1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,040 Speaker 1: Okay, So I want you to try and imagine something 2 00:00:02,080 --> 00:00:05,639 for me if you can, a physical structure, right, not 3 00:00:05,759 --> 00:00:08,160 a building though, I'm talking about a stack of paper, 4 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:11,080 you know, just standard a four printer paper. 5 00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:12,880 Speaker 2: Okay, I'm with you, and I want you to. 6 00:00:12,839 --> 00:00:17,199 Speaker 1: Just keep stacking it and stacking it until it towers 7 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:19,719 over you. Then keep going until it's I don't know, 8 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:21,199 it's rivaling a skyscraper. 9 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:23,600 Speaker 2: Wow, that's a lot of paper. 10 00:00:23,719 --> 00:00:28,039 Speaker 1: It's an unbelievable amount. We are talking about three million pages. 11 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:32,399 That is the sheer physical weight of the information that 12 00:00:32,439 --> 00:00:34,399 we are that we're dealing with today. 13 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 2: It gives you a sense of vertigo just trying to 14 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:36,880 conceptualize it. 15 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:37,200 Speaker 1: It does. 16 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:39,840 Speaker 2: You look at a number like that, three million, and 17 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:43,439 it stops being dater. It becomes a landscape, a very 18 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:46,280 dark and i'd say a very treacherous landscape. 19 00:00:46,439 --> 00:00:49,240 Speaker 1: Vertigo is the perfect word. And look buried in that 20 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:52,920 skyscraper of paper. It's not just you know, dry financial 21 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:56,079 audits or boring legal stuff. We're talking about one hundred 22 00:00:56,119 --> 00:00:57,280 and eighty thousand. 23 00:00:56,960 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 2: Images, one hundred and eighty thousand, two. 24 00:00:58,759 --> 00:01:04,159 Speaker 1: Thousand videos, and the content, my god, it ranges from 25 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:08,760 the highest most sterilized corridors of global finance, all the 26 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:14,079 way down to the absolute grimiest, most disturbing depths of 27 00:01:14,159 --> 00:01:15,159 human exploitation. 28 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:17,359 Speaker 2: And this is what the BBC is calling a seismic 29 00:01:17,439 --> 00:01:18,680 event exactly. 30 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 1: And I want to be really clear about this right 31 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:23,040 at the top. This is not just the old news 32 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:26,159 cycle spinning around again. This is not a rehash of 33 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:28,599 that Netflix documentary you might have watched a few years ago. 34 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:30,120 Speaker 2: No, this is new. This is raw. 35 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 1: This is a data dump of such magnitude that it 36 00:01:33,239 --> 00:01:37,079 has triggered active investigations in at least ten different countries 37 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:40,599 right now as we speak. This is happening live. 38 00:01:40,599 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 2: And I think that's the first thing we really need 39 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:44,319 to grapple with the scale of it. It creates its 40 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:46,359 own gravity. This isn't a leak. It's a deluge. 41 00:01:46,439 --> 00:01:47,439 Speaker 1: A deluge I like that. 42 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 2: And it's washing away a lot of these curated facades 43 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:52,280 that we've been looking at for well for decades. When 44 00:01:52,319 --> 00:01:54,120 you have three million pages to work with, you just 45 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:55,879 you can't hide in the margins anymore. 46 00:01:56,239 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to thrilling threads. I'm your host, and I am 47 00:01:59,239 --> 00:02:02,599 ready to pull on some very loose and frankly very 48 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:04,319 dangerous strings today. 49 00:02:04,319 --> 00:02:06,319 Speaker 2: And I'm here to help you try and untangle them 50 00:02:06,319 --> 00:02:08,560 without getting stuck in the web. 51 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 1: Because that is exactly what This is a web. And 52 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:16,400 today our mission is to navigate this massive release of 53 00:02:16,439 --> 00:02:20,039 the Epstein files all through the lens of the BBC's reporting. 54 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:22,639 We aren't just talking about the crimes of one man, 55 00:02:22,879 --> 00:02:24,280 a man who's no longer with us. 56 00:02:24,439 --> 00:02:26,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, No, that's a critical distinction. 57 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:29,599 Speaker 1: We are talking about the system, the machine that surrounded him. 58 00:02:29,879 --> 00:02:32,759 Speaker 2: If you view this solely as the story of Jeffrey Epstein, 59 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:35,840 you miss the point. You missed the entire point. This 60 00:02:35,879 --> 00:02:38,639 is a story about the infrastructure of impunity. 61 00:02:38,759 --> 00:02:40,479 Speaker 1: The infrastructure of impunity. Wow. 62 00:02:40,599 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 2: It's about how royalty and government and high finance all 63 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:48,719 intercepted in this really toxic way that enabled abuse on 64 00:02:48,759 --> 00:02:52,039 an industrial scale. It's about the enablers, not just the predator. 65 00:02:52,159 --> 00:02:53,879 Speaker 1: So let's map out where we're going to go today, 66 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:56,680 because there's just so much to cover. We are going 67 00:02:56,719 --> 00:03:00,199 to start with the human cost, which unfortunately includes a 68 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:03,840 truly catastrophic blunder by the Department of Justice that has 69 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:05,840 left survivors just reeling. 70 00:03:06,199 --> 00:03:08,639 Speaker 2: From there, we have to talk about the royal fallout, 71 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:13,520 specifically a new and deeply disturbing photo of Prince Andrew 72 00:03:13,599 --> 00:03:17,240 that really changes the whole conversation from you know he said, 73 00:03:17,319 --> 00:03:20,479 she said too too. We can see you exactly too, 74 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:23,280 we can see you. Then we'll need to cross the 75 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:26,280 Atlantic back to the UK to discuss what is being 76 00:03:26,319 --> 00:03:30,360 called a political earthquake involving Lord Peter Mandelson. 