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Speaker 5: Maybe you are now listening to True Murder, The most
Speaker 5: shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that
Speaker 5: have written about them. Gasey Bundy, Stalhmer, The Nightstalker BTK.
Speaker 5: Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking
Speaker 5: and infamous killers in true crime history True Murder with
Speaker 5: your host journalist and author Dan Zupanski.
Speaker 6: Good evening on a cool spring day in eighteen ninety seven,
Speaker 6: Alfred Haney left his Williamston, Michigan home to earn a
Speaker 6: day's wage. He knew his wife's peculiar behaveavior had become
Speaker 6: more frequent, and yet he'd had planned on seeing the
Speaker 6: town doctor, but she assured him she was feeling much better.
Speaker 6: They would go the following day instead. When returned home
Speaker 6: that later that day, he discovered a macabre murder so
Speaker 6: bizarre that it shook the entire community to its core.
Speaker 6: His mother's severed head was set on the dinner table,
Speaker 6: adorned with a knife and fork on either side. Lying
Speaker 6: nearby was the old woman's body, soaked in kerosene and
Speaker 6: set ablaze. Screaming, Alfred Haney ran from the house in
Speaker 6: search of the law, and while neighbors tried to extinguish
Speaker 6: the smoldering beheaded corpse, Haney's wife, Martha, removed herself to
Speaker 6: the backyard and began digging wildly with her hands. Shortly
Speaker 6: after the discovery, a sheriff's deputy arrived, taking Martha into
Speaker 6: custody and lodging her in the local jail at the
Speaker 6: village hall Ingham. County Sheriff John Rayley, known as JJ
Speaker 6: among his constituents, arrived by train and surveyed the carnage.
Speaker 6: He and his deputy discovered the murder weapon, an axe,
Speaker 6: hidden behind some boards under the rear stoop. Rayleigh organized
Speaker 6: a coroner's inquest that was held inside the house where
Speaker 6: the old woman's body lay, in an attempt to determine
Speaker 6: her state of mind at the time of the crime.
Speaker 6: Local doctors interviewed the murderess. She told them she spoke
Speaker 6: frequently with her own dead mother, and her mother had
Speaker 6: told her to kill the old woman. Over the next
Speaker 6: several days, court hearings decided her ultimate fate. A panel
Speaker 6: of three doctors were commissioned to determine her sanity. In
Speaker 6: the end, there would be no prosecution. Deemed insane, she
Speaker 6: was sentenced to the Michigan Home for the Dangerous and
Speaker 6: Criminally Insane. In Ionia, What made Martha Hainey snap and
Speaker 6: behead her mother in law? The book that we're featuring
Speaker 6: this evening is to Hell I Must Go, The True Story,
Speaker 6: The True story of Michigan's Lizzie with my special guest,
Speaker 6: journalist and author Rod Sadler. Welcome to the program, and
Speaker 6: thank you for agreeing to this interview. Rod Sadler.
Speaker 7: Oh, thank you very much for having me. I've been
Speaker 7: looking forward to it.
Speaker 6: Thank you very much. Very very interesting tale again one
Speaker 6: of those that bringing back the history of true crime. Amazing,
Speaker 6: very story. Amazing story. So let's get right to this
Speaker 6: and tell us a little bit about I guess first off,
Speaker 6: we have to describe sort of the area and the time,
Speaker 6: and we are talking about eighteen ninety seven. So let's
Speaker 6: go back to the lateeent eighteen nineties and tell us
Speaker 6: a little bit about Williamston and the state of the
Speaker 6: nation at that time before we talk about Mariah and
Speaker 6: her son Alfie and Martha Well.
Speaker 7: Williamston is actually situated in the mid Michigan area within
Speaker 7: Ingham County. At the time, it was just a small
Speaker 7: village located in the northeastern part of the county. It
Speaker 7: really had become kind of a hub of commerce over
Speaker 7: the previous thirty or forty years. The railroad had finally
Speaker 7: come through town. Obviously, transportation was by horse and buggy
Speaker 7: or by train. There was not a lot of telephones
Speaker 7: at the time, although I think the following year that
Speaker 7: there actually was a couple of them. But at the time,
Speaker 7: as far as I've been able to tell, communication outside
Speaker 7: the Walliams scenario was done with telegraph. The political climate
Speaker 7: at the time it was an election year the previous year,
Speaker 7: and JJ Railey actually was my great great grandfather, and
Speaker 7: he had actually run for sheriff in eighteen ninety and
Speaker 7: been defeated, and then ran again in eighteen ninety six
Speaker 7: and won under the People's Union Silver Democratic Party, which
Speaker 7: actually was an offshoot of the Democrat the original Democratic Party,
Speaker 7: so they were kind of split down the middle over
Speaker 7: the free silver issue in the political arena. But he
Speaker 7: was part of the Free Silver Party and he was
Speaker 7: elected in eighteen ninety six and he ended up actually
Speaker 7: investigating this murder.
Speaker 6: Interesting, now, tell us just a little bit about the
Speaker 6: state of the economy at that time, especially in this area,
Speaker 6: but just in general in the United States, and tell
Speaker 6: us maybe what you know. Again you've spoken to it
Speaker 6: a little bit, but tell us a little bit more
Speaker 6: for people that again, this is all new to many
Speaker 6: many people. What happened one hundred and twenty years ago.
Speaker 7: The nation had gone through a depression in the early
Speaker 7: eighteen nineties, and that's what actually split the Democratic Party
Speaker 7: in how they wanted to address the issue and the
Speaker 7: recovery from that depression, and one of the ways was
Speaker 7: to coin what they called free silver at a ratio
Speaker 7: of sixteen to one or I can't recall the exact number.
Speaker 7: And the other half of the Democratic Party, if you will,
Speaker 7: they wanted to just support the farmer. So it really
Speaker 7: was it split that party down the middle. They had
Speaker 7: slowly started a recovery from that depression, but I think
Speaker 7: overall at the time it was still it was still
Speaker 7: very hard times. They were slowly making their recovery.
Speaker 6: Now, tell us a little bit about Mariah. Where you
Speaker 6: haven't in the book is that she you don't talk
Speaker 6: too much about her married life, but she had another husband.
Speaker 6: She's a widow. So tell us a little bit about
Speaker 6: Mariah and her husband before we talk about her son, Alfie.
Speaker 7: Well, Mariah and her husband they had actually been some
Speaker 7: of the first settlers in the area. One of the
Speaker 7: townships near they actually this murder occurred in Wheatfield Township,
Speaker 7: but an adjacent township was called Locke township, and she
Speaker 7: had been along with her husband, some of the original
Speaker 7: settlers there. Her husband actually had been a Civil War
Speaker 7: veteran and he had survived the Civil War but ended
Speaker 7: up passing away in the eighteen seventies, so he had
Speaker 7: been gone a number of years. And they were farmers.
Speaker 7: They were a farming family, and she ended up moving
Speaker 7: in with her son and his young bride in Williamstown
Speaker 7: in a very small shack, if you will. They essentially
Speaker 7: were paupers. She was very poor, as was her son
Speaker 7: and his wife, and they essentially lived off the community,
Speaker 7: if you will. Now exactly what that means as far
Speaker 7: as eighteen ninety seven, maybe it was the original form
Speaker 7: of welfare in that maybe they just you know, begbarn
Speaker 7: or stole, you know. I really don't know beyond that,
Speaker 7: but all the newspaper articles in the research that I did,
Speaker 7: indicated that they were very poor and they were supported
Speaker 7: by the community. So they actually she had moved from
Speaker 7: the country into the city or right on the edge
Speaker 7: of the city the village with her son and his wife.
