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And lived Chumba 19 00:00:57.479 --> 00:00:59.960 Landeburgs necessary dwod wherever if I lost terms of an 20 00:01:00.159 --> 00:01:03.560 eating black blot to radio. 21 00:01:12.680 --> 00:01:16.079 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 22 00:01:16.200 --> 00:01:19.200 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 23 00:01:19.319 --> 00:01:26.879 written about them. Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every week, 24 00:01:27.040 --> 00:01:30.879 another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous 25 00:01:30.959 --> 00:01:34.920 killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 26 00:01:35.319 --> 00:01:38.400 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 27 00:01:48.400 --> 00:01:48.920 Good Evening. 28 00:01:50.159 --> 00:01:53.480 Burrel Bear definitely is a legendary figure in true crime 29 00:01:53.519 --> 00:01:57.519 writing and broadcasting, co hosting the very first true crime podcast, 30 00:01:57.640 --> 00:02:02.280 True Crime Uncensored. An Edgar Award winning author and two 31 00:02:02.359 --> 00:02:05.920 time Anthony Award nominee, Burl Bear is the author of 32 00:02:06.120 --> 00:02:10.599 nine truly important true crime books in two thousand. Murder 33 00:02:10.680 --> 00:02:13.479 in the Family was published in two thousand and four, 34 00:02:13.960 --> 00:02:17.759 Broken Doll in two thousand and eight, Mom Said Kill 35 00:02:18.240 --> 00:02:23.560 in twenty eleven, Fatal Beauty in twenty twelve, Body Count 36 00:02:23.639 --> 00:02:29.000 and also Headshot were published Man Overboard in twenty fourteen, 37 00:02:29.560 --> 00:02:33.159 and with co author Frank C. Girardo Junior, A Taste 38 00:02:33.199 --> 00:02:36.360 for Murder was published in two thousand and sixteen, as 39 00:02:36.639 --> 00:02:40.759 was Betrayal in Blue. A short story the Alaska mailbomb 40 00:02:40.800 --> 00:02:46.319 Conspiracy was also published in twenty sixteen. In this Burl 41 00:02:46.400 --> 00:02:49.879 Bear retrospective, we will discuss how his true crime writing 42 00:02:49.960 --> 00:02:54.000 career began, his very first case in book, the murder 43 00:02:54.120 --> 00:02:58.400 cases that shaped his career, and his incredible personal experiences 44 00:02:58.479 --> 00:03:03.639 with psychopaths and serial killer writing. These now nine true 45 00:03:03.680 --> 00:03:09.159 crime classics. The episode tonight is Burl Bear Retrospective with 46 00:03:09.280 --> 00:03:14.759 my special guest, investigative journalist and author and podcaster extraordinaire, 47 00:03:15.000 --> 00:03:18.639 the legendary Burl Bear. Welcome to the program, and thank 48 00:03:18.680 --> 00:03:20.360 you very much for agreeing to this program. 49 00:03:21.479 --> 00:03:24.360 It's always a pleasure and an honor to be on 50 00:03:24.439 --> 00:03:26.560 your program, and it's always a pleasure to have you 51 00:03:26.639 --> 00:03:28.360 on mind. So I think we'll get along fine. 52 00:03:29.840 --> 00:03:32.360 It's always an honor and a pleasure to have you 53 00:03:32.479 --> 00:03:36.800 on this program True Murder and this first retrospective. I 54 00:03:36.840 --> 00:03:40.240 think it's fitting to have somebody of your stature on 55 00:03:40.400 --> 00:03:42.400 your importance in the two fives six. 56 00:03:42.400 --> 00:03:46.520 One en shoes. Yeah, that's by stature. I would point 57 00:03:46.599 --> 00:03:52.680 out your chronology had a couple understandable errors in it. Yes, 58 00:03:53.599 --> 00:03:57.560 Headshot actually Kave was the first book after Murdering the Family. 59 00:03:58.159 --> 00:04:01.120 The date that you have is on the Kensington re 60 00:04:01.319 --> 00:04:05.319 released with this snazzy new cover. So I just thought 61 00:04:05.599 --> 00:04:09.360 i'd mentioned that, and well, thank you very much. I thought, yeah, 62 00:04:11.280 --> 00:04:12.080 now go ahead. 