WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.880 --> 00:00:03.399 This is Matthew, host of the Superhero Ethics podcast, and 2 00:00:03.439 --> 00:00:06.040 I've got an ethical question for you. If I'm trying 3 00:00:06.080 --> 00:00:09.199 to help you not listen to ads, is it ethical 4 00:00:09.240 --> 00:00:11.359 for me to do an AD to help you do that? 5 00:00:11.720 --> 00:00:13.800 If you go to our website, the Ethical Pana dot 6 00:00:13.839 --> 00:00:16.440 com and just click on the join button. For five 7 00:00:16.440 --> 00:00:18.640 dollars a month fifty five dollars a year, you get 8 00:00:18.640 --> 00:00:21.480 to hear all of our episodes without ads. Was I 9 00:00:21.519 --> 00:00:33.159 ethical in doing this? Let me know? Hello, and welcome 10 00:00:33.159 --> 00:00:36.000 to this episode of Superhero Ethics. Today, myself, Matthew and 11 00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:38.479 my co host Riki are talking about the new Fantastic 12 00:00:38.560 --> 00:00:41.039 Four movie. If you've listened to our old stuff, you 13 00:00:41.039 --> 00:00:43.960 know this is a movie that Ricky was greatly anticipating. 14 00:00:44.000 --> 00:00:46.359 I was also anticipating, but from a very different perspective. 15 00:00:46.399 --> 00:00:49.359 Ricky is a huge Fantastic Four fan. I have had 16 00:00:49.520 --> 00:00:51.920 almost no contact with them, but have been curious about them. 17 00:00:52.399 --> 00:00:56.119 And now it's out, and as expected, there's some interesing 18 00:00:56.159 --> 00:00:59.079 ethical questions that it raises, and we're here to talk 19 00:00:59.119 --> 00:01:01.960 about them. And Riki let me kind of just start by. 20 00:01:02.039 --> 00:01:04.799 We're gonna get into the questions especially, but let you 21 00:01:04.879 --> 00:01:07.560 kind of start the framework of as someone who is 22 00:01:07.599 --> 00:01:11.120 a big Fantastic Four fan, as someone who's been frustrated 23 00:01:11.120 --> 00:01:13.599 by earlier depictions of the four, what do you think 24 00:01:13.640 --> 00:01:15.239 of this movie overall? 25 00:01:16.319 --> 00:01:19.200 I would say that this is a very good movie. 26 00:01:19.840 --> 00:01:24.879 It's a very good MCU movie, and it could I'll 27 00:01:25.000 --> 00:01:27.920 border on great. I don't know. I would have to 28 00:01:27.959 --> 00:01:30.719 rewatch it, maybe a second time or a third time 29 00:01:30.920 --> 00:01:33.959 to really like hone in on how I feel about it. 30 00:01:34.359 --> 00:01:39.400 I was very happy with it, satisfied with the product, 31 00:01:39.599 --> 00:01:44.480 but it came at such an interesting time, meaning on 32 00:01:44.519 --> 00:01:48.799 the heels of the dc reboot with Superman m H. 33 00:01:49.280 --> 00:01:52.560 And because of that, like it's impossible not to compare them, 34 00:01:52.840 --> 00:01:57.400 right because both movie franchises, both comic book movie franchises, 35 00:01:57.439 --> 00:02:01.040 are going through kind of a difficult period right with 36 00:02:00.840 --> 00:02:04.400 their audiences and trying to refocus, and I feel like 37 00:02:04.439 --> 00:02:08.199 Superman did that. It set an amazing new direction for 38 00:02:08.400 --> 00:02:13.719 DCU under James Gunn, And in that respect, Fantastic Four 39 00:02:13.759 --> 00:02:17.680 First Steps was a little disappointing. It felt like just 40 00:02:17.719 --> 00:02:22.319 another Marvel movie, and that again is like as a 41 00:02:22.360 --> 00:02:24.719 comic book movie is okay, it's it was good. It 42 00:02:24.759 --> 00:02:29.599 was enjoyable, fun to watch, but in this moment, I 43 00:02:29.719 --> 00:02:32.800 needed it to be more than just another Marvel movie, 44 00:02:32.879 --> 00:02:36.080 and for me, it wasn't. So that was a little disappointing. 