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Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekenana Show.

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I am here with Curtis Yarvin. How are you doing

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pretty good? We are here to read a chapter that

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our mutual friend academic agent wrote in his populist delusion

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book about James Burnham.

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Speaker 2: Under is this under his real name? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: He wrote it under his real name is Nima Parbini

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on the cover. Yeah, it sounds sounds like it sounds

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like a gay Italian porn star.

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Speaker 2: But you know it does it? Does it? Maybe Indian

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Italian something like that.

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Speaker 1: But it's aptly titled Managerial Elites. And I'm just going

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to start reading and stop me whenever and comment when

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you think you can add, when you can add to it,

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because obviously I wanted to talk to you about Burnham

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because it's Burnham. All right, I'm gonna get this up

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in the screen, all right, Chapter seven, Managerial Elites. In

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the nineteen thirties, James Burnham had one of James Burnham

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had been one of the leading American exponents of Trotskyism.

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Speaker 2: He's Troutschism to the fourth I believe.

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Speaker 1: However, in the nineteen forties he broke decisively with Marxism

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and accepted the basic validity of the Italian elite theorists

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Mosca Pereto and Michelle's, to whom he had been introduced

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by Sidney Hook. In nineteen forty one he published his

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most famous book, The Managerial Revolution, not his guests, not

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his best book, but what's go on? I know you're

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trying to make one even the most popular. So in

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nineteen forty one he published his most famous book, The

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Managerial Revolution, which argued that Marxism had misconstrued the true

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nature of the revolution that had taken place. It was

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not the proletariat who overthrew Bushwick capitalism, but a new class,

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the managerial class.

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Speaker 2: So what always bugs me, what always bugs me about

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Burnham is that he doesn't understand the difference between a

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manager and a bureaucrat. I would say that essentially, in extremes,

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a manager is a commander and a bureaucrat is essentially

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a judge. And so there's sort of all throughout the

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man Duro Revolution, and it'll be like complaining about this

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as you go along. There's basically this confusion between these

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two very very different roles. Now it's a social class.

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We can sort of definitely say that they have something

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in common. But that's a separate point, so let's go on, okay.

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This book created an intellectual storm at the time of

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its publication, and was reviewed very widely, not only by

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academic journals but also by mainstream newspapers. Two years later,

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he followed it up with The Machiavellians, in which he

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explored the ideas of the elite theorists, together with George Sorell,

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and from which I have already drawn. Burnham was read

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by and profoundly influenced George Orwell, who was chilled by

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his amoral, scientific view of power. Burnham's outline of the

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managerial state inspired both Animal Farm and Nineteen eighty. His

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colly realist view was said to be the model for

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both the character O'Brien and the book The Theory and

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Practice of Holigarchical Collectivism by Emmanuel Goldstein in the latter.

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In the nineteen fifties and beyond, he became part of

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the conservative establishment in the USA, helping William F. Buckley

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found National Review and becoming a leading advocate of a

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tough line against the Soviet Union during the Cold War,

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to the extent that now Burnham is sometimes called the

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first neo conservative. Later in nineteen sixty four, he published

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a Suicide of the West, in which he in which

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he is severely critical of liberal attitudes and assumptions, which

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he argued are naive to the point of being suicidal.

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Anything there you want to keep going? No, keep going

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here we will focus on the core ideas. Not sure,

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I mean, let me step back for a second. I'm

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not sure. Naive is a rather simple word for the

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suicidal nature of these suicidal ideas. Let me just flag that.

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And I'm not really sure that's the way it's described

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in Suicide of the West either. But let's go on. Okay.

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Speaker 1: Here we will focus on the core ideas of the

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managerial revolution, rather than the entire body of his thought.

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It is obvious to anyone familiar with the elite theorists

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that Burnham had fully internalized the teachings of Mosca, Peretto

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and Michelle's. So as not to repeat ourselves, we will

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take their conclusions as granted and suffice only to show

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what is original in Burnham. In nineteen sixty Burnham wrote

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a short article called Managing the Managers, which condensed his

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core thesis to just five pages. This is very useful.

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This very useful summary will serve as a guideline throughout.

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Before starting, it is important to emphasize Burnham's explicitly Machiavelian frame.

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There is little optimism in Burnham's view of human nature.

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Of all the thinkers we are considering, he was the

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one who most emphatically and avowedly wore the mantle of Machiavellian,

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seeking to write only about what is is, not what

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ought to be. He embodied what Thomas Soul might call

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the constrained or tragic vision of man. Niccolo Macchiavelli once

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said that human appetites are insatiable, but the thing that

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they desire most is not wealth but power.

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Speaker 2: I mean, let me let me, let me let me

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just step in for there for a second. I mean

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you could almost say wealth is a form of power,

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and that money is the ability to tell other people

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what to do. The I think that you might actually

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perhaps a better comp for power here is sex, because

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it's sort of like both power and sex give you

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this feeling that you're literally your genes are likely to

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be passed on. I mean, the powerful, you know, the

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chief chimp, is like much more likely to reproduce than

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some like insol omega chimp, right, you know. And and

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so there's this sort of sense of power feeling really

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really good in a way, and because it feels really

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really good, it is frequently mistaken for something good. And yeah,

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I just a note on that.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Burnham's fundamental view of human nature was a Hobseene

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struggle driven by an almost Nietzschen will to power. Perhaps

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this is nowhere more evident than in Suicide of the West,

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when he argues that the liberal assumption that mass education

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would solve the problems of yesteryear is wrong headed. The

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nineteenth century liberals overlooked and the twentieth century liberals declined

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to face the fact that teaching everyone to read opens

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minds to propaganda and indoctrination, at least as much as

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to truths.

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Speaker 2: A step ahead to the next one, no one truly

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strives for the public good, but rather seeks to increase

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power and prestige for himself and his click. Okay, that's

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a vaguely correct model, but I think that it's sort

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of it's not really necessarily psychologically or true in a way.

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It's like when I think of, you know, the immortal

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question that we can never know the answer to. You know,

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what are progressives thinking? It's like asking, you know, Vickenstein

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had this thing where he was like, you know, if

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a lion could speak, would we understand it? You know?

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And and sometimes you know, I there's there's a sort

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of gap there that kind of sunders you know, the

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sort of two kinds of thinking, and I see it.

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It's it's a sort of very like it's it's of

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course narrower than the gap between sort of the person

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and the lion. But there's basically a way you can

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sort of everyone has a bit of that inside them,

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and the sort of the best way I can find

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understand it is to sort of think about sort of

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rural thoughts to kind of activate you that still make

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you like warm in a way, like there must be

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some Just find one, find one, Find a liberal thought

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where you're just like, oh, maybe it's something that's actually good.

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Sometimes these things are actually good. There's plenty of lib

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stuff that's actually good, and you know, just find find

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one that feels like really good and just like kind

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of you know, feel that thought in your body, man,

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you know, and the and that's sort of the feeling

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of being a lib and it's sort of like the

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feeling of you know, changing the world, making an impact

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on the world, doing a good thing for the world,

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doing a good thing for people like you. Thus power

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and prestige for himself and his click is sort of relevant.

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It's like, you're not really when you're striving for your click,

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you know, even sort of in an unconscious way, you're

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just like, we are good. The things that make us

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feel good are good, and so you're basically you know,

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you're you're. I mean, prestige is just status. It's the

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thing that gets chimpanzees laid. Power is a little more

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you know, Prestige is one of the benefits of power,

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but one of the you know, the definition of power

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is sort of a little more obscure. I think that

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one way to say, to rewrite this sentence, to sort

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of make it ring a bell with everyone out there

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trying to write their college application essay and decide what

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they mean, you could say, you know, no one truly

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strives for the public good, but rather seeks to matter,

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you know, like, and it's it's sort of that sense

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of mattering that is what the chief chimp matters, that

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make it chimp. You know, one day they went on

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a raid and somebody lost track of them and they

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never saw them again, and it was like three days

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before the rest of the chimp's noticed. Right, but the

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chief chimp right matters, right, you know, and that's a

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himpoo matters. And so that sort of sense of kind

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of translating what you know, these two sentences kind of

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mean and how they produce what we know in love

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is progressivism today is sort of you know, it's not

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the sort of Burnham is kind of wrong about any

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of this stuff. It's that he's sort of he doesn't

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go quite deeply enough into like what is actually going

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on here, How are these people thinking, how are you

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know what is sort of in the minds of these people?

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And what's in the minds of these people is that,

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you know, the sense that if you matter in some way,

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then there is an idea that mattering in this way

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is sort of connected to good. Let's say, for example,

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that the way in which you wanted to matter was

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to you know, deface all, you know, statues of Martin

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Luther King's one way of mattering, and then another way

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of mattering is to deface all the statues of Roberty Lee,

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and you know, you can feel that the person who

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it's it's even you and I are as conservatives, are

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much emotionally closer to the person who deface the statue

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of Roberty Lee. It's easier to see in a way,

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it's easier to understand that person, and that person obviously

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is much more important because those statues get defaced and

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the other ones don't get defaced. So you know the

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sense that basically, you know, if you look at what

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teaching everyone to read opens the minds to what teaching

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everyone to read basically creates a marketplace of information for

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the information that these minds want to see and hear.

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And these minds want to see and hear things in

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general that make them feel like they the audience matter,

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you know, Slava Ukraini, Right, you know, basically, you know,

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suddenly it's not a baseball game anymore. It's not the world.

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It's a war. But you know, the sort of somewhere

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in today's like understanding of politics, like you know, the

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war in the Ukraine, and you know the World Cup

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and Eurovision kind of all blend together in a way.

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They're all sort of this like kind of fan spectacle thing.

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And so the sense that basically the ideas that blossom

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in these minds like the bacteria that turn into you know,

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big blobby things on your plate of agar, the ideas

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that blossom in in this this you know, basically fertile

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science experiment that you've created by you know, letting telling

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everyone they can read anything and teaching them in fact

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to do so. Is you know what blossoms in that

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is basically ideas that feel like believing in this idea

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helps you matter. And of course this is the same

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thing as like Mosco's political formula, because then you can

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basically say, okay, you know, it matters that I'm like

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rejecting Roberty Lee. It matters that I'm defacing this statue

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because it will help my African American countrymen lead a

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more dignified life, you know, by remembering that these statues

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of their oppressors are not among them or something you

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have that some connection to something that's good, that's done.

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And you know, at the end of this, basically everyone

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who knew Haven is going to Yale, you know, and

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the or something like that, right, you know, And and

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so this connection the thing about psychologically feeling the need

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to matter. Is that this connection can be a little diffuse.

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Nobody really reality checks it. Nobody wants to know if, hey,

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maybe spray painting a statue of Roberty Lee won't do

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anything for black lives at all, right, you know, but

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that's sort of that possibility. You know. It's like when

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when he says there's little optimism in Burnham's view of

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human nature, he's talking about basically the lack of the

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sort of rosy glow that kind of leads from these

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things that are conventionally said to like matter in a

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good way, to like what you can do and what

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you can believe, and like you know, and and sort

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of the reason that I go kind of deeply into

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this is that I think it underscores sort of how

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hard the problem is and how you know, it's sort

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of intrinsic, not just to quote liberalism in this kind

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of stalinist progressive sense than we have, but really essential

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to classical liberalism, to liberalism in the nineteenth century of

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the uh, you know, view of the word. This is

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a disease that afflicts the free and open marketplace of ideas.

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And so yeah, that's my that's my little interjection there.

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And when I was reading Suicide of the West, I

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made sure every time that I read the word liberal

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to make sure to put a classic in front of it.

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M M, because he was something there's something to be

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said for the coinage shit lib. I mean, it's really

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rude and disrespectful and unpleasant. But there's sort of a

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reason it's kind of caught on. It's this like sort

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of directly fecal binding, like I will not let this

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word twist loose from my grasp, you know, I will

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accompany it with the most disgusting substance on earth. I

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don't know. It's you know, it's for those who like

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that sort of thing. It's the sort of thing they like.

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But I'm going please.

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Speaker 1: Live hard work for a while. Shit lib works a

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lot better now, it will be it will be around

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a lot longer. Yeah, all right, sorry, John.

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Speaker 2: No problem.

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Speaker 1: Burnham thus harbored no illusion that a particular form of

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society agrarian, theocratic, or feudal, much less socialist, liberal or democrat,

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could adequately adequately restrain the appetite for power. Like Mosca,

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he recognized the need and utility of a political formula

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which can apparently motivate men by appealing to their sentiments.

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But like Peretto, he essentially viewed all ideologies as thinly

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veiled justifications for the interests of power. However, unlike Peretto,

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he saw psychology as the decisive factor. Burnham retrained, perhaps

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retained perhaps from his Marxist origins and economic emphasis. As

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we shall see.

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Speaker 2: Obviously, I also see psychology as a decisive factory.

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Speaker 1: Where the analysis of power and the ruling class has

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conveniently rested in the government itself. Burnham saw the managerial

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class operating across the so called public private divide and

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in every large organization. In effect, the bureaucrats who emerge

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in Moscow and Michelle's through the iron law of oligarchy,

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come to control every institution and then come to recognize

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each other as an identifiable class with common interests, with

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common skills, interests, beliefs and goals. All right, I think

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that basically, if you're looking for a parallel and admittedly

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this is falling down in the present sort of military,

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if you're looking for a parallel between Just like Burnham

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was an intellectual, he did not know anything about the

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business world or how business works or any of that stuff.

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It was basically as far from him as like the

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Vampire of Japan. And so you know, understanding basically that

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you know it's true that you can get sort of

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so called bureaucracy. You can get outposts of very bureaucratic

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bureaucracy and like HR departments and so forth in the

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private sector. You can also have things in the public

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sector which are run basically by command. But the main

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difference is basically organizations that run on a command true

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top down basis verus versus organizations that run on the

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basis of procedure. And so if you basically look at

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essentially the essential principle of capitalism when it's functioning normally

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is on the command basis, and the essential principle of

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bureaucracy is the procedural basis. Now, the procedures can be

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manipulated and bent in various ways to actually sort of

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exert kind of personal power or like little mafias do things,

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but basically, at least the way it's supposed to operate

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in a procedural, basically organization, everyone who works there has

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some procedure that they're supposed to be doing. If they

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encounter an exception that they don't understand that doesn't fit

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in their procedure, they kick it up to their quote manager.

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But their manager is not a commander. Their manager is

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an exception handler. And so when weirder and weirder things happen,

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it goes all the way up to the you know,

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the whoever the desire is. And in the federal government

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that ball can go all the way up to the president.

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The president is making a decision, but you might as

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well be a magic eight ball, and those can make

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decisions to in the private sector, when you're a commander

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or in the military, in an effective military, at least

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when you're a commander, you have what it's called mission orders,

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which says, basically, you're a captain, you want to take

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you know, you want your lieutenant to take a hill.

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You say, lieutenant, take that hill. You don't say how

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he takes the hill.

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Speaker 2: Heishi or they or are the reserve takes the hill.

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You You just say take the hill. And that basically

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that top down command structure allows sort of every every

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commander to have essentially absolute authority within their specific domain,

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which creates much much more flexibility, and it creates it

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creates a different mindset, so that basically if you go

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if you go to Prida, I guess we're not going

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to deeply into preto here, but you know, he has

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this theory of residues of basically sort of the lion

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personality and the fox personality, and you know, the the

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lion the lion is commander and the fox's bureaucrat. And

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so basically when he uses this word manager in the

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Mannery Drill Revolution, he's kind of confusing kind of lion

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roles with fox roles. Now, as for being an identifiable class,

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there's clearly this sort of college educated upper class thing

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which is like a thing, right and uh the like,

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and it certainly is trained by the same institutions, and

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it sort of gets the same kind of recycled ideology.

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But really, like you know, to say, the active heads

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of the bureaus are the managers in government the same

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and nearly the same in training function, skills, and habits

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of thought as the managers in the industry is basically

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his central thesis in this book. And unfortunately his central

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thesis is just played wrong. Okay, all right, let's keep going.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I'm fine with that.

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Speaker 3: I mean you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're here to talk about Burnham because I don't

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think anyone I know knows more about him than you.

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Speaker 2: So yeah.

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Speaker 1: In the new form of society, this is quoting now.

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In the new form of society, sovereignty is localized and

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administrative bureaus. They proclaim the rules, make the rules, issue

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the decrees. The shift from parliament to bureaus occurs on

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a world scale. The actual directing and administrative work of

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the bureaus is carried on by a new man, a

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new type of man. It is specifically the managerial type.

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The active heads of the bureaus are the managers in government,

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the same or nearly the same in training, function, skills,

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habit of thought as the managers in industry.

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Speaker 2: See if he pulls like every time, he's sort of

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constantly spicing up his discourse by drawing this kind of

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broad connection, which really fails, you know. I think in

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its time, to be fair, the corporate middle manager and

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the career civil servant were probably a little more similar

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to each other. Perhaps it was an age of big

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you know, big staging at companies and like very dynamic.

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Young bureaucracies may look a little more like each other,

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but you know, if he drew lines from the civil

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servants to the professors who educate them, he'd be drawing

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I think, much more defensible lines, but please go on. Okay.

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Speaker 1: Thus, power seems as if it is decentralizing, but in

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fact is concentrating and consolidating itself in a more diffuse

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way across every possible institution. Note in society, if we

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use Juvenile's idea of power centers being like castles, which

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center power needs to capture, central power needs to capture,

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the managerial class quietly takes over government while capturing every

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castle to create an extremely broad central power base which

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has the appearance of being made up of disparate and

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separate spheres of influence. When Burnham talks about managers in

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industry and managers in government, it brings to mind the

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corporate middle manager and the career civil servant, but he

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actually has in mind a much wider range of people

382
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than that. Senior executives at board level. At board level

383
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in corporations, for example, the CEO are very often managers

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paid employees beyond the mid ranking civil servants, top level

385
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advisors of every stripe, senior diplomats, communications directors, and so on,

386
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are all managers, even the politicians themselves who sit in

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parliamentary democracies. We might picture someone like Tony Blair or

388
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Angela Merkel take on a distinctly managerial air. However, the

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scope of the yeah, yeah, get.

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Speaker 2: Say the next one.

391
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Speaker 1: Okay, However, the scope of the managerial class is wider

392
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still than this. It is not simply those who work

393
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in and around corporations and government, but in all major

394
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institutions across society.

395
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Speaker 2: May keep going yeah, I mean no, let me you know,

396
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So what we're really identifying here in a way is

397
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sort of what forms a class is kind of two

398
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things and or three things. It's it's or four things. Well,

399
00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:27,720
there's race, let's not get into that. But then there's

400
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basically parental inculcation of traditions, and there's institutional inculcation of traditions,

401
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:43,880
and there's work. So you know, what's common basically across

402
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:48,079
this class is, and what's to a great extent managed

403
00:24:48,079 --> 00:24:53,400
to homogenize this class is simply the modern American educational program,

404
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:58,079
where basically, in order it is true that to get

405
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:01,599
you know, whether it's a private sector you know, a

406
00:25:02,079 --> 00:25:06,119
job or a government job, you have to basically go

407
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to the same institutions and basically excel at the same institutions,

408
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and so basically the ideology or sort of the you

409
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,880
know even just sort of the idea of like how

410
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:25,599
to do things that is prevalent in those institutions becomes

411
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a thing. I mean, you know what people will find

412
00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:32,440
often this may have changed since since my younger days,

413
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but you know, the like usual experience in a top

414
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:43,279
quality company of like a new high level CS grad

415
00:25:43,599 --> 00:25:45,559
is that they sort of usually had to be taught

416
00:25:45,559 --> 00:25:48,240
which way which end is up, and if they were

417
00:25:48,279 --> 00:25:51,200
a PhD, they had to basically be taught which end

418
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:57,680
is down, and like the PhDs required much more retraining.

419
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So you know, it's it's like there is still this

420
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,759
commonality in this sort of you know, these institutions create

421
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:11,599
social groups. There's the group of people who graduated from

422
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,720
the school of that school or whatever school. So you know,

423
00:26:14,799 --> 00:26:17,599
to sort of overlook that as a class I mean,

424
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that is a kind of classforming thing. It's just that

425
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,559
sort of the kind of tasks of being I mean,

426
00:26:25,839 --> 00:26:28,559
the reason why being a bureaucrat is like being a

427
00:26:28,599 --> 00:26:31,680
professor is that they're sort of both kind of fox positions.

428
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They're both positions which work by exercising influence rather than

429
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:41,119
sort of command and decision and sort of all of

430
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:44,920
the lion prince, you know. Basically, one of the things

431
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,799
that's often cited is kind of the downfall of the

432
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:51,000
late Roman Empire was that it had this rigid separation

433
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between being the career of being a general and the

434
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:57,319
career of being a bureaucrat, and a lot of bureaucrats

435
00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:02,079
and they were all quite unmanly, and you know, there's

436
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:05,200
no one like Caesar who is a general, a writer

437
00:27:05,559 --> 00:27:11,240
and an administrator. And so when you have this separation

438
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:16,000
between basically lion careers in fox careers and bureaucrats are

439
00:27:16,039 --> 00:27:20,559
all sort of very very bored foxes, basically, you know,

440
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:27,079
you have a problem. But yeah, I think that's the

441
00:27:27,079 --> 00:27:29,599
you know, the lion fox separation. It's just what Burnham

442
00:27:29,599 --> 00:27:30,960
miss is. So I'm sorry, I'll.

443
00:27:30,799 --> 00:27:34,359
Speaker 1: Stop at chapter No, that's good, you're good. Chapter three

444
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,759
on this I already recorded with Aaron McIntyre, who you

445
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:41,839
met when we did a stream together. Yeah, and we

446
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:45,519
went he goes deep into deep into foxes and lions there.

447
00:27:45,559 --> 00:27:47,759
So what you're talking about is not going over anyone's

448
00:27:47,799 --> 00:27:50,400
head if they listen to that episode chapter three.

449
00:27:50,559 --> 00:27:52,480
Speaker 2: So all right, excellent, let's get going.

450
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Speaker 1: It is worth quoting Burnham at length here. Within the

451
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huge trade unions, a similar managerial officialdom, the labor beureauocracy

452
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:04,599
consolidates its position as an elite. The elite is sharply

453
00:28:04,599 --> 00:28:08,720
distinguished in training, income, income habits, and outlook from the

454
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:13,599
ordinary union member. What's great is that these people still exist.

455
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Speaker 2: But I don't think they actually do anything at all,

456
00:28:15,519 --> 00:28:17,000
So maybe it's a third kind of career.

457
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,920
Speaker 1: The trends extends to the military world, the academic world,

458
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:26,880
the nonprofit foundations, and even auxiliary organizations of the un

459
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:30,440
of the un armies. Of the un armies are no

460
00:28:30,519 --> 00:28:34,759
longer run by fighting captains, but by Pentagon style managerial bureaucracy.

461
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Speaker 2: That's a bit more true than it was eighty years ago.

462
00:28:40,559 --> 00:28:51,039
Speaker 1: But within the universities, proliferating administrators have risen about deliberating

463
00:28:51,119 --> 00:28:58,319
administrators in the forties. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Proliferating administrators have

464
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:02,319
risen above students, teaching, the teaching faculty, alumni, and parents

465
00:29:02,519 --> 00:29:03,519
their power positions.

466
00:29:03,599 --> 00:29:05,839
Speaker 2: This isn't this is this isn't. This isn't. From the man.

467
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,519
This is much later. This is because you wouldn't be

468
00:29:08,599 --> 00:29:12,599
talking with the United Nations in the middle, right, right, right, Okay, yeah,

469
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:14,839
this is still this is probably written in the sixties,

470
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:15,160
I think.

471
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:19,279
Speaker 1: But well, this is from the from Managing the Managers.

472
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He mentioned that the one that he wrote in nineteen

473
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:25,720
sixty to update to consolidate and do a consolidation. So yeah, yeah,

474
00:29:25,759 --> 00:29:28,319
all right, and yeah I noticed that there's.

475
00:29:28,119 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 2: Still there's still forty one. Yeah, yeah, there's still been

476
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:38,160
some proliferation of administrators since nineteen sixty one. Statistics will show.

477
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:42,359
Speaker 1: I'm sorry going, The Great nonprofit foundations have been transformed

478
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:46,799
from expressions of individual benevolence into strategic basis of managerial

479
00:29:46,839 --> 00:29:51,039
administrative power. And I should read everybody. Everyone should read

480
00:29:51,599 --> 00:29:55,160
Renee Wormser's foundations, their power and influence. He was the

481
00:29:55,279 --> 00:29:58,519
chief council of the only Congressional committee that ever actually

482
00:29:58,559 --> 00:30:02,839
investigated the Great Foundation. Please keep going, I'm writing that down.

483
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:09,000
I'll the worm Sir W. Worm Seer. United Nations has

484
00:30:09,039 --> 00:30:12,279
an international echelon of managers entrenched in the secretariat.

485
00:30:12,319 --> 00:30:15,960
Speaker 2: When was the last time you heard about the United Nations?

486
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:19,599
Isn't that amazing? It's still there. It's just like ticking

487
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,880
along sitting there in Turtle Bay. But like, basically it

488
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:26,000
used to be so relevant. You had these fiery speeches

489
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:28,759
at the United Nations. I believe the Chief Justice of

490
00:30:28,799 --> 00:30:32,640
the US actually stepped down Arthur Goldberg to become the

491
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:35,400
ambassador to the UN felt to be a very high

492
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:39,599
profile position. And it's just like avoid it's incredible. But

493
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:41,960
as far as I know, they're still spending money and

494
00:30:42,039 --> 00:30:43,799
parking their cars illegally, but.

495
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 1: And taking up really expensive friggin riverfront property right there.

496
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:52,319
Speaker 2: I know, I know it could be given to the

497
00:30:52,359 --> 00:30:59,079
home of the underprivileged, but that's exactly what I was thinking, exactly,

498
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:03,119
turn Turtle Bay into a kind of a Kowloon walled

499
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:08,960
city of homelessness. Would see, like, what is the record

500
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:11,720
for how many you can pack into you know, I'm

501
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,519
sorry going Actually.

502
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 1: There are fairly obvious parallels in the managerial structures of

503
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:22,359
the verse institutional fields. For example, for example, managers in

504
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:26,319
business are to stockholders as labor managers are to union members,

505
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:31,119
as government managers are to voters, as public school administrators

506
00:31:31,119 --> 00:31:35,000
are to tax payers, as university and private school administrators

507
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:40,880
are to tuition payers. And fun contributors. Yeah, it's just

508
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:47,279
very going. When Burnham was writing, the managerial class had

509
00:31:47,319 --> 00:31:50,240
not fully consolidated its powers, so the truth of what

510
00:31:50,319 --> 00:31:53,319
he is saying was not readily visible to all but

511
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:58,759
the most astute observers. Detractors would often focus on irrelevant

512
00:31:58,839 --> 00:32:02,599
details and incorrect predations while missing the bigger picture. At

513
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:05,079
the time of writing, in the twenty twenties, when all

514
00:32:05,079 --> 00:32:08,119
these organizations appear to speak with one voice when none

515
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,319
dare to disagree, the truth of Burnham's analysis appears so

516
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:14,960
obvious as to seem trite. In fact, the scope now

517
00:32:15,079 --> 00:32:19,039
extends beyond what even he envisioned, to encompass practically every

518
00:32:19,119 --> 00:32:20,839
major church denomination too.

519
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 2: Do they still have, you know, denominations or is it

520
00:32:24,519 --> 00:32:27,039
just all like the Church of like pride flag?

521
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 1: Well, I mean yeah, technically legally there was from my

522
00:32:33,119 --> 00:32:35,240
research back in way back in two thousand and one.

523
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,839
In two thousand and one, there was fifty thousand Protestant

524
00:32:38,839 --> 00:32:42,240
denominations registered in the United States that had to double

525
00:32:42,319 --> 00:32:43,160
their triple by now.

526
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:48,039
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, yeah, well, well, and they're all lit

527
00:32:49,039 --> 00:32:51,400
and well, at least you know, three quarters of them

528
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:54,119
are our pride flag in the other quarter is QAnon.

529
00:32:54,319 --> 00:32:58,400
But sorry, going pretty much these are true religions, but

530
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:05,680
I exaggerate, this is exaggerations. I mean, it's only twenty

531
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:07,920
twenty two. It's only twenty twenty two.

532
00:33:09,799 --> 00:33:12,799
Speaker 1: Even the Holy Roman Empire has been paused, all right.

533
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,799
So indeed, where Marxists believed that the decisive factor in

534
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:19,319
history and society is ownership of the means of production,

535
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:23,960
Burnham argued that the relationship between ownership and control has

536
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,640
been severed due to the rise of limited liability corporations,

537
00:33:28,079 --> 00:33:32,400
which SCA Bond shows were always illegal creation rather than

538
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:33,720
a facet of the free market.

539
00:33:33,839 --> 00:33:35,519
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't I don't know what rat hole

540
00:33:35,559 --> 00:33:38,000
we're going down here, But like I feel like basically

541
00:33:38,039 --> 00:33:41,359
Burnham knows about as much about limited liability corporations as

542
00:33:41,359 --> 00:33:45,240
he does about like, you know, deliver of the lobster.

543
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:51,319
I mean, but like, I mean, I think it's green deliver,

544
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:58,319
But I yeah, I just yeah, anyway, Yeah, let's let's

545
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:01,160
let's let them say more about public corporations and then

546
00:34:01,359 --> 00:34:03,240
have have my opinion there.

547
00:34:03,119 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 1: Okay, So quoting the divorce of control or power or

548
00:34:08,199 --> 00:34:11,239
power from ownership has been due in large parts of

549
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:15,239
the growth of public corporations. So long as a single person, family,

550
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,559
or comparatively small group held a substantial portion of the

551
00:34:18,599 --> 00:34:21,639
common shares of a corporation, the legal owners could control

552
00:34:21,679 --> 00:34:25,360
its affairs, even if they no longer actually conducted the business.

553
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:29,119
The operating managers were functioning as their accountable agents. But

554
00:34:29,199 --> 00:34:32,280
when the enterprise became more vast in scope, and at

555
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:35,920
the end at the same time the stock certificates became

556
00:34:36,519 --> 00:34:40,280
spread in small bundles among thousands of persons, the managers

557
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,880
were gradually released from subordinations to the nominal owners. The

558
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:48,199
facto control passed for the most part to non owning managements.

559
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:49,840
Speaker 2: All Right, all right, all right, all right, all right,

560
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:52,840
hold up, hold up, hold up. So you know, basically,

561
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:59,039
I feel like there's something that this motherfucker does not

562
00:34:59,199 --> 00:35:04,960
know about business. And I've worked in a number of businesses,

563
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:10,239
I've done business, I've started businesses of owned businesses, and

564
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:14,880
and like there's something really basic the of the nature

565
00:35:15,559 --> 00:35:17,920
of business. And I think, not not just James Burnham,

566
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:21,599
but like most people like fundamentally at a certain level,

567
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:27,920
just don't understand, which is, they don't understand the purpose

568
00:35:29,039 --> 00:35:34,599
of a business, like the purpose of a business, and

569
00:35:34,639 --> 00:35:38,559
really it's like any business. The purpose of a business,

570
00:35:38,639 --> 00:35:40,119
I know, this will come as a shot, is to

571
00:35:40,119 --> 00:35:44,159
make money, like you know so so. And what's important

572
00:35:44,159 --> 00:35:49,039
about this relative to this question of ownership is that

573
00:35:49,119 --> 00:35:54,639
the whole concept of if you imagine businesses having like

574
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:59,320
other like nefurious purposes. Let's say you pretended that your

575
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:03,039
purpose was to make money, but your real purpose was

576
00:36:03,159 --> 00:36:09,599
to conquer Internex Mexico. You know, then you'd be like

577
00:36:09,639 --> 00:36:12,039
sort of pretend or turn the world into paper clips

578
00:36:12,079 --> 00:36:16,119
another fine Internet example. You know, you'd be pretending to

579
00:36:16,119 --> 00:36:19,320
make money, but you'd actually be engaged in this other thing.

580
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,880
And presumably this other thing would be the direction of

581
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:25,760
the owners. So the owners, you'd have a little cabal

582
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:28,559
of people of this company that pretended to be mining

583
00:36:28,559 --> 00:36:31,559
gold but was actually plotting the invasion of Baja. Let's

584
00:36:31,599 --> 00:36:34,719
just say Baha, you know, and they would be doing

585
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:38,199
gold mining things, but also like bah and invading things, right,

586
00:36:38,519 --> 00:36:41,840
you know. Whereas the thing is that every company does

587
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,920
something different, Every company has a different sort of purpose.

588
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:47,400
In companies in the olden days used to be defined

589
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:51,000
by corporate charters that limited them to a specific purpose.

590
00:36:51,039 --> 00:36:55,239
Anything else was held ultra virius or out of bounds.

591
00:36:56,119 --> 00:36:58,159
That concept is something of a dead letter. Your gold

592
00:36:58,199 --> 00:37:00,920
mining company that starts selling dental flaws. But even if

593
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:03,760
it starts selling dental flaws, its purpose is selling the

594
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:07,000
flaws will be to make money. So what makes a

595
00:37:07,079 --> 00:37:12,760
company work really well is the reason. It doesn't matter

596
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:17,079
who the owners are or how many bundles amongst thousands

597
00:37:17,079 --> 00:37:22,360
of persons. The you know, the ownership is spread among

598
00:37:22,679 --> 00:37:25,559
the interest of all of the owners is completely aligned.

599
00:37:25,599 --> 00:37:27,920
They're not cared to change the world or like create

600
00:37:28,039 --> 00:37:32,039
environmental sustainability or whatever. They're here to make money. And

601
00:37:33,159 --> 00:37:37,039
because they're all here for exactly the same purpose, it's

602
00:37:37,119 --> 00:37:40,519
like a laser, it's like coherent light. Their purpose is

603
00:37:40,559 --> 00:37:42,840
completely aligned. I've always you ever seen it like a

604
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:45,599
European company in like Spain or something, and instead of

605
00:37:45,639 --> 00:37:47,559
you know, co or ink after it has the letters

606
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:49,760
say do you know what essays stand for?

607
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:50,320
Speaker 3: No?

608
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:54,280
Speaker 2: What is the stand for? It stands for anonymous society,

609
00:37:56,119 --> 00:38:00,559
and it's a what a corporation is is an anonymous society.

610
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:03,119
So first of all, it doesn't matter who the fucking

611
00:38:03,159 --> 00:38:06,639
owners are, Okay, they're they're just the people who get checks,

612
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:09,119
you know, and the only way it matters is basically

613
00:38:09,519 --> 00:38:12,000
if they look at the company and they're like, something

614
00:38:12,559 --> 00:38:15,679
is not going on right here. We're not invting ba Well,

615
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:18,400
forget the baha. No, this is we're not mining enough gold,

616
00:38:18,599 --> 00:38:22,039
like maybe the CEO is stealing half the gold, and

617
00:38:22,079 --> 00:38:24,280
then they can step in and do something. So the

618
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:26,920
second thing to understand about corporate governance is that it

619
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:29,480
has two layers. It has a board and it has

620
00:38:29,519 --> 00:38:34,280
the shareholders. The shareholders elect the board. This election is

621
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:39,000
almost always completely meaningless. Actually, if even the board is

622
00:38:39,079 --> 00:38:42,639
involved in managing the company, something is probably fucked. And

623
00:38:42,679 --> 00:38:45,280
if the shareholders are involved, there's like war in heaven

624
00:38:45,559 --> 00:38:48,559
or like a proxy battle or like something is just fucked.

625
00:38:49,039 --> 00:38:51,159
And you know, but in a smaller company and a

626
00:38:51,199 --> 00:38:53,840
little bitty company like the kind I've been involved, it

627
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:57,400
means if the shareholders involved, it means something is fucked. Okay,

628
00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:00,000
So in the normal and even if the board is involved,

629
00:39:00,119 --> 00:39:02,239
something as fucked. The role of the board is really

630
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:06,239
should be like what does Mark Zuckerberg's board do? Like, Actually,

631
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:08,800
Mark Zuckerberg is an absolute ruler. His board has no

632
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:11,400
power over him at all. So basically they just meet

633
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:16,039
and say hi, Mark. You know, nice job. Maybe they

634
00:39:16,039 --> 00:39:19,199
have some thoughts and views, but it doesn't matter. You know,

635
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:24,159
Google's board. What's the name of the president of Google,

636
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:31,039
Sandeep or something. Yeah, yeah, and he Google's board actually

637
00:39:31,039 --> 00:39:38,800
has control over him. But you know, obviously he's doing

638
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,920
a fine job. Stock keeps going up, revenue keeps going in,

639
00:39:42,159 --> 00:39:45,400
web keeps getting shittier, So it's fine. But I mean,

640
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:48,719
the web keeps getting shittier is an effect I'm convinced

641
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:51,199
of Google. But it's not Google's intent. It's not like

642
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:55,400
invading It's an externality. It's not an intentional externality like

643
00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:59,239
invading Baha. So the thing is basically, in a normal company,

644
00:39:59,519 --> 00:40:03,719
there are no acts of intentional externality that flow from

645
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:08,000
the owners, whether it's one owner or you know, all

646
00:40:08,039 --> 00:40:12,199
the everyone on the Nasdaq, there's sort of no intentionality

647
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:14,800
that goes into the management of the company. The only

648
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:17,920
reason why you have anything but the top down hierarchy

649
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:22,639
from the CEO or president or whatever down is basically

650
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:25,599
do it act as an accountability layer in case the

651
00:40:25,639 --> 00:40:28,400
CEO loses its touch or gets a brain tumor needs

652
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:32,400
to be replaced. For some other reason. And so you know,

653
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:35,559
from the CEO down, it's simply an army. And just

654
00:40:35,599 --> 00:40:38,599
as an army's I mean, an army has much more

655
00:40:38,599 --> 00:40:42,800
complicated tasks than a company, because the company's job is

656
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:45,280
just to make money. An army is like, well, do

657
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:47,320
I conquer this? Do I conquer that? Do I build

658
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:49,599
you know, peace? Do I make it? Does it and

659
00:40:49,679 --> 00:40:52,519
call it piece? You know, like, none of those questions

660
00:40:52,559 --> 00:40:57,239
of purpose are relevant for the company. Its goal is

661
00:40:57,320 --> 00:40:59,639
just to make money. And so this is something very

662
00:40:59,679 --> 00:41:04,159
fun mentally different from sort of anything that exists in

663
00:41:04,199 --> 00:41:09,639
these kind of procedural bureaucracy systems and oft okay, all

664
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:10,800
right onward.

665
00:41:11,119 --> 00:41:14,400
Speaker 1: In effect, Burnham's key insight was to apply Michelle's iron

666
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:17,880
law of oligarchy to shareholders and corporate managers and then

667
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:20,559
to apply the same logic to every other organization.

668
00:41:21,119 --> 00:41:23,920
Speaker 2: Murray Rothbart, the great Murray Rothbard, I think he had

669
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:27,280
a number of laws. But what of Rothbard's laws, which

670
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:30,679
ironically may have affected Rothbart to some extent, was that

671
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:34,000
everyone puts most the most attention into the thing that

672
00:41:34,039 --> 00:41:42,960
they're the most wrong about. Because Burnham was literally right

673
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:45,639
about everything else except for this. But like but that's

674
00:41:45,639 --> 00:41:47,800
his key insight. I'm sorry, going okay.

675
00:41:48,639 --> 00:41:52,039
Speaker 1: Burnham's conception of the behavior and methods of managerial elites

676
00:41:52,119 --> 00:41:55,239
owes a lot to Michelle's. They look after their own

677
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:57,400
interests at the expense of those whom they are supposed

678
00:41:57,400 --> 00:41:57,880
to represent.

679
00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:00,400
Speaker 2: And so yeah, see, see, if you're working, you know

680
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:05,119
that's true in a bureaucratic elite, in a corporate elite. Basically, no,

681
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:09,079
anyone who's a middle manager at a business is well

682
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:12,519
aware that the purpose of business is business is to

683
00:42:12,559 --> 00:42:16,960
make money, and so basically like looking after your own

684
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:19,599
interests in that sense, it's like with taking kickbacks from

685
00:42:19,639 --> 00:42:22,800
like your purchasing manager or something like. That's something that's

686
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:25,639
sort of basically non existent. I would go further and

687
00:42:25,639 --> 00:42:28,719
say that what Burnham is doing is he's basically taking

688
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,719
all of the bad press that has already by this

689
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:34,840
time been aimed at evil corporations, and he has this

690
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:37,559
aha moment and he's like, what if we we could

691
00:42:37,639 --> 00:42:41,039
redirect that at these fucking bureaucracies by calling them the

692
00:42:41,079 --> 00:42:45,719
same thing. It's just a typical rightist like three cushioned

693
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:48,199
pool shot that like just lands the eight ball in

694
00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:48,960
the corner pocket.

695
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:58,400
Speaker 1: Quoting ting cuball okay, so scratch okaya quoting. Once the

696
00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:02,719
managers consolidate their position within an institution, their objective interests

697
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:06,239
no longer fully correspond to the entrants interests of the

698
00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:10,599
other groups involved voters, owners, members, teachers, students, or consumers.

699
00:43:11,199 --> 00:43:16,280
At a decision on dividends, mergers, labor contracts, prices, curriculum,

700
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:20,079
class sized, scope of government operations, armament strikes, et cetera.

701
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:23,480
May serve the best interests of the managers without necessarily

702
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:26,039
contributing to the well being of the other groups.

703
00:43:26,119 --> 00:43:29,800
Speaker 2: See the reason why. You know this is true in

704
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:34,079
every group except the sort of corporate structure. The corporate structure.

705
00:43:34,119 --> 00:43:39,000
It's not true in because basically corporate, you know, like

706
00:43:39,119 --> 00:43:42,239
the military discipline of actually having to win your wars,

707
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:45,920
corporate discipline of actually having to make money sort of

708
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:50,280
keeps organizations tight, so they actually unless they're you know,

709
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:53,119
this breaks down a little bit in like really gross monopolies.

710
00:43:53,599 --> 00:43:57,840
I think really gross monopolies are gross, But in like

711
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:03,119
a normal capitalist environment, everything is basically has you know,

712
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:05,800
is sort of there's no slack in that because that

713
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:08,840
slack should be sort of instantly sucked out into profit.

714
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:13,159
And so you have these organizations where basically people are

715
00:44:13,199 --> 00:44:16,400
just used to like executing shit without slack. And then

716
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:17,960
you go over to the post Office and you're like,

717
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:20,679
why is this different, right, you know? And it's different

718
00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:23,920
because the whole theory of the post Office as managers too,

719
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:26,519
the post Office is a corporation. Okay, it loses a

720
00:44:26,519 --> 00:44:29,480
little bit of money. You know, who else loses money? Uber? Right,

721
00:44:29,519 --> 00:44:32,320
you know? But Uber isn't run like the post Office.

722
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:36,519
And you know, and but maybe if you made Uber

723
00:44:36,559 --> 00:44:39,639
a government department and give it one hundred years to mature,

724
00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:42,280
it would be run like the post Office. And in fact,

725
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:45,599
I'm pretty sure it would be. And so like that

726
00:44:45,599 --> 00:44:50,000
that difference of you know, basically, for the managers to

727
00:44:50,119 --> 00:44:54,239
be pursuing their own self interest is a kind of slack,

728
00:44:54,599 --> 00:44:59,079
which are basically tense. You know, organization that's running efficiently

729
00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:02,039
is it's not going to do any more than a

730
00:45:02,079 --> 00:45:05,199
car that's running efficiently is not going to like belch

731
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:09,840
like gasoline fumes at the tailpipe all right onward.

732
00:45:10,599 --> 00:45:13,719
Speaker 1: Their ends are almost entirely self serving and self justifying,

733
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:17,280
focusing on problems that expand their control and power.

734
00:45:17,559 --> 00:45:19,960
Speaker 2: Again, this is the case of the problems are like

735
00:45:20,079 --> 00:45:23,400
successful memes that make people, make people feel important, going

736
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:26,800
back to earlier like you know, yes, I'll let you

737
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:27,320
keep going.

738
00:45:27,199 --> 00:45:28,880
Speaker 1: Because talk about talk about the progressives.

739
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:30,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right?

740
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:34,920
Speaker 1: Quoting managerial activity tends to become inbred and self justifying.

741
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:38,000
The enterprise comes to be thought of as existing for

742
00:45:38,039 --> 00:45:41,039
the sake of its managers, not the managers. For the enterprise,

743
00:45:41,639 --> 00:45:44,320
a high percentage of the time high percentage of the

744
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:46,280
time of the managers and their staff is spent on

745
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:51,159
housekeeping and other internal problems. Self justifying managerial control tends

746
00:45:51,199 --> 00:45:54,920
to keep a live operations which have little social purpose

747
00:45:55,039 --> 00:45:58,679
other than to nourish an enclave of managers. This is

748
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:03,840
conspiculously true of govern Many acute, expensive, prom expensive problems

749
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:09,159
which our society faces, for example, in agriculture, radio, TV, railroads, finance,

750
00:46:09,159 --> 00:46:12,960
et cetera, are largely manufactured by the managerial agencies founded

751
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:13,679
to solve them.

752
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:15,599
Speaker 2: Go on okay.

753
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:18,199
Speaker 1: Here, one might think of the issue of climate change

754
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:21,920
or the response to the COVID nineteen pandemic. In both cases,

755
00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:25,159
every solution to the problem entails expanding the remit of

756
00:46:25,199 --> 00:46:29,360
the managers, creating new jobs for managers and instituting new

757
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:32,760
power centers from which managers can control the masses.

758
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:37,039
Speaker 2: Stop there. So basically, when you say every solution to

759
00:46:37,079 --> 00:46:39,679
the problem, again, if you just kind of flip your

760
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:44,880
lens slightly and say, an idea will be seen as

761
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:50,960
a solution by bureaucrats in a network like this, an

762
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:55,280
idea will be seen as promising if it offers that

763
00:46:55,400 --> 00:47:00,079
capacity for expansion. So if you can basically pose it

764
00:47:00,119 --> 00:47:03,840
as a solution to a problem which is within the

765
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:10,000
remit of some small oligarchy, and it also sort of

766
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:15,360
is an idea that has impact on within that oligarchy,

767
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:18,400
if it lets you expand your remit and create new

768
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:21,199
jobs and institute new power centers, it will be seen

769
00:47:21,199 --> 00:47:24,719
as a very sweet idea whoever discovered And you know,

770
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:27,559
the best ideas are like America, Like someone discovers this

771
00:47:27,639 --> 00:47:30,880
idea and then just like a whole flock of professors

772
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:34,519
can like descend on it, right, you know, and you

773
00:47:34,559 --> 00:47:36,480
know there's sort of space enough for everyone. This is

774
00:47:36,519 --> 00:47:42,039
like the dream idea. Normally it's pretty cramped, and so

775
00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:45,960
that sort of way of thinking about it is like you're, like,

776
00:47:46,159 --> 00:47:49,039
where do the ideas of these solutions come from. Where

777
00:47:49,079 --> 00:47:52,360
does the idea in COVID nineteen or the idea that

778
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:54,800
really created COVID nineteen that we have to go around

779
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:57,920
and collect all the back coronaviruses. Where does that idea

780
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:01,199
come from? Why is that a popular idea? And why

781
00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:03,519
once we collect them, do we have to genetically engineer

782
00:48:03,639 --> 00:48:08,000
them to be more dangerous? And you know, and so

783
00:48:08,639 --> 00:48:12,440
the idea, you know, it would seem that among virologists,

784
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:18,400
whose purpose in life is to control viruses, that gain

785
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:22,880
of function experiments would be the opposite direction from you

786
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:26,599
might be more interested in like loss of function. Like

787
00:48:26,639 --> 00:48:29,239
this is literally how you create a traditional vaccine is

788
00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:32,639
by you know, partly loss of function, right, And so

789
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:35,800
the fact that you're studying like gain of function is

790
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:42,800
like why is that so exciting and interesting? And and

791
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:46,679
you know, eventually it creates like it's not that the

792
00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:49,280
people who are doing these experiments were like, we're going

793
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:52,519
to create a pandemic and then we're going to get

794
00:48:52,519 --> 00:48:56,000
more money because we're the virologists and it's a virus pandemic.

795
00:48:56,400 --> 00:48:59,519
But that's in fact sort of the feedback loop that happens.

796
00:49:00,119 --> 00:49:02,880
That literally happened. I mean, we're spending more money than

797
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:06,119
ever on finding the back all all the back coronaviruses

798
00:49:06,199 --> 00:49:10,000
is like fucking pokemon out there, you know, and we're

799
00:49:10,039 --> 00:49:17,000
training them, so you know, and so you know, the

800
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:24,000
like the fact that these ideas of solutions basically prosper

801
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:29,199
in a liberal marketplace of ideas or within the expert

802
00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:33,360
marketplace of ideas, especially because you know, nobody in virology

803
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:37,480
cares what like you know, Linda Lean Topeka thinks of virology.

804
00:49:37,559 --> 00:49:41,239
It's the expert network that matters. But within the expert network, basically,

805
00:49:41,639 --> 00:49:45,960
the idea that here's this kind of research that everyone

806
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:49,119
is funded to do and that looks very, very impactful

807
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:51,800
is like, actually bad is not going to be a

808
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:55,880
popular idea. And the idea that like you know, who

809
00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:59,239
the heck prospers in an academic career by like killing

810
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:01,960
the guy in the I office is funding like doesn't

811
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:07,159
work that way, you know. And you may not be allies,

812
00:50:07,239 --> 00:50:08,679
you may not be working on the same grant, but

813
00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:11,599
at least you'd better be a team player. And so

814
00:50:12,079 --> 00:50:15,440
just the very nature of these oligarchies tends to promote

815
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:19,679
these kinds of basically oligarchical political.

816
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:24,519
Speaker 1: Formulas onward in addition, the managerial class is anti democratic

817
00:50:24,559 --> 00:50:28,960
in practice, though not in rhetoric. Managerial predominance tends towards

818
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:33,119
regimentation and the suppression of active democracy. The rising power

819
00:50:33,119 --> 00:50:36,119
of a managerial group is in a given institution is

820
00:50:36,159 --> 00:50:39,760
in fact usually equivalent to a lessening in whatever form

821
00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:44,079
of democracy is relevant. In other words, the power of

822
00:50:44,119 --> 00:50:49,519
the stockholder, voter, member, consumer, faculty, tax payer, etc. Decreases

823
00:50:49,559 --> 00:50:54,239
as the power the manager increases. The combination of managerial groups,

824
00:50:54,559 --> 00:50:57,440
as when there is a collusion between labor and business management,

825
00:50:58,519 --> 00:51:02,440
means the decline of democracy in the conjoined fields. In

826
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:06,760
this connection, we must remember that totalitarium is totalitarianism is

827
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:10,280
nothing more than an integrated front of managerial groups, achieved

828
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:13,480
either by mutual agreement or unilateral coercion.

829
00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:16,679
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, there's a silver lining in every cloud,

830
00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:21,320
I mean, you know, but the yeah, I mean, you know,

831
00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:28,840
it's like, I mean, if you can imagine democracy on

832
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:32,880
the scale of even a small institution, I mean, like,

833
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:37,519
imagine a restaurant in which the diners vote on the food.

834
00:51:37,599 --> 00:51:40,400
Imagine a restaurant in which the staff votes on the food.

835
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:44,519
And that's just a restaurant, you know, Imagine a movie

836
00:51:44,559 --> 00:51:46,599
which is made by the votes of the cast and

837
00:51:46,639 --> 00:51:49,199
the crew. Right, you know, this would be like some

838
00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:53,400
ridiculous sixties experiment and it would be like unwatchable, just

839
00:51:53,519 --> 00:51:56,440
improv of the fucking thing, you know. And so the

840
00:51:56,480 --> 00:52:01,079
sense of basically like again, he's sort of I think

841
00:52:01,119 --> 00:52:06,599
what Burnham adopts in later life is something that happens

842
00:52:06,639 --> 00:52:11,280
to some pundits who become important. They basically are like, wow,

843
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:14,840
people are actually responding to my words and making decisions

844
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:17,840
because of them. And I'm gonna instead of writing sort

845
00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:21,159
of or like looking as coldly as I can to

846
00:52:21,199 --> 00:52:24,000
see what is true, I will be like, what will

847
00:52:24,039 --> 00:52:27,480
be the useful, powerful, effective thing to say? And so

848
00:52:28,239 --> 00:52:31,719
the reason why Burnham doesn't look too closely into is

849
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:37,159
like bogus manager of bureaucrat sort of analogy or like

850
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:41,239
why he's like, oh, this is anti democracy? Well, democracy

851
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:42,719
is the cult of the age. So I'm going to

852
00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:44,880
rate that it's anti democracy. And that's like, you know,

853
00:52:45,559 --> 00:52:50,719
bad is like, you know, it's beneath him in a way.

854
00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:55,119
It's like beneath the author of the Machibellians. Okay, they're

855
00:52:55,239 --> 00:52:59,639
also practically they are also practically impossible to dispense with

856
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:04,039
going to the interchangeable nature of managers. Even today, though

857
00:53:04,079 --> 00:53:07,719
individual managers and business can lose their jobs, a napoleonic

858
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:11,280
campaign is needed to get rid of a corporate management group.

859
00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:16,079
As for government or educational administrators and trade union officials,

860
00:53:16,079 --> 00:53:20,760
a nuclear explosion would hardly be enough to dislodge them. Yeah,

861
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:22,880
so the latter is certainly true. It would have to

862
00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:25,239
be a big, big explosion.

863
00:53:26,599 --> 00:53:29,559
Speaker 1: Firing one manager will simply result in another one taking

864
00:53:29,599 --> 00:53:33,480
his place. He will have the same managerial taste, interest, ideas,

865
00:53:33,559 --> 00:53:37,239
goals and so on as the last one. You can

866
00:53:37,280 --> 00:53:39,840
just read bureaucratic there. And that should be a specific

867
00:53:39,880 --> 00:53:43,719
warning to the people in the proposed Knicks administration who

868
00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:48,239
are working on the schedule f problem. Go on, why

869
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:50,599
did this change come about? For Burnam, it is no

870
00:53:50,639 --> 00:53:53,639
great secret quoting There is no mystery in this shift.

871
00:53:53,679 --> 00:53:56,000
It can be correlated easily enough with the change in

872
00:53:56,119 --> 00:53:59,360
character of the state's activities. Parliament was the sovereign body

873
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:02,880
the limited state capitalism. The bureaus are the sovereign bodies

874
00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:07,679
of the unlimited state of managerial society. Indeed, much of

875
00:54:07,719 --> 00:54:11,719
the managerial revolution is devoted to contrasting capitalism, by which

876
00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:15,280
Burnham means the small state, laissez faire bourgeois capitalism of

877
00:54:16,079 --> 00:54:22,480
nineteenth century with managerialism. The differences between capitalism and managerialism

878
00:54:22,599 --> 00:54:30,440
manifest themselves in their respective ideologies. Capitalist societies promote individualism, opportunity,

879
00:54:30,719 --> 00:54:34,920
natural rights, especially the rights of property, freedom especially freedom

880
00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:39,960
of contract, private enterprise, private initiative, and so on. These

881
00:54:40,039 --> 00:54:43,840
ideas justified profit and interest. They showed why the owner

882
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:46,679
of the instruments of production was entitled to the full

883
00:54:46,719 --> 00:54:49,519
product of these instruments, and why the worker has no

884
00:54:49,639 --> 00:54:52,320
claim on the owner except for the contracted wages.

885
00:54:54,119 --> 00:54:57,880
Speaker 2: I mean, but sorry, going going, I mean, so one

886
00:54:57,880 --> 00:55:00,880
of the you know, the trends of the time is

887
00:55:01,039 --> 00:55:05,400
this sense of like big and bureaucratic is good. It's

888
00:55:05,440 --> 00:55:08,519
sort of like the like like remember like the Japan

889
00:55:08,639 --> 00:55:12,039
is taking over everything, business craze in the in the eighties,

890
00:55:12,159 --> 00:55:15,880
like black Rain, you know, like and so basically there's

891
00:55:15,920 --> 00:55:20,559
this sort of thing that is like looks back at

892
00:55:20,920 --> 00:55:25,559
kind of eighteenth century capitalism and also sees it as

893
00:55:25,639 --> 00:55:28,039
kind of more of an abstraction, whereas in fact it's

894
00:55:28,079 --> 00:55:31,280
just like large bodies of men being commanded in a

895
00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:37,360
military style just to make money, not to conquer and like.

896
00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:42,079
And so the extent to which that is that rather

897
00:55:42,119 --> 00:55:45,159
than the sort of classical liberal ideology, things that he

898
00:55:45,239 --> 00:55:47,719
talks about are kind of the essence of nineteenth century

899
00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:50,480
business and though he doesn't realize it, you know, because

900
00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:54,000
of this kind of fad for twentieth century business as well.

901
00:55:55,519 --> 00:55:59,639
Speaker 1: Go on, Burnham notes that where these were once progressive

902
00:55:59,679 --> 00:56:03,159
slug in nineteen forty one, they are recognized as revolutionary

903
00:56:03,159 --> 00:56:05,159
and as the cry of the cries of Tories.

904
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:08,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's an important that's that's that's an important point.

905
00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:12,360
So basically one of the things you know, classical liberalism

906
00:56:12,599 --> 00:56:15,559
in say that you know, the old Manchester day is

907
00:56:15,599 --> 00:56:18,920
going back to like the really the first half of

908
00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:22,719
the nineteenth century that is always basically a left wing

909
00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:26,519
standpoint that is basically striking down sort of thrown altar

910
00:56:26,639 --> 00:56:31,800
and monopoly. And so there's just this you know, because

911
00:56:31,800 --> 00:56:34,320
it's sort of a destructive force of these old powers

912
00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:37,480
that be in its nature it's inherently destructive. Of course,

913
00:56:37,519 --> 00:56:42,119
once the old powers are gone, you know, and new

914
00:56:42,159 --> 00:56:46,199
powers arise, that force can is also an acid to

915
00:56:46,239 --> 00:56:48,440
those new powers, and so it becomes a right wing force.

916
00:56:49,039 --> 00:56:51,760
That's why, that's why we perceived capitalism as right wing

917
00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:54,320
now and one hundred and fifty years ago is left wing.

918
00:56:54,639 --> 00:56:55,400
I'm sorry, gonehead.

919
00:56:56,679 --> 00:57:00,239
Speaker 1: In contrast, managerialism is oriented away from the pre an

920
00:57:00,239 --> 00:57:03,840
individual and towards the public collective, away from free enterprise

921
00:57:03,920 --> 00:57:08,920
and towards planning, away from providing opportunities, and towards providing jobs.

922
00:57:09,239 --> 00:57:13,800
Less about rights and more about duties. One must remember,

923
00:57:14,320 --> 00:57:17,599
you got something, yeah, yeah, No, keep going. That's just

924
00:57:17,679 --> 00:57:20,960
what I was, just a phantomst wrong, Okay. One must

925
00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:23,719
remember here that Burnham did not only have the United

926
00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:26,280
States in mind, but also the Soviet Union in Nazi

927
00:57:26,320 --> 00:57:30,079
Germany as managerial states. The Soviets and Germans were more

928
00:57:30,119 --> 00:57:32,760
blatant in their messaging than the Americans, who felt the

929
00:57:32,840 --> 00:57:36,119
need to pay lip service to the older ideologies. In

930
00:57:36,159 --> 00:57:39,519
a passage that seems shocking to read today, perhaps owing

931
00:57:39,719 --> 00:57:42,639
to eighty years of propaganda between nineteen forty one and now,

932
00:57:44,199 --> 00:57:46,880
Burnham notes that the masses in Britain, France, and America

933
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:48,960
simply did not want to fight World War II for

934
00:57:49,000 --> 00:57:52,360
the elites, that their messaging was tired and outmoded, and

935
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:55,760
simply failed to animate the young men, despite mass unemployment

936
00:57:55,760 --> 00:57:59,599
at the time. He contrasts that with the picture in Germany,

937
00:57:59,760 --> 00:58:04,880
where the mass is enthusiastically supported Hitler. He argues that

938
00:58:04,880 --> 00:58:07,559
that it is shallow and absurd to imagine that mass

939
00:58:07,559 --> 00:58:10,599
support for the German war effort was down to terrorism

940
00:58:11,719 --> 00:58:16,119
and skilled propaganda alone. Rather, the cause was genuinely popular.

941
00:58:17,199 --> 00:58:19,679
I think this is I mean, maybe it's like exaggeration.

942
00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:21,800
I think it is correct that World War Two is

943
00:58:21,840 --> 00:58:25,320
more popular in Germany than at first and with the Allies,

944
00:58:26,800 --> 00:58:29,880
especially as the Germans started up by winning. I would

945
00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:34,400
say important to remember that in World War One the

946
00:58:34,440 --> 00:58:37,719
war is much more popular than World War Two.

