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Gasey Bundy, Stalhmer, The Nightstalker BTK. 45 00:02:25.719 --> 00:02:29.479 Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking 46 00:02:29.680 --> 00:02:33.680 and infamous killers in true crime history True Murder with 47 00:02:33.879 --> 00:02:37.240 your host journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 48 00:02:47.479 --> 00:02:52.520 Good evening on a cool spring day in eighteen ninety seven, 49 00:02:53.000 --> 00:02:56.599 Alfred Haney left his Williamston, Michigan home to earn a 50 00:02:56.680 --> 00:03:00.680 day's wage. He knew his wife's peculiar behaveavior had become 51 00:03:00.800 --> 00:03:04.599 more frequent, and yet he'd had planned on seeing the 52 00:03:04.680 --> 00:03:08.039 town doctor, but she assured him she was feeling much better. 53 00:03:08.919 --> 00:03:13.000 They would go the following day instead. When returned home 54 00:03:13.080 --> 00:03:16.400 that later that day, he discovered a macabre murder so 55 00:03:16.599 --> 00:03:19.520 bizarre that it shook the entire community to its core. 56 00:03:20.400 --> 00:03:23.280 His mother's severed head was set on the dinner table, 57 00:03:23.719 --> 00:03:26.800 adorned with a knife and fork on either side. Lying 58 00:03:26.840 --> 00:03:30.039 nearby was the old woman's body, soaked in kerosene and 59 00:03:30.120 --> 00:03:34.840 set ablaze. Screaming, Alfred Haney ran from the house in 60 00:03:34.960 --> 00:03:38.439 search of the law, and while neighbors tried to extinguish 61 00:03:38.520 --> 00:03:42.919 the smoldering beheaded corpse, Haney's wife, Martha, removed herself to 62 00:03:43.000 --> 00:03:47.319 the backyard and began digging wildly with her hands. Shortly 63 00:03:47.400 --> 00:03:51.319 after the discovery, a sheriff's deputy arrived, taking Martha into 64 00:03:51.400 --> 00:03:54.240 custody and lodging her in the local jail at the 65 00:03:54.360 --> 00:04:00.840 village hall Ingham. County Sheriff John Rayley, known as JJ 66 00:04:01.439 --> 00:04:05.599 among his constituents, arrived by train and surveyed the carnage. 67 00:04:06.080 --> 00:04:08.800 He and his deputy discovered the murder weapon, an axe, 68 00:04:08.960 --> 00:04:12.800 hidden behind some boards under the rear stoop. Rayleigh organized 69 00:04:12.840 --> 00:04:15.840 a coroner's inquest that was held inside the house where 70 00:04:15.879 --> 00:04:19.920 the old woman's body lay, in an attempt to determine 71 00:04:19.959 --> 00:04:21.639 her state of mind at the time of the crime. 72 00:04:21.839 --> 00:04:25.240 Local doctors interviewed the murderess. She told them she spoke 73 00:04:25.319 --> 00:04:28.160 frequently with her own dead mother, and her mother had 74 00:04:28.240 --> 00:04:31.079 told her to kill the old woman. Over the next 75 00:04:31.120 --> 00:04:35.000 several days, court hearings decided her ultimate fate. A panel 76 00:04:35.040 --> 00:04:38.519 of three doctors were commissioned to determine her sanity. In 77 00:04:38.600 --> 00:04:41.759 the end, there would be no prosecution. Deemed insane, she 78 00:04:41.879 --> 00:04:44.000 was sentenced to the Michigan Home for the Dangerous and 79 00:04:44.040 --> 00:04:48.839 Criminally Insane. In Ionia, What made Martha Hainey snap and 80 00:04:48.920 --> 00:04:51.639 behead her mother in law? The book that we're featuring 81 00:04:51.680 --> 00:04:56.160 this evening is to Hell I Must Go, The True Story, 82 00:04:57.879 --> 00:05:01.439 The True story of Michigan's Lizzie with my special guest, 83 00:05:01.560 --> 00:05:05.279 journalist and author Rod Sadler. Welcome to the program, and 84 00:05:05.360 --> 00:05:08.120 thank you for agreeing to this interview. Rod Sadler. 