63 00:04:12.120 --> 00:04:17.759 Berl Murdering the Family nineteen eighty seven, Anchorage, Alaska. A murderous, 64 00:04:17.839 --> 00:04:22.120 sociopathic twenty three year old nephew, slaughters's aunt and two 65 00:04:22.279 --> 00:04:26.480 of her children. Now this is your first book, As 66 00:04:26.560 --> 00:04:29.680 I mentioned, murder in the Family. Tell us what you 67 00:04:29.759 --> 00:04:32.439 were doing at that time? How do you how do 68 00:04:32.480 --> 00:04:35.879 you manage to become the author of Murder in the Family? 69 00:04:36.120 --> 00:04:38.839 Tell us how this happens? How does it come to be? 70 00:04:39.800 --> 00:04:43.800 Okay, I had just published, right, So I didn't publish 71 00:04:43.839 --> 00:04:47.759 it myself, but i'd had the book man Overboard The 72 00:04:47.839 --> 00:04:53.040 Counterfeit Resurrection of Phil Champagne published by Northwest Publishing Company, 73 00:04:53.360 --> 00:04:56.399 the original hardback edition, which is a true crime book 74 00:04:58.040 --> 00:05:03.199 and was Anthony nominated, which showed rather nice and as 75 00:05:03.319 --> 00:05:05.199 a true crime book of the year. Didn't win, but 76 00:05:05.279 --> 00:05:08.319 it was dominated. And it's as you probably don't, it's 77 00:05:08.319 --> 00:05:10.680 a humorous true crime book. At least it is supposed 78 00:05:10.680 --> 00:05:13.560 to be humorous. It's supposed to. My theory was its 79 00:05:13.720 --> 00:05:16.800 investigating the true crime discovery with all the rules. There's 80 00:05:16.920 --> 00:05:21.240 very very harsh rules at that time in the true 81 00:05:21.279 --> 00:05:24.439 crime genre, and so I decided I break them all. 82 00:05:24.720 --> 00:05:27.879 I talk, I break the fourth wall. I talked to 83 00:05:27.959 --> 00:05:31.480 the characters, I talked to the audience, the reader. I 84 00:05:31.600 --> 00:05:34.560 do everything you're not supposed to do. But at the 85 00:05:34.639 --> 00:05:41.879 same time, I have very strong journalistic ethics, very strong 86 00:05:42.399 --> 00:05:45.920 professional underpinnings. As I was professional journalist. It was kind 87 00:05:45.959 --> 00:05:49.920 of a literary experiment. It certainly did in terms of 88 00:05:50.040 --> 00:05:53.759 reviews and critical acclaim much better than I ever imagined. 89 00:05:54.199 --> 00:05:56.519 He did not do in sales as good as I hoped, 90 00:05:57.000 --> 00:05:59.399 but in terms of respect, it's guarded me a great 91 00:05:59.439 --> 00:06:03.079 deal of that, especially from the great Jack Olsen, who 92 00:06:03.240 --> 00:06:06.079 was probably the best true crime writer I ever encountered, 93 00:06:06.800 --> 00:06:08.839 and he actually sought me out and came and talked 94 00:06:08.839 --> 00:06:10.959 to me and told me, how much do you like 95 00:06:11.040 --> 00:06:15.439 the book? We formed a friendship over that, which of 96 00:06:15.519 --> 00:06:18.279 course for the lasting impact on me. So it was 97 00:06:18.319 --> 00:06:22.720 at what they call the ABA, the American Booksellers Association 98 00:06:23.639 --> 00:06:26.920 has their annual conference, and the publisher man Overboard, had 99 00:06:26.959 --> 00:06:29.839 a big display for the book. The woman walks up 100 00:06:29.879 --> 00:06:31.360 to me and has me because he says, I am 101 00:06:31.439 --> 00:06:36.279 a new agent. I'm Charlotte Dale. Breese and I said, well, 102 00:06:36.360 --> 00:06:39.920 pleasure to miss you, miss and a man whatever eventually 103 00:06:40.240 --> 00:06:45.399 contacts me and says, Kensington Publishing is looking for an 104 00:06:45.480 --> 00:06:48.600 author to write a book about a true crime case 105 00:06:48.839 --> 00:06:55.439 in Alaska. And I had one question. I said, is 106 00:06:55.480 --> 00:06:59.000 there a check attached? And he said yes, there is, 107 00:06:59.319 --> 00:07:02.600 and I said, well, I'm obviously the man for the job. Well, 108 00:07:02.639 --> 00:07:05.000 it turned out that the fellow who brought the case 109 00:07:05.560 --> 00:07:11.680 to Kensington was an Anchorage police formerged police officer, so 110 00:07:11.839 --> 00:07:13.759 he had kind of the inside track on him. But 111 00:07:13.839 --> 00:07:17.040 he wasn't an AUF. He wasn't a writer. They wanted 112 00:07:17.079 --> 00:07:22.959 the writer. She knew him and knew me and said, 113 00:07:23.000 --> 00:07:26.759 here's your