947
00:58:38,559 --> 00:58:40,880
Speaker 2: Just worth noting, Okay, I'm boying.

948
00:58:42,840 --> 00:58:45,960
Speaker 1: In France, meanwhile, the masses were passive and did not

949
00:58:46,039 --> 00:58:48,679
have the will to fight because democracy and capitalism were

950
00:58:48,719 --> 00:58:52,360
not causes that animated them whatsoever. He points out the

951
00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:55,559
awkward and undeniable fact that both Britain and the USA

952
00:58:55,719 --> 00:58:58,079
had to resource to the draft rather than relying on

953
00:58:58,159 --> 00:59:01,280
millions of enthusiastic and willing bollum tiers at a mass

954
00:59:01,360 --> 00:59:05,920
at a time of mass unemployment. However, managerialism ultimately had

955
00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:10,559
a globalizing tendency and totalitarian character. As Burnham warned in

956
00:59:10,639 --> 00:59:14,679
nineteen sixty, the directing managers of each nation should preserve

957
00:59:14,719 --> 00:59:18,840
a healthy remnant of national individuality from becoming dissolved into

958
00:59:18,880 --> 00:59:22,920
the global managerial state that looms under a variety of labels.

959
00:59:23,159 --> 00:59:29,199
As the ideal goal of a total managerial society. However,

960
00:59:29,239 --> 00:59:33,480
it seems that Burnham's thinking retains a residually Marxist economism,

961
00:59:33,800 --> 00:59:37,960
whereby material conditions ultimately create the need for ideologies, or

962
00:59:38,000 --> 00:59:41,400
in Marxist jargon, the bases create the superstructure, the base

963
00:59:41,440 --> 00:59:46,000
creates the superstructure. The process by which capitalistic firms become

964
00:59:46,039 --> 00:59:50,039
managerial is driven initially by economic and practical concerns, and

965
00:59:51,000 --> 00:59:57,760
only latterly by ideological ones. Burnham argues that managerialism comes

966
00:59:57,800 --> 01:00:01,079
about initially because of the economic need for startup capital,

967
01:00:01,480 --> 01:00:04,199
especially in times of contraction in which the interest rates

968
01:00:04,239 --> 01:00:07,360
are high and investors are risk averse, such as during

969
01:00:07,360 --> 01:00:08,239
the Great Depression.

970
01:00:08,840 --> 01:00:14,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I'll just leave that one like, Yeah,

971
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:16,239
I wouldn't. I wouldn't even know where to start to

972
01:00:16,320 --> 01:00:21,239
try and refute that argument. It's a piece of the

973
01:00:21,320 --> 01:00:25,800
nineteen forties that just hasn't really worked out intellectually. I'm sorry,

974
01:00:25,880 --> 01:00:26,840
going all.

975
01:00:26,800 --> 01:00:32,480
Speaker 1: Right, so quoting the internal crisis of entrepreneurial capitalism compels

976
01:00:32,480 --> 01:00:35,639
the expansion of the state. Massive amounts of new capital

977
01:00:35,639 --> 01:00:38,880
cannot be mobilized from private sources and must come directly

978
01:00:38,960 --> 01:00:43,000
or indirectly from the government. The manager is indispensable to

979
01:00:43,079 --> 01:00:48,360
the technical processes of processes of modern production. Find cooperation

980
01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:50,599
with the state and the use of its co coercive

981
01:00:50,639 --> 01:00:54,280
monopoly valuable for the continuation of production and for their

982
01:00:54,320 --> 01:00:59,960
own interests. Here, the defender of entrepreneurial capitalism might object.

983
01:01:00,039 --> 01:01:02,639
Can argue that a firm might raise funds by floating

984
01:01:02,639 --> 01:01:06,400
themselves in the stock market as an ipo, in other words,

985
01:01:06,440 --> 01:01:10,000
issuing shares in exchange for liquid capital. But the publicly

986
01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:12,719
traded company relies on the state for its for its

987
01:01:12,760 --> 01:01:18,679
legal status, and automatically comes under increased regulation and managerial oversight. Furthermore,

988
01:01:18,679 --> 01:01:22,239
in practical terms, control over such companies is often handed

989
01:01:22,239 --> 01:01:25,239
over to managers. Okay, I mean this is like sort

990
01:01:25,280 --> 01:01:29,199
of there's a like broad rightness here maybe, But really

991
01:01:29,719 --> 01:01:34,360
what's controlling the publicly traded company is that it relies

992
01:01:34,480 --> 01:01:37,480
on the press, which really uh, you know, for its

993
01:01:37,559 --> 01:01:41,039
pr status. And we live in a press run state,

994
01:01:41,480 --> 01:01:45,920
and so basically where you know, the two forms of

995
01:01:45,960 --> 01:01:50,119
governance that really drive things are the press and basically, uh,

996
01:01:50,960 --> 01:01:55,159
you know, the what Christopher Calwell calls the Second American Constitution,

997
01:01:55,280 --> 01:01:57,480
but it's actually like the fifth by which I mean

998
01:01:57,639 --> 01:02:01,360
like the law of protected classes. And then so the

999
01:02:02,800 --> 01:02:06,360
you know, right in a way, I'm not sure the

1000
01:02:06,880 --> 01:02:14,960
like yeah, I mean like regulation doesn't matter. I don't know,

1001
01:02:15,039 --> 01:02:15,440
but like.

1002
01:02:15,480 --> 01:02:17,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's sort of a little doubling down here.

1003
01:02:18,440 --> 01:02:20,199
Let's let's keep going, okay.

1004
01:02:20,880 --> 01:02:23,840
Speaker 1: For example, one of the great American tycoons, Henry Ford,

1005
01:02:23,840 --> 01:02:26,960
died in nineteen forty seven. Although his son Edsel had

1006
01:02:26,960 --> 01:02:29,239
technically been the president of the Ford Motor Company from

1007
01:02:29,320 --> 01:02:33,039
nineteen nineteen until his death in nineteen forty three, Henry

1008
01:02:33,119 --> 01:02:36,119
had always assumed de facto control over the company. The

1009
01:02:36,119 --> 01:02:40,320
board and the management had never seriously defied him. The

1010
01:02:40,400 --> 01:02:43,719
Roosevelts administration had developed a plan to nationalize the Ford

1011
01:02:43,719 --> 01:02:47,760
Motor Company should Henry becoming capacitated. Thus, he resumed direct

1012
01:02:47,760 --> 01:02:51,039
control of the firm before his death. Owing to his

1013
01:02:51,119 --> 01:02:56,199
old agent declining mental health and somewhat jul what's going.

1014
01:02:56,079 --> 01:02:59,079
Speaker 2: On, curs, I'm just raising.

1015
01:02:58,760 --> 01:03:02,559
Speaker 1: My Before his death, owing to his old age and

1016
01:03:02,599 --> 01:03:05,800
declining mental health and somewhat kajold by his wife and

1017
01:03:05,920 --> 01:03:08,880
daughter in law who owned controlling controlling stakes in the firm,

1018
01:03:09,239 --> 01:03:11,679
he agreed to hand over the day to day affairs

1019
01:03:11,679 --> 01:03:14,199
of running the Ford Motor Company to his grandson, Henry

1020
01:03:14,239 --> 01:03:17,679
Ford the Second It was soon losing nine million a month,

1021
01:03:17,719 --> 01:03:22,920
and the corporate manager, Ernest Our Ernest Our Breach, that's ironic,

1022
01:03:23,440 --> 01:03:27,320
was hired to become executive vice president and then board chairman.

1023
01:03:28,039 --> 01:03:32,039
The Ford Motor Company became publicly traded in nineteen fifty six. Thus,

1024
01:03:32,079 --> 01:03:35,039
even though the family, the Ford family retained a forty

1025
01:03:35,079 --> 01:03:37,840
percent ownership of this company, it can be said to

1026
01:03:37,840 --> 01:03:41,320
have fully transitioned into being a note of managerialism after

1027
01:03:41,360 --> 01:03:44,199
the death of its founder, Henry Ford, who once commanded

1028
01:03:44,199 --> 01:03:46,360
it as a visionary entrepreneur and leader.

1029
01:03:46,880 --> 01:03:50,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, so the separation between basically, you know, when you

1030
01:03:51,000 --> 01:03:56,239
separate kind of family or concentrated ownership, you know, companies

1031
01:03:56,840 --> 01:04:01,199
like uh, you know Facebook today from say a company

1032
01:04:01,280 --> 01:04:04,000
like Google whose ownership is distributed. You see that there's

1033
01:04:04,039 --> 01:04:07,239
not a whole lot of difference in behavior between Facebook

1034
01:04:07,280 --> 01:04:10,719
and Google. There's a little bit of difference with basically

1035
01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:14,639
someone like Elon Musk who sometimes does maybe kind of

1036
01:04:14,840 --> 01:04:17,320
have some ulterior motives, except he doesn't seem to want

1037
01:04:17,360 --> 01:04:21,920
to buy Twitter unfortunately. But the you know, maybe there's

1038
01:04:21,920 --> 01:04:25,239
some motives there, I don't know, but sort of the

1039
01:04:25,280 --> 01:04:27,639
you know, again, the sort of the obsession with this

1040
01:04:27,719 --> 01:04:31,559
kind of Robert Baron muck Ricker storyline where which is

1041
01:04:31,639 --> 01:04:35,039
just this really tired storyline even by the forties, where

1042
01:04:35,360 --> 01:04:38,079
basically you're like, oh, the evil Robert Baron, you know,

1043
01:04:38,320 --> 01:04:43,920
like is plotting to invade Baja, you know, to find, hey,

1044
01:04:44,119 --> 01:04:48,480
anyone up there have some Baja Baja Baja vehicles. It'll

1045
01:04:48,519 --> 01:04:52,559
be like storm Storm Area fifty one, except storm Baha.

1046
01:04:52,639 --> 01:04:57,960
But the yah you're hard to hear first but on

1047
01:04:58,000 --> 01:05:04,039
the peak and show but storm Baha. But yeah, I mean,

1048
01:05:04,079 --> 01:05:07,559
you know that there's there's a difference between those things.

1049
01:05:07,639 --> 01:05:13,920
Is sort of not particularly great in a way, and

1050
01:05:14,639 --> 01:05:18,360
so yeah, he's just he's just barking up the wrong tree.

1051
01:05:18,440 --> 01:05:22,360
On the difference between sort of managerialism and I mean,

1052
01:05:22,519 --> 01:05:25,639
Ford is still a perfectly a fishing company that efficiently

1053
01:05:25,679 --> 01:05:29,239
makes cars and really hasn't done anything else besides make cars.

1054
01:05:29,280 --> 01:05:32,280
Its cars maybe a little less exciting than they were

1055
01:05:32,400 --> 01:05:35,119
after the death of the Elon Musk of cars, but

1056
01:05:35,599 --> 01:05:39,519
the you know, they're still perfectly good cars. It's not

1057
01:05:39,599 --> 01:05:43,239
like for his transition entirely into making like experimental theater

1058
01:05:43,360 --> 01:05:47,360
or something. It couldn't because basically those strings are tight, right,

1059
01:05:47,519 --> 01:05:50,639
you know. Whereas the Ford Foundation, I guess we're about

1060
01:05:50,679 --> 01:05:52,920
to get to the Ford Foundation. By the way, you

1061
01:05:53,000 --> 01:05:55,639
mentioned I think ernest Our Breaches is a really cool name.

1062
01:05:55,679 --> 01:05:59,039
But I recently met someone living in Austin who has

1063
01:05:59,119 --> 01:06:02,599
the coolest name of all the time. He's actually an academic,

1064
01:06:02,719 --> 01:06:04,960
he writes. I think he's written for like City Journal

1065
01:06:05,039 --> 01:06:08,679
or Manhattan Institute or something like that. He works on homelessness,

1066
01:06:08,760 --> 01:06:13,199
and as well he should, because his name is Judge Glock.

1067
01:06:14,239 --> 01:06:16,400
Speaker 1: Oh my god, exactly.

1068
01:06:17,000 --> 01:06:19,960
Speaker 2: Isn't that amazing? That's so awesome that you didn't even

1069
01:06:19,960 --> 01:06:25,000
make it up? Judge, Yeah, yeah, oh wow, yeah, yeah,

1070
01:06:25,119 --> 01:06:28,760
it's an old Swiss name apparently. Anyway, I fucking brilliant,

1071
01:06:29,679 --> 01:06:33,000
you know, not not even artificial, or so I'm told. Anyway.

1072
01:06:33,039 --> 01:06:34,960
The same can be said for the going.

1073
01:06:36,159 --> 01:06:37,840
Speaker 1: The same can be said, and doubly so for the

1074
01:06:37,880 --> 01:06:41,000
Ford Foundation. Shortly after Henry Ford's death, Henry Ford the

1075
01:06:41,000 --> 01:06:43,360
second signed a document stating that the Ford family would

1076
01:06:43,360 --> 01:06:46,480
exercise no more influence over the Foundation than any other

1077
01:06:46,519 --> 01:06:48,960
board member. He regretted the decision for the rest of

1078
01:06:49,000 --> 01:06:52,199
his life. Since then, the Ford Foundation has supported a

1079
01:06:52,239 --> 01:06:56,000
most exclusively left wing progressive causes that would make Henry

1080
01:06:56,000 --> 01:06:59,679
Ford a well known social conservative, that's to say, at

1081
01:06:59,760 --> 01:07:06,159
least mildly mildly putting it to turn in his grave.

1082
01:07:06,760 --> 01:07:09,639
For example, between nineteen seventy and twenty ten, the Ford

1083
01:07:09,679 --> 01:07:12,320
Foundation gave forty six million, one hundred and twenty three thousand,

1084
01:07:12,360 --> 01:07:15,800
one hundred and thirty five dollars to LGBT causes alone.

1085
01:07:16,599 --> 01:07:20,960
This is typical of how managerialism captures institutions and turns

1086
01:07:20,960 --> 01:07:24,719
them against their original purposes. For managerial ones, see when

1087
01:07:24,719 --> 01:07:26,840
you get all the way over on the other side

1088
01:07:27,079 --> 01:07:32,599
of the aisle, managerialism. Managerial is just another euphemism for communists,

1089
01:07:33,000 --> 01:07:38,079
right and basically, well, he says, that's surely afterward, I guess.

1090
01:07:38,079 --> 01:07:40,679
But like if you hear if when you're you're talking

1091
01:07:40,920 --> 01:07:44,239
in this sense, you hear the word managerial. Just substitute

1092
01:07:44,239 --> 01:07:47,000
communist and it will make perfect sense. In fact, you

1093
01:07:47,000 --> 01:07:47,880
could do it as you read.

1094
01:07:48,760 --> 01:07:49,079
Speaker 2: Okay.

1095
01:07:50,039 --> 01:07:53,920
Speaker 1: Here left wing progressivism and communism are synonymous, since the

1096
01:07:53,960 --> 01:07:57,039
solutions of the former always involved the expansion of the latter.

1097
01:07:58,719 --> 01:08:01,519
To stay with the to stay with the example of

1098
01:08:01,639 --> 01:08:05,280
LGBT causes. These may seem remote from somebody from something

1099
01:08:05,320 --> 01:08:10,840
as technical as communism, but consider the armies of HR officers, diversities,

1100
01:08:10,880 --> 01:08:13,880
are as, equality ministers, and so on that are supported

1101
01:08:13,920 --> 01:08:18,239
today under the banner of LGBT LGBT and used to

1102
01:08:18,319 --> 01:08:23,199
police and control enterprises. The philanthropic endeavors of the Ford

1103
01:08:23,239 --> 01:08:28,640
Foundation in this regard laid the infrastructure and groundwork to

1104
01:08:28,680 --> 01:08:31,520
set up new power centers for communism under the guide

1105
01:08:31,560 --> 01:08:35,279
of this ostensibly unrelated cause. Jesus, it does work.

1106
01:08:35,560 --> 01:08:36,119
Speaker 2: Oh my God.

1107
01:08:38,119 --> 01:08:41,039
Speaker 1: Similar case studies can be found in the issue issues

1108
01:08:41,079 --> 01:08:47,319
as diverse as racial equality, gender equality, Islamist terrorism, climate change,

1109
01:08:47,319 --> 01:08:50,439
mental health, and the management of the COVID nineteen pandemic.

1110
01:08:50,880 --> 01:08:53,920
The logic of communism is to create invisible problems which

1111
01:08:53,960 --> 01:08:58,159
can an effect, never truly be solved, but rather can

1112
01:08:58,239 --> 01:09:04,079
permanently support commune jobs that force some arbitrary compliance standard

1113
01:09:04,359 --> 01:09:08,239
such as unconscious bias, training, net zero carbon, the ratio

1114
01:09:08,279 --> 01:09:11,039
of men and women on executive boards, or whatever else.

1115
01:09:11,800 --> 01:09:14,880
In the communist state of the Soviet Union, we hold on, well,

1116
01:09:14,880 --> 01:09:18,119
don't we do that? In the managerial state of the

1117
01:09:18,119 --> 01:09:21,840
Soviet Union, such managers would simply be called the Commissars

1118
01:09:21,840 --> 01:09:26,520
of the CPSU. In the communist state of the United States,

1119
01:09:26,720 --> 01:09:29,760
they will simply be called things like Equality, Diversity and

1120
01:09:29,800 --> 01:09:33,680
Inclusion Officer for Ford Motor Company. But their function is identical.

1121
01:09:34,199 --> 01:09:36,880
In both cases, their post and its duties are backed

1122
01:09:36,920 --> 01:09:38,680
by the full force of the law of the law

1123
01:09:38,680 --> 01:09:41,600
in the state. The latter is an example the fused

1124
01:09:41,640 --> 01:09:47,600
political economic apparatus Burnham describes in the end, Franklin, eleanor

1125
01:09:47,680 --> 01:09:50,880
Roosevelt did not have to nationalize Ford. Even if the

1126
01:09:50,960 --> 01:09:56,079
US government and the Ford Motor Company have the ostensible

1127
01:09:56,119 --> 01:09:59,800
appearance of being separate entities, in actuality, they move as one,

1128
01:10:00,239 --> 01:10:04,239
expouse the same values, enforce the same compliance policies, and

1129
01:10:04,319 --> 01:10:06,600
so on, as if they were two sub departments of

1130
01:10:06,640 --> 01:10:09,079
the polit bureau. Well, they don't make the same kind

1131
01:10:09,079 --> 01:10:14,159
of tough trucks, you know, I mean the uh you know,

1132
01:10:14,640 --> 01:10:17,880
like imagine, imagine if the Department of Transportation had to

1133
01:10:17,920 --> 01:10:21,760
make the F one fifty right, you know, I mean right, right, right.

1134
01:10:21,800 --> 01:10:23,840
And so you know, the thing is that where you

1135
01:10:23,920 --> 01:10:28,720
see these little communist colonies in these basically capitalistic enterprises

1136
01:10:28,800 --> 01:10:33,479
are hr PR sort of stuff like that that basically

1137
01:10:33,640 --> 01:10:36,479
kind of take over the brain of the corporation and

1138
01:10:36,560 --> 01:10:39,359
kind of team it a little bit to you know,

1139
01:10:39,399 --> 01:10:44,600
provide jobs to protected classes, you know, to make it say.

1140
01:10:44,600 --> 01:10:47,319
And do you know there's this huge list of corporations

1141
01:10:47,319 --> 01:10:51,119
that have fire filed amicus briefs with the Supreme Court

1142
01:10:51,279 --> 01:10:55,159
asking the court to be more n I don't mean more,

1143
01:10:55,319 --> 01:10:58,000
I mean I mean to take race into account when

1144
01:10:58,079 --> 01:11:04,720
designing its admissions, you know, the I mean yeah, right.

1145
01:11:04,920 --> 01:11:08,960
So these are clearly these kind of little colonies where

1146
01:11:09,279 --> 01:11:12,159
most of the cells are still you know, the host,

1147
01:11:12,319 --> 01:11:15,319
but like the cells from the alien thing that goes

1148
01:11:15,560 --> 01:11:19,840
in here, you know, are kind of doing most of

1149
01:11:19,880 --> 01:11:22,439
the work of having.

1150
01:11:24,159 --> 01:11:26,479
Speaker 2: Creating two subdepartments of the polyp Bureau, but they're very

1151
01:11:26,479 --> 01:11:27,279
different departments.

1152
01:11:27,880 --> 01:11:28,159
Speaker 3: Go on.

1153
01:11:30,239 --> 01:11:33,000
Speaker 1: Thus we can see that although to thus we can

1154
01:11:33,039 --> 01:11:36,439
see that although to retain the Marxist lexicon, the economic

1155
01:11:36,479 --> 01:11:41,560
base determines the ideological superstructure. In Burnham, communism also uses

1156
01:11:41,600 --> 01:11:45,359
the ideology ideological superstructure, which is to say, the slogans

1157
01:11:45,399 --> 01:11:48,439
of social justice or climate change, et cetera, to expand

1158
01:11:48,439 --> 01:11:50,840
its economic base and therefore its control. God damn it,

1159
01:11:50,920 --> 01:11:51,800
that works too well.

1160
01:11:52,079 --> 01:11:54,760
Speaker 2: If you go. If you go to Google and grams,

1161
01:11:54,800 --> 01:11:57,359
which lets you graph the use of words and phrases

1162
01:11:57,399 --> 01:12:01,000
across time, and graph the use of words of the

1163
01:12:01,039 --> 01:12:04,119
phrase social justice, which means by themselves these words mean

1164
01:12:04,119 --> 01:12:06,880
almost nothing. If you grasp the use of the words

1165
01:12:06,920 --> 01:12:13,560
social justice from say, eighteen eighty till twenty twenty, you'll

1166
01:12:13,560 --> 01:12:18,359
be impressed. Okay, wrote it down Papava.

1167
01:12:18,600 --> 01:12:22,119
Speaker 1: The role of public relations in general is somewhat taken

1168
01:12:22,119 --> 01:12:25,359
for granted and Burnham and reduced to propaganda, even though,

1169
01:12:25,399 --> 01:12:27,840
as we saw earlier, he was acutely aware of the

1170
01:12:27,880 --> 01:12:30,880
power of the press to brainwash the public. He was

1171
01:12:30,920 --> 01:12:33,600
also aware that the United States had come to be

1172
01:12:33,720 --> 01:12:38,079
dominated by Preto's foxes, who rely almost exclusively on persuasion

1173
01:12:38,119 --> 01:12:41,479
to get their way. This aspect of communism takes a

1174
01:12:41,520 --> 01:12:45,439
subordinate role in Burnham's work, but is massively expanded upon

1175
01:12:45,479 --> 01:12:47,840
in the work of Samuel T. Francis, which we will

1176
01:12:48,000 --> 01:12:52,840
explore shortly. While Burnham worked chiefly in the diagnostic mode,

1177
01:12:52,920 --> 01:12:56,640
he makes some suggestions as to how Western societies might

1178
01:12:56,800 --> 01:13:02,239
escape communist totalitarianism. In fact, this is the central thesis

1179
01:13:02,239 --> 01:13:06,239
of his new of his next book, The Machiavellians, Burnham

1180
01:13:06,239 --> 01:13:08,560
had a belief in a pluralistic society in which the

1181
01:13:08,680 --> 01:13:11,000
powers in which power restrains power.

1182
01:13:11,039 --> 01:13:14,039
Speaker 2: I think he's also wrong about this, although he doesn't

1183
01:13:14,039 --> 01:13:16,760
spend actually most of his time in The Machiavelians talking

1184
01:13:16,760 --> 01:13:19,319
about the solution. He just wants you to think that

1185
01:13:19,359 --> 01:13:22,720
there's one out there and that it's not grim. You know,

1186
01:13:23,079 --> 01:13:28,079
saying power restrains power is like in the classical political science,

1187
01:13:28,119 --> 01:13:30,880
the political science of Greece and Rome, the phrase for

1188
01:13:31,000 --> 01:13:35,079
basically competing powers would be imperium in imperio. That is

1189
01:13:35,119 --> 01:13:39,520
sort of power within power, and it's generally held to be,

1190
01:13:40,359 --> 01:13:44,399
you know, a design fallacy. And usually power doesn't restrain power.

1191
01:13:44,800 --> 01:13:47,199
One power conquers the other power and then since that

1192
01:13:47,359 --> 01:13:50,520
sets it up as a front man or a yes

1193
01:13:50,560 --> 01:13:53,439
man rather but sorry gone.

1194
01:13:54,680 --> 01:13:59,960
Speaker 1: Thus his solution to it was to communist totalitarians say

1195
01:14:00,399 --> 01:14:03,359
to set managers from different spheres against.

1196
01:14:03,439 --> 01:14:08,800
Speaker 2: Commissars, commissars, bureaucrats. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, from different or

1197
01:14:08,840 --> 01:14:10,720
we could just go back, we can go back to managerial.

1198
01:14:10,720 --> 01:14:12,680
I think we've made the point. Let's go back to Bagaria,

1199
01:14:13,159 --> 01:14:13,520
all right.

1200
01:14:13,760 --> 01:14:17,119
Speaker 1: Thus, his solution to managerial totalitarianism was essentially to set

1201
01:14:17,159 --> 01:14:20,039
managers from different spheres against each other as to prevent

1202
01:14:20,079 --> 01:14:23,359
them from uniting. The only way to manage the managers,

1203
01:14:23,399 --> 01:14:26,000
in short, is to keep them busy enough managing or

1204
01:14:26,000 --> 01:14:29,199
countervailing each other to guarantee that they won't unite and

1205
01:14:29,199 --> 01:14:32,680
spend all their time managing the rest of us. This

1206
01:14:32,760 --> 01:14:36,239
is substantially the same solution as Moscow's juridical defense and

1207
01:14:36,279 --> 01:14:41,079
separation of powers. However, as Jugenell's work shows historically, and

1208
01:14:41,119 --> 01:14:44,640
as history since Burnham was writing has shown, this is

1209
01:14:44,680 --> 01:14:48,439
easier said than done, because power is logic always tends

1210
01:14:48,439 --> 01:14:52,079
towards centralization. And it seems to me that the managers

1211
01:14:52,079 --> 01:14:56,800
have a vested interest in convergence at the time. What

1212
01:14:56,800 --> 01:15:00,479
do you yeah, I mean yeah, they don't. Like they

1213
01:15:00,520 --> 01:15:06,720
sort of they converge because their thoughts naturally converge because

1214
01:15:06,760 --> 01:15:10,439
they have the same ideas. Really, it's like if you

1215
01:15:10,520 --> 01:15:13,880
expect the house, you know, if you expect one, you know,

1216
01:15:14,000 --> 01:15:16,239
Harvard to be left wing and Yale to be right wing,

1217
01:15:16,319 --> 01:15:18,479
what you will find is that the managers in Harvard

1218
01:15:18,520 --> 01:15:21,319
and Yale cannot be said against each other because they

1219
01:15:21,399 --> 01:15:23,479
all believe the same thing, despite the fact that they

1220
01:15:23,479 --> 01:15:26,880
don't work for each other. And so really you're just

1221
01:15:26,960 --> 01:15:28,600
your your pluralism is.

1222
01:15:28,560 --> 01:15:30,920
Speaker 2: Not getting you anything. And I think that that's what

1223
01:15:31,000 --> 01:15:34,680
the h the author this this Pervini chap is getting it.

1224
01:15:35,600 --> 01:15:38,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, so, like what is the what would be the

1225
01:15:38,399 --> 01:15:42,119
main difference in ideology between like Tony Blair and Facebook?

1226
01:15:43,399 --> 01:15:47,640
Speaker 2: Is there one? I'm sorry you see yeah? No, yeah, no,

1227
01:15:47,760 --> 01:15:51,560
I didn't hear anything. Oh you're not hearing it. No,

1228
01:15:51,640 --> 01:15:53,479
it's because there isn't one. There's it's nothing.

1229
01:15:53,640 --> 01:16:04,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, exactly. Great podcasting here, guys, very deep, Verry,

1230
01:16:04,960 --> 01:16:06,439
we go very deep on this podcast.

1231
01:16:06,479 --> 01:16:08,279
Speaker 2: Man. Sometimes we say nothing.

1232
01:16:11,560 --> 01:16:12,359
Speaker 1: I know where, I know where.

1233
01:16:12,359 --> 01:16:14,680
Speaker 2: I am wanting to keep going, I keep going, keep

1234
01:16:14,760 --> 01:16:16,159
I found it. I'll tell you nothing.

1235
01:16:17,079 --> 01:16:19,399
Speaker 1: At the time of writing, they have achieved total global

1236
01:16:19,439 --> 01:16:22,880
dominance across all institutions. It strikes me that of the

1237
01:16:22,920 --> 01:16:26,239
possible rival nodes of power, only to have the potential

1238
01:16:26,600 --> 01:16:31,000
to resist this total dominance. The first or the kolopp class,

1239
01:16:31,159 --> 01:16:34,199
or if you prefer the independent middle class or petit

1240
01:16:34,279 --> 01:16:36,359
bourgeoisie wait wait wait.

1241
01:16:36,239 --> 01:16:40,720
Speaker 2: Wait, or it said petite with any bourgeoise, which means

1242
01:16:40,800 --> 01:16:45,439
little oh yeah, little yeah, yeah, I know. Just OK.

1243
01:16:45,600 --> 01:16:48,439
Speaker 1: Sorry, actually, this this isn't a finished copy. This is

1244
01:16:48,520 --> 01:16:49,560
one of that he sent me before.

1245
01:16:49,560 --> 01:16:55,720
Speaker 2: That was because is funny. But the first or the

1246
01:16:55,760 --> 01:17:02,000
cool do you prefer the sorry? Yes, the first of

1247
01:17:02,039 --> 01:17:04,560
the Kolott class, or if you prefer the independent middle

1248
01:17:04,600 --> 01:17:08,720
class or petite bourgeoisie, who are non managerial, disparate and

1249
01:17:08,800 --> 01:17:12,119
are not as yet organized as a minority interest group.

1250
01:17:13,279 --> 01:17:15,840
The second are managers at the level of national government

1251
01:17:15,880 --> 01:17:19,840
whose power represents a threat to global managerialism and therefore

1252
01:17:19,920 --> 01:17:22,840
must in the long run, be conquered and dissolved as

1253
01:17:22,920 --> 01:17:26,359
so many feudal castles. So long as armies are loyal

1254
01:17:26,399 --> 01:17:31,239
to nations rather than to global governance structures or supernatural

1255
01:17:31,720 --> 01:17:36,319
supra national organizations, that remains at least the foreseeable chance

1256
01:17:36,640 --> 01:17:39,760
that a power struggle may emerge between the traditional apparatuses

1257
01:17:39,800 --> 01:17:43,760
of nation states and the power centers of globalism. At present,

1258
01:17:43,800 --> 01:17:46,640
they are united. But if history tells us anything at all,

1259
01:17:47,159 --> 01:17:49,880
it is that they can change quickly. Yeah, that doesn't

1260
01:17:49,920 --> 01:17:52,560
seem very likely. I mean, you know, like imagine the

1261
01:17:52,560 --> 01:17:55,439
Pentagon pulling like a military coupe. I mean, the Pentagon

1262
01:17:56,000 --> 01:18:00,560
can't even invade Barbados, you know. I mean, he probably

1263
01:18:00,560 --> 01:18:03,479
invade Barbados, but you know, the Bahamas might be hard.

1264
01:18:03,600 --> 01:18:06,079
It would probably take a few days. He would probably

1265
01:18:06,079 --> 01:18:08,159
take a few days. Right, they'd have to clear everything

1266
01:18:08,199 --> 01:18:12,760
through jags, you know. But yeah, I keep going.

1267
01:18:14,399 --> 01:18:17,199
Speaker 1: On this score. In the Machiavelians. One thing Burnham does

1268
01:18:17,199 --> 01:18:19,399
add to the elite theorist is his own idea of

1269
01:18:19,399 --> 01:18:24,880
how revolutions take place. There is revolutionary change one when

1270
01:18:24,920 --> 01:18:28,800
the elite cannot or will not adjust to the new techno, technological,

1271
01:18:29,079 --> 01:18:34,119
and social forces. Two when a significant proportion of the

1272
01:18:34,119 --> 01:18:39,039
elite rejects rule, rejects ruling for cultural and esthetic activities.

1273
01:18:41,399 --> 01:18:46,199
Three when the elite fails to assimilate promising new elements.

1274
01:18:46,279 --> 01:18:49,680
Four when a sizable percentage of the elite questions.

1275
01:18:49,479 --> 01:18:51,880
Speaker 2: Legitimacy of its own rule. Good luck with that.

1276
01:18:52,680 --> 01:18:56,319
Speaker 1: Five when elite non elite reject the mythological basis of

1277
01:18:56,520 --> 01:18:59,920
order in the society, and finally six when the rule

1278
01:19:00,079 --> 01:19:02,720
in class lacks courage to employ force effectively.

1279
01:19:03,319 --> 01:19:07,479
Speaker 2: So I really mostly work on the basis of I

1280
01:19:07,520 --> 01:19:11,239
would guess one, four, and five. Maybe there's some like

1281
01:19:11,439 --> 01:19:14,359
three involved, but really four. You know, you laugh at

1282
01:19:14,359 --> 01:19:16,560
four for as a sweet spot. Four is where it's at.

1283
01:19:16,640 --> 01:19:20,760
Speaker 1: Man, It's you know, it's forest for forrest would brought

1284
01:19:20,800 --> 01:19:23,920
down the Soviet Union. Yeah, you know, it's just one

1285
01:19:24,000 --> 01:19:25,800
of those things that like when you read it, it

1286
01:19:25,880 --> 01:19:28,319
seems so absurd, but then when you look at history,

1287
01:19:28,319 --> 01:19:31,600
you're like, they actually do that. Four and five is

1288
01:19:31,640 --> 01:19:34,600
the is the core, man, It's like, it's it's central.

1289
01:19:35,000 --> 01:19:37,119
It's also good for the non elite to reject the

1290
01:19:37,159 --> 01:19:40,399
mythological basis of order in the society. Like you know,

1291
01:19:40,479 --> 01:19:43,279
it's like our society is supposedly run according to this

1292
01:19:43,399 --> 01:19:46,119
like piece of paper you know, from like two hundred

1293
01:19:46,119 --> 01:19:48,720
and fifty years ago. Like none of the actual parts

1294
01:19:48,760 --> 01:19:51,439
of the government are like basically mentioned a piece of paper,

1295
01:19:51,760 --> 01:19:53,880
but like we keep on keeping on. But you know,

1296
01:19:54,159 --> 01:20:00,880
the like yeah, it's just it's it's like when you

1297
01:20:00,880 --> 01:20:02,960
you know, when you're like, oh my god, they're violating

1298
01:20:03,000 --> 01:20:08,760
the constitution. That's like this basically fundamentally deferential, non revolutionary

1299
01:20:08,920 --> 01:20:14,720
form of descent. You know, I think Lenin said somewhere that,

1300
01:20:14,800 --> 01:20:16,720
you know, when he realized that the goal was not

1301
01:20:17,159 --> 01:20:21,199
to seize the levers of the machine but to smash

1302
01:20:21,279 --> 01:20:26,000
the machine, he really had he had anything going. And

1303
01:20:26,079 --> 01:20:30,760
so you know, questioning the legitimacy and rejecting the mythological

1304
01:20:30,800 --> 01:20:34,239
basis of order are not grasping the levers of the machine.

1305
01:20:34,239 --> 01:20:37,720
They're they're smashing, you know, the machine. So in a way,

1306
01:20:37,920 --> 01:20:42,000
Lenin is Lenin really emerges as the foremost theory of revolution.

1307
01:20:42,119 --> 01:20:45,319
Here with no surprise. Go to the next point, which

1308
01:20:45,319 --> 01:20:49,279
is really really good. Okay, it is notable that of

1309
01:20:49,319 --> 01:20:53,000
these six criteria, only one considers the discontent of the masses,

1310
01:20:53,359 --> 01:20:55,520
and even then it is only half of the point,

1311
01:20:55,680 --> 01:20:58,000
or in other words, five and a half out of

1312
01:20:58,000 --> 01:21:00,199
the six criteria concern the elites.

1313
01:21:00,560 --> 01:21:03,239
Speaker 2: The discontent of the masses is bs. It almost never

1314
01:21:03,279 --> 01:21:05,880
has an effect. If you just if you actually starve people,

1315
01:21:05,920 --> 01:21:10,039
they'll become like quiet as mice. It's it's like, you know, actually,

1316
01:21:10,159 --> 01:21:13,960
the more you know, there's this whole system of you know,

1317
01:21:15,479 --> 01:21:18,800
bullshit in the American political tradition that are like, the

1318
01:21:18,800 --> 01:21:21,920
more oppressed people are, the more you know, likely they

1319
01:21:21,920 --> 01:21:24,279
are to rise up and seize power. It's the opposite.

1320
01:21:24,319 --> 01:21:26,039
The more oppressed they are, the less likely they are

1321
01:21:26,079 --> 01:21:28,119
to rise up and sees power, And the worse their

1322
01:21:28,159 --> 01:21:31,960
conditions are, the less they'll be interested in contending for power.

1323
01:21:33,359 --> 01:21:36,520
Last two and a half years of should make a

1324
01:21:36,520 --> 01:21:38,560
lot a lot of things clear to a lot of people,

1325
01:21:38,880 --> 01:21:42,840
especially that a lot of the political ideology that most

1326
01:21:42,880 --> 01:21:47,800
people are holding on to just isn't for like kindergarteners.

1327
01:21:47,960 --> 01:21:50,880
It's like, yeah, so it's embarrassing. It's like you're you're

1328
01:21:50,920 --> 01:21:53,159
a grown man, you're a grown woman, Like why do

1329
01:21:53,199 --> 01:21:57,800
you care about this stuff? Yeah? All right.

1330
01:21:58,159 --> 01:22:01,039
Speaker 1: When considering our current situation on your and aagerial dominance,

1331
01:22:01,319 --> 01:22:03,439
we might say that the current elite do adjust to

1332
01:22:03,520 --> 01:22:07,520
new technologies, still have it insatial, satiable appetite to rule,

1333
01:22:07,920 --> 01:22:10,720
to not question their own legitimacy and believe their own myths.

1334
01:22:10,920 --> 01:22:15,039
Speaker 2: We're working on it. We're working on it. Like, yeah,

1335
01:22:15,239 --> 01:22:18,039
cut us a break out of you sorry, go on,

1336
01:22:18,720 --> 01:22:20,039
so far, so good.

1337
01:22:20,279 --> 01:22:23,279
Speaker 1: However, to go through the six points again, they are

1338
01:22:23,319 --> 01:22:26,119
at risk of mismanaging new technologies if they are too

1339
01:22:26,159 --> 01:22:29,960
forceful in their climate change agenda. People accustomed to driving

1340
01:22:30,000 --> 01:22:32,479
their own cars and enjoying other methods of travel, and

1341
01:22:32,520 --> 01:22:35,279
who are used to eating meat at affordable prices are

1342
01:22:35,399 --> 01:22:40,000
likely to revolt should these luxuries be suddenly removed. Nobody revolts,

1343
01:22:40,039 --> 01:22:41,920
like they're back to discontent of the masses.

1344
01:22:41,960 --> 01:22:46,520
Speaker 2: Ship It's like yeah, no, I mean yeah, yeah. They

1345
01:22:46,720 --> 01:22:49,520
had no problem being locked and no one revolted over

1346
01:22:49,560 --> 01:22:52,680
being lockdown. So you know, there were some people complained

1347
01:22:52,680 --> 01:22:54,560
a little bit. I think in Australia there was a

1348
01:22:54,600 --> 01:22:58,720
little pushing and shoving at some point, you know, yeah,

1349
01:22:58,760 --> 01:23:01,640
the penal penal and it was the penal colony just

1350
01:23:01,640 --> 01:23:08,960
showed itself to be they like being prisoners, yeah, somewhat

1351
01:23:09,800 --> 01:23:14,119
so and then and they may find some elite backing

1352
01:23:14,119 --> 01:23:16,399
by vested interests who still want to make money from

1353
01:23:16,439 --> 01:23:20,239
the massive industries associated with them. They have also not

1354
01:23:20,319 --> 01:23:22,800
yet found a way to manage the new social forces

1355
01:23:22,880 --> 01:23:26,920
unleashed by widespread resentment against mass immigration and other facets

1356
01:23:26,960 --> 01:23:29,439
of globalism that led to the Brexit vote in the UK,

1357
01:23:29,920 --> 01:23:32,520
Donald Trump in the United States, and so called populism

1358
01:23:32,520 --> 01:23:35,520
in Europe, most recently embodied by the meteoric rise of

1359
01:23:35,600 --> 01:23:39,119
Eric Zamore in France, who was who has flank Marine

1360
01:23:39,199 --> 01:23:42,079
lapenn by being more radical in his rhetoric to chat.

1361
01:23:42,079 --> 01:23:44,920
But what I like is that all of these things

1362
01:23:45,000 --> 01:23:48,840
are politically dead. Actually they have thrown away. It's easy.

1363
01:23:49,439 --> 01:23:52,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean what I saw Zamor, I was like,

1364
01:23:53,119 --> 01:23:55,439
when I heard him, I was like, Okay, that's not

1365
01:23:56,399 --> 01:23:59,960
He's not going anywhere. So the current tactic of simple

1366
01:24:00,159 --> 01:24:03,399
branding such people as beyond the pale insurrectionist, fascists and

1367
01:24:03,520 --> 01:24:06,119
nauseum has not worked in any respects since you know.

1368
01:24:06,159 --> 01:24:12,640
Speaker 2: Peter, since twenty fifteen. You know, Peter, when you're a dissident,

1369
01:24:13,039 --> 01:24:16,439
I just got to say one thing. It's really important

1370
01:24:16,920 --> 01:24:22,960
to keep your hand off your dick. Since twenty fifteen,

1371
01:24:23,159 --> 01:24:29,239
all right, keep going. In fact, four years of such

1372
01:24:29,319 --> 01:24:32,479
relentless rhetoric from the corporate media results it in a hand.

1373
01:24:32,680 --> 01:24:34,159
You can quote you can quote me on that. You

1374
01:24:34,159 --> 01:24:38,520
can quote me on that, but gone, oh man.

1375
01:24:39,079 --> 01:24:41,560
Speaker 1: In fact, four years of such a relentless rhetoric from

1376
01:24:41,600 --> 01:24:43,119
the corporate media results it in.

1377
01:24:43,119 --> 01:24:46,520
Speaker 2: Okay, corporate media, corporate media. This is an example of

1378
01:24:46,600 --> 01:24:49,359
exactly the same thing that Burnham is doing. He's like

1379
01:24:49,479 --> 01:24:52,880
taking this like stupid equation from this like illiterate like

1380
01:24:53,000 --> 01:24:56,479
you know, propaganda narrative. The corporate means bad. Therefore if

1381
01:24:56,479 --> 01:24:59,560
we call the media corporate, will mean they're bad. Actually,

1382
01:24:59,640 --> 01:25:04,279
like you know, there's nothing that's corporate about them in

1383
01:25:04,279 --> 01:25:10,520
a sense, they're disguised government departments and they're actually you know, bureaucracies.

1384
01:25:10,600 --> 01:25:14,159
You could say the official media. Even that's tingentious. I

1385
01:25:14,319 --> 01:25:17,319
just I like just saying the prestige media. But corporate

1386
01:25:17,359 --> 01:25:20,680
media is actually leading people down the long rat hole

1387
01:25:20,720 --> 01:25:23,239
because just they've you know, they've spent fifteen years going

1388
01:25:23,239 --> 01:25:25,800
to movies like corporation bad. You know. It's just like

1389
01:25:25,840 --> 01:25:28,079
in the Third Reich, you'd be like Jew bad, Jew bad,

1390
01:25:28,159 --> 01:25:30,640
Jew unscreened, Jew bad. Right, you know, it's like this,

1391
01:25:30,840 --> 01:25:33,479
like you know, and so this thing of like leveraging

1392
01:25:33,520 --> 01:25:36,840
these stupid two minutes hates, you know, crap is just

1393
01:25:37,039 --> 01:25:40,520
intellectual laziness and it should be stricken from the earth

1394
01:25:40,560 --> 01:25:41,199
with the red pen.

1395
01:25:44,000 --> 01:25:46,479
Speaker 1: In fact, four years of such a relentless rhetoric from

1396
01:25:46,520 --> 01:25:49,199
the corporate media resulted in the hated Donald Trump increasing

1397
01:25:49,239 --> 01:25:52,920
his total votes by over fourteen million people, which would

1398
01:25:52,920 --> 01:25:56,039
have been a resounding victory had he not been against

1399
01:25:56,079 --> 01:25:59,600
the most popular, the most popular presidential candidate of all time.

1400
01:26:00,199 --> 01:26:02,359
Speaker 2: Is he trying to say something? Here is just like

1401
01:26:02,439 --> 01:26:03,119
some subtext.

1402
01:26:03,239 --> 01:26:08,199
Speaker 1: Let's go on, I'm reading this in AA's voice when

1403
01:26:08,239 --> 01:26:09,920
he's being like that sarcastic.

1404
01:26:09,960 --> 01:26:11,399
Speaker 2: Do you want me to do some reading? I could

1405
01:26:11,399 --> 01:26:12,800
do some reading. I could. Do you want me to

1406
01:26:12,880 --> 01:26:16,880
do some reading? If you want to gut the populist

1407
01:26:16,880 --> 01:26:19,640
phenomena are perhaps the symptom of are perhaps a symptom

1408
01:26:19,680 --> 01:26:23,279
of the fact that communist dominance and dominance and convergence

1409
01:26:23,279 --> 01:26:26,079
will increasingly seek to dissolve the nation stated as an

1410
01:26:26,119 --> 01:26:30,560
obsolete unit. Indeed, globalists use separate separatist groups such as

1411
01:26:30,600 --> 01:26:33,159
the S and P in Scotland or the Catalan Independence

1412
01:26:33,199 --> 01:26:36,640
Movement in Spain, as battering rams against the national governments.

1413
01:26:36,680 --> 01:26:40,439
It's very interesting to notice when so nationalist parties are

1414
01:26:40,479 --> 01:26:43,560
either basically communist or fascist, but not like in between,

1415
01:26:44,119 --> 01:26:46,640
and they're appear to actually just simply be two meanings

1416
01:26:46,640 --> 01:26:51,000
of the word nationalist, because the meaning that refers to

1417
01:26:51,039 --> 01:26:53,920
the Catalan Independence movement is not the same that refers

1418
01:26:53,960 --> 01:26:58,399
to Hitler I'm just saying or trump in juvenili In

1419
01:26:58,479 --> 01:27:01,880
terms of globalist constanitute the center and separate as the peripheries.

1420
01:27:01,880 --> 01:27:05,680
The national governments are the subsidiaries whose feudal castles must

1421
01:27:05,680 --> 01:27:07,840
in the long run be destroyed. Okay, this is just

1422
01:27:07,880 --> 01:27:11,600
like too fertile a metaphor. I think, so long as

1423
01:27:11,680 --> 01:27:15,600
national governments maintain standing armies, it is possible to imagine

1424
01:27:15,640 --> 01:27:18,760
scenarios in which they may turn on the globalists. For example,

1425
01:27:18,800 --> 01:27:22,000
the populations will not brook the punitive carbon taxes that

1426
01:27:22,079 --> 01:27:24,640
globalists wish them to enact. Here we are in you know,

1427
01:27:25,720 --> 01:27:29,680
social social descent. You know again, the political incentives to

1428
01:27:29,760 --> 01:27:32,960
side with dissidents against globalists may be too strong for

1429
01:27:33,159 --> 01:27:37,000
leaders to resist. You know, I don't think the I

1430
01:27:37,000 --> 01:27:40,279
don't know how long the Orebone regime in Hungary will exist,

1431
01:27:40,359 --> 01:27:46,359
But I don't think the cause of them is carbon taxes.

1432
01:27:46,560 --> 01:27:48,960
I don't think that's their main issue down there in Hungary.

1433
01:27:49,239 --> 01:27:51,640
I could be wrong, but in any case, basically there's

1434
01:27:51,640 --> 01:27:53,960
plenty of Hungarian globalists. The globalists are going to win.

1435
01:27:54,000 --> 01:27:57,319
They always win. Like this isn't even it's just a

1436
01:27:57,359 --> 01:27:58,359
question how long.

1437
01:27:58,680 --> 01:28:01,119
Speaker 1: Do you want to read some Yeah, this is actually

1438
01:28:01,199 --> 01:28:05,159
the last paragraph, so awesome. The elite are also actively

1439
01:28:05,239 --> 01:28:08,960
turning away promising new elements, which is simply to say

1440
01:28:09,000 --> 01:28:12,279
talented people with the wrong political views, skin color.

1441
01:28:12,079 --> 01:28:12,600
Speaker 2: Or gender.

1442
01:28:13,439 --> 01:28:15,279
Speaker 1: Either of these people are not hired in the first

1443
01:28:15,319 --> 01:28:19,039
place because of the affirmative action programs and increasingly absurd

1444
01:28:19,680 --> 01:28:23,119
diversity quotas, or they are hired but later sacked for

1445
01:28:23,199 --> 01:28:24,760
transgressing the regime in some way.

1446
01:28:24,960 --> 01:28:28,319
Speaker 2: What color? What color? Would this never mond? Go on?

1447
01:28:29,640 --> 01:28:31,880
Speaker 1: In the long run, this will create an entire class

1448
01:28:31,880 --> 01:28:35,119
of disaffected well would be elites who will put their

1449
01:28:35,479 --> 01:28:38,840
who will put their skills and talents towards their eventual overthrow,

1450
01:28:39,279 --> 01:28:41,279
especially if they feel locked out of what would have

1451
01:28:41,560 --> 01:28:44,359
been their career path in a normal and well run society.

1452
01:28:44,800 --> 01:28:46,880
Speaker 2: I think everybody's locked out of a career path in

1453
01:28:46,920 --> 01:28:50,359
this abnormal and poorly run society. But go on, but day,

1454
01:28:50,439 --> 01:28:51,439
this is good. This is good.

1455
01:28:52,680 --> 01:28:56,640
Speaker 1: Furthermore, around thirty percent of people have turned decisively against

1456
01:28:56,680 --> 01:29:00,159
the elites in the past few years. Taken together with

1457
01:29:00,239 --> 01:29:03,960
disaffect it would be elites, these dissonances form a non

1458
01:29:04,000 --> 01:29:07,960
elite who increasingly reject the mythological basis of order in

1459
01:29:07,960 --> 01:29:12,079
the society where the basis is some empty managerial slogan

1460
01:29:12,159 --> 01:29:14,760
of social justice that becomes a precondition to enter the

1461
01:29:14,800 --> 01:29:15,880
workplace to.

1462
01:29:16,000 --> 01:29:21,119
Speaker 2: These these are your infamous dark elves, right, yeah, yeah,

1463
01:29:21,520 --> 01:29:25,399
Notice how well the communist slogan or social justice works there.

1464
01:29:25,680 --> 01:29:29,880
Speaker 1: I was just going to say that which brings us

1465
01:29:29,920 --> 01:29:32,279
finally to the question of force and whether the managerial

1466
01:29:32,279 --> 01:29:38,279
foxes are prepared to use it. Whether the oh which

1467
01:29:38,279 --> 01:29:40,439
brings us finally to the question of force, and whether

1468
01:29:40,479 --> 01:29:45,000
the communist foxes are prepared to use it against the

1469
01:29:44,520 --> 01:29:49,600
dissident population. Time will surely tell. But according to Burnham's criteria,

1470
01:29:49,840 --> 01:29:53,560
while the manager while the communist elite may look secure

1471
01:29:53,600 --> 01:29:56,359
and united, now they are faced with a threat that

1472
01:29:56,399 --> 01:30:00,520
cannot be managed using their usual tricks of persuad, says,

1473
01:30:00,520 --> 01:30:04,399
the people who constitute that threat have become actively hostile

1474
01:30:04,479 --> 01:30:08,960
to their increasingly patronizing message. Force will become necessary, and then,

1475
01:30:09,000 --> 01:30:12,640
as Oswald Spangler once put, it will come, will come

1476
01:30:12,680 --> 01:30:13,920
the hour of decision.

1477
01:30:14,319 --> 01:30:16,119
Speaker 2: Here I gotta read that last sentence for you man,

1478
01:30:16,319 --> 01:30:21,279
I gotta, I gotta force will become necessary, and then,

1479
01:30:22,000 --> 01:30:27,199
as Oswald Spangala once put, it will come Zallah of decision.

1480
01:30:28,359 --> 01:30:31,000
I was down in Austin recently and I was taking

1481
01:30:31,039 --> 01:30:35,159
an Uber ride and the driver was some Mexican guy

1482
01:30:35,159 --> 01:30:37,319
who looks really Mexican, and I have a little bit

1483
01:30:37,359 --> 01:30:42,800
of a Spanish and one of Austin's local disabled population.

1484
01:30:42,880 --> 01:30:44,960
You're doing a really weird thing with your background, like

1485
01:30:45,000 --> 01:30:50,000
your Internet. It's it's unerving. You know, this is actually

1486
01:30:50,039 --> 01:30:52,960
my house here, but you know the uh but I

1487
01:30:53,119 --> 01:30:54,800
like the what does it say on your shirt?

1488
01:30:55,359 --> 01:30:58,680
Speaker 1: It's a gas station shirt, it's from It's from Sun

1489
01:30:58,720 --> 01:31:03,560
Studios where all this record it used to be buildings.

1490
01:31:04,760 --> 01:31:08,520
Speaker 2: Anyway, Anyway, I'm in Austin and I'm talking to my

1491
01:31:08,920 --> 01:31:15,760
to my Uber driver in Spanish, and one of Austin's

1492
01:31:15,800 --> 01:31:21,439
local mentally disabled populations kind of drifts through the intersection

1493
01:31:21,560 --> 01:31:25,600
in this mildly leath away and you know, I just

1494
01:31:25,600 --> 01:31:31,119
said to this guy, I'm like, in Leveda, I'll go

1495
01:31:31,159 --> 01:31:41,279
on those bases. Quanto look sola plussybd dot for essay

1496
01:31:44,119 --> 01:31:50,560
it's left. Well, I don't, I don't. I don't think

1497
01:31:50,560 --> 01:31:53,000
you need my dad Spanish to understand that. I'm like,

1498
01:31:53,359 --> 01:31:57,319
it's left words. And he looks at me and he's like,

1499
01:31:57,840 --> 01:32:06,119
it's where gentle force, beautiful, happy force, you know, the

1500
01:32:06,159 --> 01:32:09,000
force of the surgeon and not the butcher, the force

1501
01:32:09,039 --> 01:32:12,800
that cleans and heels and you know, doesn't leave ugly

1502
01:32:12,840 --> 01:32:15,600
piles of bodies lying in the street, but force. Uh,

1503
01:32:15,800 --> 01:32:19,960
you know, I think that's the in a way, it's

1504
01:32:20,000 --> 01:32:24,279
like when you try to imagine a way out of

1505
01:32:24,359 --> 01:32:29,199
the solution of the armies of bureaucrats. It's not violence

1506
01:32:29,279 --> 01:32:32,000
that you need to imagine its force. And these are

1507
01:32:32,079 --> 01:32:35,439
very very different things. It wasn't violence that brought down

1508
01:32:36,039 --> 01:32:39,520
East Germany and had simply lost the force to cohere.

1509
01:32:39,680 --> 01:32:42,319
It was kind of just sucked almost like you know,

1510
01:32:42,399 --> 01:32:45,880
a planet being sucked into a black hole by West Germany.

1511
01:32:45,880 --> 01:32:52,279
We don't really have a West Germany. But the the

1512
01:32:52,319 --> 01:32:57,960
sense of basically this, you know, you can see how

1513
01:32:58,039 --> 01:33:00,920
prophetic he is in his sort of sense that basically

1514
01:33:01,359 --> 01:33:05,199
the kind of the core challenge is this loss of

1515
01:33:05,319 --> 01:33:09,880
faith and this loss of like respect for the mythological order,

1516
01:33:10,079 --> 01:33:12,680
and that sort of goes along with something that I

1517
01:33:12,720 --> 01:33:16,680
often say is kind of the correct definition of rightism,

1518
01:33:16,960 --> 01:33:20,359
which is really it's not a positive belief system at all,

1519
01:33:21,039 --> 01:33:25,000
it's just an absence of leftism. Leftism is a phenomenon

1520
01:33:25,039 --> 01:33:27,880
which you can study, you know, but the absence of

1521
01:33:27,960 --> 01:33:31,560
anything is not a phenomenon that can be studied. I

1522
01:33:31,600 --> 01:33:34,359
always compared to the word gentile, which doesn't refer to

1523
01:33:34,399 --> 01:33:38,119
a class of could be a Hindu, could be a Christian,

1524
01:33:38,199 --> 01:33:41,319
all we know is it's not a Jew. And you

1525
01:33:41,359 --> 01:33:44,319
can't say what are the qualities of gentiles? Whereas you know,

1526
01:33:44,439 --> 01:33:46,239
one could say that, I mean one shouldn't you know

1527
01:33:46,319 --> 01:33:50,159
about the Jews? Right, you know? And so the uh,

1528
01:33:51,239 --> 01:33:59,159
like the you know, the sense of basically abjuring the

1529
01:33:59,239 --> 01:34:03,680
sort of state religion is a much much clearer and

1530
01:34:03,920 --> 01:34:08,039
much much more important sense of dissent than like, you know,

1531
01:34:08,119 --> 01:34:10,039
remember when we were kids, people are like you say,

1532
01:34:10,119 --> 01:34:12,319
you know, I'm a capitalist, I'm a libertarian, I believe

1533
01:34:12,319 --> 01:34:15,000
in this, I'm a Christian. Right No, it's like, okay,

1534
01:34:15,039 --> 01:34:16,880
you can't believe in those things. Those they're fine things

1535
01:34:16,920 --> 01:34:19,199
to believe in. But what really brings all of you

1536
01:34:19,319 --> 01:34:22,840
dissonance together is that basically you don't believe the shit

1537
01:34:22,880 --> 01:34:28,279
that's on TV. And like actually reducing and moreover, there

1538
01:34:28,279 --> 01:34:32,359
aren't really very very good filters for like unofficial information.

1539
01:34:33,119 --> 01:34:37,359
So actually just like reducing your consumption of non official

1540
01:34:37,399 --> 01:34:39,920
information is not a bad thing as well, just like

1541
01:34:40,600 --> 01:34:43,279
keep your brain like empty and ready for service basically,

1542
01:34:44,960 --> 01:34:49,079
and like and and so there's a sense in which, basically,

1543
01:34:50,159 --> 01:34:55,399
you know, there's some apocalypse of something different that sweeps

1544
01:34:55,439 --> 01:34:59,520
these bureaucracies away. They can't be gradually reformed. And there's

1545
01:34:59,520 --> 01:35:02,319
also a sense that kind of the like the state

1546
01:35:02,439 --> 01:35:05,920
capacity that will come and do this is in the

1547
01:35:05,960 --> 01:35:10,119
private sector in a way, which is sort of why

1548
01:35:08,960 --> 01:35:14,680
the kind of unification of bureaucrats and managers is so misleading.

1549
01:35:14,800 --> 01:35:20,079
It's like when you look at, for example, the Obamacare

1550
01:35:20,159 --> 01:35:24,359
healthcare sign up shut site, which I harp on. At first,

1551
01:35:24,359 --> 01:35:26,439
they tried doing it with bureaucrats, and many of those

1552
01:35:26,479 --> 01:35:28,760
bureaucrats were in the private sector, because it's the way

1553
01:35:28,840 --> 01:35:32,600
DC's Beltway Bandit contracting system works. They basically were like,

1554
01:35:32,680 --> 01:35:35,439
we just spent hundreds of millions of dollars trying to

1555
01:35:35,439 --> 01:35:38,560
do this thing with bureaucrats. Let's give up, let's do

1556
01:35:38,600 --> 01:35:41,039
it with managers instead. And they did it with managers

1557
01:35:41,039 --> 01:35:43,000
in it cost a few million dollars in a few weeks,

1558
01:35:43,479 --> 01:35:48,239
and so like there's a really radical difference in competence

1559
01:35:48,279 --> 01:35:51,560
there that maybe wasn't necessarily there in Burnham's day, and

1560
01:35:51,640 --> 01:35:55,239
like the difference has only grown greater and like more important,

1561
01:35:55,479 --> 01:35:58,720
and you're just really really lucky to be living in

1562
01:35:58,880 --> 01:36:01,840
a country that does have this, I mean, capitalism, especially

1563
01:36:01,920 --> 01:36:04,560
all startup you know, any kind of highlight dynamic area

1564
01:36:04,680 --> 01:36:07,479
of capitalism is kind of a school for kings in

1565
01:36:07,520 --> 01:36:10,479
a way. It's a school that basically teaches, you know,

1566
01:36:11,479 --> 01:36:14,319
you know, a non trivial number of like very capable

1567
01:36:14,399 --> 01:36:18,560
human beings to basically organize a large number of other people,

1568
01:36:18,960 --> 01:36:21,800
up to tens or even hundreds of thousands on a

1569
01:36:21,840 --> 01:36:26,159
single task. And if you compare, you know, let's imagine

1570
01:36:26,720 --> 01:36:30,600
imagine that, you know, people are like Afghanistan the graveyard

1571
01:36:30,600 --> 01:36:33,560
of empires. You're like, okay, sure, imagine that if you

1572
01:36:33,640 --> 01:36:37,479
basically took the management structure of Apple and you gave

1573
01:36:37,520 --> 01:36:41,039
Afghanistan to Apple, and you were like Tim Cook, your

1574
01:36:41,079 --> 01:36:45,199
new name shall be Khan, Tim Cook and Tim Khan maybe,

1575
01:36:45,279 --> 01:36:50,079
and you shall do with Afghanistan as you will, And

1576
01:36:50,479 --> 01:36:52,359
you got to conquer the place first, because we fucked

1577
01:36:52,399 --> 01:36:54,399
it up so badly that the Afghans are back in church.