45 00:02:37.520 --> 00:02:39.080 Yeah, I think that's a really good way to put it, 46 00:02:39.159 --> 00:02:42.120 I think, And this is a topic we're going to 47 00:02:42.120 --> 00:02:46.280 discussed further, possibly in a different episode. Is looking kind 48 00:02:46.280 --> 00:02:48.960 of where these where these franchises are, and how we 49 00:02:49.000 --> 00:02:52.199 feel about them, and what Superman did to me, this 50 00:02:52.319 --> 00:02:54.719 is better than I feel like we've been kind of 51 00:02:54.719 --> 00:02:57.080 in a low point of MCU products for a while, 52 00:02:57.360 --> 00:03:00.680 and this feels better to me. Yeah, like Thunderbolts, I 53 00:03:00.680 --> 00:03:02.759 think both of them were more solid entries than we've 54 00:03:02.800 --> 00:03:06.719 seen in quite a while. Absolutely, But I think for me, 55 00:03:11.159 --> 00:03:12.800 I think the best way to describe it is I 56 00:03:12.879 --> 00:03:16.919 left the movie feeling very excited about the characters of 57 00:03:16.960 --> 00:03:20.159 the Fantastic Four, feeling like I now had a clear 58 00:03:20.240 --> 00:03:23.400 understanding of these people who've been so interested, who have 59 00:03:23.439 --> 00:03:26.039 been so important to so many others, that I was 60 00:03:26.080 --> 00:03:28.599 invested in these characters, that I was really excited to 61 00:03:28.599 --> 00:03:32.159 see these characters and other Marvel properties. But I don't 62 00:03:32.199 --> 00:03:33.879 think I'm in a rush to watch this movie again. 63 00:03:35.000 --> 00:03:37.759 You know, because I feel like the movie itself, the 64 00:03:37.800 --> 00:03:41.599 main plot Galactus, left me very underwhelmed. As my partner 65 00:03:41.639 --> 00:03:44.520 in other podcasts, Pete Wright put it, this felt like 66 00:03:44.560 --> 00:03:47.039 a very good second movie when we didn't have the 67 00:03:47.080 --> 00:03:49.360 first movie, you know, and a lot of what I 68 00:03:49.439 --> 00:03:52.000 was kind of I didn't want the origin story. I 69 00:03:52.039 --> 00:03:54.560 was glad we didn't have that, but I wanted more. 70 00:03:54.680 --> 00:03:56.639 I would love to watch more of Moman. I would 71 00:03:56.680 --> 00:04:00.719 have wanted to watch more of what is the Final Four? Yeah, 72 00:04:00.800 --> 00:04:03.800 what is the Fantastic for his relationship to the world 73 00:04:04.599 --> 00:04:08.319 that then having this, you know what it like for 74 00:04:08.360 --> 00:04:11.159 the for the world to turn against the Fantastic Four 75 00:04:11.240 --> 00:04:13.039 didn't mean very much to me when I hadn't seen 76 00:04:13.080 --> 00:04:15.719 the world more solidly on their side for a long time. 77 00:04:16.360 --> 00:04:16.959 Things like that. 78 00:04:18.920 --> 00:04:21.879 Yeah, let me let me also go back and answer 79 00:04:22.519 --> 00:04:25.560 your the full question you asked. So as a fan 80 00:04:25.920 --> 00:04:31.560 of the Fantastic Four more in general, this was great. Yeah, 81 00:04:31.600 --> 00:04:34.920 and it was the best Fantastic for movie we've gotten, 82 00:04:34.959 --> 00:04:38.839 which is the lowest bar, just the lowest bar, but 83 00:04:38.920 --> 00:04:41.920 it cleared it, and it cleared it by a lot. 84 00:04:42.160 --> 00:04:45.879 I think it was a good movie, and it was 85 00:04:45.959 --> 00:04:50.160 a good depiction of the Fantastic Four and their dynamics 86 00:04:50.480 --> 00:04:54.040 as a family. You know, you've probably heard us talk 87 00:04:54.079 --> 00:04:57.639 about them. They are Marvel's first family. When they're introduced 88 00:04:57.639 --> 00:05:00.160 in nineteen sixty one, they set the course for or 89 00:05:00.759 --> 00:05:05.240 what Marvel Comics became, and they were the centerpiece of 90 00:05:05.920 --> 00:05:09.240 the whole franchise, and the fact that they were a 91 00:05:09.319 --> 00:05:14.480 family became integral to them. It wasn't as important in 92 00:05:14.480 --> 00:05:17.399 the beginning, they were just a team, but they became 93 00:05:17.519 --> 00:05:21.399 a family, right, and that again set the tone for 94 00:05:21.480 --> 00:05:24.720 so many other Marvel products to be more focused on 95 00:05:25.279 --> 00:05:29.319 the human elements while they're still doing ridiculous comic book 96 00:05:29.319 --> 00:05:31.240 superhero things right. 