77 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:32,080 Speaker 1: And we're going to get into the weeds on that one. 78 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:34,319 We're talking about the two thousand and eight financial crisis 79 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:38,759 and some I mean terrifyingly specific leaks that suggest state 80 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:40,960 secrets were being traded like baseball cards. 81 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:43,120 Speaker 2: After that, we'll touch on the let's call it the 82 00:03:43,159 --> 00:03:44,240 Billionaire Boys. 83 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 1: Club, Bill Gates, Elon Musk. 84 00:03:45,759 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 2: And this whole concept of a corrosive network. And finally 85 00:03:49,439 --> 00:03:51,800 we'll look at the struggle for truth itself and how 86 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:55,319 BBC Verify is basically fighting a war against fake files 87 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:56,199 in the age of AI. 88 00:03:56,919 --> 00:03:58,479 Speaker 1: It is a dark road map, but like you said, 89 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:01,439 unnecessary one, absolutely okay, So let's jump in, and I 90 00:04:01,439 --> 00:04:03,879 want to start where the BBC suggests we should start, 91 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:06,879 not with the famous men, not with the billionaires or 92 00:04:06,919 --> 00:04:07,879 the princes. 93 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 2: But with the survivors. 94 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:14,159 Speaker 1: Yes, with the survivors, because amidst these millions of pages, 95 00:04:14,599 --> 00:04:18,800 the real story is the continued trauma of the women involved. 96 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:21,360 Speaker 2: You know, there's this phrase we often hear in legal circles. 97 00:04:22,079 --> 00:04:25,360 Justice delayed is justice denied. But I think what we're 98 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:29,519 seeing here is something even worse. It's it's like justice inverted. 99 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:30,720 Speaker 1: What do you mean by that? 100 00:04:30,879 --> 00:04:35,040 Speaker 2: Well, these files, they were supposedly released to bring the 101 00:04:35,079 --> 00:04:37,680 truth to light, right, to provide some kind of closure, 102 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:40,720 But for so many of the survivors, this release has 103 00:04:40,759 --> 00:04:42,399 been an act of violence in itself. 104 00:04:42,519 --> 00:04:45,480 Speaker 1: The BBC featured a statement from a woman named Ashley Rubright. 105 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:48,439 She was introduced to Epstein shortly after she turned fifteen, 106 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:52,000 and her words, they just cut right through all the 107 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:52,879 noise of the scandal. 108 00:04:52,959 --> 00:04:54,800 Speaker 2: I remember reading that. It was powerful. 109 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:57,399 Speaker 1: She said, we would have much rather have just been mongs, 110 00:04:57,839 --> 00:04:59,279 but we weren't able to heal in peace, and now 111 00:04:59,319 --> 00:05:01,600 we're screaming in public because we don't have a choice anymore. 112 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:04,879 Speaker 2: That phrase, screaming in public because we don't have a choice. 113 00:05:04,879 --> 00:05:08,680 It's haunting, isn't it. It just highlights this fundamental misunderstanding 114 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:11,800 the public often has people assume that when a victim 115 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:15,360 comes forward. They want the spotlight, they want to be famous. 116 00:05:15,079 --> 00:05:17,759 Speaker 1: Right that they're seeking attention exactly. 117 00:05:17,519 --> 00:05:19,959 Speaker 2: And Ashley is telling us the absolute opposite. They didn't 118 00:05:19,959 --> 00:05:22,120 ask for this, They didn't ask to be public figures 119 00:05:22,199 --> 00:05:25,079 or activists. They just wanted to live their lives. And 120 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:29,639 this release, while necessary for the historical record, it just 121 00:05:29,879 --> 00:05:32,079 forces them right back into the arena. 122 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:35,959 Speaker 1: And it's made infinitely worse, I mean, just unbelievably worse 123 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:39,560 by what can only be described as a colossal failure 124 00:05:39,639 --> 00:05:40,920 by the Department of Justice. 125 00:05:40,959 --> 00:05:43,360 Speaker 2: Oh, a total failure. Colossal is the right word. 126 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:45,959 Speaker 1: I mean, we're talking about the US government here. They 127 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:49,360 release three and a half million pages, but they accidentally, 128 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:52,480 and I'm using very heavy air quotes here, they accidentally 129 00:05:52,519 --> 00:05:57,199 released information about survivors who specifically requested not to be identified. 130 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:01,959 Speaker 2: It is staggering. The level of incompetence is just it's breathtaking. 131 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:05,759 The BBC spoke to another survivor, Marina Lesera, who met 132 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:10,800 Epstein when she was fourteen. Unbelievable, and she describes finding 133 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:14,199 things in her own files, reading these documents and finding 134 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:16,480 things she didn't even know were there. She said she 135 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:20,000 was in shock that the experience was draining and heartbreaking. 136 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:24,279 Speaker 1: I just have to ask, purely from an organizational logistical standpoint, 137 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:27,639 how does that happen? How you have the Department of Justice, 138 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:30,879 arguably the most powerful legal body in the world. They 139 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:33,959 have resources, they have armies of staff. How do they 140 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:35,759 let names slip through? 