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Speaker 6: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 6: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 6: written about them Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every
Speaker 6: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 6: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 6: journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 4: Good evening with shocking insights into one of the most
Speaker 4: talked about murder cases in American history. Abomination, Devil Worship
Speaker 4: and Deception in the West Memphis Three Murders reveals the
Speaker 4: truth about the death of three children in West Memphis, Arkansas,
Speaker 4: in nineteen ninety three. My analyzing original police transcripts and
Speaker 4: court documents William Ramsey conclusively proves that witchcraft and the
Speaker 4: occult were involved in the heinous murders and that a
Speaker 4: continuing wall of deception has prevented the public from realizing
Speaker 4: the awful truth about the West Memphis three child killings.
Speaker 4: The book that we're featuring this sevening is Abomination, Devil
Speaker 4: Worship and Deception in the West Memphis Three Murders with
Speaker 4: my special guest journalist and author and historian William Ramsey.
Speaker 4: Welcome to the program, William Ramsey, Dan.
Speaker 5: Thank you very much for having me on your show.
Speaker 5: It's great to be here.
Speaker 4: Thank you very much. This is one of the more
Speaker 4: intriguing cases among all the intriguing cases that I this
Speaker 4: program features. So let's get right to this. Why were
Speaker 4: you compelled to about this book about this case? Parton
Speaker 4: me was what was it about this case that interested
Speaker 4: you so much and why?
Speaker 5: Well, I was researching some information about Alistair Crowley. My
Speaker 5: first book was called Profit of Evil. It was basically
Speaker 5: a biography about Alistair Crowley. And as I was researching
Speaker 5: my second book, I came across a clip on YouTube
Speaker 5: of the West Memphis three case and it was about
Speaker 5: Alistair Crowley. And I had seen this documentary Paradise Lost
Speaker 5: about nineteen ninety six, but I hadn't really keyed into
Speaker 5: that factor of the case. So when I saw that
Speaker 5: Alistair Crowley was involved in the case and I had
Speaker 5: an interest in him, I immediately kind of was curious
Speaker 5: about why that was the case, and it kind of
Speaker 5: led me to really research the West Memphis three case.
Speaker 5: Had Like I had said, I'd seen the documentary, but
Speaker 5: I really hadn't got into the details of the case,
Speaker 5: and there was they had been released. The West Memphis
Speaker 5: Three were released from prison in two thousand eve and
Speaker 5: I was really just trying to figure out what happened.
Speaker 5: So it led me to find all the case filels
Speaker 5: which are available online at Callahans dot org. You can
Speaker 5: find it there. So I really researched the case. In
Speaker 5: my conclusions were a lot different than what the public
Speaker 5: was saying about the West Memphis Three.
Speaker 4: So this murder happened in nineteen ninety three, So tell
Speaker 4: us in what year you began this investigation that you
Speaker 4: became compelled to do this investigation, and at what point
Speaker 4: in this entire case. Where were they in this case
Speaker 4: at that time?
Speaker 5: Well, they were released. I started really researching the West
Speaker 5: Memphis Three in twenty twelve. I was relatively late compared
Speaker 5: to a lot of other authors and researchers, but the
Speaker 5: West Memphis Three were released on in August of twenty eleven.
Speaker 5: They pled an Alfred ple, which is based upon the
Speaker 5: Supreme Court case North Carolina Verse is Alfred, which allows
Speaker 5: people to plead legally guilty while maintaining public innocence and
Speaker 5: so they actually signed pleased that made them guilty for
Speaker 5: first degree murder and they were released, And it really
Speaker 5: kind of was I had seen it. I didn't really
Speaker 5: think much of it when they were released, but once
Speaker 5: I was researching the case, it really took a fascinating
Speaker 5: art arch of the case. The actual murders took place
Speaker 5: on May fifth of nineteen ninety three. Three young boys,
Speaker 5: Christopher Byers, Michael Moore, and Stephen Branch went out for
Speaker 5: a bike ride in West Memphis, Arkansas. It's right across
Speaker 5: the river west of Memphis, Tennessee, and they left at
Speaker 5: dusk and they were really never seen again. There was
Speaker 5: a huge search that took place for the boys and
Speaker 5: the next day they were found in a ditch close
Speaker 5: to the freeway. They were horrifically. They were a really
Speaker 5: bad shaped one of them it's rather graphic, but one
Speaker 5: had his generals removed and two others were tied in
Speaker 5: knots and later they found they were drowned in water.
Speaker 5: So there was this horrific crime and the police really
Speaker 5: were trying to figure out who did it. They they
Speaker 5: brought a lot of people over from the Drug Task
Speaker 5: Force of West Memphis to this murder case and really
Speaker 5: ferreted out and researched too it could be and what
Speaker 5: they came across from one person, the name of Damian Eckles,
Speaker 5: was popped into the police consciousness. They found out about
Speaker 5: this person and they really started researching him and looking
Speaker 5: into his path, and eventually they brought in one of
Speaker 5: his friends. His name was Jesse miss Kelly. They brought
Speaker 5: him in for an interrogation, whereupon he admitted to committing
Speaker 5: the crime with with Damian Eccles and Jason Baldwin, so
Speaker 5: all three of them became known as the West Memphis Three.
Speaker 5: They're arrested on June sixth of nineteen ninety three, and
Speaker 5: it brought along a trial and they were false. There
Speaker 5: were two two separate crows. Jesse Msskelly was separated a
Speaker 5: trial from Jason Baldwin and Damien Eckles, but they were
Speaker 5: all found guilty in two separate trials by twenty four jurors,
Speaker 5: and Jason Baldwin and Jesse ms Kelly were given life
Speaker 5: sentences and Damian Eckles was given the death penalty. He
Speaker 5: was scheduled for execution on the exact date of the
Speaker 5: murders one year later on May fifth, nineteen ninety four,
Speaker 5: and the case took a strange turn when these documentaries
Speaker 5: documentarians Berlin jer and Sinofsky went to West Memphis to
Speaker 5: record the murder trial and create this documentary that was
Speaker 5: known as Paradise Lost, the first one there were. It's
Speaker 5: actually a trilogy. Three documentaries were put out, but the
Speaker 5: first one was released in nineteen ninety six, and it
Speaker 5: created kind of a groundswell. It's very similar in fact
Speaker 5: to make King of a Murderer documentaries that came out
Speaker 5: where the public received a lot of information thinking they
Speaker 5: had received the totality of the information about the case
Speaker 5: and actually were sympathetic. So there was sympathetic towards Damian
Speaker 5: Echles and Jason Ballwood and just miss Kelly, and slowly
Speaker 5: it kind of grounds while the public support grew for
Speaker 5: these three boys who were supposedly railroaded by the authorities
Speaker 5: in West Memphis, and it led to kind of a
Speaker 5: cost eleb. Basically, a lot of celebrities such as Johnny Depp,
Speaker 5: Henry Rawlins, girls from the Dixie Chicks, Eddie Vetter all
Speaker 5: started supporting them and that's what led to their release.
Speaker 5: Something like there was. It's estimated there was ten to
Speaker 5: twenty million dollars that was raised. And what happened was
Speaker 5: they there was a rule that was passed in Arkansas
Speaker 5: that pertained to DNA evidence, and that allowed the appellate
Speaker 5: attorney to take this case back to court and put
Speaker 5: pressure on the prosecutors and then the people in Arkansas,
Speaker 5: and eventually what happened is the judge, one of the judges,
Speaker 5: was removed, a new judge was put on, and eventually
Speaker 5: they came to this conclusion where they were going to
Speaker 5: pleate guilty and then twenty eleven they were released.
Speaker 4: Let's go back to the crime scene. We have to
Speaker 4: go back to quite a few things actually to explain
Speaker 4: how this confession came about and the circumstances in which
Speaker 4: the investigation proceeded to Damien Eckels, and then the gathering
Speaker 4: of the information that supported their conclusions as to motive
Speaker 4: and to the suspects. So let's go back to the
Speaker 4: crime scene. Who discovered the bodies and under what circumstances
Speaker 4: and what was the evidence that was found solely at
Speaker 4: that site.
Speaker 5: Well, they were they were looking all over the kind
Speaker 5: of West Memphis area. What they went to is this
Speaker 5: place robin Hood Hills where the boys were last seen
Speaker 5: and it was in the Derek drainage ditch. One of
Speaker 5: the detectives, Burned Ridge, was looking through he had seen
Speaker 5: a piece of clothing in this ditch and that's where
Speaker 5: he found the bodies of the three boys. Is in
Speaker 5: this ditch. He found that their bodies were put down
Speaker 5: into the dirt with sticks in the mud. And you know,
Speaker 5: there was evidence of wounds on the side of one
Speaker 5: of the boy's face more and you know, that's when
Speaker 5: they discovered that they were bound in this strange fashion.
Speaker 4: Now, was there any other evidence footprints? Of course, they
Speaker 4: did whatever forensic investigation right at the scene. But what
Speaker 4: was the totality of the physical evidence they had to
Speaker 4: go from to gather leads from right at that crime.
Speaker 5: Well, they had some evidence. They found some blue wax
Speaker 5: that was found there. There was at that time they
Speaker 5: actually found and did a luminol test that brought up
Speaker 5: there was tons of blood in that area, and at
Speaker 5: that time the luminol was not admissible in a court
Speaker 5: of law for you know, evidence. But as far as
Speaker 5: everything else, you know, they they just had a bunch
Speaker 5: of rumors about what was going on in the park
Speaker 5: in that area. They had heard from other things that
Speaker 5: people were in the park, that there were kind of
Speaker 5: self south statanist groups, and that's really kind of where
Speaker 5: they led off to try to figure out who could
Speaker 5: have caused this crime.
Speaker 4: You talked just briefly about the condition of the young boys.
Speaker 4: You said there was the castration, removal of the young
Speaker 4: man's penis. These were three eight year olds. Tell us
Speaker 4: the graphic, Well, give us the graphic details of what
Speaker 4: you talk about. The tying of the of the the
Speaker 4: young boys. That's important. What was under evidence suggested, I mean,
Speaker 4: we're we're talking about evidence being severely compromised once they
Speaker 4: are in the water. So explain that and explain what
Speaker 4: they could deduce from what they did see and have
Speaker 4: at that scene.