1578
01:36:54,479 --> 01:36:57,439
But you know, the do with Afghanistan as you will.

1579
01:36:57,680 --> 01:36:59,560
Let's see where you are in twenty years. And then

1580
01:36:59,600 --> 01:37:03,399
you said to the people who to try to, I

1581
01:37:03,399 --> 01:37:07,760
guess not conquered, but of course liberate Afghanistan. You will

1582
01:37:07,800 --> 01:37:09,960
be like, you're now in charge of liberating Apple. You're

1583
01:37:10,039 --> 01:37:12,680
the new management of Apple. Let's see how far you

1584
01:37:12,720 --> 01:37:14,720
get with that. And you know, then we'll take a

1585
01:37:14,800 --> 01:37:17,680
look at our like iPhones in twenty years, and are

1586
01:37:17,720 --> 01:37:23,439
Afghanistan in twenty years, And I'm betting that basically probably

1587
01:37:23,479 --> 01:37:26,560
the iPhone would be outsold by something made in Afghanistan

1588
01:37:27,000 --> 01:37:32,279
and designed in Afghanistan and the like. And so this

1589
01:37:32,319 --> 01:37:36,279
is this huge disparity in competence is one of the

1590
01:37:36,319 --> 01:37:40,199
things that Burnham wrote about when he wrote about revolutions.

1591
01:37:40,199 --> 01:37:42,399
It's like there's sort of no obvious way for this

1592
01:37:42,520 --> 01:37:46,960
competence to switch over and instead of you know, affecting

1593
01:37:47,079 --> 01:37:50,600
just oney tiny new website of a government, to be like, no,

1594
01:37:50,640 --> 01:37:53,239
we're actually going to do the whole thing the Silicon

1595
01:37:53,319 --> 01:37:56,039
Valley way. But once you do that, just like you know,

1596
01:37:56,119 --> 01:37:58,399
it'll be like the end of inception. Like buildings will

1597
01:37:58,439 --> 01:38:00,840
be sliding into the sea everywhere, you know, and nobody

1598
01:38:00,840 --> 01:38:03,880
will get hurt, and you don't need to hurt these bureaucrats.

1599
01:38:03,920 --> 01:38:07,279
These are not violent people, right, think about it, you fire.

1600
01:38:07,359 --> 01:38:09,600
You know, one of my favorite you know, policies which

1601
01:38:09,600 --> 01:38:11,880
I point to it, you know anytime I can is

1602
01:38:12,079 --> 01:38:16,039
just dissolve the American Empire by basically laying off the

1603
01:38:16,039 --> 01:38:20,159
State Department and bring all the embassy's home, close the

1604
01:38:20,159 --> 01:38:22,720
t rooman buildings, shut the whole thing down. Okay, you've

1605
01:38:22,720 --> 01:38:26,680
got fifty thousand people who work for this organization, you know,

1606
01:38:26,840 --> 01:38:29,840
fifty thousand people. You know, how many divisions is that

1607
01:38:29,920 --> 01:38:33,560
in army terms? Is that five divisions? Like you think

1608
01:38:33,600 --> 01:38:35,560
about this and you're like, holy shit, this is a menace.

1609
01:38:35,920 --> 01:38:38,880
These are like laid off you know, FS four's or whatever,

1610
01:38:39,000 --> 01:38:42,119
could like, you know, seize Georgetown, and having seized Georgetown,

1611
01:38:42,159 --> 01:38:46,319
they'd set up picket lines. And then there's just like nah,

1612
01:38:46,479 --> 01:38:49,920
I know, these people both go home, right, both tender gardens. Right.

1613
01:38:50,079 --> 01:38:55,039
There's fifty thousand people, probably seven hundred of them on

1614
01:38:55,199 --> 01:38:58,000
a gun, and you know, two hundred of them have

1615
01:38:58,079 --> 01:39:02,000
ever been in a fistfight, and and you know three

1616
01:39:02,079 --> 01:39:05,720
of them have ever killed someone, you know, and and

1617
01:39:05,720 --> 01:39:09,039
and like you know, I mean Actually, that's the great

1618
01:39:09,079 --> 01:39:11,960
thing about this sort of late stage bureaucracy is that

1619
01:39:12,720 --> 01:39:16,039
actually it could just be pushed. It's humpty dumpty. It

1620
01:39:16,079 --> 01:39:18,039
can just be pushed off the wall and it'll just

1621
01:39:18,079 --> 01:39:22,680
fall and people don't understand that at all. But yeah,

1622
01:39:22,720 --> 01:39:26,159
that's my rant. Was that enough ranting at James Burnham?

1623
01:39:26,640 --> 01:39:31,319
It was beautiful Viva Niva, Niva the gay Italian dude,

1624
01:39:31,840 --> 01:39:36,600
Nima the gay Italian porn star. Yeah, that's right, that's right,

1625
01:39:36,680 --> 01:39:39,039
that's right, that's right. He's hung like he's hung, He's

1626
01:39:39,079 --> 01:39:45,560
hung like a cassowary. But all right, give you plugs.

1627
01:39:47,199 --> 01:39:50,920
I'm Curtis Jarvin. I write a gray mirror. I'm usually

1628
01:39:50,920 --> 01:39:54,199
not this vulgar, and that's gray mirror at dot substack

1629
01:39:54,239 --> 01:39:56,840
dot com. That's grey when with an a the American way.

1630
01:39:57,279 --> 01:40:00,479
And thank you so much for having me on. And

1631
01:40:00,600 --> 01:40:03,119
let's do this skin sometime. Thank you, Curtis.

1632
01:40:03,119 --> 01:40:06,880
Speaker 1: Take care, all right, tutt I want to welcome everyone

1633
01:40:06,920 --> 01:40:10,319
back to the Peginiana Show, returning Evelyn.

1634
01:40:10,359 --> 01:40:12,079
Speaker 5: How are you doing ohm good?

1635
01:40:12,560 --> 01:40:14,920
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me on, No problem.

1636
01:40:14,960 --> 01:40:19,239
Speaker 1: We are here to do chapter eight in the Populous Delusion.

1637
01:40:19,640 --> 01:40:23,920
It's called Elites and ideology, and it concentrates on the

1638
01:40:23,960 --> 01:40:25,239
teachings of Samuel T.

1639
01:40:25,439 --> 01:40:26,000
Speaker 2: Francis.

1640
01:40:26,920 --> 01:40:29,199
Speaker 1: You're pretty familiar with Sam, right.

1641
01:40:30,279 --> 01:40:33,119
Speaker 5: Oh, yes, But my experience with Sam Francis, I think

1642
01:40:33,199 --> 01:40:36,680
is a bit I did it backwards, so I wasn't

1643
01:40:36,720 --> 01:40:39,079
really familiar with him as the as a writer for

1644
01:40:39,199 --> 01:40:43,199
I think it was National Review and the other outlet

1645
01:40:43,279 --> 01:40:45,520
that I think it was Buchanan run for a while

1646
01:40:45,520 --> 01:40:47,680
that he wrote for, and I knew, I know he

1647
01:40:47,680 --> 01:40:49,760
wrote for some more kind of radical fringe stuff as well,

1648
01:40:49,840 --> 01:40:53,800
right from the like the eighties through the nineties, and

1649
01:40:53,880 --> 01:40:56,159
I've latterly can have found that stuff. But for me

1650
01:40:56,439 --> 01:40:58,880
it was I think I was listening to some I

1651
01:40:58,880 --> 01:41:01,319
think it was Edward well Shannink, the guy now that's

1652
01:41:01,359 --> 01:41:04,399
one of the editors for the Chronicles magazine, and he

1653
01:41:04,520 --> 01:41:06,279
was on somebody's stream. I think it might have even

1654
01:41:06,359 --> 01:41:08,720
be one academic Agents or something, and he was like, Oh,

1655
01:41:08,880 --> 01:41:10,600
what's the one book You've got to read there? The

1656
01:41:10,720 --> 01:41:12,840
question was something that he was like, Sam Francis is

1657
01:41:12,920 --> 01:41:16,159
Levi Ethan and its Enemies. And I thought that's interesting.

1658
01:41:16,199 --> 01:41:19,039
I'll give that a read and bought this big paper

1659
01:41:19,399 --> 01:41:24,800
paperback hard back eight hundred and forty page tome, having

1660
01:41:24,840 --> 01:41:27,560
only just been slightly familiar with Burning before it, so

1661
01:41:27,600 --> 01:41:30,039
I really dip myself in the deep end. But it's

1662
01:41:30,079 --> 01:41:32,279
been one of those books, but like some of the

1663
01:41:32,279 --> 01:41:35,399
really good Austrian works, where I'm always coming back to it.

1664
01:41:36,000 --> 01:41:39,239
Anything I'm looking at tangentially, I'm always like, well, did

1665
01:41:39,279 --> 01:41:41,680
Sam Francis mention something about this? And more often than

1666
01:41:41,680 --> 01:41:43,720
not he normally does. He has the same sort of

1667
01:41:43,720 --> 01:41:47,640
ability as Rothbard to sort of see through time, as

1668
01:41:47,680 --> 01:41:47,960
it were.

1669
01:41:49,640 --> 01:41:52,239
Speaker 1: It'd be really good to get a PDF and be

1670
01:41:52,319 --> 01:41:55,399
able to search it for things, because I've looked for

1671
01:41:55,520 --> 01:41:57,279
I've looked online for a PDF of it and I

1672
01:41:57,319 --> 01:41:57,880
can't find it.

1673
01:41:58,520 --> 01:42:00,359
Speaker 5: I think I have one. I can say to you,

1674
01:42:00,680 --> 01:42:01,119
all right.

1675
01:42:01,039 --> 01:42:01,520
Speaker 2: That's cool.

1676
01:42:02,000 --> 01:42:05,600
Speaker 1: You send us your telegram, all right. So the way

1677
01:42:05,600 --> 01:42:08,039
we've done the way I'm doing this with everyone, I'm

1678
01:42:08,039 --> 01:42:12,159
gonna read it, stop me anytime to comment, and we'll

1679
01:42:12,199 --> 01:42:12,840
just go from there.

1680
01:42:13,359 --> 01:42:13,800
Speaker 2: All right.

1681
01:42:13,920 --> 01:42:18,800
Speaker 1: You can interrupt me. Even a AA was interrupting me

1682
01:42:18,880 --> 01:42:21,079
mid sentence and it was fine, you know.

1683
01:42:21,319 --> 01:42:24,039
Speaker 5: As his book, after all, I suppose it was literally

1684
01:42:24,079 --> 01:42:26,680
interrupting himself. And I've wrote the boatway, I'm sure that's

1685
01:42:26,680 --> 01:42:28,880
how he rationalized it.

1686
01:42:29,479 --> 01:42:31,680
Speaker 1: All right, let's get this up on the screen for people.

1687
01:42:32,760 --> 01:42:36,399
All right, I'm gonna start reading Chapter eight, Elites and Ideology.

1688
01:42:37,600 --> 01:42:38,079
Speaker 2: Samuel T.

1689
01:42:38,159 --> 01:42:40,960
Speaker 1: Francis appears to have written Leviathan and Its Enemies in

1690
01:42:41,039 --> 01:42:45,079
nineteen ninety one, because this is when he dated its preface.

1691
01:42:45,840 --> 01:42:48,920
He did not publish it during his lifetime. He died

1692
01:42:48,960 --> 01:42:50,640
in two thousand and five, and it was found by

1693
01:42:50,680 --> 01:42:53,960
Jerry Woodruff, who was given a box of three and

1694
01:42:53,960 --> 01:42:56,920
a half inch computer floppy disks, one of which was

1695
01:42:57,000 --> 01:43:01,560
labeled in Sam's handwriting Leviathan and It's Enems Complete, dated

1696
01:43:01,800 --> 01:43:06,079
three twenty seven, nineteen ninety five and containing word perfect

1697
01:43:06,119 --> 01:43:11,359
five point one text files. It was published in twenty sixteen.

1698
01:43:12,279 --> 01:43:15,319
Francis had been a firebrand paleo conservative journalist who wrote

1699
01:43:15,359 --> 01:43:19,119
regularly regular syndicated columns as well as speeches.

1700
01:43:20,239 --> 01:43:22,359
Speaker 5: It's one of the things I've I really took on

1701
01:43:22,439 --> 01:43:25,760
from being at the mess Institute the other week. Thank God,

1702
01:43:25,800 --> 01:43:28,720
there are people who when these sort of writers that

1703
01:43:28,760 --> 01:43:32,319
we venerate pass, does someone make sure to go through

1704
01:43:32,359 --> 01:43:36,359
the stuff, Because from what I've seen and heard, and

1705
01:43:36,399 --> 01:43:39,039
I've obviously read the big preface and stuff, myself to

1706
01:43:39,079 --> 01:43:42,720
the book. No one, you never told anyone about it

1707
01:43:42,920 --> 01:43:45,159
or anything. Really, it would just it would have died

1708
01:43:45,199 --> 01:43:47,600
with him and we'd never have that book. Could it

1709
01:43:47,720 --> 01:43:50,760
not been for you know, Jerry Woodruff, he are going

1710
01:43:50,800 --> 01:43:54,199
through Sam Francis's old stuff just to see what you

1711
01:43:54,239 --> 01:43:55,439
had lying around.

1712
01:43:56,239 --> 01:44:01,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and talking about the mesas Institute Newman figuring

1713
01:44:01,600 --> 01:44:06,600
out Murray Rothbard's handwriting for conceived in Liberty, chapter volume

1714
01:44:06,680 --> 01:44:10,760
five for the progressive era. Yeah, I mean, these are

1715
01:44:10,800 --> 01:44:13,760
things that were just I guess he didn't tell anybody

1716
01:44:13,760 --> 01:44:16,159
he was writing of them, and then they're just found

1717
01:44:16,279 --> 01:44:19,560
years later. So thankfully, thankfully someone found him.

1718
01:44:19,600 --> 01:44:20,880
Speaker 2: So all right.

1719
01:44:22,479 --> 01:44:25,000
Speaker 1: It was first published in twenty sixteen. Francis had been

1720
01:44:25,039 --> 01:44:29,199
a firebrand paleo conservative journalist who wrote regular syndicated columns

1721
01:44:29,199 --> 01:44:31,880
as well as speeches for Pat Buchanan. He was an

1722
01:44:31,920 --> 01:44:35,239
early victim of canceled culture for his politically incorrect statements

1723
01:44:35,279 --> 01:44:38,840
about race, and was fired by The Washington Times after

1724
01:44:38,920 --> 01:44:43,840
an attack by the neo conservative Denesh Desuza. He was

1725
01:44:43,880 --> 01:44:47,760
known for his sharp analytical insights, blistering rhetorical style, and

1726
01:44:47,800 --> 01:44:53,720
a barbed wit. Posthumously posthumously, he was blamed or praised,

1727
01:44:53,760 --> 01:44:56,520
depending on who was writing as the intellectual basis for

1728
01:44:56,560 --> 01:45:01,520
the rise of Donald Trump, whatever traverses surrounded him in life,

1729
01:45:01,600 --> 01:45:04,960
Intellectual history will record Francis as a much more important

1730
01:45:04,960 --> 01:45:09,279
and influential thinker than Desuza or any neo conservative writer

1731
01:45:09,399 --> 01:45:13,560
at the National Review. However, Eliathan and its Enemies features

1732
01:45:13,560 --> 01:45:17,239
none of Francis's signature colemics, and it is written in

1733
01:45:17,279 --> 01:45:20,479
a more coally analytical mode.

1734
01:45:21,119 --> 01:45:25,000
Speaker 5: Again, I really like the constantly bashing Desuza and just

1735
01:45:25,079 --> 01:45:28,279
never letting people forget that that happened. But as I

1736
01:45:28,319 --> 01:45:32,760
always think, it's strange when the left picks, you know,

1737
01:45:32,840 --> 01:45:35,880
these sort of almost somewhat obscure and kind of dead

1738
01:45:35,960 --> 01:45:40,279
thinkers on the right sometimes is the key influence for

1739
01:45:40,760 --> 01:45:43,640
X thing happening? You know, in the case you're Donald Trump.

1740
01:45:44,119 --> 01:45:46,279
How many of us would maybe not have got round

1741
01:45:46,319 --> 01:45:48,399
to reading Sam Francis if it wasn't for the fact

1742
01:45:48,399 --> 01:45:49,279
that this was claimed.

1743
01:45:50,319 --> 01:45:53,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, for as much as they love power and they are,

1744
01:45:55,319 --> 01:45:58,800
they are conniving sometimes it really does come back to

1745
01:45:58,840 --> 01:45:59,720
bite them in the ass.

1746
01:46:01,600 --> 01:46:03,720
Speaker 5: So all right, so they've never heard of the streis

1747
01:46:03,800 --> 01:46:04,640
on the fact.

1748
01:46:04,880 --> 01:46:09,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, Francis had long been a protege of James Burnham,

1749
01:46:09,000 --> 01:46:11,880
having written a monograph on him in nineteen eighty four

1750
01:46:12,159 --> 01:46:15,239
that was republished in nineteen ninety nine. Leviathan and its

1751
01:46:15,359 --> 01:46:18,359
Enemies can largely be read as a nineteen nineties update

1752
01:46:18,399 --> 01:46:22,319
of the Managerial Revolution. Francis had fully internalized the thought

1753
01:46:22,359 --> 01:46:24,920
of the elite theorists and of his mentor, and much

1754
01:46:24,920 --> 01:46:28,399
of the book covers terrain that we have already traversed. Thus,

1755
01:46:28,479 --> 01:46:31,960
what is of interests us here is what Francis adds

1756
01:46:32,000 --> 01:46:35,800
to Burnham, or else where he disagrees with him. One

1757
01:46:35,800 --> 01:46:39,119
important dimension of Leviathan and its Enemies is that it

1758
01:46:39,199 --> 01:46:41,960
has the benefit of fifty years of hindsight since Burnham

1759
01:46:42,000 --> 01:46:45,600
wrote The Managerial Revolution, during which time many objections were

1760
01:46:45,640 --> 01:46:50,800
raised against the managerial thesis. After restating Burnham's central arguments

1761
01:46:50,800 --> 01:46:53,960
at some length, Francis devotes considerable space to dealing with

1762
01:46:54,000 --> 01:46:56,960
the chief counter arguments that were raised since nineteen forty one.

1763
01:46:58,520 --> 01:47:02,279
The foremost of these came from Wright Mills, whose book

1764
01:47:02,399 --> 01:47:06,039
The Power Elite, published in nineteen fifty six, constituted the

1765
01:47:06,199 --> 01:47:11,159
main left wing rebuttal to Burnham. The chief contention was

1766
01:47:11,199 --> 01:47:16,159
that although the managerial function undoubtedly exists. Propertied elites maintain

1767
01:47:16,199 --> 01:47:20,600
a controlling ownership over firms. For example, you got anything

1768
01:47:20,640 --> 01:47:21,600
to say, Well.

1769
01:47:21,520 --> 01:47:23,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, this is I mean, it gets slightly further into

1770
01:47:23,920 --> 01:47:26,159
a different point, but it is something I'd always considered,

1771
01:47:26,199 --> 01:47:28,399
and I think it's also something Burnham touches on at

1772
01:47:28,399 --> 01:47:33,119
one point, where there is almost a sort of democratizing

1773
01:47:33,159 --> 01:47:38,000
effect that happens in major industries as they become legislated

1774
01:47:38,039 --> 01:47:41,840
to the point where by for either because of getting

1775
01:47:41,840 --> 01:47:44,720
around legislations or trying to have a bigger market cap

1776
01:47:44,880 --> 01:47:47,600
or whatever excuse to give for it, they basically have

1777
01:47:47,680 --> 01:47:51,119
to sell elements of the company off to the public

1778
01:47:51,560 --> 01:47:54,760
and then the public elects a board to run the company.

1779
01:47:55,000 --> 01:47:56,399
So there isn't you know, as He's going to go

1780
01:47:56,439 --> 01:47:59,760
on here and describe Forward as a sort of owner

1781
01:48:00,079 --> 01:48:04,920
or owner entrepreneur sort of character where he and I

1782
01:48:04,920 --> 01:48:07,399
think it even relates to point the next quote really well,

1783
01:48:07,760 --> 01:48:09,720
when he built a factory, he had to homestead it.

1784
01:48:09,800 --> 01:48:11,760
He had to think logistically about how it was going

1785
01:48:11,800 --> 01:48:15,319
to integrate into a local economy, and a way where

1786
01:48:15,359 --> 01:48:18,840
someone who's just you know, on the managerial board of

1787
01:48:18,880 --> 01:48:21,199
Forward nowadays doesn't have to give to hurt some of

1788
01:48:21,239 --> 01:48:23,800
that because the as what we're going to get into

1789
01:48:23,840 --> 01:48:25,880
and describe a little bit, the revolution of massive scale

1790
01:48:25,880 --> 01:48:30,239
has already happened. So they enjoyed democratized industry as opposed

1791
01:48:30,279 --> 01:48:34,159
to the sort of homesteading, entrepreneurial and entrepreneurial industry you

1792
01:48:34,159 --> 01:48:36,279
would have had even in the turn of the century.

1793
01:48:37,279 --> 01:48:41,399
Speaker 1: But even so in Burnham, in manager or in manager

1794
01:48:41,520 --> 01:48:44,359
or Revolution, some of the things that he says about

1795
01:48:44,359 --> 01:48:50,199
corporations really hadn't come true yet. You know, Jarvin talked

1796
01:48:50,239 --> 01:48:53,399
about how it's it almost seemed like he was projecting

1797
01:48:53,399 --> 01:48:57,199
some of his trotsky I passed onto corporations at the time,

1798
01:48:57,239 --> 01:49:01,439
where corporations really hadn't at that point fall into managerialism.

1799
01:49:01,720 --> 01:49:05,000
It was more like a it was more like a

1800
01:49:05,000 --> 01:49:09,079
foreshadowing when you look at it. I mean, they still

1801
01:49:09,560 --> 01:49:12,199
most corporations at that time were still pretty top down

1802
01:49:12,239 --> 01:49:13,279
in nineteen forty one.

1803
01:49:14,000 --> 01:49:15,279
Speaker 2: So all right.

1804
01:49:16,239 --> 01:49:19,279
Speaker 1: For example, when I discussed Burnham, I used the example

1805
01:49:19,279 --> 01:49:21,640
of the Ford Motor Company of a firm transitioning from

1806
01:49:21,640 --> 01:49:25,239
the entrepreneurial to the managerial. However, as I noted, the

1807
01:49:25,279 --> 01:49:28,439
Ford family maintains to this Day a forty percent stake

1808
01:49:28,479 --> 01:49:32,520
in the company. In addition, William clay Ford Junior, the

1809
01:49:32,560 --> 01:49:36,079
great grandson of the founder, currently serves as executive chairman,

1810
01:49:36,159 --> 01:49:41,159
having previously acted as President, CEO and COO. Mills argues,

1811
01:49:41,199 --> 01:49:43,760
therefore that there is no distinct break with the old

1812
01:49:43,800 --> 01:49:47,800
regime of entrepreneurial elites, and thus Burnham's managerial revolution is

1813
01:49:47,800 --> 01:49:51,359
a mirage. Burnham would argue that in the case of

1814
01:49:51,399 --> 01:49:54,840
William clay Ford Junior, he trained as a managerial elite,

1815
01:49:54,840 --> 01:49:58,119
having attended Princeton and MIT, and is thus a professional

1816
01:49:58,119 --> 01:50:02,520
manager whose roles have been literally interchangeable with executives from

1817
01:50:02,560 --> 01:50:08,439
Boeing and elsewhere who do not carry the Ford name. Francis, however, argues,

1818
01:50:09,319 --> 01:50:14,199
it is largely irre Quoting Francis, it is largely irrelevant

1819
01:50:14,239 --> 01:50:18,520
whether the property illite acquires managerial skills, takes an active

1820
01:50:18,560 --> 01:50:22,319
part in managing corporate enterprise, or has assimilated non propertied

1821
01:50:22,319 --> 01:50:26,079
elite managers into its own class and interests. What Mills

1822
01:50:26,119 --> 01:50:29,920
and his disciple, William G. Dumoff and their school do

1823
01:50:30,039 --> 01:50:33,920
not sufficiently perceive or appreciate thoroughly is that the interests

1824
01:50:33,960 --> 01:50:37,479
of the property elite have changed substantially with the revolution

1825
01:50:37,600 --> 01:50:41,640
of mass and scale. The propertied elite or grand bourgeois

1826
01:50:42,039 --> 01:50:45,640
of the bourgeois order. Of the bourgeois order may not

1827
01:50:45,760 --> 01:50:49,840
have changed significantly in family composition, and certainly it retains

1828
01:50:49,880 --> 01:50:53,760
wealth and status. Its economic interests, however, have changed from

1829
01:50:53,760 --> 01:50:56,960
being vested in the hard property of privately owned and

1830
01:50:57,039 --> 01:51:02,439
operated entrepreneurial firms, usually comparatively smaller scale, to being intertwined

1831
01:51:02,479 --> 01:51:06,920
with and dependent upon the de materialized property of publicly owned,

1832
01:51:07,119 --> 01:51:13,479
state integrated managerial, managerially operated mass corporations.

1833
01:51:14,079 --> 01:51:18,680
Speaker 5: It's a word salad, but it's brilliant, and I very

1834
01:51:18,720 --> 01:51:23,199
much like the point that both Francis and Burnham heavily

1835
01:51:23,279 --> 01:51:27,319
focus on and sort of almost as them channeling a

1836
01:51:27,359 --> 01:51:31,359
bit of Kazinski or Alul when they really heavily narrow

1837
01:51:31,439 --> 01:51:33,840
in on the revolution of mass and scale, and that

1838
01:51:35,760 --> 01:51:39,079
not one is of course a fundamental prerequisite for you

1839
01:51:39,159 --> 01:51:41,640
to have the managerial class, otherwise there'd be no role

1840
01:51:41,680 --> 01:51:46,920
for them in society. But furthermore that that fundamentally changes

1841
01:51:47,000 --> 01:51:51,359
the incentives of human behavior, not just in a universal sense,

1842
01:51:51,399 --> 01:51:53,399
but up and down the chain when it comes to

1843
01:51:53,520 --> 01:51:56,760
people who are elites or people who are not their

1844
01:51:56,800 --> 01:52:00,000
incentive structures are not as they wear when say, for example,

1845
01:52:00,119 --> 01:52:04,279
the principles of classical liberalism were not out and the

1846
01:52:04,319 --> 01:52:07,520
seventeen hundreds or eighteen hundreds as much different than to

1847
01:52:07,560 --> 01:52:10,520
look at, especially as Francis looks on, you know, not

1848
01:52:10,640 --> 01:52:14,000
just the start of post war sort of consensus liberalism,

1849
01:52:14,000 --> 01:52:17,840
but towards its end and the turning of the millennium.

1850
01:52:18,000 --> 01:52:20,359
Speaker 1: In other words, whether or not a man of the

1851
01:52:20,399 --> 01:52:23,319
propertied elite, such as William clay Ford Junior takes an

1852
01:52:23,359 --> 01:52:27,239
active or passive role, his interests are now synonymous with

1853
01:52:27,279 --> 01:52:30,960
the managerial regime, while those of his great grandfather were

1854
01:52:31,000 --> 01:52:34,880
in many respects antagonistic to it. Francis argues that a

1855
01:52:34,960 --> 01:52:38,039
family such as the Fords are now entirely dependent on

1856
01:52:38,159 --> 01:52:43,000
managerial capitalism for their continued existence as property elites, and

1857
01:52:43,079 --> 01:52:47,359
are thus, in the final analysis, subordinated to the system.

1858
01:52:47,680 --> 01:52:51,840
The propertied elite, the grand bourgeoisie thus do not retain

1859
01:52:51,880 --> 01:52:55,119
an economic interest in acting as the leader of the

1860
01:52:55,159 --> 01:53:00,560
bourgeois order and define and defending its ideologies, values and itsitutions.

1861
01:53:01,159 --> 01:53:05,159
It's material interest push it towards defending the complex of

1862
01:53:05,239 --> 01:53:06,600
managerial interests.

1863
01:53:07,279 --> 01:53:07,479
Speaker 3: See.

1864
01:53:07,520 --> 01:53:09,680
Speaker 5: I think this is sort of where you can almost

1865
01:53:09,720 --> 01:53:13,880
see the influence that Rothbard had on Francis, where he's

1866
01:53:13,920 --> 01:53:15,960
almost sort of discussing here that you know, in that

1867
01:53:16,119 --> 01:53:21,520
very basic economic sense, if you promote business by subsidy

1868
01:53:21,640 --> 01:53:25,840
and cronyism, then you'll get more business by cronyism and subsidy.

1869
01:53:26,119 --> 01:53:30,840
Whereas if business is just fueled by entrepreneurial elites, then

1870
01:53:30,880 --> 01:53:34,119
they will want to spread and recruit other entrepreneurial elites

1871
01:53:34,399 --> 01:53:36,920
and creates. You know, if you if you pay for

1872
01:53:36,960 --> 01:53:38,319
more of it, you're going to get more of it,

1873
01:53:38,319 --> 01:53:39,640
If you pay for less of it, you're going to

1874
01:53:39,680 --> 01:53:42,199
get less of it, and that that continues and compounds.

1875
01:53:43,239 --> 01:53:46,319
Speaker 1: Then, of course, though is if you're those managed, those

1876
01:53:46,479 --> 01:53:50,520
entrepreneurial elites are not people who run companies, so you're

1877
01:53:50,560 --> 01:53:52,720
going to have to hire people to run your company,

1878
01:53:52,960 --> 01:53:55,079
and that's when the managerial elites come in.

1879
01:53:56,119 --> 01:53:58,119
Speaker 5: But that's that is of course a consequence of the

1880
01:53:58,159 --> 01:53:59,520
revolution of mass and scale.

1881
01:53:59,760 --> 01:54:04,960
Speaker 1: Yes, all right, yeah, it's great when you read Francis

1882
01:54:04,960 --> 01:54:09,520
because he didn't know his economics, so all right, this

1883
01:54:09,560 --> 01:54:12,800
perfectly explains why virtually none of the so called grenden

1884
01:54:12,840 --> 01:54:16,159
bourgeoisie have taken a firm stance against what is today

1885
01:54:16,199 --> 01:54:20,239
called woke capitalism, whether they are propertied elites or not.

1886
01:54:20,479 --> 01:54:23,600
Executives who dare take a stance against the office managerial

1887
01:54:23,640 --> 01:54:27,479
ideology are quickly removed, as was the case with Tripwire

1888
01:54:27,600 --> 01:54:31,359
Interactive CEO and co founder John Gibson, who was forced

1889
01:54:31,359 --> 01:54:34,199
to step down just fifty three hours after tweeting his

1890
01:54:34,279 --> 01:54:39,880
support for a ban on abortion in Texas. Similarly, John Shatner,

1891
01:54:40,119 --> 01:54:43,560
the founder of the Papa John's pizza chain and a billionaire,

1892
01:54:43,920 --> 01:54:46,279
was forced out of his own company by the board

1893
01:54:46,319 --> 01:54:50,079
after making racially insensitive comments on a conference call in

1894
01:54:50,119 --> 01:54:55,720
twenty eighteen. And let's just remember that he was just repeating,

1895
01:54:56,159 --> 01:54:59,640
like he was quoting. He wasn't like giving his opinion,

1896
01:54:59,680 --> 01:55:00,920
he was quoting something.

1897
01:55:01,399 --> 01:55:04,880
Speaker 5: And is this a new version of the high middle

1898
01:55:04,960 --> 01:55:10,520
low dynamic? You offend the great saints of progressive ideology.

1899
01:55:10,560 --> 01:55:14,840
And for that, you, as the middling CEO, co founder

1900
01:55:14,880 --> 01:55:20,239
your businesses rejected this disempowered so that the low progressive

1901
01:55:20,359 --> 01:55:24,560
causes of whatever charity or group or Bank of America

1902
01:55:24,600 --> 01:55:27,119
or whoever, as it's pushing hr policy and your work

1903
01:55:27,159 --> 01:55:28,720
can feel good about themselves.

1904
01:55:30,239 --> 01:55:33,159
Speaker 1: Brendan Ike was forced to resign after only eleven days

1905
01:55:33,159 --> 01:55:35,720
a CEO of Mozilla when it was found he had

1906
01:55:35,760 --> 01:55:39,119
donated to a political campaign against gay marriage, and employees

1907
01:55:39,199 --> 01:55:42,479
launched a social media campaign to oust him. I might

1908
01:55:42,520 --> 01:55:46,199
continue listing examples such as these almost indefinitely, but there

1909
01:55:46,199 --> 01:55:48,680
can be no doubt that Burnham and Francis are correct,

1910
01:55:48,800 --> 01:55:52,680
while Mills and Damof are wrong about whether power finally

1911
01:55:52,760 --> 01:55:55,159
rests in the hands of the managers or the owners.

1912
01:55:55,880 --> 01:55:59,239
The managers have privacy. If an owner does not adhere

1913
01:55:59,319 --> 01:56:02,439
to manage your ideology, if the company in any way

1914
01:56:03,000 --> 01:56:07,000
depends on managerial capitalism, they will find themselves removed in

1915
01:56:07,119 --> 01:56:12,319
short order. The second objection to Burnham with which Francis

1916
01:56:12,319 --> 01:56:15,800
deals is the idea that the managerial elites are not unified,

1917
01:56:16,039 --> 01:56:20,359
but rather a plurality. In fact, such objections were also

1918
01:56:20,439 --> 01:56:24,000
applied to the work of Mills and his followers. Francis

1919
01:56:24,039 --> 01:56:26,439
had in mind the work of Robert Dahl, David Truman,

1920
01:56:26,760 --> 01:56:30,800
John Kenneth Galbreth, David Reisman, and Arnold dem Rose. As

1921
01:56:30,840 --> 01:56:33,920
we have seen, Francis largely deals with this by acknowledging

1922
01:56:33,960 --> 01:56:38,079
that while entry into the elite is possible, its narrow

1923
01:56:38,119 --> 01:56:44,119
and exclusively managerial character, which emphasizes special qualifications and skills

1924
01:56:44,439 --> 01:56:47,359
and practice, gives it a uniformity that is rare in history.

1925
01:56:47,880 --> 01:56:52,359
He points out, citing Mosca, that the old capitalists, entrepreneurial regime,

1926
01:56:52,640 --> 01:56:55,680
and even the old feudal system were much more diverse

1927
01:56:55,720 --> 01:56:58,000
in terms of the makeup of the ruling class.

1928
01:56:58,640 --> 01:57:03,039
Speaker 5: It seems to almost be more heavily drawing on Alul here.

1929
01:57:03,119 --> 01:57:06,000
It's quite funny actually, if you read the preface to

1930
01:57:06,039 --> 01:57:11,079
Alul's Technological Society, which was written in fifty four and

1931
01:57:11,119 --> 01:57:15,359
I believe the managerial Revolution is forty one, yes, correctly so.

1932
01:57:15,399 --> 01:57:18,000
But in that he's sort of briefly mentions in the

1933
01:57:18,079 --> 01:57:22,640
forward that Burnham's basic idea of managerialism gets very close

1934
01:57:22,680 --> 01:57:25,600
to his idea of technological sort of society and the

1935
01:57:26,880 --> 01:57:29,960
sort of I think you would sort of the autocratic

1936
01:57:30,079 --> 01:57:32,520
nature of technique as it were, And he says that

1937
01:57:32,520 --> 01:57:34,680
this is one of the closest approximations. But you can

1938
01:57:34,720 --> 01:57:39,479
see that in this sort of description here Francis is

1939
01:57:39,520 --> 01:57:42,319
then sort of pulling on the same kind of thread.

1940
01:57:42,399 --> 01:57:47,119
He's recognizing that once you have a sort of this

1941
01:57:47,119 --> 01:57:50,720
this replacement of the qualitative or the quantitative, you then

1942
01:57:50,800 --> 01:57:54,279
have formulas and techniques that are more uniform for performing

1943
01:57:54,319 --> 01:57:58,039
different taxts in society. That this continues on, continues on

1944
01:57:58,359 --> 01:58:00,640
to what a lul calls like the one best way,

1945
01:58:00,720 --> 01:58:03,720
which is this striving for the perfect technique to achieve

1946
01:58:03,720 --> 01:58:06,319
whatever goal, and the same sense that the Austrians would

1947
01:58:06,319 --> 01:58:10,279
think of economizing, but saying there's another side to that coin,

1948
01:58:10,319 --> 01:58:13,920
whereby constantly striving for the one best way means that

1949
01:58:13,960 --> 01:58:18,520
you create this strange class of alien people who have

1950
01:58:18,760 --> 01:58:22,600
pursued the one best way and saying this case business management,

1951
01:58:23,079 --> 01:58:24,960
and they have no relation to the people that they

1952
01:58:25,000 --> 01:58:27,840
actually have working under them or living in the society

1953
01:58:27,840 --> 01:58:31,479
around them, because they're sort of just these bizarre, technically

1954
01:58:31,680 --> 01:58:35,039
inclined freaks with no other skills really outside of that,

1955
01:58:35,119 --> 01:58:39,359
the laptop classes people might call them.

1956
01:58:39,479 --> 01:58:42,600
Speaker 1: The third objection came from libertarians of the Reagan era,

1957
01:58:43,399 --> 01:58:46,119
who argue that the managerial regime is being eclipsed by

1958
01:58:46,159 --> 01:58:51,760
the rise of newly minted entrepreneurs. Today, mind's may instinctively

1959
01:58:51,840 --> 01:58:54,079
turned to a man like Bill Gates, or perhaps the

1960
01:58:54,079 --> 01:58:59,560
Silicon Valley types such as Mark Zuckerberg, Jack Dorsey, Elon Musk,

1961
01:58:59,600 --> 01:59:02,560
and Peter Seal. But virtually none of these billionaires are

1962
01:59:02,680 --> 01:59:06,279
entrepreneurs in a manner that say Henry Ford was. They

1963
01:59:06,359 --> 01:59:08,439
each made their fortunes by playing the system of the

1964
01:59:08,439 --> 01:59:11,079
managerial regime and exploiting the fusion of the state and

1965
01:59:11,119 --> 01:59:14,479
the economy in one way or another. But even if

1966
01:59:14,479 --> 01:59:18,319
there should spring forth a genuinely innovative and entrepreneurial firm,

1967
01:59:18,439 --> 01:59:21,319
sooner or later it becomes co opted and is transformed

1968
01:59:21,359 --> 01:59:25,279
into being part of the regime apparatus. Francis cites the

1969
01:59:25,319 --> 01:59:28,960
example of McDonald's. A more recent example might be Google.

1970
01:59:29,760 --> 01:59:31,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, but it's a private company brew.

1971
01:59:32,159 --> 01:59:34,479
Speaker 1: Hey, they can do what they want and they do.

1972
01:59:35,359 --> 01:59:39,000
I mean, how much, really, how much is Musk? I

1973
01:59:39,000 --> 01:59:42,479
would really like to know his net worth? What percentage

1974
01:59:42,479 --> 01:59:46,119
of that is just from government contracts, because it's basically

1975
01:59:47,840 --> 01:59:50,560
how he built his wealth and Bezos two.

1976
01:59:51,439 --> 01:59:52,560
Speaker 2: I mean, was this.

1977
01:59:52,720 --> 01:59:57,720
Speaker 5: All leverage and sheer wealth? And none of it's really

1978
01:59:57,880 --> 02:00:00,600
none of it is real, none of it's tangible. It's

1979
02:00:00,720 --> 02:00:03,079
all written in debt for the most part.

1980
02:00:03,800 --> 02:00:04,720
Speaker 2: Yeah. Correct.

1981
02:00:05,960 --> 02:00:09,520
Speaker 1: Francis's major contribution to the general Corpus of elite theory

1982
02:00:09,680 --> 02:00:13,520
is in his emphasis on the role of ideology, where

1983
02:00:13,560 --> 02:00:16,960
Burnham emphasized the fusion of the state and corporations, as

1984
02:00:16,960 --> 02:00:20,520
he put it, managers in government and managers in industry.

1985
02:00:21,399 --> 02:00:24,600
Francis immediately recognized the importance of a third category of

1986
02:00:24,640 --> 02:00:28,640
managers involved in opinion formation, which he called mass public

1987
02:00:28,680 --> 02:00:36,039
relations or mass organizations of culture and communication. These include, quoting,

1988
02:00:36,880 --> 02:00:39,159
not only the media of mass communication, one of the

1989
02:00:39,159 --> 02:00:42,279
most important instruments by which to manager really elite disciplines

1990
02:00:42,319 --> 02:00:46,399
and controls the mass population, but also all other mass

1991
02:00:46,520 --> 02:00:51,880
organizations that disseminate, restrict or invent information, ideas and values

1992
02:00:52,720 --> 02:00:59,199
and values advertising, publishing, journalism, film and broadcasting and broadcasting, entertainment,

1993
02:00:59,359 --> 02:01:04,520
religion and education, and institutions for research and development. Indeed,

1994
02:01:04,560 --> 02:01:08,439
the mass organizations of culture and communication, which generally lack

1995
02:01:08,560 --> 02:01:12,119
the coercive disciplines of the mass corporation and the mass state,

1996
02:01:12,560 --> 02:01:16,359
are able to provide disciplines and control for the mass population,

1997
02:01:16,880 --> 02:01:19,960
primarily through their use of the devices and techniques of

1998
02:01:20,039 --> 02:01:25,000
mass communication. All the mass cultural organizations that function as

1999
02:01:25,000 --> 02:01:28,479
part of the media the media of mass communication, and

2000
02:01:28,520 --> 02:01:31,800
they constitute a necessary element in the power base of

2001
02:01:31,840 --> 02:01:35,279
the managerial elite.

2002
02:01:34,319 --> 02:01:37,319
Speaker 5: Lenin levels of propaganda awareness.

2003
02:01:38,079 --> 02:01:41,880
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, And I mean could you imagine what he

2004
02:01:41,920 --> 02:01:42,960
would be saying now?

2005
02:01:44,439 --> 02:01:47,119
Speaker 5: Well, I don't think he'd be seeing anything different, because

2006
02:01:47,159 --> 02:01:50,159
he's so he's so on the money nearly, you know,

2007
02:01:50,359 --> 02:01:53,279
thirty years ago from where we are now. It's just

2008
02:01:53,359 --> 02:01:57,520
that he must have had a much more discerning eye

2009
02:01:57,600 --> 02:02:01,079
than your average person nowadays. That it took the whole

2010
02:02:01,159 --> 02:02:04,520
nonsense of COVID for them to even think about how

2011
02:02:05,880 --> 02:02:10,479
there is you know, both explicit and implessit propaganda messaging.

2012
02:02:10,920 --> 02:02:14,079
Speaker 1: Right, I mean, I would love to see his articles

2013
02:02:14,199 --> 02:02:18,560
during COVID, especially during like twenty twenty, especially during the

2014
02:02:18,560 --> 02:02:22,880
summer of riots and murders. Sam would have had a

2015
02:02:22,960 --> 02:02:23,760
lot to say about that.

2016
02:02:24,399 --> 02:02:25,479
Speaker 5: Fully lost his head.

2017
02:02:27,640 --> 02:02:30,439
Speaker 1: Francis was keenly aware of the ideological component of the

2018
02:02:30,479 --> 02:02:33,399
managerial regime, and his insights owe much to his deep

2019
02:02:33,479 --> 02:02:38,479
understanding of the cultural turn in Marxist literature after Antonio Gramsci,

2020
02:02:38,640 --> 02:02:42,399
whom he cites, however, guess something.

2021
02:02:43,840 --> 02:02:46,319
Speaker 5: No, I'm just I'll let it carry on, ohkay.

2022
02:02:46,720 --> 02:02:50,960
Speaker 1: However, like both Burnham and Peretto, Francis saw ideology as

2023
02:02:51,000 --> 02:02:54,680
mere justification for power, usually coming after the fact as

2024
02:02:54,680 --> 02:02:58,760
a means of consolidation and control. This is to say

2025
02:02:58,800 --> 02:03:02,239
that he saw the use of theology as almost entirely cynical.

2026
02:03:02,960 --> 02:03:06,640
In his afterwards Viathan and Its Enemies. Paul Gottfried shares

2027
02:03:06,680 --> 02:03:10,800
this revealing passage about his own fundamental disagreement with Francis,

2028
02:03:11,319 --> 02:03:15,760
quoting Sam, and I would argue about his skepticism concerning

2029
02:03:15,800 --> 02:03:19,159
whether elites accept their hegemonic ideas. In other words, whether

2030
02:03:19,199 --> 02:03:23,079
elites really believe their own ideology. In his understanding of

2031
02:03:23,079 --> 02:03:27,279
circulating elites, values and ideal in his own I'm gonna

2032
02:03:27,319 --> 02:03:30,880
do that again. In his understanding of circulating elites, values

2033
02:03:30,880 --> 02:03:35,079
and ideals were mere instruments for achieving practical goals. They

2034
02:03:35,119 --> 02:03:38,720
advanced the interests of those seeking positions of authority. Sam

2035
02:03:38,720 --> 02:03:41,560
would quote with pleasure of the Italian economists and sociologist

2036
02:03:42,159 --> 02:03:45,520
Vilfredo Pareto that those involved in the power game would

2037
02:03:45,520 --> 02:03:48,479
exploit whatever ideas and visions were most attractive to the

2038
02:03:48,520 --> 02:03:52,560
masses in a particular culture. But according to Sam, these

2039
02:03:52,600 --> 02:03:55,840
elites would approach the myths as nothing more than latters

2040
02:03:55,840 --> 02:03:56,800
for their own assent.

2041
02:03:57,520 --> 02:03:59,760
Speaker 5: I'm going to have to ask it of curiosity, what

2042
02:04:00,079 --> 02:04:02,279
side do you see yourself pH on and that sort

2043
02:04:02,279 --> 02:04:06,000
of distinction, because I know I'm ever the cynic, but

2044
02:04:06,319 --> 02:04:08,039
it seems to pay well being.

2045
02:04:07,920 --> 02:04:08,079
Speaker 2: So.

2046
02:04:10,239 --> 02:04:14,279
Speaker 1: I'm probably on sam side. I think a lot of

2047
02:04:14,279 --> 02:04:18,760
these elites have. They're the only ideology they have is power,

2048
02:04:19,439 --> 02:04:23,439
and you know, more than money power, I think it's power.

2049
02:04:24,039 --> 02:04:27,039
Speaker 5: Ideology is just a it's just a technology to them,

2050
02:04:27,239 --> 02:04:28,079
it's a technique.

2051
02:04:28,960 --> 02:04:32,359
Speaker 1: And they'll change ideologies. They don't care there was Some

2052
02:04:32,399 --> 02:04:35,640
of them will. Some of them will if it means

2053
02:04:35,640 --> 02:04:38,720
that they stay, they don't get circulated out, they will

2054
02:04:38,760 --> 02:04:39,760
change their ideology.

2055
02:04:40,640 --> 02:04:42,239
Speaker 5: Well that's I think part of the reason why we

2056
02:04:42,319 --> 02:04:46,479
have so much issue, especially when people start to really

2057
02:04:46,520 --> 02:04:49,119
dip their toes into this kind of stuff and will

2058
02:04:49,399 --> 02:04:52,680
are the neoliberals? Are the liberals or the socialists? Or

2059
02:04:52,720 --> 02:04:55,680
they are the neo conservatives. We have all these sort

2060
02:04:55,720 --> 02:04:59,159
of bizarre terms that really when you try and identify

2061
02:04:59,239 --> 02:05:02,399
each one's you end up with crossover between them all

2062
02:05:02,439 --> 02:05:06,079
to the point whereby you're not really identifying the fact

2063
02:05:06,119 --> 02:05:08,239
that these people have a subset of ideas, but that

2064
02:05:08,279 --> 02:05:10,359
there is a subset of ideas that they're willing to

2065
02:05:10,359 --> 02:05:12,439
interchange at any moment in time.

2066
02:05:12,479 --> 02:05:17,119
Speaker 2: Really, yeah, agreed, one hundred percent. All right.

2067
02:05:18,000 --> 02:05:21,159
Speaker 1: This is in fact the old disagreement between Moscow and

2068
02:05:21,199 --> 02:05:26,399
Pereto about whether ideas affect history restated Godfreed occupies the

2069
02:05:26,439 --> 02:05:30,319
Mosca position, while Francis takes the Pareto position. However, all

2070
02:05:30,359 --> 02:05:34,640
four thinkers would ultimately agree that the ideological function cannot

2071
02:05:34,680 --> 02:05:38,319
be ignored in any analysis of power. The culture, even

2072
02:05:38,399 --> 02:05:41,199
down to the everyday beliefs of the masses, must at

2073
02:05:41,239 --> 02:05:44,800
some level reflect and buy into the political formula of

2074
02:05:44,840 --> 02:05:52,439
the ruling class. Vital Vital. Francis, however, recognized, perhaps more

2075
02:05:52,479 --> 02:05:55,439
than any other thinker, that under the managerial regime, the

2076
02:05:55,520 --> 02:06:01,960
ideological vision must be totalizing. That's that's a word totalizing,

2077
02:06:02,399 --> 02:06:03,279
which is because it's not.

2078
02:06:04,199 --> 02:06:05,319
Speaker 5: That's confusing you.

2079
02:06:05,199 --> 02:06:09,960
Speaker 1: Exactly, which is to say, no vestige of the previous

2080
02:06:10,000 --> 02:06:13,560
regime can be allowed. He illustrates the point in a

2081
02:06:13,640 --> 02:06:16,920
much livelier way than in Leviathan and Its Enemies in

2082
02:06:17,000 --> 02:06:20,279
two pieces that were republished in the collection Beautiful Losers,

2083
02:06:20,920 --> 02:06:24,520
The Culture Doctor King and Equality as a Political Weapon.

2084
02:06:25,720 --> 02:06:28,199
In the former, good Good Well.

2085
02:06:28,119 --> 02:06:29,760
Speaker 5: I was going to say, as I mentioned earlier on

2086
02:06:29,840 --> 02:06:31,800
this that these are two essays I'm quite familiar with,

2087
02:06:31,880 --> 02:06:34,560
as I've done a stream on them already. But the

2088
02:06:34,920 --> 02:06:38,880
Beautiful Losers, I think is probably if you're not one

2089
02:06:38,880 --> 02:06:42,079
for reading giant books of people you've never really heard

2090
02:06:42,119 --> 02:06:45,880
of before, which is an understandable position, you're if you

2091
02:06:45,920 --> 02:06:48,479
can find a copy. There are some still floating out

2092
02:06:48,520 --> 02:06:52,319
there of like new old stock copies of Beautiful Losers.

2093
02:06:52,560 --> 02:06:55,079
We managed to get one for a relatively fair price,

2094
02:06:55,920 --> 02:06:58,359
and it's a great Probably, it's a better way to

2095
02:06:58,359 --> 02:07:01,600
get familiar with Francis. Probably he's a bit more sort

2096
02:07:01,600 --> 02:07:05,199
of polemic and the motive is compared to the sort

2097
02:07:05,199 --> 02:07:07,960
of more burn Them esque. You know, he's so clinical

2098
02:07:08,159 --> 02:07:11,119
and leviias and its enemies that you might be confused

2099
02:07:11,159 --> 02:07:14,359
for supporting the Manjieru regime. As Burnham did as well.

2100
02:07:16,439 --> 02:07:19,239
Speaker 1: In the former The Culture of Doctor King. He spots

2101
02:07:19,600 --> 02:07:22,840
in what has now become almost a commonplace insight that

2102
02:07:22,920 --> 02:07:25,800
the ideology of the managerial regime takes on an almost

2103
02:07:25,840 --> 02:07:29,439
religious air, with its own sacred heroes and symbols, as

2104
02:07:29,479 --> 02:07:32,920
embodied in the figure of Martin Luther King. While the

2105
02:07:33,000 --> 02:07:37,920
symbolic significance of Christmas is fair game to debate, debate

2106
02:07:37,920 --> 02:07:41,000
politically every year. No such freedom is afforded to the

2107
02:07:41,039 --> 02:07:44,600
annual celebration of Martin Luther king Day, which must be

2108
02:07:44,640 --> 02:07:47,399
observed with solemn reverence and can only ever be about

2109
02:07:47,439 --> 02:07:50,640
one thing, the righteous struggle of the civil rights movement.

2110
02:07:52,199 --> 02:07:55,079
Speaker 5: No, I think, if I remember correctly towards this is

2111
02:07:55,119 --> 02:07:57,000
the start when he's talking about you know, or just

2112
02:07:57,079 --> 02:08:00,680
like Christmas as well, doctor k R. Martin Luther king

2113
02:08:00,760 --> 02:08:03,000
Dy or whatever you're first to as it comes a

2114
02:08:03,079 --> 02:08:06,000
sort of or comes with all the unloading of us

2115
02:08:06,119 --> 02:08:10,319
us sorry, the unloading of a sorted junk, which instantly

2116
02:08:10,359 --> 02:08:12,920
makes me think of you know, the way that like

2117
02:08:13,039 --> 02:08:16,720
b l M and LGBT and all these different movements

2118
02:08:16,720 --> 02:08:21,199
becomes so quickly commodified, and a way that these legacy

2119
02:08:21,319 --> 02:08:26,600
brands with these sort of reputations that wouldn't be respected normally.

2120
02:08:26,640 --> 02:08:29,399
Can you know, like Nike can jump on making shoes

2121
02:08:29,479 --> 02:08:32,079
for however that guy was that took the knee and

2122
02:08:32,119 --> 02:08:34,520
whatever else. Yeah, you know, and all of a sudden

2123
02:08:34,560 --> 02:08:36,800
they've got all the clout. It's this. It's the same crap,

2124
02:08:36,840 --> 02:08:38,359
and they've been doing it since the eighties.

2125
02:08:40,960 --> 02:08:44,720
Speaker 1: In a blistering conclusion, he writes Martin Luther King's legacy,

2126
02:08:44,960 --> 02:08:47,600
as its keepers now is profoundly at odds with the

2127
02:08:47,720 --> 02:08:51,039
historic American order, and that is why they have They

2128
02:08:51,039 --> 02:08:53,399
can have no rest until the symbols of that order

2129
02:08:53,439 --> 02:08:56,439
are pulled up root and branch to say that doctor

2130
02:08:56,520 --> 02:08:58,760
King and the cause he really represented are now part

2131
02:08:58,800 --> 02:09:02,319
of the official American red. Indeed the defining and dominant

2132
02:09:02,319 --> 02:09:04,960
symbol of that creed, which is what both houses of

2133
02:09:05,000 --> 02:09:07,359
the United States Congress said in nineteen eighty three and

2134
02:09:07,359 --> 02:09:11,399
what President Ronald Reagan signed into law shortly afterward, is

2135
02:09:11,439 --> 02:09:14,239
the inauguration of a new order of the ages, in

2136
02:09:14,279 --> 02:09:16,720
which the symbols of the old order and the things

2137
02:09:16,760 --> 02:09:21,680
they symbolize can retain neither meaning nor respect, in which

2138
02:09:21,680 --> 02:09:23,600
they are as mute and dark as the gods of

2139
02:09:23,600 --> 02:09:28,000
Babylon entire, and from whose cold ashes will rise a

2140
02:09:28,079 --> 02:09:33,039
new God, leveling their rough places, straightening their crookedness, and

2141
02:09:33,079 --> 02:09:36,199
exalting every valley until the whole earth is flattened beneath

2142
02:09:36,239 --> 02:09:39,000
his beneath his feet, and perceives the glory of the

2143
02:09:39,039 --> 02:09:41,760
new Lord. That is such amazing writing.

2144
02:09:41,640 --> 02:09:45,199
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean there's some interest and stuff as well.

2145
02:09:45,319 --> 02:09:50,600
Then we can look at again the way that progressives

2146
02:09:51,039 --> 02:09:53,680
or people we would think of as progressives can can

2147
02:09:53,760 --> 02:09:56,800
jump on any subset of ideas and threw away any

2148
02:09:56,840 --> 02:10:00,800
other subset of ideas instantly. You know, Martin Luther King

2149
02:10:00,840 --> 02:10:04,920
now would be would be canceled because he was a heterosexual,

2150
02:10:05,079 --> 02:10:08,600
black man, and he was a misogynist and what you know,

2151
02:10:09,000 --> 02:10:12,479
we've probably toxic and all these other phrases that would

2152
02:10:12,479 --> 02:10:14,479
be giving him a bigger yikes as it were, because

2153
02:10:14,479 --> 02:10:17,720
he was a Christian. However, in nineteen eighties, he was

2154
02:10:17,760 --> 02:10:20,319
the pinnacle, you know, he was the symbol of progressivism.

2155
02:10:20,680 --> 02:10:23,039
And now they would you know, it's only been fifty

2156
02:10:23,119 --> 02:10:25,159
years and they basically turn around and spit on him.

2157
02:10:25,439 --> 02:10:30,199
It shows you how, as you said, how purely focused

2158
02:10:30,199 --> 02:10:32,840
on power these people are. That you know that there

2159
02:10:32,840 --> 02:10:35,720
are people alive nowadays who probably played a part in

2160
02:10:35,760 --> 02:10:38,359
getting this whole campaign going in the eighties and would

2161
02:10:38,359 --> 02:10:40,359
turn around and either lie to you straight in the

2162
02:10:40,399 --> 02:10:44,479
face then or now, or probably both situations about what

2163
02:10:44,520 --> 02:10:46,479
their causes are and what their goals are, because at

2164
02:10:46,479 --> 02:10:48,039
the end of the day, it's just all about power.

2165
02:10:48,800 --> 02:10:51,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, look at Joe Biden. Joe Biden is

2166
02:10:51,520 --> 02:10:54,399
the author of you know the crime bill, that famous

2167
02:10:54,399 --> 02:10:58,119
crime bill. I mean the things he's said in the past, no.

2168
02:10:58,520 --> 02:11:00,800
Speaker 5: Big shot lawyers of us Chauta in variety.

2169
02:11:01,239 --> 02:11:02,680
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.

2170
02:11:02,920 --> 02:11:05,600
Speaker 1: Also you know about the black community stuff that he said,

2171
02:11:05,640 --> 02:11:08,720
and now he says, if you don't vote for me,

2172
02:11:08,720 --> 02:11:09,359
you ain't black.

2173
02:11:10,399 --> 02:11:10,880
Speaker 2: It's just.

2174
02:11:12,439 --> 02:11:16,079
Speaker 1: I love politics. It's so oh god, it's so great.

2175
02:11:16,479 --> 02:11:17,319
Speaker 2: All right. Moving on.

2176
02:11:18,000 --> 02:11:20,479
Speaker 1: What may have seemed like hyperbole in nineteen eighty eight

2177
02:11:20,600 --> 02:11:24,359
is is an observed daily reality in the twenty twenties,

2178
02:11:24,600 --> 02:11:27,720
when statues of everyone from Confederates to Founding fathers are

2179
02:11:27,720 --> 02:11:31,479
physically torn down by state backed feral mobs with a

2180
02:11:31,479 --> 02:11:35,359
full approval of every major corporation, university, and media outlet.

2181
02:11:35,960 --> 02:11:39,479
In twenty twenty, after the Black Lives Matter protest riots

2182
02:11:39,600 --> 02:11:43,439
murders following the death of George Floyd, massive statues of

2183
02:11:43,439 --> 02:11:47,000
Floyd were erected in many public places across the USA,

2184
02:11:47,159 --> 02:11:51,920
while Edinburgh University renamed David Hume Tower to forty George Square,

2185
02:11:51,960 --> 02:11:57,359
citing eighteenth century Enlightenment philosopher's racist views.