141 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:39,279 Speaker 2: Well, it's the collision of bureaucracy and volume. Though that's 142 00:06:39,319 --> 00:06:41,519 hardly an excuse, it sounds a good excuse, it does. 143 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:44,800 The DOJ argues they were under a very strict deadline 144 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:46,920 to comply with the Act. So when you have three 145 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:49,800 and a half million pages, you're relying on a mix 146 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:54,319 of automated redaction software and human review. The software it 147 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:57,920 looks for patterns right name, social security numbers, addresses. But 148 00:06:57,959 --> 00:07:00,319 if a name appears in a handwritten note, or it's 149 00:07:00,319 --> 00:07:03,600 slightly misspelled in some context, the algorithm can just miss it. 150 00:07:03,879 --> 00:07:06,720 Speaker 1: So the machine fails and the human reviewers are what 151 00:07:07,319 --> 00:07:09,720 just overworked and rushing to meet a deadline. 152 00:07:09,879 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 2: That's the argument exactly, But that excuse rings so hollow 153 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:15,879 when you consider the stakes. You know, lawyers for the 154 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:18,600 survivors are saying this has caused irreparable harm. 155 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:21,279 Speaker 1: Of course it has. You can't unring that bell. 156 00:07:21,439 --> 00:07:24,079 Speaker 2: You can't. Once a name is out there, once a 157 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:28,800 sensitive medical detail is published, the internet archives it forever. 158 00:07:29,399 --> 00:07:33,240 It's a second betrayal, first by the abuser and now 159 00:07:33,319 --> 00:07:35,959 by the very institution that was meant to protect them. 160 00:07:36,439 --> 00:07:39,439 It's like the symptom is saying, your privacy matters less 161 00:07:39,439 --> 00:07:40,879 than our paperwork deadline. 162 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:45,319 Speaker 1: And speaking of tragedy of the human cost, there is 163 00:07:45,439 --> 00:07:48,079 one detail in the source material that just stopped me cold. 164 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:51,160 It honestly made me put down the report for a 165 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:52,519 moment and just breathe. 166 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 2: I think I know what you're going to say. 167 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 1: We have to talk about for Gindi Shrich. For so long, 168 00:07:55,759 --> 00:07:58,519 she's been the face of this fight for justice. She's 169 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:00,839 the one who took on a prince, she took on billionaires, 170 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:02,680 She refused to be silenced. 171 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 2: And this is the most devastating part of the entire 172 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:08,720 BBC report. According to the sort material, Virginia's Rufre died 173 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:10,600 by suicide in April of twenty twenty five. 174 00:08:10,959 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 1: It just changes everything, doesn't it. I mean, we are 175 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:16,759 sitting here right now discussing these revelations. We are finally 176 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:19,839 seeing the proof that she fought for for years and 177 00:08:19,879 --> 00:08:23,160 she isn't here to see it. It completely reframes the 178 00:08:23,279 --> 00:08:24,639 entire narrative of victory. 179 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:28,079 Speaker 2: There is no victory here. It's a grim reminder of 180 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:30,560 the toll this takes on a person. It's not just 181 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:33,440 a legal battle for them, it's a battle for survival 182 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:34,840 every single day. 183 00:08:34,919 --> 00:08:38,320 Speaker 1: Her sister in law, Amanda Roberts, she spoke to Newsnight 184 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:42,440 and she called it a bittersweet moment. She said, Virginia 185 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:44,919 should be here, she should be reveling in this truth 186 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:48,480 finally coming out, but instead she's gone. 187 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:52,399 Speaker 2: Amanda said, the world is finally seeing the truth, and 188 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:54,360 that's the core of the tragedy, isn't it. 189 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:54,679 Speaker 1: It is. 190 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 2: The truth is here, It's in these three million pages, 191 00:08:57,639 --> 00:09:00,559 but the person who arguably did more than anyone to 192 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:03,559 drag it into the light paid the ultimate price for it. It 193 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:06,720 just it casts this deep shadow over the entire release. 194 00:09:06,799 --> 00:09:08,879 This isn't a victory lap, it's a memorial. 195 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:10,840 Speaker 1: It reminds us that while we sit here and we 196 00:09:10,879 --> 00:09:13,759 analyze the politics and the money and the power plays, 197 00:09:14,159 --> 00:09:17,080 the foundation of this entire story is she and suffering. 198 00:09:16,879 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 2: And that suffering didn't end when Epstein died. It didn't 199 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:23,919 end when Maxwell went to prison. It continues the trauma. 200 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:26,200 You know. It doesn't adhere to the court schedule. 201 00:09:26,399 --> 00:09:28,799 Speaker 1: No, it does not. And a huge part of that 202 00:09:28,879 --> 00:09:32,759 suffering comes from the actions of the powerful men who 203 00:09:32,799 --> 00:09:35,519 are part of this orbit, which I think leads us 204 00:09:35,519 --> 00:09:37,480 directly to the next thread we have to pull on 205 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:41,879 the royals, the royals, specifically Prince Andrew and his ex 206 00:09:41,919 --> 00:09:43,360 wife Sarah. 207 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 2: Ferguson, a story that just keeps getting worse for the Palace, 208 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:46,679 it really does. 209 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:50,399 Speaker 1: The BBC report details a new photo that emerged on 210 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:54,240 Saturday morning. And if Buckingham Palace was hoping this whole 211 00:09:54,279 --> 00:09:56,639 thing would just be, you know, dense text documents that 212 00:09:56,639 --> 00:09:58,039 people would ignore, they were dead wrong. 213 00:09:58,240 --> 00:09:59,600 Speaker 2: Sus visceral What does it show? 214 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 1: Describes Prince Andrew crouched on all fours over an unidentified 215 00:10:04,399 --> 00:10:07,559 one on all fours, on all first The visual description 216 00:10:07,759 --> 00:10:11,919 is just incredibly damaging. He's described as barefoot, casually dressed, 217 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:15,159 and the location is believed to be Epstein's Manhattan mansion. 