out and researched too it could be and what

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<v Speaker 5>they came across from one person, the name of Damian Eckles,

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<v Speaker 5>was popped into the police consciousness. They found out about

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<v Speaker 5>this person and they really started researching him and looking

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<v Speaker 5>into his path, and eventually they brought in one of

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<v Speaker 5>his friends. His name was Jesse miss Kelly. They brought

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<v Speaker 5>him in for an interrogation, whereupon he admitted to committing

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<v Speaker 5>the crime with with Damian Eccles and Jason Baldwin, so

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<v Speaker 5>all three of them became known as the West Memphis Three.

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<v Speaker 5>They're arrested on June sixth of nineteen ninety three, and

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<v Speaker 5>it brought along a trial and they were false. There

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<v Speaker 5>were two two separate crows. Jesse Msskelly was separated a

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<v Speaker 5>trial from Jason Baldwin and Damien Eckles, but they were

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<v Speaker 5>all found guilty in two separate trials by twenty four jurors,

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<v Speaker 5>and Jason Baldwin and Jesse ms Kelly were given life

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<v Speaker 5>sentences and Damian Eckles was given the death penalty. He

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<v Speaker 5>was scheduled for execution on the exact date of the

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<v Speaker 5>murders one year later on May fifth, nineteen ninety four,

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<v Speaker 5>and the case took a strange turn when these documentaries

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<v Speaker 5>documentarians Berlin jer and Sinofsky went to West Memphis to

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<v Speaker 5>record the murder trial and create this documentary that was

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<v Speaker 5>known as Paradise Lost, the first one there were. It's

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<v Speaker 5>actually a trilogy. Three documentaries were put out, but the

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<v Speaker 5>first one was released in nineteen ninety six, and it

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<v Speaker 5>created kind of a groundswell. It's very similar in fact

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<v Speaker 5>to make King of a Murderer documentaries that came out

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<v Speaker 5>where the public received a lot of information thinking they

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<v Speaker 5>had received the totality of the information about the case

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<v Speaker 5>and actually were sympathetic. So there was sympathetic towards Damian

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<v Speaker 5>Echles and Jason Ballwood and just miss Kelly, and slowly

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<v Speaker 5>it kind of grounds while the public support grew for

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<v Speaker 5>these three boys who were supposedly railroaded by the authorities

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<v Speaker 5>in West Memphis, and it led to kind of a

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<v Speaker 5>cost eleb. Basically, a lot of celebrities such as Johnny Depp,

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<v Speaker 5>Henry Rawlins, girls from the Dixie Chicks, Eddie Vetter all

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<v Speaker 5>started supporting them and that's what led to their release.

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<v Speaker 5>Something like there was. It's estimated there was ten to

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<v Speaker 5>twenty million dollars that was raised. And what happened was

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<v Speaker 5>they there was a rule that was passed in Arkansas

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<v Speaker 5>that pertained to DNA evidence, and that allowed the appellate

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<v Speaker 5>attorney to take this case back to court and put

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<v Speaker 5>pressure on the prosecutors and then the people in Arkansas,

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<v Speaker 5>and eventually what happened is the judge, one of the judges,

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<v Speaker 5>was removed, a new judge was put on, and eventually

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<v Speaker 5>they came to this conclusion where they were going to

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<v Speaker 5>pleate guilty and then twenty eleven they were released.

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<v Speaker 4>Let's go back to the crime scene. We have to

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<v Speaker 4>go back to quite a few things actually to explain

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<v Speaker 4>how this confession came about and the circumstances in which

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<v Speaker 4>the investigation proceeded to Damien Eckels, and then the gathering

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<v Speaker 4>of the information that supported their conclusions as to motive

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<v Speaker 4>and to the suspects. So let's go back to the

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<v Speaker 4>crime scene. Who discovered the bodies and under what circumstances

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<v Speaker 4>and what was the evidence that was found solely at

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<v Speaker 4>that site.

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<v Speaker 5>Well, they were they were looking all over the kind

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<v Speaker 5>of West Memphis area. What they went to is this

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<v Speaker 5>place robin Hood Hills where the boys were last seen

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<v Speaker 5>and it was in the Derek drainage ditch. One of

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<v Speaker 5>the detectives, Burned Ridge, was looking through he had seen

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<v Speaker 5>a piece of clothing in this ditch and that's where

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<v Speaker 5>he found the bodies of the three boys. Is in

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<v Speaker 5>this ditch. He found that their bodies were put down

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<v Speaker 5>into the dirt with sticks in the mud. And you know,

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<v Speaker 5>there was evidence of wounds on the side of one

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<v Speaker 5>of the boy's face more and you know, that's when

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<v Speaker 5>they discovered that they were bound in this strange fashion.

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<v Speaker 4>Now, was there any other evidence footprints? Of course, they

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<v Speaker 4>did whatever forensic investigation right at the scene. But what

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<v Speaker 4>was the totality of the physical evidence they had to

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<v Speaker 4>go from to gather leads from right at that crime.

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<v Speaker 5>Well, they had some evidence. They found some blue wax

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<v Speaker 5>that was found there. There was at that time they

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<v Speaker 5>actually found and did a luminol test that brought up

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<v Speaker 5>there was tons of blood in that area, and at

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<v Speaker 5>that time the luminol was not admissible in a court

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<v Speaker 5>of law for you know, evidence. But as far as

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<v Speaker 5>everything else, you know, they they just had a bunch

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<v Speaker 5>of rumors about what was going on in the park

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<v Speaker 5>in that area. They had heard from other things that

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<v Speaker 5>people were in the park, that there were kind of

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<v Speaker 5>self south statanist groups, and that's really kind of where

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<v Speaker 5>they led off to try to figure out who could

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<v Speaker 5>have caused this crime.

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<v Speaker 4>You talked just briefly about the condition of the young boys.

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<v Speaker 4>You said there was the castration, removal of the young

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<v Speaker 4>man's penis. These were three eight year olds. Tell us

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<v Speaker 4>the graphic, Well, give us the graphic details of what

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<v Speaker 4>you talk about. The tying of the of the the

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<v Speaker 4>young boys. That's important. What was under evidence suggested, I mean,

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<v Speaker 4>we're we're talking about evidence being severely compromised once they

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<v Speaker 4>are in the water. So explain that and explain what

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<v Speaker 4>they could deduce from what they did see and have

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<v Speaker 4>at that scene.

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<v Speaker 5>I mean, they deduced the boys were found in a

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<v Speaker 5>very strange way. It was right arm to right leg,

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<v Speaker 5>left arm to left leg, and it was it was

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<v Speaker 5>kind of like a hog tie two of the boys

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<v Speaker 5>and the other one. I mean the medical examiner Peretti,

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<v Speaker 5>who was on in the trial, said that the buyer's

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<v Speaker 5>boy had his penis and scrutum cut off. It was

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<v Speaker 5>like his penis was sheeped, so there was piece of

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<v Speaker 5>it on the inside. He said, it would have taken

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<v Speaker 5>very much skill to actually remove that in such a way.

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<v Speaker 5>And like I said, there were deeper wounds, and they

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<v Speaker 5>really were just trying to ascertain who could have done that.

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<v Speaker 5>There was water, ditch was drained, there was you know,

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<v Speaker 5>that was basically it, and that's kind of what they

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<v Speaker 5>had to go on. They didn't have too much evidence

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<v Speaker 5>based upon the fact that the boys were in the water.

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<v Speaker 4>Right now, there was other stab wounds and other evidence

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<v Speaker 4>of mutilation to the boys, wasn't there, correct?

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<v Speaker 5>I mean, there's what they had. Evidence that one had

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<v Speaker 5>serious wounds to the left side of his face and

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<v Speaker 5>two of them had forcible injuries to their skulls like

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<v Speaker 5>cracked school. So they were beat up pretty bad.

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<v Speaker 4>Now, right away, this is not something in a community

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<v Speaker 4>of West Memphis, Arkansas. You say, population nineteen ninety three,

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<v Speaker 4>twenty eight thousand, not so common, this kind of psycho

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<v Speaker 4>psycho killing, psycho murder. When did the FBI get involved?

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<v Speaker 4>And tell us again, the investigation right away centers on

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<v Speaker 4>a person named Damian Eccles. But tell us about what

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<v Speaker 4>the police do in terms of the stories that they

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<v Speaker 4>gather the in terms of evidence that there was something

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<v Speaker 4>going on of a satanic nature, a ritualistic nature, or

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<v Speaker 4>a satanic nature. Tell us about that.

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<v Speaker 5>Well, the FBI came in and assisted by providing kind

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<v Speaker 5>of a behavioral and psychological study of the killer at

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<v Speaker 5>the time, and there were Florence specialists drew up to

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<v Speaker 5>West Memphis from the state capital of Little Rock to

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<v Speaker 5>help with the collection of evidence. But they were collecting

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<v Speaker 5>people came forward and talked about what was happening in

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<v Speaker 5>robin Wood Hills. People told the police that kids was

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<v Speaker 5>black and red hair hang out there in a cult.

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<v Speaker 5>They said that they had seen people wearing pentagrams and

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<v Speaker 5>they heard of like you know, stars of David are

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<v Speaker 5>basically a hexagram that said you know that we're around there.

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<v Speaker 5>So people had seen sacrificed animals in Robinhood around that

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<v Speaker 5>time as well, and they'd also seen you know, smell

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<v Speaker 5>smoke and hear chanting and strange music. So there were

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<v Speaker 5>tons of this this kind of and the case files

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<v Speaker 5>show this that all this evidence was being provided to

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<v Speaker 5>police a lot of through police reports from a variety

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<v Speaker 5>of different subjects that you know, this was going on

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<v Speaker 5>in the area.

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<v Speaker 4>Now, for those people that might say, you know, maybe

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<v Speaker 4>teenagers are a little bit different these days. I know,

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<v Speaker 4>my nephew or my niece wears black eyeliner and and

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<v Speaker 4>you know, nail polish. How common is this, whether it's

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<v Speaker 4>a community to twenty eight thousand, with the reports that

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<v Speaker 4>you saw and the in terms of the numerous calls

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<v Speaker 4>that you saw, how common do you think this is

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<v Speaker 4>They're going to be just dismissed as some kind of

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<v Speaker 4>teenage sort of hobby, fad or infatuation.

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<v Speaker 5>That's a great question. I think that there is a

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<v Speaker 5>subculture in the United States of kind of gods and

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<v Speaker 5>people who are who get involved in witchcraft, and it

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<v Speaker 5>happens all over the country. I've shown my book that

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<v Speaker 5>there were other type of malevolent killings of people that

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<v Speaker 5>were influenced by the occult, and I think specifically in

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<v Speaker 5>west of Memphis there there definitely was something going on.

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<v Speaker 5>It's all, you know. All the evidence shows that there

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<v Speaker 5>were groups hanging out at this old cottingen they call

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<v Speaker 5>it Stonehenge, and there were all kinds of activities taking

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<v Speaker 5>place there. Bonfires and even Miss Kelly talked about the

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<v Speaker 5>killing of dogs and sacrificing of dogs, and it came

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<v Speaker 5>from a different, you know, wide variety of areas. So

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<v Speaker 5>I think the commonality of the witchcraft you know, isn't huge.

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<v Speaker 5>But you know, I showed in my book that there

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<v Speaker 5>there are a ton of cases where it actually is

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<v Speaker 5>a motivating factor in murders.

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<v Speaker 4>For those of us that liked the definitions for things

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<v Speaker 4>being real rigid, let's get to right now the definition

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<v Speaker 4>for the FBI of a satanic crime. You say it's

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<v Speaker 4>a satanic crime, yet it may not lack those specific

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<v Speaker 4>ritualistic I'll let you explain the differences in your definition

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<v Speaker 4>and the FBI's definition.

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<v Speaker 5>Well, I mean I think that the FBI, and you know,

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<v Speaker 5>somebody who was involved in the case, for example, was

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<v Speaker 5>John Douglas. Their definition goes back to the Landing Report,

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<v Speaker 5>who was Keith lank Kenneth Lanning was a supervisory special

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<v Speaker 5>agent in their in their behavioral science unit, and he

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<v Speaker 5>basically said that there isn't really any cult activity and

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<v Speaker 5>that this kind of sexual victimization of children wasn't is

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<v Speaker 5>not a cult motivated And so the FBI really goes

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<v Speaker 5>back and uses that, and my my definition is definitely

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<v Speaker 5>different I My definition is that you know, if it's

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<v Speaker 5>if these people are heavily involved in the occult and

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<v Speaker 5>they're motivated by their occult ideas to murder, then I

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<v Speaker 5>think murder can be defined as a as an occult,

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<v Speaker 5>you know, a cult influenced murder. Whereas the the FBI

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<v Speaker 5>themselves do not even believe that you know that these

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<v Speaker 5>type of these type of murders take place. Uh so

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<v Speaker 5>you know, they their their their specific statement is their definition,

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<v Speaker 5>and it's a specific definition of satanic murder, says murder

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<v Speaker 5>committed by two or more individuals who rationally plan the crime,

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<v Speaker 5>whose primary motivated invasion is to fulfill a prescribed Satanic

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<v Speaker 5>ritual calling for the murder. So it's a very specific standard.

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<v Speaker 5>And I think that that you know, demand so much

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<v Speaker 5>pre pre preliminary thought to go through with it that

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<v Speaker 5>for me, I don't think. I don't I think that

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<v Speaker 5>actually kind of narrows the the the possibility of this,

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<v Speaker 5>you know, of that description applying to certain crimes where

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00:20:16.079 --> 00:20:19.680
<v Speaker 5>it actually is happening. And you know the other thing

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<v Speaker 5>is that I think the FBI standard is dependent upon

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<v Speaker 5>having those facts that show that there is you know,

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<v Speaker 5>a primary motivation and that they're rationally planning, when you

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<v Speaker 5>know a lot of some of these acts are typically

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<v Speaker 5>irrational and they're not going to actually state that for

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<v Speaker 5>the police to understand that it's happening. If that makes sense.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, Now let's talk about Damien Echos and he changed

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<v Speaker 4>his name to Damien, and there's various reports he is,

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<v Speaker 4>there's conflicting reports why he would call himself Damien. But

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<v Speaker 4>tell us what his real name is, and tell us

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<v Speaker 4>about his parents, and tell us a little bit about

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<v Speaker 4>the real record on what the police found from their records,

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<v Speaker 4>from the medical records and legal records on Damien Eccles

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<v Speaker 4>eighteen News of age.

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<v Speaker 5>That's a great question. There's a lot of there were

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<v Speaker 5>tons of records that were brought forth in the trial.

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<v Speaker 5>But he was born Michael Hutchinson. He is the son

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<v Speaker 5>of Pamela and Andrew Joe excuse me, Pamela and Joe

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<v Speaker 5>Hutchinson who were divorced and he Pamela remarried a guy

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<v Speaker 5>by the name of Andrew Eckles, and Mike Hutchinson became

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<v Speaker 5>Damien Eckles. He took on the name Damien. There is

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<v Speaker 5>some dispute whether he took it after the name of

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<v Speaker 5>the central character of the anti Christ character from the

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<v Speaker 5>omen Or. He claimed that he took it from the

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<v Speaker 5>name of a Catholic priest who assisted lepers in Hawaii.

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<v Speaker 5>But I think the name is more consistent with his

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<v Speaker 5>sensibilities which are in the occult, and we can go

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<v Speaker 5>into that in greater detail. But he before the crimes,

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<v Speaker 5>Damien Eckles was you know, he had no at eighteen,

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<v Speaker 5>he had no driver's license, no automobile, and he had

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<v Speaker 5>been in hospitals twice. He had actually been arrested after

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<v Speaker 5>being found by police in West Memphis hiding in a

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<v Speaker 5>trailer and after threatening to kill the police officer and

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<v Speaker 5>his girlfriend's father. He was charged with burgo rebreaking and

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<v Speaker 5>entering disorderly conduct, sexual misconduct, and terroristic threatening. So this

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<v Speaker 5>was before the crimes. He was sent for a stay

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<v Speaker 5>at the juvi Or Juvenile Detention Center on May twenty sixth,

375
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<v Speaker 5>nineteen ninety two, almost a year to the day before

376
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<v Speaker 5>the murders took place, and he he basically was in

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<v Speaker 5>and out of three different mental institutions and this came

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<v Speaker 5>up at the at the penalty phase of his death

379
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<v Speaker 5>penalty hearing his own PI went out and collected all

380
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<v Speaker 5>of this information so that his attorneys could have it

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<v Speaker 5>for court, and it became his PI was by the

382
00:23:00.200 --> 00:23:04.720
<v Speaker 5>name of Ronald Lax, who's deceased, but it's become known

383
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<v Speaker 5>as Exhibits five hundred because there's actually five hundred pages

384
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<v Speaker 5>of psychiatric and evaluation information in this voluminous kind of file,

385
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<v Speaker 5>and it goes into detail about Damien Echle's sensibilities, what

386
00:23:18.200 --> 00:23:21.799
<v Speaker 5>he thought about his family, his ideas about the occult,

387
00:23:22.960 --> 00:23:26.440
<v Speaker 5>and it's very voluminous. I only, you know, took part

388
00:23:26.440 --> 00:23:29.240
<v Speaker 5>of it out for my book, but it indicates so much.