Speaker 5: I mean, they deduced the boys were found in a
Speaker 5: very strange way. It was right arm to right leg,
Speaker 5: left arm to left leg, and it was it was
Speaker 5: kind of like a hog tie two of the boys
Speaker 5: and the other one. I mean the medical examiner Peretti,
Speaker 5: who was on in the trial, said that the buyer's
Speaker 5: boy had his penis and scrutum cut off. It was
Speaker 5: like his penis was sheeped, so there was piece of
Speaker 5: it on the inside. He said, it would have taken
Speaker 5: very much skill to actually remove that in such a way.
Speaker 5: And like I said, there were deeper wounds, and they
Speaker 5: really were just trying to ascertain who could have done that.
Speaker 5: There was water, ditch was drained, there was you know,
Speaker 5: that was basically it, and that's kind of what they
Speaker 5: had to go on. They didn't have too much evidence
Speaker 5: based upon the fact that the boys were in the water.
Speaker 4: Right now, there was other stab wounds and other evidence
Speaker 4: of mutilation to the boys, wasn't there, correct?
Speaker 5: I mean, there's what they had. Evidence that one had
Speaker 5: serious wounds to the left side of his face and
Speaker 5: two of them had forcible injuries to their skulls like
Speaker 5: cracked school. So they were beat up pretty bad.
Speaker 4: Now, right away, this is not something in a community
Speaker 4: of West Memphis, Arkansas. You say, population nineteen ninety three,
Speaker 4: twenty eight thousand, not so common, this kind of psycho
Speaker 4: psycho killing, psycho murder. When did the FBI get involved?
Speaker 4: And tell us again, the investigation right away centers on
Speaker 4: a person named Damian Eccles. But tell us about what
Speaker 4: the police do in terms of the stories that they
Speaker 4: gather the in terms of evidence that there was something
Speaker 4: going on of a satanic nature, a ritualistic nature, or
Speaker 4: a satanic nature. Tell us about that.
Speaker 5: Well, the FBI came in and assisted by providing kind
Speaker 5: of a behavioral and psychological study of the killer at
Speaker 5: the time, and there were Florence specialists drew up to
Speaker 5: West Memphis from the state capital of Little Rock to
Speaker 5: help with the collection of evidence. But they were collecting
Speaker 5: people came forward and talked about what was happening in
Speaker 5: robin Wood Hills. People told the police that kids was
Speaker 5: black and red hair hang out there in a cult.
Speaker 5: They said that they had seen people wearing pentagrams and
Speaker 5: they heard of like you know, stars of David are
Speaker 5: basically a hexagram that said you know that we're around there.
Speaker 5: So people had seen sacrificed animals in Robinhood around that
Speaker 5: time as well, and they'd also seen you know, smell
Speaker 5: smoke and hear chanting and strange music. So there were
Speaker 5: tons of this this kind of and the case files
Speaker 5: show this that all this evidence was being provided to
Speaker 5: police a lot of through police reports from a variety
Speaker 5: of different subjects that you know, this was going on
Speaker 5: in the area.
Speaker 4: Now, for those people that might say, you know, maybe
Speaker 4: teenagers are a little bit different these days. I know,
Speaker 4: my nephew or my niece wears black eyeliner and and
Speaker 4: you know, nail polish. How common is this, whether it's
Speaker 4: a community to twenty eight thousand, with the reports that
Speaker 4: you saw and the in terms of the numerous calls
Speaker 4: that you saw, how common do you think this is
Speaker 4: They're going to be just dismissed as some kind of
Speaker 4: teenage sort of hobby, fad or infatuation.
Speaker 5: That's a great question. I think that there is a
Speaker 5: subculture in the United States of kind of gods and
Speaker 5: people who are who get involved in witchcraft, and it
Speaker 5: happens all over the country. I've shown my book that
Speaker 5: there were other type of malevolent killings of people that
Speaker 5: were influenced by the occult, and I think specifically in
Speaker 5: west of Memphis there there definitely was something going on.
Speaker 5: It's all, you know. All the evidence shows that there
Speaker 5: were groups hanging out at this old cottingen they call
Speaker 5: it Stonehenge, and there were all kinds of activities taking
Speaker 5: place there. Bonfires and even Miss Kelly talked about the
Speaker 5: killing of dogs and sacrificing of dogs, and it came
Speaker 5: from a different, you know, wide variety of areas. So
Speaker 5: I think the commonality of the witchcraft you know, isn't huge.
Speaker 5: But you know, I showed in my book that there
Speaker 5: there are a ton of cases where it actually is
Speaker 5: a motivating factor in murders.
Speaker 4: For those of us that liked the definitions for things
Speaker 4: being real rigid, let's get to right now the definition
Speaker 4: for the FBI of a satanic crime. You say it's
Speaker 4: a satanic crime, yet it may not lack those specific
Speaker 4: ritualistic I'll let you explain the differences in your definition
Speaker 4: and the FBI's definition.
Speaker 5: Well, I mean I think that the FBI, and you know,
Speaker 5: somebody who was involved in the case, for example, was
Speaker 5: John Douglas. Their definition goes back to the Landing Report,
Speaker 5: who was Keith lank Kenneth Lanning was a supervisory special
Speaker 5: agent in their in their behavioral science unit, and he
Speaker 5: basically said that there isn't really any cult activity and
Speaker 5: that this kind of sexual victimization of children wasn't is
Speaker 5: not a cult motivated And so the FBI really goes
Speaker 5: back and uses that, and my my definition is definitely
Speaker 5: different I My definition is that you know, if it's
Speaker 5: if these people are heavily involved in the occult and
Speaker 5: they're motivated by their occult ideas to murder, then I
Speaker 5: think murder can be defined as a as an occult,
Speaker 5: you know, a cult influenced murder. Whereas the the FBI
Speaker 5: themselves do not even believe that you know that these
Speaker 5: type of these type of murders take place. Uh so
Speaker 5: you know, they their their their specific statement is their definition,
Speaker 5: and it's a specific definition of satanic murder, says murder
Speaker 5: committed by two or more individuals who rationally plan the crime,
Speaker 5: whose primary motivated invasion is to fulfill a prescribed Satanic
Speaker 5: ritual calling for the murder. So it's a very specific standard.
Speaker 5: And I think that that you know, demand so much
Speaker 5: pre pre preliminary thought to go through with it that
Speaker 5: for me, I don't think. I don't I think that
Speaker 5: actually kind of narrows the the the possibility of this,
Speaker 5: you know, of that description applying to certain crimes where
Speaker 5: it actually is happening. And you know the other thing
Speaker 5: is that I think the FBI standard is dependent upon
Speaker 5: having those facts that show that there is you know,
Speaker 5: a primary motivation and that they're rationally planning, when you
Speaker 5: know a lot of some of these acts are typically
Speaker 5: irrational and they're not going to actually state that for
Speaker 5: the police to understand that it's happening. If that makes sense.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Now let's talk about Damien Echos and he changed
Speaker 4: his name to Damien, and there's various reports he is,
Speaker 4: there's conflicting reports why he would call himself Damien. But
Speaker 4: tell us what his real name is, and tell us
Speaker 4: about his parents, and tell us a little bit about
Speaker 4: the real record on what the police found from their records,
Speaker 4: from the medical records and legal records on Damien Eccles
Speaker 4: eighteen News of age.
Speaker 5: That's a great question. There's a lot of there were
Speaker 5: tons of records that were brought forth in the trial.
Speaker 5: But he was born Michael Hutchinson. He is the son
Speaker 5: of Pamela and Andrew Joe excuse me, Pamela and Joe
Speaker 5: Hutchinson who were divorced and he Pamela remarried a guy
Speaker 5: by the name of Andrew Eckles, and Mike Hutchinson became
Speaker 5: Damien Eckles. He took on the name Damien. There is
Speaker 5: some dispute whether he took it after the name of
Speaker 5: the central character of the anti Christ character from the
Speaker 5: omen Or. He claimed that he took it from the
Speaker 5: name of a Catholic priest who assisted lepers in Hawaii.
Speaker 5: But I think the name is more consistent with his
Speaker 5: sensibilities which are in the occult, and we can go
Speaker 5: into that in greater detail. But he before the crimes,
Speaker 5: Damien Eckles was you know, he had no at eighteen,
Speaker 5: he had no driver's license, no automobile, and he had
Speaker 5: been in hospitals twice. He had actually been arrested after
Speaker 5: being found by police in West Memphis hiding in a
Speaker 5: trailer and after threatening to kill the police officer and
Speaker 5: his girlfriend's father. He was charged with burgo rebreaking and
Speaker 5: entering disorderly conduct, sexual misconduct, and terroristic threatening. So this
Speaker 5: was before the crimes. He was sent for a stay
Speaker 5: at the juvi Or Juvenile Detention Center on May twenty sixth,
Speaker 5: nineteen ninety two, almost a year to the day before
Speaker 5: the murders took place, and he he basically was in
Speaker 5: and out of three different mental institutions and this came
Speaker 5: up at the at the penalty phase of his death
Speaker 5: penalty hearing his own PI went out and collected all
Speaker 5: of this information so that his attorneys could have it
Speaker 5: for court, and it became his PI was by the
Speaker 5: name of Ronald Lax, who's deceased, but it's become known
Speaker 5: as Exhibits five hundred because there's actually five hundred pages
Speaker 5: of psychiatric and evaluation information in this voluminous kind of file,
Speaker 5: and it goes into detail about Damien Echle's sensibilities, what
Speaker 5: he thought about his family, his ideas about the occult,
Speaker 5: and it's very voluminous. I only, you know, took part
Speaker 5: of it out for my book, but it indicates so much.