218 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 2: It's the all fours detail that's just I mean, it's 219 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:18,120 so debasing. 220 00:10:18,519 --> 00:10:22,519 Speaker 1: It completely strips away that veneer of royal dignity, doesn't it. Yeah, 221 00:10:22,519 --> 00:10:26,399 you know his Royal highness defense. It's very hard to 222 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:29,559 maintain an air of regal detachment or you know, claim 223 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:32,000 you were just there to break off the friendship when 224 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:35,720 there's photographic evidence of you behaving like well, like that. 225 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:38,519 Speaker 2: It just connects back to the strategy Prince Andrew has 226 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:43,279 used for years, which is denial and frankly convenient memory lapses. 227 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 1: The I don't recall defense, I don't. 228 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:48,320 Speaker 2: Recall I wasn't there that photo of me might be doctored. 229 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:53,480 This new release it essentially firebombs that entire defense. When 230 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:55,559 you have a photo of a royal prince in such 231 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:58,720 a compromising position inside the home of a known predator. 232 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:03,120 The I was just shopping buy for tea excuse just evaporates. 233 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 1: Right, Because it's not just this new photo. There's also 234 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:07,480 the matter of the infamous photo, the one we've all 235 00:11:07,519 --> 00:11:08,600 seen a thousand. 236 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:10,279 Speaker 2: Times, the one with Virginia ja Fandra. 237 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:12,960 Speaker 1: Andrew with his arm around a teenage Virginia Javander with 238 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:16,840 Gislaine Maxwell smirking in the background, and he is famously 239 00:11:16,879 --> 00:11:20,639 in that disastrous interview, questioned if that photo was even real. 240 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:23,679 He suggested it was faked, or that his hand didn't 241 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:24,200 look like that. 242 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 2: Ah, Yes, the clumsy hand defense. But this data dump 243 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:30,519 it addresses that directly, doesn't it. 244 00:11:30,519 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 1: It does. There are new emails between Epstein and Ghislaine 245 00:11:34,039 --> 00:11:38,279 Maxwell that seemingly confirmed the photo is one hundred percent authentic, 246 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:41,720 So they talk about it. Yes, Maxwell treats its existence 247 00:11:41,759 --> 00:11:44,919 as a simple matter of fact in their correspondence. So 248 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:48,440 the fake news defense is just crumbling. The walls are 249 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,639 closing in on that specific narrative he's been pushing for years. 250 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:54,480 Speaker 2: But here's where it gets for me, really weird. The 251 00:11:54,519 --> 00:11:56,000 Sarah Ferguson connection. 252 00:11:55,799 --> 00:11:59,440 Speaker 1: The Duchess of York. Yes, the source material highlights emails 253 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:03,440 from her Epstein that are well, startling is the word 254 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:05,759 the BBC used. I'd say that's an understatement. 255 00:12:05,799 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 2: It's baffling. It's just baffling. These emails show a profound 256 00:12:08,919 --> 00:12:12,080 closeness between them. But the key is the timeline. This 257 00:12:12,159 --> 00:12:14,080 is after Epstein's two thousand and eight conviction. 258 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:16,559 Speaker 1: We have to stress that this isn't before in two 259 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:18,960 thousand and eight. Jeffrey Epstein is a convicted sex offender. 260 00:12:19,039 --> 00:12:20,039 He is on the registry. 261 00:12:20,159 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 2: The world knows what he is, and yet, in an 262 00:12:22,159 --> 00:12:25,519 email Sarah Ferguson refers to him as the brother she 263 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:26,559 always wished for. 264 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:31,559 Speaker 1: The brothers she always wished for. A convicted predator. I mean, why, 265 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:34,320 just why? What is the psychology there? 266 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:36,559 Speaker 2: That is the million dollar question, isn't it? And the 267 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:40,080 BBC corresponded Danielle Ralph. She analyzed the tone of these 268 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:44,240 emails and what she found was this very distinct, very telling, 269 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:45,279 power dynamic. 270 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:47,639 Speaker 1: It wasn't a friendship of equals. 271 00:12:47,039 --> 00:12:49,919 Speaker 2: Not at all. Epstein's replies to the Royals were described 272 00:12:49,919 --> 00:12:52,960 as a curt and factual, almost like a boss talking 273 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:56,759 to an employee, really, But the messages from Ferguson and 274 00:12:56,759 --> 00:13:00,679 Andrew they were described as fawning and desperate. 275 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:03,879 Speaker 1: Fawning and desperate. That completely flips the script, doesn't it. 276 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:06,039 We usually assumed the Royals are at the very top 277 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:08,759 of the food chain. We imagine people bowing and scraping 278 00:13:08,799 --> 00:13:09,399 to them, but. 279 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:11,799 Speaker 2: Here they are the ones begging for approval. 280 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:14,519 Speaker 1: So what was it? Was it about money? Was it influence? 281 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:17,559 What did Epstein have that they needed so badly? 282 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:20,039 Speaker 2: It's likely a mix of both, but I think it's 283 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:23,639 primarily about money. We know the Yorks have had significant 284 00:13:23,639 --> 00:13:26,480 financial struggles over the years. Epstein was a man who 285 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:31,000 quote solved financial problems. He was a liquidity provider for. 286 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 1: The elite, so he held all the cards. 