Speaker 1: And it is time. This is fun. This is fun
Speaker 1: because the last time we saw this guy, we were
Speaker 1: trying to steer him to barbecue in Atlanta. We're trying
Speaker 1: to steer him into the ways of barbecue. And since
Speaker 1: it is nine point thirty, incredibly punctual. Love it. And
Speaker 1: we've got Ben Jacobs dropping by. Fantastic and Ben already
Speaker 1: had Golden ticket status when we talked to him. They're
Speaker 1: the man is Ben?
Speaker 2: Good morning? How are you?
Speaker 1: You tell me you're the busiest man in show business?
Speaker 1: As I told you, I mean you're the one bouncing
Speaker 1: around out here.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean we've had an incredible window, not just
Speaker 3: the things that have actually happened, but the maybe deals
Speaker 3: and the big names that still have their future is unresolved.
Speaker 3: So needless to say, I'm busy. But it's a pleasure
Speaker 3: to join you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so great to have you here, my friend. What
Speaker 1: I wanted to do this morning is run through some
Speaker 1: of the names that are attached to Atlanta United, Miguel
Speaker 1: almor On, Emmanuel atte Lot, the odds On, Edward for
Speaker 1: a Hashi Soon, all those names. But I also wanted
Speaker 1: to talk about at Landa United and their perception there
Speaker 1: in Europe about being a player in quotation marks on
Speaker 1: the world stage. So let's start with the players themselves.
Speaker 1: Miguel al Moron says, Luis Merrilo said twelve million. That's
Speaker 1: agreed to right now. They're just kind of waiting on
Speaker 1: getting signatures. What's the latest in the news that you
Speaker 1: have on MIGGI.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so this was an exclusive story that myself and
Speaker 3: colleague Tom Bogart's broke and no doubt many of your
Speaker 3: listeners know Tom very well, the best in the business
Speaker 3: for MLS scoops. So Miguel Almeroon too, MLS and specifically
Speaker 3: Atlanta United. You may remember it started with Charlotte FC.
Speaker 3: They've moved for Wilfrid Zaha and Atlanta have found an
Speaker 3: opportunity to bring Almero on back. It's not one hundred
Speaker 3: percent done, but what I can say is there's a
Speaker 3: verbal agreement between the two clubs. My understanding is that
Speaker 3: it's ten million US plus add ons and that's about
Speaker 3: half what Newcastle we're looking for. In January twenty twenty
Speaker 3: four when it was the Saudi club Al Shabab that
Speaker 3: we're looking and Amiron is very keen on returning to Atlanta,
Speaker 3: the personal terms are being finalized, and then there's just
Speaker 3: one question mark, which I think shows you the amicable
Speaker 3: relationship between the clubs, and that's when he arrives. Because
Speaker 3: from Newcastle's point of view, they want to keep as
Speaker 3: much depth as they possibly can right through the end
Speaker 3: of the window. There's no guarantee that they replace Almoron
Speaker 3: right now, like for Light they could, but it's not definite.
Speaker 3: And obviously all the MLS teams are in their pre
Speaker 3: season and MiG Al Almeron is already fit.
Speaker 2: He's midway through his own.
Speaker 3: Season, so it may not be that much of a
Speaker 3: concern to Atlanta United if it drags on a few
Speaker 3: more days, simply because of the fact that they're in
Speaker 3: a privileged position where they're building up to the new
Speaker 3: season and they're going to be.
Speaker 2: Inheriting a very fit player.
Speaker 3: So the expectation, because Newcastle already have verbally accepted the deal,
Speaker 3: is this one gets done. It's just a case of
Speaker 3: when exactly he's given the permission to fly, if it's
Speaker 3: going to be now, or if it's going to be
Speaker 3: right at the beginning of February, near of the window closes.
Speaker 3: Because Newcastle have kept down We're on in their match
Speaker 3: day squad and they've still got a couple more games
Speaker 3: that potentially, if they're not going to replace him, they
Speaker 3: could look to use almir on four at least in
Speaker 3: their match day squad.
Speaker 1: What for those who are not familiar with the day
Speaker 1: to day elevens of Eddie Howe and Newcastle, why was
Speaker 1: it that Miguel went from starter and contributor to someone
Speaker 1: who is part of now just the game day eighteens
Speaker 1: and coming up occasionally playing in cup ties things like that.