97 00:05:31.399 --> 00:05:33.959 Like I remember when the MCU first started, one of 98 00:05:33.959 --> 00:05:35.720 the things that was talked about a lot was that 99 00:05:35.839 --> 00:05:38.279 part of why it was able to be successful was 100 00:05:38.319 --> 00:05:41.120 it was about characters who a lot of the public 101 00:05:41.160 --> 00:05:43.360 didn't have much of a knowledge of or investment of. 102 00:05:44.120 --> 00:05:46.560 And that's because like the ones people thought that they 103 00:05:46.600 --> 00:05:49.079 did were Spider Man and the Fantastic Four, that these 104 00:05:49.079 --> 00:05:51.759 were all people who had long histories, and of course 105 00:05:51.800 --> 00:05:56.879 there had been devotees of Iron Man and Captain America 106 00:05:57.000 --> 00:05:59.399 and the Avengers and all that, but they were nothing 107 00:05:59.480 --> 00:06:01.879 as popular as Spider Man or the Fantastic Four. 108 00:06:02.639 --> 00:06:04.639 Yeah, and that's because of the way that the whole 109 00:06:04.879 --> 00:06:08.120 the rights to the characters have been divided up right, 110 00:06:08.240 --> 00:06:10.639 that Sony has the rights to Spider Man and so 111 00:06:10.759 --> 00:06:14.319 many of the characters from that part of Marvel Universe. 112 00:06:15.560 --> 00:06:18.959 What Fantastic Four was Fox along with the X Men. 113 00:06:19.720 --> 00:06:23.600 So when Marvel Studios first started, they had to make 114 00:06:23.680 --> 00:06:27.120 do with what were at the time considered B listers, 115 00:06:27.639 --> 00:06:31.439 right for many, even like comic book fans, right. 116 00:06:32.480 --> 00:06:34.480 And I will say, as someone who wasn't introduced to 117 00:06:34.560 --> 00:06:37.439 it but it heard you and Jessica and others talk 118 00:06:37.480 --> 00:06:39.839 about it, I felt like I came out this movie 119 00:06:39.920 --> 00:06:42.160 coming a very solid understanding of who all four of 120 00:06:42.199 --> 00:06:45.800 them were and a very an investment in wanting to 121 00:06:45.800 --> 00:06:47.480 see more of them. And I think part of that's 122 00:06:47.519 --> 00:06:50.000 because and here's a way in which I do think 123 00:06:50.040 --> 00:06:53.360 the movie was like Superman. It felt like this was 124 00:06:53.480 --> 00:06:56.439 a you know, we've been in the dark pathos of 125 00:06:56.480 --> 00:06:59.600 superheroes for a while, and I love that. I love 126 00:06:59.680 --> 00:07:04.120 that this wasn't that. And this had some moments of like, 127 00:07:05.000 --> 00:07:07.279 you know, oh my gosh, are we gonna lose? But 128 00:07:07.399 --> 00:07:09.480 it did feel like it was a much more fundamentally 129 00:07:09.560 --> 00:07:12.560 hopeful perspective than a lot of the MCU has banned 130 00:07:12.560 --> 00:07:15.519 than the Zach Snyder had been, And in that right regard, 131 00:07:15.560 --> 00:07:18.240 it felt like it was I think I agree with you, 132 00:07:18.319 --> 00:07:21.040 not quite on the level of Superman, but going in 133 00:07:21.040 --> 00:07:21.839 a similar direction. 134 00:07:24.160 --> 00:07:28.720 Yeah, a lot of people have started to talk about 135 00:07:28.920 --> 00:07:33.759 this month, the month of Superman and Fantastic Four is 136 00:07:34.279 --> 00:07:39.120 heralding the silver age of comic book movies. As I 137 00:07:39.199 --> 00:07:41.879 just mentioned that the Fantastic Four ushered in the Silver 138 00:07:41.920 --> 00:07:46.319 Age of comics like comic books, but this really feels 139 00:07:46.360 --> 00:07:50.319 like the industry changing direction. And of course, like two 140 00:07:50.319 --> 00:07:54.000 thousand and eight had Iron Man and the Dark Knight, 141 00:07:54.079 --> 00:07:56.920 and people now cite that as like the beginning of 142 00:07:56.959 --> 00:08:00.360 the golden age of comic book movie, comic book movie. 143 00:08:00.560 --> 00:08:03.680 So like, if you look at it, like in five 144 00:08:03.800 --> 00:08:06.079 to ten years, I do think like this will be 145 00:08:06.199 --> 00:08:09.439 seen as an important month, an important pair of movies 146 00:08:09.480 --> 00:08:13.120 in moving moving things in a different direction. And you're 147 00:08:13.160 --> 00:08:17.720 right like that it is. Both of these movies were brightly, 148 00:08:17.920 --> 00:08:22.920 brightly colored and lighted, and also had much more hopeful 149 00:08:23.120 --> 00:08:26.199 tones than a lot of the movies we've had. 150 00:08:26.360 --> 00:08:28.600 And this was something that we don't see very often 151 00:08:28.879 --> 00:08:32.120 in superhero movies. I don't say even especially Marvel movies. 