WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:01.120 Hey guys, it's Jack. 2 00:00:01.199 --> 00:00:03.240 I just wanted to talk to you today about a 3 00:00:03.279 --> 00:00:05.919 way that you can help support the podcast if you're 4 00:00:05.960 --> 00:00:09.519 not already to support the channel is to become a 5 00:00:09.519 --> 00:00:13.000 Patreon member. So we have Patreon memberships that start at 6 00:00:13.199 --> 00:00:15.919 just five dollars a month, and when you sign up, 7 00:00:15.919 --> 00:00:19.160 you get access to all of our episodes add free. 8 00:00:19.640 --> 00:00:21.679 That's the big bonus for that. I mean, we also 9 00:00:21.719 --> 00:00:26.239 do some Patreon bonus episodes for our subscribers, but this 10 00:00:26.320 --> 00:00:28.960 is the biggest and best way that you can support 11 00:00:29.079 --> 00:00:33.679 the Teamhouse channel and podcast if you'd like to, and 12 00:00:33.799 --> 00:00:36.200 we really appreciate that, So go and check us out 13 00:00:36.200 --> 00:00:48.920 at patreon dot com. Slash The Teamhouse, Special Operations, cobt Ops, Espionage. 14 00:00:49.479 --> 00:00:56.280 The Team House with your hosts, Jack Murphy and David Bark. 15 00:01:00.679 --> 00:01:03.640 Hello, everyone, welcome to episode three hundred and twenty four 16 00:01:03.640 --> 00:01:05.959 of The Team House. I'm Jack here with Dave and 17 00:01:06.120 --> 00:01:09.159 our guest on tonight's show is Tom Gaines. He's the 18 00:01:09.200 --> 00:01:14.079 author of Quantum Dagger, which I read here on my kindle. Tom, 19 00:01:14.079 --> 00:01:17.400 you want to hold up the paperback version. You can 20 00:01:17.439 --> 00:01:20.239 go and find both of these out on Amazon now 21 00:01:20.439 --> 00:01:24.120 and pick up a copy. Tom serves as a signals 22 00:01:24.159 --> 00:01:28.400 officer and a United States Army Special Operations Command officer, 23 00:01:28.840 --> 00:01:29.239 and he. 24 00:01:29.239 --> 00:01:30.040 Wrote this book. 25 00:01:30.319 --> 00:01:34.599 It envisions near term war and how technology is going 26 00:01:34.640 --> 00:01:38.480 to impact tomorrow's conflicts. So, Tom, welcome to the show. 27 00:01:38.519 --> 00:01:40.439 I'm really happy to have you on here. I really 28 00:01:40.519 --> 00:01:41.239 enjoyed the book. 29 00:01:42.439 --> 00:01:46.519 Yeah, thanks, I appreciate you guys inviting me on. I 30 00:01:46.560 --> 00:01:49.680 really like what you all do with the team house, 31 00:01:50.239 --> 00:01:54.599 the discussions that you all have with different members of 32 00:01:54.640 --> 00:01:57.400 the community. I think what you guys do is phil 33 00:01:57.439 --> 00:02:01.799 a pretty important niche which is not filled by a 34 00:02:01.840 --> 00:02:04.680 lot of the other other podcasts that are out there. 35 00:02:04.719 --> 00:02:06.519 So yeah, I appreciate what you guys are doing. 36 00:02:06.560 --> 00:02:09.000 That's a strong endorsement. Thank you, Tom, I'll take that. 37 00:02:11.199 --> 00:02:14.599 So let's let's start off talking a little bit about 38 00:02:14.639 --> 00:02:17.759 you and your military career and which will of course 39 00:02:17.840 --> 00:02:18.879 lead us into the book. 40 00:02:19.879 --> 00:02:21.240 Tell us a little bit about you. 41 00:02:21.159 --> 00:02:23.680 Know, where you came from and how you ended up 42 00:02:23.680 --> 00:02:24.400 in the army. 43 00:02:24.479 --> 00:02:26.039 What was that path like for you. 44 00:02:27.159 --> 00:02:30.840 Yeah, so, I mean all stories started at the beginning. 45 00:02:31.400 --> 00:02:34.840 So my dad was in the Army. He was actually 46 00:02:34.840 --> 00:02:39.680 a Medical Corps officer, so he was a physician. He 47 00:02:39.840 --> 00:02:42.280 got out like right when I was in like third grade, 48 00:02:42.520 --> 00:02:46.000 at the beginning of a desert storm. So I was 49 00:02:46.080 --> 00:02:49.520 vaguely around the military, but not really for the most 50 00:02:49.520 --> 00:02:53.840 of my life. Then we moved to East Tennessee, grew 51 00:02:53.919 --> 00:02:55.919 up always saying that I was going to follow in 52 00:02:55.960 --> 00:02:58.919 his footsteps, did what everybody else did, and went to 53 00:02:59.000 --> 00:03:01.680 college and kind of ran into some trouble because I 54 00:03:01.680 --> 00:03:03.759 