2186
02:11:59,000 --> 02:12:00,560
Speaker 2: Well, how do you feel about that? Is this guy?

2187
02:12:01,960 --> 02:12:04,319
Speaker 5: We'll see, I'm I'm not the biggest fan of David Hume.

2188
02:12:04,479 --> 02:12:06,159
Speaker 2: Either right, but still.

2189
02:12:08,479 --> 02:12:11,399
Speaker 5: No, that's true. I suppose been the lesser of two evils.

2190
02:12:11,600 --> 02:12:15,199
I think it's it's very much. I mean the examples

2191
02:12:15,479 --> 02:12:18,479
as using here are the same sort of thing that

2192
02:12:18,560 --> 02:12:21,520
Francis and even Rothbard then want to talk about. You know,

2193
02:12:21,560 --> 02:12:24,119
when things like the l E riots happened, they just

2194
02:12:24,159 --> 02:12:26,199
had sort of big enough gonads at the time to

2195
02:12:26,239 --> 02:12:27,960
point at that and talk about it, and the way

2196
02:12:28,000 --> 02:12:30,479
we do with BLM nowadays.

2197
02:12:31,079 --> 02:12:33,600
Speaker 1: Even back then was that thirty years ago thirty two

2198
02:12:33,640 --> 02:12:38,279
years different time for Francis, such displays do not signal

2199
02:12:38,359 --> 02:12:40,640
anything more than the victory lap of the new of

2200
02:12:40,680 --> 02:12:43,359
the new order over the old order, which must be

2201
02:12:43,399 --> 02:12:44,880
emptied of all significance.

2202
02:12:45,520 --> 02:12:49,520
Speaker 5: I'm claiming that victory lap line because I can remember

2203
02:12:50,199 --> 02:12:56,720
me and Scrump we're going over the that that MLK

2204
02:12:57,800 --> 02:13:00,159
s A in the video when A was a the

2205
02:13:00,239 --> 02:13:02,680
chat replying to something, we specifically use the laying the

2206
02:13:02,760 --> 02:13:05,000
victory lap of the new order or something like that.

2207
02:13:05,000 --> 02:13:07,399
I would see the fact that since World War Two,

2208
02:13:07,520 --> 02:13:10,119
progressivism has just been has just been doing sort of

2209
02:13:10,159 --> 02:13:13,840
ritual humiliation, sort of ceremonies and engaging in sort of

2210
02:13:13,880 --> 02:13:16,720
celebrations because the world died anyway.

2211
02:13:17,399 --> 02:13:22,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, Inequality as a political weapon. We see Francis's essential

2212
02:13:22,640 --> 02:13:26,159
cynicism as regards actual belief in the doctrine of equality.

2213
02:13:26,800 --> 02:13:30,920
He seeses on a passage in Peretto, the sentiment that

2214
02:13:31,000 --> 02:13:35,920
is very inappropriately named equality is fresh strong alert precisely

2215
02:13:36,439 --> 02:13:40,520
is fresh strong alert, precisely because it is not in

2216
02:13:40,560 --> 02:13:43,720
fact a sentiment of equality and is not related to

2217
02:13:43,800 --> 02:13:48,000
any abstraction, as a few naive intellectuals still believe, but

2218
02:13:48,079 --> 02:13:51,359
because it is related to the direct interests of individuals

2219
02:13:51,359 --> 02:13:55,079
who are bent on escaping certain inequalities not in their

2220
02:13:55,159 --> 02:13:57,840
favor and setting up new inequalities that will be in

2221
02:13:57,920 --> 02:14:00,880
their favor, this latter being the chief concern.

2222
02:14:02,479 --> 02:14:05,800
Speaker 5: I think that's such an amazing passage from Perai Olier.

2223
02:14:05,920 --> 02:14:09,199
It's hilarious to think that in your economics degree you'll

2224
02:14:09,199 --> 02:14:11,920
normally learn about parareo, but you'll never learn about that

2225
02:14:11,960 --> 02:14:14,600
stuff that he wrote, where he's political economy, right, and

2226
02:14:15,319 --> 02:14:19,199
not just we just get the boring stuff and production possibilities,

2227
02:14:19,199 --> 02:14:22,039
frontiers and paratal maximality and stuff like that.

2228
02:14:24,560 --> 02:14:27,239
Speaker 1: Moving on, one may think of any number of affirmative

2229
02:14:27,239 --> 02:14:30,039
action programs as an example of this, but It also

2230
02:14:30,119 --> 02:14:33,119
brings to mind the central logic of the juvenile, the

2231
02:14:33,199 --> 02:14:37,199
juvenilian alliance between the high and low. The high can

2232
02:14:37,319 --> 02:14:41,439
always promise to liberate the low from oppressors by promising

2233
02:14:41,479 --> 02:14:44,880
to transfer advantages to them. Francis sees that this is

2234
02:14:44,920 --> 02:14:48,600
little more than a cynical power ploy, quoting in the

2235
02:14:48,640 --> 02:14:53,479
twentieth century Egalitarium. Egalitarianism has been used principally as the

2236
02:14:53,560 --> 02:14:58,920
political formula or ideological rationalization by which one emerging elite

2237
02:14:58,920 --> 02:15:02,359
has sought to displace from political, economic, and cultural power

2238
02:15:02,640 --> 02:15:07,439
another elite, and in not only rationalizing but also disguising

2239
02:15:07,479 --> 02:15:10,600
the dominance of the new elite that is brutal.

2240
02:15:12,479 --> 02:15:16,159
Speaker 5: It's the thing that separates both Francis and burn Them

2241
02:15:16,199 --> 02:15:19,920
from so many other American thinkers is that they drew

2242
02:15:20,079 --> 02:15:23,920
so heavily on the elite school or the elite theorists

2243
02:15:23,920 --> 02:15:27,119
as they're called nowadays, and that, you know, you can

2244
02:15:27,159 --> 02:15:32,000
read as much stuff on theocracy or the old world

2245
02:15:32,039 --> 02:15:36,000
as you want, but there is something about the contents

2246
02:15:36,000 --> 02:15:39,399
of elite theory. The basic sort of statements it makes

2247
02:15:39,439 --> 02:15:43,720
about human nature are eternal, it seems, and that once

2248
02:15:43,760 --> 02:15:47,159
you've really tapped into those, you can sort of skip

2249
02:15:47,560 --> 02:15:50,560
a lot of things politically that other people would maybe

2250
02:15:50,680 --> 02:15:53,359
focus time and energy on reading or engaging with. Because

2251
02:15:53,359 --> 02:15:56,159
you've actually you've got the cheat codes, you understand how

2252
02:15:56,159 --> 02:15:57,199
the game works.

2253
02:15:57,520 --> 02:15:59,880
Speaker 2: You're not just there.

2254
02:16:00,039 --> 02:16:02,439
Speaker 1: I'm writing books on things that don't matter.

2255
02:16:04,359 --> 02:16:05,359
Speaker 5: What else are books for.

2256
02:16:08,880 --> 02:16:09,319
Speaker 2: Excellent?

2257
02:16:09,600 --> 02:16:13,039
Speaker 1: Francis points to the behaviorism of BF. Skinner and others,

2258
02:16:13,039 --> 02:16:17,000
the belief in human beings as equal blank slates, differentiated

2259
02:16:17,079 --> 02:16:19,840
only by their upbringing, as one of the chief strains

2260
02:16:19,840 --> 02:16:25,680
of egalitarianism in the twentieth century, quoting egalitarian egalitarianism played

2261
02:16:25,680 --> 02:16:29,720
a central role in the progressivist ideological challenge, and the

2262
02:16:29,760 --> 02:16:32,920
main form it assumed in the early twentieth century was

2263
02:16:32,920 --> 02:16:36,520
that of environmentalism, not in the contemporary sense of concern

2264
02:16:36,600 --> 02:16:39,040
for ecology, but in the sense that human beings are

2265
02:16:39,079 --> 02:16:42,680
perceived as the products of their social and historical environment,

2266
02:16:42,840 --> 02:16:46,600
rather than of their innate, mental and physical natures. Indeed,

2267
02:16:46,639 --> 02:16:52,040
the ideological function of progressivism in delegitimizing bourgeois society was

2268
02:16:52,079 --> 02:16:56,000
accomplished by its identification of the society itself as the

2269
02:16:56,159 --> 02:16:59,600
environment to be altered through social management.

2270
02:17:00,079 --> 02:17:03,040
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, this is the great sort of build up

2271
02:17:03,040 --> 02:17:05,200
and thing you need to hold in your head as

2272
02:17:05,280 --> 02:17:09,159
you come to some of the other parts from Francis

2273
02:17:09,200 --> 02:17:13,719
and Gottfried as well on the therapeutic state, because you

2274
02:17:13,799 --> 02:17:17,799
first need this sort of environmental view, which then allows

2275
02:17:17,840 --> 02:17:21,319
you to sort of solutishly transition into a medical or

2276
02:17:21,360 --> 02:17:26,399
socio psychological view where there is more and more quantitative

2277
02:17:26,479 --> 02:17:29,280
data that replaces the qualitative data that people used to

2278
02:17:29,399 --> 02:17:33,079
use for decision making processes the lowest level right up

2279
02:17:33,120 --> 02:17:35,639
to the top, and is one of the themes that

2280
02:17:35,680 --> 02:17:38,159
sort of is drawn out more throughout this chapter is

2281
02:17:38,159 --> 02:17:41,440
that sort of the illusion of democracy basically allows the

2282
02:17:41,479 --> 02:17:44,159
elites to build a wall of expertise around themselves, the

2283
02:17:44,280 --> 02:17:47,639
techniques and sort of specializations that people the average person

2284
02:17:47,680 --> 02:17:51,879
couldn't grasp, and as it was saying before it, it

2285
02:17:52,040 --> 02:17:55,879
creates this alien class of people who just cannot integrate

2286
02:17:56,319 --> 02:17:59,760
into the society that they are actually orchestra it's no

2287
02:17:59,799 --> 02:18:02,520
one under the products we get. The mass media we

2288
02:18:02,520 --> 02:18:06,159
consume seems so misplaced because it's made by people who

2289
02:18:06,200 --> 02:18:08,760
have never lived in the real world as ourselves. I mean,

2290
02:18:08,799 --> 02:18:12,159
I think this is something even Eric Ritter von que

2291
02:18:12,159 --> 02:18:14,920
out Laden goes on at great length when he talks

2292
02:18:14,959 --> 02:18:19,120
about again the same notion of quantitative sort of data

2293
02:18:19,159 --> 02:18:24,000
and dealing specifically with the utilitarianism, and you would just

2294
02:18:24,159 --> 02:18:27,680
have these sort of dictatorial men of science. You're roaming

2295
02:18:27,719 --> 02:18:31,680
around rearranging and socially managed managing the world. Is he

2296
02:18:31,799 --> 02:18:33,719
so fit because it was for the good of science.

2297
02:18:34,680 --> 02:18:39,840
Speaker 1: The logic of environmentalism or behavioral behavioralism thus always points

2298
02:18:39,840 --> 02:18:43,399
in the direction of ever increasing managerial control, since it

2299
02:18:43,479 --> 02:18:46,559
is society that must be changed, and such change can

2300
02:18:46,600 --> 02:18:50,319
take it can only take place through management. I really

2301
02:18:50,319 --> 02:18:54,360
hope people are understanding what this is because this, to me,

2302
02:18:54,479 --> 02:18:56,440
this is one of the this may be the most

2303
02:18:56,440 --> 02:19:00,639
important part of the book, because I mean, this is

2304
02:19:00,639 --> 02:19:03,479
what really speaks to me, because this is what you

2305
02:19:03,520 --> 02:19:06,760
were seeing now. I mean, this is so clear now

2306
02:19:06,799 --> 02:19:09,440
that you can just if you cannot understand this and

2307
02:19:09,479 --> 02:19:12,559
not see it in today's society, you're just completely blind.

2308
02:19:12,600 --> 02:19:14,040
Speaker 2: And I don't know where. I don't know where.

2309
02:19:14,600 --> 02:19:16,360
Speaker 5: The only thing I think that's a little bit of

2310
02:19:16,360 --> 02:19:19,079
the chapter's messing is just a little twist of alul

2311
02:19:19,280 --> 02:19:20,040
on the end.

2312
02:19:21,959 --> 02:19:22,799
Speaker 1: Or uncle ted.

2313
02:19:24,399 --> 02:19:25,360
Speaker 5: Why not both.

2314
02:19:28,200 --> 02:19:31,239
Speaker 1: Francis locates. Edward Burnetz is one of the chief culprits

2315
02:19:31,239 --> 02:19:33,959
for inculcating this view among the elites in the nineteen

2316
02:19:34,000 --> 02:19:37,639
twenties and nineteen thirties. Quoting Edward Burnez, a nephew of

2317
02:19:37,680 --> 02:19:43,559
Sigmund Freud, also helped develop behaviorist psychology, psychological techniques for

2318
02:19:43,600 --> 02:19:46,879
the managed economy, and the science of public relations, which

2319
02:19:46,879 --> 02:19:51,280
he helped found treating all people as mechanically identical, writes

2320
02:19:51,399 --> 02:19:55,680
historian Stuart Ewan, Bernese called for the called for the

2321
02:19:55,719 --> 02:19:59,959
implementation of a mass psychology by which public opinion might

2322
02:20:00,159 --> 02:20:00,959
be controlled.

2323
02:20:02,399 --> 02:20:05,200
Speaker 5: That's the most important element to any form of mass

2324
02:20:05,239 --> 02:20:09,040
propaganda is first getting the mass to recognize itself as such.

2325
02:20:10,239 --> 02:20:19,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's good. Good quote from me, I said, good quote.

2326
02:20:20,840 --> 02:20:23,920
Speaker 1: What is striking if one turns to Berne's as naked

2327
02:20:23,959 --> 02:20:28,360
and unapologetic elitism in public relations. He speaks openly about

2328
02:20:28,399 --> 02:20:32,360
the engineering of consent and Warren's leaders against following public

2329
02:20:32,399 --> 02:20:37,760
attitude polls. It's explicitly because they might hinder the progressive agenda,

2330
02:20:38,239 --> 02:20:42,920
quoting society suffers when polls to inhibit leaders from independent thinking,

2331
02:20:43,159 --> 02:20:46,799
from anticipating change, or from preparing the public for change.

2332
02:20:47,639 --> 02:20:51,520
Polls exert pressure that may places that may play society

2333
02:20:51,639 --> 02:20:55,879
under what Jefferson called the tyranny of the majority and

2334
02:20:55,959 --> 02:20:58,239
throttle progressive minority ideas.

2335
02:21:01,280 --> 02:21:01,879
Speaker 5: They say this.

2336
02:21:04,319 --> 02:21:06,040
Speaker 2: What is by that?

2337
02:21:07,639 --> 02:21:10,760
Speaker 1: Brene's does not see public opinion as something to be followed,

2338
02:21:10,760 --> 02:21:15,040
but something to be managed and, if necessary, transformed, preferably

2339
02:21:15,079 --> 02:21:20,440
by using his services and expertise. Burne's fellow elitist, Walter Lippman,

2340
02:21:20,840 --> 02:21:22,760
was at Harvard class of nineteen thirteen.

2341
02:21:22,799 --> 02:21:23,399
Speaker 3: I think.

2342
02:21:25,159 --> 02:21:27,559
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure that's it. He was there with John

2343
02:21:28,280 --> 02:21:31,680
what's his name, the communist that went to Russia. They

2344
02:21:31,680 --> 02:21:36,520
did the moments about Yeah, I think John Reevey. Yeah, yeah,

2345
02:21:36,520 --> 02:21:41,959
they were. They graduated together. Funny that shocking. Brene's fellow.

2346
02:21:42,079 --> 02:21:45,360
Brene's fellow elitist, Walter Lippman, was skeptical about the extent

2347
02:21:45,399 --> 02:21:48,399
to which public opinion even exists, other than as a

2348
02:21:48,399 --> 02:21:51,920
fabrication of the media as a pseudo environment, and wrote

2349
02:21:51,920 --> 02:21:55,120
a book on the topic called The Phantom Public. It'd

2350
02:21:55,120 --> 02:21:56,280
be look at the name of that.

2351
02:21:57,120 --> 02:22:00,680
Speaker 5: It's just one of the whole thing with nases of

2352
02:22:00,719 --> 02:22:02,799
interesting as well. Is someone I think I should probably

2353
02:22:02,840 --> 02:22:05,159
know more about than I do, but I sort of

2354
02:22:05,239 --> 02:22:08,280
a brief understanding of what he's about, and some of

2355
02:22:08,280 --> 02:22:10,440
the stuff he was up to. But you basically worked

2356
02:22:10,479 --> 02:22:15,200
for Withdrow Wilson directly to engage with propaganda campaigns in

2357
02:22:15,440 --> 02:22:18,680
South America so that they would adopt and allow the

2358
02:22:18,719 --> 02:22:21,200
building of American factories and go work in them so

2359
02:22:21,239 --> 02:22:23,639
that the American war effort could be fueled by cheap

2360
02:22:23,879 --> 02:22:27,280
South American labor. And then after the war is basically

2361
02:22:27,319 --> 02:22:30,639
tasked with, well, take that stuff and then just push

2362
02:22:30,680 --> 02:22:33,559
it on the American people war propaganda at peacetime.

2363
02:22:34,559 --> 02:22:34,799
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2364
02:22:35,120 --> 02:22:39,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, his book, His book Propaganda is very short. It's

2365
02:22:39,879 --> 02:22:41,680
an easy read. It I read it in less than

2366
02:22:41,719 --> 02:22:45,559
two days, so right, it over two days. It begins

2367
02:22:45,559 --> 02:22:48,360
with the Portrait of the Disenchanted Man, which is a

2368
02:22:48,399 --> 02:22:52,680
neat summation of the passive masses quitting. The private citizen

2369
02:22:52,680 --> 02:22:55,200
today has come to feel rather like a deaf spectator

2370
02:22:55,239 --> 02:22:57,440
in the back row who ought to keep his mind

2371
02:22:57,440 --> 02:23:00,959
on the mystery on the mystery off there, but cannot

2372
02:23:01,040 --> 02:23:04,040
quite manage to keep awake. He knows he is somehow

2373
02:23:04,040 --> 02:23:07,840
affected by what is going on. Rules and regulations continually,

2374
02:23:08,159 --> 02:23:11,760
taxes annually, and wars occasionally remind him that he is

2375
02:23:11,799 --> 02:23:16,040
being swept along by great drifts of circumstance. Yet these

2376
02:23:16,040 --> 02:23:21,079
public affairs are in no way convincing, convincing ways, in

2377
02:23:21,120 --> 02:23:24,600
no way convincing way his affairs. They are, for the

2378
02:23:24,639 --> 02:23:27,760
most part invisible. They are managed, if they are managed

2379
02:23:27,840 --> 02:23:31,280
at all, at distant centers, from behind the scenes, by

2380
02:23:31,319 --> 02:23:34,440
unnamed powers. As a private person, he does not know

2381
02:23:34,559 --> 02:23:37,479
for certain what is going on, or who is doing it,

2382
02:23:37,760 --> 02:23:40,280
or where he is being carried. In the cold light

2383
02:23:40,319 --> 02:23:42,920
of experience, he knows that his sovereignty is a fiction.

2384
02:23:43,600 --> 02:23:47,360
He reigns in theory, but in fact is not governed.

2385
02:23:48,399 --> 02:23:52,360
Speaker 5: Me Another passage drepin in Kaczynski.

2386
02:23:55,799 --> 02:23:58,479
Speaker 1: Oh, where do you find your surrogate activities?

2387
02:23:58,520 --> 02:23:58,840
Speaker 2: People?

2388
02:24:00,280 --> 02:24:02,760
Speaker 5: This is one of the things I actually had. I

2389
02:24:02,760 --> 02:24:04,719
think we're getting towards the end here anyway, if I

2390
02:24:04,799 --> 02:24:06,360
remember correctly, But it's one of the things I had

2391
02:24:06,639 --> 02:24:09,520
sort of note is, and I think it's something Francis

2392
02:24:09,600 --> 02:24:12,280
kind of draws on towards the end of Levitan and

2393
02:24:12,280 --> 02:24:14,680
his enemies. He's sort of basically pausing the question of

2394
02:24:15,159 --> 02:24:18,000
you know, are the surryge activity he's no longer good enough?

2395
02:24:19,239 --> 02:24:23,840
Is the post bourgeois proletariat not willing to accept, you know,

2396
02:24:24,040 --> 02:24:27,159
faulty orders from sham captains, as Carlyle would say.

2397
02:24:29,159 --> 02:24:33,040
Speaker 1: But Lipmann does not, as one might imagine, lament this fact,

2398
02:24:33,239 --> 02:24:35,479
but rather uses it as a call for a reign

2399
02:24:35,520 --> 02:24:39,319
of experts. One might say, in a manager a managerial elite.

2400
02:24:39,719 --> 02:24:43,399
He says, I think, I think it is a false ideal.

2401
02:24:43,840 --> 02:24:47,040
I do not mean as an undesirable ideal. I mean

2402
02:24:47,079 --> 02:24:50,920
an unattainable idea, ideal bad only in the sense that

2403
02:24:51,000 --> 02:24:52,719
it is bad for a fat man to try to

2404
02:24:52,760 --> 02:24:56,079
be a ballet dancer. An ideal should express the true

2405
02:24:56,079 --> 02:24:59,959
possibilities of its subject. When it does not, it perverts

2406
02:25:00,079 --> 02:25:03,600
the true possibilities. The idea of the of the omni

2407
02:25:03,600 --> 02:25:08,719
competent sovereign citizen is, in my opinion, such a false ideal.

2408
02:25:09,120 --> 02:25:12,280
It is unattainable, the pursuit of it is misleading. The

2409
02:25:12,319 --> 02:25:15,440
failure to achieve it has produced the current disenchantment.

2410
02:25:16,440 --> 02:25:18,959
Speaker 5: I mean, it's it's sort of very hard to disagree

2411
02:25:19,000 --> 02:25:22,840
with him there, especially when he's tapping into the this

2412
02:25:22,920 --> 02:25:26,079
idea that the passive actor and the mass, or as

2413
02:25:26,120 --> 02:25:29,040
a little would say, that the individual alone in the mass.

2414
02:25:29,760 --> 02:25:32,879
You know, it's such a bizarre and novel possession to

2415
02:25:32,920 --> 02:25:35,959
where man used to be before that there really is.

2416
02:25:36,079 --> 02:25:37,879
You know, it must have been at the time felt

2417
02:25:37,920 --> 02:25:43,639
like unlimited opportunities to mold and shape and organize men.

2418
02:25:43,879 --> 02:25:46,520
As use of it as someone who was part of

2419
02:25:46,559 --> 02:25:47,760
this class of experts.

2420
02:25:48,840 --> 02:25:51,840
Speaker 1: Lipman solution is simply to do away with democratic fictions

2421
02:25:51,840 --> 02:25:53,680
and let the elites go on with its task of

2422
02:25:53,719 --> 02:25:58,959
managing their affairs. Yeah, as long as they're good man,

2423
02:25:59,280 --> 02:26:02,360
as long as they're good leads, and I realize, as

2424
02:26:02,399 --> 02:26:05,639
long as they're my friends. The thesis of the public,

2425
02:26:05,680 --> 02:26:08,319
of the phantom public does not assume that men in

2426
02:26:08,360 --> 02:26:12,000
action have universal purposes. They are denied the fraudulent support

2427
02:26:12,040 --> 02:26:15,159
of the fiction that they are agents of a common purpose.

2428
02:26:15,600 --> 02:26:19,479
They are regarded as the agents of special purposes, without

2429
02:26:19,520 --> 02:26:22,920
pretense and without embarrassment. They must live in a world

2430
02:26:22,959 --> 02:26:26,159
with men who have other special purposes. I have no

2431
02:26:26,280 --> 02:26:29,559
legislative program to offer, no new institutions to propose.

2432
02:26:29,799 --> 02:26:30,479
Speaker 2: There are, I.

2433
02:26:30,440 --> 02:26:34,360
Speaker 1: Believe, immense confusions in the current theory of democracy which

2434
02:26:34,440 --> 02:26:36,319
frustrate and pervert its action.

2435
02:26:38,520 --> 02:26:41,840
Speaker 5: I mean, there is a surprising amount of write and

2436
02:26:41,879 --> 02:26:44,879
from the kind of laft wing possession. When you really

2437
02:26:45,200 --> 02:26:50,440
start reading, you know, people's like doctoral thesis for politics, philosophy, economics,

2438
02:26:50,440 --> 02:26:52,360
degrees or whatever, and they will talk very much in

2439
02:26:52,399 --> 02:26:56,440
a similar tone about, well, the people think democracy should

2440
02:26:56,479 --> 02:26:59,040
work properly, and we know it can't work like that

2441
02:26:59,079 --> 02:27:02,959
because society it would basically fall to the ground. So

2442
02:27:04,079 --> 02:27:05,959
how do we just keep the illusion going.

2443
02:27:10,319 --> 02:27:10,719
Speaker 2: Onwards?

2444
02:27:11,159 --> 02:27:13,520
Speaker 1: The role of the public is simply the rubber stamp

2445
02:27:13,559 --> 02:27:16,239
which party of the elites gets to govern, even if

2446
02:27:16,280 --> 02:27:20,040
there is little difference between the choices on offer quoting.

2447
02:27:20,760 --> 02:27:23,280
Although it is the custom of partisans to speak as

2448
02:27:23,319 --> 02:27:26,319
if there were radical differences between the ins and outs,

2449
02:27:26,760 --> 02:27:29,719
it could be demonstrated. I believe that in stable and

2450
02:27:29,760 --> 02:27:34,719
mature societies the differences are not profound. If they were profound,

2451
02:27:34,959 --> 02:27:38,159
the defeated minority would be constantly on the verge of rebellion.

2452
02:27:38,719 --> 02:27:42,120
An election would be catastrophic. Whereas the assumption in every

2453
02:27:42,120 --> 02:27:44,799
election is that the victors will do nothing to make

2454
02:27:44,840 --> 02:27:48,959
life intolerable to the vanquished, and the vanquished will endure

2455
02:27:49,000 --> 02:27:54,239
with good humor policies which they do not approve. That's

2456
02:27:54,319 --> 02:28:01,680
pretty much gone out the window now I'm going to

2457
02:28:01,760 --> 02:28:05,920
keep going. In the twenty twenties, it is perfectly clear

2458
02:28:05,959 --> 02:28:08,840
that according to Liptman's criteria, the USA is no longer

2459
02:28:08,879 --> 02:28:12,520
a stable and mature society. Lipmann viewed the masses as

2460
02:28:12,559 --> 02:28:15,879
a bewildered herd whose opinions needed to be managed only

2461
02:28:15,920 --> 02:28:19,840
by a specialized class whose personal interests reached beyond the locality,

2462
02:28:20,319 --> 02:28:23,920
in other words, by men like Edward Bernez. However, it

2463
02:28:23,959 --> 02:28:26,760
strikes me that this narrow vision of democracy as a

2464
02:28:26,799 --> 02:28:30,319
mere rubber stamp of rule, a rule by experts who

2465
02:28:30,760 --> 02:28:34,360
engage in perception management, is running towards its death rows.

2466
02:28:35,159 --> 02:28:38,399
This is primarily because the Internet a modern Gutenberg press,

2467
02:28:38,760 --> 02:28:41,399
has destroyed the ability of it leads to control narratives,

2468
02:28:41,399 --> 02:28:45,120
which is causing them to become more desperate, coercive, and brilliant.

2469
02:28:45,799 --> 02:28:49,799
Speaker 5: I'm not sure if I entirely buy that theory. Fair Enough,

2470
02:28:49,840 --> 02:28:53,319
you can use the Internet to attack the elite politico

2471
02:28:53,399 --> 02:28:57,440
formula of we are truth. But you can't use the

2472
02:28:57,479 --> 02:28:59,879
internet to do is to demonstrate the falsity in the

2473
02:29:00,079 --> 02:29:02,799
letical formula that we the elites, are still in power

2474
02:29:02,920 --> 02:29:06,239
no matter what you put on the Internet, which in

2475
02:29:06,280 --> 02:29:09,719
a certain sort of way in terms of propaganda, fair enough,

2476
02:29:09,719 --> 02:29:12,520
you might feel that you've engaged in the psychological component

2477
02:29:12,559 --> 02:29:16,000
of rebellion, but you're not physically rebelling against the elites.

2478
02:29:16,200 --> 02:29:20,600
So the organizational component, that arguably the more important component

2479
02:29:21,040 --> 02:29:24,360
to any propaganda campaign, it still works. It's still there,

2480
02:29:24,440 --> 02:29:25,479
it's still got you, and it's.

2481
02:29:25,360 --> 02:29:32,200
Speaker 1: Midst Basically, what you would hope is that rising elites,

2482
02:29:32,280 --> 02:29:34,879
elites that were on your side at least, that your friends.

2483
02:29:35,760 --> 02:29:39,520
We're doing this, we're using the Internet as a Gutenberg

2484
02:29:39,600 --> 02:29:40,639
press to realize.

2485
02:29:40,799 --> 02:29:43,520
Speaker 5: Oh no, I'm not saying we shouldn't. I'm just saying

2486
02:29:43,559 --> 02:29:45,959
I don't think in and of its own is enough,

2487
02:29:46,120 --> 02:29:49,360
and that a lot of the time and energy is

2488
02:29:49,360 --> 02:29:54,639
spent trying to fight the regime on the Internet actually

2489
02:29:54,680 --> 02:29:57,520
just confirms the regime's position of power because you spend

2490
02:29:57,520 --> 02:29:59,200
all this time and energy trying to fight them and

2491
02:29:59,200 --> 02:30:01,920
they've not gone any right, at least not yet.

2492
02:30:02,600 --> 02:30:06,959
Speaker 1: Yeah, which is I guess we'll repeat it for the

2493
02:30:07,000 --> 02:30:10,000
million time during this reading, at these readings, is we

2494
02:30:10,079 --> 02:30:13,360
need to raise up our own elites, many elites, or

2495
02:30:13,360 --> 02:30:16,479
our friends as more people come to see them as

2496
02:30:16,559 --> 02:30:20,319
unmistakably totalitarian in nature, and as the gap between elite

2497
02:30:20,360 --> 02:30:24,440
and popular values wide widens, it is only a matter

2498
02:30:24,479 --> 02:30:26,920
of time until we see a circulation of elites because

2499
02:30:26,959 --> 02:30:30,000
the manager or regime is failing precisely at the moment

2500
02:30:30,040 --> 02:30:34,399
of its apparent victory. Lab I actually believe that at

2501
02:30:34,399 --> 02:30:35,319
this point.

2502
02:30:35,159 --> 02:30:36,639
Speaker 2: I see it.

2503
02:30:36,760 --> 02:30:38,959
Speaker 1: I mean it might not be in my lifetime, but

2504
02:30:39,239 --> 02:30:42,440
these things don't happen overnight. They may take a generation

2505
02:30:42,559 --> 02:30:46,639
or two. And I think I see, I see movement.

2506
02:30:47,600 --> 02:30:50,799
Speaker 5: Well, I think the most important part and something is

2507
02:30:52,440 --> 02:30:54,719
is pointed out a number of times, and I'm not

2508
02:30:54,760 --> 02:30:56,959
quite happy to see him putting out the same message

2509
02:30:56,959 --> 02:31:00,520
as that you need to watch for containments you refer to,

2510
02:31:00,680 --> 02:31:04,319
you know, don't allow the people who are of the

2511
02:31:04,360 --> 02:31:07,799
distance right now to be co opted when the regime

2512
02:31:08,159 --> 02:31:10,959
puts on a conservative mask for a year or two

2513
02:31:11,000 --> 02:31:14,319
to sort of release a bit of pressure and angst

2514
02:31:14,399 --> 02:31:18,040
people after they've been agitated for decades towards leftists.

2515
02:31:18,680 --> 02:31:22,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's leftists take power and they don't

2516
02:31:22,799 --> 02:31:25,840
really care about anything doing anything else except getting more power.

2517
02:31:25,840 --> 02:31:29,200
While they're in there, they're just building and building upon power,

2518
02:31:29,280 --> 02:31:33,120
and real conservatives and real right wingers don't do that.

2519
02:31:33,440 --> 02:31:38,280
And even the fake even the regime republicans, they don't

2520
02:31:38,319 --> 02:31:40,840
do that because they're just controlled that position for the regime.

2521
02:31:41,440 --> 02:31:45,319
Speaker 5: So well, I think earlier in the Equality is a

2522
02:31:45,319 --> 02:31:49,559
Political Weapon article, it actually makes the point that, you know,

2523
02:31:50,040 --> 02:31:53,600
one of the main reasons Conservatives were useless of fighting

2524
02:31:54,040 --> 02:31:57,959
communism during the Cowar period, and if you ignore the

2525
02:31:58,000 --> 02:32:00,719
fact that maybe the Conservatives were in Khutze for a

2526
02:32:00,760 --> 02:32:04,040
number of different reasons, is to notice that they took

2527
02:32:04,520 --> 02:32:09,000
their egalitarianism on face value, and they argued with them

2528
02:32:09,040 --> 02:32:11,559
as if they believed in a galitarianism, which if you've

2529
02:32:11,600 --> 02:32:14,520
read your lean and your angles, you know they don't

2530
02:32:14,520 --> 02:32:18,360
believe in a galitarianism. They just see as a goal

2531
02:32:18,440 --> 02:32:20,079
with a way, as you know, in the way that

2532
02:32:20,440 --> 02:32:23,000
Francis even describes earlier, he's of cutting the heads off

2533
02:32:23,000 --> 02:32:25,200
all the stems of grass so there's nothing left, and

2534
02:32:25,239 --> 02:32:27,159
flattening every hill.

2535
02:32:30,000 --> 02:32:33,360
Speaker 1: A near perfect illustration of this failure of narrative control

2536
02:32:33,440 --> 02:32:36,840
took place in early January twenty twenty two. On December

2537
02:32:36,879 --> 02:32:40,440
thirty one, twenty twenty one, Joe Rogan interviewed doctor Robert Malone,

2538
02:32:40,600 --> 02:32:43,879
the inventor of the nine original mRNA vaccine patents, the

2539
02:32:43,879 --> 02:32:46,319
author of nearly one hundred peer reviewed papers with over

2540
02:32:46,360 --> 02:32:50,559
twelve thousand citations for three hours, during which he highlighted

2541
02:32:50,600 --> 02:32:55,000
many unanswered questions about the COVID nineteen vaccine. In addition

2542
02:32:55,040 --> 02:32:57,440
to the interview, doctor Malone leads a coalition of over

2543
02:32:57,479 --> 02:33:02,120
sixteen thousand doctors and scientists dedicating to speaking truth to power.

2544
02:33:03,079 --> 02:33:07,479
Madava Sti, MD, who also holds a degree in electrical

2545
02:33:07,479 --> 02:33:10,680
engineering from MIT, then asked whether this was the most

2546
02:33:10,680 --> 02:33:14,520
important interview of our time. The interview was promptly banned

2547
02:33:14,559 --> 02:33:18,120
by YouTube and Twitter, who suspended any any attempts to

2548
02:33:18,200 --> 02:33:21,520
upload it, and doctor Malone was personally banned from Twitter.

2549
02:33:23,040 --> 02:33:26,000
Defenders of the regime, such as doctor Dan Wilson, whose

2550
02:33:26,079 --> 02:33:28,079
video was pushed to the front of the algorithm by

2551
02:33:28,079 --> 02:33:33,079
Google managers and perception, quickly denounced doctor Malone as having

2552
02:33:33,159 --> 02:33:34,639
gone full anti science.

2553
02:33:34,799 --> 02:33:36,959
Speaker 5: See I'm not too sure what to think of the

2554
02:33:37,000 --> 02:33:41,360
whole Robert Malone escapade, because if I remember correctly, when

2555
02:33:41,399 --> 02:33:46,040
he was on Robin's podcast, he had quite a lot

2556
02:33:46,040 --> 02:33:49,280
of what maybe referred to as the Boomertruth regime about,

2557
02:33:49,639 --> 02:33:55,639
and that he constantly used a sort of analogies or

2558
02:33:55,760 --> 02:34:00,000
similars referred to the mid century chairmans because those people,

2559
02:34:00,159 --> 02:34:01,840
of course, or the height of evil for what they

2560
02:34:01,879 --> 02:34:04,399
did in the nineteen forties, and that you can't question that.

2561
02:34:05,319 --> 02:34:10,360
So as much as he is against the current elites

2562
02:34:10,360 --> 02:34:14,399
in the vaccine, is willing to still go with the

2563
02:34:14,440 --> 02:34:17,840
sort of false notion that you can speak truth to power,

2564
02:34:18,239 --> 02:34:21,440
which I don't think ever happened in history. Power speaks

2565
02:34:21,479 --> 02:34:23,920
to truth and truth goes away and you have new truth.

2566
02:34:26,000 --> 02:34:28,280
And the fact that he's only willing to question such

2567
02:34:28,319 --> 02:34:30,120
a small portion of it. It's the same when you

2568
02:34:30,159 --> 02:34:33,000
look at anyone who's sort of part of the anti

2569
02:34:33,079 --> 02:34:38,879
woke grift. Fair enough, they might be against ridiculous trans policy,

2570
02:34:39,159 --> 02:34:42,319
or they'll be against the grooming staff, or they think

2571
02:34:42,399 --> 02:34:46,840
BLM's taking it too far, but they always fall back on,

2572
02:34:47,799 --> 02:34:49,639
you know, consensus liberalism. I mean, that was one of

2573
02:34:49,719 --> 02:34:52,760
the points I found interesting about the MLK sort of

2574
02:34:52,799 --> 02:34:55,319
pieces that, as I said earlier, on the left is

2575
02:34:55,360 --> 02:34:58,639
already dispensed with MLK because it's not useful to them anymore.

2576
02:34:59,040 --> 02:35:02,600
And the only people that to MLK nowadays are right

2577
02:35:02,639 --> 02:35:05,879
wingers that for some reason they're making sevil rights arguments.

2578
02:35:07,520 --> 02:35:10,079
Speaker 1: Well, they have to prove that they're good people, that

2579
02:35:10,079 --> 02:35:10,959
they're not racist.

2580
02:35:11,079 --> 02:35:14,760
Speaker 5: Well, yeah, the democrats are the real racist guys?

2581
02:35:14,760 --> 02:35:19,120
Speaker 1: Such a great argument. Great imagine if the roles were reversed.

2582
02:35:20,280 --> 02:35:23,360
Speaker 5: Imagine f the shoe was on the other foot.

2583
02:35:23,840 --> 02:35:29,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, God legacy mainstream media outlets quickly set to work

2584
02:35:29,520 --> 02:35:33,319
to debunk doctor Malone, who, despite his obvious credentials, was

2585
02:35:33,360 --> 02:35:37,719
said to have no academic credibility by experts and reported

2586
02:35:38,000 --> 02:35:41,120
breathlessly by twenty something journalists and well known and once

2587
02:35:41,159 --> 02:35:46,440
respected newspapers. I'd argue with that whether they were once respected.

2588
02:35:48,040 --> 02:35:53,680
Then CNN ran a piece hosted by Brian Stelter entitled

2589
02:35:53,840 --> 02:35:56,760
is the media out of Touch with the country? Over COVID.

2590
02:35:57,319 --> 02:36:02,000
Stelter's colleague Oliver Darcy said, a lot of the media

2591
02:36:02,079 --> 02:36:04,719
does seem, as I look at it and travel the country,

2592
02:36:04,760 --> 02:36:06,680
to be very out of touch with people. I mean,

2593
02:36:06,680 --> 02:36:09,479
if you travel the country, people are not really living

2594
02:36:09,520 --> 02:36:12,559
in the same bubble. It seems that the media is messaging.

2595
02:36:13,200 --> 02:36:15,479
It seems that the media is messaging toward and so

2596
02:36:16,000 --> 02:36:18,079
I think this is an issue because if people are

2597
02:36:18,120 --> 02:36:21,239
tuning out what's going on in cable news, if we're

2598
02:36:21,239 --> 02:36:25,000
not messaging towards general population, then they're just ignoring everything

2599
02:36:25,000 --> 02:36:28,600
and living their lives and we're really not and we're

2600
02:36:28,600 --> 02:36:31,200
not really getting the information that they need to them.

2601
02:36:31,600 --> 02:36:34,879
Speaker 5: See, this is me really tapping into my inner scenic here.

2602
02:36:35,440 --> 02:36:38,479
This is not people from CNN having a moment of clarity.

2603
02:36:39,000 --> 02:36:43,000
This is people from CNN engaging in a limited hangout

2604
02:36:43,280 --> 02:36:45,479
as they try and make you ignore the idea of

2605
02:36:45,559 --> 02:36:49,520
it's not the fact that they're messaging towards a different bubble,

2606
02:36:49,559 --> 02:36:53,120
as they're messaging people to try and move into that bubble.

2607
02:36:53,520 --> 02:36:56,239
It doesn't exist already. That's why the media messaging is

2608
02:36:56,239 --> 02:36:59,399
there for it, because they're trying to create it. Right,

2609
02:36:59,559 --> 02:37:02,360
seem to have the causality of their own work backwards.

2610
02:37:02,360 --> 02:37:04,719
I'm I'm sure they wouldn't make such a selly mistake

2611
02:37:04,799 --> 02:37:05,000
like that.

2612
02:37:05,079 --> 02:37:09,600
Speaker 1: Again, all right, From the standpoint of what we have

2613
02:37:09,680 --> 02:37:13,760
been discussing as regards managerial elites, this episode is remarkable

2614
02:37:13,799 --> 02:37:16,479
for at least three reasons. First, it is obvious that

2615
02:37:16,559 --> 02:37:19,360
doctor Malone and has banned sixteen thousand doctors and sciences

2616
02:37:19,360 --> 02:37:23,639
are managerial elits by the classic Burnham definition technical experts,

2617
02:37:24,079 --> 02:37:26,399
and they have broken decisively with the regime over its

2618
02:37:26,440 --> 02:37:30,760
management of the pandemic. Second, Joe Rogan's podcast has become

2619
02:37:30,799 --> 02:37:33,280
more watched and listened to than CNN or any other

2620
02:37:33,360 --> 02:37:36,600
legacy media outlet, to the extent that one might question

2621
02:37:36,680 --> 02:37:41,239
whether the labels alternative and mainstream are still appropriate. Third,

2622
02:37:41,559 --> 02:37:45,040
the managerial master is of persuasion openly complained about their

2623
02:37:45,120 --> 02:37:48,920
message about that their messaging is not working and that

2624
02:37:49,159 --> 02:37:51,959
in effect, no one is listening to them. If only

2625
02:37:52,000 --> 02:37:54,559
the White House or CNN could hire Edward Burnees, maybe

2626
02:37:54,600 --> 02:37:57,360
things might be different. But one suspects that even if

2627
02:37:57,360 --> 02:38:00,319
Bernes himself was managing this, he could do nothing about

2628
02:38:00,360 --> 02:38:03,479
the loss of monopoly control over information flow that has

2629
02:38:03,520 --> 02:38:04,760
been caused by the Internet.

2630
02:38:06,040 --> 02:38:07,680
Speaker 2: Do you I mean the.

2631
02:38:08,079 --> 02:38:13,680
Speaker 1: Problem I have with that is that it almost seems,

2632
02:38:13,760 --> 02:38:16,360
and you know, it almost seems like he's writing to

2633
02:38:16,399 --> 02:38:19,760
the bubble because most people are not going on the

2634
02:38:19,799 --> 02:38:23,959
Internet to debunk what they're seeing, you know, what they're

2635
02:38:23,959 --> 02:38:26,559
what they're seeing on Twitter, and that's you and me

2636
02:38:26,719 --> 02:38:29,000
doing that. You know, it's AA doing it. It's you know,

2637
02:38:29,159 --> 02:38:33,079
our it's our crowd. But the average person who you know,

2638
02:38:33,120 --> 02:38:37,159
quote unquote just wants to grill, is not going I

2639
02:38:37,200 --> 02:38:39,360
don't think they're going home and searching the internet and

2640
02:38:40,200 --> 02:38:42,319
looking to debunk what they're seeing on the news. Maybe

2641
02:38:42,319 --> 02:38:44,959
they don't believe it, maybe they think it's fake news,

2642
02:38:45,559 --> 02:38:47,479
except of course, if it's if it has to do

2643
02:38:47,479 --> 02:38:54,079
with Ukraine. But the don't get me started. The but yeah,

2644
02:38:54,120 --> 02:38:57,639
I question how many people are actually doing this considering

2645
02:38:57,680 --> 02:38:59,239
the regime just is going on.

2646
02:39:00,239 --> 02:39:02,079
Speaker 5: Well, you know, you can, you can tell straight away.

2647
02:39:02,079 --> 02:39:04,639
I mean, how many people actually sit down and spend

2648
02:39:04,680 --> 02:39:08,319
the time to read political works and go straight to

2649
02:39:08,360 --> 02:39:11,399
the source. And you know, well, what did what did

2650
02:39:11,479 --> 02:39:14,360
Carl Schmidt actually have to say instead of just reading

2651
02:39:14,799 --> 02:39:17,840
academic papers when they call him a Nazi? You know

2652
02:39:17,920 --> 02:39:20,159
what did he actually have to say? It's such a

2653
02:39:20,200 --> 02:39:23,399
small number of people. And I think it's I think

2654
02:39:23,440 --> 02:39:26,159
it's if anything, it's it's nice to a is writing

2655
02:39:26,280 --> 02:39:29,440
to that in group. He's talking to, you know, the

2656
02:39:29,520 --> 02:39:32,799
vanguard as it were, as you say, people like ourselves,

2657
02:39:32,840 --> 02:39:34,879
if we, if we could do ourselves a hubris to

2658
02:39:35,079 --> 02:39:38,159
adopt such a label, because you know, we are pushing

2659
02:39:38,159 --> 02:39:41,520
the forefront of specifically these set of ideas that he's

2660
02:39:41,520 --> 02:39:44,840
discussing here. I mean, I think this, this chapter in

2661
02:39:44,879 --> 02:39:46,520
and of itself, even though it's not the final one

2662
02:39:46,559 --> 02:39:49,159
of the book, does a fantastic job of wrapping up

2663
02:39:49,360 --> 02:39:51,920
a lot of the themes that people will have picked

2664
02:39:51,959 --> 02:39:52,719
up on at the start.

2665
02:39:52,719 --> 02:39:56,680
Speaker 1: I hope sure, because when you're reading the early chapters,

2666
02:39:56,719 --> 02:39:59,079
there's a lot of theory. There's a lot of things

2667
02:39:59,079 --> 02:40:01,200
people aren't going to get. They're going to read it,

2668
02:40:01,600 --> 02:40:04,959
read a page and maybe say, I don't really know

2669
02:40:05,000 --> 02:40:06,639
what I just read. I'm just going to push on.

2670
02:40:07,399 --> 02:40:09,600
And I think AA does a great job of when

2671
02:40:09,600 --> 02:40:12,239
he presenting the theory at the beginning of the chapters,

2672
02:40:12,280 --> 02:40:14,639
and then as the chapter goes on, it becomes more

2673
02:40:14,639 --> 02:40:16,959
practical because well, I don't know if it becomes more practical,

2674
02:40:17,000 --> 02:40:20,120
it just becomes He's writing it easier, saying, okay that

2675
02:40:20,319 --> 02:40:22,879
everything I said back there, that kind of you know,

2676
02:40:22,920 --> 02:40:25,520
maybe doesn't make sense to you. I'm breaking it down

2677
02:40:25,559 --> 02:40:29,040
for you here. And I think that's what Francis this friend.

2678
02:40:29,399 --> 02:40:31,959
What the Francis chapter and that Paul Godfrey chapter does

2679
02:40:32,040 --> 02:40:35,120
is it takes the whole book and it goes, this

2680
02:40:35,200 --> 02:40:39,079
is what's happening now, and just so we can show

2681
02:40:39,120 --> 02:40:42,639
you that elite theory is real. Look at what's happening now.

2682
02:40:43,239 --> 02:40:47,440
It's impossible to argue with I mean, people still want

2683
02:40:47,479 --> 02:40:49,200
to argue with it, but that's because they're holding onto

2684
02:40:49,200 --> 02:40:50,719
their ideologies like a religion.

2685
02:40:50,879 --> 02:40:53,680
Speaker 2: So yep, all right.

2686
02:40:54,079 --> 02:40:56,399
Speaker 1: Let us return to Francis, who longed for a revolution

2687
02:40:56,559 --> 02:40:59,239
from the middle and saw its scope in what he

2688
02:40:59,280 --> 02:41:03,280
called the post bourgeois resistance, made up of the middle class,

2689
02:41:03,399 --> 02:41:07,680
including coolots or petite bourgeois, the lower middle class, and

2690
02:41:07,879 --> 02:41:11,719
the working class. This is straightforward. This is a straightforward

2691
02:41:11,760 --> 02:41:15,159
Foxes versus Lions or class one residues versus class two

2692
02:41:15,280 --> 02:41:19,760
residues analysis derived from Pereto's strong influence on Francis's thinking.

2693
02:41:20,280 --> 02:41:23,840
Speaker 5: Quote quickly before you get into the core there. This

2694
02:41:23,920 --> 02:41:27,840
is also something that Len and his friends spent many

2695
02:41:27,879 --> 02:41:31,360
hours arguing over was the fact that the self employed,

2696
02:41:31,680 --> 02:41:35,079
the handy man, the man that was self taught in

2697
02:41:35,200 --> 02:41:38,799
some kind of practical skill, was the most reactionary force

2698
02:41:38,840 --> 02:41:42,719
that existed, even more so than massive sort of conglomer

2699
02:41:42,879 --> 02:41:47,159
international organizations of capital and whatever else, because they were slow,

2700
02:41:47,319 --> 02:41:50,280
they were lethargic, and they ultimately weren't connected to the

2701
02:41:50,399 --> 02:41:54,399
soil and the way that as some sort of self

2702
02:41:54,479 --> 02:41:55,520
employed tradesman.

2703
02:41:55,600 --> 02:42:02,959
Speaker 1: As Yeah, I've had conversations with people call themselves Marxist Leninists,

2704
02:42:02,959 --> 02:42:06,600
And it's very rare that you actually have a conversation

2705
02:42:06,680 --> 02:42:08,760
with a real Marxist leniness. They always turn out to

2706
02:42:08,760 --> 02:42:12,879
be woke bluegi progs. But the but when you do

2707
02:42:13,000 --> 02:42:15,280
talk to them and you let them know, hey, I'm

2708
02:42:15,319 --> 02:42:18,520
self employed, I work for myself, and they immediately think,

2709
02:42:19,479 --> 02:42:21,360
you know, this is someone that we can talk to,

2710
02:42:21,479 --> 02:42:23,959
This is someone that we can recruit. This is our

2711
02:42:24,079 --> 02:42:28,440
natural you know, someone naturally who would be drawn to us.

2712
02:42:28,799 --> 02:42:33,840
If you're not, they're mad. They get mad if you

2713
02:42:33,879 --> 02:42:35,959
are self employed. If you were you know, just a

2714
02:42:36,040 --> 02:42:41,239
normal cool locket, just the guy who works owns owns,

2715
02:42:41,559 --> 02:42:43,120
you know, a company that he works for on him

2716
02:42:43,440 --> 02:42:46,200
by himself, and drives a pickup truck every day. If

2717
02:42:46,200 --> 02:42:50,319
you are not down with them, you become their enemy

2718
02:42:50,399 --> 02:42:50,920
very quickly.

2719
02:42:51,799 --> 02:42:54,079
Speaker 5: But those people own their own cap or why would

2720
02:42:54,079 --> 02:42:55,479
they want to do that to them?

2721
02:42:57,000 --> 02:42:59,079
Speaker 1: All right, go back a little bit. This is straightforward

2722
02:42:59,159 --> 02:43:02,920
Foxes versuss or class one residues versus Class two residues

2723
02:43:03,239 --> 02:43:07,280
analysis derived from Pereto's strong influence on Francis's thinking, Quoting

2724
02:43:07,719 --> 02:43:11,760
post bourgeois groups manifest hot hostility not only to the

2725
02:43:11,799 --> 02:43:15,239
ideology of the soft managerial regime and to the psychic

2726
02:43:15,559 --> 02:43:19,239
and behavioral patterns of its elite, but also to the

2727
02:43:18,440 --> 02:43:22,840
manipulative style of dominance that characterizes the elite, and the

2728
02:43:22,920 --> 02:43:27,159
tendency to acceleration on which the elite relies for the

2729
02:43:27,159 --> 02:43:32,920
preservation and enhancement of its power the managerial. The managerial

2730
02:43:33,079 --> 02:43:37,440
use of manipulation and acceleration not only alienates post bourgeois

2731
02:43:37,520 --> 02:43:41,639
groups culturally and morally, but also threatens their economic position

2732
02:43:41,879 --> 02:43:47,799
and social status. When commentators say that Francis predicted the

2733
02:43:47,920 --> 02:43:50,639
rise of Donald Trump, it was for passages like this,

2734
02:43:51,120 --> 02:43:55,239
in which he perfectly encapsulates the essential problem. It does

2735
02:43:55,239 --> 02:43:58,079
not appear that Francis was aware of Juvenile's work, but

2736
02:43:58,159 --> 02:44:01,840
he spots the alliance between elite to the underclass, particularly

2737
02:44:02,159 --> 02:44:07,000
its non white is, particularly its non white components. Although

2738
02:44:07,319 --> 02:44:09,920
Francis could not have foreseen the rise of the Internet,

2739
02:44:10,159 --> 02:44:16,000
he recognizes several vulnerabilities in the managerial regime. Drawing from Mosca,

2740
02:44:16,079 --> 02:44:18,879
he views the fact that the elite are monolithic and

2741
02:44:19,040 --> 02:44:23,200
uniform as being a weakness, which is ironic giving their

2742
02:44:23,239 --> 02:44:29,079
famous slogan diversity as our strength. Quoting the formal mechanisms

2743
02:44:29,120 --> 02:44:34,280
of mass liberal democracy, regular elections, competing political parties, Universal suffrage,

2744
02:44:34,479 --> 02:44:37,920
and legal and political rights do not significantly mitigate the

2745
02:44:37,959 --> 02:44:43,600
monolithic and uniform concentration of managerial power, the despotism of

2746
02:44:43,639 --> 02:44:47,520
the regime, its tendency towards a monopolization of political, economic,

2747
02:44:47,600 --> 02:44:51,680
and cultural power by a single social and political force

2748
02:44:51,719 --> 02:44:56,040
of managerial and technical skills, and the expansive, uniform and

2749
02:44:56,120 --> 02:44:59,799
centralized nature of its power is a direct consequence of

2750
02:44:59,840 --> 02:45:03,239
the contracted composition of the elite and the restriction of

2751
02:45:03,280 --> 02:45:07,680
its membership to elements proficient to managerial and technical skills.

2752
02:45:09,000 --> 02:45:12,239
The narrowness of the elite that results from this restriction

2753
02:45:12,840 --> 02:45:16,120
insulates it from the influence of non managerial social and

2754
02:45:16,159 --> 02:45:20,399
political forces and reduces their ability to gain positions within

2755
02:45:20,799 --> 02:45:24,079
the elite from which they can moderate, balance, or restrain

2756
02:45:24,159 --> 02:45:28,239
its commands. Their exclusion from the elite contributes to the

2757
02:45:28,280 --> 02:45:33,079
frustration of their aspirations and interests, and encourages their alienation

2758
02:45:33,239 --> 02:45:37,600
from and conflict with the elite, and the destabilization and

2759
02:45:37,719 --> 02:45:39,120
weakening of the regime.

2760
02:45:40,200 --> 02:45:44,639
Speaker 5: What a paragraph I mean home? More quickly and concisely

2761
02:45:44,680 --> 02:45:48,360
could you sum up a sort of analytical view of

2762
02:45:48,399 --> 02:45:53,920
the poweradynamics and as he says, mass liberal democracy, and

2763
02:45:54,079 --> 02:45:55,040
I mean it.

2764
02:45:55,120 --> 02:45:58,600
Speaker 1: Just goes to show that you read that and then

2765
02:45:58,639 --> 02:46:02,639
you look at something like, Okay, a bunch of ideologues

2766
02:46:02,959 --> 02:46:07,440
are going to take over a bureaucratic organization. Well, how

2767
02:46:07,440 --> 02:46:10,920
do if a bunch of ideologues take over a bureaucratic organization,

2768
02:46:11,399 --> 02:46:15,239
what's the easiest way to fight back against, you know,

2769
02:46:15,319 --> 02:46:20,079
to neutralize the influence of those ideologues, the organization has

2770
02:46:20,079 --> 02:46:26,079
to be run by bureaucrats. Ideologues aren't managerial. You need

2771
02:46:26,120 --> 02:46:30,319
managerial people, and managerial people come in. Eventually they're going

2772
02:46:30,399 --> 02:46:34,559
to end up being in charge and dictating with the direction.

2773
02:46:35,479 --> 02:46:38,079
Speaker 5: See I think they move one and the same though

2774
02:46:38,319 --> 02:46:44,799
that one tends to follow the other either in both directions.

2775
02:46:44,840 --> 02:46:50,639
That managerialism and an organization allows for science and social

2776
02:46:50,639 --> 02:46:54,600
science specifically to then inform more and more of its policies.

2777
02:46:54,600 --> 02:46:57,000
And then from that you have a natural tendency to

2778
02:46:57,840 --> 02:47:01,239
walk crap anyway, because that's what dominates and has dominated

2779
02:47:01,879 --> 02:47:07,520
the intellectual social sciences for decades. So it's almost kind

2780
02:47:07,520 --> 02:47:09,520
of like the point earlier about you know, what do

2781
02:47:09,559 --> 02:47:13,840
they believe in the ideas and are somewhat irrelevant because

2782
02:47:13,879 --> 02:47:16,479
it's just the fact that the act and the way

2783
02:47:16,520 --> 02:47:18,840
that they do anyway, that is the important part.

2784
02:47:20,399 --> 02:47:25,319
Speaker 1: Last paragraph. This destabilization takes the form of decomposition and

2785
02:47:25,399 --> 02:47:28,959
fragmentation in the social order, which we have undoubtedly witnessed

2786
02:47:28,959 --> 02:47:32,200
in the three decades since Francis was writing. Since the

2787
02:47:32,239 --> 02:47:35,239
manager or regime is soft and frequently does not actually

2788
02:47:35,280 --> 02:47:39,159
solve problems, but ops rather simply to manage perception or

2789
02:47:39,200 --> 02:47:43,440
engineer consent, it seems likely that the de facto Balkanization

2790
02:47:43,600 --> 02:47:47,079
will begin to occur in both the USA and Europe.

2791
02:47:48,280 --> 02:47:51,120
So called no go zones in which the authorities have

2792
02:47:51,239 --> 02:47:54,559
essentially given up policing, have already emerged in major cities.

2793
02:47:55,399 --> 02:47:58,559
While these have to date occurred in non white areas

2794
02:47:58,600 --> 02:48:03,040
populated by the underclass as postboys. While white populations become

2795
02:48:03,120 --> 02:48:06,920
more disaffected by managerial elite rule, and even if they

2796
02:48:06,959 --> 02:48:11,040
come to distrust the authorities themselves, it is perfectly possible

2797
02:48:11,360 --> 02:48:15,360
that de facto autonomous no go zones could occur in

2798
02:48:15,399 --> 02:48:19,680
white areas too. In the USA, both the Trump and

2799
02:48:19,719 --> 02:48:24,440
Biden presidencies have been characterized by widespread state level non

2800
02:48:24,479 --> 02:48:28,239
compliance with federal and executive edicts. If half the country

2801
02:48:28,280 --> 02:48:31,239
declared that the president is not my president. No matter

2802
02:48:31,280 --> 02:48:34,159
who wins the election, the regime has a serious problem

2803
02:48:34,200 --> 02:48:37,559
on its hands. As I have mentioned previously, the current

2804
02:48:37,600 --> 02:48:40,200
strategy of simply writing off thirty percent or more of

2805
02:48:40,239 --> 02:48:45,520
the population as undesirables simply cannot serve. In Moscow's terms.

2806
02:48:45,639 --> 02:48:48,440
There is a lack of moral unity between the rulers

2807
02:48:48,440 --> 02:48:51,959
and the rule, and historically this situation has not and

2808
02:48:52,040 --> 02:48:53,440
will not persist for long.