152 00:08:32.759 --> 00:08:36.360 It was a movie about a superhero team where while 153 00:08:36.360 --> 00:08:39.679 there's conflict between them, there's never a danger of the 154 00:08:39.720 --> 00:08:42.440 team breaking up. You know, like think about how like 155 00:08:42.480 --> 00:08:45.200 almost every I think every Avengers movie hasn't sued to 156 00:08:45.240 --> 00:08:48.519 some degree involved people quitting the Avengers or saying that 157 00:08:48.600 --> 00:08:51.440 you know, they're dividing more than they literally have a 158 00:08:51.480 --> 00:08:53.960 civil war. But even in both Avengers one and two, 159 00:08:54.039 --> 00:08:56.240 they all go their separate ways and they come back together. 160 00:08:56.759 --> 00:08:59.360 In The Defenders, we never we we only really get 161 00:08:59.399 --> 00:09:02.639 all them together for the big fight. The Eternals is 162 00:09:02.720 --> 00:09:05.679 very much about like their you know, internal struggles with 163 00:09:05.720 --> 00:09:08.559 each other until they finally come back together. This one, 164 00:09:08.600 --> 00:09:12.480 they start as a team. They argue with each other some, 165 00:09:12.799 --> 00:09:14.639 but there's never a moment where it feels like any 166 00:09:14.679 --> 00:09:16.759 of them are going to leave the Final I want 167 00:09:16.799 --> 00:09:18.679 to keep on to the Final Four because I'm too 168 00:09:18.759 --> 00:09:23.679 much March Madness guy. The Fantastic Four and that alone 169 00:09:23.759 --> 00:09:25.679 felt like such a big deal and something I really 170 00:09:25.759 --> 00:09:29.240 appreciate it after being very frustrated that that movies. It 171 00:09:29.320 --> 00:09:31.240 felt really afraid to just let a team of heroes 172 00:09:31.279 --> 00:09:32.200 be a team of heroes. 173 00:09:34.159 --> 00:09:39.279 Yeah, And the marketing for this movie really highlighted that, 174 00:09:39.399 --> 00:09:44.480 like Sunday dinner, Yeah, was such a focus, and it 175 00:09:44.559 --> 00:09:49.200 opens with that. It opens with the family getting together 176 00:09:49.879 --> 00:09:55.039 for Sunday dinner after like the weird recap montage, right. 177 00:09:56.240 --> 00:09:58.639 I mean, even the concept of family itself is interesting 178 00:09:58.679 --> 00:10:02.879 because you know, the concept of found family, I think 179 00:10:02.960 --> 00:10:05.679 is often very big in a lot of superhero type things, 180 00:10:06.320 --> 00:10:07.879 and often that's an idea of people who have been 181 00:10:07.960 --> 00:10:10.159 kind of rejected by their own families, or their families 182 00:10:10.159 --> 00:10:12.600 are dead or something has happened and they have to 183 00:10:12.639 --> 00:10:16.080 turn to each other to find family. And found family 184 00:10:16.159 --> 00:10:18.600 is kind of in opposition to or a replacement for 185 00:10:18.720 --> 00:10:22.960 blood family, and this is both. Really it is a 186 00:10:23.759 --> 00:10:27.200 primarily a family of you know, people who are like 187 00:10:27.759 --> 00:10:31.120 directly related to each other, a wife, a husband, a 188 00:10:31.159 --> 00:10:34.200 brother in law, the brother of the wife, and then 189 00:10:34.919 --> 00:10:36.720 a found family and that you know is the best 190 00:10:36.759 --> 00:10:39.960 friend of the of the husband that in that connection, 191 00:10:40.200 --> 00:10:42.559 and so I like that it's a bit of a blend, 192 00:10:42.600 --> 00:10:44.039 but it is much more of just like this is 193 00:10:44.080 --> 00:10:46.440 just an actual family with of course them having a 194 00:10:46.519 --> 00:10:48.799 child becoming a huge part of the story as well. 195 00:10:49.679 --> 00:10:51.840 Yeah, I would say it's a it's a formed family, 196 00:10:52.480 --> 00:10:55.039 like for Found family. I think of The Guardians, right 197 00:10:55.080 --> 00:10:59.320 where they are literally forced into the situation through outside circumstances, 198 00:10:59.320 --> 00:11:01.360 and initially they don't want to be They don't like 199 00:11:01.399 --> 00:11:04.200 each other, et