didn't know what I wanted to do with my life. 55 00:03:04.759 --> 00:03:07.719 You know. I finally got to the point where the 56 00:03:07.759 --> 00:03:11.800 world was open to me, and I struggled. Fortunately, though, 57 00:03:12.319 --> 00:03:16.439 I kind of stumbled onto ROTC. I thought about, honestly 58 00:03:16.560 --> 00:03:20.520 just dropping out of school and enlisting, but that seemed 59 00:03:20.520 --> 00:03:22.840 a little bit drastic to do something I had no 60 00:03:22.919 --> 00:03:24.199 idea what I was gonna do. I was like, Oh, 61 00:03:24.319 --> 00:03:27.120 just try this ROTC thing, see what that is. I 62 00:03:27.120 --> 00:03:29.960 didn't have any idea what the difference would have been 63 00:03:30.080 --> 00:03:32.800 between and listening or you know, going through ROTC and 64 00:03:32.840 --> 00:03:34.879 becoming an officer. I was like, oh, just I'll do 65 00:03:34.919 --> 00:03:37.120 this thing. And it turned out to me a great 66 00:03:37.159 --> 00:03:41.759 decision for me, right, because essentially I just lacked sort 67 00:03:41.759 --> 00:03:45.919 of discipline and drive to accomplish things on my own. 68 00:03:45.960 --> 00:03:48.639 So I kind of latched onto what the armory provided 69 00:03:48.680 --> 00:03:52.520 in ROTC and I just borrowed theirs and it was 70 00:03:52.680 --> 00:03:57.039 enough to get me get me through. I College was 71 00:03:57.039 --> 00:03:59.840 wasted on me then, but that's all that's w right. 72 00:04:00.199 --> 00:04:04.599 I think the youth is wasted on the young. I 73 00:04:04.719 --> 00:04:10.080 made it through though, and commissioned into the infantry, went 74 00:04:10.159 --> 00:04:13.120 through the infantry pipeline, so you know, the Benning School 75 00:04:13.159 --> 00:04:16.240 for boys, and then Ranger school and then Airborne school, 76 00:04:16.240 --> 00:04:18.800 and then my first duty assignment was with three to 77 00:04:18.839 --> 00:04:23.560 two Striker Brigade Combat Team out of Fort Lewis. Showed 78 00:04:23.639 --> 00:04:27.879 up about a month or two before they were due 79 00:04:27.879 --> 00:04:30.639 to employee, so immediately hopped on the first deployment with 80 00:04:30.720 --> 00:04:34.600 him in two thousand and six. Did fifteen months there. 81 00:04:36.000 --> 00:04:38.720 While I was there, I kind of decided that the 82 00:04:38.800 --> 00:04:42.279 infantry life wasn't necessarily for me, so I transferred over 83 00:04:42.399 --> 00:04:46.079 to the Signal Corps because I wasn't ready to just 84 00:04:46.439 --> 00:04:49.120 get out of the Army altogether. So I said, well, 85 00:04:49.160 --> 00:04:52.279 I've kind of got a technical aptitude. I'll try this 86 00:04:52.360 --> 00:04:55.360 Signal Corps thing again. I have no idea what I'm doing. 87 00:04:55.439 --> 00:04:57.120 I just think, oh, yeah, this will be cool. I'll 88 00:04:57.160 --> 00:05:03.240 go do that. So I do that transition, do another 89 00:05:03.360 --> 00:05:07.439 rotation in Iraq, get back. After that rotation, they send 90 00:05:07.480 --> 00:05:09.399 me to school to learn how to be a Signal 91 00:05:09.439 --> 00:05:19.680 Corps officer. And while I was at Fort Gordon, I 92 00:05:19.720 --> 00:05:22.040 got a I got an email saying, hey, come to this, 93 00:05:22.800 --> 00:05:27.160 come to this briefing. You know we're going to We're 94 00:05:27.160 --> 00:05:29.920 going to tell you about you know, this special assignment 95 00:05:29.959 --> 00:05:33.560 within Army Special Operations Command. Maybe maybe it'll be interested. 96 00:05:33.800 --> 00:05:35.480 I had no idea what it was about. If you 97 00:05:35.519 --> 00:05:38.399 notice there's a theme here, but I was like, yeah, 98 00:05:38.600 --> 00:05:41.279 I want to do something interesting. So I showed up. 99 00:05:41.959 --> 00:05:44.199 They said, we can't tell you what this is, but 100 00:05:44.279 --> 00:05:45.959 you know, come and come and try out if you're 101 00:05:45.959 --> 00:05:51.800 good enough. Cool. So I did that. I you know, 102 00:05:51.920 --> 00:05:55.199 I kept raising my hand and saying, yeah, I'll do this, 103 00:05:55.399 --> 00:05:57.560 and it's it's worked out pretty well for me. I 104 00:05:57.560 --> 00:05:59.399 think one of the great things about the Army is 105 00:05:59.439 --> 00:06:05.199 there's so