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Speaker 1: Today's episode of The Trip Cast is sponsored by the

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Safer Texas Alliance and the Beer Alliance of Texas. Welcome

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to the Trip Cast. I'm Eleanor Clibanoff, women's health reporter

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here with my colleague Jasper Sharer. Share. Yeah, every time

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I panic share.

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Speaker 2: Good.

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Speaker 1: Okay, that's spot on coming from clib and Off. That's yeah.

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Very excited to have you here. Jasper has been gone.

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Speaker 2: It's good. Good. Happy to talk THHC and uh Dan Patrick,

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I feel like that's been occupying a lot of my

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my coverage lately.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, but before we start, I know, and you

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had like a really specific topic you wanted to get

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into on this. You've been deeply watching Megan Markle's new

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show on Netflix. You wanted to offer some thoughts on

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that to the audience. Uh.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that's we were definitely talking about that before

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and I yeah, you had to cut me off because

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I was just droning on and on about that. So

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glad you put me on the spot. Thank you very much.

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Speaker 1: You're welcome. Yes, that was our April Fool's joke. We

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had a long debate in the office before you showed up.

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And this is why you should never show up. Moments

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before the trip cast, I brought that on much about

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what we could use to prank you. Original I was

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going to ask you to do a deep analysis between

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the House and the Senate budget comparison, and Rebecca or

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our managing editor for Enterprise and Politics, was like, he

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would just do it. Yeah, he would just offer it

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and then you won't be able to get him to stop,

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and that's not that fun.

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Speaker 2: I think Rebecca's instincts were probably yeah correct on that.

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Speaker 1: We're like, what politics topic can we talk ask Hi about?

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That would panic him? And I don't think there's anything.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it was so out of bounds that

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I knew there was something going on. But no, I

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feel like you always have something up your sleeve, as.

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Speaker 1: Even on April Fool's Day. Yeah, yeah we are. Are

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you a big April Fools guy? You know?

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't say so. I'm kind of just, but I

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always appreciate it, you know, especially if I'm like, you know,

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the butt of the joke, like I'm just if someone

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else wants to have fun with it, I'm all for it.

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Speaker 1: I love that. Yeah. My college roommate and now one

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of my best friends is like very into it, and

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you're like, oh, there's a there's a fine line. I'm

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not good at pranks because I go too far or

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not far enough. She in college would be like, can

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you call my parents and be like, I haven't seen

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we haven't heard from her in three days. I'd be like, no, no, yeah,

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there doing that.

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Speaker 2: There is a line. I feel like you did not

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cross it though with them got close.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't even Yeah. Also Rebecca was like, I bet

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Jasper has seen that show. I might have opinions on it.

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Speaker 2: Are we talking about We're not.

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Speaker 1: We're not talking about suits. We're talking about her new

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very controversial, not very controversial, her new somewhat U discussed

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show about her it's not actually even in her home,

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but allegedly in her home.

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Speaker 2: I have heard some some griping though about the authenticity

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of it.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, well that's not what we're here to discuss, unfortunately,

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or the budget, thank god. But we are here to

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talk about a very important topic, as you alluded to,

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a huge conversation in the Texas legislature this session, which

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is about the regulation or perhaps banning of THHC products.

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We are joined for this conversation by Heather Fazio, the

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director of the Texas Cannabis Policy Center, which advocates for

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expanded access to medical cannabis, supports statewide cannabis decriminalization, and

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notably for this episode, is opposed to the what's been

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called Senate Bill three, the ban on THHC products. Heather,

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thank you for joining us, so glad to be here.

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Thank you. Are you a prank person?

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Speaker 3: Not much, but I do appreciate a good one.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So before we get into like talking about

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Senate Bill three and THHC and all of that, maybe

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you can just give us the lay of the land

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on like Texas's cannabis laws. Generally speaking, where do we

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stand in Texas?

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Speaker 3: A lot has changed in the ten years that we've

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been doing this work. From over seventy five thousand people

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being arrested every year when we started to numbers plummeting.

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Now seeing I say, only twenty thousand our fewer than

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it used to be. Twenty thousand too many, though, in

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my opinion, we've also and the results of that, not

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only because sentiments are changing with district attorneys, but also

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city councils passing resolutions or ordinances forbidding their police officers

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from arresting people. They understand that it's not worth the

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resources that go into it. Plus, saddling people with criminal

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records really causes so much harm, and so we've seen

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that changing locally, piece by piece, creating a patchwork policy

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across the state. I think that's why there's more of

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an appetite for decriminalization. We've seen it pass in the House.

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Of course, the Senate spend more of a challenge. But

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then we have medical that's been expanded several times since

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it was originally enacted. And now we have this flourishing

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hemp industry that has really brought us about to the

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THHC conversation in a different way than we expected.

