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<v Speaker 1>And New Yorker, Texic. I'm around.

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<v Speaker 2>This is the seventy seven WABC Mini cast.

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<v Speaker 3>Our. Next guest is Scott Atlas, who is a longtime friend.

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<v Speaker 3>He's one of the smartest guys I know on health policy.

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<v Speaker 3>He was an amazing help to Donald Trump during COVID.

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<v Speaker 3>He was brought in to take on the faucis of

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<v Speaker 3>the world and give the American people the truth about

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<v Speaker 3>what was really happening with COVID.

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<v Speaker 1>I think you were a.

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<v Speaker 3>Special advisor to the President on the COVID task for Scott.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right, Steve. Nice to be here.

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<v Speaker 3>So what time when did you start, because all the

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<v Speaker 3>craziness started in jan you know, February and March and

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<v Speaker 3>April of twenty twenty.

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<v Speaker 1>When did you start?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I was. I was asked to come in right

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<v Speaker 2>at the end of July twenty twenty, first of August

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<v Speaker 2>twenty twenty as an advisor to the President and they

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<v Speaker 2>asked me to be as part of the task force

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<v Speaker 2>as well.

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<v Speaker 3>So, as you know and all our listeners know, Anthony

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<v Speaker 3>Fauci has now revealed himself as a great scoundrel and

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<v Speaker 3>someone who lied to the American people. And Scott, you

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<v Speaker 3>were a national treasurer because you were taking on Fauci.

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<v Speaker 3>First of all, let's just get to the very start

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<v Speaker 3>of this. You know, I was against. I was one

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<v Speaker 3>of the more vocal people against lockdowns from the very start.

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<v Speaker 3>And by the way, I would have been against lockdowns

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<v Speaker 3>even if they had worked, because I'm a pretty libertarian guy.

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<v Speaker 1>But they didn't work, did they No.

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<v Speaker 2>They didn't. And the data was in, and this was

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<v Speaker 2>something that I emphasized for months before I was in

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<v Speaker 2>the White House. From March onward, a few of us

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<v Speaker 2>were writing about this in the national media, that the

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<v Speaker 2>data was in, that the infection fatality rate a number

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<v Speaker 2>of people who died divided by the number of people

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<v Speaker 2>infected was maybe one fiftieth to one one hundreds of

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<v Speaker 2>what the WHO and others were saying because they weren't

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<v Speaker 2>counting all the asymptomatic people. The second part was that

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<v Speaker 2>this was really highly.

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<v Speaker 1>What does that mean?

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<v Speaker 3>What does that mean to be Let's keep this very simple,

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<v Speaker 3>what does that mean to be asymptomatic?

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<v Speaker 2>Sure, so, like most viral respiratory infections, particularly this one

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<v Speaker 2>and things like the flu, at least half the people

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<v Speaker 2>have no symptoms. They don't even know they're insane.

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<v Speaker 1>They didn't even know they had mild, right.

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<v Speaker 2>It's very, very mild. And then there's another group that

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<v Speaker 2>has no symptoms. They have minimal symptoms, but not enough

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<v Speaker 2>to go into the doctor. So they have a coffer,

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<v Speaker 2>they have a fever, they they feel lousy like we

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<v Speaker 2>all do with the flu. And so those people weren't counted.

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<v Speaker 2>The WHO and people on networks, et cetera were amplifying

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<v Speaker 2>that the infection fatality rate, the percent of people who

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<v Speaker 2>actually died of those who were infected, they were only

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<v Speaker 2>counting on the bottom of that fraction that people who

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<v Speaker 2>were sick enough to go see a doctor. But they

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<v Speaker 2>were ignoring all the others.

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<v Speaker 3>So here's the thing that annoys me and angers me,

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<v Speaker 3>and I think our listeners as well, that it's almost

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<v Speaker 3>as if Scott and you know, talking to Scott Alis,

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<v Speaker 3>who was one of the top health officials in our country,

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<v Speaker 3>it's almost like they were trying to scare the hell

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<v Speaker 3>out of us.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean, this was a that's a question they

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<v Speaker 2>have to think about because we know it was true.

