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<v Speaker 1>Bianantonma got boga on the haardnir, the holla, the hayman A.

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<v Speaker 1>He call ah ersuena as Lance Ladani detained, Nudovshu will

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<v Speaker 1>kill Nagatarhu La Hula schamparods on udos as Lance is

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<v Speaker 1>phaser Latgun's throw, Tasha Tapa Seranashka august nav vat is

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<v Speaker 1>FuGO more trik hi. A punk ie is called relala

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<v Speaker 1>a on tudoros or Raslanza. If we real this Naharin,

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<v Speaker 1>oh hey.

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<v Speaker 2>It's the lump of gum you've been chewing for two

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<v Speaker 2>hundred and twenty five miles of a road trip, Ali Ward.

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<v Speaker 2>This is an episode about medical mysteries and science fiction

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<v Speaker 2>level microscopic drama and why you should get excited about

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<v Speaker 2>something that is hiding in the crypts of your guts.

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<v Speaker 2>So I've known this guest for years. I've known of

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<v Speaker 2>them for years and they have a super loyal following

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<v Speaker 2>in the science communication field. They are also a PhD neuroscientist,

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<v Speaker 2>their doctor of University of Toronto studying stem cells and

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<v Speaker 2>what are they building in our brains. So this guest

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<v Speaker 2>has been named one of Toronto Life's Top fifty most

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<v Speaker 2>influential people, and as a person, I was so genuinely

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<v Speaker 2>excited to meet them during this interview. Before we get

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<v Speaker 2>to it, thank you to everyone who's submitted questions for

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<v Speaker 2>them via Patreon dot com slash Ologies, where you can

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<v Speaker 2>join for a dollar a month and lob questions at

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<v Speaker 2>our guests. Thank you to everyone wearing items from ologiesmerch

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<v Speaker 2>dot com on your body. Thanks also to everyone who

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<v Speaker 2>rates and subscribes. It's bonkers to say, but we are

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<v Speaker 2>the number one science podcast right now, and I started

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<v Speaker 2>this thing in twenty seventeen with like two hundred dollars

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<v Speaker 2>and recording voiceover in my closet into a pile of

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<v Speaker 2>dirty laundry. So thanks for the reviews and ratings. They

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<v Speaker 2>really keep us up there, and I read everyone such

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<v Speaker 2>as this one left this week by the Curious Hound,

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<v Speaker 2>who started listening four years ago, went back to school

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<v Speaker 2>and wrote a review that said I also took the

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<v Speaker 2>texture crush to heart and now we are married. So anyway,

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<v Speaker 2>thanks pod Dad for encouraging us to be our most

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<v Speaker 2>genuine selves and explore the awesome world around us. Thank

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<v Speaker 2>you the Curious Hound. Okay, so shake out your shoulders,

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<v Speaker 2>twist your head on straight, and let's take a deep

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<v Speaker 2>dive into the funny little bubbles that make us who

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<v Speaker 2>we are as we chat about stem cells, science, history,

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<v Speaker 2>conference drama, immortality, sports, injuries, scams, ethical issues, geographical trends

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<v Speaker 2>in medical research, rodents, spleens, your brain, multiple sclerosis, cancer therapies,

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<v Speaker 2>face creams oprah rumors, fertility advances, and even weirdly, shipbuilding

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<v Speaker 2>with neuroscientists, science communicator and stem cell biologist doctor Samantha

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<v Speaker 2>Yamin aka science Sam. I feel like I have seen

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<v Speaker 2>so many hours of your face and you're amazing.

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<v Speaker 3>Sorry, no, you're the best.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, You're someone who I recommend everyone else follows. So

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<v Speaker 2>you may have seen her wonderful face a lot over

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<v Speaker 2>the last three years, explaining COVID news and vaccine info

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<v Speaker 2>into smelling myths as this newly minted PhD gain a

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<v Speaker 2>wide audience as a relatable and to the point science communicator.

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<v Speaker 2>And how long have you been doctor ooh?

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<v Speaker 3>Since twenty nineteen in fact, and I had to go

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<v Speaker 3>back and I pulled out my thesis to like review

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<v Speaker 3>and make sure I wasn't forgetting what it is I did.

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<v Speaker 3>Turns out I didn't forget, but just in case I did,

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<v Speaker 3>some homework.

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<v Speaker 2>Do you remember the title of your dissertation?

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<v Speaker 3>Oh yeah, States and fates, I think of stem cells.

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<v Speaker 3>I haven't here. Oh no, it's a way longer than that.

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<v Speaker 3>I tried states and fates of primitive neural stem cells

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<v Speaker 3>in the mammalian brain. Amazing the mouthful.

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<v Speaker 2>There's debate recently on whether or not you should have

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<v Speaker 2>a catchy title at the front of your dissertation. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>all in favor.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh yeah, I saw that. It's another another Twitter thing

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<v Speaker 3>where people are trying to say, like, take the pop

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<v Speaker 3>culture references out. I turned to the first chapter of

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<v Speaker 3>my thesis and I quoted Maya Angelou and my two

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<v Speaker 3>favorite neuroscientists. So I think it's clear where I stand.

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<v Speaker 2>Were you always interested in science? Were you interested in mammals?

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<v Speaker 2>Were you interested in microscopy? What got you hooked in

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<v Speaker 2>high school?

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<v Speaker 3>I loved science from a young age. I loved science.

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<v Speaker 3>I was always doing experiments around the house, but they

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<v Speaker 3>were kind of they're really interesting experiments. I thought I

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<v Speaker 3>invented plastic ones because I would mix all these things together,

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<v Speaker 3>maybe a little dangerous in hindsight. I would like mix

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<v Speaker 3>things from the kitchen and from the bathroom together my

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<v Speaker 3>mom's perfumes, and I would like make new li q

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<v Speaker 3>and then I would I put it in the freezer

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<v Speaker 3>once and one time when I took it out a

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<v Speaker 3>day later, there was a plastic film on top, and

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<v Speaker 3>I was like, wow, I invented a new form of plastic,

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<v Speaker 3>Like this is so good for the earth. And then

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<v Speaker 3>I realized that the jars lid just had a plastic

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<v Speaker 3>film that fell. So it's a good early lesson fail fast,

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<v Speaker 3>fail hard. But I hated biology in high school. It

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<v Speaker 3>was it was so like memorization based. I loved chemistry.

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<v Speaker 3>And then first year university changed that real quick, and

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<v Speaker 3>I realized biology is where my heart is.

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<v Speaker 2>And you are a Canadian, yes, correct, so you were

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<v Speaker 2>raised with the gift of the metric system, so you're

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<v Speaker 2>already ten steps ahead.

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<v Speaker 3>Honestly, it is so hard. What is fahrenheit?

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<v Speaker 2>Why we don't even know? It's so embarrassing. But when

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<v Speaker 2>it came down to going to grad school versus just

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<v Speaker 2>your undergrad when did you decide to make that step

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<v Speaker 2>into more degrees and more specialized degrees.

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<v Speaker 3>I really wanted to do research before, definitely before I

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<v Speaker 3>knew what research was, so I just wanted to do

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<v Speaker 3>research because to me that was exciting. And I ended

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<v Speaker 3>up staying in Toronto, where I did my undergrad for

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<v Speaker 3>grad school for like logistic reasons and then also because

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<v Speaker 3>it's a really great place for my field of study.

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<v Speaker 3>In Canada has such a long history of stem cell

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<v Speaker 3>research and really cool neuroscience research, and so it ended

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<v Speaker 3>up working out. But I won't say that I was

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<v Speaker 3>clever enough to know all that at the time.

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<v Speaker 2>Why does Canada have such a great history of stem

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<v Speaker 2>cell research? What's up there?

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<v Speaker 3>We have Tillan McCullough here, who were one of the

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<v Speaker 3>first people to there's debate, but as a Canadian, I

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<v Speaker 3>have to say it was them. They were the first

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<v Speaker 3>to identify properties of stem cells and then specifically in

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<v Speaker 3>the brain. For years, people didn't think that in the

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<v Speaker 3>adult brain there were any new cells being formed. And

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<v Speaker 3>one of the first or the first research to show

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<v Speaker 3>it in the mouse brain they were Canadian in Alberta,

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<v Speaker 3>and then in the labra I ended up doing my PhD,

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<v Speaker 3>ended up finding where in the brain those stem cells

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<v Speaker 3>are in nineteen ninety four. And so not only does

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<v Speaker 3>Canada have this stem cell legacy, but also the labra

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<v Speaker 3>I got to do my PhD had this huge legacy

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<v Speaker 3>in the field.

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<v Speaker 2>Wow, I didn't realize that about Canada. So just a

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<v Speaker 2>quick aside on Till and mcculluch. So these are two guys,

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<v Speaker 2>James Edgar Till being a biophysicist from rural Saskatchewan and

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<v Speaker 2>Ernest McCulloch, a cell biologist from Toronto, and the two

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<v Speaker 2>of them collaborated on some experiments that involved injecting bone

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<v Speaker 2>marrow cells into mice who had been exposed to heavy

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<v Speaker 2>doses of radiation in part to understand the biological effects

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<v Speaker 2>of atomic warfare. Now, a few weeks after some mice

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<v Speaker 2>got those bone marrow injections, little spleen nodules popped up

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<v Speaker 2>and those cells split off to make red blood cells

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<v Speaker 2>and white blood cells or platelets, and their resulting paper,

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<v Speaker 2>psychological demonstration of the clonal nature of spleen colonies derived

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<v Speaker 2>from transplanted mouse marrow cells in the journal Nature. Doctor

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<v Speaker 2>Jim Till is surviving. He's ninety one right now, and

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<v Speaker 2>it's bonkers to think Toronto residents may have just stood

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<v Speaker 2>next to him in line at the drug store or

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<v Speaker 2>passed him on a walk Like living legends whose work

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<v Speaker 2>in stem cells differentiated into all of these life saving

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<v Speaker 2>medical fields. So if you'll have to explain to someone

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<v Speaker 2>at like a family function or at a dinner party,

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<v Speaker 2>like what is a stem cell, where do you even start?

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<v Speaker 3>Stem cells are the coolest cells that there are. They

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<v Speaker 3>get their name stem because they're the cells from which

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<v Speaker 3>other cells stem. I'm with you. So far, we have

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<v Speaker 3>like two key properties for stem cells. They can make

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<v Speaker 3>other cells and they can make copies of themselves, which

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<v Speaker 3>is really really unique for cells in the body. So

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<v Speaker 3>they're not a mature cell type. They're an immature cell type,

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<v Speaker 3>and other cell type stem from them. The better way

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<v Speaker 3>of explaining it is that if you picture a family tree,

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<v Speaker 3>stem cells are like the gramma from which everything arises.

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<v Speaker 3>And so that's why it's cool to study stem cells

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<v Speaker 3>because it turns out almost every tissue has a stem

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<v Speaker 3>cell and that's where all the cells from that tissue

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<v Speaker 3>come from.

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<v Speaker 2>And there are different types of stem cell or is

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<v Speaker 2>there one stem cell, and that all can kind of

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<v Speaker 2>bloom out to different things.

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<v Speaker 3>Part of why stem cells are hard to define is

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<v Speaker 3>because there are many different types. You have stem cells

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<v Speaker 3>in the early embryo that give rise to the different

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<v Speaker 3>parts of that developing embryo. Fertilized egg itself is like

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<v Speaker 3>the ultimate stem cell because it's something that can make

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<v Speaker 3>any cell in the body plus the placenta, so it

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<v Speaker 3>can make everything you need to make an embryo plus

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<v Speaker 3>the supporting things like the placenta. So the ultimate stem

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<v Speaker 3>cell is the fertilized egg. Then you have different stem

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<v Speaker 3>cells early on that can make any cell in the body.

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<v Speaker 3>They're pluri potent, plury like plural, they can make many things.

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<v Speaker 3>And then you get, especially in adulthood, in a mature

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<v Speaker 3>body and you and I, there are these more specialized

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<v Speaker 3>stem cells called multipotent stem cells or tissue specific ones.

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<v Speaker 3>So essentially, like in the brain, there are brain stem

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<v Speaker 3>cells or neural stem cells. Those are just able to

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<v Speaker 3>make the cells of the brain, and then you have

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<v Speaker 3>separate ones in the blood. They only make blood, but

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<v Speaker 3>they can make any cell in the blood, which makes

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<v Speaker 3>them really unique. Cells. In the skin, skin stem cells,

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<v Speaker 3>they can just make cells you need for the skin,

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<v Speaker 3>so they're kind of confined to their tissue.

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<v Speaker 2>So to recap pluripotent stem cells can turn into all

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<v Speaker 2>cell types in your bod, but multipotent stem cells can

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<v Speaker 2>become different cells only within the same lineage or tissue type.

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<v Speaker 2>Now on either ends of those. Even more flexible than

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<v Speaker 2>pluripotent ones are the totipotent stem cells, and those exist

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<v Speaker 2>in embryonic tissue and they can turn into over two

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<v Speaker 2>hundred different kinds of developing tissue. And then less flex

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<v Speaker 2>than pluripotent and multipotent are stem cells called unipotent, like

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<v Speaker 2>some skin stem cells that are capable of self renewal

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<v Speaker 2>into the same type of cell. So in order it

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<v Speaker 2>goes totopotent, pleuripotent, multipotent, and unipotent. But back in the

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<v Speaker 2>early nineteen sixties when those spleen colonies were forming after

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<v Speaker 2>bone marrow injections, the field had yet to know of

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<v Speaker 2>all of this. It was just the beginning of a

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<v Speaker 2>brand new era. And when the discovery came down, how

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<v Speaker 2>did they know just looking from a microscope or from

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<v Speaker 2>an experiment that these were stem cells, because before there

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<v Speaker 2>was no knowledge of them, right.

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<v Speaker 3>Mm hm, Well was interesting what piqued their interests. They

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<v Speaker 3>weren't looking for stem cells, but what they found was

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<v Speaker 3>that if you took some certain parts of cells in

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<v Speaker 3>these nodules in a mouse, I think it was a

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<v Speaker 3>cancer model of a mouse. They found that if you

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<v Speaker 3>transplanted them on, they would make more colonies and more colonies,

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<v Speaker 3>so they didn't call them stem cells at first. They

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<v Speaker 3>called them colony forming units because they found that from

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<v Speaker 3>one you'd get xently more cells and clumps of cells forming.

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<v Speaker 2>And this again was our friends Till and McCulloch, and

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<v Speaker 2>they found that these spleen colonies weren't easy to come by.

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<v Speaker 2>Roughly ten thousand bone marrow cells yielded one nodule, but

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<v Speaker 2>the bigger the injection, the more of these then called

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<v Speaker 2>spleen colony nodules popped up. And of course this is

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<v Speaker 2>interesting because typically cells just don't do this unless they're

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<v Speaker 2>stem cells.

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<v Speaker 3>If you just took a cell from my brain, it

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<v Speaker 3>wouldn't really divide and it certainly wouldn't make copies of

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<v Speaker 3>itself unless you happen to get a stem cell. Then

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<v Speaker 3>it would start to propagate and make more and more

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<v Speaker 3>and more.

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<v Speaker 2>Are there places in our bodies or in any bodies

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<v Speaker 2>that are where stem cells hang out or originate? Like

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<v Speaker 2>do they find them in certain parts of the bone

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<v Speaker 2>or certain parts of the brain or whatever.

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<v Speaker 3>Absolutely there are these stem cell niches or are you

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<v Speaker 3>a person that says niche not niche.

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<v Speaker 2>It depends on the situation. Okay, Like if I'm around

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<v Speaker 2>fancy people, I say niche.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh No, on my fancy I say niche.

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<v Speaker 2>I think I'm a stem cell.

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<v Speaker 3>I go either way undefined. Yeah, So there are stem

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<v Speaker 3>cell niches, and in the brain they hang out near

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<v Speaker 3>the ventricles. These are these holes in your brain where

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<v Speaker 3>special nutrient rich fluid flows, and so the stem cells

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<v Speaker 3>are quite greedy. They want all those nutrients, so they

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<v Speaker 3>hang out around there. And in the stem cells for

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<v Speaker 3>the blood, for example, they're deep in the bone marrow

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<v Speaker 3>because again they're usually close to where you'll have blood vessels.

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<v Speaker 3>Because the blood is delivering all those great nutrients. They're

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<v Speaker 3>working pretty hard. They're making a whole family of cells,

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<v Speaker 3>so they want to have access to those nutrients. Same

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<v Speaker 3>thing in the gut. The gut's really cool because if

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<v Speaker 3>you look close at a gut, it has all these

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<v Speaker 3>peaks and valleys. It's like this roughly looking structure, and

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<v Speaker 3>the stem cells sit at the very lowest part in

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<v Speaker 3>those valleys, the crypt and then all the other cells

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<v Speaker 3>butt off from there and they come out like a

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<v Speaker 3>U shape going up to that little ruffle oo.

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<v Speaker 2>So I found a bit more about this in a

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<v Speaker 2>twenty eighteen paper that explained constant tissue replenishment is fueled

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<v Speaker 2>by continuously dividing stem cells that reside at the bottom

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<v Speaker 2>of intestinal crips, and it says intestinal stem cells compete

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<v Speaker 2>for limited niche space and therefore the ability to regain

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<v Speaker 2>or retain stemness. And those cells that are unable to

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<v Speaker 2>retain stemness, they differentiate into one of six different mature

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<v Speaker 2>cell types, and then they move upwards up in the

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<v Speaker 2>gut where they're finally shed into the intestinal lumin after

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<v Speaker 2>three or five days. So the stem cell keeps dividing,

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<v Speaker 2>and the ones that butt off and don't stay stem

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<v Speaker 2>cells become intestinal cells and they do their job and

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<v Speaker 2>then you poop them out, and then the ones that

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<v Speaker 2>stay stem cells stay in those cryps. And if you

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<v Speaker 2>want to read this study, be my guest. It is

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<v Speaker 2>titled Tales from the crypt New Insights into Intestinal stem Cells.

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<v Speaker 2>But anyway, your gut folds right now are just a

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<v Speaker 2>hot bed of stem cell action. And do stem cells

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<v Speaker 2>ever bite the dust without becoming something else? Are there

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<v Speaker 2>stem cells that are like they didn't really need me,

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<v Speaker 2>so I'm just gonna die.

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<v Speaker 3>It's a great it's a great question. I'm laughing because

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<v Speaker 3>it becomes a weird philosophical question. If you have a

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<v Speaker 3>cell that's your stem cell, and it divides into two,

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<v Speaker 3>which one was the original?

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<v Speaker 2>Right? Yeah?

