Speaker 1: Okay, Round two. Name something that's not boring.
Speaker 2: Laundry, a book club, computer solitaire.
Speaker 1: Huh oh, sorry, we were looking for Chumbuck Casino.
Speaker 3: Chum.
Speaker 1: That's right, Chumbucasino dot com as over one hundred casino
Speaker 1: style games joined today and playing for free for your
Speaker 1: chance to redeem some serious prizes. Chum chumbacasino dot com, nobercessary,
Speaker 1: my lowagy plus ters the condition of the busy website retails. Hello,
Speaker 1: it is Ryan and I was on a flight the
Speaker 1: other day playing one of my favorite social spin slot
Speaker 1: games on chumbacasino dot com. I looked over at the
Speaker 1: person sitting next to me, and you know what they
Speaker 1: were doing. They were also playing Chumba Casino. Coincidence, I
Speaker 1: think not everybody's loving having fun with it. Chumba Casino's
Speaker 1: home to hundreds at casino style games. You can play
Speaker 1: for free anytime, anywhere, even at thirty thousand feet. So
Speaker 1: sign up now at Chumbuckcasino dot com to claim you're free.
Speaker 1: Welcome bonus. That's Chumbu Casino dot com. And lived Chumba
Speaker 1: Landeburgs necessary dwod wherever if I lost terms of an
Speaker 1: eating black blot to radio.
Speaker 4: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 4: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 4: written about them. Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every week,
Speaker 4: another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous
Speaker 4: killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 4: journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 3: Good Evening.
Speaker 5: Burrel Bear definitely is a legendary figure in true crime
Speaker 5: writing and broadcasting, co hosting the very first true crime podcast,
Speaker 5: True Crime Uncensored. An Edgar Award winning author and two
Speaker 5: time Anthony Award nominee, Burl Bear is the author of
Speaker 5: nine truly important true crime books in two thousand. Murder
Speaker 5: in the Family was published in two thousand and four,
Speaker 5: Broken Doll in two thousand and eight, Mom Said Kill
Speaker 5: in twenty eleven, Fatal Beauty in twenty twelve, Body Count
Speaker 5: and also Headshot were published Man Overboard in twenty fourteen,
Speaker 5: and with co author Frank C. Girardo Junior, A Taste
Speaker 5: for Murder was published in two thousand and sixteen, as
Speaker 5: was Betrayal in Blue. A short story the Alaska mailbomb
Speaker 5: Conspiracy was also published in twenty sixteen. In this Burl
Speaker 5: Bear retrospective, we will discuss how his true crime writing
Speaker 5: career began, his very first case in book, the murder
Speaker 5: cases that shaped his career, and his incredible personal experiences
Speaker 5: with psychopaths and serial killer writing. These now nine true
Speaker 5: crime classics. The episode tonight is Burl Bear Retrospective with
Speaker 5: my special guest, investigative journalist and author and podcaster extraordinaire,
Speaker 5: the legendary Burl Bear. Welcome to the program, and thank
Speaker 5: you very much for agreeing to this program.
Speaker 3: It's always a pleasure and an honor to be on
Speaker 3: your program, and it's always a pleasure to have you
Speaker 3: on mind. So I think we'll get along fine.
Speaker 5: It's always an honor and a pleasure to have you
Speaker 5: on this program True Murder and this first retrospective. I
Speaker 5: think it's fitting to have somebody of your stature on
Speaker 5: your importance in the two fives six.
Speaker 3: One en shoes. Yeah, that's by stature. I would point
Speaker 3: out your chronology had a couple understandable errors in it. Yes,
Speaker 3: Headshot actually Kave was the first book after Murdering the Family.
Speaker 3: The date that you have is on the Kensington re
Speaker 3: released with this snazzy new cover. So I just thought
Speaker 3: i'd mentioned that, and well, thank you very much. I thought, yeah,
Speaker 3: now go ahead.
Speaker 5: Berl Murdering the Family nineteen eighty seven, Anchorage, Alaska. A murderous,
Speaker 5: sociopathic twenty three year old nephew, slaughters's aunt and two
Speaker 5: of her children. Now this is your first book, As
Speaker 5: I mentioned, murder in the Family. Tell us what you
Speaker 5: were doing at that time? How do you how do
Speaker 5: you manage to become the author of Murder in the Family?
Speaker 5: Tell us how this happens? How does it come to be?
Speaker 3: Okay, I had just published, right, So I didn't publish
Speaker 3: it myself, but i'd had the book man Overboard The
Speaker 3: Counterfeit Resurrection of Phil Champagne published by Northwest Publishing Company,
Speaker 3: the original hardback edition, which is a true crime book
Speaker 3: and was Anthony nominated, which showed rather nice and as
Speaker 3: a true crime book of the year. Didn't win, but
Speaker 3: it was dominated. And it's as you probably don't, it's
Speaker 3: a humorous true crime book. At least it is supposed
Speaker 3: to be humorous. It's supposed to. My theory was its
Speaker 3: investigating the true crime discovery with all the rules. There's
Speaker 3: very very harsh rules at that time in the true
Speaker 3: crime genre, and so I decided I break them all.
Speaker 3: I talk, I break the fourth wall. I talked to
Speaker 3: the characters, I talked to the audience, the reader. I
Speaker 3: do everything you're not supposed to do. But at the
Speaker 3: same time, I have very strong journalistic ethics, very strong
Speaker 3: professional underpinnings. As I was professional journalist. It was kind
Speaker 3: of a literary experiment. It certainly did in terms of
Speaker 3: reviews and critical acclaim much better than I ever imagined.
Speaker 3: He did not do in sales as good as I hoped,
Speaker 3: but in terms of respect, it's guarded me a great
Speaker 3: deal of that, especially from the great Jack Olsen, who
Speaker 3: was probably the best true crime writer I ever encountered,
Speaker 3: and he actually sought me out and came and talked
Speaker 3: to me and told me, how much do you like
Speaker 3: the book? We formed a friendship over that, which of
Speaker 3: course for the lasting impact on me. So it was
Speaker 3: at what they call the ABA, the American Booksellers Association
Speaker 3: has their annual conference, and the publisher man Overboard, had
Speaker 3: a big display for the book. The woman walks up
Speaker 3: to me and has me because he says, I am
Speaker 3: a new agent. I'm Charlotte Dale. Breese and I said, well,
Speaker 3: pleasure to miss you, miss and a man whatever eventually
Speaker 3: contacts me and says, Kensington Publishing is looking for an
Speaker 3: author to write a book about a true crime case
Speaker 3: in Alaska. And I had one question. I said, is
Speaker 3: there a check attached? And he said yes, there is,
Speaker 3: and I said, well, I'm obviously the man for the job. Well,
Speaker 3: it turned out that the fellow who brought the case
Speaker 3: to Kensington was an Anchorage police formerged police officer, so
Speaker 3: he had kind of the inside track on him. But
Speaker 3: he wasn't an AUF. He wasn't a writer. They wanted
Speaker 3: the writer. She knew him and knew me and said,
Speaker 3: here's your guy. Well, I guess they agreed. They signed
Speaker 3: me to a contract and I did the book. I
Speaker 3: hadn't done one before. They told me it had to
Speaker 3: be one hundred thousand words exactly and had to be
Speaker 3: delivered in full on exactly this particular date. Well, coming
Speaker 3: from a background in radio, if they tell you your
Speaker 3: Elvis Presley Special has to be fifty nine minutes and
Speaker 3: thirty seconds and it goes on the air Wednesday the twelfth,
Speaker 3: it can't be delayed until Thursday, and it can't be
Speaker 3: forty eight minutes long. Everything has to be exact, and
Speaker 3: so that's ex altum. On that date of due date
Speaker 3: they received by a federal express a manuscript was exactly
Speaker 3: one hundred thousand words to the letter law. And I
Speaker 3: get this stumpback from this fabulous editor I had there,
Speaker 3: Karen Haws. She says, this is the first time I
Speaker 3: have ever received a manuscript on the exact due date
Speaker 3: that was exactly one hundred thousand words. Beltcheck, grammar check.
Speaker 3: You know it needed a line at it because I'm
Speaker 3: not perfect, of course, But since she hadn't seen that before,
Speaker 3: I thought everybody did that. The book is either. I
Speaker 3: tried to use a lot of action in it, a
Speaker 3: lot of adverbs and a lot of verbs to give
Speaker 3: a feeling of forward motion. And I think if you
Speaker 3: notice at the beginning of the book, that's what kicks off,
Speaker 3: you know, for so and so the nightmare began on
Speaker 3: such and such, and I use a lot of forward
Speaker 3: moving words to try to drag you kicking and screaming
Speaker 3: to the first part of the book. And when it
Speaker 3: gets to the trial, either you're going to slog your
Speaker 3: way through that or you're not, or you're gonna skip it.
Speaker 3: I've noticed, I've learned that a lot of true fans
Speaker 3: don't like trials. They're done interested in that. I find
Speaker 3: them fascinating, in fact, too fascinating. But we're getting that
Speaker 3: when we talk about a Headshot, which is essentially a
Speaker 3: book about that.
Speaker 5: The Yes, Headshot, you're right that this alcoholic Paul Saint
Speaker 5: Pierre had an urge to kill, along with his brother
Speaker 5: Chris and a friend Andrew Webb, and the trio terrorize
Speaker 5: the quiet neighborhood near Tacoma, Washington, with the brutal murder
Speaker 5: of innocent victims. And that's that's an understatement. How did
Speaker 5: you come to why headshot? Again? Is this a Pinnacle release?
Speaker 5: Tell us how you came to a little bit about
Speaker 5: that headshot?
Speaker 3: Yeah, kens didn't. I can't talk to you for a minute.
Speaker 3: Let me slap myself in the face. Okay. Kensington's Pinnacle,
Speaker 3: through Crime Imprint, signed me to a two book contract.
Speaker 3: So here I had another book to do, and okay,
Speaker 3: what do I follow this with? And my editor Karen
Speaker 3: has said, well, give me some suggestions. And I was
Speaker 3: working on a private Eye novel at that time. I
Speaker 3: said I would write one of those and make myself
Speaker 3: the hero, because, as you and I both realized, no
Speaker 3: one else is going to make me the hero of
Speaker 3: a private Eye novel, So if I was going to
Speaker 3: be the case, I had to write it myself. The
Speaker 3: title of that one is Headlock, which sounds awful lot
Speaker 3: like Headshot, but it's a totally different book from a
Speaker 3: different publisher, where I'm the hero of this private Eye novel.
Speaker 3: While I am writing that novel, I am friends with
Speaker 3: a great journalist and brilliant fellow named Travis we who
Speaker 3: appears in the book. As there's a lot of real
Speaker 3: people in the book. It's a vocal fiction with real
Speaker 3: people in it. And we did this book and I
Speaker 3: got great reviews in low sales, and this is typical
Speaker 3: for a mention of my material. And then he comes
Speaker 3: to me and says, you know, my uncle Andrew Webb
Speaker 3: is in prison for murder. And I said, oh, really,
Speaker 3: that's fascinating because where I happened to be right where
Speaker 3: the prisoners. We were in Walla Walla, Washington, where the
Speaker 3: Washington State prisoners. And because yeah, it's a really a
Speaker 3: strange story. My mom has every article and all of
Speaker 3: this and all of that. Sure enough she did. And
Speaker 3: I looked at this story and I went, this is
Speaker 3: really crazy. I mean, this is an insane story. And
Speaker 3: then when I started looking at the trials and the
Speaker 3: legal stuff that went on, it was every bit as
Speaker 3: insane as the people in the crimes and just as bizarre.