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<v Speaker 2>I saw that in the task Force. I relate this

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<v Speaker 2>in my book A Plague upon our House actually had

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<v Speaker 2>one episode in the Task Force. This is in August

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<v Speaker 2>twenty twenty, where Fauci at the table in the room

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<v Speaker 2>said the problem is people aren't afraid enough. And I

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<v Speaker 2>leaned over because I thought, oh wow, I'm I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>I can't believe these I said, can you repeat that?

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<v Speaker 2>And he said, yes, the problem is people are not

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<v Speaker 2>afraid enough, so they're not listening. And you know, in

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<v Speaker 2>my view, as I and I said it to myself,

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<v Speaker 2>that's a sort of unethical way to use public health

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<v Speaker 2>leadership to make people afraid so they listened to you.

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<v Speaker 2>Of course, but.

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<v Speaker 3>Isn't that sort of the opposite of what you should do?

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<v Speaker 3>In other words, you want it seems to me you

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<v Speaker 3>would want to calm people down. You want people to

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<v Speaker 3>be protected, you want them to take it seriously. But

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<v Speaker 3>I thought the protocol was not to scare the hell

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<v Speaker 3>out of people.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right, and and and that kind of fear makes

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<v Speaker 2>people behave irrationally, and that's probably another reason why some

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<v Speaker 2>of the irrational things were said on TV and in

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<v Speaker 2>the media. I mean, you have to question if early

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<v Speaker 2>on when they wanted to shut the economy down FORLIC,

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<v Speaker 2>I think there was probably political overtones. As you remember

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<v Speaker 2>it was an election season, but that quickly changed into

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<v Speaker 2>people being re irrational in what they were saying. And

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<v Speaker 2>we knew fifteen years earlier the pandemic management literature very

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<v Speaker 2>clearly said lockdowns do not work to contain the spread

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<v Speaker 2>in a viral respiratory infection, and they're enormously destructive. They're

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<v Speaker 2>very harmful. And that's what unfolded.

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<v Speaker 3>So if you go back, you know through history, we

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<v Speaker 3>had pandemics, we had the very famous what flu epidemic?

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<v Speaker 1>What was that in nineteen seventeen.

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<v Speaker 3>I think it was where a lot of people died

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<v Speaker 3>from that, and so were we I'm trying to figure

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<v Speaker 3>out why it is that the medical establishment went so

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<v Speaker 3>haywire crazy about keeping In other words, why couldn't they

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<v Speaker 3>just tell people the truth and say, look, you know

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<v Speaker 3>you're if you're old, you know, over the age of

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<v Speaker 3>sixty five or seventy, you want to be very careful.

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<v Speaker 3>If you have respiratory issues, you probably got to be

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<v Speaker 3>very careful. If you have heart issues, be careful. But children,

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, why the hell did we shut down the schools?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, this is really one of the really complicated answers

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<v Speaker 2>to come up with, because you know, thank God, frankly,

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<v Speaker 2>this respiratory illness spared children, spared healthy young people. This

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<v Speaker 2>was a blessing. And therefore that kind of information was

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<v Speaker 2>critical to understand that all you were doing by locking

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<v Speaker 2>down and isolating children and young people, you were harming them.

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<v Speaker 2>You were hurting them instead and also wasting resources by

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<v Speaker 2>the way, instead of focusing the protection on the high

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<v Speaker 2>risk people. And I just want to be clear with

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<v Speaker 2>the listeners here it wasn't learned in later October, in

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<v Speaker 2>later twenty twenty or twenty twenty one or twenty twenty two,

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<v Speaker 2>in retrospect, no, we knew the data in the spring

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<v Speaker 2>of twenty twenty the children. Isolating these kids and closing

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<v Speaker 2>schools was enormously harmful, destructive, not just learning losses. But

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<v Speaker 2>by then spring of twenty twenty, the schools were closed

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<v Speaker 2>by that information we knew in the CDC even published

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<v Speaker 2>the enormous arms including these young people. One in four

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<v Speaker 2>college aged kids were contemplating suicide from the isolation, not

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<v Speaker 2>the virus from the isolation.