Speaker 6: Well, let's go back a little bit because we have
Speaker 6: to introduce Martha Alfie's wife. And Martha had been married
Speaker 6: when she was sixteen and her husband was twenty one,
Speaker 6: John Woodward. And there is the story that you chronicle
Speaker 6: about that when Alfie meets her, she has no children.
Speaker 6: He asked the story about it. And then you also
Speaker 6: include the story of Reverend Sly and his Rocky Beach
Speaker 6: benevolent association. So tell us about Martha and her marriage
Speaker 6: to John Woodward. It didn't last too long? In the
Speaker 6: three children, and what happened to the three children? How
Speaker 6: did she deal with those children? And why is it
Speaker 6: that she came to the marriage with Alfie and there
Speaker 6: were no children.
Speaker 7: Well, what had happened was she did mary very young
Speaker 7: at the age of sixteen, to a gentleman from Ohio
Speaker 7: by the name of John Woodard, and together she and
Speaker 7: John Woodard had three children. The original research that I did,
Speaker 7: one of the newspaper articles indicated that when her youngest
Speaker 7: child was just old enough to sit up, essentially, she
Speaker 7: disappeared with that child and on foot, and she was
Speaker 7: gone for several days, and when she returned, the child
Speaker 7: was gone. And the implication was, or the suggestion was,
Speaker 7: that she had put the child out of existence. And
Speaker 7: this was this came to light as a result of
Speaker 7: the murder article that the book was about. They were
Speaker 7: highlighting the murder, and then they mentioned the fact that
Speaker 7: she had married this John Woodard. John Woodard eventually abandoned her,
Speaker 7: I have to assume, probably because of her mental illness,
Speaker 7: although I don't know that for certain, but he did
Speaker 7: abandon her, and soon thereafter, within probably three years, she
Speaker 7: remarried a gentleman by the name of Alfred Haney. That
Speaker 7: would be Mariah's son, and he was known around town.
Speaker 7: His nickname was Alfie Alfy, and so throughout the book
Speaker 7: I refer to Alfie. I learned later in my research
Speaker 7: for the book that in fact, she had not put
Speaker 7: her youngest child out of existence. She had actually turned
Speaker 7: the child over to a gentleman by the name of
Speaker 7: Reverend Sly. Reverend Sly ran an orphanage in Lansing, which
Speaker 7: is Michigan State capital. He ran an orphanage for children,
Speaker 7: and she had turned that child over to him, and
Speaker 7: the child was subsequently put up for adoption. I was
Speaker 7: actually able to locate in my research an original ledger
Speaker 7: from the orphanage and actually found the original document that
Speaker 7: she signed over custody of that child to Reverend sly,
Speaker 7: So that was kind of a fascinating aspect of the
Speaker 7: whole story. But she did not kill her children. They
Speaker 7: were all turned over for adoption to the Rocky Beach
Speaker 7: Benevolent Association.
Speaker 6: What did she tell Alfred when she I alluded to
Speaker 6: it or I mentioned it that she didn't have any
Speaker 6: children until when she married Alfie. What did she tell
Speaker 6: Alfie about the children and her husband?
Speaker 7: You know, I had to make some assumptions there the
Speaker 7: actual conversation between her and him regarding the children. I
Speaker 7: really don't know. The article or the research articles that
Speaker 7: I read mentioned nothing about Alfie's concern about the children,
Speaker 7: So I have to assume that that he made the
Speaker 7: assumption that, hey, they're not here. I never really asked
Speaker 7: about them. But obviously the three children, even though they
Speaker 7: had been turned up or turned over for adoption, in essence,
Speaker 7: played an essential role in the cause of Mariah Haney's murder,
Speaker 7: And we can discuss that in a little bit here.
Speaker 7: But I think that it was all over the children.
Speaker 6: Let's also talk about what you do describing the book too.
Speaker 6: Is when when you talk about they were poor, we're
Speaker 6: talking about a whole I mean, we have to you
Speaker 6: have to qualify that basically is that these were dirt poor.
Speaker 6: This is a dirty squalor that they're living in. And
Speaker 6: he doesn't work. You say that they have to live
Speaker 6: off the charity of the community. But at this point
Speaker 6: in later on, he does get some work through the community,
Speaker 6: some labor work, and so he is busy for a
Speaker 6: change where he hasn't been busy for years. He's busy.
Speaker 6: And you also talk about the relationship between Mariah, his
Speaker 6: mother and Martha, and right from the very beginning you
Speaker 6: say that they really didn't get along. Can you tell
Speaker 6: us did you find out why initially Mariah didn't like
Speaker 6: the daughter in law Mark?
Speaker 7: Well, I think that that she recognized early on that
Speaker 7: that Martha had some emotional issues, some mental health issues.
Speaker 7: Martha frequently spoke with her dead mother. The research indicates
Speaker 7: that she would break into religious fervor quite frequently and
Speaker 7: at inopportune times. It also alluded to the fact that
Speaker 7: she had suffered epilepsy throughout her entire life. You know,
Speaker 7: does that qualify as mental illness today to you and me,
Speaker 7: not by any means. But back then, before they probably
Speaker 7: knew what it was, that was probably part of it.
Speaker 7: And maybe maybe because of that she was treated differently
Speaker 7: and and her mental illness just went downhill from there.
Speaker 7: But Mariah did not like Martha, and Martha Uh in
Speaker 7: turn did not like Mariah. In fact, on the morning
Speaker 7: of the murder, she had made the statement to Alfie
Speaker 7: that that that she wanted Mariah out of the house.
Speaker 7: And Alfred obviously was not going to turn his mother out.
Speaker 7: He just kind of ignored the issue. But there was
Speaker 7: a there was apparently we've lost our connection. I'm going
Speaker 7: to try to reconnect with you here shortly. Good evening,
Speaker 7: Henry there.
Speaker 6: Yes, we've had I got dropped here in the phone
Speaker 6: in the in the queue here, So I'm glad we're
Speaker 6: both back at it, and I'll do some edity. Oh absolutely,
Speaker 6: that's anyway where we were last speaking about. Maybe take
Speaker 6: it from there. We were talking about the living conditions
Speaker 6: with Mariah and Martha, that they didn't like each other,
Speaker 6: and you noted that she probably noted that she didn't
Speaker 6: like Mark because of the mental illness that she had
Speaker 6: noted so, and I also mentioned that that Alfie for
Speaker 6: a change, was working steadily. So tell us about as
Speaker 6: you described in the book, that there was they were
Speaker 6: right next door to a bunch of workmen, and so
Speaker 6: tell us about some of the things that the workmen
Speaker 6: saw even weeks before. In terms of the relationship between
Speaker 6: Mariah and Martha.
Speaker 7: Well, the house was actually located next to what was
Speaker 7: known as the Stave Factory. They made barrels that were
Speaker 7: shipped all over the United States and worldwide, and it
Speaker 7: was a pretty big business for Williamston at the time.