Speaker 3: I've never seen it. Well, I'm sure if I looked
Speaker 3: hard enough, I'd find plenty of prostitutorial misconduct. But the
Speaker 3: prosecutorial misconduct this case was so severe. You had judges
Speaker 3: standing up from behind their desk and their robes and
Speaker 3: screaming this case is giving me etc. Headache number eight
Speaker 3: hundred and fifty three and I can't take it anymore,
Speaker 3: and storming out of the courtroom. I mean, they were
Speaker 3: just fed up. So there's like three trials, so what
Speaker 3: two mistrials, three appeals to the State Supreme Court. Sentencing
Speaker 3: documents went missing. After the book was written, I was
Speaker 3: contacted by Christopher Saint Pierre's attorney saying that Christopher, who
Speaker 3: should have been out by it by then, was still
Speaker 3: in prison. Well why is he still in prison? He
Speaker 3: should have been out, you know, a couple of years ago.
Speaker 3: And he said, well, he was sentenced to service sentence consecutive.
Speaker 3: We call it concurrently, but there prisons trying to say
Speaker 3: yes to service consecutively, which would be built there forever.
Speaker 3: I said no, no, no, no, no. He said, well,
Speaker 3: do you have the sentencing documents? I said, well, it
Speaker 3: was covered by the Prospect front page article on the paper.
Speaker 3: It's no secret what his sentencing was. He said, well,
Speaker 3: where's the actual sentencing document, stamped by the state, signed
Speaker 3: by the judge. You must have it because we can't
Speaker 3: find it. And I had a copy of absolutely everything
Speaker 3: later the case. The State of Washington had never seen
Speaker 3: anyone get as much material from them as I did
Speaker 3: in writing that book. They couldn't believe it. I had
Speaker 3: to write a van to take all the stuff from
Speaker 3: the State Supreme Court library or warehouse whatever. It was
Speaker 3: so much material, and no one could find the sentence documents.
Speaker 3: And I went through there. No, it's missing from here,
Speaker 3: missing from everywhere. And that's not a coincidence, that's intentional.
Speaker 3: And so then they said, well, was there anywhere else
Speaker 3: you can find it? Well, of course I got the
Speaker 3: newspaper articles, but they wouldn't accept that. I tried to
Speaker 3: get the videotapes, the TV station had videotape to sentencing,
Speaker 3: but a new company abought the TV station and that
Speaker 3: tape was erased, and so they would not let this
Speaker 3: guy out of prison. Despite they even brought the judge
Speaker 3: and the court reporter back into a courtroom and had
Speaker 3: them testify as to what the original sentencing was, and
Speaker 3: the Department of Corrections would not accept that either, and
Speaker 3: they kept the guy in prison. The only reason they
Speaker 3: let him out is he got I believe, multiple clerosis,
Speaker 3: and they let him out because he was so ill.
Speaker 3: And he was the one so he had had the
Speaker 3: least to do with any crime. He's the one who
Speaker 3: went to the police and said, my brother, and Andrew
Speaker 3: Webb killed these people and I can't you know, like
Speaker 3: his KK my mouth said about it. And the prosecutor,
Speaker 3: in one of his great brilliant moves, said to the press,
Speaker 3: the first one through the door gets the deal. Well,
Speaker 3: the first one through the door was Andrew Webb, the
Speaker 3: most guilty of them all, and he made a deal
Speaker 3: with the prosecutor in return for their not being a
Speaker 3: death penalty, in return for their for him by getting
Speaker 3: the ability to be paroled, so he didn't get life
Speaker 3: without parole. He got life with possibility of parole. He
Speaker 3: would testify against Christopher Saint Pierre at Paul Saint Pierre
Speaker 3: and implicate them in the murder of these two people.
Speaker 3: Then he got upon the stand. He didn't do it,
Speaker 3: he said, no, actually they didn't. I'm totally responsible. I
Speaker 3: take full responsibility. I'm the one who slipped the throat
Speaker 3: of Damon Wells. And that's what the trial was about,
Speaker 3: that particular murder. And he says, and they had nothing
Speaker 3: to do with it. They were there, they were shocked,
Speaker 3: but they did not kill the kid or know I
Speaker 3: was going to kill him. Well, of course the prosecutor
Speaker 3: was outraged because he'd already signed the deal. It was
Speaker 3: already a done deal, and so he tricked the prosecutor
Speaker 3: and he actually told the truth when he got up
Speaker 3: on the stand, and the truth was that the other
Speaker 3: two guys had nothing to do with the murder of
Speaker 3: Damon Wells. He was the only one responsible. But even
Speaker 3: though Christopher Saint Pierre was found guilty of that and
Speaker 3: then it was overturned, but he was found guilty of
Speaker 3: the second murder. I mean, it's just a mess, total mess.
Speaker 3: But it was a difficult book. To write to work
Speaker 3: went into that one, and people whither found it absolutely
Speaker 3: horrifying to read. And I'll tell you the pictures are
Speaker 3: shocking you. I didn't pick them. Usually i'll pick the
Speaker 3: photographs of the book. I sent them all in and
Speaker 3: said someone else is gonna have to pick them. I
Speaker 3: don't know what was going on with me at the time,
Speaker 3: but I wasn't available to be helpful in that, and
Speaker 3: the regular person just wasn't there. And so there are
Speaker 3: pictures in there that are so disturbing that I got
Speaker 3: to warn you. Yeah, I mean, you see pictures of
Speaker 3: the decomposed body of Damon Wells, and you know, this
Speaker 3: really horrible stuff, more than I would want to see.
Speaker 3: So that's the story on that one. And both the
Speaker 3: books came out at the same time. A Headshot, which
Speaker 3: is the true crime book about Andrew Webb in the
Speaker 3: same peers, and Headlock, which is the private eye novel
Speaker 3: with me is the hero and feature Travis Webb. All
Speaker 3: I both come at the same time. Some people, including myself,
Speaker 3: off and get the titles of the two most confused.
Speaker 3: Although head Shot sold much better than Headlock. Although Headlock
Speaker 3: is available in a new edition with a fancy do
Speaker 3: cover from Wild Blue Press.
Speaker 5: Let's talk about Broken Doll. I know that when I
Speaker 5: started my true crime journey, I mean I've only been
Speaker 5: involved not even twenty years in reading true crime. But
Speaker 5: one of the very first people that I saw and
Speaker 5: was burbar And the book that I saw, the very
Speaker 5: first book I saw from you was Broken Doll in
Speaker 5: nineteen ninety five and Everett Washington, a seven year old
Speaker 5: Rock Sande Doll was abducted, raped and murdered by Richard
Speaker 5: Matthew Clark, a trusted family friend. This is an incredibly
Speaker 5: disturbing and unforgettable story. Broken Dolls horror fi.
Speaker 3: What's really horrified me was the cover because it says
Speaker 3: parents worst nightmare and then my name. See aside from
Speaker 3: that in the book, it's even worse. It is a
Speaker 3: terrifying story. And what what's really heartbreaking about the whole
Speaker 3: thing is not only is the rape and murder of
Speaker 3: Rock Sandal a terrible tragedy, the life of the guy
Speaker 3: who did it is a terrible tragedy. There is not
Speaker 3: a happy moment in nick of life in this entire book.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's just it's just heartbreaking. And the thing
Speaker 3: is is that as awful as the crime is. This
Speaker 3: Richard Matthew Clark is in that classification of what they
Speaker 3: call situation child molesters, and they are, according to all research,
Speaker 3: the easiest people to treat. He never received any treatment,
Speaker 3: never received any counseling after the first time he ever
Speaker 3: did something that was questionable. All they did was lock
Speaker 3: them up in itself as an Homes County jail for
Speaker 3: twelve months and then let him out and had he
Speaker 3: and I talked to a situational child molestation experts and
Speaker 3: they all said the same thing, and that was, Hey,
Speaker 3: we could have fixed that guy in those twelve months
Speaker 3: if we would have had therapy to Those are the
Speaker 3: easiest people to treat, because it's not about any sort
Speaker 3: of sexual obsession, you know, in their mind, it is
Speaker 3: a feeling of extreme powerlessness, and they pick on someone
Speaker 3: who has no power. It's kind of like a bully,
Speaker 3: except extreme and his people who been extremely as what
Speaker 3: they had done to them pretty much what they're going
Speaker 3: to do to somebody else. Trying to do a role reversal,
Speaker 3: and when they're feeling extremely powerless, that's the only way.
Speaker 3: But they're not aware of what they're doing. It's not
Speaker 3: a conscious thing. But once you're made consciously aware, you know,
Speaker 3: it kind of breaks the psycho for some reason. I'm
Speaker 3: not a doctor, I'm not a psychologist or a psychiatrist,
Speaker 3: but these people are the ones that are treatable, as
Speaker 3: opposed to she always say a pedophile who acts on
Speaker 3: their pedophilia. Most pedophiles never do act on their pedophilia,
Speaker 3: even afraid to go get help for it because it
Speaker 3: has such a bad reputations, or just stays. They don't
Speaker 3: get help and they don't get better, but at least
Speaker 3: they don't do anything bad. The situational child molestors can
Speaker 3: be treated, which would be a great bless in the
Speaker 3: society because they wouldn't do things like which advands the collected.
Speaker 3: And once you get past a certain point, you know,
Speaker 3: then everybody suffers. And he suffered all of his life,
Speaker 3: and then the family of Roxandele had to suffer. So
Speaker 3: it was just tragic all the way around. The family
Speaker 3: lived very close to me. I was living in Munchaele Teel, Washington,
Speaker 3: which is right by Everett, and in fact her father
Speaker 3: who actually lived Matterress a few blocks from me, so
Speaker 3: it was very easy to stop buying chat with him,
Speaker 3: and he's got his daughter's face tattooed on his chest,
Speaker 3: his arm or whatever. It's just and the detective Herndon,
Speaker 3: the guy who's got solved the case, who's the youngest
Speaker 3: fellow ever to become lead detective in ever Washington, and
Speaker 3: solved the case and was almost immediately devoted back to
Speaker 3: a driving and beat the cop car for no known reasons.
Speaker 3: It's peculiar everything. This is one of those I mean,
Speaker 3: you write through crime books. I was worn by Garry
Speaker 3: Sea King when we were actually we were in a
Speaker 3: bus at the UH. This would be aboucher card. When
Speaker 3: after that Overboord came out. I was just about to
Speaker 3: do murdering the family, and I was chatting with him,
Speaker 3: and of course he already we've been doing for growing
Speaker 3: for a while, and I told him. He says, well,
Speaker 3: that piece of advice for your brother. He says, be
Speaker 3: prepared to cry a lot. He says, it's going to
Speaker 3: be very emotionally draining. He says, you know you can
Speaker 3: wind up being hard, you know, cynical whatever, But he
Speaker 3: says most of us writer types or types send to
Speaker 3: be rather mostly sensitive. He says, so be prepared to
Speaker 3: cry with the family, to be haunted by the images
Speaker 3: you see, you know, and I can't with murdering the family.