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<v Speaker 3>And so sometimes those divisions, a stem cell can divide

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<v Speaker 3>and make two stem cells, or it can divide, leave

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<v Speaker 3>off with one stem cell and then another one becomes

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<v Speaker 3>a daughter cell and goes off to be a red

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<v Speaker 3>blood cell or whatever. So it kind of becomes hard

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<v Speaker 3>in that sense of like, well did it ever die?

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<v Speaker 3>Because it's still the progeny. And this is why stem

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<v Speaker 3>cell biologists are like deep down scientists who wish they

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<v Speaker 3>were philosophers, because we are always debating. It's like the

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<v Speaker 3>Ship of Theseus, where you're like, at what part is

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<v Speaker 3>it a new cell or the same cell?

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, these are the big questions of life. I

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<v Speaker 2>had to look this up because Ship of Theseus was

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<v Speaker 2>just a new combination of words for me. And it's

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00:16:15.240 --> 00:16:18.600
<v Speaker 2>a paradox or a thought experiment that's a few thousand

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<v Speaker 2>years old at least, and it's about a ship. And

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<v Speaker 2>if that ship is little by little replaced with new parts,

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<v Speaker 2>is it the same ship? And then philosopher Thomas Hobbs

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<v Speaker 2>was also pondering this likely because they didn't have phones

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<v Speaker 2>to scroll on, and Hobbes added that if you took

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<v Speaker 2>all the old boards from the original ship and then

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00:16:40.200 --> 00:16:43.639
<v Speaker 2>you built a different ship, which is the ship And

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<v Speaker 2>he said, the new ship retains form, but the old

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<v Speaker 2>one retains matter. Anyway, stem cell biologists think about this stuff,

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00:16:51.159 --> 00:16:54.399
<v Speaker 2>and there's probably a lovely corner of TikTok where it

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00:16:54.600 --> 00:16:58.159
<v Speaker 2>remains hotly debated, which sounds like way better content than

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00:16:58.759 --> 00:17:02.360
<v Speaker 2>husbands and wives filming obviously staged pranks on each other.

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<v Speaker 2>Get out of my algorithm with that shit. Anyway, stem cells,

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<v Speaker 2>and do they look different? Can you look at a

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<v Speaker 2>cell and say, oh, it's got a thicker wall, it's

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<v Speaker 2>a stem cell, or it's purple, like how do you know?

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<v Speaker 3>Well, there's this whole thing where when a cell divides,

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<v Speaker 3>it's also spreading some of the cytoplasm, some of like

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<v Speaker 3>the liquidy juice of the cell, so to speak. And

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00:17:24.720 --> 00:17:27.440
<v Speaker 3>so some people will look like, well, did the cell

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<v Speaker 3>equally segregate that juice? Like does one have all the

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00:17:30.359 --> 00:17:33.039
<v Speaker 3>old stuff and the other daughter cell has all the

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00:17:33.079 --> 00:17:36.319
<v Speaker 3>new stuff. Or you make copies of DNA, does the

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<v Speaker 3>stem cell retain the original copies or do they go

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<v Speaker 3>have these on the new versus old strands of DNA.

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<v Speaker 3>This is called the immortal strand hypothesis. So people try

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<v Speaker 3>to track like what's the original cell like that? And

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<v Speaker 3>they also try really hard to define what a stem

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<v Speaker 3>cell looks like. And it's different for each type of

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<v Speaker 3>stem cell throughout the body, but there are usually these

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<v Speaker 3>key markers, ideas on the surface of the cell on

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<v Speaker 3>the outside, it's like protein coat around its fatty lipid

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00:18:04.640 --> 00:18:07.960
<v Speaker 3>membrane that help us to capture stem cells when we're

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<v Speaker 3>studying them. But it can be hard because again, when

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<v Speaker 3>these cells that they divide into look kind of similar,

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00:18:14.480 --> 00:18:16.759
<v Speaker 3>where do you draw the line which one was the original?

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<v Speaker 3>And it ends up getting really hard to purify stem

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<v Speaker 3>cells from their most immediate progeny.

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00:18:21.920 --> 00:18:25.079
<v Speaker 2>And what excites you about stem cells? Do you love

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00:18:25.119 --> 00:18:27.119
<v Speaker 2>stem cells as a whole and they happen to be

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00:18:27.680 --> 00:18:29.559
<v Speaker 2>you happen to kind of course through and end up

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00:18:29.599 --> 00:18:33.319
<v Speaker 2>in neuronal stem cells or was there something about the

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<v Speaker 2>brain's regeneration that really hooked you.

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<v Speaker 3>I never planned to become a stem cell biologist. I

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00:18:39.920 --> 00:18:43.359
<v Speaker 3>was always fascinated in the brain and what makes us

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<v Speaker 3>us and I started my research journey studying nerge generative diseases,

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<v Speaker 3>and my uncle in particular, has Parkinson's, so I was

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<v Speaker 3>really passionate about trying to understand Parkinson's disease what happens

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<v Speaker 3>when we lose brain cells. But then I wanted something

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<v Speaker 3>with some optimism, so I just flipped to the opposite

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<v Speaker 3>of well, how do we make new brain cells? Because

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<v Speaker 3>I want solutions, And that took me to this field

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00:19:06.880 --> 00:19:10.559
<v Speaker 3>of regeneration, and from there it just became fascinating to

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<v Speaker 3>try to understand how does a complex structure like your

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<v Speaker 3>brain form. We have one hundred and seventy one billion

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<v Speaker 3>cells in your brain. That's more cells in your brain

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<v Speaker 3>right now than seconds in like fifty four hundred years.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh my god, right, yeah, how.

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<v Speaker 3>Does that form? And they all look different, not all

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<v Speaker 3>of them, but you have like hundreds of different cell types.

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<v Speaker 3>They have these really intricate structures. They're beautiful. How do

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00:19:35.680 --> 00:19:38.519
<v Speaker 3>they become so different? How do they form? And so

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<v Speaker 3>I stumbled into stem cell biology by trying to understand

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<v Speaker 3>how does our brain form? To begin with and how

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<v Speaker 3>might we use those same concepts to regenerate the brain

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<v Speaker 3>when you've seen conditions where you have loss of cells.

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<v Speaker 2>And this is a huge revelation probably for some people

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<v Speaker 2>who learned in school that your brain is your brain.

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00:19:58.799 --> 00:20:01.240
<v Speaker 2>You've got dealt the cards good, No one, that is it.

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<v Speaker 2>There is no backup reserve. That is what I was

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<v Speaker 2>taught in school, is like, brain cannot regenerate itself. And

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<v Speaker 2>then this discovery that like, oh shit, yes it can.

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<v Speaker 2>How did that change neuroscience and research? Was that a

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<v Speaker 2>huge deal? Do people talk about that like a massive event?

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<v Speaker 3>The tricky thing is that some cells of the brain

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<v Speaker 3>can regenerate, and there's still a ton of debate as

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<v Speaker 3>to which cells in the human brain can regenerate, but

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<v Speaker 3>not all of them. So I'm just going to say

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<v Speaker 3>that with the caveat of like, you know, I used

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<v Speaker 3>to play soccer and be really scared about heading the

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<v Speaker 3>ball because I didn't want to lose brain cells. Maybe

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00:20:34.759 --> 00:20:39.240
<v Speaker 3>still be a little cautious about that. Yeah, But the

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<v Speaker 3>discovery of stem cells in the brain was a really

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<v Speaker 3>contentious one. In the nineteen sixties, someone named Joseph Altman.

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<v Speaker 3>He was doing studies with radioactive molecules and found that

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<v Speaker 3>there were new cells incorporating this radio active marker.

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<v Speaker 2>So doctor Joseph Altman injected a radioactive form of thymidine

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<v Speaker 2>intracranially into rodent to track new DNA formation in neurogenesis,

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00:21:03.480 --> 00:21:06.359
<v Speaker 2>and was surprised to see the radioactive tracer in new

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00:21:06.440 --> 00:21:09.559
<v Speaker 2>cells in the old factory bulb and part of the hippocampus.

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<v Speaker 2>And he even published a study in nineteen sixty two

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<v Speaker 2>titled are new neurons formed in the brains of adult mammals?

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00:21:16.640 --> 00:21:19.079
<v Speaker 2>And it ended with a question mark which kind of

389
00:21:19.160 --> 00:21:21.400
<v Speaker 2>just hung in the air for years.

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00:21:21.359 --> 00:21:23.400
<v Speaker 3>And he said, you know, there must be new cells

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00:21:23.400 --> 00:21:26.400
<v Speaker 3>being made in the adult brain. No one believed him

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00:21:26.759 --> 00:21:31.079
<v Speaker 3>for decades. In the eighties, some people studying birds started

393
00:21:31.119 --> 00:21:33.279
<v Speaker 3>to say, hey, actually, I think this could be true

394
00:21:33.319 --> 00:21:36.359
<v Speaker 3>in birds. And it wasn't until the early nineties when

395
00:21:36.359 --> 00:21:38.720
<v Speaker 3>people finally said, hey, you know what looks like there

396
00:21:38.720 --> 00:21:41.799
<v Speaker 3>are some cells in the brain with like regenerative properties.

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<v Speaker 3>Maybe Altman was right.

398
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<v Speaker 2>Was he alive? I hope he was alive.

399
00:21:46.720 --> 00:21:49.279
<v Speaker 3>He was, and that sucks he went years.

400
00:21:50.039 --> 00:21:52.200
<v Speaker 2>I wonder what kind of day he had. If I

401
00:21:52.240 --> 00:21:54.759
<v Speaker 2>were him, I would go nuts I would get in

402
00:21:54.920 --> 00:21:57.799
<v Speaker 2>my bathing suit. I would run around with a bullhorn.

403
00:21:58.200 --> 00:22:00.640
<v Speaker 2>I would get as much cold Stone creamery as I wanted.

404
00:22:00.799 --> 00:22:04.960
<v Speaker 2>I would yell in people's face like strangers. I told you,

405
00:22:05.079 --> 00:22:07.680
<v Speaker 2>I told you, Like, Wow, what a day. We got

406
00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:09.279
<v Speaker 2>to check in on him, see how he's doing.

407
00:22:10.039 --> 00:22:13.079
<v Speaker 3>Definitely a little bit of bitterness. I mean, when you've

408
00:22:13.119 --> 00:22:15.000
<v Speaker 3>known something for years and I will say, like, this

409
00:22:15.079 --> 00:22:17.480
<v Speaker 3>is the rare case where it's not like people didn't

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00:22:17.519 --> 00:22:20.119
<v Speaker 3>believe him because they're like silencing him or something. It

411
00:22:20.160 --> 00:22:23.119
<v Speaker 3>was just it was just so out of character. It

412
00:22:23.200 --> 00:22:25.480
<v Speaker 3>had never been seen before. There were other ways to

413
00:22:25.519 --> 00:22:28.720
<v Speaker 3>explain his findings, and we needed a new way of

414
00:22:28.720 --> 00:22:31.839
<v Speaker 3>corroborating this finding. And that's just how the science works.

415
00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:36.119
<v Speaker 3>So wasn't anything against him. But it sucks.

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00:22:36.440 --> 00:22:39.279
<v Speaker 2>But I'm glad that he got to see it, and

417
00:22:39.559 --> 00:22:42.839
<v Speaker 2>I'm glad that it turned out that his hunch was correct.

418
00:22:43.039 --> 00:22:46.119
<v Speaker 2>And if you want all of the hottest gossip on

419
00:22:46.200 --> 00:22:49.720
<v Speaker 2>this beanie baby era of stem cell research, feel free

420
00:22:49.759 --> 00:22:52.279
<v Speaker 2>to dive into the juicy details in the book Aron

421
00:22:52.359 --> 00:22:56.440
<v Speaker 2>CEO's Seahorse and the Search for Memory and Consciousness, which

422
00:22:56.640 --> 00:23:00.319
<v Speaker 2>describes matters quote coming to a head at a sideience

423
00:23:00.359 --> 00:23:04.680
<v Speaker 2>conference where one long time naysayer of neuronal stem cells

424
00:23:04.960 --> 00:23:09.039
<v Speaker 2>kept metaphorically shitting on the evidence of other scientists into

425
00:23:09.160 --> 00:23:13.480
<v Speaker 2>one Princeton researcher, doctor Elizabeth Gould, got deep in the

426
00:23:13.519 --> 00:23:16.920
<v Speaker 2>stacks of a university library and found Joseph Altman's nineteen

427
00:23:16.920 --> 00:23:19.559
<v Speaker 2>sixty two paper, which was from the year she was born,

428
00:23:20.119 --> 00:23:23.480
<v Speaker 2>and by nineteen ninety nine, her work bringing Altman's work

429
00:23:23.480 --> 00:23:27.000
<v Speaker 2>to the surface caused the main naysayer all these years

430
00:23:27.119 --> 00:23:30.519
<v Speaker 2>to admit that he was wrong, and thus neuronal stem

431
00:23:30.599 --> 00:23:33.079
<v Speaker 2>cell science finally got its due. What parts of our

432
00:23:33.119 --> 00:23:35.960
<v Speaker 2>brain can regenerate or heal themselves?

433
00:23:36.319 --> 00:23:39.519
<v Speaker 3>Ooh, it's so tricky to answer for humans because a

434
00:23:39.640 --> 00:23:43.880
<v Speaker 3>human brain is really hard to study, especially at the

435
00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:47.920
<v Speaker 3>cellular level. But there have been some very clever studies

436
00:23:48.720 --> 00:23:53.519
<v Speaker 3>that where people who were unfortunately exposed to radioactivity we

437
00:23:54.200 --> 00:23:57.480
<v Speaker 3>post mortem after they passed, were able to see cells

438
00:23:57.480 --> 00:23:59.880
<v Speaker 3>that would have regenerated in their brain because of the

439
00:24:00.119 --> 00:24:03.559
<v Speaker 3>different decay of that radioactive marker. So it's a very

440
00:24:03.599 --> 00:24:07.440
<v Speaker 3>unfortunate reason why we got that information, but a really

441
00:24:08.079 --> 00:24:09.319
<v Speaker 3>really clever study.

442
00:24:09.119 --> 00:24:12.480
<v Speaker 2>When it comes to studying the human brain or the

443
00:24:12.519 --> 00:24:14.960
<v Speaker 2>mammalian brain. You really do have to take a step

444
00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:18.880
<v Speaker 2>back from humans and start in models of other mammals

445
00:24:18.880 --> 00:24:21.359
<v Speaker 2>that are historically studied, like rodents and such.

446
00:24:21.440 --> 00:24:25.279
<v Speaker 3>Right, all of my research was in mice, yes.

447
00:24:25.240 --> 00:24:29.079
<v Speaker 2>And I had an aside in the recent Airport Neuroscience episode,

448
00:24:29.119 --> 00:24:31.240
<v Speaker 2>but then it felt long, so I took it out.

449
00:24:31.319 --> 00:24:33.640
<v Speaker 2>But I just want to acknowledge here that hearing about

450
00:24:33.720 --> 00:24:37.440
<v Speaker 2>animals used in research can be really tough. And I

451
00:24:37.519 --> 00:24:40.240
<v Speaker 2>have vegan aspirations. I've cut down a lot on the

452
00:24:40.240 --> 00:24:43.720
<v Speaker 2>animal products I consume, but I still eat some meat.

453
00:24:44.039 --> 00:24:48.240
<v Speaker 2>I'm definitely not perfect, and an unfortunate fact of our

454
00:24:48.279 --> 00:24:51.880
<v Speaker 2>species is that our very existence living in houses and

455
00:24:51.960 --> 00:24:56.839
<v Speaker 2>driving on roads and taking planes and eating agriculturally cultivated

456
00:24:56.880 --> 00:25:00.799
<v Speaker 2>foods and even medicine impacts other species. I'm not here

457
00:25:00.839 --> 00:25:04.480
<v Speaker 2>to answer any ethical questions because I'm still asking them myself.

458
00:25:04.680 --> 00:25:08.440
<v Speaker 2>And actually, when I was googling that ship of theseus paradox,

459
00:25:08.440 --> 00:25:11.880
<v Speaker 2>I stumbled across a twenty twelve movie of the same name,

460
00:25:11.920 --> 00:25:15.720
<v Speaker 2>which was written and directed by Mumbai born and Non Gandhi.

461
00:25:15.920 --> 00:25:19.119
<v Speaker 2>And this movie follows three patients and the ethics of

462
00:25:19.359 --> 00:25:22.960
<v Speaker 2>transplantation and other medical treatments, and one character in it

463
00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:26.160
<v Speaker 2>is a monk, and despite having liver disease, he maintains

464
00:25:26.200 --> 00:25:29.799
<v Speaker 2>this staunch opposition to animal testing and thus any sorosis treatment.

465
00:25:29.880 --> 00:25:32.359
<v Speaker 2>So that's an interesting and related movie about looking at

466
00:25:32.359 --> 00:25:35.319
<v Speaker 2>the ethics of all this. But just like how cashew

467
00:25:35.400 --> 00:25:39.559
<v Speaker 2>cheese gets better every coachella, stem cell research is also advancing.

468
00:25:40.000 --> 00:25:43.960
<v Speaker 3>There's cool stem cell research making like organoid models, where

469
00:25:44.000 --> 00:25:47.279
<v Speaker 3>you make like mini versions of tissue in a dish

470
00:25:47.319 --> 00:25:49.839
<v Speaker 3>so that you don't have to use animals. That's not

471
00:25:49.960 --> 00:25:55.400
<v Speaker 3>replacing animal studies anytimes, right, right, be cool, but not quite.

472
00:25:55.160 --> 00:25:59.319
<v Speaker 2>When you're starting to look at animal models or mammalian brains.

473
00:25:59.559 --> 00:26:02.119
<v Speaker 2>What are you thank you even looking for?

474
00:26:02.359 --> 00:26:02.559
<v Speaker 1>Yeah?