2809
02:48:55,120 --> 02:48:56,639
Speaker 5: We can but only hope.

2810
02:48:58,799 --> 02:49:03,719
Speaker 1: Well, you know, I'm wondering. I wonder just how many

2811
02:49:03,760 --> 02:49:07,760
people have checked out like they just don't care. You

2812
02:49:07,760 --> 02:49:11,280
know what percentage is that? I remember a couple of

2813
02:49:11,360 --> 02:49:14,280
years ago, what was it like forty five to forty

2814
02:49:14,319 --> 02:49:17,200
eight percent of the population here didn't vote in I

2815
02:49:17,280 --> 02:49:20,159
think twenty sixteen or twenty twelve election.

2816
02:49:21,399 --> 02:49:24,879
Speaker 2: So, you know, if the.

2817
02:49:23,959 --> 02:49:26,799
Speaker 5: Guide go to say, but as if we learned the

2818
02:49:26,840 --> 02:49:31,399
important lesson from the previous chapter for Michael's that the

2819
02:49:31,799 --> 02:49:33,840
total number of what you have in your group really

2820
02:49:33,840 --> 02:49:36,799
doesn't make much of a difference and the mass will

2821
02:49:36,799 --> 02:49:39,920
always be there. I mean, I put it in why

2822
02:49:39,959 --> 02:49:42,200
I think my speech on van Guardism for a normous

2823
02:49:42,200 --> 02:49:45,120
event a while back that the mass is a sort

2824
02:49:45,120 --> 02:49:50,879
of indistinguishable quantity in society, but it reflects the centrality

2825
02:49:51,000 --> 02:49:55,440
of our cultural products. And it doesn't mean that it's

2826
02:49:55,479 --> 02:49:58,200
always seventy five percent of people that consume it are

2827
02:49:58,200 --> 02:50:01,520
twenty five percent, but the some number and it's enough

2828
02:50:01,520 --> 02:50:04,079
to make it look like there is a consensus. And

2829
02:50:04,120 --> 02:50:06,600
that's you know, in the passage we were looking at

2830
02:50:06,600 --> 02:50:10,120
where Leppmann sort of try to suggest that public opinion

2831
02:50:10,159 --> 02:50:12,120
doesn't even really exist, it's just constructed.

2832
02:50:13,200 --> 02:50:16,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, and well, I think the point of bringing up

2833
02:50:16,559 --> 02:50:19,760
the amount of people who aren't voting is, I mean,

2834
02:50:19,799 --> 02:50:24,879
these are in worse terms, These are people who are

2835
02:50:24,920 --> 02:50:30,280
either apathetic or they could be angry, and that doesn't

2836
02:50:30,319 --> 02:50:33,399
bode well for the regime. So I'm looking for hope,

2837
02:50:33,399 --> 02:50:35,600
I'm looking for the white pills. I'm looking for the

2838
02:50:35,600 --> 02:50:38,680
white pills and all of this, because you know, it's

2839
02:50:38,760 --> 02:50:40,719
it's very easy to get black pilled over all this

2840
02:50:40,959 --> 02:50:44,559
until you understand it, and once you understand it, once

2841
02:50:44,600 --> 02:50:48,280
you grasp it, and once you once you know how

2842
02:50:48,360 --> 02:50:52,719
power works, maybe there is that, you know, that denial

2843
02:50:52,799 --> 02:50:55,760
phase where you're just like, well, you know, there's the

2844
02:50:55,760 --> 02:50:57,680
denial phase. No, no, we can't work, and then there

2845
02:50:57,760 --> 02:51:00,680
is the you know, you're you're like, well, I mean,

2846
02:51:01,239 --> 02:51:04,079
how we can't raise up people like this? And then

2847
02:51:04,079 --> 02:51:06,120
you realize we're just going to have to raise up people,

2848
02:51:07,040 --> 02:51:07,959
raise elites.

2849
02:51:08,120 --> 02:51:12,479
Speaker 5: Well, That's the thing I've always found sort of very

2850
02:51:13,079 --> 02:51:16,799
comforting actually is that when people, you know, they they

2851
02:51:16,840 --> 02:51:20,159
work out what's going wrong and they realize that a

2852
02:51:20,200 --> 02:51:23,319
lot of things are actually arguably possibly a bit hopeless.

2853
02:51:23,959 --> 02:51:25,799
But what it means is that your choices of what

2854
02:51:25,840 --> 02:51:28,639
you can do to affect action are actually quite slim.

2855
02:51:29,159 --> 02:51:33,319
And once you understand the core goal, which is developing

2856
02:51:33,360 --> 02:51:36,479
and raising a new class of elites, then that's all

2857
02:51:36,479 --> 02:51:38,479
you need to do, and you just need a headlong

2858
02:51:38,559 --> 02:51:40,959
stick into that with whatever resources and time you have,

2859
02:51:41,600 --> 02:51:44,239
And that becomes a lot more as I say, maybe

2860
02:51:44,239 --> 02:51:46,840
it's the best word, the confidence inspiring, maybe because then

2861
02:51:46,879 --> 02:51:48,719
you know the path that you're supposed to go on.

2862
02:51:50,040 --> 02:51:54,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's the problem. I think that I've

2863
02:51:54,559 --> 02:51:57,879
had some people that contacted by some people and say

2864
02:51:58,280 --> 02:52:00,879
not say that they were black pilled, said that people

2865
02:52:00,879 --> 02:52:03,799
had listened to like the first chapter one, chapter two

2866
02:52:03,879 --> 02:52:07,200
with with Stephen, and then they looked more into elite

2867
02:52:07,200 --> 02:52:11,079
theory and that it blackpilled them. And you know, it's like,

2868
02:52:11,680 --> 02:52:16,200
this isn't black pilling. If you figure out, once you

2869
02:52:16,239 --> 02:52:19,879
figure out how it works, that's not black pilling. Then

2870
02:52:19,959 --> 02:52:22,079
you just have to come up, you know. And you know,

2871
02:52:22,159 --> 02:52:28,159
especially like libertarians, they're so good at diagnosing. Well, this

2872
02:52:28,239 --> 02:52:32,879
also gives you how you fix it too, because libertarians

2873
02:52:32,920 --> 02:52:34,959
have that. You know, it's that whole South Park thing.

2874
02:52:35,000 --> 02:52:39,879
It's like collect underpants, you know, question Mark profit. It

2875
02:52:39,879 --> 02:52:42,840
gives you that middle, it gives you what's in the middle.

2876
02:52:43,479 --> 02:52:46,680
Speaker 5: Well, see, I don't know, I've kind of I find

2877
02:52:46,680 --> 02:52:52,680
the elite theory stuff very easy because you know, again

2878
02:52:53,319 --> 02:52:55,559
stepping into the depths of hubris, it's kind of how

2879
02:52:55,600 --> 02:52:59,799
I've just always seen and understood humans anyway. On a

2880
02:52:59,840 --> 02:53:03,159
fundamental level, we are not all the same. We are

2881
02:53:03,159 --> 02:53:05,200
not equal, and that means that we are not equal

2882
02:53:05,239 --> 02:53:10,639
in capacities to organize, which is possibly the most differing

2883
02:53:10,760 --> 02:53:14,120
fundamental capacity in people as a whole. As your ability

2884
02:53:14,159 --> 02:53:17,639
to organize allows you to be an entrepreneur, be a

2885
02:53:17,639 --> 02:53:20,159
political actor, be an elite as it were.

2886
02:53:21,399 --> 02:53:26,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you can organize, the problem is as as

2887
02:53:26,959 --> 02:53:31,120
this book is laid out, is the masses are unorganized

2888
02:53:31,120 --> 02:53:36,120
and underfunded or not funded at all. So there's your

2889
02:53:36,559 --> 02:53:38,319
that's what you have to do. And you know you're

2890
02:53:38,360 --> 02:53:41,319
not the masses aren't going to organize. It's going to

2891
02:53:41,360 --> 02:53:43,559
be what you call, you know, what you reference as

2892
02:53:43,600 --> 02:53:47,280
a vanguard, and the van the vanguard will organize. The

2893
02:53:47,360 --> 02:53:49,479
vanguard will find the elites. Maybe the elites are among

2894
02:53:49,520 --> 02:53:52,120
the vanguard, and you raise up those elites and then

2895
02:53:52,159 --> 02:53:56,000
you go to work and you know it's it may

2896
02:53:56,040 --> 02:53:59,120
not you know, and I'll talk to libertarians again, it

2897
02:53:59,200 --> 02:54:01,719
may not happen in this lifetime. But you're not going

2898
02:54:01,760 --> 02:54:03,600
to get in Capistan in this lifetime.

2899
02:54:04,040 --> 02:54:06,159
Speaker 2: You're not hope.

2900
02:54:06,479 --> 02:54:07,959
Speaker 1: One thing you can hope for is you get like

2901
02:54:08,760 --> 02:54:12,959
close to something approximating like a hoppy and covenant community

2902
02:54:13,079 --> 02:54:15,600
or private city or private law city or something like that.

2903
02:54:15,920 --> 02:54:18,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's that's something I said to a lot of

2904
02:54:18,040 --> 02:54:20,520
people over the course of the week. It means, as

2905
02:54:20,559 --> 02:54:24,120
you when there were sort of the issues of culture

2906
02:54:24,239 --> 02:54:26,280
and other sort of things would come up, and then

2907
02:54:26,319 --> 02:54:28,719
they would they want to crawl into this sort of

2908
02:54:28,760 --> 02:54:32,520
libertarian safe space of not having all well, I'm indifferent

2909
02:54:32,559 --> 02:54:34,440
on these things. I just think you shouldn't be able

2910
02:54:34,479 --> 02:54:37,120
to enforce your values blah blah blah. And also I

2911
02:54:37,120 --> 02:54:39,079
said to them, well with you know, I love the

2912
02:54:39,120 --> 02:54:43,639
picture Austrian economics paints, but without radical political action, you're

2913
02:54:43,680 --> 02:54:45,159
never going to have the canvas for it.

2914
02:54:46,360 --> 02:54:49,840
Speaker 1: It's a good way of putting it. That's we should

2915
02:54:49,840 --> 02:54:54,159
probably end on that. I suppose you're gonna do any

2916
02:54:54,159 --> 02:54:54,719
better than that one.

2917
02:54:54,760 --> 02:54:55,319
Speaker 2: I don't think.

2918
02:54:57,959 --> 02:54:58,600
Speaker 5: Peak already.

2919
02:54:58,719 --> 02:54:58,760
Speaker 6: No.

2920
02:54:58,879 --> 02:55:01,799
Speaker 5: I will say, though, if if people haven't already, do

2921
02:55:01,920 --> 02:55:04,399
pick up a copy of A's book, and then if

2922
02:55:04,399 --> 02:55:07,719
you want to become part of the real vanguard, go

2923
02:55:07,799 --> 02:55:10,959
grab a copy of Sam Francis Levis and Its Enemies

2924
02:55:10,959 --> 02:55:14,479
before it becomes possible to buy, or hit me up

2925
02:55:14,520 --> 02:55:16,959
for the archive pdf link.

2926
02:55:18,840 --> 02:55:20,719
Speaker 1: I will I will hit you up for that because

2927
02:55:21,000 --> 02:55:23,000
I'll probably end up doing that, probably use it more

2928
02:55:23,040 --> 02:55:25,120
as a reference so that I can control f on it.

2929
02:55:26,399 --> 02:55:27,639
Anything else to plug.

2930
02:55:28,680 --> 02:55:30,760
Speaker 5: Just that you can find me on the YouTube channel

2931
02:55:30,760 --> 02:55:33,600
scrump monkey. And then I'm sure, if possible, you could

2932
02:55:33,600 --> 02:55:36,600
throw the link for the telegram channel where people can

2933
02:55:36,639 --> 02:55:38,559
find me in the description.

2934
02:55:38,200 --> 02:55:38,920
Speaker 7: Or wherever else.

2935
02:55:39,399 --> 02:55:42,360
Speaker 1: I can absolutely do both of those. Right, Well, thank you,

2936
02:55:42,479 --> 02:55:46,319
thank you, thank you. Ee take care you too. I

2937
02:55:46,360 --> 02:55:49,600
want to welcome everyone back to the Pecanana Show, returning

2938
02:55:49,959 --> 02:55:50,799
Pedro Gonzalez.

2939
02:55:50,879 --> 02:55:51,520
Speaker 2: How are you doing, Peedra?

2940
02:55:52,200 --> 02:55:53,840
Speaker 3: I'm well, how are you doing?

2941
02:55:53,959 --> 02:55:55,079
Speaker 2: Very well? All right?

2942
02:55:55,120 --> 02:55:59,120
Speaker 1: We are here to read and comments on chapter nine

2943
02:55:59,159 --> 02:56:02,639
of Nima PARTYNI is the Populist Delusion, and this one

2944
02:56:02,680 --> 02:56:06,559
is called the Therapeutic State, and it goes over the

2945
02:56:06,559 --> 02:56:10,120
writings of Paul Gottfried. And you are an editor at Chronicles.

2946
02:56:10,159 --> 02:56:12,719
I believe that Paul is the senior editor at Chronicles.

2947
02:56:14,120 --> 02:56:15,280
Why is Paul special to you?

2948
02:56:16,239 --> 02:56:21,239
Speaker 3: I think he's he's like the most underrated living scholar

2949
02:56:21,559 --> 02:56:24,440
of our time who really understands the issues in a

2950
02:56:24,479 --> 02:56:28,200
way that other people don't. Paul's level of learning is unusual.

2951
02:56:29,479 --> 02:56:31,600
You certainly don't see it on the mainstream, right, someone

2952
02:56:31,600 --> 02:56:35,600
who's actually an intellectual in the true sense. And I

2953
02:56:35,639 --> 02:56:44,440
think his his his ability to entertain an actually diverse

2954
02:56:44,760 --> 02:56:47,040
array of ideas and thinkers, even those that are considered

2955
02:56:47,040 --> 02:56:49,920
controversial at Carl Schmidt, and then apply what he learns

2956
02:56:50,000 --> 02:56:53,360
in a way that's that's relevant, you know, even ten

2957
02:56:53,440 --> 02:56:56,600
years after the fact. In this case, we're going to

2958
02:56:56,600 --> 02:56:59,319
be talking about after liberalism and manage Ualism the Politics

2959
02:56:59,319 --> 02:57:02,000
of Guilt. These are not new books. These are books

2960
02:57:02,040 --> 02:57:07,079
written a decade or so ago, and the insights from

2961
02:57:07,120 --> 02:57:10,920
them are still as relevant or more relevant than ever. Actually, so,

2962
02:57:11,360 --> 02:57:16,799
Paul is an unusual luminary, I think in a good way.

2963
02:57:17,440 --> 02:57:19,799
Speaker 1: Well spoken, well spoken. I've had him on to talk

2964
02:57:19,840 --> 02:57:23,959
about fascism and anti fascism, and I've had him on

2965
02:57:24,000 --> 02:57:28,559
to talk about stress and the neocons. So yeah, it's amazing,

2966
02:57:28,840 --> 02:57:31,959
amazing what he knows. All right, So, just like all

2967
02:57:31,959 --> 02:57:33,879
the rest of the chapters, I'm going to read, I'm

2968
02:57:33,879 --> 02:57:36,399
going to share screen, put this up there, and you

2969
02:57:36,479 --> 02:57:39,559
stop anytime that you feel like you need to comment,

2970
02:57:39,719 --> 02:57:40,879
and I'll do the same.

2971
02:57:41,360 --> 02:57:43,280
Speaker 3: Okay, sounds good already.

2972
02:57:44,319 --> 02:57:48,239
Speaker 1: Chapter nine, The therapeutic State. In theory, the role of

2973
02:57:48,280 --> 02:57:51,280
government is not for the sake of its own power,

2974
02:57:51,520 --> 02:57:53,600
but for the benefit of the people it is supposed

2975
02:57:53,600 --> 02:57:56,680
to serve. If a government does not serve the people,

2976
02:57:56,879 --> 02:58:00,159
then it must be transformed until it does it does so,

2977
02:58:00,680 --> 02:58:05,120
or be overthrown and replaced with one which does. However,

2978
02:58:05,200 --> 02:58:08,280
in Multiculturalism and the Politics of Guilt, published in two

2979
02:58:08,280 --> 02:58:12,399
thousand and two, Paul Gottfried argued that the modern managerial

2980
02:58:12,479 --> 02:58:19,879
regime had completely inverted this theoretical relationship. Rather than transforming

2981
02:58:19,879 --> 02:58:22,959
itself to serve the people, the managerial regime seeks to

2982
02:58:23,040 --> 02:58:28,440
transform people in the service of its system of atomized

2983
02:58:28,600 --> 02:58:30,280
corporate consumerism.

2984
02:58:31,000 --> 02:58:34,360
Speaker 3: I think you already see here a kind of radical

2985
02:58:34,399 --> 02:58:39,239
break between Paul and mainstream conservative commentary on this, right

2986
02:58:41,040 --> 02:58:45,079
in the sense that Paul understands that we no longer

2987
02:58:45,159 --> 02:58:49,360
live in a constitutional republic. And if you get your

2988
02:58:49,600 --> 02:58:56,280
takes from your typical conservative pundent, they're arguing that either

2989
02:58:56,600 --> 02:59:00,200
we still do but it's endangered, or that we know,

2990
02:59:00,280 --> 02:59:02,680
like Mark Levin or something like that, right, like you know,

2991
02:59:02,840 --> 02:59:05,840
this is this is against our constitution or something like that.

2992
02:59:09,280 --> 02:59:12,200
Like you already see that Paul already begins from like

2993
02:59:12,719 --> 02:59:14,879
you know, ten steps down the road, where he's saying,

2994
02:59:16,000 --> 02:59:20,079
our regime is fundamentally different from from what what it

2995
02:59:20,120 --> 02:59:24,600
was initially conceived, as it no longer actually serves anything

2996
02:59:24,719 --> 02:59:27,879
that that's like a social good, and instead it exists

2997
02:59:27,959 --> 02:59:32,319
to transform people, to to engineer a specific type of subject.

2998
02:59:32,399 --> 02:59:34,360
So you, like, just in the first you know a

2999
02:59:34,360 --> 02:59:37,719
few lines, you already see why Paul is, why why

3000
02:59:37,840 --> 02:59:41,000
his insights are so radically different again from your average

3001
02:59:41,000 --> 02:59:44,000
conservative who either thinks that we do live in a

3002
02:59:44,040 --> 02:59:47,840
constitution or republic and therefore, you know, it's not okay

3003
02:59:47,920 --> 02:59:49,680
for the FBI to or in mar A Lago, because

3004
02:59:49,680 --> 02:59:52,879
that's somehow that's a violation of constitutional rights, which is

3005
02:59:52,920 --> 02:59:56,760
in theory true but in reality irrelevant. Besides the fact, right,

3006
02:59:56,879 --> 03:00:00,159
or the people that think that you know, uh, we

3007
03:00:00,479 --> 03:00:02,920
need to vote in the next election in order to

3008
03:00:02,920 --> 03:00:06,120
save the constitutional public that's endangered, Paul is saying it's

3009
03:00:06,120 --> 03:00:06,879
dead and gone.

3010
03:00:08,520 --> 03:00:12,959
Speaker 1: Yeah, And also he's crushing anybody's hopes of oh, we

3011
03:00:13,000 --> 03:00:15,159
still have a free market things like that.

3012
03:00:15,200 --> 03:00:19,000
Speaker 3: It's just that's right, I mean, that's that's again that

3013
03:00:19,239 --> 03:00:22,920
you don't hear this from the typical conservative, the idea

3014
03:00:22,959 --> 03:00:28,559
that basically that there's something bad about capitalism, that there's

3015
03:00:28,559 --> 03:00:31,680
something bad about our culture of consumerism.

3016
03:00:32,000 --> 03:00:34,079
Speaker 2: So yep, all right.

3017
03:00:34,760 --> 03:00:38,239
Speaker 1: It drives ever more closely towards what juvenile saw as

3018
03:00:38,239 --> 03:00:42,200
the final destination. It ends in the disappearance of every

3019
03:00:42,239 --> 03:00:45,520
constraint which does not emanate from the state, and in

3020
03:00:45,559 --> 03:00:49,360
the denial of every pre eminence which is not approved

3021
03:00:49,399 --> 03:00:52,120
by the state. In a word, it ends in the

3022
03:00:52,159 --> 03:00:56,239
atomization of society, and in the rupture of every private

3023
03:00:56,360 --> 03:01:00,760
tie linking man and man, who's only bond is now

3024
03:01:00,799 --> 03:01:05,680
the common bondage to the state, the extremes of individualism

3025
03:01:05,760 --> 03:01:13,239
and socialism meet. That was their predestined course. How yeah,

3026
03:01:13,280 --> 03:01:13,840
go ahead.

3027
03:01:14,840 --> 03:01:19,559
Speaker 3: I think I actually just wrote a piece about neo conservatism,

3028
03:01:19,920 --> 03:01:24,239
and this is something this is something that I kind

3029
03:01:24,239 --> 03:01:28,200
of touch on, but from a different direction. And basically,

3030
03:01:28,280 --> 03:01:35,000
like the the new neo cons like Barrio Weiss and

3031
03:01:35,040 --> 03:01:41,239
Douglas Murray, who conceive of themselves as kind of breaking

3032
03:01:41,319 --> 03:01:45,399
with the left, they kind of see themselves as good liberals, right,

3033
03:01:45,600 --> 03:01:47,520
And in many cases that's what a lot of conservatives

3034
03:01:47,520 --> 03:01:51,920
see themselves as, that the true conservative is actually trying

3035
03:01:51,959 --> 03:01:55,639
to preserve the liberal order, the proper liberal order, right.

3036
03:01:57,600 --> 03:02:00,639
And like the average Bari Weiss reader, and like Bari

3037
03:02:00,680 --> 03:02:04,799
Weis herself, there was there was an article reasoning to

3038
03:02:04,799 --> 03:02:07,319
give you a concrete example about like the problems with Hollywood,

3039
03:02:08,040 --> 03:02:10,840
and this article it talks about how like in the past, uh,

3040
03:02:10,879 --> 03:02:13,120
there was this kind of noble crusade to root out

3041
03:02:13,120 --> 03:02:16,319
white racism in Hollywood, UH, to break what what the

3042
03:02:16,360 --> 03:02:19,520
author called the white Wall. But then Trump get selected

3043
03:02:19,559 --> 03:02:23,040
and a mass hysteria descends upon Hollywood and then everything

3044
03:02:23,079 --> 03:02:28,360
is bad, and basically there's no sense of maybe these

3045
03:02:28,360 --> 03:02:34,559
things are connected, maybe are are crusading for social justice

3046
03:02:34,760 --> 03:02:37,559
and individual individualism at the same time was a kind

3047
03:02:37,559 --> 03:02:40,360
of contradiction. And in the comments are like that too.

3048
03:02:40,479 --> 03:02:43,040
The comments are like, I was always you know, like,

3049
03:02:43,079 --> 03:02:45,200
as someone who's worked in the entertainment industry, I was

3050
03:02:45,200 --> 03:02:47,680
always opposed to racism, but you know, this stuff just

3051
03:02:47,719 --> 03:02:52,159
goes too far. And I talk about this in my

3052
03:02:52,239 --> 03:02:54,799
piece because it's something that James Burnham mentioned too, that

3053
03:02:55,120 --> 03:03:01,920
basically this tension between individual freedom, uh, the ability to

3054
03:03:02,040 --> 03:03:04,799
kind of you know, live whatever life you want, and

3055
03:03:04,879 --> 03:03:11,159
social justice are at odds because social justice requires uniformity,

3056
03:03:11,360 --> 03:03:13,920
like we have to get people to act a certain

3057
03:03:13,959 --> 03:03:20,920
way on the basis that certain behaviors are discriminatory and

3058
03:03:22,000 --> 03:03:26,040
they exclude others, right, or they stigmatize others, And so

3059
03:03:26,079 --> 03:03:27,600
that means that there's not really a whole lot of

3060
03:03:27,680 --> 03:03:31,280
room for individualism if you believe in social justice, because

3061
03:03:31,680 --> 03:03:35,040
individual thinking, individual types of behavior can be threat can

3062
03:03:35,120 --> 03:03:38,959
threaten let's call them certain sacred groups, right, whether the

3063
03:03:39,120 --> 03:03:43,680
minorities or people that are transgender, or whatever. And the

3064
03:03:43,840 --> 03:03:48,280
point that everyone from Paul to Burnham to Juvenile has

3065
03:03:48,399 --> 03:03:51,360
made is that that ultimately this kind of like what

3066
03:03:51,399 --> 03:03:54,719
we're seeing now, it's not like, oh, it's liberalism abandoned

3067
03:03:54,760 --> 03:03:56,559
in Matray it. It's like, no, this is the logical

3068
03:03:56,600 --> 03:03:59,000
conclusion of these two tensions resolving themselves.

3069
03:04:00,079 --> 03:04:00,200
Speaker 2: Uh.

3070
03:04:00,559 --> 03:04:03,840
Speaker 3: I mean, other people go back further to Rousseau, that

3071
03:04:04,479 --> 03:04:06,399
we're living what we're living in right now as a

3072
03:04:06,479 --> 03:04:10,479
kind of Rousseau and totalitarianism, or where any kind of

3073
03:04:10,559 --> 03:04:14,440
dissonance is unacceptable and it has to be crushed. So

3074
03:04:15,239 --> 03:04:18,719
in the words liberalism and leftism, it's not like they're different,

3075
03:04:18,799 --> 03:04:21,200
like you know, Dennis Praeger would would would argue or

3076
03:04:21,200 --> 03:04:23,719
something like that, like, no, these things are actually related.

3077
03:04:25,040 --> 03:04:28,639
Speaker 1: You very much see this in the BARRYE. Wise, Douglas Murray,

3078
03:04:28,719 --> 03:04:32,079
the id W types. Yeah, I just see them as

3079
03:04:32,200 --> 03:04:39,360
infiltrators to keep basically conserve liberalism, conserve progressivism.

3080
03:04:39,799 --> 03:04:40,000
Speaker 3: Yeah.

3081
03:04:41,479 --> 03:04:41,639
Speaker 2: Right.

3082
03:04:42,639 --> 03:04:46,760
Speaker 1: However, Gottfried identifies the root of this not in managerialism

3083
03:04:46,840 --> 03:04:49,479
per se, which is simply the vehicle through which it

3084
03:04:49,600 --> 03:04:55,079
and its ends are achieved, but in two proximate causes multiculturalism,

3085
03:04:55,239 --> 03:04:58,680
which is to say, the prevalence of minority groups whose

3086
03:04:58,719 --> 03:05:04,559
political efforts go towards neutralizing the culture and institutional particularities

3087
03:05:04,840 --> 03:05:08,840
associated with a majority out group, and a religious and

3088
03:05:08,879 --> 03:05:13,920
cultural phenomenon owing itself chiefly to a progressive perversion of

3089
03:05:14,040 --> 03:05:18,200
mainline Protestant churches that manifests itself as white guilt.

3090
03:05:19,000 --> 03:05:24,399
Speaker 3: David French concrete example of this. This is actually what

3091
03:05:24,479 --> 03:05:28,559
got San Francis in trouble in the nineties. He wrote

3092
03:05:28,559 --> 03:05:32,000
a column in the Washington Times, and he was he

3093
03:05:32,079 --> 03:05:37,879
was basically mocking this Southern Baptist church for for apologizing

3094
03:05:37,879 --> 03:05:43,879
for slavery. Basically, this this idea that that Christians today,

3095
03:05:44,200 --> 03:05:47,040
you know, in the nineties, have any kind of responsibility

3096
03:05:47,239 --> 03:05:50,440
for something like slavery, right, and and also the idea

3097
03:05:50,600 --> 03:05:56,000
of of kind of like permanent group guilt. It seems

3098
03:05:56,040 --> 03:06:02,000
to completely contradict the idea of of for you know, forgiveness,

3099
03:06:02,200 --> 03:06:04,799
of forgiveness in this Christian sense that we can be

3100
03:06:04,799 --> 03:06:08,040
absolved of our sins. Instead, what we're saying is is

3101
03:06:08,079 --> 03:06:11,719
that actually entire races of people have this kind of

3102
03:06:11,840 --> 03:06:18,280
permanent original sin that that will not only taint them,

3103
03:06:18,319 --> 03:06:22,159
but also like every subsequent generation of white people carries

3104
03:06:22,200 --> 03:06:27,200
this sin, and San Francis just argued like, this is absurd.

3105
03:06:27,399 --> 03:06:30,319
It also seems to violate like Christian ethics and history,

3106
03:06:31,639 --> 03:06:35,479
and that column actually got him in trouble. He was right,

3107
03:06:35,520 --> 03:06:38,200
of course, like everything he said in that column is correct,

3108
03:06:39,040 --> 03:06:41,000
but it was just seen as of course it was.

3109
03:06:41,040 --> 03:06:44,760
It was construed as a an apology for slavery, which

3110
03:06:44,760 --> 03:06:49,000
is which obviously that's not what it was. But the

3111
03:06:49,000 --> 03:06:51,479
the funny thing is is that that was considered a

3112
03:06:51,520 --> 03:06:53,840
hot take at the time, so hot that you know,

3113
03:06:53,879 --> 03:06:56,200
like I said, it got him in trouble and it

3114
03:06:56,239 --> 03:06:58,760
contributed to his firing from the Washington Times. But today

3115
03:07:00,079 --> 03:07:03,399
we there's like a unanimous agreement on the right, even

3116
03:07:03,440 --> 03:07:07,120
like the mainstream right, that yeah, this actually seems to

3117
03:07:07,120 --> 03:07:12,239
be a kind of bizarre Christian deformation, the politics of

3118
03:07:12,280 --> 03:07:15,000
white guilt, like that is a totally mainstream view now.

3119
03:07:15,040 --> 03:07:20,239
Whereas it got a prominent intellectual who was talking about

3120
03:07:20,239 --> 03:07:21,959
this in the nineties, it got him in trouble and

3121
03:07:22,000 --> 03:07:23,719
ultimately contributed to him getting fired.

3122
03:07:23,959 --> 03:07:30,479
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, Denesh to Susan, sure, this results in

3123
03:07:30,520 --> 03:07:33,239
an atmosphere to which white people must submit in self

3124
03:07:33,280 --> 03:07:37,959
abasement and atonement. For past sentence. It necessitates the grafting

3125
03:07:38,040 --> 03:07:43,040
onto administrative states of therapeutic and punitive agencies for forming

3126
03:07:43,120 --> 03:07:48,959
social consciousness and chastising those with defective sensibility. That is

3127
03:07:49,000 --> 03:07:52,959
a quote and a half right there by. Now, political

3128
03:07:52,959 --> 03:07:56,360
correctness and its causes are well worn themes. It has

3129
03:07:56,399 --> 03:07:59,040
also become a common It has also become a common

3130
03:07:59,239 --> 03:08:03,159
It has also become commonplace to identify modern social justice

3131
03:08:03,200 --> 03:08:06,040
and its dominant theme of white guilt as a kind

3132
03:08:06,079 --> 03:08:10,239
of religion. Godfrey dearrived at such conclusions at least twenty

3133
03:08:10,319 --> 03:08:14,200
years before most commentators, as did Sam Francis, whose work

3134
03:08:14,200 --> 03:08:18,040
we have already explored. The specific causes are incidental to

3135
03:08:18,079 --> 03:08:22,159
our purposes here, but it is worth listing them. Godfried

3136
03:08:22,239 --> 03:08:25,559
sees the issue as predominantly American, arising from the so

3137
03:08:25,680 --> 03:08:28,799
called melting Pot and then exported to the rest of

3138
03:08:28,840 --> 03:08:33,479
the anglosphere from the mid nineteen sixty sixties onward onwards,

3139
03:08:33,760 --> 03:08:38,360
who came to imitate the crusade against discrimination then being

3140
03:08:38,440 --> 03:08:44,479
waged across the Atlantic. In the American milieu milieu, the

3141
03:08:44,559 --> 03:08:49,920
key groups are the so called wasps, white Saxon Protestants,

3142
03:08:50,120 --> 03:08:53,440
who have allowed their mainline churches to stray very far

3143
03:08:53,479 --> 03:08:57,360
from biblical teachings to general sermonizing about the dangers of

3144
03:08:57,399 --> 03:09:01,239
bigotry and an alliance of minority grew which include Jews,

3145
03:09:01,760 --> 03:09:06,840
Irish and Italian Catholics and blacks. Gottfried locates at the

3146
03:09:06,840 --> 03:09:10,760
heart of the issue the feminization of Christianity, the fusion

3147
03:09:10,799 --> 03:09:14,479
of a victim centered feminism with the Protestant framework of

3148
03:09:14,559 --> 03:09:18,239
sin and redemption. It is not difficult to see a

3149
03:09:18,280 --> 03:09:22,239
perverted form of the Calvinist doctrine of absolute depravity in

3150
03:09:22,319 --> 03:09:24,879
contemporary social justice rhetoric.

3151
03:09:25,600 --> 03:09:34,280
Speaker 3: I think that that that thesis that basically radical social justice,

3152
03:09:34,280 --> 03:09:37,280
whatever you want to call it, that it was not

3153
03:09:37,319 --> 03:09:40,360
a European import to the United States. That this is

3154
03:09:40,399 --> 03:09:43,600
actually something that we, by we, I mean the United

3155
03:09:43,600 --> 03:09:47,239
States kind of conceived and then ultimately exported. That also

3156
03:09:47,399 --> 03:09:51,799
is is that's a controversial opinion, right, Like a lot

3157
03:09:51,799 --> 03:09:58,680
of a lot of conservative punditry revolves around this idea

3158
03:09:58,719 --> 03:10:02,239
that basically everything was fine, but then some you know,

3159
03:10:02,440 --> 03:10:06,879
like some German idealism or whatever or Marxism got imported, uh,

3160
03:10:06,959 --> 03:10:10,639
and that ultimately brought us to where we are now,

3161
03:10:10,920 --> 03:10:14,040
that that basically it was the import of foreign ideas.

3162
03:10:14,639 --> 03:10:19,280
But Paul seems to believe that actually there this tendency

3163
03:10:19,399 --> 03:10:22,159
was already present in the United States, that there or

3164
03:10:22,239 --> 03:10:26,799
there's something here that made the ideas particularly virulent and destructive.

3165
03:10:28,639 --> 03:10:34,600
And I mean this goes against like even even institutions

3166
03:10:34,600 --> 03:10:37,520
like like the Claremont Institute, right they they take the

3167
03:10:37,639 --> 03:10:41,280
view that that actually, our problems are mostly imported from German,

3168
03:10:41,399 --> 03:10:45,639
from German thinking and German German uh views of of

3169
03:10:45,680 --> 03:10:49,639
like the social sciences and stuff like that. Paul is saying, no,

3170
03:10:50,000 --> 03:10:54,079
like this is actually a homegrown problem. And it's funny

3171
03:10:54,079 --> 03:10:58,159
because you recently had the French government talk about this,

3172
03:10:58,639 --> 03:11:04,120
that that basically the like woke ideology is coming from

3173
03:11:04,159 --> 03:11:07,719
the United States to France and that they view it

3174
03:11:07,760 --> 03:11:10,120
as a kind of threat to the stability of the

3175
03:11:10,159 --> 03:11:17,319
French regime because essentially it threatens to delegitimize the French government,

3176
03:11:17,319 --> 03:11:20,680
the French state by doing what it's doing in the

3177
03:11:20,760 --> 03:11:24,639
United States, which is saying that the entire you know,

3178
03:11:24,840 --> 03:11:28,760
French society is built on racism, on the exploitation of

3179
03:11:30,360 --> 03:11:35,440
minority groups and stuff like that, where for the United

3180
03:11:35,479 --> 03:11:38,600
States it's more about slavery. In France, it's more about colonialism.

3181
03:11:38,920 --> 03:11:42,040
But the French government has said like this is on

3182
03:11:42,079 --> 03:11:45,959
the one hand a threat, an existential threat to French society,

3183
03:11:46,399 --> 03:11:50,479
and on the other hand, an American import. I think

3184
03:11:50,559 --> 03:11:54,879
that point doesn't get enough attention because it's worth chewing on, right,

3185
03:11:55,000 --> 03:11:57,840
Like why is that? Like what is this? My mind

3186
03:11:57,879 --> 03:12:01,000
goes to. I think his name was William Lloyd Garrison,

3187
03:12:01,559 --> 03:12:06,840
the abolitionists who burned the Constitution, and kind of I

3188
03:12:06,840 --> 03:12:08,440
think you referred to it as like a deal with

3189
03:12:08,440 --> 03:12:10,520
a devil or something like that. And I think that

3190
03:12:10,600 --> 03:12:14,559
you always had this kind of radical tendency that was

3191
03:12:15,639 --> 03:12:18,319
it seemed like it was there's always this kind of

3192
03:12:18,479 --> 03:12:23,399
millenarian tendency in the United States. Not in the average American,

3193
03:12:23,479 --> 03:12:26,680
but there is always this kind of faction in the

3194
03:12:26,799 --> 03:12:30,719
US that had this kind of millenarian radical social justice

3195
03:12:31,840 --> 03:12:35,760
can't And I think Paul's really the only person that's

3196
03:12:35,760 --> 03:12:36,879
I think, tried to explore this.

3197
03:12:37,120 --> 03:12:41,559
Speaker 1: So all right, gone back to reading the author in

3198
03:12:41,600 --> 03:12:44,559
the first the author's writing in the first person. Here,

3199
03:12:45,159 --> 03:12:48,360
I recall being at an international conference in twenty seventeen

3200
03:12:48,479 --> 03:12:53,159
which a world famous feminist renaissance scholar at Columbia undoubtedly

3201
03:12:53,200 --> 03:12:56,799
a wasp, spoke for almost half an hour in unmistakably

3202
03:12:56,879 --> 03:13:01,159
religious terms about her shame at being white. In truth,

3203
03:13:01,200 --> 03:13:03,520
I could not bear witness to this act of public

3204
03:13:03,559 --> 03:13:07,559
penance and left the conference hall after ten minutes. Gottfried

3205
03:13:07,639 --> 03:13:10,840
does not solely lay blame on Protestantism gone awry. He

3206
03:13:10,959 --> 03:13:15,360
also points to the political games played by minority groups. Gottfried,

3207
03:13:15,399 --> 03:13:19,079
who is Jewish, notes the double standard, for example, of

3208
03:13:19,239 --> 03:13:23,479
Jews who combined strong nationalist feelings for their own group

3209
03:13:23,559 --> 03:13:28,280
and for Israel with the advocacy of open borders, alternative lifestyles,

3210
03:13:28,559 --> 03:13:33,760
and extreme pluralism for their host countries. That's quoting Gottfried

3211
03:13:33,799 --> 03:13:38,280
right there. Elsewhere. Around the time he was writing Multiculturalism

3212
03:13:38,719 --> 03:13:42,200
and the Politics of Guilt, he noted the weaponization of

3213
03:13:42,280 --> 03:13:47,360
social justice rhetoric by Jewish groups against the chief against

3214
03:13:47,360 --> 03:13:52,680
their chief political rivals, the white Christian Right. Quoting Gottfried,

3215
03:13:53,920 --> 03:13:57,440
but seeking out block alliances with blacks and other marginalized

3216
03:13:57,479 --> 03:14:00,879
groups is thought to help American Jews in another more

3217
03:14:00,920 --> 03:14:04,920
significant way. Like gays and feminists, blacks are valuable for

3218
03:14:04,959 --> 03:14:08,440
those who perceive the white Christian right as their major

3219
03:14:08,600 --> 03:14:12,040
enemy and as the prime source of American anti Semitism.

3220
03:14:12,440 --> 03:14:15,159
I would urge Professor Foreman to look at the Anti

3221
03:14:15,200 --> 03:14:19,440
Defamation League's nineteen ninety four publication The Religious Right, The

3222
03:14:19,479 --> 03:14:23,319
Assault on Tolerance and Pluralism in America as an illustration

3223
03:14:23,440 --> 03:14:27,719
of how leading American Jewish organizations perceive their self interest.

3224
03:14:28,319 --> 03:14:31,680
It is by declaring solidarity with blacks and others thought

3225
03:14:31,719 --> 03:14:34,840
to be on the left against the predominantly Southern based

3226
03:14:34,879 --> 03:14:42,559
religious right, racist theocracy, holocaust denier, and anti abortion are

3227
03:14:42,600 --> 03:14:47,239
becoming interchangeable terms in American Jewish tirades against the Christian Right.

3228
03:14:47,879 --> 03:14:51,719
Remaining firmly tied to blacks is therefore seen as necessary

3229
03:14:51,760 --> 03:14:55,159
to preserve Jews against the real enemy, the one they

3230
03:14:55,200 --> 03:14:58,319
fear and detest most, whether or not it poses a

3231
03:14:58,319 --> 03:15:01,479
real threat to their individual or communal existence.

3232
03:15:02,760 --> 03:15:04,879
Speaker 3: Paul has said elsewhere. I think that he thinks of

3233
03:15:04,920 --> 03:15:12,000
this this strategy backfires, that it actually increases I mean,

3234
03:15:12,040 --> 03:15:16,959
we're so past like Balkanization, but basically that's exactly what

3235
03:15:16,959 --> 03:15:23,520
it does. It actually increases conflict between groups in the

3236
03:15:23,600 --> 03:15:27,280
United States more than it resolves anything. I mean, But

3237
03:15:27,360 --> 03:15:29,280
I mean, I think Paul's like one of the few

3238
03:15:29,319 --> 03:15:33,799
people that has written about this subject and is willing

3239
03:15:33,799 --> 03:15:37,000
to kind of, you know, make these points. But anyways, yeah,

3240
03:15:37,000 --> 03:15:39,159
I mean, this is this is like probably Paul's one

3241
03:15:39,159 --> 03:15:41,639
of the most controversial things that he writes about as

3242
03:15:41,719 --> 03:15:45,639
only probably he code or would be willing to. I mean, yeah,

3243
03:15:45,639 --> 03:15:48,600
it's it's this is it's it's a difficult subject.

3244
03:15:48,840 --> 03:15:52,159
Speaker 1: So he still gets called the Nancy Semite anyway.

3245
03:15:51,920 --> 03:15:55,639
Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah, I think he had family that was

3246
03:15:55,719 --> 03:15:57,639
killed by the Nazis too, I think, but it's just

3247
03:15:57,840 --> 03:16:01,079
uh yeah, I mean he was to his credit, he's

3248
03:16:01,079 --> 03:16:02,399
even willing to discuss these things.

3249
03:16:02,440 --> 03:16:07,000
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's part of the therapeutic state when you're

3250
03:16:07,040 --> 03:16:12,920
getting accused of things that are absurd. However, Gottfreed notes.

3251
03:16:13,239 --> 03:16:16,920
Gottfried notes that other minority groups have played these political

3252
03:16:16,959 --> 03:16:20,559
games too, including Irish and Italian Catholics. Of course, good

3253
03:16:20,600 --> 03:16:22,719
students of elite theory would not be surprised in the

3254
03:16:22,760 --> 03:16:27,319
slightest that in a multicultural liberal democracy, tightly organized special

3255
03:16:27,319 --> 03:16:31,799
interest groups should come to dominate the disorganized majority. This

3256
03:16:31,920 --> 03:16:37,360
is Moscow's law. What troubles Gottfried most is the manufacturing

3257
03:16:37,360 --> 03:16:41,399
of consent that we have seen discussed, that we have

3258
03:16:41,479 --> 03:16:46,120
already discussed has been pathologized and even medicalized. This is

3259
03:16:46,159 --> 03:16:51,159
where I'm gonna say, just stop and say that when

3260
03:16:52,559 --> 03:16:56,440
some of us say, especially Orrin McIntyre's really be you know,

3261
03:16:56,719 --> 03:16:58,760
says this a lot and has almost become famous for

3262
03:16:58,799 --> 03:17:02,680
saying that these people just not going to leave us alone.

3263
03:17:03,360 --> 03:17:06,000
The people who want to be left alone are always

3264
03:17:06,040 --> 03:17:08,639
going to be defeated by the people who aren't going

3265
03:17:08,719 --> 03:17:11,360
to leave us alone. Have no intention of leaving us alone.

3266
03:17:11,479 --> 03:17:14,479
So I think that this section right here, this is

3267
03:17:14,520 --> 03:17:18,520
starting to talk about that where anyone who thinks that

3268
03:17:19,600 --> 03:17:26,239
this leftist ideology is they're somehow going to overcome it politically. No,

3269
03:17:26,520 --> 03:17:29,360
that's why these people don't care about politics. That's why

3270
03:17:29,360 --> 03:17:32,879
these people will raid the compounds of former presidents. That's

3271
03:17:32,920 --> 03:17:38,600
why these people will push the mutilation of children.

3272
03:17:39,000 --> 03:17:43,120
Speaker 3: Yeah. I think this is actually the most interesting part

3273
03:17:43,280 --> 03:17:48,360
of the chapter, the basically the clinicalization of disagreement.

3274
03:17:48,959 --> 03:17:49,200
Speaker 2: Yeah.

3275
03:17:50,200 --> 03:17:53,879
Speaker 1: He suggests that since the nineteen sixties, the behavior modification

3276
03:17:54,079 --> 03:17:59,120
and social engineering programs or the managerial state, have relentlessly

3277
03:17:59,239 --> 03:18:04,120
fought against discrimination in promoted diversity, using the looming image

3278
03:18:04,159 --> 03:18:06,600
of the Nazis or the ghosts of slavery and the

3279
03:18:06,600 --> 03:18:11,040
segregationist South as cudgels in a permanent slippery slope argument.

3280
03:18:12,600 --> 03:18:17,639
He identifies three tactics that are routinely employed. First, the

3281
03:18:17,680 --> 03:18:20,879
tendency of media and other opinion makers to stress that

3282
03:18:21,319 --> 03:18:25,920
consensus has already been reached, for example, over immigration or

3283
03:18:26,000 --> 03:18:31,399
multicultural programs. In the UK, the BBC would routinely engage

3284
03:18:31,440 --> 03:18:34,239
in this form of gaslighting on its flagship debate show

3285
03:18:34,360 --> 03:18:38,360
question Time. They would routinely present a panel with four

3286
03:18:38,440 --> 03:18:43,159
pro immigration voices against a lone anti immigration voice. The

3287
03:18:43,200 --> 03:18:46,360
studio crowd would cheer the pro immigration voices and boo

3288
03:18:46,399 --> 03:18:50,000
the anti immigration voice. This serves to isolate the viewer

3289
03:18:50,040 --> 03:18:52,760
at home watching the show who may be against immigration,

3290
03:18:53,239 --> 03:18:55,920
by creating the perception that their stance is held by

3291
03:18:55,959 --> 03:19:00,239
a despised minority. In fact, from nineteen sixty four to

3292
03:19:00,280 --> 03:19:03,600
twenty seventeen, over sixty five percent of the British public

3293
03:19:03,959 --> 03:19:08,680
opposed immigration, according to the British Election Study. The media

3294
03:19:08,840 --> 03:19:12,840
nakedly employs a persuasion tool known as social proof in

3295
03:19:12,879 --> 03:19:16,319
a bid to make the public more accepting of mass immigration.

3296
03:19:18,719 --> 03:19:21,719
I mean you've wrote on You've wrote on this on immigration.

3297
03:19:21,879 --> 03:19:26,760
Speaker 3: I mean yeah, I think the point about social proof

3298
03:19:27,200 --> 03:19:30,000
reminds me of something else that I've written about, which

3299
03:19:30,040 --> 03:19:36,000
is called, well, it's this idea of like socially constructed phenomenon.

3300
03:19:36,079 --> 03:19:41,360
It's like mass shootings. Right, there's this idea that is

3301
03:19:42,879 --> 03:19:45,239
constructed by the media that basically, like the there are

3302
03:19:47,000 --> 03:19:49,360
that all mass shooters are white, right, that they're all

3303
03:19:49,399 --> 03:19:55,239
this this implicitly right wing white person. But obviously that's

3304
03:19:55,239 --> 03:19:58,319
not true. Like the high profile things that we see

3305
03:19:58,319 --> 03:20:00,639
on TV, like you know, they happen to these uh,

3306
03:20:00,840 --> 03:20:04,239
these like white schizophrenics or whatever, but they make up

3307
03:20:04,280 --> 03:20:08,600
a minority of the total population that is responsible for

3308
03:20:08,600 --> 03:20:13,639
mass shootings. And uh. The study that I was citing

3309
03:20:13,680 --> 03:20:17,840
to make this case actually argues that on the one hand,

3310
03:20:17,879 --> 03:20:22,360
you have this this thing, uh, these socially constructed perceptions

3311
03:20:22,399 --> 03:20:27,399
of of uh, social problems, and on the other hand,

3312
03:20:27,520 --> 03:20:31,000
it actually results in a kind of like misdirection of

3313
03:20:31,079 --> 03:20:38,040
resources that because we're because our attention is focused on

3314
03:20:38,680 --> 03:20:40,959
you know, what seems to be this this boogeyman of

3315
03:20:41,000 --> 03:20:46,840
like you know, the white mass shooter, our attention and

3316
03:20:47,079 --> 03:20:51,399
efforts are directed towards essentially like you know, increasing our

3317
03:20:51,639 --> 03:20:56,440
our like anti discrimination regime, like the social engineering to

3318
03:20:56,600 --> 03:21:01,440
stamp out like supposed you know, white femism, white rage,

3319
03:21:01,559 --> 03:21:05,719
as general Mark Milly calls it, right, But it's a

3320
03:21:05,760 --> 03:21:08,799
complete waste in the sense it doesn't it doesn't actually

3321
03:21:08,840 --> 03:21:14,479
solve anything. It basically creates a problem that doesn't really exist,

3322
03:21:15,040 --> 03:21:18,959
and then pours resources and energy into addressing that. Then

3323
03:21:19,239 --> 03:21:23,079
ultimately all it really does is kind of expand the

3324
03:21:23,120 --> 03:21:27,920
size and scope of the manager regime. You have a

3325
03:21:28,040 --> 03:21:31,760
more invasive state that needs to root out, you know,

3326
03:21:31,799 --> 03:21:36,639
the causes that supposedly contribute to this problem of the

3327
03:21:36,639 --> 03:21:40,959
white mass shooter, right, and they're there. I mean, you

3328
03:21:41,280 --> 03:21:43,600
could argue, like I actually believe in this that there's

3329
03:21:43,680 --> 03:21:48,719
actually something that's driving people insane about modernity and making

3330
03:21:48,719 --> 03:21:55,319
them commit these kinds of shootings. But it's not like

3331
03:21:55,760 --> 03:21:57,799
white racial resentment or something like that, like I think

3332
03:21:57,840 --> 03:22:00,760
it's I think it's actually much worse than that. It's

3333
03:22:00,799 --> 03:22:04,280
something about the way that the way that we live

3334
03:22:04,959 --> 03:22:11,440
period today makes people I think nihilistic. But that's much

3335
03:22:11,440 --> 03:22:15,120
harder to solve than you know, the supposed boogeyman of

3336
03:22:15,479 --> 03:22:18,000
like of white extremism. That's that's much more serious. You're

3337
03:22:18,040 --> 03:22:20,799
talking about something that is like baked into the cake

3338
03:22:21,000 --> 03:22:24,399
of the modern West, and you can't really, you can't

3339
03:22:24,399 --> 03:22:26,280
really solve that, Like there's no think tank that can

3340
03:22:26,319 --> 03:22:32,280
address that problem. Right, But these socially constructed narratives like

3341
03:22:32,520 --> 03:22:34,559
this social proof, I think, is an example of that

3342
03:22:35,600 --> 03:22:38,639
completely divert our attention and resources to things that are

3343
03:22:38,959 --> 03:22:42,079
that ultimately serve no one except for the managers. If

3344
03:22:42,079 --> 03:22:42,680
that makes sense.

3345
03:22:43,360 --> 03:22:46,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, I thought you were going to start talking about

3346
03:22:46,280 --> 03:22:48,680
industrial society in its future, right there? For a second,

3347
03:22:51,040 --> 03:22:54,200
All right, let's move on. The second tact that Gottfried

3348
03:22:54,399 --> 03:22:59,159
identifies is employing the past as a club. By harping

3349
03:22:59,200 --> 03:23:01,319
on the real or a man evils of the past,

3350
03:23:01,680 --> 03:23:06,120
Proponents of state controlled socialization appeal to the guilty conscience

3351
03:23:06,159 --> 03:23:11,200
of their listeners and furnish occasions for exhibitions of public righteousness.

3352
03:23:11,840 --> 03:23:15,639
Such exhibitions have become by now so routine and widespread

3353
03:23:15,639 --> 03:23:20,079
that they have gained the label virtue signaling. Who hasn't

3354
03:23:20,120 --> 03:23:24,200
seen somebody post on social media that they're opposed to

3355
03:23:24,239 --> 03:23:28,799
slavery in twenty twenty two?

3356
03:23:29,040 --> 03:23:32,360
Speaker 3: Thank you for just yeah, it's just thank you for

3357
03:23:33,040 --> 03:23:34,959
letting us know that you're against slavery. That's great.

3358
03:23:35,440 --> 03:23:40,200
Speaker 1: It's very brave, very and stunning. However, the third and

3359
03:23:40,280 --> 03:23:43,959
most insidious method is to treat the unwanted behavior as

3360
03:23:44,000 --> 03:23:48,719
a form of sickness, to depict unfashionable thinkers and retrograde

3361
03:23:48,799 --> 03:23:53,920
views as pathological. Gottfried is rightly perturbed that the implications

3362
03:23:53,920 --> 03:23:57,520
of treating dissent as a form of mental illness, which

3363
03:23:57,559 --> 03:24:03,680
requires psychiatric remedy. That pathologizing tendency has its overt postwar

3364
03:24:03,760 --> 03:24:06,799
roots in the work of the Frankfurt School, and specifically

3365
03:24:07,239 --> 03:24:14,520
Theodore W. W. Adrano's The Authoritarian Personality Type. Gottfried gives

3366
03:24:14,559 --> 03:24:17,360
a full treatment to this text in his early book

3367
03:24:17,920 --> 03:24:21,840
After Liberalism, to which multiculturalism in the Politics of Guilt

3368
03:24:21,920 --> 03:24:25,799
was a sequel Elsewhere he is it pains to point

3369
03:24:25,840 --> 03:24:29,559
out that, contrary to certain right wing conspiracy theories, which

3370
03:24:29,600 --> 03:24:33,639
suggests the injection of Frankfurt School thinking into Western institutions

3371
03:24:34,000 --> 03:24:38,680
as a Marxist plot hatched from Moscow, that Adorno was

3372
03:24:38,719 --> 03:24:44,360
sponsored by an emphatically liberal but also anti Soviet sponsor,

3373
03:24:44,639 --> 03:24:48,360
the American Jewish Committee. In other words, this is not

3374
03:24:48,520 --> 03:24:54,520
subversion by liberalism by communist agitators. This is the logic

3375
03:24:55,239 --> 03:24:58,600
of managerial liberalism. Played out to its natural limits.

3376
03:25:00,520 --> 03:25:01,559
Speaker 2: Got anything to say about that?

3377
03:25:02,600 --> 03:25:05,040
Speaker 3: No, I think that's I think again, it gets at

3378
03:25:05,079 --> 03:25:11,719
this this idea that that these are imported ideas, right.

3379
03:25:12,000 --> 03:25:15,239
Uh that No, actually this this actually seems to be

3380
03:25:15,319 --> 03:25:20,440
something that is home grown. Uh. And I mean managerialism.

3381
03:25:20,799 --> 03:25:25,000
Managerial liberalism is a good term to sum this stuff up.

3382
03:25:26,639 --> 03:25:28,559
But I think that the next part is what I

3383
03:25:28,559 --> 03:25:30,239
was like, I said, this is this is the part

3384
03:25:30,239 --> 03:25:32,559
that I think is really really fascinating and I wanted

3385
03:25:32,559 --> 03:25:33,120
to talk about.

3386
03:25:33,200 --> 03:25:38,360
Speaker 1: So let's do it. And after liberalism. Drawing on Thomas

3387
03:25:38,680 --> 03:25:43,200
Thomas Oz, right, I think so okay and Christopher lash

3388
03:25:43,360 --> 03:25:46,600
he charts how the fields of psychiatry and psychology gave

3389
03:25:46,719 --> 03:25:51,040
rise to a new expert class whose role was to regulate, alter,

3390
03:25:51,280 --> 03:25:55,920
and normalize behavior to conform to their requirements of managerialism.

3391
03:25:56,760 --> 03:26:00,799
Quoting the invasion of government and the courts by behavioral

3392
03:26:00,840 --> 03:26:05,040
scientists has produced what Thomas ZoZ calls the therapeutic state.

3393
03:26:05,799 --> 03:26:10,520
Psychiatrists and social psychologists have been given social status, according

3394
03:26:10,520 --> 03:26:14,040
to ZoZ, and their moral and political judgments, though not

3395
03:26:14,079 --> 03:26:18,120
always founded on hard empirical science, are taken to be expert.

3396
03:26:19,000 --> 03:26:23,280
These experts today can affect decisions about the responsibility of criminals,

3397
03:26:23,600 --> 03:26:26,920
the right to control property, and the custody of children.

3398
03:26:28,280 --> 03:26:32,959
Psychiatric theologians have been able to impose their private political

3399
03:26:32,959 --> 03:26:37,239
opinions as scientific truth, and ZoZ cites the fact that

3400
03:26:37,280 --> 03:26:42,879
the American Psychiatric Association now defines the involuntaryment, treatment, and

3401
03:26:42,920 --> 03:26:50,200
incarceration of mental patients as health rights. ZoZ also observes

3402
03:26:50,440 --> 03:26:54,239
if people believe the health values justify coercion, but that

3403
03:26:54,399 --> 03:26:57,959
moral and political do not, those who wish to coerce

3404
03:26:58,040 --> 03:27:01,360
others will tend to enlarge to caateggory of health values

3405
03:27:01,680 --> 03:27:06,040
at the expense of moral values. Health values have also

3406
03:27:06,120 --> 03:27:10,959
become socialized through a global managerial culture since nineteen seventy

3407
03:27:11,040 --> 03:27:15,559
sixty and added Nations through its imperial through its International

3408
03:27:15,600 --> 03:27:19,280
Covenant on Economic, Cultural, and Social Rights, has elevated the

3409
03:27:19,440 --> 03:27:22,600
enjoyment of the highest standard of mental health to a

3410
03:27:22,680 --> 03:27:28,440
sacred entitlement. Henceforth, henceforth, governments must ensure a sound state

3411
03:27:28,479 --> 03:27:30,479
of mind as a human right.

3412
03:27:32,239 --> 03:27:38,760
Speaker 6: I think this whole thing is so important, and I

3413
03:27:38,799 --> 03:27:43,639
think the most obvious example of this idea of psychiatric

3414
03:27:43,680 --> 03:27:46,959
theologians is today is transgenderism.

3415
03:27:47,719 --> 03:27:53,239
Speaker 3: And I don't think we really appreciate this point enough.

3416
03:27:54,120 --> 03:27:57,959
There was a case recently in Arkansas where a judge

3417
03:27:58,760 --> 03:28:02,920
ruled that Arkansas cannot enforce a ban on gender transition

3418
03:28:03,000 --> 03:28:08,840
therapy for for kids, and obviously that the justification for

3419
03:28:08,920 --> 03:28:12,079
that is that basically these medical interventions, so the so

3420
03:28:12,200 --> 03:28:17,559
called medical interventions, are life saving. And we're going to

3421
03:28:17,600 --> 03:28:20,239
get into Fuco here in a sec and I actually

3422
03:28:20,280 --> 03:28:22,879
think you're better off reading like Fuco at this point

3423
03:28:22,879 --> 03:28:25,559
than John Locke in order to understand, like the modern

3424
03:28:25,600 --> 03:28:32,079
manager regime that that basically, uh, these claims that like

3425
03:28:32,159 --> 03:28:35,760
gender transition therapy are are life saving and therefore necessary,

3426
03:28:35,840 --> 03:28:38,200
and you can't stop you can't. You can't even like

3427
03:28:38,360 --> 03:28:40,799
through the through the legislative process. It's it's it's not

3428
03:28:40,879 --> 03:28:43,399
okay to prevent kids from getting access to this stuff.