many opportunities for that where you know, if 106 00:06:05.199 --> 00:06:09.000 you're just willing to do things, there's all sorts of 107 00:06:09.000 --> 00:06:13.040 different paths where you can find what it is specifically 108 00:06:13.079 --> 00:06:15.240 that you want to go. It may not all be glamorous, 109 00:06:15.279 --> 00:06:18.600 it may not all be perfect. But there are so 110 00:06:18.720 --> 00:06:21.839 many different opportunities in the Army if if you kind 111 00:06:21.839 --> 00:06:23.920 of take a chance and find them. So I did 112 00:06:23.920 --> 00:06:27.040 that and it worked out really well for me in 113 00:06:27.199 --> 00:06:28.120 this case. 114 00:06:28.199 --> 00:06:30.560 Tom, I think your camera got knocked out of focus 115 00:06:30.639 --> 00:06:31.120 a little bit. 116 00:06:32.240 --> 00:06:35.920 If I can't hold there, you go go perfect. 117 00:06:38.199 --> 00:06:38.480 Cool. 118 00:06:38.519 --> 00:06:41.199 So yeah, it sounds like you were constantly looking to 119 00:06:41.279 --> 00:06:43.759 challenge yourself and see what the next thing was and 120 00:06:44.040 --> 00:06:45.120 found what you were looking for. 121 00:06:45.199 --> 00:06:47.759 It sounds like, yeah, exactly. 122 00:06:47.839 --> 00:06:52.319 You know, I I didn't want to do the typical thing. 123 00:06:52.360 --> 00:06:54.959 I wanted to be able to make make an impact 124 00:06:56.399 --> 00:06:58.720 greater than what I thought I'd be able to do 125 00:06:58.839 --> 00:07:04.199 if I just, you know, stayed doing it enterprise management. 126 00:07:05.079 --> 00:07:07.800 You know, we absolutely need people that do that. I 127 00:07:08.439 --> 00:07:11.800 just would have been been bored. So I needed to 128 00:07:11.879 --> 00:07:15.800 do something else. And that's something else is what led 129 00:07:15.839 --> 00:07:17.199 me to use the SoC. 130 00:07:19.759 --> 00:07:24.319 And you're I mean, what what can you say about 131 00:07:24.360 --> 00:07:26.639 you know, where you're at today, what you're the next 132 00:07:26.680 --> 00:07:28.639 step is, you know, sort of in your career, and 133 00:07:28.800 --> 00:07:31.399 I think you mentioned that you were You're getting towards 134 00:07:31.399 --> 00:07:36.279 the point of retiring out of the right my current job. 135 00:07:36.680 --> 00:07:40.839 I've basically been promoted out of doing anything fun at 136 00:07:40.839 --> 00:07:44.160 this point, so they they pulled me back into doing 137 00:07:44.279 --> 00:07:47.720 infrastructure sorts of things. So my current role is I 138 00:07:47.800 --> 00:07:51.639 am the G six four first Special Forces Command, so 139 00:07:51.720 --> 00:07:57.920 I run all of the IT enterprise for for WHITESFCE, 140 00:07:58.079 --> 00:08:01.160 so all of the green berets and civil affairs. That's 141 00:08:01.240 --> 00:08:05.279 that's my current role for about another four months or so, 142 00:08:05.360 --> 00:08:09.040 and then I'll, you know, get my piece of paper, 143 00:08:09.160 --> 00:08:12.240 my handshake thanking me for my service, and I'll be retired. 144 00:08:12.879 --> 00:08:15.839 Well, unlike US infantry guys, it sounds like you have 145 00:08:15.879 --> 00:08:18.279 a career track where you can actually walk on to 146 00:08:18.399 --> 00:08:20.279 a really good job in the civilian world. 147 00:08:21.879 --> 00:08:24.360 Yeah. The problem is I don't know that I want 148 00:08:24.399 --> 00:08:27.199 to do that. I've found doing that for so long. Yeah, 149 00:08:27.439 --> 00:08:30.319 right out, I don't necessarily want to do that coming out. 150 00:08:30.360 --> 00:08:32.759 So I think what I want to end up is 151 00:08:33.120 --> 00:08:39.720 helping other people figure out how to be adaptable and Brazilian. 