475
00:26:02.599 --> 00:26:05.400
<v Speaker 3>Can I tell you one of my favorite things that

476
00:26:05.559 --> 00:26:09.000
<v Speaker 3>I never thought I would care about? But developmental biology

477
00:26:09.200 --> 00:26:13.000
<v Speaker 3>is the coolest, and I study stem cells but because

478
00:26:13.000 --> 00:26:16.039
<v Speaker 3>I think development is cool, And all of the hints

479
00:26:16.119 --> 00:26:19.839
<v Speaker 3>for where regeneration can happen in the adult come from

480
00:26:20.279 --> 00:26:23.839
<v Speaker 3>where things formed when we were developing before we're born

481
00:26:24.039 --> 00:26:27.079
<v Speaker 3>and even lately shortly after we're born, And in fact,

482
00:26:27.119 --> 00:26:29.599
<v Speaker 3>cells in our brain are being born into our twenties,

483
00:26:30.079 --> 00:26:32.640
<v Speaker 3>especially those ones in the front of our brains that

484
00:26:32.720 --> 00:26:35.519
<v Speaker 3>help with these complex decision makings that humans are really

485
00:26:35.519 --> 00:26:38.079
<v Speaker 3>good at. Where did cells of the brain come from,

486
00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:40.839
<v Speaker 3>Because if we started off as just one cell, one

487
00:26:40.920 --> 00:26:44.079
<v Speaker 3>fertilized egg, how do you eventually become the trillions in

488
00:26:44.119 --> 00:26:47.119
<v Speaker 3>your body? At one point there must have been one

489
00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:50.359
<v Speaker 3>cell or some area of cells that go on to

490
00:26:50.400 --> 00:26:52.960
<v Speaker 3>make a brain. And if you study that and kind

491
00:26:52.960 --> 00:26:56.160
<v Speaker 3>of follow what those cells looked like early on and

492
00:26:56.200 --> 00:26:59.519
<v Speaker 3>even where they were, that can help you get clues

493
00:26:59.559 --> 00:27:02.799
<v Speaker 3>for where cells with similar properties that can regenerate and

494
00:27:02.880 --> 00:27:05.039
<v Speaker 3>make things right. If you want to know how to

495
00:27:05.519 --> 00:27:07.640
<v Speaker 3>rebuild your house, you should probably know what the foundation

496
00:27:07.720 --> 00:27:09.319
<v Speaker 3>of the house looked like, how it was built in

497
00:27:09.359 --> 00:27:12.279
<v Speaker 3>the first place. Same thing in the body. You look

498
00:27:12.279 --> 00:27:15.400
<v Speaker 3>at how a tissue was built before birth, then you

499
00:27:15.519 --> 00:27:18.039
<v Speaker 3>learn how you could maybe rebuild it. You learn what

500
00:27:18.079 --> 00:27:21.319
<v Speaker 3>the cells with that potential look like, and so we

501
00:27:21.440 --> 00:27:24.039
<v Speaker 3>start in all of stem cell biology. Even if you're

502
00:27:24.079 --> 00:27:28.400
<v Speaker 3>studying adult stem cells in fully mature tissue, it's really

503
00:27:28.400 --> 00:27:31.000
<v Speaker 3>helpful to go back to development and learn the basics.

504
00:27:31.400 --> 00:27:33.960
<v Speaker 3>And from doing that we learned a lot about what

505
00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:36.319
<v Speaker 3>stem cells in the adult brain start to look like

506
00:27:37.160 --> 00:27:39.680
<v Speaker 3>and get those key markers to help us purify them

507
00:27:39.720 --> 00:27:43.480
<v Speaker 3>and identify them in a tissue with fancy antibodies and

508
00:27:43.599 --> 00:27:45.319
<v Speaker 3>proteins that glow.

509
00:27:46.200 --> 00:27:49.720
<v Speaker 2>And what about your PhD work specifically, can you tell

510
00:27:49.759 --> 00:27:51.880
<v Speaker 2>us a little bit about what your research and your

511
00:27:51.960 --> 00:27:52.559
<v Speaker 2>findings were.

512
00:27:52.960 --> 00:27:56.839
<v Speaker 3>I started off looking at cells in the adult rodent brain,

513
00:27:57.000 --> 00:27:59.359
<v Speaker 3>so we were trying to study what do they do.

514
00:27:59.640 --> 00:28:02.079
<v Speaker 3>In fact, we found there are different populations of stem

515
00:28:02.160 --> 00:28:06.079
<v Speaker 3>cells in the adult brain, and one in particular that

516
00:28:06.160 --> 00:28:09.240
<v Speaker 3>we were excited about was what we called a primitive

517
00:28:09.240 --> 00:28:12.559
<v Speaker 3>neural stem cell. It's this very quiet stem cell. I

518
00:28:12.599 --> 00:28:15.680
<v Speaker 3>call it the ultimate Grandma stem cell because it really

519
00:28:15.799 --> 00:28:19.440
<v Speaker 3>doesn't do much. It barely divides, it's just chillin. Most

520
00:28:19.480 --> 00:28:21.680
<v Speaker 3>studies have missed it, so it's not one that was

521
00:28:21.720 --> 00:28:25.680
<v Speaker 3>popularly studied. It's very rare. But when there was some

522
00:28:25.759 --> 00:28:29.799
<v Speaker 3>kind of trauma or injury to the brain, including you

523
00:28:29.839 --> 00:28:33.160
<v Speaker 3>could do models of stroke, for example in mice, then

524
00:28:33.200 --> 00:28:35.319
<v Speaker 3>we found it would start to become really active and

525
00:28:35.359 --> 00:28:37.839
<v Speaker 3>start dividing. So it's kind of like a grandma who's

526
00:28:37.880 --> 00:28:40.519
<v Speaker 3>chillin on a rocking chair. She's like, I've done so

527
00:28:40.640 --> 00:28:43.880
<v Speaker 3>much already, time to rest and hang out. But something

528
00:28:43.880 --> 00:28:46.079
<v Speaker 3>goes wrong in the family and she's up and she's

529
00:28:46.119 --> 00:28:50.920
<v Speaker 3>doing everything. So I called it the Grandma cell with

530
00:28:50.960 --> 00:28:53.680
<v Speaker 3>a lot of reverence and respect kick ass, and I

531
00:28:53.720 --> 00:28:56.640
<v Speaker 3>started studying these cells at really early stages of brain

532
00:28:56.680 --> 00:29:00.319
<v Speaker 3>development and trying to understand just what the family tree

533
00:29:00.400 --> 00:29:03.839
<v Speaker 3>looks like at those early stages, especially at this age

534
00:29:03.920 --> 00:29:06.720
<v Speaker 3>where you're switching from making lots of one type of

535
00:29:06.720 --> 00:29:09.799
<v Speaker 3>brain cell called neurons. These are the ones that send

536
00:29:09.880 --> 00:29:12.480
<v Speaker 3>the electrochemical messages that help us do all the things

537
00:29:12.519 --> 00:29:15.200
<v Speaker 3>we do. You're switching from making lots of those to

538
00:29:15.279 --> 00:29:17.799
<v Speaker 3>making lots of another type of cell called astrocytes, these

539
00:29:17.839 --> 00:29:21.680
<v Speaker 3>beautiful star shaped cells that kind of support and buffer

540
00:29:21.759 --> 00:29:23.759
<v Speaker 3>and do all sorts of things they don't get credit

541
00:29:23.839 --> 00:29:25.960
<v Speaker 3>for in the brain. What do the stem cells look

542
00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:26.920
<v Speaker 3>like and.

543
00:29:26.920 --> 00:29:31.519
<v Speaker 2>What kinds of diseases are being looked at in terms

544
00:29:31.519 --> 00:29:34.480
<v Speaker 2>of stem cell therapy. Perhaps one day.

545
00:29:34.960 --> 00:29:39.559
<v Speaker 3>Stem cells have a lot of hope because they can

546
00:29:39.599 --> 00:29:43.400
<v Speaker 3>make new cells. So any disease where cells have been

547
00:29:43.440 --> 00:29:47.240
<v Speaker 3>lost and that's leading to the disease, or even diseases

548
00:29:47.319 --> 00:29:50.680
<v Speaker 3>like cancers where you have cells that are acting out

549
00:29:50.720 --> 00:29:53.559
<v Speaker 3>and acting in a way that isn't helpful for the body,

550
00:29:54.039 --> 00:29:57.839
<v Speaker 3>that you could think of replacing those bad actors with

551
00:29:57.960 --> 00:30:01.160
<v Speaker 3>stem cells and just replace them so you don't have them.

552
00:30:01.599 --> 00:30:03.839
<v Speaker 3>With that said, there are very few diseases where stem

553
00:30:03.920 --> 00:30:07.079
<v Speaker 3>cells are an active therapy. Things related to the blood.

554
00:30:07.400 --> 00:30:12.000
<v Speaker 3>Immune or blood diseases are the most routine types of therapies,

555
00:30:12.079 --> 00:30:17.519
<v Speaker 3>so different leukemias, even multiple sclerosis. In certain cases, stem

556
00:30:17.519 --> 00:30:20.799
<v Speaker 3>cell therapies via a bone marrow transplant can be helpful,

557
00:30:21.160 --> 00:30:23.599
<v Speaker 3>but it's very intense and it's not a first line

558
00:30:23.640 --> 00:30:27.079
<v Speaker 3>of therapy because a bone marrow transplant is not chill

559
00:30:27.319 --> 00:30:28.079
<v Speaker 3>by any means.

560
00:30:28.240 --> 00:30:30.240
<v Speaker 2>And if that's from a donor, does that mean you

561
00:30:30.279 --> 00:30:33.480
<v Speaker 2>also have to be on immuno suppressants.

562
00:30:33.319 --> 00:30:37.799
<v Speaker 3>Yes, exactly, which can make it really really tricky because

563
00:30:38.440 --> 00:30:41.319
<v Speaker 3>now you have to deal with being on immunosuppressants and

564
00:30:41.359 --> 00:30:43.400
<v Speaker 3>you have to make sure the cells don't get rejected.

565
00:30:43.599 --> 00:30:46.799
<v Speaker 3>And it's definitely not a first line of treatment, but

566
00:30:46.920 --> 00:30:50.599
<v Speaker 3>because the blood is so accessible, it's the easiest and

567
00:30:50.640 --> 00:30:53.000
<v Speaker 3>it's been the one that we've been doing for the longest.

568
00:30:53.599 --> 00:30:56.119
<v Speaker 3>There are other cases where you're doing a skin graft,

569
00:30:56.160 --> 00:31:00.720
<v Speaker 3>for example, or different corneal surgeries where you're rafting new

570
00:31:01.400 --> 00:31:04.680
<v Speaker 3>mini sheets of cells, and those are using stem cells,

571
00:31:05.039 --> 00:31:08.000
<v Speaker 3>but not in their pure form, and those are really

572
00:31:08.039 --> 00:31:09.240
<v Speaker 3>the main ones.

573
00:31:09.200 --> 00:31:11.759
<v Speaker 2>And the results do vary per study. There was one

574
00:31:11.880 --> 00:31:14.160
<v Speaker 2>meta analysis that came out in twenty twenty two titled

575
00:31:14.359 --> 00:31:17.400
<v Speaker 2>clinical translation of stem cell Therapy for Spinal cord injury

576
00:31:17.559 --> 00:31:21.440
<v Speaker 2>still premature results from a single arm meta analysis based

577
00:31:21.480 --> 00:31:24.599
<v Speaker 2>on sixty two clinical trials, and this study poured through

578
00:31:24.880 --> 00:31:28.839
<v Speaker 2>dozens of studies and found that the results demonstrated that

579
00:31:28.960 --> 00:31:32.839
<v Speaker 2>the efficacy of stem cell therapy is encouraging, but the

580
00:31:32.920 --> 00:31:39.200
<v Speaker 2>subsequent adverse effects, including neuropathy, pain, and muscle spasms, remain concerning.

581
00:31:39.359 --> 00:31:41.839
<v Speaker 2>And now my mom has MS, and there are some

582
00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:45.319
<v Speaker 2>therapies for people who have relapsing remitting MS, but my

583
00:31:45.400 --> 00:31:48.119
<v Speaker 2>mom has progressive MS, which is a different type. And

584
00:31:48.400 --> 00:31:51.240
<v Speaker 2>a few months ago, an Italian study titled Neural stem

585
00:31:51.279 --> 00:31:55.079
<v Speaker 2>cell Transplantation in Patients with Progressive multiple Sclerosis and open

586
00:31:55.160 --> 00:31:59.039
<v Speaker 2>label Phase one study revealed that twelve patients with progressive

587
00:31:59.119 --> 00:32:04.279
<v Speaker 2>MS treated with spinal cord transplanted human fetal neural precursor

588
00:32:04.319 --> 00:32:07.359
<v Speaker 2>cells tolerated the treatment well and had less brain tissue

589
00:32:07.359 --> 00:32:11.799
<v Speaker 2>atrophy and more neuroprotective molecules proportional to the amount of

590
00:32:11.799 --> 00:32:14.960
<v Speaker 2>cells received. So that's one field of research my family

591
00:32:15.240 --> 00:32:16.279
<v Speaker 2>is keeping an eye on.

592
00:32:16.640 --> 00:32:19.680
<v Speaker 3>Oh, speaking of the eye as well, the eye is

593
00:32:19.720 --> 00:32:23.279
<v Speaker 3>really interesting because it's contained in itself and you have two,

594
00:32:23.480 --> 00:32:25.400
<v Speaker 3>not that you'd want to lose one, but for people

595
00:32:25.960 --> 00:32:29.440
<v Speaker 3>who are really looking to regain any amount of vision

596
00:32:29.480 --> 00:32:32.200
<v Speaker 3>that they can, and where even a ten percent improvement

597
00:32:32.359 --> 00:32:35.119
<v Speaker 3>could make a huge difference for quality of life, that's

598
00:32:35.160 --> 00:32:38.599
<v Speaker 3>a really attractive and easier place to do studies. So

599
00:32:38.640 --> 00:32:40.160
<v Speaker 3>there are lots of studies in the eye that are

600
00:32:40.160 --> 00:32:40.960
<v Speaker 3>pretty cool.

601
00:32:40.839 --> 00:32:44.200
<v Speaker 2>And I'm sure there must be labs figuring out how

602
00:32:44.240 --> 00:32:46.400
<v Speaker 2>do we take a cheek swab and make you a

603
00:32:46.480 --> 00:32:49.480
<v Speaker 2>batch of your own stem cells that you won't reject?

604
00:32:49.640 --> 00:32:49.759
<v Speaker 3>Right?

605
00:32:49.960 --> 00:32:52.599
<v Speaker 2>Is that just like a sci fi novel? Or is

606
00:32:52.599 --> 00:32:53.920
<v Speaker 2>that closer?

607
00:32:54.400 --> 00:32:59.599
<v Speaker 3>That is only recently possible because of a discovery in

608
00:32:59.680 --> 00:33:02.960
<v Speaker 3>two thousand and six, And it is wild to me

609
00:33:03.079 --> 00:33:05.839
<v Speaker 3>that in two thousand and six a whole new field

610
00:33:05.839 --> 00:33:08.480
<v Speaker 3>of stem cell biology was started, and I believe they

611
00:33:08.480 --> 00:33:11.240
<v Speaker 3>won the Nobel Prize for it in twenty twelve.

612
00:33:11.480 --> 00:33:15.720
<v Speaker 2>It's true. John B. Gerden and Shinya Yamanaka won the

613
00:33:15.880 --> 00:33:18.720
<v Speaker 2>twenty twelve Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine for the

614
00:33:18.759 --> 00:33:23.480
<v Speaker 2>discovery that mature cells can be reprogrammed to become pluripotent.

615
00:33:24.160 --> 00:33:26.960
<v Speaker 3>So I had already told you stem cells or stem cells,

616
00:33:27.279 --> 00:33:29.559
<v Speaker 3>there are different ones throughout the body, and a brain

617
00:33:29.599 --> 00:33:31.720
<v Speaker 3>stem cell can only make brain cells, and I was

618
00:33:31.759 --> 00:33:35.759
<v Speaker 3>pretty firm about that. Well, it turns out that these

619
00:33:35.799 --> 00:33:38.839
<v Speaker 3>people found that you could take a mature skin cell,

620
00:33:39.240 --> 00:33:42.079
<v Speaker 3>a mature skin cell that on its own would do

621
00:33:42.160 --> 00:33:45.160
<v Speaker 3>nothing but be skin. You could take a mature skin cell,

622
00:33:45.559 --> 00:33:50.400
<v Speaker 3>and with just four special factors called reprogramming factors, you

623
00:33:50.440 --> 00:33:53.480
<v Speaker 3>could reprogram it to not be a skin cell, but

624
00:33:53.559 --> 00:33:57.680
<v Speaker 3>kind of go back in developmental time and become what

625
00:33:57.720 --> 00:34:00.279
<v Speaker 3>we call an induced pluripotent stem cell.

626
00:34:00.480 --> 00:34:02.319
<v Speaker 2>Let's rewind and try again.

627
00:34:02.519 --> 00:34:06.359
<v Speaker 3>So it's going from mature skin cell only skin, reverting

628
00:34:06.440 --> 00:34:09.239
<v Speaker 3>back undoing its own development, and now it can make

629
00:34:09.280 --> 00:34:11.719
<v Speaker 3>any cell in the body. What boom?

630
00:34:11.880 --> 00:34:12.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, in.

631
00:34:14.920 --> 00:34:16.320
<v Speaker 3>Two thousand and six.

632
00:34:16.159 --> 00:34:18.400
<v Speaker 2>So now what are folks doing with that?

633
00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:22.320
<v Speaker 3>A whole new branch of science was started. The cool

634
00:34:22.360 --> 00:34:25.320
<v Speaker 3>thing about they're called IPS cells for short.

635
00:34:25.199 --> 00:34:29.360
<v Speaker 2>That stands for induced pluripotent stem cells. Who boy, howdy

636
00:34:29.480 --> 00:34:30.199
<v Speaker 2>they are cool.

637
00:34:30.360 --> 00:34:33.239
<v Speaker 3>They're really really interesting because they let you do exactly

638
00:34:33.239 --> 00:34:37.199
<v Speaker 3>what you said of taking cells from let's say someone

639
00:34:37.280 --> 00:34:41.599
<v Speaker 3>with a brain disease. Their brain cells are not easily accessible.

640
00:34:42.280 --> 00:34:45.239
<v Speaker 3>You can't easily extract cells to study them in a dish,

641
00:34:45.360 --> 00:34:48.079
<v Speaker 3>or to grow them up to then transplant them back.

642
00:34:48.119 --> 00:34:51.079
<v Speaker 3>That's not an experiment you can do. However, if you

643
00:34:51.079 --> 00:34:53.639
<v Speaker 3>could take their skin cells, which should have the same

644
00:34:53.719 --> 00:34:56.920
<v Speaker 3>genetic changes that the cells in their brain have, grow

645
00:34:56.920 --> 00:34:59.519
<v Speaker 3>them into IPS cells, then turn them into brain in

646
00:34:59.559 --> 00:35:03.360
<v Speaker 3>a dish, maybe you could put those back in or

647
00:35:03.400 --> 00:35:06.000
<v Speaker 3>maybe one of the most common use cases isn't just

648
00:35:06.079 --> 00:35:08.840
<v Speaker 3>for cell replacement like I just described, but it's for

649
00:35:08.920 --> 00:35:12.880
<v Speaker 3>studying those hard to access cells. Now you could have

650
00:35:12.960 --> 00:35:17.320
<v Speaker 3>these patient specific models of hard to reach cells in

651
00:35:17.360 --> 00:35:20.400
<v Speaker 3>the body in a dish, which is really wild.