guy. Well, I guess they agreed. They signed 114 00:07:26.759 --> 00:07:30.399 me to a contract and I did the book. I 115 00:07:30.519 --> 00:07:34.519 hadn't done one before. They told me it had to 116 00:07:34.600 --> 00:07:39.040 be one hundred thousand words exactly and had to be 117 00:07:39.160 --> 00:07:43.959 delivered in full on exactly this particular date. Well, coming 118 00:07:44.000 --> 00:07:46.319 from a background in radio, if they tell you your 119 00:07:46.439 --> 00:07:49.360 Elvis Presley Special has to be fifty nine minutes and 120 00:07:49.439 --> 00:07:52.639 thirty seconds and it goes on the air Wednesday the twelfth, 121 00:07:53.160 --> 00:07:55.600 it can't be delayed until Thursday, and it can't be 122 00:07:55.759 --> 00:07:59.480 forty eight minutes long. Everything has to be exact, and 123 00:07:59.680 --> 00:08:03.360 so that's ex altum. On that date of due date 124 00:08:03.839 --> 00:08:07.439 they received by a federal express a manuscript was exactly 125 00:08:07.920 --> 00:08:13.800 one hundred thousand words to the letter law. And I 126 00:08:13.959 --> 00:08:16.759 get this stumpback from this fabulous editor I had there, 127 00:08:16.839 --> 00:08:20.079 Karen Haws. She says, this is the first time I 128 00:08:20.160 --> 00:08:24.079 have ever received a manuscript on the exact due date 129 00:08:24.160 --> 00:08:27.600 that was exactly one hundred thousand words. Beltcheck, grammar check. 130 00:08:28.399 --> 00:08:30.079 You know it needed a line at it because I'm 131 00:08:30.120 --> 00:08:34.519 not perfect, of course, But since she hadn't seen that before, 132 00:08:35.519 --> 00:08:40.039 I thought everybody did that. The book is either. I 133 00:08:40.200 --> 00:08:43.080 tried to use a lot of action in it, a 134 00:08:43.159 --> 00:08:47.279 lot of adverbs and a lot of verbs to give 135 00:08:47.360 --> 00:08:49.440 a feeling of forward motion. And I think if you 136 00:08:49.559 --> 00:08:52.399 notice at the beginning of the book, that's what kicks off, 137 00:08:53.000 --> 00:08:55.320 you know, for so and so the nightmare began on 138 00:08:55.480 --> 00:08:58.360 such and such, and I use a lot of forward 139 00:08:58.440 --> 00:09:01.720 moving words to try to drag you kicking and screaming 140 00:09:02.320 --> 00:09:04.639 to the first part of the book. And when it 141 00:09:04.679 --> 00:09:06.879 gets to the trial, either you're going to slog your 142 00:09:06.919 --> 00:09:10.279 way through that or you're not, or you're gonna skip it. 143 00:09:10.759 --> 00:09:13.960 I've noticed, I've learned that a lot of true fans 144 00:09:14.799 --> 00:09:20.720 don't like trials. They're done interested in that. I find 145 00:09:20.840 --> 00:09:25.960 them fascinating, in fact, too fascinating. But we're getting that 146 00:09:26.000 --> 00:09:30.799 when we talk about a Headshot, which is essentially a 147 00:09:31.360 --> 00:09:31.960 book about that. 148 00:09:33.879 --> 00:09:37.919 The Yes, Headshot, you're right that this alcoholic Paul Saint 149 00:09:38.000 --> 00:09:40.320 Pierre had an urge to kill, along with his brother 150 00:09:40.440 --> 00:09:44.399 Chris and a friend Andrew Webb, and the trio terrorize 151 00:09:44.440 --> 00:09:47.679 the quiet neighborhood near Tacoma, Washington, with the brutal murder 152 00:09:47.799 --> 00:09:53.320 of innocent victims. And that's that's an understatement. How did 153 00:09:53.360 --> 00:09:57.440 you come to why headshot? Again? Is this a Pinnacle release? 154 00:09:57.519 --> 00:09:59.559 Tell us how you came to a little bit about 155 00:09:59.559 --> 00:10:00.000 that headshot? 156 00:10:00.120 --> 00:10:04.840 Yeah, kens didn't. I can't talk to you for a minute. 157 00:10:04.919 --> 00:10:09.120 Let me slap myself in the face. Okay. Kensington's Pinnacle, 158 00:10:09.200 --> 00:10:11.919 through Crime Imprint, signed me to a two book contract. 