Speaker 3: I kept picture of Nancy's two kids, their school pictures,
Speaker 3: you know, Scott's taped to my computer, you know, just
Speaker 3: top computer while I wrote, so I never forgot what
Speaker 3: Whoe was writing about.
Speaker 5: Yeah. Absolutely, you have a fascinating story. I mean, all
Speaker 5: of these books include fascinating stories, but this one is
Speaker 5: again one that just sticks out a little bit more.
Speaker 5: This mom said kill just for the heinous nature of
Speaker 5: this plan, of this plot. Jerry Hymond in two thousand
Speaker 5: and one terminal cancer. He had hired Barbara Marie Ople
Speaker 5: as a healthcare provider and housekeeper, and she hatches a
Speaker 5: plan to have two teens and her own three children
Speaker 5: to kill hymen. Yeah again, you say you can't be
Speaker 5: detached from these stories. You can see why. Maybe somebody
Speaker 5: could say, well, you have to be detached, you have
Speaker 5: to be unemotional, but to delve as deep as you
Speaker 5: have to in this investigation that you undertake to write
Speaker 5: these books. Yeah, you're the furthest thing from detached.
Speaker 3: Yeah, uh, this is I mean, I can't say, you know,
Speaker 3: I say this about every one of the books, every
Speaker 3: one of the stories. Well this is really a strange one. Well,
Speaker 3: they're all strange. I mean, there's so much true crime around.
Speaker 3: It's not out only in real life, and people read
Speaker 3: a lot of true crimes. I think there's more of
Speaker 3: it going on than there is. To prove that it isn't,
Speaker 3: all you got to do is watch ideas and see
Speaker 3: how many times the same crime comes up on the
Speaker 3: different programs. You know, there isn't quite enough of enough
Speaker 3: true crime, none of enough murders that are strange enough
Speaker 3: to make a show out of. Uh do you want?
Speaker 3: I mean if I was programming a true crime channel,
Speaker 3: I would want the same thing they want, or oxygen wants.
Speaker 3: I want stories they've got something strange to them, you know,
Speaker 3: a twists to the tale. Because smoking gun, you know,
Speaker 3: Sally comes in and shoots Joe. That doesn't make a
Speaker 3: you know, an half hour or hour TV show. You
Speaker 3: gotta have the investigation, you gotta have something strange to it.
Speaker 3: And now, in this particular story, when Mom said kill,
Speaker 3: the twist of the tale isn't she was hard to
Speaker 3: solve because it was easy to solve. That wasn't a problem.
Speaker 3: What's so strange is the fact that the murder took
Speaker 3: place in the first place, that even happened. What I
Speaker 3: found particularly fascinating was the relationship between Barbara Ople and
Speaker 3: her daughter Heather. Heather did whatever Mom said. That's why
Speaker 3: I called the book Mom said kill, Mom says kill
Speaker 3: you go kill. You do whatever Mom says. That was
Speaker 3: really the dynamic of the relationship. Unfortunately, the mother was
Speaker 3: no more intellectually or maturely advanced than her daughter. She
Speaker 3: was essentially one of the kids, except the very bossy one.
Speaker 3: She was the alpha child. She said she had her
Speaker 3: own to he say mental limitations. I don't mean such like, ah,
Speaker 3: she was crazy. I mean she did actually have her
Speaker 3: does have limitations, among them being in planning this crime.
Speaker 3: But she worked on this and Dan. She really was
Speaker 3: obsessed with killing her employer, who was really a nice guy,
Speaker 3: nice to her, nice to the kids. Why why did
Speaker 3: she want to kill him? He had forty thousand dollars
Speaker 3: or something like that in his bank account. She wanted
Speaker 3: to get the money, and she forget if she killed him,
Speaker 3: she could get the money, She could steal the money.
Speaker 3: She did not think or plan past the moment when
Speaker 3: his body hits the ground. If you're going to plan
Speaker 3: a murder, which is not a bright thing to do,
Speaker 3: but if you were, hopefully you would, if you wanted
Speaker 3: to get away with it, you would plan on what
Speaker 3: you do after you killed the person. You know, if
Speaker 3: the opening of the book it takes for murder of
Speaker 3: Frank and I talk about all the different ways to
Speaker 3: kill somebody and why you're getting get caught every time.
Speaker 3: You know, it just doesn't work. You know, you're just
Speaker 3: not gonna be able to get away with it. She
Speaker 3: didn't even think about trying to get away with it.
Speaker 3: She just thought about doing it. So now she's got
Speaker 3: a dead body on the floor, and it never occurred
Speaker 3: to her what do I do now? She didn't run away,
Speaker 3: She just moved two blocks away down to the motel.
Speaker 3: I mean, I mean, there was just no go what
Speaker 3: do I do now? Thought? Given to the whole product,
Speaker 3: it was just going to kill him and I'll have
Speaker 3: the money. So it was really to catch him. But
Speaker 3: it's the whole thing, is that dynamics between the mom
Speaker 3: and the kids and the little the youngest kid. Timpany
Speaker 3: had to clean up the blood and the brains, of
Speaker 3: the wall thot sorry for her. She was after the
Speaker 3: book came out, she would go into the grocery store
Speaker 3: nearby where she lived, and what book is plastered has
Speaker 3: just come out and it is in the number one
Speaker 3: position there and it's bomb said kill with her mom's picture,
Speaker 3: you know, right there on the front. And they kind
Speaker 3: of freaked her out. So the store, much to my room.
Speaker 3: I thought the stores should have held firm and kept
Speaker 3: the book on the shelf. No, they took the book
Speaker 3: to you know, it could be easier to tell the kid,
Speaker 3: you know, don't walk over to the book department.
Speaker 6: Wait the Lucky Landslide. You can get lucky just about anywhere.
Speaker 2: It's your captain speaking. We've got clear runway and the
Speaker 2: weather's fine, but we're just going to circle up here
Speaker 2: a while and get lucky. No, no, nothing like that.
Speaker 2: It's just these cash prizes at quick So I suggest
Speaker 2: you sit back, keep your trade table upright, and start
Speaker 2: getting lucky.
Speaker 6: Play for free at Lucky landslots dot com.
Speaker 7: Are you feeling lucky? No purchase necessary void. We're prohibited
Speaker 7: by Law eighteen plus. Terms and conditions apply. See website
Speaker 7: for details.
Speaker 6: With Lucky Landslots you can get lucky just about anywhere.
Speaker 2: Dearly beloved, we are gathered here today.
Speaker 4: Has anyone seen the bride and groom?
Speaker 2: Sorry?
Speaker 6: Sorry, we're here. We were getting lucky in the limo
Speaker 6: and we lost track of time.
Speaker 1: No Lucky Land casino with cash prizes that add up
Speaker 1: quicker than a guess registered in luck case, I pronounce
Speaker 1: you lucky.
Speaker 7: Play for free at lucky landslots dot com. Dagy bonuses
Speaker 7: are waiting. No purchase necessary boid. We're prohibited by Law
Speaker 7: eighteen plus. Terms and conditions apply. See website for details.
Speaker 3: That this is a straight strange story.
Speaker 5: You have another story and containing fatal beauty with wealthy
Speaker 5: Jimmy Jost's law time lover, Ronda Glover claimed after fifteen
Speaker 5: years that Jost was violent and threatened her and she
Speaker 5: had killed him in self defense. Oh again. Yeah, but
Speaker 5: in the court we heard stories and you reported on
Speaker 5: them of devil worship and sexual perversion.
Speaker 3: And no, I don't know if there's any sexual perversion.
Speaker 3: There was just a lot of sexual participants. I mean,
Speaker 3: there was stacked like cord would. I don't know if
Speaker 3: they qualified as a perversion or not. But she was
Speaker 3: just a blog talk radio, isn't it so coveryer his kids?
Speaker 3: I think the technical term for Ronda Glover is he's
Speaker 3: batshit crazy, nuttier her fruitcake and the interesting thing is
Speaker 3: all interesting thing if there wasn't an interesting thing about
Speaker 3: this case. When I got hold of Rondo, unlike most
Speaker 3: people who got her by the years, I just got
Speaker 3: bolder by writing. I said, Ronda, I want you to
Speaker 3: be able to comment on everything in this book. I
Speaker 3: want to play to her ego. You know, I'm gonna
Speaker 3: give you free reign. You can say whatever you want,
Speaker 3: you can correct it, you can, you know, contradict it everybody.
Speaker 3: I want you to have full rain on this. And
Speaker 3: she says, welcome. She says, you know, I've never been
Speaker 3: in a mental institution. I've never had the metal problem.
Speaker 3: People trying to say I'm crazy. Can you get my
Speaker 3: metal records? I can't get him? Can you get them? Oh?
Speaker 3: I thought, I'm all right. She could in and out
Speaker 3: of mental institutions all over life, poor thing, and never
Speaker 3: had really real comprehensive, ongoing treatment. If she had met
Speaker 3: she didn't take them. And she I mean she had
Speaker 3: been diagnosed. And I kid with the phrase I used.
Speaker 3: The book is whether they know that she's got a
Speaker 3: severe mental problem, a psychosis of some sort but not
Speaker 3: otherwise specified. It was. They could never hold her still
Speaker 3: long enough, or hold her down long enough to do
Speaker 3: a thorough enough critigue or examination of exactly what kind
Speaker 3: of psychosis she had and what was triggering it. On
Speaker 3: top of that, she was self medicating with massive amounts
Speaker 3: of methanephetamine cocaine, which wasn't exactly helping her mental state.
Speaker 3: Adding to her paranoia, she thought there were demons in
Speaker 3: the walls that well. Her primary delusion was that her
Speaker 3: husband and knew were actually wasn't her husband's what kind
Speaker 3: of her common law husband or longtime boyfriend Jimmy, father
Speaker 3: of her child, that he and George W. Bush were
Speaker 3: having homosexual sex with clones in the cave under her house.
Speaker 3: Right now. You think that that alone would disqualify her
Speaker 3: from stand being fit to stand trial, But they made
Speaker 3: her fit to stand trial by giving her Sarah quall
Speaker 3: or something to calm her down. And then they took
Speaker 3: her aside and said, listener on it. You can't mention
Speaker 3: the cave or the clones or the devil, because it's
Speaker 3: too dangerous if you talk about that it's too dangerous,
Speaker 3: and she took.
Speaker 5: That to me.
Speaker 3: And if you talk about these demons are going to
Speaker 3: come kill your kid, or kill you, or kill your mother.
Speaker 3: And so because it was too dangerous to talk about
Speaker 3: it in the courtroom, it was never brought up. If
Speaker 3: it had been brought up, so it might have said, hey,
Speaker 3: wait a second, what's she doing testifyings obviously nuts, But
Speaker 3: they had her competence to stand trial. She wasn't really
Speaker 3: competent to stand try. In my opinion, she wasn't competent
Speaker 3: to sit trial and a little stand trial. I went
Speaker 3: to see her in prison. That was a strange experience.