Speaker 5: And these are all by third parties in two different places,
Speaker 5: taking place in Arkansas, and while the Hutchison family was
Speaker 5: briefly in Oregon, Eckles was in an organ mental institution
Speaker 5: as well, So he was in two different mental institutions
Speaker 5: and two states, and they're fairly consistent testimony. It talks
Speaker 5: about Eckles being dangerous, irritable, involved in bizarre and unusual behavior. Echles,
Speaker 5: Damian Eckles, believed in blood drinking, which is a consistent
Speaker 5: kind of thing. He doesn't he admit admitted to practicing
Speaker 5: witchcraft and stated he was a practicing warlock. So this
Speaker 5: is a person who you know was involved in the
Speaker 5: occult prior to the murders. He uh, he burned his forearms.
Speaker 5: So you know, there's tons of information about echoes in
Speaker 5: detail that really show somebody who really is capable of
Speaker 5: these type of murders. And uh, it's a really I know,
Speaker 5: I bid book detailed it, uh in detail.
Speaker 4: Now for those I just happened to do some research
Speaker 4: just a few weeks ago on my own for my
Speaker 4: own interest and read about Alistair Crowley and Hermetic code
Speaker 4: and uh, the philosophy do thou thou what thou wilst,
Speaker 4: which means basically, do whatever you want as long as
Speaker 4: no one gets hurt except Alistair Crowley. And you provide
Speaker 4: a lot of this information in the book that Alistair Crowley,
Speaker 4: in real terms and practical terms had a much more
Speaker 4: sinister philosophy than do what you want or do what
Speaker 4: you will avoid sexual and moral repression. You know, because
Speaker 4: he lived in the time of nineteen hundred to nineteen
Speaker 4: forty seven, so eighteen seventy five or whatever it was,
Speaker 4: so a time of sexual and moral repression. But really
Speaker 4: tell us about Aleister Crowley, his philosophy in real terms
Speaker 4: what he really did have to say and how it
Speaker 4: relates to Damien Eccles and his interest and also relates
Speaker 4: to things like animal sacrifice.
Speaker 5: Right. So Crowley was born in eighteen seventy five. He died,
Speaker 5: like he said, in nineteen forty seven. He was a
Speaker 5: wealthy Englishman and at some point in his life, when
Speaker 5: he went to Cambridge, he became interested in the occult
Speaker 5: and he rebelled against what he grew up in, which
Speaker 5: is a Christian faith. He wanted to get in personal
Speaker 5: communication with the devil, and he basically changed his kind
Speaker 5: of name to He was born as Edward Alexander. He
Speaker 5: became Alistair and kind of like the echo was changing
Speaker 5: his name and referred to himself as the Beast. He
Speaker 5: really thought that magic worked. He was trying to be
Speaker 5: in contact with super you know, human entities, and he
Speaker 5: really was an influence upon the twentieth century. He wrote
Speaker 5: the Book of the Law, and his ideas, like you said,
Speaker 5: was do with thou wilt. He believed in total permissiveness
Speaker 5: and freedom, and his whole phrase was do with thou
Speaker 5: wilt should be the whole of the loss of the
Speaker 5: eleven word phrase eleven was kind of his kind of
Speaker 5: favorite number. And Cruy talked about human sacrifice. He talked
Speaker 5: about the choicest sacrifice as a young child of perfect intelligence.
Speaker 5: And those were the three kids who died, and you know,
Speaker 5: they were eight years old. And he one of his
Speaker 5: books is Lib sixty six where he talked about child sacrifice.
Speaker 5: And so this cruelly cruelly is an important part of
Speaker 5: the case. Like I talked about earlier, why I got
Speaker 5: involved in the case was during the trial, Crowley was
Speaker 5: brought up by one of the prosecutors because Eccles had
Speaker 5: been scribbling something in a kind of secret language that
Speaker 5: had the name of Alistair Croley on it in kind
Speaker 5: of this cryptic language, and it kind of brought got
Speaker 5: brought up. And Eccles, actually, i've found out, was a
Speaker 5: member of Croley's Oto. It's a secret society. It's the
Speaker 5: Ordo Templey Orientus. He's a member. He had his library
Speaker 5: there in Arkansas, they had his magical library. And he
Speaker 5: also stated recently that he was prosecuted because of his
Speaker 5: love of Aleister Crowley, and which is odd because people
Speaker 5: at the time, back in nineteen ninety three didn't know
Speaker 5: the totality of his interests. You know, they knew that
Speaker 5: he had a pentagram carved into his chest as a tattoo.
Speaker 5: But you know, so Crowley is an interesting element of
Speaker 5: this of this case, and it goes to this case.
Speaker 5: And it's interesting since since Eccles has been released, he's
Speaker 5: been seen with people who are interesting Crawley as well.
Speaker 5: I wrote a piece about him in The Satanic Underground
Speaker 5: and he's been seen with other interesting Curley aficionados. So
Speaker 5: Auster Crowley is I think an important element in this case.
Speaker 5: And there's there. He actually Cruelly had something he called
Speaker 5: the Seal of Babylon, which was kind of a seven letter,
Speaker 5: seven starred kind of insignia. And Damien Eckles has got
Speaker 5: this huge back tattoo that is a black son with
Speaker 5: this kind of same motif on his back. So he's
Speaker 5: he's doing things that are consistent with kind of Cruelly's symbology.
Speaker 4: Let's get to something a little bit more specific, because
Speaker 4: this is some of the stuff that's controversial to some
Speaker 4: people or maybe even absurd to some people, but it
Speaker 4: is specific. Let's talk about the significance of eight year olds.
Speaker 4: Let's talk about why young boys were important in terms
Speaker 4: of Crowley and the philosophy itself and some of the
Speaker 4: other things that were done to the boys. So tell
Speaker 4: us where you're as you bring up in the book
Speaker 4: the evidence that points to specific necessary things that happened
Speaker 4: that otherwise might seem very very random and crazy.
Speaker 5: We'll say, well, just the fact that he was drawing.
Speaker 5: He was interested in sacrificing a child. He had talked
Speaker 5: about that with his girlfriend, and I put in the
Speaker 5: book that they're you know, there's a drawing of done
Speaker 5: by his girlfriend of child sacrifice under a moon in
Speaker 5: a in a kind of cemetery environment, so you can
Speaker 5: see that in there. But the eight year old, you know,
Speaker 5: he's he's you know, Crawley, like I said earlier, male
Speaker 5: child of perfect innocence and high intelligence is the most
Speaker 5: satisfactory and suitable victim that comes from magic and they
Speaker 5: and practice. So you know, he was very much Curley
Speaker 5: was interested in sacrifice. And what happened on May fifth
Speaker 5: of nineteen ninety three was on a full moon. The
Speaker 5: children were tied with these ties that indicate and are
Speaker 5: significant in the occult because they maintain magical power. These
Speaker 5: these knots are actually called they accord magic is really
Speaker 5: what they reference to it. And that's what I believe,
Speaker 5: and that's what I drew comparison to is these magic
Speaker 5: knots and cord magic that was in and reference in
Speaker 5: a book called Bucklan's Complete Book of Witchcraft, which which
Speaker 5: Damien Eckles had used as a reference point and actually
Speaker 5: told people that he wanted a copy of it while
Speaker 5: he was in while he was in prison. So this
Speaker 5: cord magic is very in. The children were bound in
Speaker 5: a very strange manner with different knots of different styles,
Speaker 5: and so I believe that the knots are significant and
Speaker 5: similar to what would be in this wiccan or occult magic.
Speaker 5: And you know that's one of the other things and things.
Speaker 5: These things take place in full moons are very important
Speaker 5: to the wick and calendar. The deaths happened close to Belltane.
Speaker 5: They were about three or four days outside of Beltane.
Speaker 5: So I do believe that there is a consistency. And
Speaker 5: Damian Echles is still a practicing magician. He's still tattooing
Speaker 5: his body with even alphabet with the cryptic occult symbols
Speaker 5: and the Enochian alphabet which is from John D. And
Speaker 5: there's a Kelly who was his kind of describe. So
Speaker 5: these are things that go back to the Western esoterica
Speaker 5: tradition that Taman Eckles is interested. And he actually said
Speaker 5: in this documentary West of Memphis that was produced by
Speaker 5: Peter Jackson that he wanted to be the greatest magician
Speaker 5: that I ever lived. That's the way he thinks of
Speaker 5: himself after getting out of jail.
Speaker 4: Now, I wanted to ask this question, is when we
Speaker 4: talk about some of the things that the police were
Speaker 4: information the police were getting from people, third party persons
Speaker 4: talking about what Damien did at certain points, tell us
Speaker 4: about the incidents of him photographing people and its importance
Speaker 4: before we give that little bit of information away, but
Speaker 4: its importance to again the cruelly and satanic philosophy.
Speaker 5: Well, I think there was people came forward and gave
Speaker 5: testimony to the police of all different types of things
Speaker 5: that make it into the trial. But there was one
Speaker 5: family who came forward and said that Damien Eckles was
Speaker 5: seen in a bush taking pictures of his kids to
Speaker 5: girls age nine and eleven, And there were other photographs
Speaker 5: that were in supposedly in the possession of Eccles, of
Speaker 5: the boys that he killed, so some people actually believed
Speaker 5: that he stocked his victims before they were murdered. On
Speaker 5: May fifth, nineteen ninety three, there was the black a
Speaker 5: black briefcase that it contained their drugs and these pictures
Speaker 5: that other people testified about, So, uh, there is there
Speaker 5: was a potential that other people were being you know,
Speaker 5: stalked him. And he said two girls heard him admit
Speaker 5: to the murders and they were they their testimony was
Speaker 5: granted in court. It was never recanted or anything. But
Speaker 5: they also said that Eckles was going to kill two more.
Speaker 5: He was gunning for five total victims, and some of
Speaker 5: the evidence of what was happening before the murders indicated
Speaker 5: that that was the case. So, you know the mentality
Speaker 5: of you know, sacrifice, and it seems like they escalated
Speaker 5: all the way up to human sacrifice through animal sacrifice.
Speaker 5: There were other people who came to the police said
Speaker 5: their dogs were stolen. They had seen Jason Baldwin taking
Speaker 5: their dog. So they are very harrowing and scary statements
Speaker 5: that were given to police about equals and Baldwin.