Speaker 7: They sold several thousand per year, and the house literally
Speaker 7: sat right next door to that, and the workers quite
Speaker 7: frequently would see Martha and Mariah arguing and going at it,
Speaker 7: if you will, And they would also often see Martha
Speaker 7: outside wandering around singing religious songs. As a matter of fact,
Speaker 7: on the morning of the murder itself, they saw Martha
Speaker 7: outside singing and swinging what they described as a ladle
Speaker 7: over her head while she walked around the yard. So
Speaker 7: they were familiar that with Martha and her and her
Speaker 7: mental illness, and they were familiar with the animosity that
Speaker 7: she had towor her mother in law and vice versa. Again,
Speaker 7: they sat right next to the house and in fact
Speaker 7: played a pivotal role in the discovery of the murder.
Speaker 6: Now, let's backtrack a little bit, because of course we
Speaker 6: have to get to the day in question. Now, as
Speaker 6: Alfie's working, he's actually getting steady wage. One day he
Speaker 6: sees this Doc.
Speaker 4: Way.
Speaker 6: So tell us how this conversation comes and what is
Speaker 6: the impetus for for Alfie to suddenly think and consider
Speaker 6: that maybe he should talk to a doctor. What was
Speaker 6: it was a coincidence? Tell us about this incident with
Speaker 6: doctor Shumway.
Speaker 7: I think it was happenstance quite frankly. I think that
Speaker 7: he saw the doctor and he took he took the
Speaker 7: initiative to say, hey, you know, I've got some problems
Speaker 7: with my wife. She needs to she needs to see
Speaker 7: a professional, she needs to seek some professional help. And
Speaker 7: pardon me, the doctor of course said, you bet bring
Speaker 7: her down. The townsfolk knew about Martha two. They knew
Speaker 7: that that that she suffered from some mental instability. They
Speaker 7: had seen her around town too, So Doc Shumway, I'm
Speaker 7: sure was familiar with her also. And when when Alfred
Speaker 7: finally took the initiative to say, hey, can I bring
Speaker 7: her in to see you?
Speaker 4: Uh?
Speaker 7: He was he was all about it. You know, he
Speaker 7: was gonna he was gonna he was going to try
Speaker 7: to help Alfred out.
Speaker 6: Did he did? He did, Alfred, because you didn't mention it,
Speaker 6: but you do mention in the book. Did Alfred say
Speaker 6: very much about the condition of his wife and the
Speaker 6: behavior's wife at that short little happenstance meeting.
Speaker 7: You know, I don't. I don't think that he did.
Speaker 7: I think that he just said that that she had
Speaker 7: some problems. You know, there may have been he may
Speaker 7: have alluded to some of the problems that she had,
Speaker 7: but essentially he wanted to get her in the next
Speaker 7: day if that was possible, and of course the doctor said, sure,
Speaker 7: bring her in because he was he I think the
Speaker 7: doctor knew based on what he'd seen her of her
Speaker 7: around town, that that she suffered from some sort of
Speaker 7: mental illness.
Speaker 4: To so.
Speaker 7: The exact conversation that that was not something I was
Speaker 7: able to track down right just.
Speaker 6: For the audience as well. What was Martha's mother died?
Speaker 6: You say in eighteen ninety I believe, and she died
Speaker 6: in Ionia where there is the asylum for the criminally insane.
Speaker 6: So did you that's his mother died. Did her mother
Speaker 6: die in the asylum for the criminally insane? Or just
Speaker 6: in Ionia.
Speaker 7: Well, that's one of the mysteries of the book. I
Speaker 7: have to tell you that the research indicates that she
Speaker 7: died in Ionia. Does not say the the home for
Speaker 7: the dangerous and criminally insane, but I will I will
Speaker 7: say that Martha came from a farming family. They lived
Speaker 7: just south of Williamston on Lynn Road, and to go
Speaker 7: anywhere back in those days, you know a long distance,
Speaker 7: the ideal way is to do it by train if
Speaker 7: you're a farming community or a farmer in a small community.
Speaker 7: I'm wondering what they would be doing in Ionia. And so,
Speaker 7: based on Martha's mental illness and what I was able
Speaker 7: to find out later once the book was actually completed,
Speaker 7: I truly believe, although I don't have any proof, I
Speaker 7: truly believe that her mother may have been institutionalized and
Speaker 7: may have died at the same asylum where she ended
Speaker 7: up being sentenced to. Again, I don't have any proof
Speaker 7: of that. I did try to find some of Martha's
Speaker 7: mental health records, and those under Michigan law are all sealed.
Speaker 7: It doesn't matter how old they are. Due to the
Speaker 7: Patient Privacy Act. You don't have access to him. So
Speaker 7: I was not able to find that out, but I
Speaker 7: do know that her mother died in Ionia, and I
Speaker 7: have to assume that it was probably at the asylum.
Speaker 6: Now, there was some indication that Alfie had seen as well,
Speaker 6: and obviously Mariah had seen this as well, that she
Speaker 6: did have a hair trigger temper. Martha that there was
Speaker 6: some indication of of violence. So there was that, wasn't there.
Speaker 7: I think that there was, Yes, I've indicated that in
Speaker 7: the book, because because the two hated each other, they
Speaker 7: had that animosity. It had reached the boiling point. And
Speaker 7: I think that that there was probably that that one
Speaker 7: point that pushed her over the edge, and how violent
Speaker 7: it go before that, There was nothing to indicate any
Speaker 7: physical violence. I think it was strictly mental anguish or
Speaker 7: mental violence, if you will, the yelling, the screaming at
Speaker 7: each other, the hate for one another.
Speaker 6: Let's get to back to the conversation with the doctor.
Speaker 6: So this is a Thursday. Alfie says that he would
Speaker 6: like to bring her in, and the doctor agrees that
Speaker 6: the next day might be a good idea. So Thursday
Speaker 6: night he goes home his mother and Martha. So tell
Speaker 6: us how what hall about incident? Unfolds and tell us
Speaker 6: how he gives her this bit of information. He's not
Speaker 6: asking her, he's giving her their information about the doctor
Speaker 6: and the visit. So tell us how that conversation transpired,
Speaker 6: and what is her reaction and the mother's reaction. Tell
Speaker 6: us about what have you written in the book.
Speaker 7: Well, I think that that Alfred was essentially afraid to
Speaker 7: probably confront her about it, and so he said it
Speaker 7: more in passing Hey, while they're sitting there at the
Speaker 7: dinner table. Hey, by the way, we're going to see
Speaker 7: Doc Shumway tomorrow, whether you like it or not. I
Speaker 7: think that that Mariah, also being at the dinner table,
Speaker 7: feared that conversation, feared that that Martha may lose it,
Speaker 7: that she may become aggressive or violent. And so if
Speaker 7: you can imagine an old woman sitting there, you know,
Speaker 7: a very slight old woman in her eighties, trying to
Speaker 7: avoid a confrontation with her daughter in law, you know,
Speaker 7: trying to eat and probably watch out of the corner
Speaker 7: of her eye for some sort of reaction. Uh. That's
Speaker 7: that's how I pictured that conversation going. Martha didn't want
Speaker 7: to go she obviously she knew that if she did
Speaker 7: she would be found out, the doc would determine that
Speaker 7: she was mentally unstable, and so she kind of shut
Speaker 7: down to the point where she went and laid on
Speaker 7: the floor in the living room, and she laid there
Speaker 7: all night wondering how she could get out of this
Speaker 7: doctor's appointment, if you will, How she could avoid going
Speaker 7: to see the doctor the next day. And the only
Speaker 7: way that she could do it was try to convince
Speaker 7: Alfred or Alfie that she was fine. And so that's
Speaker 7: what she went about doing. The next morning. She convinced him, Hey,
Speaker 7: I'm much better. She put on a good show. She
Speaker 7: was smiling, something that Alfred hadn't seen in a very
Speaker 7: very long time, and she convinced him, Hey, we'll go tomorrow.