Speaker 3: I usually don't go see the murderers or accused the
Speaker 3: cycle paths in prison. I got enough cyclepaths walk around
Speaker 3: the streets of Los Angeles. I don't need to go
Speaker 3: see him in prison. And she's on the other side
Speaker 3: of the plexa glass. And fortunately I had quite a
Speaker 3: lot of experience in the people on psychedelics back in
Speaker 3: the sixties, who have the attention span of a goldfish.
Speaker 3: Oh look there's a castle. Oh look there's a castle.
Speaker 3: That was kind of like dealing with Rondo. If I
Speaker 3: pissed her off. I could put her in a good
Speaker 3: mood immediately by going, oh, rond, I got to tell
Speaker 3: you how brilliant you were to say such and such
Speaker 3: right away. Her face would light up with a blazing
Speaker 3: smile and she just you know, you see her puff
Speaker 3: up like a blowfish, you know. So I could, I
Speaker 3: hate you word manipulate, but I could at least influence
Speaker 3: her mood. If I said something that made her mad,
Speaker 3: you could see it instantly, and that was kind of scary.
Speaker 3: But I could, you know, change the channel by what
Speaker 3: I said. And I did notice how she would modify
Speaker 3: things depending on what was in the news, like you know,
Speaker 3: things changed. Oh yes, Jimmy was into that if it
Speaker 3: was something bad. You know, she always felt that he
Speaker 3: was in league with the devil. But his face was
Speaker 3: of the twenty dollar bill, except on the twenty dollar bill,
Speaker 3: his face that he was wearing a leather gag mask,
Speaker 3: you know, s and m stuff. Wish he wasn't, of course,
Speaker 3: stay it was real peculiar talking to her, And I
Speaker 3: mean people were very concerned about her her mental state,
Speaker 3: but it wasn't It's not always easy to get someone
Speaker 3: with mental health problems and get them help and when
Speaker 3: she was first arrested, they didn't arrest her for murder.
Speaker 3: They arrested her on firearms violations. And you want to
Speaker 3: talk about, you know, gun control. Hear this woman who
Speaker 3: has been in and out of mental institutions or mental
Speaker 3: health facilities all of her life, who is diagnosed as
Speaker 3: having psychosis, purchasing a weapon, you know, down there at
Speaker 3: the firing range, practicing on killing this guy. She's even
Speaker 3: asked the instructor, Okay, let's say I'm upstairs and this
Speaker 3: guy's coming up the stairs to see me. You know,
Speaker 3: when I'm in this room, how do I shoot him?
Speaker 3: You know, they arrested her on firearms violation because when
Speaker 3: she filled out the paperwork, she didn't tell the truth.
Speaker 3: You didn't do a check. They don't take those forms
Speaker 3: to go check to see if you're honest or not,
Speaker 3: which is a great boon for the medal. Ell I
Speaker 3: mean dishonest. She put down false address, she put down
Speaker 3: a false personal history, and she lied on her firearm registration.
Speaker 3: That's a crime. That's what she was arrested for. They
Speaker 3: didn't want to hurry up and do the murder charges
Speaker 3: until they already had her in custody similar to Kirby Anthony.
Speaker 3: When they arrested Kirby Anthony and por Alaska on the
Speaker 3: Newman murder homicide, if they didn't arrest him for murder,
Speaker 3: they arrested him because there was a marijuana cigarette the ashtray.
Speaker 3: That's why they arrested him. And if I could flash
Speaker 3: back to that one just for a moment, then in
Speaker 3: addition to Kirby Anthony having killed Nancy Newman and her
Speaker 3: two little kids, he also murdered some other people. He
Speaker 3: murdered Walter Napagie, who was a transsexual in Anchorage, because
Speaker 3: he didn't know that Walter was Walter and had Walter
Speaker 3: performed moral sex on him. And then when he figured
Speaker 3: out that Walller was a guy and not a girl,
Speaker 3: who murdered him, put him in a wheelbarrow and dumbed
Speaker 3: him in an alley. And if the cops mentioned to
Speaker 3: Kirby that he'd murdered these two little kids, didn't phase him,
Speaker 3: and they murdered the little kids, but if they mentioned Walter,
Speaker 3: Kirby would just get furious because it was upsetting, not
Speaker 3: that he killed anybody, but it's upsetting that that he'd
Speaker 3: had sex with Walder when Walder was a god. You know,
Speaker 3: they didn't killing little kids but having sex with Walder. Oh,
Speaker 3: he was furious about that. He'd also apparently killed a
Speaker 3: twelve year old girl allegedly back in Idaho. That's why
Speaker 3: they went to Alaska to get away from that. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I had problems.
Speaker 5: Incredible tale. Incredible tale. Uh that became on became a
Speaker 5: best seller too. That that book was very New York.
Speaker 3: Times bestseller board. Were we surprised about that? Uh? That
Speaker 3: that was on the part of the last thing I
Speaker 3: expected as a you know, a paper mass market paperback
Speaker 3: true crime book. And my first you know, she always
Speaker 3: a serious one. Good Man Over was humorous, My first
Speaker 3: serious one, my first one for Kensington, was going to
Speaker 3: be a New York Times bestseller. I would never believe you.
Speaker 3: And when, of course they didn't believe it. They didn't
Speaker 3: believe it. They weren't prepared for it. When I first
Speaker 3: hit the New York Times bestseller list, it was the
Speaker 3: same week we ran out of books because it sold
Speaker 3: so many so fast, they didn't have any more books
Speaker 3: to sell, so it was on its way up. The
Speaker 3: next week it would have been the top ten best sellers.
Speaker 3: It was just on the edge there. You know, it
Speaker 3: made the list, but it would have been even higher
Speaker 3: if they'd had more books to sell. They didn't drop
Speaker 3: back down. And I don't know why. If it was
Speaker 3: a New York Times bestseller, it must have been the title,
Speaker 3: because people don't know what a book if they like
Speaker 3: a book it on till after they buy and read it.
Speaker 3: So it must have been a combination of the title
Speaker 3: and the description on the back. I guess once people
Speaker 3: read it, they recommended it to other people, got a
Speaker 3: lot of great reviews, and they look on Amazon and
Speaker 3: people say how much it bothered them to read it,
Speaker 3: but they read it anyway.
Speaker 5: Well, you know, doing you know, doing this, doing this
Speaker 5: show the I did an interview about Murder in the
Speaker 5: Family till much later, So just a few years ago
Speaker 5: I read Murder in the Family, so I had the
Speaker 5: perspective of reading it. And now when you say this
Speaker 5: is my very first book, they were impressed because your
Speaker 5: writing was impressive and jack Olson giving you the accolades
Speaker 5: that he did, Like you say, jack Olson, When I
Speaker 5: first read true Crime, I read jack Olson and jack
Speaker 5: Olson yeah, absolutely, and the stories too, and you and
Speaker 5: you inherited that same ability through Pinnacle and through just
Speaker 5: where you were geographically at the time, and because of
Speaker 5: the author that you were, you were able to get
Speaker 5: stories that resonate that are just just by the description
Speaker 5: on some of these books, you are compelled to pick
Speaker 5: up that book.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't want to read that one.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 3: The thing is that, you know, true crime, here's a
Speaker 3: female driven genre, majority of books about by women, and
Speaker 3: you're really marketing to women, which is somewhat problematic on
Speaker 3: some of the books because like portrayal them blue and
Speaker 3: I think maybe there I'm almost tempted to change the
Speaker 3: title and change the cover on that and put his
Speaker 3: wife's picture on the front with the headline my husband
Speaker 3: was the second most corrupt copy of the history of
Speaker 3: the n MIPD. And I think it's so better because
Speaker 3: we even say the introduction to that book, which I
Speaker 3: don't even talk about later, but as long as we're
Speaker 3: on the topic, we say by the introduction that this
Speaker 3: is a you know, a cop story is a male
Speaker 3: driven story. Lots of testosterone here. You know, the guys
Speaker 3: can tell you dates and times and places and cadavers,
Speaker 3: but the women of the emotional barometer, you know, what's
Speaker 3: going on? And so we start the book story wise
Speaker 3: with the Kenyurell's wife, you know, in home alone with
Speaker 3: her and the kids and the dog, and all these
Speaker 3: policemen hiding in the books just set me crazy. Did
Speaker 3: into her house and arrested in her and she don't
Speaker 3: know what the hell is going on.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 3: We started from her perspective, and we had her on
Speaker 3: the show talking about it too, And that was one
Speaker 3: of our most downloaded shows because I have that title.
Speaker 3: My husband, that jerk who I love with all my heart,
Speaker 3: was like, what were the most corrupt cops the NYPD?
Speaker 5: Anyway, if you talk about betrayal in Blue too, where
Speaker 5: while we're on the subject, we might as well talk
Speaker 5: about that because after Pinnacle decided not to pursue true
Speaker 5: crime the way they were, they were that they were
Speaker 5: the premiere independent especially true crime book destination in America
Speaker 5: and world wide Canada, of all kinds of international places.
Speaker 5: They were really the the true crime book.
Speaker 3: And Berkeley were putting on one a month.
Speaker 5: And they were embracing a lot of the stories that
Speaker 5: I think the true crime well, I know the true
Speaker 5: crime audience was looking for. As we saw when the
Speaker 5: true crime podcast explosion happened. People weren't so adverse to
Speaker 5: hearing about gore. Whether it's a female audience that primarily
Speaker 5: reads true crime books, they were not so hesitant to
Speaker 5: read details. That's what now I think Pinnacle was tapping
Speaker 5: into that. There was the same stories that you and
Speaker 5: I would would read. These the women were reading and
Speaker 5: and enjoying and and not batting an eye at all
Speaker 5: the details, even at.
Speaker 3: The murder. You know, you can put murder in the
Speaker 3: title makes a big difference too. They like, they like murders,
Speaker 3: but a lot of it is relationship murders and like
Speaker 3: murdering the family.
Speaker 5: Uh.
Speaker 3: And you know, women tend to be more relationship tuned
Speaker 3: in than the guys are for the most part. Sure,
Speaker 3: and so I mean we want to know. Uh. There's
Speaker 3: also the element that they use in news. I'm sure
Speaker 3: they do in Canada the United States, And it's real
Speaker 3: typical of Erica. Does all the newscasts have something to
Speaker 3: make you feel better or more fortunate than somebody else?
Speaker 3: You know, I'm not as screwed up as that person.
Speaker 3: Well I got it better than them. And almost all
Speaker 3: the news nightly newscasts will have one little tidbit of
Speaker 3: that and something to be afraid of and then a
Speaker 3: happy story about an animal. Uh a little format uh.
Speaker 3: And so you read these stories about husbands who kill
Speaker 3: their wives, wives and kill their husbands, and some real
Speaker 3: sick ones like lovers who kill their own brothers and sisters.
Speaker 3: You know, weird stuff. Make it off on it or
Speaker 3: got what's that one that our very flowers did about
Speaker 3: the couple that travel around on their van picking up
Speaker 3: sex slaves and kill will you know not? The second
Speaker 3: places murders. That's what it was called. Wonder where they hold?