152 00:08:39.799 --> 00:08:41.559 So that's been a project that I've been working on 153 00:08:41.679 --> 00:08:45.360 for a couple of years with a neuroscientist out of 154 00:08:45.360 --> 00:08:51.000 Ohio State, basically going back into the Special Operations schoolhouses 155 00:08:51.200 --> 00:08:54.080 and trying to figure out what it is about those 156 00:08:54.120 --> 00:09:01.279 schoolhouses that train operators to survive and thrive and win 157 00:09:01.519 --> 00:09:05.799 when they're put in these sorts of load data, volatile, 158 00:09:05.919 --> 00:09:09.679 uncertain situations. And you know, kind of what we've done 159 00:09:09.759 --> 00:09:13.440 is we've taken those lessons learned and we've brought them 160 00:09:13.480 --> 00:09:18.279 back to his lab and paired it with what neurosciences 161 00:09:18.320 --> 00:09:22.559 is telling us about the way the brain works, and 162 00:09:22.600 --> 00:09:25.159 then translate that into lessons that we can give to 163 00:09:25.960 --> 00:09:29.240 people who aren't going on the Long Walk or aren't 164 00:09:29.240 --> 00:09:32.799 going to Robin Sage or things like that. Getting it 165 00:09:32.840 --> 00:09:36.039 into the schools so we can make kids more adaptable 166 00:09:36.039 --> 00:09:38.399 and resilient as they're they're coming up today. 167 00:09:38.879 --> 00:09:42.039 What are there any preliminary findings from that effort about, 168 00:09:42.080 --> 00:09:44.600 like what is it about special ops training that is 169 00:09:44.679 --> 00:09:47.679 kind of like giving these qualities, giving us the types 170 00:09:47.720 --> 00:09:49.120 of soldiers that we hope for. 171 00:09:50.440 --> 00:09:54.519 Yeah, so it really comes down to the open ended 172 00:09:54.840 --> 00:09:58.559 nature of what we give them. So when we so 173 00:09:58.600 --> 00:10:04.000 we interviewed a bunch of folks from the community on hey, 174 00:10:04.200 --> 00:10:08.559 you were successful, what was it about you? What was 175 00:10:08.600 --> 00:10:12.240 it about your training that made you successful? And all 176 00:10:12.320 --> 00:10:15.720 of the green Berets pointed to one specific thing, and 177 00:10:15.720 --> 00:10:19.039 that was Robin Sage. So Robin Sage was like the 178 00:10:19.080 --> 00:10:22.799 first point in their career where like it was a 179 00:10:22.960 --> 00:10:26.279 it's a very open ended exercise, right. The the cadre 180 00:10:26.399 --> 00:10:31.320 there do a really good job of just reacting to 181 00:10:31.399 --> 00:10:38.000 whatever the students do. So there is no one set answer. 182 00:10:38.080 --> 00:10:42.039 And unfortunately most of our lives, we're taught, hey, there 183 00:10:42.080 --> 00:10:45.720 is one right answer. In school, you got to get 184 00:10:45.759 --> 00:10:48.840 to the professor's answer, that's the right answer. So we 185 00:10:49.559 --> 00:10:53.840 raise a generation of students who think that way. So 186 00:10:53.919 --> 00:10:56.360 one they think that there's one right answer, and then two, 187 00:10:57.000 --> 00:11:00.120 when things don't necessarily go their way, the immediately to 188 00:11:00.159 --> 00:11:03.279 authority figures to solve their problems for them, right, And 189 00:11:03.279 --> 00:11:06.960 that's that's you see that in kids, you see that 190 00:11:07.159 --> 00:11:10.679 in adults. Now, people are just not necessarily given those skills. 191 00:11:10.720 --> 00:11:14.200 But what Robin Sage does is it essentially removes that 192 00:11:14.320 --> 00:11:18.759 from them. In these sort of open ended exercises, they say, hey, 193 00:11:19.080 --> 00:11:21.559 figure it out, right, So what we've figured out was 194 00:11:21.600 --> 00:11:24.559 that a lot of the gray Beards that have gone 195 00:11:24.600 --> 00:11:27.480 back there, they're long since retired, but they still want 196 00:11:27.519 --> 00:11:30.159 to give back to the community. They're doing it through, 197 00:11:31.000 --> 00:11:34.799 you know, being members at Robin Sage, and they're they're 198 00:11:35.440 --> 00:11:38.360 using words like, hey, trust your gut, use your gut instinct, 199 00:11:38.799 --> 00:11:41.840 you know, use your intuition, things like that, And what 200 00:11:41.919 --> 00:11:47.240 we found is that really what we're doing is we're 201 00:11:47.279 --> 00:11:51.480 training up four different things. We're training up intuition, so 202 00:11:51.600 --> 00:11:55.960 you're an ability to spot something that's different in your environment. 