389
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<v Speaker 5>And these are all by third parties in two different places,

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00:23:31.799 --> 00:23:36.640
<v Speaker 5>taking place in Arkansas, and while the Hutchison family was

391
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<v Speaker 5>briefly in Oregon, Eckles was in an organ mental institution

392
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<v Speaker 5>as well, So he was in two different mental institutions

393
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<v Speaker 5>and two states, and they're fairly consistent testimony. It talks

394
00:23:46.960 --> 00:23:53.519
<v Speaker 5>about Eckles being dangerous, irritable, involved in bizarre and unusual behavior. Echles,

395
00:23:53.599 --> 00:23:57.359
<v Speaker 5>Damian Eckles, believed in blood drinking, which is a consistent

396
00:23:57.480 --> 00:24:01.440
<v Speaker 5>kind of thing. He doesn't he admit admitted to practicing

397
00:24:01.480 --> 00:24:05.480
<v Speaker 5>witchcraft and stated he was a practicing warlock. So this

398
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<v Speaker 5>is a person who you know was involved in the

399
00:24:08.920 --> 00:24:13.519
<v Speaker 5>occult prior to the murders. He uh, he burned his forearms.

400
00:24:14.079 --> 00:24:17.960
<v Speaker 5>So you know, there's tons of information about echoes in

401
00:24:18.039 --> 00:24:21.720
<v Speaker 5>detail that really show somebody who really is capable of

402
00:24:21.799 --> 00:24:25.160
<v Speaker 5>these type of murders. And uh, it's a really I know,

403
00:24:25.200 --> 00:24:28.359
<v Speaker 5>I bid book detailed it, uh in detail.

404
00:24:30.319 --> 00:24:32.920
<v Speaker 4>Now for those I just happened to do some research

405
00:24:33.000 --> 00:24:36.079
<v Speaker 4>just a few weeks ago on my own for my

406
00:24:36.119 --> 00:24:40.279
<v Speaker 4>own interest and read about Alistair Crowley and Hermetic code

407
00:24:40.359 --> 00:24:45.839
<v Speaker 4>and uh, the philosophy do thou thou what thou wilst,

408
00:24:45.920 --> 00:24:50.200
<v Speaker 4>which means basically, do whatever you want as long as

409
00:24:50.200 --> 00:24:53.839
<v Speaker 4>no one gets hurt except Alistair Crowley. And you provide

410
00:24:54.759 --> 00:24:58.160
<v Speaker 4>a lot of this information in the book that Alistair Crowley,

411
00:24:58.400 --> 00:25:02.759
<v Speaker 4>in real terms and practical terms had a much more

412
00:25:02.799 --> 00:25:06.160
<v Speaker 4>sinister philosophy than do what you want or do what

413
00:25:06.240 --> 00:25:11.759
<v Speaker 4>you will avoid sexual and moral repression. You know, because

414
00:25:11.799 --> 00:25:14.799
<v Speaker 4>he lived in the time of nineteen hundred to nineteen

415
00:25:14.839 --> 00:25:18.319
<v Speaker 4>forty seven, so eighteen seventy five or whatever it was,

416
00:25:18.359 --> 00:25:22.960
<v Speaker 4>so a time of sexual and moral repression. But really

417
00:25:23.319 --> 00:25:27.839
<v Speaker 4>tell us about Aleister Crowley, his philosophy in real terms

418
00:25:27.880 --> 00:25:30.519
<v Speaker 4>what he really did have to say and how it

419
00:25:30.599 --> 00:25:35.160
<v Speaker 4>relates to Damien Eccles and his interest and also relates

420
00:25:35.200 --> 00:25:37.720
<v Speaker 4>to things like animal sacrifice.

421
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<v Speaker 5>Right. So Crowley was born in eighteen seventy five. He died,

422
00:25:41.799 --> 00:25:43.640
<v Speaker 5>like he said, in nineteen forty seven. He was a

423
00:25:43.640 --> 00:25:46.720
<v Speaker 5>wealthy Englishman and at some point in his life, when

424
00:25:46.759 --> 00:25:49.400
<v Speaker 5>he went to Cambridge, he became interested in the occult

425
00:25:49.720 --> 00:25:51.799
<v Speaker 5>and he rebelled against what he grew up in, which

426
00:25:51.839 --> 00:25:54.240
<v Speaker 5>is a Christian faith. He wanted to get in personal

427
00:25:54.279 --> 00:25:57.559
<v Speaker 5>communication with the devil, and he basically changed his kind

428
00:25:57.599 --> 00:26:01.200
<v Speaker 5>of name to He was born as Edward Alexander. He

429
00:26:01.240 --> 00:26:04.200
<v Speaker 5>became Alistair and kind of like the echo was changing

430
00:26:04.240 --> 00:26:06.880
<v Speaker 5>his name and referred to himself as the Beast. He

431
00:26:06.920 --> 00:26:09.839
<v Speaker 5>really thought that magic worked. He was trying to be

432
00:26:09.920 --> 00:26:15.519
<v Speaker 5>in contact with super you know, human entities, and he

433
00:26:15.599 --> 00:26:19.480
<v Speaker 5>really was an influence upon the twentieth century. He wrote

434
00:26:19.480 --> 00:26:21.559
<v Speaker 5>the Book of the Law, and his ideas, like you said,

435
00:26:21.720 --> 00:26:24.799
<v Speaker 5>was do with thou wilt. He believed in total permissiveness

436
00:26:24.799 --> 00:26:27.759
<v Speaker 5>and freedom, and his whole phrase was do with thou

437
00:26:27.759 --> 00:26:29.000
<v Speaker 5>wilt should be the whole of the loss of the

438
00:26:29.079 --> 00:26:32.759
<v Speaker 5>eleven word phrase eleven was kind of his kind of

439
00:26:32.759 --> 00:26:36.240
<v Speaker 5>favorite number. And Cruy talked about human sacrifice. He talked

440
00:26:36.240 --> 00:26:41.599
<v Speaker 5>about the choicest sacrifice as a young child of perfect intelligence.

441
00:26:42.079 --> 00:26:44.200
<v Speaker 5>And those were the three kids who died, and you know,

442
00:26:44.240 --> 00:26:48.680
<v Speaker 5>they were eight years old. And he one of his

443
00:26:48.720 --> 00:26:52.839
<v Speaker 5>books is Lib sixty six where he talked about child sacrifice.

444
00:26:53.480 --> 00:26:57.039
<v Speaker 5>And so this cruelly cruelly is an important part of

445
00:26:57.079 --> 00:26:59.079
<v Speaker 5>the case. Like I talked about earlier, why I got

446
00:26:59.119 --> 00:27:02.079
<v Speaker 5>involved in the case was during the trial, Crowley was

447
00:27:02.119 --> 00:27:05.759
<v Speaker 5>brought up by one of the prosecutors because Eccles had

448
00:27:05.799 --> 00:27:09.480
<v Speaker 5>been scribbling something in a kind of secret language that

449
00:27:09.559 --> 00:27:12.039
<v Speaker 5>had the name of Alistair Croley on it in kind

450
00:27:12.079 --> 00:27:16.000
<v Speaker 5>of this cryptic language, and it kind of brought got

451
00:27:16.039 --> 00:27:19.480
<v Speaker 5>brought up. And Eccles, actually, i've found out, was a

452
00:27:19.480 --> 00:27:22.000
<v Speaker 5>member of Croley's Oto. It's a secret society. It's the

453
00:27:22.160 --> 00:27:25.559
<v Speaker 5>Ordo Templey Orientus. He's a member. He had his library

454
00:27:25.599 --> 00:27:30.319
<v Speaker 5>there in Arkansas, they had his magical library. And he

455
00:27:30.400 --> 00:27:34.359
<v Speaker 5>also stated recently that he was prosecuted because of his

456
00:27:34.440 --> 00:27:37.799
<v Speaker 5>love of Aleister Crowley, and which is odd because people

457
00:27:37.839 --> 00:27:41.160
<v Speaker 5>at the time, back in nineteen ninety three didn't know

458
00:27:41.200 --> 00:27:43.759
<v Speaker 5>the totality of his interests. You know, they knew that

459
00:27:43.839 --> 00:27:47.160
<v Speaker 5>he had a pentagram carved into his chest as a tattoo.

460
00:27:47.799 --> 00:27:52.400
<v Speaker 5>But you know, so Crowley is an interesting element of

461
00:27:52.640 --> 00:27:56.079
<v Speaker 5>this of this case, and it goes to this case.

462
00:27:56.079 --> 00:27:59.200
<v Speaker 5>And it's interesting since since Eccles has been released, he's

463
00:27:59.240 --> 00:28:01.960
<v Speaker 5>been seen with people who are interesting Crawley as well.

464
00:28:02.839 --> 00:28:06.079
<v Speaker 5>I wrote a piece about him in The Satanic Underground

465
00:28:06.160 --> 00:28:11.240
<v Speaker 5>and he's been seen with other interesting Curley aficionados. So

466
00:28:12.519 --> 00:28:15.880
<v Speaker 5>Auster Crowley is I think an important element in this case.

467
00:28:16.680 --> 00:28:20.200
<v Speaker 5>And there's there. He actually Cruelly had something he called

468
00:28:20.240 --> 00:28:23.599
<v Speaker 5>the Seal of Babylon, which was kind of a seven letter,

469
00:28:23.759 --> 00:28:28.440
<v Speaker 5>seven starred kind of insignia. And Damien Eckles has got

470
00:28:28.440 --> 00:28:31.599
<v Speaker 5>this huge back tattoo that is a black son with

471
00:28:31.680 --> 00:28:34.880
<v Speaker 5>this kind of same motif on his back. So he's

472
00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:38.759
<v Speaker 5>he's doing things that are consistent with kind of Cruelly's symbology.

473
00:28:40.880 --> 00:28:43.480
<v Speaker 4>Let's get to something a little bit more specific, because

474
00:28:43.519 --> 00:28:46.799
<v Speaker 4>this is some of the stuff that's controversial to some

475
00:28:46.880 --> 00:28:50.559
<v Speaker 4>people or maybe even absurd to some people, but it

476
00:28:50.640 --> 00:28:56.640
<v Speaker 4>is specific. Let's talk about the significance of eight year olds.

477
00:28:57.279 --> 00:29:03.640
<v Speaker 4>Let's talk about why young boys were important in terms

478
00:29:03.640 --> 00:29:09.079
<v Speaker 4>of Crowley and the philosophy itself and some of the

479
00:29:09.119 --> 00:29:13.240
<v Speaker 4>other things that were done to the boys. So tell

480
00:29:13.319 --> 00:29:16.119
<v Speaker 4>us where you're as you bring up in the book

481
00:29:16.279 --> 00:29:21.160
<v Speaker 4>the evidence that points to specific necessary things that happened

482
00:29:21.480 --> 00:29:25.160
<v Speaker 4>that otherwise might seem very very random and crazy.

483
00:29:25.240 --> 00:29:29.079
<v Speaker 5>We'll say, well, just the fact that he was drawing.

484
00:29:29.119 --> 00:29:32.000
<v Speaker 5>He was interested in sacrificing a child. He had talked

485
00:29:32.000 --> 00:29:34.480
<v Speaker 5>about that with his girlfriend, and I put in the

486
00:29:34.480 --> 00:29:37.119
<v Speaker 5>book that they're you know, there's a drawing of done

487
00:29:37.160 --> 00:29:41.279
<v Speaker 5>by his girlfriend of child sacrifice under a moon in

488
00:29:41.359 --> 00:29:44.279
<v Speaker 5>a in a kind of cemetery environment, so you can

489
00:29:44.279 --> 00:29:47.160
<v Speaker 5>see that in there. But the eight year old, you know,

490
00:29:47.279 --> 00:29:50.279
<v Speaker 5>he's he's you know, Crawley, like I said earlier, male

491
00:29:50.359 --> 00:29:52.920
<v Speaker 5>child of perfect innocence and high intelligence is the most

492
00:29:52.960 --> 00:29:55.599
<v Speaker 5>satisfactory and suitable victim that comes from magic and they

493
00:29:55.640 --> 00:30:00.640
<v Speaker 5>and practice. So you know, he was very much Curley

494
00:30:00.720 --> 00:30:04.839
<v Speaker 5>was interested in sacrifice. And what happened on May fifth

495
00:30:04.880 --> 00:30:08.000
<v Speaker 5>of nineteen ninety three was on a full moon. The

496
00:30:08.279 --> 00:30:12.880
<v Speaker 5>children were tied with these ties that indicate and are

497
00:30:12.920 --> 00:30:19.119
<v Speaker 5>significant in the occult because they maintain magical power. These

498
00:30:19.240 --> 00:30:25.039
<v Speaker 5>these knots are actually called they accord magic is really

499
00:30:25.039 --> 00:30:27.519
<v Speaker 5>what they reference to it. And that's what I believe,

500
00:30:27.559 --> 00:30:30.279
<v Speaker 5>and that's what I drew comparison to is these magic

501
00:30:30.359 --> 00:30:33.640
<v Speaker 5>knots and cord magic that was in and reference in

502
00:30:33.680 --> 00:30:37.200
<v Speaker 5>a book called Bucklan's Complete Book of Witchcraft, which which

503
00:30:37.519 --> 00:30:40.440
<v Speaker 5>Damien Eckles had used as a reference point and actually

504
00:30:40.480 --> 00:30:42.559
<v Speaker 5>told people that he wanted a copy of it while

505
00:30:42.599 --> 00:30:45.160
<v Speaker 5>he was in while he was in prison. So this

506
00:30:45.279 --> 00:30:48.279
<v Speaker 5>cord magic is very in. The children were bound in

507
00:30:48.319 --> 00:30:51.559
<v Speaker 5>a very strange manner with different knots of different styles,

508
00:30:51.559 --> 00:30:54.839
<v Speaker 5>and so I believe that the knots are significant and

509
00:30:55.400 --> 00:30:59.960
<v Speaker 5>similar to what would be in this wiccan or occult magic.

510
00:31:00.880 --> 00:31:04.240
<v Speaker 5>And you know that's one of the other things and things.

511
00:31:04.359 --> 00:31:06.480
<v Speaker 5>These things take place in full moons are very important

512
00:31:06.559 --> 00:31:11.440
<v Speaker 5>to the wick and calendar. The deaths happened close to Belltane.

513
00:31:11.480 --> 00:31:13.880
<v Speaker 5>They were about three or four days outside of Beltane.

514
00:31:13.960 --> 00:31:18.359
<v Speaker 5>So I do believe that there is a consistency. And

515
00:31:18.400 --> 00:31:22.359
<v Speaker 5>Damian Echles is still a practicing magician. He's still tattooing

516
00:31:22.400 --> 00:31:26.720
<v Speaker 5>his body with even alphabet with the cryptic occult symbols

517
00:31:26.799 --> 00:31:31.480
<v Speaker 5>and the Enochian alphabet which is from John D. And

518
00:31:32.920 --> 00:31:36.079
<v Speaker 5>there's a Kelly who was his kind of describe. So

519
00:31:36.640 --> 00:31:38.960
<v Speaker 5>these are things that go back to the Western esoterica

520
00:31:39.079 --> 00:31:43.480
<v Speaker 5>tradition that Taman Eckles is interested. And he actually said

521
00:31:43.519 --> 00:31:46.640
<v Speaker 5>in this documentary West of Memphis that was produced by

522
00:31:46.680 --> 00:31:50.000
<v Speaker 5>Peter Jackson that he wanted to be the greatest magician

523
00:31:50.039 --> 00:31:52.039
<v Speaker 5>that I ever lived. That's the way he thinks of

524
00:31:52.119 --> 00:31:54.519
<v Speaker 5>himself after getting out of jail.

525
00:31:57.599 --> 00:32:01.680
<v Speaker 4>Now, I wanted to ask this question, is when we

526
00:32:01.720 --> 00:32:04.519
<v Speaker 4>talk about some of the things that the police were

527
00:32:05.200 --> 00:32:09.000
<v Speaker 4>information the police were getting from people, third party persons

528
00:32:09.039 --> 00:32:13.839
<v Speaker 4>talking about what Damien did at certain points, tell us

529
00:32:13.839 --> 00:32:19.839
<v Speaker 4>about the incidents of him photographing people and its importance

530
00:32:20.440 --> 00:32:23.200
<v Speaker 4>before we give that little bit of information away, but

531
00:32:23.519 --> 00:32:28.160
<v Speaker 4>its importance to again the cruelly and satanic philosophy.