Speaker 3: These people come from glad. I don't know them, but
Speaker 3: you know when when I started doing my podcast through
Speaker 3: Crime Uncensored with the Great U, Late Great Don Woldman, Yes,
Speaker 3: this is going to be interesting because it was on
Speaker 3: Outlaw Radio, which is heavy, heavy, heavy male. As I said,
Speaker 3: it was like for men eighteen to twenty five with
Speaker 3: a good chance of doing twenty five to thirty. We smoke,
Speaker 3: we drink, we interrupt as the slogan, you know, so
Speaker 3: like a bunch of bozos and if I could do it,
Speaker 3: if I gonna do it. Matt allens Bur wants to
Speaker 3: do a show which just before mine, what do you
Speaker 3: want to do? Well, I just had true crime books
Speaker 3: come out, and we'll do a true crime show. And
Speaker 3: on the last Don Woldman is an attorney with me.
Speaker 3: He was a regular mad show too, and so maybe
Speaker 3: we get men interested in true crime if we do
Speaker 3: it skew towards the male audience, joking around, being rude.
Speaker 3: You know, now people probably look at us and go, guy,
Speaker 3: what a bunch of eight? Oh these guys are? You know,
Speaker 3: because it's not so many truth crime podcasts where people
Speaker 3: are responsible professionals. We may be professionals acting you're responsible.
Speaker 3: But there was a method to our madness, and that
Speaker 3: was to try to get guys into paging. We started well,
Speaker 3: we always off our show joking around, and then gradually
Speaker 3: as the show progresses, as a rule, it becomes more
Speaker 3: serious because his crimes are serious. But we always have
Speaker 3: that kind of joking guy sitting around in a bar approach,
Speaker 3: because that's how the show began and that's why the
Speaker 3: show actually does take place. Get a bar in Matt
Speaker 3: Allen's backyard with the light and applause. It looks exactly
Speaker 3: like a you know, eighteen seventy six Staventa style bar
Speaker 3: saloon complete with swinging doors and real alcohol which I
Speaker 3: don't indulge in.
Speaker 5: Thank god, Yes, and fantastic interviews. Let's use this as
Speaker 5: an opportunity for Elth to just break for a second
Speaker 5: to talk about our sponsor, which is Ritual. We all
Speaker 5: want to do the right thing to keep our bodies
Speaker 5: healthy in the long run, but even if we try
Speaker 5: really hard to eat kale salads and drink green smoothies,
Speaker 5: we're still most likely not getting all of the essential
Speaker 5: nutrients we need on a daily basis. Enter Ritual, the
Speaker 5: obsessively researched vitamin for women. Rituals Essentials have the nutrients
Speaker 5: most of us don't get enough of from food, all
Speaker 5: in their clean absorbable forms, no shady additives or ingredients
Speaker 5: that can do more harm to your body than good.
Speaker 5: Two easy to take capsules provide nine nutrients you need
Speaker 5: to support a strong foundation for your health. My wife
Speaker 5: Lisa decided to take Ritual. She liked how much research
Speaker 5: Ritual had put in to create their vitamins. She's taken
Speaker 5: them for about a month so far and she feels great.
Speaker 5: She feels she's well covered nutrient wise, and really appreciate
Speaker 5: you can take them without a meal. Ritual Essential for
Speaker 5: Women is the multivitamin reimagine from D three to Omega three.
Speaker 5: Ritual's Essential for Women helps fill gaps in a woman's diet.
Speaker 5: There no nausea, capsule design is gentle on an empty stomach,
Speaker 5: and there's a mint tab in every bottle to keep
Speaker 5: things fresh so you don't get that fishy aftertaste common
Speaker 5: with most Omega threes. Better health doesn't happen overnight, and
Speaker 5: right now, Ritual is offering my listeners ten percent off
Speaker 5: during their first three months. Fill in the gaps in
Speaker 5: your diet with Essential for Women, a small step that
Speaker 5: helps support a healthy foundation for your body. Visit ritual
Speaker 5: dot com slash murder to start your ritual today. That's
Speaker 5: ten percent off during your first three months at ritual
Speaker 5: dot com slash murder.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 5: Burrell we in every author's career, especially in true crime,
Speaker 5: an author has the opportunity, we won't say misfortune, but
Speaker 5: the opportunity to experience a serial killer. In body count
Speaker 5: in Spokane, Washington, first thirteen but fifteen women murdered, and
Speaker 5: Robert more than probably yes, Robert many.
Speaker 3: Twenty five or thirty altogether. If you take other countries
Speaker 3: into account.
Speaker 5: Yeah, this was a respected father of five and a
Speaker 5: helicopter pilot who served in Desert Storm. So this was
Speaker 5: a complete surprise. But this is the psychopath, the serial
Speaker 5: killer that Robert Lee Jates Yates Junior was, And your
Speaker 5: incredible story Body Count, the book about Robert Lee Yates.
Speaker 3: J Yeah, that was a book. I'll tell you that.
Speaker 3: You know the process of writing these. You've you've written
Speaker 3: one of my favorite and most deserving truth life books.
Speaker 3: You know the show We Dance Murderers Trophy Kill. You're
Speaker 3: familiar with that, and you know what it's like to
Speaker 3: write a book. And it's not easy. You may get
Speaker 3: it wrapped up at it, but each one has its
Speaker 3: own emotional personality. When you're writing it, it's never the same.
Speaker 3: It's everyone is his own gauntlet that you got to run,
Speaker 3: you know. Uh, And sometimes it's it's difficult as well.
Speaker 3: I mean, I remember when Mike Taylor Hamilton, the chief
Speaker 3: executive editor of Kensington and Pinnacle True Crime, called me
Speaker 3: up when I was writing the one was Rond the
Speaker 3: Glover Fatal Beauty. Yeah, and I was having a horrible
Speaker 3: time with that one. I thought that was going to
Speaker 3: be the easiest one to write. It was the most difficult.
Speaker 3: And she said, you're drowning in this manuscript dunchet. I said,
Speaker 3: I sure am, she says, and she told me what
Speaker 3: the mistake was, what I had done wrong. I had
Speaker 3: read the reviews on Amazon or my other books. She
Speaker 3: always warned me not to do that, says, don't read
Speaker 3: the reviews. And I read the reviews because you always
Speaker 3: remember the bad ones. And the bad ones the ones
Speaker 3: that don't like my books are the ones that I
Speaker 3: don't know why they buy them. They don't like them,
Speaker 3: But are the ones that don't like trials. They don't
Speaker 3: like the legal process. And the only say that stupid thing, Oh,
Speaker 3: he just put in a bunch of trial transcripts, which
Speaker 3: no author does that. It just shows up ignorant they are.
Speaker 3: As One of the hardest things for true come mother
Speaker 3: to do is to take something from a trial transcript
Speaker 3: and modify it and use it. And structurists who can
Speaker 3: actually be used in the book. There's no such thing
Speaker 3: as as taking til transcripts and putting you in the
Speaker 3: book for filler. No, it kisses me off when they
Speaker 3: say that anyway. So I was purposely avoiding anything they
Speaker 3: had to do with the legal procedures because I had
Speaker 3: so many complaints on people who don't like my books
Speaker 3: about that. She said, there's a piece of advice. Remember this.
Speaker 3: You write books for people who like your books, not
Speaker 3: those who don't. Duh yea. I went, oh, okay, I'll
Speaker 3: write it for people who like my books, and that
Speaker 3: helped with BodyCount. There was no legal stuff. Everything was sealed,
Speaker 3: everything was no The only legal stuff was the the
Speaker 3: disagreements or the ripoff between Spokane or Stephens County I
Speaker 3: guess and Pierce County is they had a deal. There
Speaker 3: were originally then taking the death penalty off the table
Speaker 3: if he would reveal where the bodies were buried, this
Speaker 3: sort of thing, and then Pierce County pulled out of
Speaker 3: the deal and sentenced him to death. But the judge
Speaker 3: Rightley rule, he had already been sentenced to five hundred
Speaker 3: and some years in prison, so after he served the
Speaker 3: five hundred some years, then you can kill him. So
Speaker 3: that worked out well. He is a model prisoner because
Speaker 3: he was very good in the military, so they never
Speaker 3: have any problems with him. The model prisoner is just fine.
Speaker 3: And you know, I did an update on that book
Speaker 3: for the addition you mentioned doing with the stanzy cover,
Speaker 3: kind of a purple cover with a girl standing by
Speaker 3: a river or something. Uh, that's the updated edition. Oh
Speaker 3: there is an updated e book addition too. But the
Speaker 3: uh they thought originally and they had these giant billboards
Speaker 3: of his victims. Well turns out the first three or
Speaker 3: four people on that billboard weren't his victims at all.
Speaker 3: They were the victims of another serial killer, the called
Speaker 3: the Riverside killer, and their the old method by which
Speaker 3: they were killed and all the bodies were dumped and
Speaker 3: all that stuff, which was entirely different than Robert Lee Yates.
Speaker 3: They finally we've caught the suspect. There's a DNA improved
Speaker 3: and the DNA testing improved to discover they already had
Speaker 3: that person in a custody on a weapons violation, except
Speaker 3: it was a woman who used to be a guy.
Speaker 3: The guy had gone Taiwan and the Philippines and some place,
Speaker 3: had gender reassignment surgery and came back to Spokane as
Speaker 3: a woman. And it not killed anybody. Since I think
Speaker 3: the defense used what I didn't do what he did.
Speaker 3: We just happened to have the same body. I guess
Speaker 3: that was kind of strange, but I knew some of
Speaker 3: the victims of his Pokane serial killer. My daughter went
Speaker 3: to school with his kids. We lived in the same
Speaker 3: town more than once, and we both lived in Walla Walla, Washington.
Speaker 3: The batter living college place with the suburb. Worked at
Speaker 3: the prison. Interesting in the illustrations, he worked at Washington
Speaker 3: State Penitentiary as a corrections officer. And they take the
Speaker 3: pictures of the employees the same place to take the
Speaker 3: pictures of the prisoners. And so you see his picture,
Speaker 3: don't say you know Robert le Yates corrections officer. Next
Speaker 3: to that, I put the picture of Robert Lee Yate's prisoner.
Speaker 3: He used to be a corrections officer the penitentiary. Now
Speaker 3: he's a prisoner.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he moved out of town. The first people he
Speaker 3: murdered were friends of my family. Wow. And they were
Speaker 3: very cooperative in the doing the book the Olivers and
Speaker 3: uh and then I knew, uh Marla who he murdered,
Speaker 3: and Darling this sister is Marlon and Darla Darla is
Speaker 3: the one that was murdered. Met her several times with
Speaker 3: my friend Arthur, and uh, that was just it was
Speaker 3: all too strange, and he was. I mean, no one
Speaker 3: would ever suspect Robert Lee Yates to being a serial killer.
Speaker 3: And that's the thing, is the only time I've ever
Speaker 3: heard of people going, oh, that guy's a serial killer
Speaker 3: was my daughter and her friend was standing in line
Speaker 3: to see interview with a vampire. And the standing in
Speaker 3: line and the guy behind him was the Green Killer,
Speaker 3: and they're going, dude, guy's creepy, but he's a greed
Speaker 3: River killer.