203 00:11:56.480 --> 00:12:00.360 Your imagination so, your ability to come up with a 204 00:12:00.399 --> 00:12:08.360 new plan in response to that. Your common sense, so 205 00:12:08.519 --> 00:12:13.039 your ability to decide wisely even in the absence of 206 00:12:13.080 --> 00:12:17.159 a bunch of data. And then finally, your emotions, so 207 00:12:17.279 --> 00:12:22.919 your ability to actually, like relative regulate your emotion to 208 00:12:23.039 --> 00:12:26.559 take advantage of what it's telling you about yourself and 209 00:12:26.600 --> 00:12:30.759 your environment to make better decisions. So that's what all 210 00:12:30.799 --> 00:12:35.240 of these soft pipelines are actually training up, even though 211 00:12:35.279 --> 00:12:39.399 they didn't necessarily have those words, that's what they were 212 00:12:39.399 --> 00:12:44.879 all doing. So we took those findings. We went to 213 00:12:45.039 --> 00:12:48.480 the Command in General Staff College and tried it out 214 00:12:48.480 --> 00:12:52.080 on some majors because that's where you know, field grade 215 00:12:52.080 --> 00:12:56.240 officers go to get their field grade lobotomies where they're 216 00:12:56.840 --> 00:12:59.240 good idea, fairy colonies, whatever you want to call it. 217 00:12:59.440 --> 00:13:03.679 So we went we tested it on them, and through 218 00:13:04.120 --> 00:13:07.600 we gave them an hour block of instruction on this 219 00:13:07.759 --> 00:13:12.960 new method, and the results were essentially that we raised 220 00:13:13.039 --> 00:13:18.879 their creativity by one standard deviation, which is pretty statistically significant. Right, 221 00:13:18.919 --> 00:13:23.000 So if you came in with an average amount of creativity, 222 00:13:23.120 --> 00:13:25.799 became better than average. If you were below average, we 223 00:13:25.879 --> 00:13:28.360 got you up a little bit. And if you were 224 00:13:28.360 --> 00:13:32.720 already above average created creativity, we made you better. Then 225 00:13:32.759 --> 00:13:39.519 we replicated that study with some college students and so 226 00:13:39.840 --> 00:13:47.919 different different testing, different evaluators, same results. So the college 227 00:13:47.919 --> 00:13:52.879 students were in about two hours, we raised their creative 228 00:13:52.919 --> 00:13:59.840 IQ by one standard deviation. We also raised their resilience 229 00:14:00.320 --> 00:14:02.360 by about the same amount. So what we mean by 230 00:14:02.440 --> 00:14:05.720 resilience is, hey, when your plan breaks, can you come 231 00:14:05.799 --> 00:14:08.679 up with a second plan. And then we're like, oh, 232 00:14:08.720 --> 00:14:11.519 this is cool, let's try it on third graders. So 233 00:14:11.600 --> 00:14:13.879 we tried it. We tried it on third graders, and 234 00:14:13.879 --> 00:14:17.279 we got the same results. So we've that's been published 235 00:14:17.279 --> 00:14:20.519 in the New York Academy of Sciences. It's now like 236 00:14:20.600 --> 00:14:26.919 the second or third most read article in the New 237 00:14:26.960 --> 00:14:31.399 York Academy of Sciences. That's history, and so we're having 238 00:14:31.480 --> 00:14:35.840 a pretty good impact on those findings. Which is pretty exciting. 239 00:14:35.600 --> 00:14:39.320 Is that is that article? Do people have to pay 240 00:14:39.320 --> 00:14:40.000 to download that? 241 00:14:40.399 --> 00:14:43.360 Or or no, it's yeah. So you can just google 242 00:14:43.399 --> 00:14:46.639 New York Academy of Sciences Creativity and it's there. 243 00:14:47.720 --> 00:14:50.240 If you sleepot at night, you know just how disruptive 244 00:14:50.240 --> 00:14:52.600 it can be. Whether you're having trouble falling asleep, you're 245 00:14:52.600 --> 00:14:54.240 waking up sweating in the middle of the night, or 246 00:14:54.360 --> 00:14:57.600 all the above. That's where Ghostbed can help. As the 247 00:14:57.600 --> 00:15:00.279 makers are the coolest beds in the world. Ghost is 248 00:15:00.279 --> 00:15:02.919 your go to for cooling mattresses, cooling pillows, and even 249 00:15:02.960 --> 00:15:06.320 cooling betting from their sendatuor ghost Ice fabric to patent 250 00:15:06.440 --> 00:15:09.679 technology that adjusts with your body temperature. Every ghost Bed 251 00:15:09.720 --> 00:15:12.440 mattress is designed with cooling in mind. So whether you 252 00:15:12.480 --> 00:15:15.320 want a plus your mattress that cushions your shoulders and hips, 253 00:15:15.559 --> 00:15:18.600 or a firmer option with exceptional support, your ghost Bed 254 00:15:18.639 --> 00:15:21.320 will keep you cool and comfortable all night long. When 255 00:15:21.320 --> 00:15:24.600 you purchase a ghost Bed mattress, your comfort is guaranteed. 