532
00:32:29.279 --> 00:32:31.920
<v Speaker 5>Well, I think there was people came forward and gave

533
00:32:31.960 --> 00:32:33.880
<v Speaker 5>testimony to the police of all different types of things

534
00:32:33.920 --> 00:32:36.759
<v Speaker 5>that make it into the trial. But there was one

535
00:32:36.839 --> 00:32:40.119
<v Speaker 5>family who came forward and said that Damien Eckles was

536
00:32:40.119 --> 00:32:44.440
<v Speaker 5>seen in a bush taking pictures of his kids to

537
00:32:44.599 --> 00:32:47.440
<v Speaker 5>girls age nine and eleven, And there were other photographs

538
00:32:47.480 --> 00:32:50.119
<v Speaker 5>that were in supposedly in the possession of Eccles, of

539
00:32:50.200 --> 00:32:53.119
<v Speaker 5>the boys that he killed, so some people actually believed

540
00:32:53.119 --> 00:32:56.880
<v Speaker 5>that he stocked his victims before they were murdered. On

541
00:32:57.039 --> 00:33:01.640
<v Speaker 5>May fifth, nineteen ninety three, there was the black a

542
00:33:01.680 --> 00:33:04.519
<v Speaker 5>black briefcase that it contained their drugs and these pictures

543
00:33:04.839 --> 00:33:08.559
<v Speaker 5>that other people testified about, So, uh, there is there

544
00:33:08.720 --> 00:33:11.079
<v Speaker 5>was a potential that other people were being you know,

545
00:33:11.119 --> 00:33:14.559
<v Speaker 5>stalked him. And he said two girls heard him admit

546
00:33:14.759 --> 00:33:17.519
<v Speaker 5>to the murders and they were they their testimony was

547
00:33:17.559 --> 00:33:20.480
<v Speaker 5>granted in court. It was never recanted or anything. But

548
00:33:20.519 --> 00:33:23.200
<v Speaker 5>they also said that Eckles was going to kill two more.

549
00:33:23.319 --> 00:33:28.000
<v Speaker 5>He was gunning for five total victims, and some of

550
00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:30.720
<v Speaker 5>the evidence of what was happening before the murders indicated

551
00:33:30.759 --> 00:33:34.400
<v Speaker 5>that that was the case. So, you know the mentality

552
00:33:34.559 --> 00:33:37.640
<v Speaker 5>of you know, sacrifice, and it seems like they escalated

553
00:33:37.680 --> 00:33:41.240
<v Speaker 5>all the way up to human sacrifice through animal sacrifice.

554
00:33:41.240 --> 00:33:43.440
<v Speaker 5>There were other people who came to the police said

555
00:33:43.440 --> 00:33:46.400
<v Speaker 5>their dogs were stolen. They had seen Jason Baldwin taking

556
00:33:46.440 --> 00:33:50.440
<v Speaker 5>their dog. So they are very harrowing and scary statements

557
00:33:50.480 --> 00:33:53.200
<v Speaker 5>that were given to police about equals and Baldwin.

558
00:33:56.079 --> 00:33:58.640
<v Speaker 4>Now, let's use this as an opportunity to talk about

559
00:33:58.720 --> 00:34:02.279
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579
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582
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588
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<v Speaker 4>them out. When we last left off, William, we were

589
00:36:04.599 --> 00:36:09.119
<v Speaker 4>speaking about we haven't got to the point where Jim

590
00:36:09.159 --> 00:36:16.159
<v Speaker 4>ms kelly is taken in for questioning. Tell us the

591
00:36:16.280 --> 00:36:19.880
<v Speaker 4>circumstances in that, of course, we've heard about Damian Eccles.

592
00:36:22.079 --> 00:36:25.079
<v Speaker 4>By this point, do the police know about Jason Baldwin?

593
00:36:25.199 --> 00:36:27.800
<v Speaker 4>How much did they know? And how much they know

594
00:36:28.360 --> 00:36:31.000
<v Speaker 4>or do they think they know about Jim ms Kelly Junior.

595
00:36:32.360 --> 00:36:36.880
<v Speaker 4>Why talk to Jim ms Kelly before Jason Baldwin or

596
00:36:36.960 --> 00:36:40.960
<v Speaker 4>Damian Eccles tell us about the circumstances that Jim ms

597
00:36:41.079 --> 00:36:44.639
<v Speaker 4>Kelly comes to be the first person that they really question.

598
00:36:46.000 --> 00:36:49.079
<v Speaker 5>Great question, it's Jesse ms Kelly. So Jesse ms Kelly Jr.

599
00:36:49.199 --> 00:36:53.119
<v Speaker 5>Pardon was question on June third, he was brought into

600
00:36:53.119 --> 00:36:56.199
<v Speaker 5>the police station. I think he actually the police actually

601
00:36:56.320 --> 00:37:01.360
<v Speaker 5>drove to Jesse mss Kelly Junior's DADA to ask if

602
00:37:01.360 --> 00:37:04.679
<v Speaker 5>he could come in for questioning. They were still looking around.

603
00:37:04.719 --> 00:37:07.360
<v Speaker 5>I don't think the police at this point knew the

604
00:37:07.400 --> 00:37:10.760
<v Speaker 5>totality of what was going on with Eccles and Baldwin,

605
00:37:10.840 --> 00:37:14.360
<v Speaker 5>even though Eckles was a person of interest. But what

606
00:37:14.559 --> 00:37:16.679
<v Speaker 5>happened was he was brought in at about nine to

607
00:37:16.719 --> 00:37:21.639
<v Speaker 5>forty five. There was they didn't really record right away,

608
00:37:21.719 --> 00:37:24.840
<v Speaker 5>but there is a recorded part of it that they

609
00:37:24.880 --> 00:37:28.559
<v Speaker 5>actually gave Jesse a lie detector test which he failed.

610
00:37:28.599 --> 00:37:32.400
<v Speaker 5>The polygraph failed, and then they started asking him questions

611
00:37:32.480 --> 00:37:38.039
<v Speaker 5>and he basically started talking after about two or three hours,

612
00:37:38.079 --> 00:37:41.800
<v Speaker 5>and he gave his first statement at about two forty five,

613
00:37:42.639 --> 00:37:46.159
<v Speaker 5>and that's what led to the arrest of Damien and Jason.

614
00:37:46.599 --> 00:37:51.679
<v Speaker 5>But once they made it to trial, this first confession

615
00:37:51.840 --> 00:37:55.159
<v Speaker 5>was basically attacked, you know, very standard stuff for defense

616
00:37:55.239 --> 00:37:58.760
<v Speaker 5>people to do, because Jesse wasn't being specific about some

617
00:37:58.840 --> 00:38:01.559
<v Speaker 5>of the stuff. And Jesse said that he was intentionally

618
00:38:01.599 --> 00:38:06.840
<v Speaker 5>being deceptive. But the uh, the the confession that he

619
00:38:06.920 --> 00:38:10.119
<v Speaker 5>gave was was close enough to you know, end up

620
00:38:10.159 --> 00:38:14.039
<v Speaker 5>getting all three of them arrested. And you know, he

621
00:38:14.119 --> 00:38:15.920
<v Speaker 5>gave a lot of details that were specific to the

622
00:38:15.920 --> 00:38:18.679
<v Speaker 5>crime about the kids, about him chasing one bat back

623
00:38:18.800 --> 00:38:24.360
<v Speaker 5>one down and bring him back and tell.

624
00:38:23.320 --> 00:38:25.800
<v Speaker 4>Us about the tell us about specifically what he said

625
00:38:26.679 --> 00:38:29.599
<v Speaker 4>in that first confession regarding details about.

626
00:38:29.360 --> 00:38:33.719
<v Speaker 5>The murders, well, he specifically said Damien raped fire, So

627
00:38:33.800 --> 00:38:35.920
<v Speaker 5>he raped one of the boys and then they both

628
00:38:36.079 --> 00:38:39.039
<v Speaker 5>both chasing and Damien raped Branch. So it's very very

629
00:38:39.039 --> 00:38:44.119
<v Speaker 5>graphic and there was different types of sex sex and uh,

630
00:38:44.199 --> 00:38:47.000
<v Speaker 5>basically they were holding him down while while this uh

631
00:38:47.880 --> 00:38:50.079
<v Speaker 5>you know, this kind of torture that was taking place,

632
00:38:50.800 --> 00:38:54.960
<v Speaker 5>and it was it was very detailed. They uh he

633
00:38:55.039 --> 00:38:58.360
<v Speaker 5>said that he had him in a headlock, that at

634
00:38:58.360 --> 00:39:00.400
<v Speaker 5>one point one of the kids got away, he chased

635
00:39:00.440 --> 00:39:03.039
<v Speaker 5>him down and he said Jesse seemed to say that

636
00:39:03.159 --> 00:39:08.000
<v Speaker 5>he left before the kids were disposed of that before

637
00:39:08.039 --> 00:39:12.880
<v Speaker 5>that they were murdered, but you know, it was pretty

638
00:39:12.880 --> 00:39:15.800
<v Speaker 5>graphic and very very for me thou and that the

639
00:39:15.880 --> 00:39:20.519
<v Speaker 5>recording of the first confession is online.

640
00:39:21.320 --> 00:39:25.000
<v Speaker 4>Now forensically through the whether they were in the water

641
00:39:25.159 --> 00:39:32.360
<v Speaker 4>or not. Were the police concerned about forensic corroboration with

642
00:39:32.480 --> 00:39:35.159
<v Speaker 4>some of the details that he had specifically at about

643
00:39:35.199 --> 00:39:37.960
<v Speaker 4>the murder. They realized early on that this guy had

644
00:39:37.960 --> 00:39:40.920
<v Speaker 4>a sort of a frustrating sort of manner in terms

645
00:39:40.920 --> 00:39:49.400
<v Speaker 4>of discounting himself or contradicting himself ten seconds from an

646
00:39:49.400 --> 00:39:52.800
<v Speaker 4>earlier statement, But in terms of the actual details of

647
00:39:52.840 --> 00:39:56.360
<v Speaker 4>the murder, did they line up forensically? Was there were

648
00:39:56.360 --> 00:40:00.840
<v Speaker 4>they cognizant of that the situation at that time when

649
00:40:00.840 --> 00:40:02.239
<v Speaker 4>he was given those that dev of information.

650
00:40:03.320 --> 00:40:06.519
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, I think there was some consistencies of what happened

651
00:40:06.519 --> 00:40:09.119
<v Speaker 5>to the boy. The beatings and the kind of torture that

652
00:40:09.239 --> 00:40:13.239
<v Speaker 5>took place was consistent with what happened was found through

653
00:40:13.280 --> 00:40:16.679
<v Speaker 5>the medical examination. So I think without a doubt there

654
00:40:16.719 --> 00:40:20.559
<v Speaker 5>were consistencies there there. It wasn't there wasn't anything that

655
00:40:20.719 --> 00:40:23.679
<v Speaker 5>was super strong that tied him directly to it. But

656
00:40:23.920 --> 00:40:25.960
<v Speaker 5>he did he did say, you know, he talked about

657
00:40:25.960 --> 00:40:29.920
<v Speaker 5>the ropes. He did he talked about things, and you know,

658
00:40:30.480 --> 00:40:34.480
<v Speaker 5>they didn't find in the medical examination any evidence of

659
00:40:34.599 --> 00:40:38.840
<v Speaker 5>sexual assault. It was really just miss Kelly's statement or

660
00:40:38.880 --> 00:40:43.239
<v Speaker 5>his confession that indicated that. So there were there were

661
00:40:43.280 --> 00:40:46.480
<v Speaker 5>some inconsistencies between what was able to be found and

662
00:40:46.599 --> 00:40:48.639
<v Speaker 5>what the confession.

663
00:40:48.280 --> 00:40:54.719
<v Speaker 4>Was, such as the rope versus what they were actually

664
00:40:54.760 --> 00:40:55.599
<v Speaker 4>bound with, right.

665
00:40:56.159 --> 00:40:58.119
<v Speaker 5>Right, So he said rope and they were actually bound

666
00:40:58.199 --> 00:41:02.480
<v Speaker 5>with with shoe strings, and you know, so he was

667
00:41:02.599 --> 00:41:04.880
<v Speaker 5>kind of he was consistent to a certain extent, but

668
00:41:04.960 --> 00:41:09.639
<v Speaker 5>like I said, you know, there were definitely variance. Is

669
00:41:09.679 --> 00:41:14.119
<v Speaker 5>an understanding that that the defense definitely brought up during Trump.

670
00:41:15.320 --> 00:41:19.519
<v Speaker 4>What was Jesse ms Kelly's I guess he's confessing, so

671
00:41:19.599 --> 00:41:21.960
<v Speaker 4>he's not doesn't have an alibi. And part of what

672
00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:24.880
<v Speaker 4>you say about in terms of the inconsistencies are the

673
00:41:25.320 --> 00:41:31.039
<v Speaker 4>gross in in inconsistencies in terms of the time the

674
00:41:31.119 --> 00:41:36.639
<v Speaker 4>time frame here timeline, I should say this is enough

675
00:41:36.679 --> 00:41:40.920
<v Speaker 4>evidence to get Jason Baldwin arrested and Damian eckles tell

676
00:41:41.000 --> 00:41:45.199
<v Speaker 4>us what happens with Jason Baldwin before you talk about

677
00:41:45.360 --> 00:41:46.639
<v Speaker 4>Damian eccles.

678
00:41:47.719 --> 00:41:54.039
<v Speaker 5>Well, Jason, Jason Baldwin and they were essentially arrested and

679
00:41:54.519 --> 00:41:57.360
<v Speaker 5>brought in a lot of people started giving testimony, but

680
00:41:58.119 --> 00:42:06.599
<v Speaker 5>they were both tried separately, and Jason Baldwin was he

681
00:42:06.639 --> 00:42:10.000
<v Speaker 5>basically had no alibi. There was no stated alibi in

682
00:42:10.079 --> 00:42:13.119
<v Speaker 5>the trial, which was interesting. So he really didn't say

683
00:42:13.119 --> 00:42:15.920
<v Speaker 5>anything about that as far as you know specifics. When

684
00:42:15.920 --> 00:42:18.199
<v Speaker 5>they were arrested, a lot of people get testimony about

685
00:42:18.559 --> 00:42:21.920
<v Speaker 5>or talk to police and journalists about Baldwin and eccles

686
00:42:22.039 --> 00:42:26.360
<v Speaker 5>involvement in the occult. And then Damian Eckles tried to

687
00:42:26.360 --> 00:42:30.800
<v Speaker 5>commit suicide on June eighth, about five days after their arrest.

688
00:42:32.760 --> 00:42:37.159
<v Speaker 4>What about Damien echles alibi was it supported? What was

689
00:42:37.159 --> 00:42:37.800
<v Speaker 4>his alibi?

690
00:42:38.360 --> 00:42:40.280
<v Speaker 5>Well, they couldn't find it. He said that he was

691
00:42:40.360 --> 00:42:42.599
<v Speaker 5>on the phone with three different women during the time

692
00:42:42.599 --> 00:42:45.679
<v Speaker 5>of the murders. The murders were suspected to have taken

693
00:42:45.719 --> 00:42:49.079
<v Speaker 5>place sometime at dusk, sometime in the late afternoon or

694
00:42:49.079 --> 00:42:53.079
<v Speaker 5>early evening of that May fifth night, and he said

695
00:42:53.119 --> 00:42:56.159
<v Speaker 5>he was on the phone. And then when the police

696
00:42:56.199 --> 00:42:59.639
<v Speaker 5>investigated the supposed people that he was on the phone

697
00:42:59.639 --> 00:43:02.599
<v Speaker 5>with out that it was either on different days or

698
00:43:02.639 --> 00:43:05.000
<v Speaker 5>it just wasn't consistent with the times that he provided.

699
00:43:07.639 --> 00:43:12.480
<v Speaker 4>What's the most one of the most fascinating parts elements

700
00:43:12.519 --> 00:43:15.960
<v Speaker 4>of your book, which is an incredible and fascinating book itself,

701
00:43:17.199 --> 00:43:21.639
<v Speaker 4>is the way Damien Echols conducts himself in an interview

702
00:43:23.199 --> 00:43:26.960
<v Speaker 4>again when especially when the police are bringing up the

703
00:43:27.039 --> 00:43:31.239
<v Speaker 4>occult accusations and any evidence that they bring up, what

704
00:43:31.360 --> 00:43:34.880
<v Speaker 4>is his demeanor like, how does he conduct himself before

705
00:43:34.920 --> 00:43:38.360
<v Speaker 4>we get to again what you have pointed out is

706
00:43:38.440 --> 00:43:41.440
<v Speaker 4>very crucial and I agree with you the talk of

707
00:43:42.840 --> 00:43:43.800
<v Speaker 4>the urine.

708
00:43:45.079 --> 00:43:49.639
<v Speaker 5>Right well, Damien Echols was he was interviewed right away

709
00:43:49.679 --> 00:43:52.840
<v Speaker 5>after the murders and he indicated kind of a lot

710
00:43:52.840 --> 00:43:56.519
<v Speaker 5>of things about what happened in the case. He really

711
00:43:56.599 --> 00:43:59.599
<v Speaker 5>talked about what he thought about who did it, why

712
00:43:59.639 --> 00:44:03.119
<v Speaker 5>they did it. That he actually said that there was

713
00:44:03.159 --> 00:44:07.079
<v Speaker 5>a likelihood that the person did it because they enjoyed it,

714
00:44:07.840 --> 00:44:11.679
<v Speaker 5>and you know it was it was a very remarkable statement.