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Speaker 4: them out. When we last left off, William, we were
Speaker 4: speaking about we haven't got to the point where Jim
Speaker 4: ms kelly is taken in for questioning. Tell us the
Speaker 4: circumstances in that, of course, we've heard about Damian Eccles.
Speaker 4: By this point, do the police know about Jason Baldwin?
Speaker 4: How much did they know? And how much they know
Speaker 4: or do they think they know about Jim ms Kelly Junior.
Speaker 4: Why talk to Jim ms Kelly before Jason Baldwin or
Speaker 4: Damian Eccles tell us about the circumstances that Jim ms
Speaker 4: Kelly comes to be the first person that they really question.
Speaker 5: Great question, it's Jesse ms Kelly. So Jesse ms Kelly Jr.
Speaker 5: Pardon was question on June third, he was brought into
Speaker 5: the police station. I think he actually the police actually
Speaker 5: drove to Jesse mss Kelly Junior's DADA to ask if
Speaker 5: he could come in for questioning. They were still looking around.
Speaker 5: I don't think the police at this point knew the
Speaker 5: totality of what was going on with Eccles and Baldwin,
Speaker 5: even though Eckles was a person of interest. But what
Speaker 5: happened was he was brought in at about nine to
Speaker 5: forty five. There was they didn't really record right away,
Speaker 5: but there is a recorded part of it that they
Speaker 5: actually gave Jesse a lie detector test which he failed.
Speaker 5: The polygraph failed, and then they started asking him questions
Speaker 5: and he basically started talking after about two or three hours,
Speaker 5: and he gave his first statement at about two forty five,
Speaker 5: and that's what led to the arrest of Damien and Jason.
Speaker 5: But once they made it to trial, this first confession
Speaker 5: was basically attacked, you know, very standard stuff for defense
Speaker 5: people to do, because Jesse wasn't being specific about some
Speaker 5: of the stuff. And Jesse said that he was intentionally
Speaker 5: being deceptive. But the uh, the the confession that he
Speaker 5: gave was was close enough to you know, end up
Speaker 5: getting all three of them arrested. And you know, he
Speaker 5: gave a lot of details that were specific to the
Speaker 5: crime about the kids, about him chasing one bat back
Speaker 5: one down and bring him back and tell.
Speaker 4: Us about the tell us about specifically what he said
Speaker 4: in that first confession regarding details about.
Speaker 5: The murders, well, he specifically said Damien raped fire, So
Speaker 5: he raped one of the boys and then they both
Speaker 5: both chasing and Damien raped Branch. So it's very very
Speaker 5: graphic and there was different types of sex sex and uh,
Speaker 5: basically they were holding him down while while this uh
Speaker 5: you know, this kind of torture that was taking place,
Speaker 5: and it was it was very detailed. They uh he
Speaker 5: said that he had him in a headlock, that at
Speaker 5: one point one of the kids got away, he chased
Speaker 5: him down and he said Jesse seemed to say that
Speaker 5: he left before the kids were disposed of that before
Speaker 5: that they were murdered, but you know, it was pretty
Speaker 5: graphic and very very for me thou and that the
Speaker 5: recording of the first confession is online.
Speaker 4: Now forensically through the whether they were in the water
Speaker 4: or not. Were the police concerned about forensic corroboration with
Speaker 4: some of the details that he had specifically at about
Speaker 4: the murder. They realized early on that this guy had
Speaker 4: a sort of a frustrating sort of manner in terms
Speaker 4: of discounting himself or contradicting himself ten seconds from an
Speaker 4: earlier statement, But in terms of the actual details of
Speaker 4: the murder, did they line up forensically? Was there were
Speaker 4: they cognizant of that the situation at that time when
Speaker 4: he was given those that dev of information.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think there was some consistencies of what happened
Speaker 5: to the boy. The beatings and the kind of torture that
Speaker 5: took place was consistent with what happened was found through
Speaker 5: the medical examination. So I think without a doubt there
Speaker 5: were consistencies there there. It wasn't there wasn't anything that
Speaker 5: was super strong that tied him directly to it. But
Speaker 5: he did he did say, you know, he talked about
Speaker 5: the ropes. He did he talked about things, and you know,
Speaker 5: they didn't find in the medical examination any evidence of
Speaker 5: sexual assault. It was really just miss Kelly's statement or
Speaker 5: his confession that indicated that. So there were there were
Speaker 5: some inconsistencies between what was able to be found and
Speaker 5: what the confession.
Speaker 4: Was, such as the rope versus what they were actually
Speaker 4: bound with, right.
Speaker 5: Right, So he said rope and they were actually bound
Speaker 5: with with shoe strings, and you know, so he was
Speaker 5: kind of he was consistent to a certain extent, but
Speaker 5: like I said, you know, there were definitely variance. Is
Speaker 5: an understanding that that the defense definitely brought up during Trump.
Speaker 4: What was Jesse ms Kelly's I guess he's confessing, so
Speaker 4: he's not doesn't have an alibi. And part of what
Speaker 4: you say about in terms of the inconsistencies are the
Speaker 4: gross in in inconsistencies in terms of the time the
Speaker 4: time frame here timeline, I should say this is enough
Speaker 4: evidence to get Jason Baldwin arrested and Damian eckles tell
Speaker 4: us what happens with Jason Baldwin before you talk about
Speaker 4: Damian eccles.
Speaker 5: Well, Jason, Jason Baldwin and they were essentially arrested and
Speaker 5: brought in a lot of people started giving testimony, but
Speaker 5: they were both tried separately, and Jason Baldwin was he
Speaker 5: basically had no alibi. There was no stated alibi in
Speaker 5: the trial, which was interesting. So he really didn't say
Speaker 5: anything about that as far as you know specifics. When
Speaker 5: they were arrested, a lot of people get testimony about
Speaker 5: or talk to police and journalists about Baldwin and eccles
Speaker 5: involvement in the occult. And then Damian Eckles tried to
Speaker 5: commit suicide on June eighth, about five days after their arrest.
Speaker 4: What about Damien echles alibi was it supported? What was
Speaker 4: his alibi?
Speaker 5: Well, they couldn't find it. He said that he was
Speaker 5: on the phone with three different women during the time
Speaker 5: of the murders. The murders were suspected to have taken
Speaker 5: place sometime at dusk, sometime in the late afternoon or
Speaker 5: early evening of that May fifth night, and he said
Speaker 5: he was on the phone. And then when the police
Speaker 5: investigated the supposed people that he was on the phone
Speaker 5: with out that it was either on different days or
Speaker 5: it just wasn't consistent with the times that he provided.
Speaker 4: What's the most one of the most fascinating parts elements
Speaker 4: of your book, which is an incredible and fascinating book itself,
Speaker 4: is the way Damien Echols conducts himself in an interview
Speaker 4: again when especially when the police are bringing up the
Speaker 4: occult accusations and any evidence that they bring up, what
Speaker 4: is his demeanor like, how does he conduct himself before
Speaker 4: we get to again what you have pointed out is
Speaker 4: very crucial and I agree with you the talk of
Speaker 4: the urine.
Speaker 5: Right well, Damien Echols was he was interviewed right away
Speaker 5: after the murders and he indicated kind of a lot
Speaker 5: of things about what happened in the case. He really
Speaker 5: talked about what he thought about who did it, why
Speaker 5: they did it. That he actually said that there was
Speaker 5: a likelihood that the person did it because they enjoyed it,
Speaker 5: and you know it was it was a very remarkable statement.
Speaker 5: The the nobody had known because the boys were in
Speaker 5: the water that there was any urine involved, but the uh,
Speaker 5: you know, Damien Echles when he was first interviewed, said
Speaker 5: that you know there was something having to having to do.
Speaker 5: He said, you know that there was something involved with
Speaker 5: urine in it. And then what happens was when they
Speaker 5: when they actually investigated the medical investigator and he.
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Speaker 5: Investigated two weeks later. He found evidence of urine in
Speaker 5: there in their stomachs, and so Hackles himself had to
Speaker 5: there's no reason why he would have brought that up
Speaker 5: with the crucial initial interview that took place May seventh
Speaker 5: between him and the police.
Speaker 4: In terms of doing himself any favors, in terms of
Speaker 4: the question about the cult, how does he conduct himself
Speaker 4: in that area, as.
Speaker 5: Far as like his his involvement in the occult as
Speaker 5: the the initial part of the trial, you know, he
Speaker 5: had I mean, it's hard, it was hard for him
Speaker 5: to completely deny it. He at the time he had
Speaker 5: the tattoo of E. V I L tattoo to cross
Speaker 5: his left knuckles, and so did James Jason Baldwin. But
Speaker 5: he couldn't really, he couldn't really denied. I don't I don't.
Speaker 5: I don't think that he they really asked him too
Speaker 5: much about the occult initially, but they definitely brought it
Speaker 5: up during the trial. But he said like he was doing.
Speaker 3: He was.
Speaker 5: He's he had stated stuff that he had liked the
Speaker 5: Bible and the Book of Revelations. He liked the devil,
Speaker 5: so he you know, he brought that up at the
Speaker 5: original the the original interview. He also said something about
Speaker 5: the power, so he kind of indicated that he knew
Speaker 5: about the cult. He said something about the the innocence
Speaker 5: of the victim, the more power that the person would
Speaker 5: have gotten in the sacrifice. So he did or reveals
Speaker 5: stuff at the very beginning, now that I remember it.
Speaker 5: And he also, you know, he he in his initial
Speaker 5: interview or the time that the police talked to him
Speaker 5: on May seventies said stuff about the wake of religion
Speaker 5: and about evil being rewarded three times. So he definitely
Speaker 5: showed that, you know, that there was He definitely showed
Speaker 5: that he was interested in the occult when he was
Speaker 5: first interviewed.
Speaker 4: Was there any move by his attorneys to have him
Speaker 4: psychiatrically assessed for the trial?
Speaker 5: Not that not that I recall. I don't recall that
Speaker 5: they had full let me think they had there was,
Speaker 5: you know, I think that there was something that Yeah,
Speaker 5: I don't, I don't recall. I don't think.
Speaker 4: So now how do they with this you include that
Speaker 4: there is if I'm not correct? Five separate confessions I
Speaker 4: believe from Jesse ms Kelly, Am I not correct?