cetera, et cetera. Right, Like the least 200 00:11:04.320 --> 00:11:09.399 family member here is Ben Graham, the Thing, but he's 201 00:11:09.399 --> 00:11:12.879 been Read's best friend all his life, you know, depending 202 00:11:12.879 --> 00:11:15.519 on the story, like from a very young age. So 203 00:11:15.799 --> 00:11:18.679 as adults, they're they're just this is my best friend, 204 00:11:19.279 --> 00:11:23.080 and to them like that is that is an important 205 00:11:23.120 --> 00:11:26.080 bond and it has been there since the beginning of 206 00:11:26.120 --> 00:11:29.000 this movie since you know, even past the four year 207 00:11:29.320 --> 00:11:34.639 flashback right of their mission decades probably for them at 208 00:11:34.639 --> 00:11:35.080 this point. 209 00:11:35.799 --> 00:11:38.080 Yeah, if anyone is kind of an outsider in the family, 210 00:11:38.279 --> 00:11:41.120 and again they it's never thought that they might leave, 211 00:11:41.200 --> 00:11:43.240 but they're kind of like the odd man out. It's 212 00:11:43.320 --> 00:11:46.639 Johnny Storm, the brother. He's more of an odd man 213 00:11:46.679 --> 00:11:47.759 out I think than the Thing is. 214 00:11:47.919 --> 00:11:55.200 Yeah, personality wise, sure, he's well has he left. Yeah, 215 00:11:55.360 --> 00:11:58.879 in the he is not a member of the four 216 00:11:59.120 --> 00:12:02.200 in the cartoon, but again that was for weird like 217 00:12:02.320 --> 00:12:05.080 legal reasons, like they thought they were gonna use him 218 00:12:05.120 --> 00:12:08.320 in a Spider Man cartoon, so they admitted him from 219 00:12:08.320 --> 00:12:12.240 the Fantastic Four and that's when Herbie the Robots was 220 00:12:12.279 --> 00:12:17.039 introduced as the fourth member. Okay, the Thing has left 221 00:12:17.120 --> 00:12:19.879 the group from time to time, sometimes because he's cured, 222 00:12:20.480 --> 00:12:23.120 sometimes I think because he wants to focus on his 223 00:12:23.159 --> 00:12:26.559 own personal life and family, And the she Hulk has 224 00:12:26.639 --> 00:12:29.039 joined the Fantastic Four during those periods. 225 00:12:31.000 --> 00:12:32.960 I mean, and certainly I think in a comic book 226 00:12:33.039 --> 00:12:37.360 run that spans decades and decades, yeah, of course it's 227 00:12:37.360 --> 00:12:39.120 not going to stay together. But I think that's very 228 00:12:39.120 --> 00:12:41.919 different than a movie where you know, Guardians, I think 229 00:12:42.000 --> 00:12:44.840 is the one. I don't think the Guardians never really 230 00:12:44.879 --> 00:12:47.399 had a full breakdown of the team. I guess they 231 00:12:47.399 --> 00:12:49.639 short of have, but they've been more together as a team, 232 00:12:49.639 --> 00:12:52.080 I think than most MCU teams. But yeah, in terms 233 00:12:52.080 --> 00:12:55.639 of the on screen stuff, well, so let's shift to 234 00:12:55.720 --> 00:12:57.519 some of the ethical questions that come up from this, 235 00:12:57.720 --> 00:12:59.200 and there's a few that I want to get into 236 00:12:59.240 --> 00:13:00.679 that I think are gonna be into the one you 237 00:13:00.720 --> 00:13:03.000 wanted to talk about. You've been kind of hinting at 238 00:13:03.039 --> 00:13:06.879 the idea that this shows that read Richards might mister 239 00:13:07.000 --> 00:13:10.159 Fantastic himself might well become a villain at some point. 240 00:13:10.399 --> 00:13:12.000 Talk about about that and kind of what your thoughts 241 00:13:12.039 --> 00:13:15.000 are on that, because I'm not quite sure I know 242 00:13:15.080 --> 00:13:18.519 what you meant by read Richards has some like potential 243 00:13:18.519 --> 00:13:22.600 for villainy in this in this one. 244 00:13:21.519 --> 00:13:25.039 So do you want me to talk about the movie 245 00:13:25.080 --> 00:13:27.720 first or his comic book history. 246 00:13:28.080 --> 00:13:29.399 Let's talk about the movie first. 