287 00:13:33,039 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 2: It suggests that he held the leverage. He didn't need them, 288 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:39,480 they felt they needed him, and that desperation it makes 289 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:42,720 you vulnerable to manipulation. In a sense, he owned them. 290 00:13:42,879 --> 00:13:45,519 Speaker 1: And what's the response from the Palace to all of 291 00:13:45,519 --> 00:13:49,000 this new information? The photo, the emails, silence. 292 00:13:48,879 --> 00:13:53,879 Speaker 2: Just deafening, crushing silence to King Charles, nothing, Prince William nothing, 293 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:57,320 Prince Edward made one brief comment about his thoughts being 294 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:01,200 with the victims. But officially the strategy is hold your 295 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:03,039 breath and hope it all goes away. 296 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:05,840 Speaker 1: But with three million pages, I don't think you can 297 00:14:05,879 --> 00:14:06,879 hold your breath that long. 298 00:14:07,039 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 2: No, then never complain, never explain motto the windsor family crest. Essentially, 299 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:15,759 that works for minor scandals, it works for gossip column stuff. 300 00:14:16,159 --> 00:14:18,519 It does not work when there are three million pages 301 00:14:18,519 --> 00:14:22,440 of evidence systematically dismantling your credibility. You can't just ignore tsunami. 302 00:14:22,559 --> 00:14:25,639 Speaker 1: And speaking of dismantling credibility, let's move from the Palace 303 00:14:25,639 --> 00:14:28,639 to Parliament. Because the BBC is reporting what they're calling 304 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:31,919 a political earthquake in the UK, and it's centered around 305 00:14:31,919 --> 00:14:34,559 one man, Lord Peter Mandelson, and I. 306 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 2: Think for some of our international listeners, we really need 307 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:40,039 to explain just how big of a deal this guy 308 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:43,320 is in British politics. Absolutely, this is where the story 309 00:14:43,399 --> 00:14:49,360 shifts from assorted tabloid scandal to a potential national security crisis. 310 00:14:49,799 --> 00:14:53,960 Peter Mandelson is a titan. He was the Business Secretary, 311 00:14:54,159 --> 00:14:57,759 a former EU Trade Commissioner, and arguably the architect of 312 00:14:57,759 --> 00:15:01,039 the new Labor movement that dominated British politics for a decade. 313 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:04,519 Speaker 1: So he's not some backbencher. He's a genuine power broker. 314 00:15:04,639 --> 00:15:07,559 Speaker 2: He's one of the biggest names in modern British political history. 315 00:15:07,879 --> 00:15:11,679 And the files show money, specifically that Epstein paid seventy 316 00:15:11,679 --> 00:15:15,279 five thousand dollars into accounts linked to Mandelssohn between two 317 00:15:15,279 --> 00:15:16,200 thousand and three and two. 318 00:15:16,039 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 1: Thousand and four, and Mandelssohn's response, no recollection, of course, 319 00:15:19,679 --> 00:15:22,279 it seems to be the catchphrase of the decade for 320 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:23,480 anyone linked to Epstein. 321 00:15:23,759 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 2: It is. But the police aren't just taking his word 322 00:15:26,519 --> 00:15:30,120 for it. They are currently searching two of his properties. Oh, 323 00:15:30,159 --> 00:15:33,240 that is a massive escalation you don't get a warrant 324 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:35,799 to search the home of a former cabinet minister without 325 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:38,120 some very significant probable cause. 326 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:40,799 Speaker 1: But it's not just the money from the early two thousands, 327 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:43,159 is it. It's the emails from two thousand and eight. 328 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:46,720 This is the part that to me reads like a 329 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:47,440 spy thriller. 330 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:50,039 Speaker 2: Let's set the scene. It's the fall of two thousand 331 00:15:50,039 --> 00:15:50,240 and eight. 332 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:54,039 Speaker 1: Right, Leanden Brothers has just collapsed. The entire global financial 333 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:57,559 system is in complete meltdown. Banks are faltering, Governments are 334 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:02,039 panicking everywhere. It's arguable the most dangerous financial moments since 335 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:02,840 the Great Depression. 336 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:06,279 Speaker 2: And in the UK, Peter Mandelsson is the Business Secretary 337 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:09,039 in Gordon Brown's government. He is in the room where 338 00:16:09,039 --> 00:16:11,399 the life, where death, decisions are being made about which 339 00:16:11,399 --> 00:16:12,039 banks survive. 340 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 1: He is at the absolute heart of the crisis response. 341 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:17,519 And according to these new documents, he wasn't just in 342 00:16:17,559 --> 00:16:19,480 the room, he was leaking from. 343 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 2: It in real time. The BBC Business editor Simon Jack 344 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:26,240 notes that information was being relayed from Mandelson to Epstein 345 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:30,600 within minutes of these highly sensitive meetings, concluding within. 346 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:32,679 Speaker 1: Minutes and what kind of information are we talking about? 347 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:35,559 Speaker 2: We are talking about asset sales. We are talking about 348 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:38,519 the breakdown of the Royal Bank of Scotland RBS. We're 349 00:16:38,559 --> 00:16:43,240 even talking about potential Eurozone bailouts, top level state secret 350 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:43,960 kind of stuff. 351 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:47,919 Speaker 1: Let's just pause on that phrase within minutes. Why does 352 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:50,639 that timing matter so much? Why is it so critical? 353 00:16:50,759 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 2: Because in financial markets, information is currency. If you know 354 00:16:55,919 --> 00:16:58,320 that RBS is going to be bailed out or allowed 355 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:00,759 to fail, five minutes before the rest of the market knows, 356 00:17:01,159 --> 00:17:05,359 you possess what traders call alpha, an edge, a massive ed. 357 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:07,759 You can shorten the stock, you can move assets, you 358 00:17:07,799 --> 00:17:12,119 can bet against the currency. If Mandelson text Epstein RBS 359 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:15,759 is done, Epstein can execute trades instantly before that news 360 00:17:15,799 --> 00:17:17,799 ever hits the wire. He can make a fortune. 