Speaker 7: I think that her plan was, Hey, well, i'll convince
Speaker 7: him we'll go tomorrow, and maybe he'll just forget about it,
Speaker 7: or he'll get caught up doing something else and we'll
Speaker 7: just keep putting it off and it'll be forgotten, and
Speaker 7: I'll try to keep him convinced that I'm okay. And
Speaker 7: she did a good job of that. She convinced him
Speaker 7: that morning, Hey, I'm fine, I don't need to go
Speaker 7: see the doctor. Well, you have to understand that they're living,
Speaker 7: they're living as paupers, and they have no money. And
Speaker 7: Alfred has the chance that day to go out. He's
Speaker 7: got a job working on the streets. He goes out
Speaker 7: to earn a day's wage, and so he's he's satisfying. Hey,
Speaker 7: she seems okay today. All right, we'll take her tomorrow.
Speaker 7: You know, what's one more day I've got tomorrow off,
Speaker 7: I'll go out work on the street today. I'll learn
Speaker 7: a little bit of a wage. That way, maybe I've
Speaker 7: got some money to pay the doctor. And so that's
Speaker 7: how that's how that all came about. He had an
Speaker 7: appointment for her to see the doctor, and she convinced
Speaker 7: him that she was okay.
Speaker 6: Now, soon after he leaves for work, because he's coming
Speaker 6: home for lunch at noon or so, so he's coming
Speaker 6: home for lunch. The two women are arguing, and now
Speaker 6: it becomes a little testy, or more testy, because what
Speaker 6: Mariah sees is that the the framed photo of the
Speaker 6: frame that she has with her husband in this frame,
Speaker 6: and now that frame, the husband's photo is not in there,
Speaker 6: and it's replaced with Well, tell us what it's replaced by.
Speaker 6: And why Mariah is so upset. What did Martha do?
Speaker 7: Well, Mariah had a picture of her deceased husband, her
Speaker 7: Civil War veteran husband who had been gone for a
Speaker 7: number of years. She had that in a frame, and
Speaker 7: Martha took that frame and tore out the picture of
Speaker 7: Mariah's husband and replaced it with a picture of her
Speaker 7: three children. When Mariah saw that, she too lost it.
Speaker 7: She had had enough. She lost it. And when she
Speaker 7: and Martha got into it, they began to shove each other,
Speaker 7: and at some point Martha went out the front door
Speaker 7: of the house and Mariah locked her out, and that
Speaker 7: was all over, the picture of the kids that she
Speaker 7: had put in that frame, replacing the picture of Mariah's
Speaker 7: dead husband.
Speaker 6: And we've got quite the scene here, because this Mariah
Speaker 6: is eighty five years old at this time, and she's
Speaker 6: not a big woman, and Martha is a kind of
Speaker 6: frail and not a big woman as well. But Mariah
Speaker 6: hits Martha and they get into a shoving match, and
Speaker 6: like you say, they lock her out. So what does
Speaker 6: Martha do now? And before you you also included again
Speaker 6: we talked about the stave business next door and those
Speaker 6: workers that would usually be witnessing their arguing between these women,
Speaker 6: and so they didn't think it was anything out of
Speaker 6: the ordinary. They did hear them arguing that day, and
Speaker 6: even did see Martha briefly outside, but they didn't see
Speaker 6: what she did next. So tell us what Martha does next.
Speaker 7: Martha, once she gets locked outside, her her temper is boiling.
Speaker 7: She's reached the breaking point, if you will. She she
Speaker 7: goes around the house and she gets an axe and
Speaker 7: she because she's now locked out of the house. The
Speaker 7: workers at the stave mill saw her locked out. They
Speaker 7: had heard the two women arguing, but it was it
Speaker 7: was an everyday occurrence. They thought nothing of it. Okay,
Speaker 7: Martha's locked out, locked out of the front of the house,
Speaker 7: let's go back to work. Big deal. So so what
Speaker 7: they don't see is Martha go around to the back
Speaker 7: of the house and grab an axe. Martha brings that
Speaker 7: axe back around to the front of the house and
Speaker 7: she begins to She begins to hack away at the
Speaker 7: front door while Mariah is inside, and she can Mariah
Speaker 7: can now hear this, this loud banging on the front door,
Speaker 7: and suddenly she sees the head of this acts coming,
Speaker 7: you know, slashing through the door, and essentially Martha ends
Speaker 7: up taking the door right down, all knocking it completely off.
Speaker 7: I think there was one hinge left that was hanging
Speaker 7: on one hinge. And then she's face to face with
Speaker 7: her mother in law in the living room and she's
Speaker 7: got the axe in her hand.
Speaker 6: And go ahead, So I didn't want to stop.
Speaker 7: I'm sorry dramatic pause there. So she swings the axe
Speaker 7: and she knocks Mariah down. And I have to preface
Speaker 7: this by saying that the newspaper articles were very, very
Speaker 7: descriptive on some of the injuries to Mariah. And so
Speaker 7: Martha knocks Mariah down, and she swings a second time
Speaker 7: and misses her, but then connects the third time and
Speaker 7: essentially knocks knocks Mariah out. She then stomps on her
Speaker 7: with her feet. She tells later in an interview when
Speaker 7: this this crime is being investigated, she tells the people
Speaker 7: that she's talking to, I stomped on her as hard
Speaker 7: as I could with my feet. So now you've got
Speaker 7: Mariah laying there in the living room near death, and
Speaker 7: Martha realizes, hey, I've got this axe here, and she's
Speaker 7: getting You have to assume that she's probably a little
Speaker 7: ticked off it at Alfie two because Alfred wants her
Speaker 7: to go see the doctor. So she wants she wants
Speaker 7: to give Alford a little present, a little wife's gift.
Speaker 7: She takes the axe and she commences to chop off
Speaker 7: her mother in law's head. And I can tell you
Speaker 7: that if you're beheading a person, it's not an easy task.
Speaker 7: It's not unless you're using a guillotine or a guillotine
Speaker 7: you're not going to get it in one whack. And
Speaker 7: the newspaper articles describe several hack marks in the floor
Speaker 7: with embedded flesh and gray hair into this living room floor.
Speaker 7: And once Martha succeeds in chopping off her mother in
Speaker 7: law's head, she begins to panic. She's like, now, what
Speaker 7: do I do? What am I going to do with this?
Speaker 7: What if someone figures out that I did this? You know,
Speaker 7: She's got a million emotions running through her mind. So
Speaker 7: she decides, hey, I'm gonna give Alfred a present. She
Speaker 7: picks up her mother in law's head and she carries
Speaker 7: it to the kitchen table and she sets it at
Speaker 7: Alfred's place, setting on a plate, and then she adorns
Speaker 7: the plate on both sides with a knife and fork silverware.