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Speaker 1: Jasper talked to us little about DHC, like, how did

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we get here? Take us back in time a couple

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of years when this all started blowing up.

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Speaker 2: Well, a lot of this is it can get technical,

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just when you get down to the distinctions between you know,

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delta eight and delta nine, which is sort of at

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the root of why we're having this conversation. But essentially

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this goes back to the twenty eighteen Federal Farm Bill

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that authorized and sort of gave the green light for

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states to authorize you know, consumable hemp products, which is

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what Texas followed suit and did in twenty nineteen. You know,

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the authors behind that bill have been you know, basically

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they've expressed that their intent was not to create this

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this sort of explosion of you know, we're at over

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eight thousand licensed temp retailers now and you know Dan

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Patrick who signed off on that at bill, Charles Perry,

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the author in the Senate who is now leading the

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charge on SB three, as you referenced earlier, that has

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sort of been their main talking point that you know,

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they this was more just intended to be, you know,

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an agriculture based bill. It was not supposed to green

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light all these these products. But you know, as as

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I'm sure we'll discuss, there is also this this countervailing

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point that a lot of folks have become just accustomed

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to and and sort of come to rely on these

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these products, and some of the pushback has come to

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this proposed ban has come even from you know, like

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veteran groups who you know, folks who are using these

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hemp products for you know, even even medicinal reasons, because

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the state's medical program is so is so limited, so

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a lot of nuance to this discussion. And yeah, also

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I think it's hard to predict where this is going

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just because of, you know, the differences between the House

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and Senate. So it's kind of been a fascinating political

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issue to observe.

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Speaker 1: Right, So to summarize twenty eighteen federal green light, twenty nineteen,

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Texas green lights right twenty twenty five, either a yellow

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light or a red light, we assume, and we're going

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to get more into the specifics, but the House is

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sort of seems to be pushing more of a yellow

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light regulation. Let's like pump the brakes a little bit.

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How Senate seems to be pushing more slam on the brakes.

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This is over. There's a great quote in I think

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it was a Senate committee hearing about this where Charles

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Perry said, you know who's the senator who who carried

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the twenty nineteen bill and is now carrying the bill

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to ban these products. He said, I told these retailers,

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if you guys screw this up by being cute and

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getting people high off of it, there will be consequences.

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Appointed But I'm not surprised that we're here today. Which

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is funny to me because it's also what your parents

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would say to you if you got high in high school.

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Speaker 2: You just tell the tone of disappointment in his voice.

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Yeah right.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if he has kids, but it has

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that vibe for sure. He has kids and is used

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to lecturing them about there.

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Speaker 2: Trying to temporary or permanently ground the industry.

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Speaker 1: Yeah right, Yeah, So you know this industry in between

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twenty nineteen and now, this industry has popped up. This

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is flourished. We've seen, you know, part in the pun

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the highs and lows of this heather. It tell us

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little bit about you know where the industry stands now.

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Speaker 3: Sure, well it's been six years since the original legislation

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paths that enabled this. We did get talked about in

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terms of industrial applications of this plant, which we certainly

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hope to see really take off as investments to catch

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up and there becomes more consumer demand for things like

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hemp paper and hemp rope things like that. But there

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also was that kind of tangent of CBD and consumable

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hemp products, and that's what the Department of State Health

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Services understood their task to be. But because of the

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way the law was written. Ultimately, THHC products have made

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their way legally to the market, and the Department of

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State Health Services really hasn't ever caught up to regulating

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this industry effectively. There are rules on the books at

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the federal and the state level. It's regulated by multiple agencies.

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So it's really silly when we hear this as an

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unregulated industry. It certainly is regulated, but it's not being

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enforced adequately by our state government. So we need them

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to step up to the plate to make sure that

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we're holding bad actors accountable, because while there are many

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good actors, high quality products on the market, there are

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bad actors flying under the regulatory radar, and that's our

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biggest concern, right.

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Speaker 1: I mean it is. I mean, we talked about this

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a lot on this podcast that, like on almost every issue, right,

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there is some area of agreement, there's a real disagreement

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on how to what to do with that. Once we

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agree on that, right, Like both sides of this sort

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of agree that there may be too unfed like the

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access to these consumable hemp products, these THHC products may

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be too unfettered. Right, there are people who are like

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children are able to, you know, walk into a store

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and buy these like they There's many of these products

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that are sort of modeled to look like candy products

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or to look like something you would want to have

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if you were a child, and there's like insufficient age

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regulate or age monitoring, there's insufficient consequences maybe for people

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who are trying to As you said, Flanner, the radar.