85 00:05:09.240 --> 00:05:11.279 Oh, thank you very much for having me. I've been 86 00:05:11.319 --> 00:05:12.120 looking forward to it. 87 00:05:13.319 --> 00:05:16.720 Thank you very much. Very very interesting tale again one 88 00:05:16.720 --> 00:05:22.600 of those that bringing back the history of true crime. Amazing, 89 00:05:23.360 --> 00:05:26.399 very story. Amazing story. So let's get right to this 90 00:05:26.680 --> 00:05:30.000 and tell us a little bit about I guess first off, 91 00:05:30.079 --> 00:05:32.560 we have to describe sort of the area and the time, 92 00:05:32.680 --> 00:05:37.240 and we are talking about eighteen ninety seven. So let's 93 00:05:37.279 --> 00:05:41.079 go back to the lateeent eighteen nineties and tell us 94 00:05:41.079 --> 00:05:43.399 a little bit about Williamston and the state of the 95 00:05:43.519 --> 00:05:47.279 nation at that time before we talk about Mariah and 96 00:05:47.439 --> 00:05:51.920 her son Alfie and Martha Well. 97 00:05:52.040 --> 00:05:57.879 Williamston is actually situated in the mid Michigan area within 98 00:05:58.079 --> 00:06:01.920 Ingham County. At the time, it was just a small 99 00:06:02.079 --> 00:06:09.319 village located in the northeastern part of the county. It 100 00:06:09.600 --> 00:06:15.040 really had become kind of a hub of commerce over 101 00:06:15.560 --> 00:06:19.879 the previous thirty or forty years. The railroad had finally 102 00:06:19.920 --> 00:06:25.720 come through town. Obviously, transportation was by horse and buggy 103 00:06:25.839 --> 00:06:29.639 or by train. There was not a lot of telephones 104 00:06:29.680 --> 00:06:33.199 at the time, although I think the following year that 105 00:06:33.399 --> 00:06:36.480 there actually was a couple of them. But at the time, 106 00:06:36.560 --> 00:06:40.160 as far as I've been able to tell, communication outside 107 00:06:40.720 --> 00:06:45.879 the Walliams scenario was done with telegraph. The political climate 108 00:06:45.959 --> 00:06:50.680 at the time it was an election year the previous year, 109 00:06:51.360 --> 00:06:58.480 and JJ Railey actually was my great great grandfather, and 110 00:06:58.920 --> 00:07:02.199 he had actually run for sheriff in eighteen ninety and 111 00:07:02.279 --> 00:07:05.800 been defeated, and then ran again in eighteen ninety six 112 00:07:05.920 --> 00:07:11.399 and won under the People's Union Silver Democratic Party, which 113 00:07:11.439 --> 00:07:17.319 actually was an offshoot of the Democrat the original Democratic Party, 114 00:07:17.839 --> 00:07:20.000 so they were kind of split down the middle over 115 00:07:20.759 --> 00:07:27.560 the free silver issue in the political arena. But he 116 00:07:27.720 --> 00:07:30.879 was part of the Free Silver Party and he was 117 00:07:30.959 --> 00:07:33.480 elected in eighteen ninety six and he ended up actually 118 00:07:33.519 --> 00:07:34.720 investigating this murder. 119 00:07:37.279 --> 00:07:41.199 Interesting, now, tell us just a little bit about the 120 00:07:41.439 --> 00:07:44.959 state of the economy at that time, especially in this area, 121 00:07:45.000 --> 00:07:47.160 but just in general in the United States, and tell 122 00:07:47.240 --> 00:07:50.360 us maybe what you know. Again you've spoken to it 123 00:07:50.399 --> 00:07:52.000 a little bit, but tell us a little bit more 124 00:07:52.079 --> 00:07:55.480 for people that again, this is all new to many 125 00:07:55.560 --> 00:07:58.000 many people. What happened one hundred and twenty years ago. 126 00:07:59.439 --> 00:08:02.319 The nation had gone through a depression in the early 127 00:08:02.439 --> 00:08:07.439 eighteen nineties, and that's what actually split the Democratic Party 128 00:08:08.439 --> 00:08:11.959 in how they wanted to address the issue and the 129 00:08:12.040 --> 00:08:16.839 recovery from that depression, and one of the ways was 130 00:08:16.959 --> 00:08:21.199 to coin what they called free silver at a ratio 131 00:08:21.360 --> 00:08:26.040 of sixteen to one or I can't recall the exact number. 