Speaker 7: Then she looks at her handiwork her mother in law's
Speaker 7: bruised and beaten head on this plate. And then she
Speaker 7: goes back to the living room and she drags Martha's
Speaker 7: body to the kitchen, her headless body, Mariah's body. Then
Speaker 7: she takes a kerosene lamping.
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Speaker 7: She douses the body in kerosene and or what's left
Speaker 7: of the body, and she then takes up pan from
Speaker 7: the stove, and it's got some small potatoes in it,
Speaker 7: and she dumps those out onto the floor in this
Speaker 7: pool of blood. And she reaches into the stove and
Speaker 7: grabs some hot coals and puts them in this pan.
Speaker 7: She then lays the pan on the floor between her
Speaker 7: mother in law's legs, hoping that the heat or the
Speaker 7: coals will set her body on fire. And it does,
Speaker 7: it does, and at that point she disappear essentially into
Speaker 7: the bedroom. Just about that same time, Alfred Han's coming
Speaker 7: home for lunch. He's walking along. Alfred had this way
Speaker 7: of walking. He walked kind of hunched over with his
Speaker 7: hands behind his back. He was known around town to
Speaker 7: walk that way. And so he's walking kind of hunched over,
Speaker 7: kind of looking at the ground, doesn't really notice little
Speaker 7: wisps of smoke coming from inside the house, doesn't really
Speaker 7: notice as he walks in that the front door is
Speaker 7: only hanging from one hinge. And he walks in, and
Speaker 7: he's aghast at what he sees. Can you imagine that site? Literally?
Speaker 7: Can you imagine how horrific that site would be? I can't.
Speaker 7: I was a police officer for thirty years. I've never
Speaker 7: seen anything like that, and I've seen some pretty bad stuff.
Speaker 7: But he sees that, he screams and he runs from
Speaker 7: the house. He's going to find the local deputy who's
Speaker 7: assigned to this little village of Williamstown. About that same time,
Speaker 7: the stave workers next door. They hear the pardon me,
Speaker 7: They hear Alfie scream and you're looking. He's running away,
Speaker 7: and they notice the wisps of smoke coming from the house.
Speaker 7: They figure Alfie's discovered that his house is on fire.
Speaker 7: They've got no idea what's going on inside. They've completely
Speaker 7: forgotten about the two women that were arguing, and so
Speaker 7: a couple of them run over and they grab buckets
Speaker 7: of water and they start throwing it through a side
Speaker 7: window of the house, trying to put out whatever is
Speaker 7: burning inside. They can't see it there because of the smoke.
Speaker 7: At this point, a third guy runs around to the
Speaker 7: front of the house and he runs in past this
Speaker 7: front door hanging on the hinge, and he is stopped
Speaker 7: in his tracks by the grizzly, horrific scene that lays
Speaker 7: before him. He's got Mariah's hat on a plate, He's
Speaker 7: got a heap of something burning on the kitchen floor.
Speaker 7: He grabs a bucket of water and pours it on
Speaker 7: Mariah's corpse, if you will, and extinguishes that. And now
Speaker 7: he's trying to take it all in. He is frozen
Speaker 7: and he's looking over at Mariah's hat on this plate.
Speaker 7: And yet I sometimes people hear this story and they're like,
Speaker 7: is this true? Yeah, this is a true story. I
Speaker 7: gotta tell you, I was astounded when I read this.
Speaker 7: He looks over, he sees the head on the plate.
Speaker 7: He's now extinguished the body which is on fire or
Speaker 7: was on fire. And he looks up just as Martha
Speaker 7: comes out of the bedroom and she's in her what
Speaker 7: they call back then is princess union suit or her underwear,
Speaker 7: if you will, And they make eye contact and he's frozen.
Speaker 7: He's he's not can you imagine. You must think you're
Speaker 7: in a dream or something, But he's frozen there. She
Speaker 7: turns around and goes back into the into the bedroom,
Speaker 7: and he is still trying to take it all in.
Speaker 7: And she comes back out, and she goes into the
Speaker 7: living room and kneels on the couch and begins to
Speaker 7: peel wallpaper off the wall. She moves the potatoes around
Speaker 7: a little bit before she heads into the into the
Speaker 7: living room. The potatoes that are laying in Mariah's blood
Speaker 7: on the floor. She goes into the living room, she
Speaker 7: starts peeling the wallpaper off at that time, the witness,
Speaker 7: mister Robinson, he decides, I think it's time to go
Speaker 7: get the law, so he exits the house. After he leaves,
Speaker 7: he's going to look for the sheriff. Martha ends up
Speaker 7: going out the back door to the house and she
Speaker 7: begins to dig in her in the backyard. Quite frankly,
Speaker 7: I have to tell you, I think that she was
Speaker 7: probably planning on bearing going to try to bury the body.
Speaker 7: When the deputy arrived, she was, as the papers put it,
Speaker 7: digging wildly in the backyard with her bare hands, and
Speaker 7: they confronted her with an eerie grin. Yeah, yeah, can
Speaker 7: you imagine that? Because the deputy's already been informed at
Speaker 7: that point by Alfie what's happened, and he's it, I mean,
Speaker 7: his backup's probably thirty miles away. So he and the
Speaker 7: witness approach her and he asks her. He says, Martha,
Speaker 7: what's going on? And she says, I killed my mother
Speaker 7: in law, and so he has the witness stay with
Speaker 7: her and he goes in the back door and he
Speaker 7: too is astounded at the site that lays before him,
Speaker 7: the head on the plate, the burned corpse laying on
Speaker 7: the floor, and he immediately steps back out and they
Speaker 7: put the handcuffs on Martha and take her down to
Speaker 7: the local village jail.
Speaker 6: Now, by Michigan law, you talk about that there needed
Speaker 6: to be an inquest when there's a death like this,
Speaker 6: and so they have to cobble together six male men
Speaker 6: jures and this quest is just basically to determine guilt
Speaker 6: and what happened, and so there's only a couple of witnesses,
Speaker 6: including Sheriff John Railey JJ. So just briefly tell us
Speaker 6: how that what happens at this inquest before we get
Speaker 6: to what how Martha reacts in prison.
Speaker 7: Well, what happens under Michigan law, and it's much like today,
Speaker 7: only it's done differently today in a courtroom, it's called
Speaker 7: a preliminary examination, where it's like a mini trial, where
Speaker 7: evidence is presented and the only thing the prosecution has
Speaker 7: to prove is whether or not a crime was committed
Speaker 7: and whether or not there's reason to believe that the
Speaker 7: person there committed the crime. That's all they have to prove.
Speaker 7: They don't have to prove any elements of the crime essentially,
Speaker 7: So back in eighteen ninety seven they had to the
Speaker 7: law required that an inquest be conducted in front of
Speaker 7: the body. That tells me at the house. It had
Speaker 7: to be done at the house. And in my research
Speaker 7: I learned that the that the sheriff didn't leave with
Speaker 7: the prisoner till late that afternoon or early evenings, so
Speaker 7: that tells me they had the inquest. They essentially round
Speaker 7: up six local men and they have the sheriff testify
Speaker 7: about what he saw when he got to town. And
Speaker 7: they had the first witness in the front of the
Speaker 7: that went in the front door and discovered the head
Speaker 7: on the plate. They had him also testify, and this
Speaker 7: was in front of the Justice of the peace, the
Speaker 7: local town justice of the peace, and clearly there was
Speaker 7: no question. Yeah there's been a crime committed, and yeah,
Speaker 7: she's already admitted that she did it, so there's reasonable
Speaker 7: cause to believe that she's the person responsible. So she's
Speaker 7: essentially remanded to the custody of JJ Railey, my great
Speaker 7: great grandfather, And so he loads her on the train
Speaker 7: and he'd take her back to the small town of Mason,
Speaker 7: which is in Ingham County. It's actually the county seat
Speaker 7: for Ingham County where she's lodged. Excuse me for the
Speaker 7: murder of her mother in law.