256 00:15:24.919 --> 00:15:27.440 You can try out your mattress for a one hundred 257 00:15:27.480 --> 00:15:30.240 and one night's risk free and make sure it's the 258 00:15:30.279 --> 00:15:33.320 right fit for you. Plus, they offer free shipping and 259 00:15:33.399 --> 00:15:36.360 most items ship within twenty four hours. If you're not 260 00:15:36.399 --> 00:15:38.919 sure which ghost bed is for you, check out their 261 00:15:38.960 --> 00:15:41.600 mattress quiz. You'll answer a few questions and get your 262 00:15:41.639 --> 00:15:44.600 personalized recommendation. Or reach out for their friendly team of 263 00:15:44.600 --> 00:15:47.600 sleep experts for all the help you need. Even better, 264 00:15:48.960 --> 00:15:53.240 teamhouse listeners can get fifty percent off site wide for 265 00:15:53.320 --> 00:15:56.919 a limited time. Just visit ghostbed dot com slash house 266 00:15:56.960 --> 00:16:00.759 and use code house at checkout. Again that ghostbed dot 267 00:16:00.799 --> 00:16:04.440 com slash house with code house at checkout to say 268 00:16:04.480 --> 00:16:07.399 the whopping fifty percent off site why. And if you're 269 00:16:07.399 --> 00:16:09.480 not in the market for a mattress, check out their pillows. 270 00:16:09.519 --> 00:16:11.879 They're betting they have all kinds of great stuff there. 271 00:16:11.919 --> 00:16:13.960 So thanks to ghost bed and check them out. 272 00:16:14.519 --> 00:16:21.200 We've written stuff for Harvard Business Review, We've Google has 273 00:16:21.360 --> 00:16:23.279 picked up a bunch of our stuff. We work with 274 00:16:23.519 --> 00:16:26.960 NASA is that everybody is after this same problem, right, 275 00:16:27.240 --> 00:16:31.480 whether it's kids today trying to do this or folks 276 00:16:32.000 --> 00:16:35.279 graduating from high school graduating from college. One of the 277 00:16:35.320 --> 00:16:37.039 things that we get when we go out and talk 278 00:16:37.080 --> 00:16:42.559 to the business community is they see their employees that 279 00:16:42.919 --> 00:16:46.600 don't know how to handle adversity or uncertainty right, and 280 00:16:46.639 --> 00:16:48.399 they don't know what to do if they think that 281 00:16:48.440 --> 00:16:50.759 there's like one way to do things, and as soon 282 00:16:50.799 --> 00:16:54.440 as you deviate from that, they fall the pieces. So 283 00:16:54.639 --> 00:16:59.200 this is something that everybody's kind of understood, but nobody's 284 00:16:59.240 --> 00:17:01.639 really had a pretty good an answer with until now. 285 00:17:02.120 --> 00:17:05.880 Pulling those lessons out from the soft community and getting 286 00:17:05.880 --> 00:17:07.599 them out to the rest of the world. 287 00:17:09.240 --> 00:17:12.359 Well, I mean that's a terrific results because the army 288 00:17:12.480 --> 00:17:15.240 has kind of struggled, I think for decades with how 289 00:17:15.319 --> 00:17:18.759 do we inject more creativity and initiative for sure with 290 00:17:18.799 --> 00:17:23.440 our soldiers. And you know that runs up against the micromanaging, 291 00:17:23.559 --> 00:17:27.200 zero defact environment that the military cultivates or did for 292 00:17:27.240 --> 00:17:30.359 a long period of time. So it's interesting and I 293 00:17:30.400 --> 00:17:34.400 think absolutely this is directionally correct about how we train 294 00:17:34.480 --> 00:17:36.279 and indoctrinate soldiers. 295 00:17:37.079 --> 00:17:41.160 Yeah, exactly. So one of the heartening things about this 296 00:17:41.240 --> 00:17:46.680 program is the current CAT commander, Lieutenant General Eagle, So 297 00:17:46.799 --> 00:17:50.440 he oversees all of the military PM right, so all 298 00:17:50.480 --> 00:17:55.359 of the professional military education. He is super interested and 299 00:17:55.440 --> 00:18:00.519 invested in this sort of training because I think he 300 00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:02.680 sees the writing on the wall that it's not going 301 00:18:02.759 --> 00:18:07.799 to be this sort of sterile conflict like we had 302 00:18:07.839 --> 00:18:10.920 in g Watt if we have to go to. 303 00:18:10.640 --> 00:18:14.000 To warm, humans are more important than hardware. 