Speaker 5: Correct? That is correct? He So the confessions took place
Speaker 5: after his conviction. After his conviction, so his first confession
Speaker 5: confession was the June third, nineteen ninety three confession. He
Speaker 5: also confessed he actually met with his attorney in August
Speaker 5: and confessed to him in nineteen ninety three, which was
Speaker 5: never brought up. But then once he got sentenced, he
Speaker 5: confessed over and over again. And so those confessions are recorded.
Speaker 5: I put them in my book to show that you know,
Speaker 5: he clearly is involved in the case. All the detailed.
Speaker 5: There's definitely details that were confirmed and confirmations about a
Speaker 5: whiskey bottle that they drank. They actually found that where
Speaker 5: he said it was. But he confessed after he was sentenced,
Speaker 5: which is like February fourth, on the way to jail,
Speaker 5: he actually confessed to the police. Then he talked in
Speaker 5: front of his attorney. He said that, and this is
Speaker 5: February eighth, he said that he did it again. And
Speaker 5: then on February seventeenth, he brings the prosecutors over and
Speaker 5: he confesses again in front of his in front of
Speaker 5: his attorney. He was begging him not to do it.
Speaker 5: So he confessed over and over and over again. So
Speaker 5: it's fairly clear that Jesse, Damien, and Jason were involved
Speaker 5: in the murders.
Speaker 4: Why is it that there is talk about him because
Speaker 4: of the evidence, him being just to star witness, why
Speaker 4: he does not testify against the other two, and why
Speaker 4: his case is separated to explain that?
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, I think that because of his situation, they
Speaker 5: separated the case and he wasn't going to testify against them,
Speaker 5: and so the cases were were separated.
Speaker 4: But there was talk originally that he once he went
Speaker 4: in for that third confession or the confession where he
Speaker 4: was advised against it by his attorneys, yet he did
Speaker 4: still confess and gave even more clarification of details other
Speaker 4: things that he said he had misled the investigators regarding.
Speaker 4: So this is a very strong confession with his lawyer
Speaker 4: strongly advising him not to do that.
Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah, those those confessions there. You can hear his
Speaker 5: lawyers saying, don't do it, it's against your interests. But
Speaker 5: miss Kelly keeps saying, I want something done about it.
Speaker 5: I want something done about it.
Speaker 4: So let's get to an important issue, because this is like,
Speaker 4: as you put in the book, and I admire that
Speaker 4: you did this, and it's I know it's necessary as well,
Speaker 4: is that you addressed the supporters, because by this time,
Speaker 4: you know, Paradise lost as I don't know if I
Speaker 4: can't remember if it weren't earned it in the Academy Awards,
Speaker 4: but earned a lot of praise, got a lot of exposure.
Speaker 4: You talk about Peter Jackson involved with this, So there
Speaker 4: is a lot of people who have watched that program
Speaker 4: been I guess they think dutifully outraged and they've based
Speaker 4: their conclusions on that. And so in your book Abomination,
Speaker 4: you actually address those people and some of those things.
Speaker 4: So let's address the really one of it seems like
Speaker 4: they're One of their big big contentions is that that
Speaker 4: jesse ms Kelly has got the IQ of seventy two
Speaker 4: or seventy eight or doesn't have his faculties about him
Speaker 4: and manipulative, manipulative police officers were planting details, important details,
Speaker 4: not less important details, tell us about his IQ and
Speaker 4: how you discuss it in the book about Jesse ms
Speaker 4: Kelly his ability to be able to be interrogated.
Speaker 5: I think that was to their benefit to get Jesse
Speaker 5: miss Kelly's IQ under seven, you know, to make him
Speaker 5: borderline retarded, and that would discount the confession. The reality
Speaker 5: is that he had done another IQ test that he
Speaker 5: scored something closer to an eighty eighty eight eighty four
Speaker 5: to eighty eight. And you can tell just from the
Speaker 5: confessions that are reported that you know, he knows what
Speaker 5: was going on. He's talking about specific things. So I
Speaker 5: think that was the defense tactic to kind of discount
Speaker 5: and get his testimony thrown out. And you know, then
Speaker 5: there are other things that where they talk about, you know,
Speaker 5: they supposedly, you know, brow beat him for all these hours.
Speaker 5: It was an eleven hour grueling interview. But there's no
Speaker 5: evidence of that either. And I think that that's fairly
Speaker 5: clear that that can be rejected. But you know, it's
Speaker 5: very important to see that say those because, like you
Speaker 5: said that, the public's understanding of the case was marred
Speaker 5: by these, you know, documentaries, the three documentaries that came out,
Speaker 5: and also by Echos's West the Memphis, which came out
Speaker 5: I think in twenty thirteen or twenty twelve. Well, so
Speaker 5: you know, they get a whole different view of the
Speaker 5: whole court case. That's different from actually reading what actually
Speaker 5: happened during court, you know, during the court cases.
Speaker 4: I mus allass this now while it's on my mind,
Speaker 4: and we were talking about Peter Jackson and celebrities. We're
Speaker 4: talking about beloved Hollywood actors and musicians and celebrities. Metallica
Speaker 4: was in the Paradise Lost soundtrack Eddie Vedder from Pearl Jam.
Speaker 4: I believe we have Johnny Depp very very much involved,
Speaker 4: Peter Jackson from Lord of the Rings, other people, other
Speaker 4: celebrities involved to the tune, Like you say, ten to
Speaker 4: twenty million dollars able to bet, to hire the best
Speaker 4: depellate lawyers, and also more importantly I think, is to
Speaker 4: hire expert testimony and expert witnesses and their testimony. As
Speaker 4: everyone can imagine, more money, sometimes better the not sometimes
Speaker 4: the better the expert testimony. So I want to ask
Speaker 4: this question because you have done a book about Crowley,
Speaker 4: you have commented, and I don't want to get too
Speaker 4: much into this because we have to go through this
Speaker 4: story which is very very important in that some of
Speaker 4: these celebrities have incorporated the philosophy and the symbolism and
Speaker 4: the I guess, I guess just like somebody that might
Speaker 4: rock stars have done before adopted the Nazi symbolism and
Speaker 4: some of the fashion and we'll say so some of
Speaker 4: those things where musicians dabble with that for controversial reasons
Speaker 4: and for just to be bad so that you know
Speaker 4: your parents want you to get rid of the records.
Speaker 4: I think that's been telltale if you get to your
Speaker 4: parents upset. But let's get back to its effect in
Speaker 4: this case here in terms of were these musicians and
Speaker 4: directors and these seemingly intelligent people that are certainly not
Speaker 4: sacrificing babies, maybe probably not even sacrificing anything, probably vegan
Speaker 4: for for God's sakes. But what is it a matter
Speaker 4: of that they that there? They were, They were juped,
Speaker 4: they were hypnotized. Are they naive? Do they dabble? Do
Speaker 4: they only understand Crowley a little bit? Do they not
Speaker 4: understand Crowley? Do they did not do the investigation? What
Speaker 4: is it about this?
Speaker 5: It's hard and that's a great question. When I first
Speaker 5: when I first investigated this case in twenty twelve, I
Speaker 5: really didn't know about the involvement of the celebrities. I
Speaker 5: didn't understand them. I didn't know much about them. The
Speaker 5: more I researched, the more I found out that they are.
Speaker 5: Many of the Central Core celebrities have similar outlook Damian Eckles,
Speaker 5: and I think that there were spiritual traveler fellow travelers.
Speaker 5: Johnny Depp himself got a tattoo with Damian Eccles that
Speaker 5: represents what's called wind over Heaven, and somebody in the
Speaker 5: cole told me it represents Lucifer, the Lord of the Air.
Speaker 5: And Peter Jackson also got one of Damian Eckles style tattoos,
Speaker 5: So a lot of I think that that was really
Speaker 5: one of the Core celebrities that's really who. They were
Speaker 5: very similar in outlook as Echles. Like Margaret Choe, who
Speaker 5: was a comedian, called called Damian Eckles the heavy metal
Speaker 5: rock star, you know, like she really admiringly liked him.
Speaker 5: So I do think that he called him the heavy
Speaker 5: metal Nelson Mandela, that's what she called Damian eckriyanm. So
Speaker 5: I do think that some people really are are sympathetic
Speaker 5: with him because of their similar ideology. And an interesting
Speaker 5: point is that Marilyn Manson, who was the like satanic
Speaker 5: rock star, he was kind of a hidden secret supporter
Speaker 5: of Damian Eckles, and he and Damian Eckles have hung
Speaker 5: out together. So there's pictures of them together. There's pictures
Speaker 5: of Eckels and Depth after the after the release, and
Speaker 5: Peter Jackson was a huge supporter, even like let Eckels
Speaker 5: live in his house in New York. So it's very strange,
Speaker 5: it's very very strange.
Speaker 4: Well, you have cited because again I think this is
Speaker 4: a great example, and I got to I think, don't
Speaker 4: want to, you know, imagine that's the case in terms
Speaker 4: of they all believe in human sacrifice. Like I said,
Speaker 4: I don't even think they would believe in in animal sacrifice,
Speaker 4: no matter how far or deep they are into this.
Speaker 4: Now I could be wrong, but you do cite other examples,
Speaker 4: like again, intelligent, respectable people. You would think Norman Mahler
Speaker 4: uh supporting a former killer, and you do cite a
Speaker 4: couple of cases. So cite a couple of cases like that,
Speaker 4: where again the celebrities champion these guys because of their
Speaker 4: supposed literary talents and they were wrong. Right.
Speaker 5: One was a famous guy, his name was Hank Abbott,
Speaker 5: and he was kind of similar to Echols. I put
Speaker 5: him in the book because he had written a book
Speaker 5: like Echoes had written a book in jail that was
Speaker 5: very sympathetic, and it drew all these people to be
Speaker 5: involved with him. Norman Mailer, it's just a perfect example.
Speaker 5: He was like with this cause lev kind of killer sympathizer.