Speaker 6: Now, what's surprising to me is that in eighteen ninety
Speaker 6: seven the courts are as sophisticated it would seem as today.
Speaker 6: I'm very, very surprised in eighteen ninety seven that there
Speaker 6: just wasn't that there wasn't an assumption that there was
Speaker 6: no such thing as insanity. So they really take her
Speaker 6: defenders take this insanity defense, and she's going to get
Speaker 6: examined by a psychologist. So tell us how seriously they
Speaker 6: take this insanity defense in terms of assessing her and
Speaker 6: having that as part of the trial that's going to happen.
Speaker 7: Well, the insanity defense actually goes back to the eighteen sixties,
Speaker 7: and I briefly discussed that in the book back over
Speaker 7: in England, and that's where the insanity defense. In order
Speaker 7: to use it insanity defense, there are certain stipulations that
Speaker 7: have to be met, and once that was set back
Speaker 7: in the eighteen sixties, that was the basis for the
Speaker 7: insanity defense here in the United States, and that was
Speaker 7: essentially did she know did she realize at the time
Speaker 7: of the crime whether or not she did anything wrong.
Speaker 7: In fact, during one of the interviews with JJ Railey,
Speaker 7: she is asked, or it might have been with one
Speaker 7: of the doctors if she had killed her mother in law,
Speaker 7: and she said yes, but I didn't do it to
Speaker 7: be mean. Well that obviously there's there's some mental issues there.
Speaker 7: If I had done it to be mean, she makes,
Speaker 7: she audes to some statement if I had done it
Speaker 7: to be mean, then it would have been wrong or
Speaker 7: something along those lines. But clearly, I think even without
Speaker 7: statements like that, you have to you have to look
Speaker 7: at the totality of the of the crime. And clearly
Speaker 7: that is not a woman. You know, a twenty seven
Speaker 7: year old woman who beheads her mother in law and
Speaker 7: sets it on a plate. I mean, I don't need
Speaker 7: a doctor to tell me that that woman's got some
Speaker 7: mental issues.
Speaker 6: You have a mess. So everybody go ahead.
Speaker 7: Sorry, I was just gonna say so. Everybody recognized that
Speaker 7: the obviously JJ Railey, the sheriff recognized that. The Justice
Speaker 7: of the Peace when she was arraigned, recognized that. The
Speaker 7: Circuit Court judge when she was taken the following Monday
Speaker 7: up into Lancing for the Circuit Court. The judge recognized that,
Speaker 7: and it was his responsibility to appoint her an attorney,
Speaker 7: which he did, and her attorney recognized that, so they
Speaker 7: weren't working in concert against her, they were really working
Speaker 7: in concert for her, knowing that she had some mental issues.
Speaker 7: And so the doctor, I'm sorry that the judge had
Speaker 7: to take it upon himself to appoint a commission of
Speaker 7: three doctors to determine her sanity, and they essentially were
Speaker 7: briefed on the crime, talked to the people involved, interviewed
Speaker 7: her family, and discovered that, in fact, she wasn't sane.
Speaker 7: You have to understand that this crime occurred on a Friday.
Speaker 7: She goes to jail on a Friday afternoon. Saturday and
Speaker 7: Sunday she's in jail while the sheriff prepares the paperwork.
Speaker 7: She's arraigned on Monday. She goes to court on Tuesday,
Speaker 7: where a commission is established to determine her sanity, and
Speaker 7: on Wednesday morning, she is declared insane based on the
Speaker 7: three doctors on the commission, and she is shipped off
Speaker 7: to the Home for the criminally Insane on that same Wednesday.
Speaker 7: You're talking about five days time, including two weekend days.
Speaker 7: That is virtually unheard of in today's society, Absolutely unheard of.
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, you just woman in custody for improper lane
Speaker 6: change for three days.
Speaker 7: So yeah, yeah, exactly exactly what.
Speaker 6: I was going to ask is when when did Martha
Speaker 6: speak to doctors about or to JJ John Rayley about
Speaker 6: the voices commanding her? She said she spoke to when
Speaker 6: is it exactly?
Speaker 5: Is it is?
Speaker 6: Is this something that came out later or was there
Speaker 6: a record of witnesses to say, yes, she spoke about
Speaker 6: speaking to her mother and then after she was arrested,
Speaker 6: when was it that she spoke specifically of the voices
Speaker 6: from emanating from her own mother?
Speaker 7: Well, when she was originally locked up at the village
Speaker 7: jail immediately after the murder. When JJ got to town,
Speaker 7: he knew based on the crime and what he had seen,
Speaker 7: that she probably had some mental issues. So he cornered
Speaker 7: two doctors that he knew, and they were the only
Speaker 7: people that she would talk to in the jail. Uh,
Speaker 7: And she admitted to them I killed her, and she said,
Speaker 7: my mother told me to do it. My mother said
Speaker 7: kill her or she's going to kill you. So she
Speaker 7: spoke of that within hours of the crime, while she
Speaker 7: was still in the local village jail. It wasn't something
Speaker 7: that she had time to you know, Well, when they
Speaker 7: talk to me next week, I'll just tell them that
Speaker 7: my dead mother told.
Speaker 5: Me to do it.
Speaker 4: No, she she.
Speaker 7: She admitted to that immediately at the jail, that that
Speaker 7: her dead mother had told her to kill the old woman.
Speaker 7: And she maintained that position throughout the weekend. When when
Speaker 7: JJ talked to her, she she didn't recognize her own brother.
Speaker 7: Her brother had come to visit her at the jail
Speaker 7: on Saturday. She didn't recognize him. She would at the jail,
Speaker 7: she would break into religious fervor. Again. It was it
Speaker 7: was just a very bizarre situation. As a matter of fact.
Speaker 7: The title for the book is based on a song
Speaker 7: that she sang at the jail. She she would stand
Speaker 7: there in her cell and she would sing, I can't
Speaker 7: go to Heaven. To Hell I must go. Murderers don't
Speaker 7: go to heaven, so that's where I must go. And
Speaker 7: I thought that's the perfect title, right there, to Hell
Speaker 7: I must go. So that's actually a part of the
Speaker 7: ditty that she would sing at the jail, and then
Speaker 7: she would then she would just collapse in the middle
Speaker 7: of her cell. So to answer your question, yes, she did,
Speaker 7: immediately after the crime speak of her dead mother and
Speaker 7: how her dead mother had told her to kill the
Speaker 7: old woman, to kill Mariah.
Speaker 6: Now you talked about the three doctors in her defense
Speaker 6: speaking to her mental illness or insanity or schizophrenia. But
Speaker 6: yet at the same time you said, unlike most cases
Speaker 6: of trials where there's adversarial system, the prosecution was kind
Speaker 6: of going along with the defense in that there was
Speaker 6: an agreement that this woman was insane. So that being said,
Speaker 6: and being the time of eighteen ninety seven, and surely
Speaker 6: some kind of even though it's a short trial, why
Speaker 6: did they need three doctors testimony that may have been.