132 00:08:27.560 --> 00:08:32.360 And the other half of the Democratic Party, if you will, 133 00:08:33.399 --> 00:08:38.320 they wanted to just support the farmer. So it really 134 00:08:38.519 --> 00:08:43.519 was it split that party down the middle. They had 135 00:08:43.600 --> 00:08:47.320 slowly started a recovery from that depression, but I think 136 00:08:47.840 --> 00:08:50.519 overall at the time it was still it was still 137 00:08:50.639 --> 00:08:53.440 very hard times. They were slowly making their recovery. 138 00:08:56.759 --> 00:09:01.279 Now, tell us a little bit about Mariah. Where you 139 00:09:01.399 --> 00:09:04.240 haven't in the book is that she you don't talk 140 00:09:04.279 --> 00:09:09.240 too much about her married life, but she had another husband. 141 00:09:09.320 --> 00:09:11.120 She's a widow. So tell us a little bit about 142 00:09:11.200 --> 00:09:15.000 Mariah and her husband before we talk about her son, Alfie. 143 00:09:16.200 --> 00:09:20.120 Well, Mariah and her husband they had actually been some 144 00:09:20.279 --> 00:09:22.639 of the first settlers in the area. One of the 145 00:09:22.720 --> 00:09:27.960 townships near they actually this murder occurred in Wheatfield Township, 146 00:09:28.039 --> 00:09:32.440 but an adjacent township was called Locke township, and she 147 00:09:32.639 --> 00:09:35.240 had been along with her husband, some of the original 148 00:09:35.360 --> 00:09:39.600 settlers there. Her husband actually had been a Civil War 149 00:09:39.759 --> 00:09:43.519 veteran and he had survived the Civil War but ended 150 00:09:43.600 --> 00:09:47.240 up passing away in the eighteen seventies, so he had 151 00:09:47.279 --> 00:09:51.559 been gone a number of years. And they were farmers. 152 00:09:51.799 --> 00:09:54.840 They were a farming family, and she ended up moving 153 00:09:54.919 --> 00:10:01.559 in with her son and his young bride in Williamstown 154 00:10:01.720 --> 00:10:06.559 in a very small shack, if you will. They essentially 155 00:10:06.679 --> 00:10:10.039 were paupers. She was very poor, as was her son 156 00:10:10.279 --> 00:10:15.240 and his wife, and they essentially lived off the community, 157 00:10:15.279 --> 00:10:20.919 if you will. Now exactly what that means as far 158 00:10:21.000 --> 00:10:24.120 as eighteen ninety seven, maybe it was the original form 159 00:10:24.159 --> 00:10:28.480 of welfare in that maybe they just you know, begbarn 160 00:10:28.559 --> 00:10:30.879 or stole, you know. I really don't know beyond that, 161 00:10:31.120 --> 00:10:34.519 but all the newspaper articles in the research that I did, 162 00:10:34.720 --> 00:10:38.039 indicated that they were very poor and they were supported 163 00:10:38.080 --> 00:10:42.320 by the community. So they actually she had moved from 164 00:10:42.399 --> 00:10:45.519 the country into the city or right on the edge 165 00:10:45.519 --> 00:10:49.639 of the city the village with her son and his wife. 166 00:10:51.840 --> 00:10:54.039 Well, let's go back a little bit because we have 167 00:10:54.200 --> 00:10:58.200 to introduce Martha Alfie's wife. And Martha had been married 168 00:10:58.240 --> 00:11:00.759 when she was sixteen and her husband was twenty one, 169 00:11:01.159 --> 00:11:05.120 John Woodward. And there is the story that you chronicle 170 00:11:05.159 --> 00:11:08.879 about that when Alfie meets her, she has no children. 171 00:11:09.279 --> 00:11:11.720 He asked the story about it. And then you also 172 00:11:11.840 --> 00:11:17.480 include the story of Reverend Sly and his Rocky Beach 173 00:11:17.600 --> 00:11:22.679 benevolent association. So tell us about Martha and her marriage 174 00:11:22.720 --> 00:11:24.639 to John Woodward. It didn't last too long? In the 175 00:11:24.720 --> 00:11:27.720 three children, and what happened to the three children? How 176 00:11:27.759 --> 00:11:29.879 did she deal with those children? And why is it 177 00:11:30.200 --> 00:11:32.480 that she came to the marriage with Alfie and there 178 00:11:32.519 --> 00:11:33.320 were no children. 