Speaker 5: Abbot gets out, he writes a book called in the
Speaker 5: Belly of the Beast, comes a nationwide, nationwide bestseller. But
Speaker 5: Abbot kind of doesn't change his stripes. He gets out
Speaker 5: and kills a waiter over an argument over nothing. And
Speaker 5: at the trial, Mayler was there, Susan Sarandon was there,
Speaker 5: Aunt Christopher Walking. So these were people who were sympathetic
Speaker 5: with a guy who had killed twice. There was another
Speaker 5: case I quote, which is Jack Underwager. It took place
Speaker 5: in Austria, but he was a known person who had
Speaker 5: been in jail. He had been in for pimping and
Speaker 5: petty crime. He gets in jail for the murder of
Speaker 5: a prostitute, writes a book, and then the the literati
Speaker 5: and literati of Austria get him out when he goes
Speaker 5: out and kills again. So and then I also talk
Speaker 5: about Mumia Abu Jamal, who you know, all the evidence
Speaker 5: points to him killing the police officer Faulkner and he's
Speaker 5: still kind of a hero of the left, and he
Speaker 5: has against Susan Trandon pops up. But all these other
Speaker 5: people are very simple sympathetic towards this person. So I
Speaker 5: liken them a lot too, Damien Echls in the West
Speaker 5: Memphis three as it's kind of a sympathetic figures for
Speaker 5: these celebrities.
Speaker 4: Now you've watched everything including Paradise Lost and the Triology
Speaker 4: trilogy of documentaries and the movie everything, the videos you
Speaker 4: say that you have posted on your uh on your
Speaker 4: site uh right that talk about Damien Echles and interviews,
Speaker 4: So you have everything, every shred and bit of information
Speaker 4: not only stored in this book, but everything that you
Speaker 4: have in terms of this entire project in terms of evidence,
Speaker 4: What is it exactly that people have the biggest problem
Speaker 4: with Because it's been depicted that they just liked that
Speaker 4: these guys were railroaded because they liked black shirts and
Speaker 4: Metallica and how can they get so far how can
Speaker 4: they get so far off? So what was it about?
Speaker 4: Where did they hinge these ideas? I know that they
Speaker 4: would take the separate ideas, but again, if you could
Speaker 4: kind of dissect on where the filmmakers either went wrong
Speaker 4: or purposely directed them in the wrong direction. Where were
Speaker 4: the key points where people that are supporters of their
Speaker 4: innocence were duped?
Speaker 5: Well, I think that the you know, the second and
Speaker 5: there were the trilogy. I think the first Paradise Lost
Speaker 5: was basically keyed upon echel to finish off with saying
Speaker 5: Eckels saying that he was the West Memphis Boogeymans. But
Speaker 5: then the second and third of that franchise they point
Speaker 5: the finger at John mark Fires and then the third
Speaker 5: they pointed to Terry Hobbs. So they've got this alternate
Speaker 5: possible suspect. And unfortunately, Terry Hobbs was kind of the
Speaker 5: whipping boy at the latter half of their release, and
Speaker 5: they convinced all these people that Terry Hobbs was involved,
Speaker 5: and there's no way he could have been involved. But
Speaker 5: they had all this stuff come out about Terry Hobbs
Speaker 5: not saying they've seen the kids laugh. They had these
Speaker 5: two convicted criminals rapists say that Terry Hobbs had a
Speaker 5: family secret, and I think that that was captivating. I
Speaker 5: think that there is a narrative there that sympathetic people
Speaker 5: are attracted to, which is, you know this poor people
Speaker 5: getting railroaded by the system. And it didn't help that
Speaker 5: he was from the South. So all these Southern attorneys
Speaker 5: and everything were seen in that kind of frame of
Speaker 5: you know, it's a red state and there are a
Speaker 5: bunch of hillbillies bill Billy Lawier's. I didn't find any
Speaker 5: of that. I thought that they were people in a
Speaker 5: difficult situation doing the best they could. But I think
Speaker 5: that that narrative and the other thing that's interesting is
Speaker 5: that I think that the PR really worked. I think
Speaker 5: that if you have Johnny DApp and all these other
Speaker 5: people saying that they're innocent, you know, it's kind of
Speaker 5: a bullhorn celebrity. For whatever it's worth, people contend to
Speaker 5: believe celebrities. So all these people that came out, they
Speaker 5: just assumed that that was the story and it couldn't
Speaker 5: be farther from the truth. But you know, I think
Speaker 5: that that's what the potency of this of this case
Speaker 5: and how it got twisted in the minds of the
Speaker 5: public is really the celebrities in the PR. It was
Speaker 5: very effective. They have a very skilled PR guy named
Speaker 5: Surry Lonie Suri out of New York, And you know,
Speaker 5: it begs the question why does somebody whose innocent need
Speaker 5: a PR person? But yeah, I think that, you know,
Speaker 5: there there was a lot, there was a very strong
Speaker 5: PR element in this whole case. And I do mention
Speaker 5: that briefly in my book.
Speaker 4: How did the celebrities in Hollywood get involved in the
Speaker 4: first place? There was? Who was the contact and what
Speaker 4: was it exactly about that? How they contacted somebody in
Speaker 4: Hollywood that first person, sympathetic person. How was it they
Speaker 4: convinced him? What is it that they said? How did
Speaker 4: that come?
Speaker 5: That's a great question. You know, Echoles himself when he
Speaker 5: was in jail, he has a wife, he got married,
Speaker 5: and she seemed to be the intermediary between Echos and
Speaker 5: all these celebrities, and the celebrities got involved in kind
Speaker 5: of a trickle. I was my understanding. At least. What
Speaker 5: they say is that Johnny Depp called her and said
Speaker 5: you need help. So a lot of these people, but
Speaker 5: it seems like they all kind of banded together through
Speaker 5: their own network and to help him out. So it's
Speaker 5: not there's no real overt thing of these celebrities, but
Speaker 5: they held all of these banned meetings and raised tons
Speaker 5: of money. Like you said, it's ten to twenty million dollars.
Speaker 5: It's an incredible sum of money that was put to
Speaker 5: use to get these guys out of jail. But I
Speaker 5: don't think that there was really an over been steven
Speaker 5: of all these people at one point coming together. I
Speaker 5: think it was kind of a trickle like Henry Rollins
Speaker 5: got involved, and that got somebody else involved, and then
Speaker 5: Johnny Deupp got involved in By twenty five or twenty
Speaker 5: oh eight, there's just this huge horde of celebrities involved
Speaker 5: in the West Memphis three case.
Speaker 4: I tend to think, and I mentioned this to you
Speaker 4: earlier in the day, that I think that people in general,
Speaker 4: because they have never experienced a trial, because they've probably
Speaker 4: not read I can guaranteed not read entire transcripts, they
Speaker 4: wouldn't get through it. And they're used to seeing films
Speaker 4: and documentaries and news clips, so incomplete documentaries with a
Speaker 4: certain focus. Again, Making of a Murderer is a good
Speaker 4: example information coming from the defense. So do you think
Speaker 4: there might be a bias potentially and just the power
Speaker 4: of film versus in terms of the ability to outrage
Speaker 4: compared to a book, A book seems to be more reasonable.
Speaker 4: Do you think this is just a general ignorance and
Speaker 4: naivety about the law itself, which leads to a guy
Speaker 4: like Johnny Depp, who probably wasn't outsider once upon a time,
Speaker 4: he did have aspirations of being a musician, thinking geez,
Speaker 4: I can relate, maybe not thinking about it too much,
Speaker 4: but saying I can relate to being an outsider and
Speaker 4: just believing what he wanted to believe, taking pieces out
Speaker 4: of it that supported his idea of his own experiences.
Speaker 4: Do you think it's more about that otherwise respectable people.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'll give you two answers because I'll break it
Speaker 5: into what I think about people's perceptions and then Johnny Depp.
Speaker 5: But I think at first people's perceptions. I think it's
Speaker 5: the medium is the message. I do think that when
Speaker 5: people watch film, they're not getting the full time line event.
Speaker 5: They're seeing visual things and they're very manipulative. A lot
Speaker 5: of these documentaries do not properly document the case. They're
Speaker 5: very specific and biased. And you know, I think that
Speaker 5: the interest of HBO in this case was to make money.
Speaker 5: That's why they did, you know, made a franchise out
Speaker 5: of it. The second and third and they had to
Speaker 5: have a theme and in each additional film that would
Speaker 5: throw people in. So what do they do. They blame
Speaker 5: somebody else, They blame it on biers, they blame it
Speaker 5: on offs. It gets people to creates friction and creates controversy.
Speaker 5: So I think that, you know, that's really I think
Speaker 5: that the whole those videos and those paradise flows are
Speaker 5: really were the core reason why they got out. I
Speaker 5: really do. I think that propaganda was it. So I
Speaker 5: do think that, like you said, a book is a
Speaker 5: more measured means of relating information. I think that people
Speaker 5: generally won't go through any case and read those documents.
Speaker 5: I think that that's where that's why so many people
Speaker 5: have ignorant conclusions regarding the West Memphis three case. As
Speaker 5: far as Johnny Depp is concerned, I've done some research
Speaker 5: on Johnny Depp recently, and I think he's a fellow
Speaker 5: traveler just like Eccheles. I think they're both into magic.
Speaker 5: I believe that they're into the occult. And I think
Speaker 5: that Depp has shown in his films and in what
Speaker 5: he said in his personal life that that's what he's into.
Speaker 5: He's into what Echoes is. That's why you know, Eccles
Speaker 5: himself called Johnny Depp's brother. He believes Johnny Depp is
Speaker 5: like his brother. And you can see these videos of
Speaker 5: Eccles and depth at my YouTube side of Cold Investigations.
Speaker 5: I have all these videos of Eccles actually using deception
Speaker 5: of upon journalists who don't know the facts of the case,
Speaker 5: so they really don't respond. He's been on major shows
Speaker 5: where he's just straightly bald faced line. Particularly the one
Speaker 5: show was a CNN with and the host just asked
Speaker 5: him all these questions and Eckles. Eckles basically said that
Speaker 5: he had never been in a He's never been and
Speaker 5: died in crime for anything, when the book and all
Speaker 5: the evidence shows that he had been in under police
Speaker 5: he had been arrested one year before the murders. You know,
Speaker 5: so there's tons of information about it. But like going
Speaker 5: back to your question, I do think that you know
Speaker 5: what people watch, is it? I think that that the
Speaker 5: videos are can be deception, deception through a mission. You know,
Speaker 5: it's not that they don't include all the information, so
Speaker 5: people think they've got the full gist of the case.