652
00:35:20.559 --> 00:35:24.880
<v Speaker 2>It was so wild, so easily taking skin cells, reprogramming

653
00:35:24.920 --> 00:35:30.280
<v Speaker 2>them into egg and sperm precursors, into motor neurons, blood cells,

654
00:35:30.320 --> 00:35:33.719
<v Speaker 2>liver cells in a dish. So some folks with conditions

655
00:35:33.760 --> 00:35:38.559
<v Speaker 2>like ALS or Duchen's muscular dystrophy are donating skin cells

656
00:35:38.599 --> 00:35:41.679
<v Speaker 2>to researchers to see if the cells can be reprogrammed.

657
00:35:41.840 --> 00:35:44.599
<v Speaker 2>It's a ways off, but it's promising. It's giving me

658
00:35:44.679 --> 00:35:47.599
<v Speaker 2>some sort of peace of mind. But what about things

659
00:35:47.639 --> 00:35:50.119
<v Speaker 2>like I got a sports injury and I had a

660
00:35:50.159 --> 00:35:53.400
<v Speaker 2>stem cell injection in my shoulder. Does that work? Is

661
00:35:53.440 --> 00:35:54.760
<v Speaker 2>that flim flam? What's the deal?

662
00:35:55.199 --> 00:35:57.239
<v Speaker 3>I've told you a lot about the hope of stem cells,

663
00:35:57.679 --> 00:36:01.599
<v Speaker 3>but beware because there's lots of hype and most things

664
00:36:01.679 --> 00:36:04.800
<v Speaker 3>like that where you're hearing about stem cell injections for

665
00:36:04.840 --> 00:36:08.960
<v Speaker 3>a sports injury or for anything really besides an intense

666
00:36:09.440 --> 00:36:14.000
<v Speaker 3>kind of blood condition or maybe a skin or eye

667
00:36:14.519 --> 00:36:18.840
<v Speaker 3>type of graft. Basically, anything being advertised direct to consumer

668
00:36:19.400 --> 00:36:25.519
<v Speaker 3>like that for pain is very likely a scam. There's

669
00:36:25.559 --> 00:36:29.639
<v Speaker 3>this thing called stem cell tourism and lots of direct

670
00:36:29.719 --> 00:36:33.480
<v Speaker 3>to consumer marketing of stem cell products, and I will

671
00:36:33.920 --> 00:36:38.119
<v Speaker 3>say that unfortunately most of them are not legitimate, and

672
00:36:38.239 --> 00:36:42.199
<v Speaker 3>they are operating under legal loopholes. And in fact, the

673
00:36:42.320 --> 00:36:45.199
<v Speaker 3>US is the country with the majority of these types

674
00:36:45.239 --> 00:36:49.599
<v Speaker 3>of fraudulent stem cell clinics that are frankly quite dangerous.

675
00:36:49.880 --> 00:36:51.519
<v Speaker 3>You might say, like, well, why not try if there

676
00:36:51.519 --> 00:36:53.440
<v Speaker 3>are no other options? I get it, I have chronic

677
00:36:53.440 --> 00:36:56.920
<v Speaker 3>back pain. I'm there with you, but it can be

678
00:36:57.079 --> 00:37:00.360
<v Speaker 3>very dangerous to do something that hasn't been approved.

679
00:37:00.320 --> 00:37:02.800
<v Speaker 2>PS for anyone with chronic pain. We do have an

680
00:37:02.840 --> 00:37:06.599
<v Speaker 2>episode on that called dolerology. Where are those stem cells

681
00:37:06.599 --> 00:37:07.199
<v Speaker 2>coming from?

682
00:37:07.679 --> 00:37:12.760
<v Speaker 3>Oh, that is the question, because it's it could be anywhere.

683
00:37:12.840 --> 00:37:17.599
<v Speaker 3>Sometimes they're stem cells from other animals like pigs. Sometimes

684
00:37:17.760 --> 00:37:20.000
<v Speaker 3>they'll say that it's coming from your own body. But

685
00:37:20.599 --> 00:37:24.360
<v Speaker 3>I've spoken with people who've underwent them, and just from

686
00:37:24.400 --> 00:37:26.800
<v Speaker 3>hearing what they went through, I'm like, I don't think

687
00:37:26.840 --> 00:37:29.320
<v Speaker 3>that they actually got stem cells. And there might be

688
00:37:29.440 --> 00:37:31.880
<v Speaker 3>like a short term Oh yeah, I felt better for

689
00:37:31.920 --> 00:37:34.519
<v Speaker 3>some period of time. It could be placebo. It could

690
00:37:34.519 --> 00:37:37.239
<v Speaker 3>also just be like the inflammation induced from that type

691
00:37:37.239 --> 00:37:41.599
<v Speaker 3>of procedure can have a slight improvement effect, but it's

692
00:37:41.679 --> 00:37:44.079
<v Speaker 3>short lived, and it's certainly not a stem cell therapy.

693
00:37:44.599 --> 00:37:48.559
<v Speaker 3>And because they're operating under legal loopholes, you don't really

694
00:37:48.639 --> 00:37:50.760
<v Speaker 3>know what they're injecting into you, and it can be

695
00:37:51.000 --> 00:37:54.719
<v Speaker 3>quite dangerous also very expensive, and so just a red

696
00:37:54.760 --> 00:37:58.960
<v Speaker 3>flag for folks listening if someone's saying you'll be participating

697
00:37:59.000 --> 00:38:00.880
<v Speaker 3>in a clinical trial, because that's what they often do.

698
00:38:00.920 --> 00:38:03.599
<v Speaker 3>They say it's experimental, and folks will message me and

699
00:38:03.639 --> 00:38:06.000
<v Speaker 3>be like, yeah, yeah, it's experimental. I know it's like new,

700
00:38:06.039 --> 00:38:08.079
<v Speaker 3>but I'm excited to be a part of research, and

701
00:38:08.159 --> 00:38:10.239
<v Speaker 3>I love that they're excited to be part of it.

702
00:38:10.599 --> 00:38:13.199
<v Speaker 3>But if they're making you pay, it's probably not a

703
00:38:13.199 --> 00:38:17.679
<v Speaker 3>real clinical trial because typically those legitimate ones are funded

704
00:38:18.199 --> 00:38:21.320
<v Speaker 3>and you'll have a clear indication of risks like a

705
00:38:21.360 --> 00:38:24.239
<v Speaker 3>real clinical trial. They're almost convincing you not to participate

706
00:38:24.480 --> 00:38:28.159
<v Speaker 3>because they are over explaining all risks because they want consent,

707
00:38:28.239 --> 00:38:29.199
<v Speaker 3>which is a good thing.

708
00:38:29.280 --> 00:38:32.559
<v Speaker 2>Right, but it's hard to tell. Some sketch places will

709
00:38:32.599 --> 00:38:37.159
<v Speaker 2>even post to clinicaltrials dot gov because that site doesn't

710
00:38:37.159 --> 00:38:40.840
<v Speaker 2>always vet or double check who's posting trials, so definitely

711
00:38:40.880 --> 00:38:43.440
<v Speaker 2>do your homework. And not long ago, their Federal Trade

712
00:38:43.440 --> 00:38:47.760
<v Speaker 2>Commission and the Georgia Attorney General's Office sued the founders

713
00:38:47.760 --> 00:38:51.519
<v Speaker 2>of a company that was ambiguously called the stem Cell

714
00:38:51.599 --> 00:38:56.039
<v Speaker 2>Institute of America because they were targeting seniors and promising

715
00:38:56.079 --> 00:38:59.480
<v Speaker 2>all this relief from arthritis and joint pain with stem

716
00:38:59.480 --> 00:39:03.519
<v Speaker 2>cell and j aections costing five grand apiece. And in

717
00:39:03.559 --> 00:39:06.119
<v Speaker 2>a recent ruling, the stem Cell Clinic was ordered to

718
00:39:06.119 --> 00:39:08.960
<v Speaker 2>pay three hundred thousand dollars in damages, which does sound

719
00:39:09.039 --> 00:39:11.960
<v Speaker 2>like a victory, but they took in over six million

720
00:39:12.039 --> 00:39:14.559
<v Speaker 2>before they were sued, and we have a twenty twenty

721
00:39:14.599 --> 00:39:18.400
<v Speaker 2>one Genicular Traumatology episode about knee problems, and in it,

722
00:39:18.480 --> 00:39:21.719
<v Speaker 2>the guest doctor Stone talked about recruiting the body's own

723
00:39:21.800 --> 00:39:25.119
<v Speaker 2>stem cells to an injury using cytokines. So listen to

724
00:39:25.159 --> 00:39:29.039
<v Speaker 2>that one if you're curious about your pesky, high maintenance joints. Now,

725
00:39:29.079 --> 00:39:33.280
<v Speaker 2>what about let's say my parents had taken my umbilical

726
00:39:33.360 --> 00:39:37.159
<v Speaker 2>cord and thrown it in a medical grade freezer. Let's

727
00:39:37.199 --> 00:39:40.400
<v Speaker 2>say that I had a chunk of my own baby cells.

728
00:39:40.960 --> 00:39:44.519
<v Speaker 2>Is how is that used? How is embryonic and placential

729
00:39:45.159 --> 00:39:49.360
<v Speaker 2>types of stem cells used? So the first successful umbilical

730
00:39:49.440 --> 00:39:52.760
<v Speaker 2>cord blood transplant happened in nineteen eighty eight, and then

731
00:39:52.960 --> 00:39:56.440
<v Speaker 2>the first public cord blood bank opened in New York

732
00:39:56.519 --> 00:40:00.840
<v Speaker 2>in nineteen ninety one. So, younger millennials, maybe your cord

733
00:40:00.880 --> 00:40:04.519
<v Speaker 2>got tossed on ice like a necklace of leftover sausages.

734
00:40:04.840 --> 00:40:07.800
<v Speaker 2>But gen Z, you're of the age when this was possible.

735
00:40:08.079 --> 00:40:11.719
<v Speaker 2>Gen X, I'm sorry. Born in an era when diet

736
00:40:11.719 --> 00:40:15.440
<v Speaker 2>pepsi counted as water and switching to camel lights was

737
00:40:15.519 --> 00:40:19.159
<v Speaker 2>a prenatal wind. Are you preggers? You can add cord

738
00:40:19.199 --> 00:40:22.840
<v Speaker 2>banking to your birthing to do list, along with getting

739
00:40:23.000 --> 00:40:26.960
<v Speaker 2>your whole nursery together and not tearing your buttthole asunder.

740
00:40:27.320 --> 00:40:30.840
<v Speaker 3>Mbellical cord banking is I think a really cool and

741
00:40:30.880 --> 00:40:36.280
<v Speaker 3>exciting option. However, from my friends in the blood stem

742
00:40:36.320 --> 00:40:39.039
<v Speaker 3>cell field, there aren't enough blood stem cells in the

743
00:40:39.119 --> 00:40:43.639
<v Speaker 3>umbellical cord for an adult body, and blood stem cells

744
00:40:43.679 --> 00:40:47.760
<v Speaker 3>are really hard to culture and expand outside of the body.

745
00:40:48.159 --> 00:40:50.679
<v Speaker 3>The top indication where you'd want to bank it for

746
00:40:50.760 --> 00:40:53.239
<v Speaker 3>your own use is if you have a known family

747
00:40:53.360 --> 00:40:57.960
<v Speaker 3>history of blood conditions that might start really early in life.

748
00:40:58.239 --> 00:40:59.760
<v Speaker 3>So if you have that in your family history, I

749
00:40:59.760 --> 00:41:01.519
<v Speaker 3>mean I certainly talk to your doctor. Don't just take

750
00:41:01.519 --> 00:41:03.719
<v Speaker 3>my advice on that. Talk to your doctor and they

751
00:41:03.800 --> 00:41:05.840
<v Speaker 3>might advise you, yes, you should bank it and keep

752
00:41:05.880 --> 00:41:09.000
<v Speaker 3>it for your own child, because in their early life

753
00:41:09.039 --> 00:41:10.920
<v Speaker 3>they may need this and it would be enough to

754
00:41:10.920 --> 00:41:13.599
<v Speaker 3>help them. But for most people it's not enough, and

755
00:41:13.639 --> 00:41:16.280
<v Speaker 3>so it's really great to still keep the umbellical cord

756
00:41:16.320 --> 00:41:18.880
<v Speaker 3>but put it into the public system, and then through

757
00:41:18.880 --> 00:41:21.519
<v Speaker 3>that public system it can help research, it can help

758
00:41:21.559 --> 00:41:24.639
<v Speaker 3>other people who are waiting, and umbelical cord stem cells

759
00:41:24.639 --> 00:41:29.679
<v Speaker 3>are really cool because they're less immunologically mature, so they're

760
00:41:29.880 --> 00:41:33.639
<v Speaker 3>better donors for lots of people. So all that to say,

761
00:41:33.719 --> 00:41:37.519
<v Speaker 3>if you are giving birth soon, please talk to your

762
00:41:37.760 --> 00:41:41.639
<v Speaker 3>birthing team about banking your umbelical cord and if it

763
00:41:41.639 --> 00:41:44.639
<v Speaker 3>makes sense for your family, putting it into the public

764
00:41:44.679 --> 00:41:46.679
<v Speaker 3>system is always really really cool.

765
00:41:46.519 --> 00:41:49.000
<v Speaker 2>Part of a buy nothing group. Offer up your highly

766
00:41:49.079 --> 00:41:52.159
<v Speaker 2>vascularized meat tube taking up space on your abdomen. I

767
00:41:52.199 --> 00:41:53.119
<v Speaker 2>got an umbilical cord.

768
00:41:53.159 --> 00:41:56.400
<v Speaker 3>I'm not used anymore. Look, if you're doing all that

769
00:41:56.519 --> 00:41:58.559
<v Speaker 3>and given birth, you do what you need to do.

770
00:41:58.800 --> 00:41:59.519
<v Speaker 2>What you need to do.

771
00:42:00.480 --> 00:42:00.719
<v Speaker 3>Well.

772
00:42:00.760 --> 00:42:02.719
<v Speaker 2>You know this is interesting too, because I feel like

773
00:42:02.800 --> 00:42:07.480
<v Speaker 2>anyone who was kind of aware of the emergence of

774
00:42:07.719 --> 00:42:13.360
<v Speaker 2>this field, especially in America. Different administrations have been more

775
00:42:13.480 --> 00:42:16.480
<v Speaker 2>pro stem cell research, and others have taken a little

776
00:42:16.480 --> 00:42:20.639
<v Speaker 2>bit more of a conservative approach. But when it comes

777
00:42:20.719 --> 00:42:25.320
<v Speaker 2>to research on embryonic stem cells and folks who might

778
00:42:25.400 --> 00:42:29.159
<v Speaker 2>have embryos that they don't plan on, you know, carrying

779
00:42:29.239 --> 00:42:31.480
<v Speaker 2>to term and stuff, where does embryonic research come into

780
00:42:31.480 --> 00:42:31.719
<v Speaker 2>all this?

781
00:42:32.280 --> 00:42:35.599
<v Speaker 3>Mm hmmm. Another reason why Canada is such a leader

782
00:42:35.599 --> 00:42:38.679
<v Speaker 3>in stuff too. I didn't want to say that at

783
00:42:38.719 --> 00:42:43.519
<v Speaker 3>the time. Okay, that makes sense, Yes, that makes it.

784
00:42:43.559 --> 00:42:46.880
<v Speaker 3>I don't want to start with that, but anyways, Yeah,

785
00:42:46.920 --> 00:42:49.760
<v Speaker 3>there's this tendency when people hear stem cell research to

786
00:42:49.800 --> 00:42:52.360
<v Speaker 3>think of all this controversy that I remember when I

787
00:42:52.400 --> 00:42:54.719
<v Speaker 3>was growing up. The good news is is that a

788
00:42:54.719 --> 00:42:58.760
<v Speaker 3>lot of embryonic stem cell research doesn't rely on donor

789
00:42:58.840 --> 00:43:03.239
<v Speaker 3>samples from terminated pregnancies. There are some embryonic stem cell

790
00:43:03.320 --> 00:43:08.360
<v Speaker 3>lines that were made from terminated pregnancies years ago, and

791
00:43:08.440 --> 00:43:11.719
<v Speaker 3>so it's not continue donation needed, it's we have those

792
00:43:11.960 --> 00:43:14.159
<v Speaker 3>immortalized lines and we can use them and study them

793
00:43:14.440 --> 00:43:17.400
<v Speaker 3>from that same original donation. And then there are also

794
00:43:17.440 --> 00:43:20.360
<v Speaker 3>there's also this induced plury potent stem cell research, which

795
00:43:20.519 --> 00:43:23.159
<v Speaker 3>can be made from adult cells and then you revert

796
00:43:23.199 --> 00:43:26.360
<v Speaker 3>them back. We can use other model organisms as well,

797
00:43:26.599 --> 00:43:28.519
<v Speaker 3>and then a really neat thing. You'll find a lot

798
00:43:28.519 --> 00:43:31.320
<v Speaker 3>of stem cell biologists who partner with different hospitals, and

799
00:43:31.440 --> 00:43:34.880
<v Speaker 3>let's say you're having a tumor biop seed or some

800
00:43:35.119 --> 00:43:38.559
<v Speaker 3>sample biop seed for whatever medical reason, then that tissue

801
00:43:38.559 --> 00:43:40.880
<v Speaker 3>from an adult can be used as well. My friends

802
00:43:40.920 --> 00:43:44.000
<v Speaker 3>who've recently given birth, they haven't been asked about donating

803
00:43:44.119 --> 00:43:47.039
<v Speaker 3>cord blood or anything like it. It is often something

804
00:43:47.079 --> 00:43:49.880
<v Speaker 3>you have to bring up. Ye, it definitely can be helpful,

805
00:43:49.960 --> 00:43:53.000
<v Speaker 3>but the majority of stem cell research doesn't require that,

806
00:43:53.119 --> 00:43:55.559
<v Speaker 3>and there are lots of ways around it if it's

807
00:43:55.599 --> 00:43:58.599
<v Speaker 3>not available. And then as adults too, you can donate

808
00:43:58.639 --> 00:44:02.199
<v Speaker 3>stem cells for research from the bone marrow, which can

809
00:44:02.239 --> 00:44:05.440
<v Speaker 3>be intense but incredibly life saving and great for research.