Speaker 1: Why did the for those not familiar, why did he
Speaker 1: go from starter to bench player in the Newcastle universe?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm not sure that he necessarily made that kind
Speaker 3: of linear progression. It was more that if you remember
Speaker 3: the half season a few seasons ago when Almron was
Speaker 3: just on fire between the beginning of the season and
Speaker 3: Christmas into that break that led us to the Katar
Speaker 3: twenty twenty two World Cup, and at that point he'd
Speaker 3: had such a positive preseason and exploded onto the scene
Speaker 3: and showed a goal scoring streak that Newcastle really hadn't
Speaker 3: seen before and became indispensable as you would expect.
Speaker 2: Really, but in that build up to that season, the.
Speaker 3: Fan base was saying the same thing as they are now,
Speaker 3: that they would not be averse to him being sold.
Speaker 3: Newcastle were open to offers. He just changed everybody's mind.
Speaker 3: And then unfortunately, since that kind of purple patch, his
Speaker 3: goal scoring and contributions have leveled off and therefore he's
Speaker 3: become more of a squad player. And Newcastle, therefore, even
Speaker 3: before the Purple Patch, had been looking for this kind
Speaker 3: of right sided forward or winger that can have a
Speaker 3: more significant goal impact than Almeron is capable of. So
Speaker 3: at the moment he's finding himself on the bench. Jacob
Speaker 3: Murphy sometimes plays on that right hand side. It's a
Speaker 3: four to three to three formation. You've got Alexander Izak
Speaker 3: and then usually Anton Lee Gordon is on the left
Speaker 3: hand side, so it leaves Almeron as a little bit
Speaker 3: more of a squad player. There is Harvey Barns that
Speaker 3: can play on both sides as well, so he's fallen
Speaker 3: down the pecking order. But like I say, you could
Speaker 3: make more of an argument that he's returned to where
Speaker 3: he was two and a half years ago.
Speaker 2: He changed Eddie Howe's mind.
Speaker 3: Still very valuable because he's very positive, very happy, very
Speaker 3: liked by his teammates, and we shouldn't underestimate the impact
Speaker 3: footballers can have as characters, even if they're not starting
Speaker 3: every week. Actually, a lot of managers like a player
Speaker 3: that says, okay, I accept my role in a squad
Speaker 3: rather than the starting eleven, and I'm happy for that,
Speaker 3: and I'm going to be hungry to try and earn
Speaker 3: my opportunities.
Speaker 2: And Almeron is that kind of player.
Speaker 3: But the reality is that on and off Newcastle have
Speaker 3: been looking to offload Almeron that I would say the
Speaker 3: best part of the last four or five transfer windows.
Speaker 1: When you're also discussing it Lene United chasing after a nine.
Speaker 1: There are two names that are right now front and center.
Speaker 1: Emmanuel Latte Lath, who is currently at Middlesbrough their leading
Speaker 1: scorer and they're in a pursuit for hopping back into
Speaker 1: the promotion playoffs in the Championship, and also the name
Speaker 1: Odds and Edward, but that has cooled somewhat when it
Speaker 1: comes to pursuit anything else that you're hearing about. Latte Lath,
Speaker 1: where had had the leads tie, where Daniel Farker might
Speaker 1: be chasing after him to add things up. Anything else
Speaker 1: that you're hearing with your ear on the train tracks
Speaker 1: about those two.
Speaker 3: I hope it's not on the train tracks, not if
Speaker 3: there's any active trains coming anyway. But Latte Lath is
Speaker 3: the top choice for Atlanta, and Edson Odward is up
Speaker 3: there too. But I think if they can get Lade Lath,
Speaker 3: then the Edson Odworld deal will be off the table.
Speaker 3: It's just a case of spinning both plates because time
Speaker 3: is running out and both have relative complications. The Latte
Speaker 3: lat situation is that in the last week or so
Speaker 3: Atlanti United have had very positive talks with Middlesbrough, so
Speaker 3: there's not that many concerns that they can't get to
Speaker 3: a full verbal agreement.
Speaker 2: They're just about there.