179 00:11:34.639 --> 00:11:37.480 Well, what had happened was she did mary very young 180 00:11:37.960 --> 00:11:41.320 at the age of sixteen, to a gentleman from Ohio 181 00:11:41.440 --> 00:11:46.240 by the name of John Woodard, and together she and 182 00:11:46.399 --> 00:11:52.080 John Woodard had three children. The original research that I did, 183 00:11:53.159 --> 00:11:59.200 one of the newspaper articles indicated that when her youngest 184 00:11:59.320 --> 00:12:04.159 child was just old enough to sit up, essentially, she 185 00:12:04.320 --> 00:12:08.320 disappeared with that child and on foot, and she was 186 00:12:08.360 --> 00:12:12.559 gone for several days, and when she returned, the child 187 00:12:12.720 --> 00:12:16.320 was gone. And the implication was, or the suggestion was, 188 00:12:17.120 --> 00:12:20.200 that she had put the child out of existence. And 189 00:12:20.840 --> 00:12:24.039 this was this came to light as a result of 190 00:12:24.360 --> 00:12:29.480 the murder article that the book was about. They were 191 00:12:29.559 --> 00:12:32.080 highlighting the murder, and then they mentioned the fact that 192 00:12:32.200 --> 00:12:38.320 she had married this John Woodard. John Woodard eventually abandoned her, 193 00:12:39.039 --> 00:12:42.679 I have to assume, probably because of her mental illness, 194 00:12:43.559 --> 00:12:46.919 although I don't know that for certain, but he did 195 00:12:46.960 --> 00:12:54.320 abandon her, and soon thereafter, within probably three years, she 196 00:12:55.159 --> 00:12:57.799 remarried a gentleman by the name of Alfred Haney. That 197 00:12:57.840 --> 00:13:02.440 would be Mariah's son, and he was known around town. 198 00:13:02.919 --> 00:13:07.360 His nickname was Alfie Alfy, and so throughout the book 199 00:13:07.399 --> 00:13:13.519 I refer to Alfie. I learned later in my research 200 00:13:13.600 --> 00:13:15.879 for the book that in fact, she had not put 201 00:13:16.039 --> 00:13:20.919 her youngest child out of existence. She had actually turned 202 00:13:20.960 --> 00:13:22.840 the child over to a gentleman by the name of 203 00:13:22.919 --> 00:13:28.000 Reverend Sly. Reverend Sly ran an orphanage in Lansing, which 204 00:13:28.039 --> 00:13:32.480 is Michigan State capital. He ran an orphanage for children, 205 00:13:33.320 --> 00:13:36.879 and she had turned that child over to him, and 206 00:13:37.519 --> 00:13:40.919 the child was subsequently put up for adoption. I was 207 00:13:41.039 --> 00:13:46.399 actually able to locate in my research an original ledger 208 00:13:48.120 --> 00:13:52.200 from the orphanage and actually found the original document that 209 00:13:52.360 --> 00:13:55.759 she signed over custody of that child to Reverend sly, 210 00:13:55.960 --> 00:13:57.919 So that was kind of a fascinating aspect of the 211 00:13:57.960 --> 00:14:01.360 whole story. But she did not kill her children. They 212 00:14:01.399 --> 00:14:03.480 were all turned over for adoption to the Rocky Beach 213 00:14:03.559 --> 00:14:04.600 Benevolent Association. 214 00:14:06.879 --> 00:14:09.759 What did she tell Alfred when she I alluded to 215 00:14:09.840 --> 00:14:12.320 it or I mentioned it that she didn't have any 216 00:14:12.440 --> 00:14:15.960 children until when she married Alfie. What did she tell 217 00:14:16.039 --> 00:14:18.159 Alfie about the children and her husband? 