159 00:10:12.360 --> 00:10:15.200 So here I had another book to do, and okay, 160 00:10:15.240 --> 00:10:19.039 what do I follow this with? And my editor Karen 161 00:10:19.080 --> 00:10:23.159 has said, well, give me some suggestions. And I was 162 00:10:23.240 --> 00:10:27.480 working on a private Eye novel at that time. I 163 00:10:27.559 --> 00:10:29.799 said I would write one of those and make myself 164 00:10:29.879 --> 00:10:33.759 the hero, because, as you and I both realized, no 165 00:10:33.840 --> 00:10:35.360 one else is going to make me the hero of 166 00:10:35.440 --> 00:10:37.679 a private Eye novel, So if I was going to 167 00:10:37.720 --> 00:10:40.759 be the case, I had to write it myself. The 168 00:10:40.879 --> 00:10:44.039 title of that one is Headlock, which sounds awful lot 169 00:10:44.200 --> 00:10:46.200 like Headshot, but it's a totally different book from a 170 00:10:46.240 --> 00:10:49.559 different publisher, where I'm the hero of this private Eye novel. 171 00:10:51.000 --> 00:10:54.360 While I am writing that novel, I am friends with 172 00:10:55.960 --> 00:11:01.559 a great journalist and brilliant fellow named Travis we who 173 00:11:01.639 --> 00:11:03.759 appears in the book. As there's a lot of real 174 00:11:03.799 --> 00:11:06.039 people in the book. It's a vocal fiction with real 175 00:11:06.120 --> 00:11:10.679 people in it. And we did this book and I 176 00:11:10.799 --> 00:11:13.360 got great reviews in low sales, and this is typical 177 00:11:13.399 --> 00:11:16.759 for a mention of my material. And then he comes 178 00:11:16.799 --> 00:11:21.759 to me and says, you know, my uncle Andrew Webb 179 00:11:23.919 --> 00:11:27.240 is in prison for murder. And I said, oh, really, 180 00:11:27.799 --> 00:11:30.440 that's fascinating because where I happened to be right where 181 00:11:30.440 --> 00:11:32.679 the prisoners. We were in Walla Walla, Washington, where the 182 00:11:33.000 --> 00:11:37.039 Washington State prisoners. And because yeah, it's a really a 183 00:11:37.120 --> 00:11:39.840 strange story. My mom has every article and all of 184 00:11:39.919 --> 00:11:42.759 this and all of that. Sure enough she did. And 185 00:11:42.879 --> 00:11:45.200 I looked at this story and I went, this is 186 00:11:45.399 --> 00:11:49.360 really crazy. I mean, this is an insane story. And 187 00:11:49.559 --> 00:11:54.240 then when I started looking at the trials and the 188 00:11:54.440 --> 00:11:58.080 legal stuff that went on, it was every bit as 189 00:11:58.200 --> 00:12:04.679 insane as the people in the crimes and just as bizarre. 190 00:12:05.600 --> 00:12:07.840 I've never seen it. Well, I'm sure if I looked 191 00:12:07.840 --> 00:12:13.240 hard enough, I'd find plenty of prostitutorial misconduct. But the 192 00:12:13.360 --> 00:12:17.440 prosecutorial misconduct this case was so severe. You had judges 193 00:12:17.960 --> 00:12:21.320 standing up from behind their desk and their robes and 194 00:12:21.399 --> 00:12:24.720 screaming this case is giving me etc. Headache number eight 195 00:12:24.840 --> 00:12:27.600 hundred and fifty three and I can't take it anymore, 196 00:12:27.960 --> 00:12:31.720 and storming out of the courtroom. I mean, they were 197 00:12:31.799 --> 00:12:35.759 just fed up. So there's like three trials, so what 198 00:12:35.919 --> 00:12:41.799 two mistrials, three appeals to the State Supreme Court. Sentencing 199 00:12:41.960 --> 00:12:45.159 documents went missing. After the book was written, I was 200 00:12:45.240 --> 00:12:50.960 contacted by Christopher Saint Pierre's attorney saying that Christopher, who 201 00:12:50.960 --> 00:12:55.159 should have been out by it by then, was still 202 00:12:55.200 --> 00:12:58.440 in prison. Well why is he still in prison? He 203 00:12:58.440 --> 00:13:00.000 should have been out, you know, a couple of years ago. 204 00:13:00.960 --> 00:13:06.360 And he said, well, he was sentenced to service sentence consecutive. 205 00:13:06.440 --> 00:13:09.879 We call it concurrently, but there prisons trying to say 206 00:13:09.919 --> 00:13:13.000 yes to service consecutively, which would be built there forever. 207 00:13:13.720 --> 00:13:16.159 I said no, no, no, no, no. He said, well, 208 00:13:16.159 --> 00:13:18.840 do you have the sentencing documents? I said, well, it 209 00:13:18.960 --> 00:13:21.600 was covered by the Prospect front page article on the paper. 