3429
03:28:43,760 --> 03:28:48,479
It's delivered in the like the neutral language of science,

3430
03:28:48,920 --> 03:28:51,920
which gives this facade of exactly that this is just

3431
03:28:51,959 --> 03:28:58,440
objective truth. This is what the what the the the

3432
03:28:58,520 --> 03:29:03,639
academic institutions of medicine have decided is simply true. It's

3433
03:29:03,680 --> 03:29:07,040
not political at all, but obviously it is. Every institution

3434
03:29:07,159 --> 03:29:11,000
is political. It's absurd to think anything else, but that

3435
03:29:11,159 --> 03:29:13,479
is precisely why this stuff is so pernicious. That you

3436
03:29:13,559 --> 03:29:17,079
have courts and social workers and all these people that

3437
03:29:17,159 --> 03:29:21,000
have the power to deprive you of your children, of

3438
03:29:21,079 --> 03:29:26,319
your property, or even your freedom, who are grounding their

3439
03:29:26,879 --> 03:29:33,479
arguments in what are supposedly kind of objective ethical concepts

3440
03:29:34,360 --> 03:29:37,040
like best practices for care and things like that. It's

3441
03:29:37,120 --> 03:29:40,520
extremely pernicious. And again, Paul's one of the few people

3442
03:29:40,559 --> 03:29:43,200
that talks about this.

3443
03:29:45,079 --> 03:29:48,639
Speaker 1: It's so dangerous and it's so scary. I mean, these

3444
03:29:48,680 --> 03:29:52,719
people they can pick you up and there's nothing you

3445
03:29:52,760 --> 03:29:55,239
can do. They can do anything to you that they

3446
03:29:55,239 --> 03:30:00,319
want to force medicate. Yeah, there was a time I

3447
03:30:00,360 --> 03:30:02,479
was reading about somebody, somebody I've talked about in this

3448
03:30:02,520 --> 03:30:06,159
podcast before, who actually committed suicide because he was in

3449
03:30:06,200 --> 03:30:08,280
fear that they were going to lobotomize him.

3450
03:30:08,719 --> 03:30:12,760
Speaker 3: Oh wow, yeah, yeah, So all right.

3451
03:30:14,440 --> 03:30:15,239
Speaker 2: It is interesting.

3452
03:30:15,280 --> 03:30:18,319
Speaker 1: It is interesting that this analysis of relationship between the

3453
03:30:18,319 --> 03:30:21,239
field of mental health and power has a parallel on

3454
03:30:21,319 --> 03:30:25,319
the left in the work of Michelle Fuko. Fuko pointed

3455
03:30:25,360 --> 03:30:29,000
out how the medical or clinical gaze obscures the functioning

3456
03:30:29,040 --> 03:30:33,920
of power because of the morally neutral language of science. However,

3457
03:30:34,000 --> 03:30:37,680
as much as Fuku is added to university reading lists

3458
03:30:38,079 --> 03:30:42,120
and read by undergraduates. It seems that no one at universities,

3459
03:30:42,200 --> 03:30:44,520
least of all those on the left, ever stops to

3460
03:30:44,600 --> 03:30:48,360
question the relationship between power and pulp and public and

3461
03:30:48,440 --> 03:30:52,239
mental health in the current paradigm. One might suggest that

3462
03:30:52,319 --> 03:30:56,239
this is because they now see themselves in power. Instead

3463
03:30:56,239 --> 03:30:59,520
of using Fuco to criticize the current paradigm, they seem

3464
03:30:59,559 --> 03:31:03,000
to remain frozen forever analyzing the culture of the nineteen

3465
03:31:03,079 --> 03:31:06,000
fifties and deconstructing the last one.

3466
03:31:06,440 --> 03:31:11,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right, That's that's the irony of of I

3467
03:31:11,520 --> 03:31:14,920
guess modern political scientists who are kind of bathe in

3468
03:31:16,079 --> 03:31:19,360
Fucoian concepts but don't really seem to apply them to

3469
03:31:20,559 --> 03:31:24,040
the existing paradigm and existing power structures. Right, they continue

3470
03:31:24,079 --> 03:31:27,200
applying them to the past, and the past always provides

3471
03:31:27,239 --> 03:31:33,760
a justification for kind of reshaping the future. Like I said,

3472
03:31:33,879 --> 03:31:38,200
I actually think at this point you would get more understanding.

3473
03:31:38,600 --> 03:31:41,159
It's probably more constructive to read people like Fuco at

3474
03:31:41,200 --> 03:31:44,319
this point in order to understand like the problems and

3475
03:31:44,639 --> 03:31:50,440
how power works in the world that you know, people

3476
03:31:50,440 --> 03:31:54,159
like Fuco made. Then you know, reading like Locke and

3477
03:31:54,719 --> 03:31:58,079
kind of pretending that we still live in this like

3478
03:31:58,280 --> 03:32:02,120
you know, nineteenth century role constitutional republic or something like that.

3479
03:32:02,159 --> 03:32:06,440
I think I think Foucaut was himself like a sexual

3480
03:32:06,479 --> 03:32:10,120
deviant and a terrible human being, but his insights on

3481
03:32:10,239 --> 03:32:15,200
power are actually are really useful. And I think that

3482
03:32:16,040 --> 03:32:19,959
for Foucaut, he was writing as someone who viewed himself

3483
03:32:20,040 --> 03:32:23,239
as kind of out of power, right, And so when

3484
03:32:23,239 --> 03:32:26,040
you're someone who views themselves as part of the of

3485
03:32:26,440 --> 03:32:30,360
a marginalized community, because Fucau is he was gay, and

3486
03:32:30,879 --> 03:32:33,360
but not just that, like he was part of this

3487
03:32:33,920 --> 03:32:40,799
French group of intellectuals that signed a petition for abolishing

3488
03:32:40,879 --> 03:32:44,079
age of consent laws in France. Like the guy was

3489
03:32:44,120 --> 03:32:48,840
messed up, but as an outsider who kind of sees

3490
03:32:49,200 --> 03:32:53,159
all of these these taboos and taboos exist for a reason.

3491
03:32:53,159 --> 03:32:57,159
But all of these kind of these things that make

3492
03:32:57,239 --> 03:33:01,319
people behave and think and act a certain way as

3493
03:33:01,360 --> 03:33:05,479
as basically kind of constraints on your own individualism. Uh,

3494
03:33:05,520 --> 03:33:07,840
then you're going to want to figure out how these

3495
03:33:08,079 --> 03:33:11,479
how these power structures work and how to dismantle them.

3496
03:33:12,399 --> 03:33:15,680
And for someone who is you know, on the outside,

3497
03:33:15,840 --> 03:33:21,559
that makes sense, right, But I think the reason fouqu

3498
03:33:21,799 --> 03:33:24,760
is useful to the right right now, is that we're

3499
03:33:24,799 --> 03:33:26,799
the ones that are on the It's kind of it's

3500
03:33:26,799 --> 03:33:30,079
a it's a paradox right, the right, which is for

3501
03:33:30,159 --> 03:33:33,280
so long identified with like institutions like the military and

3502
03:33:33,360 --> 03:33:35,639
law enforcement and stuff like that, we're on the outside.

3503
03:33:35,680 --> 03:33:38,600
We have no control over institutions anymore. The institutions are

3504
03:33:38,639 --> 03:33:41,040
not conservative, they're not right wing. You are in the

3505
03:33:41,200 --> 03:33:43,479
You're basically in the shoes that people like fuc were in.

3506
03:33:44,280 --> 03:33:46,959
And that's why it actually behooves you to understand how

3507
03:33:46,959 --> 03:33:50,959
the regime actually works, rather than how we've been told

3508
03:33:50,959 --> 03:33:54,879
it does or how we would wish it did work. So,

3509
03:33:55,000 --> 03:33:59,040
I I mean that that's my that's my uh my

3510
03:33:59,280 --> 03:34:02,239
position on you know why, actually you should read for Go.

3511
03:34:03,520 --> 03:34:09,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, and Fuko wrote books on prisons, wrote books on medicine,

3512
03:34:09,760 --> 03:34:13,280
how medicine was being handled in the modern time. I mean,

3513
03:34:14,120 --> 03:34:16,959
we know he was a deviant. A lot of that work, though,

3514
03:34:17,120 --> 03:34:21,559
is is spot on, especially especially in light of today. Okay,

3515
03:34:21,639 --> 03:34:26,399
so all right, we are quoting Gottfried here. Christopher Lash

3516
03:34:26,440 --> 03:34:29,159
explains the process by which the therapeutic segment of the

3517
03:34:29,200 --> 03:34:33,559
managerial elite won moral acceptance despite that it claims to

3518
03:34:33,600 --> 03:34:39,399
be providing mental health, we're always mental health, We're always

3519
03:34:39,399 --> 03:34:43,959
self serving and highly subjective. The therapeutic class offered ethical

3520
03:34:44,040 --> 03:34:49,520
leadership in the absence of shared principles. By defining emotional

3521
03:34:49,520 --> 03:34:53,000
well being as both a social good and the overcoming

3522
03:34:53,079 --> 03:34:57,799
of what is individually and collectively dangerous, the behavioral scientists

3523
03:34:57,879 --> 03:35:01,159
have been able to impose their absence stes upon a

3524
03:35:01,200 --> 03:35:06,159
culturally fluid society. In The True and Only Heaven, Lash

3525
03:35:06,239 --> 03:35:11,200
explores the implications for post war politics of the authoritarian personality.

3526
03:35:12,040 --> 03:35:17,200
A chief contributor to this anthology, Theodor Adorno, abandoned his

3527
03:35:17,319 --> 03:35:20,639
earlier work as a cultural critic to become a proponent

3528
03:35:20,719 --> 03:35:26,879
of governmentally imposed social therapy. According to Lash, Adorno condemns

3529
03:35:27,120 --> 03:35:32,399
undesirable political attitudes as prejudice, and by defining prejudice as

3530
03:35:32,399 --> 03:35:36,920
a social disease, substituted a medical for a political idiom.

3531
03:35:37,799 --> 03:35:41,719
In the end, Adorno and his colleagues relegated a broad

3532
03:35:41,840 --> 03:35:46,399
range of controversial issues to the clinic to scientific study

3533
03:35:46,440 --> 03:35:49,440
as opposed to philosophical and political debate.

3534
03:35:50,200 --> 03:35:54,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think this is another aspect of this particular

3535
03:35:54,920 --> 03:35:57,479
section of the chapter that I think is really really important,

3536
03:35:57,479 --> 03:36:04,879
really fascinating that this dissent disagreement is no longer merely

3537
03:36:04,959 --> 03:36:08,520
a difference in opinions. It's it's pathologized. It's indicative actually

3538
03:36:08,520 --> 03:36:12,559
of a social disease. I think that's that's you really

3539
03:36:12,559 --> 03:36:16,360
saw this play out with like the arms armchair psychology

3540
03:36:16,920 --> 03:36:19,600
that people performed on Trump while he was in office, right,

3541
03:36:19,840 --> 03:36:24,719
Like and these like popular psychology magazines, people writing about,

3542
03:36:24,920 --> 03:36:27,280
you know, what what makes Trump tick? And it's always

3543
03:36:27,319 --> 03:36:30,920
something like fascism, right, or what makes his his base tick?

3544
03:36:31,040 --> 03:36:35,280
Whi's always something like fascism. It always seems to come

3545
03:36:35,319 --> 03:36:40,399
back to that. But the point is is that these

3546
03:36:40,440 --> 03:36:46,520
people literally don't accept viewpoints that are that that they

3547
03:36:46,559 --> 03:36:50,479
don't hold. It just can't be that way. It has

3548
03:36:50,559 --> 03:36:54,000
to be indicative of some kind of pathology. Right, If

3549
03:36:54,040 --> 03:36:58,959
you don't like like transgender activism or like LGBT activism,

3550
03:36:59,000 --> 03:37:02,639
it's probably because you're posed. Right, If you don't like feminism,

3551
03:37:02,959 --> 03:37:06,239
it's it's because you hate women. It's like there's if

3552
03:37:06,280 --> 03:37:08,000
you don't like if you think that we should have

3553
03:37:08,040 --> 03:37:11,319
borders in immigration restriction, it's because you hate immigrants and

3554
03:37:11,319 --> 03:37:15,520
brown people. Like it's always it always actually has to

3555
03:37:15,559 --> 03:37:19,559
be just a kind of surface level, a symptom of

3556
03:37:19,600 --> 03:37:23,840
some deep seated pathought, some sickness that needs to be

3557
03:37:23,959 --> 03:37:30,120
cured by therapy and social engineering. Uh. And what's important

3558
03:37:30,120 --> 03:37:33,319
about that is that it means that they're never just

3559
03:37:33,399 --> 03:37:37,479
going to accept differing views. And I think that somehow

3560
03:37:37,520 --> 03:37:41,600
this is connected also to our foreign policy, this idea

3561
03:37:41,799 --> 03:37:46,399
that that there's only if there's only one set of

3562
03:37:46,440 --> 03:37:51,120
acceptable political views and social views, then it follows that

3563
03:37:51,159 --> 03:37:54,920
there's probably only going to be one acceptable form of government,

3564
03:37:55,360 --> 03:37:59,319
right in all other governments that are not that are

3565
03:37:59,479 --> 03:38:04,440
existent threats to you, and they have to be reconstructed.

3566
03:38:05,120 --> 03:38:07,559
And like you see this and they're like the rhetoric

3567
03:38:07,559 --> 03:38:11,200
of like neo conservatives and foreign policy. Uh, every every

3568
03:38:11,280 --> 03:38:15,760
every geopolitical thing today is always like a contest between

3569
03:38:16,000 --> 03:38:22,360
autocracy and liberal democracy. Right. We literally can't leave countries

3570
03:38:22,680 --> 03:38:25,959
alone that that our foreign policy establishment does not see

3571
03:38:25,959 --> 03:38:30,799
as liberal democracies. Why because because it's unacceptable. It's unacceptable

3572
03:38:30,799 --> 03:38:34,040
that there could be another form of government, another another

3573
03:38:34,120 --> 03:38:37,399
consensus in other words, on government. It's just not acceptable.

3574
03:38:37,680 --> 03:38:40,520
And the same thing obviously applies to domestic politics.

3575
03:38:42,000 --> 03:38:44,280
Speaker 1: If you want to support the show head on over

3576
03:38:44,360 --> 03:38:48,239
to Freemanbeyond Thewall dot com Forward slash Support. You can

3577
03:38:48,280 --> 03:38:50,639
see all the ways you can do it, including right

3578
03:38:50,680 --> 03:38:53,760
there on the website, which is the best way. Also

3579
03:38:53,879 --> 03:38:57,479
Patreon and subscribe star and I even have some cryptocurrency

3580
03:38:57,479 --> 03:39:00,719
addresses listed there. So head on over to Freemanbeyond the

3581
03:39:00,760 --> 03:39:06,520
Wall dot com forward slash support and thank you. One

3582
03:39:06,520 --> 03:39:10,760
of the reasons why when the troops are leaving Afghanistan

3583
03:39:10,920 --> 03:39:15,360
you see pictures coming out and reports of George Floyd

3584
03:39:15,440 --> 03:39:21,000
murals in Afghanistan, and that schools we're teaching gender studies

3585
03:39:21,840 --> 03:39:26,040
in Afghanistan, they have to export that to they have

3586
03:39:26,120 --> 03:39:30,760
to export that there. And it's it's a religion, it's

3587
03:39:30,879 --> 03:39:37,319
it's very evangelical in nature. Moving on, As per Karl Schmidt,

3588
03:39:37,479 --> 03:39:42,280
there are no neutral institutions, including medical and psychiatric institutions.

3589
03:39:42,879 --> 03:39:46,639
If the managerial state makes anti discrimination the moral center

3590
03:39:46,719 --> 03:39:51,280
of its political formula, then discriminatory views are diagnosed as

3591
03:39:51,399 --> 03:39:57,600
mentally abnormal. In such a regime, unconscious bias training is

3592
03:39:57,639 --> 03:40:00,920
mandated at most workplaces and for employ coloyees of the state,

3593
03:40:01,280 --> 03:40:04,639
despite empirical proof that it does not even achieve the

3594
03:40:04,680 --> 03:40:08,680
behavior modification at which it aims by admission of the

3595
03:40:08,680 --> 03:40:14,799
British Government. The UK Cabinet Office's written statement on unconscious

3596
03:40:14,840 --> 03:40:19,000
bias training, ostensibly written in the neutral language of science,

3597
03:40:19,440 --> 03:40:23,280
concludes by reaffirming its commitment to the political formula of

3598
03:40:23,319 --> 03:40:30,200
the therapeutic state, equality, diversity and inclusion. The Civil Service

3599
03:40:30,239 --> 03:40:35,079
will therefore integrate principles for inclusion and diversity into mainstream

3600
03:40:35,200 --> 03:40:40,239
core training and leadership modules in a manner which facilitates

3601
03:40:40,319 --> 03:40:45,440
positive behavior change. Here is an open declaration that the

3602
03:40:45,440 --> 03:40:49,200
state is engaged in positive behavior change as a central

3603
03:40:49,239 --> 03:40:53,399
mission at the time of writing. The former UK Prime

3604
03:40:53,399 --> 03:40:56,879
Minister Tony Blair, speaking in an interview at CNN, said

3605
03:40:57,360 --> 03:41:00,319
it's an indicator of how broken politics has been that

3606
03:41:00,399 --> 03:41:04,719
the issue of vaccination has become should become political. I mean,

3607
03:41:04,760 --> 03:41:08,440
it's just a question of science. One might ask mister

3608
03:41:08,479 --> 03:41:11,280
Blair how the issue of having one's body penetrated by

3609
03:41:11,280 --> 03:41:14,040
a foreign object by order of the government could ever

3610
03:41:14,200 --> 03:41:15,239
not be political.

3611
03:41:16,360 --> 03:41:20,559
Speaker 3: This Paul talks about this and after liberalism that basically

3612
03:41:20,639 --> 03:41:26,920
like the clinicalization of everything that in the early and

3613
03:41:27,000 --> 03:41:36,399
mid twenties, say the mid twentieth century, you have, I'm

3614
03:41:36,399 --> 03:41:39,280
my actually having going to give a timeline for this

3615
03:41:39,319 --> 03:41:42,079
stuff because it's I haven't I haven't absorbed it enough.

3616
03:41:42,239 --> 03:41:47,120
But basically, what Paul argues in general is that psychiatry

3617
03:41:47,159 --> 03:41:51,360
arose initially in the United States is something that was

3618
03:41:51,479 --> 03:41:57,840
used to address things like alcoholism and domestic violence. Right. So,

3619
03:41:57,879 --> 03:42:00,239
in other words, Paul suggests that, Okay, in the beginning,

3620
03:42:00,239 --> 03:42:02,479
this stuff might you know, probably did have some merit

3621
03:42:03,319 --> 03:42:08,040
in kind of correcting deviant behavior. But then something happened

3622
03:42:08,520 --> 03:42:11,959
and progressives, the progressive movement in the United States and

3623
03:42:12,000 --> 03:42:17,159
its adherents basically started to view things like psychiatry not

3624
03:42:17,399 --> 03:42:21,200
as correctives, not as a kind of something that we

3625
03:42:21,319 --> 03:42:22,920
use to treat people who are behaving in a way

3626
03:42:23,000 --> 03:42:26,639
that's bad, you know, like an alcoholic or something. Instead,

3627
03:42:26,719 --> 03:42:30,360
we can actually use it to socially engineered society a

3628
03:42:30,360 --> 03:42:34,120
certain way, in other words, to foster a certain kind

3629
03:42:34,239 --> 03:42:39,360
of populace or citizenry that actually, I mean, we say citizenry,

3630
03:42:39,440 --> 03:42:42,760
but really you're talking more about like subjects, right, And

3631
03:42:42,799 --> 03:42:47,760
I think it reminds me of this this idea that

3632
03:42:49,239 --> 03:42:53,159
Michelle fu Cooh had that basically in the seventeenth century,

3633
03:42:53,559 --> 03:42:59,200
you had this this kind of this emerging new type

3634
03:42:59,200 --> 03:43:06,000
of power that he called biopower. That basically the moment

3635
03:43:06,520 --> 03:43:13,840
that rulers, the moment that sovereigns took it upon themselves

3636
03:43:13,879 --> 03:43:19,000
to kind of concern themselves with the the the welfare

3637
03:43:19,639 --> 03:43:23,319
of the population through through things like not just you know,

3638
03:43:23,360 --> 03:43:26,879
obvious things like medical services and things like that in

3639
03:43:26,879 --> 03:43:29,079
public services, but also even I mean, like I think

3640
03:43:29,120 --> 03:43:32,399
fu CO even includes like census keeping, kind of like

3641
03:43:32,440 --> 03:43:35,760
the moment that we started to put people on Excel

3642
03:43:35,799 --> 03:43:39,120
spreadsheets or whatever the seventeenth century equivalent of that is, right.

3643
03:43:40,159 --> 03:43:42,040
And then obviously onward from that, the moment that we

3644
03:43:42,079 --> 03:43:47,159
started to do that, something happened where regimes began to

3645
03:43:47,200 --> 03:43:50,399
concern themselves with fostering a kind of way of life.

3646
03:43:50,399 --> 03:43:54,040
That power before that was what the CO called subtractive,

3647
03:43:54,639 --> 03:43:57,959
So power before that, the way that you experienced it

3648
03:43:58,079 --> 03:44:01,040
was the regime would take things away from you. It

3649
03:44:01,040 --> 03:44:03,040
would take your life away from you, it would take

3650
03:44:03,040 --> 03:44:06,440
your freedom away from you, it would take your your property.

3651
03:44:06,440 --> 03:44:09,159
Way it still does those things obviously, right, but then

3652
03:44:09,200 --> 03:44:13,200
this new type of power, biopower, starts to it's a

3653
03:44:13,239 --> 03:44:16,319
it's a it's a kind of prestrict prescriptive power that

3654
03:44:16,399 --> 03:44:21,239
the regime is that regimes going forward started to cultivate

3655
03:44:21,959 --> 03:44:25,079
ways of living. And I think this is this is

3656
03:44:25,120 --> 03:44:27,879
a really fascinating concept, and I think it's something that

3657
03:44:27,920 --> 03:44:31,360
they're right, doesn't think about enough. Uh, this whole idea

3658
03:44:31,479 --> 03:44:35,079
of social engineering. I think we do and we don't.

3659
03:44:35,680 --> 03:44:37,879
But I mean, I think Paul's treatment, I'm kind of

3660
03:44:37,920 --> 03:44:40,799
I'm butchering right now, but Paul's treatment and after liberalism

3661
03:44:41,360 --> 03:44:44,959
is it's really incredible because I mean, even I think

3662
03:44:45,079 --> 03:44:48,239
even you see the effects of these things and the

3663
03:44:48,239 --> 03:44:51,440
way that conservatives have conversations where they make distinctions between

3664
03:44:51,440 --> 03:44:54,479
like sex and gender without realizing that all of this stuff,

3665
03:44:54,479 --> 03:44:57,360
even even the words that we use it all right,

3666
03:44:57,719 --> 03:45:01,920
it all derives from these institutions that have been totally

3667
03:45:01,959 --> 03:45:04,399
captured and turned against us, to the extent that we

3668
03:45:04,440 --> 03:45:08,120
don't even realize that we're still kind of operating within

3669
03:45:08,479 --> 03:45:11,239
the language that these people have created in their paradigms.

3670
03:45:11,719 --> 03:45:14,000
When we're trying to refute, like leftists or something like

3671
03:45:14,000 --> 03:45:16,120
that about how like, you know, sex is real and

3672
03:45:16,159 --> 03:45:19,559
biologically grounded or something like that, we still will use

3673
03:45:19,639 --> 03:45:22,879
words and concepts that are developed by these people. I

3674
03:45:22,920 --> 03:45:26,719
don't know if that makes sense, but.

3675
03:45:25,479 --> 03:45:31,120
Speaker 1: Just conservatives are conservative conserving liberalism and progressivism.

3676
03:45:31,399 --> 03:45:34,520
Speaker 3: It's worse than that, I think, actually, but yeah, correct.

3677
03:45:34,760 --> 03:45:39,079
Speaker 1: But simply for somebody who you know, doesn't really follow

3678
03:45:39,079 --> 03:45:41,399
and read a lot of what we you know, a

3679
03:45:41,399 --> 03:45:45,600
lot of what we do is basically there. It makes

3680
03:45:45,639 --> 03:45:48,559
its way in, It makes its way into everything. It

3681
03:45:48,600 --> 03:45:51,000
insinuates its way even into your thinking.

3682
03:45:51,440 --> 03:45:55,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think even this idea of like like

3683
03:45:55,600 --> 03:45:58,000
it's just science, right, it's a question of science. I mean,

3684
03:45:58,040 --> 03:46:01,760
even that a great It's funny. I was thinking about

3685
03:46:01,760 --> 03:46:05,680
this the other day. Ask someone what is receptivism? So

3686
03:46:05,920 --> 03:46:08,600
ask someone who's like pro criminal justice reform, you know,

3687
03:46:08,680 --> 03:46:11,920
pro defund the police or whatever, and ask them what's uh,

3688
03:46:12,600 --> 03:46:15,200
because obviously they'll they'll tell you that, like, you know,

3689
03:46:15,440 --> 03:46:18,920
recetivism programs work. These programs where we're like, you know,

3690
03:46:19,000 --> 03:46:22,239
dangerous criminals can rehabilitate themselves by like washing dogs in

3691
03:46:22,239 --> 03:46:25,520
prison and stuff like that, that it works. And see,

3692
03:46:25,719 --> 03:46:28,520
just ask them a simple question, because there's so certain

3693
03:46:28,719 --> 03:46:31,639
that recetivism has been reduced, right, So you ask them,

3694
03:46:31,639 --> 03:46:33,360
like what is recetivism and they'll tell you, well, the

3695
03:46:33,440 --> 03:46:36,079
likelihood of someone to reoffend once they get out of prison,

3696
03:46:37,399 --> 03:46:41,600
But that's not true. In Ohio. Recetivism is not that straightforward.

3697
03:46:41,680 --> 03:46:43,639
Like if you get out of a prison and you know,

3698
03:46:43,680 --> 03:46:46,639
in a particular county and you grow across the state

3699
03:46:46,920 --> 03:46:48,719
state line to like Michigan, and you can and you

3700
03:46:48,719 --> 03:46:50,360
commit a crime there and you go back to prison.

3701
03:46:50,760 --> 03:46:54,239
As far as the Ohio Corrections Department is concerned, you're

3702
03:46:54,239 --> 03:46:57,200
not a recetivist because you committed that crime in Michigan.

3703
03:46:58,280 --> 03:47:01,120
And I think that gets at this problem of like, well,

3704
03:47:01,120 --> 03:47:05,600
it's science, it's empirical, objective data. How could you argue

3705
03:47:05,600 --> 03:47:09,360
with that? It's neutral in other words, but obviously nothing

3706
03:47:09,440 --> 03:47:13,760
is neutral, like your truth claims that you think are

3707
03:47:13,799 --> 03:47:18,360
founded on objective, empirical fact are not because they are

3708
03:47:18,479 --> 03:47:23,040
laundered through institutions that are politicized, like every institution is.

3709
03:47:23,559 --> 03:47:25,479
And so you actually, I mean, if you really think

3710
03:47:25,520 --> 03:47:27,799
about this, you might even go crazy, because what basically

3711
03:47:27,799 --> 03:47:31,399
what we're saying is is that, like the foundation for

3712
03:47:31,600 --> 03:47:37,520
truth does not really stand on anything in Western liberal

3713
03:47:37,559 --> 03:47:40,920
societies today except for basically just you know, the opinions

3714
03:47:40,920 --> 03:47:44,079
of people who are insane and unfortunately also in power.

3715
03:47:45,719 --> 03:47:46,479
Speaker 2: We will move on.

3716
03:47:47,200 --> 03:47:50,319
Speaker 1: It is important for us to grasp here the salient features.

3717
03:47:50,600 --> 03:47:54,360
The salient feature of Godfreed's analysis, which is not merely

3718
03:47:54,440 --> 03:47:57,079
to say that the managerial state has developed and adopted

3719
03:47:57,079 --> 03:48:01,000
this ideology and those tools of mast manipulation to justify

3720
03:48:01,040 --> 03:48:03,879
its own power, but also that has developed them as

3721
03:48:03,920 --> 03:48:09,120
a political political weapon. Quoting Gottfried, the political class has

3722
03:48:09,159 --> 03:48:13,479
adopted inclusiveness and diversity as a political instrument as a

3723
03:48:13,559 --> 03:48:16,799
means of controlling a society it has set about reshaping.

3724
03:48:17,239 --> 03:48:20,559
The diversity machine is a mechanism of state power that

3725
03:48:20,680 --> 03:48:24,840
operates without anyone being permitted to notice its coercive nature.

3726
03:48:25,719 --> 03:48:29,680
Therapeutic regimes are packaged in a way that disguises their

3727
03:48:29,719 --> 03:48:33,280
resort to force both the left and establishment right. In

3728
03:48:33,319 --> 03:48:38,000
the United States, the states which misrepresent political life have

3729
03:48:38,120 --> 03:48:44,000
helped to make this concealment possible. Thus, insidious efforts at

3730
03:48:44,079 --> 03:48:48,479
social engineering are shrouded in a cloak of benevolence. In

3731
03:48:48,600 --> 03:48:53,239
managerial double speak, Flatly, coercive programs are cast as vehicles

3732
03:48:53,239 --> 03:48:57,959
for empowerment. One is reminded of when Bob Dylan says

3733
03:48:58,120 --> 03:49:01,200
good intentions can be evil. Both hands can be full

3734
03:49:01,239 --> 03:49:04,639
of Greece. You know that sometimes satan comes as a

3735
03:49:04,639 --> 03:49:09,120
man of peace. Every moral revolution expands the realm of

3736
03:49:09,200 --> 03:49:13,840
managerial control. The government, now in place searches out radical

3737
03:49:13,879 --> 03:49:17,920
forces in order to break down non inclusive behavioral patterns

3738
03:49:18,120 --> 03:49:22,760
and to subjugate citizens. Those who favor such a course

3739
03:49:23,040 --> 03:49:26,760
for individual or collective reasons will empower the state to

3740
03:49:26,879 --> 03:49:30,319
pursue it. The most blatant example of this in recent

3741
03:49:30,399 --> 03:49:34,639
years has been the borderline insane push to recognize transgender

3742
03:49:34,680 --> 03:49:38,840
men and women as being indistinguishable from what from so

3743
03:49:38,920 --> 03:49:40,399
called CIS men and women.

3744
03:49:42,200 --> 03:49:46,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, but no, that's you keep reading. I'll comment after

3745
03:49:46,200 --> 03:49:47,959
the JK Rolling thing, Okay.

3746
03:49:48,879 --> 03:49:53,920
Speaker 1: The public maintenance of obvious fictions and falsehoods signals allegiance

3747
03:49:54,040 --> 03:49:57,280
and obedience to the regime and serves no other function

3748
03:49:57,399 --> 03:50:01,639
whatsoever than to punish dissonance. The most famous example of

3749
03:50:01,639 --> 03:50:05,559
this has been the attempted unpersoning of the otherwise pristinely

3750
03:50:05,600 --> 03:50:10,440
political correct, politically correct liberal JK. Rowling for her alleged

3751
03:50:10,639 --> 03:50:15,280
transphobia controversies around You want to do it now?

3752
03:50:15,840 --> 03:50:19,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, sure, no, I think this is I mean, this

3753
03:50:19,879 --> 03:50:21,959
gets it kind of the point that we were discussing earlier,

3754
03:50:22,040 --> 03:50:24,399
where I mean, and I've been guilty of this too,

3755
03:50:24,559 --> 03:50:28,760
just kind of out of laziness. But it's kind of

3756
03:50:28,799 --> 03:50:30,760
like the marriage thing, right, Like the moment that you

3757
03:50:30,799 --> 03:50:34,159
start referring to marriage as traditional marriage to make a

3758
03:50:34,200 --> 03:50:38,719
distinction between traditional marriage and you know, non traditional marriage

3759
03:50:38,959 --> 03:50:43,479
or you know, gay marriage or whatever, you've already kind

3760
03:50:43,479 --> 03:50:46,639
of lost because you've already had to make that distinction

3761
03:50:46,879 --> 03:50:51,159
and you've created a second category. And Patrick Denen is

3762
03:50:51,159 --> 03:50:53,040
actually very good at pointing this out when it comes

3763
03:50:53,079 --> 03:50:55,920
to marriage, but it obviously it applies to much more so.

3764
03:50:56,159 --> 03:50:59,559
The moment that you start saying SIS women or CIS men,

3765
03:50:59,680 --> 03:51:03,760
or even biological men and biological women. The moment that

3766
03:51:03,799 --> 03:51:06,959
you do that you've you've kind of created, You've implied

3767
03:51:06,959 --> 03:51:10,079
that there is a second category of women, and that

3768
03:51:10,559 --> 03:51:15,319
these other people that occupy this category are not really women,

3769
03:51:16,159 --> 03:51:18,120
but maybe they are in one sense, you know what

3770
03:51:18,159 --> 03:51:21,799
I'm saying. And I think that conservatives and in a

3771
03:51:21,879 --> 03:51:24,799
much more absurd level, this this applies to the idea

3772
03:51:24,840 --> 03:51:28,319
that you know, you have some of these so called

3773
03:51:28,360 --> 03:51:32,639
good liberals and some conservatives too, who oppose, you know,

3774
03:51:32,760 --> 03:51:36,840
militantly transgenderism and kids, but are actually fine with the

3775
03:51:36,840 --> 03:51:41,879
idea of transgenderism as a concept. For for consenting adults

3776
03:51:42,399 --> 03:51:45,440
who understand the implications of what they're getting into, so

3777
03:51:45,520 --> 03:51:50,520
they actually accept the most important premises. And I think

3778
03:51:50,840 --> 03:51:54,079
Rolling kind of falls. I mean, she does, and she

3779
03:51:54,120 --> 03:51:56,959
doesn't like she you know, she she's rejected the idea

3780
03:51:57,120 --> 03:52:01,520
that men who mudiately themselves can become women and all that,

3781
03:52:02,040 --> 03:52:05,559
but Rolling accepts a lot of other premises that kind

3782
03:52:05,600 --> 03:52:08,600
of made this whole thing inevitable. And in my view,

3783
03:52:08,639 --> 03:52:12,079
a lot of the stuff derives from feminism, the idea

3784
03:52:12,280 --> 03:52:16,479
that we should essentially destroy distinctions between men and women.

3785
03:52:16,920 --> 03:52:20,879
It's kind of coming back to bite people like Rolling.

3786
03:52:21,559 --> 03:52:25,280
But anyways, Yeah, I think the language thing is important.

3787
03:52:25,680 --> 03:52:28,520
That's the part that caught my eye about this section.

3788
03:52:28,639 --> 03:52:32,079
The whole cis men or biological men, stuff like that.

3789
03:52:33,280 --> 03:52:36,639
Speaker 1: Controversy surrounding her failure to abide by the new managerial

3790
03:52:36,840 --> 03:52:41,360
edict to recognize biological men who take hormone supplements and

3791
03:52:41,440 --> 03:52:45,079
wear skirts as women and biological women who take testosterone

3792
03:52:45,600 --> 03:52:49,000
supplements and wear masculine clothing as men has led to,

3793
03:52:49,360 --> 03:52:53,040
among other things, a school dropping her name from a building,

3794
03:52:53,159 --> 03:52:59,079
and her virtual erasure from a twenty year Harry Potter reunion.

3795
03:53:00,559 --> 03:53:03,559
In two thousand and two, Gottfried predicted correctly, as it

3796
03:53:03,559 --> 03:53:08,040
turned out that the ever widening chasm between the equality, diversity,

3797
03:53:08,079 --> 03:53:11,479
and inclusion doctrine of the therapeutic state and the lived

3798
03:53:11,520 --> 03:53:14,920
reality and beliefs of most ordinary people would result in

3799
03:53:14,959 --> 03:53:19,559
a populous backlash against managerial overreach. He claimed that the

3800
03:53:19,600 --> 03:53:23,079
regime faces a paradigm crisis in which the gap between

3801
03:53:23,120 --> 03:53:27,719
its democratic and liberal self descriptions and its imposed social

3802
03:53:27,760 --> 03:53:31,959
policies would become too obvious to escape notice, and therefore

3803
03:53:32,239 --> 03:53:36,000
the efforts to justify these policies with archaic terminology or

3804
03:53:36,120 --> 03:53:41,239
human rights rhetoric no longer illicit widespread belief. At the

3805
03:53:41,239 --> 03:53:44,360
time of writing. A recent study by the University of

3806
03:53:44,440 --> 03:53:47,799
Chicago has found that forty seven million Americans are said

3807
03:53:47,840 --> 03:53:51,920
to believe that the twenty twenty election was stolen. Twenty

3808
03:53:51,959 --> 03:53:55,159
one million believed that Joe Biden is not a legitimate president.

3809
03:53:55,879 --> 03:53:59,040
Sixty three percent of people agree with the statement that

3810
03:53:59,120 --> 03:54:03,079
African Americans people or Hispanic people in our country will

3811
03:54:03,079 --> 03:54:07,360
eventually have more rights than whites, a belief sometimes called

3812
03:54:07,360 --> 03:54:11,879
the Great Replacement, and fifty four percent agree that a

3813
03:54:12,000 --> 03:54:16,360
secret group of Satan worshiping pedophiles is ruling the US government,

3814
03:54:16,719 --> 03:54:20,239
which is the key belief in the QAnon movement. A

3815
03:54:20,280 --> 03:54:22,959
more recent poll has found that one in three Americans

3816
03:54:23,000 --> 03:54:27,520
believe that violence against the government is justified. Mosco's warning

3817
03:54:27,559 --> 03:54:29,920
that no ruling class can remain a ruling class for

3818
03:54:30,000 --> 03:54:34,000
as long as for long if the masses do not

3819
03:54:34,079 --> 03:54:38,319
buy into its political formula seems to ring ever louder.

3820
03:54:38,600 --> 03:54:40,600
Speaker 3: Now, I think, I mean, you see this playing out

3821
03:54:40,639 --> 03:54:46,200
in all these warnings that there are two articles that

3822
03:54:46,319 --> 03:54:49,719
stand out that recently were published, and I think one

3823
03:54:49,760 --> 03:54:51,920
was in the Associated Press. But it's like, you know,

3824
03:54:52,000 --> 03:54:54,479
more people that have before living in their own reality

3825
03:54:56,239 --> 03:55:02,079
or basically the faith or yeah, I guess faith in

3826
03:55:02,120 --> 03:55:06,920
American institutions is plummeting institutions that are responsible for like

3827
03:55:06,959 --> 03:55:12,319
creating consensus, right, And I don't know. I think I

3828
03:55:12,360 --> 03:55:17,520
generally want to agree with Moscow that that basically ruling

3829
03:55:17,559 --> 03:55:23,159
classes historically have required people to buy into the political

3830
03:55:23,239 --> 03:55:25,680
formula in order for them to stay in power. But

3831
03:55:28,200 --> 03:55:32,760
something about the our contemporary problems seem difficult and might

3832
03:55:32,799 --> 03:55:34,559
have just something to do with the level of comfort

3833
03:55:34,600 --> 03:55:38,079
the average person enjoys, you know, like as angry as

3834
03:55:38,360 --> 03:55:43,760
you're like your boomer Republican gets about what Biden is doing.

3835
03:55:44,479 --> 03:55:46,479
Not not just boomers, this is not just like a

3836
03:55:46,520 --> 03:55:49,360
boomer problem, but like you take someone who's like super

3837
03:55:49,399 --> 03:55:56,079
super angry about what Biden is doing, and they still

3838
03:55:56,120 --> 03:56:00,319
will participate in things that contribute to all these problemroblems

3839
03:56:00,319 --> 03:56:02,879
that they think are ruining society. I think the most

3840
03:56:02,959 --> 03:56:06,200
obvious example of this is probably like like sports, right,

3841
03:56:06,600 --> 03:56:12,120
like watching professional sports. Like there are so many conservatives

3842
03:56:12,159 --> 03:56:17,239
who are addicted to watching professional sports obsessively, knowing that

3843
03:56:17,760 --> 03:56:21,559
their money and their attention and their emotions are being

3844
03:56:21,639 --> 03:56:27,120
invested in something that is totally opposed to the things

3845
03:56:27,120 --> 03:56:30,680
they claim to hold dear. You know, like pretty much

3846
03:56:30,680 --> 03:56:35,600
every sports institution is like that, supporting BLM, supporting transgenders

3847
03:56:35,600 --> 03:56:38,239
and stuff like that, And every time that you like

3848
03:56:38,319 --> 03:56:40,799
buy a jersey or watch a game or something like that,

3849
03:56:40,920 --> 03:56:44,440
you're supporting those things even though you don't agree with

3850
03:56:44,479 --> 03:56:49,040
the political formula. Right, you reject the political formula when

3851
03:56:49,040 --> 03:56:52,440
it's presented to you, but then you continue doing things

3852
03:56:52,520 --> 03:56:59,399
that actually support the system to which the political formula

3853
03:56:59,440 --> 03:57:02,840
is part. And I think that that is I mean,

3854
03:57:03,079 --> 03:57:05,879
we've always had bred in circuses right, that's that's nothing new.

3855
03:57:05,920 --> 03:57:11,399
But something seems uniquely bad about contemporary bred and circuses

3856
03:57:11,440 --> 03:57:16,959
in our ability to or in its ability to make

3857
03:57:17,079 --> 03:57:21,040
this whole thing possible. That people could be simultaneously, you know,

3858
03:57:21,239 --> 03:57:24,000
angrier than they've ever been since the Civil War, but

3859
03:57:24,159 --> 03:57:31,760
still seemingly incapable to really do anything constructive with that anger. Yeah,

3860
03:57:32,000 --> 03:57:34,520
so I think it's a unique problem. I think, like

3861
03:57:34,559 --> 03:57:36,479
I said, I agree with Moscow, but I also think

3862
03:57:36,479 --> 03:57:38,760
that there's there's like something new has been added to

3863
03:57:38,799 --> 03:57:40,520
the mix that makes all of this worse.

3864
03:57:42,639 --> 03:57:45,760
Speaker 1: There is an article came out today from our friends

3865
03:57:46,200 --> 03:57:51,879
over at National Review showing that twenty teams in the

3866
03:57:52,000 --> 03:57:57,840
MLB Major League Baseball, are donating up to six figures

3867
03:57:57,879 --> 03:58:02,639
and some into six figures for youth gender transitioning.

3868
03:58:03,120 --> 03:58:05,520
Speaker 3: Yes, it's weird to me that people are like, wow,

3869
03:58:05,559 --> 03:58:09,959
this is outrageous. It's like, yeah, this, Why are you surprised?

3870
03:58:10,000 --> 03:58:11,760
It's outrageous that you're surprised by this?

3871
03:58:12,440 --> 03:58:17,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, Moving on where Francis took his cues,

3872
03:58:17,719 --> 03:58:22,520
chiefly from Burnham and Pereto. Godfried's chief influence was Karl Schmidt,

3873
03:58:22,559 --> 03:58:26,639
and in particular the primacy of the political the idea

3874
03:58:26,639 --> 03:58:29,120
that we could ever reach the end of history has

3875
03:58:29,159 --> 03:58:32,639
been shown to be nonsense. But Godfried stresses that a

3876
03:58:32,920 --> 03:58:37,680
peculiar feature of therapeutic managerialism is its need to maintain

3877
03:58:37,760 --> 03:58:41,719
the fiction of consensus. Previous ruling classes had no such

3878
03:58:41,760 --> 03:58:47,000
requirement and had more actual diversity of opinion within their ranks. However,

3879
03:58:47,120 --> 03:58:51,639
to function properly the therapeutic state requires the downplaying of

3880
03:58:51,760 --> 03:58:56,159
genuine political differences. The sorts of characters who attend the

3881
03:58:56,280 --> 03:58:59,559
Davos agenda hosted by the World Economic Forum, the most

3882
03:58:59,559 --> 03:59:03,959
elite men today speak in the language of consensus. One

3883
03:59:04,000 --> 03:59:08,000
such character, Larry Fink, the CEO of Blackrock, who manages

3884
03:59:08,040 --> 03:59:11,280
over seven point five trillion in assets and who can

3885
03:59:11,399 --> 03:59:15,159
name the US Federal Reserve as a client, uses phrases

3886
03:59:15,159 --> 03:59:19,360
such as public private partnerships and stresses that it is

3887
03:59:19,399 --> 03:59:23,479
important for CEOs across all business to be unified. It

3888
03:59:23,520 --> 03:59:26,760
has never been more essential for CEOs to have a

3889
03:59:26,799 --> 03:59:31,680
consistent voice. Although he speaks in gushing terms about the

3890
03:59:31,719 --> 03:59:35,520
power of capitalism, it is quickly clear that Fink's message

3891
03:59:35,520 --> 03:59:39,319
is managerial and at his vision for a quasi command

3892
03:59:39,600 --> 03:59:43,680
economy in which the controllers have capital dictate the investment

3893
03:59:43,760 --> 03:59:49,799
agenda for the future, quoting every company and every industry

3894
03:59:49,840 --> 03:59:54,319
will be transformed by the transition to a net zero world.

3895
03:59:55,040 --> 03:59:58,360
The question is will you lead or will you be led.

3896
03:59:59,319 --> 04:00:02,840
We focus on sustainability, and not because we're environmentalists, but

3897
04:00:02,920 --> 04:00:08,200
because we are capitalists and fiduciaries to our clients. Divesting

3898
04:00:08,319 --> 04:00:13,239
from entire sectors we're simply passing carbon intensive assets from

3899
04:00:13,280 --> 04:00:16,440
public markets to private markets will not get the world

3900
04:00:16,479 --> 04:00:19,559
to net zero. When we harness the power of both

3901
04:00:19,600 --> 04:00:24,719
the public and private sectors, we can achieve truly incredible things.

3902
04:00:25,440 --> 04:00:28,680
This is what we must do to get to net zero.

3903
04:00:30,280 --> 04:00:34,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I like, I'm probably one of the best

3904
04:00:34,440 --> 04:00:37,000
things about this book is the fact that it really

3905
04:00:37,120 --> 04:00:40,360
drives home this point that this idea that you're still

3906
04:00:40,360 --> 04:00:42,639
living in the world of like nineteenth century Leslie Fair

3907
04:00:42,719 --> 04:00:46,479
capitalism is subsurb you know. And it's funny because like

3908
04:00:46,559 --> 04:00:50,159
you still hear this on the like on the so

3909
04:00:50,200 --> 04:00:53,799
called dissident, right, Like you'll still hear people kind of

3910
04:00:54,040 --> 04:00:57,280
be critical of the I guess you could say the

3911
04:00:57,319 --> 04:01:01,440
anti capitalist rhetoric from people like myself, right, Like, basically

3912
04:01:01,680 --> 04:01:05,399
there's this concern that maybe we're going too far with it,

3913
04:01:05,680 --> 04:01:09,559
you know, going after corporations and things like that. But

3914
04:01:09,600 --> 04:01:13,479
it's like, no, we're actually not going far enough. And

3915
04:01:13,920 --> 04:01:17,079
when people like Clarry Think are telling you that we

3916
04:01:17,159 --> 04:01:20,520
need to kind of have this this increased partnership between

3917
04:01:20,520 --> 04:01:23,639
public and private sector or not, the partnership is there.

3918
04:01:23,840 --> 04:01:27,879
He's just saying that we need to mobilize together. The

3919
04:01:27,879 --> 04:01:30,840
so called capitalists are telling you that they're not really capitalists.

3920
04:01:30,879 --> 04:01:32,879
You know, Like, I don't know why we're arguing about this,

3921
04:01:33,200 --> 04:01:37,280
and I think obviously the more correct terms managerialism. That's

3922
04:01:37,319 --> 04:01:39,440
the kind of economy that we live under. So I

3923
04:01:40,159 --> 04:01:44,000
don't know. I think liberals complain that we live under

3924
04:01:44,159 --> 04:01:49,280
capitalist society. Conservatives claim that we live under socialism or

3925
04:01:49,280 --> 04:01:53,079
something or communism. No, it's actually it's a fusion of

3926
04:01:53,120 --> 04:01:55,000
both of those things. It's called managerialism.

3927
04:01:55,559 --> 04:01:56,520
Speaker 2: Yep, yep.

3928
04:01:59,200 --> 04:02:03,239
Speaker 1: Simply put, this is not capitalism. This is agenda setting,

3929
04:02:03,479 --> 04:02:06,440
whereby one of the most powerful executives in the world

3930
04:02:06,600 --> 04:02:09,600
announces five year and ten year plans for what the

3931
04:02:09,639 --> 04:02:12,959
future will look like in an almost entirely top down

3932
04:02:13,120 --> 04:02:18,479
managed economy. The language of consensus conceals the truly political

3933
04:02:18,600 --> 04:02:21,479
character of what Fink is saying. In fact, he has

3934
04:02:21,520 --> 04:02:25,719
the temerity to start his letter by saying that COVID

3935
04:02:26,079 --> 04:02:30,280
quoting Fink now. COVID nineteen has also deepened the erosion

3936
04:02:30,280 --> 04:02:35,319
of trust in traditional institutions and exacerbated polarization in many

3937
04:02:35,360 --> 04:02:40,120
Western societies. This polarization presents a host of new challenges

3938
04:02:40,120 --> 04:02:45,719
for CEOs. Political activists or the media may politicize things

3939
04:02:45,760 --> 04:02:49,360
your company does. They may hijack your brand to advance

3940
04:02:49,440 --> 04:02:53,719
their own agendas. In this environment, facts themselves are frequently

3941
04:02:53,760 --> 04:03:02,520
in dispute but business. But businesses have an opportunity to lead. Thus,

3942
04:03:02,760 --> 04:03:07,000
when he sets his net zero carbon agenda later, it

3943
04:03:07,079 --> 04:03:10,879
is cast in the politically neutral language of inevitability, but

3944
04:03:10,959 --> 04:03:15,399
in actuality, his letter contains an explicit threat. If CEOs

3945
04:03:15,440 --> 04:03:17,799
do not get on board with this agenda, they will

3946
04:03:17,840 --> 04:03:20,760
be left behind. They will be identified as the enemies

3947
04:03:20,760 --> 04:03:24,719
of progress, and someone, perhaps someone whose company owns half

3948
04:03:24,760 --> 04:03:28,200
the exchange traded funds in the world, might see to

3949
04:03:28,319 --> 04:03:30,639
it that these enemies no longer have a seat at

3950
04:03:30,639 --> 04:03:34,879
the table. In theory, the market decides, but in practice,

3951
04:03:34,920 --> 04:03:38,399
men like Larry Fink decide a company can now be

3952
04:03:38,520 --> 04:03:42,840
sunk regardless of its actual success with consumers, simply through

3953
04:03:42,920 --> 04:03:48,920
investor activism. Likewise, products that have little to no market demands,

3954
04:03:48,959 --> 04:03:51,959
such as Beyond Meat can be thrust onto the shelves

3955
04:03:51,959 --> 04:03:56,360
despite continually failing to sell. Appalling sales figures have not

3956
04:03:56,479 --> 04:04:01,239
stopped massive corporations such as McDonald's and Chaf's pushing beyond

3957
04:04:01,280 --> 04:04:03,399
meat plant burgers to the front and center of their

3958
04:04:03,479 --> 04:04:07,200
menus using the full bite of their advertising budgets.

3959
04:04:07,559 --> 04:04:11,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think this is get to another important point,

3960
04:04:11,879 --> 04:04:14,799
which is the idea that go woke, go broke is

3961
04:04:14,840 --> 04:04:17,479
a thing. It's not. It's a myth, it's a it's

3962
04:04:17,520 --> 04:04:21,840
a cope. Again that conservatives. I keep hammering conservatives because

3963
04:04:21,840 --> 04:04:24,319
that's that's that's like my audience, right, I'm trying to

3964
04:04:24,840 --> 04:04:27,399
all these people that you mean, well, but it's wrong

3965
04:04:28,799 --> 04:04:32,399
that yeah, that if places go woke, you know, no

3966
04:04:32,440 --> 04:04:34,920
one's gonna want to buy your stuff. Correct, no one

3967
04:04:35,000 --> 04:04:36,760
is going to want to buy you know, or actually

3968
04:04:36,799 --> 04:04:39,440
in time they will. I mean, that's just how this

3969
04:04:39,479 --> 04:04:45,719
stuff works. Like You've got celebrities on the left and

3970
04:04:45,799 --> 04:04:48,239
right and in the middle that are promoting this kind

3971
04:04:48,280 --> 04:04:51,840
of stuff like Beyond Meat. I don't know where you

3972
04:04:51,840 --> 04:04:56,680
would put vitallic the ethereum guy on the spectrum, but

3973
04:04:56,760 --> 04:05:00,280
you know, he tweeted a picture of himself eating they're

3974
04:05:00,319 --> 04:05:06,959
protein bites made out of crickets and so like. Unfortunately,

3975
04:05:07,000 --> 04:05:09,280
at some point in the future, like this stuff is

3976
04:05:09,319 --> 04:05:12,399
going to be pushed on more and more people, regardless

3977
04:05:12,440 --> 04:05:16,239
of the cost, because they believe in it. I think

3978
04:05:16,239 --> 04:05:20,600
you can't discount that the power of belief. And I

3979
04:05:20,680 --> 04:05:22,520
always try to make it a point to say, like, look,

3980
04:05:22,559 --> 04:05:24,799
there are two people in the world, cynics and ideologues.

3981
04:05:25,600 --> 04:05:27,440
Synics do it for the money. Idiologs do it because

3982
04:05:27,440 --> 04:05:31,040
they really believe it, and oftentimes they work together because

3983
04:05:31,799 --> 04:05:33,399
what they want to do in the direction they want

3984
04:05:33,440 --> 04:05:40,040
to go overlaps. And I think the ideology part helps

3985
04:05:40,079 --> 04:05:44,360
to explain why go woke, go broke just doesn't work,

3986
04:05:44,479 --> 04:05:46,879
like they are willing to lose this money. There's this

3987
04:05:47,520 --> 04:05:49,319
quote I think it was I read it in Breitbart.

3988
04:05:49,319 --> 04:05:51,639
I don't know where it's originally from, but it was

3989
04:05:52,159 --> 04:05:55,120
some market some marketing big way from Nike, who was

3990
04:05:55,159 --> 04:05:59,319
talking about the losses that Nike had posted after Nike

3991
04:05:59,479 --> 04:06:02,399
went woke and you know, make colon colon Kaepernick, it's

3992
04:06:02,399 --> 04:06:06,079
poster boy. And this marketing guy just said, well, we're

3993
04:06:06,120 --> 04:06:08,719
not worried about it because we don't think that, you know,

3994
04:06:08,760 --> 04:06:13,159
the future of Nike is old white guys, old angry

3995
04:06:13,159 --> 04:06:17,280
white guys. And so basically they're willing to lose millions

3996
04:06:17,280 --> 04:06:19,760
of dollars because they think in the long run they're

3997
04:06:19,799 --> 04:06:24,520
going to win because they believe in this stuff. And

3998
04:06:24,680 --> 04:06:28,000
I mean, yeah, so I think it's important to basically

3999
04:06:28,000 --> 04:06:30,520
get that out of your head. Like the cavalry is

4000
04:06:30,559 --> 04:06:33,319
not going to come like no one's the market is

4001
04:06:33,360 --> 04:06:35,360
not going to save you. The invincible hand is not

4002
04:06:35,399 --> 04:06:37,520
going to come down and crush beyond me. Like, it's

4003
04:06:37,520 --> 04:06:39,520
just not going to happen. You have to do things

4004
04:06:39,520 --> 04:06:41,239
that you have to figure out how to do these

4005
04:06:41,280 --> 04:06:41,920
things yourself.

4006
04:06:43,680 --> 04:06:48,000
Speaker 1: And there is the chance that if people start abandoning

4007
04:06:48,079 --> 04:06:53,120
Nike left and right and go to New Balance, maybe

4008
04:06:53,120 --> 04:06:56,280
a Larry Finkin or some of his friends decide to

4009
04:06:56,360 --> 04:06:57,479
wage war on New Balance.

4010
04:06:58,159 --> 04:06:59,840
Speaker 3: Yeah that's right, New Balance. Yeah.

4011
04:07:00,159 --> 04:07:05,920
Speaker 1: So yeah, capitalism, Yeah, that's what we have. Yeah, what wonderful?

4012
04:07:06,319 --> 04:07:06,719
Speaker 2: All right.

4013
04:07:08,399 --> 04:07:11,239
Speaker 1: Most of this attempted engineering of consent by the therapeutic

4014
04:07:11,319 --> 04:07:15,200
regime serves the purpose of identifying Schmidtian friends and enemies.

4015
04:07:16,000 --> 04:07:18,479
The list of enemy terms which serve to expel you

4016
04:07:18,520 --> 04:07:25,639
from employment and society at large continues to expand. Sexist, racist, homophobe, transphobe,

4017
04:07:25,639 --> 04:07:29,520
client deny, are, unvaccinated, and so on. These are all

4018
04:07:29,600 --> 04:07:35,360
markers of ideological impurity which serve to dehumanize. Ideologically conscripted

4019
04:07:35,440 --> 04:07:39,159
armies tended more and more to demonize their targets. Those

4020
04:07:39,200 --> 04:07:43,079
who resisted the ideal embodied by one's nation were no

4021
04:07:43,159 --> 04:07:46,319
longer viewed as human in thinking, in thinking, or in fact.

4022
04:07:48,159 --> 04:07:52,159
In the twentieth century, this resulted in catastrophic total wars

4023
04:07:52,200 --> 04:07:56,040
between managerial states. After the collapse of the Soviet Union,

4024
04:07:56,159 --> 04:08:00,239
the USA, under the neo conservatives continue to crusade to

4025
04:08:00,280 --> 04:08:03,440
spread liberal democracy to all parts of the world and

4026
04:08:03,479 --> 04:08:07,799
to dissolve any vestiges of outmoded tradition with a missionary zeal.

4027
04:08:09,319 --> 04:08:12,760
As these efforts were frustrated, and as populations evermore started

4028
04:08:12,799 --> 04:08:16,799
to turn against such poormongering, the missionary zeal turned inwards,

4029
04:08:17,600 --> 04:08:20,440
where in the nineteen nineties and two thousands, so many

4030
04:08:20,479 --> 04:08:26,440
airsats Hitler's resided in Serbia, Iraq, Iran, North Korea, and

4031
04:08:26,479 --> 04:08:29,239
so on. In the twenty twenties, they are at home

4032
04:08:29,799 --> 04:08:33,399
not simply the despise Donald Trump, but also his supporters

4033
04:08:33,719 --> 04:08:36,120
and now people who refuse to submit to the prescribed

4034
04:08:36,159 --> 04:08:40,559
remedies of the COVID nineteen pandemic. In time, it will

4035
04:08:40,559 --> 04:08:43,520
no doubt encompass meat eaters, people who wish to drive

4036
04:08:43,559 --> 04:08:47,760
petrol fueled cars, and so on. The question remains whether

4037
04:08:47,840 --> 04:08:51,319
society can function while around thirty percent of the productive

4038
04:08:51,360 --> 04:08:55,879
population are demonized and dehumanized in this way. This has

4039
04:08:55,920 --> 04:08:59,239
never been achieved in history by any ruling class. Stalin

4040
04:08:59,280 --> 04:09:02,639
and other subjects Tator simply opted to eliminate their enemies.

4041
04:09:02,399 --> 04:09:03,239
Speaker 2: Through brute force.

4042
04:09:03,639 --> 04:09:06,319
Speaker 1: They were willing to do so to consolidate power and control.

4043
04:09:07,120 --> 04:09:10,920
Managerial elites seem unwilling to use such force, and instead

4044
04:09:11,000 --> 04:09:16,280
must rely on increasingly transparent games of perception management. At

4045
04:09:16,360 --> 04:09:20,040
least by the estimation of gar Woods, speaker at the

4046
04:09:20,079 --> 04:09:23,799
World Economic Forum in November twenty twenty one, our current

4047
04:09:23,879 --> 04:09:27,159
ruling elites seem to be aware of their own unpopularity

4048
04:09:28,360 --> 04:09:31,920
at an at an event called the Great Narrative, she

4049
04:09:32,120 --> 04:09:36,520
said at Davos a few years ago, the Edelman Survey

4050
04:09:36,639 --> 04:09:40,239
showed us that The good news is the elite across

4051
04:09:40,280 --> 04:09:43,079
the world trust each other more and more, so we

4052
04:09:43,120 --> 04:09:46,200
can come together and design and do beautiful things together.

4053
04:09:46,680 --> 04:09:49,200
The bad news is that in every single country they

4054
04:09:49,200 --> 04:09:52,559
were pulling, the majority of people trusted the elite less.

4055
04:09:52,760 --> 04:09:54,920
Of course they have to come together. They see the

4056
04:09:55,000 --> 04:09:55,799
writing on the wall.

4057
04:10:00,000 --> 04:10:04,440
Speaker 3: I mean again, it's importantly, they're not deterred by it.