218 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:23.399 You know, I had to make some assumptions there the 219 00:14:25.720 --> 00:14:30.840 actual conversation between her and him regarding the children. I 220 00:14:31.000 --> 00:14:36.039 really don't know. The article or the research articles that 221 00:14:36.159 --> 00:14:40.240 I read mentioned nothing about Alfie's concern about the children, 222 00:14:40.320 --> 00:14:43.399 So I have to assume that that he made the 223 00:14:43.440 --> 00:14:47.039 assumption that, hey, they're not here. I never really asked 224 00:14:47.080 --> 00:14:51.799 about them. But obviously the three children, even though they 225 00:14:51.879 --> 00:14:57.240 had been turned up or turned over for adoption, in essence, 226 00:14:57.279 --> 00:15:01.720 played an essential role in the cause of Mariah Haney's murder, 227 00:15:02.919 --> 00:15:04.840 And we can discuss that in a little bit here. 228 00:15:04.960 --> 00:15:08.159 But I think that it was all over the children. 229 00:15:09.799 --> 00:15:14.399 Let's also talk about what you do describing the book too. 230 00:15:14.480 --> 00:15:16.960 Is when when you talk about they were poor, we're 231 00:15:17.039 --> 00:15:19.960 talking about a whole I mean, we have to you 232 00:15:20.080 --> 00:15:23.360 have to qualify that basically is that these were dirt poor. 233 00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:29.240 This is a dirty squalor that they're living in. And 234 00:15:29.360 --> 00:15:31.039 he doesn't work. You say that they have to live 235 00:15:31.120 --> 00:15:34.480 off the charity of the community. But at this point 236 00:15:34.639 --> 00:15:37.879 in later on, he does get some work through the community, 237 00:15:38.320 --> 00:15:41.279 some labor work, and so he is busy for a 238 00:15:41.399 --> 00:15:44.240 change where he hasn't been busy for years. He's busy. 239 00:15:44.679 --> 00:15:47.879 And you also talk about the relationship between Mariah, his 240 00:15:48.080 --> 00:15:51.639 mother and Martha, and right from the very beginning you 241 00:15:51.759 --> 00:15:54.879 say that they really didn't get along. Can you tell 242 00:15:54.960 --> 00:15:59.360 us did you find out why initially Mariah didn't like 243 00:16:00.120 --> 00:16:02.120 the daughter in law Mark? 244 00:16:02.519 --> 00:16:06.240 Well, I think that that she recognized early on that 245 00:16:06.799 --> 00:16:11.759 that Martha had some emotional issues, some mental health issues. 246 00:16:13.519 --> 00:16:20.240 Martha frequently spoke with her dead mother. The research indicates 247 00:16:20.360 --> 00:16:25.759 that she would break into religious fervor quite frequently and 248 00:16:25.879 --> 00:16:30.360 at inopportune times. It also alluded to the fact that 249 00:16:30.519 --> 00:16:36.399 she had suffered epilepsy throughout her entire life. You know, 250 00:16:36.559 --> 00:16:39.799 does that qualify as mental illness today to you and me, 251 00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:44.840 not by any means. But back then, before they probably 252 00:16:44.919 --> 00:16:49.080 knew what it was, that was probably part of it. 253 00:16:50.399 --> 00:16:55.559 And maybe maybe because of that she was treated differently 254 00:16:55.720 --> 00:16:58.879 and and her mental illness just went downhill from there. 255 00:16:58.960 --> 00:17:04.519 But Mariah did not like Martha, and Martha Uh in 256 00:17:04.720 --> 00:17:07.440 turn did not like Mariah. In fact, on the morning 257 00:17:07.480 --> 00:17:10.440 of the murder, she had made the statement to Alfie 258 00:17:10.519 --> 00:17:16.480 that that that she wanted Mariah out of the house. 259 00:17:17.599 --> 00:17:20.880 And Alfred obviously was not going to turn his mother out. 260 00:17:21.640 --> 00:17:24.359 He just kind of ignored the issue. But there was 261 00:17:24.440 --> 00:17:26.799 a there was apparently we've lost our connection. I'm going 262 00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:30.799 to try to reconnect with you here shortly. Good evening, 263 00:17:31.119 --> 00:17:31.640 Henry there. 