810
00:44:05.800 --> 00:44:08.760
<v Speaker 3>And then even there are some skin biopsy procedures and

811
00:44:08.760 --> 00:44:12.519
<v Speaker 3>other biopsy procedures that are minimally invasive that can help

812
00:44:12.920 --> 00:44:15.760
<v Speaker 3>a lot with research. So if folks want a credible

813
00:44:15.800 --> 00:44:18.440
<v Speaker 3>source to learn more, you can go on the website

814
00:44:18.599 --> 00:44:22.079
<v Speaker 3>closer look at stem cells dot org. That's a reputable

815
00:44:22.119 --> 00:44:25.800
<v Speaker 3>source from the International Society for stem Cell Research, and

816
00:44:25.840 --> 00:44:28.559
<v Speaker 3>they explain all about participating in stem cell research by

817
00:44:28.559 --> 00:44:31.280
<v Speaker 3>donating cells because they'll just make more of themselves. So

818
00:44:31.320 --> 00:44:34.280
<v Speaker 3>it's all good plenty.

819
00:44:34.440 --> 00:44:37.360
<v Speaker 2>Can I ask you questions from patrons? Yeah, of course,

820
00:44:37.719 --> 00:44:41.159
<v Speaker 2>but before we do, let's distribute some good via donations

821
00:44:41.199 --> 00:44:43.079
<v Speaker 2>in honor of our guests. So the first donation is

822
00:44:43.119 --> 00:44:44.920
<v Speaker 2>going to a closer look at stem cells dot org,

823
00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:47.800
<v Speaker 2>run by the International Society for stem Cell Research, which

824
00:44:47.840 --> 00:44:52.000
<v Speaker 2>fosters solid scientific info about stem cells and encourages research.

825
00:44:52.400 --> 00:44:55.760
<v Speaker 2>And since this is an episode about things splitting off.

826
00:44:56.039 --> 00:44:58.840
<v Speaker 2>We'll do another donation of Sam's choice, which is the

827
00:44:59.000 --> 00:45:02.320
<v Speaker 2>Marsha P. Johnson Institute, which protects and defends the human

828
00:45:02.400 --> 00:45:06.639
<v Speaker 2>rights of black transgender people by organizing, advocating, creating an

829
00:45:06.679 --> 00:45:10.519
<v Speaker 2>intentional community to heal, and promoting their collective power. Because

830
00:45:10.599 --> 00:45:13.400
<v Speaker 2>Sam says black trans lives matter, drag is not a

831
00:45:13.400 --> 00:45:16.480
<v Speaker 2>crime and Marsha pay No Mind. Johnson is forever an icon.

832
00:45:16.639 --> 00:45:18.719
<v Speaker 2>So you'll find links to both causes in the show notes.

833
00:45:18.719 --> 00:45:22.400
<v Speaker 2>And those donations were made possible by sponsors of ologies.

834
00:45:22.519 --> 00:45:27.239
<v Speaker 1>Bianantonma got boga Onnlu the haartnir, the Holla, the haman

835
00:45:27.480 --> 00:45:33.480
<v Speaker 1>heco ah ersuen or raslance LADENI detained, Knudovshu will kill

836
00:45:33.559 --> 00:45:37.840
<v Speaker 1>Nakatarhu La Hula chomperods on uderos or ros lanse is

837
00:45:37.920 --> 00:45:44.639
<v Speaker 1>Phaser Latgan's throw, Tasha Tapa, Siranashka Agustnava is FuGO more

838
00:45:45.639 --> 00:45:49.199
<v Speaker 1>heyrick h i A punk Ie is called rilola a

839
00:45:49.320 --> 00:45:52.119
<v Speaker 1>on tudoros or Raslonsea. If we realed this in the hearn.

840
00:45:52.880 --> 00:45:56.480
<v Speaker 2>Okay, let's have your brains ask my brain to ask

841
00:45:56.559 --> 00:46:01.440
<v Speaker 2>Sam's brain questions. I thought k Pelis Casayas, Chandler, Wutherington,

842
00:46:01.840 --> 00:46:05.239
<v Speaker 2>Paul Bruno, and url shol Peleg had a great question,

843
00:46:06.079 --> 00:46:08.960
<v Speaker 2>how do they know what to do? How do these

844
00:46:09.000 --> 00:46:10.039
<v Speaker 2>cells know what they're doing?

845
00:46:11.280 --> 00:46:13.679
<v Speaker 3>That's great? How do any of us know what we're doing?

846
00:46:13.880 --> 00:46:18.159
<v Speaker 3>Is a great question. This is where the stem cell

847
00:46:18.360 --> 00:46:21.320
<v Speaker 3>niche is. The home of the stem cell is very

848
00:46:21.360 --> 00:46:25.960
<v Speaker 3>important because it can often send signals. And that's a

849
00:46:26.039 --> 00:46:29.199
<v Speaker 3>bit again philosophical, because if a stem cell leaves its niche,

850
00:46:29.320 --> 00:46:31.639
<v Speaker 3>it might be missing the signals to even stay a

851
00:46:31.679 --> 00:46:34.159
<v Speaker 3>stem cell. But the simple way is that there are

852
00:46:34.400 --> 00:46:37.800
<v Speaker 3>often external cues. But it's a huge question in the

853
00:46:37.880 --> 00:46:41.119
<v Speaker 3>field to know what those key factors are. And this

854
00:46:41.880 --> 00:46:45.119
<v Speaker 3>discovery of induced pluripotent stem cells has helped us do

855
00:46:45.239 --> 00:46:47.519
<v Speaker 3>a lot of that research in a dish because now

856
00:46:48.039 --> 00:46:52.760
<v Speaker 3>by watching whatever signaling happens in the body, we can

857
00:46:52.800 --> 00:46:54.920
<v Speaker 3>start to see, okay, what was actually needed to become

858
00:46:54.960 --> 00:46:58.679
<v Speaker 3>a neuron versus a muscle cell, and you start adding

859
00:46:58.719 --> 00:47:00.559
<v Speaker 3>it in the dish and seeing, okay, well, when I

860
00:47:00.559 --> 00:47:03.079
<v Speaker 3>add a lot of this thing, I get more muscle.

861
00:47:03.239 --> 00:47:05.119
<v Speaker 3>So now we know that that's important.

862
00:47:05.440 --> 00:47:08.679
<v Speaker 2>So the external cues from the location of the stem

863
00:47:08.800 --> 00:47:11.679
<v Speaker 2>cell can influence what type of cell it becomes. Like,

864
00:47:11.880 --> 00:47:15.039
<v Speaker 2>let's say you're a great answer, but your moves are

865
00:47:15.119 --> 00:47:17.920
<v Speaker 2>going to vary depending on if you're sober at your

866
00:47:17.960 --> 00:47:21.760
<v Speaker 2>aunt's second wedding or dizzy from a flask of pop

867
00:47:21.800 --> 00:47:24.679
<v Speaker 2>off at a disco. Jacqueline Church had a good question

868
00:47:24.800 --> 00:47:27.760
<v Speaker 2>about the news of like a rare disease cured by

869
00:47:27.840 --> 00:47:31.880
<v Speaker 2>stem cell therapy. Oftentimes accompanies how much it costs, like

870
00:47:31.960 --> 00:47:36.079
<v Speaker 2>millions of dollars, but wanted to know what makes stem

871
00:47:36.159 --> 00:47:37.679
<v Speaker 2>cell therapy so expensive.

872
00:47:38.199 --> 00:47:40.639
<v Speaker 3>It is a major limiting thing in the field. Just

873
00:47:40.760 --> 00:47:43.840
<v Speaker 3>how expensive the research itself is. A lot of that

874
00:47:44.000 --> 00:47:48.039
<v Speaker 3>has to do with our bodies develop over nine ten

875
00:47:48.159 --> 00:47:52.199
<v Speaker 3>months and then they continue developing and growing over the

876
00:47:52.280 --> 00:47:55.679
<v Speaker 3>span of our early lives. Trying to do that in

877
00:47:55.800 --> 00:47:59.159
<v Speaker 3>a dish is expensive because you're adding in all these

878
00:47:59.239 --> 00:48:02.920
<v Speaker 3>factors that are body naturally produces, and you're purifying them,

879
00:48:02.960 --> 00:48:06.800
<v Speaker 3>and you're testing everything, and so that process of making

880
00:48:06.920 --> 00:48:10.440
<v Speaker 3>the cells in a dish is a large part of

881
00:48:10.519 --> 00:48:13.440
<v Speaker 3>the cost. And if you're also trying to make them

882
00:48:13.679 --> 00:48:16.760
<v Speaker 3>patients specific in some way, which generally we don't because

883
00:48:16.760 --> 00:48:19.280
<v Speaker 3>it's not sustainable. But if I did want to make

884
00:48:19.480 --> 00:48:24.440
<v Speaker 3>an alley Ward stem cell. Oh, hello, right, and it's

885
00:48:24.519 --> 00:48:27.440
<v Speaker 3>all tailored to you. That would make it even more expensive.

886
00:48:28.039 --> 00:48:30.760
<v Speaker 3>It can take over a month and even a few

887
00:48:30.840 --> 00:48:32.920
<v Speaker 3>months just to go from a stem cell to a

888
00:48:33.000 --> 00:48:35.960
<v Speaker 3>mature human cell in a dish, and all through that

889
00:48:36.599 --> 00:48:40.440
<v Speaker 3>you're adding all these expensive things that are biomedical grade,

890
00:48:40.880 --> 00:48:43.000
<v Speaker 3>not to mention all the people who have to watch

891
00:48:43.079 --> 00:48:44.840
<v Speaker 3>over them, like every two days you have to go

892
00:48:45.000 --> 00:48:48.880
<v Speaker 3>and adjust the conditions of the cells. So that's a big,

893
00:48:48.960 --> 00:48:49.960
<v Speaker 3>big part of the cost.

894
00:48:50.239 --> 00:48:54.599
<v Speaker 2>So if you've heard the term atologous stem cell transplant,

895
00:48:54.920 --> 00:48:58.480
<v Speaker 2>that means a patient's own stem cells are extracted from

896
00:48:58.519 --> 00:49:02.960
<v Speaker 2>the blood. And I tried to find the just the

897
00:49:03.079 --> 00:49:05.320
<v Speaker 2>cost on these what are we talking and kind of

898
00:49:05.519 --> 00:49:07.920
<v Speaker 2>like a handbag that I never want to own. The

899
00:49:08.039 --> 00:49:11.840
<v Speaker 2>prices were high and also dicey, So I found articles

900
00:49:12.079 --> 00:49:15.760
<v Speaker 2>saying anywhere between ten thousand to eight hundred thousand dollars.

901
00:49:16.239 --> 00:49:21.199
<v Speaker 2>And insurance will sometimes cover proven therapies, like for blood cancer,

902
00:49:21.639 --> 00:49:25.159
<v Speaker 2>but if a stem cell transplant is deemed experimental for

903
00:49:25.280 --> 00:49:30.840
<v Speaker 2>your condition, you better start gofund me yesterday. Now, what

904
00:49:30.960 --> 00:49:34.440
<v Speaker 2>does a stem cell transplant even involve? You asked, so

905
00:49:34.679 --> 00:49:39.800
<v Speaker 2>patrons Olivia Anderson Kaiju Samolier, Matty s Kaisis Sword, a

906
00:49:39.920 --> 00:49:43.920
<v Speaker 2>survivor of non Hodgkin's lymphoma, and Kate Tim's, Andy Jewett

907
00:49:43.960 --> 00:49:46.920
<v Speaker 2>and Heather m whose pop also has my loma, and

908
00:49:47.639 --> 00:49:51.320
<v Speaker 2>Emily Stuffer and a bunch of other people asked about

909
00:49:51.639 --> 00:49:55.559
<v Speaker 2>stem cell transplants, and Emily wrote, as part of my

910
00:49:55.639 --> 00:49:58.559
<v Speaker 2>dad's cancer treatment mantle cell lymphoma, they were looking into

911
00:49:58.599 --> 00:50:02.440
<v Speaker 2>a stem cell transplant and basically they're going to use

912
00:50:02.480 --> 00:50:05.719
<v Speaker 2>it on stem cells and wanted to know how does

913
00:50:05.800 --> 00:50:08.000
<v Speaker 2>this work and why does it work? What does that

914
00:50:08.159 --> 00:50:09.039
<v Speaker 2>involve exactly?

915
00:50:09.360 --> 00:50:13.559
<v Speaker 3>Now, typically the stem cell therapies and stem cell transplants

916
00:50:13.840 --> 00:50:18.400
<v Speaker 3>that are routinely used are those related to blood conditions,

917
00:50:18.960 --> 00:50:23.000
<v Speaker 3>so blood cancers or immune conditions, because immune is all

918
00:50:23.000 --> 00:50:27.840
<v Speaker 3>about the blood as well. So that would typically entail

919
00:50:28.559 --> 00:50:31.920
<v Speaker 3>refreshing the stem cells you have. And again we're focused

920
00:50:31.920 --> 00:50:33.239
<v Speaker 3>on the blood here because those are the ones that

921
00:50:33.320 --> 00:50:36.840
<v Speaker 3>are used in clinics today. So it might involve some

922
00:50:37.039 --> 00:50:41.280
<v Speaker 3>amount of chemotherapy to kill off all of your current

923
00:50:41.639 --> 00:50:45.119
<v Speaker 3>or many of your current blood cells and to try

924
00:50:45.159 --> 00:50:47.920
<v Speaker 3>to deplete the stem cells as much as possible, and

925
00:50:48.000 --> 00:50:52.239
<v Speaker 3>then a transplant of new maybe donor blood stem cells

926
00:50:52.280 --> 00:50:55.480
<v Speaker 3>that can repopulate your blood with cells that don't have

927
00:50:55.679 --> 00:51:00.639
<v Speaker 3>whatever mutation or issue you're experiencing. And something being tested

928
00:51:00.920 --> 00:51:04.039
<v Speaker 3>is that we could take someone's own cells and correct

929
00:51:04.440 --> 00:51:08.079
<v Speaker 3>whatever mutation there might be that's causing the disease and

930
00:51:08.159 --> 00:51:10.760
<v Speaker 3>then put them back in. But it's really tricky, and

931
00:51:10.920 --> 00:51:13.119
<v Speaker 3>the reason you can only do it in blood is

932
00:51:13.280 --> 00:51:16.280
<v Speaker 3>because you can get blood out, but you can't just

933
00:51:16.440 --> 00:51:19.440
<v Speaker 3>take out a whole solid tissue and replace all this.

934
00:51:19.679 --> 00:51:22.559
<v Speaker 3>It's much much harder to do. So that's why it's

935
00:51:22.679 --> 00:51:27.159
<v Speaker 3>very limited in which diseases stem cell transplants can actually

936
00:51:27.239 --> 00:51:30.519
<v Speaker 3>work for. And I encourage folks to look at closer,

937
00:51:30.559 --> 00:51:33.519
<v Speaker 3>look at stem cells dot org to learn more and

938
00:51:33.639 --> 00:51:35.760
<v Speaker 3>to learn what types of questions to ask to make

939
00:51:35.840 --> 00:51:39.039
<v Speaker 3>sure that it's the type of therapy or transplant that

940
00:51:39.079 --> 00:51:40.599
<v Speaker 3>will be more helpful than harmful.

941
00:51:41.199 --> 00:51:44.760
<v Speaker 2>And some folks asked about nerve damage justice left in

942
00:51:45.000 --> 00:51:50.320
<v Speaker 2>Crystal Wilson. Jerry Hoffmeister asked about nerve damage or neuropathy

943
00:51:51.000 --> 00:51:53.559
<v Speaker 2>and stem cells. Crystal Wilson says, I got stem cells

944
00:51:53.599 --> 00:51:56.519
<v Speaker 2>injected into my ankle after nerve damage. How am I healed?

945
00:51:56.840 --> 00:52:01.199
<v Speaker 3>When it comes to peripheral nerves it's just like the edges,

946
00:52:01.280 --> 00:52:04.119
<v Speaker 3>the very very edges of the nerves can sometimes regenerate,

947
00:52:04.639 --> 00:52:07.519
<v Speaker 3>and in those cases you might not need stem cells.

948
00:52:07.559 --> 00:52:10.119
<v Speaker 3>You might just need to know what factors can stimulate

949
00:52:10.199 --> 00:52:13.159
<v Speaker 3>that regeneration, or that it might not be possible. There

950
00:52:13.199 --> 00:52:15.639
<v Speaker 3>might be a limited window of time, So even things

951
00:52:15.760 --> 00:52:19.519
<v Speaker 3>like exercise could potentially stimulate and maybe doing it under

952
00:52:19.599 --> 00:52:22.480
<v Speaker 3>the supervision of a physiotherapist who's not going to push

953
00:52:22.519 --> 00:52:24.960
<v Speaker 3>things too hard, of course, But so there are things

954
00:52:25.039 --> 00:52:28.719
<v Speaker 3>like that where that could be what's helping, because your

955
00:52:29.519 --> 00:52:33.119
<v Speaker 3>exercise could be inducing some kind of signals to happen

956
00:52:33.199 --> 00:52:35.880
<v Speaker 3>to that in that area that could help maybe with

957
00:52:36.000 --> 00:52:38.480
<v Speaker 3>some level of regeneration. I'm not saying that's exactly what

958
00:52:38.559 --> 00:52:41.039
<v Speaker 3>happened in this person's case. One of the things people

959
00:52:41.360 --> 00:52:44.559
<v Speaker 3>have studied is does exercise stimulate stem cells? Maybe, but

960
00:52:44.639 --> 00:52:46.440
<v Speaker 3>I think in this case it's probably that there's some

961
00:52:46.519 --> 00:52:51.639
<v Speaker 3>inflammation and maybe whatever happened in that person's case was

962
00:52:51.920 --> 00:52:54.679
<v Speaker 3>stimulating some sort of nerve regeneration and it was more

963
00:52:54.679 --> 00:52:57.960
<v Speaker 3>about the signals rather than new cells in that case.

964
00:52:58.239 --> 00:53:02.719
<v Speaker 3>When it comes to joint conditions, I would say there

965
00:53:02.920 --> 00:53:07.480
<v Speaker 3>are no known stem cell based therapies and so it'd

966
00:53:07.559 --> 00:53:09.800
<v Speaker 3>be really great to have a chat with your doctor,

967
00:53:09.920 --> 00:53:12.559
<v Speaker 3>find a good physio who can give some advice, because

968
00:53:12.599 --> 00:53:15.199
<v Speaker 3>there are other really cool approaches. Stem cells are great,

969
00:53:15.280 --> 00:53:16.079
<v Speaker 3>but not for everything.