4058
04:10:04,639 --> 04:10:07,399
They like they're they're confident that ultimately they're going to win.

4059
04:10:07,680 --> 04:10:11,159
They've got the resources, they've got the brains, and then

4060
04:10:11,280 --> 04:10:13,360
they're not really experiencing any push But I mean, the

4061
04:10:13,399 --> 04:10:18,239
only this is like the the thing that's difficult to discuss,

4062
04:10:18,360 --> 04:10:20,680
especially in the United States today, is like the only

4063
04:10:20,760 --> 04:10:25,159
people that are really kind of pushing back on these

4064
04:10:25,719 --> 04:10:29,799
Western liberal eat the bug elites are countries like Russia

4065
04:10:30,479 --> 04:10:35,159
and maybe even China, right, And I think it it

4066
04:10:35,239 --> 04:10:40,520
is a very strange position to be in. And maybe

4067
04:10:40,600 --> 04:10:44,799
I think this also contributes to the establishment's fear of

4068
04:10:44,879 --> 04:10:51,319
figures like Donald Trump and obviously Victor Orbin because they

4069
04:10:51,520 --> 04:10:55,360
represent i mean, setting aside like Russian and China, Guys

4070
04:10:55,399 --> 04:10:58,600
like Orbon and Trump represent the possibility of of of

4071
04:10:58,760 --> 04:11:03,520
an alternative. So yeah, yeah, I mean this this is

4072
04:11:05,040 --> 04:11:07,520
something that's been on my mind a lot because I

4073
04:11:07,520 --> 04:11:11,639
had a conversation with my friend who's German, and you know,

4074
04:11:11,680 --> 04:11:14,680
he grew up his whole life hating Russia, and his

4075
04:11:15,040 --> 04:11:19,280
family hates Russia to this day and and and he

4076
04:11:19,399 --> 04:11:22,719
just told me, like I He's like, he's not a

4077
04:11:22,760 --> 04:11:25,600
Russell phile, and neither am I. But he basically just said,

4078
04:11:25,680 --> 04:11:30,719
like I can't help but think that that somehow, like

4079
04:11:30,799 --> 04:11:34,319
the West is on the wrong side of history here

4080
04:11:34,399 --> 04:11:36,040
one ironically, and that's not to say that Russia is

4081
04:11:36,040 --> 04:11:38,079
on the right side, but basically, like it was like

4082
04:11:38,120 --> 04:11:41,559
he was trying to understand why he felt like he

4083
04:11:41,600 --> 04:11:46,360
had a stake in Russia not losing this war in Ukraine,

4084
04:11:47,639 --> 04:11:50,280
and he like, I mean, he was like tortured trying

4085
04:11:50,280 --> 04:11:52,159
to explain this to me, right, because it goes against

4086
04:11:52,200 --> 04:11:54,559
everything he believes. But he's just saying, like, I feel

4087
04:11:54,600 --> 04:11:58,079
like the same people that want to crush Russia are

4088
04:11:58,120 --> 04:12:00,959
the ones that want to crush me. And and it

4089
04:12:01,120 --> 04:12:05,680
just it was really interesting, this this talk that we had,

4090
04:12:05,719 --> 04:12:07,719
and it's been on my mind a lot, because again,

4091
04:12:07,760 --> 04:12:10,280
this is someone who hates Russia. He would never live there.

4092
04:12:10,280 --> 04:12:14,079
He doesn't like Putin. He like I said, he was

4093
04:12:14,200 --> 04:12:17,040
raised hating Russia, but here he is saying like, I

4094
04:12:17,079 --> 04:12:19,520
feel like if they if they lose, somehow I do too.

4095
04:12:20,600 --> 04:12:23,040
But he's also not rooting for Russia. Obviously, I mean this.

4096
04:12:23,159 --> 04:12:25,360
I think this is actually on a lot of people's minds.

4097
04:12:25,639 --> 04:12:28,920
But obviously it's just not something that you could openly

4098
04:12:28,959 --> 04:12:32,840
discuss with most people because they just wouldn't understand it.

4099
04:12:33,680 --> 04:12:38,680
But I think there's a non insignificant part of the

4100
04:12:38,680 --> 04:12:40,399
population that kind of feels this way.

4101
04:12:41,239 --> 04:12:45,120
Speaker 1: So even myself, I'm of the age where I grew

4102
04:12:45,200 --> 04:12:48,440
up during the Cold War and that was our enemy.

4103
04:12:49,079 --> 04:12:51,440
And now I'm looking. Now I'm looking, and I'm like,

4104
04:12:51,680 --> 04:12:54,639
you know, I hear Putin give speeches, you know, to

4105
04:12:54,719 --> 04:13:01,079
crying Stalinism, to crying Marxism, and to crying the West,

4106
04:13:01,959 --> 04:13:05,479
and I'm like, all right, I'm not supposed to like

4107
04:13:05,559 --> 04:13:11,719
this guy. But basically, the way he talks about this regime,

4108
04:13:12,760 --> 04:13:16,239
he would be one of the people that Paul talks

4109
04:13:16,280 --> 04:13:20,319
about who is targeted if he lived here and he

4110
04:13:20,399 --> 04:13:21,079
was American.

4111
04:13:22,239 --> 04:13:26,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you have to remember that, at least initially,

4112
04:13:26,600 --> 04:13:30,520
Trump had talked about normalizing relations with Russia. Yes, and

4113
04:13:30,559 --> 04:13:32,879
that was a huge it was I think that was

4114
04:13:32,920 --> 04:13:36,360
a huge factor in the establishment's hate for him. Yes,

4115
04:13:36,680 --> 04:13:40,600
because again it represents the possibility of of a of

4116
04:13:40,639 --> 04:13:48,360
a different world order, right, a different political consensus. And yeah,

4117
04:13:48,479 --> 04:13:50,879
I mean again, this is something that you simply don't

4118
04:13:50,879 --> 04:13:53,879
really here discussed in the West, or at least in

4119
04:13:53,920 --> 04:13:57,360
the United States, because of the of the consensus that's

4120
04:13:57,360 --> 04:14:00,520
emerged on this. I mean maybe in other places Hungary

4121
04:14:00,719 --> 04:14:03,120
you hear it more often, but I mean, yeah, I

4122
04:14:03,159 --> 04:14:08,600
think the I mean, the consensus is like it's overpowering

4123
04:14:08,639 --> 04:14:14,760
at least from the from the institutions of elite opinion making, right.

4124
04:14:15,319 --> 04:14:17,760
But yeah, it's an interesting point.

4125
04:14:19,120 --> 04:14:22,799
Speaker 1: We got one paragraph left here. The World Economic Forums

4126
04:14:22,879 --> 04:14:27,440
Global Risks Report for twenty twenty two lists social cohesion

4127
04:14:28,159 --> 04:14:31,239
as a major concern and notes that a recent poll

4128
04:14:31,280 --> 04:14:33,719
in the United States, for example, found division in the

4129
04:14:33,760 --> 04:14:37,840
country to be voters' top concern. They expected it to

4130
04:14:37,840 --> 04:14:41,760
worsen in twenty twenty two. While Gottfried in two thousand

4131
04:14:41,760 --> 04:14:44,920
and two was unwilling to predict their ultimate demise. It

4132
04:14:45,000 --> 04:14:47,399
seems to me that unless the current ruling class is

4133
04:14:47,440 --> 04:14:51,280
prepared to become openly coercive and use force. It will

4134
04:14:51,280 --> 04:14:54,840
be overthrown once country elites become organized enough to do

4135
04:14:54,920 --> 04:15:00,239
so in every region and locality. You want to what's

4136
04:15:00,280 --> 04:15:05,159
your opinion on that, because I mean, that's probably probably

4137
04:15:05,200 --> 04:15:12,840
the most controversial is we're soon these people are going

4138
04:15:12,879 --> 04:15:16,959
to be overthrown, and so many people just can't see it.

4139
04:15:17,479 --> 04:15:18,799
Speaker 3: Well, I don't. He doesn't say soon.

4140
04:15:19,520 --> 04:15:20,840
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, he doesn't say.

4141
04:15:20,680 --> 04:15:27,159
Speaker 3: It's it's also an if, it seems to me, which

4142
04:15:27,200 --> 04:15:31,040
is is another way of saying if if these if

4143
04:15:31,079 --> 04:15:36,559
the current ruling class you know, doesn't change its approach,

4144
04:15:37,559 --> 04:15:39,280
it will be overthrown. So I think there's there's it's

4145
04:15:39,280 --> 04:15:43,319
obvious some contingent on certain things happening right and falling

4146
04:15:43,319 --> 04:15:48,760
into alignment. I don't know. I'm not really at black pilled,

4147
04:15:49,399 --> 04:15:52,520
so to speak. I don't. I don't think that it's

4148
04:15:53,040 --> 04:15:57,600
I don't think that their victory is inevitable. I think

4149
04:15:57,639 --> 04:16:01,799
that this is I made a thread about this recently,

4150
04:16:01,840 --> 04:16:05,079
and I it was well received, but I also got

4151
04:16:05,079 --> 04:16:07,600
a lot of hate for it. And basically what I

4152
04:16:07,639 --> 04:16:11,399
was saying is that the people who I think are

4153
04:16:11,760 --> 04:16:17,520
actually radical, who are on the dissident right, and for me,

4154
04:16:17,600 --> 04:16:21,479
the dissident right was like I you know, probably starting

4155
04:16:21,479 --> 04:16:24,000
in twenty sixteen, started to kind of get introduced to,

4156
04:16:24,239 --> 04:16:28,319
you know, like the radical right and like reading guys

4157
04:16:28,360 --> 04:16:31,959
like Buchanan and Gottfried and San Francis, and so that

4158
04:16:32,079 --> 04:16:35,360
was a dissident right for me, basically like the paleo

4159
04:16:35,399 --> 04:16:39,200
conservative authors because they are which is separate from like

4160
04:16:39,239 --> 04:16:41,680
the online right. This gets confusing really fast, but the

4161
04:16:41,680 --> 04:16:44,639
point that I was making was that like basically the

4162
04:16:45,719 --> 04:16:49,440
dissident right, the radical right, has attained a kind of

4163
04:16:49,639 --> 04:16:53,200
purchase in the mainstream. What I mean by that is

4164
04:16:53,200 --> 04:16:56,959
that you have some people and institutions in the mainstream

4165
04:16:56,959 --> 04:17:00,760
that have kind of like have buy in to the

4166
04:17:00,799 --> 04:17:04,120
ideas the dissioned right. Like you've got people who are

4167
04:17:04,120 --> 04:17:07,799
totally mainstream basically saying the same things that only the

4168
04:17:07,799 --> 04:17:10,879
dissident right was saying a few years ago, like immigration moratorium,

4169
04:17:11,120 --> 04:17:15,239
dismantle the FBI, you know, basically like decapitate government leadership.

4170
04:17:15,280 --> 04:17:18,079
I don't mean literally, I mean like mass firings and

4171
04:17:18,120 --> 04:17:20,920
things like that, which you know is something that like

4172
04:17:21,559 --> 04:17:25,040
that you're hearing about now, Like Axios did that story

4173
04:17:25,040 --> 04:17:27,239
about how the trumpministration is going to like fire a

4174
04:17:27,280 --> 04:17:29,319
bunch of people and staff them with loyalists and stuff

4175
04:17:29,319 --> 04:17:31,799
like that. Like the fact that these ideas are becoming

4176
04:17:31,840 --> 04:17:36,000
mainstream means that like, like, like I said, the DR

4177
04:17:36,200 --> 04:17:39,760
has a kind of buying on some level. And what

4178
04:17:39,760 --> 04:17:42,120
the dissident right has done for a long time is

4179
04:17:42,120 --> 04:17:46,120
is basically just kind of point out problems and basically

4180
04:17:46,200 --> 04:17:49,520
notice patterns and things like that, things that like no

4181
04:17:49,559 --> 04:17:52,280
one else is willing to notice. And my thread was

4182
04:17:52,319 --> 04:17:55,000
basically saying, like we can still continue doing those things

4183
04:17:55,159 --> 04:17:58,120
and noting these problems, you know, like like the Proud

4184
04:17:58,120 --> 04:18:01,360
Boys were crushed by the feds. Antifa, which is far

4185
04:18:01,399 --> 04:18:04,760
more violent, you know, can openly do armed patrols in

4186
04:18:04,799 --> 04:18:08,799
like Red Texas like that. That's a problem that no

4187
04:18:08,840 --> 04:18:11,600
one is really talking about. So then, but the next

4188
04:18:11,600 --> 04:18:13,559
thing that we have to do is actually figure out

4189
04:18:13,959 --> 04:18:17,239
how to come up with actionable solutions to these things.

4190
04:18:17,239 --> 04:18:21,280
You know, how how could states actually repress Antifa and

4191
04:18:21,399 --> 04:18:24,239
make it so these people cannot publicly organize? You know,

4192
04:18:24,280 --> 04:18:29,239
how how could you how could you prevent institutions from

4193
04:18:29,360 --> 04:18:35,479
forcing or normalizing transgenderism in society and the like I've

4194
04:18:35,479 --> 04:18:38,120
been accused of being like a Rhonda Santi Shill. I'm

4195
04:18:38,200 --> 04:18:41,040
just but what the reason I talk about him and

4196
04:18:41,079 --> 04:18:42,600
write about him so much is because I see a

4197
04:18:42,639 --> 04:18:46,479
governor that's actually using power effectively. So like threatening to

4198
04:18:46,520 --> 04:18:49,959
revoke the beverage license of a place that serves alcohol

4199
04:18:50,280 --> 04:18:55,719
where you have transgender like strippers, you know, prancing around

4200
04:18:55,719 --> 04:18:58,120
in front of little kids. It's like, okay, you want

4201
04:18:58,120 --> 04:18:59,719
to do that, Okay, then we'll take away your beverage

4202
04:18:59,719 --> 04:19:02,719
license and effectively destroy the business. Like I think that's

4203
04:19:02,760 --> 04:19:04,719
the kind of stuff that we should be thinking about

4204
04:19:04,920 --> 04:19:08,319
and actually implementing, not just like writing, you know, based

4205
04:19:08,799 --> 04:19:12,040
basically kind of statement legislation, which Republicans do this whole time.

4206
04:19:12,079 --> 04:19:15,120
Like here's my draft of this piece of legislation that's

4207
04:19:15,120 --> 04:19:17,520
never going to go anywhere, for like term limits, Like

4208
04:19:17,559 --> 04:19:19,920
we don't actually have to play that game. Like we

4209
04:19:20,000 --> 04:19:23,079
have governors, you know, we have people. We already have

4210
04:19:23,159 --> 04:19:25,600
people in positions of power, and as we get more

4211
04:19:25,639 --> 04:19:27,680
of them in positions of power, how can we actually

4212
04:19:27,760 --> 04:19:30,959
do these things in a way that is consistent with

4213
04:19:31,000 --> 04:19:33,760
what Parbini is describing. And that's kind of what I'm

4214
04:19:34,040 --> 04:19:39,600
really interested in focused in now, is is actually organizing

4215
04:19:40,040 --> 04:19:45,200
and going beyond the pattern recognition, problem recognition part and

4216
04:19:45,239 --> 04:19:48,959
then actually starting to implement solutions.

4217
04:19:49,000 --> 04:19:49,159
Speaker 5: You know.

4218
04:19:49,600 --> 04:19:52,280
Speaker 3: The other example that I use for DeSantis is his

4219
04:19:52,319 --> 04:19:55,280
whole thing with Disney, just basically stripping them of their

4220
04:19:55,319 --> 04:19:59,479
special tax privileges in Florida for taking the side of

4221
04:19:59,520 --> 04:20:05,840
transgender against the against the uh not only what the

4222
04:20:05,879 --> 04:20:08,239
governor wanted to do, but also what like normal people

4223
04:20:08,360 --> 04:20:13,319
in Florida want, which is, uh, you know, getting transgenderism

4224
04:20:13,319 --> 04:20:14,079
out of schools.

4225
04:20:14,920 --> 04:20:19,840
Speaker 1: So yeah, one thing though that the right needs is

4226
04:20:21,280 --> 04:20:23,440
they need to change their minds. They really have to

4227
04:20:23,479 --> 04:20:26,479
start embracing the fact that there's power out there and

4228
04:20:26,520 --> 04:20:27,319
they need to use it.

4229
04:20:28,040 --> 04:20:30,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, no, I agree.

4230
04:20:30,840 --> 04:20:31,159
Speaker 2: Yeah.

4231
04:20:31,200 --> 04:20:34,360
Speaker 1: Historically it's just get in there, we'll tweak a little bit,

4232
04:20:34,360 --> 04:20:38,440
and all they end up doing is basically continuing the regime.

4233
04:20:38,600 --> 04:20:43,000
Speaker 3: So there's a great example of this last thing I

4234
04:20:43,040 --> 04:20:46,040
said is we're both doing out of time. But the

4235
04:20:46,040 --> 04:20:47,959
there's a guy named Mark Elias and he's like a

4236
04:20:47,959 --> 04:20:51,719
Democrat election lawyer, and he's he's really a kind of

4237
04:20:51,840 --> 04:20:57,000
legal field marshal. This guy oversaw an army of lawyers

4238
04:20:57,680 --> 04:21:02,920
that was respond for something like two hundred pre election

4239
04:21:03,120 --> 04:21:08,280
lawsuits that basically made it easier for Democrats to win

4240
04:21:08,360 --> 04:21:12,079
in key states by removing restrictions on things like mail

4241
04:21:12,120 --> 04:21:15,959
and voting and absentee ballots. And so that was before

4242
04:21:15,959 --> 04:21:18,680
the election, right, And like this is the other thing too,

4243
04:21:18,760 --> 04:21:22,559
for conservatives who understand them me, because they don't have power,

4244
04:21:22,600 --> 04:21:25,079
they kind of like they look towards like, you know,

4245
04:21:25,159 --> 04:21:29,040
kind of incredible explanations for why things didn't go their way,

4246
04:21:29,159 --> 04:21:32,040
like dominion or something like that, right, like the like

4247
04:21:32,600 --> 04:21:35,520
servers in Germany and like shootouts in Spain and stuff

4248
04:21:35,559 --> 04:21:39,079
like that. Actually it's guys like Mark Elias who are

4249
04:21:39,159 --> 04:21:46,040
secretly like waging lawfare and like changing election laws in

4250
04:21:46,079 --> 04:21:49,639
your states without you ever knowing about it. Right, And

4251
04:21:49,840 --> 04:21:52,000
so that was before the election. And then after the election,

4252
04:21:52,120 --> 04:21:55,360
Elias led an army of lawyers that successfully thwarted like

4253
04:21:55,440 --> 04:21:59,360
sixty four attempts by Trump's legal team to investigate election

4254
04:21:59,440 --> 04:22:03,200
irregular We where is our Mark Ollias on the right?

4255
04:22:03,680 --> 04:22:06,079
Why don't we have someone like and like it's funny,

4256
04:22:06,079 --> 04:22:08,559
I've made this point to people who are conservatives and like, well,

4257
04:22:08,600 --> 04:22:11,879
Mark Ollias is a sleeze bag. He's ruthless, And I'm like, yeah,

4258
04:22:12,000 --> 04:22:15,719
so where's my sleeze bag, ruthless right winger, you know,

4259
04:22:16,280 --> 04:22:21,360
who's extremely competent. And I think that's it's funny because

4260
04:22:21,479 --> 04:22:24,319
no one, although the initial reaction people is always kind

4261
04:22:24,360 --> 04:22:26,280
of like, oh, that guy's a dirt bag. Once I

4262
04:22:26,360 --> 04:22:30,680
explain like yeah, but he's effective, no one has disagreed

4263
04:22:30,719 --> 04:22:33,319
with me, like yeah, actually we do need people like

4264
04:22:33,399 --> 04:22:37,159
Mark Olias, these people who are just totally ruthless, you know,

4265
04:22:37,200 --> 04:22:39,440
stone cold killers, just.

4266
04:22:39,559 --> 04:22:42,600
Speaker 1: Being being content with having a seat at the table

4267
04:22:43,319 --> 04:22:45,360
that just has to go out the window. I mean,

4268
04:22:45,399 --> 04:22:50,719
it's I mean, I can't even know anymore. Plug what

4269
04:22:50,799 --> 04:22:52,120
you want to plug and wind this. I know, we

4270
04:22:52,159 --> 04:22:53,200
gotta we gotta go.

4271
04:22:54,120 --> 04:22:56,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, well you can. You can read my column three

4272
04:22:56,479 --> 04:22:59,600
of a Partisan at Chroniclesmagazine dot org. And then I've

4273
04:22:59,600 --> 04:23:03,120
got my substack at contrad out substack dot com and

4274
04:23:03,200 --> 04:23:07,440
my Twitter actually I'm on Twitter, getter gab and other

4275
04:23:07,559 --> 04:23:11,040
places under the same handle. In meriticus, E M E

4276
04:23:11,159 --> 04:23:13,159
R I T I C U S. I think earlier

4277
04:23:13,200 --> 04:23:15,479
I said psychiatry in the nineteenth century. If I did,

4278
04:23:15,479 --> 04:23:20,200
that was a mistake, Paul. And the point about psychiatry

4279
04:23:20,200 --> 04:23:23,559
is in the twentieth century, with the progressives so I

4280
04:23:23,639 --> 04:23:25,559
just wanted to. I was thinking about that and I

4281
04:23:25,600 --> 04:23:29,360
was like, no, psychiatry wasn't a thing like at the.

4282
04:23:29,319 --> 04:23:32,680
Speaker 1: Time it was for Freud, early twentieth century.

4283
04:23:33,040 --> 04:23:36,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. I appreciate it. All talks about. Yeah,

4284
04:23:36,760 --> 04:23:38,719
I're getting all thanks.

4285
04:23:40,760 --> 04:23:43,319
Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Pecanona Show

4286
04:23:44,680 --> 04:23:48,040
for chapter ten, the very last chapter. I'm here with

4287
04:23:48,159 --> 04:23:50,879
Charlot Magne. How are you doing, Charlie very well?

4288
04:23:50,920 --> 04:23:51,239
Speaker 2: Thank you?

4289
04:23:52,280 --> 04:23:55,719
Speaker 1: And Ryan turnip Seed. First time on the show, even

4290
04:23:55,760 --> 04:23:58,559
though we've hung out in real life a couple of times.

4291
04:23:58,879 --> 04:23:59,879
Speaker 2: So how's it going.

4292
04:24:00,719 --> 04:24:02,399
Speaker 7: It's going very well. How are you, sir?

4293
04:24:03,159 --> 04:24:06,280
Speaker 1: Doing good? Doing good? Why don't I just throw this

4294
04:24:06,479 --> 04:24:08,959
chapter ten up since this is basically a summary and

4295
04:24:09,000 --> 04:24:10,719
it's going to take less than five minutes, and then

4296
04:24:10,719 --> 04:24:15,239
we're going to have a discussion of an overview of

4297
04:24:15,280 --> 04:24:18,879
the book after that, So let me share this real quick.

4298
04:24:21,600 --> 04:24:23,639
All right, I'm going to start reading like I've been

4299
04:24:23,639 --> 04:24:26,920
doing that through this whole thing. Anybody either of you

4300
04:24:26,959 --> 04:24:30,479
wants to stop me and comment, I don't care if

4301
04:24:30,479 --> 04:24:33,600
it's mid sentence, just do it. Feel free, all right?

4302
04:24:33,920 --> 04:24:39,559
Start reading now? Chapter ten conclusion, the thesis of this

4303
04:24:39,600 --> 04:24:42,680
book has been that democracy is and always has been,

4304
04:24:42,799 --> 04:24:46,600
an illusion in which the true functioning of power, where

4305
04:24:46,639 --> 04:24:51,440
an organized minority elite rule over a disorganized mass, is

4306
04:24:51,479 --> 04:24:56,639
obscured through a lie that the people is sovereign. I've

4307
04:24:56,680 --> 04:24:59,840
called this the populist delusion because of the power of

4308
04:25:00,000 --> 04:25:03,840
the other lies that this central lie conceals, chiefly the

4309
04:25:03,879 --> 04:25:07,559
myth of bottom up power or people power, and the

4310
04:25:07,719 --> 04:25:13,000
entirely inaccurate view of history this lie creates. There is

4311
04:25:13,040 --> 04:25:17,360
never a substitute for the tightly organized minority. This fact,

4312
04:25:17,559 --> 04:25:20,959
Mosca's law is the key lesson of the Italian elite

4313
04:25:21,000 --> 04:25:26,360
theorists Gaetano Moscavilfredo Pareto, and Robert Michel's. I believe that

4314
04:25:26,440 --> 04:25:29,440
the outbreak of populism in Europe and America that started

4315
04:25:29,479 --> 04:25:33,280
in twenty fifteen was significantly stemied due to a view

4316
04:25:33,360 --> 04:25:36,799
of power and the functioning of Western systems that was

4317
04:25:36,879 --> 04:25:39,760
wholly wrong, which is to say that the people who

4318
04:25:39,799 --> 04:25:43,959
made up those populist movements believed rearticulations of a false

4319
04:25:44,000 --> 04:25:47,360
political formula that they were taught in their Civics or

4320
04:25:47,440 --> 04:25:51,600
history classes at school. I think I'd go a step

4321
04:25:51,639 --> 04:25:54,479
further than that. I would say that the leadership, the

4322
04:25:55,120 --> 04:25:58,680
people who presented themselves as to populist leaders, the Trumps,

4323
04:25:58,959 --> 04:26:03,440
the or Bonds of the world world, they just they

4324
04:26:03,479 --> 04:26:06,239
actually believe in democracy.

4325
04:26:05,719 --> 04:26:05,879
Speaker 2: So.

4326
04:26:08,479 --> 04:26:10,920
Speaker 1: They're not going to be able to get anything done

4327
04:26:11,040 --> 04:26:13,440
within the system the way it has been, the way

4328
04:26:13,479 --> 04:26:14,840
it has been structured.

4329
04:26:14,600 --> 04:26:18,479
Speaker 7: Right, and quite expressly so. And they also believed in

4330
04:26:18,479 --> 04:26:21,239
this sort of like meritocratic view that the system worked,

4331
04:26:21,360 --> 04:26:24,319
which is why Trump hired people that were absolutely disloyal

4332
04:26:24,399 --> 04:26:28,719
to him but appeared to have the expert qualifications. You know,

4333
04:26:28,760 --> 04:26:31,879
It's why staffed his foreign policy side of things with

4334
04:26:31,959 --> 04:26:36,000
warhawks and complete backstabbing neo cons because they looked on

4335
04:26:36,079 --> 04:26:39,280
paper the most qualified, but they were not the most loyal,

4336
04:26:39,319 --> 04:26:43,559
and that's not how this stuff works fundamentally, right.

4337
04:26:43,799 --> 04:26:49,360
Speaker 8: It was clear that, you know, as mister Pravini wrote

4338
04:26:49,399 --> 04:26:53,040
in the book, very few presidents have actually achieved sovereignty,

4339
04:26:53,680 --> 04:26:56,959
one of the few being FDR. And it was clear

4340
04:26:57,040 --> 04:26:59,799
that President Trump believed that he would in fact have

4341
04:27:00,479 --> 04:27:03,879
sovereignty merely by winning the election, which was definitely not true.

4342
04:27:03,879 --> 04:27:10,280
And that fundamental misunderstanding is really what destroyed his presidency

4343
04:27:10,799 --> 04:27:14,200
more than the fact that his supporters believe that because

4344
04:27:14,200 --> 04:27:17,440
even if his supporters had believed that myth, as is

4345
04:27:17,440 --> 04:27:20,799
made clear in the book, if the president understood that

4346
04:27:20,840 --> 04:27:24,000
he was not sovereign merely by winning an election, things

4347
04:27:24,000 --> 04:27:24,799
would have been different.

4348
04:27:26,520 --> 04:27:30,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, Moving on the myth of social change

4349
04:27:30,719 --> 04:27:34,719
being a bottom up phenomenon pervades our culture and thinking

4350
04:27:35,399 --> 04:27:39,159
it is the essential fiction of the nineteen sixties counter

4351
04:27:39,319 --> 04:27:44,520
culture and the worldview of the baby boomers. Whereas AA

4352
04:27:44,559 --> 04:27:48,360
would put it, it's just Boomer truth regime. And as

4353
04:27:48,680 --> 04:27:51,040
as soon as we can destroy that, the better. Sooner

4354
04:27:51,040 --> 04:27:54,280
we can destroy that, the better it is worth returning

4355
04:27:54,319 --> 04:27:57,319
to the four myths of liberalism that helped to perpetuate

4356
04:27:57,399 --> 04:28:02,280
this worldview, myth of the stateless society, that state and

4357
04:28:02,399 --> 04:28:06,719
society were or could ever be separate. Do you have

4358
04:28:06,760 --> 04:28:07,920
any problem with that, Charlie.

4359
04:28:11,040 --> 04:28:11,159
Speaker 2: No.

4360
04:28:11,280 --> 04:28:15,360
Speaker 8: And this actually sort of leads into while I was

4361
04:28:15,360 --> 04:28:18,840
planning on offering some criticisms of anarchism. I know we

4362
04:28:18,879 --> 04:28:22,319
still have a few libertarians or anarchists in our mysts,

4363
04:28:22,360 --> 04:28:25,920
and including mister Carson, you know, who I respect greatly.

4364
04:28:26,079 --> 04:28:30,600
But to me, that the ideal of trying to separate

4365
04:28:30,639 --> 04:28:33,920
the state from society or any of these other factors,

4366
04:28:34,200 --> 04:28:38,000
like the economy. As you're about to read, it just

4367
04:28:38,040 --> 04:28:41,879
doesn't make sense as a goal or ideal. I mean,

4368
04:28:41,920 --> 04:28:46,559
I understand the anarchist or libertarian impulse towards freedom, and

4369
04:28:46,600 --> 04:28:51,920
of course that's a totally reasonable concept for an American

4370
04:28:51,920 --> 04:28:55,000
to pursue. But I think strictly speaking, the idea of

4371
04:28:55,639 --> 04:28:59,559
anarchy is a bad idea that ideal to hold in

4372
04:28:59,600 --> 04:29:04,959
your head, simply because it's completely impossible politically like it,

4373
04:29:05,600 --> 04:29:10,760
having ideals that aren't achievable by man in a religious

4374
04:29:10,799 --> 04:29:15,239
sense is fine, like the idea of Christianity. No one

4375
04:29:15,280 --> 04:29:18,559
can be perfect like Christ, right, But in terms of

4376
04:29:18,559 --> 04:29:23,719
our political, or economic or social ideals, they should, I believe,

4377
04:29:23,760 --> 04:29:28,399
be rooted in something that's actually achievable. I don't want

4378
04:29:28,440 --> 04:29:30,079
to jump the gun here too terribly.

4379
04:29:30,239 --> 04:29:32,559
Speaker 1: Well, let me then, let me let me finish read

4380
04:29:32,600 --> 04:29:34,200
in the four and then I'll let you I'll let

4381
04:29:34,239 --> 04:29:36,520
you jump in. Yeah, okay, so I'll read one again.

4382
04:29:36,840 --> 04:29:39,479
Myth of the stateless society, that state and society were

4383
04:29:39,680 --> 04:29:42,719
or could ever be separate. Myth of the neutral state,

4384
04:29:42,879 --> 04:29:45,959
that state and politics were or could ever be separate.

4385
04:29:46,399 --> 04:29:49,840
Myth of the free market, that state and economy were

4386
04:29:50,000 --> 04:29:53,079
or could ever be separate myth of the separation of

4387
04:29:53,159 --> 04:29:58,600
powers that competing power centers can realistically endure without converging.

4388
04:29:59,479 --> 04:30:02,360
So do you want to jump in there or do

4389
04:30:02,360 --> 04:30:03,159
you want me to keep reading?

4390
04:30:03,760 --> 04:30:07,040
Speaker 7: Yeah, I actually just very quickly. I actually was going

4391
04:30:07,079 --> 04:30:10,040
to challenge myself this time and try to defend the

4392
04:30:10,079 --> 04:30:12,719
whole or not the whole thing, but at least parts

4393
04:30:12,760 --> 04:30:16,520
of the anarchistic worldview, even though I myself don't fully

4394
04:30:16,559 --> 04:30:19,040
subscribe to it. I don't believe by any measure of

4395
04:30:19,079 --> 04:30:24,600
the measure of the belief system. But the initial things

4396
04:30:25,719 --> 04:30:28,879
I remember when this first came out and he talked

4397
04:30:28,879 --> 04:30:32,559
about the you know, four myths of liberalism before anyone

4398
04:30:32,600 --> 04:30:34,799
had really even read the book to find out what

4399
04:30:34,879 --> 04:30:38,079
exactly he meant, and he said that you can't separate

4400
04:30:38,079 --> 04:30:40,000
the state from the market, you can't separate the state

4401
04:30:40,040 --> 04:30:41,879
from society and all this other stuff. And the first

4402
04:30:41,920 --> 04:30:44,319
thing that my mind initially jumped to was sort of

4403
04:30:44,360 --> 04:30:47,760
like the enlightened absolutism. You know, the ruler cannot be

4404
04:30:47,799 --> 04:30:51,840
separated from any of the outgrowths of society, the sort

4405
04:30:51,879 --> 04:30:55,879
of a sort of Prussian system, and that's not really

4406
04:30:55,920 --> 04:30:59,000
what's being articulated here, And I was very happy because

4407
04:30:59,040 --> 04:31:03,440
of mister Parvini has done an absolutely splendid job at

4408
04:31:03,440 --> 04:31:07,639
a you know, throwing clear, concise definitions out this whole book.

4409
04:31:08,360 --> 04:31:10,239
And I think it's like, you know, right at the

4410
04:31:10,360 --> 04:31:14,079
very start of one of the chapters he defined state is,

4411
04:31:14,120 --> 04:31:17,959
you know, a minority that rules over a majority, where

4412
04:31:18,000 --> 04:31:21,760
the majority has to be ruled, you know. So it's

4413
04:31:21,760 --> 04:31:25,680
not exactly the typical definition you would get for state

4414
04:31:25,879 --> 04:31:29,399
from an anarchist or someone like that. So while it

4415
04:31:29,479 --> 04:31:32,600
is still infeasible because you're not going to get rid

4416
04:31:32,600 --> 04:31:36,600
of a class that rules over anyone else, it's not

4417
04:31:36,760 --> 04:31:39,760
exactly going fully in the other direction either. You can

4418
04:31:39,799 --> 04:31:42,479
still have great amounts of autonomy as you do see

4419
04:31:42,479 --> 04:31:47,200
in history, while still you know, repudiating these four myths.

4420
04:31:47,200 --> 04:31:49,399
Here at the end, I figured I would throw that

4421
04:31:49,440 --> 04:31:53,200
in there, just sort of as a the these things

4422
04:31:53,239 --> 04:31:57,200
are much more strict in definition than they might immediately

4423
04:31:57,239 --> 04:31:59,040
seem if you haven't read the full book.

4424
04:32:01,000 --> 04:32:03,040
Speaker 1: Well, one thing I would like to say here, because

4425
04:32:03,040 --> 04:32:08,280
we are basically talking about anarchism, and I'm on Facebook,

4426
04:32:08,319 --> 04:32:11,000
but I'm on one of those famous vacations that I

4427
04:32:11,000 --> 04:32:14,079
always get for thirty days, so I can't respond to

4428
04:32:14,879 --> 04:32:18,360
things that I see that are absolutely annoying. But one

4429
04:32:18,399 --> 04:32:23,159
of the common refrains when it comes to statism, you know,

4430
04:32:23,239 --> 04:32:28,879
the you know something that they like libertarians and anarchists

4431
04:32:28,879 --> 04:32:31,559
like to use as a pejorative other than as a

4432
04:32:31,559 --> 04:32:36,760
descriptor of somebody's beliefs. They one of the common things

4433
04:32:36,760 --> 04:32:39,719
they'll say is, oh, you need a you want to state,

4434
04:32:39,840 --> 04:32:42,920
because why do you have to use violence against peaceful people?

4435
04:32:44,280 --> 04:32:49,040
And it's a good bumper sticker. I like bumper stickers.

4436
04:32:49,959 --> 04:32:53,239
But you know, I would ask are these people peaceful?

4437
04:32:53,959 --> 04:32:58,600
Are is it general public peaceful? And I think a

4438
04:32:58,639 --> 04:33:01,120
lot of them would say, oh, they would be peaceful

4439
04:33:01,120 --> 04:33:03,600
if it wasn't for the state. So the state is

4440
04:33:03,680 --> 04:33:07,400
basically the boogeyman for everything it is. It's to be

4441
04:33:07,439 --> 04:33:10,000
blamed for everything. It's to be blamed for human nature.

4442
04:33:10,680 --> 04:33:16,799
And you know what I would say about you know,

4443
04:33:16,880 --> 04:33:19,159
and then they'll say, well, you know, if we had

4444
04:33:19,240 --> 04:33:21,520
if there was no state, and you know, the market

4445
04:33:21,680 --> 04:33:25,000
controlled everything and everything was based on economics, you know,

4446
04:33:25,439 --> 04:33:28,759
if somebody got violent, we could just put together, you know,

4447
04:33:29,159 --> 04:33:31,000
a bunch of people could get together and they could

4448
04:33:31,040 --> 04:33:33,200
just nip it in the bud right there. And it's like,

4449
04:33:34,000 --> 04:33:36,159
I don't know about that, you know. I mean, people

4450
04:33:36,479 --> 04:33:42,599
have a tendency to tribe up, and one tribe is

4451
04:33:42,720 --> 04:33:45,279
going to and this is just what history tells us.

4452
04:33:45,599 --> 04:33:48,159
Is stronger than another, is going to be more powerful

4453
04:33:48,159 --> 04:33:50,319
than another, is going to be more violent than another,

4454
04:33:50,479 --> 04:33:54,759
is going to be willing to commit total war against another.

4455
04:33:55,560 --> 04:33:58,799
And I'm not saying the state is here to stop that.

4456
04:33:59,479 --> 04:34:05,479
I'm just saying that making the broad claim that without

4457
04:34:05,479 --> 04:34:09,959
a state things would be better than they are right now, well,

4458
04:34:10,000 --> 04:34:12,159
first of all, you have no evidence of that, it's

4459
04:34:12,159 --> 04:34:16,560
a complete theory. And second of all, making that claim

4460
04:34:16,680 --> 04:34:21,040
is really childish. If either of you want to push

4461
04:34:21,040 --> 04:34:23,400
back on that at all, I'm willing to listen.

4462
04:34:24,279 --> 04:34:27,919
Speaker 8: I can, I guess in some ways to defend anarchism,

4463
04:34:28,080 --> 04:34:31,799
I mean anarchism, anarcho capitalism. These are fine to have

4464
04:34:31,919 --> 04:34:34,639
as political myths. You know, there's no real problem with

4465
04:34:35,599 --> 04:34:38,400
using those in order to help organize people. But in

4466
04:34:38,479 --> 04:34:42,400
terms of the organizers, the elite, if you will, actually

4467
04:34:42,439 --> 04:34:46,840
attempting to organize your minority at the elite level around

4468
04:34:46,880 --> 04:34:49,680
the concept of anarchism doesn't actually make any sense.

4469
04:34:49,840 --> 04:34:50,720
Speaker 2: And the book.

4470
04:34:51,119 --> 04:34:55,000
Speaker 8: The book actually makes an interesting comment earlier in regards

4471
04:34:55,080 --> 04:34:59,000
to how capitalism worked. You know, when in this era

4472
04:34:59,080 --> 04:35:02,119
when we had free we basically had free markets by

4473
04:35:02,200 --> 04:35:05,959
force because the capitalist ruling class came into being and

4474
04:35:06,639 --> 04:35:09,520
made the society capitalist. Right, it was made to be

4475
04:35:09,599 --> 04:35:12,119
that way. It wasn't just sort of that way in

4476
04:35:12,159 --> 04:35:16,080
some natural sense. So you know, this is something I've

4477
04:35:16,119 --> 04:35:18,319
mentioned before. I mean, you can you can basically have

4478
04:35:18,439 --> 04:35:23,680
your sort of anarcho capitalist ideal in a in a

4479
04:35:23,799 --> 04:35:28,240
very approximate sense if you simply have a elite class

4480
04:35:28,319 --> 04:35:34,360
ruling somewhat paradoxically implementing that system, right, but you still

4481
04:35:34,880 --> 04:35:39,119
have to actually have the state if you will implement

4482
04:35:39,520 --> 04:35:44,479
anarcho capitalism, which is somewhat of a contradiction. But according

4483
04:35:44,520 --> 04:35:47,080
to the theory of this book, which I think is

4484
04:35:47,159 --> 04:35:51,159
very well demonstrated, that's simply how it must be. And

4485
04:35:51,400 --> 04:35:56,720
people who style themselves as some sort of anarcho capitalist

4486
04:35:56,759 --> 04:35:59,200
elite in the sense that they have some intent to

4487
04:36:00,159 --> 04:36:03,919
organized for political power, say like a Ron Paul or something,

4488
04:36:04,000 --> 04:36:06,680
they have to operate with.

4489
04:36:06,639 --> 04:36:12,400
Speaker 7: That recognition, right, and that might even start looking very

4490
04:36:12,439 --> 04:36:15,439
similar to what a lot of people who claimed to

4491
04:36:15,479 --> 04:36:17,759
be hoppy. And I'm not going to speak for Hoppa

4492
04:36:17,880 --> 04:36:20,919
himself just because he puts out such a wide volume

4493
04:36:20,959 --> 04:36:23,720
of works that I'm not going to try to summarize it.

4494
04:36:23,759 --> 04:36:25,720
But the people that claim to be hoppy and tend

4495
04:36:25,720 --> 04:36:31,520
to advocate for a system that sounds very similar to

4496
04:36:31,599 --> 04:36:34,360
what a state is being described as in this book.

4497
04:36:35,279 --> 04:36:38,639
Because you have to remember, whenever, whenever in the like

4498
04:36:38,880 --> 04:36:41,279
page twenty, or whenever it is in the first chapter,

4499
04:36:41,319 --> 04:36:44,639
whenever you introduce the concept of a state, it's not

4500
04:36:44,799 --> 04:36:47,439
presumed to be some modern system that you can go

4501
04:36:47,599 --> 04:36:50,520
look around today. There's no like DMV that is necessary

4502
04:36:50,560 --> 04:36:53,360
in the definition of the state. You know, there's no

4503
04:36:53,560 --> 04:36:57,799
sort of underclass of you know, lump and proletariat needed

4504
04:36:57,799 --> 04:37:01,279
to staff. It's that's necessary the concept of the state.

4505
04:37:01,720 --> 04:37:05,479
It is literally just the organized minority that has to

4506
04:37:05,599 --> 04:37:07,520
rule over the majority, and that is a fact in

4507
04:37:07,639 --> 04:37:10,720
day to day life. And then that definition is an

4508
04:37:10,720 --> 04:37:15,680
extrapolaid to apply to these four spheres of society that

4509
04:37:15,720 --> 04:37:20,959
people try to separate out of that state. But you know,

4510
04:37:21,080 --> 04:37:24,479
speaking from earlier on in the book, and that's just

4511
04:37:25,200 --> 04:37:29,599
most books typically will have the basic axioms or the

4512
04:37:29,639 --> 04:37:32,880
basic ideas early on in the book that you can

4513
04:37:32,919 --> 04:37:35,720
then always refer back to to try to apply that

4514
04:37:35,799 --> 04:37:39,240
out of things not explicitly stated in the book. So

4515
04:37:39,360 --> 04:37:42,720
a lot of hopi ins probably would look at the

4516
04:37:42,720 --> 04:37:45,919
description of how the state, the minority that rules over

4517
04:37:45,919 --> 04:37:48,680
the majority, how this book says it comes about, and

4518
04:37:48,720 --> 04:37:51,840
look on it very favorably. That it is both you know,

4519
04:37:52,040 --> 04:37:58,520
it is voluntary, just because the nature of man necessitates

4520
04:37:58,560 --> 04:38:01,360
that you can't literally just or someone to do absolutely

4521
04:38:01,400 --> 04:38:02,959
everything you want them to. There has to be some

4522
04:38:03,119 --> 04:38:06,919
element of voluntary action in there. But then also because

4523
04:38:06,959 --> 04:38:10,799
of the nature of man, it requires people to organize socially,

4524
04:38:11,599 --> 04:38:14,159
it's coercive in that way, you know, you are tied

4525
04:38:14,200 --> 04:38:18,880
to that sort of natural need. So people that I

4526
04:38:18,959 --> 04:38:22,599
argue for covening communities, that argue for contractual communities and

4527
04:38:22,639 --> 04:38:24,840
all this other stuff, those types of anarchists that I

4528
04:38:24,880 --> 04:38:28,520
tend to see is much more real, probably wouldn't find

4529
04:38:28,560 --> 04:38:34,240
that much to object to in this which is, you know,

4530
04:38:34,279 --> 04:38:37,279
it repudiates sort of the pie in the sky anarchistic

4531
04:38:37,319 --> 04:38:41,119
thought that Pete definitely goes off against quite often from

4532
04:38:41,119 --> 04:38:43,759
what I can tell. And it also sort of affirms

4533
04:38:43,759 --> 04:38:46,799
the more realist tendencies within these people whenever they see

4534
04:38:46,840 --> 04:38:50,080
how things actually function, which is why these four myths

4535
04:38:50,080 --> 04:38:53,040
are being stated here. Even though on the surface, if

4536
04:38:53,040 --> 04:38:54,880
you have not read the book and you just kind

4537
04:38:54,880 --> 04:38:58,439
of plunge into it right here, they might look very

4538
04:38:58,759 --> 04:39:01,880
sort of status the pejorative term, if you are to

4539
04:39:02,000 --> 04:39:05,080
use it, But in reality, when you read through this book,

4540
04:39:05,119 --> 04:39:08,200
it is just affirming very real facts that you know,

4541
04:39:08,319 --> 04:39:12,119
actual realists, libertarians or anarchists have come to grapple with

4542
04:39:12,720 --> 04:39:15,799
for the past few decades. You know, this is a

4543
04:39:16,200 --> 04:39:19,040
if anything, it's sort of a codifying of those lessons

4544
04:39:19,040 --> 04:39:21,240
that have been learned, is.

4545
04:39:21,159 --> 04:39:21,599
Speaker 2: What I mean.

4546
04:39:22,439 --> 04:39:25,959
Speaker 8: Just as a point of interest, Hansumanhappa does cite the

4547
04:39:26,080 --> 04:39:28,720
juvenile extensively in Democracy The God That.

4548
04:39:28,680 --> 04:39:33,919
Speaker 7: Failed, Yeah, and Rothbard sites I think all three of

4549
04:39:33,959 --> 04:39:36,520
the Italians used in this book quite extensively in all

4550
04:39:36,560 --> 04:39:37,279
of his essays.

4551
04:39:38,000 --> 04:39:43,159
Speaker 1: And Happa would definitely say that you're looking for in

4552
04:39:43,279 --> 04:39:47,000
building these communities, you're looking for pillars of the community

4553
04:39:47,200 --> 04:39:52,759
or what he calls natural elites. So yeah, I was Yeah.

4554
04:39:52,959 --> 04:39:56,520
I also wanted to say I've said this a few

4555
04:39:56,599 --> 04:40:00,279
times that you know, we could have Enkapistan tomorrow if

4556
04:40:00,279 --> 04:40:03,560
the elites wanted it. But then if you're looking at

4557
04:40:03,560 --> 04:40:05,919
the elites that are there now, you have to question

4558
04:40:06,040 --> 04:40:09,720
why they would want it. You know, you're these people.

4559
04:40:11,119 --> 04:40:13,880
We want our friends in charge. I mean, that's pretty

4560
04:40:13,919 --> 04:40:17,599
much to me. The message of this book is there's

4561
04:40:17,599 --> 04:40:19,040
always going to be a state, and we need our

4562
04:40:19,080 --> 04:40:20,040
friends in charge of it.

4563
04:40:20,240 --> 04:40:22,080
Speaker 2: We need people who.

4564
04:40:23,200 --> 04:40:26,880
Speaker 1: Think like us and desire the things that we want,

4565
04:40:27,279 --> 04:40:31,959
or else we have what we have now. So all right,

4566
04:40:32,040 --> 04:40:37,599
I'm gonna keep going. So talking about the formats, let

4567
04:40:37,680 --> 04:40:39,319
us with each of these.

4568
04:40:39,360 --> 04:40:39,759
Speaker 2: In turn.

4569
04:40:40,080 --> 04:40:42,919
Speaker 1: The myth of the stateless society permeates the two competing

4570
04:40:42,919 --> 04:40:47,360
ideologies of the twentieth century liberalism and socialism at their

4571
04:40:47,400 --> 04:40:51,279
extreme ends in a narco libertarianism whether left or right,

4572
04:40:51,880 --> 04:40:57,240
and communism. Mosca and Michelle's demonstrate that this is fundamentally

4573
04:40:57,279 --> 04:41:01,439
wrong headed because minority organization always prevails, from the level

4574
04:41:01,479 --> 04:41:05,520
of a tribe to the level of global government. Humans

4575
04:41:05,560 --> 04:41:09,319
are simply put the political animal, and what is called

4576
04:41:09,360 --> 04:41:12,000
the state is simply the fact that there must be

4577
04:41:12,720 --> 04:41:15,840
there must be the political function, that there must be

4578
04:41:15,959 --> 04:41:21,400
the political function in any society go on because I

4579
04:41:21,439 --> 04:41:25,159
think we probably beat that one to death. The second

4580
04:41:25,200 --> 04:41:27,919
myth that the state is separate from its laws and

4581
04:41:28,000 --> 04:41:31,560
institutions is shown to be false by Karl Schmidt, who

4582
04:41:31,599 --> 04:41:35,880
demonstrates that despite liberal pipe dreams, there is no escape

4583
04:41:35,880 --> 04:41:39,479
from the political Even though the cloak of neutral or

4584
04:41:39,520 --> 04:41:43,159
scientific language can be used to mask the ideological content,

4585
04:41:43,799 --> 04:41:47,560
every institution will bear the mark of the dominant political formula,

4586
04:41:48,000 --> 04:41:52,119
which acts as a kind of theological holy writ. If

4587
04:41:52,159 --> 04:41:56,200
the political formula is equality, diversity, and inclusion, there can

4588
04:41:56,240 --> 04:41:59,119
be no other official bodies or laws that do not

4589
04:41:59,319 --> 04:41:59,919
conform to it.

4590
04:42:00,959 --> 04:42:01,439
Speaker 2: Samuel T.

4591
04:42:01,560 --> 04:42:04,919
Speaker 1: Francis shows that the managerial elites will not stop their

4592
04:42:04,959 --> 04:42:09,040
social transformations until all relics and vestiges of the old

4593
04:42:09,159 --> 04:42:13,240
and despised bourgeois regime are replaced by the new religion

4594
04:42:13,520 --> 04:42:16,840
at every level of culture down to your local museum.

4595
04:42:17,840 --> 04:42:20,560
Paul Gottfried shows that this is even taken to the

4596
04:42:20,560 --> 04:42:24,080
domain of science and medicine, to the extent those who

4597
04:42:24,159 --> 04:42:34,680
resist a political formula are diagnosed with mental disorders. Comments, well,

4598
04:42:34,759 --> 04:42:38,840
I guess it just this really hits hard because.

4599
04:42:40,880 --> 04:42:45,479
Speaker 8: We were all brought up with the myth that we,

4600
04:42:46,279 --> 04:42:47,759
you know, we live in a free country. We have

4601
04:42:47,840 --> 04:42:50,560
free press, and all of our ideas are free. But

4602
04:42:50,639 --> 04:42:55,080
of course that's just not true at all. Everything that

4603
04:42:55,840 --> 04:42:59,319
people you know, we have democratic opinions, right, we don't

4604
04:42:59,319 --> 04:43:03,880
have like free speech, we have democratic speech. You're not

4605
04:43:03,919 --> 04:43:08,479
allowed anywhere because of the law to you know, promote fascism,

4606
04:43:08,560 --> 04:43:10,279
for example. If you try to do that, you're going

4607
04:43:10,360 --> 04:43:14,159
to get in serious trouble almost immediately. And this this

4608
04:43:14,200 --> 04:43:17,919
book just viscerates the idea that the press and the

4609
04:43:17,959 --> 04:43:20,439
ideas we have or sort of these free ideas that

4610
04:43:20,880 --> 04:43:25,360
weren't instituted by some sort of political formula by the state.

4611
04:43:26,240 --> 04:43:29,880
All of the institutions we have are not free institutions.

4612
04:43:29,919 --> 04:43:33,400
They're democratic institutions, at least in terms of the formula.

4613
04:43:33,560 --> 04:43:38,360
And it's this is really important to hit home for

4614
04:43:38,520 --> 04:43:41,479
people who read this book who aren't actually, you know,

4615
04:43:41,520 --> 04:43:46,919
familiar with these ideas, sort of disabusing yourself of the

4616
04:43:47,000 --> 04:43:50,240
myth that all of the ideas that you've been taught

4617
04:43:50,279 --> 04:43:52,880
are sort of free and not tied to some sort

4618
04:43:52,880 --> 04:43:56,959
of political formula. That's that's a really important aspect of

4619
04:43:57,000 --> 04:44:01,080
this book that sort of runs alongside the main concepts of.

4620
04:44:01,040 --> 04:44:06,759
Speaker 7: Elite theory, right and like even a minor point to

4621
04:44:06,759 --> 04:44:08,720
add on to that, because a lot of right wingers have,

4622
04:44:09,159 --> 04:44:12,400
especially in the last few years, well understood the idea

4623
04:44:12,439 --> 04:44:15,919
that it's not just what does legally dejure the government,

4624
04:44:16,880 --> 04:44:19,799
but it's also things like the media. It's things like

4625
04:44:19,840 --> 04:44:21,759
the press, the public schools, and all this other stuff

4626
04:44:21,799 --> 04:44:24,560
that is what that is what forms, you know, the

4627
04:44:24,720 --> 04:44:27,680
idea of the government, this monolithic entity that will just

4628
04:44:27,720 --> 04:44:30,520
control every facet of your life, whether or not they

4629
04:44:30,599 --> 04:44:33,840
legally have to answer to the president of the leader

4630
04:44:33,880 --> 04:44:35,919
of the deep state, or depending on who you talk to,

4631
04:44:36,240 --> 04:44:38,919
you know, whatever boogeyman is hiding under the under the rug.

4632
04:44:40,520 --> 04:44:43,959
The The contribution here that I don't see many people

4633
04:44:44,000 --> 04:44:46,720
on the right talking about is, you know Paul Gottfried's

4634
04:44:46,720 --> 04:44:49,240
point about the doctors that will diagnose you with mental

4635
04:44:49,240 --> 04:44:52,439
illness if you dare to go against this political formula,

4636
04:44:53,159 --> 04:44:56,000
this or the political reality that just sits in front

4637
04:44:56,000 --> 04:44:59,279
of you, they'll give you They'll call you mentally deranged.

4638
04:44:59,319 --> 04:45:02,680
They will have all these medicines or magnetic treatments for

4639
04:45:02,759 --> 04:45:05,240
your brain, perhaps if you remember that story, to make

4640
04:45:05,279 --> 04:45:09,439
you less xenophobic. They will have all these different pills

4641
04:45:09,479 --> 04:45:13,439
prescribed to you if you somehow become so disaffected that

4642
04:45:13,520 --> 04:45:17,159
you look depressed, or any of these other clinical diagnoses.

4643
04:45:18,599 --> 04:45:22,200
It's not just things that you would naturally associate as

4644
04:45:22,240 --> 04:45:25,759
being political or legal in nature. It is literally science

4645
04:45:25,799 --> 04:45:28,599
itself that has to fall under the formula as well.

4646
04:45:29,279 --> 04:45:32,959
It is total, much more total than most people talk about.

4647
04:45:33,840 --> 04:45:38,040
Speaker 1: Charlie mentioned the mentioned fascism that you can't even talk

4648
04:45:38,080 --> 04:45:43,200
about fascism. And we saw this Georgia Maloney who got

4649
04:45:43,279 --> 04:45:46,799
elected in Italy, and we were on the live stream

4650
04:45:46,840 --> 04:45:49,159
last night I was doing with Thomas. Someone asked him,

4651
04:45:49,639 --> 04:45:55,560
you know how close she is to mister big chin

4652
04:45:55,680 --> 04:46:00,319
Man from the nineteen twenties, and Thomas said, her message

4653
04:46:00,479 --> 04:46:04,080
is no different than Tony Blair's in nineteen ninety seven

4654
04:46:04,200 --> 04:46:09,479
coming to coming to power, because she's no Tony Blair

4655
04:46:09,479 --> 04:46:13,200
had the same message. So to try to compare him

4656
04:46:13,319 --> 04:46:18,599
to to to call it fascism is really a is

4657
04:46:18,720 --> 04:46:22,599
exposing that therapeutic state that Paul Godfrey talks about, is

4658
04:46:22,639 --> 04:46:26,000
that there's something wrong with this woman. And you know,

4659
04:46:27,560 --> 04:46:32,000
I'm I'm at the point where I think that you know,

4660
04:46:32,439 --> 04:46:36,959
they may just read readin state lobotomies to try and

4661
04:46:37,040 --> 04:46:38,720
help people get past us.

4662
04:46:40,720 --> 04:46:45,639
Speaker 7: I mean, that's what was the the certain scientists from

4663
04:46:45,680 --> 04:46:49,200
a Middle Eastern country of origin. We're developing magnetic treatments.

4664
04:46:49,479 --> 04:46:49,599
Speaker 5: Uh.

4665
04:46:49,759 --> 04:46:51,759
Speaker 7: You know that famous story that everyone freaked out about.

4666
04:46:51,759 --> 04:46:54,279
I mean that might you might as well just lobotomize

4667
04:46:54,319 --> 04:46:57,360
people at that point. But even just to hammer the

4668
04:46:57,400 --> 04:46:59,400
point home, you're told from a young age, you know,

4669
04:46:59,560 --> 04:47:03,000
trust your doctor on these medical ideas and all this

4670
04:47:03,080 --> 04:47:05,759
other stuff is no different than trust the government to

4671
04:47:05,799 --> 04:47:08,279
carry out the will of the people. At this point,

4672
04:47:08,680 --> 04:47:12,599
it's such a political organ it's no different.

4673
04:47:12,720 --> 04:47:13,080
Speaker 2: All right.

4674
04:47:13,240 --> 04:47:16,119
Speaker 1: Non The third myth that the state and the economy

4675
04:47:16,159 --> 04:47:18,919
could ever be separated, the myth of the free market,

4676
04:47:19,240 --> 04:47:24,000
is the central tenet of classical liberalism. Bertrand the Juvenile

4677
04:47:24,080 --> 04:47:28,880
shows that since the political comes prior to any economy,

4678
04:47:29,279 --> 04:47:33,040
the economy itself can never and will never escape politics.

4679
04:47:33,799 --> 04:47:37,279
James Burnham shows that lays fair was simply the political

4680
04:47:37,319 --> 04:47:40,840
formula of the capitalists who gained power in the nineteenth century.

4681
04:47:41,159 --> 04:47:44,599
But this, because of the practicalities of mass and scale,

4682
04:47:45,080 --> 04:47:48,919
gave way to managerialism and the fusion of corporate interests

4683
04:47:49,040 --> 04:47:53,479
and the state. We have seen how even the economy

4684
04:47:53,599 --> 04:47:56,880
in the managerial state is a top down process. The

4685
04:47:56,919 --> 04:48:00,520
consumer is not sovereign. Despite the slogans, the manager class

4686
04:48:00,599 --> 04:48:04,400
used the roles of executives at large corporations and financial

4687
04:48:04,400 --> 04:48:08,360
institutions to set directives and mission statements for the foreseeable

4688
04:48:08,400 --> 04:48:12,799
time horizon. The reason organizations such as the UN and

4689
04:48:12,840 --> 04:48:15,919
the World Economic Forum can announce their visions for Agenda

4690
04:48:15,959 --> 04:48:20,319
twenty thirty is because the economy itself is managed now.

4691
04:48:20,639 --> 04:48:25,319
As Charlie and I come from libertarianism, and Ryan, I

4692
04:48:25,360 --> 04:48:28,319
believe you are a economics major right now.

4693
04:48:28,240 --> 04:48:34,000
Speaker 7: Right yes, and entrepreneurship. I am studying under a pair byolence,

4694
04:48:34,119 --> 04:48:35,319
so then you know this is all.

4695
04:48:36,000 --> 04:48:38,919
Speaker 8: I was never a libertarian for the record, were you not?

4696
04:48:39,759 --> 04:48:39,840
Speaker 2: No?