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Speaker 3: Is that right, absolutely, and those are the types of

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regulations that have been we've been asking for for some

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time now. The legislature has fallen short two sessions now

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since the original legalization of HEMP to institute these kinds

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of regulations, and so now there's this sense of urgency,

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some heresy going on, you know, and just such strong

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language being used to demonize this industry that many of

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which are really wanting to see that kind of regulation,

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because of course, nobody wants to see young people having

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access to THHC. That never would have been on the

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table for consideration if we were sitting down and having

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an adult conversation about these policies. The lawmakers, especially our

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publican leaders, have been putting there, keeping us at hands

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arm's length and not allowing this meaningful conversation about how

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do we do this right. We know that prohibition does

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not work. It doesn't keep it out of the hands

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of young people, it doesn't make sure that we have

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safe products on the market, it doesn't ensure consumer protection,

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and so of course that's why we'd like to see

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regulation as an alternative to prohibition so we can actually

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get a good grip of this industry.

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Speaker 2: I was kind of curious what you make of, you know,

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the Tenant governor's comments, and you know, I think Senator

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Perry has said something to this effect too, just that

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sort of the opposite of what you're saying about prohibition,

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that it's you know, they don't feel that that regulation

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is is possible. Essentially that they feel we've got to

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push for a full ban, you know, like more regulation

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is great, but at the end of the day, this

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needs to be a band because it's not going to

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be possible to you know, adequately oversee the industry. You know,

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I don't know exactly how they've phrased it, but I kind.

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Speaker 1: Of said to exactly how you phrases you just can't

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regulate it. You've got to take it out. You're never

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going to be able to regulate it, right.

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Speaker 2: I'm curious what you make of that well, and for me,

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it just seems totally flipped.

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Speaker 3: You cannot prohibit these products. Even under policies of prohibition,

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people still have access to them. These are federally legal

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products that are prevalent across the country, and we're going

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to be rounding people up and arresting them and charging

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them a class A misdemeanors when we putting people in

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jail for up to a year for the possession of

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these hemp products. I mean, it just doesn't seem feasible.

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This cat isn't going back in the bag. And really

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what they're doing is said putting themselves in a corner

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and setting us up to have nothing pass, which means

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we don't get those age restrictions in place, we don't

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get the types of restrictions on advertising and packaging to

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stop appealing to kids. We don't get more resources and

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a green light for the regulatory agency to step in

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and start really enforcing the rules that are on the books.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there's an argument you made right that like

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the industry will sort of respond to. Right, if there's

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a total ban, there's like less incentive. I mean, particularly

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with the state the size of Texas to be producing

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these products that are so appealing to children or so

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appealing to that demographic. I mean, this is slightly different

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in some ways than you know, just marijuana decriminalization, right, Like,

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there's differences in how we might be able to regulate

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versus prohibit this newish industry.

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Speaker 3: Sure well, I mean the question is do we want

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to be able to make sure that products that are

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available in the state, that exist in the state are

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tested and labeled. Is that a priority, as consumer safety

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a priority? Or do we just want to hand this

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market over to the illicit industry because somebody is going

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to be profiting off of this. Is it going to

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be those willing to break the law and traffic the

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products in or is it going to be licensed and

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regulated business owners who have an incentive to comply with

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the law. You know, many of the people operating now

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are complying with the law. The law just simply isn't

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sufficient to get us where we need to go.

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Speaker 1: Are there states that have successfully regulated this?

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Speaker 3: In your opinion, I think that this is We're in

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a really unique position here in Texas because the states

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that have you know, Senator Perry has talked about how

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California and New York have banned these products, but really

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what they did is pull them into their already regulated

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cannabis industries. We don't have that here. We have a

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very much struggling medical cannabis program and we have no

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adult use program for THHC. So we don't have a

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place for this to go. We need to create a

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lane so that this can be controlled through the state

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with reasonable regulations.

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Speaker 2: I'm wondering if you've had much conversation with folks in

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the House just to get a sense of how much

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appetite there is for a full ban as opposed to

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you know, how I guess committed that that chamber is

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to pursuing the regulations. I mean, it's for me, it's

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it's been hard to get folks to you know, talk

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on the record or really I mean sort of my

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starting point here is just looking at what has been

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in there, the bill that they've presented. But curious if

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you've had any you know, conversations to get a better

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sense of, you know, where the House might be headed

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on this.

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Speaker 3: Well, they're certainly behind schedule in the House. Things are

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moving slowly getting out of there with new leadership, some

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challenges with that, and we're just really getting the ball

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rolling on the House side of things. But I can

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tell you from my conversations and conversations from our allies

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with legislative offices, including Republican offices who have supported decriminalization

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in the past, medical expansion in the past, you're right

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there is not an appetite in the House for outright prohibition.

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They know that that's not the right way to go.