715
00:44:12.280 --> 00:44:15.519
<v Speaker 5>The the nobody had known because the boys were in

716
00:44:15.559 --> 00:44:20.400
<v Speaker 5>the water that there was any urine involved, but the uh,

717
00:44:21.079 --> 00:44:23.840
<v Speaker 5>you know, Damien Echles when he was first interviewed, said

718
00:44:23.840 --> 00:44:26.559
<v Speaker 5>that you know there was something having to having to do.

719
00:44:26.679 --> 00:44:29.960
<v Speaker 5>He said, you know that there was something involved with

720
00:44:30.119 --> 00:44:32.280
<v Speaker 5>urine in it. And then what happens was when they

721
00:44:32.320 --> 00:44:35.719
<v Speaker 5>when they actually investigated the medical investigator and he.

722
00:44:35.800 --> 00:44:37.800
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737
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738
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739
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741
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743
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748
00:45:36.639 --> 00:45:40.039
<v Speaker 5>Investigated two weeks later. He found evidence of urine in

749
00:45:40.760 --> 00:45:44.519
<v Speaker 5>there in their stomachs, and so Hackles himself had to

750
00:45:45.079 --> 00:45:46.840
<v Speaker 5>there's no reason why he would have brought that up

751
00:45:46.880 --> 00:45:51.000
<v Speaker 5>with the crucial initial interview that took place May seventh

752
00:45:51.079 --> 00:45:54.679
<v Speaker 5>between him and the police.

753
00:45:56.480 --> 00:45:58.960
<v Speaker 4>In terms of doing himself any favors, in terms of

754
00:45:58.960 --> 00:46:01.719
<v Speaker 4>the question about the cult, how does he conduct himself

755
00:46:01.760 --> 00:46:05.800
<v Speaker 4>in that area, as.

756
00:46:05.679 --> 00:46:09.000
<v Speaker 5>Far as like his his involvement in the occult as

757
00:46:09.039 --> 00:46:12.840
<v Speaker 5>the the initial part of the trial, you know, he

758
00:46:13.079 --> 00:46:15.159
<v Speaker 5>had I mean, it's hard, it was hard for him

759
00:46:15.159 --> 00:46:17.599
<v Speaker 5>to completely deny it. He at the time he had

760
00:46:17.599 --> 00:46:20.880
<v Speaker 5>the tattoo of E. V I L tattoo to cross

761
00:46:20.960 --> 00:46:24.000
<v Speaker 5>his left knuckles, and so did James Jason Baldwin. But

762
00:46:25.159 --> 00:46:28.679
<v Speaker 5>he couldn't really, he couldn't really denied. I don't I don't.

763
00:46:29.440 --> 00:46:31.440
<v Speaker 5>I don't think that he they really asked him too

764
00:46:31.480 --> 00:46:34.360
<v Speaker 5>much about the occult initially, but they definitely brought it

765
00:46:34.440 --> 00:46:37.639
<v Speaker 5>up during the trial. But he said like he was doing.

766
00:46:37.599 --> 00:46:37.920
<v Speaker 3>He was.

767
00:46:39.519 --> 00:46:41.440
<v Speaker 5>He's he had stated stuff that he had liked the

768
00:46:41.440 --> 00:46:44.480
<v Speaker 5>Bible and the Book of Revelations. He liked the devil,

769
00:46:44.599 --> 00:46:46.280
<v Speaker 5>so he you know, he brought that up at the

770
00:46:46.320 --> 00:46:51.480
<v Speaker 5>original the the original interview. He also said something about

771
00:46:51.519 --> 00:46:54.880
<v Speaker 5>the power, so he kind of indicated that he knew

772
00:46:54.880 --> 00:46:57.119
<v Speaker 5>about the cult. He said something about the the innocence

773
00:46:57.119 --> 00:46:59.559
<v Speaker 5>of the victim, the more power that the person would

774
00:46:59.559 --> 00:47:03.440
<v Speaker 5>have gotten in the sacrifice. So he did or reveals

775
00:47:03.480 --> 00:47:05.719
<v Speaker 5>stuff at the very beginning, now that I remember it.

776
00:47:06.360 --> 00:47:10.000
<v Speaker 5>And he also, you know, he he in his initial

777
00:47:10.039 --> 00:47:12.519
<v Speaker 5>interview or the time that the police talked to him

778
00:47:12.519 --> 00:47:14.760
<v Speaker 5>on May seventies said stuff about the wake of religion

779
00:47:15.239 --> 00:47:18.559
<v Speaker 5>and about evil being rewarded three times. So he definitely

780
00:47:19.320 --> 00:47:24.599
<v Speaker 5>showed that, you know, that there was He definitely showed

781
00:47:24.599 --> 00:47:26.079
<v Speaker 5>that he was interested in the occult when he was

782
00:47:26.079 --> 00:47:26.800
<v Speaker 5>first interviewed.

783
00:47:29.480 --> 00:47:33.840
<v Speaker 4>Was there any move by his attorneys to have him

784
00:47:34.880 --> 00:47:39.280
<v Speaker 4>psychiatrically assessed for the trial?

785
00:47:41.800 --> 00:47:44.039
<v Speaker 5>Not that not that I recall. I don't recall that

786
00:47:44.119 --> 00:47:49.519
<v Speaker 5>they had full let me think they had there was,

787
00:47:50.119 --> 00:47:53.840
<v Speaker 5>you know, I think that there was something that Yeah,

788
00:47:54.280 --> 00:47:55.760
<v Speaker 5>I don't, I don't recall. I don't think.

789
00:47:55.800 --> 00:48:01.960
<v Speaker 4>So now how do they with this you include that

790
00:48:02.039 --> 00:48:06.800
<v Speaker 4>there is if I'm not correct? Five separate confessions I

791
00:48:06.880 --> 00:48:10.480
<v Speaker 4>believe from Jesse ms Kelly, Am I not correct?

792
00:48:10.559 --> 00:48:14.320
<v Speaker 5>Correct? That is correct? He So the confessions took place

793
00:48:14.400 --> 00:48:18.400
<v Speaker 5>after his conviction. After his conviction, so his first confession

794
00:48:18.400 --> 00:48:21.719
<v Speaker 5>confession was the June third, nineteen ninety three confession. He

795
00:48:21.880 --> 00:48:26.920
<v Speaker 5>also confessed he actually met with his attorney in August

796
00:48:27.079 --> 00:48:29.800
<v Speaker 5>and confessed to him in nineteen ninety three, which was

797
00:48:29.840 --> 00:48:32.480
<v Speaker 5>never brought up. But then once he got sentenced, he

798
00:48:32.599 --> 00:48:35.760
<v Speaker 5>confessed over and over again. And so those confessions are recorded.

799
00:48:36.000 --> 00:48:39.039
<v Speaker 5>I put them in my book to show that you know,

800
00:48:39.880 --> 00:48:42.760
<v Speaker 5>he clearly is involved in the case. All the detailed.

801
00:48:42.800 --> 00:48:46.360
<v Speaker 5>There's definitely details that were confirmed and confirmations about a

802
00:48:46.360 --> 00:48:49.280
<v Speaker 5>whiskey bottle that they drank. They actually found that where

803
00:48:49.280 --> 00:48:53.880
<v Speaker 5>he said it was. But he confessed after he was sentenced,

804
00:48:53.880 --> 00:48:57.119
<v Speaker 5>which is like February fourth, on the way to jail,

805
00:48:57.280 --> 00:49:01.079
<v Speaker 5>he actually confessed to the police. Then he talked in

806
00:49:01.079 --> 00:49:04.159
<v Speaker 5>front of his attorney. He said that, and this is

807
00:49:04.159 --> 00:49:07.480
<v Speaker 5>February eighth, he said that he did it again. And

808
00:49:07.519 --> 00:49:11.480
<v Speaker 5>then on February seventeenth, he brings the prosecutors over and

809
00:49:11.559 --> 00:49:15.239
<v Speaker 5>he confesses again in front of his in front of

810
00:49:15.239 --> 00:49:17.159
<v Speaker 5>his attorney. He was begging him not to do it.

811
00:49:17.239 --> 00:49:19.960
<v Speaker 5>So he confessed over and over and over again. So

812
00:49:19.960 --> 00:49:24.800
<v Speaker 5>it's fairly clear that Jesse, Damien, and Jason were involved

813
00:49:24.800 --> 00:49:26.559
<v Speaker 5>in the murders.

814
00:49:28.039 --> 00:49:31.639
<v Speaker 4>Why is it that there is talk about him because

815
00:49:31.679 --> 00:49:36.079
<v Speaker 4>of the evidence, him being just to star witness, why

816
00:49:36.119 --> 00:49:39.920
<v Speaker 4>he does not testify against the other two, and why

817
00:49:40.280 --> 00:49:42.519
<v Speaker 4>his case is separated to explain that?

818
00:49:43.599 --> 00:49:47.639
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, well, I think that because of his situation, they

819
00:49:47.760 --> 00:49:52.239
<v Speaker 5>separated the case and he wasn't going to testify against them,

820
00:49:52.400 --> 00:49:55.039
<v Speaker 5>and so the cases were were separated.

821
00:49:57.800 --> 00:50:00.559
<v Speaker 4>But there was talk originally that he once he went

822
00:50:00.559 --> 00:50:04.159
<v Speaker 4>in for that third confession or the confession where he

823
00:50:04.719 --> 00:50:07.760
<v Speaker 4>was advised against it by his attorneys, yet he did

824
00:50:08.039 --> 00:50:12.880
<v Speaker 4>still confess and gave even more clarification of details other

825
00:50:12.920 --> 00:50:17.239
<v Speaker 4>things that he said he had misled the investigators regarding.

826
00:50:18.000 --> 00:50:21.519
<v Speaker 4>So this is a very strong confession with his lawyer

827
00:50:21.559 --> 00:50:23.199
<v Speaker 4>strongly advising him not to do that.

828
00:50:23.639 --> 00:50:28.119
<v Speaker 5>Yeah. Yeah, those those confessions there. You can hear his

829
00:50:28.199 --> 00:50:30.760
<v Speaker 5>lawyers saying, don't do it, it's against your interests. But

830
00:50:31.360 --> 00:50:33.880
<v Speaker 5>miss Kelly keeps saying, I want something done about it.

831
00:50:33.920 --> 00:50:35.199
<v Speaker 5>I want something done about it.

832
00:50:36.719 --> 00:50:42.400
<v Speaker 4>So let's get to an important issue, because this is like,

833
00:50:42.599 --> 00:50:44.719
<v Speaker 4>as you put in the book, and I admire that

834
00:50:44.800 --> 00:50:48.239
<v Speaker 4>you did this, and it's I know it's necessary as well,

835
00:50:48.320 --> 00:50:52.000
<v Speaker 4>is that you addressed the supporters, because by this time,

836
00:50:53.440 --> 00:50:57.719
<v Speaker 4>you know, Paradise lost as I don't know if I

837
00:50:58.000 --> 00:51:01.000
<v Speaker 4>can't remember if it weren't earned it in the Academy Awards,

838
00:51:01.039 --> 00:51:04.239
<v Speaker 4>but earned a lot of praise, got a lot of exposure.

839
00:51:04.719 --> 00:51:07.960
<v Speaker 4>You talk about Peter Jackson involved with this, So there

840
00:51:08.000 --> 00:51:10.199
<v Speaker 4>is a lot of people who have watched that program

841
00:51:10.719 --> 00:51:14.639
<v Speaker 4>been I guess they think dutifully outraged and they've based

842
00:51:14.679 --> 00:51:19.400
<v Speaker 4>their conclusions on that. And so in your book Abomination,

843
00:51:19.599 --> 00:51:22.440
<v Speaker 4>you actually address those people and some of those things.

844
00:51:22.440 --> 00:51:25.639
<v Speaker 4>So let's address the really one of it seems like

845
00:51:25.679 --> 00:51:28.440
<v Speaker 4>they're One of their big big contentions is that that

846
00:51:28.880 --> 00:51:32.079
<v Speaker 4>jesse ms Kelly has got the IQ of seventy two

847
00:51:32.280 --> 00:51:35.400
<v Speaker 4>or seventy eight or doesn't have his faculties about him

848
00:51:35.519 --> 00:51:43.239
<v Speaker 4>and manipulative, manipulative police officers were planting details, important details,

849
00:51:43.280 --> 00:51:48.639
<v Speaker 4>not less important details, tell us about his IQ and

850
00:51:48.800 --> 00:51:51.280
<v Speaker 4>how you discuss it in the book about Jesse ms

851
00:51:51.400 --> 00:51:54.280
<v Speaker 4>Kelly his ability to be able to be interrogated.

852
00:51:55.559 --> 00:51:58.199
<v Speaker 5>I think that was to their benefit to get Jesse

853
00:51:58.280 --> 00:52:01.000
<v Speaker 5>miss Kelly's IQ under seven, you know, to make him

854
00:52:01.159 --> 00:52:06.199
<v Speaker 5>borderline retarded, and that would discount the confession. The reality

855
00:52:06.280 --> 00:52:10.199
<v Speaker 5>is that he had done another IQ test that he

856
00:52:10.280 --> 00:52:13.280
<v Speaker 5>scored something closer to an eighty eighty eight eighty four

857
00:52:13.320 --> 00:52:15.960
<v Speaker 5>to eighty eight. And you can tell just from the

858
00:52:16.000 --> 00:52:19.000
<v Speaker 5>confessions that are reported that you know, he knows what

859
00:52:19.039 --> 00:52:21.000
<v Speaker 5>was going on. He's talking about specific things. So I

860
00:52:21.039 --> 00:52:24.159
<v Speaker 5>think that was the defense tactic to kind of discount

861
00:52:24.199 --> 00:52:27.920
<v Speaker 5>and get his testimony thrown out. And you know, then

862
00:52:28.559 --> 00:52:30.639
<v Speaker 5>there are other things that where they talk about, you know,

863
00:52:30.639 --> 00:52:35.119
<v Speaker 5>they supposedly, you know, brow beat him for all these hours.

864
00:52:35.159 --> 00:52:38.039
<v Speaker 5>It was an eleven hour grueling interview. But there's no

865
00:52:38.119 --> 00:52:41.079
<v Speaker 5>evidence of that either. And I think that that's fairly

866
00:52:41.159 --> 00:52:43.719
<v Speaker 5>clear that that can be rejected. But you know, it's

867
00:52:43.800 --> 00:52:46.000
<v Speaker 5>very important to see that say those because, like you

868
00:52:46.039 --> 00:52:50.000
<v Speaker 5>said that, the public's understanding of the case was marred

869
00:52:50.039 --> 00:52:53.840
<v Speaker 5>by these, you know, documentaries, the three documentaries that came out,

870
00:52:54.239 --> 00:52:57.679
<v Speaker 5>and also by Echos's West the Memphis, which came out

871
00:52:57.719 --> 00:53:00.840
<v Speaker 5>I think in twenty thirteen or twenty twelve. Well, so

872
00:53:01.159 --> 00:53:03.480
<v Speaker 5>you know, they get a whole different view of the

873
00:53:03.519 --> 00:53:07.119
<v Speaker 5>whole court case. That's different from actually reading what actually

874
00:53:07.199 --> 00:53:09.239
<v Speaker 5>happened during court, you know, during the court cases.

875
00:53:12.119 --> 00:53:15.000
<v Speaker 4>I mus allass this now while it's on my mind,

876
00:53:15.039 --> 00:53:18.880
<v Speaker 4>and we were talking about Peter Jackson and celebrities. We're

877
00:53:18.880 --> 00:53:25.639
<v Speaker 4>talking about beloved Hollywood actors and musicians and celebrities. Metallica

878
00:53:25.840 --> 00:53:34.159
<v Speaker 4>was in the Paradise Lost soundtrack Eddie Vedder from Pearl Jam.

879
00:53:34.199 --> 00:53:38.320
<v Speaker 4>I believe we have Johnny Depp very very much involved,

880
00:53:38.320 --> 00:53:41.840
<v Speaker 4>Peter Jackson from Lord of the Rings, other people, other

881
00:53:41.880 --> 00:53:44.119
<v Speaker 4>celebrities involved to the tune, Like you say, ten to

882
00:53:44.199 --> 00:53:47.599
<v Speaker 4>twenty million dollars able to bet, to hire the best

883
00:53:47.599 --> 00:53:52.199
<v Speaker 4>depellate lawyers, and also more importantly I think, is to

884
00:53:52.320 --> 00:53:57.840
<v Speaker 4>hire expert testimony and expert witnesses and their testimony. As

885
00:53:58.039 --> 00:54:04.679
<v Speaker 4>everyone can imagine, more money, sometimes better the not sometimes

886
00:54:04.880 --> 00:54:09.519
<v Speaker 4>the better the expert testimony. So I want to ask

887
00:54:09.559 --> 00:54:13.199
<v Speaker 4>this question because you have done a book about Crowley,

888
00:54:13.239 --> 00:54:15.440
<v Speaker 4>you have commented, and I don't want to get too

889
00:54:15.519 --> 00:54:17.079
<v Speaker 4>much into this because we have to go through this

890
00:54:17.159 --> 00:54:20.039
<v Speaker 4>story which is very very important in that some of

891
00:54:20.039 --> 00:54:28.480
<v Speaker 4>these celebrities have incorporated the philosophy and the symbolism and

892
00:54:28.639 --> 00:54:35.320
<v Speaker 4>the I guess, I guess just like somebody that might

893
00:54:36.079 --> 00:54:39.960
<v Speaker 4>rock stars have done before adopted the Nazi symbolism and

894
00:54:40.000 --> 00:54:44.039
<v Speaker 4>some of the fashion and we'll say so some of

895
00:54:44.079 --> 00:54:47.880
<v Speaker 4>those things where musicians dabble with that for controversial reasons

896
00:54:47.920 --> 00:54:50.800
<v Speaker 4>and for just to be bad so that you know

897
00:54:51.199 --> 00:54:52.840
<v Speaker 4>your parents want you to get rid of the records.