210 00:13:22.240 --> 00:13:25.200 It's no secret what his sentencing was. He said, well, 211 00:13:25.240 --> 00:13:29.039 where's the actual sentencing document, stamped by the state, signed 212 00:13:29.080 --> 00:13:32.159 by the judge. You must have it because we can't 213 00:13:32.200 --> 00:13:36.080 find it. And I had a copy of absolutely everything 214 00:13:36.279 --> 00:13:39.559 later the case. The State of Washington had never seen 215 00:13:39.679 --> 00:13:43.679 anyone get as much material from them as I did 216 00:13:44.279 --> 00:13:47.399 in writing that book. They couldn't believe it. I had 217 00:13:47.440 --> 00:13:49.960 to write a van to take all the stuff from 218 00:13:50.000 --> 00:13:55.360 the State Supreme Court library or warehouse whatever. It was 219 00:13:55.440 --> 00:14:00.799 so much material, and no one could find the sentence documents. 220 00:14:01.399 --> 00:14:03.759 And I went through there. No, it's missing from here, 221 00:14:04.720 --> 00:14:09.120 missing from everywhere. And that's not a coincidence, that's intentional. 222 00:14:11.120 --> 00:14:12.799 And so then they said, well, was there anywhere else 223 00:14:12.840 --> 00:14:14.960 you can find it? Well, of course I got the 224 00:14:15.039 --> 00:14:19.679 newspaper articles, but they wouldn't accept that. I tried to 225 00:14:19.720 --> 00:14:25.200 get the videotapes, the TV station had videotape to sentencing, 226 00:14:26.120 --> 00:14:28.360 but a new company abought the TV station and that 227 00:14:28.480 --> 00:14:32.080 tape was erased, and so they would not let this 228 00:14:32.279 --> 00:14:35.279 guy out of prison. Despite they even brought the judge 229 00:14:35.960 --> 00:14:39.919 and the court reporter back into a courtroom and had 230 00:14:40.000 --> 00:14:44.320 them testify as to what the original sentencing was, and 231 00:14:44.480 --> 00:14:48.799 the Department of Corrections would not accept that either, and 232 00:14:48.919 --> 00:14:51.919 they kept the guy in prison. The only reason they 233 00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:54.679 let him out is he got I believe, multiple clerosis, 234 00:14:55.559 --> 00:14:57.279 and they let him out because he was so ill. 235 00:14:58.919 --> 00:15:01.360 And he was the one so he had had the 236 00:15:01.519 --> 00:15:04.000 least to do with any crime. He's the one who 237 00:15:04.080 --> 00:15:06.480 went to the police and said, my brother, and Andrew 238 00:15:06.519 --> 00:15:11.759 Webb killed these people and I can't you know, like 239 00:15:11.919 --> 00:15:16.559 his KK my mouth said about it. And the prosecutor, 240 00:15:16.799 --> 00:15:21.919 in one of his great brilliant moves, said to the press, 241 00:15:22.240 --> 00:15:26.440 the first one through the door gets the deal. Well, 242 00:15:26.480 --> 00:15:29.799 the first one through the door was Andrew Webb, the 243 00:15:29.879 --> 00:15:32.799 most guilty of them all, and he made a deal 244 00:15:33.799 --> 00:15:37.440 with the prosecutor in return for their not being a 245 00:15:37.519 --> 00:15:41.639 death penalty, in return for their for him by getting 246 00:15:42.559 --> 00:15:44.879 the ability to be paroled, so he didn't get life 247 00:15:44.919 --> 00:15:48.679 without parole. He got life with possibility of parole. He 248 00:15:48.759 --> 00:15:53.960 would testify against Christopher Saint Pierre at Paul Saint Pierre 249 00:15:54.799 --> 00:15:57.320 and implicate them in the murder of these two people. 250 00:15:59.320 --> 00:16:02.399 Then he got upon the stand. He didn't do it, 251 00:16:03.240 --> 00:16:07.840 he said, no, actually they didn't. I'm totally responsible. I 252 00:16:07.960 --> 00:16:11.399 take full responsibility. I'm the one who slipped the throat 253 00:16:11.440 --> 00:16:15.399 of Damon Wells. And that's what the trial was about, 254 00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:17.759 that particular murder. And he says, and they had nothing 255 00:16:17.799 --> 00:16:19.559 to do with it. They were there, they were shocked, 256 00:16:19.600 --> 00:16:21.960 but they did not kill the kid or know I 257 00:16:22.080 --> 00:16:25.480 was going to kill him. Well, of course the prosecutor 258 