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Now what is the right way to go? That's up

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for us as advocates to help illuminate a path that

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makes sense for regulation. And now in the State Affairs Committee,

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there are three different bills that are sitting on their

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table ready for a hearing. We've got Senate Bill three,

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outright prohibition. We've got House Built twenty eight, which is

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Chairman King's bill, which prohibits a lot. It's not a

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great bill, but it doesn't prohibit everything entirely, which is good.

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And then we have a Representative Kines House Bill forty

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two forty two, which is a regulatory bill rather than prohibition.

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So we've got the options on the table now, and

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State Affairs is going to be considering that.

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Speaker 1: You know, the House holds a lot of power here, right,

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I mean, the Senate has been very clear about what

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they want. They've passed this, it sits before the House.

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Like you said, they have a series of choices. The

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Senate does, or at least Lieutenant Governor Dan Patrick believes

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he has sort of a break glass in case of

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emergency approach. If this doesn't pass. He has said he

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is willing to go to a special session, which is

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actually not his purview to call, but he has said,

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you know, basically he will use the tools he has

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available to him to force a special session if this

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doesn't pass. He has he told the Texas Tribune Jasper,

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there aren't many things you go down that path for,

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but the life and health of people is one I

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couldn't in good conscience leave here and knowing if we

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don't do something about the next two years, how many

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kids get sick? Jasper? Talk about you know how that

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might play out if he does decide to if the

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House doesn't pass what he wants and he decides to

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sort of break class.

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Speaker 2: Well, this is something that he has He's gone down

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this road in multiple sessions before, or at least has

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sort of used this as like a potential bargaining chip,

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and in recent sessions when he's made this threat, he

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hasn't needed to force Governor Abbott to call a special

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session because they have both agreed that the session was necessary.

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But going back to twenty seventeen as a model, you know,

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as you said, the Lieutenant governor does not have the

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power himself to call a special session, but he could

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hold up, for instance, the state budget that is the

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only item that the legislature is constitutionally obligated to pass

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every session. And that's just sort of the most obvious, uh,

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I guess, hostage potential for Dan Patrick, which as Lieutenant

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governor he has the power to prevent anything he wants

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from coming to the floor. So there's the state budget

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that could be held up. There are you know, what

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are known as sunset bills to continue the life of

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key agency State agencies like the Texas Department of Criminal

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Justice is up for sunset review, so kind of need

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the you know, that one to keep going in some form.

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So a lot of potential there and it you know,

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it could get messy and you know, spill over into

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other business that's completely unrelated to THHC IF if we

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do end up going down that road.

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Speaker 1: Right because Governor Abbott has not been as clear spoken

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about this, right like last year when we had special

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or last session when we had special sessions on vouchers

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for example, Like that's something Dan Patrick did not need

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to you know, some in that much political capital to

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get Governor Abbott to call that. Governor Abbott has said,

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like he's basically said like he's waiting to see what

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the legislature gives him, right, Yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Which I mean is I think unless it's an issue

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that he's really you know, come out proactively on, that

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is kind of standard operating procedure for him, I think.

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And you know, we've we also haven't heard a ton from,

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if anything, from Speaker Burroughs on the issue. So I

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think at one of his recent press conferences, Patrick was

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saying basically he was sort of speaking on behalf of

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the rest of the Big Three, saying, you know, we've

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met at our breakfast and I think we're all on

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the same page, but we have not heard it directly

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from from the Governor's mouth how he feels on this. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Well, and his bully tacked and coercives coercive strategy works

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in the Senate every time, but it's having less of

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an influence on the people's House. In Texas, they're much

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more closely related to the House or to their constituents,

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and that's why they are wanting to reflect The polling

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numbers would show that sixty two to sixty eight percent

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of Texans want to see these products regulated and available

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for adult use. So hopefully that prevails this session and

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they stick to the people that elected them rather than

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this top down, coercive strategy that is being really pushed

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on them by the other chamber.

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about a little bit more about

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this sort of Republican divide on this issue. Sorry, but

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before we do that, let's take a quick break and

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00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:45,079
think our sponsors. The Safer Texas Alliance supports SB three,

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00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:49,680
advocating for responsible THC policies that protect public health and safety.

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00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:53,519
Explore it's Safertexas Alliance dot com and the Beer Alliance

399
00:20:53,519 --> 00:20:57,000
of Texas. SB three puts public health over profits by

400
00:20:57,039 --> 00:21:00,039
banning consumable THC HEMP products in the state, and the

401
00:21:00,039 --> 00:21:02,480
Beer Alliance of Texas is proud to support this legislation.

402
00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:05,759
Learn more at Beer Alliance dot com. So you know

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00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:08,640
this is like, I think that alone speaks to like

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this is a divisive issue that's getting a lot of attention.

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People are sort of taking sides. It's certainly forming another

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thing we talked about a lot on this podcast, which

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is that when you are essentially a one party state

408
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for so long, you start to see sort of cracks

409
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in the you know, we can't all agree on everything

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all the time, and this is certainly playing out that way.