Speaker 1: They were right, Hello, it is Ryan. And I was
Speaker 1: on a flight the other day playing one of my
Speaker 1: favorite social spin slot games on chumbacasino dot com. I
Speaker 1: looked over at the person sitting next to me, and
Speaker 1: you know what they were doing. They were also playing
Speaker 1: Chumpa Casino. Coincidence, I think not everybody's loving having fun
Speaker 1: with it. Chumba Casino's home to hundreds oft casino style
Speaker 1: games that you can play for free, anytime, anywhere, even
Speaker 1: at thirty thousand feet. So sign up now at Chumbuck
Speaker 1: Casino dot com to claim you're free welcome bonus, that's
Speaker 1: Chumbuck Casino dot com and live the Chumba Lante No
Speaker 1: for necessary drood where if I lost the terms conditions
Speaker 1: eighteen plus. Hey guys, it is Ryan. I'm not sure
Speaker 1: if you know this about me, but I'm a bit
Speaker 1: of a fun fanatic when I can. I like to work,
Speaker 1: but I like fun too. It's a thing. And now
Speaker 1: the truth is out there, I can tell you about
Speaker 1: my favorite place to have fun, Chumbuck Casino. They have
Speaker 1: hundreds of social casino style games to choose from, with
Speaker 1: new games released each week. You can play for free anytime, anywhere,
Speaker 1: and each day brings a new chance to collect daily bonuses.
Speaker 1: So join me and the fun. Sign up now at
Speaker 1: chumba casino dot com.
Speaker 7: Noor necessary. I lost the terms conditions eighteen plus.
Speaker 3: Wow, but usually you don't get that. You know, it's
Speaker 3: like the last person you'd ever think of. And that
Speaker 3: was the case with him.
Speaker 5: You hooked up and with Frank Girardo Frank z Girardo Junior.
Speaker 5: Tell us a little bit about this collaboration, this co
Speaker 5: authoring and a taste for murder.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, it was great fun. I don't mean the
Speaker 3: case is great fun because a guy winds up being dead.
Speaker 3: But working with Frank, people ask how does that process work?
Speaker 3: Especially on Betrayal and Blue where it was three of us,
Speaker 3: Kenyrell and Frank and myself. Uh, well, here's here's the
Speaker 3: here's the real, untold story. I used to live in
Speaker 3: the Pacific Northwest, and I had lots of contacts up there.
Speaker 3: If I wanted to know about this or that, I
Speaker 3: could always know where. I could go talk to this
Speaker 3: guy and the prosecute his office, and I could talk
Speaker 3: to this cop. And you know, because I lived there.
Speaker 3: And so I was like, you know, homeboy. When I
Speaker 3: came down in the southern California, I'm not in that
Speaker 3: position anymore. I didn't know anybody, and I don't have
Speaker 3: those contacts and go to those relationships. But I'd had
Speaker 3: this uh, uh friend Gerardo on my show, uh, talking
Speaker 3: about his book about this the fake Rockefeller guy, and uh,
Speaker 3: because I was really impressed. Uh. The guy's a brilliant
Speaker 3: journalist who won lots of awards, a great personality and
Speaker 3: knows everybody because he's been here. I mean even I
Speaker 3: editor in the pasting to start news. You know, the
Speaker 3: guy's connected, and the guy knows that A right great writer,
Speaker 3: and so uh, it's time for me to write another
Speaker 3: book and going wow. I called them Frank and I
Speaker 3: said I I'm bro Beart. You remember, of course knew
Speaker 3: who I was, and so you want to do a book? Uh,
Speaker 3: he goes, yeah, sure so uh so we we did
Speaker 3: start doing some stuff together. And uh even some of
Speaker 3: the stuff we did which isn't necessarily very good, like
Speaker 3: the short, little, quick and dirties we did. Uh uh,
Speaker 3: this is really gonna upset somebody. We did a quick
Speaker 3: and dirty little booklet on the uh main wing of
Speaker 3: Williams murder, where she murders her husband and her and
Speaker 3: her kids. She chops him up with a samurai swords
Speaker 3: and sat down and wrote him a suicide note. No,
Speaker 3: we's gonna buy that. Uh you know what's start of
Speaker 3: following focus. It's real short, you know, but he was
Speaker 3: one of the first people on the scene. He was
Speaker 3: on the scene before the cops were. Frank was. So
Speaker 3: we wrote that up and we made more money and
Speaker 3: that say itself for like a buck, right, because it's
Speaker 3: a little booklet. We made more money off of that
Speaker 3: than any other in an entire year than we did
Speaker 3: have any other true crime book in my catalog. It
Speaker 3: doesn't have that good reviews, you know. I mean, that's
Speaker 3: some good reviews, but that's where we made our money.
Speaker 3: Very strange, but because it was on uh, Deadly Sins, Yeah,
Speaker 3: Manly Williams, Deadly Sins, and which I was on, you know,
Speaker 3: with Darren Cavanoak, one of our friends, a great guy.
Speaker 3: Originally that was going to be a book that Darren
Speaker 3: and I were going to do, and it didn't go
Speaker 3: through go through as a book, so he turned into
Speaker 3: a TV series and it's been nice enough to have
Speaker 3: me on every a couple of times every year. But
Speaker 3: so I got old the Frank and he found that
Speaker 3: case that we did for a Taste for a Taste
Speaker 3: for Murder, and he had all the contacts and everything,
Speaker 3: and the way he explains how we worked, I thought
Speaker 3: it was pretty clever. We did an event at the
Speaker 3: Pasadena Library and a lot of people showed up and
Speaker 3: he sold some books and he answered all sorts of
Speaker 3: questions and he says, you know, he's also a musician,
Speaker 3: plays guitar. He says, it's like being in a band.
Speaker 3: He says that do an album. He says, he goes
Speaker 3: in like he's the rhythm section. He lays down the
Speaker 3: bass and drums, and then I come in and I
Speaker 3: do lead guitar right, And I mean we've done two
Speaker 3: full length books together and we've never written in the
Speaker 3: same room. We've never been in the same place at
Speaker 3: the same time. I'll write what I write and send
Speaker 3: it to him and he'll make a couple of notes suggestions,
Speaker 3: send it back and they'll do the same. We just
Speaker 3: go back and forth with not sitting right together. We
Speaker 3: just kind of he writes his stuff, I write mine,
Speaker 3: and why he is he's mine. I make a couple
Speaker 3: of notes, he makes a couple of notes, and that's
Speaker 3: how we do it.
Speaker 5: Well, it makes people take collaboration.
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, it works real well. You know, uh after
Speaker 3: he doesn't have to sit here and watch me pretend
Speaker 3: to type, and I don't have to watch him pretend
Speaker 3: to type. And you know, we read it when he's
Speaker 3: got it, and hopefully he'll polish mine up and I'll
Speaker 3: polish his up. And what works not just fine. Plus
Speaker 3: we made a decision that I thought was smart thing
Speaker 3: to do. You know, when I was with Tensington Figure
Speaker 3: and I said, when I first had man over, there
Speaker 3: was lots of rules to true crime. One of them
Speaker 3: is he had to come into one hundred thousand words
Speaker 3: if the story only took sixty two thousand to tell.
Speaker 3: It just makes any difference you still hat to cover
Speaker 3: over with one hundred thousand words. Also, he had to
Speaker 3: stick to the facts. He could could yac yack at
Speaker 3: the audience. You know, you couldn't have had to be
Speaker 3: just like Joe Friday. Just the facts, ma'am. Yeah, Well,
Speaker 3: we decided listen, if we were sitting with our friends,
Speaker 3: if we were sitting with Dan Zebanski, and we're gonna
Speaker 3: tell Dana's story, you know, whether he's leading him back
Speaker 3: in a chair, sits on the edge of his seat.
Speaker 3: He likes hearing true crime stories, and we're gonna tell
Speaker 3: him one, and we're gonna tell him one to have
Speaker 3: him entertained and amused and aggravated and everything else. But
Speaker 3: we're gonna tell it the way we tell it. Someone
Speaker 3: else may tell it differently, but it is the way
Speaker 3: we tell it, and we just assume he's gonna like
Speaker 3: it because he likes stories and we like telling stories.
Speaker 3: And that's how we approached it. And you know, of
Speaker 3: all the compliments we got on the book, that's the
Speaker 3: biggest compliment we got the way it's written, the style,
Speaker 3: because we wrote it just as if we were sitting
Speaker 3: here with you telling you the story. Yeah, and people
Speaker 3: appreciated that, and we work absolutely that is one more
Speaker 3: word than it took to tell the story. We just
Speaker 3: got to tell the story the way we tell the story,
Speaker 3: and that's it, and that's exactly.
Speaker 5: What we do. Well, your books too, they do explore things.
Speaker 5: And there are other authors that talk about this, but
Speaker 5: they are rare. But people an author says, there has
Speaker 5: to be more to this story. Again the facts certainly,
Speaker 5: and again it's not an editorial excuse or reason just
Speaker 5: to editorialize, but there obviously is something to be right
Speaker 5: from each one of these stories.
Speaker 3: Well, Jack only and that any true crime book that
Speaker 3: doesn't get into the house or you're going to go,
Speaker 3: why and what can we do about it? Is pornography.
Speaker 3: And pornography doesn't mean sexual. Pornography means appealing to the
Speaker 3: lowest bases, common denominator here and so in every one
Speaker 3: of my books. But he says, we've been overboard, and
Speaker 3: it was kind of pretty obvious. Uh. There as the
Speaker 3: author's commentary at the end where we delve into the
Speaker 3: how do how do we deal with this? How do
Speaker 3: we resolve these problems. How do you know, UH, what
Speaker 3: is the why and the where for of this?
Speaker 5: You know?
Speaker 3: What can we do about it? You know? And based
Speaker 3: on the research, whether astonishing things about uh, A taste
Speaker 3: for murder was the story of the woman who did
Speaker 3: the murder of her life until you know again once
Speaker 3: again it was an incest. Uh. And her sister had
Speaker 3: said to me, you know, Grandpa was having sex with
Speaker 3: all of us, but he stopped with the rest of
Speaker 3: us about the time he usually stopped that sort of thing. Well,
Speaker 3: I was shocked to hear that. I didn't know there
Speaker 3: was a time you usually stop having sex with your grandkids.
Speaker 3: I didn't know there was a time when you started.
Speaker 3: I mean, that just blew my mind. But I went
Speaker 3: and looked it up. You know, I had to do
Speaker 3: all scholarly research on multigenerational incests. And yes, there is
Speaker 3: a typical time that it starts, at a typical time
Speaker 3: that it ends. If you're going to do it three years.
Speaker 3: After three years of having sex with your grandkids, you
Speaker 3: usually stop and go on to a new grand kids.
Speaker 3: But Grandpa didn't stop with her. Grandpa kept it up
Speaker 3: all the way until she was eighteen and she had
Speaker 3: two abortions from being pregnant with Grandpa's kids when she
Speaker 3: was in high school. So there you go. But we
Speaker 3: had to do a lot of research and some of
Speaker 3: the research and you learn things when you do research
Speaker 3: like this that when you learn it seems so obvious
Speaker 3: you wonder why didn't that ever cross my mind before.