00:16:25.600 --> 00:16:29.600 was outraged because he'd already signed the deal. It was 259 00:16:29.600 --> 00:16:32.679 already a done deal, and so he tricked the prosecutor 260 00:16:32.720 --> 00:16:34.840 and he actually told the truth when he got up 261 00:16:34.879 --> 00:16:38.039 on the stand, and the truth was that the other 262 00:16:38.120 --> 00:16:39.720 two guys had nothing to do with the murder of 263 00:16:39.799 --> 00:16:46.480 Damon Wells. He was the only one responsible. But even 264 00:16:46.519 --> 00:16:48.960 though Christopher Saint Pierre was found guilty of that and 265 00:16:49.000 --> 00:16:52.960 then it was overturned, but he was found guilty of 266 00:16:53.039 --> 00:16:55.480 the second murder. I mean, it's just a mess, total mess. 267 00:16:56.759 --> 00:17:00.440 But it was a difficult book. To write to work 268 00:17:00.480 --> 00:17:05.039 went into that one, and people whither found it absolutely 269 00:17:05.079 --> 00:17:08.079 horrifying to read. And I'll tell you the pictures are 270 00:17:08.119 --> 00:17:11.079 shocking you. I didn't pick them. Usually i'll pick the 271 00:17:11.160 --> 00:17:16.079 photographs of the book. I sent them all in and 272 00:17:16.200 --> 00:17:18.279 said someone else is gonna have to pick them. I 273 00:17:18.319 --> 00:17:20.039 don't know what was going on with me at the time, 274 00:17:20.119 --> 00:17:24.319 but I wasn't available to be helpful in that, and 275 00:17:24.440 --> 00:17:27.359 the regular person just wasn't there. And so there are 276 00:17:27.480 --> 00:17:30.680 pictures in there that are so disturbing that I got 277 00:17:30.799 --> 00:17:33.839 to warn you. Yeah, I mean, you see pictures of 278 00:17:33.880 --> 00:17:36.680 the decomposed body of Damon Wells, and you know, this 279 00:17:36.839 --> 00:17:42.000 really horrible stuff, more than I would want to see. 280 00:17:44.799 --> 00:17:47.440 So that's the story on that one. And both the 281 00:17:47.480 --> 00:17:50.319 books came out at the same time. A Headshot, which 282 00:17:50.440 --> 00:17:54.680 is the true crime book about Andrew Webb in the 283 00:17:54.799 --> 00:18:01.039 same peers, and Headlock, which is the private eye novel 284 00:18:01.160 --> 00:18:06.839 with me is the hero and feature Travis Webb. All 285 00:18:06.839 --> 00:18:09.359 I both come at the same time. Some people, including myself, 286 00:18:09.440 --> 00:18:12.279 off and get the titles of the two most confused. 287 00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:17.720 Although head Shot sold much better than Headlock. Although Headlock 288 00:18:17.799 --> 00:18:21.759 is available in a new edition with a fancy do 289 00:18:21.960 --> 00:18:24.039 cover from Wild Blue Press. 290 00:18:26.480 --> 00:18:29.640 Let's talk about Broken Doll. I know that when I 291 00:18:29.799 --> 00:18:33.240 started my true crime journey, I mean I've only been 292 00:18:33.319 --> 00:18:37.920 involved not even twenty years in reading true crime. But 293 00:18:38.079 --> 00:18:40.759 one of the very first people that I saw and 294 00:18:41.680 --> 00:18:44.960 was burbar And the book that I saw, the very 295 00:18:45.000 --> 00:18:48.720 first book I saw from you was Broken Doll in 296 00:18:48.880 --> 00:18:52.519 nineteen ninety five and Everett Washington, a seven year old 297 00:18:52.640 --> 00:18:55.680 Rock Sande Doll was abducted, raped and murdered by Richard 298 00:18:55.759 --> 00:18:59.799 Matthew Clark, a trusted family friend. This is an incredibly 299 00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:05.160 disturbing and unforgettable story. Broken Dolls horror fi. 300 00:19:06.599 --> 00:19:09.759 What's really horrified me was the cover because it says 301 00:19:10.880 --> 00:19:17.160 parents worst nightmare and then my name. See aside from 302 00:19:17.200 --> 00:19:21.599 that in the book, it's even worse. It is a 303 00:19:22.039 --> 00:19:26.880 terrifying story. And what what's really heartbreaking about the whole 304 00:19:26.960 --> 00:19:29.359 thing is not only is the rape and murder of 305 00:19:29.519 --> 00:19:34.839 Rock Sandal a terrible tragedy, the life of the guy 306 