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I mean, even the fact that the very Republican Texas

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legislature is debating do we ban or do we regulate

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two things that party doesn't tend to love to do,

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is notable. I mean, Jasper lay out a little bit

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the you know, factions here on this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think it's some of it. It's

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not as clear cut factionally as you know, maybe some

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other issues, like when you think about vouchers, it's you know,

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very much like a rural or been divide among Republicans.

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But you know, I do think generally and sure you

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have thoughts on this too, just it's you know, thinking

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about the Libertarian Party had some representation testifying against SB

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three the other week, and you know, just sort of

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that side of the party and some of the even

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folks I would put in the farther right end of

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the spectrum. You mentioned Representative Kine's bill. You know, I

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think he's kind of been on this train for a while,

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and just you know, the fact that the House has

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supported decriminalization in the past just speaks to I think,

430
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just kind of the party's overall evolving attitude on this issue.

431
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I am curious to hear if you have any thoughts

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on sort of how it breaks down factionally. But you know,

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my sense is that especially folks who are maybe a

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little more libertarian minded, that was at least where maybe

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these shifting attitudes started. Maybe that was kind of at

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the forefront of the GOP's evolution on the issue. But

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I mean, it does feel like even folks who are

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you know, modern Republicans of all stripes or at least

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maybe not willing to like go to the mat on

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this issue like they might have been, say twenty years ago.

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Speaker 3: Right, Well, there's good reason for somebody of any political

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persuasion to support regulation and support freedom on this issue.

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This is a matter of individual liberty, personal responsibility, free enterprise,

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and when we lean into those values that so many

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of us hold deer and politicians like to talk about

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when we apply them here, it makes sense to move

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forward with a safe and legal market for cannabis rather

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than continuing to push it into the shadows, which is

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certainly not where anything good ever comes from.

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Speaker 1: I mean, what is your sense of I mean when

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you look at you said, like, the last ten years

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of this, have you seen the Republican Party evolve on

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this issue? Like, have you have defections formed in different

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ways over the last decade?

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, there has been a shift that was

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pretty steady. In two thousand and In fourteen, they added

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hemp into the platform for the Texas GOP. Twenty sixteen

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they added medical cannabis into the platform, twenty eighteen, they

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added decriminalization into the platform, and each subsequent legislative session

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we saw the ball move on each of those issues.

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Then the pandemic hit twenty twenty convention cycle was kind

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of chaos, especially for the GOP, and sadly since then

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we have seen kind of the party's position reverting away

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from freedom and liberty and towards more social conservatives wanting

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to control what people. Do you know you talked about

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Senator Perry and almost seems scolding, like he's talking to

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a child. And sadly, the nanny state, something that a

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lot of these Republicans talk about not wanting, is coming

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through on this. It is not their job to decide

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what adults choose to consume. If they want to keep

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dangerous products off the shelf, we can do that. We

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want to keep it away from kids, we can do that.

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But this for me, and this is what's motivated me

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for nearly a decade doing this is again that individual liberty,

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personal responsibility, and free enterprise.

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Speaker 2: I think, you know, kind of what you were getting

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at there too makes me think of I think that

478
00:25:10,599 --> 00:25:14,799
sort of runs parallel to the GOP's evolving stances on

479
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:18,880
just criminal justice issues as a whole. If you think

480
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:22,000
back to you know, eighties and nineties when Texas was

481
00:25:22,039 --> 00:25:24,559
sort of this you know, law and order, let's you know,

482
00:25:24,799 --> 00:25:29,279
crack down on everything, expand the prison system. Then going

483
00:25:29,279 --> 00:25:31,839
into the two thousands, it was you know, sort of

484
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:36,079
this this bipartisan coalition where the Republicans, especially in the House,

485
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:41,240
were all about reforming that that system. You know, it

486
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:47,160
wasn't a sustainable you know, prison boom situation, and I

487
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:52,039
think the evolving attitudes on on marijuana and marijuana adjacent

488
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:54,960
products kind of went hand in hand with that, and

489
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,359
as you were alluding to that, we've sort of seen

490
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,279
a contraction of that where it's the kind of the

491
00:26:01,599 --> 00:26:05,359
social conservative folks and especially you know, Dan Patrick in

492
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:07,640
the Senate have kind of they've wanted to crack down

493
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,920
on it, and that has also been the faction that

494
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:14,839
has sort of turned the tide against that expanding criminal

495
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,000
justice attitude. So it's kind of an interesting parallel there well.