247 00:13:29.759 --> 00:13:35.279 Okay, So in this movie, to me, the critical scene 248 00:13:35.759 --> 00:13:42.559 was after their baby is born. He's talking to Franklin 249 00:13:42.720 --> 00:13:47.759 and he says something along the lines of I don't 250 00:13:47.799 --> 00:13:51.600 want you to be like me, because there's something wrong 251 00:13:51.639 --> 00:13:53.600 with me. Do you remember that? 252 00:13:54.000 --> 00:13:54.200 Yep? 253 00:13:54.279 --> 00:13:59.120 Line? And I perked up when he said that, Like 254 00:13:59.159 --> 00:14:01.440 what the heck? Like, what do you mean? Right? 255 00:14:01.799 --> 00:14:02.720 Yeah? 256 00:14:03.399 --> 00:14:07.360 Because I think as a new parent, you can probably 257 00:14:07.440 --> 00:14:11.000 relate to this is your child, Like you want your 258 00:14:11.120 --> 00:14:16.080 child to grow up like you obviously, like be better 259 00:14:16.159 --> 00:14:19.039 than you in a lot of ways. But part of 260 00:14:19.120 --> 00:14:23.399 parenting is imprinting and teaching. Yeah, and so like, why 261 00:14:23.440 --> 00:14:26.039 wouldn't you want your child to be like you? Like? 262 00:14:26.080 --> 00:14:28.240 What are you saying about yourself? Right? So that's what 263 00:14:28.320 --> 00:14:31.679 I was, like, what is he saying about himself? Like 264 00:14:31.799 --> 00:14:33.159 what is wrong with him? 265 00:14:33.399 --> 00:14:33.679 Right? 266 00:14:34.039 --> 00:14:37.960 And and a lot of the other elements of this 267 00:14:38.039 --> 00:14:41.720 movie kind of hint at this that what is fundamentally 268 00:14:41.879 --> 00:14:46.559 wrong with Reid is that he's too smart. M he is. 269 00:14:46.960 --> 00:14:50.960 He's usually cited as the smartest person on Earth or 270 00:14:50.960 --> 00:14:53.200 the Marvel Universe, or however you want to classify it, 271 00:14:53.480 --> 00:14:55.480 like he's he's number one with a bullet and like 272 00:14:55.519 --> 00:14:58.039 people you know, argue about the rest like Tony Stark 273 00:14:58.159 --> 00:15:00.799 number two, readre Williams is number three, et cetera, et cetera, 274 00:15:01.000 --> 00:15:05.519 Like downline, where does doctor Doom fit? He's he's usually 275 00:15:05.639 --> 00:15:10.799 number one, And that's that's one of those things that 276 00:15:10.960 --> 00:15:18.399 is often presented as a curse to read that he's 277 00:15:18.399 --> 00:15:20.639 too smart for his own good. He's too smart in 278 00:15:20.720 --> 00:15:26.720 like when when Doctor Strange in Infinity War does the 279 00:15:26.759 --> 00:15:29.519 timestone things and he's like, I've looked at fourteen million 280 00:15:29.679 --> 00:15:33.159 futures right right, or the leader in the New Captain 281 00:15:33.159 --> 00:15:36.759 American movies, like I've made all these calculated probability calculations. 282 00:15:37.159 --> 00:15:40.440 Those are both things that like very much are read 283 00:15:40.559 --> 00:15:44.759 Richard's like he thinks through all of the permutations of 284 00:15:44.799 --> 00:15:47.360 the scenarios and he's like, this is this is what 285 00:15:47.440 --> 00:15:52.559 has to happen, right, And it's very mathematical and logical. 286 00:15:53.919 --> 00:15:57.120 And the reason that that can go in a path 287 00:15:57.159 --> 00:16:00.639 of villainy is that it it might not be ethical, 288 00:16:00.720 --> 00:16:04.320 it might not be you know, human in a sense emotional, 289 00:16:04.440 --> 00:16:07.600 Like I think emotion can be a detriment, but it's 290 00:16:07.799 --> 00:16:12.759 important to humans and humanity because that fundamentally is who 291 00:16:12.759 --> 00:16:15.960 we are. And if you just do things by calculation, 292 00:16:16.120 --> 00:16:18.840 you know, it's like the trolley problem. M h. And 293 00:16:18.879 --> 00:16:20.799 I think I cited this to you in our discussion 294 00:16:20.840 --> 00:16:25.759 about this, that he ran the trolley problem. Yeah, and 295 00:16:25.840 --> 00:16:28.840 one of the ethical dilemma in this movie is to 296 00:16:28.960 --> 00:16:33.600 stop Galactus from eating the earth, do you give up 297 00:16:33.639 --> 00:16:34.639 your child? 298 00:16:35.080 --> 00:16:35.279 Right? 299 00:16:35.320 --> 00:16:40.440 And at one point he concluded yes, that that was 300 00:16:40.519 --> 00:16:42.600 that was the correct thing to do mathematically. 