264 00:17:32.599 --> 00:17:35.400 Yes, we've had I got dropped here in the phone 265 00:17:35.640 --> 00:17:38.880 in the in the queue here, So I'm glad we're 266 00:17:38.880 --> 00:17:41.400 both back at it, and I'll do some edity. Oh absolutely, 267 00:17:41.640 --> 00:17:48.279 that's anyway where we were last speaking about. Maybe take 268 00:17:48.319 --> 00:17:51.119 it from there. We were talking about the living conditions 269 00:17:51.319 --> 00:17:55.240 with Mariah and Martha, that they didn't like each other, 270 00:17:55.319 --> 00:17:58.480 and you noted that she probably noted that she didn't 271 00:17:58.599 --> 00:18:01.960 like Mark because of the mental illness that she had 272 00:18:02.039 --> 00:18:07.000 noted so, and I also mentioned that that Alfie for 273 00:18:07.119 --> 00:18:10.839 a change, was working steadily. So tell us about as 274 00:18:10.880 --> 00:18:12.759 you described in the book, that there was they were 275 00:18:12.839 --> 00:18:16.119 right next door to a bunch of workmen, and so 276 00:18:16.279 --> 00:18:18.480 tell us about some of the things that the workmen 277 00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:22.640 saw even weeks before. In terms of the relationship between 278 00:18:22.799 --> 00:18:24.279 Mariah and Martha. 279 00:18:25.359 --> 00:18:29.839 Well, the house was actually located next to what was 280 00:18:29.960 --> 00:18:34.880 known as the Stave Factory. They made barrels that were 281 00:18:35.000 --> 00:18:39.279 shipped all over the United States and worldwide, and it 282 00:18:39.440 --> 00:18:44.400 was a pretty big business for Williamston at the time. 283 00:18:45.119 --> 00:18:49.480 They sold several thousand per year, and the house literally 284 00:18:49.599 --> 00:18:52.319 sat right next door to that, and the workers quite 285 00:18:52.400 --> 00:18:57.480 frequently would see Martha and Mariah arguing and going at it, 286 00:18:57.559 --> 00:19:02.039 if you will, And they would also often see Martha 287 00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:07.599 outside wandering around singing religious songs. As a matter of fact, 288 00:19:07.720 --> 00:19:11.200 on the morning of the murder itself, they saw Martha 289 00:19:11.240 --> 00:19:16.920 outside singing and swinging what they described as a ladle 290 00:19:17.240 --> 00:19:19.680 over her head while she walked around the yard. So 291 00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:23.680 they were familiar that with Martha and her and her 292 00:19:23.759 --> 00:19:27.240 mental illness, and they were familiar with the animosity that 293 00:19:27.359 --> 00:19:31.480 she had towor her mother in law and vice versa. Again, 294 00:19:31.599 --> 00:19:35.720 they sat right next to the house and in fact 295 00:19:36.359 --> 00:19:39.160 played a pivotal role in the discovery of the murder. 296 00:19:42.680 --> 00:19:45.559 Now, let's backtrack a little bit, because of course we 297 00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:51.480 have to get to the day in question. Now, as 298 00:19:51.559 --> 00:19:56.720 Alfie's working, he's actually getting steady wage. One day he 299 00:19:57.440 --> 00:19:58.680 sees this Doc. 300 00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:00.559 Way. 301 00:20:01.599 --> 00:20:04.319 So tell us how this conversation comes and what is 302 00:20:04.359 --> 00:20:09.200 the impetus for for Alfie to suddenly think and consider 303 00:20:09.279 --> 00:20:11.160 that maybe he should talk to a doctor. What was 304 00:20:11.200 --> 00:20:13.960 it was a coincidence? Tell us about this incident with 305 00:20:14.160 --> 00:20:15.000 doctor Shumway. 