496
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:20,200
Speaker 1: And like the issue that this is currently paired with

497
00:26:20,279 --> 00:26:23,079
in Dan Patrick's mind, at least in terms of a

498
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:26,279
special session, is like bail reform or you know, which,

499
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:29,720
as we've discussed in the newsroom, like bail reform expression

500
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,079
that's used by both sides and nobody knows what reform

501
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,119
needs in that situation in the eye of the beholder,

502
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:36,000
in the eye right reform and the eye of the beholder.

503
00:26:36,039 --> 00:26:38,839
But yeah, I think, like you know, this sort of

504
00:26:40,599 --> 00:26:43,759
things are not always a clean pendulum, right, like things

505
00:26:43,759 --> 00:26:46,519
come and go, and certainly right now this seems to

506
00:26:46,599 --> 00:26:49,559
be as you said, like he there you know a

507
00:26:49,599 --> 00:26:52,160
lot of urgency around this issue, a lot of like

508
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:57,359
coming out swinging hard. And you know, Lieutenant Governor Dan

509
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,960
Patrick has often pressed these big issues into, you know,

510
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:03,519
into a special session. Saw this with the bathroom bill,

511
00:27:03,559 --> 00:27:06,839
which you know ultimately did not pass, right. We saw

512
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:09,359
us with the vouchers, which you know, which was more

513
00:27:09,599 --> 00:27:13,039
Governor Abbott but still with his support, which did not

514
00:27:13,079 --> 00:27:16,440
pass last session. Now here we are it's likely to

515
00:27:16,519 --> 00:27:19,720
be passing this session. So you know, certainly this seems

516
00:27:19,799 --> 00:27:22,880
like the bugaboo of the session.

517
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's fair to say.

518
00:27:24,559 --> 00:27:27,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, Heather, are you expecting any movement on any other funds?

519
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:30,559
I know there's a bill also by Senator Perry on

520
00:27:30,559 --> 00:27:33,759
the compassionate Use program. Where are you expecting to see

521
00:27:33,759 --> 00:27:34,440
movement on that?

522
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,839
Speaker 3: Well, we certainly hope to see the compassionate use program

523
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:40,640
not only improved, which is what Senator Perry's would the

524
00:27:40,759 --> 00:27:43,799
bill would do, we'd like to see it expanded as well.

525
00:27:44,039 --> 00:27:48,400
Far too few people have access to this program. We've

526
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:50,519
seen it really looking like it's on the verge of

527
00:27:50,559 --> 00:27:53,960
implosion because of how few people are participating. And certainly

528
00:27:54,039 --> 00:27:56,200
there are some people who are going to the hemp

529
00:27:56,279 --> 00:27:58,880
market and finding products that are comparable and that they like,

530
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,079
but there are other people who would rather go through

531
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:04,720
their doctor and be able to track their progress and

532
00:28:04,759 --> 00:28:08,160
really identify how this is helping them from a medicinal standpoint,

533
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:10,200
and so we want them to have access to this.

534
00:28:10,279 --> 00:28:13,839
The biggest key to opening up access would be allowing

535
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,400
pain as a qualifying condition. Right now, patients are really

536
00:28:17,839 --> 00:28:21,039
looking at opioids, which are dangerous and addictive. We know

537
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:24,400
the harm that those medicines have ravished on our country,

538
00:28:24,839 --> 00:28:27,720
and offering people an alternative to that really would help

539
00:28:27,759 --> 00:28:30,319
to save lives and improve the quality of life for

540
00:28:30,519 --> 00:28:31,759
so many people in Texas.

541
00:28:32,079 --> 00:28:34,079
Speaker 2: And that bill what's on the table of the session.

542
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:38,440
I mean, so it would double the number of licensed vendors.

543
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:42,519
I guess that would be facilitating the passionate use program.

544
00:28:43,279 --> 00:28:45,079
What's kind of the cliff notes of what's in that build?

545
00:28:45,119 --> 00:28:48,480
Speaker 3: Sure, So in addition to opening up six licensed businesses

546
00:28:48,559 --> 00:28:51,039
rather than the three that we've been stuck at since

547
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:55,119
they were first issued in seventeen, it would allow satellite locations.

548
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:59,119
So currently the licensed business owners have to deliver hand

549
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,559
deliver medication two patients across the state, which, as you

550
00:29:02,599 --> 00:29:05,319
can imagine, it's very expensive. There's no mechanism for them

551
00:29:05,359 --> 00:29:08,279
to have even a storage facility, let alone another storefront

552
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:10,920
in the different major areas of the state. That's been

553
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,400
a huge reason why the cost of this medicine has

554
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:15,440
been so high. Of course, we also have to talk

555
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:17,400
about the half a million dollars to get a license,

556
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,400
three hundred and fifteen thousand dollars to renew every two years,

557
00:29:20,559 --> 00:29:22,920
something the government can control to tighten up bring down

558
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:26,319
those costs. But having satellite locations is really going to help,

559
00:29:26,359 --> 00:29:27,960
not only those three, but then we're going to have

560
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:31,039
six and all the different public health districts throughout the

561
00:29:31,039 --> 00:29:35,480
state of Texas, so that should really help. Additionally, there

562
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:39,359
are some restrictions on the THHC that's allowed, and originally

563
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:41,599
I thought this was a big concern. We're limiting it

564
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:43,480
to five milligrams. They can only have three hundred and

565
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,440
fifty milligrams in a package, they can only have ninety

566
00:29:46,519 --> 00:29:49,599
day supply. But after talking to the licensees, there is

567
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,319
no restriction on the milligrams a patient can have total.