301 00:16:43.240 --> 00:16:46.519 M So, I have a number of levels in which 302 00:16:46.519 --> 00:16:48.360 I can respond to this, and it's kind of perfect 303 00:16:48.440 --> 00:16:54.240 because I do think that. So I do believe in 304 00:16:54.279 --> 00:16:59.000 trolley problems, not as a final way to decide things, 305 00:16:59.559 --> 00:17:04.039 but as a way to better understand questions and to 306 00:17:04.160 --> 00:17:07.640 avoid because I agree with you that, like pure logic 307 00:17:07.720 --> 00:17:11.119 is a problem, but I also think sentimentality is a problem. 308 00:17:11.519 --> 00:17:13.119 And I'm kind of really glad that this is the 309 00:17:13.160 --> 00:17:14.680 direction I thought you were going in, because this ties 310 00:17:14.720 --> 00:17:16.599 into the ethical question I really wanted to wrestle with, 311 00:17:16.880 --> 00:17:19.279 which is that trolley problem itself and the whole nature 312 00:17:19.279 --> 00:17:24.680 of it, because I think being overly just taking all 313 00:17:24.720 --> 00:17:26.839 emotion out of it is problematic. But I also think 314 00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:31.160 sentimentality and working on sentiment rather than cold hard facts 315 00:17:31.200 --> 00:17:35.640 can be really problematic. But before even I use that 316 00:17:35.720 --> 00:17:37.559 to set it up, because I will say, as a 317 00:17:37.599 --> 00:17:39.960 new parent, and again, I don't mean that my opinion 318 00:17:40.000 --> 00:17:42.559 Trump's yours in any way, shape or form. You brought 319 00:17:42.559 --> 00:17:45.519 that up to want to give that perspective. I incredibly 320 00:17:45.559 --> 00:17:48.240 identified with Read Richards when he said that, and to me, 321 00:17:48.279 --> 00:17:50.839 it didn't feel villainous at all. It felt like the 322 00:17:50.880 --> 00:17:56.680 statement of someone who wrestled with mental illness, because I 323 00:17:56.720 --> 00:17:59.720 think to me, at least part of what Read is 324 00:17:59.720 --> 00:18:02.640 going through. And I'm probably projecting like crazy here, but 325 00:18:04.960 --> 00:18:07.200 he he's someone who deals with a lot of anxiety, 326 00:18:07.720 --> 00:18:10.720 and one of the ways that or anxiety is kind 327 00:18:10.720 --> 00:18:12.039 of a clinical term. I don't mean to you in 328 00:18:12.039 --> 00:18:15.359 that way, but like there are some kind of brains 329 00:18:15.519 --> 00:18:19.519 where you look at a situation and you see the 330 00:18:19.559 --> 00:18:23.319 worst possible outcomes, You see what's what could go wrong here, 331 00:18:23.359 --> 00:18:25.880 and you start worrying about that, and that can get 332 00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:28.799 to a point where it's like not you know, it 333 00:18:28.799 --> 00:18:30.079 can be a point where it's like you have a 334 00:18:30.079 --> 00:18:32.519 really honed danger sense and it's a good thing, or 335 00:18:32.519 --> 00:18:35.319 it could be a point where it's like pathological paranoia 336 00:18:35.359 --> 00:18:41.160 and you're imagining threats all the time. And to me, 337 00:18:41.599 --> 00:18:44.279 I am a person who has a number of mental illnesses, 338 00:18:46.160 --> 00:18:50.200 anxiety depression being one, and some level of PTSD borderline 339 00:18:50.279 --> 00:18:53.559 is another, though obviously they're very linked, and a genetic 340 00:18:53.799 --> 00:19:00.920 predisposition to alcoholism and the borderline especially is also very genetic. 341 00:19:02.400 --> 00:19:04.240 Obviously was triggered by a lot of you know, trauma 342 00:19:04.279 --> 00:19:07.200 in my life, but I have a genetic predisposition to it, 343 00:19:07.400 --> 00:19:09.119 uh and there are numerous other people in my family 344 00:19:09.160 --> 00:19:12.680 you have that. And when Mary and I were thinking 345 00:19:12.680 --> 00:19:15.279 of having a child the first time a couple of 346 00:19:15.400 --> 00:19:20.680 years ago, I actually started looking a lot at in 347 00:19:20.759 --> 00:19:24.359 virtual fertilization with someone else's sperm or some other way 348 00:19:24.440 --> 00:19:29.200 of removing my genetics from the proposition, because the last 349 00:19:29.200 --> 00:19:31.039 thing I would want is someone to have a brain 350 00:19:31.160 --> 00:19:34.519 like mine, and I want my child to be smart. 