00:19:34.920 --> 00:19:38.559 who did it is a terrible tragedy. There is not 307 00:19:38.720 --> 00:19:42.480 a happy moment in nick of life in this entire book. 308 00:19:44.920 --> 00:19:48.759 I mean, it's just it's just heartbreaking. And the thing 309 00:19:48.920 --> 00:19:54.279 is is that as awful as the crime is. This 310 00:19:54.519 --> 00:19:58.240 Richard Matthew Clark is in that classification of what they 311 00:19:58.359 --> 00:20:04.759 call situation child molesters, and they are, according to all research, 312 00:20:05.359 --> 00:20:13.119 the easiest people to treat. He never received any treatment, 313 00:20:13.319 --> 00:20:16.920 never received any counseling after the first time he ever 314 00:20:17.240 --> 00:20:20.599 did something that was questionable. All they did was lock 315 00:20:20.720 --> 00:20:23.000 them up in itself as an Homes County jail for 316 00:20:23.079 --> 00:20:29.559 twelve months and then let him out and had he 317 00:20:29.799 --> 00:20:34.519 and I talked to a situational child molestation experts and 318 00:20:34.680 --> 00:20:37.920 they all said the same thing, and that was, Hey, 319 00:20:38.079 --> 00:20:40.880 we could have fixed that guy in those twelve months 320 00:20:40.920 --> 00:20:43.359 if we would have had therapy to Those are the 321 00:20:43.480 --> 00:20:45.799 easiest people to treat, because it's not about any sort 322 00:20:45.839 --> 00:20:49.559 of sexual obsession, you know, in their mind, it is 323 00:20:49.920 --> 00:20:54.599 a feeling of extreme powerlessness, and they pick on someone 324 00:20:54.640 --> 00:20:57.480 who has no power. It's kind of like a bully, 325 00:20:57.720 --> 00:21:03.279 except extreme and his people who been extremely as what 326 00:21:03.359 --> 00:21:05.480 they had done to them pretty much what they're going 327 00:21:05.519 --> 00:21:08.480 to do to somebody else. Trying to do a role reversal, 328 00:21:09.039 --> 00:21:11.559 and when they're feeling extremely powerless, that's the only way. 329 00:21:12.400 --> 00:21:14.480 But they're not aware of what they're doing. It's not 330 00:21:14.599 --> 00:21:19.079 a conscious thing. But once you're made consciously aware, you know, 331 00:21:19.920 --> 00:21:22.119 it kind of breaks the psycho for some reason. I'm 332 00:21:22.160 --> 00:21:25.680 not a doctor, I'm not a psychologist or a psychiatrist, 333 00:21:25.759 --> 00:21:29.039 but these people are the ones that are treatable, as 334 00:21:29.079 --> 00:21:32.039 opposed to she always say a pedophile who acts on 335 00:21:32.119 --> 00:21:35.519 their pedophilia. Most pedophiles never do act on their pedophilia, 336 00:21:36.279 --> 00:21:38.000 even afraid to go get help for it because it 337 00:21:38.039 --> 00:21:40.759 has such a bad reputations, or just stays. They don't 338 00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:42.559 get help and they don't get better, but at least 339 00:21:42.599 --> 00:21:46.519 they don't do anything bad. The situational child molestors can 340 00:21:46.680 --> 00:21:49.160 be treated, which would be a great bless in the 341 00:21:49.240 --> 00:21:51.839 society because they wouldn't do things like which advands the collected. 342 00:21:52.519 --> 00:21:55.599 And once you get past a certain point, you know, 343 00:21:56.039 --> 00:22:00.359 then everybody suffers. And he suffered all of his life, 344 00:22:00.759 --> 00:22:04.440 and then the family of Roxandele had to suffer. So 345 00:22:04.519 --> 00:22:07.519 it was just tragic all the way around. The family 346 00:22:07.640 --> 00:22:10.920 lived very close to me. I was living in Munchaele Teel, Washington, 347 00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:14.880 which is right by Everett, and in fact her father 348 00:22:16.759 --> 00:22:21.440 who actually lived Matterress a few blocks from me, so 349 00:22:21.440 --> 00:22:23.480 it was very easy to stop buying chat with him, 350 00:22:24.839 --> 00:22:28.839 and he's got his daughter's face tattooed on his chest, 351 00:22:29.039 --> 00:22:36.960 his arm or whatever. It's just and the detective Herndon, 352 00:22:37.480 --> 00:22:40.880 the guy who's got solved the case, who's the youngest 353 00:22:41.039 --> 00:22:46.599 fellow ever to become lead detective in ever Washington, and 354 00:22:46.880 --> 00:22:51.880 solved the case and was almost immediately devoted back to 355 00:22:52.079 --> 00:22:59.720 a driving and beat the cop car for no known reasons. 