306 00:20:16.039 --> 00:20:18.759 I think it was happenstance quite frankly. I think that 307 00:20:18.920 --> 00:20:22.640 he saw the doctor and he took he took the 308 00:20:22.720 --> 00:20:26.079 initiative to say, hey, you know, I've got some problems 309 00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:30.359 with my wife. She needs to she needs to see 310 00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:34.200 a professional, she needs to seek some professional help. And 311 00:20:35.839 --> 00:20:40.079 pardon me, the doctor of course said, you bet bring 312 00:20:40.160 --> 00:20:44.920 her down. The townsfolk knew about Martha two. They knew 313 00:20:44.960 --> 00:20:50.440 that that that she suffered from some mental instability. They 314 00:20:50.519 --> 00:20:53.480 had seen her around town too, So Doc Shumway, I'm 315 00:20:53.480 --> 00:20:57.839 sure was familiar with her also. And when when Alfred 316 00:20:57.920 --> 00:21:00.440 finally took the initiative to say, hey, can I bring 317 00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:01.079 her in to see you? 318 00:21:01.799 --> 00:21:01.920 Uh? 319 00:21:02.119 --> 00:21:04.200 He was he was all about it. You know, he 320 00:21:04.359 --> 00:21:07.160 was gonna he was gonna he was going to try 321 00:21:07.200 --> 00:21:08.480 to help Alfred out. 322 00:21:10.559 --> 00:21:14.200 Did he did? He did, Alfred, because you didn't mention it, 323 00:21:14.720 --> 00:21:16.839 but you do mention in the book. Did Alfred say 324 00:21:17.559 --> 00:21:20.000 very much about the condition of his wife and the 325 00:21:20.079 --> 00:21:23.720 behavior's wife at that short little happenstance meeting. 326 00:21:24.720 --> 00:21:27.160 You know, I don't. I don't think that he did. 327 00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:31.079 I think that he just said that that she had 328 00:21:31.160 --> 00:21:36.440 some problems. You know, there may have been he may 329 00:21:36.480 --> 00:21:39.720 have alluded to some of the problems that she had, 330 00:21:40.559 --> 00:21:44.279 but essentially he wanted to get her in the next 331 00:21:44.400 --> 00:21:49.759 day if that was possible, and of course the doctor said, sure, 332 00:21:49.839 --> 00:21:52.759 bring her in because he was he I think the 333 00:21:52.839 --> 00:21:56.400 doctor knew based on what he'd seen her of her 334 00:21:56.480 --> 00:21:59.039 around town, that that she suffered from some sort of 335 00:21:59.119 --> 00:21:59.759 mental illness. 336 00:21:59.839 --> 00:22:00.359 To so. 337 00:22:02.440 --> 00:22:05.119 The exact conversation that that was not something I was 338 00:22:05.160 --> 00:22:08.920 able to track down right just. 339 00:22:09.039 --> 00:22:14.240 For the audience as well. What was Martha's mother died? 340 00:22:14.319 --> 00:22:18.160 You say in eighteen ninety I believe, and she died 341 00:22:18.319 --> 00:22:23.519 in Ionia where there is the asylum for the criminally insane. 342 00:22:24.920 --> 00:22:28.000 So did you that's his mother died. Did her mother 343 00:22:28.119 --> 00:22:30.119 die in the asylum for the criminally insane? Or just 344 00:22:30.519 --> 00:22:31.119 in Ionia. 345 00:22:33.039 --> 00:22:36.119 Well, that's one of the mysteries of the book. I 346 00:22:36.279 --> 00:22:40.119 have to tell you that the research indicates that she 347 00:22:40.359 --> 00:22:43.920 died in Ionia. Does not say the the home for 348 00:22:44.000 --> 00:22:48.000 the dangerous and criminally insane, but I will I will 349 00:22:48.119 --> 00:22:55.440 say that Martha came from a farming family. They lived 350 00:22:56.000 --> 00:23:01.640 just south of Williamston on Lynn Road, and to go 351 00:23:01.759 --> 00:23:06.039 anywhere back in those days, you know a long distance, 352 00:23:06.799 --> 00:23:09.680 the ideal way is to do it by train if 353 00:23:09.720 --> 00:23:13.880 you're a farming community or a farmer in a small community. 