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<v Speaker 3>So you know, I'm not a health expert, you are,

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<v Speaker 3>but one of the things that seem crazy to me,

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<v Speaker 3>Like we lived across the street literally across the street

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<v Speaker 3>from a national park, and they shut the National park dout,

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<v Speaker 3>which seemed to be like the two things that are

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<v Speaker 3>really important to your health is fresh heir and exercise,

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<v Speaker 3>and you know we and yeah, so they literally the

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<v Speaker 3>entire park, you know, which is you know, miles Long

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<v Speaker 3>was shut down.

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<v Speaker 2>Why Steve, You may remember they were locking the playgrounds

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<v Speaker 2>in Manhattan, preventing kids from being outside. They were literally

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<v Speaker 2>telling you to stay indoors. That was the prescription by

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<v Speaker 2>Fauci and Deborah Berks, who was the head of the

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<v Speaker 2>medical side of the task force, telling all the local

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<v Speaker 2>health officials what to do. And so when you got

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<v Speaker 2>telling people stay inside and which is where the which

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<v Speaker 2>is by the way, not just isolating people, but that's

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<v Speaker 2>where the infection spreads.

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<v Speaker 1>You know.

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<v Speaker 3>What they did in our area, it just infuriated me

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<v Speaker 3>was that they would, for example, the skateboards parks, they

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<v Speaker 3>spread the skateboards parks with sand. So these kids were,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, to keep them from playing. Well, they didn't stop,

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<v Speaker 3>it's just they got injured because the dumb government was

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<v Speaker 3>telling them. It was basically trying to discourage them from Also,

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, we used to go out and play tennis,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, because we love to play tennis. We wanted

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<v Speaker 3>to get outside, and they kept taking the nuts down,

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<v Speaker 3>and then we'd find another core, you know, and then.

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<v Speaker 1>They take those nuts down, and they would do everything.

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<v Speaker 2>They really really irrational. You may remember the famous story

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<v Speaker 2>of the the coast Guard being told to go out

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<v Speaker 2>and with and arrest a guy on a sail boat

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<v Speaker 2>close to San Diego, miles from shore. They put him

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<v Speaker 2>under arrest for being out there.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh my god, So I'm telling you to Scott Outlass, Scott,

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<v Speaker 3>can I hold you over for another segment because there's

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<v Speaker 3>a bunch more I'd like to ask you about. Okay, folks,

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<v Speaker 3>were gonna take a quick break. This is the More

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<v Speaker 3>Money Show, and we're talking about the seriousness of what happened,

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<v Speaker 3>the mistakes that were made, so it can never happen again,

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<v Speaker 3>never ever happen again, that the government shuts down our

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<v Speaker 3>great economy. And by the way, Donald Trump did not

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<v Speaker 3>want to shut down the economy. He wanted to get

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<v Speaker 3>it open, but the medical establishment basically told him that

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<v Speaker 3>he should do just the opposite. So we'll be right back, folks,

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<v Speaker 3>with Scott Atlas.

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<v Speaker 2>It's more money.

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<v Speaker 1>We're leading economist Steve Moore. Now here's your host, Steve Moore.

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back, folks. This is the More Money Show.

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<v Speaker 3>I am continuing my conversation Scott Alice, which I normally

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<v Speaker 3>don't do two segments, but this has been fascinating. And

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<v Speaker 3>Scott Alice, as you all know, was one of the heroes,

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<v Speaker 3>one of the few heroes of the COVID catastrophe and

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<v Speaker 3>the way our government lied to the American people. So

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<v Speaker 3>I just wrote a column Scott about lessons learned, and

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<v Speaker 3>I wanted to just go over some of these and

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<v Speaker 3>tell me if you agree or disagree. One lesson I

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<v Speaker 3>said we should learn is beware when they taught us

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<v Speaker 3>follow the science because they don't oftentimes have the right science.