970
00:53:16.400 --> 00:53:21.360
<v Speaker 2>Right and again, in the Chunicular Traumatology episode about bad knees,

971
00:53:21.760 --> 00:53:25.400
<v Speaker 2>we chatted about how my brand new husband jareded shredded

972
00:53:25.480 --> 00:53:28.639
<v Speaker 2>his ACL in a jiu jitsu accident and had to

973
00:53:28.679 --> 00:53:32.559
<v Speaker 2>get ACL surgery and he was in physical therapy right away.

974
00:53:32.639 --> 00:53:35.559
<v Speaker 2>I want to say the day after surgery. Now, did

975
00:53:35.639 --> 00:53:39.039
<v Speaker 2>that promote stem cells? Because his knees doing great now?

976
00:53:39.400 --> 00:53:41.079
<v Speaker 2>So I look this up and I found a twenty

977
00:53:41.239 --> 00:53:45.360
<v Speaker 2>twenty two study called Molecular Mechanisms of Exercise Contributing to

978
00:53:45.440 --> 00:53:49.760
<v Speaker 2>Tissue Regeneration in the journal Nature, And sure enough it's

979
00:53:51.119 --> 00:53:55.079
<v Speaker 2>this whole study is just like a kind hearted scientist

980
00:53:55.239 --> 00:53:59.480
<v Speaker 2>bending down into your face and whispering through a bullhorn

981
00:53:59.719 --> 00:54:02.159
<v Speaker 2>to get your ass to the gym or to the trails,

982
00:54:02.280 --> 00:54:05.920
<v Speaker 2>or your water aerobics or arm lifts or literally anything

983
00:54:05.960 --> 00:54:09.599
<v Speaker 2>you can do to keep moving. Because physical activity, according

984
00:54:09.599 --> 00:54:15.679
<v Speaker 2>to the study, enhances hippocampal neurogenesis. It can improve sensory

985
00:54:15.920 --> 00:54:19.360
<v Speaker 2>and motor functions after spinal cord injury. It can promote

986
00:54:19.480 --> 00:54:23.360
<v Speaker 2>the survival of transplanet stem cells, can help relieve the

987
00:54:23.519 --> 00:54:28.480
<v Speaker 2>pain of neuropathy in peripheral nerves, and promote stem cells

988
00:54:28.639 --> 00:54:31.159
<v Speaker 2>in the blood. It can regulate stem cells in your bone.

989
00:54:31.440 --> 00:54:35.960
<v Speaker 2>It's just really good for you. So if you can move, move,

990
00:54:36.800 --> 00:54:40.159
<v Speaker 2>dance in the living room, garden, walk to the magazine,

991
00:54:40.239 --> 00:54:44.159
<v Speaker 2>stand on the corner, read some trashy mags, watch kettlebell

992
00:54:44.360 --> 00:54:48.760
<v Speaker 2>YouTube videos. I don't know, move some logs around the yard.

993
00:54:49.119 --> 00:54:51.800
<v Speaker 2>Your future self is thanking you for all the extra

994
00:54:51.920 --> 00:54:56.480
<v Speaker 2>stem cells and years. What about aging? Linus stout first

995
00:54:56.480 --> 00:54:59.920
<v Speaker 2>time question asker, and isabel wanted to know. In Lina's words, Okay,

996
00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:02.320
<v Speaker 2>I've heard that rich people freezer stem cells to make

997
00:55:02.360 --> 00:55:05.199
<v Speaker 2>them young again. Does that work? Can you reset yourself

998
00:55:05.360 --> 00:55:08.119
<v Speaker 2>like a computer? And Isabelle wanted to know is it

999
00:55:08.159 --> 00:55:11.559
<v Speaker 2>possible to use telomerase to reverse aging and extend a

1000
00:55:11.639 --> 00:55:16.039
<v Speaker 2>person's lifespan? What's going on with like a fountain of

1001
00:55:16.119 --> 00:55:17.719
<v Speaker 2>youth full of stem cells.

1002
00:55:19.519 --> 00:55:23.719
<v Speaker 3>Love this question because it reminds me during my PhD

1003
00:55:23.920 --> 00:55:27.320
<v Speaker 3>when we would have these long debates of what is aging?

1004
00:55:27.679 --> 00:55:29.840
<v Speaker 3>Can you define aging? Like? What is it on a

1005
00:55:29.880 --> 00:55:34.760
<v Speaker 3>cellular level? We don't really know, and it's a very

1006
00:55:34.960 --> 00:55:38.159
<v Speaker 3>hard thing to define, which blows my mind because we

1007
00:55:38.199 --> 00:55:41.440
<v Speaker 3>all know what it is, but to define it biologically

1008
00:55:41.840 --> 00:55:45.559
<v Speaker 3>no clue. Anyway. There have been some kind of gnarly

1009
00:55:45.679 --> 00:55:49.639
<v Speaker 3>experiments for then. I won't explain them in detail, but

1010
00:55:49.760 --> 00:55:53.079
<v Speaker 3>basically where you got youthful blood flowing into an older

1011
00:55:53.159 --> 00:55:57.280
<v Speaker 3>age animal and it did seem that there was some

1012
00:55:58.039 --> 00:56:00.679
<v Speaker 3>reversal of some signs of aging.

1013
00:56:01.280 --> 00:56:03.400
<v Speaker 2>Freeze my young blood.

1014
00:56:03.719 --> 00:56:08.480
<v Speaker 3>What I do that ever? No, And again, the interesting

1015
00:56:08.519 --> 00:56:11.360
<v Speaker 3>thing about stem cells is sure they're very cool in

1016
00:56:11.440 --> 00:56:13.480
<v Speaker 3>a dish when we study them, or in the body

1017
00:56:14.239 --> 00:56:17.039
<v Speaker 3>when they're there from development and they're happy and they're

1018
00:56:17.079 --> 00:56:19.960
<v Speaker 3>in their home. A really tricky thing going into the

1019
00:56:20.039 --> 00:56:23.280
<v Speaker 3>future is how do you get stem cells to where

1020
00:56:23.320 --> 00:56:26.159
<v Speaker 3>they need to be? How do you deliver them and

1021
00:56:26.320 --> 00:56:29.840
<v Speaker 3>have them survive that delivery because cells don't really like

1022
00:56:29.920 --> 00:56:31.920
<v Speaker 3>to be pushed through a needle in an injection, So

1023
00:56:32.320 --> 00:56:34.519
<v Speaker 3>there's all sorts of engineers trying to find ways to

1024
00:56:34.599 --> 00:56:37.599
<v Speaker 3>deliver stem cells and fancy gels so that they're happy

1025
00:56:37.679 --> 00:56:41.719
<v Speaker 3>and survive. So delivery survival is super hard, and then

1026
00:56:41.760 --> 00:56:44.159
<v Speaker 3>the next part is integrating how do you get them

1027
00:56:44.199 --> 00:56:47.280
<v Speaker 3>to actually do the thing they need to do. If

1028
00:56:47.360 --> 00:56:49.519
<v Speaker 3>you look at the back of your TV or computer,

1029
00:56:49.679 --> 00:56:52.639
<v Speaker 3>you have wires everywhere. If you just throw more wires,

1030
00:56:53.000 --> 00:56:55.519
<v Speaker 3>it wouldn't solve your tech issues. Need to be in

1031
00:56:55.599 --> 00:56:58.760
<v Speaker 3>the right spot. So how do you get the stem

1032
00:56:58.840 --> 00:57:01.519
<v Speaker 3>cell to do the right thing. So we're not at

1033
00:57:01.559 --> 00:57:04.079
<v Speaker 3>the stage where we know how to take a young

1034
00:57:04.239 --> 00:57:06.239
<v Speaker 3>stem cell or a stem cell that you bank when

1035
00:57:06.280 --> 00:57:11.159
<v Speaker 3>you're like fifteen, and get it to reverse aging. It

1036
00:57:11.280 --> 00:57:14.599
<v Speaker 3>is a goal for some people, but how that can

1037
00:57:14.639 --> 00:57:18.119
<v Speaker 3>be done is tricky, and I think banking stem cells

1038
00:57:18.239 --> 00:57:21.679
<v Speaker 3>towards research is probably a much more effective thing to do.

1039
00:57:23.159 --> 00:57:27.239
<v Speaker 2>You mentioned a gel and a lot of folks Don Ewald,

1040
00:57:27.519 --> 00:57:33.239
<v Speaker 2>Jules Rilla, Chris Grace, Robischow, and Catherine Lapinski wanted to

1041
00:57:33.360 --> 00:57:36.400
<v Speaker 2>know in Jewels words, do the over the counter stem

1042
00:57:36.480 --> 00:57:40.239
<v Speaker 2>cell facial serums and creams actually work. Chris Brewer says,

1043
00:57:40.400 --> 00:57:43.239
<v Speaker 2>what's up with Oprah's face cream? I heard there's human

1044
00:57:43.320 --> 00:57:47.920
<v Speaker 2>foreskin in it which contains stem cells. Lena Statt was

1045
00:57:47.960 --> 00:57:52.639
<v Speaker 2>horrified by that as well. Anny, is there room to

1046
00:57:52.800 --> 00:57:53.719
<v Speaker 2>bust some flin flam?

1047
00:57:54.280 --> 00:57:58.719
<v Speaker 3>Thinking, oh absolutely, I am a skincarew girly. I have

1048
00:57:58.880 --> 00:58:01.920
<v Speaker 3>like a ten step routine and I cycle, and I'm

1049
00:58:02.079 --> 00:58:05.440
<v Speaker 3>all about the skincare. So I got you. I will

1050
00:58:05.480 --> 00:58:08.519
<v Speaker 3>tell you I have many I have a rotating wheel

1051
00:58:08.559 --> 00:58:12.239
<v Speaker 3>of skincare products, and not one mentioned stem cells. So

1052
00:58:13.000 --> 00:58:16.960
<v Speaker 3>I don't spend my money on that. Stem cells are

1053
00:58:17.079 --> 00:58:19.159
<v Speaker 3>so hard to grow, Like, how could you get them

1054
00:58:19.159 --> 00:58:20.880
<v Speaker 3>to survive in a dish? First of all? What would

1055
00:58:20.880 --> 00:58:23.360
<v Speaker 3>putting them on your face even do? I don't know

1056
00:58:23.480 --> 00:58:25.880
<v Speaker 3>that any of these are trying to suggest that there

1057
00:58:25.920 --> 00:58:29.079
<v Speaker 3>are stem cells in the cream, but I don't get, like,

1058
00:58:29.480 --> 00:58:31.920
<v Speaker 3>what does that mean? Like I guess with Oprah's there

1059
00:58:32.000 --> 00:58:35.639
<v Speaker 3>are maybe foreskin cells. I doubt it. I'm assuming there

1060
00:58:35.679 --> 00:58:41.079
<v Speaker 3>are like things that the foreskin would secrete because foreskin's

1061
00:58:41.159 --> 00:58:44.880
<v Speaker 3>usually youthful skin. That's the logic. It's like, if it's

1062
00:58:44.920 --> 00:58:49.719
<v Speaker 3>from a circumcision that happened near birth, it's youthful skin.

1063
00:58:50.159 --> 00:58:53.280
<v Speaker 3>So is youthful skin secreting things that will make our

1064
00:58:53.400 --> 00:58:58.519
<v Speaker 3>skin youthful too? Maybe? But I would just rather put

1065
00:58:58.599 --> 00:59:02.199
<v Speaker 3>retinal on my personally.

1066
00:59:02.880 --> 00:59:05.519
<v Speaker 2>Oh boy, okay, so rest in peace. My Google search

1067
00:59:05.599 --> 00:59:08.920
<v Speaker 2>history again, because this was a deep dive into some

1068
00:59:09.079 --> 00:59:11.920
<v Speaker 2>medical caverns I did not need to visit. But I'm

1069
00:59:11.920 --> 00:59:14.360
<v Speaker 2>going to give you the briefest of lowdowns so yes.

1070
00:59:14.440 --> 00:59:17.039
<v Speaker 2>In twenty thirteen, Oprah Winfrey was in the hot seat

1071
00:59:17.199 --> 00:59:21.880
<v Speaker 2>for recommending this cosmetic cream called skin Medica, and not

1072
00:59:22.000 --> 00:59:24.239
<v Speaker 2>simply because it costs two hundred and fifty bucks an ounce,

1073
00:59:24.320 --> 00:59:27.960
<v Speaker 2>but because folks got wind that skin Medica founder, a

1074
00:59:28.079 --> 00:59:32.960
<v Speaker 2>San Diego based dermatologist named doctor Richard Fitzpatrick, had used

1075
00:59:33.199 --> 00:59:37.400
<v Speaker 2>human fibroblasts, which help with wound healing and collagen production,

1076
00:59:38.119 --> 00:59:42.039
<v Speaker 2>in his signature cream. Now. His previous forays into this

1077
00:59:42.159 --> 00:59:45.599
<v Speaker 2>science involved working with a company called Advanced Tissue Sciences,

1078
00:59:45.679 --> 00:59:49.840
<v Speaker 2>which was trying to grow human skin for diabetic patients

1079
00:59:50.079 --> 00:59:53.920
<v Speaker 2>and people recovering from burns. Now, at the time of

1080
00:59:54.199 --> 00:59:58.039
<v Speaker 2>the Oprah controversy, doctor Fitzpatrick kind of poop pooed it,

1081
00:59:58.119 --> 01:00:02.159
<v Speaker 2>and he explained all those fiber blasts were from one foreskin.

1082
01:00:02.519 --> 01:00:06.480
<v Speaker 2>It was obtained decades before. Also, he passed away about

1083
01:00:06.480 --> 01:00:09.519
<v Speaker 2>a year after all of this controversy, and I tried

1084
01:00:09.519 --> 01:00:12.800
<v Speaker 2>to figure out via his very sweet obituary if maybe

1085
01:00:13.519 --> 01:00:17.400
<v Speaker 2>maybe the foreskin was his son's, but the timing didn't

1086
01:00:17.400 --> 01:00:21.119
<v Speaker 2>match up, So I went back back back into some

1087
01:00:21.320 --> 01:00:26.239
<v Speaker 2>dusty libraries decades old studies and found that the foreskins

1088
01:00:26.280 --> 01:00:29.599
<v Speaker 2>in question number one, I found a study that mentioned

1089
01:00:29.960 --> 01:00:33.239
<v Speaker 2>foreskins plural, I don't know, but they were quote obtained

1090
01:00:33.480 --> 01:00:39.760
<v Speaker 2>through routine infant circumcision. So kind of sounds like cooking

1091
01:00:39.840 --> 01:00:42.199
<v Speaker 2>up a soup with stuff that was going to go

1092
01:00:42.280 --> 01:00:44.960
<v Speaker 2>in the compost bin. But I really thought I would

1093
01:00:45.000 --> 01:00:48.800
<v Speaker 2>be busting face cream, foreskin flim flam. But here I am.

1094
01:00:48.960 --> 01:00:52.199
<v Speaker 2>I'm just here to converm it. It's true, but with

1095
01:00:52.360 --> 01:00:57.320
<v Speaker 2>the caveat that it was just supposedly one very productive

1096
01:00:57.400 --> 01:01:00.519
<v Speaker 2>foreskin that someone was going to throw away anyway, and

1097
01:01:00.599 --> 01:01:04.960
<v Speaker 2>the parents donated it. Again ethics, I highly doubt they

1098
01:01:05.039 --> 01:01:08.159
<v Speaker 2>asked the baby, But I looked for literal hours to

1099
01:01:08.280 --> 01:01:11.360
<v Speaker 2>try and track down who that baby might be, because one,

1100
01:01:12.039 --> 01:01:15.119
<v Speaker 2>I wonder if they know that they are on Oprah's

1101
01:01:15.360 --> 01:01:18.800
<v Speaker 2>face kind of And two does there now adult dick

1102
01:01:19.000 --> 01:01:23.119
<v Speaker 2>get any royalties? I mean, I get are like residuals

1103
01:01:23.800 --> 01:01:24.880
<v Speaker 2>from the cream.

1104
01:01:27.199 --> 01:01:29.480
<v Speaker 1>Face she knows.

1105
01:01:29.800 --> 01:01:33.360
<v Speaker 2>She knows also times change, and I don't know if

1106
01:01:33.440 --> 01:01:36.840
<v Speaker 2>Oprah still uses that cream. But her longtime makeup artist,

1107
01:01:37.280 --> 01:01:41.239
<v Speaker 2>Derek Rutlitch has launched a line called Aura Glos Serum

1108
01:01:41.519 --> 01:01:44.239
<v Speaker 2>and it's full of plant based ingredients, and it's said

1109
01:01:44.320 --> 01:01:48.000
<v Speaker 2>to impart a lit from within radiance. And it should

1110
01:01:48.000 --> 01:01:50.920
<v Speaker 2>also be noted that Derek sixty two years of age

1111
01:01:51.239 --> 01:01:55.280
<v Speaker 2>appears to be immortal. I would have guessed thirty one tops.

1112
01:01:55.559 --> 01:02:00.559
<v Speaker 2>So it's foreskin derived fibroblasts versus tannicles.

1113
01:02:00.880 --> 01:02:04.519
<v Speaker 3>And then there are others creams that say plant stem cells,

1114
01:02:04.639 --> 01:02:07.000
<v Speaker 3>which makes me laugh really hard because I'm like, do

1115
01:02:07.039 --> 01:02:08.159
<v Speaker 3>you mean from the stem?

1116
01:02:10.119 --> 01:02:14.800
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, Well, yeah, do do only mammals? Do

1117
01:02:14.960 --> 01:02:18.239
<v Speaker 2>only chordates? Like who has stem cells? I should have

1118
01:02:18.280 --> 01:02:21.760
<v Speaker 2>asked this way earlier, But oh, do plants have stem cells?

1119
01:02:21.840 --> 01:02:25.239
<v Speaker 3>Plants have stem cells. They behave a little differently, but

1120
01:02:25.360 --> 01:02:27.519
<v Speaker 3>they do have stem cells. But then they also have

1121
01:02:27.679 --> 01:02:30.440
<v Speaker 3>like a stem. So I'm always like, are those creams

1122
01:02:30.639 --> 01:02:34.320
<v Speaker 3>referring to like they're just from the stem cells? I

1123
01:02:34.400 --> 01:02:37.960
<v Speaker 3>don't know. I don't I think that we could learn

1124
01:02:38.039 --> 01:02:42.320
<v Speaker 3>from stem cells how to make cool skincare and how

1125
01:02:42.599 --> 01:02:45.679
<v Speaker 3>skin regenerates. We can certainly learn that from stem cells,

1126
01:02:45.719 --> 01:02:48.519
<v Speaker 3>but I don't think I need any kind of stem

1127
01:02:48.599 --> 01:02:49.400
<v Speaker 3>cell in my cream.