568
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,799
It's just the individual unit can only be five milligrams.

569
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,240
So I'm less concerned about those as I was originally

570
00:30:00,079 --> 00:30:02,759
big concern with that six license is that's a cap

571
00:30:02,799 --> 00:30:06,519
at six. Currently we have a mandatory minimum of three

572
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:08,880
that had to be licensed and they've kept it at

573
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,000
that even though there was no cap on the number

574
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:14,240
of licenses they could issue. Now this six institute's a

575
00:30:14,319 --> 00:30:17,680
cap and I'm concerned about that. From a big picture standpoint,

576
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:20,599
free markets is something that I value, and if we're

577
00:30:20,599 --> 00:30:23,480
going to have this industry thrive, it's going to be

578
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,039
through competition. It's going to be through the best of

579
00:30:26,079 --> 00:30:27,960
products and services available on the market.

580
00:30:28,599 --> 00:30:34,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, the hearing, the first hearing about the SB three

581
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:38,480
the ban got kind of contentious. It was huge turnout

582
00:30:39,039 --> 00:30:42,839
clearing the gallery. A lot of big feelings around this issue.

583
00:30:43,079 --> 00:30:44,319
You were there, talk to us a little bit about

584
00:30:44,319 --> 00:30:46,279
what happened there and like what you're expecting to hear

585
00:30:46,319 --> 00:30:48,920
from people and how people might make their voices heard

586
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:49,759
the rest of the session.

587
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,319
Speaker 3: Right, Well, you know, this is an eight billion dollar

588
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,519
industry when it was last tallied in twenty twenty two.

589
00:30:55,599 --> 00:30:59,079
I think it's much more than that now, fifty thousand employees.

590
00:30:59,359 --> 00:31:01,319
There are people put their lives on the line to

591
00:31:01,359 --> 00:31:03,799
open a business in Texas to follow the rules that

592
00:31:03,839 --> 00:31:06,400
are on the books and now are risking having that

593
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:08,279
pulled out from underneath them. And so that's why we

594
00:31:08,319 --> 00:31:11,640
saw such a tremendous turnout at the Texas Senate hearing

595
00:31:11,759 --> 00:31:15,240
for this bill. We saw lots of people testifying, sharing

596
00:31:15,279 --> 00:31:19,160
their personal stories and experience, including consumers. One of the

597
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,839
most explosive testimonials was from a woman named Piper Lin Deen.

598
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:26,680
She's a mom who her child has seizures. They've tried

599
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:30,119
the Compassionate Use program products they didn't work. Now they

600
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:34,039
use hemp products that they trust from another state, actually

601
00:31:34,079 --> 00:31:37,400
somebody's reputable. It's working for her son, and this would

602
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,640
take their access from that medicine away, and so they

603
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,440
are very concerned. And she was very emotional because there

604
00:31:43,519 --> 00:31:47,039
just wasn't very much engagement from the the committee members

605
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:52,920
and she her mama bear a mode became chalked full force,

606
00:31:53,119 --> 00:31:56,279
and you know, of course the audience responded, and that

607
00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:00,400
was when the House gallery ended up getting cleared by

608
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:02,480
the chairman. And I I'm sure that's not the first

609
00:32:02,519 --> 00:32:04,880
time that's ever happened, but I've never seen it happen,

610
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:07,559
and it really showed just how high the tensions are

611
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:09,720
on this and I think that we can expect to

612
00:32:09,839 --> 00:32:13,359
continue to see that kind of energy coming in hopefully.

613
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:15,240
Of course, we encourage everyone to try to be as

614
00:32:15,279 --> 00:32:17,799
positive as possible coming into the house. We know that

615
00:32:17,799 --> 00:32:21,160
that's where our shot is because again House members are

616
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:22,839
listening and just.

617
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:24,559
Speaker 1: Where there's been I mean, on the other side of this,

618
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,319
right press conferences from people talking about their children saying, oh,

619
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:29,759
you know, they've they've been harmed by these products. I mean,

620
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,279
what sort of what are we expecting to hear on

621
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:34,000
that from that side of things?