898
00:54:52.880 --> 00:54:55.800
<v Speaker 4>I think that's been telltale if you get to your

899
00:54:55.840 --> 00:55:02.039
<v Speaker 4>parents upset. But let's get back to its effect in

900
00:55:02.079 --> 00:55:07.480
<v Speaker 4>this case here in terms of were these musicians and

901
00:55:07.760 --> 00:55:11.480
<v Speaker 4>directors and these seemingly intelligent people that are certainly not

902
00:55:12.239 --> 00:55:17.440
<v Speaker 4>sacrificing babies, maybe probably not even sacrificing anything, probably vegan

903
00:55:17.840 --> 00:55:21.199
<v Speaker 4>for for God's sakes. But what is it a matter

904
00:55:21.280 --> 00:55:24.239
<v Speaker 4>of that they that there? They were, They were juped,

905
00:55:24.239 --> 00:55:27.880
<v Speaker 4>they were hypnotized. Are they naive? Do they dabble? Do

906
00:55:28.000 --> 00:55:30.880
<v Speaker 4>they only understand Crowley a little bit? Do they not

907
00:55:31.039 --> 00:55:34.639
<v Speaker 4>understand Crowley? Do they did not do the investigation? What

908
00:55:34.800 --> 00:55:35.800
<v Speaker 4>is it about this?

909
00:55:36.079 --> 00:55:38.400
<v Speaker 5>It's hard and that's a great question. When I first

910
00:55:38.440 --> 00:55:41.079
<v Speaker 5>when I first investigated this case in twenty twelve, I

911
00:55:41.159 --> 00:55:44.880
<v Speaker 5>really didn't know about the involvement of the celebrities. I

912
00:55:44.880 --> 00:55:48.079
<v Speaker 5>didn't understand them. I didn't know much about them. The

913
00:55:48.079 --> 00:55:51.519
<v Speaker 5>more I researched, the more I found out that they are.

914
00:55:52.000 --> 00:55:57.599
<v Speaker 5>Many of the Central Core celebrities have similar outlook Damian Eckles,

915
00:55:57.599 --> 00:56:01.719
<v Speaker 5>and I think that there were spiritual traveler fellow travelers.

916
00:56:02.079 --> 00:56:07.000
<v Speaker 5>Johnny Depp himself got a tattoo with Damian Eccles that

917
00:56:07.199 --> 00:56:09.760
<v Speaker 5>represents what's called wind over Heaven, and somebody in the

918
00:56:09.880 --> 00:56:13.119
<v Speaker 5>cole told me it represents Lucifer, the Lord of the Air.

919
00:56:13.639 --> 00:56:17.199
<v Speaker 5>And Peter Jackson also got one of Damian Eckles style tattoos,

920
00:56:17.199 --> 00:56:19.519
<v Speaker 5>So a lot of I think that that was really

921
00:56:19.519 --> 00:56:22.920
<v Speaker 5>one of the Core celebrities that's really who. They were

922
00:56:23.000 --> 00:56:27.280
<v Speaker 5>very similar in outlook as Echles. Like Margaret Choe, who

923
00:56:27.320 --> 00:56:32.320
<v Speaker 5>was a comedian, called called Damian Eckles the heavy metal

924
00:56:33.000 --> 00:56:36.079
<v Speaker 5>rock star, you know, like she really admiringly liked him.

925
00:56:36.360 --> 00:56:40.119
<v Speaker 5>So I do think that he called him the heavy

926
00:56:40.159 --> 00:56:43.519
<v Speaker 5>metal Nelson Mandela, that's what she called Damian eckriyanm. So

927
00:56:43.920 --> 00:56:48.360
<v Speaker 5>I do think that some people really are are sympathetic

928
00:56:48.400 --> 00:56:53.519
<v Speaker 5>with him because of their similar ideology. And an interesting

929
00:56:53.559 --> 00:56:57.000
<v Speaker 5>point is that Marilyn Manson, who was the like satanic

930
00:56:57.119 --> 00:56:59.920
<v Speaker 5>rock star, he was kind of a hidden secret supporter

931
00:57:00.519 --> 00:57:02.719
<v Speaker 5>of Damian Eckles, and he and Damian Eckles have hung

932
00:57:02.719 --> 00:57:05.480
<v Speaker 5>out together. So there's pictures of them together. There's pictures

933
00:57:05.480 --> 00:57:09.760
<v Speaker 5>of Eckels and Depth after the after the release, and

934
00:57:10.599 --> 00:57:13.440
<v Speaker 5>Peter Jackson was a huge supporter, even like let Eckels

935
00:57:13.480 --> 00:57:17.599
<v Speaker 5>live in his house in New York. So it's very strange,

936
00:57:17.679 --> 00:57:18.960
<v Speaker 5>it's very very strange.

937
00:57:19.599 --> 00:57:22.480
<v Speaker 4>Well, you have cited because again I think this is

938
00:57:22.519 --> 00:57:25.920
<v Speaker 4>a great example, and I got to I think, don't

939
00:57:25.960 --> 00:57:29.000
<v Speaker 4>want to, you know, imagine that's the case in terms

940
00:57:29.000 --> 00:57:32.079
<v Speaker 4>of they all believe in human sacrifice. Like I said,

941
00:57:32.079 --> 00:57:34.840
<v Speaker 4>I don't even think they would believe in in animal sacrifice,

942
00:57:34.920 --> 00:57:37.559
<v Speaker 4>no matter how far or deep they are into this.

943
00:57:37.760 --> 00:57:41.239
<v Speaker 4>Now I could be wrong, but you do cite other examples,

944
00:57:41.760 --> 00:57:46.440
<v Speaker 4>like again, intelligent, respectable people. You would think Norman Mahler

945
00:57:47.079 --> 00:57:50.239
<v Speaker 4>uh supporting a former killer, and you do cite a

946
00:57:50.280 --> 00:57:52.320
<v Speaker 4>couple of cases. So cite a couple of cases like that,

947
00:57:52.400 --> 00:57:56.480
<v Speaker 4>where again the celebrities champion these guys because of their

948
00:57:57.000 --> 00:58:02.400
<v Speaker 4>supposed literary talents and they were wrong. Right.

949
00:58:02.519 --> 00:58:05.559
<v Speaker 5>One was a famous guy, his name was Hank Abbott,

950
00:58:05.559 --> 00:58:08.400
<v Speaker 5>and he was kind of similar to Echols. I put

951
00:58:08.480 --> 00:58:11.079
<v Speaker 5>him in the book because he had written a book

952
00:58:11.119 --> 00:58:13.440
<v Speaker 5>like Echoes had written a book in jail that was

953
00:58:13.519 --> 00:58:16.800
<v Speaker 5>very sympathetic, and it drew all these people to be

954
00:58:16.920 --> 00:58:19.360
<v Speaker 5>involved with him. Norman Mailer, it's just a perfect example.

955
00:58:19.400 --> 00:58:22.519
<v Speaker 5>He was like with this cause lev kind of killer sympathizer.

956
00:58:22.559 --> 00:58:25.000
<v Speaker 5>Abbot gets out, he writes a book called in the

957
00:58:25.039 --> 00:58:28.679
<v Speaker 5>Belly of the Beast, comes a nationwide, nationwide bestseller. But

958
00:58:28.880 --> 00:58:32.519
<v Speaker 5>Abbot kind of doesn't change his stripes. He gets out

959
00:58:32.559 --> 00:58:36.639
<v Speaker 5>and kills a waiter over an argument over nothing. And

960
00:58:37.559 --> 00:58:40.159
<v Speaker 5>at the trial, Mayler was there, Susan Sarandon was there,

961
00:58:40.159 --> 00:58:43.840
<v Speaker 5>Aunt Christopher Walking. So these were people who were sympathetic

962
00:58:43.920 --> 00:58:46.880
<v Speaker 5>with a guy who had killed twice. There was another

963
00:58:46.960 --> 00:58:50.599
<v Speaker 5>case I quote, which is Jack Underwager. It took place

964
00:58:50.679 --> 00:58:54.159
<v Speaker 5>in Austria, but he was a known person who had

965
00:58:54.159 --> 00:58:57.559
<v Speaker 5>been in jail. He had been in for pimping and

966
00:58:57.599 --> 00:59:00.599
<v Speaker 5>petty crime. He gets in jail for the murder of

967
00:59:00.639 --> 00:59:04.320
<v Speaker 5>a prostitute, writes a book, and then the the literati

968
00:59:04.360 --> 00:59:06.480
<v Speaker 5>and literati of Austria get him out when he goes

969
00:59:06.519 --> 00:59:10.199
<v Speaker 5>out and kills again. So and then I also talk

970
00:59:10.239 --> 00:59:14.159
<v Speaker 5>about Mumia Abu Jamal, who you know, all the evidence

971
00:59:14.199 --> 00:59:17.679
<v Speaker 5>points to him killing the police officer Faulkner and he's

972
00:59:17.719 --> 00:59:19.719
<v Speaker 5>still kind of a hero of the left, and he

973
00:59:19.760 --> 00:59:22.599
<v Speaker 5>has against Susan Trandon pops up. But all these other

974
00:59:22.639 --> 00:59:26.360
<v Speaker 5>people are very simple sympathetic towards this person. So I

975
00:59:26.519 --> 00:59:29.199
<v Speaker 5>liken them a lot too, Damien Echls in the West

976
00:59:29.239 --> 00:59:32.719
<v Speaker 5>Memphis three as it's kind of a sympathetic figures for

977
00:59:32.880 --> 00:59:33.840
<v Speaker 5>these celebrities.

978
00:59:36.840 --> 00:59:41.679
<v Speaker 4>Now you've watched everything including Paradise Lost and the Triology

979
00:59:41.760 --> 00:59:47.079
<v Speaker 4>trilogy of documentaries and the movie everything, the videos you

980
00:59:47.119 --> 00:59:49.280
<v Speaker 4>say that you have posted on your uh on your

981
00:59:49.320 --> 00:59:54.360
<v Speaker 4>site uh right that talk about Damien Echles and interviews,

982
00:59:54.400 --> 00:59:57.760
<v Speaker 4>So you have everything, every shred and bit of information

983
00:59:58.480 --> 01:00:01.039
<v Speaker 4>not only stored in this book, but everything that you

984
01:00:01.159 --> 01:00:04.480
<v Speaker 4>have in terms of this entire project in terms of evidence,

985
01:00:07.400 --> 01:00:12.679
<v Speaker 4>What is it exactly that people have the biggest problem

986
01:00:12.719 --> 01:00:16.320
<v Speaker 4>with Because it's been depicted that they just liked that

987
01:00:16.400 --> 01:00:19.199
<v Speaker 4>these guys were railroaded because they liked black shirts and

988
01:00:19.280 --> 01:00:22.519
<v Speaker 4>Metallica and how can they get so far how can

989
01:00:22.559 --> 01:00:24.880
<v Speaker 4>they get so far off? So what was it about?

990
01:00:25.239 --> 01:00:29.000
<v Speaker 4>Where did they hinge these ideas? I know that they

991
01:00:29.039 --> 01:00:32.039
<v Speaker 4>would take the separate ideas, but again, if you could

992
01:00:32.639 --> 01:00:37.280
<v Speaker 4>kind of dissect on where the filmmakers either went wrong

993
01:00:37.719 --> 01:00:41.480
<v Speaker 4>or purposely directed them in the wrong direction. Where were

994
01:00:41.519 --> 01:00:44.840
<v Speaker 4>the key points where people that are supporters of their

995
01:00:44.880 --> 01:00:47.199
<v Speaker 4>innocence were duped?

996
01:00:48.920 --> 01:00:51.840
<v Speaker 5>Well, I think that the you know, the second and

997
01:00:51.840 --> 01:00:54.559
<v Speaker 5>there were the trilogy. I think the first Paradise Lost

998
01:00:55.119 --> 01:00:58.440
<v Speaker 5>was basically keyed upon echel to finish off with saying

999
01:00:58.440 --> 01:01:01.559
<v Speaker 5>Eckels saying that he was the West Memphis Boogeymans. But

1000
01:01:01.599 --> 01:01:05.559
<v Speaker 5>then the second and third of that franchise they point

1001
01:01:05.599 --> 01:01:07.679
<v Speaker 5>the finger at John mark Fires and then the third

1002
01:01:07.719 --> 01:01:10.320
<v Speaker 5>they pointed to Terry Hobbs. So they've got this alternate

1003
01:01:11.000 --> 01:01:15.039
<v Speaker 5>possible suspect. And unfortunately, Terry Hobbs was kind of the

1004
01:01:15.039 --> 01:01:17.599
<v Speaker 5>whipping boy at the latter half of their release, and

1005
01:01:17.599 --> 01:01:20.599
<v Speaker 5>they convinced all these people that Terry Hobbs was involved,

1006
01:01:20.639 --> 01:01:22.280
<v Speaker 5>and there's no way he could have been involved. But

1007
01:01:23.079 --> 01:01:25.320
<v Speaker 5>they had all this stuff come out about Terry Hobbs

1008
01:01:25.360 --> 01:01:27.960
<v Speaker 5>not saying they've seen the kids laugh. They had these

1009
01:01:27.960 --> 01:01:31.360
<v Speaker 5>two convicted criminals rapists say that Terry Hobbs had a

1010
01:01:31.400 --> 01:01:34.360
<v Speaker 5>family secret, and I think that that was captivating. I

1011
01:01:34.360 --> 01:01:37.840
<v Speaker 5>think that there is a narrative there that sympathetic people

1012
01:01:38.480 --> 01:01:40.760
<v Speaker 5>are attracted to, which is, you know this poor people

1013
01:01:40.840 --> 01:01:43.719
<v Speaker 5>getting railroaded by the system. And it didn't help that

1014
01:01:43.760 --> 01:01:46.760
<v Speaker 5>he was from the South. So all these Southern attorneys

1015
01:01:46.760 --> 01:01:48.880
<v Speaker 5>and everything were seen in that kind of frame of

1016
01:01:49.599 --> 01:01:51.639
<v Speaker 5>you know, it's a red state and there are a

1017
01:01:51.639 --> 01:01:54.639
<v Speaker 5>bunch of hillbillies bill Billy Lawier's. I didn't find any

1018
01:01:54.719 --> 01:01:56.920
<v Speaker 5>of that. I thought that they were people in a

1019
01:01:56.960 --> 01:02:01.079
<v Speaker 5>difficult situation doing the best they could. But I think

1020
01:02:01.119 --> 01:02:03.559
<v Speaker 5>that that narrative and the other thing that's interesting is

1021
01:02:03.599 --> 01:02:06.559
<v Speaker 5>that I think that the PR really worked. I think

1022
01:02:06.559 --> 01:02:08.400
<v Speaker 5>that if you have Johnny DApp and all these other

1023
01:02:08.440 --> 01:02:11.519
<v Speaker 5>people saying that they're innocent, you know, it's kind of

1024
01:02:11.559 --> 01:02:14.760
<v Speaker 5>a bullhorn celebrity. For whatever it's worth, people contend to

1025
01:02:14.760 --> 01:02:17.440
<v Speaker 5>believe celebrities. So all these people that came out, they

1026
01:02:17.559 --> 01:02:21.480
<v Speaker 5>just assumed that that was the story and it couldn't

1027
01:02:21.519 --> 01:02:23.119
<v Speaker 5>be farther from the truth. But you know, I think

1028
01:02:23.119 --> 01:02:26.920
<v Speaker 5>that that's what the potency of this of this case

1029
01:02:26.960 --> 01:02:28.840
<v Speaker 5>and how it got twisted in the minds of the

1030
01:02:28.840 --> 01:02:31.199
<v Speaker 5>public is really the celebrities in the PR. It was

1031
01:02:31.280 --> 01:02:34.559
<v Speaker 5>very effective. They have a very skilled PR guy named

1032
01:02:34.599 --> 01:02:37.559
<v Speaker 5>Surry Lonie Suri out of New York, And you know,

1033
01:02:37.599 --> 01:02:41.000
<v Speaker 5>it begs the question why does somebody whose innocent need

1034
01:02:41.039 --> 01:02:43.519
<v Speaker 5>a PR person? But yeah, I think that, you know,

1035
01:02:43.800 --> 01:02:46.400
<v Speaker 5>there there was a lot, there was a very strong

1036
01:02:46.519 --> 01:02:49.159
<v Speaker 5>PR element in this whole case. And I do mention

1037
01:02:49.320 --> 01:02:51.360
<v Speaker 5>that briefly in my book.