356 00:23:00.519 --> 00:23:04.279 It's peculiar everything. This is one of those I mean, 357 00:23:04.319 --> 00:23:06.880 you write through crime books. I was worn by Garry 358 00:23:07.000 --> 00:23:10.000 Sea King when we were actually we were in a 359 00:23:10.119 --> 00:23:15.759 bus at the UH. This would be aboucher card. When 360 00:23:16.880 --> 00:23:19.720 after that Overboord came out. I was just about to 361 00:23:19.759 --> 00:23:22.599 do murdering the family, and I was chatting with him, 362 00:23:22.599 --> 00:23:24.440 and of course he already we've been doing for growing 363 00:23:24.480 --> 00:23:26.200 for a while, and I told him. He says, well, 364 00:23:27.319 --> 00:23:29.039 that piece of advice for your brother. He says, be 365 00:23:29.119 --> 00:23:32.400 prepared to cry a lot. He says, it's going to 366 00:23:32.440 --> 00:23:36.119 be very emotionally draining. He says, you know you can 367 00:23:36.200 --> 00:23:42.160 wind up being hard, you know, cynical whatever, But he 368 00:23:42.200 --> 00:23:45.920 says most of us writer types or types send to 369 00:23:46.000 --> 00:23:50.160 be rather mostly sensitive. He says, so be prepared to 370 00:23:50.240 --> 00:23:54.440 cry with the family, to be haunted by the images 371 00:23:54.519 --> 00:23:59.039 you see, you know, and I can't with murdering the family. 372 00:23:59.119 --> 00:24:05.240 I kept picture of Nancy's two kids, their school pictures, 373 00:24:06.480 --> 00:24:10.440 you know, Scott's taped to my computer, you know, just 374 00:24:10.559 --> 00:24:12.680 top computer while I wrote, so I never forgot what 375 00:24:13.000 --> 00:24:14.000 Whoe was writing about. 376 00:24:15.240 --> 00:24:22.680 Yeah. Absolutely, you have a fascinating story. I mean, all 377 00:24:22.720 --> 00:24:25.400 of these books include fascinating stories, but this one is 378 00:24:25.480 --> 00:24:28.480 again one that just sticks out a little bit more. 379 00:24:28.640 --> 00:24:33.079 This mom said kill just for the heinous nature of 380 00:24:33.240 --> 00:24:38.119 this plan, of this plot. Jerry Hymond in two thousand 381 00:24:38.119 --> 00:24:42.400 and one terminal cancer. He had hired Barbara Marie Ople 382 00:24:43.000 --> 00:24:46.519 as a healthcare provider and housekeeper, and she hatches a 383 00:24:46.599 --> 00:24:49.759 plan to have two teens and her own three children 384 00:24:49.839 --> 00:24:54.319 to kill hymen. Yeah again, you say you can't be 385 00:24:54.440 --> 00:24:57.880 detached from these stories. You can see why. Maybe somebody 386 00:24:57.920 --> 00:24:59.640 could say, well, you have to be detached, you have 387 00:24:59.799 --> 00:25:03.799 to be unemotional, but to delve as deep as you 388 00:25:04.200 --> 00:25:08.720 have to in this investigation that you undertake to write 389 00:25:08.759 --> 00:25:13.319 these books. Yeah, you're the furthest thing from detached. 390 00:25:14.519 --> 00:25:17.720 Yeah, uh, this is I mean, I can't say, you know, 391 00:25:17.759 --> 00:25:19.319 I say this about every one of the books, every 392 00:25:19.359 --> 00:25:22.079 one of the stories. Well this is really a strange one. Well, 393 00:25:22.079 --> 00:25:26.720 they're all strange. I mean, there's so much true crime around. 394 00:25:26.720 --> 00:25:29.079 It's not out only in real life, and people read 395 00:25:29.079 --> 00:25:30.960 a lot of true crimes. I think there's more of 396 00:25:31.039 --> 00:25:33.920 it going on than there is. To prove that it isn't, 397 00:25:33.920 --> 00:25:36.200 all you got to do is watch ideas and see 398 00:25:36.240 --> 00:25:38.799 how many times the same crime comes up on the 399 00:25:38.839 --> 00:25:42.799 different programs. You know, there isn't quite enough of enough 400 00:25:42.880 --> 00:25:45.400 true crime, none of enough murders that are strange enough 401 00:25:45.480 --> 00:25:49.759