4697
04:48:40,040 --> 04:48:45,400
Speaker 8: Never definitely close, close around maybe twenty fifteen or something,

4698
04:48:45,560 --> 04:48:46,720
but never quite there.

4699
04:48:47,360 --> 04:48:49,040
Speaker 2: Where were you on Austrian economics?

4700
04:48:50,840 --> 04:48:54,720
Speaker 8: I mean, I think, as mister Borvini would say, I

4701
04:48:54,759 --> 04:48:59,080
agree with the Austrian economics is one hundred percent correct

4702
04:48:59,159 --> 04:49:04,639
in terms of how human action functions. But it's not

4703
04:49:04,680 --> 04:49:10,400
a political formula. It's the it's the objective description of

4704
04:49:10,880 --> 04:49:14,479
human economic action, much like elite theory is the objective

4705
04:49:14,520 --> 04:49:16,240
description of human power.

4706
04:49:17,200 --> 04:49:21,080
Speaker 1: Well, what do you think about the statement here that

4707
04:49:21,240 --> 04:49:27,400
either you can take this that because since the political

4708
04:49:27,479 --> 04:49:30,720
comes prior to any economy, the economy itself can never

4709
04:49:30,759 --> 04:49:33,439
and will never escape politics. Do you believe that's true,

4710
04:49:33,439 --> 04:49:36,560
that the political will always because there are a lot

4711
04:49:36,560 --> 04:49:38,880
of people out there and they call themselves an archo

4712
04:49:38,959 --> 04:49:43,959
capitalists who believe that you can actually build a society

4713
04:49:44,599 --> 04:49:45,759
off of economics.

4714
04:49:47,680 --> 04:49:51,560
Speaker 8: Well, come before is sort of a strange turn a

4715
04:49:51,560 --> 04:49:55,479
phrase in a way. I mean, these things always exist simultaneously.

4716
04:49:55,560 --> 04:49:58,439
If there's human beings, they're going to be making economic

4717
04:49:58,479 --> 04:50:02,759
decisions and they are going to be making decisions regarding power.

4718
04:50:03,720 --> 04:50:09,560
So these things always exist simultaneously, and economics is a

4719
04:50:09,599 --> 04:50:15,360
description of how humans trade with each other. But power

4720
04:50:15,439 --> 04:50:18,240
is always going to be able to supersede that. You can,

4721
04:50:18,319 --> 04:50:23,639
of course have power sort of as the earlier chapter

4722
04:50:23,759 --> 04:50:26,919
alluded to or stated directly, when you have a capitalist

4723
04:50:26,959 --> 04:50:30,680
ruling class, you can allow the economy to operate freely,

4724
04:50:30,720 --> 04:50:33,639
but that's always at the behest of power. And you know,

4725
04:50:33,720 --> 04:50:35,439
power is always going to come into being as soon

4726
04:50:35,439 --> 04:50:37,319
as you even have a small tribe of people. So

4727
04:50:38,319 --> 04:50:41,360
you know, if you have only one person even he again,

4728
04:50:41,400 --> 04:50:45,759
Pravini even mentions the Robinson Crusoe situation somewhere earlier in

4729
04:50:45,799 --> 04:50:48,159
the book. You know, if you just have one person

4730
04:50:48,439 --> 04:50:50,759
or maybe two people on a deserted island and there's

4731
04:50:50,759 --> 04:50:54,439
no real power relationship, you're not going to have a tribe.

4732
04:50:54,919 --> 04:50:57,400
Having a tribe of two people, I guess you could

4733
04:50:57,400 --> 04:50:59,680
technically call it a tribe. But only in these weird

4734
04:51:01,279 --> 04:51:06,720
edge cases does do power relationships not emerge to subsume

4735
04:51:06,840 --> 04:51:11,639
economic activity. So, yeah, I fundamentally agree with his debunking of.

4736
04:51:11,639 --> 04:51:17,759
Speaker 2: The third myth. You got anything right?

4737
04:51:18,319 --> 04:51:22,880
Speaker 7: Sorry I can, yeah, sorry. So the only the thing

4738
04:51:22,919 --> 04:51:25,479
that I disagree with is the idea that the political

4739
04:51:25,520 --> 04:51:31,520
becomes political organization. The political sphere of life precedes economic

4740
04:51:32,439 --> 04:51:37,040
the economic sphere, just because it's both of them are

4741
04:51:37,040 --> 04:51:41,599
fundamentally social. And it seems strange to me to say

4742
04:51:41,639 --> 04:51:46,560
that in every single case power relations will precede exchange.

4743
04:51:48,240 --> 04:51:50,439
But this is this could ultimately just be seen as

4744
04:51:50,439 --> 04:51:53,040
hair splitting, because it's ultimately going to end up the

4745
04:51:53,080 --> 04:51:57,240
answers at the same time they will come about, which doesn't,

4746
04:51:57,520 --> 04:52:00,759
you know, absolve any of these ideas. Is from the

4747
04:52:00,799 --> 04:52:05,200
criticism here. It's just it's more just the the certainty

4748
04:52:05,240 --> 04:52:11,159
that this that political life precedes the economic. Now, with

4749
04:52:11,200 --> 04:52:14,720
all of that, the JAB at consumer sovereignty at the end,

4750
04:52:14,759 --> 04:52:17,200
I can understand why he would take it, just because

4751
04:52:17,479 --> 04:52:19,959
most people have so distorted it to mean that the

4752
04:52:19,959 --> 04:52:25,639
consumer just directs and controls everything, when in reality it

4753
04:52:25,720 --> 04:52:29,720
is simply just can the consumer choose to purchase or

4754
04:52:30,040 --> 04:52:34,360
not purchase, or withhold money or not even do they

4755
04:52:34,400 --> 04:52:38,360
have different options, just can they choose to purchase at

4756
04:52:38,360 --> 04:52:41,720
its very base, meaning uh, this is still true. But

4757
04:52:41,759 --> 04:52:43,840
then you do end up with the question does that

4758
04:52:43,840 --> 04:52:46,439
mean they're actually sovereign? Well, depends on what you mean

4759
04:52:46,479 --> 04:52:50,000
by sovereign. I understand the JAB why he takes the

4760
04:52:50,080 --> 04:52:54,119
JAB there. I don't think he's necessarily attacking the properly

4761
04:52:54,439 --> 04:52:58,680
understood concept there. But for all intents and purposes, the

4762
04:52:58,840 --> 04:53:01,240
sort of pop definition of it you would get like

4763
04:53:01,279 --> 04:53:04,680
a business class or a marketing class by all means

4764
04:53:04,680 --> 04:53:08,639
that has still been debunked. But at least here I'm

4765
04:53:08,639 --> 04:53:12,200
not exactly forced to purchase pepsi or Coca cola. I

4766
04:53:12,240 --> 04:53:17,639
can just not purchase either, which under the traditional definition

4767
04:53:17,680 --> 04:53:20,200
doesn't mean that I still have sovereignty. Now, you know,

4768
04:53:20,240 --> 04:53:22,919
in the coming future, where there might be a you know,

4769
04:53:22,959 --> 04:53:26,360
a political commisar standing on the grocery aisle enforcing a

4770
04:53:26,439 --> 04:53:29,639
diversity quota in my purchases, then I might need to

4771
04:53:29,680 --> 04:53:33,319
start purchasing which case, now you can you can debunk it,

4772
04:53:33,360 --> 04:53:37,639
but this is a economics autism and hair splitting. But

4773
04:53:37,799 --> 04:53:39,360
I might as well be thorough if we're going to

4774
04:53:39,799 --> 04:53:41,279
if we're going to treat this seriously.

4775
04:53:42,759 --> 04:53:46,279
Speaker 1: Sure, And if you look at the so trying to

4776
04:53:46,360 --> 04:53:52,240
separate in the early colonies there the early colonies, they

4777
04:53:52,319 --> 04:53:55,319
had there was a great degree of freedom that they

4778
04:53:55,360 --> 04:53:58,759
had from the crown. Being three thousand miles helped a lot,

4779
04:53:59,680 --> 04:54:02,439
but they You read Patrick Newman's book Cronyism, and he

4780
04:54:02,479 --> 04:54:07,400
starts in sixteen oh seven, And what you're seeing is

4781
04:54:07,439 --> 04:54:11,560
you're seeing that whenever, it doesn't matter if you're just here,

4782
04:54:11,799 --> 04:54:13,520
if you just showed up on a boat and you're

4783
04:54:13,560 --> 04:54:19,840
with a bunch, the croniism always exists. And to try

4784
04:54:19,880 --> 04:54:23,759
to and I hear people and I probably used to

4785
04:54:23,799 --> 04:54:25,400
say this all the time, so you can probably find

4786
04:54:25,400 --> 04:54:27,959
audio me saying it that a free market would solve

4787
04:54:28,000 --> 04:54:30,799
that problem. Free market could actually make it worse. I mean,

4788
04:54:30,799 --> 04:54:34,000
there could be just much more collusion in laissez fair

4789
04:54:34,080 --> 04:54:40,119
of companies coming together. I think the idea that monopolies

4790
04:54:40,159 --> 04:54:44,159
won't happen because people could just people would be able

4791
04:54:44,200 --> 04:54:46,720
to start a company that morning, because there are no

4792
04:54:46,880 --> 04:54:51,840
regulations against starting a company. If I had a big company,

4793
04:54:51,840 --> 04:54:53,680
I would just buy that person out. I mean, I

4794
04:54:53,680 --> 04:54:56,119
would offer them so much money that they would be like, okay,

4795
04:54:56,200 --> 04:54:58,840
well it would take me years to make this amount

4796
04:54:58,880 --> 04:55:02,159
of money, So this is what I'm to do. Yeah,

4797
04:55:02,200 --> 04:55:08,040
So the right, the idea that the that competition is

4798
04:55:08,080 --> 04:55:12,279
going to solve every problem and laisse faiir is going

4799
04:55:12,279 --> 04:55:15,040
to solve every problem. And I think we've said this,

4800
04:55:15,439 --> 04:55:18,759
I've said this numerous times, like, really, the the freest

4801
04:55:18,840 --> 04:55:23,119
market that you see now is basically the black market,

4802
04:55:23,279 --> 04:55:25,840
and even the black market, their prices are going to

4803
04:55:25,840 --> 04:55:28,119
be dictated by the prices in white markets.

4804
04:55:28,279 --> 04:55:32,520
Speaker 7: So right, and then, of course, just to hammer the

4805
04:55:32,520 --> 04:55:34,479
point home, you will come back to sort of the

4806
04:55:34,520 --> 04:55:37,720
other autistically economic talking point of well, if there is

4807
04:55:37,759 --> 04:55:40,400
a monopoly that naturally comes about, does that mean it's bad?

4808
04:55:41,080 --> 04:55:43,799
Could be it could it could be our friends run it,

4809
04:55:43,840 --> 04:55:46,080
so it's good. It could be that it's someone we

4810
04:55:46,119 --> 04:55:49,759
are ultimately indifferent about that runs it and they just

4811
04:55:49,840 --> 04:55:54,639
do it well than okay, fine, Really, realistically and politically,

4812
04:55:54,720 --> 04:55:57,040
this is only a bad thing if it's our enemies

4813
04:55:57,080 --> 04:55:59,560
running it. And if they do actually have a genuine

4814
04:56:00,080 --> 04:56:02,479
monopoly just because they are good at what they are doing,

4815
04:56:03,400 --> 04:56:06,880
that's when it becomes a bad thing. But and other

4816
04:56:07,159 --> 04:56:10,000
is keeping with the realistic analysis, you don't just have

4817
04:56:10,040 --> 04:56:13,799
to economically challenge them. There are other ways to challenge

4818
04:56:13,799 --> 04:56:18,159
those sorts of those sorts of people, right, And I

4819
04:56:18,200 --> 04:56:19,599
think it's going attest.

4820
04:56:19,319 --> 04:56:23,880
Speaker 1: To and I think a government that actually did protect

4821
04:56:23,880 --> 04:56:27,119
the rights of the people, only the most autistic of

4822
04:56:27,240 --> 04:56:31,240
anarchists would be against it, you know, that protected our rights,

4823
04:56:31,240 --> 04:56:35,040
that where the military was just there to make sure

4824
04:56:35,080 --> 04:56:36,919
that we were safe, that the police were there to

4825
04:56:36,919 --> 04:56:43,319
make sure we're safe. You know, I don't know, I

4826
04:56:43,360 --> 04:56:48,639
don't know's it's hard the world, especially after the last

4827
04:56:48,639 --> 04:56:53,439
two and a half years, and really try to nail

4828
04:56:53,439 --> 04:56:55,759
down why there are some people who are still talking

4829
04:56:55,759 --> 04:56:59,240
about statelessness and talk about it on a I mean,

4830
04:56:59,279 --> 04:57:01,959
that's their main talking a point instead of it just

4831
04:57:02,040 --> 04:57:05,959
being like the North Star or something like that. All Right,

4832
04:57:05,959 --> 04:57:09,479
I'm gonna go to the fourth myth. The fourth myth

4833
04:57:09,599 --> 04:57:12,680
is that there is a separation of powers in a

4834
04:57:12,720 --> 04:57:15,880
liberal democracy, which is to say that there are checks

4835
04:57:15,880 --> 04:57:19,759
and balances between the various branches of government. This is

4836
04:57:19,880 --> 04:57:24,119
largely collapsed by the incisive analysis of Schmidt and the

4837
04:57:24,200 --> 04:57:28,479
process of powers tendency to seek to conquer feudal castles

4838
04:57:28,840 --> 04:57:33,319
identified by Juvenil. It is worth noting that at least

4839
04:57:33,319 --> 04:57:36,759
three of these of the thinkers covered Mosca, Burnham and

4840
04:57:36,880 --> 04:57:40,880
Juvenil himself favor a system by which centralization or the

4841
04:57:40,919 --> 04:57:44,439
convergence of power centers is held in a kind of

4842
04:57:44,560 --> 04:57:49,279
equilibrium through a constant struggle, even if in practice they

4843
04:57:49,319 --> 04:57:56,479
recognize the extreme the extreme difficulty of achieving this. I'll

4844
04:57:56,479 --> 04:58:00,119
go on if no one has anything to say while well,

4845
04:58:00,119 --> 04:58:03,439
it appears that populism largely failed, not because it was

4846
04:58:03,479 --> 04:58:08,400
not supported by the masses, but because of political naivete.

4847
04:58:08,959 --> 04:58:12,240
That does not mean a circulation of the elites is

4848
04:58:12,319 --> 04:58:16,919
not due. As the lies and manipulations of the managerial

4849
04:58:16,959 --> 04:58:19,880
regime become more and more visible to a public that

4850
04:58:19,919 --> 04:58:24,799
has become widely skeptical of our current global globalist elites

4851
04:58:25,000 --> 04:58:28,919
and the system that supports them, agitation for significant change

4852
04:58:28,959 --> 04:58:33,360
will continue a pace. Attempts to maintain official narratives and

4853
04:58:33,439 --> 04:58:38,479
maintain free and fair elections will become more difficult. Please

4854
04:58:38,840 --> 04:58:42,439
I want this. I wanted them to build a wall

4855
04:58:42,479 --> 04:58:46,240
around the Capitol after January sixth. It strikes me that

4856
04:58:46,319 --> 04:58:49,919
the system that then faces many possible points of failure,

4857
04:58:50,279 --> 04:58:55,639
which include de facto Balkanization, the need to the need

4858
04:58:55,720 --> 04:58:59,520
for more explicit coercion, and the use of force, a

4859
04:58:59,599 --> 04:59:03,360
high low middle mechanism whereby national governments become the middle,

4860
04:59:03,639 --> 04:59:07,799
while supernational globalist governance structures become the high and local

4861
04:59:07,880 --> 04:59:13,520
regions become the middle. Bioleninism, or in other words, degradation

4862
04:59:13,720 --> 04:59:17,040
of the elites and exclusion of people of superior skills

4863
04:59:17,080 --> 04:59:20,840
and talents causes the ruling class to become complacent and

4864
04:59:21,080 --> 04:59:24,840
or inept eclipse by foreign powers.

4865
04:59:26,599 --> 04:59:29,520
Speaker 7: There is one more that he leaves out, and this

4866
04:59:29,720 --> 04:59:32,200
just could be because I didn't read clearly enough, or

4867
04:59:32,240 --> 04:59:34,880
it could be because it was infeasible at the time

4868
04:59:34,880 --> 04:59:38,680
of writing this. And it is the fact that the

4869
04:59:38,759 --> 04:59:42,639
sort of managerial method of organization that we're operating under.

4870
04:59:43,599 --> 04:59:48,840
We accept that thesis by by Burnham because he he

4871
04:59:49,119 --> 04:59:52,639
operates under the assumption that it works more profitably for

4872
04:59:52,840 --> 04:59:56,520
the people in power than any other organization method does.

4873
04:59:58,000 --> 05:00:00,639
And what you're currently seeing, especially only in the last

4874
05:00:00,720 --> 05:00:03,919
couple of months, is that that might not actually be

4875
05:00:04,080 --> 05:00:07,000
the case, because you have to you have to wonder

4876
05:00:07,040 --> 05:00:09,479
how much money do they need to print? How many

4877
05:00:09,520 --> 05:00:11,720
foreign governments do they need to coerce to keep the

4878
05:00:11,759 --> 05:00:15,959
dollars there was as the global reserve currency. How big

4879
05:00:16,000 --> 05:00:20,000
can this bureaucracy get with their you know, autistic specializations

4880
05:00:20,000 --> 05:00:22,520
of management where you'll have like a manager for like

4881
05:00:22,959 --> 05:00:26,520
specific emotions and like a in a uh in a team,

4882
05:00:26,560 --> 05:00:28,560
and then you have a manager for uh, you know,

4883
05:00:28,919 --> 05:00:32,479
interrelations between groups. You know, how bloated can this get?

4884
05:00:32,840 --> 05:00:35,919
And then you know how much sort of financial black

4885
05:00:36,000 --> 05:00:38,680
magic and wrangling can they do before you've had one

4886
05:00:38,720 --> 05:00:41,639
bubble that popped way too big and it just brings

4887
05:00:41,639 --> 05:00:44,520
everyone down. That is to summarize all of us.

4888
05:00:45,119 --> 05:00:45,520
Speaker 2: Uh.

4889
05:00:45,639 --> 05:00:47,319
Speaker 7: It could also be as well that the sort of

4890
05:00:47,360 --> 05:00:50,919
managerial method of organization is collapsing in on itself.

4891
05:00:54,799 --> 05:01:01,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, something, Charlie, what I will say is the yeah,

4892
05:01:01,639 --> 05:01:05,119
And he says in the next paragraph. At the time

4893
05:01:05,119 --> 05:01:06,959
of writing, we were seeing all five of these in

4894
05:01:06,959 --> 05:01:11,959
their nascent state de facto balkanization. We saw that pretty

4895
05:01:12,119 --> 05:01:18,560
clearly with the COVID regime in a couple states, most

4896
05:01:18,560 --> 05:01:22,400
notably Florida, the need for more explicit coercion and the

4897
05:01:22,520 --> 05:01:26,959
use of force, no more so than the way the

4898
05:01:27,080 --> 05:01:35,520
January sixth tourists were handled and FBI raiding mur A Lago,

4899
05:01:36,000 --> 05:01:41,279
the home of a former president. Real kind of banana

4900
05:01:41,319 --> 05:01:47,400
republic kind of things. Bioleninism. I mean, look at some

4901
05:01:47,479 --> 05:01:50,200
of the people that are in charge right now. I mean,

4902
05:01:50,560 --> 05:01:52,720
I could you can even say, you can even look

4903
05:01:52,720 --> 05:01:54,720
at the vice president of the United States.

4904
05:01:55,279 --> 05:01:58,400
Speaker 2: I mean, it's just got right.

4905
05:01:58,439 --> 05:02:01,560
Speaker 7: And look at the universe where they turn out their elites,

4906
05:02:02,400 --> 05:02:06,720
just by the methods that most state universities organize. And

4907
05:02:07,080 --> 05:02:09,080
with a lot of these sort of backlash the private

4908
05:02:09,200 --> 05:02:12,959
universities are getting it is unfeasible to hold high standards anymore.

4909
05:02:14,240 --> 05:02:17,319
At public universities, they have this sort of quasi sort

4910
05:02:17,400 --> 05:02:20,919
of ymar esque democratic system where the students kind of

4911
05:02:21,000 --> 05:02:24,880
rate their professors, and if the professors get too low rating,

4912
05:02:24,919 --> 05:02:27,720
their pay gets cut. They get barred from teaching these things.

4913
05:02:27,720 --> 05:02:30,000
And you need to teach in order to keep employment

4914
05:02:30,720 --> 05:02:32,680
you get barred from tenure and all this other stuff.

4915
05:02:33,400 --> 05:02:35,919
And then in private schools where they have much more

4916
05:02:36,919 --> 05:02:41,880
control over their classrooms, well, you know, students just write petitions.

4917
05:02:41,919 --> 05:02:44,639
You get enough protected classes to sign on to the

4918
05:02:44,639 --> 05:02:46,720
petition to where it makes the media headline. Then the

4919
05:02:46,720 --> 05:02:52,880
professor just gets fired. Wholesale, the elite their centers for

4920
05:02:53,000 --> 05:02:56,840
churning out new elites are actively lowering their standards by

4921
05:02:56,919 --> 05:03:01,840
design and opening themselves up to just being completely hew classed.

4922
05:03:02,680 --> 05:03:06,639
And it doesn't necessarily have to be everything though. I

4923
05:03:06,639 --> 05:03:10,279
don't know if there is a field that is resisting

4924
05:03:10,279 --> 05:03:13,959
the sort of slide and standards, but it just takes

4925
05:03:13,959 --> 05:03:17,240
a couple of things for the current elite to just

4926
05:03:17,319 --> 05:03:20,240
be completely outclassed and humiliated and for them to just

4927
05:03:20,360 --> 05:03:25,520
lose their mandate, yeah, to be unfeasibly seen as rulers.

4928
05:03:27,159 --> 05:03:29,639
Speaker 8: I want to add to what you said earlier about

4929
05:03:29,639 --> 05:03:35,200
the managerial method possibly becoming less profitable. The way I

4930
05:03:35,360 --> 05:03:38,479
gauge what's happening right now is that the managerial method

4931
05:03:39,279 --> 05:03:45,439
is becoming more and more profitable for the governing elite,

4932
05:03:45,599 --> 05:03:49,319
which are the managers, but it's becoming more profitable for

4933
05:03:49,439 --> 05:03:52,880
a smaller and smaller segment of them. So I think

4934
05:03:52,959 --> 05:03:56,240
we are we're getting to the point where the managers

4935
05:03:56,240 --> 05:04:00,400
are benefiting, but only the very very upper ash lawns

4936
05:04:00,520 --> 05:04:04,159
of the managers are really seeing the benefits of all

4937
05:04:04,200 --> 05:04:07,159
of the monetary inflation, inflation and other things we see

4938
05:04:07,200 --> 05:04:07,479
going on.

4939
05:04:07,639 --> 05:04:13,119
Speaker 1: Right, Well, do you think that there is a war

4940
05:04:13,319 --> 05:04:15,279
because of that? There's a war going on between the

4941
05:04:15,360 --> 05:04:18,279
elites right now? You know, you point, you can point

4942
05:04:18,319 --> 05:04:22,240
to Roe v. Wade being overturned, a number of gun decisions,

4943
05:04:22,319 --> 05:04:25,560
things like that. It seems like there are some people

4944
05:04:25,639 --> 05:04:31,360
working in the background who are working against the wishes

4945
05:04:31,599 --> 05:04:35,599
and the goals of the ruling elites right now.

4946
05:04:36,720 --> 05:04:40,119
Speaker 8: Right because most of the managers are now effectively just

4947
05:04:40,159 --> 05:04:43,240
being treated like the coulus. So once we're at the

4948
05:04:43,279 --> 05:04:46,159
point where, you know, I think it's inarguable that the

4949
05:04:47,680 --> 05:04:51,599
inflation and other regulations we've seen have been of insanely

4950
05:04:51,680 --> 05:04:54,880
high benefit to a tiny amount of people. But when

4951
05:04:54,880 --> 05:04:57,279
you're only actually benefiting a small part of the ruling

4952
05:04:57,319 --> 05:05:00,159
class like that, you're actually going to get your to

4953
05:05:00,279 --> 05:05:03,520
elite forming. So the counter elite may very well form

4954
05:05:04,000 --> 05:05:06,720
out of the disaffected managers, which is exactly what you

4955
05:05:06,759 --> 05:05:10,959
would expect based on the theses of this book. So

4956
05:05:11,000 --> 05:05:18,040
that's where we ought to look to for being saved

4957
05:05:18,040 --> 05:05:21,680
from this horrible system is the disaffected managers.

4958
05:05:22,080 --> 05:05:24,599
Speaker 7: Right, And just to bolster that point, just around here

4959
05:05:24,720 --> 05:05:28,479
sort of in you know, the periphery of the empire, Fevill, Oklahoma.

4960
05:05:28,560 --> 05:05:32,119
You know, planes land with not a lot of development,

4961
05:05:32,360 --> 05:05:37,799
no real structure or centers of anything except for maybe Tulsa.

4962
05:05:37,919 --> 05:05:42,040
All the people that literally do manage in these large corporations,

4963
05:05:42,159 --> 05:05:45,040
especially the oil stuff around here something very key to

4964
05:05:45,119 --> 05:05:49,959
your current system of elites, whether they realize it or not. Basically,

4965
05:05:50,000 --> 05:05:52,759
all of the managers absolutely hate what's happening, but they

4966
05:05:52,799 --> 05:05:56,040
just don't have an alternative. So you know, there is

4967
05:05:56,240 --> 05:06:00,680
a there is a sort of group and a potential

4968
05:06:00,720 --> 05:06:04,080
minority coalition there to latch onto. And basically all you

4969
05:06:04,159 --> 05:06:06,439
have to do is say, you know, we aren't even

4970
05:06:06,479 --> 05:06:08,520
necessarily going to change much. We just aren't going to

4971
05:06:08,520 --> 05:06:12,119
make you do the retarded crap. And you've already got

4972
05:06:12,200 --> 05:06:15,959
a segment for a sort of organized uh, one of

4973
05:06:16,000 --> 05:06:18,959
the groups in a minority coalition that's ready to just

4974
05:06:19,000 --> 05:06:21,279
go on, and a very key one at that. They're

4975
05:06:21,959 --> 05:06:27,040
you know, the managers in the managerial system.

4976
05:06:27,119 --> 05:06:30,040
Speaker 2: All right, let me, I'm pretty sure I'm finishing this

4977
05:06:30,200 --> 05:06:35,400
up with this last paragraph. Yep, all right, last paragraph.

4978
05:06:35,639 --> 05:06:37,720
At the time of writing, we are seeing all five

4979
05:06:37,759 --> 05:06:41,439
of these things in their nascent state. The political pressure

4980
05:06:41,439 --> 05:06:44,880
from the public unelected leaders due to the sheer unpopularity

4981
05:06:44,880 --> 05:06:49,400
of the policies enacted, may may eventually cause them to

4982
05:06:49,520 --> 05:06:54,799
break decisively with globalist elites. This remains likely so long

4983
05:06:54,840 --> 05:07:00,040
as nations maintain standing armies. Strong indications in France and

4984
05:07:00,080 --> 05:07:02,959
elsewhere seem to make it almost inevitable that there will

4985
05:07:03,000 --> 05:07:06,000
be at least there will at least be a nominal

4986
05:07:06,040 --> 05:07:11,040
struggle for national sovereignty against globalist overreach. The political capital

4987
05:07:11,080 --> 05:07:15,560
spent on the COVID nineteen pandemic will exacerbate this, especially

4988
05:07:15,599 --> 05:07:20,240
given the economic hardship it seems to be bringing. European

4989
05:07:20,279 --> 05:07:23,639
populations may have a stated preference to achieve net zero

4990
05:07:23,759 --> 05:07:27,520
carbon by twenty thirty, but in practice it is extremely

4991
05:07:27,599 --> 05:07:30,360
unlikely that elites will be able to push ahead with

4992
05:07:30,400 --> 05:07:35,560
their utopian visions without violent protests. As a situation worsens,

4993
05:07:36,200 --> 05:07:39,040
people will become more serious and organize. Having learned from

4994
05:07:39,080 --> 05:07:44,159
the populist experiences between twenty sixteen and twenty twenty. Elites,

4995
05:07:44,240 --> 05:07:47,599
of course, always have an option to reverse course in

4996
05:07:47,639 --> 05:07:50,959
a bid to reverse these trends, but one suspects that

4997
05:07:51,040 --> 05:07:53,880
they believe that they believe their own visions, which with

4998
05:07:54,000 --> 05:07:56,639
a missionary zeal, I don't know that I agree with that.

4999
05:07:57,599 --> 05:08:01,319
If they do not, the will to power is such

5000
05:08:01,400 --> 05:08:04,520
that their less forever greater control will not let up

5001
05:08:04,599 --> 05:08:08,240
until power is taken from them by a better organized

5002
05:08:08,279 --> 05:08:12,040
elite with a political formula better suited to the populations

5003
05:08:12,040 --> 05:08:15,319
they are supposed to serve. I strongly doubt that this

5004
05:08:15,439 --> 05:08:19,360
new elite, when they emerge, whether by democratic means or otherwise,

5005
05:08:19,799 --> 05:08:22,880
will be able to break decisively enough from liberal and

5006
05:08:22,959 --> 05:08:26,680
democratic myths to do what is necessary to keep Western

5007
05:08:26,759 --> 05:08:32,479
nations from experiencing certain disaster in the future. However, after

5008
05:08:32,639 --> 05:08:36,880
decades of chronic mismanagement from the current managers, perhaps all

5009
05:08:36,919 --> 05:08:40,319
we hope for is a vaguely sensible replacement for a

5010
05:08:40,319 --> 05:08:44,680
few years whose interests will be closer to those of

5011
05:08:45,360 --> 05:08:46,840
quote unquote the people.

5012
05:08:49,119 --> 05:08:52,279
Speaker 8: I wonder to what extent he still believes everything in

5013
05:08:52,279 --> 05:08:55,680
that paragraph, because I've seen academic agent, you know, put

5014
05:08:55,720 --> 05:08:59,599
forward his belief that they're sort of rolling back some

5015
05:08:59,639 --> 05:09:04,040
of the worlds aspects of green and woke and everything

5016
05:09:04,080 --> 05:09:06,240
in some of his studies of Tony's Blair. So I

5017
05:09:06,279 --> 05:09:09,119
wonder if he would I wonder if he would disagree

5018
05:09:09,360 --> 05:09:12,439
now with some of the things he wrote. There just

5019
05:09:12,479 --> 05:09:14,040
an interesting question to ask.

5020
05:09:15,040 --> 05:09:17,319
Speaker 1: Have you have either of you seen that the World

5021
05:09:17,479 --> 05:09:20,759
Economic Forum, one of the books that they recommend is

5022
05:09:22,040 --> 05:09:24,680
Robert doctor Robert Murphy's Modern Money Mechanics.

5023
05:09:24,799 --> 05:09:25,080
Speaker 5: Yeah.

5024
05:09:25,360 --> 05:09:30,279
Speaker 7: Yeah, but that is a good point, and I think

5025
05:09:30,400 --> 05:09:35,279
that almost everyone was sort of overestimating the extent that

5026
05:09:35,319 --> 05:09:41,439
they were just fully and plastically committed to going along

5027
05:09:41,520 --> 05:09:44,799
with everything that they've been pushing the elites, because all

5028
05:09:44,840 --> 05:09:48,159
it took was, you know, one threat like winter isn't

5029
05:09:48,200 --> 05:09:49,959
even here yet for most of Europe. It took one

5030
05:09:50,080 --> 05:09:55,200
threat of a winter of extreme discontent, and suddenly you

5031
05:09:55,279 --> 05:10:01,080
get various supposedly hardline green governments going back and redefining, saying, well,

5032
05:10:01,119 --> 05:10:04,040
I guess natural gas and nuclear power could be back

5033
05:10:04,040 --> 05:10:08,040
on the menu again there, I mean, mostly green, and

5034
05:10:08,080 --> 05:10:10,520
then you get all of a bunch of other I

5035
05:10:10,560 --> 05:10:15,599
believe it's sort of like the smaller countries, especially Denmark

5036
05:10:15,639 --> 05:10:17,799
comes to mind, where they're left wing party, fitting with

5037
05:10:18,599 --> 05:10:20,919
Fitting with sort of like the Danish left wing traditions

5038
05:10:21,319 --> 05:10:26,639
is taking this chaotic wave as an opportunity and starting

5039
05:10:26,680 --> 05:10:32,119
to close down their border again, trying to preserve Danish demographics,

5040
05:10:32,680 --> 05:10:34,680
even though I believe in the past you would have

5041
05:10:34,720 --> 05:10:37,959
a lot of these Danish left wing parties going out

5042
05:10:38,000 --> 05:10:41,319
in support of immigration because it's the popular thing to say.

5043
05:10:43,080 --> 05:10:45,200
You know, I think that a lot of people might

5044
05:10:45,240 --> 05:10:48,080
have overestimate, including potentially me. I don't quite remember what

5045
05:10:48,119 --> 05:10:51,520
I said on this topic for the last few months.

5046
05:10:51,720 --> 05:10:54,400
I think everyone might have overestimated the extent to which

5047
05:10:54,439 --> 05:10:57,080
they are committed the sort of missionary zeal that is

5048
05:10:57,639 --> 05:10:58,840
written in the book here.

5049
05:11:00,520 --> 05:11:04,639
Speaker 8: I want to add two because he mentioned something again

5050
05:11:04,680 --> 05:11:07,759
that's really important, which is understanding what the middle actually

5051
05:11:07,799 --> 05:11:11,119
is and the juvenile and model of high low versus middle.

5052
05:11:11,279 --> 05:11:14,319
Notice how he again frames the national governments as the

5053
05:11:14,360 --> 05:11:18,360
middle here, and it's really important to understand in that

5054
05:11:18,400 --> 05:11:22,000
frame that middle doesn't just mean middle class. In the

5055
05:11:22,639 --> 05:11:25,840
American system to some extent does map to that, but

5056
05:11:25,919 --> 05:11:29,959
it's a much concept than just the idea of middle class.

5057
05:11:31,080 --> 05:11:35,040
And that's just interesting too because it highlights the importance

5058
05:11:35,279 --> 05:11:39,680
of having national governments that are opposed to globalism, as

5059
05:11:40,040 --> 05:11:43,880
globalism is the final convergence of all the power centers

5060
05:11:44,000 --> 05:11:46,240
to the point where there will be no there'll be

5061
05:11:46,240 --> 05:11:49,279
nothing left to converge on. So that's a really important

5062
05:11:49,919 --> 05:11:52,159
point to consider, is that we need to make sure

5063
05:11:52,279 --> 05:11:58,919
our national governments are in fact not acting as not

5064
05:11:59,040 --> 05:12:02,439
acting complicitly in the globalist system, and are actually attempting

5065
05:12:02,479 --> 05:12:05,759
to act in the interest of the middle.

5066
05:12:07,360 --> 05:12:10,959
Speaker 1: Well, one of the interesting things about that last paragraph

5067
05:12:11,040 --> 05:12:16,799
is he talks about people basically growing weary of the

5068
05:12:16,799 --> 05:12:23,360
government and questioning the government and Ukraine north Stream too.

5069
05:12:24,240 --> 05:12:28,159
All this it's you know, Germany is looking like they're

5070
05:12:28,159 --> 05:12:31,759
going to have a very rough winter, although I've heard

5071
05:12:31,759 --> 05:12:34,720
that their reserves are only down like three percent, so

5072
05:12:35,720 --> 05:12:38,000
it looks like they can get through the winter, thankfully.

5073
05:12:38,439 --> 05:12:44,319
But there is hope. It's just one thing that you know,

5074
05:12:45,200 --> 05:12:49,360
you get from reading this book is Okay, so who

5075
05:12:49,439 --> 05:12:54,520
sweeps in as the hero of the day, who sweeps

5076
05:12:54,560 --> 05:12:58,599
into what elites are going to solve this problem? You know,

5077
05:12:59,439 --> 05:13:03,439
I've said I don't know publicly or privately, but seems

5078
05:13:03,479 --> 05:13:06,000
like really the one elite that I look at, who

5079
05:13:06,520 --> 05:13:09,680
seems to be the closest to being on our side,

5080
05:13:09,680 --> 05:13:11,919
and I don't trust him at all. Is Peter Teel.

5081
05:13:12,439 --> 05:13:14,759
He's the only one who's giving money to people that

5082
05:13:14,799 --> 05:13:19,919
we agree with and pushing certain ideas that I think

5083
05:13:20,279 --> 05:13:24,720
a Blake Masters is saying the right things. I mean,

5084
05:13:24,720 --> 05:13:28,119
he's been associated with Teal for a very very long time.

5085
05:13:28,279 --> 05:13:33,479
So yeah, I think the one thing that this book

5086
05:13:33,560 --> 05:13:39,599
really helps you to understand, and you can even mix

5087
05:13:39,639 --> 05:13:42,959
this in with Happa, is you're looking for elites. You're

5088
05:13:43,000 --> 05:13:47,520
looking for elites who are who share your values. And

5089
05:13:48,400 --> 05:13:50,439
I think that's the white pill from this book. The

5090
05:13:50,479 --> 05:13:54,959
white pill is that you don't have to start a revolution,

5091
05:13:55,159 --> 05:13:58,240
you don't have to pick up arms. That may happen

5092
05:13:59,040 --> 05:14:02,439
by default in certain areas, but the white pill is

5093
05:14:02,479 --> 05:14:06,759
you raise up the right people and you can have

5094
05:14:06,799 --> 05:14:08,959
what you want, and these people can be overthrown.

5095
05:14:09,880 --> 05:14:12,799
Speaker 8: And in terms of the national governments, again, one of

5096
05:14:12,840 --> 05:14:16,000
the interesting things that happened recently is you know, the

5097
05:14:16,040 --> 05:14:19,000
Nord Stream Too pipeline was destroyed, and it seems like

5098
05:14:19,159 --> 05:14:23,840
basically everybody just assumed the Americans did it, which would

5099
05:14:23,840 --> 05:14:28,360
be inconceivable safetime, right like that would be the last

5100
05:14:28,400 --> 05:14:30,520
thing you would think is that the Americans did it.

5101
05:14:30,520 --> 05:14:34,200
And now we have other American allies, so to speak,

5102
05:14:34,360 --> 05:14:38,000
basically just assuming, even if they don't state it out right,

5103
05:14:38,040 --> 05:14:42,319
that America was behind an act of terrorism essentially on

5104
05:14:42,439 --> 05:14:44,639
European countries.

5105
05:14:45,200 --> 05:14:48,000
Speaker 7: Ryan, I have unless you guys have anything else to

5106
05:14:48,040 --> 05:14:49,759
add on that topic, because I was going to switch

5107
05:14:49,799 --> 05:14:55,400
over so slightly. Alright, So he does mention in here

5108
05:14:55,479 --> 05:14:57,560
sort of like a black pill that he just slips

5109
05:14:57,599 --> 05:14:59,560
in right at the end of the conclusion. He says

5110
05:14:59,560 --> 05:15:02,479
he's strong doubts that a new elite, when they emerge,

5111
05:15:02,799 --> 05:15:05,959
for whatever means, will be able to break decisively enough

5112
05:15:05,959 --> 05:15:08,639
from these myths in order to save the West. Basically,

5113
05:15:10,959 --> 05:15:13,520
this is strange to me because I know he is

5114
05:15:13,720 --> 05:15:17,200
very well read on the Bolshevik movement in Russia, and

5115
05:15:17,279 --> 05:15:19,880
if you look at every single thing that they were

5116
05:15:19,919 --> 05:15:22,279
telling the populace, that they were telling the elites that

5117
05:15:22,319 --> 05:15:24,680
they got on side, that they were telling foreign governments,

5118
05:15:25,319 --> 05:15:28,400
it was absolutely nothing like what they actually had planned

5119
05:15:28,439 --> 05:15:31,919
and executed. There were some moments where they would go

5120
05:15:32,000 --> 05:15:34,479
out to the crowd and basically tell them directly what

5121
05:15:34,520 --> 05:15:36,119
they would do if they were in government, and they

5122
05:15:36,119 --> 05:15:40,200
actually came to pass, but there were just a quite frankly,

5123
05:15:40,240 --> 05:15:42,080
a lot of lies that they would throw out to people.

5124
05:15:43,159 --> 05:15:45,479
You know, it would be much more democratic. They promised

5125
05:15:45,560 --> 05:15:51,080
much more popular sovereign rule through Russia, which in reality,

5126
05:15:51,119 --> 05:15:54,400
they did absolutely everything they can because they that they could,

5127
05:15:54,439 --> 05:15:59,119
because they understood the system here, that this popular, this

5128
05:15:59,240 --> 05:16:03,159
popularly sovereign system that they implemented was absolutely under the control.

5129
05:16:03,560 --> 05:16:06,240
They knew how the game worked. But nonetheless they would

5130
05:16:06,240 --> 05:16:08,840
still promise to people it would be a golden democratic

5131
05:16:08,880 --> 05:16:14,599
age that would descend across Russia. So you can have

5132
05:16:14,680 --> 05:16:19,200
elites that can preach these myths in order to get

5133
05:16:19,279 --> 05:16:21,119
people on side and all of that, and you can

5134
05:16:21,159 --> 05:16:24,279
even paint the actions that they will take to look

5135
05:16:24,319 --> 05:16:27,680
like they are still following these popularly held myths that

5136
05:16:27,759 --> 05:16:31,240
you cannot break from with the population, but you can

5137
05:16:31,319 --> 05:16:36,639
still just completely contradict them through very i don't want

5138
05:16:36,639 --> 05:16:42,360
to say subversive means, but a sort of very hidden means,

5139
05:16:42,360 --> 05:16:47,159
if you will. Yeah, because everything that the Bolsheviks promised,

5140
05:16:47,159 --> 05:16:49,119
for instance, to keep with that definite, to keep with

5141
05:16:49,159 --> 05:16:53,799
that example, they did carry it out. They did bring

5142
05:16:53,840 --> 05:16:55,799
democracy to Russia and all of us. It's just that

5143
05:16:55,880 --> 05:16:58,599
they so knew the system they were going to work with,

5144
05:16:59,439 --> 05:17:03,560
that it was there was no choice, quite obviously, quite famously,

5145
05:17:04,119 --> 05:17:06,279
So you can do the same. I don't think this

5146
05:17:06,319 --> 05:17:08,439
is the black pill that he's making. It doubt to

5147
05:17:08,439 --> 05:17:09,240
be at the end here.

5148
05:17:10,720 --> 05:17:16,439
Speaker 1: I also think that people are starting to read things

5149
05:17:16,479 --> 05:17:18,360
that they haven't read in the past. You know, I've

5150
05:17:18,360 --> 05:17:23,599
heard Blake Masters talk about Ted Kaczynski and yeah, I

5151
05:17:23,639 --> 05:17:28,080
mean for somebody who's running for Senate to do that is,

5152
05:17:28,439 --> 05:17:32,159
you know. And I've actually seen a couple of right

5153
05:17:32,200 --> 05:17:39,680
wing voices talking about Yaki. So sure, maybe these people

5154
05:17:39,720 --> 05:17:42,000
aren't elite. I mean I think to me, a Blake

5155
05:17:42,080 --> 05:17:44,560
Masters is an elite. I look at him as for

5156
05:17:44,639 --> 05:17:46,479
better or for worse. I mean, we don't know who's

5157
05:17:47,599 --> 05:17:50,279
you don't really know it's in somebody's heart. But at

5158
05:17:50,360 --> 05:17:56,479
least these are people who are quoting you know, they're

5159
05:17:56,520 --> 05:18:01,159
not quoting Jonah Goldberg. You know, they're quoting people who

5160
05:18:01,400 --> 05:18:07,880
have who think differently and also who are able to

5161
05:18:08,040 --> 05:18:11,479
diagnose the problems of the day at a very deep level.

5162
05:18:15,159 --> 05:18:19,479
Speaker 7: Yeah, I entirely agree there. So, And not only do

5163
05:18:19,560 --> 05:18:21,720
we have that what you just mentioned, and not only

5164
05:18:21,720 --> 05:18:24,279
do we have what I just mentioned there, but our

5165
05:18:24,360 --> 05:18:27,840
side seems to be the only one actively courting competent people.

5166
05:18:30,240 --> 05:18:33,080
I think I never actually read or listened through this,

5167
05:18:33,279 --> 05:18:35,479
just because every single time the subject has come up,

5168
05:18:35,520 --> 05:18:38,439
I've been in exams or men terms. I think that's

5169
05:18:38,439 --> 05:18:40,840
the concept of the base draft. You know, get the

5170
05:18:40,919 --> 05:18:43,759
highly confident people that agree with you to just either

5171
05:18:43,840 --> 05:18:46,840
when they get kicked out of the industry, or coerce

5172
05:18:46,880 --> 05:18:49,040
them to leave the era. Sorry, convince them to leave

5173
05:18:49,040 --> 05:18:51,959
the industry. You know, you will have the only confident

5174
05:18:51,959 --> 05:18:57,119
people left. And it doesn't matter how technically or on paper,

5175
05:18:57,319 --> 05:19:00,599
how well positioned your elites currently are. If they're your enemy,

5176
05:19:00,959 --> 05:19:03,520
if they're incompetent, they are just going to fall apart.

5177
05:19:03,919 --> 05:19:05,720
You know, if they can't play the game, if they

5178
05:19:05,759 --> 05:19:08,959
cannot secure their position, if they can't use their position,

5179
05:19:09,040 --> 05:19:14,520
they can't stay there. Especially if you're better, someone always is.

5180
05:19:14,720 --> 05:19:17,479
So that's the that's the sort of three things I

5181
05:19:17,479 --> 05:19:20,840
would use to repudiate this hidden black pill that he

5182
05:19:20,959 --> 05:19:23,759
just throws in at this very last paragraph of the book.

5183
05:19:25,279 --> 05:19:28,040
Speaker 8: Yeah, well, I guess in order to back up the

5184
05:19:28,080 --> 05:19:31,919
black pill, one thing I don't see happening in terms

5185
05:19:31,959 --> 05:19:35,279
of this based draft is the coup locks or the

5186
05:19:35,279 --> 05:19:38,200
middle or really just not organized, not organizing at all.

5187
05:19:38,799 --> 05:19:42,040
That's really the mission right now, I think for people

5188
05:19:42,119 --> 05:19:45,759
like us is to actually get that organization kickstarted, because

5189
05:19:45,759 --> 05:19:50,720
it's really not happening. And sort of all agreeing on

5190
05:19:50,840 --> 05:19:57,159
ideas and meeting and having streams like this isn't organization, right.

5191
05:19:57,279 --> 05:19:59,919
I mean, it's it's sort of leading in that direction.

5192
05:20:00,240 --> 05:20:07,200
But actual real organization is when you have a group

5193
05:20:07,240 --> 05:20:11,759
of elites actually leading some sort of minority and aggregating

5194
05:20:11,840 --> 05:20:16,159
their ability to exercise influence, be that through money or

5195
05:20:16,200 --> 05:20:19,119
some sort of social position they have. You actually have

5196
05:20:19,200 --> 05:20:26,520
to have an elite utilizing that collective people power, and

5197
05:20:26,560 --> 05:20:30,159
we really don't have that happening at all. We have

5198
05:20:30,400 --> 05:20:35,520
a sort of intellectual elite who do streams like this, right,

5199
05:20:35,639 --> 05:20:39,639
but that's a far cry from actually organizing any of

5200
05:20:39,720 --> 05:20:42,479
the people who might be listening right now.

5201
05:20:43,560 --> 05:20:46,439
Speaker 7: Right at least not officially, we don't have people actively

5202
05:20:46,479 --> 05:20:49,360
taking stock of what talents do we have, what resources

5203
05:20:49,400 --> 05:20:53,040
do we have, what money do we have available? And also,

5204
05:20:53,080 --> 05:20:55,279
again at least not officially, we don't have people saying,

5205
05:20:55,360 --> 05:20:57,159
on this date, we are going to do this at

5206
05:20:57,159 --> 05:21:00,759
this location, we don't have actual plans being organized and

5207
05:21:00,799 --> 05:21:05,919
carried out and execute we If you took it so broadly,

5208
05:21:06,000 --> 05:21:08,119
you can say that's happening on these streams. But then

5209
05:21:08,159 --> 05:21:10,479
the definition is so broad it doesn't mean anything because

5210
05:21:10,520 --> 05:21:14,279
these streams aren't actually you know, we aren't showing up

5211
05:21:14,279 --> 05:21:16,520
to these streams with the intention and talking about how

5212
05:21:16,560 --> 05:21:19,560
we're going to win feasible power at this location at

5213
05:21:19,560 --> 05:21:23,520
this time for this purpose. That would be absolutely brilliant

5214
05:21:23,599 --> 05:21:25,759
to do, but it's not quite what we're geared towards.

5215
05:21:25,799 --> 05:21:27,680
It's not what audiences want and all that, and it's

5216
05:21:27,680 --> 05:21:31,479
not our purpose here quite frankly. So whenever we talk

5217
05:21:31,520 --> 05:21:34,279
about we need people to actively organize, it means on

5218
05:21:34,360 --> 05:21:37,040
that level, be it sort of at the project head,

5219
05:21:37,159 --> 05:21:39,360
sort of like the grand planning, or at sort of

5220
05:21:39,400 --> 05:21:42,240
like the to use corporate language, the team level. You

5221
05:21:42,319 --> 05:21:44,680
know your five people, how do you get how do

5222
05:21:44,720 --> 05:21:47,599
you keep this plan in motion? You know what can

5223
05:21:47,639 --> 05:21:48,439
the six of you do?

5224
05:21:49,360 --> 05:21:54,279
Speaker 1: So it's hard when you when the Pagans and the

5225
05:21:54,400 --> 05:21:58,520
Christians are fighting against each other, and then the Protestants

5226
05:21:58,560 --> 05:22:01,319
and the Catholics are fighting against each other. We have

5227
05:22:01,360 --> 05:22:05,200
a pretty good example of people who put their put

5228
05:22:05,200 --> 05:22:08,400
their religious differences aside to come together and defeat a

5229
05:22:08,439 --> 05:22:13,200
force in their country. Well except one religion that they

5230
05:22:13,240 --> 05:22:17,080
that had to go. But they came together and they

5231
05:22:17,119 --> 05:22:20,880
just said, well, we have a foe here, and it's

5232
05:22:20,919 --> 05:22:24,759
it's more important then, it's it's more important than our

5233
05:22:26,040 --> 05:22:29,520
than our religious differences than we need to come together.

5234
05:22:29,720 --> 05:22:33,319
And the more the more I see that the fighting

5235
05:22:33,560 --> 05:22:34,000
just over.

5236
05:22:34,119 --> 05:22:35,240
Speaker 2: Oh well, the.

5237
05:22:35,200 --> 05:22:37,240
Speaker 1: Pagans are like, well, look what Christians have done in

5238
05:22:37,240 --> 05:22:38,919
the past, and Christians like, oh, look what Pagans have

5239
05:22:39,000 --> 05:22:41,919
done in the past, look at the children that are

5240
05:22:41,919 --> 05:22:42,720
being sacrificed.

5241
05:22:42,720 --> 05:22:45,799
Speaker 3: Now, on this note, I.

5242
05:22:45,759 --> 05:22:48,159
Speaker 8: Would put forward that it might be the case that

5243
05:22:48,240 --> 05:22:52,639
certain enterprising Americans are actually working to tackle this problem

5244
05:22:52,720 --> 05:22:55,680
more directly in the near future. So maybe pay attention

5245
05:22:55,759 --> 05:22:58,560
to this fhere if you're interested in that.

5246
05:23:00,520 --> 05:23:00,919
Speaker 2: Very much.

5247
05:23:00,959 --> 05:23:03,200
Speaker 1: So yes, all right, I'll give each of you a

5248
05:23:03,319 --> 05:23:06,840
chance to say a last word if you want, and

5249
05:23:06,880 --> 05:23:07,919
promote anything you want.

5250
05:23:08,000 --> 05:23:09,200
Speaker 2: So Ryan good.

5251
05:23:09,279 --> 05:23:15,880
Speaker 7: First, Well, just to summarize my thoughts about the book,

5252
05:23:16,560 --> 05:23:19,119
and you know, I probably could do a much deeper

5253
05:23:19,159 --> 05:23:21,360
reading that doesn't have to be done in the course

5254
05:23:21,400 --> 05:23:23,040
of a couple of days or so, but I was

5255
05:23:23,279 --> 05:23:26,599
genuinely very impressed, and I had a feeling I would

5256
05:23:27,080 --> 05:23:30,479
be coming out and saying that. But it reads very clearly,

5257
05:23:30,880 --> 05:23:34,680
there's very precise, very direct, the definitions aren't vague, and

5258
05:23:34,720 --> 05:23:39,759
it's a it's genuinely uh, I want to say, entertaining,

5259
05:23:39,799 --> 05:23:43,080
But it's fulfilling to read. It's so great book. Go

5260
05:23:43,200 --> 05:23:45,959
read it, easy to find, easy to pay for, and

5261
05:23:46,000 --> 05:23:49,599
contribute to a person that most definitely is acting in

5262
05:23:49,639 --> 05:23:51,919
your interest at least ninety five percent of the time,

5263
05:23:54,680 --> 05:23:58,880
that is safe a friend. And with that being said,

5264
05:23:58,919 --> 05:24:00,919
though with a lot of the things that the being

5265
05:24:01,119 --> 05:24:04,080
that are being articulated in this book, you might go

5266
05:24:04,159 --> 05:24:06,599
into it thinking that it is just a one giant

5267
05:24:06,599 --> 05:24:09,400
black pill. You know, you have to use shadowy means

5268
05:24:09,400 --> 05:24:12,200
to fight these shadowy elites that are in these official

5269
05:24:12,240 --> 05:24:16,599
position positions that can't be assaulted. It's not that there's

5270
05:24:16,639 --> 05:24:18,919
a lot of a He does a good job at

5271
05:24:18,919 --> 05:24:23,000
making this just cold practicality. You can go home and

5272
05:24:23,240 --> 05:24:27,240
use this, uh, this book that we just read to

5273
05:24:27,400 --> 05:24:31,000
your advantage. Uh, not like in some sort of psychopathic

5274
05:24:31,119 --> 05:24:35,119
Machiabellian sense, like go get a promotion at work. But uh,

5275
05:24:36,040 --> 05:24:37,919
you know, you can use this to actually see what's

5276
05:24:37,959 --> 05:24:41,279
going on in politics and do something yourself, because a

5277
05:24:41,319 --> 05:24:43,119
lot of the people that we have in our sphere

5278
05:24:43,360 --> 05:24:47,159
would be absolutely perfect to do these political organizations that

5279
05:24:47,240 --> 05:24:49,799
we keep talking about. We just don't get, probably because

5280
05:24:49,840 --> 05:24:51,919
we don't know how to we're scared to move first

5281
05:24:51,959 --> 05:24:55,599
something like that. It's not that difficult. This book makes

5282
05:24:55,599 --> 05:24:59,360
out abundantly clear that you just need to be competent.

5283
05:24:59,520 --> 05:25:02,080
We have competent people. You need to be tightly organized.

5284
05:25:02,119 --> 05:25:04,400
That is definitely very possible. You need to have a

5285
05:25:04,400 --> 05:25:07,599
political formula that's and that's not beyond us to come

5286
05:25:07,680 --> 05:25:09,919
up with. If we don't just choose one that's out

5287
05:25:09,959 --> 05:25:16,080
there already, so our situation is it could be infinitely worse.

5288
05:25:16,919 --> 05:25:19,840
We have everything we need, We have everything that we

5289
05:25:20,520 --> 05:25:22,840
can organize with. All we just need to do now

5290
05:25:23,080 --> 05:25:29,080
is act, really act and plan and execute. So that's

5291
05:25:29,360 --> 05:25:32,799
that's my final thoughts really, especially since we're doing the conclusion.

5292
05:25:34,720 --> 05:25:38,319
Speaker 8: Charles, I must say that there was a moment about

5293
05:25:38,319 --> 05:25:40,119
a third of the way through the book where I

5294
05:25:40,279 --> 05:25:43,080
just thought, Wow, this is an absolutely stellar book, which

5295
05:25:43,119 --> 05:25:47,479
is actually pretty rare. This is an excellent scholarly work.

5296
05:25:47,680 --> 05:25:51,000
It's well sourced. The bibliography, the all important bibliography is

5297
05:25:51,119 --> 05:25:54,759
stuff full of references. Don't let the size of the

5298
05:25:54,759 --> 05:25:58,159
book to see view it's small, but actually compressing the

5299
05:25:58,159 --> 05:26:02,720
core ideas of all of the intellectuals into a short,

5300
05:26:02,919 --> 05:26:07,360
readable form that really delivers the core concepts from all

5301
05:26:07,400 --> 05:26:11,599
these works, these tens of thousands of pages of works,

5302
05:26:12,599 --> 05:26:17,279
is a huge achievement. This is absolutely a book that

5303
05:26:17,959 --> 05:26:21,319
you should read and buy. I'm actually thinking about buying

5304
05:26:21,360 --> 05:26:24,520
ten copies and handing them out at my local city

5305
05:26:24,520 --> 05:26:27,279
council because the book is really that good. I mean,

5306
05:26:27,720 --> 05:26:29,560
it's only a little more than one hundred pages. You

5307
05:26:29,599 --> 05:26:31,919
can read it in one setting if you want, and

5308
05:26:33,119 --> 05:26:39,040
it is actually amazing that Nima Parvini was able to

5309
05:26:40,560 --> 05:26:43,159
do what he did in this book and compress all

5310
05:26:43,159 --> 05:26:47,959
of these enormous texts into something very concise that has

5311
05:26:48,000 --> 05:26:52,840
a very clear narrative from beginning to the end. So yeah,

5312
05:26:53,319 --> 05:26:56,119
I'm not just saying that because he's a friend, and

5313
05:26:56,439 --> 05:27:00,840
it really is an excellent work. It might be in

5314
05:27:00,919 --> 05:27:04,599
a technical level, the best book that Imperium Press actually

5315
05:27:04,680 --> 05:27:08,759
has on their site. So yeah, I found it remarkable.

5316
05:27:09,840 --> 05:27:14,439
Speaker 1: And thank Mike from Imperium Press for not only publishing

5317
05:27:14,520 --> 05:27:19,720
this book, for publishing a host of amazing books and

5318
05:27:19,799 --> 05:27:25,880
being able to put works together into you know, like

5319
05:27:26,919 --> 05:27:30,200
Demeestros Volume one, to be able to put all the

5320
05:27:30,240 --> 05:27:34,240
most important writings into one. He's doing amazing work over there.

5321
05:27:35,080 --> 05:27:38,040
Do you have anything to plug, Charlie, I.

5322
05:27:38,040 --> 05:27:41,720
Speaker 8: Would just check out my substack. I'm doing my my

5323
05:27:41,880 --> 05:27:45,439
book notes series and just publishing on there regularly. I

5324
05:27:45,479 --> 05:27:48,240
have uploaded a couple of short videos to my YouTube

5325
05:27:48,319 --> 05:27:51,400
channel lately. But yeah, if you want to support me financially,

5326
05:27:51,439 --> 05:27:52,840
the substack is the place.

5327
05:27:52,599 --> 05:27:53,119
Speaker 3: To go for that.

5328
05:27:53,360 --> 05:27:56,200
Speaker 8: And I do try to put out worthwhile content for

5329
05:27:56,240 --> 05:27:59,560
the readers there. And I'm just I'm just finishing up

5330
05:27:59,599 --> 05:28:04,919
my c I a theme which I is basically all

5331
05:28:04,959 --> 05:28:09,759
composed of books that Thomas seven seven recommended, which were

5332
05:28:09,759 --> 05:28:12,240
all very good. So if you're interested in a learning

5333
05:28:12,240 --> 05:28:14,840
about the history of the CIA, I'm about to publish

5334
05:28:14,840 --> 05:28:18,240
the fourth article, the fourth paid article on my sub

5335
05:28:18,279 --> 05:28:22,000
stack in a week or two, So Charlemagne dot substack

5336
05:28:22,040 --> 05:28:23,680
dot com.

5337
05:28:23,919 --> 05:28:27,919
Speaker 1: Awesome, All right, gentlemen, thank you very much for joining me.

5338
05:28:28,240 --> 05:28:33,560
And this this was great love, not as an insults

5339
05:28:33,599 --> 05:28:36,439
at all. This was way beyond my expectations.

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05:28:36,439 --> 05:28:38,119
Speaker 2: This was freaking amazing. Thank you,