1038
01:02:53.519 --> 01:02:57.000
<v Speaker 4>How did the celebrities in Hollywood get involved in the

1039
01:02:57.000 --> 01:03:01.639
<v Speaker 4>first place? There was? Who was the contact and what

1040
01:03:01.719 --> 01:03:06.360
<v Speaker 4>was it exactly about that? How they contacted somebody in

1041
01:03:06.400 --> 01:03:10.760
<v Speaker 4>Hollywood that first person, sympathetic person. How was it they

1042
01:03:10.800 --> 01:03:13.039
<v Speaker 4>convinced him? What is it that they said? How did

1043
01:03:13.079 --> 01:03:13.320
<v Speaker 4>that come?

1044
01:03:13.400 --> 01:03:15.880
<v Speaker 5>That's a great question. You know, Echoles himself when he

1045
01:03:15.920 --> 01:03:18.960
<v Speaker 5>was in jail, he has a wife, he got married,

1046
01:03:19.440 --> 01:03:23.000
<v Speaker 5>and she seemed to be the intermediary between Echos and

1047
01:03:23.079 --> 01:03:26.760
<v Speaker 5>all these celebrities, and the celebrities got involved in kind

1048
01:03:26.760 --> 01:03:29.400
<v Speaker 5>of a trickle. I was my understanding. At least. What

1049
01:03:29.440 --> 01:03:32.400
<v Speaker 5>they say is that Johnny Depp called her and said

1050
01:03:32.440 --> 01:03:35.320
<v Speaker 5>you need help. So a lot of these people, but

1051
01:03:35.400 --> 01:03:38.639
<v Speaker 5>it seems like they all kind of banded together through

1052
01:03:38.679 --> 01:03:42.079
<v Speaker 5>their own network and to help him out. So it's

1053
01:03:42.199 --> 01:03:47.000
<v Speaker 5>not there's no real overt thing of these celebrities, but

1054
01:03:47.039 --> 01:03:50.239
<v Speaker 5>they held all of these banned meetings and raised tons

1055
01:03:50.239 --> 01:03:52.559
<v Speaker 5>of money. Like you said, it's ten to twenty million dollars.

1056
01:03:52.800 --> 01:03:56.320
<v Speaker 5>It's an incredible sum of money that was put to

1057
01:03:56.400 --> 01:03:58.440
<v Speaker 5>use to get these guys out of jail. But I

1058
01:03:58.440 --> 01:04:01.119
<v Speaker 5>don't think that there was really an over been steven

1059
01:04:01.199 --> 01:04:04.320
<v Speaker 5>of all these people at one point coming together. I

1060
01:04:04.320 --> 01:04:06.199
<v Speaker 5>think it was kind of a trickle like Henry Rollins

1061
01:04:06.199 --> 01:04:08.840
<v Speaker 5>got involved, and that got somebody else involved, and then

1062
01:04:08.880 --> 01:04:12.519
<v Speaker 5>Johnny Deupp got involved in By twenty five or twenty

1063
01:04:12.599 --> 01:04:15.320
<v Speaker 5>oh eight, there's just this huge horde of celebrities involved

1064
01:04:15.320 --> 01:04:17.440
<v Speaker 5>in the West Memphis three case.

1065
01:04:20.679 --> 01:04:23.119
<v Speaker 4>I tend to think, and I mentioned this to you

1066
01:04:23.199 --> 01:04:26.519
<v Speaker 4>earlier in the day, that I think that people in general,

1067
01:04:27.199 --> 01:04:31.199
<v Speaker 4>because they have never experienced a trial, because they've probably

1068
01:04:31.239 --> 01:04:35.719
<v Speaker 4>not read I can guaranteed not read entire transcripts, they

1069
01:04:35.760 --> 01:04:41.119
<v Speaker 4>wouldn't get through it. And they're used to seeing films

1070
01:04:41.199 --> 01:04:46.159
<v Speaker 4>and documentaries and news clips, so incomplete documentaries with a

1071
01:04:46.199 --> 01:04:50.119
<v Speaker 4>certain focus. Again, Making of a Murderer is a good

1072
01:04:50.119 --> 01:04:55.039
<v Speaker 4>example information coming from the defense. So do you think

1073
01:04:55.079 --> 01:04:58.880
<v Speaker 4>there might be a bias potentially and just the power

1074
01:04:59.039 --> 01:05:03.480
<v Speaker 4>of film versus in terms of the ability to outrage

1075
01:05:04.480 --> 01:05:07.280
<v Speaker 4>compared to a book, A book seems to be more reasonable.

1076
01:05:08.079 --> 01:05:12.480
<v Speaker 4>Do you think this is just a general ignorance and

1077
01:05:12.599 --> 01:05:18.840
<v Speaker 4>naivety about the law itself, which leads to a guy

1078
01:05:18.880 --> 01:05:21.679
<v Speaker 4>like Johnny Depp, who probably wasn't outsider once upon a time,

1079
01:05:21.920 --> 01:05:25.000
<v Speaker 4>he did have aspirations of being a musician, thinking geez,

1080
01:05:25.360 --> 01:05:28.360
<v Speaker 4>I can relate, maybe not thinking about it too much,

1081
01:05:28.440 --> 01:05:31.360
<v Speaker 4>but saying I can relate to being an outsider and

1082
01:05:31.760 --> 01:05:34.400
<v Speaker 4>just believing what he wanted to believe, taking pieces out

1083
01:05:34.440 --> 01:05:38.719
<v Speaker 4>of it that supported his idea of his own experiences.

1084
01:05:39.840 --> 01:05:44.599
<v Speaker 4>Do you think it's more about that otherwise respectable people.

1085
01:05:45.360 --> 01:05:47.239
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, I'll give you two answers because I'll break it

1086
01:05:47.280 --> 01:05:51.480
<v Speaker 5>into what I think about people's perceptions and then Johnny Depp.

1087
01:05:51.480 --> 01:05:54.000
<v Speaker 5>But I think at first people's perceptions. I think it's

1088
01:05:54.000 --> 01:05:56.519
<v Speaker 5>the medium is the message. I do think that when

1089
01:05:56.519 --> 01:06:00.519
<v Speaker 5>people watch film, they're not getting the full time line event.

1090
01:06:00.599 --> 01:06:03.800
<v Speaker 5>They're seeing visual things and they're very manipulative. A lot

1091
01:06:03.840 --> 01:06:07.719
<v Speaker 5>of these documentaries do not properly document the case. They're

1092
01:06:07.840 --> 01:06:11.400
<v Speaker 5>very specific and biased. And you know, I think that

1093
01:06:11.880 --> 01:06:14.079
<v Speaker 5>the interest of HBO in this case was to make money.

1094
01:06:14.119 --> 01:06:16.519
<v Speaker 5>That's why they did, you know, made a franchise out

1095
01:06:16.559 --> 01:06:18.199
<v Speaker 5>of it. The second and third and they had to

1096
01:06:18.239 --> 01:06:21.880
<v Speaker 5>have a theme and in each additional film that would

1097
01:06:22.039 --> 01:06:23.920
<v Speaker 5>throw people in. So what do they do. They blame

1098
01:06:23.960 --> 01:06:25.639
<v Speaker 5>somebody else, They blame it on biers, they blame it

1099
01:06:25.679 --> 01:06:29.960
<v Speaker 5>on offs. It gets people to creates friction and creates controversy.

1100
01:06:30.039 --> 01:06:32.800
<v Speaker 5>So I think that, you know, that's really I think

1101
01:06:32.840 --> 01:06:36.760
<v Speaker 5>that the whole those videos and those paradise flows are

1102
01:06:36.800 --> 01:06:38.960
<v Speaker 5>really were the core reason why they got out. I

1103
01:06:39.000 --> 01:06:41.800
<v Speaker 5>really do. I think that propaganda was it. So I

1104
01:06:41.840 --> 01:06:43.840
<v Speaker 5>do think that, like you said, a book is a

1105
01:06:43.840 --> 01:06:48.239
<v Speaker 5>more measured means of relating information. I think that people

1106
01:06:48.400 --> 01:06:51.920
<v Speaker 5>generally won't go through any case and read those documents.

1107
01:06:51.960 --> 01:06:54.719
<v Speaker 5>I think that that's where that's why so many people

1108
01:06:54.760 --> 01:06:58.119
<v Speaker 5>have ignorant conclusions regarding the West Memphis three case. As

1109
01:06:58.159 --> 01:07:00.400
<v Speaker 5>far as Johnny Depp is concerned, I've done some research

1110
01:07:00.440 --> 01:07:03.320
<v Speaker 5>on Johnny Depp recently, and I think he's a fellow

1111
01:07:03.320 --> 01:07:06.119
<v Speaker 5>traveler just like Eccheles. I think they're both into magic.

1112
01:07:06.639 --> 01:07:10.880
<v Speaker 5>I believe that they're into the occult. And I think

1113
01:07:10.920 --> 01:07:15.679
<v Speaker 5>that Depp has shown in his films and in what

1114
01:07:15.760 --> 01:07:17.920
<v Speaker 5>he said in his personal life that that's what he's into.

1115
01:07:18.199 --> 01:07:21.079
<v Speaker 5>He's into what Echoes is. That's why you know, Eccles

1116
01:07:21.119 --> 01:07:24.039
<v Speaker 5>himself called Johnny Depp's brother. He believes Johnny Depp is

1117
01:07:24.039 --> 01:07:26.280
<v Speaker 5>like his brother. And you can see these videos of

1118
01:07:26.320 --> 01:07:29.760
<v Speaker 5>Eccles and depth at my YouTube side of Cold Investigations.

1119
01:07:29.760 --> 01:07:34.559
<v Speaker 5>I have all these videos of Eccles actually using deception

1120
01:07:34.760 --> 01:07:37.599
<v Speaker 5>of upon journalists who don't know the facts of the case,

1121
01:07:37.639 --> 01:07:41.000
<v Speaker 5>so they really don't respond. He's been on major shows

1122
01:07:41.039 --> 01:07:44.920
<v Speaker 5>where he's just straightly bald faced line. Particularly the one

1123
01:07:45.000 --> 01:07:49.760
<v Speaker 5>show was a CNN with and the host just asked

1124
01:07:49.800 --> 01:07:53.119
<v Speaker 5>him all these questions and Eckles. Eckles basically said that

1125
01:07:53.360 --> 01:07:56.760
<v Speaker 5>he had never been in a He's never been and

1126
01:07:56.800 --> 01:07:59.000
<v Speaker 5>died in crime for anything, when the book and all

1127
01:07:59.039 --> 01:08:02.480
<v Speaker 5>the evidence shows that he had been in under police

1128
01:08:02.719 --> 01:08:05.719
<v Speaker 5>he had been arrested one year before the murders. You know,

1129
01:08:05.840 --> 01:08:09.800
<v Speaker 5>so there's tons of information about it. But like going

1130
01:08:09.840 --> 01:08:12.440
<v Speaker 5>back to your question, I do think that you know

1131
01:08:12.519 --> 01:08:15.119
<v Speaker 5>what people watch, is it? I think that that the

1132
01:08:15.239 --> 01:08:19.039
<v Speaker 5>videos are can be deception, deception through a mission. You know,

1133
01:08:19.159 --> 01:08:21.800
<v Speaker 5>it's not that they don't include all the information, so

1134
01:08:21.840 --> 01:08:24.000
<v Speaker 5>people think they've got the full gist of the case.

1135
01:08:26.000 --> 01:08:29.920
<v Speaker 4>Now this isn't evidence in it itself, but you provide

1136
01:08:29.960 --> 01:08:33.560
<v Speaker 4>the evidence that there that he had this interest in

1137
01:08:33.560 --> 01:08:38.239
<v Speaker 4>in Satanism and Alistair Crowley and other you know founders

1138
01:08:38.279 --> 01:08:43.159
<v Speaker 4>of this, Anton Lavay. So he really was a serious Satanist.

1139
01:08:43.279 --> 01:08:47.000
<v Speaker 4>And with that you provide the information that that he

1140
01:08:47.079 --> 01:08:51.920
<v Speaker 4>knew of Crowley's talk of sacrifice, and there was very

1141
01:08:51.920 --> 01:08:54.760
<v Speaker 4>good indication that he was dabbling in that area of

1142
01:08:54.880 --> 01:08:59.880
<v Speaker 4>magic and spells and witchcraft and sacrifice. There was all.

1143
01:09:00.000 --> 01:09:02.720
<v Speaker 4>I wouldn't that he talked about human sacrifice as well.

1144
01:09:03.560 --> 01:09:06.399
<v Speaker 5>Absolutely, I wouldn't. I wouldn't call it dabbling. I still

1145
01:09:06.399 --> 01:09:10.840
<v Speaker 5>think that he's a very very serious occultist and magician.

1146
01:09:11.399 --> 01:09:13.319
<v Speaker 5>And when I read the book, like I had already

1147
01:09:13.359 --> 01:09:17.199
<v Speaker 5>read Croley and then I wrote wrote read Damien Eckles's

1148
01:09:17.239 --> 01:09:20.720
<v Speaker 5>Life after Death when he talks about the HGA Ritual,

1149
01:09:20.760 --> 01:09:24.000
<v Speaker 5>the Holy Guardian Angel Ritual, something specific to Alistair Crowley.

1150
01:09:24.399 --> 01:09:26.720
<v Speaker 5>When Alister Curley meant, I fell out of my chair.

1151
01:09:27.239 --> 01:09:30.279
<v Speaker 5>I literally was in shock that he knew the HGA ritual,

1152
01:09:30.359 --> 01:09:35.720
<v Speaker 5>which is Crowley's attempt to communicate with things. That's really

1153
01:09:35.720 --> 01:09:38.279
<v Speaker 5>what it is. So you know, he talks about going

1154
01:09:38.319 --> 01:09:41.600
<v Speaker 5>through the HGA prayer ritual three times today in his book.

1155
01:09:41.640 --> 01:09:44.680
<v Speaker 5>It's it's really remarkable and it indicates to me that

1156
01:09:46.720 --> 01:09:50.239
<v Speaker 5>Echles is not a dabbler. He right now he has

1157
01:09:50.439 --> 01:09:53.760
<v Speaker 5>he's kind of propselytizing magic. He wants to create a

1158
01:09:53.800 --> 01:09:56.640
<v Speaker 5>magical revolution, and he always says, I want to make

1159
01:09:56.640 --> 01:09:59.640
<v Speaker 5>the world a more magical place. Give magic, you know,

1160
01:09:59.720 --> 01:10:02.000
<v Speaker 5>to be people that will appreciate and change their lives.

1161
01:10:02.000 --> 01:10:04.439
<v Speaker 5>So I think that he is a true believer. In

1162
01:10:04.479 --> 01:10:06.920
<v Speaker 5>his Twitter feeds and his social media indicates that.

1163
01:10:09.800 --> 01:10:13.920
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, it's interesting that that would come up in the trial,

1164
01:10:14.000 --> 01:10:16.159
<v Speaker 4>that he would be blamed for that he would downplay

1165
01:10:16.880 --> 01:10:19.760
<v Speaker 4>and say that was a white witchcraft and he really

1166
01:10:19.760 --> 01:10:22.520
<v Speaker 4>did it was. It's incredible when you see Jason Baldwin

1167
01:10:23.359 --> 01:10:28.399
<v Speaker 4>and Jesse Muskelly, but very much Jason Baldwin and Damian Eccles,

1168
01:10:28.479 --> 01:10:31.960
<v Speaker 4>how young these They look like kids, and they did

1169
01:10:32.039 --> 01:10:34.960
<v Speaker 4>act like kids as well. They look very very innocent,

1170
01:10:34.960 --> 01:10:40.680
<v Speaker 4>and again that's movie making as well. But you it's

1171
01:10:40.800 --> 01:10:45.479
<v Speaker 4>it's interesting that someone would continue with this magic. Again, again,

1172
01:10:45.479 --> 01:10:48.039
<v Speaker 4>if it was white magic, you think that when he

1173
01:10:48.199 --> 01:10:52.560
<v Speaker 4>was released, he would pretend he was white magic, go

1174
01:10:52.760 --> 01:10:59.000
<v Speaker 4>that route. Instead, he's at least or more so exploring

1175
01:10:59.119 --> 01:11:03.760
<v Speaker 4>the darker element and the Crowley elements of Satanism, isn't

1176
01:11:03.760 --> 01:11:05.279
<v Speaker 4>he to this day o.

1177
01:11:05.520 --> 01:11:08.159
<v Speaker 5>Question, I think that you hit the nail right on

1178
01:11:08.199 --> 01:11:10.920
<v Speaker 5>the head of that statement, because I remarked the same thing.