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<v Speaker 2>Well one hundred percent. And you know the reality of

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<v Speaker 2>that statement was to stop people from making the debate,

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<v Speaker 2>the challenge, the questions to what was being said. And

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<v Speaker 2>this is never neither a productive nor acceptable in a

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<v Speaker 2>free society.

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<v Speaker 3>The second I agree, so I'll go out of the

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<v Speaker 3>second one. The media was complicit in this whole experience.

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<v Speaker 2>They were really poisonous in sort of timidation, in propaganda.

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<v Speaker 2>It was an effective use of propaganda. By the way,

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<v Speaker 2>but also it was a mode of censorship to demonize

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<v Speaker 2>and vilify any dissenting voice that was done by the media.

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<v Speaker 2>It wasn't just propping up in this bizarre Kofka esque

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<v Speaker 2>logic Fauci, who was saying things and those prescriptions were

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<v Speaker 2>harming people. They were somehow he's a hero. But secondly,

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<v Speaker 2>they were demonizing any descent. And when you demonize descent,

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<v Speaker 2>you're delegitimizing any opposing view and pretending to the public.

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<v Speaker 2>You're lying to the public. Therefore saying, oh, there's a

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<v Speaker 2>consensus that all the experts say this, because they were

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<v Speaker 2>shutting down the opposite, right, How could.

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<v Speaker 3>There not be a consensus when you weren't allowed to

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<v Speaker 3>dispute it.

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<v Speaker 1>Great point.

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<v Speaker 3>The third point I make is that I believe there

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<v Speaker 3>are other people besides Fauci who should be brought in

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<v Speaker 3>front of Rampaul's committee.

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<v Speaker 1>One of them is Doris Burks.

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<v Speaker 2>Deborah Burks, exactly Burk. You know, people don't realize Fauci

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<v Speaker 2>really wasn't in charge of anything, although he was no

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<v Speaker 2>question the most influential face of the pandemic management because

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<v Speaker 2>he was on the media so often and because he

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<v Speaker 2>was propped up by the media. But Deborah Burks was

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<v Speaker 2>on the task force as the head of the medical

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<v Speaker 2>side of the task force. So the way it worked

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<v Speaker 2>was that we would come in tense was the person

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<v Speaker 2>running the task force meeting, and then the first person

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<v Speaker 2>to speak was Deborah Burkes, who gave the rundown to

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<v Speaker 2>everybody else. But Deborah Burks wrote all of the federal

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<v Speaker 2>policy guidelines to all the governors, to all the state officials,

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<v Speaker 2>to all the public health officials. Her hands are the

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<v Speaker 2>ones that pushed the schools, the lockdowns, the stay at

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<v Speaker 2>home orders, everything that was done, and the inane pseudo

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<v Speaker 2>analysis of the data which she really didn't understand whatsoever.

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<v Speaker 1>And yet I've seen very very few people in the media.

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<v Speaker 1>Steven A.

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<v Speaker 3>Smith, who was with ESPN you may have seen he

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<v Speaker 3>apologized for being wrong on us.

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<v Speaker 1>He has criticized people, you know, for.