Speaker 3: It's more a realization now from Atlanta's perspective that this
Speaker 3: is an in deman player and it becomes relatively likely
Speaker 3: that another suitor will enter the race in the final
Speaker 3: days of the windows. So, my reader, the situation is
Speaker 3: that Atlanta have taken the negotiations about as far as
Speaker 3: they can with both the player and also club to club,
Speaker 3: and they've got all of their ducks in a row.
Speaker 2: It's just that if you're Middlesbrough.
Speaker 3: You're waiting for a bidding war or a twist, and
Speaker 3: again you're in no rush to sell because if they're
Speaker 3: going to lose him, then keep the player scoring and
Speaker 3: in the squad and getting as many points as you
Speaker 3: can out of him before he eventually departs. So don't
Speaker 3: think it's a case of Atlanta United up against Leeds
Speaker 3: because Leads sources that I speak to deny that they
Speaker 3: have place to bid. The interest is genuine, but they've
Speaker 3: not put a formal offer on the table. And interestingly,
Speaker 3: and this might be the clue that I alluded to
Speaker 3: a moment ago, the leads perspective from sources I speak
Speaker 3: to is he's either going to go to Atlanta or
Speaker 3: a Premier League club, and it's that Premier League club
Speaker 3: that still has the question mark over it because a
Speaker 3: lot of the links that we've heard so far are
Speaker 3: not from Premier League clubs looking for strikers. And there's
Speaker 3: one or two that I can mention. Leicester City are
Speaker 3: looking for goals, Everton are in the market for a striker.
Speaker 3: West Ham and Bournemouth are both going to be alert
Speaker 3: to opportunities, and west Ham and Bournemouth, the more looking
Speaker 3: at Brighton, z Evan Ferguson. And we know that west
Speaker 3: Ham bid for John Duran as well and that was
Speaker 3: turned down yesterday a story broken by the excellent David Ornstein.
Speaker 3: Fifty seven million instantly rejected by Aston Villa. So there's
Speaker 3: a few Premier League clubs and the reason why I
Speaker 3: mentioned these other transfers is just to give you that
Speaker 3: context of three or four in the Premier League, just
Speaker 3: moving around from target to target, working out the opportunism
Speaker 3: of what might be possible in the fine hours of
Speaker 3: the window. And maybe one of those four clubs I
Speaker 3: think less likely tam possibly Bournemouth, certainly Lester in the
Speaker 3: mix as well. They all could decide at the last
Speaker 3: minute just to enter that race, and that's why I
Speaker 3: think that Middlesbrough abiding their time. And then it'd be
Speaker 3: unclear at this stage if late Elath would say I
Speaker 3: still want to go to Atlanta, finalize that deal, or
Speaker 3: I fancy an opportunity in the Premier League. So it's
Speaker 3: a bit of a nervous wait there for Atlanta United.
Speaker 3: And then if they get to probably four or five
Speaker 3: days left of the window and they don't think that
Speaker 3: that one's possible, or a Premier League suitter comes in
Speaker 3: and it's off the table. That's where they've put I
Speaker 3: wouldn't quite call it a backup bid because that's disrespectful
Speaker 3: to the money offered and the player. But the Edward
Speaker 3: situation is a bid in the region of twenty million
Speaker 3: US dollars, which again underlies the big spending of Atlanta
Speaker 3: and how ambitious they've been so far in this window.
Speaker 3: And the expectation again is that financially speaking, that offer
Speaker 3: will be good enough and then it will be down
Speaker 3: to the player to decide whether or not he wants
Speaker 3: an MLS opportunity. And I think it's fifty to fifty
Speaker 3: as to whether he agrees to that move, especially knowing
Speaker 3: at the moment it's on ice, because Atlanta's number one
Speaker 3: priority remains latt a laugh.
Speaker 1: Our buddy Ben Jacobs from a give me sport and
Speaker 1: talk sport where I get to hear him do play
Speaker 1: by play occasionally here on this side of the pond,
Speaker 1: propping and by and hanging out with us here this
Speaker 1: morning in the middle of silly season, let me ask
Speaker 1: you about Atlanta United and MLS's place in the world. Sphere.