Speaker 3: For example, if a kid, a little kid sexually molested,
Speaker 3: you feel real sorry for him. Say the kids sexually molests,
Speaker 3: he's thirteen, fourteen, fifteen or she or he either won,
Speaker 3: but once in about sixteen seventy, you know, she self
Speaker 3: feels self feeling sorry for him. And the real problem
Speaker 3: is is that sex feels good, which means psychologically or
Speaker 3: mentally maybe going no no, no no, but your body's
Speaker 3: going yes, yes, yes yes. And one of the biggest
Speaker 3: problems the victims of sexual abuse face is that as
Speaker 3: bad as it was, they enjoyed it physically, and the
Speaker 3: guilt and shame that they have for feeling what is
Speaker 3: perfectly natural to feel in a physical SA situation is
Speaker 3: horrifying and really screws them up. That's why there are
Speaker 3: only and I know you got we got total the
Speaker 3: time left. Tell me there are two responses to to
Speaker 3: be a sexual violation or brother sister incests, or father
Speaker 3: daughter and sister, grandfather child incests. Either you become as
Speaker 3: cold as winter and anchorage and sexless, or you become
Speaker 3: what appears to be incredibly promiscuous and have just tons
Speaker 3: of sex for those sorts of people. I think, well,
Speaker 3: what that sounds strange? Why would that be? Didn't occur
Speaker 3: to me either until I read the research. It's very simple.
Speaker 3: And I talked to this one woman who she had
Speaker 3: everybody in her family was poking the poor girl, her father,
Speaker 3: her uncle's, her cousins, everybody. She says. Being a sex worker,
Speaker 3: she says, she gets to decide who does what, nobody else.
Speaker 3: She's the one who says yes or no, nobody else.
Speaker 3: She is in control of her body, her sexual life,
Speaker 3: not anybody else, so that every time she says yes,
Speaker 3: it's her decision, not somebody else's, and it's her reclaiming
Speaker 3: of her own body and her own sexuality, not being
Speaker 3: controlled by somebody else. That had occurred to me, you know,
Speaker 3: maybe it occurs to everybody else. That had can cross
Speaker 3: my mind. But all the research says, yep, that's what
Speaker 3: that's about. And there's no middle ground. It's like, if
Speaker 3: you're a victim of racial or religious prejudice, or if
Speaker 3: people pick on you for being Canadian, only h only
Speaker 3: two possible responses. Either you're going to become just like
Speaker 3: the people who pick on you, be just as prejudice
Speaker 3: against others, or you're going to be a champion of
Speaker 3: acceptance and inclusion. No middle ground, and there's no if
Speaker 3: you know, either you're going to be just as prejudice
Speaker 3: as they were, or you're going to be a champion
Speaker 3: of inclusion. And that's the way it is. And you know,
Speaker 3: for some reason, my brain just clicked into the channel
Speaker 3: of how important it is in any country in Canada,
Speaker 3: the United States, any country in terms of its civilization
Speaker 3: and functionality, functionality to have a well informed population, a
Speaker 3: well educated, well informed population, and a well informed electric.
Speaker 3: One of the great tools to destroy a civilization or
Speaker 3: to manipulate is to have an ill informed or misinformed
Speaker 3: or uninformed population, what they call the low information voter.
Speaker 3: The people are ignorant, they'll just fall for just about anything.
Speaker 3: And there's always been kind of a general plan in
Speaker 3: the United States, which I found rather shocking considering down here.
Speaker 3: It was always said it was the taper ships on
Speaker 3: the backbone of America. Is a well informed electorate is
Speaker 3: the backbone of a democracy. Well, a lot of effort
Speaker 3: have been put into not having a well informed electorate.
Speaker 3: Because they're well informed, You've got some real problems. They're
Speaker 3: going to see right through your bs. You know, Now,
Speaker 3: what do you do? Uh So, a lot of the
Speaker 3: mocking of the well educated, all those ivory tailer intellectuals, although,
Speaker 3: you know, putting down the well educated, mocking them. I
Speaker 3: can remember we had a guy running from president back
Speaker 3: in the United States years ago, Headlight Stevenson. I was
Speaker 3: a kid at the time, but I remember what people
Speaker 3: complained about him was he was too smart, he was
Speaker 3: too well educated. Yeah, yeah, a kind falls into the
Speaker 3: same category here with you know, I'm glad people are
Speaker 3: still learning to read so they can buy our books.
Speaker 5: Absolutely. You know, Betrayal in Blue, which was released in
Speaker 5: twenty sixteen, the shocking memoir of the scandal that rocked
Speaker 5: the NYPD in the story of cops Dowd and Kenny Murrel.
Speaker 5: You worked with Frank Girardo and this Kenny Urrel, this
Speaker 5: bad cop from the seventy fifth Precinct, This is an
Speaker 5: incredible collaboration between you. But it also demonstrates the ability
Speaker 5: for you to get a journalist and author of Frank
Speaker 5: Girardo's stature to co author, but also to be able
Speaker 5: to get And I think this is an important part
Speaker 5: of all the books that you have, is that the
Speaker 5: respect you have as a journalist, and this is evident
Speaker 5: when you get to talk to this Kenny Urrel and
Speaker 5: he gives you the information. It's on Netflix. But the
Speaker 5: book that you have, Betrayal in Blue, really gets to
Speaker 5: the character of this Kenny Urrel and to tell the
Speaker 5: truth about the NYPD. I think this is where you,
Speaker 5: with True Crime Uncensored, had stuff that nobody else had,
Speaker 5: stuff like this bad cops finally opening their mouth and
Speaker 5: telling the truth. This is a powerful book, Betrayal and Blue,
Speaker 5: but it also again indicates and demonstrates the ability for
Speaker 5: you to have that respect for people to say, yes,
Speaker 5: I will tell burrobar I will let.
Speaker 3: Work a strange thing and it is true. And now,
Speaker 3: in fact, I have a letter from a retired Secret
Speaker 3: Service agent, Lyle Workman, like a letter of recommendation. And
Speaker 3: in that letter, which was written about probably twenty years ago,
Speaker 3: he says, for some reason, people will talk to Burro
Speaker 3: Bear and they will tell him openly, tell him things
Speaker 3: they will not share with anybody else. They won't share
Speaker 3: with the reporters, they won't shall with the attorneys. But
Speaker 3: for some reason they will tell Burrol Beert, and thank
Speaker 3: god they do. And there's some other people that would
Speaker 3: have the same thing. Susan Murphy Milano had the same
Speaker 3: and it was blessed with the same gift. People would
Speaker 3: talk to her. I don't know why it is, but
Speaker 3: I'm happy about it.
Speaker 5: Well, you have a background that really is not of
Speaker 5: you know, you have a background as an elite. You
Speaker 5: didn't spend all your time in school. You were. You
Speaker 5: have a background in radio and sales and marketing in music,
Speaker 5: so you obviously were. By the time that you were
Speaker 5: writing True Crime, you had already established the ways to
Speaker 5: communicate with people and all kinds of people, which was
Speaker 5: the real benefit later on.
Speaker 3: That's true, as I often joke about it as if
Speaker 3: it were for having a double life, i'd have no
Speaker 3: life at all. And and Parboy I live with here.
Speaker 3: She always mositors. I don't want to meet any more
Speaker 3: of your friends. She meets some of these people that
Speaker 3: I know is that terrified were shocked by you know,
Speaker 3: because I know people from all social strata. Some of
Speaker 3: them I wouldn't bring home. Some of them I would
Speaker 3: gladly bring home. Oh and some of me bring home
Speaker 3: as the culture shock. But I could transition between all
Speaker 3: levels levels of not all, but say most levels of
Speaker 3: American culture very fairly easily. Although I may appear out
Speaker 3: of place. I can tell you a strange story. I
Speaker 3: wound up one night in a particular location of people
Speaker 3: that you would not necessarily feel are percent comfortable around,
Speaker 3: and the TV was on and it was who Wants
Speaker 3: to Be a Millionaire? And I'm watching that while there's
Speaker 3: other things going on in the house, and there's other
Speaker 3: woman say she's gonna watched it too, And it just
Speaker 3: happened to be by sheer coincidence. I happen to know
Speaker 3: they answered every question they asked, and so they're going
Speaker 3: on and I go, D, C, A, whatever, while there's
Speaker 3: other bizarre crinal behaviors aating place. And we get all
Speaker 3: done and anyone lady looks at me, he says, what
Speaker 3: the hell are you doing here? Any One who could
Speaker 3: add just what have you been sitting that, sure, you'd
Speaker 3: be a millionaire. Now what the hell are you doing
Speaker 3: sitting in this room for criminals? And I said, that's
Speaker 3: a good question. I can't really tell you, but I
Speaker 3: mean I was perfectly comfortable. I hadn't been so willing
Speaker 3: to play the game that was on TV, they probably
Speaker 3: wouldn't have been so suspicious of me like I had
Speaker 3: Lie Stevens in the room.
Speaker 5: Your books are imbued with your personality. But also what's important,
Speaker 5: I think for the listener to understand is that if
Speaker 5: your books didn't have this tone, the tone of that
Speaker 5: law enforcement would approve of. You're on the right side
Speaker 5: of the law despite your understanding and comprehension of criminals.
Speaker 5: Like we mentioned, you understand when somebody is insane rather
Speaker 5: than psychopathic killer. Regardless of what the court has determined
Speaker 5: and the prosecution wants to put forward at a trial,
Speaker 5: well you'll preservative books.
Speaker 3: I mean, a good law enforcement officer, if they're going
Speaker 3: to catch the bad guys, they're not going to be
Speaker 3: able to do unless they can think like a criminal.
Speaker 3: And that is one of the first things I noticed
Speaker 3: that people who do not understand how criminals think make
Speaker 3: all sorts of assumptions that are just absurd. It's like
Speaker 3: listen to conservatives and liberals talk about each other and
Speaker 3: neither one knows what they're talking about, making all sorts
Speaker 3: of assumptions that just to the product of someone's bizarre
Speaker 3: imagination or assumptions. Know, that's not how those people think. No,
Speaker 3: that's not what they're up to, you know. But I
Speaker 3: can think like a criminal real easy. It's not difficult
Speaker 3: for me to have a criminal mind, and I'm not
Speaker 3: out to catch anybody, and I could keep a seat
Speaker 3: good as well as the next criminal. Oh and I
Speaker 3: guess what reason people though they're safe with me unless
Speaker 3: it's murder or child molesting. You know, that's a different story.
Speaker 3: And people have visually got the brains have to tell me.
Speaker 3: If they've killed somebody, there's no station limitations on that.
Speaker 3: But anything else I'll tell people right up front. Hey,
Speaker 3: long as we're talking about anything from seven years ago
Speaker 3: and beyond, long as it's not murder, you could tell
Speaker 3: me anything. You know, you don't have to worry about anything.
Speaker 3: I'm talking about.
Speaker 5: The true I'm talking about the tone from law enforcement itself, though,
Speaker 5: in that you have the respect from law enforcement that
Speaker 5: you're not going to put out something that's irresponsible factually whatsoever.