1179
01:11:11.000 --> 01:11:12.880
<v Speaker 5>I would think that once he got out of jail,

1180
01:11:13.319 --> 01:11:16.800
<v Speaker 5>he would go back to his pseudo Buddhism, that he's

1181
01:11:16.840 --> 01:11:19.960
<v Speaker 5>interested in, the Shinto kind of Buddhism. But instead he

1182
01:11:20.000 --> 01:11:22.760
<v Speaker 5>goes right back into this magical He's still promoting it,

1183
01:11:23.039 --> 01:11:28.319
<v Speaker 5>he's practicing it. He's creating sigils and pictures in his

1184
01:11:28.520 --> 01:11:32.439
<v Speaker 5>art that are full of symbology. He actually made some

1185
01:11:32.680 --> 01:11:37.319
<v Speaker 5>drawing that was made of his blood and spit, blood,

1186
01:11:37.319 --> 01:11:40.199
<v Speaker 5>blood and saliva, you know, real kind of bodily fluid

1187
01:11:40.319 --> 01:11:43.079
<v Speaker 5>magical stuff. And then I saw him with this character

1188
01:11:43.119 --> 01:11:46.359
<v Speaker 5>by the name of Genesis p Orige, who really started

1189
01:11:46.399 --> 01:11:50.079
<v Speaker 5>his own kind of Crowley cult that was supposed to

1190
01:11:50.119 --> 01:11:53.640
<v Speaker 5>be the you know, was supposed to follow on after

1191
01:11:53.640 --> 01:11:56.600
<v Speaker 5>the work of Croley called the Croley's OTL, but his

1192
01:11:56.800 --> 01:12:02.520
<v Speaker 5>is called Topi. The it's about psychic youth, basically temple

1193
01:12:02.560 --> 01:12:06.560
<v Speaker 5>of psychic Youth that kind of carried on Crowley's Crowley's

1194
01:12:06.680 --> 01:12:09.199
<v Speaker 5>Torch for example. And Eckles is hanging out with him.

1195
01:12:09.199 --> 01:12:11.279
<v Speaker 5>He's in a movie with him called I R O.

1196
01:12:11.399 --> 01:12:13.279
<v Speaker 5>If you want to see something very creepy, you can

1197
01:12:13.359 --> 01:12:16.840
<v Speaker 5>go to my YouTube side of a Cold Cold Investigations

1198
01:12:16.880 --> 01:12:19.520
<v Speaker 5>and see them together talking about how New York is

1199
01:12:19.560 --> 01:12:22.960
<v Speaker 5>a dangerous place and people could get killed. So it's

1200
01:12:23.039 --> 01:12:23.720
<v Speaker 5>really creepy.

1201
01:12:26.920 --> 01:12:32.439
<v Speaker 4>What it was interesting, uh, is when Damian eccles takes

1202
01:12:32.479 --> 01:12:39.680
<v Speaker 4>the stand and you document what exactly did he what

1203
01:12:39.720 --> 01:12:42.000
<v Speaker 4>did he bring to that at that trial with his

1204
01:12:44.000 --> 01:12:47.159
<v Speaker 4>testimony on on on the stand. It's unusual to have

1205
01:12:47.199 --> 01:12:49.199
<v Speaker 4>a killer take the stand, so they must have thought

1206
01:12:49.199 --> 01:12:52.319
<v Speaker 4>that there was nothing else to lose by having him

1207
01:12:52.319 --> 01:12:55.119
<v Speaker 4>on there. So how did he conduct himself? What did

1208
01:12:55.840 --> 01:12:58.319
<v Speaker 4>what did the world learn from seeing him up on

1209
01:12:58.359 --> 01:12:58.840
<v Speaker 4>that stand?

1210
01:13:00.119 --> 01:13:02.439
<v Speaker 5>I think they saw him kind of dissemble, you know.

1211
01:13:02.479 --> 01:13:05.520
<v Speaker 5>They asked him questions about Crowley, They asked him about

1212
01:13:05.560 --> 01:13:09.239
<v Speaker 5>the pentagram on his chest. They asked him about the

1213
01:13:09.279 --> 01:13:11.680
<v Speaker 5>knives that he used to have. Now all the knives disappeared.

1214
01:13:12.039 --> 01:13:16.079
<v Speaker 5>One was found in the lake behind the trailer park

1215
01:13:16.119 --> 01:13:20.359
<v Speaker 5>where they live, where Jason Baldwin lived. But he really, uh,

1216
01:13:21.159 --> 01:13:24.319
<v Speaker 5>you know, he really tried to kind of dissemble the

1217
01:13:24.399 --> 01:13:27.159
<v Speaker 5>at least that's the way I interpreted about a lot

1218
01:13:27.199 --> 01:13:31.800
<v Speaker 5>of his his interests. You know, Davis, the prosecutor says,

1219
01:13:31.840 --> 01:13:35.199
<v Speaker 5>you know, you know, he asked him about his earlier

1220
01:13:35.279 --> 01:13:37.960
<v Speaker 5>statements that he had made right there on May seventh.

1221
01:13:38.000 --> 01:13:39.840
<v Speaker 5>He asked him about who would feel good about killing

1222
01:13:39.840 --> 01:13:42.760
<v Speaker 5>eight year olds? Is that part of your common sense philosophy?

1223
01:13:43.239 --> 01:13:45.119
<v Speaker 5>And then Echo says, I figured they must have if

1224
01:13:45.119 --> 01:13:48.119
<v Speaker 5>they did it, So it kind of showed that he

1225
01:13:48.479 --> 01:13:53.119
<v Speaker 5>was really cavalier about you know, a lot of the

1226
01:13:53.720 --> 01:13:56.600
<v Speaker 5>three eight year olds deaths, and you know, it showed

1227
01:13:56.640 --> 01:14:00.720
<v Speaker 5>that he he had the out look if some of

1228
01:14:00.760 --> 01:14:01.479
<v Speaker 5>you as a killer.

1229
01:14:01.600 --> 01:14:09.199
<v Speaker 4>At least in my opinion, What is it about Jesse

1230
01:14:09.359 --> 01:14:14.960
<v Speaker 4>mus Kelly in these supporters' minds besides the IQ, what

1231
01:14:15.039 --> 01:14:19.359
<v Speaker 4>was it that made it conclusive in their minds that

1232
01:14:19.439 --> 01:14:22.880
<v Speaker 4>there's just no way that Damian Eckles and Jason Baldwin

1233
01:14:22.920 --> 01:14:27.800
<v Speaker 4>and Jesse ms Kelly despite the confessions, because I'm sure

1234
01:14:27.840 --> 01:14:31.439
<v Speaker 4>they know that there are these confessions, they know of

1235
01:14:31.600 --> 01:14:33.800
<v Speaker 4>the trial and the jury's conclusions.

1236
01:14:34.600 --> 01:14:39.079
<v Speaker 5>Well, not everybody knows that they nobody, not everybody knows

1237
01:14:39.119 --> 01:14:43.399
<v Speaker 5>about the post conviction confessions. The pr team and Echols

1238
01:14:43.439 --> 01:14:46.199
<v Speaker 5>himself has done a good job of focusing on the

1239
01:14:46.239 --> 01:14:49.119
<v Speaker 5>one confession. So a lot of people don't know the

1240
01:14:49.119 --> 01:14:52.039
<v Speaker 5>total fact of the case. So I think that that's

1241
01:14:52.079 --> 01:14:54.800
<v Speaker 5>why miss Kelly can be thrown out. He was seen

1242
01:14:54.880 --> 01:15:00.399
<v Speaker 5>as incompetent and unintelligent, and that the fourteen post so

1243
01:15:00.439 --> 01:15:04.279
<v Speaker 5>called fourteen hour confession was bogus. And so when they

1244
01:15:04.600 --> 01:15:08.720
<v Speaker 5>believe those facts that really for these these statements that

1245
01:15:08.800 --> 01:15:12.239
<v Speaker 5>really aren't true, that's why they can throw Miskelly out

1246
01:15:12.319 --> 01:15:15.079
<v Speaker 5>and his initial first confession. You'd be surprised how many

1247
01:15:15.079 --> 01:15:17.880
<v Speaker 5>conversations I have with people who are West Memphis three supporters,

1248
01:15:17.880 --> 01:15:20.920
<v Speaker 5>and I've had many, many, many many conversations with them.

1249
01:15:21.159 --> 01:15:23.880
<v Speaker 5>How many only they know that there was one confession,

1250
01:15:23.960 --> 01:15:27.600
<v Speaker 5>that there was no post conviction confessions.

1251
01:15:28.720 --> 01:15:31.840
<v Speaker 4>What is their rationale for having first buyers and then

1252
01:15:32.000 --> 01:15:36.359
<v Speaker 4>now hobbs in their and their.

1253
01:15:38.319 --> 01:15:41.359
<v Speaker 5>I think in their eyesights, I think it points away

1254
01:15:41.399 --> 01:15:43.960
<v Speaker 5>from them and they actually can win the PR battle.

1255
01:15:44.760 --> 01:15:47.479
<v Speaker 5>They can win the PR public PR battle. And that

1256
01:15:47.640 --> 01:15:50.800
<v Speaker 5>was really kind of the unusual element of this case

1257
01:15:50.920 --> 01:15:54.479
<v Speaker 5>is that they really the West Memphis three three one

1258
01:15:55.279 --> 01:15:57.720
<v Speaker 5>the public battle. Most people believe that they were innocent

1259
01:15:57.760 --> 01:15:59.600
<v Speaker 5>for one reason. Und that's how they raised ten or

1260
01:15:59.640 --> 01:16:03.319
<v Speaker 5>twenty mo dollars So if you can tell the public

1261
01:16:03.359 --> 01:16:06.279
<v Speaker 5>that it was the suspicious stepfather, whether it's the stepfather

1262
01:16:06.359 --> 01:16:11.079
<v Speaker 5>Buyers or the stepfather Hobbs, you win the pr battle,

1263
01:16:11.119 --> 01:16:14.079
<v Speaker 5>not in court, but that pr battle can be leveraged

1264
01:16:14.359 --> 01:16:17.439
<v Speaker 5>with money to win in court. And that's why I

1265
01:16:17.479 --> 01:16:18.840
<v Speaker 5>think that that was their approach.

1266
01:16:20.479 --> 01:16:24.079
<v Speaker 4>Now, the dispute the satanic motive, So what would be

1267
01:16:24.119 --> 01:16:30.079
<v Speaker 4>the motive for either one of those stepfathers to do it.

1268
01:16:28.920 --> 01:16:33.720
<v Speaker 5>They've had a whole series of different things. One is

1269
01:16:34.039 --> 01:16:37.960
<v Speaker 5>rage killing. One is the most recent, which is laughable,

1270
01:16:38.159 --> 01:16:41.239
<v Speaker 5>is that Hobbs, one of his friends, and two other

1271
01:16:41.319 --> 01:16:44.359
<v Speaker 5>kids were engaged. They get this. They were engaged in

1272
01:16:44.399 --> 01:16:47.840
<v Speaker 5>some homosexual party in the woods and the three kids

1273
01:16:47.880 --> 01:16:50.239
<v Speaker 5>came upon them and then the all three of them

1274
01:16:50.319 --> 01:16:55.119
<v Speaker 5>killed the three kids. That's what the supporters have actually

1275
01:16:55.159 --> 01:17:00.760
<v Speaker 5>posited as what happened. So you know, that's that's kind

1276
01:17:00.760 --> 01:17:04.159
<v Speaker 5>of that's the that's their kind of, uh flame rationale

1277
01:17:04.199 --> 01:17:07.199
<v Speaker 5>really for the killings. That doesn't hold any water. And

1278
01:17:07.239 --> 01:17:10.640
<v Speaker 5>the other reality about Hobbes is that he was seen

1279
01:17:10.760 --> 01:17:14.159
<v Speaker 5>the whole night of the disappearance. He was walking around,

1280
01:17:14.199 --> 01:17:16.319
<v Speaker 5>he was with his wife, he was with us, He

1281
01:17:16.359 --> 01:17:19.439
<v Speaker 5>had seen Buyers, he was walking around in the woods.

1282
01:17:19.439 --> 01:17:22.640
<v Speaker 5>Nobody saw him wet. You had to be in that

1283
01:17:22.760 --> 01:17:25.880
<v Speaker 5>ditch with the the victims. You had to have gotten

1284
01:17:25.920 --> 01:17:28.399
<v Speaker 5>wet to cover up the current crime. And who was

1285
01:17:28.439 --> 01:17:31.479
<v Speaker 5>seen wet and money? Damien Eckles was seen wet in

1286
01:17:31.560 --> 01:17:36.199
<v Speaker 5>money by the truck wash that was over by the

1287
01:17:36.199 --> 01:17:39.279
<v Speaker 5>freeway about one hundred yards away from the mercy. He

1288
01:17:39.359 --> 01:17:42.359
<v Speaker 5>was seen by the whole Hollingsworth family. And people like

1289
01:17:42.439 --> 01:17:44.880
<v Speaker 5>to discount that, But why would a whole family with

1290
01:17:45.239 --> 01:17:49.560
<v Speaker 5>a wife and kids and husbands lie about seeing Eccles

1291
01:17:49.880 --> 01:17:53.359
<v Speaker 5>and possibly either Jason Baldwin or Eccles's girlfriend at the time,

1292
01:17:53.359 --> 01:17:55.039
<v Speaker 5>who was named Dominique Cheer.

1293
01:17:56.840 --> 01:18:01.920
<v Speaker 4>The the the fact of that Damien Eckles mentions that

1294
01:18:03.640 --> 01:18:08.439
<v Speaker 4>urine in the boy's mouths and that the pathologist finds

1295
01:18:08.520 --> 01:18:11.119
<v Speaker 4>evidence of urine in their stomachs later. Is that brought

1296
01:18:11.159 --> 01:18:13.800
<v Speaker 4>up at trial? Is that important or is that just

1297
01:18:13.880 --> 01:18:15.359
<v Speaker 4>important in your in your mind?

1298
01:18:15.800 --> 01:18:18.119
<v Speaker 5>It's important for me in my mind. It was not

1299
01:18:18.399 --> 01:18:21.720
<v Speaker 5>to my knowledge brought up at trial, but I thought

1300
01:18:21.760 --> 01:18:24.640
<v Speaker 5>that the it was. It was something that I learned

1301
01:18:24.680 --> 01:18:27.119
<v Speaker 5>from There's been a lot of writers about the West Memphis. Three.

1302
01:18:27.199 --> 01:18:30.359
<v Speaker 5>One was Blink on Crime, another's Trench Reynolds. But it

1303
01:18:30.399 --> 01:18:33.359
<v Speaker 5>was something I learned from Blink on Crime, and I

1304
01:18:33.399 --> 01:18:35.479
<v Speaker 5>think that doubt was the truth. She had looked through

1305
01:18:35.920 --> 01:18:40.720
<v Speaker 5>all of the court records as well, and I used,

1306
01:18:40.800 --> 01:18:44.000
<v Speaker 5>you know, some of her analyzes in my book, and

1307
01:18:44.039 --> 01:18:46.520
<v Speaker 5>I quoted her at my on my intro to the

1308
01:18:46.520 --> 01:18:50.000
<v Speaker 5>book as somebody I reference. So there's been a lot

1309
01:18:50.039 --> 01:18:53.000
<v Speaker 5>of other writers who you know, I wasn't alone. I

1310
01:18:53.039 --> 01:18:56.119
<v Speaker 5>wasn't the first one to really write about the case.

1311
01:18:56.159 --> 01:18:58.640
<v Speaker 5>I was the first one to kind of put together

1312
01:18:58.720 --> 01:19:03.600
<v Speaker 5>the occult aspect and elements of the case.

1313
01:19:06.039 --> 01:19:09.680
<v Speaker 4>Now you say you have I know you have supporters,

1314
01:19:09.720 --> 01:19:13.199
<v Speaker 4>and there they have their supporters. Are there any supporters

1315
01:19:13.239 --> 01:19:18.880
<v Speaker 4>that take their you know, dedication to Satan so seriously

1316
01:19:18.960 --> 01:19:21.840
<v Speaker 4>that they are angered at you? Is it is this

1317
01:19:22.000 --> 01:19:23.359
<v Speaker 4>like scientology tell us.

1318
01:19:23.239 --> 01:19:25.439
<v Speaker 5>A little bit about YEA, Well, that's a that's an

1319
01:19:25.479 --> 01:19:28.479
<v Speaker 5>amazing statement by you, because I think that supporters of

1320
01:19:28.520 --> 01:19:34.439
<v Speaker 5>Damien Eckles are basically as fevered and aggressive as scientologists.