351 00:19:34.519 --> 00:19:35.880 I want my child to be you know, have a 352 00:19:35.880 --> 00:19:38.319 lot of the ethical thinking that I do. But there's 353 00:19:38.319 --> 00:19:40.359 a lot of demons that I've had to wrestle with 354 00:19:40.519 --> 00:19:43.359 and often lost and hurt people and hurt myself, but 355 00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:46.559 especially hurt others because of that that I definitely hope 356 00:19:46.559 --> 00:19:49.119 my child doesn't have to do. And so for me, 357 00:19:49.319 --> 00:19:51.720 that's what I connected to. And Reid said that was 358 00:19:51.720 --> 00:19:54.880 wasn't a he thinks he's evil or bad, but just 359 00:19:54.920 --> 00:19:58.279 thinks he's wrestling with these demons. And I guess he 360 00:19:58.279 --> 00:20:00.400 does have a villainy asperking that he's ano that it 361 00:20:00.440 --> 00:20:03.519 could go in this very dark direction. So I'll pause 362 00:20:03.559 --> 00:20:05.119 there and then I'll get more into the trolley problem 363 00:20:05.119 --> 00:20:06.839 of it, but just to give you a different perspective 364 00:20:06.880 --> 00:20:08.960 on where he could be coming from there. 365 00:20:12.359 --> 00:20:14.599 Yeah, I mean that makes sense. 366 00:20:15.119 --> 00:20:21.640 Mm hmm. I think. Then the other part of it 367 00:20:21.640 --> 00:20:24.839 to me is and it's funny because this is the 368 00:20:24.880 --> 00:20:28.160 ethical question I wanted to wrestle with. If I'm hearing 369 00:20:28.160 --> 00:20:31.440 you right, you think that running thinking about things in 370 00:20:31.559 --> 00:20:36.200 terms of trolley problems, is itself wrong or problematic? Is 371 00:20:36.200 --> 00:20:36.839 is that accurate? 372 00:20:40.920 --> 00:20:46.240 I don't. I don't think so, Okay. I think my 373 00:20:46.400 --> 00:20:52.440 issue is that the trolley problem is is simplistic. It's simplistic, 374 00:20:53.319 --> 00:20:59.000 simplifies things just to numbers, right, right, And as humans, 375 00:20:59.759 --> 00:21:03.480 I think that we have to have emotion and things 376 00:21:03.559 --> 00:21:05.839 or like some we are guided by emotions, whether it's 377 00:21:05.920 --> 00:21:08.119 right or wrong, and that's what makes us human. 378 00:21:08.519 --> 00:21:08.799 Right. 379 00:21:09.039 --> 00:21:12.079 So it's like, you know, the classic trolley problem of 380 00:21:12.119 --> 00:21:15.039 like do you put it on the track where the 381 00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:20.079 trolley only harms one person or harms five people, But 382 00:21:20.839 --> 00:21:24.799 it doesn't posit whether you know any of these people, right, right, 383 00:21:25.000 --> 00:21:28.920 And I think the natural inclination of anyone is if 384 00:21:28.960 --> 00:21:31.440 you know the one person, if they are important to you, 385 00:21:31.440 --> 00:21:33.799 you will switch the trolley to the other five if 386 00:21:33.799 --> 00:21:36.039 you don't know them, if they're strangers, right, and that 387 00:21:36.960 --> 00:21:39.920 you know that. You may say that that is ethically wrong, 388 00:21:39.960 --> 00:21:42.720 but that's just what makes us human and I kind 389 00:21:42.720 --> 00:21:45.279 of have to accept that that a in an actual 390 00:21:45.319 --> 00:21:47.799 live situation, that's how I would act. 391 00:21:48.519 --> 00:21:49.400 Yeah. 392 00:21:49.480 --> 00:21:52.240 And it's because again, like it's simplified, and it's a 393 00:21:52.319 --> 00:21:55.680 known quantity in a real if there were some kind 394 00:21:55.680 --> 00:21:59.839 of real trolley situation, you don't know if you switch 395 00:21:59.839 --> 00:22:02.960 the like what it's gonna do, and like someone explaining 396 00:22:02.960 --> 00:22:04.559 to you, like, ah, but if you switch the track 397 00:22:04.599 --> 00:22:06.920 in this moment, five strangers to you will die. Like 398 00:22:06.960 --> 00:22:09.759 that's never like right in the heat of a moment, 399 00:22:09.799 --> 00:22:13.000 that's never happening, right. So I think the natural inclination 400 00:22:13.079 --> 00:22:15.599 of I'm going to save the person that is close 401 00:22:15.640 --> 00:22:20.279