Speaker 4: Now this isn't evidence in it itself, but you provide
Speaker 4: the evidence that there that he had this interest in
Speaker 4: in Satanism and Alistair Crowley and other you know founders
Speaker 4: of this, Anton Lavay. So he really was a serious Satanist.
Speaker 4: And with that you provide the information that that he
Speaker 4: knew of Crowley's talk of sacrifice, and there was very
Speaker 4: good indication that he was dabbling in that area of
Speaker 4: magic and spells and witchcraft and sacrifice. There was all.
Speaker 4: I wouldn't that he talked about human sacrifice as well.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, I wouldn't. I wouldn't call it dabbling. I still
Speaker 5: think that he's a very very serious occultist and magician.
Speaker 5: And when I read the book, like I had already
Speaker 5: read Croley and then I wrote wrote read Damien Eckles's
Speaker 5: Life after Death when he talks about the HGA Ritual,
Speaker 5: the Holy Guardian Angel Ritual, something specific to Alistair Crowley.
Speaker 5: When Alister Curley meant, I fell out of my chair.
Speaker 5: I literally was in shock that he knew the HGA ritual,
Speaker 5: which is Crowley's attempt to communicate with things. That's really
Speaker 5: what it is. So you know, he talks about going
Speaker 5: through the HGA prayer ritual three times today in his book.
Speaker 5: It's it's really remarkable and it indicates to me that
Speaker 5: Echles is not a dabbler. He right now he has
Speaker 5: he's kind of propselytizing magic. He wants to create a
Speaker 5: magical revolution, and he always says, I want to make
Speaker 5: the world a more magical place. Give magic, you know,
Speaker 5: to be people that will appreciate and change their lives.
Speaker 5: So I think that he is a true believer. In
Speaker 5: his Twitter feeds and his social media indicates that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's interesting that that would come up in the trial,
Speaker 4: that he would be blamed for that he would downplay
Speaker 4: and say that was a white witchcraft and he really
Speaker 4: did it was. It's incredible when you see Jason Baldwin
Speaker 4: and Jesse Muskelly, but very much Jason Baldwin and Damian Eccles,
Speaker 4: how young these They look like kids, and they did
Speaker 4: act like kids as well. They look very very innocent,
Speaker 4: and again that's movie making as well. But you it's
Speaker 4: it's interesting that someone would continue with this magic. Again, again,
Speaker 4: if it was white magic, you think that when he
Speaker 4: was released, he would pretend he was white magic, go
Speaker 4: that route. Instead, he's at least or more so exploring
Speaker 4: the darker element and the Crowley elements of Satanism, isn't
Speaker 4: he to this day o.
Speaker 5: Question, I think that you hit the nail right on
Speaker 5: the head of that statement, because I remarked the same thing.
Speaker 5: I would think that once he got out of jail,
Speaker 5: he would go back to his pseudo Buddhism, that he's
Speaker 5: interested in, the Shinto kind of Buddhism. But instead he
Speaker 5: goes right back into this magical He's still promoting it,
Speaker 5: he's practicing it. He's creating sigils and pictures in his
Speaker 5: art that are full of symbology. He actually made some
Speaker 5: drawing that was made of his blood and spit, blood,
Speaker 5: blood and saliva, you know, real kind of bodily fluid
Speaker 5: magical stuff. And then I saw him with this character
Speaker 5: by the name of Genesis p Orige, who really started
Speaker 5: his own kind of Crowley cult that was supposed to
Speaker 5: be the you know, was supposed to follow on after
Speaker 5: the work of Croley called the Croley's OTL, but his
Speaker 5: is called Topi. The it's about psychic youth, basically temple
Speaker 5: of psychic Youth that kind of carried on Crowley's Crowley's
Speaker 5: Torch for example. And Eckles is hanging out with him.
Speaker 5: He's in a movie with him called I R O.
Speaker 5: If you want to see something very creepy, you can
Speaker 5: go to my YouTube side of a Cold Cold Investigations
Speaker 5: and see them together talking about how New York is
Speaker 5: a dangerous place and people could get killed. So it's
Speaker 5: really creepy.
Speaker 4: What it was interesting, uh, is when Damian eccles takes
Speaker 4: the stand and you document what exactly did he what
Speaker 4: did he bring to that at that trial with his
Speaker 4: testimony on on on the stand. It's unusual to have
Speaker 4: a killer take the stand, so they must have thought
Speaker 4: that there was nothing else to lose by having him
Speaker 4: on there. So how did he conduct himself? What did
Speaker 4: what did the world learn from seeing him up on
Speaker 4: that stand?
Speaker 5: I think they saw him kind of dissemble, you know.
Speaker 5: They asked him questions about Crowley, They asked him about
Speaker 5: the pentagram on his chest. They asked him about the
Speaker 5: knives that he used to have. Now all the knives disappeared.
Speaker 5: One was found in the lake behind the trailer park
Speaker 5: where they live, where Jason Baldwin lived. But he really, uh,
Speaker 5: you know, he really tried to kind of dissemble the
Speaker 5: at least that's the way I interpreted about a lot
Speaker 5: of his his interests. You know, Davis, the prosecutor says,
Speaker 5: you know, you know, he asked him about his earlier
Speaker 5: statements that he had made right there on May seventh.
Speaker 5: He asked him about who would feel good about killing
Speaker 5: eight year olds? Is that part of your common sense philosophy?
Speaker 5: And then Echo says, I figured they must have if
Speaker 5: they did it, So it kind of showed that he
Speaker 5: was really cavalier about you know, a lot of the
Speaker 5: three eight year olds deaths, and you know, it showed
Speaker 5: that he he had the out look if some of
Speaker 5: you as a killer.
Speaker 4: At least in my opinion, What is it about Jesse
Speaker 4: mus Kelly in these supporters' minds besides the IQ, what
Speaker 4: was it that made it conclusive in their minds that
Speaker 4: there's just no way that Damian Eckles and Jason Baldwin
Speaker 4: and Jesse ms Kelly despite the confessions, because I'm sure
Speaker 4: they know that there are these confessions, they know of
Speaker 4: the trial and the jury's conclusions.
Speaker 5: Well, not everybody knows that they nobody, not everybody knows
Speaker 5: about the post conviction confessions. The pr team and Echols
Speaker 5: himself has done a good job of focusing on the
Speaker 5: one confession. So a lot of people don't know the
Speaker 5: total fact of the case. So I think that that's
Speaker 5: why miss Kelly can be thrown out. He was seen
Speaker 5: as incompetent and unintelligent, and that the fourteen post so
Speaker 5: called fourteen hour confession was bogus. And so when they
Speaker 5: believe those facts that really for these these statements that
Speaker 5: really aren't true, that's why they can throw Miskelly out
Speaker 5: and his initial first confession. You'd be surprised how many
Speaker 5: conversations I have with people who are West Memphis three supporters,
Speaker 5: and I've had many, many, many many conversations with them.
Speaker 5: How many only they know that there was one confession,
Speaker 5: that there was no post conviction confessions.
Speaker 4: What is their rationale for having first buyers and then
Speaker 4: now hobbs in their and their.
Speaker 5: I think in their eyesights, I think it points away
Speaker 5: from them and they actually can win the PR battle.
Speaker 5: They can win the PR public PR battle. And that
Speaker 5: was really kind of the unusual element of this case
Speaker 5: is that they really the West Memphis three three one
Speaker 5: the public battle. Most people believe that they were innocent
Speaker 5: for one reason. Und that's how they raised ten or
Speaker 5: twenty mo dollars So if you can tell the public
Speaker 5: that it was the suspicious stepfather, whether it's the stepfather
Speaker 5: Buyers or the stepfather Hobbs, you win the pr battle,
Speaker 5: not in court, but that pr battle can be leveraged
Speaker 5: with money to win in court. And that's why I
Speaker 5: think that that was their approach.
Speaker 4: Now, the dispute the satanic motive, So what would be
Speaker 4: the motive for either one of those stepfathers to do it.
Speaker 5: They've had a whole series of different things. One is
Speaker 5: rage killing. One is the most recent, which is laughable,
Speaker 5: is that Hobbs, one of his friends, and two other
Speaker 5: kids were engaged. They get this. They were engaged in
Speaker 5: some homosexual party in the woods and the three kids
Speaker 5: came upon them and then the all three of them
Speaker 5: killed the three kids. That's what the supporters have actually
Speaker 5: posited as what happened. So you know, that's that's kind
Speaker 5: of that's the that's their kind of, uh flame rationale
Speaker 5: really for the killings. That doesn't hold any water. And
Speaker 5: the other reality about Hobbes is that he was seen
Speaker 5: the whole night of the disappearance. He was walking around,
Speaker 5: he was with his wife, he was with us, He
Speaker 5: had seen Buyers, he was walking around in the woods.
Speaker 5: Nobody saw him wet. You had to be in that
Speaker 5: ditch with the the victims. You had to have gotten
Speaker 5: wet to cover up the current crime. And who was
Speaker 5: seen wet and money? Damien Eckles was seen wet in
Speaker 5: money by the truck wash that was over by the
Speaker 5: freeway about one hundred yards away from the mercy. He
Speaker 5: was seen by the whole Hollingsworth family. And people like
Speaker 5: to discount that, But why would a whole family with
Speaker 5: a wife and kids and husbands lie about seeing Eccles
Speaker 5: and possibly either Jason Baldwin or Eccles's girlfriend at the time,
Speaker 5: who was named Dominique Cheer.
Speaker 4: The the the fact of that Damien Eckles mentions that
Speaker 4: urine in the boy's mouths and that the pathologist finds
Speaker 4: evidence of urine in their stomachs later. Is that brought
Speaker 4: up at trial? Is that important or is that just
Speaker 4: important in your in your mind?