Speaker 7: You know, to be honest with you, I can't answer
Speaker 7: why there was three other than maybe that was the
Speaker 7: procedure that they had in place, rather than take one
Speaker 7: doctor's word for it, will appoint a commission. Excuse me.
Speaker 7: I know that the research that I did indicated that
Speaker 7: the judge himself appointed a commission of three doctors. So
Speaker 7: that was the judge's doing, and I have to assume
Speaker 7: that that was based on some sort of legal precedent,
Speaker 7: maybe from some previous insanity cases, where hey, we're not
Speaker 7: just going to have one doctor, we need to have
Speaker 7: three doctors in agreement that she needs some help.
Speaker 6: Now she's in this hospital, like after she's after she's sentenced.
Speaker 3: So the.
Speaker 6: Asylum for the criminally insane here of the Maybe you
Speaker 6: can tell us the exact title, because I've I don't
Speaker 6: have it right in front of me. But tell us
Speaker 6: about the conditions in the hospital and her behavior when
Speaker 6: she's in the hospital from people that are tending to
Speaker 6: her and want to feed her, want to speak to her.
Speaker 7: I have to tell you that the because of them,
Speaker 7: because of the Patient Privacy Act. I don't know how
Speaker 7: she acted there. I have to assume that that she
Speaker 7: acted much the same as she did on the outside world.
Speaker 7: I do. I did some research on what life was
Speaker 7: like inside an institution at that time. There was a
Speaker 7: book written in the eighteen sixties or eighteen eighties by
Speaker 7: a woman with the pen name of Nellie bly Bly.
Speaker 7: That was her pen name. She was actually a reporter
Speaker 7: and had been hired to pretend that she was insane
Speaker 7: so that she could report on the conditions within an
Speaker 7: asylum in New York. All of the asylums at the
Speaker 7: time in that time period essentially were the same as
Speaker 7: far as the treatment. All the research I did indicates
Speaker 7: everybody used the same sort of treatments at the time,
Speaker 7: although there was some breakthroughs that the doctor Long, who
Speaker 7: ran the Home for the Criminally Dangerous, dangerous and criminally
Speaker 7: insane in Ionia where Martha ended up, was trying some
Speaker 7: new things using a homopathic approach to curing mental illness,
Speaker 7: and that was treating him more essentially, treating him more
Speaker 7: like human beings rather than animals. But yet, with that
Speaker 7: being said, I think that the troubled employees still had
Speaker 7: not employees, but the troubled inmates were still treated much
Speaker 7: the same as they were around the country, and I
Speaker 7: have to assume that that Martha probably was one of those.
Speaker 7: I did did find some original papers from doctor Long
Speaker 7: at the archives, and they indicate that the inmates at
Speaker 7: the asylum were allowed to roam free within the building
Speaker 7: that they were confined to, but they did have small rooms.
Speaker 7: I can't recall exactly what they were called, but for
Speaker 7: the troubled inmates, if you will, where they were restrained
Speaker 7: and things like that. So I have to assume Martha
Speaker 7: probably had good days and bad days both.
Speaker 6: Before I before we I know, this is more of
Speaker 6: a question to we're wrapping up, but we still have
Speaker 6: a few minutes. But I wanted to ask you this
Speaker 6: question in light of the recent decision with mister Holmes
Speaker 6: the Batman movie, theaters, spree killer, mass killer, and that
Speaker 6: decision to deem him not insane, criminally responsible and sentenced him.
Speaker 6: To me, he's going to be executed, but definitely ignoring
Speaker 6: the insanity that he, you know, definitely was suffering from.
Speaker 6: In light of what you've and this sort of not
Speaker 6: adversarial situation where a judge is recommending three doctors to
Speaker 6: confirm her mental illness or insanity, what do you think?
Speaker 6: Just what do you think from one hundred and twenty
Speaker 6: years of insanity in the courts? Any any surprises? I
Speaker 6: think you can conclude.
Speaker 7: No, I think that the same. I think that the same.
Speaker 7: What's the term I'm looking for?
Speaker 6: Criteria?
Speaker 7: The same criteria is essentially used today that was used
Speaker 7: one hundred and twenty years ago. That was actually set
Speaker 7: back in the eighteen sixties with that case in England,
Speaker 7: and it comes down to did the person know that
Speaker 7: what they were doing was wrong? I have to be
Speaker 7: perfectly frank with you, I did not follow that trial
Speaker 7: in Colorado. I'm familiar with the circumstances, I think they're horrific,
Speaker 7: and I think that given the circumstances that I'm at
Speaker 7: least aware of, there was no question that he was involved.
Speaker 7: The question is did he know right from wrong? And
Speaker 7: beyond that, I can't speak to whether or not I
Speaker 7: think he was insane because I don't know what was
Speaker 7: brought out at that trial, but obviously the courts had
Speaker 7: to support that defense attorney's decision to seek the insanity
Speaker 7: defense just because of the magnet to the killing. I
Speaker 7: mean that it was absolutely horrific. But again they're using
Speaker 7: the same criteria essentially that they did one hundred years ago.
Speaker 7: Did the person know right from wrong?
Speaker 6: Well, I mean using the same criteria, Not to get
Speaker 6: into a bit debate, but I just find it odd
Speaker 6: that if you were to give modern day application to that,
Speaker 6: and politicswithstanding, sometimes whether a person's insane or not, or
Speaker 6: whether they knew right from wrong becomes less of an issue,
Speaker 6: and it's just retribution, period. And people are certainly not
Speaker 6: satisfied that a person like Holmes or anybody else in
Speaker 6: an insane killer like that would be would have any
Speaker 6: possibility of being out of an institution, and so they don't.
Speaker 6: They don't think that that person that punishment should be
Speaker 6: institutionalized as insane. So they want to guarantee that this
Speaker 6: person is given a criminal a prison conviction.
Speaker 7: Well, maybe yes, and maybe know because there there have
Speaker 7: been high profile cases where the person was deemed responsible
Speaker 7: but insane. Uh yeah. I can think of the assassination
Speaker 7: attempt on President Reagan. I can think of the assassination
Speaker 7: of John Lennon. And those are just those are just
Speaker 7: two high profile ones where you know, those two people
Speaker 7: were loved and adored, and and those two people Hinkley
Speaker 7: and and gosh, the other guy's name escapes me. But
Speaker 7: they were deemed insane and and I think the public
Speaker 7: want would wanted them to go to prison. I know
Speaker 7: I did, And when they were deemed insane, it was
Speaker 7: I don't know. I guess you just have to let
Speaker 7: the system. You have to let the system work.
Speaker 6: And I just think it's very I just think it's
Speaker 6: a very cavalier and your story has it was very
Speaker 6: very surprised me this book, in the Cavalier Approach in
Speaker 6: eighteen ninety seven. That's that's really only the point I'm
Speaker 6: making is that I think that it's very very surprising
Speaker 6: that they would come to that decision quite easily and
Speaker 6: quite readily, given you know, the heinousness of that. I mean,
Speaker 6: obviously we've been desensitized to the some of these killers
Speaker 6: over the years and discussed on this program as well.
Speaker 6: But eighteen ninety seven in a little place, it's not
Speaker 6: so common, right.