Speaker 1: How do you think, from all of your interaction and
Speaker 1: all the work that you do, how is Major League
Speaker 1: Soccer viewed as a quote end quote player on the
Speaker 1: world stage and chasing after talent? And I guess Atlanta
Speaker 1: United sub subsection B of that. How do you think
Speaker 1: Atlanta United is viewed as a player a pursuer of
Speaker 1: talent there on that side of the Atlantic.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I think we started, didn't we, with the prism of exports,
Speaker 3: and that was our kind of window into MLS. Now,
Speaker 3: as we see from Maritzio Pochtino's international squad, the vast
Speaker 3: majority of male players anyway that have come through MLS
Speaker 3: have ended up exploding on the scene somewhere in Europe.
Speaker 3: And that's the kind of Christian policic ripple effect. But
Speaker 3: if you go back further, there's the sort of every
Speaker 3: American top goalkeeper under the sun in the Brad Guzan, Tim.
Speaker 2: Howard, Casey Keller era again finding.
Speaker 3: Their way over to a European club, and more often
Speaker 3: than not in the Premier League as well. And once
Speaker 3: you got that influx, I think the opportunity to find
Speaker 3: young players from MLS really became clear to most clubs
Speaker 3: and fans, and there's definitely now not this feeling of
Speaker 3: an American player coming to Europe and not being good
Speaker 3: enough in terms of technique or development. If anything, it's
Speaker 3: the opposite now, and there's a feeling that the infrastructure
Speaker 3: that you have in place through the college system and
Speaker 3: the USL into the MLS is very secure and structured
Speaker 3: and it's created a new generation of both male and
Speaker 3: female talent that can go on to big things. So
Speaker 3: then phase two is can you keep these players in MLS,
Speaker 3: Because although it's great to say you develop them and
Speaker 3: sell them on very early in their career, the way
Speaker 3: MLS grows is obviously by cultivating homegrown or home based
Speaker 3: talent and keeping them in the league for as long
Speaker 3: as possible, and that's what raises the standard and the
Speaker 3: value of it. And then if foreigners come as well,
Speaker 3: you have that balance, as we've seen from the Premier
Speaker 3: League since the early nineties, that allows the lead to develop.
Speaker 3: And it is a balance between wanting US talents and
Speaker 3: promoting them in addition to having those box office stars
Speaker 3: to get global eyeballs. And I think unlike USA ninety four,
Speaker 3: we're now going to see the World Cup in twenty
Speaker 3: twenty six have a really meaningful legacy in terms of grassroots,
Speaker 3: in terms of infrastructure, hopefully a strong knock on effect
Speaker 3: to the women's game as well. So I think MLS
Speaker 3: now is starting to catch the eye. There's more global broadcasters,
Speaker 3: there's more foreign talent coming over. What a coup for
Speaker 3: Charlotte to get Zaha or for Atlanta to be able
Speaker 3: to re sign Miguel almere And I think the almeor
Speaker 3: On thing shows you, even though he's a little bit
Speaker 3: older now. Of course, that full circle moment when he
Speaker 3: left Atlanta United and realized he was going on to
Speaker 3: big things. Did he think at that point that he
Speaker 3: would go full circle and still feel that he could
Speaker 3: offer something in terms of peak Almero on returning to
Speaker 3: Atlanta United, and I think when he left, the appetite
Speaker 3: to return probably wasn't there. But now he realizes that
Speaker 3: he's walking into a very competitive league of.
Speaker 2: A high standard.
Speaker 3: Then you look specifically at Atlanta United and I think
Speaker 3: it has naturally grown to be synonymous with success. I
Speaker 3: remember the twenty eighteen MLS Cup definitely putting the club
Speaker 3: on the radar, and those were the sort of glory
Speaker 3: years of course, because there was a Open Cup as well,
Speaker 3: and in addition, naturally they'd won in I think twenty
Speaker 3: eighteen the MLS Eastern Conference Championship as well. So in
Speaker 3: that kind of period we started to, I think realize
Speaker 3: how serious Atlanta United were. We know that some of
Speaker 3: the backroom staff went across from Atlanta United, like Darren
Speaker 3: Eels who was at Newcastle sadly now has ill health
Speaker 3: so has had to step away from that role. The
Speaker 3: likes of course of Tata Martino or Frank debaor and
Speaker 3: so on, all again putting the club on the map.
Speaker 3: And I just think you don't get that caliber of
Speaker 3: backroom staff, or that blend of star power and talent
Speaker 3: staying in the MLS unless your.