361 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:21,279 Speaker 1: So this is market sensitive information. This is basically insider trading, 362 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:23,319 but on a sovereign national level. 363 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:25,440 Speaker 2: That's exactly what it is. This isn't just gossip about 364 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:27,680 who's up or down in the government. This is actionable 365 00:17:27,839 --> 00:17:32,319 financial intelligence. Epstein was a financier. He traded on information, 366 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:35,519 and if a city UK government minister was feeding him 367 00:17:35,519 --> 00:17:38,880 inside info on the collapse of the entire British banking sector, 368 00:17:39,519 --> 00:17:42,799 well that is potentially a criminal misconduct in public office. 369 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:46,680 It's corruption. It suggests Epstein had a direct wire tap 370 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:49,319 into the British cabinet during a national emergency. 371 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:52,720 Speaker 1: And the political fallout from this is happening right now, 372 00:17:52,759 --> 00:17:55,680 isn't it. Mandelson isn't just some historical figure. 373 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 2: No, the shockwaves are hitting today. Mandelson has now been 374 00:17:59,039 --> 00:18:00,759 removed from the House of Law, he's out of the 375 00:18:00,839 --> 00:18:04,759 Labor Party. But it's hitting the current leadership hard too. 376 00:18:05,079 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 1: How So, the. 377 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 2: BBC correspondent Nick Urdley is calling it a political earthquake 378 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:14,079 that he thinks could actually bring down the current Prime minister. 379 00:18:14,319 --> 00:18:15,519 Speaker 1: Bring down the PM. 380 00:18:15,759 --> 00:18:19,720 Speaker 2: Why because the current Prime Minister appointed Mandelson as the 381 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:21,200 US ambassador. 382 00:18:21,279 --> 00:18:23,279 Speaker 1: Oh wow, so he gave him one of the most 383 00:18:23,319 --> 00:18:26,880 prestigious diplomatic posts in the world, after all these rumors 384 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:28,200 had been swirling for years. 385 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:32,359 Speaker 2: Precisely, it calls the Prime Minister's judgment into serious question. 386 00:18:32,799 --> 00:18:35,240 It looked like he was protecting one of the boys. 387 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:38,319 And at the same time it puts immense pressure on 388 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:41,720 Keir Starmer, the Labor leader, because Mandelson was such a 389 00:18:41,759 --> 00:18:43,920 central figure in his party's machinery. 390 00:18:44,039 --> 00:18:47,039 Speaker 1: So it stains the entire political establishment it. 391 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:49,440 Speaker 2: Does with the brush of we all knew something was 392 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:52,039 wrong and we look the other way. It just reinforces 393 00:18:52,039 --> 00:18:54,440 that idea of the web. Epstein wasn't just you know, 394 00:18:54,519 --> 00:18:58,119 hanging out with celebrities and royals. He was deeply embedded 395 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:00,160 in the actual machinery of govern. 396 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:02,519 Speaker 1: Which brings us to the other titans in this web, 397 00:19:03,039 --> 00:19:06,799 the billionaire boys club. He got names like Bill Gates, 398 00:19:07,039 --> 00:19:09,160 Elon Musk, Richard Branton. 399 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:11,960 Speaker 2: The list is a who's who of global capital. 400 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:15,039 Speaker 1: Really, let's start with Bill Gates. He's gone on record 401 00:19:15,079 --> 00:19:18,519 many times saying he regretted every minute he spent with Epstein. 402 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:21,000 He's tried to frame it as an error in judgment, 403 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:23,599 that he thought it was about philanthropy. But these new 404 00:19:23,599 --> 00:19:28,759 files reveal something, well, something bizarre and frankly nasty. 405 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:31,519 Speaker 2: It is bizarre, and it's a very specific kind of nasty. 406 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:34,319 New documents show that Epstein kept a file in which 407 00:19:34,319 --> 00:19:37,480 he accused Bill Gates of contracting a sexually transmitted infection 408 00:19:37,599 --> 00:19:38,720 from Russian girls. 409 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:43,160 Speaker 1: Just hearing the words Bill Gates, STI and Russian girls 410 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:46,160 in the same sentence is incredibly jarring. It sounds like 411 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:48,400 something out of a bad spy movie. Why would Epstein 412 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:49,960 even have a file on something like that. 413 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:53,279 Speaker 2: This is where we have to understand the concept of compromat. 414 00:19:52,839 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 1: Right, the Russian intelligence term. 415 00:19:54,519 --> 00:19:57,319 Speaker 2: It's Russian for compromising material. And we have to be 416 00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:02,400 crystal clear here. Gates completely denies this medical claim. It's 417 00:20:02,519 --> 00:20:06,119 almost certainly a fabrication. But the fact that this accusation 418 00:20:06,279 --> 00:20:10,000 exists in Epstein's files tells us everything about Epstein's tactics. 419 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:13,119 Speaker 1: So it doesn't even matter if it's true. It only 420 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:16,160 matters that Epstein had the file. It's leverage. 421 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 2: It is pure leverage. That's all it is. I know 422 00:20:19,319 --> 00:20:24,079 your secrets or I can create secrets about you. That 423 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:27,680 is an incredibly powerful currency. If Epstein calls Bill Gates 424 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:30,160 and asks for a meeting, and Gates knows Epstein has 425 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:32,720 a dossier on his private life, whether it's true or false, 426 00:20:33,039 --> 00:20:35,480 Gates is more likely to take that meeting. It's a 427 00:20:35,519 --> 00:20:36,599 mechanism of control. 