1128
01:02:49.760 --> 01:02:53.639
<v Speaker 2>Plant stem cells? Can you imagine from the stem? And

1129
01:02:53.719 --> 01:02:56.679
<v Speaker 2>they're like, show me the lie. Also, if you'd like

1130
01:02:56.760 --> 01:02:59.159
<v Speaker 2>to hear about people putting weird stuff on their face,

1131
01:02:59.159 --> 01:03:02.400
<v Speaker 2>I hit up the Malachoology episode about slugs and snails

1132
01:03:02.559 --> 01:03:06.280
<v Speaker 2>for some snail facial facts. And also the Glycobiology episode

1133
01:03:06.440 --> 01:03:10.559
<v Speaker 2>has great info on why hyaluronic acid is not ripoff.

1134
01:03:11.039 --> 01:03:14.480
<v Speaker 2>You'll be like, Oh, this is legit. It's molecules. A

1135
01:03:14.559 --> 01:03:19.000
<v Speaker 2>lot of folks Catherine Claymoremon, Chris Whitman, Michael Wilbur, Tar Harrison,

1136
01:03:19.159 --> 01:03:22.679
<v Speaker 2>and first time question asker and potential future stem cell

1137
01:03:22.760 --> 01:03:26.559
<v Speaker 2>researcher Alena wanted to know, in Catherine's words, how far

1138
01:03:26.639 --> 01:03:29.280
<v Speaker 2>away from stem cell based organ transplants.

1139
01:03:29.800 --> 01:03:34.480
<v Speaker 3>Oh, that's a fabulous question. I'm gonna pause here to

1140
01:03:34.559 --> 01:03:39.920
<v Speaker 3>say organs are like a step ahead. We're getting good

1141
01:03:40.000 --> 01:03:45.079
<v Speaker 3>at making tissues in a dish, well, making miniaturized tissues

1142
01:03:45.119 --> 01:03:46.960
<v Speaker 3>that are really really small, like the size of a

1143
01:03:47.039 --> 01:03:50.840
<v Speaker 3>grain of rice. We can make like small bits of tissue.

1144
01:03:51.119 --> 01:03:53.199
<v Speaker 3>But if you look at like your arm, for example,

1145
01:03:53.639 --> 01:03:56.360
<v Speaker 3>and the muscles there, then there's bone as well as

1146
01:03:56.440 --> 01:03:59.440
<v Speaker 3>blood and muscle cells and skin around it. Organs are

1147
01:03:59.519 --> 01:04:03.519
<v Speaker 3>complicated because they have many different tissues combined and coming

1148
01:04:03.559 --> 01:04:06.000
<v Speaker 3>together in a certain way. So you have to figure

1149
01:04:06.000 --> 01:04:08.239
<v Speaker 3>out the stem cells to make each of those tissues

1150
01:04:08.519 --> 01:04:10.400
<v Speaker 3>and then how to make them come together in three D,

1151
01:04:10.920 --> 01:04:13.599
<v Speaker 3>and people are doing that. Don't get me wrong. Three

1152
01:04:13.679 --> 01:04:16.960
<v Speaker 3>D printing has helped build scaffolds around which we can

1153
01:04:17.440 --> 01:04:22.360
<v Speaker 3>build mult tissue many organoids they're called, and people are

1154
01:04:22.440 --> 01:04:25.039
<v Speaker 3>working on that. But I think what will happen sooner

1155
01:04:25.639 --> 01:04:28.920
<v Speaker 3>is that we can grow and it is happening now

1156
01:04:29.199 --> 01:04:33.000
<v Speaker 3>this research where you can grow human organs from human

1157
01:04:33.079 --> 01:04:37.239
<v Speaker 3>stem cells in other animals like pigs, for example, and

1158
01:04:37.360 --> 01:04:40.800
<v Speaker 3>then that's easier because it has all the other physiology

1159
01:04:41.480 --> 01:04:44.039
<v Speaker 3>and is probably way cheaper than doing it all in

1160
01:04:44.159 --> 01:04:44.519
<v Speaker 3>a dish.

1161
01:04:45.000 --> 01:04:48.519
<v Speaker 2>So this field is not new. It's called zeno transplantation.

1162
01:04:48.840 --> 01:04:51.400
<v Speaker 2>And a twenty twenty two New York Times article described

1163
01:04:51.440 --> 01:04:55.840
<v Speaker 2>a huge leap in transplant medicine as a kidney grown

1164
01:04:55.960 --> 01:05:00.159
<v Speaker 2>via pig was externally attached to a patient who is

1165
01:05:00.199 --> 01:05:04.960
<v Speaker 2>on life support, with the patient's families consent, and the

1166
01:05:05.119 --> 01:05:08.679
<v Speaker 2>kidney worked almost immediately, to the thrill of the surgeons.

1167
01:05:09.280 --> 01:05:13.679
<v Speaker 2>And it came from a genetically altered pig who lacked

1168
01:05:13.880 --> 01:05:17.679
<v Speaker 2>the gene that would trigger a really severe human immune

1169
01:05:17.719 --> 01:05:20.639
<v Speaker 2>rejection response, and the surgeons while they were at it,

1170
01:05:20.760 --> 01:05:23.639
<v Speaker 2>also slipped a pig thiamus in the patient to trick

1171
01:05:24.000 --> 01:05:27.000
<v Speaker 2>the human body into accepting the organ that was grown

1172
01:05:27.039 --> 01:05:30.239
<v Speaker 2>from a pig. Now, this might be great news for

1173
01:05:30.400 --> 01:05:33.679
<v Speaker 2>the one hundred thousand people in America right now waiting

1174
01:05:33.840 --> 01:05:38.079
<v Speaker 2>for organ donations twelve die each day waiting and for

1175
01:05:38.199 --> 01:05:40.719
<v Speaker 2>more on kidney donations. Yeah, we have an episode on it,

1176
01:05:40.840 --> 01:05:43.639
<v Speaker 2>the Nephrology episode. Will link it in the show notes.

1177
01:05:44.199 --> 01:05:47.880
<v Speaker 2>But maybe not so happy all of those pigs or

1178
01:05:48.079 --> 01:05:51.760
<v Speaker 2>animal activists. But the medical teams were quick to note

1179
01:05:51.880 --> 01:05:54.719
<v Speaker 2>in the article that one hundred million pigs die a

1180
01:05:54.880 --> 01:05:59.400
<v Speaker 2>year for our tacos and our breakfasts. But yes, emerging

1181
01:05:59.480 --> 01:06:03.599
<v Speaker 2>science possibilities and ethical considerations abound.

1182
01:06:04.159 --> 01:06:06.559
<v Speaker 3>Or you could like start it and then have the

1183
01:06:06.599 --> 01:06:09.760
<v Speaker 3>body finish it. But making a whole organ is super hard.

1184
01:06:10.000 --> 01:06:12.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, as is making a whole baby. And we had

1185
01:06:13.000 --> 01:06:17.480
<v Speaker 2>some questions. Devin McPeek, tj McKenna, Joe Portfino, and Jeddine

1186
01:06:17.639 --> 01:06:21.480
<v Speaker 2>Lennon want to know in Devon's words, Devin mcpeak's words,

1187
01:06:21.760 --> 01:06:24.920
<v Speaker 2>oh this is my shit. Where are we on turning

1188
01:06:25.320 --> 01:06:29.079
<v Speaker 2>sperm producing people's stem cells into eggs and or turning

1189
01:06:29.159 --> 01:06:32.360
<v Speaker 2>egg producing people's stem cells into sperm, so same sex

1190
01:06:32.440 --> 01:06:36.840
<v Speaker 2>couples can have biological babies together or with like changing

1191
01:06:36.880 --> 01:06:39.960
<v Speaker 2>the way that we do IVF, stem cells potentially be

1192
01:06:40.639 --> 01:06:42.559
<v Speaker 2>a replacement for an egg.

1193
01:06:43.039 --> 01:06:45.760
<v Speaker 3>Yes, I love this question, and there have been so

1194
01:06:45.920 --> 01:06:49.639
<v Speaker 3>many advancements in recent years, and I'm forgetting what the

1195
01:06:49.760 --> 01:06:53.679
<v Speaker 3>checklist looks like, but there is a lot of research

1196
01:06:53.800 --> 01:06:57.519
<v Speaker 3>underway to use stem cells to help make gam meats,

1197
01:06:57.679 --> 01:07:01.920
<v Speaker 3>and stem cell research is actually core to IVF because again,

1198
01:07:02.199 --> 01:07:04.679
<v Speaker 3>the fertilized eggs the ultimate stem cell, and so the

1199
01:07:04.679 --> 01:07:07.280
<v Speaker 3>gam meat's coming together make the ultimate stem cell, so

1200
01:07:07.559 --> 01:07:08.800
<v Speaker 3>they kind of go hand in hand.

1201
01:07:09.119 --> 01:07:11.239
<v Speaker 2>For more on this, you can see the twenty twenty

1202
01:07:11.440 --> 01:07:15.360
<v Speaker 2>paper titled generation of Artificial gammeat and embryo from stem

1203
01:07:15.440 --> 01:07:19.519
<v Speaker 2>cells in Reproductive Medicine, which looks at different potential options

1204
01:07:19.639 --> 01:07:24.159
<v Speaker 2>of using primordial germ cells which can come from adult

1205
01:07:24.360 --> 01:07:29.039
<v Speaker 2>stem cells, from male and female gonads, and from pluripotent

1206
01:07:29.360 --> 01:07:35.360
<v Speaker 2>stem cells which include embryonic stem cells and induced pluripotent

1207
01:07:35.599 --> 01:07:39.400
<v Speaker 2>stem cells. And now you know what all that shit means.

1208
01:07:39.960 --> 01:07:41.760
<v Speaker 2>I didn't know at the beginning of this episode either,

1209
01:07:41.800 --> 01:07:43.440
<v Speaker 2>but now we get it. Okay. Cool.

1210
01:07:43.800 --> 01:07:47.679
<v Speaker 3>In twenty twelve when the Nobel Prize was given for

1211
01:07:48.039 --> 01:07:52.280
<v Speaker 3>induced pluripotent stem cells. The other person who won, John Gurdon,

1212
01:07:53.000 --> 01:07:56.320
<v Speaker 3>was the person who first did somatic cell nuclear transfer,

1213
01:07:56.679 --> 01:08:00.639
<v Speaker 3>which is essentially the research that's the backbone for doing

1214
01:08:00.719 --> 01:08:01.559
<v Speaker 3>this type of work.

1215
01:08:01.599 --> 01:08:02.639
<v Speaker 2>Oh wow, And that's how.

1216
01:08:02.599 --> 01:08:06.400
<v Speaker 3>Like Dolly the sheep was cloned, really right, because you

1217
01:08:06.440 --> 01:08:10.679
<v Speaker 3>could take the genetic material and put it in an, oh, say,

1218
01:08:10.719 --> 01:08:13.639
<v Speaker 3>an egg cell, and then go from there. So all

1219
01:08:13.719 --> 01:08:16.840
<v Speaker 3>of these fields are super related, and I love that

1220
01:08:16.880 --> 01:08:18.359
<v Speaker 3>people were making those connections.

1221
01:08:18.840 --> 01:08:21.439
<v Speaker 2>You know, one day your great grandkids are just going

1222
01:08:21.520 --> 01:08:24.680
<v Speaker 2>to teleport a cheek swab and then a few weeks

1223
01:08:24.760 --> 01:08:28.159
<v Speaker 2>later they'll get beamed back an instapod baby and they

1224
01:08:28.199 --> 01:08:31.239
<v Speaker 2>will have no crotch ruptures. And I am happy for them.

1225
01:08:31.279 --> 01:08:34.159
<v Speaker 2>I'm thrilled for them. Also, patrons Jillian Claire and Sabrina

1226
01:08:34.279 --> 01:08:37.840
<v Speaker 2>wanted to know cann of fetus's stem cells take a

1227
01:08:37.960 --> 01:08:41.079
<v Speaker 2>body safari outside of the womb or if it's a

1228
01:08:41.239 --> 01:08:44.279
<v Speaker 2>flim flam, that fetuses can send their stem cells to

1229
01:08:44.399 --> 01:08:47.479
<v Speaker 2>help their parent heal if they get an injury during pregnancy,

1230
01:08:48.119 --> 01:08:51.720
<v Speaker 2>and folks, this is true. Kind of this is called

1231
01:08:51.880 --> 01:08:56.279
<v Speaker 2>feto maternal micro chimerism, and apparently these cells can be

1232
01:08:56.359 --> 01:09:00.000
<v Speaker 2>found in the mom or the host parent for decades

1233
01:09:00.319 --> 01:09:04.680
<v Speaker 2>after birth, and they've been found around tumor lesions, leading

1234
01:09:04.760 --> 01:09:09.159
<v Speaker 2>researchers to think that they are therapeutic or protective. But

1235
01:09:09.319 --> 01:09:12.920
<v Speaker 2>then toward the end of one study, the twenty sixteen

1236
01:09:13.239 --> 01:09:16.640
<v Speaker 2>paper called Novel Insights into the Link between Fetal cell

1237
01:09:16.800 --> 01:09:21.199
<v Speaker 2>Mitochimerism and Maternal cancers, they do acknowledge that quote fetal

1238
01:09:21.279 --> 01:09:25.399
<v Speaker 2>cells showing certain phenotypes could have roles in tumor evolution

1239
01:09:25.880 --> 01:09:29.920
<v Speaker 2>and progression, meaning that maybe those fetal cells are the

1240
01:09:30.000 --> 01:09:32.479
<v Speaker 2>ones causing the problems, which is like, wow, fuck you,

1241
01:09:32.800 --> 01:09:38.119
<v Speaker 2>what what I grew you? Which is just another reason

1242
01:09:38.560 --> 01:09:42.399
<v Speaker 2>to send here mom a mother's stake card. We had

1243
01:09:42.399 --> 01:09:45.960
<v Speaker 2>a lot of questions about ethics, and Kyle Utten had

1244
01:09:45.960 --> 01:09:48.079
<v Speaker 2>a great question, how scared should I be about stem

1245
01:09:48.159 --> 01:09:51.600
<v Speaker 2>cell research and eugenics along the lines of designer babies,

1246
01:09:51.960 --> 01:09:54.399
<v Speaker 2>things like that, I know that you've mentioned that stem

1247
01:09:54.479 --> 01:09:59.760
<v Speaker 2>cell researchers are also philosophers. Is there a forum where

1248
01:09:59.760 --> 01:10:03.880
<v Speaker 2>these things are discussed? Are these discussed at every conference

1249
01:10:04.000 --> 01:10:06.239
<v Speaker 2>that comes up? Is their best practices?

1250
01:10:08.159 --> 01:10:12.079
<v Speaker 3>The stem cell community talks a lot about ethics, and

1251
01:10:12.199 --> 01:10:13.720
<v Speaker 3>it's part of what made me want to go into

1252
01:10:13.760 --> 01:10:17.560
<v Speaker 3>science communication after my research because we were always I

1253
01:10:17.720 --> 01:10:20.119
<v Speaker 3>just loved those sessions and we were really lucky to

1254
01:10:20.159 --> 01:10:24.640
<v Speaker 3>have them at both our local and international conferences. I

1255
01:10:24.720 --> 01:10:27.439
<v Speaker 3>actually wish we talked even more about it, because I

1256
01:10:27.479 --> 01:10:29.960
<v Speaker 3>think there are so many different ways that stem cell

1257
01:10:30.000 --> 01:10:32.680
<v Speaker 3>research touches ethics. But I will say a lot of

1258
01:10:32.760 --> 01:10:38.560
<v Speaker 3>researchers have been leaders in policy moves too slow for science,

1259
01:10:39.039 --> 01:10:41.920
<v Speaker 3>So stem cell researchers have been calling for moratory on

1260
01:10:42.000 --> 01:10:45.399
<v Speaker 3>certain types of research. When it comes to cloning. There

1261
01:10:45.520 --> 01:10:49.079
<v Speaker 3>was the whole case with the gene edited babies that

1262
01:10:49.199 --> 01:10:52.880
<v Speaker 3>happened because there's no international policy on stem cell research,

1263
01:10:52.960 --> 01:10:55.000
<v Speaker 3>so it's governed by different countries.

1264
01:10:55.319 --> 01:10:59.520
<v Speaker 2>So just FYI, the world's first genetically edited babies or

1265
01:10:59.560 --> 01:11:02.840
<v Speaker 2>twin we're also born in twenty eighteen who were tweaked

1266
01:11:02.960 --> 01:11:08.319
<v Speaker 2>as embryos to potentially resist future infection with HIV. And

1267
01:11:08.920 --> 01:11:13.079
<v Speaker 2>we talked about genetic alterations and eugenics with the wonderful

1268
01:11:13.119 --> 01:11:16.640
<v Speaker 2>doctor Emily Akerman, a systems biologist and a disability advocate,

1269
01:11:17.079 --> 01:11:19.840
<v Speaker 2>and she said during that episode, I don't want to

1270
01:11:19.880 --> 01:11:22.880
<v Speaker 2>be genetically modified, and I wouldn't want children to be

1271
01:11:23.039 --> 01:11:25.600
<v Speaker 2>genetically modified. So I do wish that people would be

1272
01:11:25.720 --> 01:11:28.319
<v Speaker 2>much more cognizant of the ableism and the eugenics that

1273
01:11:28.359 --> 01:11:31.680
<v Speaker 2>are so deeply ingrained in good science, and said that,

1274
01:11:31.720 --> 01:11:33.720
<v Speaker 2>it's been really interesting to see the way that non

1275
01:11:33.800 --> 01:11:37.920
<v Speaker 2>disabled people have framed the conversation about disability and genetics

1276
01:11:38.039 --> 01:11:41.119
<v Speaker 2>in a scientific way. And I'll link on my website

1277
01:11:41.159 --> 01:11:43.359
<v Speaker 2>some good resources to read on that from different voices,

1278
01:11:43.399 --> 01:11:46.840
<v Speaker 2>and I'll also link doctor Ackerman's episode in the show notes.