Speaker 2: League is progressing.
Speaker 3: So I think MLS is in a very healthy position
Speaker 3: and it's only going to get stronger off the back
Speaker 3: of the twenty twenty six World Cup.
Speaker 1: What about when it comes to flashing the wallet? So
Speaker 1: say I am insert MLS owner here or MLS Director
Speaker 1: of Soccer Operations, and I go wandering over to Europe
Speaker 1: and I'm chasing after talent. What is the perception from
Speaker 1: your mind about MLS coming over and it's like, yeah, well,
Speaker 1: I want your guys. I want your guys. I want
Speaker 1: your guys to do front officers in say Premier League, Championship,
Speaker 1: all the other leagues that you look at sit there
Speaker 1: and look at an MLS guy and go, who are
Speaker 1: you or do they actually have them as an equal
Speaker 1: player at the table and basically money talks, it doesn't
Speaker 1: matter where it comes from these days.
Speaker 3: Yeah, an equal player. Remember half the Premier League. Now
Speaker 3: we've got some form of American investor or owner. So
Speaker 3: it's flipped and you're not dealing with top clubs in
Speaker 3: England anymore that are all English, are all ingrained in
Speaker 3: English football. They're global, and you could argue they're America
Speaker 3: predominant in terms of the makeup of their collective shares.
Speaker 3: So it's actually a lot of the time an American
Speaker 3: owner dealing with an MLS club and they know exactly
Speaker 3: the potential and they know the growth opportunities.
Speaker 2: So I don't think.
Speaker 3: We're looking at America being at less of a standing,
Speaker 3: whether we're talking MLS or even USL, because remember a
Speaker 3: few years ago USL used to basically be reserve teams
Speaker 3: and that caused an issue because you had this odd
Speaker 3: balance of very young players coupled with effectively demoted ones,
Speaker 3: and there was maybe a bit of a lack of
Speaker 3: cohesiveness and balance and in some cases motivation. Now they've
Speaker 3: ditched all of that and you have a competitive league
Speaker 3: effectively a tear down from the MLS. And again you
Speaker 3: have a lot of pathways for players to come through,
Speaker 3: and global clubs realize that, so there isn't as much
Speaker 3: of a risk factor now about signing a player from MLS.
Speaker 3: And in addition to that, the clubs are cultivating partnerships
Speaker 3: because the clarity of progression for male and female players
Speaker 3: is so much stronger and arguably even more stable than
Speaker 3: in the UK, because in England you get pulled away
Speaker 3: at let's say eleven or twelve told you the next superstar.
Speaker 3: It can impact your location, your family, your schooling, whereas
Speaker 3: in America there's much more of a pathway through collegiate
Speaker 3: into USL or MLS or obviously in the case of
Speaker 3: the women, the USL Women's League or the NWSL, and
Speaker 3: the progression I think allows global clubs to track players
Speaker 3: more definitively. Plus the fact that there's a lot more
Speaker 3: emphasis now in MLS on data on injury prevention, on
Speaker 3: technical training, and what we're seeing that perhaps it didn't
Speaker 3: exist ten years ago as a result is top clubs
Speaker 3: bringing talents over at very young ages for a kind
Speaker 3: of try before you buy experience, which is part of
Speaker 3: the courting process to say, come over, watch a match,
Speaker 3: meet the squad, train with them. Sometimes it's a formal
Speaker 3: trial and a exclusive that me and Tom broke a
Speaker 3: few weeks maybe ago now was nim Fasher Birchamas, who
Speaker 3: is a Charlotte FC player and he got flown over
Speaker 3: to Manchester United. And don't think that would have happened
Speaker 3: ten fifteen years ago because likely that kind of player
Speaker 3: age profile wouldn't really have been on a top club's radar.
Speaker 3: But now most of these European teams have got full
Speaker 3: and significant scouting networks in North America. They've always had
Speaker 3: them in Central and South America as well, and the
Speaker 3: World Cup is obviously an extra opportunity with the investment
Speaker 3: to develop that grassroots talent, and the back legacy of
Speaker 3: the World Cup will be that probable twelve to sixteen
Speaker 3: age group post twenty twenty six, with all the investment
Speaker 3: and the bars and the facilities getting into their late teens,
Speaker 3: breaking into USL or MLS, and I think you'll find
Speaker 3: that there's a lot of European clubs ready to pounce
Speaker 3: for that kind of profile and talent because they realized
Speaker 3: there's a real window of opportunity to recruit in this market.