428 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:39,119 Speaker 1: And then we have Elon Musk. The files mentioned inqureasing 429 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:40,079 about him intending a. 430 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:42,640 Speaker 2: Party, right though it appears he never actually went, but 431 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,279 his name is still there in the mix circling the drain, 432 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:48,680 and you see Richard Branson admitting he visited Epstein's island 433 00:20:48,759 --> 00:20:51,640 now saying he regrets the relationship. You see the Crown 434 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:55,400 Princess Metmerit of Norway, she features hundreds of times in. 435 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:57,279 Speaker 1: These files, hundreds of times. 436 00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:00,839 Speaker 2: Hundreds She's also expressed deep regret. But again, it all 437 00:21:00,839 --> 00:21:05,599 begs the same question, why why did all these incredibly powerful, 438 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:09,119 wealthy people stay in his orbit? Why do they keep 439 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:12,119 coming back to the townhouse, to the island. 440 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:15,079 Speaker 1: That's what I can't wrap my head around. The BBC 441 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:18,160 uses this term a corrosive network. They say it was 442 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:21,640 designed to confer advantage. You know, scratch my back, I'll 443 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:24,599 scratch yours. But looking at it now with hindsight, it 444 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:27,839 seems like it just destroyed everyone. It touched people like 445 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:32,759 Jess Staley, Leon Black, Ben Wegg Prosser. Their careers are torched. 446 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:35,599 Speaker 2: It was a gamble, a very high spake scamble. At 447 00:21:35,599 --> 00:21:38,240 the time, Epstein was seen as a gatekeeper. If you 448 00:21:38,279 --> 00:21:41,079 wanted funding for your tech startup, if you wanted introductions 449 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:43,200 to the global elite, you went through Jeffrey. He was 450 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:45,480 the tollbooth operator on the road to power. 451 00:21:45,559 --> 00:21:47,400 Speaker 1: That's what Andrew Bailey, the Governor of the Bank of 452 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:49,559 England said, I saw his reaction to this, and he 453 00:21:49,599 --> 00:21:51,039 seemed genuinely shaken. 454 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:53,079 Speaker 2: He did. He asked, how is it that we live 455 00:21:53,079 --> 00:21:55,079 in a society in which this happened and the cover 456 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:55,720 up happened. 457 00:21:56,079 --> 00:21:59,160 Speaker 1: That's the provocative thought of the century right there. It's 458 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:03,039 not just Epstein was a bad man, it's our society 459 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:04,200 allowed this to happen. 460 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:07,599 Speaker 2: It's a damning indictment of the culture of the elite, 461 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:11,720 a culture where moral red flags are completely ignored as 462 00:22:11,759 --> 00:22:14,920 long as the financial green lights are bright enough. They 463 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:18,440 ignored the rumors, they ignored the conviction, and let's say 464 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:20,720 it again, he was a convicted offender in two thousand 465 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:22,640 and eight. They ignored all of it because he was 466 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:23,599 useful to them. 467 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:26,720 Speaker 1: And now that usefulness is turned into a radioactive cloud 468 00:22:26,759 --> 00:22:30,960 that's poisoning everyone precisely now. Actually wading through this radioactive 469 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:34,359 cloud is a massive logistical challenge. We keep saying, three 470 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:37,279 million pages, how do you even begin to process that 471 00:22:37,319 --> 00:22:38,240 amount of information? 472 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:41,039 Speaker 2: Well, this is where the work of BBC Verify comes in, 473 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:44,160 and it's actually fascinating for anyone interested in tech. They're 474 00:22:44,279 --> 00:22:47,759 using data scientists and they're writing custom code just to 475 00:22:48,039 --> 00:22:50,160 sift through all of this unstructured data. 476 00:22:50,319 --> 00:22:52,200 Speaker 1: It's not like a need Excel spreadsheet then. 477 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:55,079 Speaker 2: Not at all. It's a complete mess of emails, scan 478 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:59,200 handwritten notes, PDFs, loose files. They are essentially having to 479 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:00,599 build a search engine for hell. 480 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:06,200 Speaker 1: And the video problem seems particularly haunting. Two thousand videos 481 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:08,079 with no metadata. 482 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:12,720 Speaker 2: Think about that, no dates, no locations, just two thousand 483 00:23:12,839 --> 00:23:16,559 video files, and the ethical nightmare of trying to report 484 00:23:16,599 --> 00:23:19,680 on them is immense. The BBC notes they have to 485 00:23:19,759 --> 00:23:23,200 use the careful term young females because in many cases 486 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:26,079 they genuinely cannot tell if the person on screen is 487 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:30,079 a woman or an underage girl. The resolution, the context, 488 00:23:30,079 --> 00:23:30,920 it's all missing. 489 00:23:31,079 --> 00:23:33,680 Speaker 1: That just makes your skin crawl, the ambiguity of it. 490 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:36,359 It means there are potentially crimes being captured on video 491 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:38,960 that we can't even properly name because we don't know 492 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:39,880 the age of the victim. 493 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:42,559 Speaker 2: And in this vacuum of clear information, we are seeing 494 00:23:42,559 --> 00:23:45,240 a disinformation war erupt. This is the other side of 495 00:23:45,279 --> 00:23:46,119 the tech one, right. 496 00:23:46,039 --> 00:23:48,200 Speaker 1: The fake files. I've seen some of these circulating online, 497 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,160 fake emails that are attributed to Elon Musk, fake AI 498 00:23:51,279 --> 00:23:53,200 photos of the NYC mayor at parties. 