622
00:32:34,079 --> 00:32:36,759
Speaker 2: I think, I mean, the gist of it that I've

623
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:42,039
picked up is just sort of anecdotal representations of cases

624
00:32:42,079 --> 00:32:49,920
where you know, parents have experienced you know, teenage kids,

625
00:32:50,759 --> 00:32:56,160
you know, experiencing schizophrenia, or just you know, feeling dependent

626
00:32:56,359 --> 00:33:00,480
on THHC products or just you know, various types of

627
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:05,680
I guess psychiatric related issues, and it sort of seems

628
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:09,480
to vary case by case, and I'm not fully advised

629
00:33:09,559 --> 00:33:12,920
on all the you know, the science behind it, so

630
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:17,200
I'm hesitant to like say, definitively what is actually caused

631
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:19,759
by these products, But that is sort of the argument

632
00:33:19,799 --> 00:33:22,200
against it. And of course, in addition to that, just

633
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:25,319
you know, what we're hearing from the legislative leaders that

634
00:33:25,519 --> 00:33:29,960
you know, they feel that these products are, as we've discussed,

635
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:33,640
just not adequately regulated. And some of those issues arise

636
00:33:34,319 --> 00:33:36,839
when there are products that you know, are maybe not

637
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:41,119
going through enough testing to ensure that there aren't these

638
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:45,519
you know, massively high levels of THHC sort of inadvertently

639
00:33:45,559 --> 00:33:47,000
being consumed.

640
00:33:46,759 --> 00:33:49,759
Speaker 1: But unquestion like marketing and targeting, you know, like is

641
00:33:49,799 --> 00:33:52,400
this could someone mistakenly take this right?

642
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:55,599
Speaker 3: And things like that, Well, nobody wants to undermine these

643
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:59,079
very real experiences that these families have gone through, especially

644
00:33:59,119 --> 00:34:01,000
if they're young. The young people in their lives had

645
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:04,799
a predisposition to schizophrenia. Cannabis isn't for everybody, and there

646
00:34:04,839 --> 00:34:07,039
are certain people that should not be using it, and

647
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:09,480
those may be some of those examples. I think that

648
00:34:09,559 --> 00:34:12,920
we also need to ask about evidence of was it

649
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:15,079
a bad product, was it a black market product? What

650
00:34:15,119 --> 00:34:17,480
else was in it? Was it the actual cannabinoids that

651
00:34:17,559 --> 00:34:19,840
caused this, or was it one of the residual solvents

652
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:22,239
or something left over in it? You know, we talk

653
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,480
about poison control calls have gone up in recent years.

654
00:34:25,559 --> 00:34:28,119
I think people are more comfortable calling in because it's

655
00:34:28,159 --> 00:34:32,000
not illegal, but also what were the outcomes of that?

656
00:34:32,079 --> 00:34:34,559
Did people just get really scared because they took too

657
00:34:34,639 --> 00:34:36,480
much and just have to sleep it off, or was

658
00:34:36,519 --> 00:34:39,679
this a real true poisoning where they needed medical intervention.

659
00:34:40,039 --> 00:34:43,400
Same with the emergency room visits, which have increased, still

660
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:45,960
not to alarming numbers, but they have increased. But what

661
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,800
were the outcomes of those situations? We haven't really been

662
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:52,239
hearing that from the people who are talking about them,

663
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:54,159
and in a way that is meant to instill a

664
00:34:54,199 --> 00:34:57,159
sense of fear rather than public information so that we

665
00:34:57,199 --> 00:34:59,079
could all make the right choices for ourselves.

666
00:35:00,119 --> 00:35:03,079
Speaker 1: We can anticipate that all of those arguments are going

667
00:35:03,119 --> 00:35:06,280
to be heard a lot over the next couple months,

668
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:10,239
as as this issue moves through the chambers and possibly

669
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:12,559
even into the summer and possibly into the fall and

670
00:35:12,639 --> 00:35:18,239
possibly forever. But unfortunately that we are not going to

671
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:21,360
get into all of that today. So that is it

672
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:23,800
for today. You can find all episodes of the Tribcast

673
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:26,199
on YouTube or wherever you find your podcast. Be sure

674
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:28,400
to like, subscribe, and share the podcast on all of

675
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:30,440
your platforms. If you'd like to get in touch with

676
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,519
the team, you can reach us at Tribcast at Texastribune

677
00:35:33,599 --> 00:35:35,920
dot org. Heather, thank you for joining us.

678
00:35:36,039 --> 00:35:36,800
Speaker 3: Thank you so much.

679
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:39,480
Speaker 1: We want to thank our sponsors, the Safer Texas Alliance

680
00:35:39,519 --> 00:35:42,840
and the Beer Alliance of Texas. Our producers are Robovula

681
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:46,119
and Chris Spobada. Our theme music is composed by Rob

682
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:47,920
and we will see you next week