Speaker 5: And you also have this reputation of having the tone
Speaker 5: to be on the right side of the fence here,
Speaker 5: not having undo again just presenting the facts, but your opinion.
Speaker 5: The end result of your books, the tone is appreciated
Speaker 5: by law enforcement.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that is a challenge. And on the Robert Lee Yates.
Speaker 3: When I went to Spokane, I was preceded there by
Speaker 3: what's his name. He wrote a book about the same case,
Speaker 3: the guy from the OJ trial, Furman Mark Furman, and
Speaker 3: he had pissed the cops out there so bad that
Speaker 3: when I showed up, they already didn't like me because
Speaker 3: he had written the true crime book and it was
Speaker 3: so wrong, so filled with errors and just absurd mistakes,
Speaker 3: and I mean, it's just beyond the beyond. And they
Speaker 3: were afraid that I'd be just as inaccurate, just as
Speaker 3: ridiculous and offensive to them as he was. Fortunately I wasn't,
Speaker 3: but they really put me through the ringer on that book.
Speaker 3: I mean, it took me almost like a year. A
Speaker 3: year I have to get the pictures, which aren't that
Speaker 3: good anyway, from them when they had them sitting on
Speaker 3: the desk, but they wouldn't give them to me because
Speaker 3: made me wait. You know, there's also little games that
Speaker 3: went on. But I do got to compliment the guys
Speaker 3: that helped me out on that because they were great.
Speaker 3: The homicide task Force wasn't easy, but they were so
Speaker 3: mad at Furman for what he's the way. You know,
Speaker 3: he had a radio show and he talked about him
Speaker 3: like the reason he wrote his entire book was to
Speaker 3: show that he knew more than they did. But just
Speaker 3: as the book was about to come out, they caught
Speaker 3: the killer. And then he calls them up and goes, oh,
Speaker 3: tell me how you did it, and he said totally
Speaker 3: a trick he could do in a half number rope.
Speaker 3: They wouldn't tell him anything. Then I showed up and
Speaker 3: had to convince him that I wasn't him. So that
Speaker 3: can be a problem if you get the police bat
Speaker 3: at you. Absolutely.
Speaker 5: Now these books you were published with from Pinnacle and
Speaker 5: now with Wild Blue Press as of late, both very
Speaker 5: very fine publishers that that specialize, I think in the
Speaker 5: real true crime author and the dedicated sophisticated true crime reader.
Speaker 5: Can you tell us a little bit about the process
Speaker 5: with I know with Kensington Press, how much they were
Speaker 5: involved in helping these books get to the end result
Speaker 5: that they were. As I mentioned, now true crime classics.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, you don't know it's going to be a
Speaker 3: true crime classic until enough time goes by. Stay with films,
Speaker 3: you don't know what's going to be a classic film
Speaker 3: until years later. And say, how did I become my
Speaker 3: pre eminent position of the true crime world? And simply
Speaker 3: by staying alive and reaching this age and we're writing
Speaker 3: enough books. Kevin Haws, who have must compliments, I'm tired now.
Speaker 5: She was.
Speaker 3: I've had good editors. She is, beyond a doubt, the
Speaker 3: best editor I've ever had in the publishing world. I
Speaker 3: cannot say enough wonderful things about it. We had like
Speaker 3: a vulcan mind meld. I was right all night until
Speaker 3: six thirty in the morning. We would be nine thirty
Speaker 3: New York Times. Then I would call her and tell
Speaker 3: her what I'd worked on and send it to her.
Speaker 3: And it was just like for like psychic connection. We
Speaker 3: could just tell what We're on the same page. Literally.
Speaker 3: It was fantastic to work with her, and the process
Speaker 3: of picking a case to do, I just said to her,
Speaker 3: I'd say, here are four different cases i'd like to do.
Speaker 3: Pick the one you want, and then she'd say, okay,
Speaker 3: how about this one. What was funny is I'd get
Speaker 3: the either of her. Michael Hamilton sent me the message
Speaker 3: one time that said, you did a lot of books
Speaker 3: about blue collar criminals. But the market has changed. Things
Speaker 3: have gotten bad, the economy has gone to hell. So
Speaker 3: people want to read books about rich people with a
Speaker 3: lot of drugs who do stupid stuff. So that's why
Speaker 3: we did Fatal Beauty. So see if you can find
Speaker 3: some good look at people with a lot of money
Speaker 3: and a lot of drugs and a lot of sex,
Speaker 3: and preferably a wood shipper. Well I never find the woodschipper.
Speaker 3: But you know, there's market research. Like there's a difference
Speaker 3: between a magazine and the newspaper USA today, which looks
Speaker 3: like a newspaper, it's not a newspaper, have you ever
Speaker 3: seen it? In reality, it's a magazine because the magazine
Speaker 3: they find out what you want to read and then
Speaker 3: they print it. Newspaper just prints whatever the news is.
Speaker 3: Magazines print what you want to read, and same thing
Speaker 3: research instead of what kind of true with clime books
Speaker 3: you want to read With the economy is good, you
Speaker 3: want to read about people who are lower economically life,
Speaker 3: those low lives, they're just scumbags. When the economy is
Speaker 3: bad and you're not one of those low lives, you
Speaker 3: want to read about rich people who were bad. It's
Speaker 3: pretty simple to figure out. Everyone's always looking for someone
Speaker 3: to be better than you know, like I said on
Speaker 3: the news, there's always a little clip of someone who
Speaker 3: can feel better then, because your lives better than theirs,
Speaker 3: you know, as part of this whole sales strategy, you know,
Speaker 3: meeting that need of feeling better than somebody else. I
Speaker 3: don't don't need that myself. I just want to feel
Speaker 3: better than me, But you go ahead.
Speaker 5: I very much like other literary forms, other magazines, books,
Speaker 5: things have gone through eras of more popularity just because
Speaker 5: of the nature of the criminals and the crimes. And
Speaker 5: I guess better crime solving then people. You know, serial
Speaker 5: killers running around for fifteen or twenty years unsolved, so
Speaker 5: we know the history of America and where the police
Speaker 5: caught up. I guess to some of these people, this
Speaker 5: is what would be now I guess considered true crime classics.
Speaker 5: But also because of the crimes themselves, and the criminals.
Speaker 5: You know, not to go anicize or anything, but very
Speaker 5: unique in terms of now when we have the spree killer,
Speaker 5: we have the one off killer. We have the people
Speaker 5: that are in a big rush to get famous, not
Speaker 5: these other people that were so steady.
Speaker 3: Yeah, hey can I I'll top this guy's head off
Speaker 3: and says with the eyeballs you can write a book,
Speaker 3: I'll be famous. But I mean, who thought of that? Well,
Speaker 3: we know who thought of that, But I mean, it's
Speaker 3: just that just amazed me that kind of stuff went down.
Speaker 5: It's really Yeah, it's a really amazing, Burl that you
Speaker 5: were in the right position at the very very right time,
Speaker 5: with all the right intentions and all the skills, and
Speaker 5: you put together this collection nine truly important truth Well.
Speaker 3: We got another one coming. I got some more coming.
Speaker 3: I'm not done yet. I got one coming out real soon.
Speaker 3: That's said by yours Hansen truly called as a three
Speaker 3: volume set American Panther. The very first one is called
Speaker 3: Stealing Manhattan, and it's the never before told story of
Speaker 3: the greatest untold true crime story in American history, involving
Speaker 3: the biggest mega heightst over a billion dollars in diamonds, gyms,
Speaker 3: precious stones and cash stolen from the Diamond District of
Speaker 3: New York. And yes, they got away with it, and
Speaker 3: everyone was in on it, the security companies, the safe
Speaker 3: manufacturing companies, everybody, and the guy who planned it all
Speaker 3: got away with everything, never went to prison. He's retired
Speaker 3: or to the europe environment to go fishing with him.
Speaker 3: Incredible story and it's all true. Got that coming out,
Speaker 3: and that's gonna be three volumes out because the story
Speaker 3: is so incredible it takes three books to tell it.
Speaker 3: The East part is an adventure under itself, and then
Speaker 3: Frank and I have one that we're starting that will
Speaker 3: boil your mind you want to. I mean, the fact
Speaker 3: that this even took place is astonishing. You have members
Speaker 3: of the Russian mafia who are going to prison, sworn
Speaker 3: in as federal agents so they can arrest people to
Speaker 3: lower their prison time. And figure, g if we could
Speaker 3: arrest somebody for murder, that will really lower our prison time.
Speaker 3: And so the allegedly frame a retarded kid for murder
Speaker 3: to reduce their prison sentences.
Speaker 5: Wow, wow wow.
Speaker 3: And I got all the info on that, and in fact,
Speaker 3: we've already got some TV film interests in that. So
Speaker 3: it's a true story. And Frank and I are just
Speaker 3: about to start on that one. So we've got some
Speaker 3: more great stuff coming.
Speaker 5: We're not done yet, absolutely no, absolutely not. I'm not
Speaker 5: surprised at all. You're very prolific and and so is Frank,
Speaker 5: and so we will be looking forward collectively to Black
Speaker 5: Panther and American Panther.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Stealing Manhattan is the actual title of the first volume.
Speaker 3: Stealing Manhattan the title of the of the one Frank
Speaker 3: and I are doing, but we haven't go over the
Speaker 3: title yet. But usually titles when Kensington and Kensington would
Speaker 3: come up with the titles. The original title of Headshot
Speaker 3: was head in the Bucket. We didn't know what to
Speaker 3: call it the bucket.
Speaker 5: Yeah, the Glory Days, Pinnacle really had their finger on
Speaker 5: the pulse.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they want to do a lot of true crime. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I don't know they're still doing it.
Speaker 5: Well, there's less less authors anyway, certainly. Well, I want
Speaker 5: to thank you, Yeah, that is. I want to thank
Speaker 5: you so much for joining me for the Burrow Bear retrospective.
Speaker 5: It's been an absolute pleasure, even just touching on some
Speaker 5: of the stories that comprise the nine Again, classic true
Speaker 5: crime books. And as you say, more to come, I
Speaker 5: want to thank you very much Burl for coming home
Speaker 5: to talk. Thank yous for having me tell us a
Speaker 5: little bit about true crime on sensor just before I
Speaker 5: let you go.
Speaker 3: Okay. True Crime on Censored is live every Saturday two
Speaker 3: pm Pacific time on outlaur RadioLIVE dot com. And then
Speaker 3: you can listen to it on iTunes and Spotify in
Speaker 3: about thirteen other format where we're delivery systems. I use
Speaker 3: Spotify a lot. People use iTunes to listen to it.
Speaker 3: And if you find it irritating and aggravating and childish,
Speaker 3: that's okay. Uh. We have some really good guests like
Speaker 3: Dan's and Pants. He got Steven singular this week, so
Speaker 3: we're gonna have a good time. We're doing a career
Speaker 3: of retrospective on him, so we'll teach him a lesson
Speaker 3: him and his wife. Uh, thank you very much, Frank,
Speaker 3: have a good time. Thank you very much, brou good night,
Speaker 3: good night,