1321
01:19:35.079 --> 01:19:37.600
<v Speaker 5>Blint Trench Reynolds has written a lot about Eccles and

1322
01:19:37.720 --> 01:19:42.800
<v Speaker 5>he calls echos followers eccles ologists play on scientologists, and

1323
01:19:42.880 --> 01:19:48.439
<v Speaker 5>he has actually had some very serious ramifications from speaking

1324
01:19:48.479 --> 01:19:51.279
<v Speaker 5>out against Eccles. He's he actually had somebody leave a

1325
01:19:51.319 --> 01:19:54.720
<v Speaker 5>bag full of experiment on his porch. He has been

1326
01:19:54.840 --> 01:19:57.800
<v Speaker 5>harassed online, and I've been harassed online as well. And

1327
01:19:58.880 --> 01:20:01.640
<v Speaker 5>I've actually, if you loo look at my book on Amazon,

1328
01:20:01.720 --> 01:20:06.239
<v Speaker 5>I've just been basically gangstalk by Echo supporters, telling lies

1329
01:20:06.279 --> 01:20:08.439
<v Speaker 5>and just trying to downplay my book and give me

1330
01:20:08.439 --> 01:20:14.479
<v Speaker 5>one star. So there has been some ramplications from from

1331
01:20:14.640 --> 01:20:16.960
<v Speaker 5>complaining against Echoes. And you know, he's a member of

1332
01:20:17.000 --> 01:20:20.039
<v Speaker 5>the OTO, He's an admitted member. One of the strange

1333
01:20:20.039 --> 01:20:22.880
<v Speaker 5>elements of the case was the supporters who kind of

1334
01:20:23.039 --> 01:20:25.079
<v Speaker 5>came up out of the middle of nowhere. There was

1335
01:20:25.119 --> 01:20:27.479
<v Speaker 5>a group of them that came out of la that

1336
01:20:28.000 --> 01:20:31.239
<v Speaker 5>are seen in some of the in some of the

1337
01:20:31.239 --> 01:20:34.800
<v Speaker 5>Paradise Lost trilogy talking with Echoes, and nobody really knows

1338
01:20:35.399 --> 01:20:38.920
<v Speaker 5>why they're supporters. Are they really have a secret hidden agenda?

1339
01:20:38.960 --> 01:20:42.359
<v Speaker 5>And one of the guys from Court TV asks one

1340
01:20:42.399 --> 01:20:45.560
<v Speaker 5>of these kind of fevered supporters, are you a member

1341
01:20:45.600 --> 01:20:47.439
<v Speaker 5>of a cult? You know, he actually came out and

1342
01:20:47.479 --> 01:20:49.000
<v Speaker 5>said are you a member of a cult? Which I

1343
01:20:49.000 --> 01:20:51.600
<v Speaker 5>thought was a very important question. I think the guy

1344
01:20:51.680 --> 01:20:52.079
<v Speaker 5>dodged it.

1345
01:20:56.319 --> 01:21:02.119
<v Speaker 4>Now, the your investigation into Alistair Crowley of course's instrumental

1346
01:21:02.479 --> 01:21:09.840
<v Speaker 4>in this for our audience, and in the book you

1347
01:21:09.920 --> 01:21:12.479
<v Speaker 4>do this as well. But I'd like you to tell

1348
01:21:12.560 --> 01:21:20.000
<v Speaker 4>us specifically why you think that Damien eckles and this

1349
01:21:20.159 --> 01:21:25.159
<v Speaker 4>crime itself demonstrates a again what we know the difference

1350
01:21:25.159 --> 01:21:28.640
<v Speaker 4>between what the FBI would call a ritualistic satanic murder.

1351
01:21:28.920 --> 01:21:32.560
<v Speaker 4>But tell us why you think this is can be

1352
01:21:32.640 --> 01:21:36.960
<v Speaker 4>described as having those satanic elements. Tell us again, in summary,

1353
01:21:37.760 --> 01:21:40.479
<v Speaker 4>all the things that you thought about the three murders

1354
01:21:40.520 --> 01:21:45.760
<v Speaker 4>of these young boys added up to a satanic crime.

1355
01:21:46.520 --> 01:21:49.119
<v Speaker 5>So they were tied, like we talked about earlier, they

1356
01:21:49.119 --> 01:21:52.520
<v Speaker 5>were tied in what was dornus chord magic with different knots,

1357
01:21:53.000 --> 01:21:55.319
<v Speaker 5>and in chord magic, different knots mean different things. So

1358
01:21:55.560 --> 01:21:58.560
<v Speaker 5>and they were tied in an unusual fashion which was

1359
01:21:58.680 --> 01:22:03.079
<v Speaker 5>very ritualistic. Also that there was wax that was found

1360
01:22:03.079 --> 01:22:05.520
<v Speaker 5>there from a candle. It was a very bloody scene

1361
01:22:05.520 --> 01:22:09.399
<v Speaker 5>that took place at a full moon. And also what

1362
01:22:09.479 --> 01:22:11.039
<v Speaker 5>I didn't know when I first wrote the book is

1363
01:22:11.079 --> 01:22:15.520
<v Speaker 5>there's something about drowning, about ritual sacrifice and water. And

1364
01:22:15.640 --> 01:22:18.640
<v Speaker 5>the boys were two of the boys were drowned. Also,

1365
01:22:18.880 --> 01:22:21.640
<v Speaker 5>the fact that one of the genitols was removed is

1366
01:22:21.680 --> 01:22:26.479
<v Speaker 5>consistent from what I've heard from a really intense ritual

1367
01:22:26.560 --> 01:22:30.680
<v Speaker 5>that takes place at the highest level of Satanism, involving blood.

1368
01:22:31.359 --> 01:22:34.159
<v Speaker 5>And you know, one of the boys, when his generaliss

1369
01:22:34.159 --> 01:22:36.239
<v Speaker 5>were removed, he lost all his blood, and that blood

1370
01:22:36.279 --> 01:22:38.439
<v Speaker 5>was there. You can see it in the court documents

1371
01:22:38.560 --> 01:22:40.600
<v Speaker 5>that the blood is all over the side of the

1372
01:22:40.640 --> 01:22:43.640
<v Speaker 5>bank where this took place. A luminol was evidence of

1373
01:22:43.680 --> 01:22:48.560
<v Speaker 5>all this blood. So I do think, you know, there

1374
01:22:48.560 --> 01:22:51.640
<v Speaker 5>could have been other people at that site when those

1375
01:22:51.680 --> 01:22:54.399
<v Speaker 5>boys were killed, which is a scary thought. But one

1376
01:22:54.399 --> 01:22:57.880
<v Speaker 5>of the other investigators, Jerry Driver, one of the early

1377
01:22:57.960 --> 01:23:00.960
<v Speaker 5>people who knew Echals, thought that there were other people there.

1378
01:23:01.000 --> 01:23:03.319
<v Speaker 5>At the night of the killing. There was a man

1379
01:23:03.359 --> 01:23:05.800
<v Speaker 5>who went to a low like literally right across the

1380
01:23:05.840 --> 01:23:09.720
<v Speaker 5>way from the killing to a bo Jangles restaurant, and

1381
01:23:09.760 --> 01:23:12.600
<v Speaker 5>he was covered in mud and blood. He sat in

1382
01:23:12.640 --> 01:23:16.720
<v Speaker 5>the bathroom there for the whole night. So there's indications

1383
01:23:16.760 --> 01:23:20.880
<v Speaker 5>that ritual, definite ritual elements are involved in this case.

1384
01:23:20.880 --> 01:23:23.880
<v Speaker 5>And Accos himself said that, you know, he liked he

1385
01:23:23.920 --> 01:23:26.479
<v Speaker 5>wants the complete book of witchcraft and I show him

1386
01:23:26.479 --> 01:23:28.720
<v Speaker 5>the book that his mother had driven him around the

1387
01:23:28.760 --> 01:23:33.520
<v Speaker 5>bookstores to help find him books and U. So I

1388
01:23:33.600 --> 01:23:37.039
<v Speaker 5>do think that there was there was a ritually involved murder.

1389
01:23:37.079 --> 01:23:38.000
<v Speaker 5>I do think that.

1390
01:23:39.640 --> 01:23:42.720
<v Speaker 4>It's interesting to you to talk they talk about. I

1391
01:23:42.760 --> 01:23:46.399
<v Speaker 4>think Jason Baldwin said he got alcohol from Damien's mother.

1392
01:23:46.439 --> 01:23:51.359
<v Speaker 4>I believe went and got him some whiskey and uh

1393
01:23:51.880 --> 01:23:55.960
<v Speaker 4>oh yeah. There was also talk about his girlfriend who

1394
01:23:56.039 --> 01:23:59.520
<v Speaker 4>changed her name to Domini for again for these kinds

1395
01:23:59.520 --> 01:24:04.920
<v Speaker 4>of reasons, and their family and its connection to at

1396
01:24:04.960 --> 01:24:07.439
<v Speaker 4>least they're dabbling in vamporism.

1397
01:24:07.800 --> 01:24:10.439
<v Speaker 5>Right, they're dabbling in blood drinking, just like echos Is.

1398
01:24:10.960 --> 01:24:14.880
<v Speaker 5>They write about vamporism and for a magazine. And you know,

1399
01:24:14.960 --> 01:24:18.239
<v Speaker 5>she casually said when she was asked that, you know,

1400
01:24:18.600 --> 01:24:21.359
<v Speaker 5>oh yeah, we drink blood. Mom drinks blood. Everybody drinks blood.

1401
01:24:21.399 --> 01:24:24.359
<v Speaker 5>So that was very common. And you know, there's evidence

1402
01:24:24.399 --> 01:24:27.319
<v Speaker 5>and elements within eccles family that his parents are involved

1403
01:24:28.000 --> 01:24:31.479
<v Speaker 5>in different types of witchcraft, you know, and they talked

1404
01:24:31.479 --> 01:24:34.439
<v Speaker 5>about that in West Memphis. In West Memphis, there was

1405
01:24:34.520 --> 01:24:39.479
<v Speaker 5>rumors about that. And strangely, the same year that Eccles

1406
01:24:39.600 --> 01:24:41.800
<v Speaker 5>was arrested, there was a murder that his mother and

1407
01:24:41.880 --> 01:24:46.199
<v Speaker 5>sister were involved in during a bonfire on the shore

1408
01:24:46.239 --> 01:24:49.279
<v Speaker 5>of the Mississippi River right there on the kind of

1409
01:24:49.279 --> 01:24:54.159
<v Speaker 5>eastern part of West Memphis. And so there's some very sketchy,

1410
01:24:54.319 --> 01:24:56.399
<v Speaker 5>very suspicious stuff. There was the death of somebody who's

1411
01:24:56.439 --> 01:25:05.199
<v Speaker 5>actually living with Eccles's mom.

1412
01:25:02.119 --> 01:25:08.520
<v Speaker 4>Interesting and also the community itself. An expert had come

1413
01:25:08.520 --> 01:25:11.560
<v Speaker 4>in in ninety two and said that there was you know,

1414
01:25:11.880 --> 01:25:16.920
<v Speaker 4>incredible satanic activity and that sort of a warning of

1415
01:25:16.960 --> 01:25:18.720
<v Speaker 4>this unusual activity in the area.

1416
01:25:19.760 --> 01:25:21.920
<v Speaker 5>Absolutely, I mean I think that there was all kinds

1417
01:25:21.960 --> 01:25:24.119
<v Speaker 5>of people coming in and talking. The police had taken

1418
01:25:24.159 --> 01:25:26.840
<v Speaker 5>a ton of, you know, statements from other people. They

1419
01:25:26.880 --> 01:25:30.319
<v Speaker 5>talked about, like I talked earlier, these rituals at Stonehenge,

1420
01:25:30.319 --> 01:25:32.680
<v Speaker 5>and that there were other people involved in that. There

1421
01:25:32.760 --> 01:25:34.920
<v Speaker 5>was somebody who they never found who was supposedly the

1422
01:25:34.960 --> 01:25:38.359
<v Speaker 5>head of the whole colts, and you know, they talked

1423
01:25:38.359 --> 01:25:41.600
<v Speaker 5>about you know, rapes that had taken place at Stonehenge.

1424
01:25:41.640 --> 01:25:45.399
<v Speaker 5>There was all types of dog carcasses, and nobody could

1425
01:25:45.399 --> 01:25:47.840
<v Speaker 5>really explain it. There just was a sense of fear.

1426
01:25:48.279 --> 01:25:51.199
<v Speaker 5>And what happens after these three guys are arrested. There's

1427
01:25:51.199 --> 01:25:53.600
<v Speaker 5>no more killings, no more child killings that ever happened

1428
01:25:53.600 --> 01:25:54.920
<v Speaker 5>in West Memphis.

1429
01:25:56.039 --> 01:26:00.359
<v Speaker 4>Yeah. Interesting, this is an incredible book upon it Nation.

1430
01:26:00.640 --> 01:26:02.600
<v Speaker 4>I could talk to you for another hour and a half,

1431
01:26:02.680 --> 01:26:04.039
<v Speaker 4>but I'm going to have to let you go. But

1432
01:26:04.439 --> 01:26:08.039
<v Speaker 4>I wanted to let people know the work that you've

1433
01:26:08.079 --> 01:26:10.479
<v Speaker 4>done before. So tell us a little of the titles

1434
01:26:10.520 --> 01:26:13.359
<v Speaker 4>of the books that you have before, and also give

1435
01:26:13.439 --> 01:26:15.439
<v Speaker 4>us all the information where people might be able to

1436
01:26:15.479 --> 01:26:18.079
<v Speaker 4>contact you and find out about your other work, and

1437
01:26:18.159 --> 01:26:21.239
<v Speaker 4>tell us about the ed Opferman Report that you're involved

1438
01:26:21.279 --> 01:26:23.159
<v Speaker 4>with as well. So give us a little bit of

1439
01:26:23.199 --> 01:26:26.840
<v Speaker 4>a plugs for yourself and also just where people might

1440
01:26:26.880 --> 01:26:28.880
<v Speaker 4>find out about your work and how they might be

1441
01:26:28.920 --> 01:26:30.760
<v Speaker 4>able to contact you for further interested.

1442
01:26:30.880 --> 01:26:34.239
<v Speaker 5>Say thanks, Dan. I wrote Profit of Evil, which is

1443
01:26:34.279 --> 01:26:36.239
<v Speaker 5>about Alister Croley. That was my first book, and then

1444
01:26:36.279 --> 01:26:39.279
<v Speaker 5>I wrote Abomination, and I just finished a new book

1445
01:26:39.359 --> 01:26:42.439
<v Speaker 5>called Children of the Beasts, which is about Crowley's followers,

1446
01:26:42.439 --> 01:26:44.920
<v Speaker 5>and that should be available the next week or two.

1447
01:26:45.039 --> 01:26:46.720
<v Speaker 5>You can find me on Facebook. I have a ton

1448
01:26:46.760 --> 01:26:50.920
<v Speaker 5>of information about echos on Facebook and at a cult

1449
01:26:50.920 --> 01:26:54.520
<v Speaker 5>investigation that YouTube, and I also have a website which

1450
01:26:54.560 --> 01:26:56.960
<v Speaker 5>is a cult investigation dot com. You can buy books

1451
01:26:57.000 --> 01:26:59.680
<v Speaker 5>there and you can reach me on any social media Twitter,

1452
01:26:59.720 --> 01:27:02.800
<v Speaker 5>an like that. And I'm also involved as a producer

1453
01:27:03.199 --> 01:27:06.319
<v Speaker 5>with the Ed Auperman Report, and he has some excellent

1454
01:27:06.720 --> 01:27:10.199
<v Speaker 5>interviews with people involved in the West Memphis three case, people,

1455
01:27:10.319 --> 01:27:13.520
<v Speaker 5>local people. One has had something like two hundred, two

1456
01:27:13.600 --> 01:27:16.880
<v Speaker 5>hundred and fifty thousand listens. It's pretty amazing. So if

1457
01:27:16.880 --> 01:27:20.479
<v Speaker 5>you are wanting to get some more information about the

1458
01:27:20.520 --> 01:27:23.159
<v Speaker 5>West Memphis three from a great source, check out the

1459
01:27:23.319 --> 01:27:24.239
<v Speaker 5>Ed Auperman Report.

1460
01:27:26.000 --> 01:27:28.880
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, it's a great show. I was just interviewed by

1461
01:27:29.079 --> 01:27:31.119
<v Speaker 4>Ed last week and I had a great time as

1462
01:27:31.159 --> 01:27:33.960
<v Speaker 4>a great interviewer and has a really fine program. I've

1463
01:27:34.239 --> 01:27:37.479
<v Speaker 4>went through the archives and discovered your program about this

1464
01:27:37.560 --> 01:27:40.159
<v Speaker 4>book of bonomation and the West Memphis three and just

1465
01:27:40.600 --> 01:27:43.039
<v Speaker 4>a fascinating case and a fascinating book. And I want

1466
01:27:43.039 --> 01:27:45.479
<v Speaker 4>to thank you very much William for coming on and

1467
01:27:45.520 --> 01:27:47.079
<v Speaker 4>sharing it with us this evening.

1468
01:27:47.159 --> 01:27:49.239
<v Speaker 5>Thank you very much, Dan, thank you so much, Thank

1469
01:27:49.279 --> 01:27:51.439
<v Speaker 5>you so much for having you all. My went fast,

1470
01:27:51.439 --> 01:27:52.319
<v Speaker 5>Thanks again.

1471
01:27:53.079 --> 01:27:53.960
<v Speaker 4>Thank you, good night.

1472
01:27:54.560 --> 01:27:55.520
<v Speaker 5>All right, take care tonight.

1473
01:28:03.279 --> 01:28:07.920
<v Speaker 3>Us to