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<v Speaker 3>Their actions during COVID, and he manned up and he said, look,

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<v Speaker 3>I was wrong. But I haven't seen any almost anyone

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<v Speaker 3>else in the media say we were wrong.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, they won't. And you know, I believe it's sort

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<v Speaker 2>of a very haunting example of what's called cognitive dissonance,

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<v Speaker 2>which is you cannot handle you as a person cannot

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<v Speaker 2>handle saying something that you bought into so strongly, so

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<v Speaker 2>that it's a self protective mode. That these people were

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<v Speaker 2>so complicit, they were so hostile, they were so vicious

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<v Speaker 2>about people who disagreed and not proven wrong. I don't

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<v Speaker 2>expect I do not expect, frankly, these people to admit

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<v Speaker 2>they were wrong. So we as thinking people, and there

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<v Speaker 2>are millions of America who had the courage to stand

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<v Speaker 2>up to this, to try to protect their kids and

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<v Speaker 2>their own families, even though they were at risk for

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<v Speaker 2>losing and they did lose their jobs and their sort

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<v Speaker 2>of societal acceptance. We have to realize that that's a

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<v Speaker 2>critical part of this, that this is some validation to

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<v Speaker 2>these people that they weren't doing this for nothing.

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<v Speaker 3>So last question at our last couple of minutes, Scott Alison,

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<v Speaker 3>thanks so much for joining. We've learned a lot from

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<v Speaker 3>you today. The vaccine I was, I believe and you

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<v Speaker 3>know way more about this are so I'll tell you

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<v Speaker 3>what I believe and tell me if I'm right or

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<v Speaker 3>wrong on this.

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<v Speaker 1>I do think that the vaccine.

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<v Speaker 3>Operation warp speed did save lives, especially for people who

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<v Speaker 3>are vulnerable to you know, uh uh, you know, having

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<v Speaker 3>a fatal issue with respect to COVID. But I was

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<v Speaker 3>always against mandating and requiring people to get the vaccine.

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<v Speaker 3>So what is your overall takeaway from from the from

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<v Speaker 3>that whole operation Warp speed was the vaccine of active?

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<v Speaker 3>Should we have done it the way we did it?

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<v Speaker 3>Because now people are suspicious of vaccines?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, and actually you know rightfully so because when you

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<v Speaker 2>just they they the people in power, destroyed the trust

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<v Speaker 2>in all of these things themselves, and that's because they

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<v Speaker 2>there were a couple of things. Okay, the Operation Work

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<v Speaker 2>Food was very successful in several ways, one of which

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<v Speaker 2>was developing very rapidly drugs that actually worked. And here

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<v Speaker 2>I'm talking about the the immuno globulens, the gamma globulins

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<v Speaker 2>that were injected and early on when it was very

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<v Speaker 2>dangerous for older people. Secondly, the vaccines and the everything

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<v Speaker 2>that was done to get to make everything ready to

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<v Speaker 2>go and to eliminate the typical many year delay in this. Yes,

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<v Speaker 2>but what the vaccines didn't do, and this is not

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<v Speaker 2>something that anyone other than the scientists there would have understood.

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<v Speaker 2>They didn't test for things that they claimed the vaccines

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<v Speaker 2>did they ever did any testing to see if it

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<v Speaker 2>limited spread or if the people who got injected were

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<v Speaker 2>not carriers of the virus, et cetera, even though they

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<v Speaker 2>claimed it stopped the spread of the virus, which it didn't.

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<v Speaker 2>So what it did though in the very early stages,

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<v Speaker 2>I remember the virus itself changed over time, it mutated

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<v Speaker 2>to something less virulent, less leaf. But in the beginning, yes,

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<v Speaker 2>in the nursing home data in the early months of

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<v Speaker 2>this vaccine availability showed that the nursing home residents as

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<v Speaker 2>the highest risk group that you could be. There were

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<v Speaker 2>a dramatic drop in the death rate once the vaccine came,

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<v Speaker 2>So you know, there are lessons to be learned about

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<v Speaker 2>the whole thing. But one of the problems that caused

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<v Speaker 2>the loss of trust was the lack of transparency and

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<v Speaker 2>the exaggeration or even overt lies about what the data

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<v Speaker 2>showed about the vaccine. And this is again something we

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<v Speaker 2>can't forget. Did Its Burks and Deborah Berks and Anthony

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<v Speaker 2>Fauci who presided over what is frankly the biggest failure

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<v Speaker 2>in public health history, and their guidance was implemented and

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<v Speaker 2>it failed. And what we're left with here beyond the damage,

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<v Speaker 2>beyond everything else, is a destruction of trust in public health.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, you know, Scott.