1279
01:11:47.079 --> 01:11:49.479
<v Speaker 3>And the research community tries to lead with what the

1280
01:11:49.760 --> 01:11:53.279
<v Speaker 3>standards are, but there are cases where researchers have kind

1281
01:11:53.319 --> 01:11:58.239
<v Speaker 3>of gone off. I don't know how worried I am

1282
01:11:58.279 --> 01:12:01.760
<v Speaker 3>about it. I'm always worried when policy moves too slow,

1283
01:12:02.319 --> 01:12:05.079
<v Speaker 3>and this field of research is kind of slow too,

1284
01:12:05.199 --> 01:12:07.720
<v Speaker 3>so maybe that's on our side. The ethical things I

1285
01:12:07.760 --> 01:12:11.399
<v Speaker 3>think about are incidental findings in stem cell research, because

1286
01:12:11.439 --> 01:12:14.319
<v Speaker 3>you're donating cells, so I always think about that. I

1287
01:12:14.359 --> 01:12:17.760
<v Speaker 3>think about the fourteen day rule, which is a big topic,

1288
01:12:17.960 --> 01:12:21.199
<v Speaker 3>so like, how long can we grow humans embryonic stem

1289
01:12:21.239 --> 01:12:24.920
<v Speaker 3>cells in a dish before it starts to get concerning?

1290
01:12:25.399 --> 01:12:28.000
<v Speaker 2>Okay, so the fourteen day rule. Side note, it's kind

1291
01:12:28.039 --> 01:12:30.479
<v Speaker 2>of like the five second rule, but it involves embryos,

1292
01:12:30.800 --> 01:12:33.359
<v Speaker 2>and it's a law in some countries and an ethical

1293
01:12:33.439 --> 01:12:36.760
<v Speaker 2>standard in others, And essentially it's like, let's not grow

1294
01:12:36.840 --> 01:12:40.239
<v Speaker 2>that past fourteen days and experiment now. I looked at

1295
01:12:40.279 --> 01:12:44.880
<v Speaker 2>the California Institute for Regenerative Medicine and they had a

1296
01:12:45.000 --> 01:12:48.079
<v Speaker 2>section on their website about myths and misconceptions. And I

1297
01:12:48.159 --> 01:12:51.800
<v Speaker 2>did not know this. But so people who donate leftover

1298
01:12:51.920 --> 01:12:56.239
<v Speaker 2>embryos for research go through this extensive consent process to

1299
01:12:56.600 --> 01:13:00.800
<v Speaker 2>make sure they understand embryonic stem cell research. And they

1300
01:13:00.840 --> 01:13:04.359
<v Speaker 2>say that under state, national, and international regulations, no human

1301
01:13:04.520 --> 01:13:09.279
<v Speaker 2>embryonic stem cell lines can be created without explicit consent

1302
01:13:09.560 --> 01:13:12.640
<v Speaker 2>from the donor, and that these embryos are from IVF

1303
01:13:12.720 --> 01:13:16.439
<v Speaker 2>clinics they were already destined to be destroyed, so embryos

1304
01:13:16.520 --> 01:13:20.119
<v Speaker 2>can't be made with the intent to destroy them for research.

1305
01:13:20.399 --> 01:13:22.720
<v Speaker 2>But if you paid for an embryo to be made

1306
01:13:22.800 --> 01:13:25.439
<v Speaker 2>and it's sitting on ice because you're not going to

1307
01:13:25.479 --> 01:13:27.840
<v Speaker 2>grow it into a baby, you have the right to

1308
01:13:28.039 --> 01:13:31.279
<v Speaker 2>destroy it or donate it. Them's the rules, at least

1309
01:13:31.319 --> 01:13:31.960
<v Speaker 2>in some places.

1310
01:13:32.800 --> 01:13:36.239
<v Speaker 3>So that's something that researchers talk about ownership of cell

1311
01:13:36.279 --> 01:13:39.760
<v Speaker 3>lines if you donate your cells to research. And then

1312
01:13:39.960 --> 01:13:44.319
<v Speaker 3>folks like to think about cloning as well, which is

1313
01:13:44.399 --> 01:13:45.920
<v Speaker 3>a fun one. I don't know.

1314
01:13:47.199 --> 01:13:50.560
<v Speaker 2>I've always wondered, like, indulge me here, but there's gotta

1315
01:13:50.640 --> 01:13:52.560
<v Speaker 2>be cloned people on Earth, right.

1316
01:13:52.880 --> 01:13:54.720
<v Speaker 3>There's gotta be.

1317
01:13:54.960 --> 01:13:56.000
<v Speaker 2>There's gotta be.

1318
01:13:56.920 --> 01:14:00.760
<v Speaker 3>I will say that in theory we know how to

1319
01:14:00.880 --> 01:14:05.359
<v Speaker 3>do it, and in practice, yeah, I think I know

1320
01:14:05.439 --> 01:14:05.920
<v Speaker 3>how to do it.

1321
01:14:06.159 --> 01:14:09.039
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I haven't done it. Would there be any way

1322
01:14:09.119 --> 01:14:12.800
<v Speaker 2>to tell that a person is a clone other than

1323
01:14:12.920 --> 01:14:15.199
<v Speaker 2>just a database of being like, hm, duplicate, you know

1324
01:14:15.239 --> 01:14:15.640
<v Speaker 2>what I mean?

1325
01:14:16.359 --> 01:14:22.439
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I don't know. Would they have like shorter telomers

1326
01:14:22.680 --> 01:14:23.680
<v Speaker 3>for their age?

1327
01:14:24.000 --> 01:14:27.520
<v Speaker 2>This is a great debate, and I love that you

1328
01:14:27.720 --> 01:14:31.239
<v Speaker 2>take your science to the public, which you've educated so

1329
01:14:32.199 --> 01:14:35.600
<v Speaker 2>many people, especially over the pandemic. You always have great

1330
01:14:35.720 --> 01:14:40.239
<v Speaker 2>information that is super factual and very rigorously checked and

1331
01:14:40.840 --> 01:14:43.920
<v Speaker 2>very trustworthy. Thank you, and a lot of people are

1332
01:14:44.279 --> 01:14:47.640
<v Speaker 2>just giant fans of you. Moses Cabrera, Addie mcbatty, Elizabeth

1333
01:14:47.720 --> 01:14:50.199
<v Speaker 2>and first time question asker Chloe kirk All want to

1334
01:14:50.279 --> 01:14:54.720
<v Speaker 2>know a little bit about how you work in science communication,

1335
01:14:55.079 --> 01:14:58.279
<v Speaker 2>if you have any advice on getting into the field.

1336
01:14:58.600 --> 01:15:02.800
<v Speaker 2>Or finding your niche did it.

1337
01:15:05.159 --> 01:15:07.600
<v Speaker 3>Thank you, that's so sweet, and thank you for those questions.

1338
01:15:08.159 --> 01:15:13.960
<v Speaker 3>I was excited. I started incidentally doing science communication because

1339
01:15:14.000 --> 01:15:17.159
<v Speaker 3>I was seeing direct to consumer marketing of stem cell

1340
01:15:17.399 --> 01:15:20.760
<v Speaker 3>procedures that I was concerned about, and I saw a

1341
01:15:20.800 --> 01:15:23.199
<v Speaker 3>lot of it happening on social media, and so I

1342
01:15:23.399 --> 01:15:26.439
<v Speaker 3>created an Instagram account. I didn't have one. I started

1343
01:15:26.479 --> 01:15:29.920
<v Speaker 3>it for that exact purpose, and to show people what

1344
01:15:30.039 --> 01:15:32.399
<v Speaker 3>it looks like to do stem cell research, how much

1345
01:15:32.439 --> 01:15:34.800
<v Speaker 3>more research needs to be done, what goes into a fact.

1346
01:15:35.199 --> 01:15:37.800
<v Speaker 3>So I started it out of my passion for science,

1347
01:15:37.960 --> 01:15:41.079
<v Speaker 3>and then realized I really loved it, and so I

1348
01:15:41.239 --> 01:15:43.520
<v Speaker 3>purceed it for that. And so I think my advice

1349
01:15:43.680 --> 01:15:46.199
<v Speaker 3>is like, get into it if you love it, and

1350
01:15:46.359 --> 01:15:49.279
<v Speaker 3>for those reasons. And I think bring the rigor that

1351
01:15:49.319 --> 01:15:52.760
<v Speaker 3>you would bring to science and scientific research to your

1352
01:15:52.800 --> 01:15:57.239
<v Speaker 3>science communication. So I think again, overthinking ethics is always good.

1353
01:15:57.359 --> 01:16:01.159
<v Speaker 2>Overthinking ethics is always good. That's a great consider. Amazing Bumpers,

1354
01:16:01.520 --> 01:16:04.640
<v Speaker 2>Please make a pin, Please make rich What about the

1355
01:16:04.760 --> 01:16:08.520
<v Speaker 2>hardest thing about stem cell research or what you do?

1356
01:16:08.680 --> 01:16:10.880
<v Speaker 2>What is the most annoying. It can be petty or

1357
01:16:10.920 --> 01:16:11.560
<v Speaker 2>it can be giant.

1358
01:16:14.239 --> 01:16:17.199
<v Speaker 3>When I was doing my PhD. The most annoying thing

1359
01:16:17.319 --> 01:16:20.880
<v Speaker 3>was how long experiments took. It was a week to

1360
01:16:21.000 --> 01:16:23.920
<v Speaker 3>grow the stem cells, a week to differentiate them, and

1361
01:16:24.000 --> 01:16:27.640
<v Speaker 3>then another week to get them ready to be imaged

1362
01:16:27.680 --> 01:16:31.399
<v Speaker 3>and analyzed. So all experiments were at least three weeks,

1363
01:16:31.960 --> 01:16:36.359
<v Speaker 3>if not longer. So that was annoying. And I would

1364
01:16:36.399 --> 01:16:39.520
<v Speaker 3>say now things still take a long time. Even a

1365
01:16:39.600 --> 01:16:42.680
<v Speaker 3>simple like thirty second video can take a really long

1366
01:16:42.760 --> 01:16:43.399
<v Speaker 3>time to take.

1367
01:16:44.039 --> 01:16:46.439
<v Speaker 2>What about your favorite thing about what you do, or

1368
01:16:46.479 --> 01:16:50.239
<v Speaker 2>about cell biology or stem cells or science comunic.

1369
01:16:50.000 --> 01:16:56.039
<v Speaker 3>Keeper, I will say I am forever inspired by our biology.

1370
01:16:56.640 --> 01:16:59.520
<v Speaker 3>I am obsessed with cells. I think they're so cool,

1371
01:17:00.199 --> 01:17:02.720
<v Speaker 3>and I love space and I love the cosmos. I

1372
01:17:02.720 --> 01:17:05.119
<v Speaker 3>think they're super cool. But I also think we have

1373
01:17:05.199 --> 01:17:07.880
<v Speaker 3>a whole universe in our bodies that we haven't explored.

1374
01:17:08.479 --> 01:17:11.359
<v Speaker 3>And it really inspires me because we look in the

1375
01:17:11.399 --> 01:17:14.119
<v Speaker 3>mirror and we're told to see certain things and critique

1376
01:17:14.119 --> 01:17:18.319
<v Speaker 3>ourselves and think all these horrible things. And I feel

1377
01:17:18.359 --> 01:17:20.800
<v Speaker 3>that very much. But at the same time I try

1378
01:17:20.840 --> 01:17:24.399
<v Speaker 3>to remember, like, it's just amazing that I'm alive today.

1379
01:17:24.880 --> 01:17:27.039
<v Speaker 3>I got out of bed, or I didn't and I

1380
01:17:27.159 --> 01:17:30.479
<v Speaker 3>stayed in bed. That's also like a fantastic feat of

1381
01:17:30.600 --> 01:17:34.760
<v Speaker 3>so many cells in our bodies. And even when things

1382
01:17:34.800 --> 01:17:38.079
<v Speaker 3>are not ideal and we wish our bodies were operating differently,

1383
01:17:38.840 --> 01:17:41.479
<v Speaker 3>it still inspires me how all of this stuff's happening

1384
01:17:41.520 --> 01:17:44.880
<v Speaker 3>inside of us without us knowing. And I think it's

1385
01:17:45.000 --> 01:17:47.800
<v Speaker 3>the coolest story there is. It's these little cells living

1386
01:17:47.840 --> 01:17:50.800
<v Speaker 3>out their own lives inside of us. Is that creepy, No,

1387
01:17:51.039 --> 01:17:51.439
<v Speaker 3>not at all.

1388
01:17:51.560 --> 01:17:51.960
<v Speaker 1>I love it.

1389
01:17:52.119 --> 01:17:55.159
<v Speaker 2>Even if you're doing nothing, there's trillions of parts of

1390
01:17:55.199 --> 01:17:57.720
<v Speaker 2>you doing a lot at the moment. Yeah.

1391
01:17:58.520 --> 01:18:01.119
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, And there's so much we don't know about it.

1392
01:18:01.239 --> 01:18:03.880
<v Speaker 3>It's it's like in our own body and we don't

1393
01:18:03.920 --> 01:18:06.520
<v Speaker 3>fully know what's happening. And we're alive at a time

1394
01:18:07.199 --> 01:18:10.319
<v Speaker 3>when we have technology that's helping us, like to see

1395
01:18:10.399 --> 01:18:12.800
<v Speaker 3>cells moving in action in ways we never have before,

1396
01:18:13.439 --> 01:18:16.039
<v Speaker 3>to understand our genome in ways we never have before.

1397
01:18:16.119 --> 01:18:18.279
<v Speaker 3>So we're just in a really exciting time for biology

1398
01:18:18.319 --> 01:18:21.760
<v Speaker 3>and understanding the microscopic. The hill I die on is

1399
01:18:22.359 --> 01:18:25.720
<v Speaker 3>that people will love cells the way I do. That

1400
01:18:26.920 --> 01:18:29.920
<v Speaker 3>is my thing, Like I'm just I love cells. I

1401
01:18:30.000 --> 01:18:31.960
<v Speaker 3>want to talk about them constantly.

1402
01:18:32.520 --> 01:18:36.359
<v Speaker 2>So ask scientific Sam's not smart questions because even the

1403
01:18:36.479 --> 01:18:40.439
<v Speaker 2>simplest of cells can be boggling when you get up close.

1404
01:18:40.760 --> 01:18:44.159
<v Speaker 2>And thank you so much to doctor science Sam aka

1405
01:18:44.319 --> 01:18:47.399
<v Speaker 2>Samantha you mean and look up science Sam on all

1406
01:18:47.560 --> 01:18:50.840
<v Speaker 2>the social platforms. Her handles are also very easily linked

1407
01:18:50.880 --> 01:18:53.199
<v Speaker 2>in the show notes, as is her website, which is

1408
01:18:53.239 --> 01:18:55.640
<v Speaker 2>just her name Samantha you mean dot com and she

1409
01:18:55.840 --> 01:18:59.159
<v Speaker 2>is wonderful. Love her. We are at ologies on Twitter

1410
01:18:59.239 --> 01:19:02.039
<v Speaker 2>and Instagram. I'm Ali Ward with one L on both

1411
01:19:02.079 --> 01:19:04.840
<v Speaker 2>you can say hello. Also just joined Blue Sky. Do

1412
01:19:04.960 --> 01:19:06.560
<v Speaker 2>I know how to post on there? Not at all,

1413
01:19:06.640 --> 01:19:08.479
<v Speaker 2>but I'm on there. I had to get the handles.

1414
01:19:08.760 --> 01:19:12.119
<v Speaker 2>Thank you doctor Sarah McNulty for giving me her reference codes.

1415
01:19:12.600 --> 01:19:15.239
<v Speaker 2>Thank you Susan Hale for handling merchant ologies merch dot

1416
01:19:15.279 --> 01:19:17.760
<v Speaker 2>com and so much more. Aaron Talbert admins the Ologies

1417
01:19:17.800 --> 01:19:20.800
<v Speaker 2>podcast Facebook group. Noel Dilware schedules interviews and does so

1418
01:19:20.920 --> 01:19:23.680
<v Speaker 2>much more. Emily White of the Wordery makes professional transcripts.

1419
01:19:23.920 --> 01:19:26.920
<v Speaker 2>Smologies are kid friendly episodes that have been whittled down

1420
01:19:27.199 --> 01:19:29.680
<v Speaker 2>to smaller links with no swears, and you can find

1421
01:19:29.720 --> 01:19:32.119
<v Speaker 2>them at Aliward dot com, slash smologies or linked in

1422
01:19:32.159 --> 01:19:35.000
<v Speaker 2>the show notes. Thank you, Zeke Rodriguez, Thomas and Mercedes

1423
01:19:35.039 --> 01:19:37.560
<v Speaker 2>Maitland for working on those. Kelly Dwyer does our website

1424
01:19:37.600 --> 01:19:39.920
<v Speaker 2>and can do yours. Assistant editing was done by the

1425
01:19:40.079 --> 01:19:43.520
<v Speaker 2>genetically flawless Jarrett Sleeper, and lead editing is by the

1426
01:19:43.640 --> 01:19:47.960
<v Speaker 2>tody potent Mercedes Maitland of Maitland Audio. Nick Thorburn wrote

1427
01:19:48.000 --> 01:19:49.600
<v Speaker 2>the theme music. And if you stick around to the

1428
01:19:49.680 --> 01:19:51.079
<v Speaker 2>end of the episode, I tell you a secret. And

1429
01:19:51.159 --> 01:19:54.399
<v Speaker 2>this week it's that our friend Bonnie Dutch sent Jarrett

1430
01:19:54.479 --> 01:19:57.479
<v Speaker 2>a plant when he popped his acl It was nearly

1431
01:19:57.640 --> 01:20:01.319
<v Speaker 2>two years ago and it's still alive. I see it

1432
01:20:01.439 --> 01:20:04.199
<v Speaker 2>every day and I'm like, why doesn't everyone send house

1433
01:20:04.279 --> 01:20:07.760
<v Speaker 2>plants instead of flowers? This thing has lasted like seven

1434
01:20:08.000 --> 01:20:12.079
<v Speaker 2>hundred days, longer than a bouquet, and I water it

1435
01:20:12.239 --> 01:20:15.000
<v Speaker 2>only when it looks like it might sue me if

1436
01:20:15.079 --> 01:20:19.199
<v Speaker 2>I don't. Okay, cut banks, textra crush before you turn

1437
01:20:19.279 --> 01:20:28.840
<v Speaker 2>into a mushrooms lunch like all of us. Okay, Bye bye, hacadermatology, homeology, ryptozoology, lithology, technology,

1438
01:20:29.720 --> 01:20:44.039
<v Speaker 2>meteorology and pactology, ethology, ceiology, selenology, steroids, stem cells, impossible,

1439
01:20:44.079 --> 01:20:44.439
<v Speaker 2>burger