304 00:18:14.400 --> 00:18:17.039 Right exactly. There's there's something about that in you know, 305 00:18:17.119 --> 00:18:19.519 the Soft Truth somewhere I don't know, I don't know 306 00:18:19.559 --> 00:18:20.519 it's written somewhere. 307 00:18:23.000 --> 00:18:25.920 Well, on that note, let's start talking a little bit 308 00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:28.799 about your book, Quantum Dagger that just came out, what 309 00:18:28.839 --> 00:18:33.160 a couple of months ago, I think, So, how did 310 00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:37.000 the idea of even occur to you of writing a novel? 311 00:18:38.079 --> 00:18:40.559 Sounds like you're pretty busy with your military career. How 312 00:18:40.559 --> 00:18:41.640 did that come about? 313 00:18:42.359 --> 00:18:46.359 Yeah, so honestly it came about from this research project. 314 00:18:46.920 --> 00:18:48.880 So my my friend and I were like, all, cool, 315 00:18:48.920 --> 00:18:52.599 we've written this academic piece, We've written a bunch of 316 00:18:52.599 --> 00:18:56.640 these other things, but like, how do we get people 317 00:18:56.640 --> 00:18:59.400 to sort of understand what it is that we're talking about? 318 00:18:59.480 --> 00:19:02.119 And he's like, well, well, uh, you could write a 319 00:19:02.240 --> 00:19:03.839 you could write a novel about it. It's like, I 320 00:19:03.839 --> 00:19:05.720 can't write it. I can't write a novel. I'm not 321 00:19:05.759 --> 00:19:10.000 a guy who's had any sort of desire intent to 322 00:19:10.079 --> 00:19:12.240 do that. I'm not going to do that. He's like, no, 323 00:19:12.279 --> 00:19:15.440 you should totally write that. So again I was like Okay, 324 00:19:15.480 --> 00:19:17.799 I have no idea what this thing is, but I'll 325 00:19:17.839 --> 00:19:21.480 raise my hand and I'll do it. So that that's 326 00:19:21.599 --> 00:19:26.119 kind of the genesis of this novel. So a lot 327 00:19:26.160 --> 00:19:32.480 of our research is juxtaposed against the way that so 328 00:19:32.599 --> 00:19:37.039 many people think that intelligence works. Right. So the common 329 00:19:37.079 --> 00:19:41.079 way that people think that intelligence works is logic and 330 00:19:41.119 --> 00:19:46.720 reasoning based, right, That's that's what kind of got us 331 00:19:46.720 --> 00:19:50.039 to where we are. That's and it's brilliant. We absolutely 332 00:19:50.079 --> 00:19:54.839 need logical reasoning, we need the ability to critically analyze data. 333 00:19:55.440 --> 00:19:58.559 The problem is, human beings are very bad at it. Yeah, 334 00:19:59.039 --> 00:20:04.519 we're just we're just not very good. Fortunately, computers fantastic 335 00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:07.400 at it. Computers are way better at it than we are. 336 00:20:08.039 --> 00:20:10.119 But the problem is we keep trying to make human 337 00:20:10.160 --> 00:20:13.839 beings more like computers and it just is failing spectaclic 338 00:20:13.880 --> 00:20:17.720 because we're not really good at it. So that's sort 339 00:20:17.720 --> 00:20:20.400 of the genesis of this book is a way to 340 00:20:20.400 --> 00:20:25.480 get people to understand that human beings we're never going 341 00:20:25.559 --> 00:20:29.079 to be better at crunching large amounts of data than 342 00:20:29.119 --> 00:20:33.359 computers are, but we're really good at other things. We're 343 00:20:33.359 --> 00:20:37.240 really good at low data environments. Because if you put 344 00:20:37.279 --> 00:20:40.880 even the smartest computer up against the situation where they 345 00:20:40.880 --> 00:20:43.960 don't have a lot of data to work against, they 346 00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:48.880 fail in spectacular ways. So the best example that I 347 00:20:49.039 --> 00:20:55.880 have of this is recently the Marines went up against 348 00:20:55.480 --> 00:21:00.680 an AI pattern recognition software. I don't know if you guys. 349 00:21:00.519 --> 00:21:03.519 Have have heard this, No, I think I know this one. 350 00:21:03.599 --> 00:21:07.480 Yeah, probably like a year ago, where uh, you know, 351 00:21:07.559 --> 00:21:12.799 these these technical engineers have been working for months on 352 00:21:13.400 --> 00:21:18.720 target identification software so that they could detect people moving 353 00:21:18.799 --> 00:21:21.720 in and around the environment. So they were like, all right, 354 00:21:21.720 --> 00:21:23.440 we're gonna we're gonna test. This thing is going to 355 00:21:23.519 --> 00:21:26.279 be great. So they gave they gave the task to 356 00:21:26.319 --> 00:21:29.799 play the Red team to Marines and what are marine's 357 00:21:29.839 --> 00:21:31.599 gonna do? The Marines are going to do marine things. 