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<v Speaker 3>What really annoys me about this is there were people

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<v Speaker 3>like you know you and other health professionals who got

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<v Speaker 3>it right. I was vilified by the way, even from

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<v Speaker 3>conservative friends at the beginning when I said don't lock down,

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<v Speaker 3>don't lock down. Even some of the groups like CATO

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<v Speaker 3>and Student Heritage said lockdown, lockdown because they panic.

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<v Speaker 1>But here's the thing.

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<v Speaker 3>I think that we need to be able to learn

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<v Speaker 3>these lessons of what happened.

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<v Speaker 1>And do you think we will?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I'm hoping that the point of what rand Paul's

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<v Speaker 2>investigation is sort of what the answer is, which is

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<v Speaker 2>number one, this is an example of transparency we usually

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<v Speaker 2>don't have in government. This is fantastic, very valuable to

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<v Speaker 2>educate the public about what was done and what the

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<v Speaker 2>motivations were to do it. And the second part is

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<v Speaker 2>this is some public accountability because, frankly, Steve, the only

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<v Speaker 2>deterrent to this happening again is public accountability, and we're

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<v Speaker 2>finally getting some. Is it enough? A lot of people

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<v Speaker 2>think no, but it's a start.

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<v Speaker 3>I want to ask you one other question. If I

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<v Speaker 3>May and we'll just go over a little bit on

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<v Speaker 3>the segment. But I think that, you know, I was

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<v Speaker 3>struck by the fact that conservatives, free market people like

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<v Speaker 3>you and me, we were we wanted to go, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>on with our lives.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, we were willing to take some of the

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<v Speaker 1>risks and so on.

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<v Speaker 3>And as it was struck by the fact that my

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<v Speaker 3>liberal friends were terrified, you know, and I wonder if

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<v Speaker 3>there's something in the DNA of liberals that they're just afraid.

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<v Speaker 1>And they don't want to take risks or something.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, maybe I'm jumping the conclusions here, but it

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<v Speaker 3>just struck me that look at the red states all

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<v Speaker 3>opened up, the blue state state closed down.

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<v Speaker 2>It's striking. And you know, maybe there's a correlation with

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<v Speaker 2>people who believe that some third party like the government

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<v Speaker 2>is going to take care of you, and other people

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<v Speaker 2>who are generally more conservative are more libertarian and say, no,

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<v Speaker 2>we're independent, we are going to take care of ourselves.

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<v Speaker 2>By the way, that's what Sweden did. Sweden trusted the

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<v Speaker 2>people in their country. They did not lock down, they

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<v Speaker 2>did not close schools, but they did say listen, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>use your common sense. If you're old and sickly. You

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<v Speaker 2>probably should avoid crowds, but they didn't lock you up.

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<v Speaker 2>We have to remember something you said earlier, Steve, which

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<v Speaker 2>is that this violated all of our so called guaranteed freedoms.

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<v Speaker 2>This is a country, there's a free country. We can

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<v Speaker 2>never let this happen again. There's no such thing as

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<v Speaker 2>a guaranteed freedom. If it can be removed because somebody says, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>there's an emergency, we're going to remove the freedoms, then

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<v Speaker 2>it's not.

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<v Speaker 1>Scott, thank you for everything you did.

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<v Speaker 3>You were an amazing force for good in this and

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<v Speaker 3>you've been totally vindicated. So thank you, my friend, for

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<v Speaker 3>standing up for our rights and our freedoms. And we

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<v Speaker 3>are all grateful for what you and only a handful

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<v Speaker 3>of others did in speaking out against Fauci and Burks.

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<v Speaker 1>Folks, this is the more money show, and we will

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<v Speaker 1>be right back