Speaker 1: All right, So before we let you go, what storylines
Speaker 1: are you chasing after today? When it comes to the
Speaker 1: Premier League in silly season and Ruben amor room trashing
Speaker 1: TVs and hunch pasta cargo. Yeah, I'm going to fix
Speaker 1: it and don't worry about everything. What are you chasing
Speaker 1: after today?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: I'm leaving the MLS to Tom, although we are both
Speaker 3: across the Almiron and Latte, latter situations which could move
Speaker 3: very quickly. I think more so Almiron than necessarily Latte laugh,
Speaker 3: only because of Burrough's perspective to wait and see for
Speaker 3: a little bit. I'm across Marcus Rushford's future. We shouldn't
Speaker 3: rule out a stay at Manchester United, but certainly Dortmund
Speaker 3: and possibly Barcelona.
Speaker 2: Are going to be there.
Speaker 3: Aleandro Garnaccho, Chelsea and Napoli both interested in the player.
Speaker 3: Key question is what price might Manchester United reluctantly sell
Speaker 3: for I'm told in the region of eighty million US dollars,
Speaker 3: possibly five or six lower than that, but as a
Speaker 3: starting point, Manchester United's valuation is very high. Mate's kuner
Speaker 3: at Wolves. He's not yet signed that new deal, so
Speaker 3: the door is just ever so slightly a jar for
Speaker 3: Arsenal and others. So it should be a busy week,
Speaker 3: and I think some of these plot lines might run right.
Speaker 2: Until February the third.
Speaker 3: And I keep having to remind myself to say February
Speaker 3: the third, because we so glibly call it the January window,
Speaker 3: and usually it is the January window, but this particular season,
Speaker 3: I should point out that in England anyway, the window
Speaker 3: shots on February the third. So we've got the best
Speaker 3: part of two weeks to try and find clarity on
Speaker 3: some of those stories that I mention.
Speaker 1: And see if there's going to be a player who's
Speaker 1: just going to sit in his car in a team's
Speaker 1: parking lot and figure out that yeah, they want me
Speaker 1: and I want to be here, but there's been no
Speaker 1: talk about you being here. Well, no, I'm still here.
Speaker 1: I'm sitting in the parking lot. Cut the promo for
Speaker 1: me working folks. Find all of your stuff well.
Speaker 3: You can follow me and Tom as well on Gimme
Speaker 3: Sport and we've got lots of breaking news and hopefully
Speaker 3: some MLS exclusives for you on x I'm at Jacobs
Speaker 3: Ben on Instagram at Ben David Jacobs and of course
Speaker 3: you can hear me on talkSPORT. I'll be back at
Speaker 3: the weekend as well for another Premier League commentary, so
Speaker 3: make sure that you get in contact with me if
Speaker 3: you're listening, and I'll give you a shouts.
Speaker 1: Out what he said as always, my friend, great to
Speaker 1: see you. Know that your Golden Ticket status is always here.
Speaker 1: So the link that I sent you this morning is
Speaker 1: good because that is the studio space if you ever
Speaker 1: want to get anything off your chest. Barbecue. Hey man,
Speaker 1: I need some barbecue. Can you send it to me?
Speaker 1: I need this, I need this, I need this. My
Speaker 1: foxes are driving me crazy. They didn't do anything. You
Speaker 1: know that you have Golden ticket status and can visit
Speaker 1: anytime and you can crash the party here in the
Speaker 1: morning show. Great to see you, my friend. We will
Speaker 1: catch up with you soon.
Speaker 3: Yeah, keep up the good work as well. Always enjoy
Speaker 3: listening to the show. And look forward to coming on soon.
Speaker 3: Have a good day everyone, You got it.
Speaker 1: Thank you Ben. There goes Ben. Ben's gonna go and
Speaker 1: go get brunch or something. And it's great to catch
Speaker 1: up with Ben. And thanks to him for putting time
Speaker 1: into his hyper busy schedule to come and visit and
Speaker 1: drop by, because my Premier League conversation with Ben would
Speaker 1: probably go another forty minutes