358 00:21:31.720 --> 00:21:36.279 So one of one marine did somersaults right up to 359 00:21:36.440 --> 00:21:39.960 this turn and was not detected. Another marine like literally 360 00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:43.839 did like the the cartoon get under a cardboard box 361 00:21:44.359 --> 00:21:48.400 and was not detected. Right, a human being standing there 362 00:21:48.440 --> 00:21:50.599 would be like, that's that's totally a dude in a 363 00:21:50.599 --> 00:21:56.279 cardboard boxer somersault. What are you guys doing? But the 364 00:21:56.359 --> 00:21:59.960 computer wasn't trained on that, their data didn't account for it, 365 00:22:00.440 --> 00:22:02.200 so it didn't know what to do with it. 366 00:22:04.039 --> 00:22:07.240 And it's awesome how fast some young marines came up 367 00:22:07.279 --> 00:22:08.240 with a way to defeat that. 368 00:22:09.160 --> 00:22:14.839 Yeah. Right, if you want ingenuity, give give the Efore 369 00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:18.400 mafia a problem and tell them that you're gonna look 370 00:22:18.440 --> 00:22:20.440 the other way and go be back and need a solution. 371 00:22:20.799 --> 00:22:23.599 Right that they will solve every single problem you need 372 00:22:23.599 --> 00:22:28.519 them to. So that's Machines are fantastic, but they're also 373 00:22:28.599 --> 00:22:33.200 fantastically dumb in certain certain cases. So how do we 374 00:22:35.480 --> 00:22:40.880 how do we imagine a world where humans are doing 375 00:22:41.000 --> 00:22:44.880 human things the machines are doing machine things right, Because 376 00:22:44.880 --> 00:22:47.039 the other problem, one of the problems I see right 377 00:22:47.039 --> 00:22:51.440 now is that we are investing so much money in 378 00:22:51.519 --> 00:22:54.839 all of these advanced technologies, and we need to because 379 00:22:54.880 --> 00:22:56.960 there's a lot of great things that they can do, 380 00:22:58.160 --> 00:23:02.720 but it can't come at the expense of training humans 381 00:23:03.000 --> 00:23:07.839 to deal with whatever situation comes with myself, train up 382 00:23:08.119 --> 00:23:15.000 those fundamental skills that make us win in whatever conflict 383 00:23:15.079 --> 00:23:18.400 we need. So that was that was sort of the 384 00:23:18.440 --> 00:23:23.200 genesis of this novel. Hey, are what are the technical 385 00:23:24.880 --> 00:23:29.559 capabilities that might come out in the near future, what's 386 00:23:29.599 --> 00:23:33.640 within the realm of the possible and then what would 387 00:23:33.680 --> 00:23:36.599 it look like if those were sort of taken to 388 00:23:37.039 --> 00:23:39.640 their logical end, if there was, you know, a competitor 389 00:23:39.640 --> 00:23:42.519 that just doubled down on all of these sorts of 390 00:23:42.559 --> 00:23:47.039 advanced technology. And what would happen though, if we just 391 00:23:47.240 --> 00:23:51.680 unleashed the power of an ODA, Right, so a team 392 00:23:51.720 --> 00:23:55.559 of green berets against them, just they happen to be 393 00:23:55.599 --> 00:23:57.920 in the right place at the right time, because that's 394 00:23:58.359 --> 00:24:04.960 one of use of socks, you know, guiding principles right now, 395 00:24:05.079 --> 00:24:11.279 is that they are out in the contact layer working 396 00:24:11.279 --> 00:24:15.319 with our partners, building relationships, and they just have placement 397 00:24:15.400 --> 00:24:19.839 and access in these regions that aren't necessarily in conflict, 398 00:24:19.880 --> 00:24:23.599 but we are absolutely competing. So what could they do 399 00:24:24.519 --> 00:24:28.240 against an adversary who has all of these all of 400 00:24:28.279 --> 00:24:32.480 these advanced systems. So that was that was the genesis 401 00:24:32.599 --> 00:24:33.440