354 00:23:15.160 --> 00:23:18.319 I'm wondering what they would be doing in Ionia. And so, 355 00:23:19.319 --> 00:23:25.400 based on Martha's mental illness and what I was able 356 00:23:25.480 --> 00:23:29.880 to find out later once the book was actually completed, 357 00:23:30.319 --> 00:23:34.839 I truly believe, although I don't have any proof, I 358 00:23:34.960 --> 00:23:38.680 truly believe that her mother may have been institutionalized and 359 00:23:38.839 --> 00:23:42.440 may have died at the same asylum where she ended 360 00:23:42.519 --> 00:23:46.039 up being sentenced to. Again, I don't have any proof 361 00:23:46.079 --> 00:23:49.359 of that. I did try to find some of Martha's 362 00:23:51.279 --> 00:23:55.400 mental health records, and those under Michigan law are all sealed. 363 00:23:55.680 --> 00:23:58.880 It doesn't matter how old they are. Due to the 364 00:23:58.960 --> 00:24:02.279 Patient Privacy Act. You don't have access to him. So 365 00:24:03.240 --> 00:24:06.720 I was not able to find that out, but I 366 00:24:06.799 --> 00:24:08.480 do know that her mother died in Ionia, and I 367 00:24:08.559 --> 00:24:11.000 have to assume that it was probably at the asylum. 368 00:24:13.319 --> 00:24:17.039 Now, there was some indication that Alfie had seen as well, 369 00:24:17.119 --> 00:24:20.599 and obviously Mariah had seen this as well, that she 370 00:24:20.759 --> 00:24:24.160 did have a hair trigger temper. Martha that there was 371 00:24:24.279 --> 00:24:30.480 some indication of of violence. So there was that, wasn't there. 372 00:24:32.039 --> 00:24:35.079 I think that there was, Yes, I've indicated that in 373 00:24:35.160 --> 00:24:39.759 the book, because because the two hated each other, they 374 00:24:39.839 --> 00:24:44.799 had that animosity. It had reached the boiling point. And 375 00:24:45.519 --> 00:24:54.559 I think that that there was probably that that one 376 00:24:55.640 --> 00:24:59.759 point that pushed her over the edge, and how violent 377 00:24:59.839 --> 00:25:05.279 it go before that, There was nothing to indicate any 378 00:25:05.559 --> 00:25:10.559 physical violence. I think it was strictly mental anguish or 379 00:25:10.599 --> 00:25:13.799 mental violence, if you will, the yelling, the screaming at 380 00:25:13.839 --> 00:25:15.839 each other, the hate for one another. 381 00:25:18.599 --> 00:25:22.400 Let's get to back to the conversation with the doctor. 382 00:25:22.519 --> 00:25:27.359 So this is a Thursday. Alfie says that he would 383 00:25:27.440 --> 00:25:29.240 like to bring her in, and the doctor agrees that 384 00:25:29.799 --> 00:25:32.319 the next day might be a good idea. So Thursday 385 00:25:32.440 --> 00:25:37.440 night he goes home his mother and Martha. So tell 386 00:25:37.519 --> 00:25:42.440 us how what hall about incident? Unfolds and tell us 387 00:25:42.480 --> 00:25:46.559 how he gives her this bit of information. He's not 388 00:25:46.680 --> 00:25:49.720 asking her, he's giving her their information about the doctor 389 00:25:49.799 --> 00:25:54.160 and the visit. So tell us how that conversation transpired, 390 00:25:54.359 --> 00:25:58.079 and what is her reaction and the mother's reaction. Tell 391 00:25:58.160 --> 00:25:59.480 us about what have you written in the book. 392 00:26:00.400 --> 00:26:04.799 Well, I think that that Alfred was essentially afraid to 393 00:26:05.720 --> 00:26:10.200 probably confront her about it, and so he said it 394 00:26:10.279 --> 00:26:14.480 more in passing Hey, while they're sitting there at the 395 00:26:14.519 --> 00:26:17.400 dinner table. Hey, by the way, we're going to see 396 00:26:17.440 --> 00:26:23.119 Doc Shumway tomorrow, whether you like it or not. I 397 00:26:23.319 --> 00:26:28.640 think that that Mariah, also being at the dinner table, 398 00:26:29.319 --> 00:26:33.960 feared that conversation, feared that that Martha may lose it, 399 00:26:34.759 --> 00:26:39.440 that she may become aggressive or violent. And so if 400 00:26:39.480 --> 00:26:42.519 you can imagine an old woman sitting there, you know, 401 00:26:42.759 --> 00:26:47.680