Speaker 5: It's important for me in my mind. It was not
Speaker 5: to my knowledge brought up at trial, but I thought
Speaker 5: that the it was. It was something that I learned
Speaker 5: from There's been a lot of writers about the West Memphis. Three.
Speaker 5: One was Blink on Crime, another's Trench Reynolds. But it
Speaker 5: was something I learned from Blink on Crime, and I
Speaker 5: think that doubt was the truth. She had looked through
Speaker 5: all of the court records as well, and I used,
Speaker 5: you know, some of her analyzes in my book, and
Speaker 5: I quoted her at my on my intro to the
Speaker 5: book as somebody I reference. So there's been a lot
Speaker 5: of other writers who you know, I wasn't alone. I
Speaker 5: wasn't the first one to really write about the case.
Speaker 5: I was the first one to kind of put together
Speaker 5: the occult aspect and elements of the case.
Speaker 4: Now you say you have I know you have supporters,
Speaker 4: and there they have their supporters. Are there any supporters
Speaker 4: that take their you know, dedication to Satan so seriously
Speaker 4: that they are angered at you? Is it is this
Speaker 4: like scientology tell us.
Speaker 5: A little bit about YEA, Well, that's a that's an
Speaker 5: amazing statement by you, because I think that supporters of
Speaker 5: Damien Eckles are basically as fevered and aggressive as scientologists.
Speaker 5: Blint Trench Reynolds has written a lot about Eccles and
Speaker 5: he calls echos followers eccles ologists play on scientologists, and
Speaker 5: he has actually had some very serious ramifications from speaking
Speaker 5: out against Eccles. He's he actually had somebody leave a
Speaker 5: bag full of experiment on his porch. He has been
Speaker 5: harassed online, and I've been harassed online as well. And
Speaker 5: I've actually, if you loo look at my book on Amazon,
Speaker 5: I've just been basically gangstalk by Echo supporters, telling lies
Speaker 5: and just trying to downplay my book and give me
Speaker 5: one star. So there has been some ramplications from from
Speaker 5: complaining against Echoes. And you know, he's a member of
Speaker 5: the OTO, He's an admitted member. One of the strange
Speaker 5: elements of the case was the supporters who kind of
Speaker 5: came up out of the middle of nowhere. There was
Speaker 5: a group of them that came out of la that
Speaker 5: are seen in some of the in some of the
Speaker 5: Paradise Lost trilogy talking with Echoes, and nobody really knows
Speaker 5: why they're supporters. Are they really have a secret hidden agenda?
Speaker 5: And one of the guys from Court TV asks one
Speaker 5: of these kind of fevered supporters, are you a member
Speaker 5: of a cult? You know, he actually came out and
Speaker 5: said are you a member of a cult? Which I
Speaker 5: thought was a very important question. I think the guy
Speaker 5: dodged it.
Speaker 4: Now, the your investigation into Alistair Crowley of course's instrumental
Speaker 4: in this for our audience, and in the book you
Speaker 4: do this as well. But I'd like you to tell
Speaker 4: us specifically why you think that Damien eckles and this
Speaker 4: crime itself demonstrates a again what we know the difference
Speaker 4: between what the FBI would call a ritualistic satanic murder.
Speaker 4: But tell us why you think this is can be
Speaker 4: described as having those satanic elements. Tell us again, in summary,
Speaker 4: all the things that you thought about the three murders
Speaker 4: of these young boys added up to a satanic crime.
Speaker 5: So they were tied, like we talked about earlier, they
Speaker 5: were tied in what was dornus chord magic with different knots,
Speaker 5: and in chord magic, different knots mean different things. So
Speaker 5: and they were tied in an unusual fashion which was
Speaker 5: very ritualistic. Also that there was wax that was found
Speaker 5: there from a candle. It was a very bloody scene
Speaker 5: that took place at a full moon. And also what
Speaker 5: I didn't know when I first wrote the book is
Speaker 5: there's something about drowning, about ritual sacrifice and water. And
Speaker 5: the boys were two of the boys were drowned. Also,
Speaker 5: the fact that one of the genitols was removed is
Speaker 5: consistent from what I've heard from a really intense ritual
Speaker 5: that takes place at the highest level of Satanism, involving blood.
Speaker 5: And you know, one of the boys, when his generaliss
Speaker 5: were removed, he lost all his blood, and that blood
Speaker 5: was there. You can see it in the court documents
Speaker 5: that the blood is all over the side of the
Speaker 5: bank where this took place. A luminol was evidence of
Speaker 5: all this blood. So I do think, you know, there
Speaker 5: could have been other people at that site when those
Speaker 5: boys were killed, which is a scary thought. But one
Speaker 5: of the other investigators, Jerry Driver, one of the early
Speaker 5: people who knew Echals, thought that there were other people there.
Speaker 5: At the night of the killing. There was a man
Speaker 5: who went to a low like literally right across the
Speaker 5: way from the killing to a bo Jangles restaurant, and
Speaker 5: he was covered in mud and blood. He sat in
Speaker 5: the bathroom there for the whole night. So there's indications
Speaker 5: that ritual, definite ritual elements are involved in this case.
Speaker 5: And Accos himself said that, you know, he liked he
Speaker 5: wants the complete book of witchcraft and I show him
Speaker 5: the book that his mother had driven him around the
Speaker 5: bookstores to help find him books and U. So I
Speaker 5: do think that there was there was a ritually involved murder.
Speaker 5: I do think that.
Speaker 4: It's interesting to you to talk they talk about. I
Speaker 4: think Jason Baldwin said he got alcohol from Damien's mother.
Speaker 4: I believe went and got him some whiskey and uh
Speaker 4: oh yeah. There was also talk about his girlfriend who
Speaker 4: changed her name to Domini for again for these kinds
Speaker 4: of reasons, and their family and its connection to at
Speaker 4: least they're dabbling in vamporism.
Speaker 5: Right, they're dabbling in blood drinking, just like echos Is.
Speaker 5: They write about vamporism and for a magazine. And you know,
Speaker 5: she casually said when she was asked that, you know,
Speaker 5: oh yeah, we drink blood. Mom drinks blood. Everybody drinks blood.
Speaker 5: So that was very common. And you know, there's evidence
Speaker 5: and elements within eccles family that his parents are involved
Speaker 5: in different types of witchcraft, you know, and they talked
Speaker 5: about that in West Memphis. In West Memphis, there was
Speaker 5: rumors about that. And strangely, the same year that Eccles
Speaker 5: was arrested, there was a murder that his mother and
Speaker 5: sister were involved in during a bonfire on the shore
Speaker 5: of the Mississippi River right there on the kind of
Speaker 5: eastern part of West Memphis. And so there's some very sketchy,
Speaker 5: very suspicious stuff. There was the death of somebody who's
Speaker 5: actually living with Eccles's mom.
Speaker 4: Interesting and also the community itself. An expert had come
Speaker 4: in in ninety two and said that there was you know,
Speaker 4: incredible satanic activity and that sort of a warning of
Speaker 4: this unusual activity in the area.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, I mean I think that there was all kinds
Speaker 5: of people coming in and talking. The police had taken
Speaker 5: a ton of, you know, statements from other people. They
Speaker 5: talked about, like I talked earlier, these rituals at Stonehenge,
Speaker 5: and that there were other people involved in that. There
Speaker 5: was somebody who they never found who was supposedly the
Speaker 5: head of the whole colts, and you know, they talked
Speaker 5: about you know, rapes that had taken place at Stonehenge.
Speaker 5: There was all types of dog carcasses, and nobody could
Speaker 5: really explain it. There just was a sense of fear.
Speaker 5: And what happens after these three guys are arrested. There's
Speaker 5: no more killings, no more child killings that ever happened
Speaker 5: in West Memphis.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Interesting, this is an incredible book upon it Nation.
Speaker 4: I could talk to you for another hour and a half,
Speaker 4: but I'm going to have to let you go. But
Speaker 4: I wanted to let people know the work that you've
Speaker 4: done before. So tell us a little of the titles
Speaker 4: of the books that you have before, and also give
Speaker 4: us all the information where people might be able to
Speaker 4: contact you and find out about your other work, and
Speaker 4: tell us about the ed Opferman Report that you're involved
Speaker 4: with as well. So give us a little bit of
Speaker 4: a plugs for yourself and also just where people might
Speaker 4: find out about your work and how they might be
Speaker 4: able to contact you for further interested.
Speaker 5: Say thanks, Dan. I wrote Profit of Evil, which is
Speaker 5: about Alister Croley. That was my first book, and then
Speaker 5: I wrote Abomination, and I just finished a new book
Speaker 5: called Children of the Beasts, which is about Crowley's followers,
Speaker 5: and that should be available the next week or two.
Speaker 5: You can find me on Facebook. I have a ton
Speaker 5: of information about echos on Facebook and at a cult
Speaker 5: investigation that YouTube, and I also have a website which
Speaker 5: is a cult investigation dot com. You can buy books
Speaker 5: there and you can reach me on any social media Twitter,
Speaker 5: an like that. And I'm also involved as a producer
Speaker 5: with the Ed Auperman Report, and he has some excellent
Speaker 5: interviews with people involved in the West Memphis three case, people,
Speaker 5: local people. One has had something like two hundred, two
Speaker 5: hundred and fifty thousand listens. It's pretty amazing. So if
Speaker 5: you are wanting to get some more information about the
Speaker 5: West Memphis three from a great source, check out the
Speaker 5: Ed Auperman Report.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a great show. I was just interviewed by
Speaker 4: Ed last week and I had a great time as
Speaker 4: a great interviewer and has a really fine program. I've
Speaker 4: went through the archives and discovered your program about this
Speaker 4: book of bonomation and the West Memphis three and just
Speaker 4: a fascinating case and a fascinating book. And I want
Speaker 4: to thank you very much William for coming on and
Speaker 4: sharing it with us this evening.
Speaker 5: Thank you very much, Dan, thank you so much, Thank
Speaker 5: you so much for having you all. My went fast,
Speaker 5: Thanks again.
Speaker 4: Thank you, good night.
Speaker 5: All right, take care tonight.
Speaker 3: Us to