Speaker 7: So well, that's true, and it was a completely different
Speaker 7: time back then too. Yeah, you understand that although Lancing
Speaker 7: was the state capitol and part of Ingham County rural,
Speaker 7: Ingham County was was was rural and very small, and
Speaker 7: you know, you would think that people say, oh, yeah,
Speaker 7: she needs to go to prison, but yet they recognized,
Speaker 7: you know, we've seen her around town. We know that
Speaker 7: that she's got some issues. So clearly, I don't think
Speaker 7: there was any question that she was insane, and maybe
Speaker 7: that's why everybody supported, Yeah, you know, she needs to
Speaker 7: go to the institution for the rest of her life.
Speaker 7: It's the same as prison. They knew she wasn't going
Speaker 7: to get out, and in fact, go ahead, no, go ahead, sorry,
Speaker 7: oh I was just going to say. And in fact,
Speaker 7: she only survived a year there and what happened she
Speaker 7: ended up dying. I think it was about thirteen months later,
Speaker 7: she died of tuberculosis.
Speaker 6: At the institution, she was not really or taking care
Speaker 6: of herself. So she did have a pretty rapid decline
Speaker 6: in her didn't she.
Speaker 7: She did, And and I think that that TB probably
Speaker 7: ran rampant in some of those institutions. She was a
Speaker 7: very slight woman anyway, you know, for twenty seven years old,
Speaker 7: and she was very thin, gaunt, sickly looking. So I
Speaker 7: have to wonder if maybe she had that even before,
Speaker 7: even before she committed this heinous murder. Maybe she had tuberculosis,
Speaker 7: and once she was institutionalized, it just went downhill from there.
Speaker 6: Now in the beginning you mentioned, and you really haven't
Speaker 6: exploited this, but unless I misheard, I misheard you, you
Speaker 6: said that JJ. Raley was your great great grandfather.
Speaker 4: Yes, he was.
Speaker 7: He was my great great grandfather. It was I have
Speaker 7: to tell you. This whole book came about from some
Speaker 7: genealogical research I was doing. Came I was actually just
Speaker 7: looking for old crime articles with his name in him
Speaker 7: to kind of document what he did as sheriff back
Speaker 7: in the eighteen nineties, and I came across this article
Speaker 7: titled Awful Deed, which is Actually I used that as
Speaker 7: one of the chapter titles in the book, and the
Speaker 7: subtitle was woman chops offer mother in law's head with
Speaker 7: an axe, and I thought, well, that's kind of interesting.
Speaker 7: It's that morbid curiosity that cops have. And then I
Speaker 7: saw that the date was kind of in the range
Speaker 7: I was looking for, and I quick scanned it and
Speaker 7: saw his name, and it just stuck with me. I said,
Speaker 7: I've got to write a book about this, and so
Speaker 7: I spent years, literally years, doing research on it, on again,
Speaker 7: off again, you know, when I had time. And then
Speaker 7: when I finally retired, I said it's time to put
Speaker 7: Grandpa's story to paper, and I did, Well.
Speaker 6: That's why we really haven't really explored. And then for
Speaker 6: those that are going to pick up the book and
Speaker 6: further look into this story because they've been compelled by
Speaker 6: this interview, is that you really do do a character.
Speaker 6: You introduce us to this character that your great great grandfather,
Speaker 6: and you really get really intimate because it's when she's
Speaker 6: put in prison, when Martha's put in prison, it's JJ
Speaker 6: that sits out front of the cell noting that maybe
Speaker 6: she's suicidal, or thinking considering maybe she might be so
Speaker 6: he's very concerned like that, very hands on, and his
Speaker 6: wife goes and feeds her. So we're talking about a
Speaker 6: very end. Do you bring us right into this story
Speaker 6: of this compassion for this woman despite this incredible heinous nature.
Speaker 6: And it wasn't like everybody hated this Alphie Haini or
Speaker 6: the mother. There wasn't like there was any animosity towards that.
Speaker 6: But I just I kind of marvel at this story
Speaker 6: at that time in history, that there was this compassion
Speaker 6: rather than just this disdain for this woman. There seemed
Speaker 6: to be a comprehension of her mental illness, which I
Speaker 6: think was admirable.
Speaker 4: For that time.
Speaker 7: Well, I have to tell you that you're not the
Speaker 7: first person that has said anything like that. I've had
Speaker 7: several people that have read the book that have said,
Speaker 7: you know, you almost feel sorry for her at the
Speaker 7: end of the book and everything that I found, And
Speaker 7: let me preface that by saying, I didn't write this
Speaker 7: book to make my great great grandfather out to be
Speaker 7: a compassionate hero type. I put down everything that I
Speaker 7: found regarding how he handled Martha and the entire situation,
Speaker 7: and how my great great grandmother was also involved in
Speaker 7: that she was the jail matron. That's typically how it
Speaker 7: was in the eighteen nineties. The sheriff's wife was the
Speaker 7: matron and she would cook for the prisoners. In fact,
Speaker 7: later in the book, I mentioned how while he was
Speaker 7: away on a trip later after long after Martha had
Speaker 7: gone to prison, Great Gramma Ralli stopped a jail break
Speaker 7: with a gun. She caught a guy trying to break
Speaker 7: out of jail. But the very they were very compassionate people.
Speaker 7: I found nothing, nothing to indicate that they mistreated prisoners
Speaker 7: or anything like that. That's just the way they were.
Speaker 7: And so this book really offers. It offers a glimpse
Speaker 7: into a horrific, grizzly, gruesome murder in eighteen ninety seven.
Speaker 7: It offers a genealogical look at my great great grandparents.
Speaker 7: It offers a look into nineteenth century law enforcement and
Speaker 7: courts in Michigan. And those were the three things that
Speaker 7: I wanted to do in this book, and I think
Speaker 7: I've succeeded.
Speaker 6: Absolutely. It's a fascinating step back in history. And of
Speaker 6: course it includes all that context that all true crime
Speaker 6: fans really strive for, because to get a comprehension of
Speaker 6: the crime you need to have a comprehension of the time,
Speaker 6: and you also need to have a comprehension of the
Speaker 6: characters involved. And so it's been a fantastic read this
Speaker 6: The Hell. I must go, and thank you very much
Speaker 6: for coming on and talking about the Hell. I must go,
Speaker 6: so thank you very much.
Speaker 4: Rod.
Speaker 6: I wanted to ask you if you have a website
Speaker 6: or any way for people to contact you Facebook, so
Speaker 6: they might find out any more information or any other
Speaker 6: work that you've done, or in those rare circumstances people
Speaker 6: might want to contact you.
Speaker 3: I do.
Speaker 7: I have a Facebook page, Rod Sadler that's r O
Speaker 7: D S A D L E R. Author, and I
Speaker 7: also have an email address. I can be contacted through
Speaker 7: Rod Sadler author at gmail dot com. And I welcome inquiries,
Speaker 7: I welcome speaking engagements, and I just wanted to take
Speaker 7: just a quick opportunity to say thank you for allowing
Speaker 7: me to talk about this. I truly enjoyed it.
Speaker 6: Well, the pleasure was all mine and I'm sure the
Speaker 6: audience as well. So I want to thank you very
Speaker 6: much and have yourself a great evening. Thank you again
Speaker 6: for this interview.
Speaker 7: Great Thank you, Dan, You take care, good night bye,