499 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:55,359 Speaker 2: This is the danger of the modern age. You have 500 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:59,279 this massive, chaotic release of real horrifying documents, and then 501 00:23:59,319 --> 00:24:01,920 bad actors, whether it's for political gain or just to 502 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:05,359 so chaos, are slipping fake documents into the stream. 503 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:06,920 Speaker 1: It's so easy to do now. 504 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:10,440 Speaker 2: It is. They use AI to generate a fake email, 505 00:24:10,799 --> 00:24:12,559 stamp it with the right kind of date, and just 506 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:16,720 drop it into a forum. BBC verifies working overtime to 507 00:24:16,759 --> 00:24:19,519 debunk them, but some of these fakes get millions of 508 00:24:19,599 --> 00:24:20,960 views before they're ever caught. 509 00:24:21,079 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 1: It's the perfect storm, isn't it. You have these real 510 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:28,480 horrific truths mixed in with AI generated lies. It makes 511 00:24:28,559 --> 00:24:31,799 finding the actual truth so much harder for the average person. 512 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:32,880 It creates a. 513 00:24:32,759 --> 00:24:35,720 Speaker 2: Fog of war, and it allows the guilty to hide. 514 00:24:35,799 --> 00:24:39,039 If everything is questionable, then nothing is proven. Someone can say, oh, 515 00:24:39,079 --> 00:24:41,880 that damning email about me, that's probably one of the fakes. 516 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,720 It muddies the waters intentionally. It's a tactic called censorship 517 00:24:45,759 --> 00:24:46,319 through noise. 518 00:24:46,559 --> 00:24:49,680 Speaker 1: Meanwhile, back in the US, the political standoff is just 519 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,200 getting uglier. You have Trump, who resisted the release at first, 520 00:24:53,559 --> 00:24:56,000 now just saying everyone should move on. Then you have 521 00:24:56,039 --> 00:24:59,240 the Clintons scrambling they're due to give evidence to Congress 522 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:00,720 to avoid being held than contempt. 523 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:04,519 Speaker 2: It's a complete circus. But notice who is conspicuously missing 524 00:25:04,519 --> 00:25:07,400 from that list of people taking action. The Department of Justice, 525 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:11,119 the very people who botched the redaction of the survivor names. 526 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,559 They're saying they're done. The DOJ says the case is 527 00:25:14,599 --> 00:25:17,799 closed regarding any new prosecutions. 528 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:19,480 Speaker 1: And that is baffling to me. How can they say that. 529 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:23,319 The DOJ says we're done. But Congress is the only 530 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:27,119 government body still investigating this and there are still missing 531 00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:27,759 files right. 532 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,599 Speaker 2: Yes, the BBC mentions that some material was held back, 533 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:35,680 specifically child pornography and images of death, which is understandable 534 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,680 and necessary, of course, but they also mentioned that files 535 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,440 of a medical nature and a personal nature remain a 536 00:25:41,519 --> 00:25:44,240 question mark. What is in those files? Who is being 537 00:25:44,279 --> 00:25:47,319 protected by those reactions? Are those the files that would 538 00:25:47,319 --> 00:25:48,839 bring down even more titans? 539 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 1: We just don't know, And that really brings us to 540 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:52,839 the end of our threads for today. We've looked at 541 00:25:52,839 --> 00:25:55,680 the victims crying out for peace. We've looked at the 542 00:25:55,759 --> 00:25:58,839 royals stripping away their own dignity. We've looked at the 543 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:03,559 politicians trading state secrets, and the billionaires, all caught in 544 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:05,000 this web of their own making. 545 00:26:05,279 --> 00:26:08,960 Speaker 2: And the common thread, the single strm that ties every 546 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:12,640 single one of them together, is impunity. For decades, there 547 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:14,559 were simply no consequence for any of us. 548 00:26:14,519 --> 00:26:17,200 Speaker 1: Until now, or I mean not even now. 549 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:21,119 Speaker 2: That's the deep worry, isn't it. Jeffrey Epstein didn't build 550 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:24,960 this network alone. It required the complicity, the silence, and 551 00:26:25,039 --> 00:26:27,599 in some cases the active participation of some of the 552 00:26:27,599 --> 00:26:30,720 most powerful people in the United States and the United Kingdom. 553 00:26:31,279 --> 00:26:34,240 And yet who is actually in handcuffs today? 554 00:26:34,519 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 1: That is the question I want to leave all of 555 00:26:36,039 --> 00:26:38,160 you with. The Department of Justice says the case is 556 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:42,000 closed for new prosecutions. But given everything we've just discussed, 557 00:26:42,279 --> 00:26:45,960 Lord Mandelssohn allegedly leaking market data during a global crisis, 558 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:49,519 the royal involvement, the sheer, undeniable scale of the abuse, 559 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:51,079 does that sound like justice to you? 560 00:26:51,319 --> 00:26:54,319 Speaker 2: Does a closed case really look like three million pages 561 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:55,400 of unanswered. 562 00:26:55,039 --> 00:26:57,519 Speaker 1: Questions we want to hear from you with a DOJ 563 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:00,680 stepping back, but Congress and the UK parliaments digging in, 564 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,000 do you believe we will ever see another powerful person 565 00:27:04,039 --> 00:27:07,960 in handcuffs for this, or has the statute of limitations 566 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,200 on rich and powerful people simply run out. 567 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:12,079 Speaker 2: It's a question that really defines our era. 568 00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:15,680 Speaker 1: I think tell us your stance in the comments. We 569 00:27:15,759 --> 00:27:18,359 read all of them. This has been thrilling threads. I'm 570 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:18,839 your hosts. 571 00:27:18,839 --> 00:27:19,799 Speaker 2: I know I'm the expert. 572 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:20,599 Speaker 1: Signing off.